To: Walter Logeman Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9706" From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)" Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:46 -0400 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:37:11 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: healing circle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear all, I still have little time to be here, although I feel very present these days, and there is much I want to say. It would be so much easier f2f, this return -- I could walk into the room, the circle, where you all are, and walk from one to another, saying hello, sharing a smile, a hug -- meeting again those with whom I have lost touch, and meeting finally those who have touched me from my self-imposed distance. Resonance comes as it will, not as I will it, and this is what comes to me for now, an awareness of people ... And the themes of poetic expression (the poetics of self-creation?), and of community -- Walter, the word that came to me in response to your search for a word that expresses sadness and love was one you used in a recent post ... Yearning ... it makes me think of the sense in which a pilgrimage is always a search for home, for a place to belong, for shared vision and purpose and language and values and interests. It may be an obscure connection, but I feel in your words a sense of nostalgia, of a deep longing to return to a place and time that (perhaps?) never was, almost was, almost is? This place has been a bit like that for me -- an almost place -- moments of yes! and long stretches of almost ... No fault, no blame ... the times of disconnection, the fragmentation, the pulling apart is usually what I do to me, and then project here. There is a temenos that holds me, that kept me from leaving, that called me to return -- a cadence of expression, a magnificent mosaic of patterns that ebb and flow and ... almost ... cohere ... And the people, the diversity of energy and style, the storied music in the words shared -- all part of my inner life, even when I cannot find my voice, even when I freeze and flee like a wounded animal ... As for the DreamEvent, and Robert ... Both were significant experiences for me, powerful, resonant, lifechanging ... the memories remain both painful and luminous, the learnings continue to unfold, and my only regret is that I was unable to communicate through the aftermath. The firestorm is over. Robert, I hope we meet again here as friends, that we can find a way to peacefully let go of the story we wrote together. The way I respond to being hurt is not, and never was, your responsibility and I am the only one who can change that in me -- and my long absence from this place had other roots as well. If there is more we need to say to each other about this, let it be in private, please. Walter, I would like very much to hear more about your thesis -- identifying the protagonist -- I am in the (intense and frustrating) process of writing my own thesis proposal, which is rooted in the inter-disciplinary paradigm of narrative psychology, looking at metaphors of self and the way that self-narratives cohere or fragment -- and it occurs to me that we are all the protagonist of our own story (or are we?). Like you, I am interested in the power of metaphor to illuminate and transform meaning -- do you know Gareth Morgan's _Images of Organizations_? Beautiful application of the use of metaphor to conceptualize and "diagnose" organizational problems by looking at them as ... organic systems, psychic prisons, cultures, etc ... I think it would interest you. Charles, in your post on the DreamEvent (which you requested my permission to post, and thank you for that civility), you said you hoped I would respond. I did, in some inner dynamic shift that I am still unable to articulate. I love your posts, admire your intellect, remain in awe of the Game you have created, and respect your Self ... I do have some ruminations to share ... An aspect of the DreamEvent process that seems relevant to our process here is the sense of inadequacy that so many of us expressed with regard to the actual playing of the Game (a collective mood that became powerfully amplified in me, and perhaps the way in which I was most truly the "symbol-of-the-DreamEvent"). Someone here called it "performance anxiety (JimC?) and I wonder if it accounts for much of the silence that so disturbs you, Robert. The fear of being wrong, or intrusive, or inappropriate, or silly, or stupid. Too cerebral, too emotional. The fear of being judged, and found wanting. Unworthy. Which circles back to the question of belonging that spoke to me in Walter's recent posts ... do I belong? Am I welcome, or merely tolerated? Is this a place that will find resonance in my words, in my being? Is this the safety we seek? And beyond that ... is this the community I seek? Will my needs be met here, will I find sustenance for mind and heart and soul, will this place nourish or diminish me? Another related theme that comes to my mind is that of implicit expectations ... I remember suddenly feeling (again, during the volatile process of the DreamEvent) that my vision of the process in which we were engaged was not shared by all, and it left me feeling naked in a room where some were fully clothed, and averting their eyes. That has also happened here -- I think of your denigration of "soap opera", Wilbur, as opposed to "reasoned debate" (a view shared by others, I know, but you spoke it most forcefully). It is not a right-and-wrong issue, I believe -- but this is a place for experiential learning and depth psychology, and reasoned debate doesn't fit my vision of the temenos here. How much commonality is needed for community? Hoon, you intrigue and often mystify me -- I am seldom sure if I understand your message, but your words often vibrate in me nonetheless. I have a strange sense of ... awareness ... between us, as if we never quite stand face to face but sometimes connect soul to soul? Susan, dear friend indeed, it is good to meet you here again. I remember a long ago discussion where you asked if there is an attraction of soul that transcends gender, and I believe that to be true -- I thought of it during the recent posts on gender masks, and the way perception shifts when the author of words from the soul acquire the complex frames of meaning that accrue to "man" or "woman" -- implicit expectations again. I thought of you recently, wondered if you finished your paper on "Beauty and the Beast" as a study in transformation -- I was reading Charles Taylor ("The Politics of Recognition") and musing about how self and other mix and mingle and mirror and make each other up ... How is it we keep losing the connection between us? This post is becoming a long-winded rambling -- and I have so much work to do! I am still feeling most aware of people, of those I have not spoken to yet ... Anita (it is always good to see your name in my email), Is'e (are you still there?), Dolores (I am so glad you are still here!), others I knew and others I hope to know better ... Jim, Holly, Sheryl, Simon, Janell, Kataryn ... Jim the Elder -- perahps you could do a drumming for Walter's healing circle? bright blessings, Marie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:59:13 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Re: definition of poetry... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Simon, an inside-out corollary to the poem you brought? *** The Makers Who can remember back to the first poets, The greatest ones, greater even than Orpheus? No one has remembered that far back Or now considers, among the artifacts And bones and cantilevered inference The past is made of, those first and greatest poets, So lofty and disdainful of renown They left us not a name to know them by. They were the ones that in whatever tongue Worded the world, that were the first to say Star, water, stone, that said the visible And made it bring invisibles to view In wind and time and change, and in the mind Itself that minded the hitherto idiot world And spoke the speechless world and sang the towers Of the city into the astonished sky. They were the first great listeners, attuned To interval, relationship, and scale, The first to say above, beneath, beyond, Conjurers with love, death, sleep, with bread and wine, Who having uttered vanished from the world Leaving no memory but the marvelous Magical elements, the breathing shapes And stops of breath we build our Babels of. Howard Nemerov *** Marie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:01:33 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Wilbur and poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wilbur, all: Marie wrote in her long and most welcome post today: :: And the people, the diversity of energy and style, the storied :: music in the words shared -- all part of my inner life, even when :: I cannot find my voice, even when I freeze and flee like a :: wounded animal ... I think Marie's phrase "the storied music in the words shared" expresses perfectly the what and why of poetry, both as a way in which metaphor, music, wit, imagery and so forth can in fact add to the kinds of human communications we are having here, and in terms of the "art" of poetry in the world at large. Marie also, and poignantly, bears witness to how these things can touch those who are susceptible to them. I take your own remarks, Wilbur: > I asked once before.. > Just why must a person be a poet to create value with words? very seriously, in part because much of what you write in the rest of your post shows such good sense, in part because some of what you write shows you have been unduly influenced by idiot ignorant teachers of poetry -- who knew nothing of the rich fruit within it, and everything about the rind... but I may be waxing poetic again, and must restrain myself. Poets, real poets, have said many of the things you have said about language, many times over. Coleridge and Wordsworth published the *Lyrical Ballads* together in an effort to get poetry away from fussy / pretty language and into plain speech. I think it might amaze you to read the Preface, and see just how much of what you've said is echoed there. Wordsworth tells us that his attempt in the *Lyrical Ballads* is to avoid "the gaudiness and inane phraseology" of many writers, and to write in the language of those in "rural occupations" -- rather than ivory towers or high positions at court or whatever -- because "such men hourly communicate with the best objects from which the best part of language is originally derived", ie because working in nature as, say, a farmer, brings you face to face with the earthiest and most natural of things in a basic and uncluttered, non-fanciful way. He tells us: :: Accordingly, such a language, arising out of repeated experience :: and regular feelings, is a more permanent, and a far more :: philosophical language, than that which is frequently substituted :: for it by poets... But language changes, the "ear" for language changes, and by the time Ezra Pound rolled around, "Wordsworthian" plain talk sounded fussy and pretty, and Pound had to take the same revolutionary step away from fussy / pretty all over again. Pound, too, wanted to cut to basics -- an idea he expressed in his celebrated Imagist manifesto in the words "No ideas but in things" -- and he also insisted that the "new" poetry should have no unnecessary words, and should be written "in sequence of the musical phrase", ie as it would be spoken, not in some convoluted way that suited a pre-set metrical scheme. And now we have an ear for language that is so "Poundian" that new generations of poets are again listening for a new opening of the language... and once again, they turn to ordinary people whose work puts them in touch with ther physical world -- Kathleen Raine to the speech patterns of Scottish roadmenders, Jorge Luis Borges to the patterns of the gaucho, Gary Snyder tuning his rhythms to his own experience of laying stone "on steep slick rock to make a trail for horses in the mountain"... And these are not minor poets I am mentioning. What I am trying to say here is that your instincts are shared by the best of poets, but your view of what poetry is and should be are not. You are far closer to the heart of a poet than you imagine -- it is only the bastardized idea of poetry as "sweet metaphors, rhymes, rhythms" and words which "sound nice" that is getting in your way. But poetry is an art practiced by those with a superb command of language, and the emphasis on direct connection with things, simple language, weeding out unnecessary words, straightforward word order and so forth is only part of the picture -- poets also work with musicality, wit, and even scholarship at times, and often feel that part of their task is to resurrect old and subtle meanings of words which are in danger of being forgotten. But the simplicity of what is called "plain style" is an essential part of poetics, and most decent poets would be in wholehearted agreement with you on these topics. Poetry is not about "sounding nice", whatever you may have been told: it is about saying hard and subtle things with just the right emphasis, just the right tone of voice, so that the subtlety and raunchiness and romance and regret -- and the interweaving of all of them into a complex emotion -- can be transmitted faithfully, and in very few words. Take Cumming's poems for Boston prostitutes for example. There is nothing pretty about some of them, no "sounding nice" in lines like: beer nothing, the lady'll have a whiskey-sour written about, and I quote, "Kitty. a whore. Sixteen." -- and yet the very next poem in the series is written in almost Shakespearean English, and happens to "sound" very lovely indeed... Again, a great poet, mainly known for his "pretty" and more "romantic" poetry -- but that's more a problem with the types who design and market Hallmark-style anthologies -- but wonderfully gritty at times... * Having said all this, Wilbur, I don't think it means you'll necessarily come to like poetry, or that that's a bad thing. I'm not one of those who admires gymnastics, but my ballerina wife feels great kinship with gymnasts, because ballet and gymnastics have as much in common as ballet and, say, music... Poetry is one of the great human possibilities, and as Marie says, for some it is an important part of the riches of the inner life. Mathematics is another -- but if a poetry lover is left stone cold by Euler's "e to the power i pi minus one equals zero" and is in awe of Shakespeare's lines As flies to wanton boys are we to the Gods, They kill us for their sport. I don't have a problem. For myself, I find both utterances to be almost miraculously concise, and both to have far-reaching implications... I find them beautiful. Best wishes, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:17:31 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: PS to Wilbur and poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wilbur: I was reading a description of "avatars" in Neal Stephenson's "*Snow Crash* yesterday, and he describes a character who "come up with the faces" -- and facial expressions -- for avatars in his book's "Metaverse" or virtual universe. This character, Juanita, in turn describes her grandmother coming to visit and watching her for ten minutes at the dinner table, and figuring out that Juanita was pregnant (and much more, in fact "the whole situation") on the basis of minute details of facial expression -- ten minutes in which Juanita's entire conversation had consisted of the words "Pass the tortillas"... Juanita comments, in the novel: :: I don't know how my face conveyed that information, or what :: kind of internal wiring in my grandmother's mind enabled her to :: accomplish this incredible feat. To condense fact from the vapor :: of nuance. And it is *propelled by this moment* that Juanita goes on to invent the best, the most delicate and subtly nuanced of avatar faces and facial expressions. Which seems to come very close to your own work and .sigline, Wilbur, "Putting a Human Face On Technology". * I just wanted to add to my recent post that that last phrase of Juanita's, "to condense fact from the vapor of nuance" says a very great deal -- in very few words -- about how poetry works, too. Best again, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 03:36:07 PDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Lawrence Subject: Technoligical Angels In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi I have just joined this mailing list and I am very excited about what wealth of wisdom I may find here. I=92d like to quote this little piece, which best describes how I feel: =91At any given moment in any population of human beings there will be individuals who have reached different stages in the developmental sequence, each will possess a certain store of data and will consequently emit behaviours that will stimulate others who have reached a stage appropriate to respond to them.The product of interaction between such individuals will be certain typical relationships.=92 You may find it interesting to know how I found this list. The concept of =91Technological Angels=92 came to my attention and I searched the web for any related information. It was then that I stumbled upon Wilbur=92s site. We are an ecology of interacting memes and the Internet is a meme-pool, bringing group minds together through communication. tara. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:44:55 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Technoligical Angels In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:36 AM 6/2/97 PDT, you wrote: >You may find it interesting to know how I found this list. >The concept of ‘Technological Angels’ came to my >attention and I searched the web for any related >information. It was then that I stumbled upon Wilbur’s site. OK, now I have to ask you to break that down a little more for me. I don't have "Technological Angels" on my web site.. And I don't believe that I have a reference to Psyber-L on the web site either.. So how this all came together to this list is quite interesting. >We are an ecology of interacting memes and the >Internet is a meme-pool, bringing group minds together >through communication. Show me your Meme map and I'll show you mine.. Wilbur _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:08:35 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kataryn Subject: Re: Technoligical Angels Greetings Tara , ~~~ Welcome To Our list ~~~~ I was most interested in knowing the source of your quotation. I guess I was just curious to know what next paragraph would spring forth, as I wanted to discover the author's assessment of the resulting product. Product = X Interaction + Y~~~creating + Z certain typical relationships We all on the list, perhaps relate in many different modalities of form, but we all relate in a most truthful and caring manner, whenever humanly possible. Walter , our facilitator participant, and list administrator, and a most gentle cyber friend to all, has provided you with the list website. Do explore, for I delayed doing this for months ~~~~~~~ they brought much understanding. There are moments of silences, moments of poetry, moments of reflection, and then perhaps your " interreactive memes " ~~~~ Perhaps, Destiny is now moving us, even thru, Technological Angels Kataryn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I have just joined this mailing list and I am very excited > about what wealth of wisdom I may find here. I=92d like > to quote this little piece, which best describes how I feel: > > =91At any given moment in any population of human > beings there will be individuals who have reached > different stages in the developmental sequence, > each will possess a certain store of data and will > consequently emit behaviours that will stimulate > others who have reached a stage appropriate to > respond to them.The product of interaction between > such individuals will be certain typical relationships.=92 > >You may find it interesting to know how I found this list. >The concept of =91Technological Angels=92 came to my >attention and I searched the web for any related >information. It was then that I stumbled upon Wilbur=92s site. > >We are an ecology of interacting memes and the >Internet is a meme-pool, bringing group minds together >through communication. > > >tara. > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:20:25 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == Subscription confirmation== In-Reply-To: <3391c5c8.3585432@smtp.es.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote a few days ago: > I have set the list options to request a confirm response from non = posters. > This will only happen very infrequently, and not effect those who post = at all. > Non posting participants or even email collectors! are welcome, however= a > confirmation (all off list of course) will be required. I will give = people a > long time to respond before they are cut off. They will be notified, = and > invited to rejoin if they are removed. If all went well, some of you will have the automated post, to reply to. = It seems all of us got one regular posters as well, contrary to what i wrote= above. You have two weeks to respond to that, if there are any questions please = send to me personally, and i will clarify. If the confirmation works, you will = get a short message to that effect. Thanks for your cooperation. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 07:23:33 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: healing circle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marie, Marie it is good to see you here, for many reasons, right now because I appreciate this post . . . your presence with people and the ideas here is strong. > Resonance comes as it > will, not as I will it, and this is what comes to me for now, an = awareness > of people ... It has come then, I feel resonance here, and not because I willed it either, or yearned it! I think we work well together towards the possibility of it, preparing a circle, not my circle, though I still feel that one, but a circle that allows for many possibilities, while offering a containment. ~~~ > And the themes of poetic expression (the poetics of self-creation?), = and of > community -- Walter, the word that came to me in response to your = search > for a word that expresses sadness and love was one you used in a recent > post ... Yearning ... it makes me think of the sense in which a = pilgrimage > is always a search for home, for a place to belong, for shared vision = and > purpose and language and values and interests. It may be an obscure > = connection, but I feel in your words a sense of nostalgia, of a deep > = longing to return to a place and time that (perhaps?) never was, almost > was, almost is? Yearning fits well. Yes, definitely. And almost . . . what a theme word that is! > This place has been a bit like that for me -- an almost place -moments = of > yes! and long stretches of almost ... No fault, no blame ... the times= of > disconnection, the fragmentation, the pulling apart is usually what I = do to > me, and then project here. There is a temenos that holds me, that kept= me > from leaving, that called me to return -- a cadence of expression, a=20 > magnificent mosaic of patterns that ebb and flow and ... almost ... = cohere ... To break through that 'almost' phase, is that possible, or is it acceptance, resignation that allows glimpses like the moment of resonance that just arrives? I do not have a sense that you almost experienced resonance, though it may be brief. ~~~ > And the people, the diversity of energy and style, the storied music in= the > words shared -- all part of my inner life, even when I cannot find my >= voice, even when I freeze and flee like a wounded animal ... As I read your words I see myself, after accepting Kataryn's invitation to be in the circle, in it, and almost hearing Jim's drumming, and I struggle to remain so central. Hard to do, to accept . . . I am still here, and not quite ready to leave. However I hear you speaking of your wounds, and I am not thinking of anything anyone, at least anyone on this list, did. Simply that you are willing indicate your wounds . . . you Kataryn, do you think that Marie might benefit from healing here . . . Healing yes, here, I am not so sure. I realise that the 'experience' in this group of 100 is different room a rl group. In a rl group, if not all join such a circle, then that is obvious, and can be attended to. Who I see in this circle is all in my own eyes. The healing circle event within the list was an initiative from Kataryn and accepted by me, as for the rest it is mostly my 'projection'. Hence it is hard to be here, in moments of 'silence' especially, as my own voices say I am unworthy etc. I am doing well with them . . . so well I might manage to get that hat next week. Marie, without minimising actual experiences here in cyberspace, I have a sense, because you say it, that you have a strong inner predator to go after the wounded animal. I hope exposure here does not activate your freezing and fleeing. That would be my concern with inviting you to receive and accept in a circle. Kataryn may have a better perspective . . . she seems to have an experience of these things. When it comes to the circle of Psybernet as a whole, I have no hesitation welcoming your continued presence. Encouraging you to find a way to be in the community, even when there appears to be confusion about commonality. On this theme you go on to say: > Someone here called it "performance > anxiety (JimC?) and I wonder if it accounts for much of the silence = that so > disturbs you, Robert. The fear of being wrong, or intrusive, or > inappropriate, or silly, or stupid. Too cerebral, too emotional. The = fear > of being judged, and found wanting. Unworthy. Which circles back to = the > question of belonging that spoke to me in Walter's recent posts ... do = I > belong? Am I welcome, or merely tolerated? Is this a place that will = find > resonance in my words, in my being? Is this the safety we seek? And >= beyond that ... is this the community I seek? Will my needs be met = here, > will I find sustenance for mind and heart and soul, will this place = nourish > or diminish me? Are these your questions or mine? Or both, as they are mine. They are the questions that if they keep coming up, require that ability to stay in touch with our own worth. But without closing off to the exploration of what we might change and do things differently, to remain learners. > How much > commonality is needed for community? Complex question ~ as might have come through in my recent post on psychodrama I think the community aspect is important but that the purpose is more so. When you say: > this is a place for experiential learning and depth psychology I am delighted, because that sums up the *one* commonality we really need here. That we all see a different 'place' is just wonderful grist to our mill. Ah, now I see a mill! Now a healing circle, it was a theatre restaurant. You say you felt implicit expectations, but were they? Perhaps so, where do they come from? I think we can stay on track and have a community even, through exploring these depths.=20 ~~~ > Walter, I would like very much to hear more about your thesis - More later. ~~~ > bright blessings, Thanks, Walter PS -- this is the third time i have sent this -- it does not seem to get to the list! ? _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:43:43 PDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Lawrence Subject: Reply to Wilbur. Re: Technoligical Angels In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602004455.00910dc0@monmouth.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You wrote: > OK, now I have to ask you to break that down a little more for me. I = don't > have "Technological Angels" on my web site.. And I don't believe that= I > have a reference to Psyber-L on the web site either.. So how this all = came > together to this list is quite interesting. Did I say Wilbur ? I actually meant WALTER. I hope I havn't caused any unnecessary confusion. > >We are an ecology of interacting memes and the > >Internet is a meme-pool, bringing group minds together > >through communication. > > Show me your Meme map and I'll show you mine.. > > Wilbur > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:52:20 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Technological Angels In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable tara, > Did I say Wilbur ? I actually meant WALTER. I hope I havn't caused any > unnecessary confusion. I don't think we'd be too easily confused after a while . . . You did get me searching out Wilbur's site, and I saw his picture, and Tamara's, not how i imagined either of them. They look good though!=20 Technological Angels=20 I can imagine how those words, would lead to my site, they *should* & it is wonderful that they do. What do those words mean to you tara? Walter =09 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:54:42 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Technological Angels In-Reply-To: <339de559.16462995@smtp.es.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:52 AM 6/3/97 GMT, you wrote: >tara, > >> Did I say Wilbur ? I actually meant WALTER. I hope I havn't caused any >> unnecessary confusion. > >I don't think we'd be too easily confused after a while . . . > >You did get me searching out Wilbur's site, and I saw his >picture, and Tamara's, not how i imagined either of them. They >look good though! Oh no! I have that 3am in the morning picture taken with a Connetix QuikCam up there.. Wilbur _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:20:56 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: healing circle In-Reply-To: <3397c3e2.7894985@smtp.es.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, Here's my attempt to *heal* the wounds that I sense from the edges of what you say. A third of the way around the world, never having met you. Walter, you are not responsible for the world. You can't fix everything. We accept that you have tried, and think that is a noble effort. But for a little while we'll carry the world so that you can play in the circle. The world will still be here, it's OK to just be Walter. You don't have to heal us. We're here to let you heal. To help you heal. When you play you don't have to do anything but have fun, you don't have to find "greater meaning", you don't have to reach the solution, all that we want you to do is have fun! We understand that somewhere along the way you started carrying the world upon your shoulders, and you can do that again tomorrow if you want. But somewhere along the way when this became your habit, you lost little Walter and stopped being free to play. You still play, but always with rules, always in a created situation, always in a structure. You always tend to others needs, look for the "right" in everything, but lost the right inside yourself to be emotionally free. Play, Walter. Just be Walter. You've traveled from place to place looking for the part of yourself that is missing. You've traveled from group to group looking to find the "right way" to understand what is going on. The proper way to "fix" everything. Just for today, be free to play. We're here around you, wanting to see the the Walter that yearns to get out. Wondering what sort of expressions will come out of one that has seen so much of life. Hoping that you'll mostly have a good time, but realizing that you have some internal conflicts which need to be expressed, need to be remembered. We're here, we know how that feels, it's OK. Time to play, Walter. You created a safe circle for me to express my rage. It amazed me as to the depth of my feelings. I still feel the echos, and am glad that I'm seeing them as echos rather than not even knowing them.. More than a year later I'm still feeling my way through being safe, rather than the constant feeling of danger. My emotions have come to life a lot more, just because the rage doesn't dampen them anymore. We've got a safe circle for you, what do you need? Can Walter come out and play? Wilbur _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 20:16:33 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Wilbs post Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, How right Wilbur is. Every damn word. Walter, I thank you and many others here for what you have given me, but its time to get a little for yourself. About a week ago in a private email to somebody on this list, I mentioned the fact that you were-excuse the terminology, much improved. I was begging to see the real Walter, one not so stuffy, one with a sense of humour, that I was getting quite fond of - a real person. That many of the people here, (not all, but I won't name names) I saw as real people behind the keyboards, because they shared themselves with others, were not afraid to express their emotions, their experiences and as such they had ceased to be faceless addressess in an email list, but are now people with whom I had shared pain and happiness, love, romance and poetry etc etc etc I stay on this list not because of the cerebral discussions, I would be the first to admit I don't even know what a meme is, er and while I am at it, what the f**** is psychodrama. I stay here, because in a sappy kind of Californian way, I care about the people here, and because my healing of myself began in this circle, or web, or what for me was a cyberstorm in my teacup, that whirled around alot of loose leaves, however you want to describe it. I can share crap with you, that I can't easily tell anybody else in the outside world. I said Walter not so long ago, that this email list was perhaps now not what its creator intended. I would take advantage of that if I were you. It is time to play, as Wilbur so rightly says. Go do what I am best at, indulge in a good dose of childishness. I'd suggest a damn good toke on a joint, get a good case of the giggles, then the munchies, then pass out in perception enhanced bliss. Works for me about once every five years, course sometimes I get all maudlin and puke up, never can tell with that stuff. (I swear I once smoked a stock cube by mistake, whatever it was, when I threw it down the toilet it went green fizzed and removed all the limescale. If theres no dope in NZ I hear you can smoke bannana peel, I even heard you can smoke it in an apple, maybe you could try a kiwi fruit?? Failing that Walter, try running naked through the long grass shouting "I'm Alive!" Whoopee doo! I haven't actually tried this for myself, but I have a friend who swore it worked wonders for him. Now about that hat... Love Dolores _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:22:35 PDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Lawrence Subject: Reply To Kataryn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kataryn, You wrote: >I was most interested in knowing the source of your quotation. I think I read it in a book titled '' The Holographic Universe '',by: Michael Talbot. But I'm not too sure. I'll try and find out for you. >Perhaps, Destiny is now moving us, even thru, Technological Angels Please define '' Destiny is now moving us, even thru, Technological Angel= s'' What are Technological Angels? Are they emergent Archetypes? I know Jung made references to them. But I haven't been able to find any info on that. May be, you can clarify? Or may be, they are '' the extraterrestial unconscious''? Perhaps they are even ourselves in the future? I don't know. Never- the- less, It's an interesting concept. One that resonates deep within our psyche. tara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:33:32 PDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Lawrence Subject: Reply to Walter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Walter, Technological Angels are a bit of a mystery to me. The closest I've ever come to them, were through my DMT experience. But there is a theory which comes close to explainng that. . They call it :The triggering of ''The Neuro-Atomic Circuit''. This is the farthest-out that human intelligence has yet ventured Consciousness precedes the biological unit or DNA tape-loop. ''Out of body experiences,'' ''astral projection,'' contact with Alien ''entities'' or with a galactic overmind, etc..have all been reported for thousands of years. This circuit is literally neuro-atomic- infra,supra and meta-phisiologica= l -a quantum model of consciousness and/or a conscious model of quantum mechanics. IT is believed that ''atomic consciosness'' first suggested by Leary in ''The seven Tongues of God" (1962) is the explanatory link which will uni= te parapsychology and paraphysics into the first scientific empirical experimental theology in history. When the nervous system is turned on to this quantum-level circuit, space-time is obliterated. Einstein's speed-of-light barrier is transcended; in Dr. Sarfatti's metaphor, we escape "electromagnetic chauvinism." The contellignence within the quantum projection booth IS = the entire cosmic "brain," just as the micro-miniaturized DNA helix IS = the local brain guiding planetary evolution. As Lao-tse said from his own Circuit VIII perspective, "The greatest is within the smallest." I would be very interested to know your explanation of Technological Ange= ls. tara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:15:14 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: Technological Angels - Wilbur's Head MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wilbur Streett wrote: > > > Oh no! I have that 3am in the morning picture taken with a Connetix > QuikCam up there.. > > Wilbur > I looked too Wilbur - very scary. You may want to change it before your children worry they're the product of a genetic experiment gone awry. My son thought you might be Bruce Bannon, just before he does the transformation into the Hulk. Aaarggh!! HULK MAD!! Cheers ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:45:37 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: healing circle In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601123711.006ae318@qed.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marie, Marie it is good to see you here, for many reasons, right now because I appreciate this post . . . your presence with people and the ideas here = is strong. > Resonance comes as it > will, not as I will it, and this is what comes to me for now, an = awareness > of people ... It has come then, I feel resonance here, and not because I willed it = either, or yearned it! I think we work well together towards the possibility of it, preparing a circle, not my circle, though I still feel that one, but a = circle that allows for many possibilities, while offering a containment. ~~~ > And the themes of poetic expression (the poetics of self-creation?), = and of > community -- Walter, the word that came to me in response to your = search > for a word that expresses sadness and love was one you used in a recent > post ... Yearning ... it makes me think of the sense in which a = pilgrimage > is always a search for home, for a place to belong, for shared vision = and > purpose and language and values and interests. It may be an obscure > connection, but I feel in your words a sense of nostalgia, of a deep > longing to return to a place and time that (perhaps?) never was, almost > was, almost is? Yearning fits well. Yes, definitely. And almost . . . what a theme word= that is! > This place has been a bit like that for me -- an almost place -- = moments of > yes! and long stretches of almost ... No fault, no blame ... the times= of > disconnection, the fragmentation, the pulling apart is usually what I = do to > me, and then project here. There is a temenos that holds me, that kept= me > from leaving, that called me to return -- a cadence of expression, a > magnificent mosaic of patterns that ebb and flow and ... almost ... = cohere ... To break through that 'almost' phase, is that possible, or is it = acceptance, resignation that allows glimpses like the moment of resonance that just = arrives? I do not have a sense that you almost experienced resonance, though it = may be brief. ~~~ > And the people, the diversity of energy and style, the storied music in= the > words shared -- all part of my inner life, even when I cannot find my > voice, even when I freeze and flee like a wounded animal ... As I read your words I see myself, after accepting Kataryn's invitation, = in the centre of a circle, and almost hearing Jim's drumming, and I struggle to = remain so central. Hard to do, to accept . . . I am still here, and not quite = ready to leave. However I hear you speaking of your wounds, and I am not thinking= of anything anyone, at least anyone on this list, did. Simply that you are = willing indicate your wounds . . . you=20 Kataryn, do you think that Marie might benefit from healing here . . . Healing yes, here, I am not so sure. I realise that the 'experience' in = this group of 100 is different from a rl group. In a rl group, if not all = join such a circle, then that is obvious, and can be attended to. Who I see in = this circle is all in my own eyes. The healing circle event within the list = was an initiative from Kataryn and I accepted, as for the rest it is mostly my 'projection'. Actually I know that you are there, as you have invited = Jim, that is not a projection. Hence it is hard to be here, in moments of = 'silence' especially, as my own voices say I am unworthy etc. I am doing well with= them. Marie, without minimising actual experiences here in cyberspace, I have a= sense, because you say it, perhaps in other words, that you have a strong inner predator to go after the wounded animal. I hope exposure here does not = activate your freezing and fleeing. That would be my concern with inviting you to receive and accept in a circle. Kataryn may have a better perspective . = . .=20 When it comes to the circle of Psybernet as a whole, I have no hesitation welcoming your continued presence. Encouraging you to find a way to be = in the community, even when there appears to be confusion about commonality. =20 On this theme you go on to say: > Someone here called it "performance > anxiety (JimC?) and I wonder if it accounts for much of the silence = that so > disturbs you, Robert. The fear of being wrong, or intrusive, or > inappropriate, or silly, or stupid. Too cerebral, too emotional. The = fear > of being judged, and found wanting. Unworthy. Which circles back to = the > question of belonging that spoke to me in Walter's recent posts ... do = I > belong? Am I welcome, or merely tolerated? Is this a place that will = find > resonance in my words, in my being? Is this the safety we seek? And > beyond that ... is this the community I seek? Will my needs be met = here, > will I find sustenance for mind and heart and soul, will this place = nourish > or diminish me? =20 Are these your questions or mine? Or both, as they are mine. They are = the questions that if they keep coming up, require that ability to stay in = touch with our own worth. But without closing off to the exploration of what we= might change and do things differently, to remain learners. > How much > commonality is needed for community? Complex question ~ as might have come through in my recent post on = psychodrama I think the community aspect is important but that the purpose is more so. = When you say:=20 > this is a place for experiential learning and depth psychology I am delighted, because that sums up the *one* commonality we really need= here. That we all see a different 'place' is just wonderful grist to our mill. = Ah, now I see a mill! Now a healing circle, it was a theatre restaurant. You say= you felt implicit expectations, but were they? Perhaps so, where do they = come from? I think we can stay on track and have a community even, through exploring= these depths. ~~~ > Walter, I would like very much to hear more about your thesis -- More later. ~~~ > bright blessings, Thanks, Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:36:01 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: healing circle In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601123711.006ae318@qed.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marie, Marie it is good to see you here, for many reasons, right now because I appreciate this post . . . your presence with people and the ideas here = is strong. > Resonance comes as it > will, not as I will it, and this is what comes to me for now, an = awareness > of people ... It has come then, I feel resonance here, and not because I willed it = either, or yearned it! I think we work well together towards the possibility of it, preparing a circle, not my circle, though I still feel that one, but a = circle that allows for many possibilities, while offering a containment. ~~~ > And the themes of poetic expression (the poetics of self-creation?), = and of > community -- Walter, the word that came to me in response to your = search > for a word that expresses sadness and love was one you used in a recent > post ... Yearning ... it makes me think of the sense in which a = pilgrimage > is always a search for home, for a place to belong, for shared vision = and > purpose and language and values and interests. It may be an obscure=20 > connection, but I feel in your words a sense of nostalgia, of a deep=20 > longing to return to a place and time that (perhaps?) never was, almost > was, almost is? Yearning fits well. Yes, definitely. And almost . . . what a theme word= that is! > This place has been a bit like that for me -- an almost place --moments= of > yes! and long stretches of almost ... No fault, no blame ... the times= of > disconnection, the fragmentation, the pulling apart is usually what I = do to > me, and then project here. There is a temenos that holds me, that kept= me > from leaving, that called me to return -- a cadence of expression, a=20 > magnificent mosaic of patterns that ebb and flow and ... almost ... = cohere ... To break through that 'almost' phase, is that possible, or is it = acceptance, resignation that allows glimpses like the moment of resonance that just = arrives? I do not have a sense that you almost experienced resonance, though it = may be brief. ~~~ > And the people, the diversity of energy and style, the storied music in= the > words shared -- all part of my inner life, even when I cannot find my=20 > voice, even when I freeze and flee like a wounded animal ... As I read your words I see myself, after accepting Kataryn's invitation = to be in the circle, in it, and almost hearing Jim's drumming, and I struggle to = remain so central. Hard to do, to accept . . . I am still here, and not quite = ready to leave. However I hear you speaking of your wounds, and I am not thinking of anything anyone, at least anyone on= this list, did. Simply that you are willing indicate your wounds . . . you Kataryn, do you think that Marie might benefit from healing here . . . Healing yes, here, I am not so sure. I realise that the 'experience' in = this group of 100 is different room a rl group. In a rl group, if not all = join such a circle, then that is obvious, and can be attended to. Who I see in = this circle is all in my own eyes. The healing circle event within the list = was an initiative from Kataryn and accepted by me, as for the rest it is mostly = my 'projection'. Hence it is hard to be here, in moments of 'silence' = especially, as my own voices say I am unworthy etc. I am doing well with them . . . = so well I might manage to get that hat next week. Marie, without minimising actual experiences here in cyberspace, I have a= sense, because you say it, that you have a strong inner predator to go after the wounded animal. I hope exposure here does not activate your freezing and fleeing. That would be my concern with inviting you to receive and = accept in a circle. Kataryn may have a better perspective . . . she seems to have an experience of these things. When it comes to the circle of Psybernet as a whole, I have no hesitation welcoming your continued presence. Encouraging you to find a way to be = in the community, even when there appears to be confusion about commonality. On this theme you go on to say: > Someone here called it "performance > anxiety (JimC?) and I wonder if it accounts for much of the silence = that so > disturbs you, Robert. The fear of being wrong, or intrusive, or > inappropriate, or silly, or stupid. Too cerebral, too emotional. The = fear > of being judged, and found wanting. Unworthy. Which circles back to = the > question of belonging that spoke to me in Walter's recent posts ... do = I > belong? Am I welcome, or merely tolerated? Is this a place that will = find > resonance in my words, in my being? Is this the safety we seek? And=20 > beyond that ... is this the community I seek? Will my needs be met = here, > will I find sustenance for mind and heart and soul, will this place = nourish > or diminish me? Are these your questions or mine? Or both, as they are mine. They are = the questions that if they keep coming up, require that ability to stay in = touch with our own worth. But without closing off to the exploration of what we= might change and do things differently, to remain learners. > How much > commonality is needed for community? Complex question ~ as might have come through in my recent post on = psychodrama I think the community aspect is important but that the purpose is more so. = When you say: > this is a place for experiential learning and depth psychology I am delighted, because that sums up the *one* commonality we really need= here. That we all see a different 'place' is just wonderful grist to our mill. = Ah, now I see a mill! Now a healing circle, it was a theatre restaurant. You say= you felt implicit expectations, but were they? Perhaps so, where do they = come from? I think we can stay on track and have a community even, through exploring= these depths.=20 ~~~ > Walter, I would like very much to hear more about your thesis --More = later. ~~~ > bright blessings, Thanks, Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:49:07 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: Re: healing circle In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602122056.00914d60@monmouth.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Can Walter come out and play? Wilbur, what a wonderful letter you write. You capture something I know I seldom remember to do--and in so doing put a sweetly human face on this technology. Walter--it is risky to play and you have offered to us--to me--a space where it is "almost" safe to play. Why do I say "almost"--because the risk is still there, but there is an invitation to play which tempts, beckons, whispers...Laurel's recent posting on the nature of life (I'm pondering that, Laurel, and will turn the pondering into words soon) was so playful and so provoking at the same time. Pure play does feel scary--sending you that silly hat seemed so right in the moment...it just popped into my mind (although hopefully what is in my mind is a little less sketchy than that "drawing"--an e-artist I'm not), but as soon as I hit the send sequence I was assailed with fears (what if people laugh at me rather than with me, what if they think I'm a ninny, what if...all those fears that Marie identified so clearly as the fears in the Dream group). I can picture the little Walter's spirit in adult Walter's body building sand castles at the beach or sliding down a snowbank in one of those plastic sleds the kids use, spilling out in a drift, and laughing up at Kate and the ever internal but real presence of psyberians. Come on Walter, let's go play! It's sunny today. School's out. Last one there's a rotten egg. :-) Suzie (or Susan in the grown up world) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:22:46 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Neurons, et al.. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Approved-By: Dan Galvin Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 04:03:01 -0500 Reply-To: Dan Galvin Sender: Thought For The Day From: Dan Galvin Subject: Thought for Wednesday, Jun 4, 1997 To: TFTD-L@TAMU.EDU The way he lets one fact lead to another in these essays has little or nothing to do with logic, but rather reflects on the intricate, exquisite, multidimensional spiderweb of neurons, the brain, wherein one thought can excite an unpredictable cascade of ideas, images, memories and other mental associations. Wathing Theroux's brain at work is more like watching a pinball machine than an abacus. -Paul Trachtman From his review of _The Primary Colors_, by Alexander Theroux _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:30:44 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: Re: healing circle In-Reply-To: <3397c3e2.7894985@smtp.es.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear all, esp. Marie and Laurel who I have promised and owe thoughtful responses to and to Kataryn in hopes of another sort of healing circle-- How very frustrating to be wrenched away when in the past few weeks I have felt so much more involved in this group--carrying you with my in journeys that I yearn to describe to you and which I'm struggling to capture in words, but rl calls...demands...in a major way right now. My sister just called to let me know that my mother who has been ill for some time is dying. It is a 24 hour drive to get there and I don't know if I'll make it in time. Flights out of South Dakota are few and far between and the only rural service has been shut down by the FAA for safety prblems, so we must leave immediately. Prayers and healing thoughts would be most welcome. Not sure when I'll be back. Maybe I can find you from there -- that is an oddly comforting thought--as Wilbur and Laurel have pointed out recently this is a safe place to share pain. Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:16:17 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: healing circle In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602122056.00914d60@monmouth.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wilbur, and Dolores & Susan who have generously amplified Wilbur's theme, > Walter, you are not responsible for the world. =20 I never *feel* as if i am but it you are not the first to say this too me, there must be a truth in it. So I have been watching . . . and silent. I am also literally playing around on Charles's list, Magister-L, and enjoying that a lot. I must say it *feels* different to write in a list where I am a participant without being the "owner".=20 The other side of that is that I *do* have a lot of fun here! Though you might ask: What some people do for fun! This list does explore an area that delights me. In the early days I was on a list with to many psychiatrists and psychologists of a different perspective -- that was *no* fun. =20 > The > world will still be here, it's OK to just be Walter. You don't have to > heal us. =20 =46urthest thing from my mind . . .=20 > We're here to let you heal. To help you heal. When you play you > don't have to do anything but have fun, you don't have to find "greater > meaning", you don't have to reach the solution, all that we want you to= do > is have fun! Having fun, playing, on demand especially, & funnily enough when I was enjoying the process is tricky. Hey! I was & am pleased & glad to be here, it feels *healing* to me, not because any one is *doing* the healing. Being themselves is enough. =20 You know I am myself by and large, but I *am* a bit of a introspective brooding, agonising grappler! It may go back to that generational thing! Running around in the fields naked, shouting I am alive reminds me of my moods several decades ago! Not that I am old or feel old. I was at the nude beach for a week in Australia in April. Walter have a great little spot 1 hr by train from Sydney, then one hour walk, track, no road, to a secluded beach. We camped out, swam and did not wear clothes for a week! =20 I discovered in Time magazine, that they count me in as a "mature" not a "boomer". I always thought of myself as the first of the boomers. But it is the last of the matures I am afraid. I am still here absorbing this advice and encouragement. Definitely letting it in, and relating it too to the familiar "lighten up" comments people make to me. =20 It has helped me to see more clearly how narrow the path is that I trad. I see it as one between madness and denial. I think I am prone to both, thus all that you say here Wilbur fits: =20 > We understand that somewhere along the way you started carrying the = world > upon your shoulders, and you can do that again tomorrow if you want. = But > somewhere along the way when this became your habit, you lost little = Walter > and stopped being free to play. You still play, but always with rules, > always in a created situation, always in a structure. You always tend = to > others needs, look for the "right" in everything, but lost the right = inside > yourself to be emotionally free. Play, Walter. Just be Walter. >=20 > You've traveled from place to place looking for the part of yourself = that > is missing. You've traveled from group to group looking to find the = "right > way" to understand what is going on. The proper way to "fix" = everything. > Just for today, be free to play. We're here around you, wanting to see= the > the Walter that yearns to get out. Wondering what sort of expressions = will > come out of one that has seen so much of life. Hoping that you'll = mostly > have a good time, but realizing that you have some internal conflicts = which > need to be expressed, need to be remembered. We're here, we know how = that > feels, it's OK. Time to play, Walter. Internal conflicts? Can they be here? Is expressing them OK, as I am doing? Doesn't sound much like fun, but you are right . . . there is something that could do with a shift. =20 The madness on the left, is my mothers, on the right, is my father's naivete, and denial. I am born of that, in fact, to cure my mother. I understand all this well. I know too I do not have to live out this edict. =20 So where too from here . . . please don't say: Just do it! *Just* be yourself etc . . . I feel clost to something, but that seems to drive me down. ~~~ > You created a safe circle for me to express my rage. It amazed me as = to > the depth of my feelings. =20 I think I quietly attend to the process, and the damn structures well. I tend to think that there is more freedom within some structure than outside it . . . did we have that discussion here or in the DreamEvent? I see the point though, the structure is *here* the process is fine, and even when you say "we" are here Wilbur, it seems you do speak accurately for some at least, and I have no problem in trusting the integrity, authenticity, of the people I see here! Having this moment "right", now it would be good to go for it. =20 I am more into *letting stuff in* than doing anything, and I am letting this in, sometimes tailoring it a little to ease it along. =20 Breathing and sensing the people here feels good. > Can Walter come out and play? Be here, let go, feel sadness, feel inner conflict, be a participant? =20 Whatever, I have not retreated. I'll write more, (I think) soon, I think I'd like more input . . . AH . . . input, and a sense that it is OK to adjust it, to accept or reject it. =20 In short that while this may not be hilarious fun, that it is OK. It would be OK too if people chatted about me. Also it might be someone else who could explain to the "list" and especially those who are new, how this is all on topic, how it relates to the purpose. Then I could truly let go! Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 06:10:57 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Wilbs post In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970603011410.22efc3a0@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores Warm and lively words, appreciated. =20 I think you would get on well with my Kate and her friend Bonna. They are pair! I feel such a quiet old mere male in their presence, but they don't mind me either! Talk about laugh the other day: Bona had seen that in california there were divorce booths, where you could do a divorce by eftpost or some such plastic card thing. I could see the possibilities euthanasia booths with built in cremation. ( would require very careful ID check so as not to do in the wrong person) We carry on like that, till we envisaged marriage booths with options like Hindu, Christian, Elvis, or Kahil Gibran. As well as: till death do us part, trial, honour and obey etc. We had a lot of fun, does not translate well to the screen here. We laughed a lot. > I stay here, because in a sappy kind of > Californian way, I care about the people here, and because my healing = of > myself began in this circle, or web, or what for me was a cyberstorm in= my > teacup, that whirled around alot of loose leaves, however you want to > describe it. I can share crap with you, that I can't easily tell = anybody > else in the outside world. I said Walter not so long ago, that this = email > list was perhaps now not what its creator intended. I would take = advantage > of that if I were you. I think it is evolving in a way that suits me fine. And I am still hanging in that "savin' circle" though i don't know how much longer i can stand it! =20 > If > theres no dope in NZ . . . Plenty. > try running naked through the long grass shouting "I'm > Alive!" Whoopee doo! I saw Charles do something like that on his list! True! I'd quote the passage, but i don't want to get the two lists too muddled. =20 > I haven't actually tried this for myself, but I have a friend who swore= it > worked wonders for him. It worked for me too . . . in the 60s! =20 > Now about that hat... Jung on resistance: (to be read with a Swiss accent) :: There is good reason and ample justification for these resistances=20 :: and they should never, under any circumstances, be ridden over :: roughshod, or otherwise argued out of existence. Neither should=20 :: they be belittle, disparaged, or made rediculous; on the contrary=20 :: they should be taken with the utmost seriousness as a vitally = important :: defence mechinism against overpowering contents which are often very=20 :: difficult to control. The general rule should be that the weakness of= =20 :: the consciousattitude is proportional to the strength of the = resistance. :: . . . =20 :: Should there by any chance be a latent psychosis which cannot be = detected=20 :: before hand, this cautious procedure may prevent the devastating = invasion :: of the unconscious, or at least catch it in time. par 381 CW vol 16 =20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:14:32 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: the masculine (1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mogens, Jim, Dana, and all, Gentlemen, warriors, sons, fathers, lovers, princes, and kings ... today the "masculine" is in trouble ... today the images are ... dirty old men, animals, pigs, buffoons. What respect is given to our fathers in society as a whole? I see movies such as GRUMPY OLD MEN, televison programs such as COSBY and TOOLTIME, as contributing to the undervaluation of men. The positive models of "masculine" have us as gentle, soft, compassionate, empathic role models ever ready to support the feminine right to power. We come out looking like gentle, weak-willed supporting actors ashamed of the brutality of our gender, we come out "soft". Robert Bly speaks of the growing generalization that when in positions of power, males are or will be oppressive and corrupt. He speaks of the loss of positive male energy within society, the loss of images which lead males forward to become positively charged beings. We distrust men in power. Fathers are men in power. Stories of abuse abound about these fathers. Fathers are remote beings who disappear into unknown places and leave their sons (and daughters) wrapped up in the world of feminine. The fathers return spent and often angry at their isolation, at their lack of personal power, at the meaninglessness of their work. The sons and daughters are warned to avoid this anger, to distrust the father. And the sons? Ourselves and our male children? What do they inherit but the guilt of being male, the guilt that they too are going to be irrelevant, angry, abusive, remote. And so they become soft denying their masculine. The become/ we become disabled. ... this is a start ... perhaps a bit negative but it is real for much of the world ... I worry about this ... I have a sone and a grandson ... what do I, what can I do to help create a positive masculine metaphor that will allow themselves to move to adulthood with dignity of their "full" being? ... I pass the voicing to you my friends. Robert _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:16:56 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: metaphor [Re: healing circle] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marie, > Walter, I would like very much to hear more about your thesis -- > identifying the protagonist -- I am in the (intense and frustrating) > process of writing my own thesis proposal, which is rooted in the > inter-disciplinary paradigm of narrative psychology, looking at = metaphors > of self and the way that self-narratives cohere or fragment -- and it > occurs to me that we are all the protagonist of our own story (or are = we?). Is that narrative therapy as we have come to know that term here in NZ, a derivative from Family therapy, linked into the work of Gregory Bateson? =20 I am thinking in terms of the protagonist of the *group*. I agree we are all protagonists of our own story. My thesis is about seeing the pattern of the gp dynamic, and then relating that to the similar dynamics of the individuals in the group. My sense is then that one person will be most able to carry the story of the gp, as it coincides with the individual story. =20 Others in the gp may also resonate with the story, but with minor characters as it were, and thus can benefit from plying a part, rather than being the protagonist. > Like you, I am interested in the power of metaphor to illuminate and > transform meaning=20 Yes. There is the pattern of the dynamic which may well be expressed best as a metaphor, or a story or a myth. I recall in a gp, where we worked on our work places, and were invited to cup our hands, and "see' the work place there. People saw such things as tornados, beehives, WW1, Die Harder etc. We were then invited to see how that metaphor fitted for our family of origin -- usually very well! Learning to see the self similarity through the macro to the micro levels in the gp and expressing that in metaphor or in a dramatic form, underlies my thesis. > -- do you know Gareth Morgan's _Images of Organizations_? > Beautiful application of the use of metaphor to conceptualize and > "diagnose" organizational problems by looking at them as ... organic > systems, psychic prisons, cultures, etc ... I think it would interest = you. Sounds like it! Have ordered it. Thanks for your interest. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:08:16 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Play, Childhood, and the Circle.. In-Reply-To: <33a7f247.55657989@smtp.es.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, As you stand in the healing circle, having been asked to come out and play, I see you respond with: :: There is good reason and ample justification for these resistances :: and they should never, under any circumstances, be ridden over :: roughshod, or otherwise argued out of existence. Neither should :: they be belittle, disparaged, or made rediculous; on the contrary :: they should be taken with the utmost seriousness as a vitally important :: defence mechinism against overpowering contents which are often very :: difficult to control. The general rule should be that the weakness of :: the consciousattitude is proportional to the strength of the resistance. :: . . . :: Should there by any chance be a latent psychosis which cannot be detected :: before hand, this cautious procedure may prevent the devastating invasion :: of the unconscious, or at least catch it in time. You are here in the healing circle. We know that the contents may be overpowering, but we also have seen that you were envious of your client that was able to go into himself and reach his hidden trauma. You aren't crazy like your mother, nor do I see you as indifferent like your father. I'm not trying to overrun your mechanisms, just create a small bit of safety for you to get a chance to get what you want. I didn't start the circle, and we're not forcing you to stay in the middle. You've spent a lifetime healing others. How about a little for yourself? As Charles said, poetry is about capturing the child, getting back to the state before the world made total sense. You have been dancing along the edges in many ways. Even the list is a part of that search. You have been searching for the child. (As we all do.) We are here around you to support you in getting back to the childstate, even if only for a minute, only from across the Internet. We want you to have fun! I've spent the last several days wondering how to say that we know where you are and help support your search for a the return of innocence.. Watching the clouds yesterday I remembered how I had once again been stuck with my infant daughter, having to be the nanny for yet another day. Totally frustrated, I couldn't stay in the house bored out of my mind, and the walk with the stoller had already been done. Knowing that a walk to nowhere (knowwhere?) would at least make the time pass, even if it didn't help with the feelings, I went outside only with the faith that somewhere under the open sky was a place where I wouldn't be the nanny and it would be my daughter and I. I carried her around for a while, describing in baby talk all of the things that I saw. Feeling the fool. While I discovered the pond only 300 feet from my house that I didn't know existed, (I've lived here for 2 years) and I saw the birds and the trees, none of this was something that I felt that we could share. Julia doesn't know words, she doesn't know life. She couldn't share this joy with me. Sadly I walked back to my house.. I walked around outside with Julia in my yard, and finally right by the sewer I saw a dandelion. I grabbed the dandelion and tore it out by its roots, and gave it to Julia. She held it in her hand, more by reflex than awareness. She looked at it, fascinated. I assume that it was the edges that exicited her eyes and frontal lobes, not that she knew it was a flower.. I got her to wave her hand, and tickled her under her chin with the yellow flower with more petals than I could count. While it wasn't the most beautiful of flowers, it was enough to engage her interest. I thought about how this was the first time that she held a flower, how she would hold flowers throughout her life. And suddenly I wanted to give her more flowers. At that point I told Julia, "Let's go on a dandelion hunt", expecting to have to run around, looking everywhere. But the next dandelion was only a few feet away, totally ignored before the hunt began. And a few feet beyound that, another dandelion. I looked out and realized that my entire yard was full of dandelions. Thousands of them. Unnoticed until my infant daughter was holding one. Unnoticed until I allowed the child in me to return for the dandelion hunt. During the hunt I remembered the stories my mother told of collecting flowers in the fields during her childhood before the war came in and and took her childhood away from her. I remembered collecting wildflowers in a field when I was less than 5 and realizing that maybe my mother could recapture her happy childhood, if only for a moment, if I brought those flowers home to her. When I walked in with the flowers at first my mother was ackward, this was the first thing that I had done without being prompted. Totally away from her day to day life. My mother smiled and then cried that day. While I carried around my infant daughter, looking at the measly dandelions, I realized that I didn't even know that they had been there, didn't remember my own childhood, and the stories of my mothers, until I had given enough time to see the world a little from my daughters perspective. Until I had allowed the child to come out and play. I realized that I was carrying around the weight of my mothers life, that I had lost the child within me. I didn't notice the dandelions. Then I realized that I was on the dandelion hunt, and I could recapture the child. I smiled and cried on the dandelion hunt. Do you see the dandelions at your feet, Walter? Wilbur _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 18:12:44 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Moonasylum Subject: Re: healing circle In-Reply-To: <3396ba3c.5424224@smtp.es.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:36 AM 6/3/97 GMT, you wrote: >Marie, > W>Marie it is good to see you here, for many reasons, right now because I W>appreciate this post . . . your presence with people and the ideas here is W>strong. It is good to be here, for many reasons -- primarily, because it has been so impossible for me to find words before. Breaking through that barrier in me was liberating, although scary. M>> Resonance comes as it M>> will, not as I will it, and this is what comes to me for now, an awareness M>> of people ... > W>It has come then, I feel resonance here, and not because I willed it either, W>OR yearned it! I think we work well together towards the possibility of it, W>preparing a circle, not my circle, though I still feel that one, but a circle W>that allows for many possibilities, while offering a containment. I like this image -- a circle of possibility and containment ... W>Yearning fits well. Yes, definitely. And almost . . . what a theme word W>that is! > M>> This place has been a bit like that for me -- an almost place --moments of M>> yes! and long stretches of almost ... > W>To break through that 'almost' phase, is that possible, or is it acceptance, W>resignation that allows glimpses like the moment of resonance that just W>arrives? W>I do not have a sense that you almost experienced resonance, though it may be W>brief. No, the feeling of resonance was strong, not almost -- perhaps the 'almost' phase is the edge of chaos that keeps the creative tension alive? Perhaps we learn most from the words and responses that do not come? From our projections into those silences? Learn what we want from each other, what we fear? It has certainly been a powerful source of learning for me -- in part, this time, for the first time, because I felt *disappointed* that there was so little response (of any kind) to what I wrote (not to discount the welcome of Charles, and yours, and Susan -- who is much in my thoughts these days, as she travels toward the painful ending of a story in her life, out of reach from any words of ours that might comfort her) -- and I did not feel that there was something wrong with ME for a change. Nor with anyone else -- I was just disappointed -- I find I no longer assume what silence means, although I still wonder. on the healing circle ... W>Healing yes, here, I am not so sure. I realise that the 'experience' in this W>group of 100 is different room a rl group. In a rl group, if not all join W>such a circle, then that is obvious, and can be attended to. Who I see in W>this circle is all in my own eyes. The healing circle event within the list W>was an initiative from Kataryn and accepted by me, as for the rest it is W>mostly my 'projection'. Hence it is hard to be here, in moments of 'silence' Wespecially, as my own voices say I am unworthy etc. I am doing well with them W>. . . so well I might manage to get that hat next week. I belong to a Healing Circle, for several years now -- a wordless circle of meditation and immersion in the flow of Reiki energy -- which I do not understand, although I have felt it. I do not feel it here -- but then it is a circle evoked for you, not me, and that seems right, although I understand your desire not to be alone in the circle! Yet, my sense is that, for you, healing means to feel that you are with companions on a shared journey, that being apart in a circle -- even a healing circle -- even if you receive the affirmation of caring and holding and support -- still means being apart, not connected, which is the deeper need? The deepest yearning? And that your role as facilitator here sometimes creates that same sense of disconnection? W>Marie, without minimising actual experiences here in cyberspace, I have a W>sense, because you say it, that you have a strong inner predator to go after W>the wounded animal. I hope exposure here does not activate your freezing and W>fleeing. That would be my concern with inviting you to receive and accept in W>a circle. Kataryn may have a better perspective . . . she seems to have an W>experience of these things. I do have a strong inner predator, yes, and there is a wounded animal within me -- but I do not feel drawn to ask for healing here (although the insight or feedback of others is always welcome). I do not know what might activate my fleeing and freezing -- but I do know that I am not as vulnerable as I was a year ago. I did not know the power of this place to open the doors of the psyche and release the caged angels and demons -- and I was in an empty space of life that left me too much time to dwell within -- it is different now. W>When it comes to the circle of Psybernet as a whole, I have no hesitation W>welcoming your continued presence. Encouraging you to find a way to be in W>the community, even when there appears to be confusion about commonality. Thank you. I am trying. W>On this theme you go on to say: > M>> Someone here called it "performance M>> anxiety (JimC?) and I wonder if it accounts for much of the silence that so M>> disturbs you, Robert. The fear of being wrong, or intrusive, or M>> inappropriate, or silly, or stupid. Too cerebral, too emotional. The fear M>> of being judged, and found wanting. Unworthy. Which circles back to the M>> question of belonging that spoke to me in Walter's recent posts ... do I M>> belong? Am I welcome, or merely tolerated? Is this a place that will find M>> resonance in my words, in my being? Is this the safety we seek? And M>> beyond that ... is this the community I seek? Will my needs be met here, M>> will I find sustenance for mind and heart and soul, will this place nourish M>> or diminish me? > W>Are these your questions or mine? Or both, as they are mine. They are the W>questions that if they keep coming up, require that ability to stay in touch W>with our own worth. But without closing off to the exploration of what we W>might change and do things differently, to remain learners. They are my questions -- and my sense that they were yours -- and my wondering if others ask them, too. It is a delicate balance to seek -- to accept the worth of self, and still remain open to feedback that indicates a need to change, to grow. I hope I can do that, remain a learner -- without listening to the inner predator that condemns me as defective for not already having learned whatever lessons come my way. M>> How much commonality is needed for community? > W>Complex question ~ as might have come through in my recent post on Wpsychodrama I W>think the community aspect is important but that the purpose is more so. W>When you say: > M>> this is a place for experiential learning and depth psychology > W>I am delighted, because that sums up the *one* commonality we really need W>here. That we all see a different 'place' is just wonderful grist to our W>mill. Ah, now I see a mill! Now a healing circle, it was a theatre W>restaurant. You say you W>felt implicit expectations, but were they? Perhaps so, where do they come W>from? I think we can stay on track and have a community even, through W>exploring these depths. I hope so. Marie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:31:29 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Phil Houtz Subject: Re: Play, Childhood, and the Circle.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Wilbur wrote: >While I carried around my infant daughter, looking at the measly >dandelions, I realized that I didn't even know that they had been there, >didn't remember my own childhood, and the stories of my mothers, until I >had given enough time to see the world a little from my daughters >perspective. I'm finding that parenting is mainly a game of "follow the leader." Although, when I'm the leader, it's a lot more like "blindman's bluff." ===================== Are you conscious? Visit the Mining Company's *Popular Psychology* site and find out more about the amazing world of consciousness. http://popularpsych.miningco.com -Phil _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 06:10:51 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: metaphor [Re: healing circle] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601123711.006ae318@qed.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marie, > Walter, I would like very much to hear more about your thesis -- > identifying the protagonist -- I am in the (intense and frustrating) > process of writing my own thesis proposal, which is rooted in the > inter-disciplinary paradigm of narrative psychology, looking at = metaphors > of self and the way that self-narratives cohere or fragment -- and it > occurs to me that we are all the protagonist of our own story (or are = we?). Is that narrative therapy as we have come to know that term here in NZ, a derivative from Family therapy, linked into the work of Gregory Bateson? =20 I am thinking in terms of the protagonist of the *group*. I agree we are all protagonists of our own story. My thesis is about seeing the pattern of the gp dynamic, and then relating that to the similar dynamics of the individuals in the group. My sense is then that one person will be most able to carry the story of the gp, as it coincides with the individual story. =20 Others in the gp may also resonate with the story, but with minor characters as it were, and thus can benefit from plying a part, rather than being the protagonist. > Like you, I am interested in the power of metaphor to illuminate and > transform meaning=20 Yes. There is the pattern of the dynamic which may well be expressed best as a metaphor, or a story or a myth. I recall in a gp, where we worked on our work places, and were invited to cup our hands, and "see' the work place there. People saw such things as tornados, beehives, WW1, Die Harder etc. We were then invited to see how that metaphor fitted for our family of origin -- usually very well! Learning to see the self similarity through the macro to the micro levels in the gp and expressing that in metaphor or in a dramatic form, underlies my thesis. > -- do you know Gareth Morgan's _Images of Organizations_? > Beautiful application of the use of metaphor to conceptualize and > "diagnose" organizational problems by looking at them as ... organic > systems, psychic prisons, cultures, etc ... I think it would interest = you. Sounds like it! Have ordered it. Thanks for your interest. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:25:57 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: = Mail Flow Question == MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, I have recently sent some posts the list, and they do not arrive. I do not get them, nor are they in the archives. The strange thing is, that the very next post, perhaps sent a few minutes later will arrive without a hitch. =20 Wanting to ensure that my wayward post arrives, i send it again. On the last occasion it then arrived immediatly. The trouble is that the wayward one has now also arrived, 24 hours or so late! I apologise for the double up. =20 Are others having this problem? Anyone have any ideas about this. =20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:50:39 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Phil Houtz Subject: Re: metaphor [Re: healing circle] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter wrote: >I am thinking in terms of the protagonist of the *group*. I >agree we are all protagonists of our own story. My thesis is >about seeing the pattern of the gp dynamic, and then relating >that to the similar dynamics of the individuals in the group. My >sense is then that one person will be most able to carry the >story of the gp, as it coincides with the individual story. I've seen this happen a number of times--an individual (and this role can shift within the group) shares a personal story that is adopted by the whole group. As Epston & White point out, there are (what are they called?), "unintended consequences" I believe...content which falls outside the dominant story. Sometimes a narrative is performed in a group and includes these "outside" events, bringing them into a new story in which each member sees herself/himself as protagonist. It's a wonderful thing when it happens. I suspect it doesn't happen more often, because so few of us know *how* to tell our own stories. ===================== Are you conscious? Visit the Mining Company's *Popular Psychology* site and find out more about the amazing world of consciousness. http://popularpsych.miningco.com -Phil _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:30:07 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Play, Childhood, and the Circle.. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970608130816.00969220@monmouth.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wilbur=20 I love hearing your story, Wilbur about you and Julia. And your interest in me. =20 I am finding a few things are . . . how to put it? giving me need to state where i am at, where i think i am not being seen. No blame. =20 > As you stand in the healing circle, having been asked to come out and = play, > I see you respond with: >=20 > :: There is good reason and ample justification for these resistances > :: and they should never, under any circumstances, be ridden over > ::=20 etc. Not quite Wilbur! There are a couple of subtle differences! =20 1. That particular resistance was to getting the hat! Which i am actually not resistant about but which there are a couple of obstacles to me geting right now . . . minor ones . . .=20 In other words i was joking. Note that i wanted you to read Jung in a swiss accent, which makes the passage a ludricous response to not buying a hat . . . try it! What is stopping you from buying anything right now? =20 2. In other words I *am* playing! =20 So that is bit frustrating. Having, for example, to explain my joke (I was hoping someone else might!) I might have strange way of doing it -- but that *is* me. =46ar from being resistant to being in the centre of this circle I am giving it a good shot. Katryn was so right about me needing some sort of circle. This is especially true since Stuart's illness & death. I am creating new f2f circles for myself in rl. Exploring options. I dont actually expect that from this list, nor do I ask for it, but as it was so perceptively suggested, offered, i am hanging in with it. And getting something out of it. I am having to work hard to do that though, in the midst of what seems a lot of silence. Never the less Wilbur you are onto something. I am not resisting anything you say here about my processes. I appreciate your reflections, and insistance. =20 > Do you see the dandelions at your feet, Walter? I think I do. I think I *see* a lot, and with that feel somewhat isolated at times. Hence my note here about not being seen here in this moment. It is a *note* and not exactly a gripe. I think you see me quite well Wilbur. I am letting in what feels right. To Susan, Oh, another thought. I have Susan's gift of the hat. A virtual hat for a virtual circle. =20 I am aware that with your mothers illness and possible death you may not be here. You have also said that it may be of comfort to have this list here, on your return. Welcome back -- as you must be if you are reading this. I hope all went as well as it could, and you have honoured the occasion. Walter =20 Thanks, Walter =20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:44:57 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: metaphor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil, > I've seen this happen a number of times--an individual (and this role = can > shift within the group) shares a personal story that is adopted by the > whole group. Let me give an example of a supervision session with a group of counsellors. A supervision gp has been meeting regularly for one year. Three new members join the group. As part of a more general introduction I gave a brief intro to the nature and purpose of supervision. Older gp member contributes on how they had formerly believed that sup was about being told how to do the wk, now they see it as a discovery process. Another says they still value being told new ways to wk. The first person raised a case where the client had rejected the counsellor.=20 Another person to raise a situation for supervision was a man who felt the temptation to offer solutions to a problem one of his clients had with parenting his son. He described the way the client had set boundaries with the teen-ager, but to no avail. he would bring home a group of friends, even when specific arrangements had been made not to. "I have tried everything, I don't know what to do". =20 Others all contribute, I suggest we focus on the case with the helpless father. We enact in role play the "moment" where the counsellor is tempted to offer solutions. All group members have a turn modelling a responding to that plea from the father: "I don't know what to do." They *all* offer options and solutions! In role play the father rejects them all. The person whose case it was role played the father, and he had one moment of relief in the counselling offered: "When someone said i was anxious." =20 I chose at that point to also have a go at modelling, aknowledging that i was taking the lead from that success to reflect feelings to the nth degree. Before long the "client" was responding "I am afraid my son will leave home. I never intended to be a solo parent. Yes, I love my son very much." The closure of the session was the role test for the counsellor. In a final enactment, using plenty of reflection at the feeling level, the "client" was responding: "I need more time for myself, I am trying to juggle to many things all at once." ~~~ It is obvious to me how that "case of the helpless father" carried many themes of the group. In the work on the case the group's themes were also attended to in a surrogate manner. Probably some aspects remain unattended to as well. > As Epston & White point out, there are (what are they called?), = "unintended > consequences" I believe...content which falls outside the dominant = story. > Sometimes a narrative is performed in a group and includes these = "outside" > events, bringing them into a new story in which each member sees > herself/himself as protagonist. It's a wonderful thing when it happens. I am not sure what you mean here exactly. Perhaps it fits in with something shared in the final moment of this session: "I am afraid to go deeper with clients for fear of opening up stuff i can't handle." =20 > I suspect it doesn't happen more often, because so few of us know *how*= to > tell our own stories. Yep. This is a story about a story about a story really, each one fractally intertwined with the story here and now in Psyber-l (though I cant see that as yet!) An individual story can be a metaphor for the group. Phil, will look soon: > http://popularpsych.miningco.com Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:28:25 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Phil Houtz Subject: Re: metaphor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, >> As Epston & White point out, there are (what are they called?), "unintended >> consequences" I believe...content which falls outside the dominant story. >> Sometimes a narrative is performed in a group and includes these "outside" >> events, bringing them into a new story in which each member sees >> herself/himself as protagonist. It's a wonderful thing when it happens. >I am not sure what you mean here exactly. The term I was searching for was "unique occurrences"--events in a person's life which aren't incorporated in any personal narrative. Part of narrative therapy involves discovering these events and incorporating them into a new, therapeutic narrative. In the case you mentioned, the dominant narrative was the father's "my son disobeys me by bringing friends over." But there may be unique occurrences where bringing friends over was not disobedience. These can be added to the son's narrative, giving everyone new insight and new tools for working through the problem. >Perhaps it fits in >with something shared in the final moment of this session: "I am >afraid to go deeper with clients for fear of opening up stuff i >can't handle." From my layman's pov, sounds more like the metaphor was bringing up transference/countertransference issues. I've read that listening to one's own countertransference can lead into the core of the client's issues. These can get so wiggly...sounds like a group metaphor experience is a good way to get a "handhold" on them. ===================== Is the Internet driving you nuts? Visit the Mining Company's *Popular Psychology* site and find peace of mind. http://popularpsych.miningco.com -Phil _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:18:07 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: metaphor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil, > From my layman's pov, sounds more like the metaphor was bringing up > transference/countertransference issues. I've read that listening to = one's > own countertransference can lead into the core of the client's issues. > These can get so wiggly...sounds like a group metaphor experience is a = good > way to get a "handhold" on them. It is a good way of feeling ones way into a gp life. The transference/countertransference could be reflected on at many levels All of the following people may feel the fear of going deeper! : the son the father (with the son, but also with the counsellor) The counsellors with the father (with the supervision gp) Me, in the sup gp. Me here, having for unconscious reasons raised it here. Phil! in picking up on it. Of course it is a universal phenomena, but there are millions of universal phenomena -- & we are here with this one. Isnt it different to actually experientially entertain these things in the here & now. I find it hard work. I enjoy it though -- it is a form of playfulness to "entertain", entertainment Ah. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 02:06:33 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: healing circle In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970608181244.006ad224@qed.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marie, =20 > It is good to be here, for many reasons -- primarily, because it has = been > so impossible for me to find words before. Breaking through that = barrier > in me was liberating, although scary. I enjoyed your response to me . . . have let it mature here as it were. Just posted the note to Phil re Metaphor and the "fear of going deeper as it may bring up stuff we cant handle. Now I see your words here, and wonder if this applies here for you? Not only for you, but for me, and others? I don't actually *feel* that fear right now. But i entertain its possibility. =20 I do have feelings . . . about still being in this "healing circle": annoyed, frustrated, perhaps there is fear there, no not really, i have gone as deep as i intend to go.=20 That makes it clear! I'll step out of it. Thanks to all who have initiated and responded to me there. I will say some more later.=20 Here we were speaking about Psyber-L: > I like this image -- a circle of possibility and containment ... I like it too. What of the actual? I . . . am frustrated with this project . . . AND I love it, the *actuality* of it. I am a J in the MB scale, so it is hard to simply accept anything as it is. I always look beyond for the possible. I remind myself that what *is* here is ok! =20 > No, the feeling of resonance was strong, not almost -- perhaps the = 'almost' > phase is the edge of chaos that keeps the creative tension alive? = Perhaps > we learn most from the words and responses that do not come? From our > projections into those silences? =20 Yes. I experienced silence form the group as i was in that circle -- it is a relief to be out of it. I also experienced what came in and appreciated it as best i could. I particularly experienced silence from Kataryn, as an initiator. I also felt that as I "let go" and i did, that there was no-one actually thinking about the list as a whole gp. I noticed things happening, what looked like a stray post from Robert. Susan's situation with her mother. I was also aware that you had felt silence here . . . > Learn what we want from each other, what > we fear? It has certainly been a powerful source of learning for me --= in > part, this time, for the first time, because I felt *disappointed* that > there was so little response (of any kind) to what I wrote (not to = discount > the welcome of Charles, and yours, and Susan -- who is much in my = thoughts > these days, as she travels toward the painful ending of a story in her > life, out of reach from any words of ours that might comfort her) -- = and I > did not feel that there was something wrong with ME for a change. Nor = with > anyone else -- I was just disappointed -- I find I no longer assume = what > silence means, although I still wonder. I share your disappointment, also your wish not to discount, and also the notion that all i am looking at here is my own projection into the silence . . . i do not feel blame . . . hence i do not blame myself . . . I do feel abandonment (mild though it is) . . . do i abandon myself? > I belong to a Healing Circle, for several years now -- a wordless = circle of > meditation and immersion in the flow of Reiki energy -- which I do not > understand, although I have felt it. I do not feel it here -- but then= it > is a circle evoked for you, not me, and that seems right, although I > understand your desire not to be alone in the circle! Yet, my sense is > that, for you, healing means to feel that you are with companions on a > shared journey, that being apart in a circle -- even a healing circle = -- > even if you receive the affirmation of caring and holding and support = -- > still means being apart, not connected, which is the deeper need? The > deepest yearning? And that your role as facilitator here sometimes = creates > that same sense of disconnection? You hit the nail on the head here. I missed it the first time i read it. I am more comfortable if i do not feel "apart" separate from the circle. Phew. Yet that separation comes by being the facilitator, and also by being a "healee" in a healing circle. =20 You wrote > I do not feel drawn to ask for healing here (although the > insight or feedback of others is always welcome). =20 I understand that. I don't think i asked. I found the offer synchronistically apt. I went with it. That was ok. I think it might be too much to go from "facilitator" to that child like space i was invited into. I *think* (project, that it does actually create a sense of abandonment in the gp too, if the facilitator goes too far in that direction. I know this from rl gps, where I wld not have responded to Kataryn the way i did. I think: This is not a rl event, and hence we need to explore the differences. Also this is not a "group" it is an open "list". I might be the facilitator, but one who explores the limits of being a participant as well. In all honesty i think i have learnt the limitation. I went to Charles's list explored the feeling of being a participant there, feels good! I am thinking now: Perhaps=20 ~~~ Kataryn needs a Healing Circle ~~~ What has come out of it for me is that i need a rl gp of peers that i connect with and belong to, where i am neither the facilitator, nor a "client". Something perhaps like your Reike group Marie. Though i think mine would be more of a jungian dream type thing. I want it to come to me! I am sick of making things happen! =20 > I do not know what might > activate my fleeing and freezing -- but I do know that I am not as > vulnerable as I was a year ago. I did not know the power of this place= to > open the doors of the psyche and release the caged angels and demons --= and > I was in an empty space of life that left me too much time to dwell = within > -- it is different now. I hope you are able to stay here and weather its storms, if there are any, or its calms! Also to ponder and live with the questions we ask below which i will leave appended, as they are still on my mind. Good to connect here with you, Walter =20 > M>> Is this the safety we seek? And > M>> beyond that ... is this the community I seek? Will my needs be met= here, > M>> will I find sustenance for mind and heart and soul, will this place > M>> nourish or diminish me? > W>Are these your questions or mine? Or both, as they are mine. They = are the > W>questions that if they keep coming up, require that ability to stay = in touch > W>with our own worth. But without closing off to the exploration of = what we > W>might change and do things differently, to remain learners. >=20 > They are my questions -- and my sense that they were yours -- and my > wondering if others ask them, too. It is a delicate balance to seek --= to > accept the worth of self, and still remain open to feedback that = indicates > a need to change, to grow. I hope I can do that, remain a learner -- > without listening to the inner predator that condemns me as defective = for > not already having learned whatever lessons come my way. >=20 > M>> How much commonality is needed for community? > > > W>Complex question ~ as might have come through in my recent post on > Wpsychodrama I > W>think the community aspect is important but that the purpose is more = so. > W>When you say: > > > M>> this is a place for experiential learning and depth psychology > > > W>I am delighted, because that sums up the *one* commonality we really = need > W>here. That we all see a different 'place' is just wonderful grist to = our > W>mill. Ah, now I see a mill! Now a healing circle, it was a theatre > W>restaurant. You say you > W>felt implicit expectations, but were they? Perhaps so, where do they= come > W>from? I think we can stay on track and have a community even, through > W>exploring these depths. >=20 > I hope so. >=20 > Marie _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:52:10 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: metaphor In-Reply-To: <33a3ee89.4664171@smtp.es.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:18 AM 6/14/97 GMT, you wrote: >Phil, > >> From my layman's pov, sounds more like the metaphor was bringing up >> transference/countertransference issues. I've read that listening to one's >> own countertransference can lead into the core of the client's issues. >> These can get so wiggly...sounds like a group metaphor experience is a good >> way to get a "handhold" on them. > >It is a good way of feeling ones way into a gp life. The >transference/countertransference could be reflected on at many >levels All of the following people may feel the fear of going >deeper! : > > the son > the father (with the son, but also with the counsellor) > The counsellors with the father (with the supervision gp) > Me, in the sup gp. > Me here, having for unconscious reasons raised it here. > Phil! in picking up on it. > >Of course it is a universal phenomena, but there are millions of >universal phenomena -- & we are here with this one. Isnt it >different to actually experientially entertain these things in >the here & now. I find it hard work. I enjoy it though -- it is >a form of playfulness to "entertain", entertainment Ah. I didn't miss how Robert posted on how men don't have a valid role model from the Bradshaw book.. On the other hand, I think that Bradshaw is wrong. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:15:53 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Play, Childhood, and the Circle.. In-Reply-To: <339f3d39.56830400@smtp.es.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm going to try a stream of conciousness on this.. since I don't feel comfortable with everything, but on the other hand don't feel that it's so important that I need to choose every word, but it is important enough to respond and perhaps clarify. Perhaps increase the level of communcation... At 12:30 AM 6/12/97 GMT, you wrote: >Wilbur > >I love hearing your story, Wilbur about you and Julia. And your >interest in me. I am interested in you. You seem quite similar to me in significant ways.. >I am finding a few things are . . . how to put it? giving me >need to state where i am at, where i think i am not being seen. >No blame. Accepted.. >> As you stand in the healing circle, having been asked to come out and play, >> I see you respond with: >> >> :: There is good reason and ample justification for these resistances >> :: and they should never, under any circumstances, be ridden over >> :: >etc. > >Not quite Wilbur! There are a couple of subtle differences! > >1. That particular resistance was to getting the hat! Which i >am actually not resistant about but which there are a couple of >obstacles to me geting right now . . . minor ones . . . I thought it was more to running naked.. but I think it was the expression, like a playing of a tape that triggered the reponse, more than what you were responding to or the context. I notice that you reach for Jung quite frequently, and I have to wonder what time in your life and what part of your makeup makes you accept his positions with such fervor? >In other words i was joking. Note that i wanted you to read Jung >in a swiss accent, which makes the passage a ludricous response >to not buying a hat . . . try it! What is stopping you from >buying anything right now? I can see now that you were joking, and even the see the humor. But I'm not buying anything right now. What are you selling? ;-P >2. In other words I *am* playing! I can appreciate that. But I wasnt' asking about the intellectual play. I was asking about the little Walter coming out to play. Unless you were a very unusual child, I don't see that you knew Jung when you were 5, before the onset of the domination of your intellectual.. I was asking about the play side of Walter, the child before Jung. >So that is bit frustrating. Having, for example, to explain my >joke (I was hoping someone else might!) I might have strange way >of doing it -- but that *is* me. I know that is you. But I sense another part of you under the surface. I don't want to push it, and I think that you are fine just the way that you are. But I get this notion from the background that there is something that you are looking for. You have even stated that yourself. >Far from being resistant to being in the centre of this circle I >am giving it a good shot. Katryn was so right about me needing >some sort of circle. This is especially true since Stuart's >illness & death. I am creating new f2f circles for myself in rl. >Exploring options. I dont actually expect that from this list, >nor do I ask for it, but as it was so perceptively suggested, >offered, i am hanging in with it. And getting something out of >it. I am having to work hard to do that though, in the midst of >what seems a lot of silence. I'm glad to see that you are looking for peer involvement, creating "real life" circles.. Are you doing this with people that aren't Jungian Psychologists? I noticed the silence, and it was deafening. Quite the egg shell situation. No one getting into the discussion. No one talking about the circle. Why wasn't anyone posting about the circle? I'd like to get some response from the people on the list. >Never the less Wilbur you are onto something. I am not resisting >anything you say here about my processes. I appreciate your >reflections, and insistance. Thank you. I want you to understand that I respect the effort that made to stay in the circle without getting response. It must have been maddening. I don't know that I would have liked to be in that circle. Perhaps this circle is one of your own making, but I can tell you that the circle that I'm looking for isn't like the one that you were just in. I'd be terrified. >> Do you see the dandelions at your feet, Walter? >I think I do. I think I *see* a lot, and with that feel somewhat >isolated at times. Hence my note here about not being seen here >in this moment. It is a *note* and not exactly a gripe. I think >you see me quite well Wilbur. I am letting in what feels right. I think that you see the forest and the trees, but I wonder if your child sees the dandelions at your feet. Metaphorically, what I was asking is if you where able to enjoy the great gifts that you already have in your life and just be able to enjoy the flow of discovery. Play your way through the discovery and enjoy the trip, but also stop to notice the simple things, not the complex intellectual things that you normally see. On another list there is the discussion of "seeing" as the metaphor for western meaning. We are based on the "visual" and the visual is the basis for the intellect. While the intellect can play, and yours certainly does, I was wondering if you can play into the area before the intellect, before Jung.. I only ask this because I know that my intellect can tyrannize the other parts of my life. While I've learned to enjoy the intellect, it's the moments when I don't have the intellect going that provide the greatest insight. The intellect can prevent me from enjoying the simple things. The emotional flow where the intellect adds detail to but doesn't control or create. The series of dandelions that appear only after I pick the first one. >To Susan, >Oh, another thought. I have Susan's gift of the hat. A virtual >hat for a virtual circle. > >I am aware that with your mothers illness and possible death you >may not be here. You have also said that it may be of comfort to >have this list here, on your return. Welcome back -- as you must >be if you are reading this. I hope all went as well as it could, >and you have honoured the occasion. Well said, Walter. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:30:53 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: healing circle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [second sending posted it an hour or so ago as well -- mail flow problems] Marie, =20 > It is good to be here, for many reasons -- primarily, because it has = been > so impossible for me to find words before. Breaking through that = barrier > in me was liberating, although scary. I enjoyed your response to me . . . have let it mature here as it were. Just posted the note to Phil re Metaphor and the "fear of going deeper as it may bring up stuff we cant handle. Now I see your words here, and wonder if this applies here for you? Not only for you, but for me, and others? I don't actually *feel* that fear right now. But i entertain its possibility. =20 I do have feelings . . . about still being in this "healing circle": annoyed, frustrated, perhaps there is fear there, no not really, i have gone as deep as i intend to go.=20 That makes it clear! I'll step out of it. Thanks to all who have initiated and responded to me there. I will say some more later.=20 Here we were speaking about Psyber-L: > I like this image -- a circle of possibility and containment ... I like it too. What of the actual? I . . . am frustrated with this project . . . AND I love it, the *actuality* of it. I am a J in the MB scale, so it is hard to simply accept anything as it is. I always look beyond for the possible. I remind myself that what *is* here is ok! =20 > No, the feeling of resonance was strong, not almost -- perhaps the = 'almost' > phase is the edge of chaos that keeps the creative tension alive? = Perhaps > we learn most from the words and responses that do not come? From our > projections into those silences? =20 Yes. I experienced silence form the group as i was in that circle -- it is a relief to be out of it. I also experienced what came in and appreciated it as best i could. I particularly experienced silence from Kataryn, as an initiator. I also felt that as I "let go" and i did, that there was no-one actually thinking about the list as a whole gp. I noticed things happening, what looked like a stray post from Robert. Susan's situation with her mother. I was also aware that you had felt silence here . . . > Learn what we want from each other, what > we fear? It has certainly been a powerful source of learning for me --= in > part, this time, for the first time, because I felt *disappointed* that > there was so little response (of any kind) to what I wrote (not to = discount > the welcome of Charles, and yours, and Susan -- who is much in my = thoughts > these days, as she travels toward the painful ending of a story in her > life, out of reach from any words of ours that might comfort her) -- = and I > did not feel that there was something wrong with ME for a change. Nor = with > anyone else -- I was just disappointed -- I find I no longer assume = what > silence means, although I still wonder. I share your disappointment, also your wish not to discount, and also the notion that all i am looking at here is my own projection into the silence . . . i do not feel blame . . . hence i do not blame myself . . . I do feel abandonment (mild though it is) . . . do i abandon myself? > I belong to a Healing Circle, for several years now -- a wordless = circle of > meditation and immersion in the flow of Reiki energy -- which I do not > understand, although I have felt it. I do not feel it here -- but then= it > is a circle evoked for you, not me, and that seems right, although I > understand your desire not to be alone in the circle! Yet, my sense is > that, for you, healing means to feel that you are with companions on a > shared journey, that being apart in a circle -- even a healing circle = -- > even if you receive the affirmation of caring and holding and support = -- > still means being apart, not connected, which is the deeper need? The > deepest yearning? And that your role as facilitator here sometimes = creates > that same sense of disconnection? You hit the nail on the head here. I missed it the first time i read it. I am more comfortable if i do not feel "apart" separate from the circle. Phew. Yet that separation comes by being the facilitator, and also by being a "healee" in a healing circle. =20 You wrote > I do not feel drawn to ask for healing here (although the > insight or feedback of others is always welcome). =20 I understand that. I don't think i asked. I found the offer synchronistically apt. I went with it. That was ok. I think it might be too much to go from "facilitator" to that child like space i was invited into. I *think* (project, that it does actually create a sense of abandonment in the gp too, if the facilitator goes too far in that direction. I know this from rl gps, where I wld not have responded to Kataryn the way i did. I think: This is not a rl event, and hence we need to explore the differences. Also this is not a "group" it is an open "list". I might be the facilitator, but one who explores the limits of being a participant as well. In all honesty i think i have learnt the limitation. I went to Charles's list explored the feeling of being a participant there, feels good! I am thinking now: Perhaps=20 ~~~ Kataryn needs a Healing Circle ~~~ What has come out of it for me is that i need a rl gp of peers that i connect with and belong to, where i am neither the facilitator, nor a "client". Something perhaps like your Reike group Marie. Though i think mine would be more of a jungian dream type thing. I want it to come to me! I am sick of making things happen! =20 > I do not know what might > activate my fleeing and freezing -- but I do know that I am not as > vulnerable as I was a year ago. I did not know the power of this place= to > open the doors of the psyche and release the caged angels and demons --= and > I was in an empty space of life that left me too much time to dwell = within > -- it is different now. I hope you are able to stay here and weather its storms, if there are any, or its calms! Also to ponder and live with the questions we ask below which i will leave appended, as they are still on my mind. Good to connect here with you, Walter =20 > M>> Is this the safety we seek? And > M>> beyond that ... is this the community I seek? Will my needs be met= here, > M>> will I find sustenance for mind and heart and soul, will this place > M>> nourish or diminish me? > W>Are these your questions or mine? Or both, as they are mine. They = are the > W>questions that if they keep coming up, require that ability to stay = in touch > W>with our own worth. But without closing off to the exploration of = what we > W>might change and do things differently, to remain learners. >=20 > They are my questions -- and my sense that they were yours -- and my > wondering if others ask them, too. It is a delicate balance to seek --= to > accept the worth of self, and still remain open to feedback that = indicates > a need to change, to grow. I hope I can do that, remain a learner -- > without listening to the inner predator that condemns me as defective = for > not already having learned whatever lessons come my way. >=20 > M>> How much commonality is needed for community? > > > W>Complex question ~ as might have come through in my recent post on > Wpsychodrama I > W>think the community aspect is important but that the purpose is more = so. > W>When you say: > > > M>> this is a place for experiential learning and depth psychology > > > W>I am delighted, because that sums up the *one* commonality we really = need > W>here. That we all see a different 'place' is just wonderful grist to = our > W>mill. Ah, now I see a mill! Now a healing circle, it was a theatre > W>restaurant. You say you > W>felt implicit expectations, but were they? Perhaps so, where do they= come > W>from? I think we can stay on track and have a community even, through > W>exploring these depths. >=20 > I hope so. >=20 > Marie _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:40:34 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: Play, Childhood, and the Circle.. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wilbur, Walter, all: Wilbur Streett wrote: > > I noticed the silence, and it was deafening. Quite the egg shell > situation. No one getting into the discussion. No one talking about the > circle. > > Why wasn't anyone posting about the circle? I'd like to get some response > from the people on the list. > I didn't post because I was trying to be respectful of a process I didn't feel I could contribute to. As a relative new comer my sense was that the longer term members of the list had responses to make, and I didn't want to risk trivializing anything with my shorter term view. Then unfortunately, the stuff dried up and I never did say what I should have - Thanks Walter, I like this place you've helped create and I'm grateful for the opportunity to be here. The healing circle is a powerful event in rl that non-natives are almost never invited to participate in (according to a friend I have with contacts in the native community here). Perhaps the silence of the circle here in psyber-L is defining one of the limits of computer mediated communication? ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 06:20:22 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Play, Childhood, and the Circle.. In-Reply-To: <33A0C132.3CB6@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim! > I didn't post because I was trying to be respectful of a process I > didn't feel I could contribute to. As a relative new comer my sense = was > that the longer term members of the list had responses to make, and I > didn't want to risk trivializing anything with my shorter term view. I think of you as a regular! But that must be my projection. I like to think of the list as an "old" one -- back to 1993, but none of the originals are left, other than me. =20 The sense of "belonging" here is difficult. It is a "street, a theatre, a pond, etc. How to belong? =20 > Thanks Walter, I like this place you've helped create and I'm > grateful for the opportunity to be here. that is fine. I have moved out of that circle since about lunch time today, that feels better! Took that post ages to get there for some strange reason. It just arrived this minute, an hour after the second one I posted! I hate that! > The healing circle is a powerful event in rl that non-natives are = almost > never invited to participate in (according to a friend I have with > contacts in the native community here). Perhaps the silence of the > circle here in psyber-L is defining one of the limits of computer > mediated communication? Yes i had written re the limits in that post that crossed yours. I don't think it is CMC though. I think it needs a different circle, and fuller participation.=20 This list -- is a mall -- and the shops are all closed. We are meeting in the Mall! A healing circle would work in my opinion, not that i could conduct one, in a small list set up for that purpose, by some dedicated people. At some point new projects will grow from this list! Psybergroups i have called them. I am sure I'll create more, and perhaps other too. =20 I am working up to it. Moving the psybernet web site, It is under construction, the old one (see my sig) is getting dusty. The new one is sparse, I am moving files across, and tidying them up as i go. Only about 5 have made it so far, so don't distribute the URL, but if anyone is interested or has some comment: www.psybernet.co.nz The opening picture has been the "logo" for Psybernet since day one. It is a gem in my opinion, and worth waiting for the download, it takes longer the first time -- how can i speed up graphics like that? No wonder we are on about circles. Thanks jim, =20 walter =20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:36:21 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: healing circle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marie, Susan, Walter and all, Today my my novel went into a typesetting machine. I am at last free to do and think something else. The novel will appear on the market next October, and then my feelings will be like Marie and Susan have described in their latest posts: Marie: >M>> The fear of being wrong, or intrusive, or >M>> inappropriate, or silly, or stupid. Too cerebral, too >M>> emotional. The fear >M>> of being judged, and found wanting. Unworthy. Susan: >Pure play does feel scary--sending you that silly hat seemed so >right in the moment...it just popped into my mind (although hopefully what >is in my mind is a little less sketchy than that "drawing"--an e-artist >I'm not), but as soon as I hit the send sequence I was assailed with fears >(what if people laugh at me rather than with me, what if they think I'm a >ninny, what if...all those fears that Marie identified so clearly as the >fears in the Dream group). These feelings arise always after writing a novel. I feel shame, unworthy, and I am fear of critics and judgement. I also =20 want very urgently feed-back, and I will be as dispointed as Marie, if there is little response, or if the critics are lukewarm=B4. Or there is no response at all - it is the nastiest condition for a writer! It is comforting to remark that my fears are of the same kind with you, Marie and Susan. Perhaps the feelings are similar after all genuine contributions. I have pondered why it must be so. Maybe traces lead into childhood. As childs we have said or done something genuine, and others have laughed at us. After that we have felt shame and humiliated. That=92s why we as adults have =94performance anxiety=94. And the inner critic is always saying: =94Don=92t be silly, you ridiculous being, what do you= think you are?=94=20 Perhaps we *hear* our inner critic to speak aloud in the silence. So, this is a good place to get acquainted with our criticaster critic. = =20 Best regards Anita=20 At 18:12 1997-06-08 -0400, you wrote: >At 06:36 AM 6/3/97 GMT, you wrote: >>Marie, >> >W>Marie it is good to see you here, for many reasons, right now because I >W>appreciate this post . . . your presence with people and the ideas here= is >W>strong. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:37:22 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: healing circle In-Reply-To: <199706131336.QAA18428@walrus.megabaud.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anita, You have inspired me to rush a response to several recent moments here in Psyber-L. (I have been intensely busy with a collision of media development deadlines. I'm a terrible proofreader which doesn't help!) *** Congratulations are in order, Anita. Perhaps you'd be willing to let us know what of your work is in English. Of course I do know how to *use* a library. *** >Marie: > >>M>> The fear of being wrong, or intrusive, or >>M>> inappropriate, or silly, or stupid. Too cerebral, too >>M>> emotional. The fear >>M>> of being judged, and found wanting. Unworthy. >Susan: > >>Pure play does feel scary--sending you that silly hat seemed so >>right in the moment...it just popped into my mind (although hopefully what Anita: > Perhaps the feelings are similar after all genuine >contributions. I have pondered why it must be so. Maybe traces lead into >childhood. As childs we have said or done something genuine, and others >have laughed at us. After that we have felt shame and humiliated. That=92= s >why we as adults have =94performance anxiety=94. I'd be lieing if I did not admit that I now feel guilty for not replying, especially to Marie's sensitive post. Oh well...oh well will have to do battle with the nagging guilt. It's not that I didn't resonate either; how could you know? *** As for my self, some contributions I emit (!) with heavy expectations and tendrils winding backward in time to my childhood, and others are sent forth like a lark, the bird. *** HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:53:36 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: healing circle In-Reply-To: <199706131336.QAA18428@walrus.megabaud.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Healing circles, etc... *** It's too late to count me out, huh? *** I dug the hat gift and am not unsympathetic to healing, but at some point the recent process lost me. Obviously it does no good to stand in the circle and be not in sympathy with the event. It unfolded before me, still don't get it. Have my own odd ideas... *** The specific reference to a particular healing ritual, aboriginal perhaps?, is besides the point. Healing circles are fine even as informal groupings. But they aren't initiation or transformation rituals, generally, and seem best at 'room temperature'. imo *** As regards Walter's healing, I'm all for it! :-) But really, what good is my opinion on the matter? I hardly know Walter. Walter you seem to be right in the flow of your life with great sensitivities; for two years your beingness expressed here has always struck me as true and beautiful. What else is there to say? Is there not a healing which is not about getting from point A to point B? How healing is it to stand within the circle, absent of critique, absent of prescription, absent even of development? (My feeling: *very*.) *** The hard blows of life wound. Healing takes time; "time takes time" ...as the Sufis say. *** But to step out among the dandelions? I don't feel this is about a kid, certainly not about the constrictions of 'intellect'. Probably I'm wrong, but I know the suggestion did not ring true with me. It's always seemed to me that Walter is a sensualist and touching the perennial wonderment. *** Intention is hard to express in this medium. To form a circle around someone seems to call for affirmation, an expression of the 'itness' of the circle, and through that itness then our collected intention may ring, as a bell is rung by the softest of mallet strikes, and that then, Walter might feel him self *as he is* in the very moment when the tone rings its healing sound. *** just wandering about the wondering of healing, HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:52:33 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: healing circle In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen, Counted out, counted in. > How healing is it to stand within the circle, absent of critique, = absent of > prescription, absent even of development? >=20 > (My feeling: *very*.) Somewhat, anyway, which would not normally count as healing I supposed -- we need miracles, cures. The whole experience involved noticing there was somethign *right* and something wrong. Prescription, critique, development were not absent ~ though it felt like that at times ~ nor fully present. >*** > > The hard blows of life wound. Healing takes time; "time takes time" = ...as > the Sufis say. >=20 > *** A valuable truth, when people want instant everything. The trouble is the wounding is speeding up. ~~~ > But to step out among the dandelions? I don't feel this is about a kid, > certainly not about the constrictions of 'intellect'. Probably I'm = wrong, > but I know the suggestion did not ring true with me. It's always seemed= to > me that Walter is a sensualist and touching the perennial wonderment. Thank you, that's my opinion too, but it sounded like too much resistance coming from me. I am all of the above and willing to entertain the opposite as well! Usually humble too! Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 01:54:35 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Place [Re: Play, Childhood, and the Circle..] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970612231553.0095c600@monmouth.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wilbur > I can appreciate that. But I wasnt' asking about the intellectual = play. I > was asking about the little Walter coming out to play. Unless you were= a > very unusual child, I don't see that you knew Jung when you were 5, = before > the onset of the domination of your intellectual.. I was asking about = the > play side of Walter, the child before Jung. My earliest memory, no, a very early memory, being at an aunt's place, and for the first time, looking out at the world from a second story window. We lived on the ground floor. I saw people in the street and the houses from above, and asked my aunt "What was here first the people or the houses?" The people she explained, which made me wonder where they lived!=20 I don't think i was unusual, but it shows something of that agonising curiosity that is more visceral than intellectual. All this has made me think about a circle, and belonging, having a place. I am not as Jungian as you think. I have not read a lot, the quote about resistance caught my eye as I was tidying a book I had not read. I think what i use Jung for is to mark out a *place* -- I also add Moreno, and McLuhan. Anyone searching the web with those three names will find us here. I just tried it! http://www.excite.com/search.gw?search=3DJung+Moreno+McLuhan&trace=3D2 Magic! When it comes to using the word *psychology* one needs to be careful. I do anyway. It is not the clinical variety of much of academia, and managed care that I am drawn to. The word Jung drives people away as much as attracts others. It makes it clear in one word where on the tree of human ideas, movements, schools, communities I place myself. Yet the place has to be made, that curiosity, and drive for the *next* step in the process will not allow me to settle on another's turf. I would have to add Marx to define the direction as well. I would want to have a good distance from the libertarian Wired school. Obviously this sort of *sense of place* is not important to some -- to me it is vital, it just *is*. I am also very curious as to how important it is to others. Do you know where you are on that tree? Do you have a sense of your ancestry along that tree? =20 I am not a great historian but i'd love to see it more clearly. I see Plato, gnostics, at the roots of Jung. Joyce and Cambridge poets? at the roots of McLuhan, Moreno is a bit out on his own, but is some sort of Freudian 180 degree breakaway? Must have a lot from the Vienna at that time? Wittgenstien time? Marx a 180 degree opposite of Hegel. =20 They are all men, all intellectual, but that is not what it is about for me . . . it is knowing who I am. The Maori have a term whakapapa for their lineage. I am looking for this in the global village i guess. A western one perhaps. ~~~ > I'm glad to see that you are looking for peer involvement, creating = "real > life" circles.. Are you doing this with people that aren't Jungian > Psychologists? I have some sort of circle of family and friends, that I live with, eat with, go into the hills with. I search for that other place, and look to some extent to Jungians. I don't want *therapy* or work related stuff, but it would be good to explore with people who speak the same language, who (for example) are into dreams without either dismissing them, or seeing them as oracles. I don't want to fight for my place! =20 I think that was the dilemma in the healing circle.=20 ~~~ > Why wasn't anyone posting about the circle? I'd like to get some = response > from the people on the list. That was a good question -- got some good response! ~~~ Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:07:47 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: PSYBER-L: Subscription renewal monitoring report In-Reply-To: <199706151005.WAA03765@ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 06:00:08 -0400 "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8c)" wrote, in a = post entitled: "PSYBER-L: Subscription renewal monitoring report" : >=20 > The following 65 subscribers were deleted from the PSYBER-L list today: >=20 List followed. There were some familiar email addresses in the list, and i am sorry to = see them go! Still, this gives us a better picture of who is actually here. Also each person who was removed, received an email, which looked like = this: ~~~quote~~~ Sun, 15 Jun 1997 06:00:06 Your subscription to the PSYBER-L list has expired and you have failed to confirm it in the 14 day delay that you had been granted. You have therefore been automatically removed from the list. You can re-subscribe to the list, if you want to, by Sun, 15 Jun 1997 06:00:06 Your subscription to the PSYBER-L list has expired and you have failed to confirm it in the 14 day delay that you had been granted. You have therefore been automatically removed from the list. You can re-subscribe to the list, if you want to, by sending the following command to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM: SUBscribe PSYBER-L ~~~ So we may well see people resub in good time. =20 You can see who is on the list, about 35 I guess, by sending the following command to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM: Review Psyber-l =20 All the best, Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:33:48 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: [PSYBER-L] Technological Angels - Wilbur's Head In-Reply-To: <3394C1A2.24C5@easynet.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:15 PM 6/3/97 -0400, you wrote: >I looked too Wilbur - very scary. You may want to change it before your >children worry they're the product of a genetic experiment gone awry. >My son thought you might be Bruce Bannon, just before he does the >transformation into the Hulk. Aaarggh!! HULK MAD!! > >Cheers ...Jim Alright, so now I've changed it. Tamara got me a scanner for my birthday.. (I bet that Julia will get more pictures scanned than I will..) Anyway, it's at: http://www.monmouth.com/~wstreett/wilbur.html I'll be gone for a week at the Virtual Human conference.. Wilbur Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:22:54 -1 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Bent Bogedal Christoffersen Subject: Silent Membership MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable I am one of the silent members of the list. In the beginning I started to write, but I soon found out that it would take to much time for me to respond and to participate in the many interesting discussions. Thats because my english is not of the very high level, that the members are using.And thats good, it must be like that. I felt embarrassed when I discovered that my spelling is lausy, lucky enough I read and speak, better than writing english. So I often follow the discussion, reading and enjoying many of the topics.And I still admire the good and warm atmosphere. And there was no doubt, when it came to confirm my membership. Although I=B4m not a silent member, when it comes to be a member of a group in RL. I have to be one here.And that I think, is also a part the exploring of Listmembership. So now You know that I am still "Out There" and catching some of the beutiful stones that drops into the Psyber - Lake. Thank You to all of You. Bent Bogedal Christoffersen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:37:29 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: John Pateros Subject: God in the healing circle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been reading posts from the list and wondering what folks here would think about having God in the healing circle. I have read/heard several different accounts about how many of our human, personal issues originate in the transpersonal realm. They all seem to share the common thread of antipathies within Deity that we humans experience as inner conflicts among parts of the self. I've often wondered what transpersonal issues are at the root of my neurosis and what my personal responsibilities might be regarding the healing of transpersonal issues. To this end I've been working with a couple of generic healing models, Jungian-Reichian type emotional release work and hypnosis. To help me get more clear on this, I would like to know how you feel about the "messages" that are communicated on the web site: http://www.godchannel.com I'm particularly interested in your take on the portrayal of the issues between the thinking and feeling parts of "God". Thanks in advance for any insights you may care to share. John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 05:56:45 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: PSYBER-L: Subscription renewal monitoring report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Walter Logeman wrote: > = > All, > = > On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 06:00:08 -0400 "L-Soft list server at > HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8c)" wrote, in a= post > entitled: "PSYBER-L: Subscription renewal monitoring report" : > = > > > > The following 65 subscribers were deleted from the PSYBER-L list toda= y: > > > = > List followed. > = > There were some familiar email addresses in the list, and i am sorry to= see > them go! Still, this gives us a better picture of who is actually here= =2E > Also each person who was removed, received an email, which looked like = this: > = > < snip> > You can see who is on the list, about 35 I guess, by sending the > following command to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM: > = > Review Psyber-l > = > All the best, > = > Walter Walter, all, I used the command to see the list and it is much shorter - and more consistent with the experience of the list. I had always found the high number of 'silent members' disconcerting and a bit inhibiting. There is also some regret at the familiar names (eg. Jim the Elder) that seem to be gone from the list. Does this bring regret to others also? In a related post, = Bent Bogedal Christoffersen wrote: > > I am one of the silent members of the list. > In the beginning I started to write, but I soon found out > that it would take to much time for me to respond and to > participate in the many interesting discussions. > Thats because my english is not of the very high level, that > the members are using.And thats good, it must be like that. > I felt embarrassed when I discovered that my spelling > is lausy, lucky enough I read and speak, better than writing > english. So I often follow the discussion, reading and enjoying > many of the topics.And I still admire the good and > warm atmosphere. > And there was no doubt, when it came to confirm my > membership. > Although I=B4m not a silent member, when it comes to > be a member of a group in RL. I have to be one here.And that > I think, is also a part the exploring of Listmembership. > So now You know that I am still "Out There" and catching > some of the beutiful stones that drops into the Psyber - Lake. > Thank You to all of You. > Bent Bogedal Christoffersen Bent, = Your english is fine with me. I hope you will be kind enough to continue sharing your thoughts - and will do so without embarrassment. = Language is for communication and as such, can take many forms, all of which have value. I can certainly relate to the time issue though, it can take a lot of time to organize thoughts and respond, even for native english speakers! For my part, things have been busy enough lately that its hard to get the time to read posts, let alone respond. =2E..Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:07:35 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: = Mail Flow Question == MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Logeman wrote: > > All, > I have recently sent some posts the list, and they do not arrive. > I do not get them, nor are they in the archives. The strange > thing is, that the very next post, perhaps sent a few minutes > later will arrive without a hitch. > > Wanting to ensure that my wayward post arrives, i send it again. > On the last occasion it then arrived immediatly. The trouble is > that the wayward one has now also arrived, 24 hours or so late! > I apologise for the double up. > > Are others having this problem? Anyone have any ideas about > this. > > Walter > Walter, I've monitored my last few posts and they have gone through without delay. Some of your posts do appear in my inbox, only to be repeated within an hour or a day. Assuming others on the list are also not having the problem you're experiencing - I'd suspect the issue is related to your mail provider. When you send messages the first one 'sits' on their server without being passed to the net, therefore you can't see it on the L-soft server (because it never got there). You then send the post again and now both copies show up. Hope this helps, ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:19:56 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: PSYBER-L: Subscription renewal monitoring report In-Reply-To: <33A65F5D.18AC@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, > I used the command to see the list and it is much shorter - and more > consistent with the experience of the list. I had always found the = high > number of 'silent members' disconcerting and a bit inhibiting.=20 This is much better, for all the sadness at the loss of some. I will now set the list to do this every six months and that will prevent some of the confusion as to who is here. I notice at least one person has come back on!=20 ~~~quote~~~ Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:32:57 James V Dimmick has just subscribed to the PSYBER-L list (Psybernet Mailing List). ~~~end quote~~~ Good to see you here, Jim the Elder! JimC you wrote to=20 > Bent Bogedal Christoffersen=20 > Your english is fine with me. I hope you will be kind enough to > continue sharing your thoughts - and will do so without embarrassment.=20 > Language is for communication and as such, can take many forms, all of > which have value. I can certainly relate to the time issue though, it > can take a lot of time to organize thoughts and respond, even for = native > english speakers! For my part, things have been busy enough lately = that > its hard to get the time to read posts, let alone respond. I agree with every word, and add my appreciation. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:34:05 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: = Mail Flow Question == In-Reply-To: <33A661E7.730C@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, > When you send messages the first one > 'sits' on their server without being passed to the net, therefore you > can't see it on the L-soft server (because it never got there). You > then send the post again and now both copies show up. I am onto them about this, but to no avail as yet. Most posts just go within a minute. It is just a nuisance when I sense there is a critical time! It happened the other day when we had what must have been the critical mass of silence, and I was saying things just as others were (you & Wilbur i think) and then mine were not getting through. It was actually worth posting it twice, as the second one came about 12 hours before the first. It is not a big problem, but has happened since i changed providers and got my new domain name. I'll continue to post them headers from email that has the problem. It is alerting me to the notion that time and silence are related, and that asynchronous as we are in this medium, we are not "above" time, that notions of the critical moment apply. That there is a sense that something can go stale. Also that it can be "revived", once it is dead. What happened to irc? Did that healing circle get in the way? Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:58:14 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: God in the healing circle In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, Welcome, an interesting post. > I've been reading posts from the list and wondering what folks here = would > think about having God in the healing circle.=20 John, this is a circle of sorts, but at least in my imaginal picture of the participants here, the more deliberate go at having some healing type of event, is now over. Interestingly,=20 Kataryn, who initiated the circle is still here on the list! She or others may have a different picture. This "Subscription renewal monitoring" really is an interesting way to know a lot more, in the past we just had to surmise. > I have read/heard several > different accounts about how many of our human, personal issues = originate > in the transpersonal realm. They all seem to share the common thread = of > antipathies within Deity that we humans experience as inner conflicts = among > parts of the self. >=20 > I've often wondered what transpersonal issues are at the root of my > neurosis and what my personal responsibilities might be regarding the > healing of transpersonal issues. To this end I've been working with a > couple of generic healing models, Jungian-Reichian type emotional = release > work and hypnosis. To help me get more clear on this, I would like to = know > how you feel about the "messages" that are communicated on the web = site: >=20 > http://www.godchannel.com I have participated in many psychodramas, where God is enacted. Moreno the originator also "channeled" God, and wrote it up as a book called "The Words of the Father". Being "God" is certainly a valuable experience, I have learnt how powerless he can be, when humans just will not listen to him. Also how wise when he is fully present. I thought the idea of God having a web page is really interesting! Somehow, not quite "right" for me -- I have "my" path and i am sticking to it. With more surefootedness at the moment. I like to see not just "God" but whole flocks of archetypes present and, yes, I could even channel them -- I'd call it role reversal with them. I am not sure how the channelers view the "God" they channel, but i have a sense that it is more literal than i would see the archetypes -- who belong to the realm of myth & metaphor. > I'm particularly interested in your take on the portrayal of the issues > between the thinking and feeling parts of "God". Thanks in advance for= any > insights you may care to share. In the brief look at the words of "God" on that other site, he does seem to be somewhat intellectual! =20 How does my response sound to you? =20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html ICQ UID: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:06:19 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Moonasylum Subject: time away Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Walter, and other friends, One of the side-themes of late here has been the pull of real-life demands and time constraints -- which is the space I have been in, trying to prepare for a trip to Vermont (my last residency for the M.A. in Counseling Psychology I am working on; this will start my thesis semester) -- I will be doing some mentoring at this one (again) as well as creating a thesis proposal -- and I have been working over-time (since I will not be paid while I am away) and seeing clients and switching supervisors and organizing paperwork -- and negotiating an emerging relationship that was a friendly flirtation but is becoming, suddenly, something else ... I will work tomorrow until 11am and leave for Vermont at noon -- and I am not packed! I will be home again Friday night of next week, if I survive the experience! (According to the schedule, rest room breaks will probably have to wait until next Monday!) Anita -- like Hoon, I would very much like to know if any of your work is available in English (or in French? I read it passably well). I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who suffers such self-doubt when putting pieces of myself before the eyes of others, it makes me feel less isolated and alone with it. I hope your book receives a warm and resonating reception. It was interesting to read the new list of subscribers -- and sad to see the missing names I expected to see (I will not name them, as I do not want to seem to discount any I might forget) -- Jim, yes, I do share your feeling of regret, and I hope some will return, as Jim the Elder has. Phil, I wanted to reply to your posts on narrative therapy, since narrative approaches to psychology is my passion, but I have had no time -- I am especially intrigued by your statement that so few of us know how to tell our own stories -- perhaps it is a thread we could revive later? Susan, if you return before I do, welcome home (I will write to you privately, hopefully before I leave -- let me know if you do not receive it, please). Be gentle with yourself in this time, my friend. Hoon, I came across some jottings on a piece of paper this week that included a quote which reminded me of you -- I do not remember writing it down, or where I found it, but I share it here because it speaks to me as your words often do, with a strange and confused resonance ... I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside. Rumi Walter, thank you for all you have shared. My Reiki circle has felt less and less like a place of belonging for me, for months now, and your words helped me realize that it is because I will never be more than an interested bystander and a former patient there -- it gave me much, it welcomes me still, but it is not my circle, my world. I have not found that world yet, just temporary havens. Robert, it seemed to me that your post on masculinity was not meant to come here (from the names in the beginning)? I think I understand your concern, and I share it -- how can we find a way (men and women) to transcend the issues of power and difference that so often keep us locked in adversarial positions? I think the answer lies somewhere in the aspects of self that we all deny in ourselves -- the faces of self that feel most alien, most other, must somehow be embraced and reconciled -- I am far from knowing how to do that! Bent, I have enjoyed each and every post of yours that I ever read. I hope you find the time and energy to participate here again. Wilbur, it is neat to have a picture of you to go with your words -- which, as you often remind us, are not all we are. I like the family feel of your website! I must go pack! bright blessings, Marie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:53:51 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Cheryl Foltos Subject: Hello MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am new to the list and would like to introduce myself. My name is Cheryl Foltos and I live @ 15 miles north of San Francisco, California. I am 46 yrs. old, live alone, have a diabetic cat. I commute into SF every day where I manage the research projects for the ophthalmology department of a large medical center. I've come to this list through Charles Cameron's Hipbone Games site. Approximately three weeks ago, I participated in an online seminar on Spirituality and Education during which I encountered Charles. One of the purposes of that seminar was to look into the question of whether or not spirituality can be taught/communicated on the web. Charles wrote some things which inspired and I looked into what he was up to. I've ended up here for a while. This is the second such list I've participated in. I had been on the ecopsychology list for @ seven months and found my interest waning. I am quite interested in process - much more so than in content and look forward to that aspect of this list. In my life I have written poetry, lived in a Zen community, practiced Tibetan Buddhism, suffered from clinical depression, made many people laugh, been cruel, been kind, lied, stole, gave away my possessions, been greedy, ignorant, brillant and have all the other garden variety of qualities that we all possess. I have experienced agony and ecstasy and am trying to learn to live with all that is unresolved in my life. This last bit requires quite alot of patience which I've never been really good at. But with a little help from my friends,and alot of help from the tibetan lamas, I am improving. I look forward to getting to know you all. Sincerely, Cheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:58:02 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Psybernet Web Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, www.psybernet.co.nz As you may have noticed Psybernet has a new domain name. I have made people aware of my email address, but have held back on the web site until now. I am working on the web site. It is always under construction, so I will wait no longer and you can see the transition if you wish, from the old site to the new. =20 The old site is a little dusty, it has old links, wording I no longer quite like, and It is not being updated. It will soon be gone altogether. The new site, consists of the files that have been updated. They still contain links to files that have not been updated, and thus do not work. =20 So take your pick! =20 * Old and dusty * New and incomplete * Wait till the new site is more ready.=20 (I'll let you know) Please feel free to make links to the new address, it will be the address for years to come I expect. Suggestions for the site welcome in private mail. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz www.psybernet.co.nz ICQ: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 23:41:29 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: = Mail Flow Question == MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Logeman wrote: > > It is alerting me to the notion that time and silence are > related, and that asynchronous as we are in this medium, we are > not "above" time, that notions of the critical moment apply. > That there is a sense that something can go stale. Also that it > can be "revived", once it is dead. What happened to irc? Did > that healing circle get in the way? > > Walter Walter, Kataryn, Hoon, all In retrospect I'm looking at the two events, IRC and healing circle as related. Both were attempts to move some of the list activity into a more intimate domain and both met with limited success. Re. IRC I'm not surprised - while I've little experience with 'chat' my impression to date is of the Tower of Babel (or is it Babble?). When I've joined chats I was bewildered by the array of voices, all of which seemed to be ranting in parallel. Perhaps I made unlucky choices of groups, but I do worry at the impact on Psyber-L. Chatting would require us to be synchronous in both time and thought, no small challenge! Re. the healing circle I wrote previously that in rl these are powerful events and that perhaps it was unsuccessful because the event doesn't tranlate well to this environment. Hoon this was not intended as a put down of the attempt, rather I wanted to propose a more benign interpretation than Wilbur's feeling that the list had somehow failed. (Perhaps I misstate your case Wilbur, if so please correct me). I think you are on to something Walter with the notion of asynchonous and synchronous time. This is a decidedly asynchonous environment, yet we were trying to become synchronous. No small feat! Maybe we need to connect the two events more closely and have a healing circle on IRC? ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:35:03 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: time away Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marie, At 19:06 1997-06-17 -0400, you wrote: >Phil, I wanted to reply to your posts on narrative therapy, since narrative >approaches to psychology is my passion, but I have had no time -- I am >especially intrigued by your statement that so few of us know how to tell >our own stories -- perhaps it is a thread we could revive later? What an interesting thread! Your proposal brought immediately to my mind several possibilities to tell the story, for example: My Life as an Unsuccessful Zen-Buddhist, or My Everlasting Spiritual Odysseys - to say nothing of emotional odysseys! Seriously, on the subject of telling the own story, there are so many angles to perceive one's life. About then years ago my work was to collect autobiographies told by old construction engineers. It was a history project financed by one organisation. They all told about war and work - and merry student days. But hardly anybody mentioned their family, as if they all had been confirmed bachelors. The family matters were private matters for those men. If they had been women, the biographies would have been quite different, I suppose. I have written three autobiographical novels, and all three differ greatly from each other. I wrote the first one from the Freudian, the second from the Jungian , and the third one from the psychohistorical viewpoint. >Anita -- like Hoon, I would very much like to know if any of your work is >available in English (or in French? I read it passably well). No novel in English or French, only in Russian, unfortunately. One novel has just been translated in English, but perhaps it will never be published. I have no agent . It is not an autobiographical novel. Whereas an essay on Sylvia Plath and Anna Akhmatova has been appeared in English. If you want, I can send it to you via email , as an attachment. Best regards Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:00:23 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: = Mail Flow Question == In-Reply-To: <33A758E9.57AC@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, I mentioned something in my other post about your notion of our attempt to be synchronous in this asynchronous environment, I enjoyed the observation! I also enjoy how the title of this post, originally referring to a technical problem, now wonderfully refers to a more profound exploration.=20 > Maybe we need to=20 > connect the two events more closely and have a healing circle on IRC? In context this was more light and humorous than it looks right now, but it is an interesting question . . . One of the items in the list description is that this list explores leadership in cyberspace. Leadership questions come up for me in response to your (perhaps playful) question. =20 Both the irc, and the healing circle began with leadership initiatives . . . and IMO then petered out. No blame, just noticing. Noticing too, that by going into the healing circle, I became more participant than ever, and perhaps that was another example of leadership petering out. It certainly did when, more than a your ago I went into the DreamEvent . . . and this list was stranded for a while. =20 I am slowly warming up to designing some sort of new project, a new PsyberGroup. I would not wish to do it "in" this list as we tried with the somewhat curious PWP (with its own leadership problems). How could I put my limited cyberspace time elsewhere and not abandon this list? Could someone else have a go at facilitation ~ that would be a new project in its own right! It would like that, then there would be someone else with whom I could share how it feels to wear that *hat*. I bet the list would have quite a deferent feel. I would still be here, perhaps more in the background, and perhaps, available on or offlist or both, to discuss the process, "supervise". =20 I'd appreciate some discussion on this, rather than just launching into it. I think it requires some thought. =20 . . .=20 One thought: it is definitely better to think of this as having inherent value, rather than as a way of giving me space. I don't think I'd do another project -- this would *be* the project. =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:00:13 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Hello In-Reply-To: <33A7319E.78FA@well.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cheryl, All, > Hello, > I am new to the list and would like to introduce myself,=20 Cheryl, very pleased to get your introduction to the list. Welcome. Does it seem like a long time to you before this response? It does to me. This list generally seems slower than people would like it. The speed can provoke all sorts of feelings, however I am confident that many would have appreciated your introduction. =20 I just recall that you like process, so I am adding that *of course* what I just wrote is about me, you may not have found it a long time and so on. These questions of what is real and what is projection are discussed here again & again, which I think is valuable. Each time there is a new slant. Jim has just come up with one: we are trying to be synchronous in an asynchronous list. What an interesting notion. Perhaps we are learning to be asyncronous. Another slant on "being digital". Makes me think that your introduction could be viewed in two ways: as interaction or as information. It feels like interaction to me right now. Forming a connection. Later . . . such an introduction might be referred to in the archives, as information about the list, and its members. =20 > I've come to this list through > Charles Cameron's Hipbone Games site. Approximately three weeks ago, I > participated in an online seminar on Spirituality and Education during > which I encountered Charles.=20 Interesting, was that in irc? Is there a record of that? Or is it private? > One of the purposes of that seminar was to > look into the question of whether or not spirituality can be > taught/communicated on the web.=20 And what did you come up with? It sounds as if with your experience with Zen, and Tibetan Buddhism you would know some things in this area. I am immediately thinking: taught, communicated? That is difficult on and off line, but I want to add: experienced! I think it can be experienced. I am not so hot on "spiritual" myself, I tend to be what friends who meditate, might think of one who wallows in the emotional layers. They call it stuck. I *experience* some form of numinosity in that process and awe! Often awe and wonder. I experience that on line. =20 > I look forward to getting to know you all. All the best with it. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 06:16:38 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: Sad news Comments: To: per altenberg , caren theuring , Deborah Wooldridge , nancy jose , buchholz , Sharon Bell , Shaleen Zahari , patricia lynch , diane kay sloan , sproat tom <00tmsproat@bsuvc.bsu.edu>, angie wilhelm , kim vanover , paul mura <73760.3207@CompuServe.COM>, takeshi takizawa , Jarrett Leesch , akounas@sunflowr.usd.edu, asweet@sunflowr.usd.edu, awiltse@sunflowr.usd.edu, chenrich@sunflowr.usd.edu, jrenner@sunflowr.usd.edu, mvandeve@sunflowr.usd.edu, rwagner@sunflowr.usd.edu, shathawa@sunflowr.usd.edu, slincoln@sunflowr.usd.edu, sswan@sunbird.usd.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Friends--Pardon the "listness" of this, but it seemed the quickest way to let people know and time (as well as my brain) is a bit scrambled right now. My mother passed on quietly in her sleep at about 5:00 this morning. Thankfully I was still here--I was scheduled to leave shortly after to catch a plane to South Dakota to teach a class in Rapid City. Burial will be tomorrow and a memorial service on Monday. If anyone needs to reach me, I will be here in North Carolina at 704-488-2449 and still check e-mail regularly (it seems a safe place to sit and cry). Thanks for all of your support. Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:36:09 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Cheryl Foltos Subject: Re: Hello MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning Walter and all, Thanks for your response. Was it slower than I expected? Hmmm...I'm not sure I had any particular expectation, although I did notice the lack of abundant activity on the list. Comparison isn't usually all that useful (even though that's the way we notice) but so far I notice a curious kind of silence which may simply be a function of numbers - fewer people on this list, fewer posts. I didn't take it personally, just interested in how it actually is. I think my introduction was information as interaction. I was aware that I was presenting myself much more as an activity rather than a "label" - I kind of cringe at saying things like: "I am a...." I have a very strong sense life as a flow of events rather than an assembly of things. It seems much more accurate to say "i have written poetry" than "I am a poet". I don't know...the latter statement seems to immediately invoke expectations or comparisons, etc. etc. or perhaps ideas than are totally unlike the actual situation. Anyway... I'm a process observer. I did go look at the old and new websites and have to say that I was pleasantly surprised and felt like I was indeed in the right place. The phrase "patiently present" really echoed with what I feel I am cultivating in my life right now. If I have any sort of "spiritual" practice (ya have to watch those labels, Walter!) it is to be "patiently present" I think I characterized it in my introduction as "trying to learn to live with all that is unresolved in my life". I've given up on trying, and "making better" and "effort" because I found it just added more suffering to the suffering I already had of not being okay or adequate or whatever. The online seminar I mentioned is probably archived. You might try this address: SCL@csf.colorado.edu. I appreciated your addition of the word "experienced" - much more accurate. I experience all those things that you mentioned online too. It's irrelevant to me whether someone calls something spiritual or not. Alot of people think I'm "stuck" too in my "spiritual" life! (I really laughed reading that) but that's not my experience. I'm learning what I need to learn and I trust that others everywhere are too. That's all for now. I do my email before going off to work in the morning so I need to get going. Lots of early morning birds are chattering away outside and I have a little smile on my face. Cheers. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:11:38 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Sad news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Please take my thoughts with you through the hours of the day and through the difficult days to come. Getting older has touched me with my mortality and with the presence of closure (death) for this mortal body I have borrowed for this journey. Getting older has also given promise of there being more than just this journey. I don't know if it is of any comfort, but to hear that your mother made the transition in her sleep had a beautiful sound, sad and bittersweet for the survivor(s). I lived with the death of a friend who also died in his sleep. That was part of my growing, my aging. Share the news with those you teach in Rapid City if you feel disconnected from them. They will respond well and make the event of being there more human. Get heart-well soon. Robert > way to let people know and time (as well as my brain) is a bit scrambled > right now. My mother passed on quietly in her sleep at about 5:00 this > morning. Thankfully I was still here--I was scheduled to leave shortly > after to catch a plane to South Dakota to teach a class in Rapid City. > Burial will be tomorrow and a memorial service on Monday. If anyone needs > to reach me, I will be here in North Carolina at 704-488-2449 and still > check e-mail regularly (it seems a safe place to sit and cry). Thanks for > all of your support. > Susan > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 08:58:51 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: Hello Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cheryl, Walter, all: Let me add my welcome, Cheryl. The "Spirituality and Education" Cheryl mentions was run by the Naropa Institute as a sort of preamble to a "live" Conference they were holding, and it is indeed archived at: http://csf.Colorado.EDU/mail/scl/may97/ Walter wrote: > Does it seem like a long time to you before this response? It > does to me. This list generally seems slower than people would > like it. The speed can provoke all sorts of feelings, however I am > confident that many would have appreciated your introduction. I think Walter is onto something here, the discomfort factor does seem skewed in favor of the list being "slower" than wanted. But I think that's because it's "faster" than we'd like, too, only in a slightly more covert way. I hope I can make sense of that somewhat enigmatic phrasing before I'm through... When I see a post coming through this list that I'd like to (or even "need" to) respond to, I pretty much either respond right away or not at all. Take your own self-intro, Cheryl. I wanted to reply on this list and welcome you, but I also wanted to thank you for your comments at the Naropa site, and a personal post you'd sent me, and I had time to write one post: so I made it a personal and private one, not wishing to drag Naropa-related stuff onto the list here. I didn't experience that situation as "the list has gotten too busy" or "is going too fast" for my liking, but as "O God I should really reply to Cheryl on list to welcome here there", but the bottom line (bottom time-line) was that I needed to post you *two* posts, one private and one on list, and I only had time to write one of them,so: it would either (i) dodge the private and earlier (Naropa) stuff and go on Psyber-L, which would have seemed cold and impersonal under the circumstances, or (ii) touch on the private and Naropa stuff but still go on Psyber-L, which would have seemed a little messy -- particularly since the main thing I wanted to comment on re Naropa was a very kind and beautiful comment you'd made about a post of mine, or (iii) touch on the private and Naropa stuff and be a private post. As you know, Cheryl, I chose the third option, and posted a private welcome. When I say above, "I didn't experience that situation as", what I mean is, I didn't "tell myself the story that" the list is going too fast for me... I didn't say to myself, "I'm overwhelmed with posts", or "Cheryl's post is one post too many": but I had the sense nonetheless that I *didn't* get to respond to a post I would *like* to have responded to. And that means I had a discomfort factor which wouldn't have been there if I'd had a spare half hour more to write a second post. So... occasions when we'd like to respond to a post but can't get filed as "like to respond but can't", whereas occasions when we'd like a response but don't get one tend to be filed as "the list is too slow" or -- and here's Walter's point about feelings -- "nobody responded, nobody cares". Regardless of whether the list is almost silent or is full of posts. * Now, when we post to Psyber-L we are mostly making an attempt to uncover stuff, to get stuff out and said -- whether it's Wilbur, cutting through poetic bullshit to get to the meat of the thing, or Charles, working a post into sufficient "poetry" to make it sing its truth... we are digging, in either case, for what we care to have said, what we *care* to say... When that caring is met with an immediate response, we feel sooo gratified -- because the medium has allowed a level of intimacy, perhaps with a person on another continent, which repays us for the "uncovering" we just did. And once we have a taste of that, and uncover some more, and *don't* get a response, we can feel terribly out on a limb. On mailing lists -- the kind that encourage heart as well as mind, at least -- we can "open up" and "uncover stuff" and so forth, and get *enough* response to feed *back* to us that this openness was worthwhile, most of the time. But that's partly at least because we're mailing scattershot, because of eight people who might like to respond, the chances are that at least one will have the time to do so. So -- and I think this goes to the heart of the "synchronous" / "asynchronous" issue as well as the "too slow" / "too fast" issue, that they may be one and the same -- the *reality* is that list volume depends more on what time particular individuals have to read and respond to posts than anything else, and that the list is in fact "too slow" any time a particular post of ours goes unanswered and "too fast" any time we don't have time to answer a post we'd like to answer... And this is *regardless* of whether there has been a lull of two weeks with hardly any posts, or a sudden flurry of activity with twenty posts in three days... * So a part of what I'm saying here is that what we call "experience" is often more a matter of what expanation ("story") we give ourselves than anything native to the events themselves "outside us". And a part is that if we question our experience, ie question the story we tell ourselves, and try to separate the story from the experience as such, we will uncover further layers of the story, further layers of emotion, and thus experience our experience more richly -- and also have a more adequate story to tell. And that the key experiences on a list such as this have very little to do with the quantity of posts, and almost everything to do with the vulnerability with which we post, and the way we perceive that vulnerability to be rewarded or ignored... * Welcome again, Cheryl, hope this helps, Walter... Wilbur, I really wish you'd say something in response to my two posts responding to yours about poetry... Marie, again I wish I'd had more time to respond to your recent posts, Hoon you're a marvel... Susan... any words seem superfluous beyond saying my heart goes out to you... Best to all, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:59:44 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: IRC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear all I'll take over the IRC thing since nobody else is volunteering and it was my suggestion anyway so I kind of feel responsible for it. I am going to suggest next Thursday night, since I suspect the majority of the people here are American, I suggest leaving a channel open for 3 hours from 11.30 pm my time which is god knows when for Walter but 6.30 Eastern time in the states. Please email me or to the list if your interested and I'll give details of how to get on irc and where to go if your not sure. Also names for the channel would be appreciated, I kind of like #Hatsoff, but then I am peculiar anyway. I am not going to close the channel so that we are the only ones that can get in, though there are pros and cons to this, maybe it will bring others to the list that just stop by to see what we are about, providing we can think of a title for the channel that would perhaps provoke interest. Dont think we'll be bothered with too many time wasters or net pervs since they mostly hang out on other types of channel. For safetys sake I suggest none of the women use their real names however, as thats never advisable in any case. I think the first irc meeting should be really an introduction to each other and seeing how we can interact rather than a heavy topical discussion. If nobody has any objection I'll take over this project in that I'll coordinate the irc aspect and if it becomes something that we think can derive any benefit from, perhaps consider registering the channel etc. Please let me know those who know anything about this if your preference is for dal, under or eff nets, though we could take it to one of the lesser used nets, the only thing I am worried about really is Lag, something which dalnet seems to be consistantly acquainted with. Any other suggestions on this subject? Dolores _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:14:26 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Sad news Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Susan, I can only say that though I can't truly realise how you must be feeling now, I can only imagine that the loss of your mother must feel like part of you has been gone from this world too. I am sure her heaven is now whatever she most wanted it to be, and that wherever she is she is still part of you, and that she will always be with you in your heart and memories, and perhaps in that way its only the physical part of her thats passed on, and the rest is still alive inside of you and everybody else that knew or loved her. Parts of your mother will live on in you, and in your children, as you eventually live on in them and theirs, and in that way we are all eternal on earth as well too in the new beauty of wherever our souls reside. Thats at least what I think Susan, and I wish I had the insight to say things that would comfort you most, but I do know that grief is a thing that we must endure alone, which is perhaps the unkindest and most painfull aspect of it. You can really only share it on a superficial level, and nothing really now but time will take away the rawness of it. Then after a time, the memories come and they don't bring sadness any more, but joy and a warmth and a peace with everything, not the hurt or the pain that maybe they bring now. I wish I could help Susan, and I know I can't, but I am thinking of you and I'd like to give you a real big hug again, so consider yourself hugged and thought about and if theres anything I can do, even if you just want to email talk, let me know. Love Dolores _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:38:55 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: Sad news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Susan, Sorry for your loss. I hope your mother's passing brings the opportunity to celebrate her life and your connection with it. If I can borrow from Marie ... Bright Blessings! ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:19:55 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Cheryl Foltos Subject: Re: Sad News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Susan, Although I'm new to the list and we've never "spoken", I want to offer my condolences on the passing of your mother. Loosing a mother happens only once in life but the relationship never dies. My own mother passed away three months ago and my heart goes out to you. Many years ago a friend told me that our parents help us enter the world and we help them leave it. If you'd like to "talk" in any way, I'd be happy to be t/here. I hope there are people there to hug and hold you. Sincerely, Cheryl Foltos _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 20:20:10 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Sad news In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Susan, A bough breaks. *** My wish is for blessings for you in this hard moment. If I may excerpt May Sarton: The words I hear are strength, laughter, endurance. Old woman I meet you deep inside myself. There in the rootbed of fertility, World without end, as the legend tells it. Under the words you are my silence. *** God Willing, may Mercy Be, HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 08:34:26 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: Sad news Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Susan, Suffering is temporary, joy is permanent. It is my experience after lossing many near relatives. My mother died 35 years ago, but she is living in me, always. I hug you in your sorrow. Anita At 06:16 1997-06-20 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Friends--Pardon the "listness" of this, but it seemed the quickest >way to let people know and time (as well as my brain) is a bit scrambled >right now. My mother passed on quietly in her sleep at about 5:00 this >morning. Thankfully I was still here--I was scheduled to leave shortly >after to catch a plane to South Dakota to teach a class in Rapid City. >Burial will be tomorrow and a memorial service on Monday. If anyone needs >to reach me, I will be here in North Carolina at 704-488-2449 and still >check e-mail regularly (it seems a safe place to sit and cry). Thanks for >all of your support. > Susan > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 03:49:08 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Sad news In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Susan, I am back from three days in our holidays home in the hills where the phone was on the blink. I add my condolences, and I hope that the words from people here have made this time easier, and richer for you. =20 I have had deaths in the family in more recent years, but have been thinking about my mother as it happens, who died 15 years a go. It was not a time of great grief for me, as I had learnt, for my own good, not be too influenced by her, the grief was earlier, and more complex. However, lately, to my surprise, I have been feeling her presence in me in a genetic way. There is just no denying that her genes are in me. I feel her in my nature, a peculiar intimacy. I share this with the hope that it will help you grieve, and reflect, and share more of your story in good time. Also so that you know that the events in your life bring these reflections more to the surface for me, and highlight our interconnection. I hope the events around your mothers death are going well and that there is a celebration her life, that the joy and sadness are closely paired.=20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:15:37 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Sad news In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Susan: Please accept my sorrow at your loss. I was away for a three day workshop in Psychodrama and just returned to see your post. I lost my own Mom 35 years ago this July 29th, she was only 43 years old, and I still miss her every day, but I also know she is with me daily in many, many ways. Love and Peace. Janell _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:59:12 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: IRC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dolores wrote: > > Dear all > > I'll take over the IRC thing since nobody else is volunteering and it was my > suggestion anyway so I kind of feel responsible for it. > > I am going to suggest next Thursday night, since I suspect the majority of > the people here are American, I suggest leaving a channel open for 3 hours > from 11.30 pm my time which is god knows when for Walter but 6.30 Eastern > time in the states. > Thanks for setting this up Dolores. Much as I'd be interested, unfortunately the timing won't work on my end since 6:30 is in the midst of prime family time. Perhaps others have already responded offline to the list but I certainly hope people will confirm whether or not they are interested. There's nothing quite so disconcerting as inviting folks to a get together and nobody shows. ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:03:10 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: IRC In-Reply-To: <33AFA880.436@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Perhaps others have already responded offline to > the list but I certainly hope people will confirm whether or not they > are interested. There's nothing quite so disconcerting as inviting > folks to a get together and nobody shows. I am still trying to figure out what time that is here -- and set up mirc -- it all feels like a lot of work, but may get there yet. A bit snowed under at the moment. Lists work for me, because i acn choose the time! =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:14:28 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: cars and railroads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Psyber Folks :) Either shortly before or soon after I subscribed to Psyber-L, I had a dream in which I was driving in my car alone. I was driving in the general direction I knew I needed to go, but I was becoming confused about the specific directions. Eventually I came upon a group of people who were building a railroad. These people who were working on the railroad were warmer and more open than any group of workers I had ever seen. They welcomed me in to a kind of clubhouse they had, where they were celebrating someone's birthday after a tough day of work. I was astonished that this group of workers took such delight in both their work and play, and spent some time with them at their celebration. I knew I still had another place to go, though, and after asking the railroad workers the direction and difficulty of where I was going, wished my friends, the railroad builders, well and got in my car and began my journey alone again. There was/is no doubt in my mind that this group of railroad builders was Psyber-L, and that my dreamworld provided me with a wonderful analogy to what has and is happening on this listserv, building the tracks which connect people to each other and allowing them to travel to new and exciting places. Well, this long winded dream revelation for me is about saying that I know it's time for me to get in my car and begin my drive alone again. I don't much like ending relationships, individual or group, by simply disappearing. I am signing off Psyber-L and would like to thank you all for the time I have spent here, the connections and disconnections, understandings and misunderstandings, and would like to wish you all well :))) Sheryl Susan... I too was sorry to hear about your mother and my thoughts are with you. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:06:05 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Don Corriveau Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS, SURVEY DATA, ANECDOTES, AND COMMENTS Comments: To: Clinical-Psychologists@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, PSYCHOEDUCATIONAL_ASSESS@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU, CLINICAL-PSYCHOLOGISTS@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, psy-media@listp.apa.org, psycho-pharm@PsyCom.Net, psychoanalytic-studies@sheffield.ac.uk, PSYCHNEWS@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, PSYBUS@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, ASSESS-P@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, NETPSY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, PSYCH-CI@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, COMMUNITY-PSYCHOLOGY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, MENTAL-HEALTH-WORKER@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU, ml@ceus.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" CALL FOR PAPERS, SURVEY DATA, ANECDOTES, AND COMMENTS (Please excuse cross postings to newsgroups pertaining to Mental Health Professionals) What impact does the Internet have on the Mental Health Professions? I'm developing a paper or collection of papers that will address this question. Please consider contributing in any or all of the following ways: 1) Submitting a brief paper for consideration in a "collection of papers." 2) Submitting comments or anecdotal accounts that I will integrate into an editorial feature. 3) Completing a brief survey that will only take 2-5 minutes time to complete. The survey can be found at http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/dr-don/invntory.htm . The survey is mirrored at http://ceus.com/invntory.htm If you plan to submit comments or anecdotes, you may wish to view the survey to consider the various ways in which the Internet may impact our professions. Submit comments or anecdotes to SURVEY@CEUS.COM and include the words IMPACT OF THE INTERNET in the subject of your message. Do not reply directly to the "sender" of this message as it may be sent to all newsgroup recipients. Please feel free to send this message to your colleagues or your favorite newsgroups and mailing lists. Thank you for your assistance in this project. Donald P. Corriveau, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, UMass Dartmouth Provost, WebEd Assistant Editor, PsychNews International survey@ceus.com, http://ceus.com _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:17:08 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: IRC In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970620205701.300f346e@easynet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I'll take over the IRC thing since nobody else is volunteering and it was my >suggestion anyway so I kind of feel responsible for it. > >I am going to suggest next Thursday night, since I suspect the majority of >the people here are American, I suggest leaving a channel open for 3 hours >from 11.30 pm my time which is god knows when for Walter but 6.30 Eastern >time in the states. > >Please email me or to the list if your interested and I'll give details of >how to get on irc and where to go if your not sure. > When I get home from work it will be about 930pm eastern standard time USA, so I'll check in on the IRC net and channel you specify Dolores. *** HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 04:18:15 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: IRC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >I am going to suggest next Thursday night, since I suspect the = majority of > >the people here are American, I suggest leaving a channel open for 3 = hours > >from 11.30 pm my time which is god knows when for Walter but 6.30 = Eastern > >time in the states. I think we are 12 hrs ahead of london. So If i look at 11.30 am friday that should work. =20 > When I get home from work it will be about 930pm eastern standard time = USA, > so I'll check in on the IRC net and channel you specify Dolores. We still need that specified? =20 I tried to d/l MIRC, to my laptop, I have it on my Desktop, but will be away from that on friday, and ran out of space! I'll get there though! =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:15:28 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: IRC Comments: cc: Dolores In-Reply-To: <33bcecb7.145669167@smtp.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> When I get home from work it will be about 930pm eastern standard time USA, >> so I'll check in on the IRC net and channel you specify Dolores. > >We still need that specified? > Yeah, it's kind of like the postal address. In any case I'm home from work and alas :-( no notification of where the #Hatsoff channel is... I'm on the undernet IRC net in the #Hatsoff channel I created with the /join command. Where are you? *** HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 02:20:58 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: IRC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen, I have been looking around,=20 > I'm on the undernet IRC net in the #Hatsoff channel I created with the > /join command. >=20 > Where are you? There seem to be a lot of Undernets -- but i think i have found it and am there now! Waltz _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:34:48 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: IRC transcript I (silence) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *** Channel created at Friday, June 27, 1997 2:14:15 AM *** Oka has set the topic on channel #Hatsoff to Welcome to Psyberia *** waltz (walter@p39-m4-ch7.dialup.xtra.co.nz) has joined channel #Hatsoff waltz: Ok I'm here! Oka: hey walter! waltz: HooN u here? Oka: yeah, I was away but now I'm here. waltz: Wow we actually made it. Oka: It has turned out to be very impromptu. hoon: I'm catching my breath from delivering a steamed potato. waltz: Well I have no idea whatr i am doing -- so find it amazing that it has worked to this point. hoon: There's not much more to work (!) my friend. hoon: Welcome, congratulations. waltz: I wonder where D/L is? hoon: Dolores never really confirmed the final arrangement unless I missed a communique. waltz: I didnt see it either. waltz: Still you message did the trick. hoon: The round trip between me and you is 4 seconds, Phoenix Arizona to Auckland via Cleveland, Ohio. hoon: wow! hoon: I feel this is somewhat momentous to be communicating with you in near real time. waltz: Somehow it also has to get to me here in my holiday house in the hills a good thousand or more km away from auckland waltz: Momentus, yes -- very different. hoon: I note your IRC server is in Auckland. It probably is the main IRC node for ? waltz: I just picked it off the list, as it was the only one in NZ hoon: Anyway...we were both online tonight (for me,) and for you it is Friday late in the morning? *** JimC (jfcalder@207.245.233.201) has joined channel #hatsoff hoon: Greetings Jim. waltz: Hi Jimc! JimC: Hello Walter and Hoon JimC: Just got done with the day and picked up Hoon's post, thought I'd drop in waltz: here it is friday 2.45pm hoon: Good timing. hoon: :-) JimC: It's 10:45 in the evening here hoon: Here is where? JimC: Ontario Canada JimC: Where abouts are you? hoon: And Walter could you mark for us your time ... and day? hoon: I'm in Cleveland Ohio I'm pretty sure... hoon: Got it gents, it's Friday in NZ. Neat. JimC: So Hoon and I are in the same time zone and Walter you're about 16 hours ahead of us. waltz: We are always a bit ahead of you. We will be a popular place for the millennium JimC: Lately, I feel most are ahead of me. hoon: I read somewhere some small pacific islands have moved the international timeline to favor their millenial festivities and they're building hotels like mad. JimC: It wouldn't surprise me. waltz: I have a sense of it being an important occasion, though i hate being that much part of the crowd. hoon: Walter is this your first IRC session? waltz: Almost the first, had a small taste of someone sendingf scrips at me in colour! waltz: how experienced are u 2 at this? JimC: This is my second attempt JimC: Walter, what's a scrips? hoon: I don't spend much time on IRC but I am the channel-meister for netdynam and we get together on occasion. waltz: Apparently one can pre program things and send them. waltz: how does that go hoon? hoon: IRC can execute perl-like code and binaries can be sent from client to client using a protocol called DCC. waltz: I notice i am more conscious of being with you two in Ohio and Ontario waltz: Impressive JimC: This is more conversational hoon: Much more, and not so easy to rehearse, right? waltz: It is as if i dont have the time to meditate JimC: Truly JimC: and my typing wants to stutter (or the equivalent) JimC: I have the sense that psybernet is in trouble somehow, is this just me or do either of you think so too? waltz: I dont -- but i do know what you mean. I have a post brewing re Sherylls leaving -- tracks to where? hoon: I don't sense this but then I count on such things evolving to [not trouble] . JimC: Many of the posts seem like messages in a bottle, sent without expectation of response. waltz: I have been wanting to do more professional psyber wk on the net, and that is happening hoon: Jim, that' hoon: an interesting way to put it. I know I'm not that sensitive hoon: to the perturbations which seem to smooth out over the long term. waltz: I your notion of our waltz: attempt to be synchronous in this asynchronous environment, I waltz: enjoyed the observation! waltz: your notion of our waltz: attempt to be synchronous in this asynchronous environment, I waltz: enjoyed the observation! waltz: oops i tried to copy something in -- didnt work as expected. waltz: That conversation jim, was that in a bottle? JimC: I'm pretty new to this medium so perhaps naivity has its advantages waltz: It seems like it could still be alive, if slow. JimC: It wasn't intended to be, I'm hoping for more discussion JimC: There is perhaps a tension between those who want to be synchronous and those of us who are there because it is asynchronous? waltz: More discussion, yes, perhaps we need more people? hoon: Sometimes it seems the particles fall out of the solution, then it needs to be shaken up again. JimC: Either more, or busier 'particles' waltz: Jim do you count yourself as one who wants the a-- or the synchronous? JimC: Asynchonous - life is too busy for me to schedule even one more thing. waltz: I think the lack of business is part of the story -- we could be very busy, but there is a *mood* that is not quite worked through? waltz: Perhaps a lack of focus? JimC: Its like we all want to talk about different things hoon: Not enough of a critical mass of players? waltz: I prefer tha asunchronous too, but do like to think of the list as *interactive*, not just a series of articles -- definitly a discussion hoon: But Walter you touch upon mood... what more do you have to say? hoon: mood hmmmm. JimC: I like interactive, but without the demand for simultaneity that conversation requires waltz: Here we are on the theme of *silence* again! hoon: One central fact is that most of the dream group has not remained *particularly* active in Psyber-L . waltz: Mood, dream gp, not very active but influential, even to the extent they come out of the corners when somone dies! waltz: It is as if in tht gp we bonded. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:36:19 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: IRC transcript II (riddle) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hoon: Part of the mood is *enigma* I feel, but I don't feel it is bad. ;^| waltz: I thnk a closed and purposeful gp like drmgp takes us further into this psyber realm JimC: Or is it a journey into self via a different medium? waltz: No not *bad* -- a place to come to and meet after other psyber experience -- that was always the idea i had. waltz: Jim, you mean into the self rather than the psyber realm i mentioned? I think of it as the same! hoon: Actually I'm not sure I agree because the idea of enigma is that we came back into Psyber-L and we brought the *riddle* back with us! hoon: So Psyber-L is in a way 'riddled', full of holes but also holy but perhaps unsure of itself, not fully 'reincarnated' ... JimC: Walter, I guess I'm thinking of the self as the container, and the psyber realm as a component of it JimC: Hoon, i need to understand your def'n of 'enigma' in this context hoon: Jim, enigma as mood: bafflement, not easy, puzzled, maybe a bit lost... hoon: the asychronous is enigmatic itself, at 'odds' with our linear sensibility... JimC: ok, in that case I'm with you, its a good description of how I'm experiencing psyber-l JimC: except its not that different from letter writing - just faster? waltz: I look to the list description a lot -- and we do what we are there for -- and i know as i facilitate another list professionally, that i have learnt it all in Psyber-l hoon: enigma comes form a wonderful Greek work *ainigma* hoon: puzzle hoon: anima wioth an *ig* added! :-) JimC: I'm chuckling at the words artfulness waltz: Letters that go to *many* people, and which we can use to copy & paste -- i think that transforms the medium into a new one. hoon: What I mean by reincarnation vis a vis Psyber-L is the death it seemed to suffer during the dream group... hoon: it hasn't come *all the way* back in a way. Cannot the sense of the group in a way be a protagonist, a meta-protagonist, Walter? So one riddle might be it's reincarnation, about its *next life* ... waltz: Hoon, u mean the death on Psyber-l as wth active members departed? hoon: No I'm wandering about the feeling of what happens to the group when an offshoot, the dream group, suddenly comes so alive. waltz: Yes the gp as a whole could be the protagonist -- it usually is but often one person embodies that -- a parallel process. waltz: Perhaps that is wht the *healing circle* was about! hoon: One way to look at it would be to speculate about how the experience of the one affects the experience of the other group. hoon: Maybe it was Walter! waltz: We need to be better able to handle off shoots like the Drm Event -- did y see my post suggesting someone else facilitates? hoon: Then the hat metaphor becomes something again: I almost sense an image of *lid* i.e. the top of the container. JimC: Yes I did - and I'm curious at the lack of response hoon: But *lack of response* is a GREAT riddle! waltz: Jim I am too! List facilitation is one of the main purposes of Psyber-l and there is no response to that? waltz: A riddle indeed! hoon: (Here we are in the mode to just *bring it up*!) JimC: Much as I'd like to try to facilitate, the time just isn't there waltz: And to sit with the riddle patiently is OK too. JimC: So is the riddle "Why no response?" or is the quiet the response and the question is re. its meaning? hoon: It is interesting to try to recollect what it was like in Psyber-L before the dream group idea was raised but after most of the dg participants had showed up in Psyberia. waltz: *Time* I think i justify all of this with very little time, in that Psybernet is potentially an income earner for me. hoon: I think the riddle *why no response*? has no satisfactory answer. ;) JimC: What was it like Hoon? waltz: Hoon, the dg participants? You mean just after i took it off the BBS, and on to Lsoft? hoon: Before you had set up the separate mechanism but after Charles, Anita, Robert, Marie had posted their introductions etc. waltz: No satisfactory answer, but interesting speculations -- fear of the task -- is my speculation. hoon: Walter I can only speak for my self; I have a somewhat self-indulgent attitude about responding! hoon: Oddly enough here we are only because of the synching up of our own online time with enough of a prospect to find our way to IRC. waltz: H, as in you dont want too seem self indulgent? Or it is ok to be si? hoon: I have no problem with self-indulgence. ;-] hoon: My non-response is self-indulgent you see. But you just hear silence! hoon: (by the way I'm logging this and perhaps we might post it to the group tomorrow!) waltz: I see. waltz: fine by me JimC: I'm ok too waltz: Is that self indulgent? JimC: Self indulgence is in the eye of the beholder hoon: Do we forget that behind the silence are these individual narratives? hoon: Example: where is Dolores?! waltz: I dont see hoons non response as indulgent -- not till he explains it. waltz: What is the best thing that could happen to/in Psyber-L in your opinion? JimC: Right now, probably asleep, its about 6 am in the UK waltz: Are we late for this meetingg? JimC: I think we're here 5 hours after her suggested start waltz: Oh really! waltz: How the hell did we do that! hoon: "I suggest leaving a channel open for 3 hours from 11.30 pm my time which is god knows when for Walter but 6.30 Eastern time in the states." JimC: Well I think Hoon and I both said we couldn't make it at that time but we have a much less tricky time conversion to do. hoon: so said Dolores. waltz: Narratives -- stories -- that has come up recently hasnt it, that we retell our stories. hoon: Anyway here we are and I don't know what I would like to see with Psyber-L. JimC: I'd like more sense of engagement in the group, the sense that we're prepared to follow some of the same threads JimC: less of 'message in a bottle' hoon: What is that engagement about? waltz: I like hearing the answers, and notice how different we are. hoon: What is engagement psychologically? JimC: Hmmm, active listening, the sense of being heard even if not agreed with. waltz: I'd like engagment too -- as well as a sense of building psybernet, more fully, purposefully. JimC: So how can things become more purposeful? Especially since for some (like you Hoon) the engagement is unimportant and even undesirable? hoon: I suppose I could be thrown off... waltz: Psychologically? In this context it means *present* and perhaps not so purposeful ? hoon: waltz: I have been thinking of combining online with f2f -- for example getting a Psybernet committee going here -- or promoting a dream group which uses both media waltz: All that comes from a feeling of need ing . . . something to move on . . . JimC: That would be interesting and would probably help that part of the group hoon: Walter, that is good, go for it, but what about this riddled fixed/unfixed group which if has anything it has this odd sort of history going back to the BBS and then back into your head! _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:37:20 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: IRC transcript III (history) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" JimC: My experience with my own team is that without f2f the cohesion and collaboration simply doesn't get built. waltz: but is it a sort of cop out of the cyber wld to not stick with this on line process? waltz: Hoon, hoon: Then are we realistic about the limitations of a group as constituted like Psyber-L for which f2f is not possible in total? waltz: i think you are engaged in this! JimC: Cop out or acceptance of reality hoon: I never said I wasn't engaged...I said I was self-indulgent in my non-response! hoon: And in my response... waltz: I think i have had some very profaound experience here in psyber space hoon: Me too. hoon: It was quite profound just getting into psyber space. JimC: Me three hoon: And also heavy discovering Psyber-l back in August of 1995. waltz: I dont think it would be a cop out, but adding f2f would not solve the riddle .. . JimC: No it wouldn't solve it but perhaps the key is in the history. JimC: Hoon, tell me how it was in 95 when you found the group hoon: The first things I searched on when I hit the web in 95 were Jung, Monk, Rumi and 'geometric patterns'. hoon: Let's see, in '95 there was Miles and / let me think here... hoon: I read the BBS archives in their entirety... waltz: Jim, as hoon says its history goes back into my head, it is a personal story. Before hoon was here there were several others who i did do f2f wk with here and had dreadful falling out with. JimC: So what made it (psyber-l) special? waltz: I came across the poem of the three angels knocking -- and even though all that was a riddle for me i recalled the intensity of that game with Charles. hoon: Walter do you recall the dream from 95 about the room with all the chairs faced every which way? waltz: I'm just going to stoke the fire hoon: "It is working, but has a slow participation rate at present -- I seem to do most of the talking! Hang in there -- I am confident it will be a delightful place as the need for meta communication at a jungian sort of psych level about the medium must have a place." (Those are quotes from an email to me from you Walter in August 95 right before I subbed to Psyber-L.) JimC: Whew! that's a mouthful! JimC: and doesn't sound very different from the way things are now. waltz: Jim sorry if that is such jargon, but i still like what i said then! JimC: No problem on the jargon, I worked for many years in a psych hospital. waltz: No, all that time we meditate as it were on the process -- psyber navel gazing in silence waltz: what did you do there hoon: Also, another word from which ainigma is funded is the Greek, ainissesthai, which means to *speak in riddles* :-) JimC: and occasionaly interrupted by the passions of dolores and wilbur JimC: At the hospital I was an 'orderly' althought there was relatively little physical intervention - mostly i did supportive and recreational stuff with the patients waltz: hoon, you are a dag! ( is that only nz language?) JimC: Dag? waltz: Dag -- funny chap -- though it has more complex origins JimC: Just read through the last few minutes worth, amazing how easy it is to get onto many simultaneous tracks! waltz: Bottles again? hoon: Walter, you wrote this, perhaps quoted it back to me in 95: THE EYES ARE THE WINDOW to the soul, and the Psybernet BBS provides another such window. waltz: Not really, i have a sense of a thread that makes sense and is connected. JimC: Not intentionally, probably comes from the slight lag of typing offline hoon: Similarly you, back then, explained to me about the first big transition for Psybernet, this way: "Fire. Flames as I have never known them. Relationships have faltered to the extent that I write here as if Psybernet was in the past. The original prolific few have gone. There are many reasons but one is that words are sharp little things. Swords. Perhaps matches, because there was some heat." JimC: Walter, the tracks do converge - but superficially are very divergent. waltz: Psybernet BBS -- yes -- but that was a grander vision than Psyber-L. It included both one to one and group projects -- much as Psybernet does now it is on the web. The Psyber-L is not the same as something like the dreamevent -- which really is more of what i'd call a window into the soul. (not to discount psyber-l hoon: The visions change but the riddles remain. hoon: Maybe Pysber-L longs for Soul! hoon: In anima terms it does not want to be the 'weak sister'. JimC: I think its searching for a soul. JimC: Weak, strong or otherwise JimC: it would bring a focus JimC: I'm afraid I'm going to have to sign off soon - I'm getting tired waltz: I m hungry -- but it is good to do this with you noth -- looking forward to seeing it in the list! hoon: I'm okay with our pouring here tonight. waltz: I enjoy seeing thoise word of mine quoted back hoon -- they are important in the history -- in the story! JimC: I've enjoyed it too - being synchronous has its merits! JimC: Good night Hoon and good afternoon Walter! *** Signoff: JimC (Leaving) hoon: Good night waltz: I am thinking Psyber-l might need a soul, and be searching, but that it is Psybernet as something larger that we might all look to. waltz: A final thought i think, i'm going to need to go! hoon: "We imagine a world where anything can happen. Freedom! That is the one thing we like to believe... that in the imaginal world we are free." (Walter Logeman in '95) waltz: good night hoon: good night, my friend, sweet dreams! _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 13:48:50 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Accounts Comments: To: Dolores In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970628073801.2787868e@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores, and Psyber-l > Dear Walter, >=20 > First of all I am writing to ask if you can post a quick note to the = list > apologising for my absence the other day, on irc. I have lost my = Internet > account, ie my ex was told he can no longer use it at very short = notice, as > it was a freebie and they found out it had been a freebie for about a = year > longer than they intended. Sending this to you and the list -- hope that is ok! > Did anybody turn up for the irc meet? I managed to get on for half an = hour > from a cybercafe, but I was stumbling in the dark not knowing who = anybody > was or what their nicks were. We got there, and you will be able to have a look at the result on the archives: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html HooN kindly deposited our taking into the list. It was fun and has left me with more riddles about psybernet than before, but also some answers!=20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz www.psybernet.co.nz ICQ: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:27:00 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: June 1997 on Psyber-L In-Reply-To: <33ad62bf.62294303@smtp.es.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Jim mentioned in IRC the other night that we seem to be sending messages in bottles. He wanted more engagment. I spoke of the mood here, hoon found it an enigma. I see many topics that we have touched on and am optimistic that we return to them. I am more optimistic, after HooN was able to quote back in IRC things I'd said years ago. It was great to know someone had heard these things! I thought I'd summarise Psyber-L as I see it -- where to start? I have begun at the start of this month and here are some words from Marie: in the post called Healing Circle. > And the themes of poetic expression (the poetics of self-creation?), = and of > community -- Walter, the word that came to me in response to your = search > for a word that expresses sadness and love was one you used in a recent > post ... Yearning ... it makes me think of the sense in which a = pilgrimage > is always a search for home, for a place to belong, for shared vision = and > purpose and language and values and interests. It may be an obscure > connection, but I feel in your words a sense of nostalgia, of a deep > longing to return to a place and time that (perhaps?) never was, almost > was, almost is? At this point I immediately see many threads worth noting, and following up on! : =3D=3D Marie's return after a long absence. =3D=3D Delightful to me, especially the possibilities that Marie opened in the warm post I quote from -- I hope those will come to more fruition than they have. =3D=3D The healing circle =3D=3D The event on the list is over -- but the discussion? I think not. Can it be done? I don't mean having a healing circle in ps -- but rather can we actually bring a discussion to a satisfying closure? =3D=3D poetic expression =3D=3D I am poised at the point in this discussion where the poetic consciousness, and making poetry could be seen to be linked, linked especially to what we do here -- what we do in any process that attends to the psyche. I noticed, but perhaps did not fully appreciate the juxtaposition of the poem by Octavio Paz posted by Simon and the poem by Howard Nemerov. Still on the first day of this month Charles and Wilbur's discussion bear witness to the depth we can go here and to how the discussion relates to the very fabric of the web we weave here. =20 =3D=3D community =3D=3D As the list was reduced by the requirement to confirm membership, we have reduced from 100 to 36 members -- we are now at 40 with four new members (welcome). I have a stronger sense of . . . solidity with the current numbers, we know more about our membership, but isd it community? Should it be? What is it?=20 =3D=3D Facilitation =3D=3D Both the healing circle and this quote from Marie draws a lot of attention to me -- my circle -- my need for longing for a place=20 . . . I want to facilitate the list, not make it into some healing place for me! It seems important though not to neglect these personal aspects. Would it be better if I didn't? Is this airing of the counter transference counter productive? =3D=3D Technological Angels =3D=3D What was that about? The words are evocative, and remind me of Jack Kerouac book title Desolation Angels. I began to review chapters from a book: Tolstoy's Dictaphone, Technology and the Muse. The words also evoke that theme for me. Recall Dan mentioning the meta-life of groups? Are we birthing some sort of technological angel? Tara who introduced the words is till on the list! Good to see you survived the big purge. =3D=3D Gender =3D=3D I sense a whole zone of silence around the word, the topic. Am I the only one who senses it? Shall we just keep that zone silent? ~~~ During the month we also had posts about God's web pages, metaphor, IRC, an introduction from Cheryl, and=20 With Susan's sad news I had a sense that there are people here who feel connected, and that there is a presence that Psyber-L can carry even through periods of silence. ~~~ =3D=3D Mail Flow Question =3D=3D Jim, in the IRC, once again has drawn attention to the state of the list, how it flows - messages in bottles? =3D=3D Want to Facilitate this List for a while? =3D=3D Buried in one of the emails I made an important proposal: > Could someone else have a go at > facilitation ~ that would be a new project in its own right! It > would like that . . . I bet the list > would have quite a deferent feel. I would still be here, perhaps > more in the background, and perhaps, available on or offlist or > both, to discuss the process, "supervise". Enough of a summary -- apologies for what might be overlooked -- please add to my effort! Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz www.psybernet.co.nz ICQ: 196356 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:12:11 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: WFSchmidt <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Tadaima Hi all, Tadaima, I am back from Japan. After an absence of several months I signed up again. For my Psyber-L communications I use my second given name which is FRITZ. By training I am a chemical physicist with a strong interest in languages, communication, and psychology. I joined the list first in April of last year. During my stay in Japan I followed the discusion by reading the archives. I am looking forward to receiving interesting mail and to a participation in the discussions. Regards to all, FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L