To: Walter Logeman Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9705" From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)" Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:46 -0400 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 06:10:32 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: players MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Simon G. Trask wrote: > > While searching back through the list for something else, I came across the > following and thought it might be useful to reintroduce/restate at this > point. This is Walter responding to Robert (from a post titled 'Re: > ideology', 11th Feb 97, for anyone who wants to chase up context): > > >> Perhaps the list needs to be *directed* and *managed* so that we can > >> return to the original vision, so that this place can feel more like > >> home. > > > >I think this is crisp expression of the dialectical concern here: > >can order and meaning come naturally, organically, via the > >fractals of the group life, synchronistically . . . OR should it > >be imposed, directed, structured. This them runs through our > >discussion. It sometimes takes a gender form, sometimes a head > >heart one. > > 'Players' as a metaphor puts me in mind of the corporate paradigm with its > inbuilt notions of hierarchy, territory, competition, setting clear > goals/task orientation, climbing to the top, survival of the fittest/social > darwinism... I guess the next step is figuring out the team players. > > I find all the metaphors for the list and list interaction that crop up > here fascinating. Can they all co-exist as different but equally valid ways > of shedding light on list process and nature, or will one prove to have the > best genes (be the best meme)... > I certainly hope its not a competitive thing (may the best meme win,Yecch!) > Simon to JimC, > > Adopting the 'player' perspective, I'd say that, appropriately enough, you > became a player with your 'No Room at the Inn' post. Talking of which (and > on the other hand)... maybe it would be more accurate to say that everyone > who posts to the list is a player but there are lead players (stars), > supporting players and bit-part players (I have no illusions about which > category I'm in)... while it's the lurkers who are the audience, of course. > Just a thought. All these different ways of seeing are giving me a headache! > > Simon > You're right Simon there are a lot of metaphors about. With "Room at the Inn" I was trying to get across the feelings I was having as a newcomer here and the sense that it was like being at a dinner theatre. Rather than become a 'player' I'd prefer to sit down at a table with some of the other guests and conversationally explore ideas, feelings and experiences. Instead I'm finding that posting to psybernet engenders in me the same feelings I experience before making a presentation (nervousness, fear of appearing foolish etc.) so, since I'm having performance anxiety, you must be correct in defining me as having become a 'player'. Now my question is, how do I withdraw from the stage without leaving the table? ...JimC _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:13:23 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Mimes in action MIME-Version: 1.0 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:33:55 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: Mimes in action Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In the jargon of AOL chatrooms: LOL! Ronni At 06:13 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ ...... I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it. ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:51:08 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: August Goforth Subject: Re: Mimes in action ILISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 09:18:17 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Mimes in action MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit \\||||||// \\||||||// . . . . \/ \/ \__/ \__/ / \ / \ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 19:06:02 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: Mimes in action Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:18 1997-05-03 -0700, you wrote: >\\||||||// \\||||||// > . . . . > \/ \/ > \__/ \__/ > / \ / \ What do you mean by mimes in action? An ancient Greek farce? The clowning? The Art of imitating gestures? The art of ridiculing? Your message is so cryptic, that I can't understand it. Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:54:55 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Mimes in action MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anita A small technical detail (hair should have been on heads, not to the side) :) As for what they mean ... ... tight lipped ... active ... silent ... intrigue > What do you mean by mimes in action? An ancient Greek farce? The > clowning? The Art of imitating gestures? The art of ridiculing? Your > message is so cryptic, that I can't understand it. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:42:07 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "arlene fay s." Subject: Re: Mimes in action Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:18 AM 5/3/97 -0700, Sieur de Cyberie wrote: >\\||||||// \\||||||// > . . . . > \/ \/ > \__/ \__/ > / \ / \ > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 06:38:17 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: players In-Reply-To: <33686C18.519A@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JimC, Simon, Robert . . . All Jim in his post is responding to Simon, who is quoting an old post (feb) where I respond to Robert. =20 Robert wrote(back in Feb.): > > >> Perhaps the list needs to be *directed* and *managed* so that we = can > > >> return to the original vision, so that this place can feel more = like > > >> home. I responded, (back in Feb.): > > > I think this is crisp expression of the dialectical concern here: > > > can order and meaning come naturally, organically, via the > > > fractals of the group life, synchronistically . . . OR should it > > > be imposed, directed, structured. This theme runs through our > > > discussion. It sometimes takes a gender form, sometimes a head > > > heart one. I think it was useful to restate this Simon. It brings to the fore the question that concerns me and has been underlying many posts, and the nature of the list, and the facilitation mode . . . I have not written much, but these questions have not left my mind all wee . . . they are difficult and I have written on the subject, and then not posted . . . fearing that my "mere musings" would do no good . . . I need to rethink things fully. =20 ~~~ Simon wrote: > > I find all the metaphors for the list and list interaction that crop = up > > here fascinating. Can they all co-exist as different but equally = valid ways > > of shedding light on list process and nature, or will one prove to = have the > > best genes (be the best meme)... In my opinion metaphors come and go, but some are more evocative, enlivening, and more shared by the other members. I think they do compete too, sometimes bringing out new aspects of the list. Charles's Train Journey metaphor captured some qualities beautifully. JimC's Dinner Theatre captures another. I have loved Anita's reference to Augean Stables. Perhaps, they d not compete, but occupy various niches. Hmmm, I think I offered a competing one to the Dinner Theatre, wanting it to be an ordinary restaurant, admittedly with a noisy table. That might be one meme fighting for the same niche. It looks though that mine is not as 'fit' as the Theatre one, because the notion of 'Players' has reached "Subject line Status". =20 Each one of these metaphors has implications for the facilitation . . . am I the publican, the Director, the cook, or a player? And what should I be? =20 Jim, > I certainly hope its not a competitive thing (may the best meme > win,Yecch!) Does it matter that one meme (one apt metaphor) might get modified, changed, or totally replaced by another as it suits the life of the list? As the player notion (meme) grabs us, as it won't go, I think it means it is useful to us, and hence 'fit'. =20 ~~~ Simon to JimC: > > Adopting the 'player' perspective, I'd say that, appropriately = enough, you > > became a player with your 'No Room at the Inn' post. Talking of which= (and > > on the other hand)... maybe it would be more accurate to say that = everyone > > who posts to the list is a player but there are lead players (stars), > > supporting players and bit-part players (I have no illusions about = which > > category I'm in)... while it's the lurkers who are the audience, of = course. > > Just a thought. All these different ways of seeing are giving me a = headache! Jim responds: > You're right Simon there are a lot of metaphors about. With "Room at > the Inn" I was trying to get across the feelings I was having as a > newcomer here and the sense that it was like being at a dinner theatre. > Rather than become a 'player' I'd prefer to sit down at a table with > some of the other guests and conversationally explore ideas, feelings > and experiences. =20 So, how is that for you now? I am thinking that there is a drama here (I am converted!) that is a good thing to recognise, to acknowledge. The simple idea of short threads on one topic and then another, (various dinner conversations) is not what is going on here . . . there is a *Drama* . . . the Sieur's mime puppets with their hair all askew, is a scene . . . people who come into this restaurant certainly would find it a strange enactment . . . Hey, the train metaphor still applies, new people are coming in all the time, others go. I don't understand the puppets one bit, but that they come . . . in this moment, from Sieur, is a *significant* development in the drama, Sieur de Cyberie, is a significant player. I find it a scary drama. I can't eat or chat while it happens. =20 Especially as the manager of the Dinner Theatre, I think . . . this play we have here is not quite right . . . not suited to the venue. =20 ~~~ Jim goes on to say: > Instead I'm finding that posting to psybernet > engenders in me the same feelings I experience before making a > presentation (nervousness, fear of appearing foolish etc.) so, since > I'm having performance anxiety, you must be correct in defining me as > having become a 'player'. Now my question is, how do I withdraw from > the stage without leaving the table? As there are *many* people not posting you may nor be alone in feeling like this, this lends weight to the metaphor, we have audience with reluctant players. Why withdraw? Perhaps you could continue to play the part, even extend it? Learn to be comfortable with it . . . or perhaps the *discomfort* belongs with the part? =20 I have a sense that there is a destiny at work here, that we don't really have much of a choice in our part. In this way Psybernet is a microcosm of life. =20 Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 06:28:43 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: Mimes in action MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sieur de Cyberie wrote: > > Anita > > A small technical detail (hair should have been on heads, not to > the side) :) As for what they mean ... > > ... tight lipped > ... active > ... silent > ... intrigue > > > What do you mean by mimes in action? An ancient Greek farce? The > > clowning? The Art of imitating gestures? The art of ridiculing? Your > > message is so cryptic, that I can't understand it. Robert: I assume this is a projection then? Perhaps a prelude to you answering some of the questions put to you here over the past weeks? Or is this another means of avoidance for you? ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 07:06:27 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: players MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Logeman wrote: > I have not written much, but these questions have not left my > mind all wee . . . they are difficult and I have written on the > subject, and then not posted . . . fearing that my "mere musings" > would do no good . . . I need to rethink things fully. > You certainly have a lot of company in this! > ~~~ > > Simon wrote: > > > I find all the metaphors for the list and list interaction that crop up > > > here fascinating. Can they all co-exist as different but equally valid ways > > > of shedding light on list process and nature, or will one prove to have the > > > best genes (be the best meme)... Walter responded to Simon and JimC: > In my opinion metaphors come and go, but some are more evocative, > enlivening, and more shared by the other members. I think they > do compete too, sometimes bringing out new aspects of the list. > Charles's Train Journey metaphor captured some qualities > beautifully. JimC's Dinner Theatre captures another. I have > loved Anita's reference to Augean Stables. > > Perhaps, they d not compete, but occupy various niches. Hmmm, I > think I offered a competing one to the Dinner Theatre, wanting it > to be an ordinary restaurant, admittedly with a noisy table. > That might be one meme fighting for the same niche. It looks > though that mine is not as 'fit' as the Theatre one, because the > notion of 'Players' has reached "Subject line Status". > > Each one of these metaphors has implications for the facilitation > . . . am I the publican, the Director, the cook, or a player? > And what should I be? I think I like publican - you could walk about making introductions, welcoming visitors - cuffing the ears of unruly guests as needed and volunteering your own opinions whenever you like (or don't like). After all Walter, IT'S YOUR HOUSE DAMMIT! > > Jim, > > I certainly hope its not a competitive thing (may the best meme > > win,Yecch!) > > Does it matter that one meme (one apt metaphor) might get > modified, changed, or totally replaced by another as it suits the > life of the list? As the player notion (meme) grabs us, as it > won't go, I think it means it is useful to us, and hence 'fit'. > Doesn't matter a bit, your comment reflects what I would see as a positive use of metaphor. My comment was more tuned Simon's thoughts re. corporate notions of competiveness - it all put me in mind of the list becoming a kind of "Metaphoric Olympiad" which would be ... well ... silly. Of course, doing the play by play announcing could be fun " The Finn is out of the gate with a Vision of Snow ... The Canuck quashes with a Picture of a Blizzard ... oh ... oh ... the Russian is contemplating ... he's thinking hard ... here it comes ... Frozen Tundra! The Finn and Canuck are finished - you can't build on permafrost." > ~~~ > > > > Jim responds: > > You're right Simon there are a lot of metaphors about. With "Room at > > the Inn" I was trying to get across the feelings I was having as a > > newcomer here and the sense that it was like being at a dinner theatre. > > Rather than become a 'player' I'd prefer to sit down at a table with > > some of the other guests and conversationally explore ideas, feelings > > and experiences. > > So, how is that for you now? I am thinking that there is a drama > here (I am converted!) that is a good thing to recognise, to > acknowledge. The simple idea of short threads on one topic and > then another, (various dinner conversations) is not what is going > on here . . . there is a *Drama* . . . the Sieur's mime puppets > with their hair all askew, is a scene . . . people who come into > this restaurant certainly would find it a strange enactment . . . > Hey, the train metaphor still applies, new people are coming in > all the time, others go. > > I don't understand the puppets one bit, but that they come . . . > in this moment, from Sieur, is a *significant* development in the > drama, Sieur de Cyberie, is a significant player. I find it a > scary drama. I can't eat or chat while it happens. I've responded separately to Robert's post. The puppets piss me off. > > Especially as the manager of the Dinner Theatre, I think . . . > this play we have here is not quite right . . . not suited to the > venue. AMEN. > > ~~~ > > Jim goes on to say: > > Instead I'm finding that posting to psybernet > > engenders in me the same feelings I experience before making a > > presentation (nervousness, fear of appearing foolish etc.) so, since > > I'm having performance anxiety, you must be correct in defining me as > > having become a 'player'. Now my question is, how do I withdraw from > > the stage without leaving the table? > > As there are *many* people not posting you may nor be alone in > feeling like this, this lends weight to the metaphor, we have > audience with reluctant players. > > Why withdraw? Perhaps you could continue to play the part, even > extend it? Learn to be comfortable with it . . . or perhaps the > *discomfort* belongs with the part? > > I have a sense that there is a destiny at work here, that we > don't really have much of a choice in our part. In this way > Psybernet is a microcosm of life. > > Walter Why withdraw from the stage? In real life I get 50-100 emails a day plus 5-10 voicemails plus 2-10 f2f contacts, most of which require decisions and action. Being on stage is tiring and I was more of a mind for relaxation rather than performing. That said, I guess I'll keep on being "me" (cue the 70's music please) and see where that takes me here ... Stage, Table or Outhouse ... I can perform anywhere! Cheers all, I'm off to the office for a Merry Monday. ...JimC _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:31:05 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: players Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" JimC, At 06:10 1997-05-01 -0400, you wrote: >Instead I'm finding that posting to psybernet >engenders in me the same feelings I experience before making a >presentation (nervousness, fear of appearing foolish etc.) so, since >I'm having performance anxiety, I thought, that only the Finns keep silent, because they are afraid of appearing foolish. Thanks God, it seems to be un universal trait. So, I am not alone among the Psyberbians. On the other hand, I'm not nervous before making a presentation, but afterwards I think, oh, how ridiculous I was. Why I didn't shut my mouth! Anita The Finn out of the gate with a Vision of Snow _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 11:37:38 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kaisa Subject: Re: players MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anita Konkka wrote: > I thought, that only the Finns keep silent, because they are afraid of > appearing foolish. Thanks God, it seems to be un universal trait. So, I > am not alone among the Psyberbians. On the other hand, I'm not nervous > before making a presentation, but afterwards I think, oh, how ridiculous > I was. Why I didn't shut my mouth! > > Anita > The Finn out of the gate with a Vision of Snow > Hi Psybernetters, From my personal experience as a Finnish-born Canadian, Finns are generally more reticent (unless of course they're from the Karelian province) than MANY other peoples I have met in my teaching career at the elementary and college levels, as well as two years of teaching English in Helsinki. In Helsinki, you might say I got my *own medicine back*, as I experienced what it was like to have students who were like I had been! It was MY turn to pull out my hair trying to elicit responses from the Finnish students who wanted to learn a language by osmosis. How hypocratical it was of me to leave my Russian class at the university where I practically shook in my desk from fear that I might be asked something by the prof and then go to my English classes where I told my students about needing to take risks, that you learn languages by practising, that it was okay to make mistakes.... Yeah, it was okay for THEM to make mistakes, but heaven forbid if I didn't appear perfect. Such grandiosity! LOL What a battle it has been to try to overcome that need to be perfect. Jungian Marion Woodman explains this so well in her book ADDICTION TO PERFECTION; The Still Unravished Bride. As Woodman writes, >>Essentially I am suggesting that many of us - men and women- are addicted in one way or another because our patriarchal culture emphasizes specialiazation and perfection. Driven to do our best at school, on the job, in our relationships - in every corner of our lives - we try to make ourselves into works of art. Working so hard to create our own perfection we forget that we are human beings. ... We are trapped in the extremes of the gods, territory that doesn't belong to us.<< For me, the internet and online experiences have certainly helped me deal with this addiction to perfection. In my online studies I finally had to actually share my written work with fellow students rather than just my profs. I tell you, that was extremely difficult for a perfectionistic Finn like myself! What a call to growth it was! Then in chatting with others on IRCs or AOL, I really got the opportunity to observe and reflect on my behaviours and feelings as they emerged in the relationships I formed online. As I dropped that prim and proper persona mask I generally wore around people in real life, I faced the challenge of dealing with projections, suppressed emotions, complexes and my enormous shadow, both dark AND golden. I only wish I would have had someone who had the ability to guide me through my online underworld (or is that Tuonela?). On the other hand, I don't think I'm totally out yet.... Peace from the Peace Region in northern British Columbia, where the snows have ALMOST all melted, and praying we don't get any more visions of snow here. Kaisa :-) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:37:37 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: players - JimC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JimC I take this opportunity to reply directly to you rather than indirectly. I'm trying to understand your feelings as you dialogue here and I come up with anger and frustration. > I think I like publican - you could walk about making introductions, > welcoming visitors - cuffing the ears of unruly guests as needed and > volunteering your own opinions whenever you like (or don't like). > After all Walter, IT'S YOUR HOUSE DAMMIT! Is it his house? This is more like a community than a house. The days of the American West when one man could own a community are now history (and probably mythology). This community belongs to US DAMMIT! And, as such, we can't lay blame for what others do or don't do. We must each speak for ourselves and carry the torch of "voice". Jim, you respond to Walter's words below with more anger: > > I don't understand the puppets one bit, but that they come . . . > > in this moment, from Sieur, is a *significant* development in the > > drama, Sieur de Cyberie, is a significant player. I find it a > > scary drama. I can't eat or chat while it happens. > > I've responded separately to Robert's post. The puppets piss me off. The question again comes up, "WHY?" What projections have been touched off, what reflections were seen, what shadows were encountered? Do you, will you respond ... authentically ... with reflection that looks inward as well as outward? I am listening and care about what you say, what others say as I learn a little bit more of the enigma that I find myself to be, as I come face-to-face again with more of my own shadow. Thanks for the anger as it spoke to me loudly enough so that I could hear. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:37:52 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: players - Walter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter No meetings this evening and I find myself drawn to write to you, JimC and others here in PSYBER-L. Before I go far in this dialogue (monologue?), I want to put forward some of my personal reactions to the ideas of "players". In discussing the interactions and the dialogue of the "players/main actors" and then that of the "supporting cast of characters", I find that I dislike these metaphors as they remove personal empowerment. One is as active and vocal as one wants to be. One is as silent as one wants to be. To cite excuses to explain the role that "others" play in limiting participation is to again deny one's own power. I can't empower you ... I can listen. I can't empower you ... I can reflect upon your words so that you can hear me. I can't empower you ... I can talk with you, to you with the hope of a response. I can't enforce a response to my words. All this lies within you. Of course, I am not talking of "you" as limited to "Walter". This you is a universal "you". > I have not written much, but these questions have not left my > mind all wee . . . they are difficult and I have written on the > subject, and then not posted . . . fearing that my "mere musings" > would do no good . . . I need to rethink things fully. Can one not think out loud here? Is that another "faux pas"? We are engaged here in group therapy whether we like it to be so or not. Should we then still our voices, our musings? Luckily others are blind to us and cannot see us squirm in our seats as we maintain our silences, our unspoken musings and mutterings. This is a therapeutic domaine ... we are involved in a group session that has no leader, no direction and an unknown (unexpessed) purpose ... truth is who is even aware of this as we sit gathered together here? I don't think that this is a metaphor for PSYBER-L, I think it is a cyber-reality. > Each one of these metaphors has implications for the facilitation > . . . am I the publican, the Director, the cook, or a player? > And what should I be? Good questions, Walter. I think that first you are you. Here, you are ... undefined, maybe undefinable ... perhaps it's time to stop looking for metaphors and to see this place as a real place ... what is this place? What are we doing here? Why are we doing this here? > Simon to JimC: > > > Adopting the 'player' perspective, I'd say that, appropriately enough, you > > > became a player with your 'No Room at the Inn' post. JimC became a player when he decided to become "present" in a meaningful way. What we said (or didn't say) is incidental to JimC's declaration of presence here in PSYBER-L. Walter, you said: > I don't understand the puppets one bit, but that they come . . . > in this moment, from Sieur, is a *significant* development in the > drama, Sieur de Cyberie, is a significant player. I find it a > scary drama. I can't eat or chat while it happens. I hope that you can clarify this. The "puppets" represented two mimes in conversation (silence), a represetation of the ebb of our conversation here. Deliberate silence? That is one interpretation. Real-life fallout silence is another. I guess it's up to the listener to decide. That's the beauty of pictures and poems, they allow the listener to create meaning and relevance. Why am I a "significant player"? Why are my posts significant and others fall to the curb as though insignificant? This is indeed scary, scary for those who are thus left feeling they are "insignificant". Why have I been invested with this "power" to so affect this place, a power I refuse to wield, yet I also refuse to be silent? > Especially as the manager of the Dinner Theatre, I think . . . > this play we have here is not quite right . . . not suited to the > venue. Then you have the option/power to set it right ... what is "right"? I don't feel directed or managed ... I float freely speaking words from my being that need to be spoken ... untamed, raw, brutal, poetic at times ... spoken authentically. Mange me and set the "play" right. > > I have a sense that there is a destiny at work here, that we > don't really have much of a choice in our part. In this way > Psybernet is a microcosm of life. So where to now gentle "leader"? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 07:13:05 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: players - Walter In-Reply-To: <336EA790.14E@sk.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, > No meetings this evening and I find myself drawn to write to = you, > JimC and others here in PSYBER-L.=20 Unfortunately I do not feel drawn to respond, though I do. So much has been said, and ignored, glaring, right now, is your non response to JimC's direct post to you re projection and avoidance. =20 I find that it would be to treat others as insignificant if I or we did not draw attention to that.=20 > So where to now gentle "leader"? If you ask me, to that post, but not to challenge JimC for putting the questions, rather for you to answer them. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:55:59 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: players In-Reply-To: <336E0CD2.39E1@pris.bc.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kaisa, All --- A post where i respond to you, Kaisa, and=20 reflect more fully on some of the themes you raise=20 that related to this list. --=20 Hi, good to have your reflections on perfectionism and reticence, your contribution to this Players thread. I am not sure how conscious you are that you amplify and extend the theme, of player and audience, and add your perspective, perhaps from a more audience position.=20 It sounds like you have a wealth of experience in this, both rl and online. I recall you wanting more discussion on the themes addiction. Have you been following the list since then? What do you make of it all. =20 > I only wish I would have had someone who had the > ability to guide me through my online underworld (or is that Tuonela?).= =20 I do not know what Tuonela is, might do a web search? On the question of guides in the online underworld . . . I wish too. . . One thing I know i need in this space is a form of what I know in the rl therapy wld as "supervision" . . . yet that is exactly what has been happening *in* this gp as we reflect on "facilitation", and doing that is an *explicit purpose of the list*.=20 I have a sense though that something is wrong . . . I enjoy picking up on this thread of reticence and leadership and shadow that you mention . . . but I am conscious as respond to it that I wish others had. Why, of the hundred or so people does this post of yours go unresponded to until i do it? Is there life without Walter, and do i kill it off? Perhaps the premise in the list description, to learn about list facilitation, when *I* am in the prime experiential learning seat is just not workable. I know that at this time I think collectively the list can do with more thoughtful guidance, I could do with it. A cooperative approach . . . It is not a cop out on my part . . . it is complex. More constructive thoughtful discussion about the list are really needed. =20 Every comment *about* the list is at the same time a content of the list, and thus subject for more reflection. That is our dual task . . . no different from any human interaction. We are the subjects of our own investigation, of our reflection. A high form of research. It is a *difficult* thing to do . . . that is one reason for the silences . . .=20 So, this post, and my one a few hours ago, are my best shot at being a participant / facilitator, for this moment in the list. Perhaps this post will look mighty redundant in a moment when i post it. Perhaps it will be crossed by posts that could have prevented the "hub" phenomena. ~~~ I have a sense of this post being reflective, the other one proactive, this a meta-post, not breaking into the silence between JimC and Robert . . . not breaking into the silence between Robert and Wilbur, or Marie. Reflecting on that silence. ~~~ Ha! JimC could ask me about my projections here? =20 And there is one possibility . . . *I* have ben silent, in that I have not addressed Marie . . . only awkwardly spoken as if behind her back, as i do now . . . I will remedy . . . ~~~ Kaisa, this has been a post in response to yours but with many reflections . . . I hope not too far removed from your musings. > On the > other hand, I don't think I'm totally out yet.... Getting out of the shadows like that, even golden ones, is such a business. I am not out of mine here or in rl, and in my soul life there is little difference. In any therapeutic sessions I have the dynamics of this list often come up. Are you seeking guidance from the discussions here? Learning from them? =20 The very nature and *scope* of the list to be able to attend to the depths like this is in question. I have no doubt it can be done on the net, and in email lists, but how far can this one go within its perameters? I have no intention of changing them in any major way, BTW. The question remains of how this list can relate to more focussed Psyber Groups. > Peace from the Peace Region in northern British Columbia, where the = snows have > ALMOST all melted, and praying we don't get any more visions of snow = here. > Kaisa :-) As usual as yours melt we are getting the first of ours . . . looking forward to the skiing. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:56:43 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: extremes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marie, It has been a while! What a revelation it is to read your post here from almost a year ago. Good to read. I recall it well, (quoted in full below) and perhaps it is one of those that was not responded to, sadly. Here am i doing it! Ah well, hub or no hub . . . it I am pleased to do it! =20 > Finding balance takes > day-by-day, conscious effort for me, and I became unbalanced here. I = will > continue to listen until I feel that I have regained some perspective, = and > that I know where the boundaries are. How are you doing with this? I hope you have found some balance, though i think *extremes* can also have their value. Have you actually managed to listen all this time? =20 *Boundaries* and their nature is one of the underlying themes all this time here. Perhaps you still do not 'Know where they are', and listening is still more appropriate. The boundaries you refer to . . . I am not sure of the exact nature of them. . . At an unconscious level I think i have focussed on making some here, a temenos, a space, within which we can explore. As you write I think of the boundaries *here*. =20 I don't know where they are. =20 I am handicapped by my knowledge of boundaries in psychotherapy and groups, what they are like here? That is our search . . . I hope this response reaches you, and that it is ok to get . . . Walter=20 ~~~ On Fri, 24 May 1996 11:13:55 -0400 Marie Tondreau wrote, in a post entitled: "extremes" : > Dear all, >=20 > I have said that the value of experiential learning is the opportunity = to > reflect on our experience, and learn from it. I have been doing just = that. > I have always loved words, and language, and metaphor -- and I have = always > had a tendency to slip into extreme states of mind. I have gotten = carried > away with both lately, here and in the dream event. The Internet is a > powerful tool for communication, and connection, and it allows for the > expression of many levels of reality, but it is not a substitute for = life. > My life is out here, in the sunlight, and it is dangerous for me to = make > such an emotional investment in this forum as I have. Finding balance = takes > day-by-day, conscious effort for me, and I became unbalanced here. I = will > continue to listen until I feel that I have regained some perspective, = and > that I know where the boundaries are. >=20 > The experience, the insight and the learning that we share is real, = however, > and I am grateful for it. Thanks to everyone who has shared. >=20 > bright blessings, >=20 > Marie >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >=20 >=20 >=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 07:08:50 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Mea Culpa, JimC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JimC, I went to the archives to retrieve the letter that Walter referred to in his last post, the letter in response to "mimes in action" which I quote below: > Robert: > > I assume this is a projection then? Perhaps a prelude to you answering > some of the questions put to you here over the past weeks? Or is this > another means of avoidance for you? To begin with, I took these questions as rhetorical, questions that didn't expect a response. You asked me a direct question in the past (April 20th) about facades, a question I responded to with thoughtfulness and to which you replied with thanks. Then, you posted in late April: > Hi Eva, sorry I haven't been able to respond before now ... ... > Grandpa Bob leaves me somewhat mystified - when > is an archetype a facade and which of these is 'Grandpa Bob'? I'll > accept guidance from anyone re. this issue. This post left me wondering if there were other (unspoken/unvoiced) thoughts that needed to be asked. You ask for this clarification from others which speaks of a distrust ... others are angry at Sieur/Grandpa Bob, so I guess they must be right ... Jim, there have been no other directed questions from you to me, no other "dialogues". This leaves me wondering "why?". Your anger towards me comes from what roots? When speaking of projections it might be a good idea to think of potential projections that you are dealing with here. Are you flustered by the direct dialogues with me, or are you picking up on the "group shadow" image of me and joining the group in acceptable behaviour? I realize that this sounds a little cranky, but what the hell! Shadows have their bad days too :))) Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 11:01:44 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: HBGillcash Subject: Re: Gender issues.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am a bit slow at responding to anything at the moment .... no projections, no intended silence, just exhaustion. I won't say exhaustion in rl vs virtual because I do not experience rl as necessarily separate from on-line life .... I guess I am stuck in my own perspective: the one world, one me, one ride on the merry-go-round view of life. Which leads me to a question about your post.... When you mention >Gender issues are a huge part of being online - I've got a few handles >(identities) that are more male than female, and whose gender in the member >profile is male. Having that freedom to "become" male if I choose to, is >somewhat empowering to be able to pick the gender I want to be for the >conversation, be able to play both sides of an issue. do you think your voice online changes with the name you choose? When I have spoken about this listserv with my husband, he has suggested I rejoin this list and post under a male name. I tell him it would be futile ... my voice, the way I speak and connect thoughts is already there. Such an effort may be transparent to some, irrelevant otherwise, because the thoughts still came from one source. Then again, names are important and perhaps I would speak differently if others responded differently to me. What is your experience? Do you think your name changed 1) how you speak and/or 2) how others responded? I do not have much experience in the chatrooms ... due to time constraints, I tend toward listservs and usenets. Do chatrooms have a different dynamic than a listserv like this (in terms of the gender/name question...) Hmmm. Thanks, H. P.S. I like the way you phrase the thought .... > I think Wilbur does >have a clear sense of his gender "opinions", and for that, I love him very >much. I don't always agree with him, but I don't have to. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 11:01:47 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: HBGillcash Subject: Re: players - JimC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert, Grampa Bob, Sieur.... Well, I am glad you are back with words! I have to agree with JimC about the puppets .... they pissed me off as well, but in a light-hearted way (as in, OK, now we all have to stop, pause our train of thought, and figure out what is being said by not being said ....yet again!) What catches my eye, however, is your response to his query ... >The question again comes up, "WHY?" What projections have been touched >off, what reflections were seen, what shadows were encountered? Do you, >will you respond ... authentically ... with reflection that looks inward >as well as outward? Why is it always about others' *projections*? Is this your habit or on-line style ...the need to prod list members with hazy, ill-defined (sometimes artistic) comments which, when responded to, can be met with an across-the-board "what's *your* problem" How can you question others' authenticity of response? What need of it of yours to require others "inward reflection as well as outward" when you do not articulate your own? When you post, who are you challenging, JimC or yourself? Just an authentic response ... not anger, not gender-based reponse, not anything but curiosity ...(so please do not assume I am projecting....) :) H. I am listening and care about what you say, what >others say as I learn a little bit more of the enigma that I find myself >to be, as I come face-to-face again with more of my own shadow. Thanks >for the anger as it spoke to me loudly enough so that I could hear. > >Robert de Cyberie > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 12:09:40 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Mea Culpa, JimC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert, Figured that I'd jump into the fray.. Just a couple of random responses.. I'm not angry with you. I see the situation that is present currently as a natural extension of who you are, but I also see Psyber-L as more than you. I realize that you have had a couple of rather strong learning experiences in the past year with the Psyber-L community, and certainly I know how that can feel. Let's not forget that anger is a common response online when things aren't clear, the flame wars discussions that we've had over the past year have covered all of the bases as to why that happens.. I want to point out the the anger is often a part of the lack of human context, not directly something which is pointed at an individual.. often it projections, often it's the lack of context, and often its a simple misunderstanding.. To the point of misunderstanding, from my perspective you have undergone some significant emotional events in the past year, and on occasion you have posted messages which lead me to believe that you were looking to intellectualize these events in some way. You posted a message that you were looking to work out the issues in the list, to which I asked if you were really interested in getting into a discussion about the issues, about how I have a certain perspective of you which doesn't match your own perspective. Now there is a wide gulf of difference in basic belief, which is why I specifically asked if you really wanted to get into the discussion. Put quite plainly, your religious beliefs and mine are quite different. Your ideas of interaction with other people, both on this list and in other places, differ quite significantly from mine also. Because of the nature of this media, we can discuss those differences and perhaps come to an understanding that neither of us had before we started the discussion, but given that religious arguments often deteriorate (sp?) into flame wars, I felt that rather than jumping into the discussion, that I we needed to be in agreement as to why we were pursuing the discussion, and also in agreement as to the motivations as to why we were involved.. From my perspective, you have been taking it on the chin for quite a while on the list, and you expressed a desire to investigate the issues and reach some understanding as to why that was happening.. But these things might bring up very strong personal issues, so I need for you to understand that I'm interested for two distinct reasons, none of which is intended to do you harm. The first reason is that the idea of the wandering poet is something that was cut off from my perspective very early in life. My mother was very adamant that I wouldn't be permitted to be a starving artist.. no creativity for her child! On the other hand, I've had more than one person tell me that I manage to attain that "starving artist" role without being involved in the classic modalities of creativity.. The second reason is one of creating value. There are a number of things in the world that I haven't resolved my attitudes toward. Religion being one of them. My methods of interaction with others is also changing, and the value system that I have is shifting as well. This online discussion underscores some of the value based things that I've determined will have to be dealt with again when the media is a "face to face" but still disconnected from actual humanity. While the issues will be less different due to a different level of abstraction, the issues will still be quite similar, and the human factor will still be the same. As I posted a while ago, I've spent the last year creating a "Virtual Community" along with several different teams. I'm the person driving the design, and since I'm probably going to continue to drive the design process, I need to have a more firm grasp of the interactions that are involved.. So, I'd like to ask if you are ready to discuss the dynamics of yourself and the list, (I'll bring myself into the discussion as fodder also), along with the others on this list. I'd also invite everyone else to express why they are here.. I'm starting to get the impression that the issues of so called "silence" here are more about a lack of expression of self than anything else. People are afraid to express themselves.. (gee that sounds like a familiar rant.. that my be my projection..) Oh well, back to writing software.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:33:54 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Gender issues.. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Holly, Tamara.. Holly, you expressed my thoughts about Tamara's post well, and I'm glad you brought it back... I was mid moving and too RL focused to respond. > I am a bit slow at responding to anything at the moment .... no projections, > no intended silence, just exhaustion. I won't say exhaustion in rl vs > virtual because I do not experience rl as necessarily separate from on-line > life .... I guess I am stuck in my own perspective: the one world, one me, > one ride on the merry-go-round view of life. Which leads me to a question > about your post.... > > When you mention > > >Gender issues are a huge part of being online - I've got a few handles > >(identities) that are more male than female, and whose gender in the member > >profile is male. Having that freedom to "become" male if I choose to, is > >somewhat empowering to be able to pick the gender I want to be for the > >conversation, be able to play both sides of an issue. > > do you think your voice online changes with the name you choose? When I > have spoken about this listserv with my husband, he has suggested I rejoin > this list and post under a male name. I tell him it would be futile ... my > voice, the way I speak and connect thoughts is already there. Such an > effort may be transparent to some, irrelevant otherwise, because the > thoughts still came from one source. > > Then again, names are important and perhaps I would speak differently if > others responded differently to me. What is your experience? Do you think > your name changed 1) how you speak and/or 2) how others responded? > > I do not have much experience in the chatrooms ... due to time constraints, > I tend toward listservs and usenets. Do chatrooms have a different dynamic > than a listserv like this (in terms of the gender/name question...) I wondered about the name and identity changing too... I personally quickly realized that being who I am was for me the most honest way to deal with myself and others, and in that way the interaction has been for the most part, more clear. If, for example, someone gives me feed back that I am cautious and skeptical, I am able to examine that observation and its truth for me. Changing genders and identities would not give me that feedback because the feedback really wouldn't be about me, but about some fantasy creature, IMO. If I can tie in some thoughts about the projections discussed now... if I changed names or identities wouldn't I only be complicating the situation? I agree that all that goes on, particularly on Psyber-L, is not just projections... identification, rationalization, empathy, sympathy, and apathy, and many other mechanisms (?) exist as well. But it seems to me that identity switching would make it almost impossible to recognize mechanisms are going on within the person or others. Or is there just a sense of empowerment in being able to say *I can do that* ? Or is it a sense of *I don't have to be me?* Or a part of the assumed identity which in truth is a part of the person herself/himself? I have a feeling this post might sound too obscure ;) Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:03:33 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: HBGillcash Subject: Re: Gender issues.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl, >Or is there just a sense of empowerment in being able to say *I can do >that* ? Or is it a sense of *I don't have to be me?* Or a part of the >assumed identity which in truth is a part of the person herself/himself? > >I have a feeling this post might sound too obscure ;) Your post is not too obscure to me! I think you are right in a way....it is empowering to step out of oneself for a moment and try on ideas. Then again, I feel as if I have struggled many years mustering up the courage of my convictions, to step up and say "this is what *I* think" and not feel required to make my convictions embody everyone else's logic. I am reminded of something Walter just quoted (from "Marie"): > Finding balance takes > day-by-day, conscious effort for me, and I became unbalanced here. I will > continue to listen until I feel that I have regained some perspective, and > that I know where the boundaries are. What if the word balance was replaced by the words "self" or "voice"? Maybe this is where some of my confusion with the listserv comes from .... maybe some come to the list with the need of being "another" while others come with the need to be "self". Neither need is better or more universal, just different. Some individuals may need the freedom of being "another" for self-revelation, while others (like myself) feel so much day-to-day social pressure to be "another" that being "self" ... literally practising "self", is the needed exercise for self-revelation. Could it be tied to gender also? Hmm. Just mulling it over. Take care. H. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:15:58 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Wilbur - Mea Culpa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wilbur, > Robert, > > Figured that I'd jump into the fray.. Thanks for jumping in the water, Wilbur :) I now have time in my real life to continue the dialogue which got misplaced for me by events in my life that are not related to this medium. > I'm not angry with you. I see the situation that is present > currently as a natural extension of who you are, but I also see > Psyber-L as more than you. I'm in total agreement with you here. It does come as a shock to me at times to see the intense reaction to my words here. I don't have a PhD so my role here is definitely not in the capacity as expert. I do speak what I feel after thinking about it. My words are authentic and are not contrived to create reaction. They come from deep places as well as from reactions to bumping into others both in RL and on-line. > Let's not forget that anger is a common response online when > things aren't clear ... ... I want to point out the > the anger is often a part of the lack of human context, not directly > something which is pointed at an individual.. often it projections, > often it's the lack of context, and often its a simple > misunderstanding.. Anger on-line is perhaps then harder to understand, to mediate because of these factors you mention. Would any of us speak the way we have face-to-face? What advantages are given to us using this medium? What learnings can we take from these experiments in communication so that we can use this medium more humanistically for counselling purposes, or for healthy dialogue? > To the point of misunderstanding, from my perspective you have > undergone some significant emotional events in the past year, > and on occasion you have posted messages which lead me to believe > that you were looking to intellectualize these events in some way. You are of course correct (some of these are public knowledge). Rather than just "intellectualize" these events, I have tried to come to some cognitive understanding of these events so that I can re-direct my real life into a more functional direction. The intellectualizing perhaps comes from a position of "voicing" these emotional events with the purpose of seeing how this medium (amongst this company of therapists, poets, philosophers, and pragmatists) copes with them, how the dialogues are then constructed. If this sounds a bit as though I am using this list as an experimental laboratory, it probably is because that is exactly what I am doing ... but then, when one thinks that reality is a construction based on experiential activity, this is what we all do either consciously or unconsciously. > You posted a message that you were looking to work out the issues > in the list, to which I asked if you were really interested in > getting into a discussion about the issues, about how I have a > certain perspective of you which doesn't match your own perspective. These "issues" are born in PSYBER-L and the "players" who are part of those issues remain silent. It is impossible to "work out" these "group" issues when the "group" has been disbanded. Still, the settling dust finds its way into the larger group. Charles has stated well the rapprochement reached because of the dialogue finding an opportunity to come to a natural closure. HooN? I think that this dialogue might have reached a zone of comfort ... I know that I feel easier about it (What say you, HooN?). Anita? Marie? Walter? Unfinished business ... But, I begin to think that this isn't the place to finish it regardless of Walter's wish to bring it to the larger group. The fallout with the rest of the group is a little too costly in terms of keeping the newer citizens of this community. > Now there is a wide gulf of difference in basic belief, which is > why I specifically asked if you really wanted to get into the > discussion. Put quite plainly, your religious beliefs and mine > are quite different. How so Wilbur? I thought I was clear when I said that I taught in a community that is fundamentalist, bible-thumping evangelical and protestant. I don't fit the mould of this community being of a different culture. I don't have a "church", an affiliation that is "religious". I do have a sense of there being a power that gives meaning to life, but this isn't bounded by any formal theology. You want to talk theology, religion, beliefs, values ... I will engage you in that discussion. How different are we? > Your ideas of interaction with other people, both on this list and > in other places, differ quite significantly from mine also. Probably this is indeed true, but that is yet to be tested and verified. If you want to get a better handle on my "orientation" to interaction with others you could read Martin Buber's I AND THOU. I have this thing about authentic dialogue, this need. I have little patience for small talk, especially on-line. As a teacher of adolescents, I use my patience to navigate their needs. I expect more from adults on-line, perhaps unfairly. I hope that this modest beginning of response to your post leads to a dialogue that embraces rather than excludes the other residents of PSYBER-L. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 06:39:56 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: Mea Culpa, JimC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sieur de Cyberie wrote: > > JimC, > > I went to the archives to retrieve the letter that Walter > referred to in his last post, the letter in response to "mimes in action" > which I quote below: > > > Robert: > > > > I assume this is a projection then? Perhaps a prelude to you answering > > some of the questions put to you here over the past weeks? Or is this > > another means of avoidance for you? > > To begin with, I took these questions as rhetorical, questions > that didn't expect a response. You asked me a direct question in the > past (April 20th) about facades, a question I responded to with > thoughtfulness and to which you replied with thanks. Then, you posted in > late April: > > > Hi Eva, sorry I haven't been able to respond before now ... ... > > Grandpa Bob leaves me somewhat mystified - when > > is an archetype a facade and which of these is 'Grandpa Bob'? I'll > > accept guidance from anyone re. this issue. I'm guilty of being unclear here. I had your explanation but was still puzzling (and remain so) over other's (I think Wilbur, Dolores, Walter perhaps others) quick acceptance of Grandpa Bob. Your transformation into Grandpa Bob seemed to be accepted as quite natural by them. I don't have a frame of reference that would accept this transformation as 'natural' and so I am looking for guidance re. this issue. > Robert to JimC: > This post left me wondering if there were other (unspoken/unvoiced) > thoughts that needed to be asked. You ask for this clarification from > others which speaks of a distrust ... others are angry at Sieur/Grandpa > Bob, so I guess they must be right ... > > Jim, there have been no other directed questions from you to me, > no other "dialogues". This leaves me wondering "why?". Your anger > towards me comes from what roots? When speaking of projections it might > be a good idea to think of potential projections that you are dealing > with here. Are you flustered by the direct dialogues with me, or are you > picking up on the "group shadow" image of me and joining the group in > acceptable behaviour? I have no directed questions to you that are unanswered. My post was based on a belief that others had unanswered questions - I believe one of the first posts I read after joining Psyber-L was from Wilbur and ended with "Robert, I asked you a question." Since then, it seems the questions have grown - but this may be only my impression and it isn't necessarily appropriate or helpful for me to be 'caretaking' by trying to amplify others questions. This is a function I have tended to serve in most f2f situations. I pursue the unspoken, challenge assumptions, stay outside the groupthink and bring in questions from the margins of the page. In this case though, my actions may be misplaced, if others have unanswered questions, I'll leave the asking to them. At the same time, I offer the observation to the group that there is blockage around Robert. Perhaps the difficulty in moving on to new topics extends from aiming to avoid? I've thought about your question to me re. my own projections towards you. This is a fair question and I realize I owe you an apology. I have connected you with a former colleague who I came to dislike intensely. He was popular with women, and avoided by men. At the same time as he seduced his students and associates with his sensitivity and thoughtfulness - he abused his wife and neglected to support his children. As a man, I was (am) outraged. Now Robert, I know you are not this person and I apologize for having let some of my old anger settle towards you. I sincerely hope I haven't fallen into "joining the group in acceptable behaviour" and as for being "flustered", my ego simply won't allow that (or at least won't allow the admission of that! ) ...JimC _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 07:00:47 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: players - JimC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert, just a quick clarification from me on this one, as I'm almost out of time. Sieur de Cyberie wrote: > > JimC > > I take this opportunity to reply directly to you rather than > indirectly. I'm trying to understand your feelings as you dialogue here > and I come up with anger and frustration. > > > I think I like publican - you could walk about making introductions, > > welcoming visitors - cuffing the ears of unruly guests as needed and > > volunteering your own opinions whenever you like (or don't like). > > After all Walter, IT'S YOUR HOUSE DAMMIT! > I was playing with the picture of Walter as Publican here and not being angry. If anything I was seeing myself in the role of unruly guest and offering Walter the opportunity to "cuff me about the earhole" (as my dear departed Granny would say). > Is it his house? This is more like a community than a house. > The days of the American West when one man could own a community are now > history (and probably mythology). This community belongs to US DAMMIT! > And, as such, we can't lay blame for what others do or don't do. We must > each speak for ourselves and carry the torch of "voice". I agree we should speak for ourselves and admit I am occasionally guilty of speaking for others (and have done so in this forum). In terms of whose house this is, I assume Walter is paying the bills to keep this forum open. If I were Walter, this would give me some sense of proprietorship. Perhaps we should be taking up a collection to support Psyber-L? > > Jim, you respond to Walter's words below with more anger: > > > > I don't understand the puppets one bit, but that they come . . . > > > in this moment, from Sieur, is a *significant* development in the > > > drama, Sieur de Cyberie, is a significant player. I find it a > > > scary drama. I can't eat or chat while it happens. > > > > I've responded separately to Robert's post. The puppets piss me off. > > The question again comes up, "WHY?" What projections have been touched > off, what reflections were seen, what shadows were encountered? Do you, > will you respond ... authentically ... with reflection that looks inward > as well as outward? I am listening and care about what you say, what > others say as I learn a little bit more of the enigma that I find myself > to be, as I come face-to-face again with more of my own shadow. Thanks > for the anger as it spoke to me loudly enough so that I could hear. > > Robert de Cyberie > I hope I have responded authentically in my other post. Let me know ... ...JimC _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 07:46:17 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: HBGillcash Subject: Re: players - JimC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > >I hope I have responded authentically in my other post. Let me know ... > >...JimC JimC, Probably just stating the obvious here, but how can Robert determine whether or not you have responded authentically? also Robert, What projections do you (*authentically*) assign to JimC? Just curious, H. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 07:32:42 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kataryn Subject: Re: Gender Masks :Voice In The Wilderness~~~~ Sheryl Wrote:~~~~ > >Holly, Tamara.. > >Holly, you expressed my thoughts about Tamara's post well, and I'm glad you >brought it back... {snip}.... because I do not experience rl as necessarily separate from >on-line >> life .... I guess I am stuck in my own perspective: the one world, one >me, >> one ride on the merry-go-round view of life. {Sheryl ~~ I appreciate your viewpoint, as CW and RW can become a wonderful blend. } ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Sheryl post was in Response to Tamara's writing below ~~~~> >> >Gender issues are a huge part of being online - I've got a few handles >> >(identities) that are more male than female, and whose gender in the >member >> >profile is male. Having that freedom to "become" male if I choose to, >is >> >somewhat empowering to be able to pick the gender I want to be for the >> >conversation, be able to play both sides of an issue. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~Tamara ~~~Sheryl ~~~Holly ~~ Cyberia members ~~~ Interesting responses to Tamara's posting, from both Holly and Sheryl. In a prior posting, I had made the statement that I really had no concern as to gender issues. By this, I now see that clarrifiction is necessary. I appreciate the diversities of thoughts projected from both the male and female view.....sometimes in harmony ..sometimes in opposition. Tamara ~~~~ I truly fail to understand your "gender" conversions in cyberworld, whether it be as a member of a list or on IRC. I say this, with full recognition of you statement of feeling "empowered" to pick you gender and "play both sides of the issue". If I were to attempt to correctly assess your "play", my immediate reaction is one of total dishonesty. While you may be really getting some kicks out of the "gender mask", I would personally be most insulted to think I was having communion with a man, and instead discovered it was a woman "playing" the part. Does this show that I have not be "liberalized"? I think not. Having experienced cyberworld for only about a year now, I have been fortunate to have meet very sincere individuals, enjoying mutual communion and sharing from throughout the world. Some have become close friends.....some have disappeared.....a very few, extremely meaningful relationships. The basis for a true exchange of thoughts and feelings, IMHO, is truth and honesty. How many cyberladies, may you have injured with your male gender game, who took seriously your words or were hoping to establish a more meaningfull relationship with future conversations? There are many very fragile souls here, searching to connect, and trusting the connection will be, as that individual has presented themselves. I found it so necessary to above all else strive to "do no harm" and always hope for mutual enrichment, with any sharing...with any communion. I do hope that if you consider this world a game, that you are able to find that place, where it is a game also for those whom you are communicating with. There are certainly the MUDS to consider. I resisted the urge, for an immediate response to your posting. I attempted to view your posting from your own prespective. I attempted to suggest to myself, that perhaps I was really still "Under A Rock", and was just not with it. Obviously, all three concepts have been rejected. It was interesting to find that there were no responses from the gentleman here on the list. I am sure, had a man posted the same context of pretending to be a woman ~~~there well might have be responses ~~~ So I am now directing my question to the members? Are we here to "play" and to wear masks, or are we here for a trusting and meaningfull exchange and thus, be able to establish reliance in each others spoken words? If we are all but actors/actresses... on a stage, then must part of the play { to coin JimC's parameters of the nightclub } be wearing the masks of deceit? I think not! But then, I am but one voice in this wilderness? ~~~~ Kataryn ~~~~ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:33:05 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Mea Culpa, JimC In-Reply-To: <33705BFB.2B67@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JimC, Robert=20 > I'm guilty of being unclear here. I had your explanation but was still > puzzling (and remain so) over other's (I think Wilbur, Dolores, Walter > perhaps others) quick acceptance of Grandpa Bob. =20 I found Grandpa Bob ok as a "facet" of Robert, part of my acceptance was of Robert, Grandpa Bob, Sieur etc. My acceptance came at a point where Robert asked me to remove his name from the list. I do not think these calls for departure are attractive, but they do elicit my response of "stay!"=20 On this whole questions of bringing in "alters" . . . there may be point for and against the practice, but it is "allowed", by the software setup i mean, I have no control over the id people use in any part of their email address or name. =20 . . . for all my acceptance, there was also a call to Robert as *Robert* to which i would still like a response . . .=20 from a post of mine at that time: | I feel as HooN does, that by bringing in this new earthy facet of | Robert as well as the Sieur (does he have to go altogether?) i am | seeing more of you, but the grandpa is a sponge for our | projections! I can see the merit in that mind you. =20 | How is all this for . . . Robert. How are you Robert.=20 Robert? Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:14:45 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: proprietorship [was: Re: players - JimC] In-Reply-To: <337060DF.5711@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JimC, all > In terms of whose house this is, I assume Walter is paying the bills to > keep this forum open. If I were Walter, this would give me some sense > of proprietorship. =20 It is more than paying the bills, though I do that too . . . it is that I gave it birth. I think the proprietorship (and even the ma / paternal aspects of me have their roots in that. =20 And more than that . . . I have the ability to change the description of the list, and do that occasionally. The description is the "prime directive" (Star Trek jargon i believe). The description defines the boundaries ie scope of the list. Its shape as defined by language. and I have the powers of a "list owner" to change all the software options and access to the list and its archives. The shape of the list as defined by software.=20 I do these jobs "conscientiously", and i think any list owner who is not conscious of the ethical implications should not do the job. I think I shape the list in all these ways and by my participatory facilitation as well. =20 There is more to it, in the description i state that I am the facilitator, and that discussion of my role is integral to the purpose of the list. This is a fuzzy area, one we are learning about, me most of all perhaps. =20 However Robert is right: It is not my list, just as my children are not my children. If ever i wanted to leave I would hand it over somehow. =20 It is not a community either, it is an Internet Mailing List, a new phenomena on our planet! =20 > Perhaps we should be taking up a collection to > support Psyber-L? No. However, from the description: | The list is a place for collaboration in the development of=20 | ethical depth work of a psychological nature on the Internet. =20 | Announcements about various projects will be made in=20 | this list.=20 I have taken the learning from here, as others well might, to do some professional work on the net. At present this involves assisting distributed organizations in the setting up and *facilitation* of lists for their members, staff, teams, committees and so on. The facilitation includes training others to take on the job of list owning and facilitation. =20 Collaborative exploration, and perhaps invitations to do other work of this nature are payment enough for running this list. =20 Again there is more to it: My intention is to run PsyberGroups for a fee. Discussion of this is on our agenda here, Kataryn and i were beginning that, and I said I would write more . . . this is some of the *more*, I hope more will follow . . . In short, my long term plans are that Psybernet as a whole will show a financial return. Psyber-L as one part of that project will always be open and free. Initially I thought the professional aspects would happen much sooner and more easily. This place the Internet, the Web, is more complex than it seems ... as deep as it is wide! Then for a long while, the last 4 years, these explorations seem a worthwhile and necessary, enjoyable step and the professional for-a-fee aspect receded almost completely. Now i think that has become a challenge again for me and perhaps for others too. =20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 07:25:39 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Gender issues.. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sheryl, Tamara, Katarynd, Holly, Kaisa, Is'e (and all) I tread softly here as I note that I speak only for myself, not for you, not for men in particular. Holly said: > > I am a bit slow at responding to anything at the moment > > .... no projections, no intended silence, just exhaustion. > > I won't say exhaustion in rl vs virtual because I do not > > experience rl as necessarily separate from on-line life .... I wish that I could blend the two lives togther, but they often run into conflict together as they represent two separate universes for me. The community of a small agricultural/mining town does not offer the same qualities for discussion and reflection as does this medium. RL does demand much of my/our energies and even finds ways to physically limit access to this on-line reality. Silence is the result in both realities, and with that silence there are costs. Tamara said: > > > Gender issues are a huge part of being online - I've got > > > a few handles(identities) that are more male than female, > > > and whose gender in the member profile is male. Having > > > that freedom to "become" male if I choose to, > > > is somewhat empowering to be able to pick the gender I want to be Tamara, I can't identify with this as I haven't had any such experience. I have to admit that I haven't even thought of it. I have enough to do with trying to express the various aspects of my own being that is contained in a male's body. My choices have been to allow voice to these presenting aspects of self or to give preferencial treatment to the persona that is generally given voice. So how does my being "male" colour my words? Does it colour my words? Holly raised a good point in asking you if you perceived a change in "voice". If it does, is gender then an issue or does it then become a "voice" issue? Sheryl said: > If I can tie in some thoughts about the projections discussed > now... if I changed names or identities wouldn't I only be > complicating the situation? I agree that all that goes on, > particularly on Psyber-L, is not just projections... > identification, rationalization, empathy, sympathy, and > apathy, and many other mechanisms (?) exist as well. Yes, it is not only projections. I have picked out this particular complication for discussion because it presented itselfso vividly. The DreamEvent arose from associations and attendant projections, projections which I feel led to complications in viewing reality, in hearing about reality. We do identify, empathize, rationalize, obfusticate, wander, and confuse those whom we meet here, here and in rl as well. We are after all, human :))) Treading gently, these waters. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:35:16 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Gender Masks :Voice In The Wilderness~~~~ In-Reply-To: <199705071232.HAA26739@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kataryn, > So I am now directing my question to the members? Are we here to > "play" and to wear masks, or are we here for a trusting and meaningfull > exchange and thus, be able to establish reliance in each others spoken > words? Like you I would feel deceived if someone here were using another gender, or identity, in a masked way. I would not feel deceived of course if this happened in an open way. Years ago we had a discussion here between Darwin and Hume, it then became Agnes, and Martha I think (we all knew who was behind the nom de plumes.) I was Agnes and I recall her fondly. She used no paragraphs and few full stops and wrote long posts about people, her relations, neighbours and others in the list. =20 If the id shift were to occur in a context where such id shifts were the norm, where we never knew for sure who was who -- well so be it. I don't go to places like that, but I'd be interested to hear about them. ~~~ My background is in psychodrama and here we use the dramatic format all the time. Role reversal and enactments ~~~ we quickly realise are *never* masks or mere acting or play acting, even though the word role play is used. We all have the ability to enter *authentically* into roles. If I fully become The Sea, then that is both me and the sea. Moreno took this to the nth degree and reversed roles with God. He wrote up his experience in "The Words of the Father". All quite authentic. =20 Isn't it wonderful how this media challenges reality and its nature? Virtual . . . and now in our list at this point, in both this gender thread and in the "players" thread we are looking at Authenticity. Years ago I coined the phrase Virtual Authenticity. I think Moreno's God has that, as does my Agnes. There is more too the idea, some voices here are instantly trustable, others less so (my projection of course ) others become more credible and authentic with time. This sort of authenticity is no guarantee of congruence with what is really out there . . . many meetings f2f do not match the online connection, yet what we have here is authentic all the same. =20 > If we are all but actors/actresses... on a stage, then must part of the > play { to coin JimC's parameters of the nightclub } be wearing the > masks of deceit? > I think not! But then, I am but one voice in this wilderness? ~~~~ I agree . . . I see no deceit here at all. =20 There is the question of the self and other. If we are other, then that is self too. I cant help but relate all this to the other thread here: Like Robert said, all those identities Grand Pa Bob, Sieur de Cyberie etc are part of the self. But is there a "core"? =20 I think so. I have worked with a few people who have MPD, now DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder. Multiple Personalities. I keep an open mind on them having a core in that context, they may not have one. In the movie of "When Rabbit Howls" (had another name?) in the end she wears that t shirt: 2468 we don't want to integrate! Makes sense. However I know the difference between being Agnes, and Walter. Agnes reveals a quality of Walter that would forever remain veiled without that mask!=20 Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:26:28 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Gender Masks :Voice In The Wilderness~~~~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All... Kataryn, I think you nailed it when you said: > > So I am now directing my question to the members? Are we here to > > "play" and to wear masks, or are we here for a trusting and meaningfull > > exchange and thus, be able to establish reliance in each others spoken > > words? To me trust is a key element in cyberspace, whether on Psyber-L, IRC or AOL chat, or individual on line relationships. I would rather another trust me than see me as a masked player of one kind of another. I was born female, I like it, and once I became more able to identify all the patriarchal (the use of that word in itself I realize is enough to make someone's hair stand on end) control BS, I understood the gift of being feminine. My feminine existence right now is powerful so I don't feel a need to switch gender or identity, but just revel in who I am. I try to adapt it to the system, which is still patriarchal IMO, but I will only compromise to a point. I think I should have said this way back when, but I deeply appreciated Charle's thoughts about this and patriarchy. It doesn't seem to me that too many men have that deep an understanding of it and its effect on women, but Charles seemed to have that understanding. Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:29:24 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Heartbeats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dolores.. I am pretty sure I heard your heart beat, please keep us posted on how the trip of the wild mare went... And I hope you were not tamed. :) Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:34:09 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Heartbeats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AND never will be tamed. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:19:17 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: Mea Culpa, JimC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JimC, At 06:39 1997-05-07 -0400, you wrote to Robert: >I've thought about your question to me re. my own projections towards >you. This is a fair question and I realize I owe you an apology. Why apologies? All perceptions are not always projections. Maybe there is an unconscious hook in a person on whom we cast our projections. Without the hook the projection is impossible. Have you ever seen Truffaut=92s film Jules and Jim? There was a woman Catherine, who unconsciously attracted men=B4s anima projections. She was a seductress= - a femme fatale, an unconscious women , she didn=92t know herself. She had a very deep narcissistic wound. A womanizer is like Catherine, a very attractive person whom others love, envy and hate. I love very much Fellini, who was a great womanizer - but he knew himself - he had sense of humour and self-irony. =20 At 03:22 1997-04-14 -0700, Charles Cameron wrote to Robert: =20 >And I *think* what is going on here is that *for Robert*, these are >actually key issues. I *intuit* in other words that Robert is working on >himself in a style which makes stringent demands in these very areas: thou >shalt not unnecessarily accept others perceptions of yourself as accurate >until and unless you have validated them by finding those selfsame >perceptions within yourself, and, thou shalt not apologize for that which >others make of what you do... or words to those effects. > >So, first, I want to ask Robert, am I right in guessing that the >"existentialist counseling" approach has something very important to do >with the way in which you handle the results of your disconnecting from >Marie and the Dream Event, somewhat along the lines that I'm suggesting >here? > >And second, if that's the case, can you not see, Robert, with your >troubadour courtesy that the curtness of this particular >existential approach -- while it may have validity as a kind of tough love, >or as a means of cutting away from self-victimization, or refusal to be >what the twelve-step programs would call an "enabler" of the projections or >self-victimizations of others -- is utterly lacking in some essential and >compassionate components of the larger human picture? > >I am suggesting that you may play the troubadour in inviting projections >and the existentialist in cutting them, and that this itself is >problematic. I have nothing against troubadours, and nothing either >against attempts to get individuals in therapeutic situations to accept >their share of the blame for the ways in which they victimize themselves. >But while I think that this therapeutic approach is one that may give >necessary insights on occasion, I do not think it is in all ways >encompassingly adequate to all projective situations. JimC, you are right, there are unsanswered questions. Robert has never answered to Charles=92 questions. Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:28:38 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Subject: Mea Cupla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JimC, Thank you for your post :) I am glad that we are able to build our own discussion and relation based on who we are instead of who we resemble in triggered memories. > I'm guilty of being unclear here. I had your explanation but was still > puzzling (and remain so) over other's (I think Wilbur, Dolores, Walter > perhaps others) quick acceptance of Grandpa Bob. Your transformation > into Grandpa Bob seemed to be accepted as quite natural by them. The transformation (not really a transformation, in reality a re-naming as a result of the word "sieur" causing problems of perception) to Grandpa Bob was due to a visit by my daughter, her husband and their child, my grandson. No deep psychological games being played other than a celebration of being so blessed. The reaction to the re-naming was interesting. Regardless of what name is used, I remain Robert to me. I wrote in response to you: > Jim, there have been no other directed questions from you to me, > no other "dialogues". This leaves me wondering "why?". Your anger > towards me comes from what roots? When speaking of projections it might > be a good idea to think of potential projections that you are dealing > with here. Are you flustered by the direct dialogues with me, or are you > picking up on the "group shadow" image of me and joining the group in > acceptable behaviour? to which you replied: > I have no directed questions to you that are unanswered. My post was > based on a belief that others had unanswered questions - I believe one > of the first posts I read after joining Psyber-L was from Wilbur and > ended with "Robert, I asked you a question." Since then, it seems the > questions have grown - but this may be only my impression and it isn't > necessarily appropriate or helpful for me to be 'caretaking' by trying > to amplify others questions. I agree that there are many unanswered questions, a situation that has/had many unforeseen consequences. That I, or anyone is expected to respond to all questions addressed is not a manageable feat. Time must be spent in many domaines and there must be some room for "tension". By tension, I am thinking in Jungian terms in which response is sometimes delayed in order to allow a newer "perception" to emerge, potentially a deeper perception. > In this case though, my actions may be misplaced, if others > have unanswered questions, I'll leave the asking to them. At the same > time, I offer the observation to the group that there is blockage around > Robert. Perhaps the difficulty in moving on to new topics extends from > aiming to avoid? I agree with Anita when she says that there is no need to apologize, nor do I see a reason for you to "not ask". Questions may or may not find a response, but there is value for the questionner as well as the questionned in having the questions asked. Yes, there is "blockage" around "Robert". It would do the list a world of good to find that there is a "raison d'etre" which is not based on any one character (real or imagined). The difficulty lies not in the unanswered questions but rather in the unasked questions, the unvoiced issues. Who will do the asking, the leading? > I've thought about your question to me re. my own projections towards > you. This is a fair question and I realize I owe you an apology. I > have connected you with a former colleague who I came to dislike > intensely. Enough said, the need for apology is not present, but I do appreciate having knowledge of the background to this expression of "feeling". Thank you for its sharing. I look forward to more of this discussion. Robert de Cyberie He was popular with women, and avoided by men. At the same time as he seduced his students and associates with his sensitivity and thoughtfulness - he abused his wife and neglected to support his children. As a man, I was (am) outraged. Now Robert, I know you are not this person and I apologize for having let some of my old anger settle towards you. I sincerely hope I haven't fallen into "joining the group in acceptable behaviour" and as for being "flustered", my ego simply won't allow that (or at least won't allow the admission of that! ) ...JimC _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L Back to: Top of message | Previous menu | Main PSYBER-L menu _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:45:49 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Subject: Robert????? - Walter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, I'm sorry that I'm proving such a difficult child for you. You wrote: > I found Grandpa Bob ok as a "facet" of Robert, part of my > acceptance was of Robert, Grandpa Bob, Sieur etc. My acceptance > came at a point where Robert asked me to remove his name from the > list. I do not think these calls for departure are attractive, > but they do elicit my response of "stay!" This request had much to do with the "stuck" nature that has plagued this list with the word "Robert". Rather than just chuck in the list and find a new domaine within which to engage in dialogue, I offered the list (and you) an easy way out of the quagmire, the "Shit". I wasn't expecting or needing your expression of "stay", I was expecting movement. > . . . for all my acceptance, there was also a call to Robert as > *Robert* to which i would still like a response . . . > > from a post of mine at that time: > | I feel as HooN does, that by bringing in this new earthy facet of > | Robert as well as the Sieur (does he have to go altogether?) i am > | seeing more of you, but the grandpa is a sponge for our > | projections! I can see the merit in that mind you. > > | How is all this for . . . Robert. How are you Robert. > > Robert? Walter, I am ROBERT. I have used this name since I earliest remembrances. Others have had other names for me such as Bobby, Rob, Bob, etc. I have signed my e-mail with ROBERT even though "sieur" appears as the "from" mailer tag. The "sieur" has cutlural/linguistic/ancestral relevence to me that likely escapes non-francophones, and is one way that I approach myself in a more thoughtful, respectful, serious and meaningful manner. The "sieur" is for me. The ROBERT is who I am ... and I am very comfortable with ROBERT Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:20:23 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: players - JimC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Holly, Robert wrote: > Do you, will you respond ... authentically ... with reflection that looks inward as well as outward? > JimC wrote: >I hope I have responded authentically in my other post. Let me know... and he shoulda wrote: I hope I have responded authentically in my other post. Let me know if you think otherwise ... because you're write Holly, there is no way for Robert to know if I'm being "really authentic". ...JimC PS. and I say this in all seriousness as a female impersonator of some few seconds duration. > >...JimC > > JimC, > Probably just stating the obvious here, but how can Robert determine whether > or not you have responded authentically? > > also > > Robert, > What projections do you (*authentically*) assign to JimC? > > Just curious, > > H. > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:08:09 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Why I am here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wilbur, At 12:09 1997-05-06 -0400, you wrote to Robert: >So, I'd like to ask if you are ready to discuss the dynamics of yourself= and >the list, (I'll bring myself into the discussion as fodder also), along= with >the others on this list. I'd also invite everyone else to express why they >are here.. I'm starting to get the impression that the issues of so called >"silence" here are more about a lack of expression of self than anything >else. People are afraid to express themselves.. (gee that sounds like a >familiar rant.. that my be my projection..) About a year ago I was surfing on the net and searching for a item =94Jungian shadow.=94 I was then making a lecture on =94the shadow in the literature=94. So I found the Psybernet and I checked in. At that time you told on the list something about your family background. It was very interesting. Your voice was so genuine, as was also Dolores=B4, then = Laurel=92s , voice. For that sake I stayed here to listen in both of you. There was then also a guy named Robert de Cyberie, who told of his online relationships with a women. One day the woman came to his home, as far as I remember. It seemed to me Robert didn=92t understand, what was his share in that matter. I was surprised how =94innocent=94 or blind a= man can be. After about a month the Dream Event was beginning. It was to me like made to order, because the dreams have been my special interest over twenty years. I =91m partaking on five lists as a lurker or a very passive member. I= am not afraid to express myself, but I have no much time to write in English. This list makes an exception, this so lively. Other lists are more matter- of- facts - centric., more dry and boring. I am here, because I love the dynamics of this list. Anita =20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 07:26:52 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: players MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kaisa Good to hear your voice again here on PSYBER-L :) When speaking of your experiences you commented: > What a battle it has been to try to overcome that need to be perfect. > Jungian Marion Woodman explains this so well in her book ADDICTION TO > PERFECTION; The Still Unravished Bride. As Woodman writes, :: Essentially I am suggesting that many of us - men and women- :: are addicted in one way or another because our patriarchal :: culture emphasizes specialiazation and perfection. Driven to :: do our best at school, on the job, in our relationships - in :: every corner of our lives - we try to make ourselves into works :: of art. Working so hard to create our own perfection we forget :: that we are human beings. ... We are trapped in the extremes :: of the gods, territory that doesn't belong to us. This shows itself here. Thanks for tossing this in, a reminder that we are people, not archetypes. I have to plead guilty of having this addiction. > shadow, both dark AND golden. I only wish I would have had someone > who had the ability to guide me through my online underworld (or is > that Tuonela?). On the other hand, I don't think I'm totally out > yet.... You and me both. I KNOW that I'm still wandering through the underworld (or in Hollis' terms, the "swamplands of the soul". Just a note, yesterday evening we had a brief blizzard which cast a temporary blanket of white on our greening grass. I had to cancel the idea of a golf game :) Peace to you, my fellow Canadian. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:21:13 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Tamara Streett Subject: Gender'ing around All, Interesting responses to my statement about having a handle that I've determined to be male. I notice that I'm one of the few AOLer's on this list - and I specifically created this "person" to be able to meander around cyberspace as a male to combat the "meat market" that AOL has occasionally become. I don't get instant message from guys (maybe it's a guy) like BODYGODNJ that like to send cute little IMs like "hi, I see you're from Hazlet, interested in a quickie?", when I'm trying to check stock quotes or read the new messages in the Moms Online folder. The realities.... cyberspace for some is nothing more than a big pickup joint, they (and it's men as well as women) check profiles looking for someone to engage in an instant message or IRC chat. Wilbur can tell you stories of how at parties at our home, we take the uninitiated internet user to the computer, create an imaginary person, assign a profile and handle and go trolling around for a "date". Yeh, it's baiting. Yeh, sometimes we get some kook that continues to send messages long after the demonstration. No, we never engage in a emotional discussion or lead anyone on for more than a few minutes. That would not be fair. Think about it - is it any different than calling some 900 number and speaking with a sexy woman only to find out she's home, ironing her clothes, and feeding the baby while talking about how hot she is for you. Or any different than meeting a man at a bar who says he's not married and in town for the trade show and turns out to be married and on the board of education at his child's elementary school? There are some reasons for deception that are not cruel and some that are very cruel.... T _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:18:50 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Robert????? - Walter In-Reply-To: <3370B1BD.695D@sk.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, > I'm sorry that I'm proving such a difficult child for you. =20 You sound sarcastic, as if I am asking you to apologise, like a parent, and you are obeying like a child, all the while thinking there is nothing to apologise for, that I am too parental and that you are not a child. =20 " Why send that? I am in a conflict . . . it feels futile to respond. Silence is more authentic. I have a hope he will see something . . . but i abandon the hope . . . I do not want to see the focus go onto helping Robert change . . . though many thoughtful offers have been made . . . nor do i want to attack Robert, though i have a sense he feels attacked (see Anita's quote of charles's post). I would be best to ignore. Others will respond and resolve this. I need to take responsibility for my response. Perhaps i am projecting. I dont like the tone in my voice. Perhaps this is friendly banter? Perhaps this is authentic sarcasm. Am i doing the typical email thing of misunderstanding. No, I understand all right, but will be accused of misunderstanding? I am driven to silence . . . don't post this! Ignore as response is futile. It is all my projection. Projection into a sentence designed unconsciously to elicit projection . . . Anita is right, there is a hook. Responding is to take the bait. Not responding is to leave it for others to take the bait. awareness of hooks. Bring consciousness. Bring the stream of consciousness. bring the conflict. Post the musings i do in my silences. Give voice to the silence. The silences are full of this sort of noise. If i experience this others probably do, i am not unique. Inner dialogues are boring for others . . . " Your one sentence above evokes this in me, and more.=20 ~~~ You wrote re your request that i remove you: > This request had much to do with the "stuck" nature that has plagued > this list with the word "Robert". Rather than just chuck in the list > and find a new domaine within which to engage in dialogue, I offered = the > list (and you) an easy way out of the quagmire, the "Shit". I wasn't > expecting or needing your expression of "stay", I was expecting > movement. The list can't remove you. I did not take up the invitation, and I think that strengthened the cohesion here, that was movement. Taking up your request would have flawed the process badly I think. Discussion about that right now is useful, as it relates to the nature and ethics of list owning, and proprietorship that is on the agenda. I hope that we can discuss the ethical questions. =46rom a list dynamic point of view our stuckness, if that is what it is, is part of the "meta-life" of Psybernet, your leaving by my hand would not solve a thing. How is the word "Robert" a problem? Is this back to FRITZ's notion that we are our email address here? Perhaps this is why you are a "significant player". What seems to you like and offer of an easy way out, to me seems like a huge hook (now that it has been named it is easier to see). Messy. I say this not as an attack, but as reflection. With that move, your move, you make an impact on the very edges, on the boundaries, on the structure of the temenos. You do it . . . this is not asking you for any sort of apology . . . or to answer more questions . . . I do invite more reflection . . . ~~~ > > | How is all this for . . . Robert. How are you Robert. > > > > Robert? > Walter, I am ROBERT. I have used this name since I earliest > remembrances. Others have had other names for me such as Bobby, Rob, > Bob, etc. I have signed my e-mail with ROBERT even though "sieur" > appears as the "from" mailer tag. The "sieur" has > cutlural/linguistic/ancestral relevence to me that likely escapes > non-francophones, and is one way that I approach myself in a more > thoughtful, respectful, serious and meaningful manner. The "sieur" is > for me. The ROBERT is who I am ... and I am very comfortable with > ROBERT I appreciate your clarity here. I experience authentic dialogue at this point. I have a sense of a more solid Robert. =20 In addition I feel a little misunderstood . . . I asked how Robert was, I was wondering if there were subtle differences as you explored the various names. I think you have written more on that in another post, about the various aspects of you and how you feel . . . it does seem that there is a Robert somewhat distinct from the online Robert=20 They evoke different responses in me, i know when i use different names i feel different . . . Wouter is my dutch name, given at birth . . . were i to use that i would feel like another person, a child, a teenager, but not this 52 year old man. Wouter is shy, inarticulate, speaks an antiquated anglicised Dutch. =20 All for now, Walter. _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:59:09 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Projections, Alters, Genders, Facilitations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, There are many seemingly disparate threads here and I was drawn to answer several posts - but this felt fragmented and wrong. Then in reading through the posts of the past few days I came across some words from Walter (I think) who suggested a connection existed between the discussions of Alters and of Gender Masks. This struck a chord with me that has been resonating all day. Now the kids are in bed, Laurie's out to choir, work can go to hell 'till tomorrow - and I can try to pull my meanderings together. I'm disturbed by the recent requests by Robert and Dolores to be removed from the list by Walter. Walter has hinted in his response to Robert that these kinds of request are not unusual in Psyber-L. What is the dynamic in this? The Listserv appends to every post explicit directions on how to leave. We each have our own remote and can change channels at any time we choose, so why ask to be removed? Is this the cyberspace equivalent of the situations I would encounter with ambivalent suicides when I worked in the hospital, their message was "Save me, I want to die." For those of us who had worked there some years, this engendered some nonchalance, after all, those who really wanted to die - were dead. Trust cannot be achieved under the gun, and its irrelevant whose head the gun is pointed at. Robert, you are the center of many things here. On the one hand, you appear as authentic and direct - on the other, dissociated and oblique. Perhaps this is no where more clear than in your use of alters. To you these names are expressions of different aspects of self, to me, they appear as fragments of self, each alter a glimpse of Robert, yet no one alter is a complete and self-sustaining being. Wilbur, Walter and Charles (thanks for this connection Anita) have both commented that they believe you are trying to reconcile these aspects of self. I hope this will prove true. I would ask though, how can an individual exercise this self fragmentation and retain their integrity of self? Tamara, your support for the use of Gender Masks has touched off many responses, most of which have (IMO) tended to be against their use. The allegation would be that your occasional adoptance of a male alter represented a failure on your part to fully celebrate your own femininity (is this a fair approximation Sheryl?) You have also asked, >Think about it - is it any different than calling some 900 number and >speaking with a sexy woman only to find out she's home, ironing her clothes, >and feeding the baby while talking about how hot she is for you. Or any >different than meeting a man at a bar who says he's not married and in town >for the trade show and turns out to be married and on the board of education >at his child's elementary school? > I'd answer, yes it is different from your first example, but not from your second. The caller to the 900 number and woman ironing have a contract - he is purchasing a fantasy and she is providing one. If she is able to fulfil her side of the contract and multitask on household chores, then good for her. In your other example though, the man at the bar is behaving in a manner consistent with your household guests "trolling for a date online". The man is practicing a deliberate deception with the purpose of exploiting another for personal gratification. Your guest is doing the same thing only the reward is a chuckle "Ho Ho, check out this weirdo!" instead of sex. At what point does adopting a gender mask cease being self-exploration and become a denial of self and an exploitation of others? Walter and facilitation, participating and facilitating at the same time. With all these currents flowing, tides and trickles, projections and hooks - and all without the context of voice and face and movement, you are brave or foolish and likely both. I have suggested you are a hub, and I believe more than ever that this true - some of the time. You are also a catalyst, a guide, a cheerleader, a proprietor, a parent and ??? Is the discussion of the facilitation a vehicle for discussing the group's perceived loss of focus? On the surface plane, all is disconnected - Robert, Gender, Alters, Facilitation. Underlying though is a theme of fragmented identity. Around Robert, this is at the individual level. Around Gender at the societal level. Around Alters at the internet level and around Facilitation, at the Psyber-L level. I'd suggest that the opposite of fragmentation is integrity, and integrity is the power we experience when thought, feeling, action and communication are all in alignment. Tamara said, >There are some reasons for deception that are not cruel and some that are >very cruel.... Doesn't deception always do violence to the integrity (and self esteem) of the deceiver? Sheryl, Kataryn and Wilbur, you and others have stated a need for authenticity here in Psyber-L. A belief that this place requires others to reveal of themselves and their motivations for being here. A desire for this to be a place without masks. Yet this is so difficult! In this place we all have the power to compose - given linguistic skill any one of us can portray ourselves as another sex, self-fragment or person. Given software skill, we can bounce messages to Psyber-L and mask not only that we are the sender but even the country we are in. We can read daily and answer immediately, monthly or not at all. We can avoid the questions we don't like "Sorry I've been busy". Given all this, to grant trust in this environment is simply illogical and reticence is rational. Yet we (I) want to be trusting. Maybe some of us are we like the caller to the 900 number, in need of a contract - an agreement that suspends our distrust and disbelief - so that here, in this strange place where time zones, oceans and continents become transparent - we can 'test the envelope' of interaction. I guess I'm suggesting some new ground rules be developed. Perhaps starting with a commitment that there can be no alters in Psyber-L. So? ...JimC _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:15:21 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: HBGillcash Subject: Re: Gender'ing around Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tamara, I thought about this after I posted my message ... about the general safety/harassment concerns of life on-line. My husband is on AOL ....I was truly surprised by the buddy monitoring system AOL has. In short, you can tailor your program to detect when certain IDs come on-line. It has been fun to bump into a sister-in-law in cyberspace, but I can imagine it could be tiresome and/or frightening to have someone "watching" or dropping inappropriate comments (sounds like verbal flashing to me!) I have a friend who was tracked down and visited at work by a person she spoke with on-line. Nothing *bad* happened, but she was frightened by how easily the person tracked her by her email address. Then again, how much of this is exactly what we find "off-line" ...it just seems novel because it has the mystery of bits and bites, not to mention increased access to information. I find myself now wondering if this "real world" on-line (what happens on AOL for example) makes the discussion of name/identity too serious and self-involved.... but then catch myself in the trap of saying "real world" on-line vs .... vs. what? What is "real world"? Do we have divisions, now, not only between on/off screen but also a division between "general on-line society" (AOL) and smaller communities such as Psyber-L? The Psyber-L listserv can be frustrating, but it seems to have many qualities I admire. Perhaps I underestimate the importance of feeling safe in using my name. How are these niches created? The rules may be different due to the different lanscapes.... H. P.S. Just finished JimC's post and realize he takes these thoughts musch further ... _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:58:03 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Gender'ing around MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Holly! You began bringing together some of my seemingly unrelated thoughts and feelings and pondering of JimC's questions about identity, and how it relates to trust. I suspect I may be repeating what you both are saying, but anyway... Holly, you said: > I thought about this after I posted my message ... about the general > safety/harassment concerns of life on-line. My husband is on AOL ....I was > truly surprised by the buddy monitoring system AOL has. In short, you can > tailor your program to detect when certain IDs come on-line. It has been > fun to bump into a sister-in-law in cyberspace, but I can imagine it could > be tiresome and/or frightening to have someone "watching" or dropping > inappropriate comments (sounds like verbal flashing to me!) After more than two years on AOL, I knew that anyone I chatted with on line could within minutes end our chat and come back as another identity. If I began chatting with someone, he or she could potentially be anyone else in the world, my ex husband, a lover, son, friend, teacher, next door neighbor, and on and on. In addition, the buddy system mentioned by you Holly, meant that if I remained who I was with my own identity, I could be monitored by anyone as well, including all of the above. So in being firm in remaining who I am and not playing in the identity/gender fun house, essentially I believe I set myself up to be constantly and continually tested in who I am, IMO, a huge risk in itself. I think, in many ways, it's almost a phenomenon that someone has to experience to have any kind of understanding of the true risks in remaining who one is. The results, IMO, has produced fascinating results objectively. But subjectively, I've experienced joy, hope, betrayal, grief, pain, sorrow, and almost every other emotion I can think of on the continuum of emotion. Like I said above, though... I think it's necessary to experience it to understand it. The gender connection comes to me in what I perceive to be more feminine qualities, warmth, openness, vulnerability, and acceptance. I realize saying this could be flame bait, but oh well. I believe those to be wonderful qualities, in anyone, male or female. I don't perceive them to be gullible or naive or *weak*, although I know they are frequently valued by the *system* that way. Tamara, how would I know whether you've ever struck up a chat with me on AOL? Could you have been the man who wanted to chat one day about having penile cancer and having his penis removed? That he felt like a man AND a woman and didn't know how to deal with it? And that his therapist had told him it would be good for him to chat with others on line about it? Was what he saying bullshit or was he really in pain? Could you have been that man one day, testing me out for acceptance, and in the meantime had another identity as one of my most treasured on line relationships? Or on line/real life relationships? Or real life relationships? I hope I've pulled my thoughts together a little (with Holly's help), Jim, to make sense and that it answers some of your questions, and why I seek authenticity. If I haven't explained it well, I'll try again another day. Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:21:53 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Projections, Alters, Genders, Facilitations In-Reply-To: <3372A10D.D56@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JimC, I was delighted with your unifying post. Naming the unity clearly. I see it clearly but it is hard to name. =20 The two words:=20 fragmented identity are good go at naming the theme. It fits with such threads as: How do I know I am here? Who Am I? Which have had some currency. This medium does provoke that theme. Even Dan's notion of meta-life . . . that the "seemingly disparate" threads form a life of their own fits with your brief summation. Did I say that I have recently made arrangements to complete my psychodrama thesis? I have put it aside for 5 yrs, but with a change in me and a change in the organization here, suddenly there was an opening where it all felt OK to do, wheareas previously it did not. The thesis has a working titile "Identifying the Protagonist". It relates to this topic of identifying the central theme . . . which related in turn to identifying the most apt metaphor. I have no doubt that there is value in diversity, seeing the multiplicity (note illusion to multiple identity) in things, in the list is important. Hillman's alerted me to this, that we can be poly-theists. =20 Yet of all the many "patterns of the soul" (tm for the book I fantasise about writing) that may be occuring at once, one is central for a while, has its moment on the stage as it were. The person whose own internal dynamics resonate broadly with that pattern could be identified as the protagonist. =20 It is obvious really, that if fragmented identity is a central pattern among the many patterns, then as individuals we resonate with that theme in different ways. Some may be fully in touch with one aspect of the pattern, one *extreme* of it. (I am thinking of course of Marie's post with that title, and her own seeking of "boundaries", and her choice to listen). Others may identify with other aspects of the pattern. If there is a protagonist, someone who carries the broad pattern within their one soul, then the list / group is very useful for them, and they are of great use to the group. =20 ~~~ That was an aside, hopefully of interest and relevant. =20 I begn to respond to your post Jim, simply to add one or two minor points. > that has been resonating all day. Now the kids are in bed, Laurie's out > to choir, work can go to hell 'till tomorrow - and I can try to pull my > meanderings together. This was not one of them, but it is so nice to hear about the context of your writing. To return in kind: I am at my mountain retreat, just Kate & I and the dog, Kate is out for morning run, I am ruining my body at the machine here and with coffee. The native beech trees arond me, the silence apart from the crackle of the fire, make this idillic, I feel . . . blessed, what else can I say. ~~~ Here is one point: =20 > I'm disturbed by the recent requests by Robert and Dolores to be = removed > from the list by Walter. Walter has hinted in his response to Robert > that these kinds of request are not unusual in Psyber-L. What is the > dynamic in this? No it is not frequent at all, sorry if I gve that impression, it is unique to those two requests which came close together, and reflecting on them as you are doing, I thought it worth adding this addendum. What does happen is that people who sometimes get on the list, perhaps people totally new to the media, suddenly get flooded by this mail and then have trouble getting off, that is not frequent but it happens, it is very different from the requests we are talking about. ~~~ Another addendum: > The > allegation would be that your occasional adoptance of a male alter > represented a failure on your part to fully celebrate your own > femininity (is this a fair approximation Sheryl?)=20 I am not speaking for Sheryl or Tamara, but doing my own reflection on this . . .=20 ~~~ The fragmentation manifests itself in the facilittion, I think thais is your point, and I think you are right. > Walter and facilitation, participating and facilitating at the same > time. With all these currents flowing, tides and trickles, projections > and hooks - and all without the context of voice and face and movement, > you are brave or foolish and likely both. I have suggested you are a > hub, and I believe more than ever that this true - some of the time. > You are also a catalyst, a guide, a cheerleader, a proprietor, a parent > and ??? Is the discussion of the facilitation a vehicle for discussing > the group's perceived loss of focus? I think I am all these things and more, and without knocking the idea that we have fragmentation here, I think many of my roles do make up the "roles of the facilitator" a good facilitator can unite a package of roles (functions, ways of being . . . I use the word role *without* the connotation of mask.) =20 The function and scope of Psybernet is *broad*, but I do not see this as a loss of focus. Metaphor: Mall, with PsyberGroups such as the DreamEvent one of the shops. It does mean that we are trying to do here, what rightly belongs in one of the shops. That *is* fragmenting. =20 ~~~ Solutions? More discussion rather than changes right now IMO. > Maybe some > of us are we like the caller to the 900 number, in need of a contract - > an agreement that suspends our distrust and disbelief - so that here, > in this strange place where time zones, oceans and continents become > transparent - we can 'test the envelope' of interaction. I guess I'm > suggesting some new ground rules be developed. =20 This makes sense to me. In Psyber-L we can *expect* some fragmentation, uncertainty, un trustworthyness even. It goes with the nature of the net, and if we expect it, live with it, and develop ethics that spell out what is OK and what is not, New Ethics for Psyberspace, that would be a good move. > Perhaps starting with a > commitment that there can be no alters in Psyber-L. So? By alters do you men people using email addresses nd names in a masked way, logging on as another? Or is even the change of name using the same email adress as Robert has done something youd be agin? =20 I think both are OK. OK for Psyber-L. However I can see us doing what I used to do on the BBS. Have a list (a PsyberGroup) where membership was monitored, and the name and address and phone number of each member was known to the facilitator, or even to the whole group. No one to join until there was the call back check. That would still be open to abuse, but it would be harder, and more in the nature of fraud and deceit if it were part of the explicit membership procedure. These norms would not be appropriate for Psyber-L, and perhaps not even desirable. =20 We could also jave a list where we all logged on in any way we liked. When we did that on the BBS, on of the peopl logged on as Spooky, Agnes's cat. I am not sure to this day who that was! =46or all that I am not ready to run *any* PsyberGroup at the moment. I don't think Psyber-L is either. Rl has demands enough, and committmet to another list draws enegy from this one, and creates complications for it as well. Hence I am more thoughtful and conscious than I was on this having learnt the pitfalls. =20 I'd love to find a way through . . . I think this sort of discussion is a great step. =20 I also think that a re-appraisal of the Psyber-L description is in ortder, one that spells out more clearly what the current one spells out in a *fragmented* way. This list does have an id, but it can be drawn together more. It might just need to live along side some other assocoated PsyberGroups to define its id? ~~~ Its much later in the day, Kate & I have ben chatting and housekeeping, I might make a late lunch . . . Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:21:20 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Cold simple truth.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, In answer to your question of why I posted the Cold, hard, simple truth message.. There was one answer that I should have given, but for some reason I didn't connect with it until yesterday. Yesterday I realized that Julia is trying to talk.. and I realized that the Cold, Hard, Simple Truth message also came from the understanding of my infant daughter and the realization that her life exists without words.. Nothing like looking at the world through new eyes to see.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 07:28:14 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: Projections, Alters, Genders, Facilitations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Holly, Sheryl, Tamara, Walter, I'm mulling over Sheryl and Holly's last posts under [Gender'ing around] and realizing that I missed (ignored) the safety aspect of taking on an alter. As my wife has occasionally pointed out to me, since I'm a 6'3" white male living in one of the safest countries in the world, I tend to ignore concerns of physical threat. In real life, when I want to walk alone at midnight I can, and the only threat I worry about is "of rain". My wife of course, has no such freedom and would walk at night only with the companionship of a large dog, a friend and constant vigilance. I have been on AOL in the past when I took the bait (sign up now! 50 free hours!) It was actually my first on line experience (other than the company email system) and I found AOL confusing and disconcerting. First off, the signup procedure influences you to take an online ID that is different from your name (I became SwamiJC). Secondly, you then have the option of creating 4 or 5 more ID's, each of which can have its own profile. Then I started wandering around, essentially bumping into things - I was not myself and neither it seemed, was anyone else. I quickly ran from the chat and discussion areas and used the free hours to download software and surf the web. It strikes me now that AOL is an almost ideal environment for 'cyberstalkers', it is a place that encourages its members to fragment their identities. AOL is also a uniquely American environment. I say American based on the observation that America is a country built on the core value of Individual Freedom and that has gone to extraordinary lengths to guarantee and protect individual rights and freedoms. This has been done in a lop sided way that failed to recognize the 2 key (and paradoxical) elements of freedom, namely 'freedom to' and 'freedom from'. To take an example, in the States almost all citizens have the freedom to purchase deadly weapons. This is in support of their freedom to defend themselves. The result, that today there are more handguns than citizens, guarantees large numbers of guns are in the hands of irresponsible and/or antisocial owners. This subset of gun owners then takes away the rest of the citizens' freedom from being shot at. In other words, the 'freedom to own weapons', has reduced 'freedom from harm' and curtailed the 'freedom to walk at night'. Similarly, AOL in codifying the freedom to adopt alter id's, reduces 'freedom from harassment' and this way limits the freedom to be one's self. Of course, AOL is not alone in this, its true of the internet in general - its just that AOL makes it so easy to adopt an alter that the behaviour is more apparent. So where has this long (too long?) discussion taken me? Perhaps back to a previous question, >Doesn't deception always do violence to the integrity (and self esteem) >of the deceiver? Cyberspace while different from "real life" is also in a sense, just an extension of real life. Netizens are people extending themselves into a new environment and we necessarily carry our baggage with us. When we adopt an "alter id", we do violence to our own identity and unleash our Id. Indulging this freedom then creates an environment where it is a risk to be one's self. The price of netizenship becomes the destruction of one's identity (by adopting an alter id for safety's sake). Even more sadly, the "feminine" qualities identified by Sheryl become the first sacrifice and the "male" qualities, thus isolated, become unbalanced. So I'm back to gender, and I'm wondering "what are the freedoms from, that would allow the freedom to celebrate gender in safety?" ...Jim PS. I'd like to lose "JimC" and go back to "Jim", this was intended to help distinguish between "Jim the Elder" and myself but I think our voices are distinct enough that there shouldn't be any confusion. I'll still post from "JFCalder" PSS. Thanks for your post Walter and the clarifications, I'm particularly glad the 'remove me from the list' requests are not a common occurrence. I'm also pleased my musings were not heard as pontificatings - thanks to Sheryl and Holly too, for that. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:23:07 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: players - JimC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Holly, Robert is ufficient, the use of sieur is only in the header, grandpa bob ... I've explained about at length already ... I hope this is the end of that discussion. > Robert, Grampa Bob, Sieur.... > > Well, I am glad you are back with words! I agree, I am not a visual artist :) When I saw the results posted even I had cause to wonder what it would bb/could be representing. I hope that you read what was intended. You quote my words to Jim then ask: > >The question again comes up, "WHY?" What projections have been touched > >off, what reflections were seen, what shadows were encountered? Do you, > >will you respond ... authentically ... with reflection that looks inward > >as well as outward? > > Why is it always about others' *projections*? You'll note from Jim's reply to me that my question was indeed relevant. He responded in a manner that confirmed my question. The question came out of the dialogue that had been in process. Since there was a relational stance that had no historical basis between the two of us I naturally deduced that the roots to the emotion were elsewhere ... this is a valid conclusion especially when working within the domaine of depth psychology. My next question is now addressed to you. Why the antagonism? > How can you question others' authenticity of response? > What need of it of yours to require others > "inward reflection as well as outward" when > you do not articulate your own? > > When you post, who are you challenging, JimC or yourself? Very good! Of course I am challenging both of us. That is the best way to ensure that I am staying authentic and not just dallying with words to weigh their effect. As to the "challenging of authenticity", it is critical if one is to ever be able to speak "in trust" with the other(s). As for my use of authentic dialogue, do you doubt it? Who is subject to scrutiny here and why? Who spoke from the heart about relation authentically knowing that on-line relation was an experience that most had occasion to experience? What was the fallout of honestly sharing the ebb and flow of human relation? ... the listener? (silence) ... or the noisy one? Are you being authentic in presenting your feelings? About the sources, the roots of your feelings? ... I don't really expect answers to these questions. They are meant for drawing attention to a problem using this medium in a counselling/therapy context. After all, that is one of the visions that many of us here share. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:47:16 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: players - JimC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, You wrote: >I hope I have responded authentically in my other post. Let me know ... If it is up to me to decide, I would consider whether or not you have indicated that you had heard me and thus addressed my questions to you. A response so framed would then be taken to be authentic. I do sense that you try hard to hear my words (which are also coloured by the echoes being heard from other voices which makes it difficult to hear the singular voice) an honour me with a sharing of your words :))) I wrote this response not because it appeared to be needed by you, but because of Holly's question to you: > Probably just stating the obvious here, > but how can Robert determine whether > or not you have responded authentically? As for assigning "projections" to you, do you feel that I have done this? If so, what gives rise to that thought? If not, I wonder why this questions exists. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:47:29 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Mea Culpa, JimC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anita, You respond to Jim's reply to me with: > >I've thought about your question to me re. my own projections towards > >you. This is a fair question and I realize I owe you an apology. > = > Why apologies? All perceptions are not always projections. Maybe > there is an unconscious hook in a person on whom we cast our > projections. I had not thought about this when responding to the = projection/transference that occurred between Jim and myself. Now that = you have voiced this, I realize that you are indeed correct. Now I am = left to search for that hook upon which the projection was cast. You also use Charles' words as a springboard for comment: > JimC, you are right, there are unsanswered questions. = > Robert has never answered to Charles=92 questions. And, would you be willing to be so self-introspective in this = environment? Does that lessen the value and authenticity of the words I = do speak? Would I have more of your respect if I stayed forever in the = zone of polite non-controversial comment? Anita, as a member of the = DreamEvent, you well know that there is a second side to the shattered = dream(s), a side that is perpetually silent. Why the need to divide the = roles into opposites when each of us within the drama contained all the = potential opposites. = The fragmentation that is evident has more to do with the = externalising and assigning of archetypal roles than with the nature of = each of us being complex human creatures. Robert de Cyberie > = > Anita > = > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:20:00 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Gender Masks :Voice In The Wilderness~~~~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, You wrote in reply to Kataryn: > There is the question of the self and other. If we are other, > then that is self too. I cant help but relate all this to the > other thread here: Like Robert said, all those identities Grand > Pa Bob, Sieur de Cyberie etc are part of the self. But is there > a "core"? > > I think so. Let's not leave out the reality that each person we meet has a conceptualization of us that is perceived as a "reality". We are not the sum of these perceptions, we are "core" beings born into an environment and body and a time. This "core" is composed of a small conscious "Self" and a massive unconscious "self". That stated, we begin a search for those hidden, shadowed aspects, aspects that stand in relation to a larger sense of being, the SELF. It's good to know that you "think" I might have a core. Am I being sarcastic? Yes! Was it necessary? Look to your words and ask that of yourself. That I am spoken about rather than spoken to, reduced to being a "third person singular", a shadow of a person. You have followed these words with : > I have worked with a few people who have MPD, now DID, > Dissociative Identity Disorder. Multiple Personalities. I keep > an open mind on them having a core in that context, they may not > have one. Am I an experiment in on-line therapy, and is this a diagnosis based on our trusty DSM-IV? Perhaps I am reading too much in the proximity of one comment with the other. After all, you weren't addressing me and I may not be in the right to respond to the references to this shadow, this list archetype. You have been expressing dis-ease in reference to me. How can we best resolve that dis-ease (I say "we" because this is a relational problem)? Can it be done here where the temenos of the list is hurting? Why is the temenos hurting? What sense of safety is there? Do you truly see me as the author of that lack of safety? Imagine that you are a newbie and you were to "lurk" and thus hear the dialogues of late. Would you be willing to speak "authentically" about "issues"? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:20:14 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Why I am here MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anita, > About a year ago I was surfing on the net and searching for a item > =94Jungian shadow.=94 I was then making a lecture on =94the shadow in t= he > literature=94. So I found the Psybernet and I checked in. At that t= ime > you told on the list something about your family background. It was ver= y > interesting. Your voice was so genuine, as was also Dolores=B4, then Lau= rel=92s > , voice. For that sake I stayed here to listen in both of you. There w= as > then also a guy named Robert de Cyberie, who told of his online > relationships with a women. One day the woman came to his home, as= > far as I remember. Anita, the posts are all available on the web at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html If you re-read them, you will find nothing about the last comment you attri= bute = to me. Marie, the "other" in this relationship, was/is a member of PSYBER-= L. = She lives in a different country from me an many miles/kilometres away. Th= e = dialogue that we shared with PSYBER-L was risked because we believed that t= his = place was a safe place. Marie's continued silence testifies to the error i= n = that kind of thinking. Is her silence due to me or to the issue of safety = in = speaking out here? > It seemed to me Robert didn=92t understand, what was > his share in that matter. I was surprised how = > =94innocent=94 or blind a man can be. What caused you to think that I took no responsibility for what = transpired? As for being "innocent", why is that so strange? Does this no= t = suit a "man"? Or, are only damsels in distress "innocent"? I hope that these questions cause some thought for the group. = Perspectives are falling out of balance and the temenos of the group is at = risk = =2E.. has been for a long time Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:04:01 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: HBGillcash Subject: Re: players - JimC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Quick reply to a line which caught my eye: >My next question is now addressed to you. Why the >antagonism? To answer a question with a question .... why the assumption of antagonism? When I addressed the posting to you as a series of names, I meant it more as a list of names you had used ...no particular name has a consequence to me and they all seem to belong to the same person. My point was no matter what name you use, it was nice to see/hear your words. I can see why my flurry of questions may seem a barrage, but if I *said* them, I doubt you would hear *anger* . Rather, I offer the questions as challenges to a person who appears not to hesitate in challenging others. I think I asked fair, accurate, and undiluted questions ... I am not a professional in the mental health field, but do have a good deal of practical experience in dealing with people. I sense whenever things get "touchy" on this listserv, many of us hide behind "meta-talking" ---weaving in and out of discussions and discussions about the discussions. Probably the normal ebb and flow of a list like this! Anyway, I think it is healthy to lace discussions which gravitate toward words like counseling, depth psychology, projections and gender with good old-fashioned "what are we really saying ...." "what is happening." Just felt the need to cut to the chase.... H. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:20:30 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Gender Masks :Voice In The Wilderness~~~~ In-Reply-To: <3374F490.5B78@sk.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, > > There is the question of the self and other. If we are other, > > then that is self too. I cant help but relate all this to the > > other thread here: Like Robert said, all those identities Grand > > Pa Bob, Sieur de Cyberie etc are part of the self. But is there > > a "core"? > > > > I think so. I understand that it is uncomfortable to be spoken about like this. In another post that arrived just now, (to Holly) you say you hope the discussion about names will end. There was also a post from Jim, re the way AOL fosters fragmentation by asking people to define profiles. That was all news to me, and continues to be interesting. I hope to learn more. Perhaps, as Sheryl said to understand some things we have to experience them. Where I am leading to is that I hope you do not take these things totally personally. Identity and names have been and will be a topic here. It must be, as our identity is challenged here, our gender id is challenged. At any time one of us will, resonate with the group's discussions in a more personal way. I think that means we are doing experiential work. Above, I was simply affirming something you said, ie that your various aspects were all *you*, valid, not masks. I was with you there. I go on to muse, to ponder, partly in general partly about you and partly about my own various aspects here. Is there a core? It was interesting to me, that the person I that film refused to identify a core. James Hillman I find challenging, with his polytheism, which is essentially to say we don't have a core. However his Soul's Code book seems to reverse that idea. There was an invitation, not antagonistic, really, to explore this whole thing experientially. =20 I hear you say that you don't want to go so public here, I am not sure where you draw the line! That line is an interesting one for us all, a good topic! You see how your position may once again be quite central to that topic? The topic is a good one though, and someone else may emerge as being far more central. =20 Once certain themes are resolved in the group, then often, as a new pattern of concern emerges someone else could well be personally more central. =20 Perhaps we (I) need to be conscious of the impact on the individuals when this happens. When we mention new people on the list . . . usually there *is* one, and so on. =20 > Let's not leave out the reality that each person we meet has a > conceptualization of us that is perceived as a "reality". We are not = the > sum of these perceptions, we are "core" beings born into an environment > and body and a time. This "core" is composed of a small conscious = "Self" > and a massive unconscious "self". That stated, we begin a search for > those hidden, shadowed aspects, aspects that stand in relation to a > larger sense of being, the SELF. =20 > It's good to know that you "think" I > might have a core. Am I being sarcastic? Yes! Was it necessary? = Look > to your words and ask that of yourself. That I am spoken about rather > than spoken to, reduced to being a "third person singular", a shadow of= a > person. I was not clear with my words, but after referring to your idea that all the aspects are valid, I continued the more general musings. I was not thinking: Does Robert have a core, any more than do any of us. And yes I think we do .. .=20 But then the exception to this popped into my mind: > You have followed these words with : >=20 > > I have worked with a few people who have MPD, now DID, > > Dissociative Identity Disorder. Multiple Personalities. I keep > > an open mind on them having a core in that context, they may not > > have one. I will not use the pathologising words again. I am not being sarcastic. I do not think of people who have multiple personalities as dis-eased. Nor do I think of dissociation as diseased. I rarely use any sort of medical words. I think with this particular phenomena, I am not so fussed, because there are a lot in the medical world who do not believe in the phenomena. I like to make it clear that I do. It is not belief, I know from my work. It is the disorder part that is the problem, though it may well be an adaptation to life that becomes out dated and troublesome. =20 Robert, I was not including you in any of those categories, at all! I had left my reference to what you had said about yourself well behind. =20 I also am not thinking now, as I sometimes do, that therefor you projected all this. The whole topic of names and identity *in general* has drifted into discussion of your name and identity, as it should really in an experiential group. [In the case of discussion re facilitation it drifts into discussion about my facilitation, that is the whole idea, and I try, though not always successfully, not to take it too personally, and to think of this as experiential research, of benefit to us all.] =20 > Am I an experiment in on-line therapy, and is this a diagnosis > based on our trusty DSM-IV? Perhaps I am reading too much in the > proximity of one comment with the other. =20 Yes, but I understand how that happened. I hate the DSM, and refuse to use it if I can, and don't need to in my work. Did you really think I would? =20 > After all, you weren't > addressing me and I may not be in the right to respond to the = references > to this shadow, this list archetype. You have been expressing dis-ease > in reference to me. How can we best resolve that dis-ease (I say "we" > because this is a relational problem)? Can it be done here where the > temenos of the list is hurting? Perhaps it is resolved now? I hope so. =20 > Why is the temenos hurting? What sense of safety is there? Do > you truly see me as the author of that lack of safety? Imagine that = you > are a newbie and you were to "lurk" and thus hear the dialogues of = late. > Would you be willing to speak "authentically" about "issues"? I think the temenos is hurting. I am not if I used those words before or if you also think that it is hurt. I think the author of it is me! (is that vain?) It is really, the list description and the associated PsyberGroups and the emerging community, have a *fragmented identity* as Jim named it. =20 I am thinking of chaos theory and the notion of repeating patterns, were there is a self-similarity. The fragmentation occurs in the whole Psybernet project. I am fragmented -- torn between my normal job as a psychotherapist and all of this work! Each of the separate lists has been fragmented: AION, DreamEvent and PWP. =20 Thus: How to proceed. We work to defragment to integrate, to develop trust. OR we learn to accept the nature of the place, and define its limited scope, and this enter into the fragmentation with less expectation,, and hence less broken trust or sense of betrayal. [As in the rather unfortunate example of the 0900 worker, there is no betrayal, we know the scope of the relationship.] As we work at this, I think the focus goes from looking at the "whole" to working with us as individuals. In that sense, group therapy perhaps, but I expect that the same thing operate in any group. That self-similarity operates in the material world as well, after all. So are you the author of the hurting temenos? Can you see what I am saying. I think the emerging life here, the struggles Psybernet makes to be born, to find its life can be mirrored in us as individuals, can mirror our own emergence. If Psybernet is in crisis, then list members in crisis will be doubly affected, positively or negatively.=20 Would I be willing to speak authentically about issues? I have a sense of being authentic here. I don't pour my heart out here, as if it were a private journal, or as if it were a group *solely* for the purpose of therapy. I would be willing to be asked *any* question, no matter how personal -- but like you said recently, I am capable of saying that I don't want to answer it. And, like you said, there is so much that can pour out into this list, that I may even miss the question or see it as rhetorical. =20 That said, I think it is still worth clarifying the *boundaries* -- both the scope of the list -- for everyone -- how might that read in a revised list description. And I would like to know if, say Charles's questions & comments are beyond your personal or the lists tolerance? Perhaps it is not absolute either. I am thinking that perhaps there is more that we can do here before we know, before you know. =20 =46or example, is this dialogue in itself changing the temenos? =20 I hope so. I see myself, and you, as working to build it, between us and for the list. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:30:28 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert, Walter, Marie, Anita, all: For my own sake, Robert, I feel pretty much at ease with what has transpired, as I have said before. But for my *interest*, and perhaps for your sake or that of others on the list, I still get the feeling that it might help if you could answer the questions I raised to you a while back -- I think you were pretty busy at the time, and unable to answer -- and which Anita quoted recently. I think they might clarify something here which could use clarity. You asked Anita, in the wake of her recent post: > What caused you to think that I took no responsibility for what > transpired? and I still suspect the answer may lie not in a refusal of responsibility on your part but in a mode of accepting it which can *appear* like a refusal, particularly to those who do not share the mode themselves. I still think it possible that your mode of therapeutic and philosophic understanding -- or specifically that part of it which goes under the name "existential", I would guess -- sets up constraints on the *ways* in which you acknowledge responsability when you feel that such is the appropriate response to a situation, which (the constraints) in turn make it *sound* to those who are unaware of the constraints as though you are (at least in part) sidestepping it. Now in saying all this to you again -- and I'd refer you back to my earlier post and Anita's quoted version for access to the longer version -- I *hope* in my own turn that I am not asking you to introspect much at all. In another post to Anita, after the post in which she quoted my questions at length, you asked: > And, would you be willing to be so self-introspective in this > environment? This seems to tell me that you feel my questions *would* require an introspective -- rather than a more nearly factual -- response. At this point, I'd simply like to clarify the fact that it was a factual question I thought I was raising, at least in the first part of my post: does your approach to therapeutics / philosophy imply or mandate particular caution in accepting "appropriate" and avoiding "inappropriate" levels of responsability? In other words, many people will say, "It's all my fault, I'm so sorry" when they know they have contributed their share to a situation but do not bear all the blame, but some people -- and I suspect you may be one of them -- would have perfectly good reason for saying something more along the lines of, "I'm sorry for my part in all this, but I can't apologize for the part that I don't see myself as contributing". And the good reason would be that it doesn't *enable* anyone who might want to shift all the blame (off themselves) onto their interlocutor. From eg a Twelve Step perspective this might be an important distinction: but from the point of view of someone not used to such a perspective it might *come across* as inconsiderate. If -- and only if -- you can answer this kind of question factually and simply, "yes, the way in which I view transpersonal relations mandates that I be cautious in that respect, for roughly those reasons", then I think we can go on to my second question, which is along the lines of "should you make your apology a little clearer, then, for the sake of those who are not used to this particular mode of expression?"... That would, to my mind, answer to Walter's question today... I would like to know if, say Charles's questions & comments are beyond your personal or the lists tolerance? Perhaps it is not absolute either. I am thinking that perhaps there is more that we can do here before we know, before you know. while confirming what I find already implicit in your own remark: > What caused you to think that I took no responsibility for what > transpired? ie that you *do* take responsibility, albeit within the limits you find appropriate... and then there remains only the possibility -- and to my mind, this is where the introspection comes in -- that you further address my question whether maybe you are prone to encourage projections on the "up" side which you then deal with in a more abrupt manner on the "down" side -- doing a kind of nimble two-step "between" different aspects of your personality / philosophy. Which, let me say at once, I probably do myself -- but which also strikes me as capable of causing problems... Hoping that you will feel free to respond to as many parts of this as you feel free to ... Best, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:32:26 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: Why I am here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert, At 15:20 1997-05-10 -0700, you wrote: > Anita, the posts are all available on the web at: >http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html > >If you re-read them, you will find nothing about the last comment you attribute >to me. Marie, the "other" in this relationship, was/is a member of PSYBER-L. >She lives in a different country from me an many miles/kilometres away. The >dialogue that we shared with PSYBER-L was risked because we believed that this >place was a safe place. Marie's continued silence testifies to the error in >that kind of thinking. Is her silence due to me or to the issue of safety in >speaking out here? She was not Marie, but somebody else on the other list. You wrote: * She sent me photos, books, a video on sacred sex. What I needed was not found in all this. I needed to learn that I was more than a body and an erotic voice for another's need. I needed to be seen and heard and met.* I re-red the archives and remarked, that I have a bad memory. I remembered my own imaginary vision: how this lady after sending you for a while photos and videos, will some day appear to your door and say: "Here I am standing, and can't do anything else." I' m sorry, that I didn't examine the archives before writing. You asked: > What caused you to think that I took no responsibility for what >transpired? As for being "innocent", why is that so strange? Does this not >suit a "man"? Or, are only damsels in distress "innocent"? The cause was your sentences: *Like a naive fly, I entered the spider-woman's web and began a cyber-affair... Love? No. Filling in the empty spaces that haunted me from a lifetime of bruised emotion would be a better description. For three months the email flew hot and heavy. We spoke often, but we never ventured much past raw needs, a version of sacred sex. Never did we speak of those small things and those large things that form the foundation of relation. Which philosophies, which poets, which small worries, and which small hopes that spoke to our understanding of reality never found a voice. Almost as quickly as it came, it left. I felt bruised and empty from the experience. In a way, I felt raped. I felt the adulterer with all the attendant guilt. Yet, it forced me to face the reality of my reaching out to another, even if only through this electronic medium. I had to look to myself and my real-time life forthe roots of my need that allowed me to become involved in a cyber-affair.* After three month you put an end to the affair: *I left her on-line, and I left the discussion group. I retreated. My only involvement with Internet was with a French cafe for small talk. Then, after a period of healing, I again risked genuine dialogue. I had discovered PSYBER-L.* But, alas, the same occurred again! You left abruptly the Dream Event. Didn't you learn anything about your first? Cyber-affair? I think that you are like Catherine in the Truffaut's film "Jules and Jim". She tried to fill empty places of her soul, and caused much havoc. She couldn't see her own share. But you are also like innocent Jules or Jim, who rises to the bait, when you are searching for your "soul-mate" i.e. Filling the soul's emptiness. Believe me, no other person ( than you yourself) cannot fill it! >And, would you be willing to be so self-introspective in this >environment? I should like to be as self-introspective here as I am in my novels, but you know, I have limitations on the language. "The soul can break loose only in its own language", and it to me Finnish. I have no public and private ego apart. I' m just the same person in publicity as in the private life. I am transparent. I cannot understand the post-modern fragmentation of the personality. To my mind the Self gives expressions in our all deeds and words, in every moment. Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:55:15 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: Why I am here In-Reply-To: <199705111532.SAA12888@walrus.megabaud.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anita, all: Anita describes her "imaginary vision" of the lady which whom Robert had his "earlier" cyber-affair turning up on his doorstep: > this lady ... will some day appear to your door and say: "Here I > am standing, and can't do anything else." Since not everyone may recognize the reference, it's worth noting that "Here I am standing, and can't do anything else" is the celebrated remark ("hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders") made by Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms. Anita? Any comments? -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:37:34 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Why I am here MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Psyberians, particularly those with lingering unresolved issues from the Dream Event: I would personally like to say that as someone who has posted to PSYBER-L for the past 8 or so months, who has occasionally posted insightfully, occasionally posted tritely, and who may or may not be a player or have a room here, I am PERSONALLY finding this continuing shit about Robert annoying and disrespectful of him as a person and a soul. I believe that it has nothing to do with the fact that I like Robert. I believe I would feel this way whether it was Walter, HooN, Charles, Jim, Fritz (now there is thought that elicits a smile), Wilbur, or any other man OR woman who posts or subscribes to PSYBER-L. How about this... let's just have a trial. Walter, I think you should arrest Robert. In my mind the charge should be that he is human. All of those with unresolved feelings from the Dream Event bring your charges against him. I'm not sure who should be judge, any nominations? Someone unbiased, possibly a lurker? Then the trial, with PSYBER-L as jury. I do NOT mean to trivialize anyone's feelings about all this, but I would ask everyone to identify with, rather than project on, Robert, and decide just how long he must remain on his hot seat, how he could possibly respond? Does anyone else feel as I do? Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:01:00 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kataryn Subject: Re: Why I am here Sheryl wrote most precisely~~~~ ......snip.. I am PERSONALLY finding this continuing shit about Robert >annoying and disrespectful of him as a person and a soul. > >I believe that it has nothing to do with the fact that I like Robert. I >believe I would feel this way whether it was Walter, HooN, Charles, Jim, >Fritz (now there is thought that elicits a smile), Wilbur, or any other man >OR woman who posts or subscribes to PSYBER-L. > >How about this... let's just have a trial. Walter, I think you should >arrest Robert. In my mind the charge should be that he is human. All of >those with unresolved feelings from the Dream Event bring your charges >against him. I'm not sure who should be judge, any nominations? Someone >unbiased, possibly a lurker? Then the trial, with PSYBER-L as jury. > >I do NOT mean to trivialize anyone's feelings about all this, but I would >ask everyone to identify with, rather than project on, Robert, and decide >just how long he must remain on his hot seat, how he could possibly >respond? > >Does anyone else feel as I do? > >Sheryl ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sheryl BRAVO ~~~~ ..quoting Sheryl...."I am not sure who would be the judge"...... .. unbiased and do have experience in court room procedure ... ~~~~~~Laughing ~~~~~~ Kataryn _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:52:01 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kaisa Subject: Re: Why I am here MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sheryl wrote: ......snip.. I am PERSONALLY finding this continuing shit about Robert >annoying and disrespectful of him as a person and a soul. ...snip... >Does anyone else feel as I do? I do... Kaisa _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:16:16 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: Why I am here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:55 1997-05-11 -0700, Charles wrote: >Since not everyone may recognize the reference, it's worth noting that >"Here I am standing, and can't do anything else" is the celebrated remark >("hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders") made by Martin Luther at the Diet >of Worms. > >Anita? Any comments? > Yes, it was a reference to Martin Luther. And my joking, too. Sorry, if my foolish humour has hurt somebody. Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:39:38 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Why I am here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl: I'm, at times, still trying to figure out "Why I am Here"? I was wondering how far some of the dream event material was going to go, especially as far as Robert was concerned, but since I joined at the time of PWP I thought I'd just keep quiet. Janell Sheryl Wrote: At 11:37 AM 5/11/97 -0600, you wrote: >Psyberians, particularly those with lingering unresolved issues from the >Dream Event: > (Snip) I am PERSONALLY finding this continuing shit about Robert >annoying and disrespectful of him as a person and a soul. > >I believe that it has nothing to do with the fact that I like Robert. I >believe I would feel this way whether it was Walter, HooN, Charles, Jim, >Fritz (now there is thought that elicits a smile), Wilbur, or any other man >OR woman who posts or subscribes to PSYBER-L. > >Does anyone else feel as I do? > >Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:21:40 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Charles from Robert MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles, I will take the time to answer your questions to the best of my ability in the next few days. I will remain silent for at least another 36 hours as I have many off-line commitments to attend to until then. Thank you for your words and for your focus. Robert de Cyberie PS I also want to thank those who have responded to Sheryl's brave post. Sheryl, you are indeed a friend :))) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:27:00 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Why I am here In-Reply-To: <199705111645.KAA03162@henge1.henge.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sheryl > Psyberians, particularly those with lingering unresolved issues from = the > Dream Event: The dynamics are current & not related to Robert exclusively. The past comes up, sure, Psybernet has a four year history. =20 There are some great "lingering and unresolved" themes in out list, they are its reason for being: Hollow talk vs authentic talk. =20 Gender. Identity (hats!) Facilitation. Boundaries between psyber-l and other groups. Psychotherapy and the net. Metaphors for the list Projection Relationships on the net. Ontology: what is real? The nature of list process, the hub phenomena,=20 the central players phenomena. Temenos i.e. the safety, the power, the force=20 of the forum here. =20 Fragmentation and integration Trust. Commitment to the list vs rl. The list is not complete, please add or modify . . .=20 How could we cover these topics experientially, in depth, without looking at our past? How could one of us not be in the hot seat from time to time? And, looking at that list of topics, is it any wonder that Robert features? How did that happen? Why do we focus like we do on a person? Is that bad as you think? It could be. Perhaps the list is in a sick mode, and ganging up, like a pack. I don't think so. I may be wrong. =20 Robert asks some powerful questions, reflecting on them draws us deeply into the soul work, our own the lists and Robert for example: | The dialogue that we shared with PSYBER-L was risked because we = believed that this=20 | place was a safe place. Marie's continued silence testifies to the = error in=20 | that kind of thinking. Is her silence due to me or to the issue of = safety in=20 | speaking out here? Almost every theme we have been discussing is present in that passage. We will have many points of view. Many projections, the answers will not just come out in black and white. We can generalise, but it will come back to the particular. Perhaps it would be useful to discuss the themes with deliberate attention to specifics that may have gone unnoticed, other than anything related to Robert. =20 > I do NOT mean to trivialize anyone's feelings about all this, but I = would > ask everyone to identify with, rather than project on, Robert, and = decide > just how long he must remain on his hot seat, how he could possibly > respond? > Does anyone else feel as I do? I like your invitation, to identify with Robert, and not project is a good thing. To be able to step into his shoes and see all this through his eyes is something I hope we can do. I hope we can do that for each other, be well heard here. How hot is the hot seat? In my attempt at identification it is quite hot, at the same time, I (as Robert) would abhor to have my presence avoided, for the sake of peace rather than truth. How can I get out of that seat? Silence? No. Leave? I seem to be destined to stay. =20 How can we take Robert out of the hot seat? I dont know whether Anita intended it but the reference to Luther fits in some way . . . historical forces, mixed with a paricular personality, erupt in a destiny we cant avoid. One can only stand there and say God help me!=20 Sheryl, here we are talking, as I try to avoid, talking about someone . . .=20 Perhaps you and I in discussing this, are putting ourselves in the hot seat. (I will be for fostering the hub once more!) This discussion is probably more about us than Robert. In fact it is about a phenomena in this list as much as about individuals, but as always the phenomena are linked to people. The generalities to individuals . . .=20 I appreciate your concern, and I hope our difference of perspective (perhaps more that than feeling?) is worth pursuing. Thats why I am here, all of this seems worth pursuing, very worthwhile . . .=20 Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:09:52 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kaisa Subject: Re: Gender'ing around MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I really have to admit being puzzled as to all the fuss over AOL and trying to protect yourself there. I've had my aol account for over three years now. I have not been harrassed by unwanted email or Instant Messages. On the other hand, I don't have a profile for the screenname I use most of the time online. I have a profile for one of my screennames and have received some junk mail, as well as some email I've really appreciated. One of my long time online friends did a search of the member profiles and because he thought I sounded like a person he might want to get to know, he sent me very courteous message, which apologized if it was unwanted. He became my good friend! On the other hand, I have also gone *slumming* in the chatrooms, but always with a screenname I could discard. And if you go in those chatrooms as a female, yes, you will receive IMs you'd probably rather not! On the other hand, I have managed to find friends EVEN in aol chatrooms! When I feel I can trust the person enough, I have let them know my real name and email address. The only permanent address I have had in the last three years IS my AOL address!! So frankly, I don't understand what the fuss is about AOL. If you don't want the trash, don't go in the chat areas and don't have a profile! I don't see any need to assume a male screenname while using AOL. Now, on the other hand, chatting on IRCs can be more scary! My *pris.bc.ca* internet provider address often appears in a profile which I cannot hide. A search on the Net easily locates me in a small community in northern British Columbia. I do NOT feel anonymous in the same way I can on AOL! I have also met some hackers who have scared me by their ability to find out information about me - like my phone number and address. One hacker told me NEVER to include my full name on my email, as so often happens in mailing lists. Consequently, I only use a part of my first name. I guess, difficulties can arise when you have a distinctive foreign name; in fact, my full name is uncommon enough even in Finland. I don't like giving it out. I know searches with Netscape used to reveal my full name and then it was easy enough to get other information. So, in some ways I am more cautious now and do try harder to maintain some of my privacy online. Just some thoughts from another AOL user... Kaisa _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:44:54 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Projections, Alters, Genders, Facilitations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, I wanted to let you know how much I appreciated your thoughts when you said last week: > I'm mulling over Sheryl and Holly's last posts under [Gender'ing around] > and realizing that I missed (ignored) the safety aspect of taking on an > alter. As my wife has occasionally pointed out to me, since I'm a 6'3" > white male living in one of the safest countries in the world, I tend to > ignore concerns of physical threat. In real life, when I want to walk > alone at midnight I can, and the only threat I worry about is "of rain". > My wife of course, has no such freedom and would walk at night only with > the companionship of a large dog, a friend and constant vigilance. > > I have been on AOL in the past when I took the bait (sign up now! 50 > free hours!) It was actually my first on line experience (other than > the company email system) and I found AOL confusing and disconcerting. > First off, the signup procedure influences you to take an online ID that > is different from your name (I became SwamiJC). Secondly, you then have > the option of creating 4 or 5 more ID's, each of which can have its own > profile. Then I started wandering around, essentially bumping into > things - I was not myself and neither it seemed, was anyone else. I > quickly ran from the chat and discussion areas and used the free hours > to download software and surf the web. > > It strikes me now that AOL is an almost ideal environment for > 'cyberstalkers', it is a place that encourages its members to fragment > their identities. AOL is also a uniquely American environment. I say > American based on the observation that America is a country built on the > core value of Individual Freedom and that has gone to extraordinary > lengths to guarantee and protect individual rights and freedoms. This > has been done in a lop sided way that failed to recognize the 2 key (and > paradoxical) elements of freedom, namely 'freedom to' and 'freedom > from'. To take an example, in the States almost all citizens have the > freedom to purchase deadly weapons. This is in support of their freedom > to defend themselves. The result, that today there are more handguns > than citizens, guarantees large numbers of guns are in the hands of > irresponsible and/or antisocial owners. This subset of gun owners then > takes away the rest of the citizens' freedom from being shot at. In > other words, the 'freedom to own weapons', has reduced 'freedom from > harm' and curtailed the 'freedom to walk at night'. Similarly, AOL in > codifying the freedom to adopt alter id's, reduces 'freedom from > harassment' and this way limits the freedom to be one's self. Of > course, AOL is not alone in this, its true of the internet in general - > its just that AOL makes it so easy to adopt an alter that the behaviour > is more apparent. > > So where has this long (too long?) discussion taken me? Perhaps back to > a previous question, > >Doesn't deception always do violence to the integrity (and self esteem) > >of the deceiver? > Cyberspace while different from "real life" is also in a sense, just an > extension of real life. Netizens are people extending themselves into a > new environment and we necessarily carry our baggage with us. When we > adopt an "alter id", we do violence to our own identity and unleash our > Id. Indulging this freedom then creates an environment where it is a > risk to be one's self. The price of netizenship becomes the destruction > of one's identity (by adopting an alter id for safety's sake). Even > more sadly, the "feminine" qualities identified by Sheryl become the > first sacrifice and the "male" qualities, thus isolated, become > unbalanced. > > So I'm back to gender, and I'm wondering "what are the freedoms from, > that would allow the freedom to celebrate gender in safety?" > > ...Jim I think your response above reflects my feelings about all this so well and also is directed toward many of the situations that Kaisa addresses today. I understand both sides of this issue, and it does go to trust/distrust, feelings of safety, physical, psychological, and spiritual IMO. Kaisa, I understand what you are saying. Part of my own experience with AOL may have had to do with deciding to be who I am. While I never used my whole name, I always had a profile, used the same screen name, or if I changed it, let those I had relationships know about the change. So I do realize that part of my experience had to do with trying to be up front about who I am. If I had not had a profile, I suspect my experiences would have been different. For me, the most difficult part of AOL was the ability for another to monitor me, engendering a vague sense of paranoia. While I could block my name from the buddy list, anyone could run a locate on me and find me if he/she wished. I've had a sense of battle over it all, learning via AOL sometimes depth between people, but far more frequently feeling a superficiality and shallowness to it all. I too found some wonderful relationships there. But those were far fewer than the ones that I felt suspicious of. Heck, the words *I love you* were sent to me at least 6 different times in an 18 month period, by different men. Who wouldn't be suspicious? I gave up on AOL recently and cancelled my account. Kaisa, it sounds as if you have figured out the boundaries that work for you, and it may be that sharing that sort of info could help people. In my mind, the dynamics of AOL seem to increase the distance between the wolves and the lambs. Jim, thank you for your thoughts about the gender differences. I think having the kind of insights that you expressed in this post about gender differences encourages understanding and coming together. Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:21:42 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Why I am here MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, > > Psyberians, particularly those with lingering unresolved issues from the > > Dream Event: > > The dynamics are current & not related to Robert exclusively. > The past comes up, sure, Psybernet has a four year history. I agree. The dynamics, IMO, are not related to Robert exclusively, and I think the dynamics have been current throughout human history, not just Psybernet. > There are some great "lingering and unresolved" themes in out > list, they are its reason for being: > > Hollow talk vs authentic talk. > > Gender. > > Identity (hats!) > > Facilitation. > > Boundaries between psyber-l and other groups. > > Psychotherapy and the net. > > Metaphors for the list > > Projection > > Relationships on the net. > > Ontology: what is real? > > The nature of list process, the hub phenomena, > the central players phenomena. > > Temenos i.e. the safety, the power, the force > of the forum here. > > Fragmentation and integration > > Trust. > > Commitment to the list vs rl. > > > The list is not complete, please add or modify . . . I'll think more on this, but I believe you have identified some major ones. I think the ones I would add might have more to do with techniques, and I do find a lot of similarity in the Robert situation to some of what I remember in The Game, the primary therapeutic tool of the drug treatment program I worked in so many years ago. In the Game, the hounds *chased* the fox. The fox had various tools, as did the hounds. The hounds could indict, project, identify, and a bunch of others that I forget at the moment. The fox could defend, nut up (that one I really remember, essentially it meant going catatonic), and also a bunch of others I don't remember. Darn, I wish I could, I had to memorize the thing back then! > How could we cover these topics experientially, in depth, without > looking at our past? How could one of us not be in the hot seat > from time to time? And, looking at that list of topics, is it > any wonder that Robert features? How did that happen? Why do we > focus like we do on a person? Is that bad as you think? It > could be. Perhaps the list is in a sick mode, and ganging up, > like a pack. I don't think so. I may be wrong. Well, let's also look at how long Robert has been on the hot seat. Months. It's getting difficult to know who the real now Robert is through Psyber-L. If he tries to speak authentically, someone pops up and yells *you BAD man!* at him. And I guess the thing that is most annoying to me is that this dwelling on Robert as the shadow denies the shadow to all the rest of us. How many of us, male or female, committed to one hasn't lusted after another? And if that is true, how many could keep going for months on the hot seat as Robert has? > Robert asks some powerful questions, reflecting on them draws us > deeply into the soul work, our own the lists and Robert for > example: > > | The dialogue that we shared with PSYBER-L was risked because we believed that this > | place was a safe place. Marie's continued silence testifies to the error in > | that kind of thinking. Is her silence due to me or to the issue of safety in > | speaking out here? > > Almost every theme we have been discussing is present in that > passage. We will have many points of view. Many projections, the > answers will not just come out in black and white. We can > generalise, but it will come back to the particular. Perhaps it > would be useful to discuss the themes with deliberate attention > to specifics that may have gone unnoticed, other than anything > related to Robert. The passage of Robert's was a good one, and it does bring us to our own soul work, which we can each individually calmly and privately, in front of our individual computers, take in and learn or not. And no one needs to know what we're learning, privately. In the meantime, it is still Robert on the hot seat, isn't it? > > I do NOT mean to trivialize anyone's feelings about all this, but I would > > ask everyone to identify with, rather than project on, Robert, and decide > > just how long he must remain on his hot seat, how he could possibly > > respond? > > > Does anyone else feel as I do? > > I like your invitation, to identify with Robert, and not project > is a good thing. To be able to step into his shoes and see all > this through his eyes is something I hope we can do. I hope we > can do that for each other, be well heard here. How hot is the > hot seat? In my attempt at identification it is quite hot, at > the same time, I (as Robert) would abhor to have my presence > avoided, for the sake of peace rather than truth. How can I get > out of that seat? Silence? No. Leave? I seem to be destined to > stay. I would like to extend the invitation to those who seem to keep Robert on the hot seat to identify and share the introspective aspects that everyone seems to be asking Robert to do, ask themselves if they would be willing to openly communicate these shadow elements that are being asked of him to share with the world? > How can we take Robert out of the hot seat? Yes, that is my question. > I dont know whether Anita intended it but the reference to Luther > fits in some way . . . historical forces, mixed with a paricular > personality, erupt in a destiny we cant avoid. One can only > stand there and say God help me! Anita's post pushed me over the edge here, I confess. I thought it unkind to say the least. I wondered if anyone had stood at her door, ever, in her life. > Sheryl, here we are talking, as I try to avoid, talking about > someone . . . > > Perhaps you and I in discussing this, are putting ourselves in > the hot seat. (I will be for fostering the hub once more!) This > discussion is probably more about us than Robert. In fact it is > about a phenomena in this list as much as about individuals, but > as always the phenomena are linked to people. The generalities > to individuals . . . Yep, we are Walter. And there is no doubt in my mind that I may have put myself on the hot seat in defense of the man who may LEAST want it, Robert himself. (Thank you, though, Robert for your comment about friendship.) > I appreciate your concern, and I hope our difference of > perspective (perhaps more that than feeling?) is worth pursuing. > Thats why I am here, all of this seems worth pursuing, very > worthwhile . . . I think so too, Walter. Kataryn, Kaisa, Janelle, thanks for your responses... Kataryn, do you think I might have any future in the legal profession? :))) Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:08:46 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Sheryl.. Tamed..neigh..broken Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well I am back, I got back this morning, least I think it was this morning, I am not sure what day of the week it is yet, or what time. I think its called Jet lag, whatever it is its my minds in America and my body is in the uk. I had high adventures, and came back with the realistation that maybe they were to last me a lifetime. Thanks to an obliging doctor, I was sufficiantly doped enough to pass the plane journey not worrying about the possible concious time of impact between land and sea or why all the buildings in Miami had big red lights on them when we came into land. What follows is possibly more for me than for the list, maybe it doesnt belong here, maybe it does. I am not forcing anybody to read it. A friend of mine who is a writer, said to me that when we write we leave a little of ourselves on the page, that it is in someway a little death of part of us. I always knew what he meant, and so sometimes, I confess I bang out words here, and they are not always for the group, but for me, and that in hitting return I send them somewhere, not always with you in mind,, but somewhere where the act of hitting return has given them some purpose. A bit like an elephants graveyard, where all my elephantine thoughts go to gather and die. This is therefore one of those occasions, my version of online therapy. There is an island on Biscayne bay, that I saw most every day from my balcony, it was swept bare by the hurricane a few years earlier, its struggling to survive, and the greenery is returning slowly, its a pitful thing, nothing to admire it for but its tenacity in wanting to be as verdunt (possibly right word, probably wrong spelling) as its neighbours. It sits isolated and motionless in a sea of activity, but it is completely still and desolate for there is nothing for the wind to stir anymore, nothing for the breeze to catch hold of, it is bare sand and the odd sun baked, rain starved shrub. As I looked at that island, daily I became more drawn to it, for I saw between it and I the parrallels of our existance. Like the island a storm had blown through me, leaving me bewildred and stripped, and with nothing to look forward to but the day to day buisness of an existance I cling to though I am never sure why. Somewhere there is for me and the island a purpose to our being, yet one I cannot fathom, only being, surviving, not giving up, day at a time, day in day out. I fell in love on line, I allowed myself the self indulgence, but before where I knew the love to be fantasy, something to be enjoyed, something to learn from, a mock love of no real substance, but this time I made the dream come true. I met the man in Febuary, and I fell in love in reality, something I never meant to do. I believe that as a child the only thing I could believe that loved me was myself, for the little me that so yearned for love found it no where else but in loving herself, and that creates a paradox for in loving myself neither could I believe I was worthy or deserving of love of another. Only I could love me. I have always then regarded anybody that professed to love me as a fool. I also as a child learnt the futility of love, of the giving of it when none is seemingly offered in return. I dont think I am capable of love, unless it is entirely selfish. My husband played a dangerous game, though at the time I was not aware he was playing it, he left me, because he was certain that I would still always be there, that I had a lesson to be learned and he wanted me to learn it. My dependance on him did not wane all the time we were seperated, either financial or emotional, he delighted in denying me the words I love you, and pushing and pulling me away from him by degrees. He is not a cruel man, his one great folly is to love me while pretending he didn't, so I distanced myself from my love for him to such an extent that it became watered down and a thin liquid version of what I once felt. Once again I realised the futility of love where it was not seemingly returned. When I returned from my adventure, which was also an adventure in love, the house was clean, there were flowers in all the rooms, and welcome home balloons in the kitchen. My daughter was in a new dress, bright yellow amongst all the drab colours of the airport, and squealing with happiness as she saw me, desperate to search and hunt amongst all my baggage for whatever it was I might have brought her, such cupboard love is admirable in a child for its frank honesty. And all I could think was that I had not missed either of them, but that I loved them both as much as I was able. And I do not seem to be able to love anything unless it is there, in front of me and reachable. For that I have suffered the last few days in thinking, what sort of mother can leave her child and not miss her, yet when seeing her, her heart can burst with joy, and the sort of intense love that you can have for something that is part of you totally. So I love two men, one I love because he too is part of me, because I have 11 years invested in him and he and I have a daughter, and I feel I owe him, for the house around me, for the money he earnt I spent, for the balloons in the kitchen and the pate in the fridge, for the fact that though he left me, he never did really, that he still paid the bills, that he partially paid for my ticket to adventure and considered the saying, that if you love somebody set them free, that if they were truly yours they will come back to you, and if they dont then they were never really yours to begin with. I have memories of times when I was happy and because through everything he still loved me, enough to forgive me for sleeping with another man and vengefully telling him how much I enjoyed it. And I love another man, in a country that is as alien to me as it is geographically distant, who is all future and no past, who comes with no promises, no guarrantees, who is as wild and as exciting as the adventure I craved. In many ways, they both are very similar people, with marked differences however, and each begs me to choose. I cannot choose, for I cannot seem to chose between what is familiar and what is risk and unsure, and I love them both though in entirely different ways. And the risk I run, is that I will lose them both, and have nothing, nobody, when I could have had so much. I dont know wether I want to live in Oz, or stay at home in my own back Yard. I thought I wanted Oz, and I did while it was a fantasy, because fantasy is so often safe, and like Dorothy and her companions there are things you need you can only find in Oz. Then Oz became a reality, and another start to another yellow brick road, one where you cannot see the eventual destination, nor how long it will take you to get there, but I cannot step forward, because one foot is still on that other path where you want to put on ruby slippers and click your heels together three times while chanting Theres no place like Home and know that you can go there. So my adventure, I crossed four states, I ate more junk food than was good for me, I sat in New Orleans with a man I loved, and ate beignets and chickory coffee at the cafe du monde, listening to the dancing children, with taps on their nikes, relentlessly thundering rhythms to appreciative tourists and a jazz musician held a note so long on his sax that after a while the cafe was silence and we all waited till the note dropped finally and the cafe exploded because we had all shared a moment of magic we would never forget. I saw mile after mile of interstate, small towns, where a waitresses with brassy hair, who could only have been called rusty and who was, served me grits for breakfast, and bacon which tasted how I always imagined bacon should taste. I stopped by rivers and we stared at the fish, the live ones and the dead ones that littered the bank, and I loved him for the fact we could share the moments in silence, because the thoughts and feelings were seemingly as one. It was one of those rare moments in life, when your so content that you never want to move from that place, you want to catch it and preserve it like some insect in amber for the rest of eternity. If we are lucky, we form necklaces of those moments and wear them with us for our lives, each is an exquisitely precious moment, one you can never forget, because your taken back to the emotions, not just the memories, like the time I held Tara guzzling contentedly like a small hog at my breast and she looked at me with huge liquid eyes, and something passed between us that I could never after that find words for. Was it magic or was it illusion. Was it there or just what I wanted to see. I spent a restless night in the back of a pick up truck, on a pile of dirty laundry in a truck rest stop, surrounded by menacing gleaming steel monsters and looked up at the stars to the song of the air brakes and the whir of their air conditioning, and I cried, because there are no soloutions for me, only choices, and I am not good with the consequence of choice. I do not know wether to preseve those moments, this adventure as part of the beads of my lifes necklace and not hope for any more, that that is my lot, that is the end of those thread of beads or if I should continue to collect them or at least try to and look back at the other beads that were my life with my ex who was never really an ex, and say that is the end of that part of the thread and those moments are beautiful and forever mine. I hurt so much, my heart lies in a dozen different places, the seperation is a grief that is almost unbearable, loyalty and desire and love and responsibility are all mixed up and shaken together in some unenviable cocktail of decision and indecision. I remember a fairy story, where a tin soldier had to tie his heart with iron bands to stop it falling apart and breaking and I feel as much like the soldier as I did the island. In the end I think the soldier fell into the fire or chose to leap, and his heart became a hardened lump of iron, a fusion of tin and band, amongst a grate of ash and that is the fate I seek to avoid because it will be a fate of my own making. This has helped, it always does. It makes possibly no sense to anybody else but me, but then it was never intended to. Those to whom it does make sense, will of course understand it perfectly (hehehehe - which is a laugh in chat rooms) T _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:22:02 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: Why I am here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl, At 11:21 1997-05-12 -0600, you wrote: >Anita's post pushed me over the edge here, I confess. I thought it unkind >to say the least. I wondered if anyone had stood at her door, ever, in her >life. Someone has stood there, and some other has come through windows. So, when I was reading Robert's post about her fervent cyber admirer, I immediately recognized, that Robert is like me as an young women. I was then an innocent Donna Juanita, who didn't see and admit how cruel she is to men, who fell in love with her. After the recognition I followed Robert's posts with great interest. This happened before the Dream Event. Robert is my very dear mirror-image, some traits are irritating, some are charming, some amusing. He still so young. I think that he is very much making his soul in this place. Best regards Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:43:14 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == Psybernet Mailing List Description == MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, I have revised the description, my intention was not to change any of the substance, but only clarify and improve the style. All comment welcome, minor points of style etc. could come to me direct, major points are best to go to the list.=20 Thanks, Walter =3D=3D Psybernet Mailing List =3D=3D Psybernet formed in 1993 to offer professional psychological services on the Internet. The Psyber-L mailing list grew out of the need to learn more and experience first hand the potential of the net, especially in facilitated online lists and groups. The list aims to help us become conscious of the effects of computer mediated communication on group life and the psyche. The list is a starting point for depth psychological work on the net, exploring and defining its directions.=20 The scope of the list is broad, as all discussion contributes to the group life and assists our consciousness of the media. We learn directly from our experience how this medium elicits our depth work. We voice that learning. Thoughtful discussion about the process is welcome as part of the interactions and discussions.=20 To give a sense of the intended direction of the discussions, here is a list of suitable topics for the list, there is a continued focus on how these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace: depth psychology=20 leadership in communication networks=20 creating communication environments gender issues imagination metaphors archetypes dreams myths personal identity psychotherapy the unconscious group dynamics. The list is an experiment for its participants in learning about the scope of Internet mailing lists for ethical psychological depth work. Forming relationships of a collegial nature around our psychological net interests is an important part of the work. This has developed to the point where there is a sense of community building in the list. The value, direction and purpose of the emerging connections are topics for discussion.=20 The parameters of the list are set by the list owner; Psyber-L is open to all, the list is unmoderated, i.e. all messages are instantly posted, the archives are public. The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman, using a participatory style. Discussion of how the list is facilitated is integral to its purpose. =20 ~~~ Psybernet offers facilitated email groups from time to time. Details of some of these can be found on the Psybernet Web site.=20 ~~~ The Psybernet web pages can be found at: http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html=20 ~~~ Subscription can be made from the Web at: http://www.netspace.org/cgi-bin/lwgate/Psyber-L/ Other commands can be easily executed from there. =20 Archives can be viewed and searched by email, though access via the Web may be easier. ~~~ Web Archives. The archives can be viewed at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html There is an excellent search facility here so the=20 archives or sub sections of it, can be explored=20 using any word.=20 ~~~ To subscribe and access archives using email only: Psyber-L is archived and these are available to with an=20 INDEX PSYBER-L command to the listserv. To subscribe to PSYBER-L, send the a command to: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM=20 in the BODY of e-mail: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname =46or example: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive=20 confirmation request, then an acknowledgement,=20 followed by a welcome message. To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to:=20 LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM =20 In the body of the email write: =20 SIGNOFF PSYBER-L ~~~ Owner: Walter Logeman =20 walter@earthling.net Last updated Wednesday, 14 May 1997 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:07:26 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: email address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, I am in the process of changing ISP. This wont affect the list in any way, as it is run by l-soft, quite independently of my isp. Sadly my current service charges are no longer competitive. I am experimenting with an email address i got from iName. walter@earthling.net seems a useful free service, and means that i can use it to subscribe to lists, or other things and i wont need to go through the process i'm about to embark on ever again, ie unsubbing and resubbing. Are there any pitfalls here? I am also exploring the possibility of a psybernet domain name, though it seems someone has got a claim on it! =20 Thought i'd mention all this in view of the possible fluctuations in address, and how for some they carry a lot of weight. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Why I am here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:27 PM 5/13/97 GMT, you wrote: > >How can we take Robert out of the hot seat? By realizing that he's the victim also.. Marie played the game along with Robert, she knew the risks.. As a matter of fact, I can say that everyone around at the time knew the risks, since Dolores and I were very careful to point them out. Indeed, there was an outpouring of support for his revalation of his involvement with Marie. I thought that the list had gone over the edge, that it was a soap opera more than a place where reasoned debate occured. I made comments about how the sort of dicussion that was going on didn't feel like reasoned debate, I told Tamara about the soap opera. I then posted a couple of different messages, along with Dolores, trying to point out what I already understood about the nature of involvement on the Internet, I got responses from everyone EXCEPT Robert and Marie, several people supporting their involvement. Then it came out that Dolores had been involved with someone else, then Steven went nuts for Dolores, then Lisa's post on the how the Penis is to be worshipped.. Sure sounded like a soap opera to me. I had a way out. I was sharing what was going on with Tamara. She and I both know the truth about this media. She and I have both learned the hard way. One of the things that I'm very concerned with is the interaction of technology and humanity. There is an old saying that the first thing that men will do with a new techology is figure out how to have sex with it. I must suppose that the same goes for women. The sexual urges are quite strong, they are the foundation for much of the development of mankind, after all, we'd all live at home for our entire lives otherwise.. We have played out the natural consequences of who we are and the technology before us. What have we learned? Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:20:34 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Why I am here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Well, let's also look at how long Robert has been on the hot seat. Months. > It's getting difficult to know who the real now Robert is through >Psyber-L. If he tries to speak authentically, someone pops up and yells >*you BAD man!* at him. That's usually what happens in real life also.. >And I guess the thing that is most annoying to me is that this dwelling on >Robert as the shadow denies the shadow to all the rest of us. How many of >us, male or female, committed to one hasn't lusted after another? And if >that is true, how many could keep going for months on the hot seat as >Robert has? I guess that's why people are yelling. Certainly about a year ago when the topic was Robert and Marie and their wonderful relationship I was (metaphorically) yelling also. Lead to a wonderful discussion of rage.. > >The passage of Robert's was a good one, and it does bring us to our own >soul work, which we can each individually calmly and privately, in front of >our individual computers, take in and learn or not. And no one needs to >know what we're learning, privately. In the meantime, it is still Robert >on the hot seat, isn't it? I think that maybe he needs to be on the hot seat right now.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:24:56 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Sheryl.. Tamed..neigh..broken MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dolores... > Well I am back, I got back this morning, least I think it was this morning, > I am not sure what day of the week it is yet, or what time. I think its > called Jet lag, whatever it is its my minds in America and my body is in the uk. > I had high adventures, and came back with the realistation that maybe they > were to last me a lifetime. > Thanks to an obliging doctor, I was sufficiantly doped enough to pass the > plane journey not worrying about the possible concious time of impact > between land and sea or why all the buildings in Miami had big red lights on > them when we came into land. > What follows is possibly more for me than for the list, maybe it doesnt > belong here, maybe it does. I am not forcing anybody to read it. > A friend of mine who is a writer, said to me that when we write we leave a > little of ourselves on the page, that it is in someway a little death of > part of us. I always knew what he meant, and so sometimes, I confess I bang > out words here, and they are not always for the group, but for me, and that > in hitting return I send them somewhere, not always with you in mind,, but > somewhere where the act of hitting return has given them some purpose. A bit > like an elephants graveyard, where all my elephantine thoughts go to gather > and die. > This is therefore one of those occasions, my version of online therapy. > There is an island on Biscayne bay, that I saw most every day from my > balcony, it was swept bare by the hurricane a few years earlier, its > struggling to survive, and the greenery is returning slowly, its a pitful > thing, nothing to admire it for but its tenacity in wanting to be as verdunt > (possibly right word, probably wrong spelling) as its neighbours. It sits > isolated and motionless in a sea of activity, but it is completely still and > desolate for there is nothing for the wind to stir anymore, nothing for the > breeze to catch hold of, it is bare sand and the odd sun baked, rain starved > shrub. As I looked at that island, daily I became more drawn to it, for I > saw between it and I the parrallels of our existance. Like the island a > storm had blown through me, leaving me bewildred and stripped, and with > nothing to look forward to but the day to day buisness of an existance I > cling to though I am never sure why. Somewhere there is for me and the > island a purpose to our being, yet one I cannot fathom, only being, > surviving, not giving up, day at a time, day in day out. > I fell in love on line, I allowed myself the self indulgence, but before > where I knew the love to be fantasy, something to be enjoyed, something to > learn from, a mock love of no real substance, but this time I made the dream > come true. I met the man in Febuary, and I fell in love in reality, > something I never meant to do. I believe that as a child the only thing I > could believe that loved me was myself, for the little me that so yearned > for love found it no where else but in loving herself, and that creates a > paradox for in loving myself neither could I believe I was worthy or > deserving of love of another. Only I could love me. I have always then > regarded anybody that professed to love me as a fool. I also as a child > learnt the futility of love, of the giving of it when none is seemingly > offered in return. I dont think I am capable of love, unless it is entirely > selfish. > My husband played a dangerous game, though at the time I was not aware he > was playing it, he left me, because he was certain that I would still always > be there, that I had a lesson to be learned and he wanted me to learn it. My > dependance on him did not wane all the time we were seperated, either > financial or emotional, he delighted in denying me the words I love you, > and pushing and pulling me away from him by degrees. He is not a cruel man, > his one great folly is to love me while pretending he didn't, so I distanced > myself from my love for him to such an extent that it became watered down > and a thin liquid version of what I once felt. Once again I realised the > futility of love where it was not seemingly returned. > When I returned from my adventure, which was also an adventure in love, the > house was clean, there were flowers in all the rooms, and welcome home > balloons in the kitchen. My daughter was in a new dress, bright yellow > amongst all the drab colours of the airport, and squealing with happiness as > she saw me, desperate to search and hunt amongst all my baggage for whatever > it was I might have brought her, such cupboard love is admirable in a child > for its frank honesty. And all I could think was that I had not missed > either of them, but that I loved them both as much as I was able. And I do > not seem to be able to love anything unless it is there, in front of me and > reachable. For that I have suffered the last few days in thinking, what sort > of mother can leave her child and not miss her, yet when seeing her, her > heart can burst with joy, and the sort of intense love that you can have for > something that is part of you totally. > So I love two men, one I love because he too is part of me, because I have > 11 years invested in him and he and I have a daughter, and I feel I owe him, > for the house around me, for the money he earnt I spent, for the balloons in > the kitchen and the pate in the fridge, for the fact that though he left me, > he never did really, that he still paid the bills, that he partially paid > for my ticket to adventure and considered the saying, that if you love > somebody set them free, that if they were truly yours they will come back to > you, and if they dont then they were never really yours to begin with. I > have memories of times when I was happy and because through everything he > still loved me, enough to forgive me for sleeping with another man and > vengefully telling him how much I enjoyed it. > And I love another man, in a country that is as alien to me as it is > geographically distant, who is all future and no past, who comes with no > promises, no guarrantees, who is as wild and as exciting as the adventure I > craved. In many ways, they both are very similar people, with marked > differences however, and each begs me to choose. I cannot choose, for I > cannot seem to chose between what is familiar and what is risk and unsure, > and I love them both though in entirely different ways. And the risk I run, > is that I will lose them both, and have nothing, nobody, when I could have > had so much. > I dont know wether I want to live in Oz, or stay at home in my own back > Yard. I thought I wanted Oz, and I did while it was a fantasy, because > fantasy is so often safe, and like Dorothy and her companions there are > things you need you can only find in Oz. Then Oz became a reality, and > another start to another yellow brick road, one where you cannot see the > eventual destination, nor how long it will take you to get there, but I > cannot step forward, because one foot is still on that other path where you > want to put on ruby slippers and click your heels together three times while > chanting Theres no place like Home and know that you can go there. > So my adventure, I crossed four states, I ate more junk food than was good > for me, I sat in New Orleans with a man I loved, and ate beignets and > chickory coffee at the cafe du monde, listening to the dancing children, > with taps on their nikes, relentlessly thundering rhythms to appreciative > tourists and a jazz musician held a note so long on his sax that after a > while the cafe was silence and we all waited till the note dropped finally > and the cafe exploded because we had all shared a moment of magic we would > never forget. I saw mile after mile of interstate, small towns, where a > waitresses with brassy hair, who could only have been called rusty and who > was, served me grits for breakfast, and bacon which tasted how I always > imagined bacon should taste. I stopped by rivers and we stared at the fish, > the live ones and the dead ones that littered the bank, and I loved him for > the fact we could share the moments in silence, because the thoughts and > feelings were seemingly as one. > It was one of those rare moments in life, when your so content that you > never want to move from that place, you want to catch it and preserve it > like some insect in amber for the rest of eternity. If we are lucky, we > form necklaces of those moments and wear them with us for our lives, each is > an exquisitely precious moment, one you can never forget, because your taken > back to the emotions, not just the memories, like the time I held Tara > guzzling contentedly like a small hog at my breast and she looked at me with > huge liquid eyes, and something passed between us that I could never after > that find words for. Was it magic or was it illusion. Was it there or just > what I wanted to see. > I spent a restless night in the back of a pick up truck, on a pile of dirty > laundry in a truck rest stop, surrounded by menacing gleaming steel monsters > and looked up at the stars to the song of the air brakes and the whir of > their air conditioning, and I cried, because there are no soloutions for me, > only choices, and I am not good with the consequence of choice. > I do not know wether to preseve those moments, this adventure as part of the > beads of my lifes necklace and not hope for any more, that that is my lot, > that is the end of those thread of beads or if I should continue to collect > them or at least try to and look back at the other beads that were my life > with my ex who was never really an ex, and say that is the end of that part > of the thread and those moments are beautiful and forever mine. > I hurt so much, my heart lies in a dozen different places, the seperation > is a grief that is almost unbearable, loyalty and desire and love and > responsibility are all mixed up and shaken together in some unenviable > cocktail of decision and indecision. I remember a fairy story, where a tin > soldier had to tie his heart with iron bands to stop it falling apart and > breaking and I feel as much like the soldier as I did the island. In the end > I think the soldier fell into the fire or chose to leap, and his heart > became a hardened lump of iron, a fusion of tin and band, amongst a grate of > ash and that is the fate I seek to avoid because it will be a fate of my own > making. > This has helped, it always does. It makes possibly no sense to anybody else > but me, but then it was never intended to. Those to whom it does make sense, > will of course understand it perfectly (hehehehe - which is a laugh in chat > rooms) It makes perfect, symmetrical, life blood sense to me. I thought I heard the heart beat, and I did. Your words above are some of the most beautiful and real words I've ever read. Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:59:17 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Why I am here MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wilbur... > Marie played the game along with Robert, she knew the risks.. As a matter > of fact, I can say that everyone around at the time knew the risks, since > Dolores and I were very careful to point them out. Indeed, there was an > outpouring of support for his revalation of his involvement with Marie. I > thought that the list had gone over the edge, that it was a soap opera more > than a place where reasoned debate occured. I made comments about how the > sort of dicussion that was going on didn't feel like reasoned debate, I told > Tamara about the soap opera. I think I understand what you are saying... isn't is similar to being a parent? I think it is. That knowledge and wisdom we've gained through our own experiences, that we want so much to somehow just *give* our children the wisdom we've gained, allowing them to escape painful consequences. They may appear to listen or defiantly reject our wisdom And no matter how hard we try as parents, that firey (sp?) red burner on the stove beckons to be touched by little hands. No words, lectures, not much I know of can stop that moment of touch, other than physical restraint. I don't believe that child *really* does know the risks. IMO, Psyber-L and Robert and Marie did not know the risks anymore than the child who touches a hot burner. I think that this is part of the power of CMC communication, knowing another sort of inside out rather than outside in is as luring as those coils glowing red and warm. The lure transcends *normal* awareness, and therefore transcends *normal* knowledge of risk. > I then posted a couple of different messages, along with Dolores, trying to > point out what I already understood about the nature of involvement on the > Internet, I got responses from everyone EXCEPT Robert and Marie, several > people supporting their involvement. Then it came out that Dolores had been > involved with someone else, then Steven went nuts for Dolores, then Lisa's > post on the how the Penis is to be worshipped.. So, IMO, much of Psyber-L felt the lure, and also fully not realizing the risks, especially because I suspect it was not primarily a totally conscious being at that point. It must have been difficult for you at that point, was it? But it still seems to me to be similar to a parent, and is now. As a parent, I've learned that when one of my sons did something like touch a hot burner, yelling at them for stupidity only increased a sense of shame. All I could do, really, was put my arms around them and comfort them. > Sure sounded like a soap opera to me. I had a way out. I was sharing what > was going on with Tamara. She and I both know the truth about this media. > She and I have both learned the hard way. Somehow, I wish we could all figure out a way to really warn someone of the consequences. I think I have been learning (I doubt very much my learning is done) the hard way too. I've touched that hot burner and been scorched. But I also know that there is warmth from the burner and that I can cook on it, and make wonderful foods that feed me and others. So I am trying to learn to do that without burning myself. I think, after reading Dolores post today, she is too. > One of the things that I'm very concerned with is the interaction of > technology and humanity. There is an old saying that the first thing that > men will do with a new techology is figure out how to have sex with it. I > must suppose that the same goes for women. The sexual urges are quite > strong, they are the foundation for much of the development of mankind, > after all, we'd all live at home for our entire lives otherwise.. This concerns me too. A lot. It's one reason I value Psyber-L highly, more so all the time. I believe this is a place that has awareness of the inclusion of sexuality/sensuality of life, not to the exclusion of all else, which I see so prominently elsewhere on the net. > We have played out the natural consequences of who we are and the technology > before us. > > What have we learned? That I still have a lot more to learn :))) Boy, do I ever! Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:41:35 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: For Laurel In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970513110450.251fc688@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dearest Laurel--out of pain, out of grappling with the damnable, glorious, frustrating, inviting choices and decisions of life--out of your investment in words from your Self, comes such beauty. I sat this morning spellbound by your story, your narrative of tensions and was touched deeply. As Sheryl put it, your words have "lifeblood sense," a "heartbeat" of beauty and authenticity. Somehow knowing you were in the States, I feel a tighter connection (although Miami is about as far away from the UK as South Dakota is from Miami). Even more, I saw in your words, in you, an expression of parts of me for which I have not had the words--and thank you deeply for this naming of the beast within, thank you for the jeweled thought of adventures as amber drops on the necklace of our lives, thank you for knowing that while there is still a "solitude of self" (Elizabeth Cady Stanton), I am not alone in grasping to understand or in engaging in the wonders and struggles of balancing the options of life.. Thank you for being you--and sharing you with us. Welcome home and God bless. Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:10:00 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: email address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:07 PM 5/14/97 GMT, you wrote: > >I am also exploring the possibility of a psybernet domain name, >though it seems someone has got a claim on it! > You can alter the spelling quite slightly and get a domain name.. For example Psyber-Net.com is currently not assigned to anyone.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:43:39 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Why I am here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl, At 10:59 AM 5/13/97 -0600, you wrote: >Wilbur... > >> Marie played the game along with Robert, she knew the risks.. As a >> Tamara about the soap opera. > >I think I understand what you are saying... isn't is similar to being a >parent? I think it is. That knowledge and wisdom we've gained through our >own experiences, that we want so much to somehow just *give* our children >the wisdom we've gained, allowing them to escape painful consequences. >They may appear to listen or defiantly reject our wisdom And no matter how >hard we try as parents, that firey (sp?) red burner on the stove beckons to >be touched by little hands. No words, lectures, not much I know of can >stop that moment of touch, other than physical restraint. I agree. I threw up my hands about a year ago and wrote that they would just have to learn the lessons the hard way.. >I don't believe that child *really* does know the risks. IMO, Psyber-L and >Robert and Marie did not know the risks anymore than the child who touches >a hot burner. I agree. That's why I'm not much other than sympathetic to their situation. >I think that this is part of the power of CMC communication, knowing >another sort of inside out rather than outside in is as luring as those >coils glowing red and warm. The lure transcends *normal* awareness, and >therefore transcends *normal* knowledge of risk. Absolutely. We're swimming in a medium that we don't understand, we can go under but still breath, and then at some point we forget that we're swimming.. Immersion is a powerful part of being human, but also can be a dangerous part. >> I then posted a couple of different messages, along with Dolores, trying >to >> point out what I already understood about the nature of involvement on >the >> Internet, I got responses from everyone EXCEPT Robert and Marie, several >> people supporting their involvement. Then it came out that Dolores had >been >> involved with someone else, then Steven went nuts for Dolores, then >Lisa's >> post on the how the Penis is to be worshipped.. > >So, IMO, much of Psyber-L felt the lure, and also fully not realizing the >risks, especially because I suspect it was not primarily a totally >conscious being at that point. It must have been difficult for you at that >point, was it? Quite.. But it's not a place that's unknown to me. >But it still seems to me to be similar to a parent, and is now. As a >parent, I've learned that when one of my sons did something like touch a >hot burner, yelling at them for stupidity only increased a sense of shame. >All I could do, really, was put my arms around them and comfort them. Once again, agreed. But sometimes I'm tired of being the parent. I became the parent, the intellectual adult when I was about 9 years old. The intellectual side of me has tyrannical dominance over much of the rest of my life.. but I don't know any other way. Last week it seemed that all of the interaction that I was getting with the world was based on parenting other people. When I get 3 or 4 calls in a day with people wanting to work out their life with me, it gets in the way of my own life.. >> Sure sounded like a soap opera to me. I had a way out. I was sharing >what >> was going on with Tamara. She and I both know the truth about this >media. >> She and I have both learned the hard way. > >Somehow, I wish we could all figure out a way to really warn someone of the >consequences. I think I have been learning (I doubt very much my learning >is done) the hard way too. I've touched that hot burner and been scorched. > But I also know that there is warmth from the burner and that I can cook >on it, and make wonderful foods that feed me and others. So I am trying to >learn to do that without burning myself. I think, after reading Dolores >post today, she is too. I think that Dolores is also building a new self with the aid of the freedom that exists her. I suspect that she would have done that no matter what, but the nature of this media makes much of this a public process, rather than a private one. I'm glad that Dolores is growing emotionally, I'm sure that she's doing the right thing. >> One of the things that I'm very concerned with is the interaction of >> technology and humanity. There is an old saying that the first thing >that >> men will do with a new techology is figure out how to have sex with it. >I >> must suppose that the same goes for women. The sexual urges are quite >> strong, they are the foundation for much of the development of mankind, >> after all, we'd all live at home for our entire lives otherwise.. > >This concerns me too. A lot. It's one reason I value Psyber-L highly, >more so all the time. I believe this is a place that has awareness of the >inclusion of sexuality/sensuality of life, not to the exclusion of all >else, which I see so prominently elsewhere on the net. I think that is one of the main values that I see here as well. >> We have played out the natural consequences of who we are and the >technology >> before us. >> >> What have we learned? > >That I still have a lot more to learn :))) Boy, do I ever! I don't know that I've learned anything other than I'm still human, but I'd really like to be able to express all that I feel from the learning.. Boy was that a mouthful. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:05:04 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: players - JimC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert, Holly: I'm a little slow to responding to this since I wasn't sure how (or if) I could. Holly wrote: > > Probably just stating the obvious here, > > but how can Robert determine whether > > or not you have responded authentically? Robert wrote in a reply to Jim: > As for assigning "projections" to you, do you feel that I have > done this? If so, what gives rise to that thought? If not, I wonder why > this questions exists. > Robert, If you have assigned projections towards me, I'm unaware of them. Perhaps this is a question you can better answer yourself. As for Holly's point, I took this as essentially a semantic nit pick and that her point was, in the absence of any rl validation - its impossible for an observer to determine "authenticity". Only the speaker knows if he is being authentic (i.e. not lying). For my part, I've been wondering about my behaviour in casting a negative projection towards you - where did this come from? Anita's concept of a "hook" has some potential validity, as does the "hot seat" analogy from other recent discussions. If the latter is correct then perhaps I have joined into "acceptable group behaviour" as I think you suggested after my initial challenge of you. I've come to this list long after many of the events that have affected your relationship with the list and I find it startling that within a such a short time after my arrival - there I was challenging and attacking you in way that I am loathe to do towards anyone in real life. Even more startling, I cast you in the image of someone I haven't seen or thought about in a dozen years! I suspect there is a connection here between who and how you are, and the projections and issues. This is not intended in a blaming way. If I can paraphrase one of Sheryl's points, this is not about "Bad Robert, you hooked me in!" Rather I'm asking for your perspective on what led to our interaction. One thought I'd like to throw into the discussion is something I picked up in "Facilitation 101" i.e. that none of us is capable of hearing what another says, we can only grasp what we THINK they said. Put another way, any understanding I form, is shaped by my own filtering, always. Perhaps by way of example, Dolores' eloquent post obviously has resonations for Susan and Sheryl that go beyond what I am able to connect with. ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:01:28 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Curiousity and acorns? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim: You said: > Perhaps by way of example, Dolores' eloquent post obviously has > resonations for Susan and Sheryl that go beyond what I am able to > connect with. > > ...Jim After reading Dolores' post and Susan's and my affirmations of what she was expressing, aren't you at least a little curious, the size of maybe an acorn, at least??? Oh sorry, Soul's Code readers, I just had to stick in a trigger :))) Sheryl :))) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:32:03 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: Curiousity and acorns? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sheryl Garner wrote: > > Jim: > > You said: > > > Perhaps by way of example, Dolores' eloquent post obviously has > > resonations for Susan and Sheryl that go beyond what I am able to > > connect with. > > > > ...Jim > > After reading Dolores' post and Susan's and my affirmations of what she was > expressing, aren't you at least a little curious, the size of maybe an > acorn, at least??? > > Oh sorry, Soul's Code readers, I just had to stick in a trigger :))) > > Sheryl :))) > I didn't mean to imply I wasn't interested, in fact I found Dolores's words wonderful and enlightening and all kinds of other good things. My comment was around sensing that there was a special and more intimate resonation for Susan and yourself. I'm embarrassed that my comment was unclear enough to be interpreted as disinterest. I'll take this opportunity to be more direct. Dolores, I'm sincerely sorry if I left you with the same impression as I have Sheryl. I respect the courage it took for you to make your journey, I admire the strength it took to face the realizations the trip brought you and I hope you have many more such journeys. I will read with interest and affection anything else you care to write. Thank you for sharing your experience so vividly. ...Jim PS. Acorns? Soul's Code? > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:07:10 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Susan/Sheryl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Susan, how nice it was to hear from you again, I thought you might have left the list, which would have been a great sadness. It was so comforting to know that I am not alone, I did not think I was, and I hoped I would reach somebody who understood because they too had had those thoughts and feelings, and in sharing them I am not so lonely or afraid and it somehow makes me stronger though I cannot say exactly how. It was strange being in the states, wondering how close to many of you I was passing as I travelled. I have always had the urge to have a cup of tea with you in your kitchen :) And Sheryl, my heart was thundering, and I wonder too how your heart will thunder when you too adventure. In the end the decision maybe was taken for me, before I left America, realising the impossibility of a relationship that can soley be supported by love and a computer between visits every few months, I told him that I would not contact him again when I got home other than to write him an email when I arrived to let him know I had arrived safely. I did it because I for the last 2 days I was there, I realised just how much I loved him, and how absurd it was to love somebody when there was no hope for a future only alot of hurt. I am good at minimising pain and screwing up royally as a result. At the airport I did not look back and I didnt email him for a couple of days, fate stepped in and the drugs I'd taken at the airport to numb the pain and deaden my senses kicked in and slept me unconcious for a day, then I spent a night with Tara at the hospital. He assumed that it was because I had chosen and when I finally did write, and told him how much I loved, cared for him, he had given up checking his email for me. He spent 4 days, deciding it was over and convincing himself that I had made the right decision. Last night I asked somebody to ring him, not having had a response from the letter I sent, he joined irc immediatly, and told me how I had broken his heart. He asked me why I didnt look back, and i couldnt tell him it was because I was crying so hard. You see I misread him totally, as I always do with men, and I mistook his nonchelant feelings of the last two days as a sign of rejection, a holiday romance over when really they were as much a hiding of pain, distancing of it, denial of feeling as my telling him I didnt want to know anymore had been. Now his pride, his self defence mechanisms have kicked in, and I am left wondering if I lost him forever, and if after all that wouldnt be the best thing. Doesnt stop the hurting though. It hurts like hell and screams in my soul and heart. I don't want to lose him. : > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:39:33 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: == Psybernet Mailing List Description == MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Logeman wrote: > > All, > > I have revised the description, my intention was not to change > any of the substance, but only clarify and improve the style. > All comment welcome, minor points of style etc. could come to me > direct, major points are best to go to the list. I like the tone and quality of this description. I think it would have helped me to be in a more appropriate frame when I joined the list. My only suggestion is around the following: > To give a sense of the intended direction of the discussions, > here is a list of suitable topics for the list, there is a > continued focus on how these psychological phenomena relate to > cyberspace: > > depth psychology > leadership in communication networks > creating communication environments > gender issues > imagination > metaphors > archetypes > dreams > myths > personal identity > psychotherapy > the unconscious > group dynamics. > Using the word "suitable" puts a restrictive quality around the topics and I have the sense the list is more open than that. I'd suggest something like the following: "To give a sense of the intended direction of the discussions, here is a sampling of topics that have been explored on the list. The list continues to focus on ..." ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:50:32 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Curiousity and acorns? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Dolores, I'm sincerely sorry if I left you with the same impression as I >have Sheryl. I respect the courage it took for you to make your >journey, I admire the strength it took to face the realizations the trip >brought you and I hope you have many more such journeys. I will read >with interest and affection anything else you care to write. Thank you >for sharing your experience so vividly. > >...Jim > >PS. Acorns? Soul's Code? Dear Jim, I don't think I read it wrong. I think Sheryl and Susan may have both shared the same experiences, and emotions. Susan and I in particular seem to have shared many common experiences re ex husbands etc. I think its a female thing, to have understood what I wrote fully, (ugh can't believe I said that) and I'll harp back to something I once said, about how women are better able to express emotions because it is socially acceptable for them to do so. Lets face it, if a man had written that he'd have been labled a wimp. When I thought about this some more, I became rather disgusted with myself, because I realised that when I see an extreme of emotion in a man, i.e when he cries, though I love him for the ability to be able to express it, part of me sees it as a weakness in him. That is because I believe that I want the two extremes, a man with the soul of a poet, and yet one with the emotional strength to cope with my moods as well as his. That is, that possibly due to some conditioning of my own, I expect to be able to lean on a man without having him crumble. If I am watching a weepy film, where the heroine is dying, true love is beckoning, and their baby is up for adoption as a result, or if Bambis mother has just been shot, I would hate it if I caught my partner reaching for the kleenex at the same time as me. I hate myself for saying that, because I am contributing to the emotional repression of men, when I am all for them going out and spouting poetry and writing music and generally just being able to accept who they really are internally, especially those who bottle up their emotions and find outlets for it in other more destructive ways. My sister in laws sister (gets convoluted here) was the victim of domestic violence because her husband, could only express emotions in that way, out of sheer frustration, having been taught that real men don't cry or share the way they feel, but that its quite ok for them to thump their wives as a means to expresss what they are feeling. I think it has all to do with the thing which I don't know the name for, by which women try to find the best possible mate for themselves, the strongest, the most intelligent, the one with the genes that will ensure the survival of their offspring in the best way. Of course love has a way of screwing up the best laid plans (no pun intended) of women when it comes to their version of genetic engineering. And I think Sheryl meant that from small acorns grow mighty oaks Another thing, a small suggestion, would it be possible for any of the group to meet on irc, so we could chat in real time maybe. It might take the list into a new dimension in more ways than one. I am sure Wilbur can direct those who are tech challenged how to download the programme to do so if you havent already got one, and if you have email I don't see why you can't use a chat client. It might be a revelation. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:29:29 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: == Psybernet Mailing List Description == In-Reply-To: <337AD9D5.9B7@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, Thanks for your comments, > Using the word "suitable" puts a restrictive quality around the topics > and I have the sense the list is more open than that. I'd suggest > something like the following: Quite right, it is not a pleasant word, and makes it sound as if it would easy to be unsuitable here. > "To give a sense of the intended direction of the discussions, > here is a sampling of topics that have been explored on the list. The > list continues to focus on ..." I will use these words next time. =20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@earthling.net http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:30:24 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Curiousity and acorns? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970515114634.270f0736@easynet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dolores suggests, >Another thing, a small suggestion, would it be possible for any of the >group to meet on irc, so we could chat in real time maybe. It might take the >list into a new dimension in more ways than one. I am sure Wilbur can >direct those who are tech challenged how to download the programme to do so >if you havent already got one, and if you have email I don't see why you >can't use a chat client. It might be a revelation. I have been the 'chatmeister' for another equally excellent discussion list, #netdynam, and I can report that it indeed adds another dimension to the quality of mutual regard. In fact, we registered our channel on the undernet even though we meet infrequently. It has been pointed out that IRC is an attractive for those who like to 'type in real time' and less so for those who need to rehearse their expression, so-to-speak. I would be happy to assist any of our members who are using Mac's and who may need support to set-up IRCle, the Mac IRC client, etc. *** (Btw, I've been *uncommonly* quiet here, but was struck by your report, Dolores, of your adventure and will have something to say about how I feel. In any case, I've been caught between the many worlds in a manner similar...heart shattering, tears...) *** best to all, HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:25:25 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Curiousity and acorns? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970515114634.270f0736@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores, > I think its a female thing, to have understood what I wrote fully, = (ugh > can't believe I said that) and I'll harp back to something I once said, > about how women are better able to express emotions because it is = socially > acceptable for them to do so. Lets face it, if a man had written that = he'd > have been labled a wimp. I think it is a gender thing too. I thoroughly appreciate your writing, and notions like this being like an elephant's grave yard for the soul as it were hover around me for a few days. The story of your adventures certainly add life, and enliven me, cheer me up, strangely. If a man had written it he might have been labeled a wimp, but also a genius . . . I used to get incredible praise for doing my share of child care . . . my son would pull all the books off the library shelf -- a favourite. When I was there the librarians would come and help put the books back. When his mother was having the same problem, she would get scowles for not doing here job. I do a lot of couple counselling. I think I get the referrals, mostly word of mouth, not because I speak fluent feminine, more because I can manage to do a fair job of translating, saying what the woman is saying without pissing the man off. I like the work. There is an incredible gender related difference, archetypal, stereotypal, whatever, but it is there! Very clearly noticeable as the couples flow through those two chairs in front of me. =20 It does seem as if, on this list, we see the difference and allow the difference. =20 As i see the women respond to you, I feel pleased, good to see Susan still here. It is like when one of our good women friends comes around. She will get together with kate, and they do a whole different thing together than we do when i come in on it. =46ine by me. On the other hand i like to get together with men, so I can speak masculine without feeling rude in front of the non speakers. > Another thing, a small suggestion, would it be possible for any of the > group to meet on irc, so we could chat in real time maybe. It might = take the > list into a new dimension in more ways than one. I am sure Wilbur can > direct those who are tech challenged how to download the programme to = do so > if you havent already got one, and if you have email I don't see why = you > can't use a chat client. It might be a revelation. I have never got it to work for me. I think we have had all the urls here on what to do, but when i got it to work technically, i could not find interesting chat. It is also difficult to work the day night thing. HooN mentioned the different types, i am sure i am the rehearsing type, spell checking type. Slow typer. More than that though, i like writing in my own time, free to do a bit here and there. =20 I'll give it a shot though, if the instructions arrive. In a similar real time vein I am thinking of another psybernet evening in Christchurch. This time with a fuller preparation in email, and also an email follow up, with perhaps more people subbing to the list. Thinking is about all at the moment . . . ideas welcome=20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@earthling.net http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:18:33 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: August Goforth Subject: Re: == Psybernet Mailing List Description == hi - how can I remove myself from this mailing list? thanks! _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:04:37 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: acorn irc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well I am volunteering to help anybody that has an ibm compatible machine. Yes the times are going to be all messed up, since I am 8 hours behind Australia, and 8 hours ahead of the West coast of america. I am nocturnal by nature anyway, and I stay up late most nights, but I would like very much to have the oppertunity to see how you all really do speak, and how we would all react when bundled together and seconds are our response times, rather than hours. I would suggest as a starting point, entering mirc into the search engine of your web browser and downloading a version of that, or I can send to anybody that needs it. The undernet is as good enough place to start since its not often lagged. I think amongst other things, those who have not ever tried inter relay chat, will find the language of emote icons and acronyms that have been developed to express emotions, and convey msgs in that medium interesting. The thing about the library books is soooo typical Walter. On another similar note, My husband actually says he discovered the best way to pick up women is to take Tara out shopping to Safeways, the attention he gets is incredible, even when she is being naughty, he once had a 20 min conversation with a girl in the cigarette kiosk who was entranced that Tara was pulling all the choc bars from the shelf, while he was playing the clueless daddy, if it had been me I would have gotten one of those, can't you keep that child under control looks, and I would have had to have slunk out without my nicotine fix for the day. What nick do you use on the undernet hoon, I am very often there, and threaten to come say hi. I would guess at Hoon by the way. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:17:41 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kataryn Subject: Re: Curiosity and acorns : irc Delores Wrote: > >Well I am volunteering to help anybody that has an ibm compatible machine. >Yes the times are going to be all messed up, since I am 8 hours behind >Australia, and 8 hours ahead of the West coast of america. I am nocturnal by >nature anyway, and I stay up late most nights, but I would like very much >to have the oppertunity to see how you all really do speak, and how we would >all react when bundled together and seconds are our response times, rather >than hours. > >I would suggest as a starting point, entering mirc into the search engine of >your web browser and downloading a version of that, or I can send to anybody >that needs it. The undernet is as good enough place to start since its not >often lagged. > >I think amongst other things, those who have not ever tried inter relay >chat, will find the language of emote icons and acronyms that have been >developed to express emotions, and convey msgs in that medium interesting. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dolores, Hoon, Walter ~~~ List Members: I was also most interested, Hoon, in your suggestion that we meet on IRC, and the above response of Dolores. I am hearing your expressions, Dolores and I am smiling, and of course relating to your sharings. I certainly agree that mirc is, indeed, the software necessary for a group communion. The URL to download [Free] is http://www.mirc.co.uk this software could rather be called the common denominator of all computer IRC communication. Thus, regardless of which ISP server you may be using [or its limitations of reach, within the Internet] one is able to add "Add" most of the server available for use, as well as full access to the EFNet, Undernet, and Dalnet. Both the Undernet and the Dalnet allow for registration of one' individual channel. EFNet, of course has the greatest international usage and channel available. I would also be willing to assist anyone, with IBMPC systems, becoming familiar with the basics for immediate use. I have found that usually no more than one hour is needed for this. Walter ~~~~~~ As we have spoken previously, of utilizing the Internet for the developement of professional counseling services, or as an expansion of the private, on line, one-on-one conference, to the group format, you might consider this. I am finding the necessity, at this moment, due to the time constraints of the individual client crisis modes, of moving a very select group of seven [7] to an IRC group session. Certainly this will be an "experimental" for all of us, and I am currently do a very informal survey among these seven, as to the parameters of topics for discussion as well as a balancing "free flow" period. I smiled, as you stated ..." I am the rehearsing type.......". I too was definately the rehearsing type also, until arriving at the IRC media a year ago. I certainly realized immediately, there are moments to ponder......but the "rehearsing" had to be completed, prior to coming on line. And then of course, the best rehearsed scripts, soon were usless, as the immediate free flow of thoughts and concepts, forced me to dump my scripts in the nearest trash can. There have been several of us, including yourself, that have spoken of utilizing your list, to research the potential expansion of the Internet media, to build our professional services. This too, could certainly include the researching of varied modalities........examples, being.....sessions of free flow...sessions of topic orientation.....roles of the facilitator....or cofacilitators..... I do wonder........with the intensity of both the exchanges and the speed with which they occur, how much will the facilitator be able to control the movements. We will not be able to do all those dramatic, attention getting, 'lets do it this way..."stuff", that we have found so successful in face to face, group sessions. We may find ourselves more that participants than the facilitators. There is, however a mechanisn for banning any person, that would become abusive to the group { Not that it would every happen, of course}. The channel operator [OP] may remain in complete control, or extend this OP control to all group members. [another potential point of group interreactive research]. Interesting to speculate Walter, and so glad you are willing to give it a try. I might mention also, the with the mirc software, logging of the sessions is possible, by all individual members, while connected to the channels, or on an individual one-to-one basis. Thus, if you wished these sessions archieved, you need only move your log data to your archieves. [I'll let the techno's assist you with that one ] However, those logs would be very extensive, due to the rapid pace of the conversations. Also, the channels can be configured for not only private or secret [ unable to be seen by even the IRCOP's], but also an \"Invite Only" mode. Thus preventing any strangers in the mist. I would be most interested in hearing from other list members of this group as to their reactions. I was also wondering........Of those that remain as "Observers"...I hate the word lurkers....would we have more member participation?????? Please, Observers....tell Walter!!!! Just Wondering ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kataryn _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 04:29:40 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Curiosity and acorns : irc In-Reply-To: <199705152217.RAA08122@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kataryn, all, > I am finding the necessity, at this moment, due to the time constraints > of the individual client crisis modes, of moving a very select group of > seven [7] to an IRC group session. Certainly this will be an > "experimental" for all of us, and I am currently do a very informal > survey among these seven, as to the parameters of topics for discussion > as well as a balancing "free flow" period. Interesting. I hope the time constrains are not the main motivation, as a shift of media like that will . . . as you know, change everything. The invention of paper led to the Roman empire etc.=20 > There have been several of us, including yourself, that have spoken of > utilizing your list, to research the potential expansion of the > Internet media, to build our professional services. This too, could > certainly include the researching of varied modalities........examples, > being.....sessions of free flow...sessions of topic > orientation.....roles of the facilitator....or cofacilitators..... > I do wonder........with the intensity of both the exchanges and the > speed with which they occur, how much will the facilitator be able to > control the movements. =20 I know there is much to research to explore. Much of value. I think I am willing to pursue this one. And note too that we have been looking at the *boundaries* the space here, and the question of having groups outside that space, how that adds complexity. How to work with that complexity without fragmentation is *on my mind* and I wont loos sight of that. =20 I really appreciate how others are taking the lead on this project. I truly *am* a participant in this IRC venture. =20 > We will not be able to do all those dramatic, > attention getting, 'lets do it this way..."stuff", that we have found > so successful in face to face, group sessions. We may find ourselves > more that participants than the facilitators.=20 Ahahahah in IRC but here to. I think this is one of those, media driven factors. I am developing a theory on this: I don't think it is "more participants than facilitators" or the tempting: participants AND facilitators, rather I favour: facilitation through participation. =20 The facilitation here in Psyber-L is hard to distinguish from my participation, but I bet if I were to hand it over to someone else for a while the list would change dramatically. Between you and Dolores, Hoon etc there is leadership happening, and you have raised many related to power, structure etc. In psychodrama we use the term warm-up, and speak of "creating a warm-up". I suppose all of us have a part in it, but as facilitator here I remain conscious of the warm-up . . . temenos might be an equally useful term for the same indefinable quality. Readiness is a similar concept. I guess they all relate to the meta-life of the group. The warm-up to the IRC feels good to me. =20 I might be doing a little of the participant / leadership thing right now, but I have a sense of letting that go with respect to IRC . . . I'll be participant. Not to say that I let go of leadership as a participant -- just as many here on Psyber-L offer leadership, facilitation. Slightly different from having the designated role. Ill set up mirc in the next few days. I am still on my old ISP, where the online charges apply, and are too much! I am setting up the new one, and will have unlimited access, and my own domain name: walter@psybernet.co.nz > I might mention also, the with the mirc software, logging of the > sessions is possible, by all individual members, while connected to the > channels, or on an individual one-to-one basis. Thus, if you wished > these sessions archieved, you need only move your log data to your > archieves.=20 I know how to do that. I am willing to store files on the Psybernet web site, or in the Psyber-L . . . however . . . those questions of structure I do not have the answer for.=20 I am not copping out completely though. I have a sense that this *is* in some way related to Psybernet . . . and I feel ok about that. If I did not I guess I could say: No way do I want this associated with Psybernet. I am not sure just what is emerging, but how it relates top this Psybernet list is of interest to me. ~~~ I have a preference for simply stating all the parameters boldly up front, and then retaining the right to alter them, after listening to discussion. That is quite leadership stance. How doers that work in IRC who defines the parameters of the channels? =20 > I would be most interested in hearing from other list members of this > group as to their reactions. I was also wondering........Of those that > remain as "Observers"...I hate the word lurkers....would we have more > member participation?????? Please, Observers....tell Walter!!!! Ahh! Tell us all please! Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@earthling.net http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 05:07:21 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == Leaving the list == In-Reply-To: <970515101832_-264462236@emout17.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable August Goforth=20 > hi - how can I remove myself from this mailing list? thanks! To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to:=20 LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM =20 In the body of the email write: =20 SIGNOFF PSYBER-L _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@earthling.net http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:01:49 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Curiosity and acorns : irc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:29 AM 5/17/97 GMT, you wrote: >Kataryn, all, > >> I am finding the necessity, at this moment, due to the time constraints >> of the individual client crisis modes, of moving a very select group of >> seven [7] to an IRC group session. Certainly this will be an >> "experimental" for all of us, and I am currently do a very informal >> survey among these seven, as to the parameters of topics for discussion >> as well as a balancing "free flow" period. > >Interesting. I hope the time constrains are not the main >motivation, as a shift of media like that will . . . as you know, >change everything. The invention of paper led to the Roman >empire etc. The invention of the street lead to the Roman Empire.. Yet another myth propagated by the papyrus cult.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:09:15 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Curiosity and acorns : irc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, I've been skimming the posts since I mentioned the acorn but don't think anyone tied it (maybe I missed it though.) It's in *The Soul's Code* by James Hillman. Some on the PSYBER-L have read it and it was focus of some discussion awhile back. Actually, I'd like to see more discussion about it. All, I have IRC, in fact I have MIRC, and have tried it a couple of times but appear to be IRC challenged, because I can't tell a person from a BOT. The people I assume are persons all seem to know each other, because I assume they wouldn't be chatting with a BOT, but I have no idea what they are talking about. It got that way for me with AOL chat, too, before my departure, so it's nothing new for me. But, if there is a PSYBER-L IRC let me know. Who knows what I could find out about myself, maybe that I'm typing challenged as well :) Sheryl L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:20:45 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Curiosity and acorns : irc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:01 PM 5/16/97 -0400, you wrote: > >The invention of the street lead to the Roman Empire.. Yet another myth >propagated by the papyrus cult.. > I almost forgot, this is the "Information Superhighway" and the current HTML specification is called "Wilbur".. Enough said.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:21:35 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Curiosity and acorns : irc In-Reply-To: <199705161516.JAA15354@henge1.henge.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sheryl, Jim, Wilbur, Dolores, all, > I've been skimming the posts since I mentioned the acorn but don't = think > anyone tied it (maybe I missed it though.) It's in *The Soul's Code* = by > James Hillman. Some on the PSYBER-L have read it and it was focus of = some > discussion awhile back. >=20 > Actually, I'd like to see more discussion about it. Acorns have been pushing their way through the psybersoil for a few posts . . . I mentioned Hillman & acorns in connection with the identity discussion, Sheryl, I thought youd picked up on that. I have not finished the book, but also like to discuss these things, especially when they tie in the Information Super Highway (Wilbur, the new HTML standard, Street, at this stage). =20 I am linking acorns, identity and this media. The acorn theory, in short, is that neither nature nor nurture create the unique identity of our soul. That it is a code that is beyond genetics or culture. =20 Yet if paper (means of writing law and giving orders) and roads (a way of transporting orders) led to the Roman empire, it would seem that the invention of technology has a huge impact, on culture, and surely people, even at a soul level? Is this new highway made up of paperless information impacting on our identity? =20 Look at all those questions we have here: Who am I? Am I here? Shall I be male or female? If we ask these things how will this new environment impact our children? (apart from RSI)=20 ~~~ I would like to add a more subtle point. Hillman has always argued against the notion of the self as a unified entity, we are many. Poly at the core, at the soul level. Is this new book an about turn? Is that why it is his first best seller? I think so. ~~~ =20 > I have IRC, in fact I have MIRC, and have tried it a couple of times = but > appear to be IRC challenged, because I can't tell a person from a BOT I have just done it, and looked in on such a discussion last night. =20 Dolores, which Undernet? There looked like a lot of them. Do the channels stay op permanently? =20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walter@earthling.net http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:25:22 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: You HAVE to see this! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:14:02 -0400 >Errors-To: johngr@cmhcsys.com >Reply-To: research@cmhcsys.com >Originator: research@cmhcsys.com >Sender: research@cmhcsys.com >From: Julie Albright >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: You HAVE to see this! >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > >This is pretty amazing.. takes gender bending to a new level! =20 > > >Subject: Woman punished for posing as man to win Internet bride =20 > >May 17, 1997 >Web posted at: 1:41 p.m. EDT (1741 GMT) =20 > >WASHINGTON (AP) -- A judge has awarded $264,000 to a woman who met what >she thought was the man of her dreams on the Internet, but four months >after marriage discovered he was a she. =20 > >Margaret Hunter, a 24-year-old administrative assistant from Alexandria, >Virginia, will get $250,000 in damages and $14,000 to cover what she >spent on the couple's relationship -- including $9,500 for their wedding >before 70 unsuspecting guests last April at a fancy hotel. =20 > >The ruling came this week from Circuit Court Judge Alfred D. Swersky in >Alexandria. =20 > >Hunter met Holly Anne Groves, 26, of Bryan, Texas, in the fall of 1995 >on the Internet. Groves called herself Thorne Wesley Jameson Groves, and >told Hunter she was a jet-set businessman dying of AIDS -- a >circumstance which kept "him" from being intimate. =20 > >Groves also bound her chest with bandages, saying she had rib injuries >>from a car accident. =20 > >Hunter grew suspicious when Grove did not seem to be getting sicker or >receiving any medical bills. When Grove's parents called and asked for >"Holly," Hunter went looking for Grove's birth certificate and learned >she was a woman. =20 > >Hunter said she hopes the fine will "send a real strong message" to >Groves and others who misuse the Internet. =20 > >Copyright 1997 =A0 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This >material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. > > > >Attachment Converted: C:\NET\PCEUDORA\Womanpun >____________________________________________________________________________ >________Julie M. Albright, M.S., M.A. =20 >Ph.D. Candidate >University of Southern California >Department of Sociology >Los Angeles, CA 90089 http://www-scf.usc.edu/~albright >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . >. . . . > > > ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:48:20 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: August Goforth Subject: Re: == Leaving the list == thanks - but I'm not sure what you mean by "sending a command" , could you be more specific? _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:47:03 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: You HAVE to see this! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wilbur Streett forwarded: > > > >Hunter said she hopes the fine will "send a real strong message" to > >Groves and others who misuse the Internet. > > Well with reference back to "Gendering around" - let THAT be a lesson to YOU! ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:40:16 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: == Leaving the list == MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit August Goforth wrote: > > thanks - but I'm not sure what you mean by "sending a command" , could you be > more specific? Walter wrote: > To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to: > > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM > > In the body of the email write: > > SIGNOFF PSYBER-L > Send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM and make the first line of the body of the message SIGNOFF PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:16:45 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kataryn Subject: Re: You HAVE to see this! > Wilber Wrote ~~~~> >>This is pretty amazing.. takes gender bending to a new level! =20 >> >> >>Subject: Woman punished for posing as man to win Internet bride =20 >> >>May 17, 1997 >>Web posted at: 1:41 p.m. EDT (1741 GMT) =20 >> >>WASHINGTON (AP) -- A judge has awarded $264,000 to a woman who met what >>she thought was the man of her dreams on the Internet, but four months >>after marriage discovered he was a she. =20 >> >>Hunter said she hopes the fine will "send a real strong message" to >>Groves and others who misuse the Internet. =20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Greetings Wilber ~~ Thank you for sharing. It could only happen on the Internet !!! Perhaps this tells us all ~~ Spend the $100.00, Obtain the profile following the research ~~ Then decide if real world is the place to really meet! ~~ Fantastic verifications! [Did I really suggest this?...Yes Am I Cautious?...Yes] _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:39:15 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Iron John -> Robert Bly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To all, This is a means of introducing my following posts to this group. = I have spent the past period of quiet in retreat. Listening to the = echoes from this group, reading Robert Bly's IRON JOHN and reviewing = James Hollis' UNDER SATURN'S SHADOW. The words have wrought me a measure = of peace and given me some words with which to speak. For the rest of = this post, I will present some of the words that I managed to hear, words = spoken by my male "elders". IRON JOHN :: We see more and more passivity in men, but also more na=EFvet=E9. The :: na=EFve man feels a pride in being attacked. :: ... ... :: He feels, as he absorbs the attacks, that he is doing the brave and :: advanced thing; he will surely be able to recover somewhere in :: isolation. A woman, so mysterious and superior, has given him :: some attention. :: ... ... :: The na=EFve man will also be proud that he can pick up the pain of :: others. He particularly picks up women's pain. :: ... ... :: Sincerity is a big thing with him ... ... The na=EFve man :: will lose what is most precious to him because of a lack of = :: boundaries ... ... We could say that, unaware of boundaries, :: he does not develop a good container for his soul, nor a good :: container for two people. :: ... ... :: But the na=EFve man's mood seems attached as if to a mountain. He :: can't separate it ... ... in his mood-trance, he is not :: present to his wife, children, friends. :: ... ... :: ... there is something in na=EFvet=E9 that demands betrayal. The na=EFv= e :: man will have a curious link to betrayal, deceit, and lies. (pp. 63-67) :: The genuine patriarchy brings down the sun through the Sacred King, :: into every man and woman in the culture, and the genuine matriarchy :: brings down the moon, through the Sacred Queen, to every woman and :: man in the culture. The death of the Sacred King and Queen means :: that we live now in a system of industrial domination, which is not :: patriarchy. The system we live in gives no honor to the male mode :: of feeling nor to the female mode of feeling. :: ... ... :: And in the mode of industrial domination there is neither king :: nor queen. :: ... ... :: As the father seems more and more enfeebled, dejected, paltry, he :: also appears to be the tool of dark forces. :: ... ... :: In our time, when the father shows up as a figure of ridicule ... :: ... ... the son has a problem. How does he imagine his :: own life as a man? :: ... ... :: Some sons fall into a secret despair. They have probably adopted, :: by the time they are six, their mother's view of their father, and :: by twenty will have adopted society's critical view of fathers, :: which amounts to a dismissal. What can they do but ask women for :: help? (pp. 98-99) Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:45:29 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Charles, It's been ten days since you wrote to me via PSYBER-L, ten days = for me to consider the words for a response, ten days in which to search = for a way forward. I want to thank you for the following words which = expressed a feeling I had already known, but seemed to be missed by = others here: > For my own sake, Robert, I feel pretty much at ease with what has > transpired, as I have said before. You go on to probe and provoke response (these words are used = without any negative overtones/undertones): > But for my *interest*, and perhaps for your sake or that of others > on the list, I still get the feeling that it might help > if you could answer the questions I raised to you a while back You are right. It would be good for me, for you, for some of the = others on the list, for Marie ... and for Walter. I left the DreamEvent, = left you, Walter, Marie, and others. I left giving very brief notice. I = left wounded. The previous post (IRON JOHN) speaks to that wounding. = Alone and stewing in the swamplands and healing, I found courage to = rejoin a situation once left (it would have been much easier to be = resurrected in a new list, new relations), rejoin and ask forgiveness. I = asked for this both in the DreamEvent and off-list with Marie. And since = then, I have honoured Marie with silence. And the silence has served to = condemn. Anita struck close to home as she spoke of my na=EFvet=E9. Reading = IRON JOHN (see previous post) I saw, I heard her words again. This time, = I heard them without anger. Merci, Anita. Tu m'as donn=E9 un cadeau = pr=E9cieux avec tes mots si honn=EAtes. > I still think it possible that your mode of therapeutic and > philosophic understanding -- or specifically that part of it > which goes under the name "existential", I would guess -- > sets up constraints on the *ways* in which you acknowledge > responsability when you feel that such is the appropriate > response to a situation You do understand the framework of thought and response that I = use for communication. Marry this with a belief that since we = experientially create knowledge and as creators we each have individual = power as creators, individual responsibility; we have no power over = others for their knowledge and experience, their creation of reality. I = am responsable to the central core of who I believe myself to be and to = the universe. If I shit on me, I shit on the universe. = I can offer to dialogue in equal relation, as I-THOU. Or, I can = retreat into silence. I cannot live for another, steal their power over = "self", rob them of their "self" responsability without inflicting mortal = damage to my own soul. If this sounds like abdicationof responsability, = then I have failed in finding the right words that would tell each of you = that you have individual power which protects you from allowing an = "other" to abandon you. When abandoned, it is usually the "self" who has = accepted and embraced the abandonment, convinced that this is what is = deserved for being so na=EFve. > some people -- and I suspect you may be one of them > -- would have perfectly good reason for saying something > more along the lines of, "I'm sorry for my part in all this, > but I can't apologize for the part that I don't see myself as > contributing". And the good reason would be that it doesn't > *enable* anyone who might want to shift all the blame You assume correctly. > my second question, which is along the lines of "should you > make your apology a little clearer, then, for the sake of those > who are not used to this particular mode of expression?"... I hope I have done this in this post (above) and through the = words quoted from Robert Bly. To say more begs the questions of "To whom = am I apologizing?" and "Why?". > and then there remains only the possibility -- and to my > mind, this is where the introspection comes in -- that you > further address my question whether maybe you are prone to > encourage projections I do encourage projections (I think that anyone who lets his or = her voice free to think aloud, to feel, to doubt, to challenge would stir = many ripples, set off many triggers and thus serve as a multi-pronged = hook for whatever projections "others" then create and set free. Does my = responsability then ask me to be silent so that others do not loosen = their projections to fall upon my hooks (the triggers, the ripples = stirred by my thoughts)? = > doing a kind of nimble two-step "between" different aspects of your > personality / philosophy. Charles, this is where I got confused. I do speak in ways that = strive to express thoughts once guarded deeply; but now given this = domaine in which to speak, I dare to "voice" these tentative thoughts = hoping to move passed the state of "peur aeternus". That such speaking = will cause problems I don't believe for a second ... I don't have the = power to "cause". My words however can indeed reflect what others have = long kept silent even from themselves. Is ignorance bliss? Should we = shoot the messenger for the messages he bears? many thanks, Charles my next poem will born of this exchange Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:55:14 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: My life as a computer. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear all, Recently I have been thinking, that I am not sure that we are not all like minor computers, that we were programed with a set number of variable responses to given situations. That you can predict a persons behaviour, map their character like a flow chart, because in essence we are all reacting to what might be wildly varying input in much the same way. A bit like the lottery machine, it sets the balls in motion, its only working with a set number of balls, but the outcome is different, the patterns are different and there maybe a billion different combinations but they are till the same 6 balls. I hope I am explaining this ok. We then none of us behave out of the norm, because what is not normal by day to day definition of normality, is also a perfectly normal response to the given data recieved, we spew out the resulting programme in response to the specific data. The programme may change slightly, but in effect its all the same dos. So when we are not reacting "normally", we are in fact doing exactly that, the programming is just reacting in a set and specific way to the new data its having to deal with. Do we all react the same way, is there a set pattern of behaviour specific to every human being, but in some way inter related, so that behaviour can be described as a composite series of limited and predictable reactions to circumstance. That we are all hooked up to the same mainframe somehow, while working on different terminals. if so what actually makes us individuals, if I am right, nobody can truly be an individual, we are just all reacting to the same programming, but a different version of it each time. Is what makes us an individual is that there are so many varients in this life programme, that you can never find two programmes that have been written the same way, even though its all taken from the basic blueprint of what makes us as human being (computers) tick. I have a feeling I am the only one thats going to know what I am on about this time. I'll try and explain better when I've had some sleep. It certainly looks like bull on reading at the moment. Love Dolores. P.S No I havent been smoking narcotic substances tonight. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:05:57 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: It snowed in Western Canada this morning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi to all, I travelled to work this morning through a small snow storm. It = was strange to encounter winter again while flowers are blooming (tulips = of many colours in our garden). The snow made me recall a poem I wrote = this fall, a poem which speaks of community, especially on-line = communities, through metaphor. I hope that this sharing via poetry = doesn't break (ne brise pas) your comfort and safety. Trusting this is = so I offer you the poem. winter streets at night ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ the frigid air burns near the eyes a face mostly covered with hood and scarf frames the eyes with background shadow the nose is twigged by the cold a sniff, then silence eyes look out at the netscape in winter snow flows in wild non-patterns, a white shroud for the still shapes beneath the whiteness hued with amber, blue, and shades of black drawn to the lights, first of passing cars then houses, lights of motion, of presence then the street lights, a line of separate poles showing the way home in the silence and darkness steet lights, solitary, silent until you listen carefully then you hear the hum the energy that speaks of life standing closer to the light a mythical heat begins to warm the soul within a community of street lamps in straight lines each isolated form the other except for the hidden umbilical cord, lights which strain to touch the projections cast by other lights trying to deny their isolation let a lamp burn out then the community = becomes fragmented let the line be severed and the community dies in isolation, in relation connected by soul createive energy in a shadowed universe in isolation, alone, abandoned a glimpse of hell in darkness Robert de Cyberie =A9 23-11-96 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:16:03 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice In-Reply-To: <33828BF8.6EBE@sk.sympatico.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Charles, Robert, all, It's hard to be a poet in cyberspace. This is my conclusion. *** By now my *view* of Robert has obtained a contour and made a journey. This I have caused myself. I'm in this journey enough to be able to see the projections, the 'distinguishment', the judging going on. I see my reaction to tone, to what I think Robert means, to the notion through which I dis-agree, and quite naturally all of this loops back to and against, me. *** But it's hard to be a poet as I said. Harder to be silent? Silence, the most superb state eros may attain! *** Just a few days ago, at my 25th high school reunion, a classmate asked if I was, ("now!") and artist. I laughed inside, somewhere deep. 'Not an artistic bone in my body.' 'It's a good act, it must be.' "Oh no, I'm not." (It's hard to be a poet in cyberspace.) *** How many years did I fall toward the artist? The girl? This 'puer' is not the casanova type but lurking in the background is the dog-like sexuality, and in the foreground the wish to be nicely s(mothered) but just don't make me *do* anything. (Robert, I'm not sure the puer aeternus can be made to go away or that one can get beyond this god. It helps me most to force myself to live more dynamically. But, on the other hand, it's hard to be a poet in cyberspace.) *** Well I found her the artist eventually deep inside me. She had been silent as isolated prisoners tend to be, witnessed great terrible goings on just outside where I had her caged... But her silence did not feel like punishment, she just knew I didn't know. It's hard to be a poet in cyberspace. *** HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:21:36 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HooN, Mon fr=E8re. Merci. Bien s=FBr, c'est difficile d'=EAtre po=E8te en = Cyberie. Mais pour nous, on n'a pas le choix. Allons chanter les = paroles de l'=E2me. Allons verser nos larmes sur les blessures du corps et= = du coeur. C'est bien difficile d'=EAtre po=E8te en Cyberie. Robert Longpr=E9 Sieur de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:40:03 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: Curiosity and acorns : irc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sheryl wrote: > > > I've been skimming the posts since I mentioned the acorn but don't think > > anyone tied it (maybe I missed it though.) It's in *The Soul's Code* by > > James Hillman. Some on the PSYBER-L have read it and it was focus of some > > discussion awhile back. > > > > Actually, I'd like to see more discussion about it. Thanks Sheryl, this is the connection I was missing. Walter wrote in response: >Sheryl, Jim, Wilbur, Dolores, all, > > Acorns have been pushing their way through the psybersoil for a > few posts . . . I mentioned Hillman & acorns in connection with > the identity discussion, Sheryl, I thought youd picked up on > that. I have not finished the book, but also like to discuss > these things, especially when they tie in the Information Super > Highway (Wilbur, the new HTML standard, Street, at this stage). > > I am linking acorns, identity and this media. > > The acorn theory, in short, is that neither nature nor nurture > create the unique identity of our soul. That it is a code that > is beyond genetics or culture. > I haven't read Hillman and I wonder how much of his thesis relies on the issue being Nature OR Nurture - most of the debate on this issue goes away as soon as we recognize that there is probably little behaviour that is not a product of Nature AND Nurture. As for the soul, I don't know what it is a product of ... but would observe that my brother (who is retarded) is quite untroubled by notions of soul - despite the fact that he has most certainly had ample opportunity to experience the vagaries of nature and nurture! I want to believe in the integrity of self - that we are each a single being with many aspects. In cyberspace, regardless of how fragmented my online identity may be, the fragments all connect behind the fingers of the man at the keyboard. I'm looking forward to more discussion of this theme. ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:08:09 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen Calhoun wrote: > > Charles, Robert, all, > > It's hard to be a poet in cyberspace. > > This is my conclusion. > > *** I'd say its hard to be a poet just about anyplace. ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:04:39 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice In-Reply-To: <3384FC09.C29@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Stephen Calhoun wrote: > > > > Charles, Robert, all, > > > > It's hard to be a poet in cyberspace. > > > > This is my conclusion. > > > > *** >=20 > I'd say its hard to be a poet just about anyplace. >=20 > ...Jim As i sit, by the fire of this screen separating me and connecting me with you=20 I search for a word that=20 means sadness and love. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:10:09 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, All: > > Stephen Calhoun wrote: > > > > > > Charles, Robert, all, > > > > > > It's hard to be a poet in cyberspace. > > > > > > This is my conclusion. > > > > > > *** > > > > I'd say its hard to be a poet just about anyplace. > > > > ...Jim > > > As i sit, > by the fire of this screen > separating me > and connecting me > with you > > I search for a word that > means sadness and love. > > > Walter Why sadness? Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:14:04 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:10 AM 5/25/97 -0600, you wrote: >Walter, All: >> I search for a word that >> means sadness and love. >> >> >> Walter > >Why sadness? Because it's a part of life also.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 19:33:53 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Wilbur Streett > To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM > Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice > Date: Sunday, May 25, 1997 11:14 AM > > At 11:10 AM 5/25/97 -0600, you wrote: > >Walter, All: > >> I search for a word that > >> means sadness and love. > >> > >> > >> Walter > > > >Why sadness? > > Because it's a part of life also.. > > Wilbur True, Wilbur, so I think I should be more specific and ask, you Walter, if you would care to share more? If you would, I would like to hear/read it. Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:47:29 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I search for a word that means sadness and love. Walter Try Dolores - it works for me. > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:22:11 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice In-Reply-To: <3391986f.9015045@smtp.es.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter: >I search for a word that >means sadness and love. resignation _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:15:05 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Simon=20 > Walter: > >I search for a word that > >means sadness and love. >=20 > resignation it lacks the note of=20 acceptance appreciation it includes the note of=20 defeat ~~~ I am amazed how 'resignation' fits my experience Is it your experience as well? Walter Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:05:39 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice In-Reply-To: <199705260041.SAA27482@henge1.henge.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sheryl, > True, Wilbur, so I think I should be more specific and ask, you Walter,= if > you would care to share more? If you would, I would like to hear/read = it. I appreciate the invitation. =20 I feel love for the people here. I see Robert struggling. HooN connecting the gender question with finding the 'feminine' artist that he is. I felt silence over the weekend, could not find words for the list, I wanted them to come from others. Psyber-L seemed empty. I felt connected and separated, I can't find the words. *I* find it hard to be a poet in cyberspace, poet being what it takes to be here, in tune, sensitive, perceptive, expressive capturing the soul qualities with words. =20 I feel sadness because the long discussion re gender, re the temenos involving Marie and Robert, all of us here now, is plateau-ing out, as if this is the resolution, the closure. An ending without a celebration. I sit here, feeling these things. Reflecting. Is this all projection? Am I at a plateau? or is the list at a plateau . . . Am I sad for whatever is lost with my life? Do I feel love for my own wounded struggle? Resigned, accepting, defeated.=20 Do I look in the mirror or at the list? Both? Why is it that I feel as if I am among ruins when nothing is ruined? As if the war is over when we have not had a war. If no one else feels & sees this am I out of touch with reality? Cyberpsychosis. Is it 'my' reality, not caused by anything here, just triggered by the messages? It probably is. I do have a story of a war in my life, where I feel defeated, quite independent of this=20 list . . .=20 And . . . If it is me, or if it is not . . . then I feel as if I am too much the hub, too influential, and too isolated. Forever, in the learning phases, tired. Tired. And inspired, I have not lost awe for our process . . .=20 ~~~ I had a session with a client today, and experienced envy of my client. We worked with a dream, and I assisted the client in entering into the dream more fully and to hear the dream. I added nothing . . . simply said the key words back, parsing Hoon might call it? The soul pattern of the dream began to glow in the room, it illuminated the client's childhood, and an early childhood trauma. At the same time the dream illuminated the here and now therapeutic relationship in the room, and also the relationship of my client's current family life. I am sure envy belongs in the system there, but it was also my envy, my need to have dreams heard in that way, not to be isolated with them. =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:09:57 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970526024306.4577c6ae@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores > I search for a word that > means sadness and love. >=20 > Try Dolores - it works for me. Perhaps we will all resonate to the same mood. Is resigned & accepting also included? Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:04:06 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice In-Reply-To: <338acd67.88122916@smtp.es.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter: >I am amazed how 'resignation' fits my experience > >Is it your experience as well? I sensed it in your words and your silence here recently, Walter, and it made me feel sad... As for me, yes, I think it runs quite deep... >> resignation > >it lacks the note of > >acceptance >appreciation > >it includes the note of > >defeat > >~~~ Au contraire, I think it can include all these things... and/or their opposites. There are so many situations, so many circumstances, involving and maybe entailing resignation that it's not, I believe, possible to see it in one way only. Resignation is a necessary part of life, but it's not necessarily a negative part. It might be an unhealthy foreclosure of possibilities, but it might be a healthy process of letting go, moving on. Defeat might simply be defeat, or it might be both defeat and victory. One person might lose and another win, or maybe both will lose, or both win. This is taking the meta view, I know. Maybe just trying to be balanced. Maybe looking in both the bright mirror and the dark mirror... Hope this is of help. Simon _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:16:05 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter wrote: As i sit, by the fire of this screen separating me and connecting me with you I search for a word that means sadness and love. And Dolores responded: Try Dolores - it works for me. Aiiiyeeeee! What a response! I don't say this to disinvite Walter from exploring his own feelings, which Sheryl invites him to do -- just to note with appreciation that Dolores has answered his question quite perfectly at the level of word-play, of poem, of naming. "Dolores". Because Walter wrote, "I search for a word" in a context of poetry, of naming, a context that involves the search for and finding of the exact word -- Walter having searched, that is, and having found "i" "search" "for" "a" "word" "that" "means" "sadness" "and" "love" to be the exact words to describe his search. Because Walter wrote, "I search for a word"... not words, but a word, and Dolores offered a word, a single word. Because Walter wrote, "a word that means sadness and love", and "Dolores" means "sufferings", from the Latin into Spanish, with overtones of Catholicism, of the "sorrowful mysteries" of the rosary, perhaps, Mary's heart pierced as she sees her son crucified and so forth... Not just "sufferings" as in toothaches, then, but sufferings to include also profound and sacred sufferings... to get us back away from the Catholicism thing, transformative sufferings. And because Walter wrote, "I search for a word"... and Dolores gave him a name, most powerful of all kinds of words, the only kind of word too powerful for dictionaries to list, too powerful too powerful for most "word searches" even in human memory to find... So that "Dolores" names a human being, this human being... and therefore means not only it's "meaning" from the Latin and Spanish, but all the flavors of our humanity... and the blend of them specific to this Dolores... who has written us angry and profound and romantic and reflective and regretful posts about many flavors of love... A universe of human feelings, then, and an entire realm of loves, tinged with profound suffering -- and a naming of oneself: all this in a single word! What a way to answer Walter's question! Aiiyyyeeeee! I laughed, I was a little sad, this was brilliant... -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:06:32 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice In-Reply-To: <338cd139.89100954@smtp.es.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Walter ... love to all, I have been offline for many weeks, due to a calamitous computer crash that left me scrambling for a new system and dropped me far behind in my academic work (which is what I should be doing now). I have read all the posts I missed, and my own name and words winding through them called me to be here, but the moment(s) seemed to have passed, and I could not find a way to connect, especially after such a long time of silence. Walter, I echo your words: > I felt connected and separated, I can't find the >words. *I* find it hard to be a poet in cyberspace, poet being >what it takes to be here, in tune, sensitive, perceptive, >expressive capturing the soul qualities with words. > > Do I feel love for my own wounded struggle? This struck me, hard. No, I do not feel love for my own wounded struggle. My long silence was born of shame, which is rejection of self. An inner battle that is far from resolved in me ... I am sorry if my long absence fed part of your sadness with the flow of the process here. In recent weeks, it was not by choice ... am I too late? Marie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:02:22 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:05 PM 5/27/97 GMT, you wrote: >Sheryl, > >> True, Wilbur, so I think I should be more specific and ask, you Walter, if >> you would care to share more? If you would, I would like to hear/read it. > >I appreciate the invitation. > >I feel love for the people here. I see Robert struggling. HooN >connecting the gender question with finding the 'feminine' artist >that he is. I felt silence over the weekend, could not find >words for the list, I wanted them to come from others. Psyber-L >seemed empty. I felt connected and separated, I can't find the >words. *I* find it hard to be a poet in cyberspace, poet being >what it takes to be here, in tune, sensitive, perceptive, >expressive capturing the soul qualities with words. Hmm.. Why must I be a poet to be able to do that? What's wrong with just being human? I think that being a poet is much less important than being real. >I feel sadness because the long discussion re gender, re the >temenos involving Marie and Robert, all of us here now, is >plateau-ing out, as if this is the resolution, the closure. An >ending without a celebration. I sit here, feeling these things. >Reflecting. Is this all projection? Am I at a plateau? or is >the list at a plateau . . . Am I sad for whatever is lost with my >life? Do I feel love for my own wounded struggle? Resigned, >accepting, defeated. Jade is a wonderful thing. It's the imperfections in life that give it meaning, the losses, not the wins. >Do I look in the mirror or at the list? Both? Why is it that I >feel as if I am among ruins when nothing is ruined? As if the >war is over when we have not had a war. If no one else feels & >sees this am I out of touch with reality? Cyberpsychosis. Is it >'my' reality, not caused by anything here, just triggered by the >messages? It probably is. I do have a story of a war in my >life, where I feel defeated, quite independent of this >list . . . Without courage to believe, you wouldn't have had a loss. With understanding loss you can't understand victory. Without sadness you can't have happiness.. I think it's a natural part of being human. Seems that the times when I've been happiest I've cried. I often find that happy thoughts bring a smile to my mouth and a tear to my eye.. What a strange thing it is to be human. >And . . . > >If it is me, or if it is not . . . then I feel as if I am too >much the hub, too influential, and too isolated. Forever, in the >learning phases, tired. Tired. And inspired, I have not lost >awe for our process . . . Being the leader is a lonely place. I'm sorry for that. I feel the same in my life. >I had a session with a client today, and experienced envy of my >client. We worked with a dream, and I assisted the client in >entering into the dream more fully and to hear the dream. I >added nothing . . . simply said the key words back, parsing Hoon >might call it? The soul pattern of the dream began to glow in >the room, it illuminated the client's childhood, and an early >childhood trauma. At the same time the dream illuminated the here >and now therapeutic relationship in the room, and also the >relationship of my client's current family life. I am sure envy >belongs in the system there, but it was also my envy, my need to >have dreams heard in that way, not to be isolated with them. There's only one way to have them heard. Do you know what they are? Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:10:35 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, Charles, Wilbur, Simon, Sheryl, Dolores, Marie, and all, Walter, you have touched some deep places that I seem to have visited as well. ... "resignation" ... perhaps after all the agitation, the dancing, another word would be "acceptance" for what is rather than what could be. ... "defeat" ... a giving in, a growing down, a wounding ... yet, is this not also a victory allowing us to become "fuller" and to move again past "stuckness" . >... " I felt silence over the weekend, could not find >words for the list, I wanted them to come from others." and I heard silence, a silence that spoke loudly about being absent. My voice speaks out and others then talk to each other ... I thank HooN for talking "to me" ... talking that reflects and resonates with what is happening inside of me ... talking which tells me we are still connected ... silence which also is connecting ... the words finally begin to come, Walter, words which bridge the silence, words that connect authentically as they come from deep places ... you wait for others to speak, to lead in response, I wait for response and wait for new themes to which I might the become a participant "comme les autres". This role of shadow is too burdensome for this poet. >Do I look in the mirror or at the list? Both? Why is it that I >feel as if I am among ruins when nothing is ruined? As if the >war is over when we have not had a war. energy is missing, direction is absent, vision??? Where to now? I hope that we can finally draw closure to the DreamEvent transported. Trust? Need it be rebuilt? Has it been fatally flawed? Maybe a post-mortem is needed to answer these questions and to built together a path for our continued journey ... How does this happen? Who is leader? Do we need a leader or can we do it cooperatively because the group wants to move forward and keep this place vibrant? The silent war is over and the causualties??? >At the same time the dream illuminated the here >and now therapeutic relationship in the room, and also the >relationship of my client's current family life. I am sure envy >belongs in the system there, but it was also my envy, my need to >have dreams heard in that way, not to be isolated with them. building walls, boundaries ... building temenos identity, investment, interactive, yet isolated by the medium, by the cyberian distance poetically, pragmatically, with the promise of brising the barriers Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:23:11 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Walter needs a hat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Walter Whats up? You'll feel much better if you just spit it out, shove it on paper, take the thoughts and feelings in your mind and turn them into words, and stare at them in black and white, then you can look at them clearly and think oh heck, or cringe, or thats what I really meant, or god I better snap out of this. You don't have to be a poet for that, theres no such thing as bad poetry - If you write it for yourself. In that way we are all, each and everyone of us capable of being poets, and none of us better than the other. A real poet writes for his/herelf and does not seek the admiration of others in his/her scribbling because that then becomes an ego trip, not a poem. Look at the differerence in my posts when I mean something, and when I am just sticking down words for their own garbled sakes, or to say look at me, aren't I clever? ( boy do I get that wrong alot) So go be a poet Walter Love Dolores P.S See, you wouldnt be feeling like this if you had bought that blessed hat. Go buy it, it might be just the therapy you need. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:16:38 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Walter needs a hat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dolores & Walter, Dolores wrote: > > Dear Walter > > Whats up? You'll feel much better if you just spit it out, shove > it on paper, take the thoughts and feelings in your mind and turn > them into words, and stare at them in black and white and, I would add in good "walterian" tradition to bring it to the list. > You don't have to be a poet for that, theres no such thing as > bad poetry - If you write it for yourself. In that way we are > all, each and everyone of us capable of being poets I agree that there is a poet in each of us. For some the poet is very small with hardly any voice at all. Too long has the identity in charge told us to be pratical and to "suck it up" ... hardly a nurturing environment for that poet in us to feel like speaking up. > and none of us better than the other. I don't know if I can agree with this if we are talking about the "poetry" that issues from the "poet". As for the "poet", I agree, as individuals, no one is better OR WORSE than another ... and that is a hard one to swallow when we have to include serial killers, rapists, in with the Mother Theresa's and the Walter's. > A real poet writes for his/herelf and does not seek the > admiration of others in his/her scribbling I thought we were "all" poets? At least, that is what I got from the opening to this post. If I were to quote Rainer Maria Rilke, a poet of enormous stature from the ealry 1900's, a poet is one who has no choice but to write. As for seeking admiration, that is part of the process of "validation" of seeking "resonance". Should we demean Rilke as he actively paraded his "work" inorder to finance his life? His work grew with the "admiration of others". Maybe he suffered an ego trip. But, for his suffering, we are blessed with some precious poetry. > -because that then becomes an ego trip, not a poem. What are you really trying to say, Dolores? Is this a "reaction" to any particular poem or poet? As a self-proclaimed poet (would you like a portfolio of my work or will you trust to my perception of "self"?) I feel a slight ripple of anger at this. Does this mean that since I publish "poetry" that the works in them are not "poems"? Does publishing (an ego trip) undo the birthing of each word, of each line, of each poem? What then are these things if not poems? It sounds to me as if the is an authority outside of oneself who has come to pass judgements of worthiness of poets and of their craft. Dolores, I don't mean to offend, but I do want to voice the ripples that your words have stirred within me. I hope you will forgive me if I have given offence or have spoken too much out of turn. Walter, bring it to the list. Perhaps it will come as a poem. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:36:21 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Walter needs a hat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I asked once before.. Just why must a person be a poet to create value with words? I don't see that being able to twist words into sounds that are similar means that the value of the thought behind it, or the humanity, is increased.. I don't see that being able to find nice metaphores changes the value of human feelings. Or gives them true voicing. I actually sometimes believe that the real value is being able to see life for what it is without the sweet metaphores, rhymns, rythms.. Putting the poet up on a pedestal because the words "sound nice" takes away from the meaning. Back in the 13th centure the Bible was rewritten to "sound nice". I once heard the original voicing for the prayer that is said when people are put into the ground. Before all the meaning was taken away when it was made to "sound nice". I connected quite easily with the meanings, and was quite moved. Can't say the same for what is said now. The humanity is gone. Sounding nice doesn't mean being nice. Sorry that my words don't sound pretty. Actually, no I'm not, I'm happy about that. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:52:10 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970526110632.006a2858@qed.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marie=20 What a delight to see your email in the list this morning. I wrote: > > Do I feel love for my own wounded struggle? >=20 > This struck me, hard. No, I do not feel love for my own wounded = struggle. > My long silence was born of shame, which is rejection of self. An = inner > battle that is far from resolved in me ... I hope the return from silence is a good sign, and that you benefit from our discussions here on these matters. I am intrigues that the rejection of self is linked to your silence here. I seem to be in the opposite space, where I feel love towards my own wounded struggle and such struggles here, and am not so silent here. I do have phases of silence . . . like on the weekend. =20 =20 > I am sorry if my long absence fed part of your sadness with the flow of= the > process here. In recent weeks, it was not by choice ... am I too late? Not too late, in my opinion. I wrote a *very* belated response to your 'extremes' post on 7 May. I hope that you have listened enough to hve regained some balance and that you have some perspective on the boundaries here.=20 Look forward to hearing more. Walter (I append my last post to Marie) =20 ~~~ quote ~~~ To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM Subject: Re: extremes =46rom: Walter Logeman Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:56:43 GMT Marie, It has been a while! What a revelation it is to read your post here from almost a year ago. Good to read. I recall it well, (quoted in full below) and perhaps it is one of those that was not responded to, sadly. Here am i doing it! Ah well, hub or no hub . . . it I am pleased to do it! =20 > Finding balance takes > day-by-day, conscious effort for me, and I became unbalanced here. I = will > continue to listen until I feel that I have regained some perspective, = and > that I know where the boundaries are. How are you doing with this? I hope you have found some balance, though i think *extremes* can also have their value. Have you actually managed to listen all this time? =20 *Boundaries* and their nature is one of the underlying themes all this time here. Perhaps you still do not 'Know where they are', and listening is still more appropriate. The boundaries you refer to . . . I am not sure of the exact nature of them. . . At an unconscious level I think i have focussed on making some here, a temenos, a space, within which we can explore. As you write I think of the boundaries *here*. =20 I don't know where they are. =20 I am handicapped by my knowledge of boundaries in psychotherapy and groups, what they are like here? That is our search . . . I hope this response reaches you, and that it is ok to get . . . Walter=20 ~~~ On Fri, 24 May 1996 11:13:55 -0400 Marie Tondreau wrote, in a post entitled: "extremes" : > Dear all, >=20 > I have said that the value of experiential learning is the opportunity = to > reflect on our experience, and learn from it. I have been doing just = that. > I have always loved words, and language, and metaphor -- and I have = always > had a tendency to slip into extreme states of mind. I have gotten = carried > away with both lately, here and in the dream event. The Internet is a > powerful tool for communication, and connection, and it allows for the > expression of many levels of reality, but it is not a substitute for = life. > My life is out here, in the sunlight, and it is dangerous for me to = make > such an emotional investment in this forum as I have. Finding balance = takes > day-by-day, conscious effort for me, and I became unbalanced here. I = will > continue to listen until I feel that I have regained some perspective, = and > that I know where the boundaries are. >=20 > The experience, the insight and the learning that we share is real, = however, > and I am grateful for it. Thanks to everyone who has shared. >=20 > bright blessings, >=20 > Marie >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >=20 >=20 >=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ =46or list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:33:02 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: hat over heart In-Reply-To: <338B9586.11DE@sk.sympatico.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" How about... as a 'feeling' idea... that we play with the definition of what we do here in Psyber-L as being poetical and poetic and poets all, but: not producing poetry necessarily, but poeticconsciousness primarily. *** moment to moment upwelling burst our joyfulsadfull imagesilence tells us our truth telling essence *** HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:29:11 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Walter needs a hat In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970527211859.26f77f26@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores, > P.S See, you wouldnt be feeling like this if you had bought that = blessed hat. > Go buy it, it might be just the therapy you need. OK. I'll do it. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:50:50 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Walter needs a hat In-Reply-To: <338B9586.11DE@sk.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, > Walter, bring it to the list. Perhaps it will come as a poem. You know, I think Dolores is right about the hat. But I think i *am* a poet! Quietly and solidly, without egoism *or* humility as this post (and the famed hat) testifies! That bloody perceptivity of feeling too much and seeing too much and no mount of words ever being enough to manifest the joy or the ache. =20 I think i virtually live the poetry. The hat is a good example. It is not a poem of words, but i have been playing with the theme here of wearing different hats, participant facilitator, and linking that in with your hats . . . grandpa bob etc. and the genderhats Tamara wears. =20 So when i wrote i could not be a poet, on the w/e that was because at that moment . . . those days, for whatever reason i could not write to the list, and hence i identified with the theme hoon had brought in. =20 One reason i could not write, was that i did not wish to . . . could not, respond to you directly. Today on this theme, i can do it easily, quickly. The silence was my poem that day. =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:31:02 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Walter needs a hat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter I wrote yesterday: > Walter, bring it to the list. Perhaps it will come as a poem. not realizing that the silence was indeed a poem, a powerful poem. Today's words colour that poem. > You know, I think Dolores is right about the hat. But I think i > *am* a poet! Quietly and solidly, without egoism *or* humility > as this post (and the famed hat) testifies! Writing the poem is a moment "outside" of both egoism and/or humility. It happens. > That bloody > perceptivity of feeling too much and seeing too much and no mount > of words ever being enough to manifest the joy or the ache. Oh but the bittersweet dance with those words (with ourselves) like an act of labour in giving birth to expressions of soul. No words ever capture that to our satisfaction. > I think i virtually live the poetry. Then that makes us poems as well as poets. This image is right. The Wild Man, the Warrior, the King, the Trickster, the Lover, the Cook, the man of Grief ... and now, the Poet/Poem (Robert Bly's seven beings of man). > So when i wrote i could not be a poet, on the w/e that was > because at that moment . . . those days, for whatever reason i > could not write to the list, and hence i identified with the > theme hoon had brought in. > > One reason i could not write, was that i did not wish to . . . > could not, respond to you directly. Nor can anyone else other than HooN. And, this causes me concern. When not engaged in debate "About" the archetypes that I become for the list, the dialogue of others debate "Around" my posts. At times it appears that to respond directly to me is "Inappropo" for the list. I wonder why I am here, if I truly belong? This is not a threat about leaving the list. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:48:59 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Being present MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marie, This letter is long overdue. I have tried to make amends for my act of last year (twelve months less days) by sticking with the wounding. I have often felt like abandonning the PSYBER-L list, but felt to do so would again be an act of wounding of others ... wounding you again, Walter, HooN, and Charles (and our cherished Susan) ... I don't understand how I wounded Anita. I am still confused about the wounding of Dolores and Wilbur. And, then there are those who feelwould feel wounding who have joined the list since the famed/infamous DreamEvent. As you can tell from my posts, and the reaction by others in PSYBER-L, my staying has also caused pain. I have yet to know which pain is worse, that of staying or that of leaving (both for the Psyberians and myself). It was good to hear your voice, to think that in some minute way, the time in purgatory is drawing to an end. Of course, in this I could be mistaken and the "Act of Contrition" must necessarily continue. Robert _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:58:39 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Walter needs a hat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert, I've responded to you directly.. So why do you ask if it's "not OK"? I haven't brought up the issue that we agreed to get into, so this seems a good a time as any. Topic this time around, religious belief. (ducking..) I don't understand how you can live in a fundamentally religious village and teach language to their children and believe that you are a "free spirit". While I can see that your spirit has freedom here, I think that I recall that you were concerned at one point that the people in the town would see what you write here. My definition of "free spirit" doesn't include being concerned about what you say to the extent that I feel that you might be in this town. Wilbur At 06:31 AM 5/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >Walter > > I wrote yesterday: > > Walter, bring it to the list. Perhaps it will come as a poem. >not realizing that the silence was indeed a poem, a powerful poem. >Today's words colour that poem. > >> You know, I think Dolores is right about the hat. But I think i >> *am* a poet! Quietly and solidly, without egoism *or* humility >> as this post (and the famed hat) testifies! > > Writing the poem is a moment "outside" of both egoism and/or >humility. It happens. > >> That bloody >> perceptivity of feeling too much and seeing too much and no mount >> of words ever being enough to manifest the joy or the ache. > >Oh but the bittersweet dance with those words (with ourselves) like an >act of labour in giving birth to expressions of soul. No words ever >capture that to our satisfaction. > >> I think i virtually live the poetry. > > Then that makes us poems as well as poets. This image is right. >The Wild Man, the Warrior, the King, the Trickster, the Lover, the Cook, >the man of Grief ... and now, the Poet/Poem (Robert Bly's seven beings of >man). > >> So when i wrote i could not be a poet, on the w/e that was >> because at that moment . . . those days, for whatever reason i >> could not write to the list, and hence i identified with the >> theme hoon had brought in. >> >> One reason i could not write, was that i did not wish to . . . >> could not, respond to you directly. > > Nor can anyone else other than HooN. And, this causes me >concern. When not engaged in debate "About" the archetypes that I become >for the list, the dialogue of others debate "Around" my posts. At times >it appears that to respond directly to me is "Inappropo" for the list. I >wonder why I am here, if I truly belong? This is not a threat about >leaving the list. > >Robert de Cyberie > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:30:43 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: definition of an artist... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just came across the following on another list and felt it might be valued/valuable here. My apologies if you consider it intrusive. Simon Buffy Sainte-Marie ====== "I think the definition of an artist includes the way we all are when we're five years old," muses Sainte-Marie. "If all of us in this building were to go to the beach with the mindset we had when we were five years old, we would make art. We'd make little houses. We'd make drama by pretending. We'd make pictures in the sand. We'd dance, we'd make rhythm.... Artists," she proposes, "are the people who are able to resist the school system fragmenting us because it's convenient to do so, when the art teacher is in competition with the music teacher, and all creativity is in competition with the 'real' curriculum.... "It's only the falsities of the hierarchical pecking order which runs most of our lives," she suggests, "and many of us are becoming aware that this is not the only way to run society. The community in many indigenous societies is a circle. It's not a pyramid with the more powerful oppressing whoever is beneath them. And that's why the Net is so important...." ====== _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:01:36 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: Re: Walter needs a hat In-Reply-To: <338B9586.11DE@sk.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 27 May 1997, Sieur de Cyberie wrote: > Dolores & Walter, > > I don't know if I can agree with this if we are talking about the > "poetry" that issues from the "poet". As for the "poet", I agree, as > individuals, no one is better OR WORSE than another ... and that is a > hard one to swallow when we have to include serial killers, rapists, in > with the Mother Theresa's and the Walter's. Is that who we have in this list? Goodness, our diversity is much broader than I imagined! ;-) > Dolores, I don't mean to offend, but I do want to voice the > ripples that your words have stirred within me. I hope you will forgive > me if I have given offence or have spoken too much out of turn. Robert dear, I think thou doest protest too much. Try softening it sweetly with seems and maybes and let it go. Dolores/laurel is a hardy soul--and she won't hesitate to whack you if you offend. I know you are moving tentatively here . You are valuable in who you are--and I know, at least for me, that I value you and your presence. Perhaps the shadow carried is as much from you as from the rest of us......sooo......let go....Perhaps a motto for us all (which I scarfed from somewhere, so don't think it original to me) would be: Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Don't be mean. ---and for heaven's sake, don't drip apologies all over the place....it makes a mess on the carpet. hugs-- Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:13:50 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: Re: Walter needs a hat In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970527211859.26f77f26@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII x x x @ x X {*} x X {*} x X {*} x X{*} x x } x x xxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Walter's Hat (a bit of a combination of Robin Hood, Peter Pan, and Merlin) imaginatively, Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:17:56 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: Re: Gender Masks: Voice In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970526110632.006a2858@qed.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dearest Marie--Your voice here opens a door for me to feel a connection in this place that has been long missing! How ironic--in rl, I have laryngitis, but my fingers feel free to speak...and even to dance. A thousand welcomes, dear friend. Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:43:11 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: Being present Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Robert, At 06:48 1997-05-28 -0700, you wrote: > ... I don't >understand how I wounded Anita. You have not wounded me personally. The only bone to pick with you was - your breaking off the Dream Event. But this matter is closed, I hope. > As you can tell from my posts, and the reaction by others in >PSYBER-L, my staying has also caused pain. I have yet to know which pain >is worse, that of staying or that of leaving (both for the Psyberians and >myself). Your staying has not caused pain to me. When I am silent, it only means that I am overwhelmed by works. But surely I am present, even although without words. My best regards Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:26:03 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Wounding? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert, I hope that I've made it clear that you have not wounded me in any way. I fully expected something of the sort of outcome from your online involvement with Marie. If I would have been wounded from that it most certainly would have been my problem. On the other hand, I have a couple of ideas as to why the situation played on dispite Dolores and my warnings, and I have a couple of ideas as to the sort of cultural motivations that might cause you to continue to look to cleanse your soul through your suffering. After all, we all know the christian need to suffer for sin. (At least some of us do..) I suspect that your religious beliefs have a lot to do with this ongoing crucifixition (sp?).. While it has been pointed out that there are some here that are projecting, it was also pointed out that you are providing the "hook" for the projections.. Actually, I'm quite tired of it all. Seemed like a bad soap opera a year ago, and I wonder when the network is going to take it off the air. Other than a transition of the discussion into the involvement of religious beliefs in this, as far as I'm concerned, you and Marie were consenting adults and you both are responsible for your own actions and the attending fall out. I'm not "wounded" by you, I was wounded a long time ago hearing the fallout of my parents lives.. and getting the resultant individual "pain" that I carry. Some of the things that have happened to me will remain a scar, and will forever set my emotional background.. I have taken the ones that get in the way of my living a good life and dealt with them, and I've come to the realization that I'm going to continue to have to deal with them for the rest of my life. That means that I'll get to tell the stories and think about the realities of what happened as a sort of cleansing of the wound and a redressing. The emotional content doesn't go away, it just changes, but it never goes away.. The emotional painting that is me has reached conclusions about the online media that preclude the "poetic" "romantic" involvement.. But then I'm happy that I managed to get my emotional baggage in order enough to allow my wife to enter my life. And I'm glad that I can maintain that order. Both she and I have played with "online romance" in the past. I for one need the internal representation of emotional truth to be mirrored in the real world. I don't have the energy to sort out all the things that are going on in my life as it is, let alone the complexities of multiple relationships.. on or off line. The main relationship that I've found gives me the freedom to live a good life is the relationship that I maintain with myself. That doesn't include being "poetic". It does include tending to the wounds.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:42:42 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Religion vs Mythology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wilbur, Thanks for the invite to talk directly. It is good to change threads as I was more than weary of the "psychodrama" fallout from the DreamEvent as well. With such a wealth of ideas within our company of Psyberians, the "plateau" should become "history". > I haven't brought up the issue that we agreed to get into, > so this seems a good a time as any. > > Topic this time around, religious belief. (ducking..) Did somebody throw something? (reflexively ducking by suggestion) > I don't understand how you can live in a fundamentally religious? > village and teach language to their children and believe that you > are a "free spirit". I feel free because I don't fall into the pews of any of the eight churches (2000 people) ... Mennonite, Pentacostal, Mennonite, Luthern, Catholic, Mennonite, United, Evangelical Christian Fellowship). I don't have the weight of theology acting upon my soul, limiting what I read, what I reflect upon, nor with whom I engage in relation. I stand outside of all these churches. > While I can see that your spirit has freedom here, I think that I > recall that you were concerned at one point that the people in the > town would see what you write here. This wasn't for religious reasons, this had to do with the habit of youth to misinterpret, to not understand, to ignore context. Communities are not "vacuums" thus they do provide a stage for us to act upon. My stage is small and the peer group is near non-existent in the realm of poetry, philosophy, and notions of psychology. Yes, there is freedom here ... even the freedom to err. > My definition of "free spirit" doesn't include being concerned > about what you say to the extent that I feel that you might be > in this town. Clipped wings while in town, yes. Outstreached wings in the skies of Cyberie (cyberspace). Is any small town different? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:42:53 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: definition of an artist... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Simon > I just came across the following on another list and felt it might be > valued/valuable here. My apologies if you consider it intrusive. Intrusive? Not at all. Thank you for these words about the artist (the poet) within. Buffy Sainte Marie is from a town not so far way from where I now live and I enjoy her music and her valuation of humans and nature. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:43:02 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Walter needs a hat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan, I treasure the moments when you find the "will to voice" here in PSYBER-L. You lead gently, yet firmly :) > Robert dear, I think thou doest protest too much. Try softening it > sweetly with seems and maybes and let it go. The lady doth speak with verity. All sound and wind lacking real fury ... the fury is missing ... with the fury comes taming, a softening of the spirit. I admit to hard edges that comes from standing "outside" the circle as noisy observer, observing even myself observing. > I know you are moving tentatively here . You are valuable in > who you are--and I know, at least for me, that I value you and > your presence. Perhaps the shadow carried is as much from you > as from the rest of us Tentatively wearing moccasins to muffle the intricate footwork, the patterned dance steps. Yes, Susan, your hearing is acute. Part of the tentativeness comes from a hesitant belief in self-worth in terms of this community ... therefore the apologies, the willingness to be dismissed from this company. Shadow? My shadow, our shadows, and the shadow that belongs to the list ... differentiating the parts from the whole, recognising that all the parts are also part of my whole. I think that Walter wrestles with some of this as well ... > hugs-- > Susan Thanks for the hugs, Here are some hugs back {{{{{Susan}}}}} Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:43:12 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: Being present MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anita, Thank you for the words of affirmation. It is time to write a new story here, perhaps together. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:52:00 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Religion vs Mythology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:42 PM 5/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >Wilbur, > > Thanks for the invite to talk directly. It is good to change >threads as I was more than weary of the "psychodrama" fallout from the >DreamEvent as well. With such a wealth of ideas within our company of >Psyberians, the "plateau" should become "history". > >> I haven't brought up the issue that we agreed to get into, >> so this seems a good a time as any. >> >> Topic this time around, religious belief. (ducking..) > >Did somebody throw something? (reflexively ducking by suggestion) > >> I don't understand how you can live in a fundamentally religious? >> village and teach language to their children and believe that you >> are a "free spirit". > > I feel free because I don't fall into the pews of any of the >eight churches (2000 people) ... Mennonite, Pentacostal, Mennonite, >Luthern, Catholic, Mennonite, United, Evangelical Christian Fellowship). >I don't have the weight of theology acting upon my soul, limiting what I >read, what I reflect upon, nor with whom I engage in relation. I stand >outside of all these churches. I can understand that.. but I would imagine that a conservative town of 2,000 is hardly a place where you can exercise personal choice with impunity. The undercurrents of conservative ideals are hard enough in a suburb of New York City.. I can only imagine what it might be like in a small town of religiously conserative people.. and you teach (?) French to their children.. hardly the sort of occupation for a wild and crazy, free wheeling spirit.. >> While I can see that your spirit has freedom here, I think that I >> recall that you were concerned at one point that the people in the >> town would see what you write here. > > This wasn't for religious reasons, this had to do with the habit >of youth to misinterpret, to not understand, to ignore context. >Communities are not "vacuums" thus they do provide a stage for us to act >upon. My stage is small and the peer group is near non-existent in the >realm of poetry, philosophy, and notions of psychology. Yes, there is >freedom here ... even the freedom to err. Lack of peers might be for a reason. I've had enough "Judgement" passed on me to last a lifetime.. >> My definition of "free spirit" doesn't include being concerned >> about what you say to the extent that I feel that you might be >> in this town. > > Clipped wings while in town, yes. Outstreached wings in the >skies of Cyberie (cyberspace). Is any small town different? I don't know if any small town is different.. I grew up in the Military environment, (Dad was in the Air Force.. ) and the closest that I get to a small town is a little niche in an area with 8,000,000 inhabitants.. with so much cultural noise that unless you actually kill someone, you are probably going to be ignored.. But I think that I would never have accepted a job teaching in a small town.. I've got more agressive parts of me that need reign.. but it seems that lately all that I spend my time doing is writing software.. I actually even do that on Saturday nights.. I'm getting old! Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:47:22 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == Subscription renewal, change in Psyber-l == MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, I have just discovered how to learn a little more about who is usefully = getting these posts on the list. Some may be just disappearing into black holes = in cs. I have set the list options to request a confirm response from non = posters. This will only happen very infrequently, and not effect those who post at= all. Non posting participants or even email collectors! are welcome, however a confirmation (all off list of course) will be required. I will give = people a long time to respond before they are cut off. They will be notified, and invited to rejoin if they are removed. My thinking about this is a) that we get a better feel for who is = *present*, which is in keeping with our purpose here. b) it is a little cheaper = each month if there are less futile postings. I am happy to host many many more participants quiet or non quiet. I will report later (months from now) on the impact of this. If this is all a little unclear, appended is the section from the manual. Walter ~~~quote~~~ 4.8. Subscription renewal =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D You can code subscription renewal into your lists. This is one method to keep lists "pruned down" and avoid having large lists that are actually distributing mail to only a fraction of the users. For instance, you may have a number of subscriptions set to NOMAIL for one reason or another. NOMAIL user(a) may have forgotten that he has a subscription; user(b) may have set NOMAIL instead of unsubscribing; user(c) may no longer exist because she graduated or no longer works for the service provider; you may have set user(d) to NOMAIL because of recurrent mail delivery errors. Requiring a periodic confirmation of subscriptions is therefore a reasonable course of action for large, non-private lists. To add subscription renewal, you add the following keyword to the header of your list: * Renewal=3D interval or * Renewal=3D interval,Delay(number) or * Renewal=3D interval,Delay(number),Probe where interval is a period of time such as Weekly, Yearly, 6-monthly, or something similar, and Delay(number) is an integer corresponding to how many days LISTSERV will wait for the renewal confirmation to arrive. (See "Renewal=3D" in Appendix B for more information on renewal and = delay periods; see chapter 4.6.2., above, for more information on the "Probe" parameter.) Note that you can have multiple interval parameters; again, see the entry for "Renewal=3D" in Appendix B for details. The confirmation request mailing asks the subscriber to send the command CONFIRM listname back to LISTSERV. If the subscriber does not do so within a certain length of time, LISTSERV automatically deletes the subscription. The default delay time is 7 days. If you wish to use the default delay time, it is not necessary to code ",Delay(7)" into your Renewal parameters. Note: You may wish to increase the delay time to accommodate users whose subscriptions expire over holidays (such as the Christmas/New Year's week) in order to avoid accidental deletions. Also, be aware that confused subscribers can and will send the CONFIRM command back to the list, rather than to LISTSERV. LISTSERV's default filter will catch these commands and forward them to the userid(s) defined by the = "Errors-To=3D" keyword.=20 It is possible to waive subscription renewal for certain users (such as list owners, editors, redistribution lists, etc.). In order to do this, simply issue the command [QUIET] SET listname NORENEW FOR net-address to LISTSERV. It is most advisable to do this in the case of redistribution lists, as they broadcast the renewal notice to their users, who a) cannot renew the subscription and b) become very confused when they see the notice, often sending "what does this mean?" mail to the list. You can also issue the CONFIRM command for a subscriber: [QUIET] CONFIRM listname FOR net-address Note that "active" users of the list (that is, people who post regularly to the list) will never be required to renew their subscriptions, nor (if subscription "probing" is enabled) will they ever be sent the passive subscription probe. LISTSERV presumes that such users have valid addresses and does not require a renewal confirmation from them. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:35:47 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kataryn Subject: ~~Walter Needs A Healing Circle ~~ Walter has said: [I think Walter is still searching] > I search for a word that > means sadness and love. >Perhaps we will all resonate to the same mood. >Is resigned & accepting also included? > > >Walter ^~^~^~^~^~^^~^^~^^~^~^^~^^~^^^~^^^^~^^~^~^^~^^^~^^^~^^^^~^^^^~^^^~^^^ ~~~~~W A L T E R N E E D S A H E A L I N G C I R C L E ~~~~~ In the midwest plains, as a child, growing to impressions of the "God Fearin Bible-Belt" sometimes the only diversions were the circuit evangelists, that pitched their tents, and put on some of the best God Praising, Hell and Brimstone Warnings, and Surely You Best Get Saved Tonight, extravaganzas know to the rural plains. The finale^ was the healing ~~~ as all waited breathlessly, to see whom, of their neighbors and friends, might receive the healing energies that night. And Praise Be ~~~ sometimes it happened! However, when the tents were folded, and the stars were on their way to the next small town, there was a gathering of those of "healing" nature", who would gently suggest that the non- healed of the tents, attend their Sunday evening healing circles. My grandmother's healing hands, were well know through the region, with her soft voice always advising ~~~ "It is the Lord that heals ~~~ but when we have gathered here togeather, our combined energies, just sort of help him a bit". That person, that was, for that moment in time, the focal point of the healing, was positioned in the middle of the healing circle. When those, who had gathered togeather, combined their positive energies ~~~ wonders of wonders often occured. Healings occured ~~~~ No one questioned why ...... it just was! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We members, not of the DreamEvent, have been feeling the healings occuring here. Most appear ready to move on ... to sing new songs... Robert has been forgiven and certainly is again ready to delight or dismay with his poetry. Wilber, Hoon, Charles, Dolores, Sheryl, Simon, and others, expressions have been clear and kind. Marie still needs much assistance, to stop rejecting herself, but her words are hopefull. JimC and Rey have brought forth many suggested pathways, as have Dolores and Sheryl, {with an occasional toss in, from this whimsical writer}. ~~~~ Now, I would like to suggest we concentrate on Walter's healing. The facilitator, that dared to be a participant. Walter is saying something to us all ~~~ "A word for sadness and love?" ~~~ " Is resigned and accepting also included?" Walter, I feel your need for healing, more strongly than any other person on this list. I feel that your closing of the DreamEvent is so necessary now. Perhaps you need to have everyone involved say to you in unison..." You cared" ~~~"we understand your disappointment, perhaps more than any other person" ~~~"You're Ok...It's OK " ... " We all still care.." And perhaps one of the finale's might be joining into a healing circle, with Walter in the middle {Not JimC's Hub, for this moment in time...Just Walter} and whisper gently "We Are All Accepting ~~~ Let The Resignation Go" Walter ~~~~~~~ I feel one of the words for sadness and love, just might be the word ~~~Healing~~~ Let the poets flow, for this is not my poetry ~~~ only my humble suggestion ~~~~ In Light ~~~ Kataryn _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:47:39 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: ~~Walter Needs A Healing Circle ~~ In-Reply-To: <199705291935.OAA05147@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kataryn, all Thank you. I will be as open to this as I can be. =20 Let me tell you about last night. First some background. On the weekend coming back from our holiday home, Kate & I were talking = about our spiritual isolation. Perhaps Walter need a church! She had been in = a fairly fundamentalist one once when she went through a hard time, years = ago. The thought of rejoining that is not 'right' for here, and not for me, I = am sure that some on the list would really understand that. I thought of a very = liberal and small Quaker church that meets in Christchurch, some of the best = people I know here go there -- also my ex wife, which puts a damper on it, but = does not exclude it. These were fleeting, non-serious thoughts, a gentle = bubbling. =20 The 'church' I belonged to for 13 years, was psychodrama , it was my = 'healing circle' and it was regular sustenance. I have been out of that for 5 = years or so, though I have just re commenced writing my thesis, to complete being qualified as a psychodramatist. Psychodrama ceased to be 'right', for = some known and unknown reasons. I see it now as a cult, I contributed to that= in the sense that it was a 'professional' organization, not a church. Still, = the healing circle, that it was for me is gone. Stuart was part of that = psychodrama movement, and also left it, so was Kate. With Stuart's death there is = more love and sadness flowing around, less of a circle. On the rebound after psychodrama I got involved with some Christchurch = Jungians. In fact tonight, at 5.00 I will be at a review of the training school = they run. I do a little bit of training in the course they run. I am part of the = 'core staff'. However I am not 'in' the group. I became aware of some ethical problems with one of the other trainers, which had also affected me, and = in raising that, was unsuccessful in reaching a resolution for me. I also = realised that the 'organization' was a one person band when it came to power. = Still, these 'human' factors have not totally alienated me. I continue to go to = some gatherings. Last year there was a workshop of the various 'clinical = members' and core staff of the training org. on the topic Psychotherapy and = spirituality. I shared there that coming to those meetings was my closest thing to = being in a church. It was obvious that the sustenance for any spirituality was = lacking in my life. I have a sense that the 'review' tonight is more a gathering of= some disgruntled members, I thought I'd go, I feel resigned to there not being= a good resolution. Last night . . . Wit a 'what the hell' attitude, Kate & I went to hear a speaker at the = Town hall. A Barry Brailsford, a local man who has written many books about = the Maori, and who I recall from 25 years ago when he was a teacher trainer. = He now has long gray hair and a beard, and speaks of a 'Nation' that was here = before the white people or the Maori people, a nation called: Waiatah (sp?) = (water carriers) a nation of 200 peoples of many colours more than 2000 years = ago, whose existence will 'soon' be confirmed archaeologically. A nation of = peace and love. He had some inspirational stories, of amazing synchronicities = in his life. Kate bought the book: Song of the Stone. He had a circle of new = age followers, and I am sure they meet, while he is not in town too, he has = moved from Christchurch. So here is another synchronicity Kataryn, while you = were writing about the meetings of the =20 > circuit evangelists, that pitched their tents, and put on some of the = best > God Praising, Hell and Brimstone Warnings, and Surely You Best Get > Saved Tonight, extravaganzas know to the rural plains. I was at a new age equivalent right here! Afterwards Kate & I went for a coffee and reflected on our lack of = belonging to 'healing circles'. On my side I realised that I do have a very *strong* = sense of my path. I was clear that it is *not* Waiatah, and that the moves = away from the various tempting options including the difficult psychodrama and = Jungian ones have also been part of moves onto my own path. In fact my sense of = what is 'right' for me is very crisp. It comes strongly 'via negativia' (sp?) by knowing what is *not* right, and that is OK! I am not really judgmental = of people on other paths, though I can be somewhat cynical and scathing at = times, like whispering to Kate that I hoped the way to Waiata was not by tickets through a gate to the comet. =20 Very clear to me is how much I value this Psybernet project. It is a = healing circle, and what is 'temenos'? A healing circle, and yes I need one! = The DreamEvent was the strong in its energy of this kind, I feel it here = right now too. =20 I must go. I will return to some of the specifics in your post Kataryn. Walter =20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:52:57 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Phil Houtz Subject: Let me introduce myself Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Alan Watts suggested that striving too hard for unselfishness is itself an act of selfishness. So forgive me for blundering in here selfishly--I'm here to publicize my Popular Psychology site at the Mining Company. (see the lurid sig below) Let that be a point of departure, however. My personal spiritual quest began with Herman Hesse many years ago, and has moved through mysticism to more traditional Christianity. I'm an inadvertent freelance writer and have found myself struggling with bitterness over "doing what a man's got to do." One morning at 2:00 am, while operating a newspaper tying machine, I had a *kensho* experience. Instead of seeing my situation as bitter, it dawned on me that this was "Right Livelihood." I'm reading everything zen I can get my hands on nowadays--not to abnegate or syncretize my path, but to make it richer. (And what could be more zen than the book of Ecclisiastes?) Now I'll listen for a while. ===================== Got a primal urge? Visit the Mining Company's *Popular Psychology* site and find out more about primal therapy. http://popularpsych.miningco.com Phil Houtz Writer, web designer, photographer Media Creek: http://www.rain.org/~phoutz _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:43:45 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil, At 17:52 1997-05-29 -0800, you wrote: >I'm reading everything zen I can get my hands on nowadays--not to abnegate >or syncretize my path, but to make it richer. (And what could be more zen >than the book of Ecclisiastes?) > I'm just reading Lawrence Shainberg=B4s Ambivalent Zen: One man's= adventures on the Dharma path. It is very amusing. I recommend.=20 Best regards Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:49:04 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: ~~Walter Needs A Healing Circle ~~ In-Reply-To: <3384FC09.C29@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kataryn, I'm home from a very interesting evening, as you can imagine, reviewing the Jungian organization. A healing circle in its own right. It seems that there are three aspects to the org. Training, clinical team and the associative aspect, the club ~ not unlike here. I am involved, sustained by it to some extent, unsure if it is the *right* circle for me . . . ~~~ > Walter, I feel your need for healing, more strongly than any other > person on this list. I can accept that, both as your feeling and as a need for healing in me. I don't want to make comparisons with others though. > I feel that your closing of the DreamEvent is so > necessary now. In this I feel a little misunderstood, not just here by this comment. (I say this blaming anyone, just some frustration) It is in *this* list I experience a variety of feelings, and while they have a history, they are in the present. Well, slightly in the past now, as I agree we have turned a corner, I have named it a plateaux, it has also been called an interregnum, that fits. There is closing in that. In psychodrama we have a time of 'sharing' after a drama, and I guess my searching for words to capture my feeling was my sharing, perhaps revealing more of my own struggles. > Perhaps you need to have everyone involved say to you > in unison..." You cared" ~~~"we understand your disappointment, > perhaps more than any other person" ~~~"You're Ok...It's OK " ... > " We all still care.." I am taking in the warmth you express, and wish for. I do wish to be understood, and there is that note in your words that takes this back too far to the DreamEvent, about which I have a great delight, and not a disappointment. I am not really disappointed that I feel frustration here at times. And I feel OK even in deep struggle here. > And perhaps one of the finale's might be joining into a healing circle, > with Walter in the middle I am pleased to follow your instructions and stand there, accepting too Susan's hat and Dolores prompts. Sheryls invitation to share more. > {Not JimC's Hub, for this moment in > time...Just Walter} and whisper gently "We Are All Accepting > ~~~ Let The Resignation Go" I felt a shift from resignation to trusting, even with=20 flaws . . . > Walter ~~~~~~~ I feel one of the words for sadness and love, just > might be the word ~~~Healing~~~ Yes . . . It is hard to feel it fully . . . though I agree your word is a good one, wounded healer fits for me . . . Can I trust This psyber circle? That it will do its work? That it is authentic? That I won't need to do all the work ~~~ I certainly trust I am not doing it now, I feel Kataryn's initiative and trust that. > Let the poets flow, for this is not my poetry ~~~ only my humble > suggestion ~~~~ Good enough poetry if you ask me. > In Light ~~~ Can I trust that Shadow is ok too? Can I accept the shadow in the group, in others? ~~~ How am I doing? Am I too resistant? If I were leading this 'group' I would think: He's going to try & get out of that circle, but he's not done yet! Oops . . . I wont lead . . . just relax! Let it flow around me for a bit. Definitely someone else *is* going to get into that circle after me! I'm still in it, even though I a going to add a few cognitive notes.=20 ~~~ In my rl: In my last post I said that I thought the leader of the jungian group was a one man band. What came out tonight was that it is true, but it is hard to stop being mother until the kids are grown up! AND it is true that she has a consistent philosophy and vision for the group, which is not sufficiently grasped, for it to be diluted by more democracy. I am appreciating the circle here in cyberspace. I want one out there, in rl. I want to combine Psybernet with some more on the ground rl circles. Yearning. Want to get it right for me. Thanks, Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:53:44 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: ~~Walter Needs A Healing Circle ~~ In-Reply-To: <339338ab.5084711@smtp.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > (I say this blaming anyone, just some frustration) =20 Should read:=20 (I say this *not* blaming anyone Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:30:29 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: ~~Walter Needs A Healing Circle ~~ In-Reply-To: <338f56c3.32250704@smtp.es.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter ; all At 11:47 PM 5/30/97 GMT, you wrote: > >The 'church' I belonged to for 13 years, was psychodrama , it was my 'healing >circle' and it was regular sustenance. I have been out of that for 5 years or >so, though I have just re commenced writing my thesis, to complete being >qualified as a psychodramatist. Psychodrama ceased to be 'right', for some >known and unknown reasons. I see it now as a cult, I contributed to that in the >sense that it was a 'professional' organization, not a church. Still, the >healing circle, that it was for me is gone. Stuart was part of that psychodrama >movement, and also left it, so was Kate. With Stuart's death there is more love >and sadness flowing around, less of a circle. When you refer to psychodrama as a "cult" it sounds so negative, do you mean it as such or do you mean it in a different way? I'm sorry that psychodrama is no longer the healing circle for you that it once was. For me it continues to heal and assist in my growth. I'd be interested in hearing of your known reasons for leaving psychodrama if you'd care to share them. I think I might understand a little of what you mean when you say the sadness and love flowing around because of your friend Stuart's recent death. One of my first trainers in psychodrama died from AIDS a little less then two years ago and I'm still feeling the sadness at his loss, but I see and hear myself doing and saying some of the things he use to teach me when I was first becoming involved with psychodrama, and I feel like he's still with me. > >On the rebound after psychodrama I got involved with some Christchurch Jungians. >In fact tonight, at 5.00 I will be at a review of the training school they run. >I do a little bit of training in the course they run. I am part of the 'core >staff'. However I am not 'in' the group. I became aware of some ethical >problems with one of the other trainers, which had also affected me, and in >raising that, was unsuccessful in reaching a resolution for me. I also realised >that the 'organization' was a one person band when it came to power. Still, >these 'human' factors have not totally alienated me. I continue to go to some >gatherings. Last year there was a workshop of the various 'clinical members' >and core staff of the training org. on the topic Psychotherapy and spirituality. >I shared there that coming to those meetings was my closest thing to being in a >church. It was obvious that the sustenance for any spirituality was lacking in >my life. I have a sense that the 'review' tonight is more a gathering of some >disgruntled members, I thought I'd go, I feel resigned to there not being a good >resolution. > >Last night . . . > >Wit a 'what the hell' attitude, Kate & I went to hear a speaker at the Town >hall. A Barry Brailsford, a local man who has written many books about the >Maori, and who I recall from 25 years ago when he was a teacher trainer. He now >has long gray hair and a beard, and speaks of a 'Nation' that was here before >the white people or the Maori people, a nation called: Waiatah (sp?) (water >carriers) a nation of 200 peoples of many colours more than 2000 years ago, >whose existence will 'soon' be confirmed archaeologically. A nation of peace >and love. He had some inspirational stories, of amazing synchronicities in his >life. Kate bought the book: Song of the Stone. He had a circle of new age >followers, and I am sure they meet, while he is not in town too, he has moved >from Christchurch. So here is another synchronicity Kataryn, while you were >writing about the meetings of the > >> circuit evangelists, that pitched their tents, and put on some of the best >> God Praising, Hell and Brimstone Warnings, and Surely You Best Get >> Saved Tonight, extravaganzas know to the rural plains. > >I was at a new age equivalent right here! > >Afterwards Kate & I went for a coffee and reflected on our lack of belonging to >'healing circles'. On my side I realised that I do have a very *strong* sense >of my path. I was clear that it is *not* Waiatah, and that the moves away from >the various tempting options including the difficult psychodrama and Jungian >ones have also been part of moves onto my own path. In fact my sense of what is >'right' for me is very crisp. It comes strongly 'via negativia' (sp?) by >knowing what is *not* right, and that is OK! I am not really judgmental of >people on other paths, though I can be somewhat cynical and scathing at times, >like whispering to Kate that I hoped the way to Waiata was not by tickets >through a gate to the comet. > >Very clear to me is how much I value this Psybernet project. It is a healing >circle, and what is 'temenos'? A healing circle, and yes I need one! The >DreamEvent was the strong in its energy of this kind, I feel it here right now >too. > I'm glad that you feel the psybernet project is a healing circle for you and in some ways I don't understand how. Maybe you could elaborate a little more? >I must go. I will return to some of the specifics in your post Kataryn. > > >Walter > In for a little swim. Janell _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:07:14 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "James V. Dimmick" Subject: re missing for past week or so MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit had many machine problems and hope they are gone. regards to all. jim the elder _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:26:44 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: ~~Walter Needs A Healing Circle ~~ In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530193029.006f84b8@philly.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Janell, > When you refer to psychodrama as a "cult" it sounds so negative, do = you > mean it as such or do you mean it in a different way? =20 I am negative, I am sorry to say it, and I am still writing the thesis, so it is not a blanket judgment. I should not really say it like that, it is more anger and hurt than an objective view. =20 Leaving psychodrama took ages for me. But it was a big relief. I had been a 'trainee' for far too long, and the organization was so tight that i had all my friends, colleagues, clients intertwined in the pd 'community' as they call it here. 'Psychodrama people' or person is a word often used. It was also called a 'family'. When i left, there was pressure on me to 'stay' and criticism for 'isolating' myself. So you can see that it has some cultish elements. =20 I think the roots of that do go into the method itself, and the structures and modeling set up by Moreno, who had somewhat of a personality cult (as do so many geniuses) and not all of it may be their doing, but that of the 'followers' -- it does seem he put out the 'hooks' in a big way. =20 Interestingly enough, the jungian gp i am peripherally involved with has a strong ethos of diversity, and independent practice, and does not prescribe a 'method' in such detail. However there is a jung cult no doubt.=20 I think that there is more overt attention to projection and transference in the analytical schools. The projections and transference in the pd method are largely enacted *between* the participants and trainees, and the projection onto Director or the organization as a whole is not so readily addressed. We find our new 'social atom' in the psychodrama group and community, very healing, but i see it now as a life raft that has no provision for those who wish to go ashore. =20 > I'm sorry that > psychodrama is no longer the healing circle for you that it once was. = For > me it continues to heal and assist in my growth. =20 Yes, I am too critical, it was healing for me too, and the best learning i ever had! I use what i learnt every day, and the methodology of Moreno, especially sociometry, and the experiential research, such as i espouse to in this list, are great tools, and do go beyond mere professional tools, they are a way into spiritual growth. So no wonder it gets confusing. We join to learn a professional method, and we finish up in a 'church'. =20 > I'd be interested in > hearing of your known reasons for leaving psychodrama if you'd care to > share them.=20 There are more personal details, one was the break down of the rel with my 'primary trainer'. Actually it was not quite that, as i ended the rel formally, and correctly. But 12 years or so with one trainer with whom i had enormous transference, and still do. Great respect for, genius type, privileged to know him etc. I had to get away! i did it too, which many have not done, and i look back at them and see the inhibiting grip, for all its positive aspect. > I think I might understand a little of what you mean when you > say the sadness and love flowing around because of your friend Stuart's > recent death. One of my first trainers in psychodrama died from AIDS a > little less then two years ago and I'm still feeling the sadness at his > loss, but I see and hear myself doing and saying some of the things he = use > to teach me when I was first becoming involved with psychodrama, and I = feel > like he's still with me. I know the feeling. Stuart was someone who sruggled with these things in a way that I do, and thus a companion in the process. > I'm glad that you feel the psybernet project is a healing circle for= you > and in some ways I don't understand how. Maybe you could elaborate a = little > more? I pour out my thoughts and feelings. Not all of them, but a lot. I get response. I feel the metalife of the list, and its rel to other circles, especially Charles's magister-L, though i am not active there, i know that we are working hard towards building a process that can take us deep into our collectiveindividual soul. I just went to the web archives to search for something i wrote earlier on this but found this: : I think of this list as the psychodrama stage of the Internet. : Note though that while psychodrama in morenos wrds "explores : truth by dramatic means" here we use electronic and virtual means : 2 Dec 1996 21:24) - Re: Psybernet Focus.=20 I have opened mail here and laughed and cried many times. I have felt connected to larger forces of synchronicity here, magical interconnections. This 'circle' is not enough for me but what we have is 'right' for me. The search ~ patient wait, goes on. One thought strongly with me at the moment is to have a Psybernet circle of some sort, live, like the psybernet evening, that *also* uses the internet. I am not sure of its form or purpose, but it would be great to not feel *more* isolated than i do because on one around me shares this world where i fly to! I imagine it is much the same for others? love to hear. =20 Robert, it seems we are speaking here, once again of the themes that involve you directly, and which you have been writing abt, but not directly to you. These words are direct, and my guess is that you are more content with the distance between this circle and your other wld. Perhaps more out of necessity. Janell, thanks for yr interest. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:56:20 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: definition of poetry... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This from one of my favourite poets, Octavio Paz... Between What I See and What I Say Between what I see and what I say, between what I say and what I keep silent, between what I keep silent and what I dream, between what I dream and what I forget: poetry. It slips between yes and no, says what I keep silent, keeps silent what I say, dreams what I forget. It is not speech: it is an act. It is an act of speech. Poetry speaks and listens: it is real. And as soon as I say it is real, it vanishes. Is it then more real? --Octavio Paz (translated by Eliot Weinberger) (The Collected Poems of Octavio Paz, 1957-1987) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:38:20 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Re: ~~Walter Needs A Healing Circle ~~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, My wife, Maureen, and my son, Dustin, have gone to a city four hours distant where my son has a swimming examiner's course to complete. As a result, I get this place to myself until Sunday evening. I have delayed responding to this "thread" until now so that I could do so without "distractions". Walter, this is for you ... > I will be as open to this as I can be. Trust ... this place has some kind of magic that has allowed some of us to speak when habit and circumstance would normally kep us silent. I trusted and believed when you spoke with me about "bringing it to the list". Dolores must have trusted this place for more than a moment when in pain and we collectively "rocked her" in a healing circle last spring. Wilbur has trusted here as he shared his pain and anger. This list brings out the best in us as well as our shadows. This place is indeed a place for healing. > Perhaps Walter need a church! And that church would be filled with his presence, a church that perhaps may have room for more of us. Walter, the church is within. The church is "communion" ... "community" ... "communication" ... come within. > These were fleeting, non-serious thoughts, a gentle bubbling. And, as such, they deserve to be gentled with respect. > The 'church' I belonged to for 13 years, was psychodrama , it was > my 'healing circle' and it was regular sustenance. I have been > out of that for 5 years or so, though I have just re commenced > writing my thesis, to complete being qualified as a psychodramatist. Tasks undone. Moving back one step to leap forward. I too am adrift from any "church" ... the last church being a belief in being able to navigate the educational system to subversively provide young people with energy and direction. They sit there passively, waiting for bells to ring and for graduation. They sit drugged with tasks, television, music, alcohol, technology, and dreamlessness. For a while, I could pretend that in some small way "I belonged" to that church ... but the truth is that I have forgotten the "creed" and can no longer understand my presence within this "church". Yet, I stay to finish a task begun, a task undone. > Still, the healing circle, that it was for me is gone. Stuart was > part of that psychodrama movement, and also left it, so was Kate. > With Stuart's death there is more love and sadness flowing around, > less of a circle. Walter, is it possible that what it was is still what it is? Is it possible that the changes are not within the church of psychodrama? I would suggest that the changes are within you, a moving on (down, through, in, up), an evolution that was given physical expression with Stuart's moving on. > On the rebound after psychodrama I got involved with some > Christchurch Jungians. And on the rebound from the dysfunctional educational system, I got involved with the Internet and Jungian thought. It was this combination that led me here last year. It was easy to mistake this place as "the" place, another "church". Again, I looked outwards and searched for for a place for me. Again, I got reminded that I would find it within myself (thanks to the company here who prodded me into this awareness). This place of yours, Walter, was/is indeed a place of "temenos". > I also realised that the 'organization' was a one person band when > it came to power. Still, these 'human' factors have not totally > alienated me. I continue to go to some gatherings. Listen to these words, Walter. Are they speaking of the Christchurch Jungians or are they speaking of PSYBER-L? What are the parallels that come forward? What parallel feelings are evoked? You retreat and then return to some of the gatherings. It's an issue of power, that uncomfortable sceptre that often destroys more than it heals. These past months, I/we have heard your words questionning yourself and the roles/hats you wear. I wonder if there is indeed a possibility to be other than oneself here, to be separated from RL ... methinks not ... likely we bring our world, our cosmos with us. > Afterwards Kate & I went for a coffee and reflected on our lack > of belonging to 'healing circles'. On my side I realised that I > do have a very *strong* sense of my path. I ... ... and > that the moves away from the various tempting options including > the difficult psychodrama and Jungian ones have also been part of > moves onto my own path. Synchonicity again, Walter. I have a strong sense of "path", of calling. It too is boundaried by "negativia". From what I hear on this list, others also have this sense of path, this sense of being "drawn into", the sense of "fatedness". Moving away is indeed moving towards. > Very clear to me is how much I value this Psybernet project. It > is a healing circle, and what is 'temenos'? A healing circle, and > yes I need one! Thank you, Walter, for giving this to us/me. I will return with more to say to you to this "healing circle". I pray that my words serve with those of the others to aid in the movement towards "self-healing". Thanks for the "temenos" here of your building. Robert _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L