To: Walter Logeman Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9704" From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)" Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:46 -0400 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:31:36 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dan Randow Subject: my life and psybernet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello now after reading the swarm of posts I am reminded of why I lurk quietly in psybernet after an utterly blissful weekend, my first day at work has been hard work ~ which of the late projects shall I try to avert from disaster first? ~ which of the ignored responsibilities can I forget and which will come and get me if I don't do something ~ or shall I just do nothing I'm going through a little rough patch ~ it has seemed a particular indignity after spending four days in cloudless sun, sailing, fishing, swimming, playing with the kids in bush lined sounds ~ mmm something has to change here. I feel broken again already. Surely it doesn't have to be like this. As I write, psybernet has a little of the feel of a family for me ~ one that is present during my working day my despair wells up and I get some of the mirroring I need - even just from my words in front of me thank you for listening Dan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 04:04:40 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kataryn Subject: Re: NEW KID ON THE BLOCK :Synchronicity??? Hello Rey Blanco ~~~ I would be most interested reading your Attatchment, however it arrived, via the Netcom E-Mail program, in binary, and not as an attatchment. I do not know the computer solution to the configuration. I certainly would enjoy hearing more of your thoughts on "Synchronicity " Operates "slightly below the level of unconscienceness " Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ~~~ Interesting concept ~~~ Slightly ???? Kataryn _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:32:26 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Rey Blanco Subject: Re: NEW KID ON THE BLOCK :Synchronicity??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kataryn wrote: > > Hello Rey Blanco ~~~ > > I would be most interested reading your Attatchment, however it > arrived, via the Netcom E-Mail program, in binary, and not as an > attatchment. I do not know the computer solution to the configuration. > > I certainly would enjoy hearing more of your thoughts on > "Synchronicity " > Operates "slightly below the level of unconscienceness " > Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ~~~ Interesting concept ~~~ Slightly ???? > > Kataryn > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-LKataryn: Hi: This is Rey Blanco. Thank you for requesting some of my thoughts regarding "synchronicity." The two attachments were Word for Win '95 docs. The first titled "Amman" contains what I believe is a world view of some collective unconscious - collective consciousness. It contains a sonnet that I wrote in 1981 and published in 1983 in a regional poetry publication. What surprised me was that names of people and places seemed to form a sort of coherent persona. The conundrums of leaders and places that popped into the media seemed to collaborate into an interesting view of something that generic philosophy has dubbed a "nous." An example of a mathematic historical set in this "experimental writing" is White House Speakes Wright Nunn Tower Sunnunu. The interpretation would be "no one is perfect" (A Biblical type view). How these words (names were stringed are based upon how "synchronicity" imposed itself into the objective collective consciousness, the media. In this case, the political state of affairs had it that Bush tried to get Tower into power but the Senator Nunn did not allow it. Because Speakes was a Spokesman (get it?) at the White House during the Orwellian era the set of historical data in the repository (Jung) meant that there might be associative values (meanings). The basis for all the writing (poetry, I hope) is an attempt to interpret the WILL of the World in much the same way. There is too much to note here, but the draft (attachment) is a yoke of a specific category of synchronicity- Nominalistic irony. The second attachment is titled A CROSS IN THE SKY. This is for me a sacred memory that I cannot prove as no one else had witnessed it, I think. The draft is a brief account of a perfect cross that appeared in the sky which seemed to be the reflection of the moon from the sun and filled an openning in the clouds. It was not ambiguous. It lasted for at least 20 seconds. Prior "coincidences" seemed to prep me but I still was not prepared for it. But because of it, I feel I no longer need apparations, Orson Welles type displays of supernatural, etc. I simply now accept that an invisible Spirit lives and has the ability to fullfil all the promisses claimed from the Holy Scripts. In any case, after at least 25 years of focusing upon the goings on of so called "coincidences" my conclusion is that it is proof of the existence of a living God. Prove the existence of supernatural "synchronicity one proves the existence of God! So I believe. Sincerely, Rey P.S. (The attachments should also work in Word Perfect. If they do not, I will try to convert the files. Maybe somebody on this LISTSERV can help? _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 03:45:41 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: varieties of list silence In-Reply-To: <33774271.308796370@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yesterday I wrote: > I guess you understandably do not want to be part of "reactives > of yesterday" and I feel some reluctance in drawing attention to > them. What to do? They can be ignored or repressed, only to > come back at us overtly or covertly, consciously or > unconsciously. =20 Had a good long talk today with Kathryn with whom I co-lead f2f groups. We suddenly came to a point where we saw that we had "created" a situation in a group by advocating too much disclosure. We clarified for ourselves that containment of some things is a good thing. That the key is to know the difference between avoidance, denial, secrecy, repression and suppression and simply not disclosing everything for its own sake. Consciously containing certain matters is very valuable. As psychotherapists we do that all the time keeping our work confidential -- I'm sure the principle applies equally in most contexts. This is not repression. I wanted to add these thoughts to my comments from yesterday, simply because I experienced the worthwhile connection. =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 03:45:49 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: NEW KID ON THE BLOCK In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970331220015.00674bb8@mail.frontiernet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ken! Good to see you here. =20 > So right now I'll just say: Walter, check out where WE'VE been= and > seem to be going.=20 Will do and I will get back to that discussion. I have been writing, and thinking on the themes very fully all this time. The holiday reading was fruitful too. Your forum captured my attention and I read the whole discussion, and then posted . . . and went, Unfair! as you said. =20 > And I will say this, also: I'm a bit bewildered as to why = Walter > has such seeming animosity to Hillman's recent moves when in fact they = do > not seem all that different from the kind of thinking that goes on = here... > more later... Right, I have a LOVE hate relationship with Hillman. I also mentiond disasterous personal experience in therapy with a devotee, which i think had its roots in the hillman perspective. I am interested in mapping out my own position, which deviates from JH, but is indebted as well. I have an urge for ideological clarity in my mind. Anew developmet, I have usually wanted to understand other people's theories. Theorising is a little off topic in this list, and i have enjoyed my participation in your discussion, and will continue, if it goes on, is that the plan? It is hard enough to be fully present in this list, so being in utne will be a come and go affair, though i would reccommend it . . . at least the Hillman discussion, which is as far as i have ventured. I hope you are able to spend some time here, and that there is a good bit of cross firtilization. =20 w _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:54:56 -0500 Reply-To: jfcalder@easynet.om.ca Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: NEW KID ON THE BLOCK :Synchronicity??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------69BF40FB" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------69BF40FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rey Blanco wrote: > (The attachments should also work in Word Perfect. If they do not, > I will try to convert the files. Maybe somebody on this LISTSERV > can help? > Hi Rey, Kataryn, I've converted both files to rich text format (.rtf) which I believe is readable by most word processors. I could also save them as text only files however this would lose the formatting - and the formatting strikes me as an important contribution to the content. 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Logeman wrote: > > Unintentional, and obviously does not happen while i am "away" -- > which is a strange concept here anyway. On the whole I think it > would be better ifg there were a more even net without a hub -- > not sure why. In real life I lead a cross-functional team that administers long term disability benefits. I've found it easy to fall into being a hub, if only because there's a tendency for team members to position me there. The problem is that as a hub, I also become a bottleneck and can restrict communication between the team members. I'm not intimating that you are a bottleneck Walter, just that members seem (at least recently) more comfortable posting to you rather than each other. I would be more than happy to discover that this is a false impression on my part. > Well we are not software programs like Eliza! Also the my, and > the general conception of the psyche part is simplly a valuing of > some expression of depth . . . I have yet to read the other > post re politeness. > Sorry for not being clear. I didn't intend to imply you folks were software ... far from it. The lesson I took from Eliza is that, in a text only environment, one lacks sufficient context to be able to reliably discriminate fact vs. fiction when discussing interpersonal matters. In rl, my words are heard in the context of who I appear to be. EG. when a white man uses the work "nigger" it has a different meaning than when used by a black man. Same word, different context, different meaning. Given this ambiguity - how is it possible to have intimate conversation that does not lead to misunderstanding? Is this the trap that has befallen Psyber-L? > You are welcome, what is it you hope for here . . . how did you > find Psyber-L? > > Walter > I was looking for a mail list interested in discussing the impacts of internet communication on organisational learning and development. I found Psyber-L while poking about with Infoseek. I seem to have arrived here at a difficult time. Even so, I have stayed because there have been glimpses of warm hearts connected to subtle minds. There are too few places in my life where this combination is found and I'm reluctant to retreat. ...Jim > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:30:20 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: varieties of list silence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, I just wanted to let you know that I ran off with my wife and daughters for a few days of vacation.. I'm back.. and I'm looking forward to responding to the various threads that are going on, but I have about 350 messages to read first.. So be kind and give me a couple of days to get the answers together. (Same for you Delores..) Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:26:43 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Rey Blanco Subject: Re: NEW KID ON THE BLOCK :Synchronicity??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kataryn wrote: > > Hello Rey Blanco ~~~ > > I would be most interested reading your Attatchment, however it > arrived, via the Netcom E-Mail program, in binary, and not as an > attatchment. I do not know the computer solution to the configuration. > > I certainly would enjoy hearing more of your thoughts on > "Synchronicity " > Operates "slightly below the level of unconscienceness " > Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ~~~ Interesting concept ~~~ Slightly ???? > > Kataryn > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-LHello Kataryn: This is Rey Blanco. Jim was nice enough to convert files, but I am not sure that you are able to view the attachments. Rather than try to retype those drafts today I realized I forgot to address your "slightly below the level of UNCONSCIENCENESS. Slightly ???" Your sophisticated "Jungian slip" in itself is interesting. It can conjure considerations as to how a participant(s) can be grooved by archetypes. Yes, there is the possibility of this operation of "synchronicity" to control the conscience through the UNconscience. The pythagorean dunes of a collective unconscious might balance (yin-yangs) a variety of archetypes that impose their energies upon our souls. It is slightly below (or above) the state of conscious and because I feel it is a sort of probe (or prod) that JUDGES our mental and/or physical whereabouts so that it can manuever (orchestrate) the collective conscious (cc) via the Unconscious Collective (UC) then we are in fact talking about how it rubs with our conscience. In many ways it might prove alarming. If some "coincidences" are brought about say a Big Brother, advertising, institutions and similar categories then we ought to be alarmed, take note and sound the trumpets of warning. Those "coincidences" that are supernatural must be discerned as it is magic like (from our perception and rationale). The "entity" (which I think of as "Nous" > Macrocosmic "nous" > microcosmic ... Also Self, self .... Soul soul etc.) has been described by generic philosphy and many writers. In any case, the ability for any nous (intellect) to steer our conscience by utilizing the tool of synchronicity is for me a study of interest. What surprises me and those who have investigated these phenomenon is that it seems very smart. So smart that meanings seem to unfold into a mosaic even web like. Sincerely, Rey Blanco _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:07:33 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Heaven's Gate mirror URL Comments: To: NETDYNAM@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FORWARDED FROM IPCT-L by HooN; of potential interest to both netdynamics and psyberians...and wacky as all get out too. *** MIME-version: 1.0 Approved-By: Interpersonal Computing and Technology Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:59:27 -0500 Reply-To: Interpersonal Computing and Technology Sender: Interpersonal Computing and Technology From: Interpersonal Computing and Technology Subject: Re: Heaven's Gate To: IPCT-L@LISTSERV.GEORGETOWN.EDU From: Raleigh Muns [snip] Try the excellent mirror of the entire Heaven's Gate site at: http://atlas.comet.net/~gus/heavensgate/ Librarian's caveat: this mirror site has apparently had some of the hidden "meta" tags modified from the original. Meta tags are used to imbed text referred to by many of the web's indexing programs for their search engines (e.g., Infosee, Yahoo!, etc.). The original site had interesting terminology in the source code that may not be in this mirror site. Otherwise, it looks like a clean port of the original files (including German translations of the transcripts of Heaven's Gate videos!). Bonus site: The site used for Heaven's Gate's commercial activities is still reachable (for how long?) at: http://www.cris.com/~font/ -Raleigh Muns ; srcmuns@umslvma.umsl.edu [snip] _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:45:32 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events In-Reply-To: <332A1DA4.7A2D@sk.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert,=20 As I read Charles's post and your response . . . I see the central moment of abandonment and the tipping over of the cauldron in the DreamEvent. The wound of that old list continues here . . . I don't think we are dealing with the past -- this is now. What is needed to heal the wound . . . to find the flow and openness that we have known? I find the post I am responding to here and others do not do it, despite your efforts. I think I have also made posts that are somewhat "hollow" as Charles has termed it. Posts which carry on as if the cauldron is upright, when in fact there is a searing wound. With respect to the particular wounds on this list many of us are silent, we have tried our best to speak but we miss . . Perhaps it is not our silence . . . In this post . . . and I do want to address you . . . you make some good points. I particularly like the clarity when you say rl is primary. Nevertheless there is a brokenness here in our cyberspace, the words do not go to the heart of that . . . the rest then fades . . . Charles wrote a detailed summary of events within which there was a central strong acknowledgment of a violent cut. I think there is a silence in your post about that that is matched by a silence in response, your trust is not misplaced, there is an authenticity in the silence. What can I say? How can we make a healing? . . . how can "temenos" be built?=20 Are there stories? Principles? Ethics? guidelines? Personal sharings that will assist us here? I am asking all of us . . . Walter Sieur de Cyberie , On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:55:16 -0800 Sieur de Cyberie wrote, in a post entitled: "Re: of list silences and dream events" : > All, >=20 > I just finished re-reading Walter's post of March 2nd called > "life and death" and his last post "grief". What is it about this > virtual space that allows us to be able to be so trustingly open? What > is it about this space that brings both tears and smiles? I still ache > for a brother lost to the darkness of his soul, the darkness in his = soul. > He couldn't stand up to the frightening shadows. I, it seems must = tackle > these shadows. And, it appears that I must do so in public, in this > place; trusting that those who speak and those who listen are going to = be > authentic in their anger, their pain, and their compassion; trusting = that > this is okay. Charles, I am ready to begin. >=20 > > When the Dream Group started, seventeen people committed themselves > > to work together in an astonishingly frank and forthcoming way to > > explore their own and each others' dreams -- not always the most > > comfortable of activities, and one which necessarily takes place > > under the twin stars of vulnerability and trust. >=20 > Yes, I agree with this ... there was a necessity for trust > because of the baring of inner processes, unconscious processes. As I > and others dropped the cloaks of pretense, of distance, we became very > vulnerable. The triggers these dreams set off filled the screens with > all manner of projections, of transference. And, in the process, the > shadow within each was given a voice. Who was watching and noting the > transference and counter-transference that arose ready to expose and > examine these things from the swamplands of soul in which shadow lives? >=20 > > Among the seventeen, however, there were three whose life > > situations were particularly precarious -- >=20 > I wonder at this Charles. Only three? Can we truly see behind > the screens to know this? How can we define precarious? Would not > "publically authentic in their flawed humanity" be perhaps a more > accurate modifier? >=20 > > Stuart, who had recently been diagnosed > > with a serious form of cancer, >=20 > I re-read his posting of his dream. He was a powerful force = even > in his silences, silences imposed by his health ... his presence was = felt > through the silence which was not heavy. I wish I could say more but = the > spectre of his finality is mixed with that of my brother ... >=20 > > and Marie and yourself, who were dancing the > > strange and compelling dance known as "a love affair in cyberspace". >=20 > Like the host of others amongst us who have felt the magical > temenos that builds between two souls, Marie and I engaged in this = dance > of spirit. We dared to break polite convention by presenting the > phenomenon to the PSYBER-L community as a way of looking at another = face > of this medium and of relation within this medium. Moving to the > DreamEvent following this sharing of relation, of looking at it as part > of the psyche of Cyberie, of cyberspace, we brought also unknown things > that would colour much of our words and the understandings of others > towards our words. >=20 > > many opened their dreams and the hidden recesses of > > their psyches into the containment of the group >=20 > And with the sharing came personal reactions and = interpretations. > Some of those interpretations came with assumptions and of course with > unconscious material that was triggered and filtered. A dangerous = dance > of dream carefully maintained within the hands of the guides for the > event. >=20 > > In all this, we also held in a very special regard our three > > tightrope walkers: Stuart, whose Handel dream among others had > > all the hallmarks of a "big dream", and Marie and yourself. >=20 > And the cauldron within which we were contained peeled away > layer upon layer of artifice. The duality of relation that Marie and I > represented was also a duality that went unrecognised between on-line > life and off-line life, between the archetypal anima and animus, = between > transerence and human relationship ... and for me, between my virtual > love for a woman and my love for my wife ... she ceased to exist for = the > event for all but Marie and myself who maintained off-list dialogue > throughout the event until my departure. Tears were shed for one, but > not for the other. >=20 > To awaken to the pain of abandonment in the eyes of one who has > committed to relation, a commitment of many, many years forced me to = face > the truth that RL and Cyberia are not the same. RL takes precedence. >=20 > > We prayed for you, if I can put it > > this way -- prayers not necessarily spoken, >=20 > Nor heard. >=20 > > We hoped, we feared, we wishes you every blessing in what seemed > > to us profound and potentially tragic circumstances in which great > > nobility might nevertheless be forged. >=20 > And this is where I fell apart ... which nobility? To remain = by > my lady's side? Which lady - for they both are sacred beings, very > different in their beings - as different as is the domaine in which I > know them? So, I chose ... a choice that gave my loss as well as > salvation. I lost my place in the DREAM, I lost my place in CYBERIE, I > lost my relationships within the cauldron of the "game", I lost Marie, > and I lost much of myself. Yet I gained as well. I gained the will to > remain present in my real-time world. I re-gained a shared dream that > now spans decades with my wife. I salvaged family both present and > future. The spectre of my brother again rises in front of me. He lost > his wife, his family ... and now, his life. >=20 > Charles, I will carry on with this at another time. I will > honour your feelings and finish this. It is what I owe you as a = brother > and a poet. >=20 > Robert de Cyberie >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:26:09 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Reality Whispers [Was: Re: (fwd) Re: Division theory ~~~Jim;~~~Reality Whispers ~~~] In-Reply-To: <3341DF33.446D@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim & All, > In real life I lead a cross-functional team that administers long term > disability benefits. I've found it easy to fall into being a hub, if > only because there's a tendency for team members to position me there. > The problem is that as a hub, I also become a bottleneck and can > restrict communication between the team members. I'm not intimating > that you are a bottleneck Walter, just that members seem (at least > recently) more comfortable posting to you rather than each other. I > would be more than happy to discover that this is a false impression on > my part. I thought of this as I conducted a rl gp over the last three days. I was not the hub there . . . and when it tended to happen I would sugest, at times, that the person address someone who it was the more appropriate recipient . . . However the things that cause bottle necks in rl are not present here we can all speak at once to anyone we like and there is no chaos as there would be in a rl situation. Time is likewise not restricted, so we are in a different envionment. Perhaps it works the same way here as in the rl situation, more by habit than structual necessity? =20 Some posts get responses from *many* people, others do not, IMO it is to do with the psychological undercurrents, what is going on in the list, perhaps at levels that none of us are aware of. Sometimes becoming conscious of that is like an AH,ha experience . . . =20 =46or all that I would like to take this opportunity to encourage people to think who on this list they may fruitfully address, or to address *new* threads to All, or to nonone at all! ~~~ That there is a bottle neck is to the point though, a restriction in the flow, may well be true, and my post just a moment ago I think addresses that directly. There i called it an authentic silence . . . not quite the same as a bottleneck. > a > text only environment, one lacks sufficient context to be able to > reliably discriminate fact vs. fiction when discussing interpersonal > matters.=20 This is an interesting discussion . . . I recall discussion on this theme here . . . you may like to look at this post and the ones around it: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=3Dind9604&L=3Dpsyber-l&P=3D2= 8975&D=3D0&H=3D0&O=3DT&T=3D1 I have written a short paper on this theme: http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/ps12.htm ~~~ > I seem to have arrived here at a difficult time. =20 I trust we can make some form of breakthrough. > Even so, I have stayed > because there have been glimpses of warm hearts connected to subtle > minds. There are too few places in my life where this combination is > found and I'm reluctant to retreat. Thanks,=20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 09:56:23 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter wrote: At 11:45 AM 4/7/97 GMT, you wrote: >Robert, > >As I read Charles's post and your response . . . I see the >central moment of abandonment and the tipping over of the >cauldron in the DreamEvent. The wound of that old list continues >here . . . I don't think we are dealing with the past -- this is >now. What is needed to heal the wound . . . to find the flow and >openness that we have known? > I wasn't around when the dream event took place so I'm not quite sure what wounds you're referring to, but some recent words could easily have hurt or been misinterpreted (I'm assuming they weren't meant to hurt). I find it much more difficult to respond to words in this environment without the non verbals of the rl world to help me understand what the speaker is trying to deliver. >I find the post I am responding to here and others do not do it, >despite your efforts. I think I have also made posts that are >somewhat "hollow" as Charles has termed it. Posts which carry on >as if the cauldron is upright, when in fact there is a searing >wound. With respect to the particular wounds on this list many >of us are silent, we have tried our best to speak but we miss . . > > >Perhaps it is not our silence . . . > >In this post . . . and I do want to address you . . . you make >some good points. I particularly like the clarity when you say >rl is primary. Nevertheless there is a brokenness here in our >cyberspace, the words do not go to the heart of that . . . the >rest then fades . . . > I agree that rl is primary and I feel that the anonymity of this environment creates almost an unreal atmosphere, which for some almost seems to say anything goes. I don't agree that "anything goes" and I'm not sure how many would admit to that, but the behavior seems to indicate it. >Charles wrote a detailed summary of events within which there was >a central strong acknowledgment of a violent cut. I think there >is a silence in your post about that that is matched by a silence >in response, your trust is not misplaced, there is an >authenticity in the silence. What can I say? How can we make a >healing? . . . how can "temenos" be built? > >Are there stories? Principles? Ethics? guidelines? Personal >sharings that will assist us here? I am asking all of us . . . > > >Walter > Personally, I'm very slow to share much in this environment because of the safety, once or twice I have shared and it's either been ignored or misunderstood by some or others have tried to put their interpretation on my experience which I found somewhat patronizing or condescending. Since then I've gone with the premise of "once bitten twice shy" and I know in many cases that's contributed to keeping me silent where in a rl group I might have taken the risk. It's interesting (to me) that Robert found it easier to share in this environment for the same reasons that I find it difficult. It just goes to show how we all view the world with OUR OWN perspective, even if there are some common elements. > Risking some. Janell _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 10:46:21 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: August Goforth Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events hi - this is all too overwhelming for me and I seem be in a land that is having no significance for me - after observing for a fortnight, everyone seems to be conversing in arthurian language that is more courtly and poetical than down to earth (from my perspective). It all seems very connected through the group's participants, but the group mind isn't mine. Is it possible to arrange not to receive any more mail, i.e., take my name off the mailing list? I would also be open to feedback about my comments. Sincerely, August Goforth _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 10:38:13 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events In-Reply-To: <970406104620_570953138@emout10.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" [snip] >seems to be conversing in arthurian language that is more courtly and >poetical than down to earth (from my perspective). [snip] >August Goforth, Your impressions are interesting. I'd ask you to reveal a little bit more of what your interests are and what you'd like to talk about. Are you a veteran participant in any other email lists? What makes for a positive, rewarding email list experience for you? What do you mean by *down to earth*??? *** Welcome! Kinda funny to say it before you (may) go... Psyber-L has quite a history. Judging from its diverse travels through that history, I can assure you that, although the list may be in an *arthurian stage*, it will eventually pass into something different. For my self, I do think of it as being on a *trip* but then I'm a hippie, probably not down to earth...oh well. =;^) Regards, HooN \\\|/// \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) -------oo00-(_)-00oo--------- | | | Stephen Calhoun | | hoon@apk.net | | http://junior.apk.net/~hoon | | | ----------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:20:42 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Bill Atwood Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events one using the name "August Goforth" ends with: > Is it possible to arrange not to receive any more mail, i.e., take my name > off the mailing list? your name never was on the mailing list. email address was. "i could be wrong" but i doubt it. > I would also be open to feedback about my comments. how about "wanna watch me pick my nose? eat the boogers?" > Sincerely, "i don't believe you" > August Goforth , Jonas Lore _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 13:16:57 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:56 AM 4/6/97 -0400, Janell wrote: > I wasn't around when the dream event took place so I'm not quite sure >what wounds you're referring to, but some recent words could easily have >hurt or been misinterpreted (I'm assuming they weren't meant to hurt). I >find it much more difficult to respond to words in this environment without >the non verbals of the rl world to help me understand what the speaker is >trying to deliver. Or willing to hear in response. Walter asked where my post about love came from. It came from what I saw was and is happening in this listserv. A bunch of people good with words, so good that they have been seduced by them, acting out the results of that seduction. Some have reached the end of the dance of words, some are still enthralled in the middle of it. Robert admitted that he was involved in an "on-line" relationship on this list, Delores and I attempted to point out to him that this sort of relationship wasn't the same as a full exposure relationship. We attempted to point out that the dangers of this sort of relationship were that it carried enough of a real relationship but would cause a lot of unfulfilled emotions on both sides of the equation. I believe that I wrote a message that the relationship stuff was causing problems in the list even then, and that I didn't intent to continue trying to get others on this list to see what I had already learned, but that I would simply let life take it's course and let those people learn what they needed to learn. Charles on the other hand seems to be totally immersed in the Dream Event, so much so that he's reacted with rage at the reality of Robert's realization that life on the screen is empty compared to life face to face. While I can indentify with the frustration that he has, that doesn't mean that I condone that idea that Robert "destroyed" the dream event. Dreams don't always reach conclusion, and have a lot to do with the starting point that was the basis of them. Robert made no secret where he was in his relationship, and even in real life this sort of involvement destroys group cohesiveness. I was particularly touched that Robert's wife is there with her arms to hold him in the time of his need. ( His brother's suicide ) I'm happy that he chose to maintain his primary relationship in light of his journey with online relationships. Perhaps he'll appreciate his wife more and choose not to be involved with online romance anymore. Either way, I don't think that the Internet is to blame, whatever issues that Robert has with the relationship with his wife where there before he came across the Internet, and unless he stares them "straight in the face" they will always be there. (But perhaps they are what makes his relationship work, I'm not here to judge. ) So, to the point of the silence, there are plenty of social mores (sp?) about discussion of these sort of things. The religious aspect was something that I had hoped to get into with Robert.. I don't know that it's silence so much as we have many people who have expressed where they are, and they group has reached a point where people need to reflect on that. Robert's statements to the effect that he wanted to work out his issues in the list followed by silence have troubled me, but I think that he knows what he needs more than I ever will. I was a bit perplexed by Delores request of me to break down the "meaning of life".. I don't know why, but on occasion I'm asked to break down the meanings of very complex things. Sometimes even religious ones. (Like what is the origin of the 7 Sins?) I was taken aback by the lack of sexual undercurrent in what Delores posted. Usually it's there and I recognize it and then ignore it, I couldn't find it this time.. No matter how much I tried.. It seemed that Delores reached the mental equivalent of the calm before the storm, life before the libido (sp?). I appreciate what Walter has said, and the numerous messages. I hope that from above you can see where the "love isn't words" message came from. The expression of the "psyche" is tantamount to a psychological statement of religion. Not that Science doesn't have it's only religious dogma as well. The thought that has occured to me that is that mastery of the anima leads to slavery of the animus, while master of the animus leads to slavery of the anima. Real freedom leads to slavery of both the anima and animus. Toward that end, the best metaphore that I've seen is the Yin and Yang, the enclosed circle with a white and black part. Both are parts of the whole, parts of the circle, but until you step back, you don't see the circle, all you see is the while and black parts halves, interwoven into each other. Or even notice that there are a multitude of circles.. Ideas are intoxicating, the more complex, the more tightly interwoven with reality, the more intoxicating, and the more valuable and therefore dangerous. I spent time at the "Museum Of Man" (aka, the Museum of Natural History) where they describe the origins of writing, and how the Scribes used textbooks to teach potential students that being a Scribe was the only thing in life that mattered. This struck all sorts of chords with me, how the idea of the written word would need to be sold as being more important than life itself, how the adherence of society to the written word would have to be done with the commision of falsehoods, just how any religion or cult is sold and embedded in society. I feel that what I'm working on will remove the requirement to learn the written word, the written word only being an anachonistic technology from ancient times of clay tablets and papyrus. Instead of "Reading is Fundamental", it will be "Reading is Anachronistic". The Internet is perhaps the dying gasp of an anachronistic technology. Some of us claim that this technology is the be all and end all of the technology that we have been seeking, but I see it only as the beginning, not the end. We can't express what it is to be human here as well as we can in real life, and with so much of the secondary communcations channels missing, we end up with stilted silences that can't be broken without emotional force. That's because this isn't a natural media for us. It's a contrivance. I spent the last few days down in Washington, DC, one of the places that I visited was where my father had been a few months ago, the Korean War monument. Inscribed on the wall is "Freedom is not Free." We have a freedom to share the written word with others that is unprecidented in the history of man. But at what price? How has this made life "better" for each of us? For me it has reduced ideas to the level of data, and created a monster that requires a great deal of my time which trys to take my attention from the realities of my life. The things that have value. Because I'm so intoxicated with the power of words, I need to remind myself that they aren't real. They aren't my life, and they aren't the lives of those around me, both in space, or in my time. These words aren't life, they are just a part of life. Life is more than can be expressed.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:18:02 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Friends, Marie, Robert, Walter, all... The conversations on a mailing list are a little like the conversations on a long train journey. I'm thinking specifically of the conversation that pianist Glenn Gould recorded on a trans-Canadian train, some of the people in his carriage or compartment or whatever being there from the beginning and staying to the end, others getting in part way across the country, or leaving, and so on. Even the shorter journeys were long enough for people to open up, to talk, and at times some of them would join strands of the conversation which had been ongoing for two days, at times certain themes would mutate because the individual who had steered them in one particular direction was no longer there, but others were still interested, though in different ways... Gould was a noted Bach specialist, and his interest in recording these conversations was that they resembled musical "counterpoint". In other words, he heard them as constituting a "music of ideas" -- a phrase which points up for those who were there just how close his intentions were to the kind of "glass bead game" -- itself described as a "virtual music of ideas" -- which we played on Psyber-L's sister-list, Group-L... I am trying to think how to describe the relationship between Psyber-L and Group-L for those who were not present. "Sister-list" is not entirely accurate, "child-list" would be closer, since it was composed of some members from both Psyber-L and Magister-L (it's two "parents"?) -- but was running simultaneously with both of them. In terms of the train analogy, it was as if some of the people in the compartment went off to the dining car for a while, and another train with another dining car ran at the same speed on a parallel track for the time supper took -- a science fictional stretch, this, not something that trains normally do -- and the two dining cars "docked" like two space-craft, and a third conversation which was both and neither the Psyber-L conversation "and / nor" the Magister-L conversation opened up. And then the trains parted again, and the dining car participants returned to their respective compartments... I think what is helpful about this analogy of the train is that it permits us to see the non-speaking participants. If we were indeed in a Gould-style train, we would *see* the silent as well as the speakers, and the dynamic would therefore perhaps include more attempts to include them, or a better sense of who was absent because they had gone to another compartment, or stepped off the train in one of those hour long station pauses to visit the station restaurant or make a phone call, or who were snoozing at a given point, or listening and smiling happily, or frowning and clearly disgusted... We are like, perhaps, *blind* participants in such a train, never sure how many people are in the compartment, knowing only how many are speaking at a given time... And slowly we will learn, how in cyberspace, this works, and be less prone to assume *whatever* about the silences of others: lurkers will eventually have a "clearer" space to lurk... I hope this analogy will be fruitful for some of you who have no particular interest in the Dream Event, or are in fact tired or disgusted with it or me... * On a healing note... As far as the "Dream Event" hurt which Walter speaks of is concerned, I for my part feel as though it is largely done with. My own long "Dream Event" post to Robert in particular articulated my grievance in that respect -- and grief indeed it was that I was expressing, and my grief for Stuart which had at long last permitted me to express it... I was largely satisfied, too by Robert's response, and if there are any further details to be sorted out between us, I think it likely that a private post or two back and forth will do the sorting. This sense of "receiving satisfaction" then allowed me, in my post shortly thereafter called "of list silences and dream events" -- nominally the beginning of this continuing thread -- to signal, I hoped, to Robert (without involving those of you who "joined the train" since the Dream Event) my own sense of the issues with these words of mine: > [One can be silent on list because one is...] > Saving a marriage by staying away from cyberspace for a while. > Talking with the wife. > One can be silent as one who does not hear the beloved's footstep > is silent -- silent within an anguish of listening. I hoped with the first of these remarks -- which came, you'll remember, in the course of a longish series of different reasons for silence on list, not a post "overtly" about the DE -- to let Robert know that I fully understood the priority that one might assign to a real life problem over a list one, and more importantly to a relationship of marriage and long commitment over a beautiful and delicate and inspirational and indeed perilous blooming of parts of the psyche which the longer and more committed relationship does not appear to include... and with the second to indicate that I also think that the "other" in the perilous blooming, in cyberspace exactly as much as in any other part of real life, deserves full consideration, because that other is, like anyone else in "cyber" or "real" space, someone who can indeed be hurt -- or whose hurts can be healed. It was exactly this dichotomy which Robert addressed in his response to my own words in my recounting of the Dream Event -- I had written: > We hoped, we feared, we wished you every blessing in what seemed > to us profound and potentially tragic circumstances in which great > nobility might nevertheless be forged. and he replied: > And this is where I fell apart ... which nobility? To remain by my > lady's side? Which lady - for they both are sacred beings, very > different in their beings - as different as is the domaine in which I > know them? So, I chose ... a choice that gave my loss as well as > salvation. I lost my place in the DREAM, I lost my place in > CYBERIE, I lost my relationships within the cauldron of the > "game", I lost Marie, and I lost much of myself. Yet I gained as > well. I gained the will to remain present in my real-time world. I > re-gained a shared dream that now spans decades with my wife. I > salvaged family both present and future. I hope Robert caught these allusions of mine, and knew from them my high regard for his choice and the forces that compelled it, as well as my concern for -- and sense of betrayal on behalf of -- the "other", in this case, Marie. And while Robert chose at least in these words to focus on the reality of his own loss rather than on Marie's, he nevertheless spoke of her in terms which showed her high respect... and I cannot but conclude from this that he feels and honors *her* grief... and knows and accepts the part he played in it. From my side, then, I have managed to articulate my own grief / grieveing / grievance, and am at peace. I then wrote Robert privately, offering him my condolences on his own loss of his brother -- coming so soon after the loss of Stuart, which was also keenly felt by so many of us here -- and he responded: what remains between us, I think, is the lingering echo of a healing which has already to a considerable extent taken place. My caring for Robert, in other words, is slowly finding its feet again: my caring for Marie continues -- and my caring and respect for the Dream Event participants as individuals and as a group is extraordinary. I hope this post of mine will contribute further to the healing which is, I trust, at work on all sides... and I think it is a tribute to the list as a whole, to "lists" and "cyberspace", and to Walter, that such deep processes, both of hurt and healing, can and do take place here, on this long "train ride of the blind"... With best wishes, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://idt.net/~davehuge/ mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:09:40 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Bill Atwood Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events \\\|/// \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) -------oo00-(_)-00oo--------- | | | Stephen Calhoun | | hoon@apk.net | writes: | http://junior.apk.net/~hoon | | | ----------------------------- > For my self, I do think of it as being on a *trip* but then I'm a hippie, > probably not down to earth...oh well. =;^) what year were you born? are you old enough to be a hippie? is allan ginsberg a beatnick? was allan ginsberg a beatnick? is he a professor of english at brooklyn college? is he dying of liver cancer? , bill ( b. 1942: "never trust anyone under 55" (actually i have until august)) =================signal context switch===================== first time streets of yonkers waiting for greystone family inn grand opening celebration ribbonCutting speechMaking cakeEating eyeballs ping headsnod pong next time mt. tremper retreat space sunday morning wait for breakfast saturday workshop, bonnie and you saturday night two hour reading you you you you !!!!! shambala sun vs tricycle one worries about competition from the other dharma's not big enough for all? voice pings words pong last time bernie new book party intimate space, park avenue refinement wonderful sight to see bernie you ping he alan pong alan bernie ping pong ping pong pong ping you me then no ping pong maybe park avenue apartment space not so comfort pong ten directions ping as i would like me to believe pong ping pong ping as i leave you most graciously ping head nod pong me bye true gentleman of letters manifesting freely in myriads of situations early sunday morning rising found me thinking back on these "sighting ginsberg" times and came upon a keyword you used, realized the extent that it had empowered me to manifest the voice i finally found in cyberspace. word was "candor" and next came self/other egoMeltdown human condition...felt the grief, man. "cry, baby, cry. let your mother sigh. you're old enough to know better. so cry, baby, cry." beautiful thing to grieve one's death before their passing. several times since today that "candor" word's been the totem that's connected me to that sweet, sweet sorrow. just words now, but that's ok. world of words. world of feelings. world of finance. world of bamboo. wonderful to have had you in my world, professor g. thanks for the teachings. , bill ( "it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood a beautiful day for a neighbor would you be my... could you be my.. " one bright pearl... _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 14:03:46 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wilbur, all: Wilbur wrote a post today which covered many areas of great interest to me, and also opened up the possibility of my communicating with him about an aspect of my own writing on this list which has troubled him. Like Walter and no doubt others, I find Wilbur's posts frequently refreshing and insightful, and I'd like to respond both as to my own personal position and as to the far wider issues he raises. But let's deal with the "personal" concern first, and then get to the other issues. * Wilbur wrote: :: Charles on the other hand seems to be totally immersed in the :: Dream Event, so much so that he's reacted with rage at the reality :: of Robert's realization that life on the screen is empty compared to :: life face to face. Absolutely not. I approve and have always approved of Robert's realization that his continuing relationship with his wife required a shift in his relationship with life online. I hope I made that clear in my post this morning, and wish in a way that I had seen Wilbur's post before sending it -- perhaps I could have made it even clearer. My problem with Robert was (and I don't think there's much of it remaining at this point, certainly no rage or anger, not even pain, maybe still a little concern) that in finding he had "too many balls in the air" for his capacity as a juggler, he let one or two of them drop (his relationship with Marie, his relationship with the Dream Event) in a way that was -- perhaps inevitably, unavoidably, I too am not making a judgement -- hurtful both to Marie and to the Event, by which I *mainly* mean myself and at least some of the other participants. Part of this hurt, as Wilbur very wisely points out, was an inevitable consequence of the sort of affair which was going on, which struck me as perilous from the beginning, not because it was on the net but because it involved three people and their very real emotions. Part was that I felt he didn't manage the withdrawal in a way that took care of all the parties concerned, and Marie in particular: that he fumbled... > While I can indentify with the frustration that he has, that doesn't > mean that I condone that idea that Robert "destroyed" the dream > event. I need some paradox here. I don't think it destroyed the Dream Event, I think it destroyed the Dream Event. Let me try to explain. The Dream Event took place under the sign of "temenos", as does this list -- and temenos can serve as an alchemical cauldron: that is at least a major part of its importance. I think that *within the cauldron* of the Dream Event, Robert *upset the cauldron* of the Dream Event. That's all part of the learning-by-intensity-in-a-protected-space which an alchemical cauldron or sacred space or temenos is all about. And similarly, my post to Robert and this list was an attempt *within the cauldron* of this list, parent to the Dream Event, to *set right the cauldron* from the Dream Event by offering my rage into this cauldron. I do not "believe" my rage -- I do not think the *opinions* my rage would, as sheer rage, express, are accurate. My experience is that rage exaggerates, gets one small point right -- usually a point of justice, in my experience -- and then overdoes everything. On occasion, what I'll call "clean rage" does better than that, acts purely and simply as a purifying fire. But in general, I take it for granted -- thanks, Wilbur, for getting me to articulate all this -- that fiery emotions need to be honored and expressed -- preferably within a temenos -- so that they can dissipate, so that one can sift through the ashes and pick out the nuggets of diamond -- the justice insights -- formed and buried there. I think Robert's remarks to me, both on list and in private, in response to my public post about the Dream event and my private post of condolences, show that he didn't take this expression of mine amiss, that he was conscious throughout of the concern and goodwill that underlay -- though it was at times temporarily choked by -- the fire and smoke. * If I can hope that my previous post today and these words will have shifted Wilbur's perception of my earlier posts at least a little, I'd also like to get into the very fruitful discussion that his post brings up / continues, about the written word, mailing lists, and the future of technology. Wilbur wrote: :: I feel that what I'm working on will remove the requirement to :: learn the written word, the written word only being an :: anachonistic technology from ancient times of clay tablets and :: papyrus. Instead of "Reading is Fundamental", it will be :: "Reading is Anachronistic". The Internet is perhaps the dying :: gasp of an anachronistic technology. Some of us claim that this :: technology is the be all and end all of the technology that we have :: been seeking, but I see it only as the beginning, not the end. I think this is an important statement, and if I disagree with it it is only in the sense that I would like to add other strands to it, strands which have an opposing sense of the same issues to some degree, but which are offered, again, in counterpoint, not as refutations. It so happens that Lewis Lapham, the editor of Harper's Magazine, addressed the issues of the demise of print technology and the rise of electronic media in his editorial this month (April, under the title "The Spanish Armadillo") -- and that in doing so, he observed that the "new media" may have and suit audiences which are far more sophisticated in some ways than Fox television gives them credit for. He then went on to talk about the Glass Bead Game as a metaphor for cyberspace, and to cite me (hipbone@earthlink.net) as the person Microsoft might like to consult about this. Without knowing me. On the basis of one post I once posted on Magister-L. My work, like Wilbur's, has very much to do with the shaping of discourse in the next century, and the Dream Event was and remains and important part of it. That's why I was and am "totally immersed" in it -- or at least "deeply immersed", because there are many other aspects to my work running in parallel with the specifically dream-oriented part which takes place here: I dedicate my life, I immerse myself, I hope to learn and be changed. But it's also part of the reason I'm so concerned with "polyphonic discourse", with the many voices within each one of us (Charles' rage, for instance, and his after-the-storm rain-refreshed calm voice, too), and also with the many voices in our inter-personal understandings, Wilbur's voice in counterpoint to mine, mine to Robert's. That's why I'm working with Glass Bead Games, which allow a multitude of voices to be heard not as contradicting one another but as supplying different threads in a tapestry larger than the individual. That's why I'm excited that the Glass Bead Game allows voices which are not text, voices which are music, or mathematics, or image, as well as text voices... And that's also why I'm passionately involved with this list, read Wilbur's posts -- here and as it happens also on rec.games.design usenet group -- with interest and approval, even when I beg to differ. Again, Wilbur writes: > Because I'm so intoxicated with the power of words, I need to > remind myself that they aren't real. They aren't my life, and they > aren't the lives of those around me, both in space, or in my time. > These words aren't life, they are just a part of life. Life is more > than can be expressed.. Excellently put, Wilbur. I am a poet, first and foremost -- so words *are* my life in a sense that will not hold true for many other people: they are the acts I live by, as carpentry or computer programming or dance or healing may be the acts others live by, their vocations perhaps, their livelihoods in any case. And I profoundly and completely agree with Wilbur that words intoxicate, and that we need to have the power to disintoxicate and disentangle ourselves from them. My work as a poet has to do *both* with disintoxicating people *and* intoxicating them. Putting it very crudely: with disintoxicating them from advertising and "dogmatic" religion and unthought assumptions, and intoxicating them with the far more profound and interesting beauty and diversity of our common humanity. More subtly, perhaps: disintoxicating them from the power of language to blind them, to reintoxicate them with the power of language to give them sight... Words are my tools, and I am very good with them: I am a genuine craftsman in this respect. And rather than regretting the power of my words to gloss over much that is important and unsayable in what has been unfolding on the list -- though I certainly regret that to the degree that it takes place -- I would propose to Wilbur that it's only the control over words which I as a craftsman possess which has allowed me to temper and anneal my "mettle" -- steel of my soul -- in the alchemical cauldron I spoke of earlier. In my case, as a wordsmith, getting level-headed about my passion in my words -- formulating my rage so precisely that every last drop of it has been processed -- is precisely what the alchemy of transformation is all about. And I think, given the present sense of reconciliation I feel as far as my earlier rage is concerned, that it works. Let me say that again, another way. I would never post my rage-as-such to this list, I have never done so, and I do not intend ever to do so. What I posted was my considered-rage, a different animal. I did not post, in other words, until the meditative part of me was satisfied that I had "cleaned" my emotions -- both in my grief at Stuart's death, and in the crucible of writing that very long and carefully worded post -- to the point where they could be working material for myself and others, and not instruments of torture. To the extent that I failed in this, I too have "dropped the ball" -- to the extent that I have succeeded, Robert's recent conversations with me on and off list appear to bear witness. I too, Wilbur, would give emotions priority over thoughts if I was forced to choose between them. But I believe that a marriage of the two is called for, and that is what I am working towards -- in my rage and in my grief and in my work and in my art and in my philosophizing about cyberspace and in my posts, all my posts, to this list. With every breath. My best wishes and appreciation to you and yours, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://idt.net/~davehuge/ mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 00:02:01 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events In-Reply-To: <970406104620_570953138@emout10.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable August, To unsubscribe send a message with the words=20 SIGNOFF PSYBER-L=20 to the listserver, address: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM ~~~ You invited comment: That Athurian style ! You my be right . . . but it is not "everyone". I think it would be much better if you picked out one or two passages and commented on those, so that we are not all indited. What would be significant to you, what is your motivation for being here? Walter > hi - this is all too overwhelming for me and I seem be in a land that = is > having no significance for me - after observing for a fortnight, = everyone > seems to be conversing in arthurian language that is more courtly and > poetical than down to earth (from my perspective). It all seems very > connected through the group's participants, but the group mind isn't = mine. > Is it possible to arrange not to receive any more mail, i.e., take my = name > off the mailing list? I would also be open to feedback about my = comments. >=20 > Sincerely, >=20 > August Goforth >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 09:10:43 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Rey Blanco Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit August Goforth wrote: > > hi - this is all too overwhelming for me and I seem be in a land that is > having no significance for me - after observing for a fortnight, everyone > seems to be conversing in arthurian language that is more courtly and > poetical than down to earth (from my perspective). It all seems very > connected through the group's participants, but the group mind isn't mine. > Is it possible to arrange not to receive any more mail, i.e., take my name > off the mailing list? I would also be open to feedback about my comments. > > Sincerely, > > August Goforth > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-LDear August: How about THIS for Poetry?: GO FORTH you dumb fool and leave this land ... Only kidding, I had a few drinks. I work too hard to be "down to earth" all my life. It is a form of devoted drudgery and slavery. I know it is the pragmatic thing to do but I cannot help "letting some of it hang out" once in a while. Hope you stick around anyway. In any case, if you ever experience any "synchronicity" let me know, please. I do not speak for the group and get very few replies about this topic. They are many times concerned about compassionate issues and "ideologies" not my type of "poetic world views" nor "busting coincidences." Sincerely, Rey P.S. GoForth with good fortune! _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 09:40:49 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Rey Blanco Subject: Re: NEW KID ON THE BLOCK :Synchronicity??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kataryn wrote: > > Hello Rey Blanco ~~~ > > I would be most interested reading your Attatchment, however it > arrived, via the Netcom E-Mail program, in binary, and not as an > attatchment. I do not know the computer solution to the configuration. > > I certainly would enjoy hearing more of your thoughts on > "Synchronicity " > Operates "slightly below the level of unconscienceness " > Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ~~~ Interesting concept ~~~ Slightly ???? > > Kataryn > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-LHello Kataryn. This is Rey Blanco. I wonder if you still have any interest in "my thoughts or opinions" about "synchronicity?" From my point of view all my life seemed to be influenced by an "invisible" making use of things such as "synchronicity." After a while it seemed to be an embarrassment as it was being noticed by others. After they started to remark about it I tried to hide it, as if I could. It felt as though angels in the heavens "cared too much" for my needs, and even things I didn't "require." Even the media (radio, tv) popped into the picture as though speaking words for me. An example: A woman named Dolly attended a carpet store that I had serviced as a carpet mechanic. One day I entered and approached the counter and as I was about to announce "Hello Dolly" the tv blurted out with a commercial and those words came out just as my mouth openned to express just that. This might seem trivial, and can be pawned off as chance. Yet, even the late Dr. Jung noted that synchronicity is carried by cause and effect. Chance itself might be a servant. The bell curve might be larger than expected. In any case, in the 1970's I decided to focus more on the act of synchronicity more than how I (others) used them in daily life. That is the level where I believe that the operation of synchronicity is operating slightly below the the threshold of consciousness. The reason is because people that experience it feel somewhat embarrassed (as though caught in some act) to discuss the actual workings but would rather use "synchronicity" to help themselves. It was a difficult time in the 70's because it was shelved in the occult. It was a task for those working in it to bring it into the discussions of theology and theoretic physics. Now a days, it has gotten to that point. But "coincidences" have been considered significant even in the Holy Scriptures (just in the nick of time AbrAHam-a RAM in the THICKet.) Elizabeth greeting Mary and exclaiming her interpretation of a "similitude.") There are other "coincidences" regarding "God's marvelous timing" and of course the Intellect of God. If we agree with the Psalms where it is written that the Lord shouts like a lion with some reasoning of wine then we might consider interpreting "nous" like a dream event rather than a mechanical beast. I believe that man is no better than a number and that if there is a communication from a higher intellect it might span time-place rather than simply using radio waves. It might groove us through generations. The ability for "nous" to utilize the conservation of energy to foucs on this world and point for us is an unusual subject, yet, I am stuck with it. Sincerely, Rey _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:24:04 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:45 AM 4/7/97 GMT, you wrote: >Robert, > >As I read Charles's post and your response . . . I see the >central moment of abandonment and the tipping over of the >cauldron in the DreamEvent. The wound of that old list continues >here . . . I don't think we are dealing with the past -- this is >now. What is needed to heal the wound . . . to find the flow and >openness that we have known? Spoken like a true healer! >I find the post I am responding to here and others do not do it, >despite your efforts. I think I have also made posts that are >somewhat "hollow" as Charles has termed it. Posts which carry on >as if the cauldron is upright, when in fact there is a searing >wound. With respect to the particular wounds on this list many >of us are silent, we have tried our best to speak but we miss . . > >Perhaps it is not our silence . . . > >In this post . . . and I do want to address you . . . you make >some good points. I particularly like the clarity when you say >rl is primary. Nevertheless there is a brokenness here in our >cyberspace, the words do not go to the heart of that . . . the >rest then fades . . . I think that there is some admission of the broken nature of this media, and an amount of exhaultation of this media as well.. Neither which really gets at the heart of the matter. I'd imagine that this same "living" would have occured in RL also. While those of us that have a way with words can live out some parts of our lives here, the reality is that we are still just living out our lives.. >Charles wrote a detailed summary of events within which there was >a central strong acknowledgment of a violent cut. I think there >is a silence in your post about that that is matched by a silence >in response, your trust is not misplaced, there is an >authenticity in the silence. What can I say? How can we make a >healing? . . . how can "temenos" be built? Get a couple of enthusiastic (sp?) newcomers and paint a large dream again. >Are there stories? Principles? Ethics? guidelines? Personal >sharings that will assist us here? I am asking all of us . . . Oh such Drama! Is this a soap opera? (Just kidding, well, maybe just a little.. ;-P ) This is real life. It's just stilted in the media. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 03:43:11 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charles, All, friends, & especially new people who may not know what all this is about,=20 I tend to allow my feelings and thoughts to integrate before i post, but I have an instant feeling response to the very recent posts . . . captured in this opening: > Friends, Marie, Robert, Walter, all... I love reading that. Your inclusion of those particular people feels very right and I appreciate being included. =20 We are also discussing matters that perhaps involve these people more than any others directly, though all of us indirectly. I experience myself a friend here with friends, not to deny some of the tensions! Before I read today's posts, I was missing Stuart terribly. I want to talk to him about things that I used to talk to him about . . . I don't think it can be done here, some things do require f2f contact, but to see this list of friends here, and Wilbur's posts too . . . very healing. That was the feeling response . . . A thought comes . . . About being the facilitator. I am deeply "involved" here personally, more so than a group leader should be in a rl group BUT this is not a rl group, not a group at all, I am not a group leader, but the list facilitator. =20 I am getting this clearer. One thing that I can do here but not in a rl group is sleep on any response, the medium allows for an objectivity a looking over, a "supervision" that rl does not. =20 I want to add that even though I *feel* and I am present personally, that I also think I have a job to do. I can't promise or guarantee that participants won't be hurt . . . however I can assist in the process of creating a climate where people's painful experience, should it occur here, is noticed, attended to. I am committed to doing this as best I can, & I encourage others to do the same. =20 More response to this "trainride of the blind" post later. Walter=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:08:00 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events In-Reply-To: <199704070324.XAA28030@shell.monmouth.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wilbur, > >Are there stories? Principles? Ethics? guidelines? Personal > >sharings that will assist us here? I am asking all of us . . . >=20 > Oh such Drama! Is this a soap opera? (Just kidding, well, maybe just = a > little.. ;-P ) >=20 > This is real life. It's just stilted in the media. It is stilted. I dont care -- ( i do of course) -- but i have a sense that this post got some good things going. I'm pleased i sent it -- took a while to get it together! You should have seen what i deleted! Novels worth, enough to write the Mists of Avalon! W _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:08:13 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970406095447.006cd5e8@philly.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Janell, > but some recent words could easily have > hurt or been misinterpreted (I'm assuming they weren't meant to hurt).=20 > Personally, I'm very slow to share much in this environment because = of > the safety, once or twice I have shared and it's either been ignored or > misunderstood by some or others have tried to put their interpretation = on > my experience which I found somewhat patronizing or condescending.=20 I have just sent up a post which had a note about leadership and safety. I said i was committed to noticing hurt experienced on the list, and encouraging that we attend to it. =20 I think it would be useful to speak specifically about the times you refer to. Some may involve naming specific people, addressing them. (Jim's comments on this theme have made me more aware). The question comes up of course: Will I feel hurt again. Perhaps it is not "right" for you address specific people -- it is true, their response may not be easy, stressful, abusive even. This can happen. I, nor anyone can stop this. We can, as i think we are doing with our history here, attend to it. I can't promise, and i don't think it fits, to promise support to others in the pain they experience -- that is why i use "attend" to it (Arthurian?). I can promise to attend, sometimes the attention we offer here feels good, sometimes bad. As you say sometimes someone might feel hurt, by the most well intentioned comments. Sometimes it hurts to face some things that are best faced. I'd encourage you to be specific, if not about the hurtful moments, about what you would like to hear from others before it would feel OK to go on. =20 I'd like to know now if this post feels patronising. I imagine it could. My intention not that of course. It is to make it easier for you to speak more directly to others in the list, and to prepare a space for discussion that is not sentimental, but that allows for you, and others to speak more easily about your feelings here. ultimately this is so we can have the atmosphere to do the work of the list, which paradoxically (in a similar way to how charles used the notion) we are doing right now. =20 > then I've gone with the premise of "once bitten twice shy" and I know = in > many cases that's contributed to keeping me silent where in a rl group = I > might have taken the risk. =20 As a participant or as group leader? Wilbur has been making some observations, that this medium is different -- that it has its brokenness and so on, but he says life is still life, I like that observation, do you think it applies here? What could you ask for and perhaps get, so that you might be more bold? I get the sense that you would like to be here. > Risking some. Yes. perhaps not getting exactly what you want in response . . . how is that? w _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 03:47:35 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: psyber relationships..last topic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Robert admitted that he was involved in an "on-line" relationship on this >list, Delores and I attempted to point out to him that this sort of >relationship wasn't the same as a full exposure relationship. We attempted >to point out that the dangers of this sort of relationship were that it >carried enough of a real relationship but would cause a lot of unfulfilled >emotions on both sides of the equation. I believe that I wrote a message >that the relationship stuff was causing problems in the list even then, and >that I didn't intent to continue trying to get others on this list to see >what I had already learned, but that I would simply let life take it's >course and let those people learn what they needed to learn. Actually I have come to the conclusion..I who have had more online relationships than most people have had hot dinners, partially for the fun of them, partially for the education, partially for the self indulgent romantic dellusion that somebody cares..partially for the validation of self worth, partially just to be mischievous, that they really are a ton of bull, unless your prepared to make them real. Otherwise, in my humble and very experienced opinion, your a liar, and a coward and not true to all the flowery words, all the expressed opinions, and all the I love you's you exchange. Its called facing up to how real that love is. Facing reality after electronic bliss, where nothing is real and there are no real life factors that plague relationships to worry about, is the hardest thing of all. Your ultimatly torturing yourself and any other parties involved if you carry on a cyber affair, without heeding the consequences in reality that a cyber affair brings. The consequence of reality is that to know someone, you have to meet them, and experience them in life, to know them warts and all. And then to be able to say you love them, while at least knowing what it is you love. Reality, is what counts, not an electronic self delusion which is just a bad parody of a love affair. Cyber affairs are good for the soul..but bad for your partner. And is adultery of the mind and heart any less adultery because its NOT physical? I was taken aback by the lack of sexual >undercurrent in what Delores posted. Usually it's there and I recognize it >and then ignore it, I couldn't find it this time.. No matter how much I >tried.. It seemed that Delores reached the mental equivalent of the calm >before the storm, life before the libido (sp?). Good god no wilbs, I just got throughly laid for a week. This might also go someway to explain the mental calm and spirituality, I have been experiencing. Its been 3 weeks now..so I can feel the old tumultuous waters of sexual tension stirring, till they reach their crescendo in an eventual crashing in a tidal wave of innuendo. Love Dolores _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:32:37 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, Why so much talk about list silences? I have found this is not a silent list. Why we all must handle Robert's personal problem? He left the DreamEvent prematurely. His process is unfinished, and now he tries to accomplish it here, but this place is not Group-L . What can we do? I think - nothing. Group-L was quite a different list, it was closed, and everybody knew each other. As to love: love is here, and there and everywhere. Somebody may love God and Jesus, although s/he has never met them face to face, in real life. I don't make difference between erotic and spiritual love. Walter, I live in the lurkerlandia nowadays, because I am overwhelmed by the work. A new novel will be published next autumn, but is not yet finished. Best regards Anita At 11:45 1997-04-07 GMT, you wrote: >Robert, > >As I read Charles's post and your response . . . I see the >central moment of abandonment and the tipping over of the >cauldron in the DreamEvent. The wound of that old list continues >here . . . I don't think we are dealing with the past -- this is >now. What is needed to heal the wound . . . to find the flow and >openness that we have known? > >I find the post I am responding to here and others do not do it, >despite your efforts. I think I have also made posts that are >somewhat "hollow" as Charles has termed it. Posts which carry on >as if the cauldron is upright, when in fact there is a searing >wound. With respect to the particular wounds on this list many >of us are silent, we have tried our best to speak but we miss . . > > >Perhaps it is not our silence . . . > >In this post . . . and I do want to address you . . . you make >some good points. I particularly like the clarity when you say >rl is primary. Nevertheless there is a brokenness here in our >cyberspace, the words do not go to the heart of that . . . the >rest then fades . . . > >Charles wrote a detailed summary of events within which there was >a central strong acknowledgment of a violent cut. I think there >is a silence in your post about that that is matched by a silence >in response, your trust is not misplaced, there is an >authenticity in the silence. What can I say? How can we make a >healing? . . . how can "temenos" be built? > >Are there stories? Principles? Ethics? guidelines? Personal >sharings that will assist us here? I am asking all of us . . . > > >Walter > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sieur de Cyberie , > >On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:55:16 -0800 Sieur de Cyberie > wrote, in a post entitled: "Re: of list >silences and dream events" : > > >> All, >> >> I just finished re-reading Walter's post of March 2nd called >> "life and death" and his last post "grief". What is it about this >> virtual space that allows us to be able to be so trustingly open? What >> is it about this space that brings both tears and smiles? I still ache >> for a brother lost to the darkness of his soul, the darkness in his soul. >> He couldn't stand up to the frightening shadows. I, it seems must tackle >> these shadows. And, it appears that I must do so in public, in this >> place; trusting that those who speak and those who listen are going to be >> authentic in their anger, their pain, and their compassion; trusting that >> this is okay. Charles, I am ready to begin. >> >> > When the Dream Group started, seventeen people committed themselves >> > to work together in an astonishingly frank and forthcoming way to >> > explore their own and each others' dreams -- not always the most >> > comfortable of activities, and one which necessarily takes place >> > under the twin stars of vulnerability and trust. >> >> Yes, I agree with this ... there was a necessity for trust >> because of the baring of inner processes, unconscious processes. As I >> and others dropped the cloaks of pretense, of distance, we became very >> vulnerable. The triggers these dreams set off filled the screens with >> all manner of projections, of transference. And, in the process, the >> shadow within each was given a voice. Who was watching and noting the >> transference and counter-transference that arose ready to expose and >> examine these things from the swamplands of soul in which shadow lives? >> >> > Among the seventeen, however, there were three whose life >> > situations were particularly precarious -- >> >> I wonder at this Charles. Only three? Can we truly see behind >> the screens to know this? How can we define precarious? Would not >> "publically authentic in their flawed humanity" be perhaps a more >> accurate modifier? >> >> > Stuart, who had recently been diagnosed >> > with a serious form of cancer, >> >> I re-read his posting of his dream. He was a powerful force even >> in his silences, silences imposed by his health ... his presence was felt >> through the silence which was not heavy. I wish I could say more but the >> spectre of his finality is mixed with that of my brother ... >> >> > and Marie and yourself, who were dancing the >> > strange and compelling dance known as "a love affair in cyberspace". >> >> Like the host of others amongst us who have felt the magical >> temenos that builds between two souls, Marie and I engaged in this dance >> of spirit. We dared to break polite convention by presenting the >> phenomenon to the PSYBER-L community as a way of looking at another face >> of this medium and of relation within this medium. Moving to the >> DreamEvent following this sharing of relation, of looking at it as part >> of the psyche of Cyberie, of cyberspace, we brought also unknown things >> that would colour much of our words and the understandings of others >> towards our words. >> >> > many opened their dreams and the hidden recesses of >> > their psyches into the containment of the group >> >> And with the sharing came personal reactions and interpretations. >> Some of those interpretations came with assumptions and of course with >> unconscious material that was triggered and filtered. A dangerous dance >> of dream carefully maintained within the hands of the guides for the >> event. >> >> > In all this, we also held in a very special regard our three >> > tightrope walkers: Stuart, whose Handel dream among others had >> > all the hallmarks of a "big dream", and Marie and yourself. >> >> And the cauldron within which we were contained peeled away >> layer upon layer of artifice. The duality of relation that Marie and I >> represented was also a duality that went unrecognised between on-line >> life and off-line life, between the archetypal anima and animus, between >> transerence and human relationship ... and for me, between my virtual >> love for a woman and my love for my wife ... she ceased to exist for the >> event for all but Marie and myself who maintained off-list dialogue >> throughout the event until my departure. Tears were shed for one, but >> not for the other. >> >> To awaken to the pain of abandonment in the eyes of one who has >> committed to relation, a commitment of many, many years forced me to face >> the truth that RL and Cyberia are not the same. RL takes precedence. >> >> > We prayed for you, if I can put it >> > this way -- prayers not necessarily spoken, >> >> Nor heard. >> >> > We hoped, we feared, we wishes you every blessing in what seemed >> > to us profound and potentially tragic circumstances in which great >> > nobility might nevertheless be forged. >> >> And this is where I fell apart ... which nobility? To remain by >> my lady's side? Which lady - for they both are sacred beings, very >> different in their beings - as different as is the domaine in which I >> know them? So, I chose ... a choice that gave my loss as well as >> salvation. I lost my place in the DREAM, I lost my place in CYBERIE, I >> lost my relationships within the cauldron of the "game", I lost Marie, >> and I lost much of myself. Yet I gained as well. I gained the will to >> remain present in my real-time world. I re-gained a shared dream that >> now spans decades with my wife. I salvaged family both present and >> future. The spectre of my brother again rises in front of me. He lost >> his wife, his family ... and now, his life. >> >> Charles, I will carry on with this at another time. I will >> honour your feelings and finish this. It is what I owe you as a brother >> and a poet. >> >> Robert de Cyberie >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >> >> > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:11:18 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events In-Reply-To: <199704071832.VAA08654@walrus.megabaud.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anita, all Good to see you here again! > Why so much talk about list silences? I have found this is not a = silent > list. =20 Hmmm, I agree, and yet the *experience* of silence is here right now for me. So much brewing here and so little has come through in the last day or two. Perhaps there is an experience of silence because specific people do not speak on specific things. > Why we all must handle Robert's personal problem? He left the > DreamEvent prematurely. His process is unfinished, and now he tries = to > accomplish it here, but this place is not Group-L . What can we do?= I > think - nothing. Group-L was quite a different list, it was closed,= and > everybody knew each other. I don't think this only is a Robert thing. Or only a Group-L thing. =20 The events began in this list. The themes include: Gender, love, abandonment, hope, fear, the contrast between cyber and rl-space. Death, in its rl form and also in its cyber equivalent, closing an email account, a virtual death, and then subsequent resurrection. The suitability of the medium for intimacy is in question, ie the creation of a safe space, a temenos. The relationship between lists -- and the question of inclusion and exclusion come up. =20 We can discuss these things in many ways, generally, intellectually, however I have a sense that the list has its main players with respect to these themes, the protagonists who, like it or not, embody these themes dramatically. Personal resolutions would also be enabling for the whole list. I see a main plot and a sub plot. I think Janell, for example feels the urge to be silent, and feels some discomfort, some fear, in the list. It seems to me that this is part of a pattern of focal concern that repeats and remains unresolved, and that it would be most satisfyingly resolved through some form of enabling solution to the pattern that includes Robert and Marie. =20 If they were to log off, or quit the list, then i think we would find the archetypal patterns recur eventually, as if the psyche, the collective unconscious is saying to us: Resolve this big question, this is your mission. I have a sense of these forces at work, and a willingness to notice them. I am not sure about all this of course, and open to having my perception challenged. Perhaps it is a highly personal projection, it probably includes that. I also think that I am making a fair go of naming something larger, not *only* the product of my personal filters on the world. I hope this sheds some light on my thinking, and will be added to or amended in our discussions. =20 > Walter, I live in the lurkerlandia nowadays, because I am overwhelmed = by > the work. A new novel will be published next autumn, but is not yet > finished. Do any of "our" themes come up in the novel? =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:24:01 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, At 11:11 1997-04-10 GMT, you wrote: >. Perhaps there is an experience of >silence because specific people do not speak on specific things. Perhaps I am more tolerant of silence because of my cultural background. As Bertolt Brecht put it: "The Finnish people keep silent by two languages". >The suitability of the medium for >intimacy is in question, ie the creation of a safe space, a >temenos. To my mind this is not a safe space, a temenos, because you never know who is with you here - to whom your are speaking. People are coming and going all the time. Group-L seemed to be a safe space - at the beginning. You cannot talk here so intimately. This is a much more open list. By the way Charles' train comparison was good. People don't speak of intimate love relationships to unknown fellow passengers. It is also against public decency to talk about religious or political matters. >We can discuss these things in many ways, generally. Yes, only generally, not intimately. >a pattern of focal concern that repeats and remains unresolved, and that it >would be most satisfyingly resolved through some form of enabling >solution to the pattern that includes Robert and Marie. > Resolve this big question, this is your mission. A very big thing to be resolved, indeed. There will always be "Marie and Robert" in the world and in the cyberspace which is a reflection of real life. I wonder, why people cannot live happily in the both world, happily with two women or two men excluding of one or other. Perhaps love is for men a metaphysical dilemma, and for women a practical problem? I don't know, I have only one great passion in my life - it is writing. One cannot resolve this question as long as there is love and passion. One can only be honest to his/her partners and to him/herself. And it is very difficult, because we all have been educated to be dishonest. >Do any of "our" themes come up in the novel? Yes, love and dreams, of course. First the name of the novel was " The Northern Dreambook", but my publisher said that is a dull name, and doesn't tally with contents. Now its name is " Love is an everlasting temptation". It is the publisher's suggestion. May be it is now more correspondent to contents, at least it is up to the publisher's hopes. Best regards Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:05:04 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter Wrote: At 11:11 AM 4/10/97 GMT, you wrote: >I see a main plot and a sub plot. I think Janell, for example >feels the urge to be silent, and feels some discomfort, some >fear, in the list. It seems to me that this is part of a pattern >of focal concern that repeats and remains unresolved, and that it >would be most satisfyingly resolved through some form of enabling >solution to the pattern that includes Robert and Marie. You misunderstand. I'm silent right now because of the demands of the rl world and my necessity to make a living. They've left me with little or no time to respond immediately to anyone's post. The last post you wrote to me on 4/7 is very high on my list to respond to (it's late 10PM on 4/9 here), but I just haven't had time. To be honest I don't fear the list or anyone in it. It's quite the opposite, at times, I fear the shadow side of my response if I misunderstand someone's comments. > >If they were to log off, or quit the list, then i think we would >find the archetypal patterns recur eventually, as if the psyche, >the collective unconscious is saying to us: Resolve this big >question, this is your mission. I have a sense of these forces at >work, and a willingness to notice them. > >I am not sure about all this of course, and open to having my >perception challenged. Perhaps it is a highly personal >projection, it probably includes that. I also think that I am >making a fair go of naming something larger, not *only* the >product of my personal filters on the world. I hope this sheds >some light on my thinking, and will be added to or amended in our >discussions. > >> Walter, I live in the lurkerlandia nowadays, because I am overwhelmed by >> the work. A new novel will be published next autumn, but is not yet >> finished. > >Do any of "our" themes come up in the novel? > >Walter More Later! Janell _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 03:39:23 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970409220344.006ab2f4@philly.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Janell=20 > You misunderstand. I'm silent right now because of the demands of the= rl > world and my necessity to make a living. They've left me with little or= no > time to respond immediately to anyone's post. I understand that one! I have a 10 minute gap for the list today!=20 I was not so much trying to intuit what you were feeling now, as referring to the "once bitten twice shy" post where you spoke of safety. Perhaps fear is too strong, but shy has the sub plot feeling to it. I was also thinking of the in and out of the water process. Testing the safety? > To be honest I don't fear the list or anyone > in it. It's quite the opposite, at times, I fear the shadow side of my > response if I misunderstand someone's comments. That is interesting, and perhaps explains more clearly the feelings. =20 > More Later! I look forward to that. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 02:14:02 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Friendship is a continuous spontaneous longing..... Dear Friends, In silence I read and in the same respond, til now.. So many conversations with the dial tone. Difficult to write on these things...so much unresolved anger and sadness resurfacing. I am awakened by Charles' post and as ever sad for Robert. Robert is a bit of cad, as some of us [females] know....romancing many of us...and not entirely honest with Marie all the while. It was not the least surprising that he left the list when some of his...inconsistencies.... seemed to be ...surfacing. Robert, it would seem to me, cannot be honest with the list because he has yet to be honest with himself. I had hoped his brief time away from the list would have brought him some clarity. He returned with a kind of unforgiveable arrogance: his posts at his return all seemed to say, ok, I'm back, get over whatever it was you think I did. I was so angry at the time all I could post was my disgust about the insufferable arrogance of men: Robert who maims hearts with his casual flirtations, Walter who opens the door to his return with barely so much as an oh by the way to the list. Given a vote I would have cast decidedly NO. And yet. There is an element of truth in every myth. And as much as I am loathe to admit it I think some element of truth in Robert's observation about responses to women on the list. I know I discussed that issue with one of the women on the list, albeit in an off-list dialogue. Just a feeling that slips around the edges ... difficult to identify with specifics. And... I still believe that women and men experience silence differently. Require silence differently maybe too. Silence herein being a metaphor for lack of feedback/dialogue. And... I hear again and again my friend who says: Women do not generally HEAR romantic words, they read them. And I think perhaps that is because men are not so comfortable Saying romantic words, but possibly more comfortable writing them. It is not surprising that women respond to this medium of words....and that men find a voice here as well. Just some idle observations. But I do take issue with Wilbur and Delores [goddess....I am unworthy]....I think our explorations, whether in cyberspace or realtime, are required of us. Perhaps I have not, as they may have, found the partner who completes me. But there is so much of myself I've yet to discover and it is through this medium that that process has been enriched. I do not think our hearts are so small to be only confined to one person. I love.....deeply, sweetly, with great tenderness and passion...I feel neither embarassed nor ashamed to have experienced a deep spiritual connection to people I have never "met"...and if that connection resonates in my being and quivers in my soul and makes my knees a little week....it is only all the more delightful. It simply IS. Love is a gift. Passion is a gift. Sorrow is a gift. Perhaps boredom too. I am reminded of a few lines from the book _Dahlgren_ by R. Delaney....something like: "Are you happy?" "I think there is something wrong with your question. Sometimes I'm happy, sometimes I'm sad, sometimes I'm just plain bored. I know if I worked really hard at it I could eliminate some of the happiness. The rest I know I'm stuck with." But I digress...how the mind wanders after midnight...this ridiculous post is a jumble of disconnected thoughts....I can't find the connection between all these disparate thoughts....or where they were leading me... I thank you Charles for cauterizing a wound I had not realized I left unhealed. And you Walter for this place. I wish for Robert and Marie all good things. I hope they find the courage to heal......not an easy thing....too easy to let the past define us. For me every day is a choice to become someone new.....not defined by the past, nor crippled by it....some days more of a struggle than others. I work in the wireless telecommunications industry...mobile phones. I do Traffic Engineering: monitoring the system for Lost Calls and Ineffective Attempts. No small bit of ironic humor in all that, I can tell you. Most of the people I work with have at least three telephones: a desk phone, a portable phone, a car phone. AND a pager. They have their car phone voice mail forwarded to their desk phone (or vice versa). They can fone, fax, email, page....you name it...all remotely...and wirelessly. And not one of them is any better at communicating anything. Last week my Director said to me, "I just long for silence." ......and I'm sitting there thinking.....'damn I wish he'd TALK to me'. Is'e _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:58:24 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events In-Reply-To: <199704091524.SAA18410@walrus.megabaud.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anita, all Your post has had me thinking all day. =20 > To my mind this is not a safe space, a temenos, because you never = know > who is with you here - to whom your are speaking. People are coming > and going all the time. =20 ~~~ > > We can discuss these things in many ways, generally. >=20 > Yes, only generally, not intimately. When I read these words this morning I thought: of course, how strange that I did not realise that these things are beyond the scope of the list. I have always said we need to go to closed groups for the more intimate, personal levels. =20 By lunchtime I broadened my perspective somewhat, I still saw the value of clarifying the scope of this list, and developing the closed PsyberGroups, but I also came up with more thoughts: Scope of this list. In the description we focus on "experiential" learning, we mention: | Forming relationships of a collegial nature around=20 | our psychological net interests is an important part=20 | of the work. Many people have commented favourably how the list does have a heart. We can't do that if we stay "general", intellectual. People have been and are intimate in this group. Some posts go way beyond the "general" and they enable us to do the task of the list: to explore leadership, and the list dynamics experientially.=20 Hence we can be faced with personal, and group dynamics that are painful, broken, unhealthy etc. =20 Safety. In closed groups and open groups *anything* can happen, in rl too. What makes for safety? Commitment to attend to whatever happens. There is too much covered up and hidden away in the name of "being too emotional", not doing "therapy" in professional settings etc. Not dragging up the past -- there are so many ways our (NZ, Western? World?) culture covers up layer after layer of dysfunction. A commitment to attend to these matters will make the group safer. Imagine how strange it would be if someone jumped off (Charles') train while it was going and no one noticed, or pretended it did not happen. =20 > One cannot resolve this question as long as there is love and passion.= One > can only be honest to his/her partners and to him/herself. And it= is > very difficult, because we all have been educated to be dishonest. I think we are doing the difficult thing here, the honest thing, worth doing. =20 Learning from our process You are onto something Anita when you say this group, like Charles' train is limited in its scope. To contain the list somewhat may help, and the broad sweep may have contributed to some of the difficulty. Reviewing the description may be called for. Wilbur was onto this more than a year ago. Some warm-up to more containment could be created. Suggestions welcome. Working on that other major question, of developing the psybergroups, the closed groups in conjunction with this list is a project on my agenda, and one I'd love to see discussed on the list. ~~~ > >Do any of "our" themes come up in the novel? >=20 > Yes, love and dreams, of course. First the name of the novel was " The > Northern Dreambook", but my publisher said that is a dull name, and = doesn't > tally with contents. Now its name is " Love is an everlasting > temptation". =20 Intriguing. Will it be in English? Are your other books in English? =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:55:37 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Psyberians... Robert, I apologize for this if it in any way adds to the chaos and accusations that seem to be surrounding you on Psyber-L. I suspect you know me well enough by now to know that I act on my own heart, mind, and conscience... I'm just full of surprises. :) There seems to be a window in time here that seems appropriate for me to write to the list. Following the last long email I sent to Psyber-L, comparing my experiences in The Family to those of the Dream Event, I decided to remain basically *silent*, and began thinking about leaving this Psyber sea. Following this post, though, I saw the window... or maybe it's more like a narrow gate. I'se says: > Friendship is a continuous spontaneous longing..... > > Dear Friends, > > In silence I read and in the same respond, til now.. So many conversations > with the dial tone. > > Difficult to write on these things...so much unresolved anger and sadness > resurfacing. > > I am awakened by Charles' post and as ever sad for Robert. > > Robert is a bit of cad, as some of us [females] know....romancing many of > us...and not entirely honest with Marie all the while. It was not the least > surprising that he left the list when some of his...inconsistencies.... > seemed to be ...surfacing. Robert, it would seem to me, cannot be honest > with the list because he has yet to be honest with himself. I had hoped his > brief time away from the list would have brought him some clarity. He > returned with a kind of unforgiveable arrogance: his posts at his return all > seemed to say, ok, I'm back, get over whatever it was you think I did. I read this and thought... oh oh... because Robert and I have been corresponding for months. But then I went to my truth, and the Robert I know. Initially, there may have been some *romantic* overtones, but I believe it has progressed to another kind of relationship... at least it has for me. It has been affirming, encouraging, and sharing. Robert's and my RL situations were similar enough to provide common ground. Dealing with difficulties of marriages of long standing... exacerbated by the cornucopia of new experiences, joyful, painful, and ecstatic now available in cyberspace... we were both, I think, vulnerable. But... the very confusion that made us vulnerable, RL marriages, had priority. So the *romantic* aspects were discussed and put away. I understand how Robert could be perceived as a *cad*. He does have a power with words. I don't know if he did not reveal his marital status to others... but he let me know soon after we began emailing. In knowing that, a boundary, fuzzy at first, began increasingly set. And I think that boundary allowed us a kind of comfort, and maybe a way to communicate on a differently deep level. > I was so angry at the time all I could post was my disgust about the > insufferable arrogance of men: Robert who maims hearts with his casual > flirtations, Walter who opens the door to his return with barely so much as > an oh by the way to the list. Given a vote I would have cast decidedly NO. It is difficult for me to ask this, because I have my own wounds of the heart, not related to Robert... but can a heart be maimed if it is not already open? In more socially approved terms... what responsibility does a woman have in allowing her heart to *be* maimed? As I said, I have my own wounds of the heart... experiencing that then and still... but what of a wife of a man who has been married for 20 years? The thing is... she is me, and I am her. What of the children of that union? We are all connected. No matter how powerful or casual a flirtation, if I decide to walk that line, I must walk it in tension, and try to honor all involved... including any unseen RL others. > And yet. > > There is an element of truth in every myth. And as much as I am loathe to > admit it I think some element of truth in Robert's observation about > responses to women on the list. I know I discussed that issue with one of > the women on the list, albeit in an off-list dialogue. Just a feeling that > slips around the edges ... difficult to identify with specifics. And I feel it too... that is, I think why I had felt strongly to remain silent. I have learned better to speak, walk a kind of line of tension between subjective and objective... but I have little sense of being heard. > I still believe that women and men experience silence differently. Require > silence differently maybe too. Silence herein being a metaphor for lack of > feedback/dialogue. > > And... Yes. And, each woman experiences that differently I think. I liked Janelle's reference to not responding from the shadow. > I hear again and again my friend who says: Women do not generally HEAR > romantic words, they read them. And I think perhaps that is because men are > not so comfortable Saying romantic words, but possibly more comfortable > writing them. It is not surprising that women respond to this medium of > words....and that men find a voice here as well. Just some idle > observations. > But I do take issue with Wilbur and Delores [goddess....I am unworthy]....I > think our explorations, whether in cyberspace or realtime, are required of > us. Perhaps I have not, as they may have, found the partner who completes > me. But there is so much of myself I've yet to discover and it is through > this medium that that process has been enriched. I do not think our hearts > are so small to be only confined to one person. I love.....deeply, sweetly, > with great tenderness and passion...I feel neither embarassed nor ashamed to > have experienced a deep spiritual connection to people I have never > "met"...and if that connection resonates in my being and quivers in my soul > and makes my knees a little week....it is only all the more delightful. It > simply IS. Love is a gift. Passion is a gift. Sorrow is a gift. Perhaps > boredom too. For me... the key is to take this recognition of all these qualities that I've discovered in myself, the passion, sorrow, and spiritual and soulful connection that seems to always surround my relationships in psyber space... all the lessons I've learned... the key is to take them into RL, to who I am and to who I can be. The beauty... and ugliness... what I discovered in myself through love in cyberspace... exists in *me*, wherever I exist. I am sending this to the List without first mentioning it to Robert... but then I have never sent anything I sent to the List to him first. In fact, I suspect some of what I have written to the List has flown off and hit him occasionally :) To me, he is not a romantic hero, or a god, but a man, who is of the same human origin as all of us. I don't mean to hurt anyone, but hope that this may somehow help in discovering truth and clarity, probably for myself above all. Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:44:12 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Steve Murray. Some sad news. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear friends on the Psyber list, Some of you will have known Steve, he was on this last some time. At the moment I am still slightly shocked at having found this in my mailbox. I haven't had a chance to think about it, but I am going to miss him. When I had a problem with Demons in my bedroom, he was there to hand me out some good advice and spent forever explaining to me about the summer country. Wherever Steve is, I know he is happy, and I hope he is united with Laurana. I am sorry that we never got a chance to meet. Steve believed ultimatly in the power of love, and in that way, he touched my life a little, and made it a little better, and I know that he had that effect on a lot of other people too. I am forwarding you the mail I recieved. Reply-To: rouell@ainet.com Organization: Young Living Essential Oils To: Dolores Subject: Information about Steve Murray Delores I do not know if you have yet been informed of this sad news. I am forwarding to you a copy of a note I received from Pauline, a friend of Steve Murray. Steve has transistioned to the other side and is no longer with us here in the physical plane. I am forwarding this to you in case you are in a position to attend his funeral services. I am sorry to be the bearer of such bad news. I did not know if you had yet been informed as most of us are still in shock. That man was loved and respected more than he ever could understand or accept. Please let me know that you receive this. Blessings of love and balance. Sybil rouell@ainet.com Pauline Kennedy wrote: > > Hi Sybil, > > I don't know whether anyone has been in touch with you with more details > about Steve's death. I found out a few more things yesterday evening. > > Steve was found in the River Clyde in Glasgow on Saturday (I don't know > what time) near a riverboat casino that he went to with a chap called Alan. > At some stage in the evening Alan lost sight of Steve and although he > looked for him after about 5-10 mins after noticing that he couldn't see > him he didn't find him. Someone else at the casino said that he thought > Steve had left. The next day he was found in the river. > > >From what Alan has said and from what another friend of mine has said there > are wooden dock areas near the casino and they extend under a bridge that > goes over the river for traffic. Apparantly it is not very well lit where > the docks go under the bridge and it had been raining during the day and > did rain in the evening. Alan said that Steve was a little subdued when he > picked him up but obviously not too bad. > > I think that Steve may have decided to go for a bit of a walk by the river > to enjoy a bit of peace and quiet and that somehow he fell in. From > everything I know of Steve if he had been planning suicide he would have > left a message for someone and probably said goodbye via email to a few > people. We do know that he had plans for during this week and for later in > the year, someone said that he was thinking or planning to visit you > sometime in the summer. > > We will probably never know for sure but to me it looks like it could well > have been some kind of accident. > > As to his funeral arrangements people who can are meeting at the funeral > parlour at 9:30 am Monday 14 March, the service is at a Dalnotter > Crematorium in Clydebank at 10 am (BST which is GMT+1hr). From what I know > there will be alot of people there, Steve has alot of friends. > > I hope you are beginning to come to terms with his death, it must be very > difficult for you as you are a bit more isolated form other people he knew. > I know that I have beeen finding it difficult but finding out more about > what happened or might of happened to him has helped. > > I hope to hear from you soon. > > Bright Blessings, > > Pauline. ________________________________________________________________________ > Pauline Kennedy Woodward > > Teaching and Learning Service > 3rd Floor, Gilbert Scott Building > University of Glasgow > Glasgow G12 8QQ > Tel:0141 339 8855 Extn:2212 > pkennedy@mis.gla.ac.uk (Pauline Kennedy > ____________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 03:18:42 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Steve Murray. Some sad news. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970411203954.2597d15e@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores, All, I have been silent on the list for 24 hours or more. It is not rl business, other pressures, it is reading Is'e's and Sheryl's posts, which are giving me much to reflect on, others too I imagine & which I would like to discuss very fully. I was hoping others might respond, as I was at a loss to know where to start, though getting close to writing when your news Dolores, about Steve Murray cut across this. =20 Some may recall Steve had the email address of /etc/aliases , though he is now subbed to the list in his own name, with a slightly different address. =20 Removing email addresses from the list on an occasion such as this is my job, and reminds me of FRITZ's comment that here we are "only" addresses. The power is there in the address. I can't remove it without some ceremony. I have extended the metaphor of the train by suggesting that someone leaving it by totally unsubbing from the net altogether is a form of cyber suicide, jumping off the speeding train. Quite different to someone quietly getting on and off. In the case of Steve, it is like a passenger, once vocal, then very quiet, passing away somewhat mysteriously. When these things happen, whatever is going on in the train, they require our attention, and as the guard (unfortunate extension of the metaphor) it means I do need to make some acknowledgment. I have looked back over some of his posts, your post with the information about his life create a fuller picture than I had and am aware that there were off list connections I did not understand. . . Thanks Dolores for posting the news, it sounds as though you have lost a friend, and that is sad, they can be hard to find. I trust you do whatever is right. You or others may wish to say more . . . It seems right that I remove his sub some time after his funeral. Walter=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 03:24:28 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: (fwd) Steve Murray MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:27:34 +0100 (BST), Martin Christie wrote: We got your address from one of Steve Murray's mail accounts, and so thought you would appreciate being informed : Steve Murray passed away on April 5th 1997. The funeral service will be held on Monday 14th April, commencing at 9.30 am at 1347 Dumbarton Road, Glasgow. Funeral to follow at Clydebank Crematorium, North Dalnotter, arriving at 10am, to which all friends are respectfully invited. No flowers please. Letters of condolence can be sent to : Isabel Murray, 51 Turret Rd, Knightswood, Glasgow, Scotland, UK. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 04:22:41 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events In-Reply-To: <970410021402_1186685192@emout16.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is'e > Difficult to write on these things...so much unresolved=20 > anger and sadness resurfacing. Difficult! Yes. I think you did well though, and helped create the window through which Sheryl was then able to come in. =20 I don't know how you or others feel but I am sitting in the midst of a pool of silence since your post, and Sheryl's. I have some things to say, but mostly I have a sense that in the unfolding of our process here it is not my call right now. One Robert said he was going to continue his story, Wilbur has asked him some questions . . .=20 > I am awakened by Charles' post and as ever sad for Robert. >=20 > Robert is a bit of cad, as some of us [females] know....romancing many = of > us...and not entirely honest with Marie all the while. =20 All this gives me a sense of *secrecy*. This is quite different from unknown, and private. Robert and others might be in the best position to create some openness and health. When you say you feel sad for Robert . . . is that of do with the death of his brother, or with these *situations* that reveal them selves here? I feel some sadness as the silence goes on . . . a slow dawning, that a straight forward breath of fresh air is not going to come. Not going to come easily anyway. =20 Robert wrote a while back that we could do many things at once on this list -- on any list. The present situation points in another direction. I have many things I want to write about . . . somehow they seem "hollow" and inappropriate while the current themes are in the air, while your post and Sheryl's, and others go unanswered. =20 > It was not the least > surprising that he left the list when some of his...inconsistencies.... > seemed to be ...surfacing. Robert, it would seem to me, cannot be = honest > with the list because he has yet to be honest with himself. =20 > I had hoped his > brief time away from the list would have brought him some clarity. =20 I have been hoping the recent posts would have done that. I think my agreeing to have Robert back, in Psyber-L as well as the DreamEvent was all based on such hopes. =20 > I was so angry at the time all I could post was my disgust about the > insufferable arrogance of men: Robert who maims hearts with his casual > flirtations, Walter who opens the door to his return with barely so = much as > an oh by the way to the list. Given a vote I would have cast decidedly= NO. Your anger with me here is for neglecting to do the very thing that I have been saying in this list lately that will make for temenos, for safety. I hold the key to the door here, certainly in the DreamEvent I had that key, and here too to some extent. A responsibility goes with that, and it would seem that there may have been a better way to handle these matters. Whether there was or not, the way it went left you feeling at the brunt of arrogant men. I am sorry that happened. I am certainly much clearer now of the gravity of some of many aspects of the dynamics. =20 > And yet. >=20 > There is an element of truth in every myth. And as much as I am loathe= to > admit it I think some element of truth in Robert's observation about > responses to women on the list. =20 Is that element of truth re-enacting itself right now in some way? You had a thoughtful & heartfelt response to your post in Sheryl's, however the two posts seem to me to have hung in the air for a good while. They are women's posts . . . I struggle to respond, to *be* here and not to hive off in intellectual discussions about the principles involved, and the learning re list process & facilitation etc. =20 > I know I discussed that issue with one of > the women on the list, albeit in an off-list dialogue. Just a feeling = that > slips around the edges ... difficult to identify with specifics. It is ironic that Robert mentioned this, and also has drawn our attention to list silence. I think the specifics may have a lot to do with the off-list dialogues, which he knew about. What list members do in private email is none of our business. Understanding the moods and ebb and flow of our list is . . . the complexity is that they are related. More than that, forming friendships in the list and so on is one thing, has what has happened gone way beyond that?=20 Is'e, you wrote: > Friendship is a continuous spontaneous longing..... Has this spontaneity been exploited? Have I and some participants here colluded with that in some way? =20 > And... >=20 > I still believe that women and men experience silence differently. = Require > silence differently maybe too. Silence herein being a metaphor for = lack of > feedback/dialogue. I am totally unsure . . . I have experienced the last 36 hours or so as a disturbing silence, awkward . . . yet it may be very different for others. =20 > I > think our explorations, whether in cyberspace or realtime, are required= of > us. Perhaps I have not, as they may have, found the partner who = completes > me. But there is so much of myself I've yet to discover and it is = through > this medium that that process has been enriched. I do not think our = hearts > are so small to be only confined to one person. I love.....deeply, = sweetly, > with great tenderness and passion...I feel neither embarassed nor = ashamed to > have experienced a deep spiritual connection to people I have never > "met"...and if that connection resonates in my being and quivers in my = soul > and makes my knees a little week....it is only all the more delightful.= It > simply IS. Love is a gift. Passion is a gift. Sorrow is a gift. = Perhaps > boredom too. Of course and it sounds wonderful. I think we can delight all of these passions but not if there is exploitation, betrayal, secrecy and dishonesty. > I thank you Charles for cauterizing a wound I had not realized I left > unhealed. And you Walter for this place. I wish for Robert and Marie = all > good things. I hope they find the courage to heal......not an easy > thing....too easy to let the past define us. =20 > For me every day is a choice to > become someone new.....not defined by the past, nor crippled by = it....some > days more of a struggle than others. We can't just skip over some things -- and what a release if we actually finish some things. Funerals if they are good can do that for a death, lay the person to rest, create a new day. If they are skipped or not possible then there is a mess to resolve, and it can be done. Many therapy sessions succeed in finishing off old unfinished stuff. Cauterising as you say. How is the healing?=20 > I work in the wireless telecommunications industry...mobile phones. I = do > Traffic Engineering: monitoring the system for Lost Calls and = Ineffective > Attempts. No small bit of ironic humor in all that, I can tell you. = Most of > the people I work with have at least three telephones: a desk phone, a > portable phone, a car phone. AND a pager. They have their car phone = voice > mail forwarded to their desk phone (or vice versa). They can fone, = fax, > email, page....you name it...all remotely...and wirelessly. And not = one of > them is any better at communicating anything. Last week my Director = said to > me, "I just long for silence." ......and I'm sitting there > thinking.....'damn I wish he'd TALK to me'. That is a great story and says it all! Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 04:02:18 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: list silences and Steven.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, I'm not silent out of respect for Robert. I'm silent because of the news of Steven's death and the great depth of feeling that it has unleashed for me in the past few days. Death, the thing that God was invented for. Friday afternoon I went back and started by checking my old mail for anything from Steven Murray. I didn't remember who he was at first. Ashamedly, I realized that when he first came in, I thoroughly flamed him for speaking in Universal terms about how men where. I told him in no uncertain terms that individual rights meant that he couldn't speak for me and my issues as a man. I told him that indeed, in my being a man, he couldn't speak for me. Then I went back and read over a great number of the posts that he was responding too and the posts of my in response to his, and then I recalled the various things that were going on in the list in May. I ended up reading most of the messages in the March, April may timeframe, and I realized that I had throughly trashed his poetic waxing on the communion with his manhood. That was all during the time that Robert admitted his love of Marie to the list. He claimed that he was going public, and Delores went off on men because of the wound that she had experienced after having an online affair. I have the intellectual understanding of this media, along with the depth of understanding of emotional betrayal from my familial upbringing, so I understood the nature of the the little lies that make the online affair and cheating on your wife so dangerous. Delores and I both pointed out the myraid inconsistencies in the gushing, glowing public unvealing of their love. Delores and I traded email's about how going public typically included letting your wife in on the deal, and that the list isn't really the public, and that going public meant more than sharing it with the people here. Delores posted about how men thought only with their Penises.. and in the mean time both she and I were enjoying thrashing the emotionless intellectual discussions with raw emotional content.. I brought rage into the discussion, I nominated Delores in the role of Devil, and she promptly said that I should be sacrificed.. I noticed that Delores had almost total anger in her feelings toward men in those posts, and then along came Steven and fell in love with her. Given that I've had to discover the hard way that I was attracked to women that hated men, I really thrashed Steven for his obvious fawning over Delores and agreement with the posts that were degrading to men. In the mean time Lisa, (I'm having a hard time remembering the names.. but it's in the archives..) posted about how men's penises were to be worshiped.. in direct conflict with Delores post.. and then Steven jumped in and defended Delores. Now Steven is the name of the man that Delores got involved with that cost her her marriage.. but that wasn't the same Steven, so not knowing what was going on exactly, (and the other Steven was hanging around at the time..) I ended up in the middle with Lisa sending me email that she didn't want to flame Delores, asking me how to get this to stop. But flaming Delores with the next message to the list. Delores was sending me email that she didn't know how to stop flaming Lisa, and that she wanted to stop. But her next message was a flame of Lisa. Steven seemed to be in the middle causing more and more escalation.. so I finally had enough and twisted every glowing thought that Steven was expressing into base expressions, with about twice the intensity of the flames that were going back and forth, ending it with "isn't it time for this silliness to stop?" Delores and Lisa sort of made up, but in the end, I realized that I hadn't paid attention to Steven's humanity in the rage fest and flame fest, complete with sexual undertones and innuendo.. Well, it wasn't actually innuendo, this was so hot that I was forced to ask my then girlfriend, now wife, if she would be comfortable with me getting into these topics.. When faced with women that wanted to talk about men's Penises and the like, I choose, (I believe wisely), to be true to my real life relationship first. Tamara didn't give me permission to get into those conversations, and I abided by the trust between us. Steven is also the guy that brought up "sychronicity" from time to time. (At least he got onto that bandwagon.. who knows where it originated from..) I know that sort of thing, and it's scared me from time to time, I've very psychic, and I've chosen to turn that part of my off and ignore it because it brings too much noise and flow into my life. The free association is something that I have, and I can create a multitude of associations without effort. I actually need to control that aspect of myself. But I after Lisa and Delores sort of kissed and made up. I sent a message to Steven saying that I had realized that in all of this, that I might not have treated him with the respect that he deserved. He was happy to get this message from me and we traded a couple of mail messages about various things. He spoke, on the list, vaguely about the demons that he had, and how the being was developed from the childhood experiences. I saw, and didn't share with him, that I saw that he had demons. Since I had brought for the Devil here, and brought in the rage, I didn't want to get into things with too great a depth. I was scared. The honesty that of what I've shared here and the amount of myself that I posted left me with more emotion that I knew what to do with. I couldn't stand going in deeper to the discussions about demon's and the like. I've always attracked the type of people with demons and in my own attempt to keep positive energy in my own life, I don't fight as many other people's demons as I used to. Steven is also the guy that would post 5 and 6 page messages to the list. I told him to cut down on the bandwidth, and he admitted that I was right. He then posted smaller messages for a short while. Delores then posted how she had called her pet demon in the closet "Wilbur" as a child, and had used this demon to terrorize her little sister. I then teased her that I was going to tell her my own Demon in the closet story, and eventually told it to the list. That's the story of where I crept across the room to terrorize my own brother. (This is in the archive..) Steven then responded with a message, (which is still in my "to reply to" queue), that I had done exactly the right thing. That while he was scared of the dark, the reality was that he had to live his life for himself. That he had to make up his mind to not be afraid of the demons. He said that one day he might be able to turn the lights out at night and sleep. I was happy for him. He had come to the same realizations that I have also come to. He spoke about deciding to live life without the demons, just just make the decision. I was hoping for support from others on the list, but this exchange seemed to cause a great pause.. perhaps it was that everyone had migrated to the Dream Event, who knows..? Steven sent me a couple more messages, and the last message that I sent him was that I just didn't have the time to respond to his messages. That I was way too busy. I'm really sorry that is the last message that I sent him. I hope that Steven's able to sleep with the lights off. Perhaps we need to light some sort of candle in Psyberspace for Steven and all of the others that have passed recently. Walter has spoken about a funeral, perhaps that's what we need. A couple of weeks ago Delores pretty much asked me to explain God. I pretended to not know of the sexual innuendo of a young 11 year old and her pony. But it's not exactly the truth that I didn't see the innuendo, but more that I didn't feel it. Freud would have had a field day with the "Girl and her pony" story.. but I didn't see it that way. I felt something more. Something different that was coming out of Delores. I can't explain God. As a matter of fact, I believe that believing in God is tantamount of putting humanity second, so the entire idea of God bothers me a great deal. I can't explain death either, and somehow admitting it's existance never leaves me feeling much other than cold. Wilbur, the demon in Delores closet, is tired of being honest. The honesty is hurting me too much, and the part of me that believes in God hopes that Steven stays with us in the ways that he touched our lives, both in life and in death. The emotional effort to reach these feelings is tiring, it doesn't always feel bad, but I somehow always feel like I'm not quite where I want to be, not quite where I can express what I'm feeling, mostly because I'm feeling so much. Lately I've been feeling that I have enough to say that I should write a book. Perhaps there's a book right in the archives of Psyber-L. It certainly brought up a tremendous amount of feeling for me to read back over the all of the things that I've posted and the responses. Walter has been talking about redefining the purpose of this list. When I first came the charter was too much for me to find a specific purpose here. Then I jumped in and shared a lot of things that, looking back, I didn't expect to have shared. I think that a great deal of value has transpired on this list. (at least it has value to me..). Perhaps the issue now is that that various areas that are off limits just aren't find voice here, and that's causing the silence. The emotions are very high, and the amount of energy to bring them together is exhausting me, I must imagine that it's the same with everyone else. The masking of life that occurs in this medium is a double edged sword. I'm unable to sustain the level of conversation to maintain the emotional involvement, yet the emotional involvement is heightened by the inability to touch and simply be human. I'm happy and dismayed by what I saw in Steven a year ago, and by what I didn't see in Steven until I re-read our exchanges on friday. When another Steven that I know died in a very similar circumstance, I had to think "if only I had.. " since I had known that he was in pain. But I hadn't found the place inside myself that I could share with him so that he would be OK. Perhaps better said that he was OK. He died in a car accident. As many people as I've met that I'd like to help, the best thing that I've learned is that I have to let them carry their own burdens. And I have to carry mine. One of those burdens is the repetative patterns that I see, the sychronicity. I'm seeing too much death lately, I don't want to see any more. I hope that Steven can sleep with the lights out. I may leave them on tonight. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:21:07 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Archetypal projections Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, One of the topics of Psyber-L is archetypes. Now we have an excellent opportunity of examining how they affect the list. I have scanty of time to analyse profoundly what is happening here, but I have remarked strong emotions of anger , and also embarrassed silence. Robert seems to be an embodiment of Seducer, Animus and Shadow archetypes. I don't know how consciously he has chosen his role and the email address " Sieur de Cyberie". I wonder why not an ordinary Smith or Jones. Perhaps he loves to be a target of romantic Animus projections. His email address is both honest and revealing. Thanks to it I didn't get caught. "Projections of all kinds obscure our view of our fellow men, spoiling its objectivity, and thus spoiling all possibility of genuine human relationships", M-L Franz has said. Projections cannot be resolved as long as they are unconscious. Winding up the Archetypal pattern and projections connecting with it, causes usually overwhelming anger, shame and embarrassed silence. Somebody has compared it with cleaning up the Augean Stables. A very hard job to do, Walter. Best regards Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:58:06 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Archetypal projections In-Reply-To: <199704131121.OAA22550@walrus.megabaud.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anita, all,=20 Great title for a new thread, just the one I think. > Winding > up the Archetypal pattern and projections connecting with it, = causes > usually overwhelming anger, shame and embarrassed silence. Somebody = has > compared it with cleaning up the Augean Stables. A very hard job to = do, > Walter. Hercules had to do it and he did it by diverting a great river through them. A Herculean task. =20 I oscillate between taking it on, looking for a suitable river to divert, and on the other hand crawling off. I think I have hung in here like some crazed hero. =20 What sort of temenos is needed to contain these archetypal forces? Perhaps we are doing it. Containment is only part of it anyway. I think for all the lack of safety you spoke of Anita, it is also the security of the "vessel" here that has enabled us to see these hitherto unconscious processes. Where does that come from? The thought and effort people put in to work at this, to make analysis, to read the archives and make insightful summaries, as Wilbur has done. The willingness to share honest and difficult thoughts and feelings, as we have been doing. =20 Thanks=20 Walter=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:58:21 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Walter, Wilbur, et al..... > > Difficult to write on these things... > Difficult! Yes. I think you did well though, and helped create > the window through which Sheryl was then able to come in. > > I don't know how you or others feel but I am sitting in the midst > of a pool of silence since your post, and Sheryl's. At the risk of sounding paranoid, or of having delusions...I do seem to have that affect on this list....my delightful repartee with Delores notwithstanding. Hey Wilbur..... girls just want to have fun..... you know what I mean? >I have some > things to say, but mostly I have a sense that in the unfolding of > our process here it is not my call right now. One Robert said he > was going to continue his story, Wilbur has asked him some > questions . . . Well I am feeling much more accepting of Robert lately. Cutting across a double standard I didn't realize I was holding on to: giving Robert credit for his willingness to expose himself and search out himself in such a "public" way. . Robert has a incredible gift with language, well, with several languages. Being a person vulnerable to words, I was drawn to his writing. His WRITING you must understand, not the man. Or at least I suppose to the essence of the soul reflected in the words. We are not always represented by our words. Sometimes we are more than them, sometimes we are less. Is my poetry mine or am I a conduit for ideas that I pluck from a consciousness not entirely my own? I know when it is "good", when I reread it and it makes my soul burn, I only think, "where did that come from?". When it is bad, then I think, "ah, that was mine, what trash.". Self-effacing? no...I just mean than when I connect with the essence of myself through poetry then I connect with something larger than < I >, something....drawn out of, as Thomas Mann calls it, the time coulisses....the deep well of the past. Wilibur understands about the seduction of words.....and it is fascinating to watch him as he appears to me...to be both repelled by and attracted to words...seduced in a different sort of way..less emotionally, more intellectually.......but no less passionately. Robert has this gift....words that resonate. It is not surprising so many women are drawn to him. And not surprising he may have been overwhelmed by the attention. Or perhaps he is used to it, and enjoyed another avenue to exploit it. who knows? Perhaps this was a new revelation for him. I have seen it played out again and again in list relationships: men who find a voice for women where before they felt inadequate. Men who found they could make a woman quiver with just their words. It must be an amazingly powerful discovery.... My 'sadness' for Robert is that he doesn't seem to be comfortable or ... I don't know how to say this....doesn't Embrace this gift, this magic.....he seems a bit afraid of it. And probably should be, do some extent. At least aware of its power. On the other hand, maybe he is and perhaps it is when he is out of balance with his awareness/acceptance/indulgence in that gift that he retreats. Or maybe......??? I've disconnected from a few men, who discovered this power in themselves, explored it, reveled in it.....and then...retreated to the safety of their 'previous' selves ...or were transformed by it.... some in guilt for their indulgence, some in revelation that their gift should only be bestowed on their beloved. Or as one friend wrote: " I have left the garden that is my wife untended for too long." .. you see he (I am not refering to Robert) made this incredible discovery of himself that he would not been able to in full disclosure with his wife. She may never know. But she will have a man more deeply in touch with his soul. Could he have made that discovery with her or through her? Who knows. But the universe gave him a conduit to his own inner self and he let it play out. He is forever changed, I hope, for the better. nd when he chose to disconnect with me he did so openly and honestly and he honored me by honoring my request that he never disconnect without talking to me about it. I will not likely ever hear from him again, and as much as I grieved at the time, he afforded me an oppotunity to understand and honor his needs. These are not things I can put a label on: good, bad, unfaithful. I think we are most unfaithful when we do not pay attention, when we do not collect on the lessons available to us, when we do not allow ourselves to push past our own, or our spouses, comfort levels and become the people we CAN be....not just the people we have become. That is the purpose of a lover: when there is spiritual growth: to push through our own resistence and discover the deeper parts of our being. The despair I feel at these disconnections is balanced by the joy I feel at their discoveries of self, usually. We are all meant to connect....it is always so important to pay attention. > > Robert is a bit of cad, as some of us [females] know....romancing many of > > us...and not entirely honest with Marie all the while. > > All this gives me a sense of *secrecy*. This is quite different > from unknown, and private. Robert and others might be in the > best position to create some openness and health. When you say > you feel sad for Robert . . . is that of do with the death of his > brother, or with these *situations* that reveal them selves here? > I feel some sadness as the silence goes on . . . a slow dawning, > that a straight forward breath of fresh air is not going to come. I have learnt a great many things from my involvement on this list....one of which is that my directness and intensity must be tempored if I am ever to be heard. I am working so hard on this. Or as I told my Director last week...who was reminding me [again] not to push other people so hard (they've given up on trying to tell me not to push myself so hard)....I am doing Nothing, about a great many things, as Hard as I can. That said, I must apologize to Robert for calling him a "cad"...I meant only that his Actions were somewhat Cad-like. And you, Walter, have hit it squarely: the difference between secrecy and private. Robert and Marie chose to go list-public about their feelings. Some found this amusing, some annoying, some boring....and so on. I found it frustrating because I knew, as I think others did, a different truth. My conversations with Marie revealed Roberts dishonesty with her about his correspondences with other women on the list and I found the whole thing nauseating. His cyber-suicide during the dream-list and all that....were painful. But we move beyond it. As for the issues of the death of his brother....to lose a loved one is always painful. As we have lost Stuart and now Steven. But it would seem that they were finished here....for themselves, for others...and ready to go to a place of soul-resting. Robert's loss does not seem as 'immediate' to me in this place....because his brother was not a part of the list. Perhaps I compartmentalize these things, I don't know. It being so close to the anniversary of a horrible accident last year that killed four of our friends, I think I am not allowing myself to connect with those sorrows right now, lest I be overwhelmed by them. It is not surprising that you Walter feel confused by the sadness. There are significant things going on here: the revelation of some secrets on a list that prides itself on its openness and honesty, and the deaths of some list participants. All cause for a time of reflection. Not surprising either, this sudden silence...I suspect folks have retreated to give these things a think, others are bored by this thread and riding it out. And they will either work them out for themselves and move on to other issues, or continue a dialogue. we will wait and see, no? And I think your comments about some things better left unsaid.....about confidences and choosing what/when to reveal... are especially appropriate here. At least in retrospect. Expect that, pardon my redundancy, everything happens for a purpose, and the things that slip around the edges of what we expect, demand, limit, are the things to which we are REQUIRED to pay attention. How else to learn the lessons they provide? > > Not going to come easily anyway. Not bloody likely. > > Robert wrote a while back that we could do many things at once on > this list -- on any list. The present situation points in > another direction. I have many things I want to write about . . > . somehow they seem "hollow" and inappropriate while the current > themes are in the air, while your post and Sheryl's, and others > go unanswered. Doing many things at once is generally a recipe for doing many small things marginally instead of doing a single thing grandly. A gross generality, undoubtedly. Although we have the capacity to Multi-task.....that doesn't mean we have the ability to give those disparate tasks the attention they might deserve. Better perhaps to focus on what is Vital. Or as my guru so often told me: work all of your ideas out to their end. So I may replay the same themes and lines in my poetry until I feel I have "gotten it right". Or I might use the same color or fabric in a quilt over and over until I have exhausted my need of that color. But when I try to scatter my attention I feel knots form in my soul because I have too many things undone....little voices calling me....do me do me do me. Better perhaps to be clear on a few than vague on many. To be resplendent on many things at once requires, I should think, a general realignment of the planets and many more hours to the day. AND...There really isn't much for other people to say, as you have pointed out, these issues are private issues and I suspect most of the list membership couldn't give a damn, and consequently are just waiting for this matter to blow over and they can get on with other things. I hear the distant sound of toes tapping.... > > > I had hoped his > > brief time away from the list would have brought him some clarity. > > I have been hoping the recent posts would have done that. I > think my agreeing to have Robert back, in Psyber-L as well as the > DreamEvent was all based on such hopes. ......like a moth to a flame, eh? > > > I was so angry at the time all I could post was my disgust about the > > insufferable arrogance of men: Robert who maims hearts with his casual > > flirtations, Walter who opens the door to his return with barely so much > as > > an oh by the way to the list. Given a vote I would have cast decidedly NO. > > > Your anger with me here is for neglecting to do the very thing > that I have been saying in this list lately that will make for > temenos, for safety. I hold the key to the door here, certainly > in the DreamEvent I had that key, and here too to some extent. A > responsibility goes with that, and it would seem that there may > have been a better way to handle these matters. Whether there > was or not, the way it went left you feeling at the brunt of > arrogant men. I am sorry that happened. I am certainly much > clearer now of the gravity of some of many aspects of the > dynamics. You needn't apologize. I had a responsibilty to myself to have made my displeasure known, or shut up about it. I walk the tightrope between direct confrontation and cowardly retreat. * sigh *. There was purpose in your actions. Excluding Robert from the dream event would have been difficult, especially with his continued presence on the list....I can imagine it was not an easy decision. Any group is both only as strong as its leader. ...AND...those who would be led.... so you learned, we all did. we grow. > > > And yet. > > > > There is an element of truth in every myth. And as much as I am loathe to > > admit it I think some element of truth in Robert's observation about > > responses to women on the list. > > Is that element of truth re-enacting itself right now in some > way? You had a thoughtful & heartfelt response to your post in > Sheryl's, however the two posts seem to me to have hung in the > air for a good while. They are women's posts . . . I struggle to > respond, to *be* here and not to hive off in intellectual > discussions about the principles involved, and the learning re > list process & facilitation etc. YES YES YES. You see this is the thing that slips around the edges. These are the kinds of issues that when posted by women do not engender much response. It is always interesting. I think, as women, we go too deep....but we are used to men's silences, if ever annoyed by them. Oh, that reminds me of a poem I wrote...let me find it.... in the heart of the man the thorn of love pricks he scratches distracted she invades his dreaming all uninvited into his quiet thoughts in the soul of the man the peace of love shatters he looks questioning she escapes his seeking in her own choosing out of his distant thoughts in the heart of the man the thorn of love pricks he bleeds remembering (c) 12-96 > > > I know I discussed that issue with one of > > the women on the list, albeit in an off-list dialogue. Just a feeling > that > > slips around the edges ... difficult to identify with specifics. > > It is ironic that Robert mentioned this, and also has drawn our > attention to list silence. I think the specifics may have a lot > to do with the off-list dialogues, which he knew about. What > list members do in private email is none of our business. > Understanding the moods and ebb and flow of our list is . . . the > complexity is that they are related. More than that, forming > friendships in the list and so on is one thing, has what has > happened gone way beyond that? First you need to understand that my correspondence with Robert was extremely brief, and I was responding to his poetry, which is incredible. I have not ever had any feelings for Robert, as a man...cyber or otherwise...beyond my anger at his actions toward Marie and the dream list. What was confusing was the manner in which he just abruptly disconnected.....I thought we were enjoying a wonderful exchange of poetry and a casual flirtation. I had been experimenting with writing poetry in French and thought I had found a mentor of sorts. So I was....poetically....disappointed...by his rejection...and since my poetry is at the root of who I am, unusually vulnerable to that disconnect. I guess I crossed his boundaries AND he fell in love with of Marie.....but who knows how many other correspondences he kept up on the side. [so there is, were I being honest a bit of hurt pride....no?]. AND.... It is his deceit to Marie and his willingness to expose her and their romance to the list that is ..... unforgiveable. Had they kept their relationship private that would have been one thing. So there is that tangle of openness and deceit, of public and secrets. Marie trusted him and left herself vulnerable. He violated that trust and thus violated her. Then he waltzed back in and said, hey get over it. salt in the wound. And as a list we accepted this behavior. It mirrors the kind of behaviors women have to swallow in rl. It only serves to remind us that....where ever we go, there we are. Our collective humanity is no different onlist than off...regardless of the masks we wear, public or private. As Wilbur pointed out....these kinds of pairings are always difficult. Splintering off leaves the group out. Because the bulk of the relationship, the pairing is contained within the private dialogue...we....watchers...only see what is chosen to be viewed. Whereas the list is the sum of the list exchanges. Actually, it is more than that because there are always private conversations ongoing in the background. Some of that affects the list dynamics, and some does not. Some are in for a short ride, some for a long haul (thinking of Charles train). When stepping into the middle of a conversation one must listen carefully to ...catch up...[ one of the advantages of cyberlists is the ability to quite literally catch up on conversations already in progress through the perusal of the archives] and the conversation continues with the departure of any one or more of the participants. it is dynamic. usually. There are always those uneasy turns, those lurches in which you grab for hand-holds or are thrown from your seat, crushed against someone else, perhaps. Still the train surges on. Well, my favorite part of the train ride to Manhattan is that thoroughly decadent nap on the ride home. No matter how hard I try I cannot stay awake. and the train gets me home anyway. When I am not paying attention, it goes on without me. When my attention is diverted to what is going on inside, I do not watch the landscape that is ever changing around me. When my attention is diverted to the changing landscape beyond the window, I disconnect from the events and conversations going on immediately around me. > > Is'e, you wrote: > > Friendship is a continuous spontaneous longing..... > > Has this spontaneity been exploited? Have I and some > participants here colluded with that in some way? hmmmm.....I often feel tempted to respond to things....but because I want a dialogue about them...and since that rarely happens with things I post, for whatever reason....I simply don't take the time.....given the small likelihood of response. It comes down to a choice of time-effort: the hours I spend here, with little likelihood of the kind of response I want, might be better spent in correspondence with someone(s) with whom I can be Assured of a generous and meaty response. If I don't write about things this list is interested in, it certainly isn't a 'fault' of the list... but like the proverbial sounding board....when you strike a certain chord...I just have to reverberate. > > > And... > > > > I still believe that women and men experience silence differently. > Require > > silence differently maybe too. Silence herein being a metaphor for lack > of > > feedback/dialogue. > > I am totally unsure . . . I have experienced the last 36 hours or > so as a disturbing silence, awkward . . . yet it may be very > different for others. If you separate the news about Steven from your reluctance to respond to these issues....what's holding you back? I only ask because I am curious. Not intellectual enough? Not enough distanced from specifics... Is it more comfortable to deal with issues in general, rather than in specific? I'm not sure how to ask what I mean.... But I wonder...if I wrapped all this in a blanket of allegory without speaking directly to individuals and events, would it be easier to discuss? There is the difficulty, especially as facilitator, to speak directly about people, lest one become enmeshed in personal attacks. I wish I were more successful at speaking directly to issues. But I cannot, it seems, separate issues from people and so...my.... graciousness with these issues is often lacking. > > > I > > think our explorations, whether in cyberspace or realtime, are required of > > us. Perhaps I have not, as they may have, found the partner who > completes > > me. But there is so much of myself I've yet to discover and it is through > > this medium that that process has been enriched. I do not think our > hearts > > are so small to be only confined to one person. I love.....deeply, > sweetly, > > with great tenderness and passion...I feel neither embarassed nor ashamed > to > > have experienced a deep spiritual connection to people I have never > > "met"...and if that connection resonates in my being and quivers in my > soul > > and makes my knees a little week....it is only all the more delightful. > It > > simply IS. Love is a gift. Passion is a gift. Sorrow is a gift. > Perhaps boredom too. > > Of course and it sounds wonderful. I think we can delight all of > these passions but not if there is exploitation, betrayal, > secrecy and dishonesty. Well, exploitation, betrayal, secrecy and dishonesty are all part of the human condition. We don't get to pick and choose. We take the whole package. or get used to disappointment. > > For me every day is a choice to > > become someone new.....not defined by the past, nor crippled by it....some > > days more of a struggle than others. > > We can't just skip over some things -- and what a release if we > actually finish some things. Funerals if they are good can do > that for a death, lay the person to rest, create a new day. If > they are skipped or not possible then there is a mess to resolve, > and it can be done. Many therapy sessions succeed in finishing > off old unfinished stuff. Cauterising as you say. How is the > healing? Life long process. I have lost a decade or more...not sure I want to recover it....not surprising, I suppose, that a recurring theme in my poetry is time and memory. I had a dream shortly after the dream list ended about going into a museum with my cyberfriend and wandering around lost, confused by doors that wouldn't open, I kept saying, we have to go to the bottom, we have to start at the bottom. Then I was out on a boat with my cyberfriend and we were rowing to a small island. There we entered a building and I kept trying to open the curtains, to let in the light. Everyone thought I was foolish because the room was already so well lit. Well, it spoke volumes to me....I'm sure Anita would have a field day with it. .... about trusting in my own light....my own resources. But I live in bloody dreary gray New England. I long for the light..... > > > > I work in the wireless telecommunications industry... > > > That is a great story and says it all! Well thanks. That means a lot. Here's a another poem....just needed to share it.... landscape you think to know me in words that echo my life in sorrow that reach into the core of who I am resistant and fearful knowing I will resist the temptation the oracle and find freedom in these canyons where the sounds of you distinct and audible repeat themselves again and again in memory in rock that holds the shape of you in its shadow in sounds made manifest on a vague and knowing wind supine on the rocks then neck bared to the ax blow the soft hiss of your kiss the strange prickling along my spine waiting for the transformation day into night dark into light when the blackness grips me when the heat goes into the cold where I was molten and flowing impervious to obstacles now become stone and cold silent abrasive and brittle this is the landscape I imagined in your singing not the cool watery grave not that promise not this this heat that fuses past and present into the ineffable now it is here at last I learn the lesson of stillness and feel once and knowing the wind push against me (c) 1997. The Poet Is'e I thought Anita's comments about Robert's screen persona were fascinating. Made me think on my own. Yseult was an Irish "princess" ....considered to be beautiful, brave, honorable and wise. Although she did not always behave honorably. I come from old Virginia money on my Daddy's side, and poor white trash on my mother's ....and my Daddy's family went through _all_ the money before I came along. Anyway....out of all that I suppose what you get is: breeding with an attitude. I'm not particularly beautiful, although my Tristram tells me otherwise. I am brave and honorable and wise. Albeit I don't _always_ behave honorably, either, I suppose. Or wisely, for that matter, some might suggest. But I < am > very brave, else I would not have survived this long. Is'e _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:49:32 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: poete et philosophe en cyberie Subject: Re: Archetypal projections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, Anita, Wilbur, Sheryl, Delores and Charles, and others, It's time to break the time for listening and thinking about what I hear. If the time seems to have been too long, then that is your perception. For me, the time appears to be to have been just right. I have recently returned from almost two weeks in Europe where I had been shepharding 15 teenagers through culture shock. Since then, I have been busy with accumulated real-life tasks from both worlds of work and home. In these contexts, PSYBER-L has taken a back seat. Perhaps this offers some needed rationale to you for my silence. As for the need to apologize for the silence, there is none offered as none is needed. An archetype, a blend of archetypes. Anita, you have suggested that: > Robert seems to be an embodiment of Seducer, Animus and Shadow > archetypes. I don't know how consciously he has chosen his role > and the email address " Sieur de Cyberie". I wonder why not an > ordinary Smith or Jones. I agree with you about these embodiments of achetypes. The seducer is less a seducer than a bard/poet who finds his roots in old Provence of the twelfth century, the courtier who profers love to his lady "sans" the messiness of the physical conjoinings. This is perhaps the source of the notion of "soulmate" versus the "life-mate" of marriage. My life-mate has been no secret to any with whom I have exchanged ideas, dreams, visions, poems. I am rooted in the earth as I frequent these cyberian meadows, an earth which is complex in its workings upon me. My life-mate has carried the seed of my children, has pleasured and tortured me in our daily interactions as I have her. A union of opposites: I, an INFP and her, an ESTJ; I, a city child and her, a child of the farm; a mating of different cultures and heritage, both bilingual in different languages; a contrast in educational backgrounds (high school vs grad school) which she finds threatening. Animus? More comfortable with the anima which finds its voice in poetry and in gentle caring. Uncomfortable with societal expectations of manliness. And, as a result, sensitive to the voices of women. Perhaps therein lies part of the seducer - an unintended role, an unwanted role. Frindships with males is a problem while those with women tend to become impossible as I am expected to deliver on the promise of the dreams woven by the women who listen to my words, words spoken to myself out loud for the most part, words spoken to the gods should they be listening. An I get caught at times in the projections of anima cast out so blindly. Shadow? Yes, that is deliberate. As well, it is an archetype that others grasp in a hurry so that they can avoid their own shadows. Listen, as I have, to the words of anger, of panic, of regret, of condescension, of rationalization; listen and you will hear the vocalisation of the shadow's appearance, an unpleasant being that thankfully will take on the burden of our personal ghosts -- a cauldron within which any may pour their bile, their grief, their fear. An my name? It was chosen with care, deliberately. Cyberie/Cyberia/Psyberia/Siberia ... a land of raw tension, Jung's land. The extremes of heat and cold, of dark and light, of calm and storm ... a land for the learning of survival. I live two lives: the prosaic life of biology and a life here in cyberie where I can escape those bonds to explore the depths and the heights of who I am outside of my biology of being 5'7", 165 lbs, dark, imperfect of body that is betraying me with the passing years, weakening hearing and sight. In cyberie, I can regain the nobility of my ancestors, perhaps ... therein lies the rationale for the "sieur". Sieur: noble, proud, courtly, gifted ... a shamanic bard. In real-life, the music has been traded for a classroom, the poetry for committee work, the communion with the gods for a rented video. In cyberie, the possible me is given a breath of life. And this is who you have come to see as "Sieur de Cyberie" ... a phantom in the prosaic world of alarm clocks, meals, reports, tears, smiles, boredom, competition and relationships. Charles: Thank you for your words. Of all who have spoken, you have come closest to knowing me here in PSYBER-L land. Merci. But then, you are a poet as well :) I will be quiet for a few more days as I prepare to present marks for my students and as I prepare for an advanced EMS course (I volunteer as an ambulance driver/attendant in our small community). Real-life has first dibbs on my energies and time. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:27:42 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Lists, people on it, wilbs, you name it. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" All Steves death had an effect on me, because it's always a shock when somebody is here one moment and gone the next and you know that they will be silent and unreachable forever more. On a more fundamental level, because it gives me a small sense of my own mortality, and thats always scary. Death seems to me to be frightening only in the sense that there are things I haven't done yet, things I have left undone, theres dirty washing on the bathroom floor, I wouldnt want anybody going through my things, or rifling through the house like a burglar with permission. There are things I'd like to tell Tara, there are love letters hidden under the bath, hidden files on my computer, and the thought that these things would be left to be discovered, they are private things and death robs us of that privacy. it robs us of the dignity of all our secrets. There are people I would like to say I love you to, and those I would like to say, I couldn't stand the sight of you. Maybe I should do that anyway. . Thats what I thought about when I recieved the news of Steves death, that and what a tragic waste it was, yet at the same time I don't think Steve was finding too much peace on earth and maybe its what he really wanted. Nobody can die before their time. What then struck me was the difference in the response to the three deaths that have recently been revealed on this list. The death of Walters friend brought in a plethora of email to the list, to Walter, Roberts brothers suicide solicited the odd mail, and steves death recieved just two acknowledgements. I think there is something to be said here, but just for this once I think it would be tactfull to shut up. When I first joined this list, over a year now, I was about to sign off with some rapidity. The glass bead game was in full and boring flow. To me it was just a quasi intellectual game of tic tac toe. And everybody knows that tic tac toe is pointless. You play it as a child and realise the futility of it by the time you are an adult. (way before that if your lucky) I posted something to the effect that the people on the list were mainly composed of self- obsessed, self appointed gurus, who had forgotten how to communicate in plain English and were way too preoccupied in gazing at their own navels to remember that a real world exists out there. After that there was some improvement. I have on occasion stirred the pot. I have on occasion posted things out of pure mischief which I have not expected anybody to take seriously. Its always amused me and somebody else on the list that for the most part, people have. Lisa and I both admit to throughly enjoying our flame war. It would have escalated but I think we both saw it was upsetting some people on the list who thought we were entirely serious. Bow down Lisa, you've forgotten I am a goddess dear, and I really am going to have to take steps to remind you soon. Steves enthusiasm for whatever I wrote amused me, at times I was tempted to let rip with another load of garbage and see what he made of that. It wasn't malicious, but done because he enjoyed it so much. I enjoyed his accolation. I am only human after all. I am at least being honest. This is the real me. The piece I posted in which I spewed forth a gaggle of words, well I had just read naked lunch by William burroughs and I thought if he can write crap so can I. I think I did it particularly well, in as well as you can write crap like that but I cringe whenever I read it. I would say that maybe 20% of that was the real me and the rest done for affect. Crucify me, I am no saint. Fritz annoyed me, he is another pompous intellectual inclined to verbosity, I have found no evidence of a sense of humour, maybe that comes with the turf. Maybe its the germanic origins that his name implies, the Germans are entirely devoid of a sense of humour, unless its anal. My comments on delipidation seemed to have annoyed him. As though theres no room for the munane on the list, or as though you cannot find a philosophy in anything as trivial as the removal of body hair. After one attack on Roberts sieur de cyberie, poet and philosopher in cyberspace, he left these titles off for a while. I thought they were rather affected as I recall. I still think they are Robert. However that you should think them, or be brave enough to stick them on there, is part and parcel of what makes you an individual in cyberspace, and this is a place for play and make believe and letting loose your fantasys. But you shouldn't hurt people when you do it. I think you hurt Marie, and I think you wounded her pride, because you didn't think about what you were doing. It was as you say a courtly love on your part, of great extravagance and much showing and waving of silken favours. But Maries silence is testament to the effects it had. I don't think your a cad, a cad acts with malice aforethought and deliberation, and I don't think your that type of person. I wish you would give up being a champion of women, I don't need it and it belittles me that you think we should. I don't actually think Robert that despite all your protestations to the contrary that you much like women. I read it between the lines of all your posts, maybe thats the danger of reading between lines. I certainly don't think you respect us. I think its the part of yourself that you least respect too, you have a flowery view of women. We are not "poetry and gentle caring," any more than we are sugar and spice and all things nice. That is not where you will find your anima Robert..that is your illusion of women not what we are all about. Wilbur, I am inordinatly fond of you, not in a sexual way, but in a way in that I can at least understand where you are coming from. You are one of the few people here not afraid to show who they really are, and shove it down for all to see. You also can tell shit from shinola which is a rare gift on this list as well as possessing the ability to play. Lisa knows how to play too.. which is why I have a moderatly soft spot for her too. A couple of weeks ago Delores pretty much asked me to explain God. I pretended to not know of the sexual innuendo of a young 11 year old and her pony. But it's not exactly the truth that I didn't see the innuendo, but more that I didn't feel it. Freud would have had a field day with the "Girl and her pony" story.. but I didn't see it that way. I felt something more. Something different that was coming out of Delores. I can't explain God. As a matter of fact, I believe that believing in God is tantamount of putting humanity second, so the entire idea of God bothers me a great deal. I can't explain death either, and somehow admitting it's existance never leaves me feeling much other than cold. First Wilbur, spell my name right, over the past year I have been subjected to a diverse host of completely wrong, misspellings it's DOLORES. This is one of the few times you have got me wrong. It had nothing to do with sex, which is why as you correctly pointed out you didn't really see it there. The fact I was off to see a horse was incidental. ( It was a mare by the way called Mary) Only men see the correlation between horses, girls and sex. To a young girl of 10 a horse is not even the least bit remotely sexual. Trust me on this. Girls and horses, at least at that age are about entirely different things, the way boys are with their dogs. It wasn't even really about god, but about realising that I had a place in the universe. It was an awareness of self for the first time. An awareness that things were good and a enriching feeling of joy that accompanied that awareness. My question was, had anybody else experienced that? Yes I am changing, because that is the nature of life, and because I have been granted the capacity of learning. I am not set in stone, so I can adapt, I do not say this is my belief, and its a belief for life, and in doing so do not bend, like a tree till somebody fells me or I am gnawed to extincion by beetles. I am more of green wood, that is new and bends and grows. There is much to be said for having convictions, for being a tree, and much to be said for being pliant. Maybe I will one day come of an age where my beliefs and capacity to learn are working in harmony with my chronological age, when I have laid down enough tree like rings, to mark my life, but at the moment no, i change, I grow, I adapt to my surroundings, I either choke beneath the canopy or I flourish in the open, but I have not finished growing, and decided to shove down my roots and say I am a big tree now, I don't need to grow anymore. Maybe instead I have said, I am a bigger tree now..I don't have to struggle so hard to survive. Maybe now its time I bore some fruit, on the other hand maybe I'll just throw out a few new leaves. I miss Susan Swan, she combined in perfect harmony, reason and rhyme. There was a beauty to her words that was not forced, but which came naturally, and it was always a pleasure to read them. She wrote naturally I believe without recourse to thinking what the words would be before they arrived and so they melted on the page and you could savour them. I wish she'd post again. Walter I do think that you have a difficult job, mostly self inflicted and a tendancy to take your responsibilities, the list and yourself too seriously at times. In some respects I see your role as a mother, who gave birth to something and paid for its upkeep, but your not sure what to do when the children become unruly, you panic when they are silent (silent children arent paying attention and generally are up to the most mischief) and trying to keep them focused on what they should be doing is a worry to you. While some of your children see you as a role model, some worship you, some try to gain your favour, others act independantly, and some just won't play with their toys when you most want them to. Like a mother you have the job of watching your children while at the same time trying to cook the dinner, do the housework, clean the kitchen, host a board meeting, and juggle a million other things, while trying to work out what it is that you wanted from having children in the first place. I don't envy you your job. I do think however you should put your feet up once in a while and not worry what the kids are up to. By now you will I hope have realised that this is going to be my last post, the hell I would have posted half of this had I not had the desire to bow out gracefully afterwards. I'll wait till after Steves funeral and leave with him. Walter I'd like it if you took my name off the list at the same time as you did Steves, in a way I'd be leaving with him, which it seems to me would be a less lonely thing, and besides I can't work out unsubscribe. I have enjoyed my time on the list, its had its moments..its ups and downs. I didn't know Steve that well, but it seems that his passing has had an effect on me and the way I see this place, and maybe like him, its time to move on. One more thing, and thats about silence, this isn't freud or Jung, or anything near that intellectual, this is from Pulp Fiction, a movie. In it silence is discussed, and concluded That the most important thing about silence is being able to share it. That there is a greater intimacy in that. Thats not a direct quote I can't be bothered to go hook up the video to go get it. Love Dolores Robert and Maries affair annoyed me no end. >I'm not silent out of respect for Robert. > >I'm silent because of the news of Steven's death and the great depth of >feeling that it has unleashed for me in the past few days. Death, the thing >that God was invented for. > >Friday afternoon I went back and started by checking my old mail for >anything from Steven Murray. I didn't remember who he was at first. >Ashamedly, I realized that when he first came in, I thoroughly flamed him >for speaking in Universal terms about how men where. I told him in no >uncertain terms that individual rights meant that he couldn't speak for me >and my issues as a man. I told him that indeed, in my being a man, he >couldn't speak for me. Then I went back and read over a great number of the >posts that he was responding too and the posts of my in response to his, and >then I recalled the various things that were going on in the list in May. I >ended up reading most of the messages in the March, April may timeframe, and >I realized that I had throughly trashed his poetic waxing on the communion >with his manhood. > >That was all during the time that Robert admitted his love of Marie to the >list. He claimed that he was going public, and Delores went off on men >because of the wound that she had experienced after having an online affair. >I have the intellectual understanding of this media, along with the depth of >understanding of emotional betrayal from my familial upbringing, so I >understood the nature of the the little lies that make the online affair and >cheating on your wife so dangerous. Delores and I both pointed out the >myraid inconsistencies in the gushing, glowing public unvealing of their >love. Delores and I traded email's about how going public typically >included letting your wife in on the deal, and that the list isn't really >the public, and that going public meant more than sharing it with the people >here. > >Delores posted about how men thought only with their Penises.. and in the >mean time both she and I were enjoying thrashing the emotionless >intellectual discussions with raw emotional content.. I brought rage into >the discussion, I nominated Delores in the role of Devil, and she promptly >said that I should be sacrificed.. I noticed that Delores had almost total >anger in her feelings toward men in those posts, and then along came Steven >and fell in love with her. > >Given that I've had to discover the hard way that I was attracked to women >that hated men, I really thrashed Steven for his obvious fawning over >Delores and agreement with the posts that were degrading to men. In the >mean time Lisa, (I'm having a hard time remembering the names.. but it's in >the archives..) posted about how men's penises were to be worshiped.. in >direct conflict with Delores post.. and then Steven jumped in and defended >Delores. > >Now Steven is the name of the man that Delores got involved with that cost >her her marriage.. but that wasn't the same Steven, so not knowing what was >going on exactly, (and the other Steven was hanging around at the time..) I >ended up in the middle with Lisa sending me email that she didn't want to >flame Delores, asking me how to get this to stop. But flaming Delores with >the next message to the list. Delores was sending me email that she didn't >know how to stop flaming Lisa, and that she wanted to stop. But her next >message was a flame of Lisa. > >Steven seemed to be in the middle causing more and more escalation.. so I >finally had enough and twisted every glowing thought that Steven was >expressing into base expressions, with about twice the intensity of the >flames that were going back and forth, ending it with "isn't it time for >this silliness to stop?" > >Delores and Lisa sort of made up, but in the end, I realized that I hadn't >paid attention to Steven's humanity in the rage fest and flame fest, >complete with sexual undertones and innuendo.. Well, it wasn't actually >innuendo, this was so hot that I was forced to ask my then girlfriend, now >wife, if she would be comfortable with me getting into these topics.. When >faced with women that wanted to talk about men's Penises and the like, I >choose, (I believe wisely), to be true to my real life relationship first. >Tamara didn't give me permission to get into those conversations, and I >abided by the trust between us. > >Steven is also the guy that brought up "sychronicity" from time to time. >(At least he got onto that bandwagon.. who knows where it originated from..) >I know that sort of thing, and it's scared me from time to time, I've very >psychic, and I've chosen to turn that part of my off and ignore it because >it brings too much noise and flow into my life. The free association is >something that I have, and I can create a multitude of associations without >effort. I actually need to control that aspect of myself. > >But I after Lisa and Delores sort of kissed and made up. I sent a message >to Steven saying that I had realized that in all of this, that I might not >have treated him with the respect that he deserved. He was happy to get >this message from me and we traded a couple of mail messages about various >things. He spoke, on the list, vaguely about the demons that he had, and >how the being was developed from the childhood experiences. I saw, and >didn't share with him, that I saw that he had demons. Since I had brought >for the Devil here, and brought in the rage, I didn't want to get into >things with too great a depth. I was scared. The honesty that of what I've >shared here and the amount of myself that I posted left me with more emotion >that I knew what to do with. I couldn't stand going in deeper to the >discussions about demon's and the like. I've always attracked the type of >people with demons and in my own attempt to keep positive energy in my own >life, I don't fight as many other people's demons as I used to. > >Steven is also the guy that would post 5 and 6 page messages to the list. I >told him to cut down on the bandwidth, and he admitted that I was right. He >then posted smaller messages for a short while. > >Delores then posted how she had called her pet demon in the closet "Wilbur" >as a child, and had used this demon to terrorize her little sister. I then >teased her that I was going to tell her my own Demon in the closet story, >and eventually told it to the list. That's the story of where I crept >across the room to terrorize my own brother. (This is in the archive..) > >Steven then responded with a message, (which is still in my "to reply to" >queue), that I had done exactly the right thing. That while he was scared >of the dark, the reality was that he had to live his life for himself. That >he had to make up his mind to not be afraid of the demons. He said that one >day he might be able to turn the lights out at night and sleep. I was happy >for him. He had come to the same realizations that I have also come to. He >spoke about deciding to live life without the demons, just just make the >decision. > >I was hoping for support from others on the list, but this exchange seemed >to cause a great pause.. perhaps it was that everyone had migrated to the >Dream Event, who knows..? > >Steven sent me a couple more messages, and the last message that I sent him >was that I just didn't have the time to respond to his messages. That I was >way too busy. I'm really sorry that is the last message that I sent him. > >I hope that Steven's able to sleep with the lights off. > >Perhaps we need to light some sort of candle in Psyberspace for Steven and >all of the others that have passed recently. Walter has spoken about a >funeral, perhaps that's what we need. > >A couple of weeks ago Delores pretty much asked me to explain God. I >pretended to not know of the sexual innuendo of a young 11 year old and her >pony. But it's not exactly the truth that I didn't see the innuendo, but >more that I didn't feel it. Freud would have had a field day with the "Girl >and her pony" story.. but I didn't see it that way. I felt something more. >Something different that was coming out of Delores. I can't explain God. >As a matter of fact, I believe that believing in God is tantamount of >putting humanity second, so the entire idea of God bothers me a great deal. >I can't explain death either, and somehow admitting it's existance never >leaves me feeling much other than cold. > >Wilbur, the demon in Delores closet, is tired of being honest. The honesty >is hurting me too much, and the part of me that believes in God hopes that >Steven stays with us in the ways that he touched our lives, both in life and >in death. The emotional effort to reach these feelings is tiring, it >doesn't always feel bad, but I somehow always feel like I'm not quite where >I want to be, not quite where I can express what I'm feeling, mostly because >I'm feeling so much. Lately I've been feeling that I have enough to say >that I should write a book. Perhaps there's a book right in the archives of >Psyber-L. It certainly brought up a tremendous amount of feeling for me to >read back over the all of the things that I've posted and the responses. > >Walter has been talking about redefining the purpose of this list. When I >first came the charter was too much for me to find a specific purpose here. >Then I jumped in and shared a lot of things that, looking back, I didn't >expect to have shared. I think that a great deal of value has transpired on >this list. (at least it has value to me..). Perhaps the issue now is that >that various areas that are off limits just aren't find voice here, and >that's causing the silence. The emotions are very high, and the amount of >energy to bring them together is exhausting me, I must imagine that it's the >same with everyone else. > >The masking of life that occurs in this medium is a double edged sword. I'm >unable to sustain the level of conversation to maintain the emotional >involvement, yet the emotional involvement is heightened by the inability to >touch and simply be human. I'm happy and dismayed by what I saw in Steven a >year ago, and by what I didn't see in Steven until I re-read our exchanges >on friday. When another Steven that I know died in a very similar >circumstance, I had to think "if only I had.. " since I had known that he >was in pain. But I hadn't found the place inside myself that I could share >with him so that he would be OK. Perhaps better said that he was OK. He >died in a car accident. As many people as I've met that I'd like to help, >the best thing that I've learned is that I have to let them carry their own >burdens. And I have to carry mine. One of those burdens is the repetative >patterns that I see, the sychronicity. I'm seeing too much death lately, I >don't want to see any more. > >I hope that Steven can sleep with the lights out. > >I may leave them on tonight. > >Wilbur >----------------------------------------- > Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) >----------------------------------------- > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:05:02 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kataryn Subject: Re: Walter~~Try To Let Go! ~~ Transformation Walter Wrote: > >We can't just skip over some things -- and what a release if we >actually finish some things. Funerals if they are good can do >that for a death, lay the person to rest, create a new day. If >they are skipped or not possible then there is a mess to resolve, >and it can be done. Many therapy sessions succeed in finishing >off old unfinished stuff. Cauterising as you say. How is the >healing?=20 > Dear Walter ~~~ As a stranger to your Dream Event .... and purposely, not looking at your archieves, for it would to me, become an intrusion into your world of yesterday......... it would appear that everyone has very much broken the silence and each expressed their own subjective feelings. Is it not time to accept the present as it is and move forward? If Robert's words have so inflamed, so must they have also brought much inner positive reactives. Certainly, women understand they can love the poetry, without possessing the poet. It would appear Robert has very honesty expressed himself, as did Charles in his earlier postings, explaining to us that are new here, of the events. Perhaps Walter, it is you that has not healed~~~ you, that can not close the Dream Event. No where has anyone mentioned the parameters and foundation established prior to your DreamEvent. If this was to freely flow, as feelings do, without expectations of" Protection", then is it not now the time to stop feeling you should have "monitered" and "controlled" the flow? Pain is not really the Truth but only what we mortals move thru, to find the truth. Did you promise all participants the "Rose Garden"? I think not! ~~~You are what your deep driving desire is. ~~~As your desire is, so is your will. ~~~As your will is, so is your deed. ~~~As your deed is, so is your destiny. ---Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5 As we gain wisdom we learn the power of transformation. Perhaps you can now move on and we who remain on the list can assist you in doing so. We are the present Cyberian World. When we transform ourselves, the world we participate in will also be transformed. With Light and Energy ~~~~~ Kataryn ~~~Memory Is The Power To Gather Roses In The Dark Of Winter ~~~ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:22:30 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert, I'se, Walter and all... I think there is one more strand in the weaving of events around Robert's departure from the Dream Event which deserves to be brought up to the surface. * On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, I'se wrote, speaking of Robert: > I had hoped his brief time away from the list would have brought > him some clarity. He returned with a kind of unforgiveable > arrogance: his posts at his return all seemed to say, ok, I'm back, > get over whatever it was you think I did. It's the "unforgiveable arrogance" aspect that I want to address here, and first I should say that I got a very similar feeling from Robert's posts on his return. I think, in other words, that Robert may "tend to come off" that way in appropriate circumstances. And what I'm attempting here is to suggest an alternative reading of this apparent arrogance. My most recent clue to this comes from Robert's post of yesterday, in which he wrote two things which particularly caught my attention -- (a): > It's time to break the time for listening and thinking about what I > hear. If the time seems to have been too long, then that is your > perception. and again (b): > Perhaps this offers some needed rationale to you for my silence. > As for the need to apologize for the silence, there is none offered > as none is needed. Both these phrasings -- and I'm not discussing the points Robert was making, just the way his words come across to me -- both phrasings *feel* curt to me, as though Robert has less than the usual level of willingness to admit that (in situation a) other people's perceptions might be valid or (in situation b) that he might need to apologize. And I *think* what is going on here is that *for Robert*, these are actually key issues. I *intuit* in other words that Robert is working on himself in a style which makes stringent demands in these very areas: thou shalt not unnecessarily accept others perceptions of yourself as accurate until and unless you have validated them by finding those selfsame perceptions within yourself, and, thou shalt not apologize for that which others make of what you do... or words to those effects. * When I wrote my long post about the Dream Event a while back, I read (amongs other things) Robert's self-intro to Psyber-L, posted back on Tue, 26 Mar 1996 under the heading "Newbie in Psyberia". And what I found there now rings somewhat differently in my ears: > My interests lay in meditation, philosophy, poetry, and > existentialist counseling therapy. Meditation, philosophy and poetry are things I know about, things I love if you like... so these words make me feel a kinship... And "counseling therapy" is pretty much that way, too. But as I read these words again in the wake of what happened on the Dream Event and what has been happening here on this list more recently, I hear that word *existentialist* as if for the first time. * I'se, it seems to me, laid out the roots of the "anger at Robert" pretty clearly when she told the story of one on-line friendship / flirtation with a married man which contained what she felt was a "clean" disconnect: > Or as one friend wrote: "I have left the garden that is my wife > untended for too long." .. you see he (I am not refering > to Robert) made this incredible discovery of himself that he > would not been able to in full disclosure with his wife. She may > never know. But she will have a man more deeply in touch with > his soul. Could he have made that discovery with her or through > her? Who knows. But the universe gave him a conduit to his > own inner self and he let it play out. He is forever changed, I > hope, for the better. And when he chose to disconnect with me > he did so openly and honestly and he honored me by honoring > my request that he never disconnect without talking to me about > it. and in the same post characterized Robert's manner of disconnecting, which contrasted strongly with her first story: > What was confusing was the manner in which he [Robert] just > abruptly disconnected... I thought we were enjoying a wonderful > exchange of poetry and a casual flirtation. > I had been experimenting with writing poetry in French and > thought I had found a mentor of sorts. So I was... poetically... > disappointed... by his rejection... and since my poetry is at the > root of who I am, unusually vulnerable to that disconnect. * What I'm intuiting here is that the "existentialist counseling therapy" which Robert proclaimed from the very beginning that he was interested in may (a) involve a deliberate and willed disengagement from "that part of a problem which is not my part of the problem" which (b) sounds not unlike my "stringent demands" above and (c) comes across or has the strong potential to come across as "curtness" and in more serious cases as "unforgiveable arrogance". So, first, I want to ask Robert, am I right in guessing that the "existentialist counseling" approach has something very important to do with the way in which you handle the results of your disconnecting from Marie and the Dream Event, somewhat along the lines that I'm suggesting here? And second, if that's the case, can you not see, Robert, with your troubadour courtesy that the curtness of this particular existential approach -- while it may have validity as a kind of tough love, or as a means of cutting away from self-victimization, or refusal to be what the twelve-step programs would call an "enabler" of the projections or self-victimizations of others -- is utterly lacking in some essential and compassionate components of the larger human picture? I am suggesting that you may play the troubadour in inviting projections and the existentialist in cutting them, and that this itself is problematic. I have nothing against troubadours, and nothing either against attempts to get individuals in therapeutic situations to accept their share of the blame for the ways in which they victimize themselves. But while I think that this therapeutic approach is one that may give necessary insights on occasion, I do not think it is in all ways encompassingly adequate to all projective situations. I think, in other words, that simple courtesy, a caring for perceived and felt wounds, and a willingness to apologize humbly and in depth when one has been *instrumental* in causing them are *also* necessary parts of the healing process. If I'm working along the right lines in this post -- and I may be entirely off base -- I think you need to *express* in some detail the premises of your therapeutic philosophy, Robert, and directly address the ways in which it may leave you *appearing* more curt or arrogant than you really are or wish to be. And I also think you might like to invite the troubadour's comments on the existentialist in you -- and suspect you may find, perhaps even to your surprise, ways in which the troubadour in you is the more sensitive, insightful, compassionate and therapeutic of the two. * I hope that this post will have shed some light on Robert and his processes -- and apologize, Robert, if I have totally misread and misrepresented you or the "existentialist counseling" approach. With best wishes, and greetings to poor longsuffering Walter... -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:44:35 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: Lists, people on it, wilbs, you name it. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores, I hope that Walter will not take your name off the list. My wish is = totally selfish. I enjoy your posts very much, I enjoy your humour, your insights, your talent to put into words your thoughts and emotions. I love your way to use the English language. I cannot express my emotions in it,=B4because= it is not my native language. Therefore my net persona is more intellectual and stiff-necked than I am in real life. This may be also the problem of Fritz whom you annoyed.=20 To my mind You are the very refreshing, anarchistic spirit and dissident the list is wanting. But it cant' be helped if you wish to leave. =20 =20 Anita =20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:44:37 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is'e Thanks for your post and poems. You shed light on dynamics behind the Dream Event. In your dream You try to open the curtains to let in the light. I think it is now happening in this list. At least I understand now something. There were so much doors we couldn't open. You said in the dream " we have to start at the bottom". It reminds me of my favorite Swedish poet Gunnar Ekelof=B4s poem Ex ponto. Unfortunately I cannot translate it in English. He says something like this: " You don't make a poem You make yourself You have always to begin at the basis again and again at the basis. The solid basis is this fragment this dismembered hand this broken face" Sorry, I have no more time to do field work with your dream.=20 Anita=20 =20 =20 =20 At 18:58 1997-04-13 -0400, you wrote: >Walter, Wilbur, et al..... >Life long process. I have lost a decade or more...not sure I want to= recover >it....not surprising, I suppose, that a recurring theme in my poetry is= time >and memory. I had a dream shortly after the dream list ended about going >into a museum with my cyberfriend and wandering around lost, confused by >doors that wouldn't open, I kept saying, we have to go to the bottom, we= have >to start at the bottom. Then I was out on a boat with my cyberfriend and= we >were rowing to a small island. There we entered a building and I kept= trying >to open the curtains, to let in the light. Everyone thought I was foolish >because the room was already so well lit. > >Well, it spoke volumes to me....I'm sure Anita would have a field day with >it. .... about trusting in my own light....my own resources. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:56:50 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Lists, people on it, wilbs, you name it. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That goes for me too! Wilbur At 08:44 PM 4/14/97 +0300, you wrote: >Dolores, > >I hope that Walter will not take your name off the list. My wish is = totally >selfish. I enjoy your posts very much, I enjoy your humour, your = insights, >your talent to put into words your thoughts and emotions. I love your way >to use the English language. I cannot express my emotions in it,=B4because= it >is not my native language. Therefore my net persona is more intellectual >and stiff-necked than I am in real life. This may be also the problem of >Fritz whom you annoyed.=20 > To my mind You are the very refreshing, anarchistic spirit and dissident >the list is wanting. But it cant' be helped if you wish to leave. =20 >=20 >Anita > =20 > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:11:38 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: James V Dimmick Subject: psychopomp to all daryl sharp defines psychopomp as a psychic factor that mediates unconscious contents to consciousness. i am not nearly old enough nor do i think of myself as a psychopomp, but i would remind you that all of us have within us a wise old woman or man and she/he needs to mediate some of our unconscious to consciousness. i really have enjoyed some of the lively posts of recent days. and i mean lively because in our expressions we have been very much alive and that is beautiful. regards everyone from jim, the old guy in northern california _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:42:14 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: psychopomp In-Reply-To: <19970413.225706.4655.0.jimdimm@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James, > i really have enjoyed some of the lively posts of recent days. and i > mean lively because in our expressions we have been very much alive and > that is beautiful. I have too, appreciated rather than enjoyed might be the word. I have, as is my style, reflecting on my role here in all this, especially as it has come under kind, and thorough scrutiny. I say my role, but of course it is the role of "list facilitator" that i reflect on in about equal part, which is one of our tasks here. Through all of the lively discussion there has been that reflection on the media and the process . . . that is exquisite work indeed. I have felt on the one hand that i have "hung on too much" and take Kataryn's "let go" on board. On the other hand all of this unfolding and thoughtful work has come about . . . some how, and perhaps i have hung on to some use. A more subtle reflection is that the hanging on is ok, but that i take too much responsibility, and try to clean the shit out of the stable all on my own, and thus inflate my ability and try to be Hercules. Some truth in that, I will try (untherapeutically approved word that it is) to let go. But even here, i think the group is doing the work, I do not feel as if i am a lone hero in the task.=20 The unconscious of the gathering here is becoming more conscious . . . and it is through sharing of wisdom, if that is the psychopomp (what is the etymology of that word!) well done, that is the archetypal force needed. =20 Your comment of encouragment are an important part of the work, thanks. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:52:29 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Lists, people on it, wilbs, you name it. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970414052101.239ff46c@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores, > Walter I'd like it if you took my name off the list at the same > time as you did Steves, in a way I'd be leaving with him, which it = seems to > me would be a less lonely thing, and besides I can't work out = unsubscribe. You know how i *refuse* to create dependency on the list! Would i do this for man? =20 Dolores, am I irreverent at this time you feel grief? The truth is i do not want you to go. If you do go i want you to say more before you do . . . I think you might enjoy reading these posts appreciating your presence, whatever you do, i hope you feel valued here. Walter=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:29:34 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Don Corriveau Subject: WebEd Outcome Data Comments: To: ml@ceus.com, Clinical-Psychologists@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, PSYCHOEDUCATIONAL_ASSESS@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU, CLINICAL-PSYCHOLOGISTS@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, psy-media@listp.apa.org, psycho-pharm@PsyCom.Net, psychoanalytic-studies@sheffield.ac.uk, PSYCHNEWS@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, PSYBUS@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, ASSESS-P@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, NETPSY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, PSYCH-CI@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, COMMUNITY-PSYCHOLOGY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, DEANS@ceus.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ANNOUNCEMENT: Anyone interested in studying the effectiveness of the internet format for Continuing Education experiences is welcome to view our outcome data. All WebEd course participants completed an evaluation form at the completion of each course. All data were compiled and are presented at http://ceus.com/comments.htm (Please excuse any crossposting of this announcement.) Donald P. Corriveau, Ph.D. Provost, WebEd dr-c@ceus.com --- http://ceus.com _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:04:49 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: James V Dimmick Subject: Re: psychopomp walter and all On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:42:14 GMT Walter Logeman writes: >James, > >>from james >> i really have enjoyed some of the lively posts of recent days. and >i >> mean lively because in our expressions we have been very much alive >and >> that is beautiful. > >I have too, appreciated rather than enjoyed might be the word. I >have, as is my style, reflecting on my role here in all this, thank you walter for suggesting *appreciated* in place of enjoyed. i might have deserved a little flaming for using the word enjoyed. >But even here, i think the group is doing >the work, I do not feel as if i am a lone hero in the task.=20 > >The unconscious of the gathering here is becoming more conscious >. . . and it is through sharing of wisdom, if that is the >psychopomp (what is the etymology of that word!) well done, that >is the archetypal force needed. =20 > >thanks. > > >Walter > psychopomp .... soul + conductor all in greek, of course, and i am not what would be called educated except that i had the good sense not to try to become a physician which was the profession of my first wife. the *oxford english dictionary* says further that the name was applied to charon; more commonly to hermes, the anubis of egypt, and to apollo, further, *the other aryan psychopomp ... the cow.* now i expect to hear from the list. james _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 06:59:38 -0400 Reply-To: jfcalder@easynet.om.ca Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: No room at the Inn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, DreamEvent Participants, All I'm new to this list and have been following the conversation over the past few weeks. I've also made occasional posts, as have others. New threads emerge, but die without acknowledgement or response (most often). I can't presume to answer the question of why this is, but I would like to offer how it feels from my perspective. Perhaps others have similar views and in getting some definition of the problem - we can better solve it. I joined this list because I was interested in the topics published. Quoting from the list's description: "Experiential exploration of the psyche in cyberspace. Topics: Leadership skills in email lists, list dynamics, Depth psychology on the Internet. Professional services on the Internet." Since joining however, it feels like all the space is taken by the survivors of the DreamEvent. Unrequited rage towards the "Sieur de Cyberie", unresolved angst that can't be resolved in a public list (as of yesterday this one has 111 members in a dozen countries), and a rather odd belief that there is a dichotomy between real life and net life (I'm the same me whether at a keyboard or with the kids so net life at most is just new arena for rl to play in), are all boiling about so that it feels like there is little space for other topics. Charle's analogy of the train is replaced by an Inn, a play is acted out on the dinner stage and the diners sit silent, alternately repelled and attracted by the power of the play's performers. We'd like to chat but hate to interrupt. Shall we stay or shall we go? It's a big world and there are some bright people here with fascinating perspectives and ideas about it. Can't a way be found out of this impasse so that the exploration continues? Do the members of the DreamEvent need to spend some time in a private list where they can seek resolution? What are the other options? ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:05:19 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Grandpa Bob Organization: Collector of frogs from the swampland Subject: Re: No room at the inn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JFCalder (Jim) Well said! I often wonder if it wouldn't be easier for the group to move on into the next stage of its net-life if "Sieur de Cyberie" ceased to be one of the characters within the "inn". Since I have little time at present for active involvement, it would make sense for me to withdraw and give the remaining list members an opportunity to refocus, to revitalize. You are correct when you say that any attempts to move into new areas seem to fizzle out ... > I'm new to this list and have been following the conversation over the > past few weeks. I've also made occasional posts, as have others. New > threads emerge, but die without acknowledgement or response (most > often). In many ways, the list appears to be stuck, but it really isn't. I wish that it had more room for those like you who float into view and make their presence known as vital beings who care enough to express ideas and concerns. This list has been unsuccessful in moving passed an event that was shared by a limited number on a sister/daughter list group. > I joined this list because I was interested in the topics published. > Quoting from the list's description: > > "Experiential exploration of the psyche in cyberspace. > Topics: Leadership skills in email lists, list dynamics, > Depth psychology on the Internet. Professional services > on the Internet." Yes, this is probably the reason most of us came to this place. However, it seems to have become something else. Walter, has this become a place of group therapy? > Since joining however, it feels like all the space is taken by the > survivors of the DreamEvent. Unrequited rage towards the "Sieur de > Cyberie", unresolved angst that can't be resolved in a public list Hmm-mm ... so you've noticed that too ... With an apology offered in the distant past now, an apology that did little to resolve the anger, I have wondered about the roots of that anger. Perhaps the anger exists not so much because of the person behind the "Sieur", but because of reflections that are mirrored for each of those who are reacting. Perhaps they are angry because of the nature of this medium which empowers each of us yet at the same time shows us how fragile that power is as it is easily turned off by an electrical switch. There has been much talk of trust and "temenos". An image from the dream event had the group contained within a "cauldron", an apt alchemical symbol for the "community" of any listserv discussion group. However, there has been much difficulty accepting the existence of shadow elements within this cauldron. Of course each of us brings our own shadow into any gathering, but it somehow got concretized, externalized, baptized even ... held and contained by the scapegoat, "Sieur". Thus the discussion of archetypes. Temenos can only happen with the realisation that the cauldron contains shadows ... shit ... the stuff of alchemical transformation. James Hollis accurately portrays this in his book (and in the image that the book's title evokes) "Swamplands of the Soul". > Charle's analogy of the train is replaced by an Inn, > a play is acted out on the dinner stage and the diners > sit silent, alternately repelled and attracted by the > power of the play's performers. We'd like to chat but > hate to interrupt. Shall we stay or shall we go? Please stay. I offer my leaving to PSYBER-L as a means for the group moving passed this "stuckness". My words have little effect here other than the stirring of anger and rage. The words themselves often lie stillborn, unheard, unwanted ... as are many of the words of others like yourself who try valiantly to see if life exists in this place, life which has "room" for yet one more. As you stated, perhaps there is no room left in the inn until someone moves out and on. Walter, something has to change here. The survival of this list is at stake. Consider Jim Calder's message and my response. Then, remove my name from the role. I'm passing this on to you as list owner ... make a decision to keep this list alive. Let the list have a good old Celtic wake and thus find a reason to live. Grandpa Bob _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:33:11 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: No room at the Inn In-Reply-To: <3356021C.2AA6@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, =20 > I'm new to this list and have been following the conversation over the > past few weeks. I've also made occasional posts, as have others. New > threads emerge, but die without acknowledgement or response (most > often). I can't presume to answer the question of why this is, but I > would like to offer how it feels from my perspective. Perhaps others > have similar views and in getting some definition of the problem - we > can better solve it. I guess this is one of the questions of list dynamics that it is possible to explore here . . . it is list dynamics that we are in the thick of here. One of the questions is about "room" in the list -- there is heaps of possibility to write, yet what is the problem, why should there be this sense that one cant interupt? (if that is it?) I know i there are many things i want to write about, and just chat about, and yet i have the sense that this is not the time. =20 > I joined this list because I was interested in the topics published. > Quoting from the list's description: >=20 > "Experiential exploration of the psyche in cyberspace. > Topics: Leadership skills in email lists, list dynamics, > Depth psychology on the Internet. Professional services > on the Internet." These things are all very much part of the current themes. My own functioning as a facilitator are being discussed, this is not only a personal thing, it is addressing leadership skills in a very hands on way. I think there are many principles that can be drawn from the work here. However the time for intellectualising, codifying, does not seem to be here yet. List dynamics involve real people, and while we are all in an experiment, and learning experientially, it is clear there are strong feelings involved.=20 > Since joining however, it feels like all the space is taken by the > survivors of the DreamEvent. Not only the DreamEvent. We have been speaking of here and now states of this list, which have origins and history. How a closed list like the DreamEvent effects this open list is part of the exploration of our dynamics. > Unrequited rage towards the "Sieur de > Cyberie", unresolved angst that can't be resolved in a public list=20 This has been mentioned a few times, and I also wonder, however we have come a long way in the last few weeks IMO. Perhaps it can be resolved, perhaps this continued focus on the dynamics, including your contributions, this one, and also the earlier one about the dependency on the leader, are having an impact. If not here then how? > Can't a way be found out of this > impasse so that the exploration continues? Do the members of the > DreamEvent need to spend some time in a private list where they can = seek > resolution? What are the other options? That list is closed and it is true we could reopen it, for those who wanted to be there, and it has been suggested. I am of the opinion that it would then simply be *another* closed group, it could never be the old one, the old one had its purpose and life. One of its members has died, others have never been on *this* list and it is resolving the dilemmas here we are speaking of. Any new closed group would then impact this list in its own way again. Last time this list all but closed as many active people went to the other list. How to set up and facilitate new PsyberGroups (as we have called them) is definitely something I would like to see discussed here. All previous efforts have been complex and difficult. The very first for example was in 1993, we called it ALTERWORLD, a brave attempt to have a group where we re subbed with aliases, and had anonymity with respect to this list. That is something I would never do again, not lightly anyway! Talk of unleashing archetypes! =20 > it feels like there is little space for other topics. Charle's > analogy of the train is replaced by an Inn, a play is acted out on the > dinner stage and the diners sit silent, alternately repelled and > attracted by the power of the play's performers. We'd like to chat but > hate to interrupt. Shall we stay or shall we go? Interesting analogy, metaphor, description of our process. Why is it a play? Could it not be a discussion at one of the tables? I have a sense that the "dinner" is the work of this list, and people who have just arrived at the inn are not sure if the food is OK here. They need to see what will come of the poor beggars who have already begun the meal -- they seem to be having a hard time of it! What the chef or management come up with too will be important. =20 Sorry if I have taken over your image, but if I continue to extend it with my own, then what you are doing is about right. It would be silly just to begin the "dinner" with all the commotion at the other table. You could go, but I am pleased you have not, you have come over to where the commotion/silence is and are getting involved, assisting, questioning . . . just what is needed. I can imagine a time when there will be many threads and many discussions once the dinner is on its way again. How to get there is still a question on our agenda, a "list dynamic" question. A leadership question, the very questions you are asking. I hope others come in on this and it is not one of these times when I am in the centre of the hub again. =20 Walter =20 there is room at the inn,=20 perhaps too much is it safe here? _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:39:44 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: of list silences and dream events In-Reply-To: <970413185820_-1602675152@emout20.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is'e, All, Is'e wrote: > > > Love is a gift. Passion is a gift. Sorrow is a gift. > > > Perhaps boredom too. I responded: > > Of course and it sounds wonderful. I think we can delight all of > > these passions but not if there is exploitation, betrayal, > > secrecy and dishonesty. To which Is'e responded: > Well, exploitation, betrayal, secrecy and dishonesty are all part of = the > human condition. We don't get to pick and choose. We take the whole > package. or get used to disappointment. You are right of course, it is as Anita intimated: If we are to have Oxen then there will be shit. But why should the stable be so full of it? Who can clean it all up? Ideally everyone cleans up their own.=20 It is not that easy. We would not make a mess if we could help it. Again as Anita pointed out we are gripped by archetypes, the unconscious is at play. Psyche in cyberspace, unleashed so easily here. Something is bigger than us. Hence Jim comes in with the notion of Psychopomp -- making the unconscious conscious. That is what all of this is about, consciousness . . . unpacking the projections. =20 Walter=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:40:18 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: No room at the inn In-Reply-To: <33562E1F.2B8@sk.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, All, > Grandpa Bob,=20 Ah.=20 > I often wonder if it wouldn't be easier for the group > to move on into the next stage of its net-life if "Sieur de Cyberie" > ceased to be one of the characters within the "inn". =20 Not really. Perhaps there is room for "Sieur de Cyberie" as well as Grandpa. What do you think of the archetypal perspective on this? That somehow we invite the Shadow in, and that it may not have all that much to do with us? You perhaps embody something that would find its way here anyway, as do I. =20 Was it Marx who said that if we do not understand history we are doomed to repeat it? > Since I have little > time at present for active involvement, it would make sense for me to > withdraw and give the remaining list members an opportunity to refocus, > to revitalize. Grandpa Bob coming in is revitalising. Robert, i know time is really scarce, and if that is the reason for departure or silence, fine. However no-one has asked you to leave . . . I think you *raising* it is vitalising, enacting it would not be. Certainly if we (I) thought that your departure would remove the shadows in the list, or in me in (us) me, that would be scapegoating. I am sorry to hear that you think you are scapegoater. =20 > In many ways, the list appears to be stuck, but it really isn't. =20 True, this is its work, though not all may enjoy or appreciate or value it. =20 > I wish > that it had more room for those like you who float into view and make > their presence known as vital beings who care enough to express ideas = and > concerns. This list has been unsuccessful in moving passed an event = that > was shared by a limited number on a sister/daughter list group. Hmmm, what do you think of my view already stated a few times that it is a here and now situation on this list? (With a history of course) =20 > > I joined this list because I was interested in the topics published. > > Quoting from the list's description: > > > > "Experiential exploration of the psyche in cyberspace. > > Topics: Leadership skills in email lists, list dynamics, > > Depth psychology on the Internet. Professional services > > on the Internet." >=20 > Yes, this is probably the reason most of us came to this place. > However, it seems to have become something else. Walter, has this = become > a place of group therapy? Not quite, but what about Depth psychology on the Internet? Experiential exploration? The leadership questions are just spilling out: what would be adequate leadership in response to your offer of withdrawal? I would ask ever list member to think on that. After all that is the ultimate question for a list owner. When and how to exercise that one power and responsibility they have, being the key holder to the inn door? In a list that has discussing leadership as one of its aims, the questions around when and how to exercise such power, should and would be part of extensive discussion. =20 =20 > There has been much talk of trust and "temenos". An image from > the dream event had the group contained within a "cauldron", an apt > alchemical symbol for the "community" of any listserv discussion group. > However, there has been much difficulty accepting the existence of = shadow > elements within this cauldron. Of course each of us brings our own > shadow into any gathering, but it somehow got concretized, = externalized, > baptized even ... held and contained by the scapegoat, "Sieur". Thus = the > discussion of archetypes. Temenos can only happen with the realisation > that the cauldron contains shadows ... shit ... the stuff of alchemical > transformation. James Hollis accurately portrays this in his book (and > in the image that the book's title evokes) "Swamplands of the Soul". How to work with this shit, how to make it gold, that question wont go away. It may not be a therapy group by intent, but what do we do with the shit? If the list is a macrocosm for our own story, then taking the shit out of the cauldron, removing it, ignoring it, erasing it from the list would be poor therapy. That seems to apply both ways, for those contemplating removal or removing. =20 > > Charle's analogy of the train is replaced by an Inn, > > a play is acted out on the dinner stage and the diners > > sit silent, alternately repelled and attracted by the > > power of the play's performers. We'd like to chat but > > hate to interrupt. Shall we stay or shall we go? >=20 > Please stay. I offer my leaving to PSYBER-L as a means for the > group moving passed this "stuckness". =20 You also know it is not that simple. The quote marks are apt. Your insistence that it is not you per se that is at the root of the difficulties is right . . .=20 > Walter, something has to change here. The survival of this list > is at stake. Consider Jim Calder's message and my response. Then, > remove my name from the role. I'm passing this on to you as list owner > ... make a decision to keep this list alive. Let the list have a good > old Celtic wake and thus find a reason to live. Ah, what a business! What a request, and on the heels of the other one. I have been contemplating Dolores request that I remove her. I am glad I do not make a habit of meeting these requests. *Something has to change here* that is true, but the work on all this is happening, we are having change each day, the resolution is not here yet . . . of course it can come the deeper the shit the brighter the dawn. (grin) Are you familiar with the focal conflict model of groups . . . that there is a central concern, which the group attempts to resolve, and offer solutions to, and which will repeat until an enabling solution is found. Often there are many restrictive solutions offered, which if accepted simply slow the whole search for an enabling solution right down. (I can post some writing I did on this to the web if it is of interest.)=20 I know . . . this is not a group, and it is not therapy, but I am thinking of this model and it seems to fit. Robert, you or anyone, can leave at any time. I am not asking you to go. I can imagine that you might feel hurt here, I think your trust in the list so far however has not been misplaced. I know some of our words are met with silence, others response. That is how it is here, how could we ever keep up! I hope you do not leave out of your pain, but find a way of bringing that here. I guess it means seeing the pain of others too. No, i am not removing you off the role. It is not that i have a blanket policy, it is just that I think it would be very wrong at this point, in this complex moment. =20 I think we can all learn an enormous amount if we can experience the qualitative shift in the dynamics here, the something that needs to change. =20 ~~~ I can't quite put it like Jim the elder: 'I now expect to hear from the list' (I had to laugh), but i would appreciate a continuation of the work we have been doing, people's thoughts and comments, stories poems insights, what has come forth I think has been worthwhile, nothing stuck about it. The discussion & sharing of archetypes, existentialism, leadership, death, love and its shadows, the flowing posts from Dolores and Wilbur, and the thorough attention from Charles . . . I feel privileged to be here . . . =20 ~~~ And if it feels right for other discussions to continue or to start, I hope they do. =20 =46or one, there have been several new people join in the last few days: Welcome . . . certainly hearing who you are, and what brings you here would not be an interruption at all in my opinion. =20 ~~~ =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:14:11 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: No room at the inn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, It seems that "Sieur de Cyberie" has already moved on, since since there's this new friendly down to earth guy "Grandpa Bob" posting.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:34:16 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: No room at the inn In-Reply-To: <33578ba3.133833@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > . . . I feel privileged to be >here . . . So do I. I'm hoping both Robert and Dolores stay. I suppose that there is a selfish reason which is that I can continue to have projections to observe, (such as those that come about when Robert even mentions the word "silence".) It is my experience that both Robert and Charles have become more human to me, as have others. It is in the way that self-revelation works against the projection(s) I unconsciously try to sustain. As far as the reasons that we are here, speaking for my self, this kind of movement is reason enough. It happens at its own rhythm. *But* it must be among the many aspects which seem very odd to many of the 100+ on the list today. *** Is it only me who wonders: *where is Marie?*. And, *How are you Marie doing?* I don't know whether my questions are posed to Marie or Marie-the-symbol-of-the-dream-group. (Probably both Marie s!) *** I've already forgiven Robert for _how he left the dream group_ and also apologized for being harsh toward him at times. I don't have any further desire for conciliation. He's an exemplar of my own psychology in many respects so I learn I like him as I like my self, despite all my misdeeds, especially against women and certainly including my somewhat regressed image of women. Hey, a work-in-progress... I recognize this is among the most difficult stuff *here*. Yet, where else in cyber-space can men and women even discuss the ramifications of instinct and our responsibilities? *** Can safety work against creative tension and humanization? What is our allowance for error and forgiveness? *** Then what is safety given our *falling and rising* natures? *** What is beautiful much of the time about Psyber-L, and unique in that it is part of our purpose *on purpose* is how we struggle depthfully with the depth, which is our depth. I'm reminded that there is a humanized view of glory and nobility which is something about 'after smelling the shit still being able to take in the rose.' Regards to all, HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:26:02 +0100 Reply-To: eva.blomqvist@lund.mail.telia.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Eva Blomquist Organization: The circus Subject: Room at the in ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JFCalder wrote: > = > Walter, DreamEvent Participants, All > = > I'm new to this list and have been following the conversation over the > past few weeks. I've also made occasional posts, as have others. New > threads emerge, but die without acknowledgement or response (most > often). I can't presume to answer the question of why this is, but I > would like to offer how it feels from my perspective. Perhaps others > have similar views and in getting some definition of the problem - we > can better solve it. > = > I joined this list because I was interested in the topics published. > Quoting from the list's description: > = > "Experiential exploration of the psyche in cyberspace. > Topics: Leadership skills in email lists, list dynamics, > Depth psychology on the Internet. Professional services > on the Internet." > = > Since joining however, it feels like all the space is taken by the > survivors of the DreamEvent. Unrequited rage towards the "Sieur de > Cyberie", unresolved angst that can't be resolved in a public list (as > of yesterday this one has 111 members in a dozen countries), and a > rather odd belief that there is a dichotomy between real life and net > life (I'm the same me whether at a keyboard or with the kids so net lif= e > at most is just new arena for rl to play in), are all boiling about so > that it feels like there is little space for other topics. Charle's > analogy of the train is replaced by an Inn, a play is acted out on the > dinner stage and the diners sit silent, alternately repelled and > attracted by the power of the play's performers. We'd like to chat but= > hate to interrupt. Shall we stay or shall we go? > = > It's a big world and there are some bright people here with fascinating= > perspectives and ideas about it. Can't a way be found out of this > impasse so that the exploration continues? Do the members of the > DreamEvent need to spend some time in a private list where they can see= k > resolution? What are the other options? > = > ...Jim Jim I agree with you. You formulated what i fellt about my subscription to this list. But maybe it "is" intrusive to pop in and say hello when someone just have died. I joined this list for the opportunity to learn moore about "cyber space" in a relational way. I think that the rules of RL is present here. Sometimes there are more than one need present at the time. I think about Bion=B4s "singleton" feeling is what we (the new ones) are experiencing at the moment on this list. The ordinary group-process. Well now i=B4m in. I made my first comment ! Eva _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:55:09 -0700 Reply-To: oma1@ptd.net Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: susanne beier Subject: Re: No room at the inn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I am new to this list. Also feel privileged to be here. Am looking forward to sharing information, thoughts and ideas. ---------- > From: Stephen Calhoun > To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM > Subject: Re: No room at the inn > Date: Thursday, April 17, 1997 10:34 AM > > > . . . I feel privileged to be > >here . . . > > So do I. > > I'm hoping both Robert and Dolores stay. I suppose that there is a selfish > reason which is that I can continue to have projections to observe, (such > as those that come about when Robert even mentions the word "silence".) > > It is my experience that both Robert and Charles have become more human to > me, as have others. It is in the way that self-revelation works against the > projection(s) I unconsciously try to sustain. > > As far as the reasons that we are here, speaking for my self, this kind of > movement is reason enough. > > It happens at its own rhythm. > > *But* it must be among the many aspects which seem very odd to many of the > 100+ on the list today. > > *** > > Is it only me who wonders: *where is Marie?*. And, *How are you Marie doing?* > > I don't know whether my questions are posed to Marie or > Marie-the-symbol-of-the-dream-group. (Probably both Marie s!) > > *** > > I've already forgiven Robert for _how he left the dream group_ and also > apologized for being harsh toward him at times. I don't have any further > desire for conciliation. He's an exemplar of my own psychology in many > respects so I learn I like him as I like my self, despite all my misdeeds, > especially against women and certainly including my somewhat regressed > image of women. Hey, a work-in-progress... > > I recognize this is among the most difficult stuff *here*. Yet, where else > in cyber-space can men and women even discuss the ramifications of instinct > and our responsibilities? > > *** > > Can safety work against creative tension and humanization? What is our > allowance for error and forgiveness? > > *** > > Then what is safety given our *falling and rising* natures? > > *** > > What is beautiful much of the time about Psyber-L, and unique in that it is > part of our purpose *on purpose* is how we struggle depthfully with the > depth, which is our depth. > > I'm reminded that there is a humanized view of glory and nobility which is > something about 'after smelling the shit still being able to take in the > rose.' > > Regards to all, > > HooN > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:13:00 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: No room at the inn - build an extension/This list. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear all Well I decided to stay, I got over my meaning of life/the list/and everything phase. I decided the only way I am going to solve the mysteries of the universe is when I finally am part of them. When I was a reasonably small child I sat on the steps of the porch with my uncle, one summer night, just him and me and no need for much conversation, and contemplated the stars. Eventually I pointed to the sky and said, "Have you ever thought what is beyond that.. and then beyond that.." -this was I believe shortly after my great idea to cross a fish with a woman and make a mermaid.. (I hadn't come across DNA and our sex education classes were obviously seriously lacking) but as I sat there he said, "You think about things like that too much and you'll go mad" Well I am taking his advice now and not dwelling on things like how you can be here one day and not the next. My uncle also said, that when you die, eventually the only thing your remembered for, is if you were a good man or a bastard. Theres a truth in that too. My uncle is part of the universe now, as he was dying he begged my Aunt not to let him die. I am sorry he died clinging so hard to life. I am sorry I never told him I loved him, I guess he knew anyway. One of steves friends said to me when I mentioned that it was a terrible thing to die alone, that they believed Angels helped us to die, were with us in the end. That was a new idea for me, its helped me alot to think that nobody is really alone when they die. Course all this is speculation. One day I'll find out, until then I am not going to go mad, pondering questions that I can never answer, I nor the wisest person on this planet, can ever answer things like that, we can at best only hypothosise. Maybe thats what faith is all about. I envy those with faith, since they know what is going to happen to them. I unfortunatly do not. I am thinking of getting faith or religion, but I think God would suss my motives and thats not going to help much when I go knocking on the pearly gates. As to this list, like cyberspace it evolves. It started as one thing and metamorphised (spelling) into something else. Its a bit like cells, dividing, multiplying..being invaded, fighting off intruders, mutating occasionally and whatever else cells do. Draw your own parrallels, I am not shit hot on biology. Like Frankensteins monster, its outgrown its creator, and despite what its creators original intent its taken on a life, a spirit and purpose of its own. I am legion for we are many, is the way I see the list at the moment. You cannot regulate what goes on here, whats written, the context, form by saying that, this is what this list is about. This list has grown, become something that was not originally intended. It has a life of its own, a voice of its own, a silence of its own now. Theres no good saying, I joined this list to discuss what it says its purpose is on the web page. It has evolved beyond that into something far beyond that, to a point where its original purpose has been lost or assimilated by the characters and personalities of the people that post here or have posted here and what their thoughts and ideas, predjudices, desires, hopes etc have actually helped it become. There are too many lists out there dedicated to this or that or the other, but this list I believe is unique in that although it retains some of its original intent, and although misguided newbies will wander in thinking that this list is actually what it perports to be on the web page, it is actually something infinatly more precious, more unique and more to the point more valuable to myself and the individual than the majority of lists I could otherwise subscribe to. That is probably why I am still here. To be honest I could not give a toss about what Jung said or freud said, but I care about how Wilbur thinks, I care about how Walter feels, the enthusiasm for writing Anita has in her soul, and everybody else out there when they leave a bit of themselves behind on electronic paper. I learn from that, and if I do not reply it does not mean that I haven't considered what has been written, but rather that I have not finished considering it, or that I havent had time to reply. The greatest psychology here for me is in sharing, life, experience, sadness, joy, thats what I gain from this list, an awareness of self, through others feelings, because very often things are posted that make me think about something in a way I have never thought about a thing before. I am going to America in ten days time, for the first time, I am extremely excited, and at the same time terrified the plane will crash. It will feel very strange to me to be so close to many of you, well on the same continent anyway, and yet no closer. Going to America is my "Dream event". I am going to Miami, and if I manage to come back, unshot, unmugged, unmolested, unraped or undamaged in any way, I will be exteremely gratefull. This is the biggest adventure of my life, going to a strange country, by myself, with nobody else to rely on but me. I could not have done this a year ago, in a strange way, this list has done much for my self confidence. Thanks for not chucking me off as per my request Walter. This place feels too much like home still. Love Dolores P.S Welcome grandpa bob, theres something reassuringly Waltonesque about that particular name. > >> I often wonder if it wouldn't be easier for the group >> to move on into the next stage of its net-life if "Sieur de Cyberie" >> ceased to be one of the characters within the "inn". > >Not really. Perhaps there is room for "Sieur de Cyberie" as well >as Grandpa. What do you think of the archetypal perspective on >this? That somehow we invite the Shadow in, and that it may not >have all that much to do with us? You perhaps embody something >that would find its way here anyway, as do I. > >Was it Marx who said that if we do not understand history we are >doomed to repeat it? > >> Since I have little >> time at present for active involvement, it would make sense for me to >> withdraw and give the remaining list members an opportunity to refocus, >> to revitalize. > >Grandpa Bob coming in is revitalising. Robert, i know time is >really scarce, and if that is the reason for departure or >silence, fine. However no-one has asked you to leave . . . I >think you *raising* it is vitalising, enacting it would not be. >Certainly if we (I) thought that your departure would remove the >shadows in the list, or in me in (us) me, that would be >scapegoating. I am sorry to hear that you think you are >scapegoater. > >> In many ways, the list appears to be stuck, but it really isn't. > >True, this is its work, though not all may enjoy or appreciate or >value it. > >> I wish >> that it had more room for those like you who float into view and make >> their presence known as vital beings who care enough to express ideas and >> concerns. This list has been unsuccessful in moving passed an event that >> was shared by a limited number on a sister/daughter list group. > >Hmmm, what do you think of my view already stated a few times >that it is a here and now situation on this list? (With a history >of course) > >> > I joined this list because I was interested in the topics published. >> > Quoting from the list's description: >> > >> > "Experiential exploration of the psyche in cyberspace. >> > Topics: Leadership skills in email lists, list dynamics, >> > Depth psychology on the Internet. Professional services >> > on the Internet." >> >> Yes, this is probably the reason most of us came to this place. >> However, it seems to have become something else. Walter, has this become >> a place of group therapy? > >Not quite, but what about Depth psychology on the Internet? >Experiential exploration? The leadership questions are just >spilling out: what would be adequate leadership in response to >your offer of withdrawal? I would ask ever list member to think >on that. After all that is the ultimate question for a list >owner. When and how to exercise that one power and >responsibility they have, being the key holder to the inn door? >In a list that has discussing leadership as one of its aims, the >questions around when and how to exercise such power, should and >would be part of extensive discussion. > > >> There has been much talk of trust and "temenos". An image from >> the dream event had the group contained within a "cauldron", an apt >> alchemical symbol for the "community" of any listserv discussion group. >> However, there has been much difficulty accepting the existence of shadow >> elements within this cauldron. Of course each of us brings our own >> shadow into any gathering, but it somehow got concretized, externalized, >> baptized even ... held and contained by the scapegoat, "Sieur". Thus the >> discussion of archetypes. Temenos can only happen with the realisation >> that the cauldron contains shadows ... shit ... the stuff of alchemical >> transformation. James Hollis accurately portrays this in his book (and >> in the image that the book's title evokes) "Swamplands of the Soul". > >How to work with this shit, how to make it gold, that question >wont go away. It may not be a therapy group by intent, but what >do we do with the shit? If the list is a macrocosm for our own >story, then taking the shit out of the cauldron, removing it, >ignoring it, erasing it from the list would be poor therapy. >That seems to apply both ways, for those contemplating removal or >removing. > > >> > Charle's analogy of the train is replaced by an Inn, >> > a play is acted out on the dinner stage and the diners >> > sit silent, alternately repelled and attracted by the >> > power of the play's performers. We'd like to chat but >> > hate to interrupt. Shall we stay or shall we go? >> >> Please stay. I offer my leaving to PSYBER-L as a means for the >> group moving passed this "stuckness". > >You also know it is not that simple. The quote marks are apt. >Your insistence that it is not you per se that is at the root of >the difficulties is right . . . > >> Walter, something has to change here. The survival of this list >> is at stake. Consider Jim Calder's message and my response. Then, >> remove my name from the role. I'm passing this on to you as list owner >> ... make a decision to keep this list alive. Let the list have a good >> old Celtic wake and thus find a reason to live. > >Ah, what a business! What a request, and on the heels of the >other one. I have been contemplating Dolores request that I >remove her. I am glad I do not make a habit of meeting these >requests. *Something has to change here* that is true, but the >work on all this is happening, we are having change each day, the >resolution is not here yet . . . of course it can come the deeper >the shit the brighter the dawn. (grin) > >Are you familiar with the focal conflict model of groups . . . >that there is a central concern, which the group attempts to >resolve, and offer solutions to, and which will repeat until an >enabling solution is found. Often there are many restrictive >solutions offered, which if accepted simply slow the whole search >for an enabling solution right down. (I can post some writing I >did on this to the web if it is of interest.) > >I know . . . this is not a group, and it is not therapy, but I am >thinking of this model and it seems to fit. > >Robert, you or anyone, can leave at any time. I am not asking >you to go. I can imagine that you might feel hurt here, I think >your trust in the list so far however has not been misplaced. I >know some of our words are met with silence, others response. >That is how it is here, how could we ever keep up! I hope you do >not leave out of your pain, but find a way of bringing that here. >I guess it means seeing the pain of others too. No, i am not >removing you off the role. It is not that i have a blanket >policy, it is just that I think it would be very wrong at this >point, in this complex moment. > >I think we can all learn an enormous amount if we can experience >the qualitative shift in the dynamics here, the something that >needs to change. > >~~~ > >I can't quite put it like Jim the elder: 'I now expect to hear >from the list' (I had to laugh), but i would appreciate a >continuation of the work we have been doing, people's thoughts >and comments, stories poems insights, what has come forth I think >has been worthwhile, nothing stuck about it. The discussion & >sharing of archetypes, existentialism, leadership, death, love >and its shadows, the flowing posts from Dolores and Wilbur, and >the thorough attention from Charles . . . I feel privileged to be >here . . . > >~~~ > >And if it feels right for other discussions to continue or to >start, I hope they do. > >For one, there have been several new people join in the last few >days: Welcome . . . certainly hearing who you are, and what >brings you here would not be an interruption at all in my >opinion. > >~~~ > > >Walter > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:54:28 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Grandpa Bob Subject: Re: No room at the inn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit HooN, Thanks for the vote of confidence :))) "Sieur" has chucked his towel in here in PSYBER-L and has passed on his account to Grandpa Bob / Grandpa Rob / Pépère Robert. It's time to move on to new perspectives and vistas of this foreign land. I wonder which archetype I'm being invested with as I re-approach this community. Probably, it will be one which is more vested in "nature" and "nurture" ... I'm seeing more of the sunshine here in these northern climes, sunshine which lifts some of the shadow elements ... in this season, shit is good --- it's fertilizer, brown gold !!! :: It is my experience that both Robert and Charles have become more human :: to me, as have others. It is in the way that self-revelation works :: against the projection(s) I unconsciously try to sustain. This re-approach to PSYBER-L will show yet another face of myself. This will inspire new projections and new dialogues. And to think that I (and you) are a composite of all our faces AND projections AND shadows AND silences. No wonder the gods have fled in fear of us mortals. No wonder we try even our own patience for understanding each other. :: Is it only me who wonders: *where is Marie?*. And, *How are you Marie :: doing?* No, I think this quite often. I know that she is there, busy with a life that is demanding; busy listening and reflecting; busy in maintaining her silence. I truly do regret my acts which contributed to her decision to retreat into silence here. However, I, you, she, (we) are moving to rhythms of our eternally shifting present tense. We are more than archetypes though we play roles within the cosmos, roles as old as humankind--archetypal roles. Hello again, Marie. :: I don't know whether my questions are posed to Marie or :: Marie-the-symbol-of-the-dream-group. (Probably both Marie s!) And the Marie that is yet beyond our knowing. Even in silence, she is a strong presence. :: Can safety work against creative tension and humanization? What is our :: allowance for error and forgiveness? As long as we have a "voice" and "know" that our voice isn't falling upon deaf ears; as long as being a fallible being is accepted as the "norm"; that is all the safety that is needed. To be deaf to the voices is to abandon them ... :: What is beautiful much of the time about Psyber-L, and unique in that :: it is part of our purpose *on purpose* is how we struggle depthfully :: with the depth, which is our depth. Well spoken! :: I'm reminded that there is a humanized view of glory and nobility :: which is something about 'after smelling the shit still being able :: to take in the rose.' Walter! HooN is right. It's time to tale off the gardening gloves and to mix in the fertilizer with the bare hands, tenderly. Such is the art of the gardener, the husbanding of the earth's soul which finds its expression in the "rose" and the humble "weed". Pépère Robert / Grandpa Bob _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:09:24 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: No room at the inn - build an extension/This list. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970417220832.09176632@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores=20 Great to have you stay, and Robert too it seems, it all feels like the terrible mixed metaphor I used like the dawn after the deep shit. =20 > This list has grown, become > something that was not originally intended. It has a life of its own, a > voice of its own, a silence of its own now. Theres no good saying, I = joined > this list to discuss what it says its purpose is on the web page.=20 I am quoting this to send to Dan, who is on the list but who never reads it. He is the expert on the development of things and people (they are symbiotic) having a life of their own. (I'll put his writing on the web if that is ok with him) Metalife he calls it -- great stuf. > It has > evolved beyond that into something far beyond that, to a point where = its > original purpose has been lost or assimilated by the characters and > personalities of the people that post here or have posted here and what > their thoughts and ideas, predjudices, desires, hopes etc have actually > helped it become. Its true of course, I always say that and then go on to disagree! Solunary . . . I have had this out so many times in my 15 years in psychodrama. (as in 15 years in the church) To have connectivity, friendship, caring and love, some handle like a hand on a rudder is needed to . . . remeber, relate, to the purpose. The use of the thing. Loose it . . . go away from the use, and it becomes a mess. =20 Yet what you say is wonderful: > it is actually > something infinatly more precious, more unique and more to the point = more > valuable to myself and the individual than the majority of lists I = could > otherwise subscribe to. That is probably why I am still here. > To be honest I could not give a toss about what Jung said or freud = said, but > I care about how Wilbur thinks, I care about how Walter feels,=20 thanks, > the > enthusiasm for writing Anita has in her soul, and everybody else out = there > when they leave a bit of themselves behind on electronic paper.=20 I feel that too. =20 > I learn > from that, and if I do not reply it does not mean that I haven't = considered > what has been written, but rather that I have not finished considering = it, > or that I havent had time to reply. The greatest psychology here for me= is > in sharing, life, experience, sadness, joy, thats what I gain from this > list, an awareness of self, through others feelings, because very often > things are posted that make me think about something in a way I have = never > thought about a thing before. Good to hear that. > I am going to America in ten days time,=20 Have a great trip, Will you have email on the trail? =20 > P.S Welcome grandpa bob, theres something reassuringly Waltonesque = about > that particular name. ! Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:14:50 -0700 Reply-To: ddunn1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Doug Dunn Subject: Re: No room at the Inn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JFCalder wrote: > > Walter, DreamEvent Participants, All > > I'm new to this list and have been following the conversation over the > past few weeks. I've also made occasional posts, as have others. New > threads emerge, but die without acknowledgement or response (most > often). I can't presume to answer the question of why this is, but I > would like to offer how it feels from my perspective. Perhaps others > have similar views and in getting some definition of the problem - we > can better solve it. > > I joined this list because I was interested in the topics published. > Quoting from the list's description: > > "Experiential exploration of the psyche in cyberspace. > Topics: Leadership skills in email lists, list dynamics, > Depth psychology on the Internet. Professional services > on the Internet." I joined this list for the same reasons and enjoyed the discussions long ago on Jung's AION. Since that time I have been watching and waiting for something similar to occur. > Since joining however, it feels like all the space is taken by the > survivors of the DreamEvent. Unrequited rage towards the "Sieur de > Cyberie", unresolved angst that can't be resolved in a public list (as > of yesterday this one has 111 members in a dozen countries), and a > rather odd belief that there is a dichotomy between real life and net > life (I'm the same me whether at a keyboard or with the kids so net life > at most is just new arena for rl to play in), are all boiling about so > that it feels like there is little space for other topics. Charle's > analogy of the train is replaced by an Inn, a play is acted out on the > dinner stage and the diners sit silent, alternately repelled and > attracted by the power of the play's performers. We'd like to chat but > hate to interrupt. Shall we stay or shall we go? My question also. > It's a big world and there are some bright people here with fascinating > perspectives and ideas about it. Can't a way be found out of this > impasse so that the exploration continues? Do the members of the > DreamEvent need to spend some time in a private list where they can seek > resolution? What are the other options? > Your suggestions resonate with me. Doug _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:24:51 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: psychopomp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James > the *oxford english dictionary* says further that the name was applied to > charon; more commonly to hermes, the anubis of egypt, and to apollo, > further, *the other aryan psychopomp ... the cow.* > > now i expect to hear from the list. > > > james I have no opinion on the psychopomposity stuff, James, but I personally think it's cool and refreshing to read that someone dares to expect something and actually says (writes) it. Please consider those words read, heard, appreciated and even responded to. Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:16:45 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: No room at the inn In-Reply-To: <33569C14.3A57@sk.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, I think it is a delight to have your Grandpa Bob here. =20 > I wonder which archetype I'm being invested with as I > re-approach this community. Probably, it will be one which is more = vested > in "nature" and "nurture" ...=20 Waltonesque as Dolores put it. I like the movement and the shift that you are making here . . . something of a dawning: > I'm seeing more of the sunshine here in these > northern climes, sunshine which lifts some of the shadow elements ... = in > this season, shit is good --- it's fertilizer, brown gold !!! ~~~=20 What do you think of the idea that we can *endeavour* to be here without archetypal projections? (not that we can fully succeed, the gods are mighty) Is there value in that? As Anita put it, quoting M-L Franz : | "Projections of all kinds obscure our view of our | fellow men, spoiling its objectivity, and thus spoiling=20 | all possibility of genuine human relationships" I feel as HooN does, that by bringing in this new earthy facet of Robert as well as the Sieur (does he have to go altogether?) i am seeing more of you, but the grandpa is a sponge for our projections! I can see the merit in that mind you. =20 How is all this for . . . Robert. How are you Robert.=20 Dolores just noted that she liked to know how Walter feels, that felt good. I would like to connect with Robert, that would give me a sense of fullness in this new emergence. =20 ~~~ > :: Is it only me who wonders: *where is Marie?*. And, *How are you = Marie > :: doing?* HooN, I am pleased you ask this with the acknowledgement that Marie carries projections as "Marie-the-symbol". That is why if find it important to state that I for one value our attempt to go demystify and make the unconscious conscious. I imagine it could simply get too much without commitment to address these matters. > No, I think this quite often. I know that she is there, busy = with a life > that is demanding; busy listening and reflecting; busy in maintaining = her > silence. I truly do regret my acts which contributed to her decision = to > retreat into silence here. However, I, you, she, (we) are moving to > rhythms of our eternally shifting present tense. We are more than > archetypes though we play roles within the cosmos, roles as old as > humankind--archetypal roles. Hello again, Marie. Robert, when you put it like that . . . even though I am still in dialogue with you, and us all, with respect to this whole question of projection and so on, I notice that I have a sense of *relief*. I could simply add, that I too regret my acts that contribute to that silence . . . I don't know what they are, however I know that as the initiator of this list & the co-facilitator of the DreamEvent I have . . . as Dolores put it in different words, set up more than I bargained for. I can't apologise for the gods pushing their way in here. I can't prevent the accumulation of shit. I do know that I have god like powers in being the one who writes the inscription over the entrance gates, and holds they key. Is'e was angry I let you back in with out so much as a . . . something. Perhaps that is what we are doing here mow, better late than never having that moment *highlighted*. ~~~ > :: Can safety work against creative tension and humanization? What is = our > :: allowance for error and forgiveness? Good question. > As long as we have a "voice" and "know" that our voice isn't falling = upon > deaf ears; as long as being a fallible being is accepted as the "norm"; > that is all the safety that is needed. To be deaf to the voices is to > abandon them ... Robert, yes. . . . and perhaps this is not "all". It is major though. In counselling and therapy this is the one thing that all modalities agree upon. It is the core. =20 While fallibility must be accepted, it also, if others are hurt, needs to be challenged. Hopefully we have a loving container, enough other good things going on for that to be possible. =20 HooNs question is a multi-layered little gem though. Can the safety prevent creativity? It is like the questions people ask about artists: If they do therapy will that kill their art? Can Robert the poet be here in Grandpa, or probably more to the point in Robert? to push the question to the experiential level, and out of the realm of theory. =20 No matter how well we create the container, how loving it is and how well we tread the line between acceptance and challenge -- there will be creative tension! =20 ~~~ As an aside, I am working with an organization which has a good feel like that at its meetings f2f. My job is to facilitate the online discussion, and it will be interesting to see if the gods squeeze their way in and create all sorts of projectile wars, ones that are containable in the f2f world. =20 > :: I'm reminded that there is a humanized view of glory and nobility > :: which is something about 'after smelling the shit still being able > :: to take in the rose.' >=20 > Walter! HooN is right. It's time to tale off the gardening gloves and= to > mix in the fertilizer with the bare hands, tenderly. Such is the art = of > the gardener, the husbanding of the earth's soul which finds its = expression > in the "rose" and the humble "weed". God I have had my gloves off (I thought) for some time, I wallow in shit, glorious shit, smelling the roses all the while. Such is my image of myself . . . though I am open to having that challenged, pruned? I laugh as I think of the Peter Sellers movie "Being There". Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:33:19 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: psychopomp In-Reply-To: <199704182227.QAA10462@henge1.henge.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sheryl, >=20 > I have no opinion on the psychopomposity stuff, James, but I personally > think it's cool and refreshing to read that someone dares to expect > something and actually says (writes) it. >=20 > Please consider those words read, heard, appreciated and even responded= to. I think your last post could do with a reply.=20 What do you think? Via the indirect discussion do you feel heard? As Robert advocates in the last post, we need to "know" words do not fall on deaf ears.=20 How can you "know" . . . i don't think we are quite there.=20 I think it can be done though, give and take some human frailty. It is not a case of working harder IMO, it is a case of . . . allowing the psychopmp in perhaps, Making the consious unconscious as well (as Dan put it to me yesterday). =20 Walter =20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 03:02:20 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Metalife Comments: cc: dan.randow@computerland.co.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, I have put Dan's work in progress on the web:=20 http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/metalife.htm We had a good discussion yesterday, which linked all of this in my mind with our work here. It is as if psychological collective forces, are bursting to manifest, and in lists such as this, and the DreamEvent and the AION Reading Group we feel them . . . meet them. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:51:38 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dan Randow Subject: Re: Metalife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter >I have put Dan's work in progress on the web: thanks, Walter. I'm glad you say "in progress" because it is =very= draft from my pov ~ already I have received comments that it takes several great leaps in the 1st para >We had a good discussion yesterday, which linked all of this in >my mind with our work here. it I the links here that is motivating me to write this stuff down. I want to achieve a plain english representation of the guts of what I think is going on (even if I do take multiple quantum leaps) which will be a starting point for establishing links with people such as yourselves who are already thinking about these things and also with people in peripheral fields - online and/or postmodern psychology and organisation information and communication systems. I think the "metalife" notion is central to the field of interest that is consuming me/us. The two areas of practical application - depth psychology on line and information systems in organisations are informed by the central theory. It is my intention to pursue this project down the organisational path. >It is as if psychological collective forces, are bursting to >manifest on this topic here is the link to Marc Pesce's article http://www.hyperreal.com/~mpesce/pdu.html containing the following: === At some point in the recent past - I would place it sometime in 1993 but certainly no later than mid-1994, the noosphere began a irreversible process of self-organization. The first of its emergent properties was none other than the World Wide Web, for it first needed to make itself comprehensible - that is, indexible - to itself. How else to explain a process that magically began everywhere, all at once, across the length and breadth of the Internet? How else do we explain its increasing rush to encompass all human knowledge and all human experience into its un-dimensional expanse? McLuhan wrote of the advent of an age when "consciousness will be piped into the household, much as gas and electricity are today". === _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 03:32:20 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Metalife In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, > At some point in the recent past - I would place it sometime in 1993 > but > certainly no later than mid-1994, the noosphere > began a irreversible process of self-organization.=20 Psybernet began in 1993, and it feels like part of what Marc Pesce is talking about. W _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:35:08 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dan Randow Subject: Re: No room at the inn - build an extension/This list. Comments: cc: Michael Kerrisk , Pru Stone , Julian Carver , Mary-Anne MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (Prudence, Michael, Julian, Mary-Anne, I am copying you in here ~ do you wanna play?) >I am quoting this to send to Dan, who is on the list but who >never reads it. not "never" but seldom and selectively and usually when I "should" be doing something else > He is the expert on the development of things >and people (they are symbiotic) having a life of their own. Walter, I'm flattered. Dolores said >This list has grown, become >something that was not originally intended. It has a life of its own, a >voice of its own, a silence of its own now. yes "it" has, hasn't it! ...and >Its a bit like cells, >dividing, multiplying..being invaded, fighting off intruders, mutating Dolores, I think you have faith and are hot on biology. Walter: >To have >connectivity, friendship, caring and love, some handle like a >hand on a rudder is needed to . . . remeber, relate, to the >purpose. The use of the thing. Loose it . . . go away from the >use, and it becomes a mess. Takes its own direction as its own life begins to manifest itself yes, to navigate in this strange world we must impose structure (or as Dolores' uncle said we go mad) but as I clumsily said in "meta-life" the stage of conscious communication is intermediate to the next evolutionary stage of life in which we are unconscious again. The team of harnessed dogs is necessary to provide for our purposes some of the effect of a flock of geese in flight. Maybe if we all just played our keyboards as if they were pianos and allowed the text to stream into our subconsciouses? Like Mark P's earth song (is that what it's called?) where anyone can join in a chant and it can be listened to by region of the globe (has anyone got that to work?). Dolores says >it is actually something infinatly more precious, more unique and more to the point more >valuable to myself and the individual than the majority of lists [snip] >The greatest psychology here for me is >in sharing, life, experience, sadness, joy, thats what I gain from this >list, an awareness of self, through others feelings this is the primordial soup of the metalife protozoa warmth to all Dan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:51:49 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dan Randow Subject: FW: Metalife in Psyberspace Comments: cc: Michael Kerrisk , Mary-Anne MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt >> Let me know what you think >Looks good. I'll see if i can put it on the web! >I think it is great that we dicuss these things. As you have often suggested, we may as well do it in the list ~ and the consensus seems to be that there are plenty of rooms in the conference centre. >I would lov to link it in with the *experiential* approach. I >know you kow this to be true, and that is an experience . . . yeah, the only reason I can take the quantum leaps ~ experience feeding science is not new in depth psychology (just almost everywhere else) here's how I think it goes (loosely a continuum): * psychotherapy (the experiential group depth kind) * metalife in the online group (the work of psybernet) * the notion of metalife itself (the subject of "metalife") * online interaction in organisations (the subject of the next piece I want to do) * information systems (with an organisational development persepctive) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:53:34 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: psychopomp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, List... > I think your last post could do with a reply. > > What do you think? > > Via the indirect discussion do you feel heard? Hmmm, do I feel heard in this list? Nope, nada, negative. Have I stuck myself out there several times? On the list and to a few through personal emails? Yep, I think so. Do I hear anything via indirect discussion? Nope. My ears/eyes aren't that good. Do I feel like scratching my head and freaking when I post something about my experience in the Family, running from those close connections and the deaths of some of them... asking if there is a connection between that and the Dream Event...and a few weeks later Stuart, unknown to me but involved in the Dream Event dies? Then Robert's brother? Then Steve... who was one of the few kind enough to communicate with me? Then decide Robert can't hog up the whole shadow, try to spread it around a little, and get to confront my own as well? Or then read that Dolores gets to take the trip and adventure that I was hoping for? But decided for myself to trade for a better apartment with even a fireplace instead? But still wondering, what the heck, Dolores, weren't those almost my exact words about wanting my adventure to England? So are you mocking me? But lucky you Dolores with the adventure... I hope it is wonderful for you and I do mean that. Heck, how do I know if I am here or not??? I expect the list to let me know (ok if I take this line James?) Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:19:50 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dan Randow Subject: Re: No room at the inn - build an extension/This list. Comments: cc: Mary-Anne , Michael Kerrisk , Sasha , Julian Carver , Pru Stone , "Karl, Martin and Janet" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just can't stop myself, I'm afraid... >I am quoting this to send to Dan [snip] > He is the expert on the development of things >and people (they are symbiotic) having a life of their own. Walter, you have paraphrased the question it took me 15 minutes to ask at lunch yesterday. I'll try again. There are a couple of notions I would put forward for acceptance at least provisionally: 1 - when people interact in groups with sufficient communication infrastructure, the life form that is the life of the group begins to manifest itself in a "real" way (basically what I'm saying in "metalife" http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/metalife.htm) 2 - when computers are smart and networked enough, it is possible to imagine them starting to behave in a way that is indistinguishable from life (see Moravek on "Superhumanism" http://www.wired.com/wired/3.10/features/moravec.html, Chislenko's Networking in the Mind Age http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/mindage.html and Maja Mataric's Herd of Robots http://www.hotwired.com/wired/4.06/es.herd.html) The question is, are these the same kind of life? and I know the answer: of course they are ~ and more. We see similar patterns of organisation of "inanimate" entities constituting life: * in (my favourite) flock of geese which some will dissect forever to prove it's all physically explainable * in a 1 second old embryo, in any cell or a piece of priomordial soup or any circumstance where we reduce and reduce until we can find something that we can call "not life" btw what is that term that chaoticians use to describe the reappearance of the same pattern at multiple levels of magnification? Looking down the microscope, though we can explain the pieces, we can explain what happens when they get together in systems but we can't explain how. Looking out into the universe we have the same problem. Alexander Chislenko in his Networking in the Mind Age http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/mindage.html says (don't you love his 'pat'ness?): "If we extrapolate the current trends in increasing complexity and integration of the system, as well as its growing spatial spread and control over the material world, to their logical conclusions, we can ultimately envision a superintelligent entity permeating the entire universe, with integration on the quantum scale and many spectacular emergent features. This picture bears a striking resemblance to the familiar concept of an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent entity." _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 06:53:20 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Metalife in Psyberspace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan=20 > As you have often suggested, we may as well do it in the list ~ and > the consensus seems to be that there are plenty of rooms in the > conference centre. Ha! A lake, a sea, a train, Augean Stables, an inn, a conference centre with many rooms. =20 All building our "space" at the same time as it describes it. =20 I am not sure there *are* many rooms for some. One is that all the threads are interconnected. I think this one about metalife, is connected to the theme here about: Projections and archetypes, as well as Dolores's post. And what are archetypes? Powerful patterns that repeat. =20 I think Sheryl's post (Psychopomp, today) and situation here is one of our repeating patterns here. =20 I wrote to you: > >I would love to link it in with the *experiential* approach. I > >know you know this to be true, and that is an experience . . . I saw the link and was keen to have your thoughts on the list. Your perceptions of the life of a flock of geese fitted with the list discussions.=20 Note: I don't expect a reply to this . . . sometimes i do, and If i really do! I will follow in the tradition of Jim and Sheryl. > yeah, the only reason I can take the quantum leaps ~ experience > feeding science is not new in depth psychology (just almost everywhere > else) Experiments are just different when it involves sentient beings=20 . . . Jung always spoke of our inner experience as an empirical fact. Makes sense to me. To see the patterns here we use our imaginative perception -- we see the Augean Stables, and thus link our experience here with one humans have had for thousands of years. Not so different from seeing the fractal manifestation of a flock of geese . . .=20 I'm not talking english, sorry. Dan said today on the phone that Dolores could speak english. Thank god for that. However I like to speak like this sometimes, does anyone get it? It may be a bit male? I don't think it is though as this is all *close to my heart*. =20 As I know this is for you Dan: > here's how I think it goes (loosely a continuum): >=20 > * psychotherapy (the experiential group depth kind) > * metalife in the online group (the work of psybernet) > * the notion of metalife itself (the subject of "metalife") > * online interaction in organisations (the subject of the next piece I > want to do) > * information systems (with an organisational development > persepctive) I know what this means, I'll see if i can say it in english, and speak about my own experience not yours Dan. I am not getting at your style BTW dan, it is fine by me. * I have had moments when I sense I am part of something bigger, perhaps moments like those that Dolores had feeding the pony. I am thinking of moments in groups, when it seems as if we are working with a group mind, one with its own life. =20 * Psybernet is one place where i have experienced this, especially in the DreamEvent, but also in the interplay of various lists, as if part of one symphony, with recurring thames and movements.=20 * Since I was 20 and read Pierre Teilhard de Charin's "Phenomena of Man", which i just happened to find today while tidying up my room, i have had a notion of the *life* of the social order. Of being sought out by competing social - forces - to be used for their ends. Actually Chardin only confirmed something, but he gave me words: Noosphere. I recall being far more secular than him, rejecting his Christlike ultimate Omega point. Perhaps now I'd say I am not more secular so much as more pagan??=20 * Currently I have managed to work professionally with an organization, assisting them in the development of their online communication. It is really an outgrowth of the work here, and while I *have* to speak english there, it is great to have this place to learn in. I think this is one of the careers of the future . . . there is far more to know than how to set up software. Managing the archetypes clambering in between the lines calls for quite some knowledge. Dan I cant quite relate to the last point: > * information systems (with an organisational development > persepctive) ~~~ Note: No response expected or needed. I think there are other important things going on in the list, less theoretical, and part of an ongoing unfolding of life. However I think almost unconsciously, and indirectly I am addressing those. If somehow I am and it seems important then a response would be welcome. =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:34:57 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Adventures in reality -Sheryl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Sheryl, and others. All my life I wanted an adventure, I craved one since I was a child. I sat and watched Tarzan and Scaramouche and King Solomons mines, and I wanted to shout Ungowa at an Elephant and wrestle crocodiles and find hidden treasure, and trek through jungles and escape the restless natives, who were intent on boiling me up with a couple of carrots in their cauldrons while the missionaries backs were turned. About a month ago I was watching a television programme, which dealt with people with terminal illnesses. They were able to cash in BEFORE they died their life insurance policies. So in the last few months of their lives, or however long was remaining, they had alot of money to fullfill their dreams. The whole point of the programme, was that these people were making their dreams come true, whereas the rest of us tend to put off till tommorow what we dream today. It wasn't just the fact they had money, but they had determination, and a reason to live what was left of their lives to the full. They had a sense of purpose, that many of us lack brought on by the circumstances of their health. As I sat there, I thought of all the obstacles in my life, that made it impossible to persue my dreams, no money, a two year old daughter, responisibilites, and then I thought, if I don't do this for me now, when will I ever do it? I don't want to spend the rest of life regretting something, because the only real reason I never did it was because I didnt have the guts, the grit or the spirit of adventure I always believed I had. Time to find out if I really had it, or if it was just one of those things I would like to possess. So working on the principle never love something that can't really love you back, I sold a lot of furniture that I was fond of but couldnt really ever be bothered to dust, and booked a ticket before I could think of a dozen reasons to change my mind. I love my daughter, but two weeks away from her is just what I need..because there is a danger, that I would live my life through her. I could see that happening very easily, I could fullfill all my lifes dreams through her, all my ambitions, all the things I wanted in my life, by proxy. See the world through her eyes..and I want to see them through mine. I am 32, way too young to say well my life is over, it was good while it lasted. I admit I am being selfish leaving her, (this is probably mother guilt) but I think I need a life too, and soon she will be old enough to have adventures, with me if she wants them. I am also eager to see what my ex makes of being a full time single mother. He seems to think its an easy job (evil cackle). Anyway Sheryl, first if you want an adventure, I am looking for a companion. I intend to have a great many adventures in my life and to be an eccentric old grandmother with a few tales to tell in my dotage. (I should live that long, the amount I smoke) You are always welcome in England, if you want an adventure, just let me know and I will pack my bags. I want so much to see this country I live in, which I know so well but don't know at all. I am going to take Tara on her first adventure up north to Bronte country, up to where there are castles guarding the county borders, and the towns are steeped in rich history, this summer. What I realised was, doesnt necessarily have to be an adventure in a far away land, you can also, like Dorothy in the wizard of Oz, find what your looking for in your own back yard. If you'd like to come on that kind of adventure, only takes a plane ticket. (I've discovered courier fares). I have a car, will travel. Next year I am going for broke, I want to go see Machu Pichu, (spelling).. ( I watched a film all about a gold sunburst hidden in the andes, as a child) Not sure if thats in the Andes anyway, but it looks like the kind of place I'd have an adventure. And Ayres rock, I want to see that too, since I think that must be one of the worlds most magical places. (Yes, I read a town like Alice). Have you seen it Walter? When it comes down to it, the only thing stopping me doing all these things, was myself. I am not going to live my life scared anymore, scared of dying, being killed, falling into the hands of guerillas, being run over by buses, losing my passport, any of that "What might happen" stuff. For too long, my only challenge has been deciding what tv channel to change to and from. I want to walk the great wall of china, I want to see the pyramids, I want to gaze on the crumbled snout of the sphynx as the sun sets beind the great pyramids, I want to go to Pamplona and be chased by bulls.. (too much hemmingway), Spain is part of my genetic heritage, and my spiritual one. (I was once a Catholic) I want to go explore it. I want to live a little before I die..or before I try and bury myself again. Course some of these are pipedreams, and maybe I'll only have one adventure in my lifetime, but I will have had one. Nothing stopping you coming with me Sheryl, if you really want to. Love Dolores. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:33:02 +0100 Reply-To: eva.blomqvist@lund.mail.telia.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Eva Blomquist Subject: Room at the in ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim wrote: >"Experiential exploration of the psyche in cyberspace. > Topics: Leadership skills in email lists, list dynamics, > Depth psychology on the Internet. Professional services > on the Internet." > = > Since joining however, it feels like all the space is taken by the > survivors of the DreamEvent. Unrequited rage towards the "Sieur de > Cyberie", unresolved angst that can't be resolved in a public list (as > of yesterday this one has 111 members in a dozen countries), and a > rather odd belief that there is a dichotomy between real life and net > life (I'm the same me whether at a keyboard or with the kids so net lif= e > at most is just new arena for rl to play in), are all boiling about so > that it feels like there is little space for other topics. Charle's > analogy of the train is replaced by an Inn, a play is acted out on the > dinner stage and the diners sit silent, alternately repelled and > attracted by the power of the play's performers. We'd like to chat but= > hate to interrupt. Shall we stay or shall we go? And i replyed: Jim I agree with you. You formulated what i fellt about my subscription to this list. But maybe it "is" intrusive to pop in and say hello when someone just have died. I joined this list for the opportunity to learn moore about "cyber space" in a relational way. I think that the rules of RL is present here. Sometimes there are more than one need present at the time. I think about Bion=B4s "singleton" feeling is what we (the new ones) are experiencing at the moment on this list. The ordinary group-process. Well now i=B4m in. I made my first comment ! Eva Perhaps there are silence on this list? = _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:07:56 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: PsyberGroups [Was: Re: No room at the Inn] In-Reply-To: <33579DFA.706B@ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug, All > I joined this list for the same reasons and enjoyed the discussions = long > ago on Jung's AION. Since that time I have been watching and waiting = for > something similar to occur. ~~~ > > It's a big world and there are some bright people here with = fascinating > > perspectives and ideas about it. Can't a way be found out of this > > impasse so that the exploration continues? Do the members of the > > DreamEvent need to spend some time in a private list where they can = seek > > resolution? What are the other options? > Your suggestions resonate with me. Hi Doug, I have responded to Jim's comments and I am not sure if they, or the latest developments make any difference to what you are saying. =20 PsyberGroups=20 I have a few thoughts about PsyberGroups (closed, focussed, time limited, facilitated lists) that I want to say, and this might be the moment. One thing AION Reading Group and the DreamEvent had in common was that they did not manage to keep within the original time span for the projects. Nor were they able to simply complete the task set. That made them wonderful but also very demanding, of the facilitators and the participants. I found that again with the PWP, another project, intended to be shorter and simpler. I think this is something to do with the complexity of the archetypal forces that come flooding in, many things. That of course is the very strength of these groups and the medium. It has never been possible for a group to dream and imagine in unison like this for months on end. It is as if the dream world just seizes the moment and fills us with its unmet needs. We are experiencing some of that here, but it seems to multiply in intensity and quantity in the other groups. =20 The AION group is in the Psybernet Archive BTW, (it was not a closed group), send an INDEX PSYBER-L command to the listserv.=20 In all these groups there was the phenomena of silence, as well as being flooded and overwhelmed. There is something we still need to understand more fully, accept or prepare people for the phenomena? In the Aion group and also in the DreamEvent there was the coming together of people who had not worked together before, warm-ups from various lists and newsgroups. Perhaps some experience in this list helps. =20 During both those events this list, Psyber-L went very quiet, and was somewhat neglected by me, I could not be in both places at once. For now I intend to stick with this list. How could that be addressed? I have no intention of leaving for a good while, but it is precarious while i put in this sort of work.=20 What of future PsyberGroups? I'd love to see them happen. I'd like to see more discussion of the phenomena raised above. More development of principles of list and PsyberGroup facilitation. =20 Professional facilitation? I am beginning to extend my career into the online world, through assisting organizations to development online communication. I think it would help if we found a way to make it possible to pay for online work. I can do it with organizations because essentially I do the one off work of training them to run their own lists. The work in this list, the DreamEvent or AION I happily do, because I am learning, growing, and managing to do the night shift as a hobby, I don't think that is viable for ever. PsyberGroups if they are rich like the DreamEvent or AION, do require facilitation, and being closed lists, with relatively few members, they would be expensive if they even began to pay a professional fee. I would be interested in learning how this economic question has been addressed elsewhere, and how it could be addressed here.=20 Charles, if you are reading this I'd be interested in your comments on all of this. I have often though it would be wonderful to combine our interests once again, and conduct something together. I think we have learnt a lot through and since the DreamEvent. Then I shy away, working too hard already, and not wanting to shift the focus from this list for a while.=20 Perhaps others would be interested in running a closed focussed group. It might be good to discuss such ideas here. In fact i think it would be great if we heard more about people experiences on the net. ~~~ I have moved once again from the main current thread of life of this list, and again I hope these comments assist that main 'lively' focus, and our overall vitality here. =20 Walter =20 =20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:08:06 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Room at the in ? In-Reply-To: <33589F5D.30C6@lund.mail.telia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eva, Initially you wrote: > I think that the rules of RL is present here. Sometimes there are more > than one need present at the time. I think about Bion=B4s "singleton" > feeling is what we (the new ones) are > experiencing at the moment on this list. The ordinary group-process. >=20 > Well now i=B4m in. I made my first comment ! and then not hearing a response: > Perhaps there are silence on this list?=20 I'm sorry we have not welcomed you in the way that might have been best for you. It is somewhat of a baptism by fire here at times, and I think this somewhat haphazard approach to new members happens at times and not others. There are new people arriving very regularly. Seven since you joined at the beginning of the month. =20 I am not sure if they would wish to be named, one I know has put her put name forward: susanne beier, welcome susanne. At times list members have assisted the "singletons", at times I do. I think the variety is good. Thank you for that interesting Bion word, and it will certainly be a pleasure to have someone aboard with some knowledge of Bion. I have read some of his work, and find it stimulating. > Perhaps there are silence on this list?=20 Millions of them I would think. It is always a mystery and a surprise what it is in my posts that people respond to, if anything. We (though I have no right to speak for us like this) have been listening to the silences intently and fruitfully, thinking of them as authentic responses. I *know* we are read and heard, even in the silence. I read your post, for example, knew you were here, enjoyed the words Bion and singleton, and also thought that perhaps English was a second language? (may be a projection). I am pleased you followed up with your latest post . . . that got me going. Mind you it is a cold rainy weekend here, and I have been home alone, and have been deeply drawn into the realm today. I know I cant be consistently here like that. =20 Hi welcome. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:23:45 -0400 Reply-To: jfcalder@easynet.om.ca Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: No room at the inn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grandpa Bob wrote: > > Walter, something has to change here. The survival of this list > is at stake. Consider Jim Calder's message and my response. Then, > remove my name from the role. I'm passing this on to you as list owner > ... make a decision to keep this list alive. Let the list have a good > old Celtic wake and thus find a reason to live. > > Grandpa Bob > Robert, I appreciate your enthusiastic response to my post, but I'm left with a question. Why at the same time as you moved yourself behind a new persona (an archetypical facade? I betray my bias with this label), did you choose to feature my real name so prominently? ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:37:01 -0400 Reply-To: jfcalder@easynet.om.ca Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: No room at the inn - build an extension/This list. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Randow wrote: > > Just can't stop myself, I'm afraid... I'm glad you can't. This is an interesting discussion and I look forward to participating however duty calls (birthday party for a nephew) so I'll have to wait for another time. ...Jim > >I am quoting this to send to Dan [snip] > > He is the expert on the development of things > >and people (they are symbiotic) having a life of their own. > > Walter, you have paraphrased the question it took me 15 minutes to ask > at lunch yesterday. I'll try again. > > There are a couple of notions I would put forward for acceptance at > least provisionally: > > 1 - when people interact in groups with sufficient communication > infrastructure, the life form that is the life of the group begins to > manifest itself in a "real" way (basically what I'm saying in > "metalife" http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/metalife.htm) > > 2 - when computers are smart and networked enough, it is possible to > imagine them starting to behave in a way that is indistinguishable > from life (see Moravek on "Superhumanism" > http://www.wired.com/wired/3.10/features/moravec.html, Chislenko's > Networking in the Mind Age http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/mindage.html > and Maja Mataric's Herd of Robots > http://www.hotwired.com/wired/4.06/es.herd.html) > > The question is, are these the same kind of life? and I know the > answer: of course they are ~ and more. We see similar patterns of > organisation of "inanimate" entities constituting life: > > * in (my favourite) flock of geese which some will dissect forever to > prove it's all physically explainable > * in a 1 second old embryo, in any cell or a piece of priomordial soup > or any circumstance where we reduce and reduce until we can find > something that we can call "not life" > > btw what is that term that chaoticians use to describe the > reappearance of the same pattern at multiple levels of magnification? > > Looking down the microscope, though we can explain the pieces, we can > explain what happens when they get together in systems but we can't > explain how. Looking out into the universe we have the same problem. > > Alexander Chislenko in his Networking in the Mind Age > http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/mindage.html says (don't you love his > 'pat'ness?): > > "If we extrapolate the current trends in increasing complexity and > integration of the system, as well as its growing spatial spread and > control over the material world, to their logical conclusions, we can > ultimately envision a superintelligent entity permeating the entire > universe, with integration on the quantum scale and many spectacular > emergent features. This picture bears a striking resemblance to the > familiar concept of an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent > entity." > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:17:09 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Re: No room at the inn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter wrote: >Is'e was angry I let you back in with out so much as a . . >. something. Perhaps that is what we are doing here mow, better >late than never having that moment *highlighted*. Ah, I do love 'Freudian typos'! Walter, yours brings to mind another metaphor for what's going on here, one which chimes rather nicely with the talk of gardening, tending roses, earthiness: mowing the lawn! How wonderful the scent of freshly-mown grass, how wonderful its effect of revivescence. I think I am beginning to smell it here, and beginning to sense its revivifying effect. I wish I could write more. Sometimes I feel that I have nothing to say, sometimes that I have too much and not the capacity to say/organise it. But it's good to see the developments happening here, such strong, heartfelt feelings being expressed, exciting ideas being poured into the container... what a tasty stew is being cooked up here (to pour another metaphor into the pot!). Re list health: one of the strengths of this list, I think, is that by and large people write when they have something considered/important to say, not just for the sake of saying something/anything. That means relatively low traffic and periods of list silence, but personally I would rather have that any day than a steady stream of shallow and inconsequential posts (the present state of another list I'm on and am thinking of leaving). As for conformance or otherwise to the list's stated purpose (I was going to say 'mission statement', but I hate that term, it sounds so corporate and artificial/frozen): I think of Walter's list description as a 'strange attractor' for the list, not a set of commandments that must be followed. Seems to me it is all working out okay here, and so much the better for people following their own inner processes, which are, I believe, all parts of a universal process that is beginning to make itself felt. Here I do chime with some of the ideas that are being expressed on the list, in the Metalife thread for instance, regarding emergent self-organising intelligence (I originally wrote 'Matelife' - another Freudian typo, perhaps?!). Emergent in the sense of growing human awareness of it - in fact this 'intelligence' has always already been everywhere, it seems to me. I think this also ties in with what rey has said here about the process of synchronicity. But, to continue along this tangent, for me this is not just about mind but about a much broader and at the same time more integrative conception of bodily intelligence, growing out of Eastern yogic philosophies, Reich, bioenergetics, body-centred therapies like shen and reiki, the process-oriented psychiatric work of Arnold Mindell, and the field known as 'vibrational medicine' which conceives the body as existing on multiple vibrational levels. A friend of mine has a marvellous saying: 'The body will not be denied.' - an important message as more and more people get drawn into the incorporeal realm of cyberspace. Re therapy in general: to me the best therapy would be one that was alive to the mental, bodily and social aspects of our existence. Best wishes to everyone here, Simon _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:37:50 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Adventures in reality -Sheryl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dolores... > All my life I wanted an adventure, I craved one since I was a child. I sat > and watched Tarzan and Scaramouche and King Solomons mines, and I wanted to > shout Ungowa at an Elephant and wrestle crocodiles and find hidden treasure, > and trek through jungles and escape the restless natives, who were intent > on boiling me up with a couple of carrots in their cauldrons while the > missionaries backs were turned. The wild woman, women who run with the wolves, I love it. As a girl, I always pictured myself in one of those Polynesian Islands, the native princess who must sacrifice herself by jumping in a volcano. Or working with Dr. Schweitzer in Africa or later being a doctor on a ship, I think called Hope that travelled the world helping people. My mother, in fact may have bought that doctor dream of mine, forcing (coercing?) me to take Latin for two years in high school. > About a month ago I was watching a television programme, which dealt with > people with terminal illnesses. They were able to cash in BEFORE they died > their life insurance policies. So in the last few months of their lives, or > however long was remaining, they had alot of money to fullfill their dreams. > The whole point of the programme, was that these people were making their > dreams come true, whereas the rest of us tend to put off till tommorow what > we dream today. It wasn't just the fact they had money, but they had > determination, and a reason to live what was left of their lives to the full. > They had a sense of purpose, that many of us lack brought on by the > circumstances of their health. > As I sat there, I thought of all the obstacles in my life, that made it > impossible to persue my dreams, no money, a two year old daughter, > responisibilites, and then I thought, if I don't do this for me now, when > will I ever do it? Exactly. And Dolores, I *do* think this is cool, because it goes beyond the words... not just saying them but doing them. Not just talking the talk, but walking the walk too. It's exhilarating, and I've felt it, it feels alive. > I love my daughter, but two weeks away from her is just what I need..because > there is a danger, that I would live my life through her. I could see that > happening very easily, I could fullfill all my lifes dreams through her, all > my ambitions, all the things I wanted in my life, by proxy. See the world > through her eyes..and I want to see them through mine. I am 32, way too > young to say well my life is over, it was good while it lasted. > I admit I am being selfish leaving her, (this is probably mother guilt) but > I think I need a life too, and soon she will be old enough to have > adventures, with me if she wants them. I am also eager to see what my ex > makes of being a full time single mother. He seems to think its an easy job > (evil cackle). This strikes me as extremely positive for both you and your daughter. How I wish my mother had followed her own dreams rather than stick them on me! How I wish that for her as well as for myself and my sister. But women in my mother's generation, depression, war, etc... what a mess that must have been for them... going to work during the war, being somebody, then when the men came home they were all told to go home, the jobs were for the men. Go back home and just be wives and mothers. Talk about denial of reality! > Anyway Sheryl, first if you want an adventure, I am looking for a companion. > I intend to have a great many adventures in my life and to be an eccentric > old grandmother with a few tales to tell in my dotage. (I should live that > long, the amount I smoke) > You are always welcome in England, if you want an adventure, just let me > know and I will pack my bags. I want so much to see this country I live > in, which I know so well but don't know at all. I am going to take Tara on > her first adventure up north to Bronte country, up to where there are > castles guarding the county borders, and the towns are steeped in rich > history, this summer. What I realised was, doesnt necessarily have to be an > adventure in a far away land, you can also, like Dorothy in the wizard of > Oz, find what your looking for in your own back yard. > If you'd like to come on that kind of adventure, only takes a plane ticket. > (I've discovered courier fares). I have a car, will travel. > Next year I am going for broke, I want to go see Machu Pichu, (spelling).. ( > I watched a film all about a gold sunburst hidden in the andes, as a child) > Not sure if thats in the Andes anyway, but it looks like the kind of place > I'd have an adventure. And Ayres rock, I want to see that too, since I think > that must be one of the worlds most magical places. (Yes, I read a town like > Alice). I'm usually up for adventure :) I think the time will come for me to take that trip to England, and I want to see Stonehenge and feel the ancient places of my ancestors. But right now isn't the time for me unless I win lotto Instead, as I said, I'm compromising a little... but it is for now. To live in a nicer place. I'm also for now going to make my adventures a little cheaper... I've got a great tent, and I'm buying a sleeping bag that will go to 0 degrees and doing a little more discovering of my home. Maybe I'll need to get a big mean dog too. There are places here I'm going, New Mexico, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona and my beloved Nebraska. > When it comes down to it, the only thing stopping me doing all these things, > was myself. > I am not going to live my life scared anymore, scared of dying, being > killed, falling into the hands of guerillas, being run over by buses, losing > my passport, any of that "What might happen" stuff. For too long, my only > challenge has been deciding what tv channel to change to and from. > I want to walk the great wall of china, I want to see the pyramids, I want > to gaze on the crumbled snout of the sphynx as the sun sets beind the great > pyramids, I want to go to Pamplona and be chased by bulls.. (too much > hemmingway), Spain is part of my genetic heritage, and my spiritual one. (I > was once a Catholic) I want to go explore it. I want to live a little > before I die..or before I try and bury myself again. Course some of these > are pipedreams, and maybe I'll only have one adventure in my lifetime, but I > will have had one. > > Nothing stopping you coming with me Sheryl, if you really want to. Or even being challenged by fear of driving down the wrong side of the road :) I also hope someday we can have an adventure together. It's all an adventure to me... to meeting the people f2f that I've met on line to throwing myself into my papers or what I read. In some respects, you are right about nothing stopping me... except where I place priorities and compromise, which we all do. I'm not into keeping a bunch of musty dusty stuff either, that my grandmother and mother valued so highly (and the sad thing is it isn't worth much monetarily after all those years of placing such value in them) I'd rather be like my other grandmother who went to all star wrestling and screamed her head off. My point in asking if you were mocking me, Dolores, pointed more to the fact that I have felt so unheard, unresponded to and unacknowledged... heck, I didn't really even know if you were mocking me or not. Thanks for responding... I understand now you weren't. And I hope the whole time you are on your adventure, your heart beats wildly. :) Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:05:05 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: psychopomp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, All... I'm not ready to leave this, or some of the implications I see in it. There is something about this lack of response on Psyber-L that is just weird to me. As if consideration we show others in f2f realities are somehow suspended in Psyber-L. In real life, would anyone have treated Robert so rudely? How about Holly bringing up generational differences and being virtually ignored? Those are just two examples that pop into my mind. In real life, would a gathering of 100 plus people with common interests stand in front of everyone, make a short speech, which would be followed by 15, 20, 30 minutes of silence? Would anyone else experience that as embarrassment? Especially if the next person to speak made no connections to what was said 15 minutes prior? In real life, how many people would in this gathering defend silence? Is this kind of a preposterous and humorous scenario to anyone else? It isn't the silence to me, it's the non acknowledgement, and in that probably an invalidation of personal reality. > Via the indirect discussion do you feel heard? This was a good question, Walter. I have visions of the Great and Powerful Oz. But, oh oh... open the curtain and he's just an ordinary middle aged man. I have about a billion more questions to ask. But I also have a paper on the ethics of internet research to redo. Trouble is I have no position on it. Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:20:09 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: How do I know if I am here or not??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" You capture my feelings exactly! I remember a time on this list when this was discussed as a "gender issue". I came to the conclusion, privately, that "gender" was only a part ... there was a much larger bugbear in the system. To quote a private email I sent out in February: "Funny ... after I finished writing my last note, I thought to myself, well yes, *are* right of course. Gender plays a huge part of my discomfort ... and my own contribution is to bow out and say "Well, OK, if those are your rules...." "I actually enjoy some of the analytical arguments except, it's funny how the group really does not want to accept even those ... if the messages are too *feeling* there are complaints, then, if the messages are too analytical, there are even more complaints, from people, I might add, who haven't actually contributed. I think the words "feeling" and "analytical" mask the real issues people have -- issues of "stranger to the group" vs. "not stranger" which are heavily drawn along gender lines as well as professional lines (analyst/vs non-psych professional)" --and--- "I joined Psyber_L because I thought I was part of group contribution and creation, not just reaction. Therefore, I am a bit puzzled how nothing has grown here. There is/was a place for both a discussion of any kind ... and yet, I get a strong notion that what is really happening is Psyber_L is listserv turf protected and marked off as if by male cats....." "So, to Wilbur and Robert and others (who so desperately refer to sex and gender in such wonderful sideways ways as if to cut off the real discussion of gender) and to Walter, even, who seems to tolerate gender discussion as, maybe, girl venting ...feeling (rather than objective observation drawn from experience ) I say that the circle is drawn and I am obviously on the outside. There is no space to play, no place to say ..." ----and---- "Well, another *I* voice .... what other voice should (could) we have?" Hmmm. To Sheryl and JFCalder .... yes, indeed, others have knocked on the door, puttered about, and waited months to realize that the list has evolved into the discovery of a few characters' interior lives and interests. Interesting, of course, at least interesting enough to keep my ear to the ground, but not exactly the growing space for the discussion I thought I had come here to join. So it goes. I have no idea if that I am here or not. Wait a second. Is this going to touch off another "Sounds of silence" thread? Argh! :) HBG >Walter, List... > >> I think your last post could do with a reply. >> >> What do you think? >> >> Via the indirect discussion do you feel heard? > >Hmmm, do I feel heard in this list? Nope, nada, negative. > >Have I stuck myself out there several times? On the list and to a few >through personal emails? Yep, I think so. Do I hear anything via indirect >discussion? Nope. My ears/eyes aren't that good. > >Do I feel like scratching my head and freaking when I post something about >my experience in the Family, running from those close connections and the >deaths of some of them... asking if there is a connection between that and >the Dream Event...and a few weeks later Stuart, unknown to me but involved >in the Dream Event dies? Then Robert's brother? Then Steve... who was one >of the few kind enough to communicate with me? > >Then decide Robert can't hog up the whole shadow, try to spread it around a >little, and get to confront my own as well? > >Or then read that Dolores gets to take the trip and adventure that I was >hoping for? But decided for myself to trade for a better apartment with >even a fireplace instead? But still wondering, what the heck, Dolores, >weren't those almost my exact words about wanting my adventure to England? >So are you mocking me? >But lucky you Dolores with the adventure... I hope it is wonderful for you >and I do mean that. > >Heck, how do I know if I am here or not??? > >I expect the list to let me know (ok if I take this line James?) >Sheryl > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:42:08 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "arlene fay s." Subject: Re: No room at the inn - build an extension/This list. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some touching post here! Some people in pain. Some people being hopeful. Hope I can relate to some, finally. I've poured my heart out on the net for a year now (or more, starting with AOL), and I'm getting frustrated with it. I've got to move ahead, and my new therapist may finally be helping. best to you all,,, I'll keep trying to read. I lose the gist of a lot of these posts. Are they over my head? I'm pretty rational, usually. Sorry if I miss any. "No room at the inn" is the one I'll watch for first. I'll do some research if I can, but the time flies when I'm spending it all on the net, and I've got to MOVE soon. arlene. At 03:35 PM 4/19/97 +1200, Dan Randow wrote: >(Prudence, Michael, Julian, Mary-Anne, I am copying you in here ~ do >you wanna play?) > >>I am quoting this to send to Dan, who is on the list but who >>never reads it. > >not "never" but seldom and selectively and usually when I "should" be >doing something else > >> He is the expert on the development of things >>and people (they are symbiotic) having a life of their own. > >Walter, I'm flattered. > >Dolores said >>This list has grown, become >>something that was not originally intended. It has a life of its own, >a >>voice of its own, a silence of its own now. > >yes "it" has, hasn't it! > >...and >>Its a bit like cells, >>dividing, multiplying..being invaded, fighting off intruders, >mutating > >Dolores, I think you have faith and are hot on biology. > >Walter: >>To have >>connectivity, friendship, caring and love, some handle like a >>hand on a rudder is needed to . . . remeber, relate, to the >>purpose. The use of the thing. Loose it . . . go away from the >>use, and it becomes a mess. > >Takes its own direction as its own life begins to manifest itself > >yes, to navigate in this strange world we must impose structure (or as >Dolores' uncle said we go mad) but as I clumsily said in "meta-life" >the stage of conscious communication is intermediate to the next >evolutionary stage of life in which we are unconscious again. The team >of harnessed dogs is necessary to provide for our purposes some of the >effect of a flock of geese in flight. > >Maybe if we all just played our keyboards as if they were pianos and >allowed the text to stream into our subconsciouses? Like Mark P's >earth song (is that what it's called?) where anyone can join in a >chant and it can be listened to by region of the globe (has anyone got >that to work?). > >Dolores says >>it is actually something infinatly more precious, more unique and >more to the point more >>valuable to myself and the individual than the majority of lists >[snip] >>The greatest psychology here for me is >>in sharing, life, experience, sadness, joy, thats what I gain from >this >>list, an awareness of self, through others feelings > >this is the primordial soup of the metalife protozoa > >warmth to all > >Dan > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:51:35 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "arlene fay s." Subject: Re: Room at the in ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Knowledge of Bion,,, and AION. I love to learn:-) arlene. At 12:08 PM 4/20/97 GMT, Walter Logeman wrote: >Eva, > >Initially you wrote: >> I think that the rules of RL is present here. Sometimes there are more >> than one need present at the time. I think about Bion=B4s "singleton" >> feeling is what we (the new ones) are >> experiencing at the moment on this list. The ordinary group-process. >>=20 >> Well now i=B4m in. I made my first comment ! > > >and then not hearing a response: >> Perhaps there are silence on this list?=20 > > >I'm sorry we have not welcomed you in the way that might have >been best for you. It is somewhat of a baptism by fire here at >times, and I think this somewhat haphazard approach to new >members happens at times and not others. There are new people >arriving very regularly. Seven since you joined at the beginning >of the month. =20 > >I am not sure if they would wish to be named, one I know has put >her put name forward: susanne beier, welcome susanne. > >At times list members have assisted the "singletons", at times I >do. I think the variety is good. > >Thank you for that interesting Bion word, and it will certainly >be a pleasure to have someone aboard with some knowledge of Bion. >I have read some of his work, and find it stimulating. > >> Perhaps there are silence on this list?=20 > >Millions of them I would think. It is always a mystery and a >surprise what it is in my posts that people respond to, if >anything. We (though I have no right to speak for us like this) >have been listening to the silences intently and fruitfully, >thinking of them as authentic responses. I *know* we are read >and heard, even in the silence. I read your post, for example, >knew you were here, enjoyed the words Bion and singleton, and >also thought that perhaps English was a second language? (may be >a projection). I am pleased you followed up with your latest post >. . . that got me going. Mind you it is a cold rainy weekend >here, and I have been home alone, and have been deeply drawn into >the realm today. I know I cant be consistently here like that. =20 > >Hi welcome. > > >Walter > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:53:52 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "arlene fay s." Subject: Re: No room at the inn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:23 AM 4/19/97 -0400, JFCalder wrote: >Grandpa Bob wrote: >> > >> Walter, something has to change here. The survival of this list >> is at stake. Consider Jim Calder's message and my response. Then, >> remove my name from the role. I'm passing this on to you as list owner >> ... make a decision to keep this list alive. Let the list have a good >> old Celtic wake and thus find a reason to live. >> >> Grandpa Bob >> >Robert, I appreciate your enthusiastic response to my post, but I'm left >with a question. Why at the same time as you moved yourself behind a >new persona (an archetypical facade? I betray my bias with this label), >did you choose to feature my real name so prominently? > >...Jim There certainly have been plenty of posts going on, back and forth. At least something IS being said, whether good or bad. The list is proceeding, imo. arlene. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:30:57 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dan Randow Subject: Re: Metalife in Psyberspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter >Ha! A lake, a sea, a train, Augean Stables, an inn, a conference >centre with many rooms. > >All building our "space" at the same time as it describes it. building Psybernet's "space" as the individual psyche evolves inside a set of constructs that order its life >I am not sure there *are* many rooms for some. One is that all >the threads are interconnected. I think this one about metalife, >is connected to the theme here about: Projections and >archetypes, as well as Dolores's post. And what are archetypes? >Powerful patterns that repeat. obsession? my continuum... >>* psychotherapy (the experiential group depth kind) >>* metalife in the online group (the work of psybernet) >>* the notion of metalife itself (the subject of "metalife") >>* online interaction in organisations (the subject of the next piece I want to do) >>* information systems (with an organisational development persepctive) yours... >* I have had moments when I sense I am part of something bigger, >perhaps moments like those that Dolores had feeding the pony. I >am thinking of moments in groups, when it seems as if we are >working with a group mind, one with its own life. >* Psybernet is one place where i have experienced this, >especially in the DreamEvent, but also in the interplay of >various lists, as if part of one symphony, with recurring thames >and movements. >* Since I was 20 and read Pierre Teilhard de Charin's "Phenomena >of Man", which i just happened to find today while tidying up my >room, i have had a notion of the *life* of the social order. Of >being sought out by competing social - forces - to be used for >their ends. Actually Chardin only confirmed something, but he >gave me words: Noosphere. I recall being far more secular than >him, rejecting his Christlike ultimate Omega point. Perhaps now >I'd say I am not more secular so much as more pagan?? >* Currently I have managed to work professionally with an >organization, assisting them in the development of their online >communication. It is really an outgrowth of the work here, and >while I *have* to speak english there, it is great to have this >place to learn in. I think this is one of the careers of the >future . . . there is far more to know than how to set up >software. Managing the archetypes clambering in between the >lines calls for quite some knowledge. You got it >Dan I cant quite relate to the last point: >> * information systems (with an organisational development >> persepctive) yes, I thought it was two for a while but take out the od bit and there's just plain old IT - information technology ~ storing and managing the information people need to do their work D _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:54:10 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dan Randow Subject: Personifying Psybernet (was room at inn) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Simon and all I find myself reading any reference to the list now as a reference to the being that is alive here and wanting to use words other that "the list". "Psybernet"? Meet Psybernet. Maybe it would be interesting to think of Psybernet as a person for a while. I know it/she/he's not but it/she/he's also definitely not a lifeless "list". Maybe we can pull the pendulum a little the other way. How about: >As for conformance or otherwise to the list's stated purpose (I was going >to say 'mission statement', but I hate that term, it sounds so corporate >and artificial/frozen): Psybernet is always articulating what she/he thinks but her/his actions seem to imply something more than that. >I think of Walter's list description as a 'strange >attractor' for the list, not a set of commandments that must be followed. She/he seems to have this passionate impluse... >Seems to me it is all working out okay here, and so much the better for >people following their own inner processes, which are, I believe, all parts >of a universal process that is beginning to make itself felt. .. to live in fullness and awareness ~ to be open to the universe an alive to her/his own responses. >emergent self-organising intelligence Psybernet >(I originally wrote 'Matelife' - another Freudian typo, perhaps?!). is given birth to by the ongoing existence of a group > Emergent in the sense of growing human awareness of it that is just meeting her/him now >- in fact this 'intelligence' has always already been everywhere with a (not so) strange sense of recognition >this is not just about mind but about a much broader and at the same time >more integrative conception of bodily intelligence, growing out of Eastern >yogic philosophies, Reich, bioenergetics, body-centred therapies like shen >and reiki, the process-oriented psychiatric work of Arnold Mindell, and the >field known as 'vibrational medicine' which conceives the body as existing >on multiple vibrational levels. >'The body will not be denied.' - an important message as more and more >people get drawn into the incorporeal realm of cyberspace. As we get to know Psybernet better, we hunger to meet her/him physically ~ we hunger to hang on to our corporeal appreciation of the world ~ we tinker with all our bodies' buttons and dials to try to get it to transport us into the out-of-body world ~ but we know we must let go ~ we massage and love Psybernet's body (the words and processes in the list) and we marvel at the magic and life we feel under our fingers Dan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:00:55 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dan Randow Subject: Re: No room at the inn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Simon, other group members and Psybernet >Re therapy in general: to me the best therapy would be one that was alive >to the mental, bodily and social aspects of our existence. Me too and I found this the best in psychodrama. In psychodrama we speak in terms of roles which have thinking, feeling and acting aspects. I have always thought there is a fourth ~ spiritual (for want of a better word). Acting (on the psychodramatic) stage elicits spontaneous manifestations of inner state ~ the mingling of the here and now and the gaian life (please excuse that terrible word) > the body as existing on multiple vibrational levels Dan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:21:01 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Grandpa Bob Organization: Collector of frogs from the swampland Subject: Re: No room at the inn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JFCalder, aka Jim, > Robert, I appreciate your enthusiastic response to my post, but > I'm left with a question. Why at the same time as you moved > yourself behind a new persona (an archetypical facade? I betray > my bias with this label), did you choose to feature my real name > so prominently? > > ...Jim The new name is no "facade", it's the real thing. A number of my colleagues and not a few relatives have christened me with that name after the birth of my grandson. It joins the list of other aka's such as "Father Bob" the counsellor, "petit Robert" by fellow francophone teachers, "le Coach" by my runners in training, "Sieur de Cyberie" my sense of self in cyberself, and Robert Longpr=E9 to the rest of the world. As for using your "real name" (all of the above are "real"), it was meant as a means for avoiding confusion in the reception, confusion that was seen as potential at least within me. In PSYBER-L, there are other "Jim's", notably "Jim the Elder" and "Jim the Younger", fellow participants of the DreamEvent. Would "JFCalder" be better than "Jim Calder"? I would prefer speaking with you on your terms :) Grandpa Bob / P=E9p=E8re Robert _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:02:27 -0400 Reply-To: jfcalder@easynet.om.ca Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: No room at the inn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Grandpa Bob wrote: > = > The new name is no "facade", it's the real thing. A number of = my > colleagues and not a few relatives have christened me with that name > after the birth of my grandson. It joins the list of other aka's such = as > "Father Bob" the counsellor, "petit Robert" by fellow francophone > teachers, "le Coach" by my runners in training, "Sieur de Cyberie" my > sense of self in cyberself, and Robert Longpr=E9 to the rest of the wor= ld. > = > As for using your "real name" (all of the above are "real"), it= > was meant as a means for avoiding confusion in the reception, confusion= > that was seen as potential at least within me. In PSYBER-L, there are > other "Jim's", notably "Jim the Elder" and "Jim the Younger", fellow > participants of the DreamEvent. Would "JFCalder" be better than "Jim > Calder"? I would prefer speaking with you on your terms :) > = > Grandpa Bob / P=E9p=E8re Robert > = Thanks for the explanation Robert. I can appreciate the need to avoid confusion re. who is speaking and I didn't realize there were so many "Jim's" here. Your point is well taken that all the names are "real" in that they all exist. Each has its relevance to a particular environment and the audience within that environment (I must point out here that I write these words re. the nature of reality with great fear and loathing , I am NOT looking for a debate on "what is real?" ). In psyber-L I had known you only as Sieur (who everyone addressed as Robert) and without Walter's quick reply to your post, I wouldn't have known that "Robert", "Sieur" and "Grandpa Bob" were all the same person. It left me feeling as if I had been lied to - hence my question re. your motivation. = Re. what on what terms to address me, that's a tough question, I've mostly been just Jim, call me James and I think I'm in trouble (sorry Mom), call me Mr.Calder and I think my Dad's standing behind me, call me Jimmy and you better have been a hockey team mate. Nicknames have been Compy, Swami, Qtip,Losai and Jerk (hard to believe I know) but each of these only had meaning with particular groups at particular times. In psyber-L, call me Jim and its a multiple guess question who I am. How's "JimC"? =2E..JimC _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:14:20 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Adventures in reality -Sheryl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Sheryl Unfortunatly my motivations were slightly less altruistic, I wanted to be swept off my feet by Clark Gable under a steaming Jungle canopy, right after he had beaten off a lion with his bare hands, and stopped me from treading on the lethally venemous mamba half hidden in the undergrowth. As for doctors, I would have of course wanted to seduce them with my brave and uncomplaining spirit as I lay prostrate with Malaria, while they they mopped my fevered brow and were all frightfully in charge and debonair, while the ship chugged relentlessly towards Marakesh or some other equally exotic port of call. Sacrificing myself to a volcano, would have not run high on my list of priorities, unless of course I did it for love, which would be terribly melodramatic and tragic, as my lei bubbled on the top of a vat of molten lava in the final scene, and possibly my arm reached skywards in a forlorn gesture as I immolated myself gracefully. My lifes been tainted by too many Humphry Bogart, Bette Davis films. >Exactly. And Dolores, I *do* think this is cool, because it goes beyond >the words... not just saying them but doing them. Not just talking the >talk, but walking the walk too. It's exhilarating, and I've felt it, it >feels alive. Feeling alive, its a wonderfull feeling. Sometimes I get it in the most curious places, and I just want to go mad like a march hare, and jump around and just delight in the fact that life is mine. Its what makes the days when I have just gone through the motions bearable. Its like recharging your batteries to see you through the next attack of the doldrums. I have a insane desire at times to go dance in the garden, but as my neighbours are terribly british and possibly already looking for an excuse to have me committed, I really don't dare. >This strikes me as extremely positive for both you and your daughter. How >I wish my mother had followed her own dreams rather than stick them on me! >How I wish that for her as well as for myself and my sister. But women in >my mother's generation, depression, war, etc... what a mess that must have >been for them... going to work during the war, being somebody, then when >the men came home they were all told to go home, the jobs were for the men. > Go back home and just be wives and mothers. Talk about denial of reality! What were your mothers dreams? Sometimes I wish I was close enough to my mother to ask her what hers were, or if she still has any. What are your dreams now? Everybody should have dreams, without the persuit of the unobtainable or seemingly unreachable, life would have little challenge. >I'm usually up for adventure :) I think the time will come for me to take >that trip to England, and I want to see Stonehenge and feel the ancient >places of my ancestors. But right now isn't the time for me unless I win >lotto Instead, as I said, I'm compromising a little... but it is >for now. To live in a nicer place. I'm also for now going to make my >adventures a little cheaper... I've got a great tent, and I'm buying a >sleeping bag that will go to 0 degrees and doing a little more discovering >of my home. Maybe I'll need to get a big mean dog too. There are places >here I'm going, New Mexico, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona and my beloved Nebraska. I love the idea of you huddled at 0 degrees in your sleeping bag, trusty dog by your side, it sounds like true adventure. Don't forget to check your shoes for scorpions in the morning. (maybe all those steamy adventure films I loved as a kid werent such a waste of time - Never look a gorrilla in the eye, and stand your ground when he charges.) I won't burst your bubble about stonehenge. Its the least mystical place on earth and was a great disapointment when I was last there. The smell of the chip fat from the roadside canteen kind of destroyed the arcane atmosphere, as did the fact that some bright spark erected the flourescant blue portaloos within photographing distance of the stones. For real magic go to Glastonbury Tor, which is not that far away and where King Arthur is supposed to have done his stuff. When I win the lottery, I promise to buy you and me a ticket to adventure. >My point in asking if you were mocking me, Dolores, pointed more to the >fact that I have felt so unheard, unresponded to and unacknowledged... >heck, I didn't really even know if you were mocking me or not. Thanks for >responding... I understand now you weren't. Well I am enjoying this conversation and to hell with anybody else that doesnt. I am often reminded of the people that complain of something on the television because it was offensive to them in some way or another, yet who seem not to have noticed the fact there is an off switch. (or in the case of eudora, trash) So anybody who doesnt like this..tough, post something of more interest, or hit the trash can. And no not mocking you, but understanding completely where you were coming from. Maybe I even took a little inspiration from your post. In fact I have been guilty of not responding to posts when I really wanted to, because I have filed them in the to do, bit and then forgotten to do them. And by the time I got round to do, it was to late to have done. And I hope the whole time you are on your adventure, your heart beats >wildly. :) > >Its going to beat with the ferocity of native drum, resonating so loudly through the americas, they'll hear it pounding in their ears all the way in the congo. Love Dolores _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:28:48 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Emergent properties..hi Dan. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Dan etc.. Well you lost me and you have no hope of finding me in this thread. Anyway occasionally I have the urge to seem all intellectual so I can drop a few cluey words into a conversation and then hope nobody asks me what I mean. So I dive into the most curious things, I found this and I like it and I think it fits the general thread. I think you might be very interested in some of the other stuff at http://www.stud.his.no/~onar/ especially the cyberspace and structure of knowledge series. On the other hand. Although this is probably taken out of context I think it applies to email lists. We know that these processes are emergent properties of complex systems, namely neural networks. Therefore, understanding emergent properties should give us insight into the properties of knowledge. A complex system is a system of many independent, interacting entities. The following principles are known about emergent properties in complex systems: 1.The emergent property is independent of the internal structure of the components in the system. 2.The property is well-defined. Number one means that all that matters are the rules of interaction between the entities in the system, not what goes on inside the entities. In this way the same properties can arise in rather different systems. Flocking, for instance occur in insects as well as birds and fish. A traffic system behaves very much like a constrained fluid or an electric circuit. Waves occur in such diverse systems as water, traffic systems (When a red light turns green the cars start moving in a wave pattern), and an ant colony! An ant follows a simple rule. If nothing special happens then walk normal, if a perturbation occurs then walk fast. Try to stuff a stick into an ant nest and see what happens. This perturbation makes the local ants start walking fast. But the fast walk soon perturbs other ants which start walking fast and so on. In this way a "walk fast" information wave is spreading through the colony and soon the whole nest is boiling. Dolores _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:12:36 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Metalife in Psyberspace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, all=20 An url, and some exerpts, on our themes to some extent. Metalife and metaphore? : http://pathfinder.com/@@zPWZdwcASKxf@dSj/fortune/1997/970428/tec.html ~quote~ April 28, 1997 WHEN TECHIES WAX PHILOSOPHICAL, TAKE COVER!=20 At a recent PC industry conference, the talk was of meaning and metaphor. Eryn brown Identity-crafting can be slippery stuff. The first morning of PC =46orum, we sat in the main auditorium and contemplated the notion of metaphor. The goal was to decode exactly what the Web is, or at least what it resembles, in hopes of steering it toward maturity. Scholar George Lakoff, author of Metaphors We Live By, proclaimed that the people in the room were making metaphors come true.=20 Which ones? Lakoff offered a few scary examples: The Web page is its author's external self; the Web makes the core self into an information manager. Online marketer Kyle Shannon complained that the words associated with the Web denote limits. Sites. Pages. People are users, not participants. Shannon argued for new labels that would communicate possibility. Designer Roger Black agreed. "We have to keep an innocent mind about the Web," he said. "We've let it congeal around the edges too much. It needs to be fluid. The Web is about sex, about people getting to know each other." ~~~ On the last day of PC Forum, organizer Esther Dyson told us "in summary" that the industry needs to mix metaphors. "We say that the Web is evolving, like a life form. But the difference between this world and the natural world is our self-awareness. The natural metaphors can only go so far. We need to decide where we're going, to be gardeners and not just people lost in the jungle." Lakoff piped in that this was indeed a situation that called for "metaphor blends." ~endquote~ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:29:01 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Adventures in reality In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970420230930.21f7ada4@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores > My lifes been tainted by too many Humphry Bogart, Bette Davis films. In the workshop we ran recently, Kathryn who i run the gp with was leading for a while and we did clowns, red noses. I was Sherlock Plod, I wont ask myself why, he was prompted by a hat. I liked the mood i found . . . then in the Hat shop a few days ago . . . there it was: The Bogart. Apart from being a high price to suit its quality, I forwent the purchase because i found the identity shift too much. =20 I am toying with it still . . . an adventure in fantasy . . . I'm not British, but could do with a bit of madness . . . ~~~ > Don't forget to check your > shoes for scorpions in the morning.=20 That made me laugh!=20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:14:09 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: The Mad hatters psyber party Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Walter, I suggest you go buy the Bogart hat, despite the price tag and see what it does to/for you. There was an actress who would buy shoes from thrift shops appropriate to the character she was to play and wear them all day. She did this because she thought she took on the personality of the shoes/wearer and that helped her immerse herself in her role. I am not sure what a Bogie hat will do for you, but it might be interesting to find out. When I wear a summer hat, a straw one, its a cloche style hat, I suddenly am filled with a desperate desire to trail my hand in rivers, in a snowy white dress, somewhat reminissant of a picture I once saw of the lady of Shallot. (Not really reccomended in British Rivers as theres no telling what I'll trawl up) It has a very calming effect on me, and I tend to act far more in a ladylike manner. If I stick on a baseball cap, then I want to climb trees and skid stones on water. Very strange. I think they make children wear school caps because it somehow inhibits their naturally juvenile tendancies to general mayhem. My great grandfather in spain, was never seen without a beret. According to my mother it was because he had ringworm, but I liked the story where he would come home with fresh eels curled under it, for her and her sisters. He became famous for his beret, and according to my mother wore the same one for 40 odd years, whatever the weather and he could tell his life history from the various stains and patches. He was known throughout the region she came from as El Gorro, or the hat, and my mothers favorite treat was being allowed to try it on, so she said, she could be like him. I demand Walter that you go buy it..I implore you in fact. Let us know if you undergo a radical personality change when you wear it. Try wearing it during an email session, the results could be interesting. >I am toying with it still . . . an adventure in fantasy . . . >I'm not British, but could do with a bit of madness . . . > >You don't have to be British to be mad, most of the world does if fairly well. However we outstanding at eccentric. > >> Don't forget to check your >> shoes for scorpions in the morning. I suppose in your case it might be a funnel web spider instead? I had an Aunt in Aus who told me they had to check the "Dungy" (sp) for them every morning. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:09:01 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Handmaidens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Are these excerpts of any interest? *** In a review in the Times Literary Supplement ("Surfing Is for Fun", Giles Foden, Feb.7) picked out a few points of possible interest: (Foden is referring to search tools on the web.) "It is interesting how the names of these guides like many pages on the Net, summon up images of power, secret maps and hierophantic (-master, -insider, etc.). As well as political radicalism, the Net has long been associated with hermeticism, the coarser end of which is a co-eval fascination with dungeons-and-dragons, Tolkien, Terry Pratchett and the like. All of these fictions provide escapist sensations of possessing a landscape, while the interactivity of the Net provokes a feeling of a landscape come alive: and it is in finding what you want that this liveliness consists." [] "Its natural mode is epiphanic rather than taxonomic. As such it is a handmaiden to the creative imagination, bringing strangeness and beauty to birth; not the key to mythology then, but mythogenesis itself." *** (It could also just as well be the provocation of a *fantasy* of a landscape come alive...) But it does feel that way sometimes to me. *** HooN ps - I'm also sending this to netdynam. \\\|/// \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) -------oo00-(_)-00oo--------- | | | Stephen Calhoun | | hoon@apk.net | | http://junior.apk.net/~hoon | | | ----------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:23:59 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Personifying Psybernet In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan=20 Dan: > Maybe it would be interesting to > think of Psybernet as a person for a while. I know it/she/he's not but > it/she/he's also definitely not a lifeless "list". Maybe we can pull > the pendulum a little the other way. Walter: As in "Reverse roles with Psybernet". Dan: > Psybernet is always articulating what she/he thinks but her/his > actions seem to imply something more than that. Simon: > >I think of Walter's list description as a 'strange > >attractor' for the list, not a set of commandments that must be > followed. Psybernet: Almost, almost, attracting some that give me voice but never quite . . . perhaps throw out personification of cyberspace for a few search engines to pick up. I am invisible! I crave to be responded to. =20 Dan: > She/he seems to have this passionate impluse... Psybernet:=20 Constant yearning. Love it when I can burst forth through the creative tensions here. Simon: > >Seems to me it is all working out okay here, and so much the better > > for people following their own inner processes, which are, I believe,= =20 > > all parts of a universal process that is beginning to make itself = felt. Dan: > .. to live in fullness and awareness ~ to be open to the universe an > alive to her/his own responses. Psybernet:=20 Ah, good to be seen to be noticed, to be heard. I love it when the words here go beyond the words, and I spring forth with life. Simon: > >emergent self-organising intelligence Dan: > Psybernet . . . Psybernet:=20 Yes, I have a name, more than a list; more than Psyber-L more than the (ageing) web pages : More than the links to the workd through all the URLs . . . sometimes I miss the BBS, I felt more solid, the net is so big, yet I am here, must be here . . . Dan: > is given birth to by the ongoing existence of a group Simon: > > Emergent in the sense of growing human awareness of it Dan: > that is just meeting her/him now Psybernet: And relief it is to be seen, yes the group is wonderful, all of you give me life . . . yet I have an empathy with those in the list who feel invisible. Dan, pleased you tuned in here, and with Simon . . . Simon: > >- in fact this 'intelligence' has always already been everywhere Psybernet:=20 But how do I know I am here? Dan: > As we get to know Psybernet better, we hunger to meet her/him > physically ~ we hunger to hang on to our corporeal appreciation of the > world ~ we tinker with all our bodies' buttons and dials to try to get > it to transport us into the out-of-body world ~ but we know we must > let go ~ we massage and love Psybernet's body (the words and processes > in the list) and we marvel at the magic and life we feel under our > fingers Psybernet: More! I am hungry for this love. I am tense, I want those fingers on the keyboards, vibes in the wires. =20 Dance. There is so much to come on through. =20 Anima/animus and men & women: | Shannon argued for new labels | that would communicate possibility. Designer Roger Black agreed. | "We have to keep an innocent mind about the Web," he said. "We've | let it congeal around the edges too much. It needs to be fluid. | The Web is about sex, about people getting to know each other." Can we live and love and dance and keep the stable clean? Identity: =46RITZ saw email addresses, a theme I pushed to see come alive, perhaps now? with Holly back to HBG again and Sieur de Cyberie here as well Grandpa Bob . . . who *is* here?=20 And my body the bruised and battered structure: How will my web pages ever look fresh? How will the groups and sub groups that are waiting to be born find nourishment? I need the bones for my metalife. ~~~ Walter: Thank you Dan, Simon, all who are tuning in. May we hear more from Psybernet. Invitation, Reverse Roles with Psybernet. ~~~ Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:25:51 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? In-Reply-To: <199704191820.OAA01645@zork.tiac.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hollyg=20 > You capture my feelings exactly! I remember a time on this list when = this > was discussed as a "gender issue". I came to the conclusion, = privately, > that "gender" was only a part ... there was a much larger bugbear in = the > system. Was that the generational "cusp baby" idea? =20 What you and Sheryl say makes me reflect . . . I know the list is dominated by men, if i look at the number of posts by men & women etc. It does not feel like that to me, as I feel the impact of the posts by women . . . and also by the silence, which i interpret as authentic. One of the phenomena. Good that we notice it.=20 ~~~ The title of this post is a question that bears looking at. How is the mirroring here related to generation, gender? Who is visible, who feels invisible? I know that cyberspace is different from rl, and anyone can speak, there is no "interruption" there is infinite space . . . there is also the delete button as Dolores points out . . . However . . . i don't believe that anymore. Psybernet has a life. The life here determines us as much as we determine it, and we are not conscious of that life -- always.=20 =20 > and to Walter, even, who seems to > tolerate gender discussion as, maybe, girl venting ...feeling > (rather than objective observation drawn from experience ) I = say > that the circle is drawn and I am obviously on the outside. There is = no > space to play, no place to say ..." How does that happen? I had assumed that attention to the "temenos" was creating a more saying playing place . . . yet for you that is only seen as: > that the list has evolved > into the discovery of a few characters' interior lives and interests. > Interesting, of course, at least interesting enough to keep my ear to = the > ground, but not exactly the growing space for the discussion I thought = I had > come here to join. > So it goes. I have no idea if that I am here or not. >=20 > Wait a second. Is this going to touch off another "Sounds of silence" > thread? Argh! :) Or the darkness of invisibility . . . Walter=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:26:00 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Room at the in ? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970419034925.4a2f27d8@pop3.concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Knowledge of Bion,,, and AION. I love to learn:-) >=20 > arlene. Bion and Aion, what a hoot! arline, are you saying you'd really like to know more about these two diverse phenomena? =20 Doug could help with Aion, Eva with Bion . . . perhaps. w _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:46:52 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: the mad hatter's adventures in emergent unreality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, Cooool summer vibes in London town today :) Walter, earlier on I saw a couple sunbathing on a pink leather sofa in the park, is that eccentric enough for you?? Wonderful image I have of you in red nose, clown's outfit and Bogie hat! Do you do children's parties?! Dolores, loved the mad hatter's psyber party, how perfectly playful! And now I'm sure Walter will buy his Bogie hat and wear it whenever he writes to you! Dan, thanks for your replies, I've read your web page too, will try to write something more when I can think straight! Sheesh, this is neither considered nor important, I guess. Oh well... If I wasn't in such a silly mood I probably wouldn't send it. white rabbits to you all, Simon _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:28:17 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: The Mad hatters psyber party In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970421130926.279fd184@easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores=20 > I demand Walter that you go buy it..I implore you in fact. Let us know = if > you undergo a radical personality change when you wear it. Try wearing= it > during an email session, the results could be interesting. Oh my god! You are not the only one doing this to me at the moment . . . this hat seems to attract more animus projections than . . . what can i say! =20 =20 ~~~ > >> Don't forget to check your > >> shoes for scorpions in the morning. =20 > I suppose in your case it might be a funnel web spider instead? > I had an Aunt in Aus who told me they had to check the "Dungy" (sp) for= them > every morning. Of course i am in New Zealand at the moment, here we pride ourselves on having no snakes or poisonous spiders. =20 I think the word is dunny ie where you do it? I grew up in Australia and we had a dunny, outside, and the dunny man used to come at 4 in the morning with the dunny cart to empty the can every wednesday. The spider we had to look out for was the red-back, more common, and also dangerous. Flies were the worst though. walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:33:08 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: If you want to get ahead, get ahat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Simon, earlier on I saw a couple sunbathing on a pink leather sofa in the park, is that eccentric enough for you?? Pink sofas in the park??? I suggest that the warmer weather has probably effected you, and your obviously suffering from a mild case of sunstroke. SOLOUTION: Wear a hat. How would you feel about a Stetson? Wonderful image I have of you in red nose, clown's outfit and Bogie hat! Do you do children's parties?! I myself had the same image, was tempted to ask Walter to send a Jpg, and Price list. >Oh my god! You are not the only one doing this to me at the >moment . . . this hat seems to attract more animus projections >than . . . what can i say! > That hat has your name on it and its calling you. Listen to it, its obviously trying to reach out to you and some hithertoo undiscovered inner persona, desperate to see the light of day, of which your in complete denial about and rather meanly depriving of a means of expression by not purchasing said hat. >I think the word is dunny ie where you do it? I grew up in >Australia and we had a dunny, outside, and the dunny man used to >come at 4 in the morning with the dunny cart to empty the can >every wednesday. The spider we had to look out for was the >red-back, more common, and also dangerous. Flies were the worst >though. > Sounds like theres a caste system in Australia too? Saw a programme on the Dung men of Deli once, they took great pride in their work, because they thought it would buy them a better life next time round or something like that. I was tempted to ask how you empty a dunny, (I worked out why you'd do it at 4am quite rapidly) but images of ladles came to mind, and mixed with Dans protozoa cyber soup and I havent eaten yet so I think on that note, I'll drop it. Love Dolores. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:20:35 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "arlene fay s." Subject: A ION AND B ION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:26 PM 4/22/97 GMT, Walter Logeman wrote: >> Knowledge of Bion,,, and AION. I love to learn:-) >> >> arlene. > > >Bion and Aion, what a hoot! > >arline, are you saying you'd really like to know more about these >two diverse phenomena? > >Doug could help with Aion, Eva with Bion . . . perhaps. > > >w Yup. I'll lurk and seek out. Or read the back mail. (thanks) arlene. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:42:58 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Fwd: NEW: Spirit-Mind-Body - Discussion of self-discovery, alternatives, spirituality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thought I'd forward this as it might be of interest to some people here... Simon ------------Forwarded message begins------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:17:28 -0500 Reply-To: Bruce Rhodewalt Sender: NEW-LIST - New List Announcements From: Bruce Rhodewalt Subject: NEW: Spirit-Mind-Body - Discussion of self-discovery, alternatives, spirituality To: NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU Spirit-Mind-Body on majordomo@tikipub.com Self-discovery, Alternatives, Spirituality Discussion Spirit-Mind-Body is more than a mailing list. It is a search, a journey, a wealth of resources to inform, inspire and guide. It is a channel for the discussion of the deeply personal issues that bind us all: Wisdom. Health. Meaning. Spirit. Mind. Body. The founding members of this list have brought to it a diverse range of interests, including homeopathy, iridology, aromatherapy, reflexology and other forms of alternative medicine; the embroadening spiritual ideas of Deepak Chopra, Mother Teresa, and Fritjof Capra; holistic sexuality, Kama Sutra, massage, erotic astrology and other methods of enhanced sexuality; historic truths as understood by the Druids, our Cherokee ancestors, Nostradamus, the ancient Chinese, and the birdmen of Easter Island; vegetarianism; shiatzu; Qigong; chi; and angels. The list is unmoderated and open. All are welcome. To subscribe send message SUBSCRIBE SPIRIT-MIND-BODY to majordomo@tikipub.com (any subject) in the body of the mail. Owner: spirit-mind-body-owner@tikipub.com ------- Use this information at your own risk. For more information and disclaimer send E-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command INFO NEW-LIST in the body. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 03:19:30 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: A ION AND B ION In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970421011909.1887b154@pop3.concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable arlene, all,=20 > > Bion and Aion, what a hoot! > >arline, are you saying you'd really like to know more about these > >two diverse phenomena? > >Doug could help with Aion, Eva with Bion . . . perhaps. > Yup. I'll lurk and seek out. Or read the back mail. A and B ion have been on my mind and I hope this post does not=20 pre-empt what others might be warming up to on this theme -- please don't let it do that. =20 ~~~ Aion and Bion make a beautiful link in a glass bead game move, where we look for the "virtual music of ideas". =20 The symmetry of the words is matched by both symmetry and complementarity of the notions. =20 Aion is a god. Aion is a book by Jung. Bion is an analyst therapist, who also wrote books. Some resonation there, but the gongs ring as we think of how they both link to the notion of metalife that Dan has brought in. Edinger, a commentator on Jung, said that with Aion, Jung put the last two thousand years on the couch and treated them as if they were an analysand. Bion, is a founder of group psychotherapy, who placed particular emphasis on working with the "group-as-a-whole". Walter =20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 03:23:59 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: The Mad hatters psyber party In-Reply-To: <3363bd40.14308577@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AION, BION, HAT ON, Sorry, Don't leave Simon. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:03:58 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "arlene fay s." Subject: Re: A ION AND B ION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:19 AM 4/22/97 GMT, Walter Logeman wrote: >A and B ion have been on my mind and I hope this post does not >pre-empt what others might be warming up to on this theme -- >please don't let it do that. Walter, My first reaction is 'this is very sweet of you to post this info. I hope it does not pre-empt what you are worried about. you also said: >Aion and Bion make a beautiful link in a glass bead game move, >where we look for the "virtual music of ideas". > >The symmetry of the words is matched by both symmetry and >complementarity of the notions. > >Aion is a god. Aion is a book by Jung. Bion is an analyst >therapist, who also wrote books. Some resonation there, but the >gongs ring as we think of how they both link to the notion of >metalife that Dan has brought in. Edinger, a commentator on >Jung, said that with Aion, Jung put the last two thousand years >on the couch and treated them as if they were an analysand. >Bion, is a founder of group psychotherapy, who placed particular >emphasis on working with the "group-as-a-whole". > > >Walter > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 01:15:42 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Re: The Mad hatters psyber party In-Reply-To: <335d2eca.252060400@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter wrote: >AION, BION, HAT ON, > >Sorry, > >Don't leave Simon. You floored me with this one, Walter. What did I say (or not say)?? Forgive the brevity. It's late, I'm tired, and words leave me... but I'm here, not gone or going... Ooh, that silence, eh... Deadlines rule for me at the moment, my own reason for silence... Walter, thank you for wearing your kind hat SION ;) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:53:36 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: The Mad hatters psyber party In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Simon=20 > >Don't leave Simon. > You floored me with this one, Walter. What did I say (or not say)?? I recall you saying you were thinking of leaving another forum because of all the trivial stuff. my post was of that ilk. I was kidding. ~~~ > Ooh, that silence, eh... What do you see through & in that silence? =20 > Deadlines rule for me at the moment, my own reason for silence... There is always rl. I know. Its real. I think there is far more in it than that though . . . the ebbs and flows here, the psyber-tides . . . is it the full moon? I think it is difficult work here & I wonder if I say too much . . . that this is *possible* here? I used to think it wasn't like that, that there was always room for more. =20 Even so, to evaluate our process and dynamics & the part in the facilitation, that is difficult work too. =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 03:55:41 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kataryn Subject: Simile ~~~~ > >Q: How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take > to change a light bulb? > >A: 1,331: > 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail > list that the light bulb has been changed > 14 to share similar experiences of changing light > bulbs and how the light bulb could have been > changed differently. > 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. > 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about > changing light bulbs. > 53 to flame the spell checkers > 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about > the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness > to this mail list. > 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. > 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and > to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb > 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, > alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing > light bulbs be stopped. > 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we > are all use light bulbs and therefore the posts > **are** relevant to this mail list. > 306 to debate which method of changing light > bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, > what brand of light bulbs work best for this > technique, and what brands are faulty. > 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of > different light bulbs > 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and > to post corrected URLs. > 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that > are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs > relevant to this list. > 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote > them including all headers and footers, and then > add "Me Too." > 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing > because they cannot handle the light bulb > controversey. > 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." > 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. > 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. > 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion > was meant for, leave it here. > 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:46:44 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Re: The Mad hatters psyber party In-Reply-To: <3363958b.15685846@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter wrote: >I recall you saying you were thinking of leaving another forum >because of all the trivial stuff. my post was of that ilk. I >was kidding. > >~~~ There's trivial and there's playful. The court jester says things no-one else can, we in jesting mood may say things we wouldn't otherwise say, the punchline punches through the veneer of straight-faced normality... Hmmm, is there an archetype in there somewhere? I'm not too up on that stuff. >I think it is difficult work here & I wonder if I say too much . >. . that this is *possible* here? I used to think it wasn't like >that, that there was always room for more. too much? you are talking depth? a few words can say an ocean does the ocean move through you or do you move through the ocean? if you say too much, do you drown (out) people? is silence like being underwater, an act of submergence? are we all swimming with the tide? just some random tiredness thoughts sent out into the limitless expanse of psyberspace... making a shallow puddle maybe ;) Simon _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:16:56 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>I came to the conclusion, privately, >> that "gender" was only a part ... there was a much larger bugbear in the >> system. > >Was that the generational "cusp baby" idea? > Walter, I realize, now, I wasn't very clear. No ... the "cusp baby" grew more out of my growing distaste for the the media hype around sex on the net. It seems as if the media and politicians in the States get public interest and "moral mileage" from focusing on sex, rather than interpreting human behavior on screen as ....just human behavior in a new medium. Given I am a product of TV culture, late-60's 70's TV culture nonetheless, I am suspicious of the rhetoric on both sides --- the horror of the medium vs. the superiority of the medium. But more later on that if anyone is interested. No, at the time of my comments (mid-February) the explanation of the Robert-Marie-Dream Event had not emerged. I had come on to the list just as PWP began (August?). I jumped into PWP without considering the emotional history of the list. So much of the interaction those first months was very confusing, considering I had joined PWP open-minded, and rather naive. I took the description of the project literally --- never anticipating the "interior life" of the list. Thus, for example, the first time I read a Delores posting, I simply didn't know what to do with it. I think one of my remarks was something like "Where in the geography of the list is the dog bowl...." or something like that. Of course, now Delores' voice seems ... well ... a bit clearer, less threatening and/or dismissive. And as for the comments about gender and silence and love ... well, my guess is that many issues remaining from past lists(cyber love/relationships) are still floating around. No one is about to post a Subject Heading "What we really want to talk about" (is this a list, as I once observed, of passive aggressives? :) ) So, to me, the failure of PWP (yes, I felt it as failure) seemed less daunting when I considered how the list may not have been capable of letting a project like PWP grow. There was (is) still work remaining from the past the list needs to get through before new growth can begin and new voices heard. (Pretty soon there will be the new discipline --- listserve therapists! >However . . . i don't believe that anymore. Psybernet has a >life. The life here determines us as much as we determine it, >and we are not conscious of that life -- always. > >How does that happen? I had assumed that attention to the >"temenos" was creating a more saying playing place . . . I like that phrase "A more saying place ...." Better yet, "A contemplation of how life determines us as much as we determine it." Will think more on how I sense this happens ... for isn't this really the crux of the list? HBG _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:32:20 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? In-Reply-To: <199704240116.VAA29291@zork.tiac.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hollyg=20 > (is this a > list, as I once observed, of passive aggressives? :) ) I dont really think so, but i had *exactly* the same thought as I await responses to many things i have said, asked recently. Consciously I do not expect or await anything! Not so in the unc. Anyway, i write this not as a response to your whole post, which is full of food for thought, but as the psyber equivalent of a "minimal encourager". For those not in the psy trade, a nod, "Hmmm", or Ahah, are known by that name, wonderful name . . . so dry! =20 I was thinking that we need to work on the psyber eqivalents, which may not be just short posts, but fuller sharing of our psybernet reading habits . . . so we *know* more of who is here, and what they are up to even if they don't respond.=20 I know that Charles is *busy plus*, Dolores about to go overseas, Josh, busy plus, Dan likewise, but that their heart is here . . . from time to time, there is nothing agressive in their psybernet passivity. I know some personally from face to face, perhaps that helps, not Charles though, or Dolores. rl calls,=20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:22:41 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:32 AM 4/24/97 GMT, you wrote: >hollyg > >> (is this a >> list, as I once observed, of passive aggressives? :) ) I don't think that I've been anything other than directly agressive. As a matter of fact, about a year ago, I brought about a tirade about rage and it's viability which still leaves me in awe. I've been watching the list for the past week or so, and I've been wondering where things have been going. It seems that things are settling back into some sort of flow, but I really must say that the flights of fancy have left me a bet mystified.. But then I just a guy that is actually creating the technology that the others here are gushing about.. I beleive it was Holly, (but it may have been someone else), that said that Robert, myself and a couple of others, (Walter?), were limiting the discussion of gender online. In an effort to see why and how that statement came about, and getting the general impression that the author of the comment had a problem with the forcefulness of my opinions, I decided to remain quiet for a while to see if the topic would blossum on it's own. (sp?) It didn't. I really have to say that if any woman wants to discuss gender and it's role in this discussion, I have done NOTHING to prevent that discussion in any way. The most that I would admit in any analysis of the discussion was calling Robert out on the subtle innuendo that I saw woven into his posts about how women were exactly the same as men online, when he had been probably the person most paying attention to the differences.. (In my opinion). While I can understand how that might bring a pall onto an intellectual discussion, every woman on this list has just as much authority and power as I do, the POST button works just as well for a female hand as it does for mine. I have done some thinking about the topic, and I think that I have sorted out most of the basic issues involved that create any real or percieved differences between men and woman, but I'm not a activist in the field, and given the nature of the feminist beast on the Internet, and the really obvious nature of all of the things that I realized, (and after a lot of effort, why I wasted so much time on it is a mystery), and the previous comment about how I somehow prevented the discussion of gender's differentiation.., I figure, why bother? The thinking that I've done isn't going to be well recieved, too many ego and other issues in the mix.. and it's going to take a lot of effort to write it out anyway. As to the comment about sex that Holly made, ie, that the media and politicians break everything down to sex as the issue.. I agree. I'm tired of that BS. It's a damn waste of humanity and real life to put everything in life in the basis of sexual frameworks. I don't watch TV because it's too trite and full of those archetypes.. and certainly a great deal of what I've avoided on this list has to do with much the same thing. (Check the archives from about a year ago..) I was watching a discussion about "life online" and the lead evangelist from Microsoft kept pointing out how all of us were just interested in sexual encounters online, and she kept bringing them up. I noticed that she didn't really have anything to say, other than how all of the people just wanted to have sexual encounters in VChat. So much for any value that she might have had to communicate.. I'm still here, I've very busy, and I'm about to put out the virtual community that I've been busy building for the past year. I'm not responsible for the entire design, and the corporate egos that are involved have almost driven me from the project a couple of times. I've watched 4 different design teams come and go, each claiming that they knew just what was needed, and in the end, I'm the person that is making the design decisions, and I'm the one that is making the value based decisions as to what will and will not be included in the project. The reason is quite simple. I understand the media. The other design teams don't write software, and had never designed software. They were graphics artists, book editors, and any number of other things. The closest that came along was a Game Producer from Viacom, but for some reason he and his wife thought that they could design for the web without even knowing HTML or coming to understand the basics of the software that is actually in use. If anyone is interested in seeing what I've been spending my time on, making money to be able to lauch my "Face Information Technology", send me a private email and I'll send you the contact information and the passwords necessary. I'm really looking for a substantial discussion with people that really are interested in create a value based community on the Internet. (hint, hint, Walter?) The topic that is being pursued for my client is a child development site, but I have the rights to all of the software (as long as it's not child development) and I'm interested in finding other Virtual Communities to build with the software. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:24:30 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dan Randow Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >"minimal encourager" yes _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 12:58:03 -0700 Reply-To: oma1@ptd.net Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: susanne beier Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- From: Walter Logeman To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? Date: Wednesday, April 23, 1997 8:32 PM hollyg > (is this a > list, as I once observed, of passive aggressives? :) ) I dont really think so, but i had *exactly* the same thought as I await responses to many things i have said, asked recently. Consciously I do not expect or await anything! Not so in the unc. Anyway, i write this not as a response to your whole post, which is full of food for thought, but as the psyber equivalent of a "minimal encourager". For those not in the psy trade, a nod, "Hmmm", or Ahah, are known by that name, wonderful name . . . so dry! I was thinking that we need to work on the psyber eqivalents, which may not be just short posts, but fuller sharing of our psybernet reading habits . . . so we *know* more of who is here, and what they are up to even if they don't respond. I know that Charles is *busy plus*, Dolores about to go overseas, Josh, busy plus, Dan likewise, but that their heart is here . . . from time to time, there is nothing agressive in their psybernet passivity. I know some personally from face to face, perhaps that helps, not Charles though, or Dolores. rl calls, Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ---------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:00:12 -0700 Reply-To: oma1@ptd.net Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: susanne beier Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How do I get out of this list? I've tried sending e-mail with the "unsubscribe" message. Can you perhaps help me? I've observed this list for a while now and see no relevance to the type of discussion that I'm looking for. Thanks in advance for the assist. ---------- > From: Wilbur Streett > To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM > Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? > Date: Wednesday, April 23, 1997 9:22 PM > > At 03:32 AM 4/24/97 GMT, you wrote: > >hollyg > > > >> (is this a > >> list, as I once observed, of passive aggressives? :) ) > > I don't think that I've been anything other than directly agressive. As a > matter of fact, about a year ago, I brought about a tirade about rage and > it's viability which still leaves me in awe. > > I've been watching the list for the past week or so, and I've been wondering > where things have been going. It seems that things are settling back into > some sort of flow, but I really must say that the flights of fancy have left > me a bet mystified.. But then I just a guy that is actually creating the > technology that the others here are gushing about.. > > I beleive it was Holly, (but it may have been someone else), that said that > Robert, myself and a couple of others, (Walter?), were limiting the > discussion of gender online. In an effort to see why and how that statement > came about, and getting the general impression that the author of the > comment had a problem with the forcefulness of my opinions, I decided to > remain quiet for a while to see if the topic would blossum on it's own. > (sp?) It didn't. I really have to say that if any woman wants to discuss > gender and it's role in this discussion, I have done NOTHING to prevent that > discussion in any way. The most that I would admit in any analysis of the > discussion was calling Robert out on the subtle innuendo that I saw woven > into his posts about how women were exactly the same as men online, when he > had been probably the person most paying attention to the differences.. (In > my opinion). While I can understand how that might bring a pall onto an > intellectual discussion, every woman on this list has just as much authority > and power as I do, the POST button works just as well for a female hand as > it does for mine. > > I have done some thinking about the topic, and I think that I have sorted > out most of the basic issues involved that create any real or percieved > differences between men and woman, but I'm not a activist in the field, and > given the nature of the feminist beast on the Internet, and the really > obvious nature of all of the things that I realized, (and after a lot of > effort, why I wasted so much time on it is a mystery), and the previous > comment about how I somehow prevented the discussion of gender's > differentiation.., I figure, why bother? The thinking that I've done isn't > going to be well recieved, too many ego and other issues in the mix.. and > it's going to take a lot of effort to write it out anyway. > > As to the comment about sex that Holly made, ie, that the media and > politicians break everything down to sex as the issue.. I agree. I'm tired > of that BS. It's a damn waste of humanity and real life to put everything > in life in the basis of sexual frameworks. I don't watch TV because it's > too trite and full of those archetypes.. and certainly a great deal of what > I've avoided on this list has to do with much the same thing. (Check the > archives from about a year ago..) I was watching a discussion about "life > online" and the lead evangelist from Microsoft kept pointing out how all of > us were just interested in sexual encounters online, and she kept bringing > them up. I noticed that she didn't really have anything to say, other than > how all of the people just wanted to have sexual encounters in VChat. So > much for any value that she might have had to communicate.. > > I'm still here, I've very busy, and I'm about to put out the virtual > community that I've been busy building for the past year. I'm not > responsible for the entire design, and the corporate egos that are involved > have almost driven me from the project a couple of times. I've watched 4 > different design teams come and go, each claiming that they knew just what > was needed, and in the end, I'm the person that is making the design > decisions, and I'm the one that is making the value based decisions as to > what will and will not be included in the project. The reason is quite > simple. I understand the media. The other design teams don't write > software, and had never designed software. They were graphics artists, book > editors, and any number of other things. The closest that came along was a > Game Producer from Viacom, but for some reason he and his wife thought that > they could design for the web without even knowing HTML or coming to > understand the basics of the software that is actually in use. > > If anyone is interested in seeing what I've been spending my time on, making > money to be able to lauch my "Face Information Technology", send me a > private email and I'll send you the contact information and the passwords > necessary. I'm really looking for a substantial discussion with people that > really are interested in create a value based community on the Internet. > (hint, hint, Walter?) > > The topic that is being pursued for my client is a child development site, > but I have the rights to all of the software (as long as it's not child > development) and I'm interested in finding other Virtual Communities to > build with the software. > > Wilbur > ----------------------------------------- > Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) > ----------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 03:24:41 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? In-Reply-To: <199704240116.VAA29291@zork.tiac.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable holly, all, > It seems as if > the media and politicians in the States get public interest and "moral > mileage" from focusing on sex, rather than interpreting human behavior = on screen as ....just > human behavior in a new medium. =20 Yes. Also the "drug" aspect, internet as addiction is one of their favourites, the sexual stuff dominates to be sure, here in New Zealand as well as in the states. Perhaps we are a state? > Given I am a product of TV culture, > late-60's 70's TV culture nonetheless, I am suspicious of the rhetoric = on > both sides --- the horror of the medium vs. the superiority of the = medium. > But more later on that if anyone is interested. I'd welcome your analysis on that. > I > took the description of the project literally --- never anticipating = the > "interior life" of the list. Thus, for example, the first time I read = a > Delores posting, I simply didn't know what to do with it. I think one = of my > remarks was something like "Where in the geography of the list is the = dog > bowl...." or something like that. I know the feeling, but i loved that moment, just as we were talking about "anarchy", we have it! I think there was good learning in that, and it validated in my opinion, the style of learning we were both talking about and doing. > And as for the comments about gender and > silence and love ... well, my guess is that many issues remaining from = past > lists(cyber love/relationships) are still floating around. =20 I think so, always perhaps, however *I* have a sense that we have a better climate here than before, we have some alertness, consciousness of them. I think it is good enough. More can be done here with good outcomes I think. What won't or can't be said here might be to do with this being a "train" rather than a "destination". I am thinking a lot about where to go with psyber groups . . . discussion on that is "What I'd like to see discussed on the list". =20 And that is what you are doing here . . . "processing" ie reviewing and evaluating the PWP is important . . . > So, to me, the failure of PWP (yes, I felt it as failure) seemed less > daunting when I considered how the list may not have been capable of > letting a project like PWP grow. There was (is) still work remaining = from the past > the list needs to get through before new growth can begin and new = voices > heard. (Pretty soon there will be the new discipline --- listserve = therapists! So if there is more how is that best "facilitated". Learning to be such a "list therapist" is *exactly* on topic for the list. I do my utmost to facilitate that, I'll even wear my new hat (still to be purchased) while I'm typing, if I thought it would help. I think that has been the general attitude here, all of us doing the best we can, in our own way. So what do you, Holly, and others think will help? What would a list therapist do? =20 Would you (addressed to All) do anything different if you were the list owner / facilitator? Would you ever want that job? Is this the most we can hope for in a public, open list? Or is there more we can work through and thus enter into a mew phase? ~~~ With the PWP there were *many* problems. One problem it did avoid however was a bunch heading off to a closed list. All of the PWP posts are in the archives, if not on the web! However I would never do that fishbowl thing again -- you know it just leads to that messy dogbowl! =20 ~~~ > I like that phrase "A more saying place ...." =20 Do you think it is? Are we moving in that direction? > Better yet, "A contemplation > of how life determines us as much as we determine it." Will think more= on > how I sense this happens ... for isn't this really the crux of the = list? How much can we "make" happen here? =20 > HBG This is your contribution is it not, to the discussion about hats? HGB Holly, two aspects, both real? Dare I say it, there is some "indirect anger" in going back to HBG, it is not safe for Holly? I have been talking with Kate (my partner) this morning. We are on a three day weekend at out holiday house, ANZAC day today. =20 I agree with Wilbur that pushing the POST button is the same for us all in a physical sense. Cyberspace does not protect our soul, rather it exposes it. Where Kate & I got to was thinking that we live in a country that has been colonised as it were, occupied, by men -- patriarchy. That means a) that there are old scars . . . and b) you can actually be Got by one of them . . . here in Psybernet as much as anywhere, perhaps more so as it gets "safer" as the vulnerability is greater, closed groups or private email are no protection. I don't think this is something easily mended, again as Wilbur says. Probably beyond the pail for even the best "list therapist" . . .=20 I feel vulnerable writing this . . . it leaves me open to the anger and aggression, direct and indirect from both men and women, yet as a man I think I am not as vulnerable as women. All my life I have had the uniform of the occupying forces, even though that has been very uncomfortable, as inside I do not experience myself as such, it has offered protection, and also opened doors. I have managed to do some good from within the enemy camp I hope. =20 Coming to think of it though, I was born into an occupied country, one year before the end of the war, I did not have the uniform of the enemy then. It had its impact. Walter =20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 03:24:50 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == Leaving the list == In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable susanne wrote, > How do I get out of this list? I've tried sending e-mail with the > "unsubscribe" message. Can you perhaps help me? I've observed this list= for > a while now and see no relevance to the type of discussion that I'm = looking > for. Thanks in advance for the assist. To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to:=20 LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM =20 In the body of the email write: =20 SIGNOFF PSYBER-L Hope that helps, susan, and others . . . Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:41:14 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:24 AM 4/25/97 GMT, you wrote: >Yes. Also the "drug" aspect, internet as addiction is one of >their favourites, the sexual stuff dominates to be sure, here in >New Zealand as well as in the states. Perhaps we are a state? Just as a point of reference, the guy that came up with the term Internet Addiction did so because he wanted to head off the society's abuse of addition as a way to brand this medium. Despite his efforts, he's quoted as the leader in the field in some articles.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 06:10:33 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: RE.How do I know if I am here or not??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, Simon and Dan wrote: > > Dan: Maybe it would be interesting to > > think of Psybernet as a person for a while. I know it/she/he's not but > > it/she/he's also definitely not a lifeless "list". Maybe we can pull > > the pendulum a little the other way. JimC: Pendulums are supposed to swing, when you pull them they other way they stop. > Walter: As in "Reverse roles with Psybernet". > > Dan: > > Psybernet is always articulating what she/he thinks but her/his > > actions seem to imply something more than that. JimC:At this point (in my opinion and speaking as a new observer), the action seems to imply that psybernet is confused - posts meander down tributaries with the poster gaily calling "follow me". Walter dutifully goes down the tributary but most others seem to say "not now, come see MY creek instead". > > Simon: > > >I think of Walter's list description as a 'strange > > >attractor' for the list, not a set of commandments that must be > > followed. JimC: In an earlier post I had inserted the list description. I did this to illustrate the 'door' I had walked through to get here. The intent was not to deliver "commandments" but rather to try and explain why, since the list's content is somewhat divergent from the description, it is difficult for new members to find the space to speak in. > Psybernet: > Almost, almost, attracting some that give me voice but never > quite . . . perhaps throw out personification of cyberspace for a > few search engines to pick up. I am invisible! I crave to be > responded to. JimC: The list description is also the door that most of us walk trough to get here. Psybernet, you're not who you said you were - did you lie intentionally or were you too busy to be clear. > < snip> > Simon: > > >emergent self-organising intelligence JimC: Anthropomorphism? > Dan: > > Psybernet . . . > > Psybernet: > Yes, I have a name, more than a list; more than Psyber-L more > than the (ageing) web pages : More than the links to the workd > through all the URLs . . . sometimes I miss the BBS, I felt more > solid, the net is so big, yet I am here, must be here . . . > > Dan: > > is given birth to by the ongoing existence of a group > > Simon: > > > Emergent in the sense of growing human awareness of it > > Dan: > > that is just meeting her/him now > > Psybernet: > And relief it is to be seen, yes the group is wonderful, all of > you give me life . . . yet I have an empathy with those in the > list who feel invisible. Dan, pleased you tuned in here, and > with Simon . . . > > Simon: > > >- in fact this 'intelligence' has always already been everywhere > > Psybernet: > But how do I know I am here? > > Dan: > > As we get to know Psybernet better, we hunger to meet her/him > > physically ~ we hunger to hang on to our corporeal appreciation of the > > world ~ we tinker with all our bodies' buttons and dials to try to get > > it to transport us into the out-of-body world ~ but we know we must > > let go ~ we massage and love Psybernet's body (the words and processes > > in the list) and we marvel at the magic and life we feel under our > > fingers > > Psybernet: > More! I am hungry for this love. > > I am tense, I want those fingers on the keyboards, vibes in the > wires. > > Dance. > > There is so much to come on through. > > Anima/animus and men & women: > | Shannon argued for new labels > | that would communicate possibility. Designer Roger Black agreed. > | "We have to keep an innocent mind about the Web," he said. "We've > | let it congeal around the edges too much. It needs to be fluid. > | The Web is about sex, about people getting to know each other." > > Can we live and love and dance and keep the stable clean? > > Identity: > FRITZ saw email addresses, a theme I pushed to see come alive, > perhaps now? with Holly back to HBG again and Sieur de Cyberie > here as well Grandpa Bob . . . who *is* here? JimC: I am I think, therefore I guess I must be. I think. > And my body the bruised and battered structure: > How will my web pages ever look fresh? How will the groups and > sub groups that are waiting to be born find nourishment? I need > the bones for my metalife. > JimC: I don't want to be bones, I want to be autonomous - my bones carry me through rl. Saying this reminds me of a former minister at our church - every Sunday bleating "You are all sheep, come to God's love" while I muttered back from the pew " I am NOT a SHEEP, I am an ENTREPRENEUR!" 'Course now I am a bit ticked to find out the sheep really do have access to eternal life (genetically speaking at least). Cheers all, hope this babble of mine is at least partially intelligible. Talking to psybernet this way makes me feel like a lost pagan in the woods - asking trees for directions. ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:22:42 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: RE.How do I know if I am here or not??? In-Reply-To: <33608319.2598@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JimC: > JimC: The list description is also the door that most of us walk trough > to get here. Psybernet, you're not who you said you were - did you lie > intentionally or were you too busy to be clear. I have not role reversed, and so am speaking purely as me, but it is me that writes the description. I am busy, but it has had a lot of work, and many revisions. I think it is both clear and that we stick to the task, though we could do *more* and i hope we will. =20 I am very curious as to what you find misleading, unclear, and how this list goes off-topic. On the "hub" question, and on the unfinished thread question I think you are on target . . . and i wish i knew what we could do to amend. =20 Im interested to learn more . . . Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:30:56 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Adventures in reality - Dolores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dolores... I hope you are on your trip and having a wonderful time, being an absolutely wild woman and reminding a few others of the life within them along the way. :) I want to hear about it when you return. There were so many things in this email that I could have and could address... mostly I want to say thank you for asking about my dreams. It's a question everyone should be sincerely asked in their lifetime. I'm still thinking about what mine are, and I'm grateful you asked. I think that although I've tried to find some new ones, it's easy to get stuck in the past and forget to move on, so that's what I'm doing :) > And no not mocking you, but understanding completely where you were coming > from. Maybe I even took a little inspiration from your post. In fact I have > been guilty of not responding to posts when I really wanted to, because I > have filed them in the to do, bit and then forgotten to do them. And by the > time I got round to do, it was to late to have done. I wish I could let you know how much saying this meant/means to me, Dolores. It does. I don't feel like such a loon. > >Its going to beat with the ferocity of native drum, resonating so loudly > through the americas, they'll hear it pounding in their ears all the way in > the congo. I'm listening :) Sheryl > From: Dolores > To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM > Subject: Re: Adventures in reality -Sheryl > Date: Sunday, April 20, 1997 4:14 PM > > Dear Sheryl > > Unfortunatly my motivations were slightly less altruistic, I wanted to be > swept off my feet by Clark Gable under a steaming Jungle canopy, right after > he had beaten off a lion with his bare hands, and stopped me from treading > on the lethally venemous mamba half hidden in the undergrowth. As for > doctors, I would have of course wanted to seduce them with my brave and > uncomplaining spirit as I lay prostrate with Malaria, while they they mopped > my fevered brow and were all frightfully in charge and debonair, while the > ship chugged relentlessly towards Marakesh or some other equally exotic port > of call. > Sacrificing myself to a volcano, would have not run high on my list of > priorities, unless of course I did it for love, which would be terribly > melodramatic and tragic, as my lei bubbled on the top of a vat of molten > lava in the final scene, and possibly my arm reached skywards in a forlorn > gesture as I immolated myself gracefully. > > My lifes been tainted by too many Humphry Bogart, Bette Davis films. > > > >Exactly. And Dolores, I *do* think this is cool, because it goes beyond > >the words... not just saying them but doing them. Not just talking the > >talk, but walking the walk too. It's exhilarating, and I've felt it, it > >feels alive. > > Feeling alive, its a wonderfull feeling. Sometimes I get it in the most > curious places, and I just want to go mad like a march hare, and jump around > and just delight in the fact that life is mine. Its what makes the days when > I have just gone through the motions bearable. Its like recharging your > batteries to see you through the next attack of the doldrums. I have a > insane desire at times to go dance in the garden, but as my neighbours are > terribly british and possibly already looking for an excuse to have me > committed, I really don't dare. > > > >This strikes me as extremely positive for both you and your daughter. How > >I wish my mother had followed her own dreams rather than stick them on me! > >How I wish that for her as well as for myself and my sister. But women in > >my mother's generation, depression, war, etc... what a mess that must have > >been for them... going to work during the war, being somebody, then when > >the men came home they were all told to go home, the jobs were for the men. > > Go back home and just be wives and mothers. Talk about denial of reality! > > What were your mothers dreams? Sometimes I wish I was close enough to my > mother to ask her what hers were, or if she still has any. What are your > dreams now? Everybody should have dreams, without the persuit of the > unobtainable or seemingly unreachable, life would have little challenge. > > > >I'm usually up for adventure :) I think the time will come for me to take > >that trip to England, and I want to see Stonehenge and feel the ancient > >places of my ancestors. But right now isn't the time for me unless I win > >lotto Instead, as I said, I'm compromising a little... but it is > >for now. To live in a nicer place. I'm also for now going to make my > >adventures a little cheaper... I've got a great tent, and I'm buying a > >sleeping bag that will go to 0 degrees and doing a little more discovering > >of my home. Maybe I'll need to get a big mean dog too. There are places > >here I'm going, New Mexico, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona and my beloved Nebraska. > > I love the idea of you huddled at 0 degrees in your sleeping bag, trusty dog > by your side, it sounds like true adventure. Don't forget to check your > shoes for scorpions in the morning. (maybe all those steamy adventure films > I loved as a kid werent such a waste of time - Never look a gorrilla in the > eye, and stand your ground when he charges.) > > I won't burst your bubble about stonehenge. Its the least mystical place on > earth and was a great disapointment when I was last there. The smell of the > chip fat from the roadside canteen kind of destroyed the arcane atmosphere, > as did the fact that some bright spark erected the flourescant blue > portaloos within photographing distance of the stones. For real magic go to > Glastonbury Tor, which is not that far away and where King Arthur is > supposed to have done his stuff. > > When I win the lottery, I promise to buy you and me a ticket to adventure. > > >My point in asking if you were mocking me, Dolores, pointed more to the > >fact that I have felt so unheard, unresponded to and unacknowledged... > >heck, I didn't really even know if you were mocking me or not. Thanks for > >responding... I understand now you weren't. > > Well I am enjoying this conversation and to hell with anybody else that > doesnt. I am often reminded of the people that complain of something on the > television because it was offensive to them in some way or another, yet who > seem not to have noticed the fact there is an off switch. (or in the case of > eudora, trash) So anybody who doesnt like this..tough, post something of > more interest, or hit the trash can. > And no not mocking you, but understanding completely where you were coming > from. Maybe I even took a little inspiration from your post. In fact I have > been guilty of not responding to posts when I really wanted to, because I > have filed them in the to do, bit and then forgotten to do them. And by the > time I got round to do, it was to late to have done. > > > And I hope the whole time you are on your adventure, your heart beats > >wildly. :) > > > >Its going to beat with the ferocity of native drum, resonating so loudly > through the americas, they'll hear it pounding in their ears all the way in > the congo. > > Love > > Dolores > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:33:54 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: RE.How do I know if I am here or not??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter... You asked: > So if there is more how is that best "facilitated". Learning to > be such a "list therapist" is *exactly* on topic for the list. I > do my utmost to facilitate that, I'll even wear my new hat (still > to be purchased) while I'm typing, if I thought it would help. I > think that has been the general attitude here, all of us doing > the best we can, in our own way. So what do you, Holly, and > others think will help? What would a list therapist do? It is interesting to me that you asked this because I had already been thinking about it and about your role as a list facillitator which may or may not be the same as a list therapist. I have found your responses to almost everyone to be thoughtful, considerate, and conscientious. It's obvious to me that you spend a great deal of time and energy in exploring the meaning of the posts. I have always perceived a sense of caring from you. But there is a kind of paradox to me in that conscientiousness. First, most of your responses include so many questions that a kind of scattering all over the place seems to me to occur, what I think maybe Holly was referring to about tolerating girl venting. For example, you asked me whether I felt validated indirectly (was that the gist of what you were asking?) I responded... but did I miss a post that might have addressed my response to you, or was your asking me a *minimal encourager*? Personally I find minimal encouragers from men somewhat dismissive, but I realize it may be a gender issue for me. Second, in your conscientiousness and what seems to me to be a search for dialogue, the threads seem to me to go all over the place... I am glad to see more activity on Psyber-L, but I see lots of straggly loose ends at this point. Third, your conscientious and I think timely responses seem to remove responsibility from many of us, including me. I see a post from someone new that I consider responding to, but then think, oh well, Walter will respond. Fourth, I don't feel I know the real Walter at all. The Walter I perceive is a kind of enigma, a man who responds thoughtfully... but doesn't give a real clue to me as to who he is. I would like to know about *your* experiences counselling on the net, what you've found in self disclosure, knowing that your clients can read what you've written. In many ways, Walter, I think you are an explorer of the first order, who has a great deal of value to pass along to the rest of us. I wonder, though, if you have a kind of ambivalence yourself about your own self revelation? These are of course my own observations. Sheryl ---------- > From: Walter Logeman > To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM > Subject: Re: RE.How do I know if I am here or not??? > Date: Friday, April 25, 1997 5:22 AM > > JimC: > > > JimC: The list description is also the door that most of us walk trough > > to get here. Psybernet, you're not who you said you were - did you lie > > intentionally or were you too busy to be clear. > > I have not role reversed, and so am speaking purely as me, but it > is me that writes the description. I am busy, but it has had a > lot of work, and many revisions. I think it is both clear and > that we stick to the task, though we could do *more* and i hope > we will. > > I am very curious as to what you find misleading, unclear, and > how this list goes off-topic. > > On the "hub" question, and on the unfinished thread question I > think you are on target . . . and i wish i knew what we could do > to amend. > > Im interested to learn more . . . > > > Walter > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:18:24 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: obvious beast In-Reply-To: <199704240422.AAA21631@shell.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wilbur, all, I've waited for a few days to see what comes up in response to what struck me as an honest albeit appalling, (well, I was appalled,) post from Wilbur. Now I'm on the horns of a dilemma. Basically I'd like to respond with my emotional response but I also think to myself: "why?" which is a hard question. (At least I can hesitate these days!) Yet, oops, here I go...again... *** It seems to me that Wilbur's arrogant and patronizing tone contradicts this assertion of his: >I really have to say that if any woman wants to discuss >gender and it's role in this discussion, I have done NOTHING to prevent that >discussion in any way. Come on Wilbur, read between your own lines, man. You can't figure out how this kind of hostility works against a civilized discussion about gender? (You wrote:) >I have done some thinking about the topic, and I think that I have sorted >out most of the basic issues involved that create any real or percieved >differences between men and woman, but I'm not a activist in the field, and >given the nature of the feminist beast on the Internet, and the really >obvious nature of all of the things that I realized, (and after a lot of >effort, why I wasted so much time on it is a mystery), and the previous >comment about how I somehow prevented the discussion of gender's >differentiation.., I figure, why bother? The thinking that I've done isn't >going to be well recieved, too many ego and other issues in the mix.. and >it's going to take a lot of effort to write it out anyway. If I might twist your words: "I wasted time sorting out the basic issues; the thinking I've done won't be well received; given the nature of the feminist beast [!]; it's really obvious; why bother?" But, if your realizations are *so* obvious, it shouldn't be that much of an *effort* to write it out. Velcro your balls back on and dare to be a thorough caveman. Of course it won't be well received. What do you care? <---trick question! *** I make somewhat impovershed attempts to be careful so I don't have to carry too much of the shadow. That said, I learned long ago that the person who thinks he knows is usually quite terrified that he does not...and it's always (in my experience,) been a "He" even if it's undifferentiated animus jabber, and, at times, that *he* is me. Other times, it's Wilbur. HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:28:37 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: obvious beast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:18 PM 4/25/97 -0400, you wrote: Hoon wrote > It seems to me that Wilbur's arrogant and patronizing tone >contradicts this assertion of his: > >>I really have to say that if any woman wants to discuss >>gender and it's role in this discussion, I have done NOTHING to prevent that >>discussion in any way. > >Come on Wilbur, read between your own lines, man. You can't figure out how >this kind of hostility works against a civilized discussion about gender? Civilized discussion hardly ever gets to the real issues.. And I think that my hostility was quite well placed. The post was that a couple of men came in and dominated the discussion of gender so much that the women couldn't have a discussion. How childish this felt to me. How patronizing. I don't care if women are superiour or inferiour. I'm just tired of being told that my strong opinions and ability to express them prevent other people from being able to say what they need to say. >>I have done some thinking about the topic, and I think that I have sorted >>out most of the basic issues involved that create any real or percieved >>differences between men and woman, but I'm not a activist in the field, and >>given the nature of the feminist beast on the Internet, and the really >>obvious nature of all of the things that I realized, (and after a lot of >>effort, why I wasted so much time on it is a mystery), and the previous >>comment about how I somehow prevented the discussion of gender's >>differentiation.., I figure, why bother? The thinking that I've done isn't >>going to be well recieved, too many ego and other issues in the mix.. and >>it's going to take a lot of effort to write it out anyway. > >If I might twist your words: > >"I wasted time sorting out the basic issues; the thinking I've done won't >be well received; given the nature of the feminist beast [!]; it's really >obvious; why bother?" So? >But, if your realizations are *so* obvious, it shouldn't be that much of an >*effort* to write it out. Velcro your balls back on and dare to be a >thorough caveman. What makes you think that because the things are obvious, that they aren't complex and require a great deal of effort to communicate in a written word? Especially if they aren't to be misunderstood and the brunt of the sort of attacks that I've already been subject to, namely, Wilbur's (and a couple of other guys), are dominating the conversation about Gender.. boo hoo! >Of course it won't be well received. What do you care? <---trick question! Gender online isn't something that particularly interests me, because I'd rather treat people as equal, and avoid the sexual innuendo that flys around here, thereby pursuing my own interests. >*** > >I make somewhat impovershed attempts to be careful so I don't have to carry >too much of the shadow. That said, I learned long ago that the person who >thinks he knows is usually quite terrified that he does not... Fear of not knowing is a great motivator.. but convincing others has little to do with knowledge. You're right that it's arrogant. So? I've found that a great number of people don't wish to discuss issues from a real world perspective, they'd rather go along with the status quo. If you can convince me that I'm incorrect in that assumption, please do. >and it's >always (in my experience,) been a "He" even if it's undifferentiated animus >jabber, and, at times, that *he* is me. The domination of knowledge has traditionally been a male thing. For some strange reason "Feminism" has been raised to the level of philosophy. I can't imagine that it has the same fundamental structures as the other more traditional philosophys. I guess it might be time for "masculinism" to be a philosophy... but then all of the philosophys were created by men anyway. Sorry to be blunt, but men have always been the ones that have staked out intellectual territory. >Other times, it's Wilbur. So are you claiming that I'm not a man because I choose my battles? I believe that I am because I do. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:46:51 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: obvious beast In-Reply-To: <199704251728.NAA12625@shell.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >What makes you think that because the things are obvious, that they aren't >complex and require a great deal of effort to communicate in a written word? you cop out >[snip] because I'd >rather treat people as equal, and avoid the sexual innuendo that flys around >here, thereby pursuing my own interests. So does this mean you are going to *begin* treating people like equals *now*??? >The domination of knowledge has traditionally been a male thing. For some >strange reason "Feminism" has been raised to the level of philosophy. I >can't imagine that it has the same fundamental structures as the other more >traditional philosophys. huh??? >Sorry to be blunt, but men have always been the ones that have staked out >intellectual territory. > ROFL Time for Wilbur to start educating himself; your lack of background is telling. *** HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:11:45 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: obvious beast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:46 PM 4/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >>What makes you think that because the things are obvious, that they aren't >>complex and require a great deal of effort to communicate in a written word? > >you cop out Yeah sure, if you say so. >>[snip] because I'd >>rather treat people as equal, and avoid the sexual innuendo that flys around >>here, thereby pursuing my own interests. > >So does this mean you are going to *begin* treating people like equals *now*??? No, it means that I already do. How about you? >>The domination of knowledge has traditionally been a male thing. For some >>strange reason "Feminism" has been raised to the level of philosophy. I >>can't imagine that it has the same fundamental structures as the other more >>traditional philosophys. > >huh??? Go to a philosophy discussion and check out the list of "philosophies" that have are being taught in colleges now. You'll find "Secular Humanism", "Existentialism", works by Plato, Aristotle, and then the recent addition, "Feminism". >>Sorry to be blunt, but men have always been the ones that have staked out >>intellectual territory. >> > >ROFL > >Time for Wilbur to start educating himself; your lack of background is telling. See above. Even in this discussion the women moan because the men are already in there breaking up the territory.. like I said, and just is the benifit that I'll recieve from all of this, the claims from women that I'm sexist? As for your claim that I don't have a background, why don't you list the philosophies of the world for us and who is recognized with founding them? Check out the philosophical underpinning of "Feminism" and explain to me why that would even be considered a "philosophy". Oh, and I didn't forgot that men dominated women and took credit for all of their ideas. Amazing how the stupid half of the species managed to do that. I also noticed that you cut out about half of what I wrote before. Care to explain why? Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:14:30 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: obvious beast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oh yeah, I almost forgot.. Hoon, stop trying to show off for the women.. It'll just make you look foolish. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:29:28 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Gender again! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear all I wish we could get by this gender issue stuff, its creeping in furtively, under the cover of other things. I take great umbrage at being judged as a woman, I want you to judge me as a person first and foremost. I want replies to my posts because they are either good or bad, or thought making or crass, I do not want the fact I am a woman to be the first consideration. I feel you are pigeon holeing me, and saying well you think/ react like this because of your gender, and we think/react like this because of ours. The MEN here are making an issue where none exists. I am not less of a person because I am" less of a man" than the men on the list. Screw my animus or my anima basically, I am who I am. Just like Popeye. I hate the idea of men being on "my side" because my side is as a person first, or should be. If people thought Person first, then there would be no need to raise the subject of gender, and give it such importance. If we each looked at each other as people first, there'd be equally an awfull lot less issues raising their ugly heads in the world - Black people, fat people, thin people, the beautiful and the down right ugly, the disabled, the maimed, male female, third person gender.The beauty of cyberspace is that we cannot judge on what we see before us the way we do in life, age, sex, gender, race, religion, none of these things are important here, and they shouldnt carry weight. Everybody here has a voice, or a right to one if they so choose. The prejudices of real life, don't have to exist here, unless we chose to birth them and give them life. Yes I am a woman, and I am kind of proud of that. I am not as physically as strong as a man, and that is as far as I am concerned the only difference between us. Any other differences, have been dumped on me by society, telling me that Men are from Venus and Women are from Mars. Deep down we are all the same people. Its life thats given us seperate roles, society that says women are far more emotional for example. We are not, we have just been given or allowed different ways to express it. I dont go through my life, reminding myself of that fact everyday that I am a woman. I am me. Me the person, me the individual. I dont want to generalise or be generalised against. At times some of the men here have shown themselves to be equally as hormonal as any of the women. Good for them, cyberspace is a good place to encourage androgynous thoughts and feelings or should be. I don't want to have to fight for equality, because in my mind I already have it. I feel the greatest pity for those that can't say that, for whatever reason. I am glad that in part I have the liberty of that Luxury. 48 hours to go till the great escape. :) Love Dolores. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 02:59:22 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Re: Gender again! In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970425222430.2157b36a@easynet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I take great umbrage at being judged as a woman, I want you to judge me as a >person first and foremost. I want replies to my posts because they are >either good or bad, or thought making or crass, I do not want the fact I am >a woman to be the first consideration. >I feel you are pigeon holeing me, and saying well you think/ react like this >because of your gender, and we think/react like this because of ours. >The MEN here are making an issue where none exists. Dolores, Swap 'man' for 'woman' in the first paragraph and your statement reflects exactly the way I feel. It is my approach to life, also, to see people as people first and foremost, not to pigeonhole them. As for your second paragraph, then: I feel you are pigeonholing *me* >I dont go through my life, reminding myself of that fact everyday that I am >a woman. I am me. Me the person, me the individual. I dont want to >generalise or be generalised against. Again, this is my approach. >At times some of the men here have >shown themselves to be equally as hormonal as any of the women. Good for >them, cyberspace is a good place to encourage androgynous thoughts and >feelings or should be. When I first got into mooing, just over three years ago now, I took the decision from the outset that I would assume neutral gender designation and give myself a non gender-specific name and description, and that is how I stayed for many months. I saw in the text-based virtual worlds a unique opportunity to test my own feelings about gender in general - that it is a continuum - and about my own gender in particular. I wanted to see how others would perceive me, and see if it was possible to establish close friendships with people without the 'safety factor' of fe/male identification. It was a wonderful time, fascinating and enthralling, and I wouldn't swap it for the world. I hope that cyberspace/psyberspace will enable people to discover their true fluid natures, to shake off the conditioning that comes from being embedded in political, economic and sociocultural systems that require people to be neatly compartmentalised, and to begin to see the true continuum nature of reality. Yes, we should be able to celebrate difference ('variety' is perhaps a better word), but not artificially-created differences. >I don't want to have to fight for equality, because in my mind I already >have it. Well, the world being what it is you probably will have to, but at least you won't have to fight yourself as well, eh? Like many things, equality begins as a state of mind. I wonder if this post will be seen/interpreted as one of those 'I'm on your side because you're a woman' posts that you refer to. Do you see it like that? I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself or 'side' with anyone because they are male or female or whatever. That sort of thing makes me cringe. >48 hours to go till the great escape. :) Dolores, I hope you have a wonderful time in the States. May you have a great adventure! *And* live to tell us the tale, perhaps ;) all the best, Simon _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:38:49 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: obvious beast In-Reply-To: <199704251814.OAA19135@shell.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Oh yeah, I almost forgot.. > >Hoon, stop trying to show off for the women.. > >It'll just make you look foolish. > >Wilbur Wilbs, I want to look foolish. For the women, sure, but for *you* especially! HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:21:59 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: obvious beast In-Reply-To: <199704251811.OAA18764@shell.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>So does this mean you are going to *begin* treating people like equals >>>*now*??? > >No, it means that I already do. How about you? No, Wilbur, I don't treat people like equals. It doesn't *yet* interest me to do so. But neither do you. That you can make such a claim after writing several screens' full of sexist, patronizing, and ignorant claptrap is typical for some of us guys. >>>The domination of knowledge has traditionally been a male thing. For some >>>strange reason "Feminism" has been raised to the level of philosophy. I >>>can't imagine that it has the same fundamental structures as the other more >>>traditional philosophys. >> >>huh??? I said huh? because I'm wondering what the heck you mean by "Feminism". However, in your preposterous formulation just to say that your, (read: Wilbur's own,) monolithic Feminism has been 'raised' to any level of anything is a bald enough exertion. Then you go on to suggest that there are "traditional philosophies" which have "fundamental structures". huh? Are you absolutely sure, or did you make this part up? Do you have to go to college to learn about this tradition? *** Maybe, due to the illusion of technique, something that doesn't have a 'fundamental structure' is on a 'righter' track. *** foolishly, HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:25:25 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: obvious beast In-Reply-To: <199704251811.OAA18764@shell.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wilbur suggests that HooN: >Check out the philosophical underpinning of "Feminism" and explain to me why >that would even be considered a "philosophy". This does raise a good question about what kinds of underpinnings justify 'something' (pardon my imprecision,) being 'considered' a philosophy. Alas, it also begs the question of how underpinnings justify anything being called anything. ooops, ROFL, again. *** Let me hazard a statement: "Experience Is Sacred." I don't want to confuse this statement with any particular 'philosophical underpinning' but, for me, it is self-explanatory and adequate, even parsimonious, as a *philosophy*. It isn't Feminism, it's just what this pathetic creature Stephen has learned from Feminism, that's all. Being mindful of this 'lesson' helps me to answer a question I have a great deal of ongoing trouble with: "What is most valuable to you right now?" *** Foolishness isn't a problem. Some women, many men, think I'm an ass. I won't dispute them about this. Besides, men dominate the field of ignorance. ;^) Some of us are leaders in this field... *** HooN "Whoever breaks the merchandise, must have bought it first." - Rabi'a, ra (9th century philosopher) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:39:44 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: obvious beast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:21 PM 4/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>So does this mean you are going to *begin* treating people like equals >>>>*now*??? >> >>No, it means that I already do. How about you? > >No, Wilbur, I don't treat people like equals. It doesn't *yet* interest me >to do so. But neither do you. That you can make such a claim after writing >several screens' full of sexist, patronizing, and ignorant claptrap is >typical for some of us guys. In case you didn't know it, you can only speak for yourself. So you must the one that is spouting "sexist, patronizing, and ignorant claptrap". Nominalizing the things that I said by calling them "sexist, patronizing, and ingnorant claptrap" is precisely the reason that I didn't even bother to write out the things that I've thought out about the differences between men and woman. Despite your claims that I didn't need to worry about that sort of thing, you turn around and do precisely that. Thank you for proving my point for me. >>>>The domination of knowledge has traditionally been a male thing. For some >>>>strange reason "Feminism" has been raised to the level of philosophy. I >>>>can't imagine that it has the same fundamental structures as the other more >>>>traditional philosophys. >>> >>>huh??? > >I said huh? because I'm wondering what the heck you mean by "Feminism". >However, in your preposterous formulation just to say that your, (read: >Wilbur's own,) monolithic Feminism has been 'raised' to any level of >anything is a bald enough exertion. I posted a follow on, or did you miss that? >Then you go on to suggest that there are "traditional philosophies" which >have "fundamental structures". And I asked you to deliniate the differences of the structures, since you claim that you are the knowledgable one.. So where is it? >huh? Are you absolutely sure, or did you make this part up? Do you have to >go to college to learn about this tradition? No, they teach a lot of this in high school, and in the local churches.. they also have the material in libraries.. but you claimed that I was the one that am ignorant, so why are you asking me? >*** > >Maybe, due to the illusion of technique, something that doesn't have a >'fundamental structure' is on a 'righter' track. Yeah, sure. Feminism has a fundamental structure. Check it out sometime. It's just that they can't mention the real assumptions of feminism in Philosophical studies.. But then, once again, you claim to the knowledgable one.. > Whatever that's supposed to mean.. >*** > >foolishly, Obviously.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:39:59 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: obvious beast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:25 PM 4/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >Wilbur suggests that HooN: > >>Check out the philosophical underpinning of "Feminism" and explain to me why >>that would even be considered a "philosophy". > >This does raise a good question about what kinds of underpinnings justify >'something' (pardon my imprecision,) being 'considered' a philosophy. Alas, >it also begs the question of how underpinnings justify anything being >called anything. > >ooops, ROFL, again. > >*** > >Let me hazard a statement: > >"Experience Is Sacred." > >I don't want to confuse this statement with any particular 'philosophical >underpinning' but, for me, it is self-explanatory and adequate, even >parsimonious, as a *philosophy*. It isn't Feminism, it's just what this >pathetic creature Stephen has learned from Feminism, that's all. You can feel free to document those lessons, since they must have been simple ones.. And as you said, if they are simple, then you must be able to write them out easily.. >Being mindful of this 'lesson' helps me to answer a question I have a great >deal of ongoing trouble with: "What is most valuable to you right now?" As in your as asking yourself? I suppose that you're a woman and that's why it's so important to you? Or is that your philosophy of life? What's most valuable to me right now? That would be a greed based perspective, or do you have a little more going on when you say that? >*** > >Foolishness isn't a problem. Some women, many men, think I'm an ass. I >won't dispute them about this. Besides, men dominate the field of >ignorance. ;^) Some of us are leaders in this field... There you go being sexist.. Feel like you're in quicksand yet? Maybe now you know why I'm not interested in pursuing the differences in experience of men and women in cyberspace. Still just me, intellectually agressive, and tired of being bashed because I'm an intellectually agressive male. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:49:25 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Gender again! In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970425222430.2157b36a@easynet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dolores, all, >I take great umbrage at being judged as a woman, I want you to judge me as a >person first and foremost. I do observe my self all the time being aware that this or that is the expression of a man or a woman. So, I must judge people as such to some extent. I'm not at all sure how this affects my judgement. If I had to pick someone from this list to be trapped on a desert island with for six months I'd be in a real quandry. *** >The prejudices of real life, don't have to exist here, unless we chose to >birth them and give them life. This may be possible but the rub for me is that my prejudices are already born, alive and in some way living me. Here, as much as over *there*. *** Dolores, have a wonderful, safe trip and a BIG adventure. HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:13:07 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: obvious beast In-Reply-To: <199704260339.XAA14376@shell.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >"What is most valuable to you right now?" > >> That would be a greed based perspective, or do >>you have a little more going on when you say that? Sometimes greed, other times, value extending to charity etc. But, yeah, much of the time greed, or self-interest. > >There you go being sexist.. I am a sexist. Duh. > >Feel like you're in quicksand yet? Yup. Totally over my head in fact. Overwhelmed. glubglub > >Maybe now you know why I'm not interested in pursuing the differences in >experience of men and women in cyberspace. > >Still just me, intellectually agressive, and tired of being bashed because >I'm an intellectually agressive male. > Oh Wilbur I think you're tired of being bashed because you're insecure about your intellect. My poor attempt, childish really, to 'bash' you is because I'm insecure about my own intellect, much more than it is about trying to match your intellect with reasonable arguement about what it has expressed. But, that's just my opinion and now I'm feeling the projection I've made upon you wane and the complex which activates my own narcissism and aggressive response is losing it's energy so probably I am getting a bit of why Wilbur is "not interested in pursuing the differences in experience of men and women in cyberspace". Anyway, you and I are a lot alike, imo. Or, I feel I'm like you in some important, deep, ways. HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 06:56:58 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: RE.How do I know if I am here or not??? In-Reply-To: <199704251341.HAA23299@henge1.henge.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sheryl, > Walter... >=20 > You asked: >=20 > > . . . how is that best "facilitated". =20 > It is interesting to me that you asked this because I had already > been thinking about it and about your role as a list facillitator which= may > or may not be the same as a list therapist. >=20 > I have found your responses to almost everyone to be thoughtful, > considerate, and conscientious. It's obvious to me that you spend a = great > deal of time and energy in exploring the meaning of the posts. =20 Yes and no. In that I have 15 min between clients and I am warmed up to the whole list, and usually "up-to-date" with it, it is easy to just whip out a 5 min post here and there. It does not 8feel8 like time or energy. However, I have learn that I can only be in one list at a time. To try to do more does not work.=20 > I have > always perceived a sense of caring from you. But there is a kind of > paradox to me in that conscientiousness. Great to have you put those words on it. I sense it. > First, most of your responses include so many questions that a kind of > scattering all over the place seems to me to occur,=20 The questions seem genuine to me, I am interested in hearing how it is for others, a constant not knowing how this is for others here. But they don't seem to get answered, so they are flawed in some way, futility in them. I'll be more conscious of the next question!=20 I see unity in the list not a scattering, even with the unanswered posts and fragmented threads, they all seem to give voice to *one* story, one unfolding. I'd like to say more, and might make new post, sometime, voicing the *story* as I see it. I'm sure it is one story among many. =20 You go in to say: > what I think maybe > Holly was referring to about tolerating girl venting. For example, = you > asked me whether I felt validated indirectly (was that the gist of what= you > were asking?) =20 Yes that was my question. =20 > I responded... but did I miss a post that might have > addressed my response to you, or was your asking me a *minimal = encourager*? No, I was interested in that question. You see I thought that your post and Is'e's post came in quick succession. I had them both sitting here for a while (or so it all seemed . . . how I recall it, I wont check dates etc.) I actually did a bit of waiting to see if others would come in, which I don't think happened. Then I chose Is'es post to respond to. I think there was a passage there that grabbed me particularly. (Just as on this occasion the word "scattered" has drawn me back. So much so that I want to write a separate post on the "unified" story.) However I was conscious that there were some parallels with your post and hers, and I recall thinking, this will be of interest to Sheryl, it will add indirectly to what she is raising. Others I think followed that thread, and I still had the sense you might have felt heard. =20 Obviously you did not. =20 =20 And you did reply, and I did not, I lost that thread even though you had interesting stuff to say, even about your ethics on the Internet, which could have led to discussion here, and perhaps helped you with your paper. How did it go? Here is what you said in your last Psychopomp post: | > Via the indirect discussion do you feel heard? | This was a good question, Walter. I have visions of=20 | the Great and Powerful Oz. But, oh oh... open the=20 | curtain and he's just an ordinary middle aged man. =20 Is this what you hoped for a reply on? The response I have given above, came easily from you post, I was warmed up to respond. It seemed like we have an opening here for useful dialog, which would be not unrelated to the Gender debate, but an *indirectly* tune into it. =20 That other stuff about powerful Oz did not do that. No criticism, but was a bit confused by it as well. I feel entirely like an ordinary middle aged man, and I was not sure if you were referring to me or not? I perhaps refrained from responding because of that song: "Your so vain, you think this song is about you, don't you!" =20 > Personally I find minimal encouragers from men somewhat dismissive, but= I > realize it may be a gender issue for me. I can see how that could happen. A patronising Hmmm. No substance. I can see how it is gender related too -- even the etymology of the word supports you in that: in reverse it would not be matronizing, matriarchal power, if it exists is a different thing from patriarchy. =20 I don't think I was using a minimal encourager, but, I did not follow the thread, till now, and the analysis of my motives, thoughts and experience may shed some light on how such a thread may come to a fizzle, which so far it has not, perhaps thanks to Jim the E for modeling his "expectation" of a response. I welcome your persistence, and it is needed it seems. =20 I am still confused as to how this relates to the tolerance of girl venting. =20 Mmmm perhaps it is this: The way I behave is giving you, and perhaps holly the idea that . . . Here is a middle aged man, who thinks of all women as scatterbrained but benign creatures, girls! and he throws out the odd Mmmm, yes and Aha to tolerate their girlish chatter. Oh my god. Is that how I come across. Or is this not what was meant at all, in which case *where did the notion come from?* (That is not a question just a cringe.) OK, I have learnt that if someone has a negative fantasy then it is a good idea to look for the grain of truth. Your perceptions are not totally off beam -- hopefully, for me, somewhat. I live and work with women, at one stage we had four women in our house plus me. Now it is down to 2. Honestly I feel like an outsider to the flow of feminine discussion. The ebb and flow of the moods in our house is like the sea, and beyond me. Fights can happen and I think they will be the end of the relationship between the women, and then suddenly they are better friends than ever. And the moon does come into it! I an by contrast stereotypically quiet, steady. I am tolerant too. =20 This is fairly typical of my life really, and I think I have not done a bad job of learning the language, at least to understand it. I do a lot of couple work, counselling, and having lived among women the way I do, it is easier for me to see their perspective. Also easy to see the male behaviours, even when embryonic, that really annoy the women. =20 There are so many subtle levels of put down. It is really hard to avoid them, I am probably in the midst of them now. I think my perception of some of these things began by being the eldest son, with a manic depressive mother. (so called -- so called mother too!, but I was thinking more of the vicious mis labelling of the situation she was in as a mental illness, which it was not, it was oppression.) Unintentional, subtle, global, but vicious debilitating oppression, from the culture, perhaps initially her father and sexual abuse, the war, my father, and his "helpful" cooperation with the medical profession. Anyway, I also went through the 70's where the women in the commune went to live in a house on their own, leaving all the men in another house. Actually my then wife and I left at that point prolonging the agony of our *painful* marriage another 5 years. During those years I did a lot of child care. Including being the only man at the play centre as a parent helper. I recall sitting around at morning tea wit 6 women discussion their periods, and attempting to join in some way! I am a better communicator then than now -- so it was a bit of a mess! =20 I could tell you more about my life as a man with women . . .=20 Anyway, perhaps through this more personal sharing it is easier to see what is right and what is wrong about your perceptions of me. Perhaps a bit of both. ~~~ > Second, in your conscientiousness and what seems to me to be a search = for > dialogue, the threads seem to me to go all over the place... I am glad = to > see more activity on Psyber-L, but I see lots of straggly loose > ends at this point. Yes. Perhaps the unity I see in the story is a different thing from the loose ends everywhere, perhaps we could do the *story* better if we could prevent the straggle . . . This is the PWP theme again. Chaos is an unfolding flower. We need this chaos, to have the unity, we can't steer it, we can only *perceive* the thread afterwards. Never the less more steering required? Perhaps not steering but holding the focus in other ways. =20 > Third, your conscientious and I think timely responses seem to remove > responsibility from many of us, including me. I see a post from = someone > new that I consider responding to, but then think, oh well, Walter will > respond. I know, this happens. Is it conscientiousness? I don't think so entirely, it may be style of work, and simply that I am here. I have a laptop, I check email -- that is how I am. Right now Kate is here in the room, we are listening to the stereo, she's reading, we have worked hard on the landscaping all day, I started reading too, then the word "scattered" cam up in my book, and I needed to come here! This is not a chore, a way of relaxing. When I leave for a while things sometimes go better, no dependency on me. Sometimes they just die. =20 I could change my Psyber-L habits, and change may be thrust upon me, but . . . In the meantime please don't let my response stop yours. If I respond to something do I then kill the thread? God I hope not. Wilbur said all this. I argued with him on it, perhaps I should look at that again? It may mean responding to a more complex discussion, with several people in the post, each with their words there, I hope people do that, and also return to threads they want discussed more. Take responsibility for the straggle . . .=20 > Fourth, I don't feel I know the real Walter at all. The Walter I = perceive > is a kind of enigma, a man who responds thoughtfully... but doesn't = give a > real clue to me as to who he is. =20 Is this post changing that a little? I did have this in mind as I wrote, and it has enabled me to go on for a bit. You see I have a feeling I say too much here, as you know, I have asked about this a few times. I am now thinking, perhaps say more but be more focussed, follow a thread more carefully, relate to one person longer. Makes sense, so thanks for the feed back. =20 ~~~ I think this is not just personal learning for me. If this learning has a positive impact on the list than it will be something we can use as list facilitators: =3D=3D Self-disclosure =3D=3D 1. =20 2. =20 3. =20 We could enumerate the principles involved. I do wonder just how many here are wanting to apply this sort of learning on the net? Perhaps that is where the experiential learning focus of the list falls down, that there are not enough other list facilitators. If there were, like Charles, they'd be too busy to be here -- problem situation. =20 Perhaps we need a confidential moderated list for list owners. ~~~ > I would like to know about *your* > experiences counselling on the net, what you've found in self = disclosure, > knowing that your clients can read what you've written. =20 I have not done a lot of counselling on the net. In some ways I'd like to, but not as much as I would like to find a way to run PsyberGroups, for a fee. That seems the hard one! Also facilitation of lists for organisations is a more feasible option at the moment that I am pursuing. That plus a rl practice is enough. The counselling that I have done, was with people who were not on this list, and I don't think they took too much notice of what I wrote. =20 None of my many clients in rl have ever indicated they go to the archives here . . . However they *could*, in a way I hope they will some day, I think how to work with our Internet alter ego in the rl world, is a worthwhile challenge. Now that would be a good thread if it ever comes up, but till it does it is probably a side issue. ~~~ In many ways, > Walter, I think you are an explorer of the first order, who has a great > deal of value to pass along to the rest of us. =20 Thank you. Explorer fits. > I wonder, though, if you > have a kind of ambivalence yourself about your own self revelation? Yes. More of their value as a list facilitator. I also don't want this list to be a Walter journal with onlookers, I am serious about it being for the purpose stated in the Description, and would be happy to self disclose (mostly) if it were in tune with that purpose, as I think it is right now. > These are of course my own observations. Of course, and mine. I think that the more observations I make, the more I want to know what others think. I am not wedded to my observations. (Except the unity of the list, and that it is doing what is in the Description, I am a bit stubborn on that, but open to challenge of course.) Walter=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:17:01 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: FRITZ Comments: To: "Dr.W.Schmidt" In-Reply-To: <199704260418.NAA29078@n1.ele.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46RITZ, Have forwarded your regards to the list. Have a good time there in Japan, and look forward to the return of your =20 > Hi Walter, >=20 > I am reading the archives of Psyber-L from Japan. Everything is well > organized, so no problems at all. Congratulation! Interesting = discussions > still going on, but I shall not sign on. Perhaps when I am back in = Germany. >=20 > Regards to all, FRITZ >=20 >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Tsuyoshi KAWAI, Ph.D. > Department of Electronic Engineering, > Faculty of Engineering, Osaka University > 2-1 Yamada-Oka, Suita, Osaka 565, JAPAN > e-mail; kawai@ele.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp > Phone; +81-6-879-7759 > Fax +81-6-875-0506 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 05:53:33 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: RE.How do I know if I am here or not??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Logeman wrote: > > JimC: > > > JimC: The list description is also the door that most of us walk trough > > to get here. Psybernet, you're not who you said you were - did you lie > > intentionally or were you too busy to be clear. > > I have not role reversed, and so am speaking purely as me, but it > is me that writes the description. I am busy, but it has had a > lot of work, and many revisions. I think it is both clear and > that we stick to the task, though we could do *more* and i hope > we will. > > I am very curious as to what you find misleading, unclear, and > how this list goes off-topic. Apologies Walter, what I wrote above was "misplaced crankiness". I had started to write a role reversal post with psybernet but was struggling. I left it, went off to work (where I managed to resolve a number of issues that were niggling at me) then came back to try and finish the post. I read the above words, said to myself, "NOT IT!" and instead wrote, >JimC: In an earlier post I had inserted the list description. I did >this to illustrate the 'door' I had walked through to get here. The >intent was not to deliver "commandments" but rather to try and explain >why, since the list's content is somewhat divergent from the >description, it is difficult for new members to find the space to speak >in. > Then I sent the whole thing without deleting the cranky version . So, what do I find divergent? Well - its that a lot of the content is focussed around people's interior feelings and thoughts - not dissimilar to what I've experienced as a counsellor. On the other hand I was expecting things more along the lines of discussions of the kind of work that Dan and Wilbur are doing. The result for me has been a bit like the old Monty Python routine, the one where the chap looking for an argument walks into the room marked "ABUSE" by mistake. After being ranted at he's eventually told "Oops, wrong room, ARGUMENT is down the hall". Now on rereading the list description, I do note that it does say "depth psychology" and I must admit I don't have a working definition of that. Perhaps the issue is not that the psybernet door is labelled incorrectly but rather that I'm not able to read correctly. In other words, the content here maybe depth psychology in action. Perhaps you or someone else could help me with a description of "depth psychology"? > On the "hub" question, and on the unfinished thread question I > think you are on target . . . and i wish i knew what we could do > to amend. I think my 'lost posting' on Re.Room at the In? starts to speak to this so will forward it back. > > Im interested to learn more . . . > That's a good thing for all of us. Sorry for the cranky bit. ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 06:10:32 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: [Fwd: Re: Room at the in ?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9BB37A1467B" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9BB37A1467B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was sent some time ago to Eva (by my clumsiness) rather than to the list. I discovered the mistake and was unsure whether to still send it, so corresponded with Walter as follows, Re: [Fwd: Re: Room at the in ?] (wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz (Walter Logeman), Fri 7:17) To: jfcalder@easynet.on.ca >Jim, >> Greetings Walter. Hope the holiday weekend is an enjoyable one for you. >> I've attached a post here that I somehow managed to send to Eva rather >>than to the list. I've never had a response from her and I'm not at all >> sure if the post is at all helpful at this point. I'd appreciate your >> opinion whether its worthwhile to have this posted. Thanks! >I'd say send it! As it happens i have just fiddled with the >software, to ensure that most if not all users have the List >address come up as Reply to: , which is probably the reasonm this >did not go to the list at the time. >Please do send it -- I never experience any post as an intrusion >except the spams that sometimes creep in. However i am deeply >involved in the ongoing themes, and perhaps not often in the role >of "host". >& thanks for your interest and thoughtful comment. I welcome it. >Feel free to send all of this to the list. So now, here's my now "out of context" post. ...Jim --------------9BB37A1467B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3358B80F.5B7@easynet.on.ca> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:18:23 -0400 From: JFCalder Reply-To: jfcalder@easynet.om.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eva.blomqvist@lund.mail.telia.com Subject: Re: Room at the in ? References: <33589F5D.30C6@lund.mail.telia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eva Blomquist wrote: = > Jim > = > I agree with you. You formulated what i fellt about my subscription to > this list. > But maybe it "is" intrusive to pop in and say hello when someone just > have died. > I joined this list for the opportunity to learn moore about "cyber > space" in a relational way. > I think that the rules of RL is present here. Sometimes there are more > than one need present at the time. I think about Bion=B4s "singleton" > feeling is what we (the new ones) are > experiencing at the moment on this list. The ordinary group-process. > = > Well now i=B4m in. I made my first comment ! > = > Eva > = > Perhaps there are silence on this list? > = Hi Eva, sorry I haven't been able to respond before now - work and family command most of my time. Thank you for letting me know you share some of my feelings re. this place, thanks also to DDunn and Walter for their acknowledgments. Grandpa Bob leaves me somewhat mystified - when is an archetype a facade and which of these is 'Grandpa Bob'? I'll accept guidance from anyone re. this issue. Your comment re. "intrusion" are well taken, I suspect the group I've referred to as the "players" does perceive us as intruders, witness Dolores and her "misguided newbie" comment, witness to that although many posts have been generated in response to the original "Room at the Inn", almost none of them were in direct response, the players moved quickly to talk to each other and seem to ignore posts from "newbies". = Yes Eva, there have been traumas here but I'm not sure that this explains the feeling of intrusion experienced by some of us. I would ask the players, is there anything a "newbie" can say that is not an intrusion? Walter, I would ask that you not respond to this, think of it as a test of my earlier "hub" hypothesis. =2E..Jim --------------9BB37A1467B-- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 07:30:22 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: RE.How do I know if I am here or not??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, Sheryl, thank you both for a wonderful discussion. Having just read your posts to each other on this theme, I'm feeling better about this list and I hope I'm starting to get some understanding of the process supporting the content of psybernet. Along the line of process, the following was said by the 2 of you, > > > ..., your conscientious and I think timely responses seem to remove > > responsibility from many of us, including me. I see a post from someone > > new that I consider responding to, but then think, oh well, Walter will > > respond. > > I know, this happens. Is it conscientiousness? I don't think so > entirely, it may be style of work, and simply that I am here. I > have a laptop, I check email -- that is how I am. Right now Kate > is here in the room, we are listening to the stereo, she's > reading, we have worked hard on the landscaping all day, I > started reading too, then the word "scattered" cam up in my book, > and I needed to come here! This is not a chore, a way of > relaxing. > > When I leave for a while things sometimes go better, no > dependency on me. Sometimes they just die. > > I could change my Psyber-L habits, and change may be thrust upon > me, but . . . > > In the meantime please don't let my response stop yours. If I > respond to something do I then kill the thread? God I hope not. > Wilbur said all this. I argued with him on it, perhaps I should > look at that again? It may mean responding to a more complex > discussion, with several people in the post, each with their > words there, I hope people do that, and also return to threads > they want discussed more. Take responsibility for the straggle . > . . > > > Fourth, I don't feel I know the real Walter at all. The Walter I perceive > > is a kind of enigma, a man who responds thoughtfully... but doesn't give a > > real clue to me as to who he is. > > Is this post changing that a little? I did have this in mind as > I wrote, and it has enabled me to go on for a bit. You see I > have a feeling I say too much here, as you know, I have asked > about this a few times. I am now thinking, perhaps say more but > be more focussed, follow a thread more carefully, relate to one > person longer. Makes sense, so thanks for the feed back. > Facilitation is a complex activity enough activity that I have never (well almost never) been able to be both facilitator and participant. To me, a facilitator needs to be focussed almost purely on the process - in a sense floating outside the content of discussion and intervening only as necessary (in the process) when the participants are blocked by their process. This of course creates something of a dilemma for the facilitator "What to do when vitally interested in the content?" The answer (for me) is to become a participant and stop being a facilitator. I offer the observation Walter that your "thoughtfulness and conscientiousness" are perfect for a participant and in conflict with the role of facilitator (at least as I've defined it above). This is in no way intended as a comment on your competence as a facilitator Walter, rather I'm suggesting that you are so vitally interested in the content of this list that you NEED to be a participant. If the list is healthy, then participants can take turns, as needed, to intervene in the process - the responsibility to manage the process should be shared by all participants and should not be the sole responsibility of the facilitator. If I pick up on Sheryl's OZ theme, its as if psybernet's participants are the Scarecrow, Tinman and Lion. We're off to see the Wizard (Walter the facilitator) where we can request brain, heart and courage. Meanwhile of course, we already have these things and the Wizard well, he'd really rather just sit down and swap stories about Kansas. (forgive me if I presume too much.) Well that's it for me. Its Saturday morning here (Southern Ontario) and we finally have a sunny spring day. We're off to the zoo where the 3 yr old wants to look for "elebants". Hitherto they've existed only in books so this promises to be a day of revelations. ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 07:41:41 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: obvious beast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen, Wilbur thankyou for your words, you've got me singing a song I'd forgotten. Its from Monty Python (the philosophers who've served as one of the foundations of my life). " Oh I'm a lumberjack and I'm OKaay! I sleeps all night, and I works all daay! I dress in women's clothing, and call my PAA ... MAMA! ..." Cheers! I'll go take my estrogen now. (Mysogyny begets Androgeny) ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 06:59:32 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kataryn Subject: Re: "Feeling Of Intrusion" ~~Hub Hypothesis Comments: cc: jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA >FROM:{Jim} jfcalder@easynet.on.ca Posted4/26 to list: Letter To Walter: > > >>Jim, > >>> Greetings Walter. Hope the holiday weekend is an enjoyable one for you. >>> I've attached a post here that I somehow managed to send to Eva rather >>>than to the list. I've never had a response from her and I'm not at all >>> sure if the post is at all helpful at this point. I'd appreciate your >>> opinion whether its worthwhile to have this posted. Thanks! > >>I'd say send it! As it happens i have just fiddled with the >>software, to ensure that most if not all users have the List >>address come up as Reply to: , which is probably the reasonm this >>did not go to the list at the time. > >>Please do send it -- I never experience any post as an intrusion >>except the spams that sometimes creep in. However i am deeply >>involved in the ongoing themes, and perhaps not often in the role >>of "host". > >>& thanks for your interest and thoughtful comment. I welcome it. > >>Feel free to send all of this to the list. > >So now, here's my now "out of context" post. > >...Jim > >--------------9BB37A1467B > >Eva Blomquist wrote: {To Jim} > = > >> Jim >> = > >> I agree with you. You formulated what i fellt about my subscription to >> this list. >> But maybe it "is" intrusive to pop in and say hello when someone just >> have died. >> I joined this list for the opportunity to learn moore about "cyber >> space" in a relational way. >> I think that the rules of RL is present here. Sometimes there are more >> than one need present at the time. I think about Bion=B4s "singleton" >> feeling is what we (the new ones) are >> experiencing at the moment on this list. The ordinary group-process. >> = > >> Well now i=B4m in. I made my first comment ! >> = > >> Eva >> ={Reply to Eva from Jim~~~Then sent to Walter for list posting} > >> Perhaps there are silence on this list? >> = > >Hi Eva, sorry I haven't been able to respond before now - work and >family command most of my time. Thank you for letting me know you share >some of my feelings re. this place, thanks also to DDunn and Walter for >their acknowledgments. Grandpa Bob leaves me somewhat mystified - when >is an archetype a facade and which of these is 'Grandpa Bob'? I'll >accept guidance from anyone re. this issue. > >Your comment re. "intrusion" are well taken, I suspect the group I've >referred to as the "players" does perceive us as intruders, witness >Dolores and her "misguided newbie" comment, witness to that although >many posts have been generated in response to the original "Room at the >Inn", almost none of them were in direct response, the players moved >quickly to talk to each other and seem to ignore posts from "newbies". = > >Yes Eva, there have been traumas here but I'm not sure that this >explains the feeling of intrusion experienced by some of us. I would >ask the players, is there anything a "newbie" can say that is not an >intrusion? Walter, I would ask that you not respond to this, think of >it as a test of my earlier "hub" hypothesis. > >=2E..Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> To: Walter, Jim, ~~~All List Members~~ Very interesting observations Jim. You have indeed been making a very noble effort on the part of "newcomers" to this list, to definately attempt to get the attention of those you have welled named, the "players". As you know, those who wave enough flags, finally, finally are noticed! You certainly deserve one big golden star for hanging in there.....and certainly my admiration. I must express the feeling, of perhaps, more mystification. After a three month period, it is difficult to still feel like a "newcomer", {rare on most lists}, however, within this world, it certainly "Just Is". After four prior postings....or perhaps more a "similar query", {but much more subtle} just decided to sort of move back into the rose haze......watch the world takes a couple of whirls....watch the DreamEvent wind down.......let Walter return from his vacation........and see what directions the four winds would blow. Still feel the cross currents running~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, I did do the posting "Is there Life without Walter" Sheryl certainly was "right on" asking that Walter tell us all more about "Who's Walter". Walter ~~~~~ Certainly was appreciated hearing your response, as I too, had many of those same thoughts, but could certainly not have expressed then as well as Sheryl. I do have one question Walter. Are you posting all of the responses to this list in total? Posting all of your responses? Or are you taking out a sentence here and there....and then responding? I find you responding to comments I have not previously seen posted......... or does it just seem that way? By the way,Walter~~~~~ you have twice mentioned your hope of doing "group counseling" with this media and making it into a paying enity. I have been doing individual "executive crisis counseling" on line for over a year now, which is really a blend of the corporate world structures and related stressors, with all of the personal reactives within this world. It has been most successful, to the point where I must now limit the number of clients that I am able to provide quality time. I can, however, certainly preceive that in the very near future, I will be moving this into a group modality format. I preceive of the potential success, by already knowing the clients initially and recognizing the potential compatability of similar minds and interests. If I were to guess, IMHO, I would tend to believe that individuals that joined the list are really here to be able to start expressing their inner feelings, more so, than to exchange philosophical views of Jung. Your list was posted on one of my law lists, so I joined, presuming this was basically a "lawyers list", and somehow us lawyers would be expressing thoughts unrelated to the law itself...{Welcome relief!} Just stating how I arrived here. The sun shall soon be rising, and enough said in the night winds. Kataryn ~~~Memory Is The Power To Gather Roses In The Dark Of Winter~~~ PS: Robert..Forget Grandpa Bob ...Sierge is who you are..so just be! _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 07:57:10 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: obvious beast In-Reply-To: <3361E9F5.6EDE@easynet.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jim, Thanks back at ya. (Mysogyny begets Androgeny) > This would be a good bumper sticker...at least on my car. HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:47:45 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Re: obvious beast In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Feel like you're in quicksand yet? > >Yup. Totally over my head in fact. Overwhelmed. glubglub >now I'm feeling the projection I've made >upon you wane and the complex which activates my own narcissism and >aggressive response is losing it's energy so probably I am getting a bit of >why Wilbur is "not interested in pursuing the differences in experience of >men and women in cyberspace". > >Anyway, you and I are a lot alike, imo. Or, I feel I'm like you in some >important, deep, ways. > >HooN Interesting that you should mention quicksand, Wilbur... Reading this thread I'd begun to think of psyber-l as a sandpit and us as participants building sandcastles (in the air?), sometimes collaboratively, sometimes by ourselves. In this sandpit there are areas of quicksand, and sometimes we stray accidentally into these areas, sometimes we're led (mischieveously?) into them. It's all play, right? But play can be deadly serious... HooN, seems to me that you did get sucked in by Wilbur's original post. Posts as areas of quicksand?? Maybe we don't know what's sand and what's quicksand until we see someone getting sucked in (or get sucked in ourselves)... I don't mean this as a value judgement. Perhaps all posts are about either sucking in or getting sucked in... There again, maybe they're about expelling... jeez, this is beginning to sound a bit primal ;) HooN, re your observation about alikeness: opposites attract and 'alikenesses' (ugh! clumsy word....) repel? Seems to me that Wilbur (unwittingly?) held up a dark mirror to you and you attacked him (indirectly) for doing that. Maybe that was what you said in your previous paragraph, I didn't altogether follow the psychspeak... Simon _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 11:00:01 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "arlene fay s." Subject: Re: obvious beast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What is a 'moo', anyway.????? arlene. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 11:18:42 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: obvious beast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:13 AM 4/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Still just me, intellectually agressive, and tired of being bashed because >>I'm an intellectually agressive male. >> > >Oh Wilbur I think you're tired of being bashed because you're insecure >about your intellect. My poor attempt, childish really, to 'bash' you is >because I'm insecure about my own intellect, much more than it is about >trying to match your intellect with reasonable arguement about what it has >expressed. No, I'm tired of defending my intellect because I am secure in it. When I wasn't secure I felt that I needed to defend my intellect, now I'm interested in proving my intellect to myself. The way that I see it, that will prove it to everyone else over time, as a incidential side effect.. >But, that's just my opinion and now I'm feeling the projection I've made >upon you wane and the complex which activates my own narcissism and >aggressive response is losing it's energy so probably I am getting a bit of >why Wilbur is "not interested in pursuing the differences in experience of >men and women in cyberspace". Yeah, I've discovered that after the initial push is usually an opportunity for some sort of reflection. >Anyway, you and I are a lot alike, imo. Or, I feel I'm like you in some >important, deep, ways. Ditto.. Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 11:58:36 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: obvious beast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:47 PM 4/26/97 +0100, you wrote: >>>Feel like you're in quicksand yet? >> >>Yup. Totally over my head in fact. Overwhelmed. glubglub > >Interesting that you should mention quicksand, Wilbur... Reading this >thread I'd begun to think of psyber-l as a sandpit and us as participants >building sandcastles (in the air?), sometimes collaboratively, sometimes by >ourselves. In this sandpit there are areas of quicksand, and sometimes we >stray accidentally into these areas, sometimes we're led (mischieveously?) >into them. It's all play, right? But play can be deadly serious... Yes, it can. That's one thing that needs to be paid attention to in these posts. The lack of human context provides opportunity to fail to respect others, and it's really easy to push buttons. The idea of quicksand or memes provides a lot of the conversation that occurs online. People, check out any flame war and you'll see a lot of quicksand. I'd like to think that I've figured out the media enough to twist things up into non-arguments, but sometimes the issues are too strong, and given the lack of immediate feedback, it's very often way to easy to say something that pushes someones buttons, and you end up with a large amount of what amounts to "personal opinion" rather than reasoned discussion. Of course, from a certain perspective, that's a very good thing. I like the amount of internal life that people share here. On the other hand, I have a limited amount of time to respond to all of it, and I'm hoping to not get overwhelmed by the inner life of others.. I'm having trouble sorting out my own internal voices, at least in terms of the goal oriented part of myself. Mostly because of the demands of day to day life. (I've been taking care of my daughter for the last two weeks while my wife has done two different trade shows with her company.) >HooN, seems to me that you did get sucked in by Wilbur's original post. >Posts as areas of quicksand?? Maybe we don't know what's sand and what's >quicksand until we see someone getting sucked in (or get sucked in >ourselves)... I don't mean this as a value judgement. Perhaps all posts are >about either sucking in or getting sucked in... There again, maybe they're >about expelling... jeez, this is beginning to sound a bit primal ;) But Hoon also is extremely accepting of himself and introspective.. so it's alright. >HooN, re your observation about alikeness: opposites attract and >'alikenesses' (ugh! clumsy word....) repel? Seems to me that Wilbur >(unwittingly?) held up a dark mirror to you and you attacked him >(indirectly) for doing that. Maybe that was what you said in your previous >paragraph, I didn't altogether follow the psychspeak... Yeah, we always dislike most in others the parts that we recognize in ourselves.. After all, how can we recognize what we don't own ourselves? Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 18:34:09 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Re: obvious beast In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970425225811.0a070ad2@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >What is a 'moo', anyway.????? > >arlene. Hi Arlene, A MOO is a text-based multi-user online virtual world built out of interconnected 'rooms'. MOO is an acronym for MUD Object Oriented, and MUD is an acronym for Multi User Dungeon. MUDs are online gaming/role-playing environments, with their roots in Dungeons and Dragons, while MOOs are typically socialising environments. Most MOOs are open to anyone to join, but there are also private MOOs, typically educational or professional MOOs (Diversity University is an example of the former, MediaMOO an example of the latter). Hope that's of some help. I though I'd best keep it short and basic, but if you want to know any more then email me offlist and I can give you a more detailed description. cheers, Simon _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:19:38 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: RE.How do I know if I am here or not??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All... I'm in the middle of moving for the next few days, and wet heavy snow here has created problems for my provider, but I'm enjoying the life I'm reading now in Psyber-L :) I'd love to respond to all of it, but time won't let me right now, so I'll just wing it. Walter, I appreciated your response to my thoughts, and JimC's, especially in reference to the facillitator vs. participant role. I've found that when I'm simply observing Listservs objectively my frame of reference is far different than being personally involved. Yet without the personal experience, I have less ability to understand what or how another might be perceiving what I've said or how it has effected another. (I think I am repeating what JimC said :) Without a personal frame of reference, the objective frame of reference will be full of holes, IMO. One of my own personal dreaded thoughts is to see hoards of *therapists* and researchers bringing all kinds of cognitive, rational emotive, ad nauseum theories and techniques and try to apply them to net relationships without personally experiencing any of these relationships themselves. It makes no sense to me and seems totally arrogant. My Wizard of Oz reference was a self expression, Walter... I mentally switched genders and saw myself as the plain old middle aged... ok, person :) who needs a little feedback occasionally to know whether I am here or not, 8 months or so after I started posting to Psyber-L, like I think Holly... so I can imagine what JimC, Kataryn and Eva are referring to. Observing an indirect discussion is not exactly the same as having some kind of acknowledgement, at least for most people I know. Also, Walter, I liked reading your observations about the minimal encouragers as related to gender... and I do sense your explorations of issues such as that, to understand personally another's... in this case female.. perspective. I remember a male psychiatrist once, sitting in his chair (higher than mine of course) with a pipe in his mouth in an oh so even voice saying to me *You seem to need to feel validated.* A good textbook response from him that made me want to pull the hairs on his arms to prove how valid I was :) What the heck, I AM valid. We all are. Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:20:42 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: obvious beast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did anyone determine what the obvious beast was? _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 20:01:27 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: Bonvoyage, moo's, desert islands. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wish I had time to write, I dont, mostly because I am writing a farewell letter to my daughter in case anything happens to me. I think I am a fatalist. On that note, if you don't hear from me again, its because this intrepid explorer met a sticky end. Otherwise I'll be back. I was thinking of sending you an epitaph, but theres little point in case I make it back in one piece, and The IRA dont blow up the airport, the plane doesnt crash, I am not mugged, raped, shot, knifed etc or end up a vegetable in a coma in some hospital in the states. Btw in the later case could somebody inform my ex, that if it looks like I am still dreaming not to pull the plug for a couple of months, since it might be a dream involving Brad Pitt or the guy in the Bacardi adverts. (I have mentally covered all these possiblilites.) I would not be the greatest companion on a desert island, since I would be bossing you about and treating you somewhat in the capacity of a Man Friday, expecting you to whip up cocktails from the rum you have fermented from sugarcane, and serving them to me in half a coconut. I would also moan about the weather whilest wondering when I was about to be attacked by the canibal tribe on the other side of the island. And I think a moo is the opposite of a mud. Will try and email from assorted cybercafes etc as I journey around. Love See you in 2 weeks Dolores. I really hope I don't die. I think I am going to have to see a shrink about this, if I get back. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:54:17 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: "Feeling Of Intrusion" ~~Hub Hypothesis In-Reply-To: <199704261159.GAA11291@dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kataryn=20 > Still feel the cross currents running~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >=20 > Yes, I did do the posting "Is there Life without Walter" >=20 > Sheryl certainly was "right on" asking that Walter tell us all more > about "Who's Walter". As i got the email this am, there was the post (among many) by JimC reflecting on the participant / facilitator dichotomy. I am responding to Kataryn here, but "indirectly" to JimC. I often do that, but not explicitly, I think others do too. I find JimC's post (generally) easy to respond to, but am choosing this one today. What does that? Why is that ~~ gender or the quicksand quality of the posts? (not questions just reflections!) I have now responded indirectly to about 4 posts. I think gender does have a lot to do with it. I am reading a book by Maria C "In Other Words", she makes it really clear how words have two meanings, one if spoken by a man, and another if by a woman. She cites the example: There is a table in the room. Imagine the room and table if spoken by a man and then a woman. I think she is right. All quite unconscious, though I am watching for it now. =20 > Certainly was appreciated hearing your response,=20 Good to hear, interesting because I think I was participant and facilitator in the one breath. I think I have one foot in and one foot out of the list. I think facilitation here is different from rl groups, this medium demands more self disclosure. It can do with less direct leadership perhaps than a rl gp? I guess it also depends on the purpose of the group, I am thinking of experiential training groups akin to this list. =20 > as I too, had many of > those same thoughts, but could certainly not have expressed then as > well as Sheryl. Sheryl's post got me writing well on the theme, but I think the thread has been well opened up by your posts, and others, which may not have had the direct response, they have had their impact. JimC's too with his direct observations about the "hub". =20 > I do have one question Walter. Are you posting all of the responses > to this list in total? =20 Not at all! How could I, or anyone of us? I have a sense having a million responses, and picking one. I also have a sense of choosing those responses that have both the participant and facilitative aspect. What I respond to is often just following my own warm-up, my involvement in the unfolding here, totally unconscious. Perhaps too much a participant. My sense in that regard is a bit off beam at times, I am discovering, learning. =46or example I am learning here to stay with a theme more fully. To stick to the topic I was writing to Sheryl about yesterday, even if the post has a different subject header, there is a continuity here.=20 What is the theme? The sense of "not being here" that some people feel, not only new ones, and mostly women. And how that does or does not relate to the style of facilitation. The hub question. The hub is of course not only me, but the "players". =20 The players are only players as perceived by the non players. I am sure it does not feel like that on the inside of the hub. Yet, is there something we could do differently? Should we and whose job is it. Eva, as far as I can see has left the list. Something for us to consider. =20 ~~~ Just had a realisation about your "Walter Try letting go ~ transformation post" Looking back at it I should have. I kept and keep meaning to! However I have responded indirectly many times, and so have others. The realisation just now, was about one small previously unconscious aspect of that: That it invited me in the title, to go into my own very personal "hanging on" (or so it felt). Anita posted the "Archetypal Projections" to which I responded, and which had a similar theme, exactly the same theme as your post in my reply, but made it less personal, and more integrated into the overall unfolding work on the list (or so I unconsciously thought) , this was all lovely and vague at the time, as the *present moment* usually is including this one! At that point the theme became clear: there is a Herculean task here, cleaning out the shit in the stables, and I work hard at it and I will not let go! However, I am not a lone hero, I think the work here is done by us all, mostly people here clean out their own bucket, and when we can't clear out our own bucket, others do come to assist. Yuck, what a metaphor. In a sense this all became clear, on the list too, and thus your post played its part, but was not responded to directly. =20 > I find > you responding to comments I have not previously seen posted......... > or does it just seem that way? I think it must be how it seems, I only quote from what is on the list, is that what you mean? ~~~ About to sign off, landscaping calling . . . > By the way,Walter~~~~~ you have twice mentioned your hope of doing > "group counseling" with this media and making it into a paying enity. I will respond to this, I am very interested in what you say here, which is a different theme, perhaps in a post called: Online Groups. =20 Walter =20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 20:12:26 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dolores Subject: Re: obvious beast Wilbs, Steve, Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re the intellectual oneupmanship, er sorry I mean discussion. Love it! Having fun yet? I am. Shame I got to go -almost. I particularly liked the glugglug. Love Dolores _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 07:40:57 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: "Feeling Of Intrusion" ~~Hub Hypothesis Comments: To: Kataryn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kataryn wrote: > To: Walter, Jim, ~~~All List Members~~ > > Very interesting observations Jim. You have indeed been making a very > noble effort on the part of "newcomers" to this list, to definately > attempt to get the attention of those you have welled named, the > "players". Thanks Kataryn, but I do have to make a clarification, I wouldn't see my effort a "noble" since it has come out of self-interest. If its of help to other newcomers then that's a welcome byproduct. > > > By the way,Walter~~~~~ you have twice mentioned your hope of doing > "group counseling" with this media and making it into a paying enity. > I have been doing individual "executive crisis counseling" on line for > over a year now, which is really a blend of the corporate world > structures and related stressors, with all of the personal reactives > within this world. It has been most successful, to the point where I > must now limit the number of clients that I am able to provide quality > time. I can, however, certainly preceive that in the very near future, > I will be moving this into a group modality format. I preceive of the > potential success, by already knowing the clients initially and > recognizing the potential compatability of similar minds and > interests. > This is interesting to me. I'd of been prepared to argue that the lack of rl referents (eg. tone of voice and body language), would make this effort unproductive. However, this attitude of mine is based on limited experience. Certainly I'd be very pleased to be wrong since it would make my own role as a team leader much easier if this depth of communication is possible online. This also sounds like an approach that could be incorporated into an EAP (Employee Assistance Program). Are you able to share more re. your approach Kataryn? ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 07:55:06 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: "Feeling Of Intrusion" ~~Hub Hypothesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Logeman wrote: > ... I think facilitation here is different > from rl groups, this medium demands more self disclosure. It can > do with less direct leadership perhaps than a rl gp? I guess it > also depends on the purpose of the group, I am thinking of > experiential training groups akin to this list. > I'd like to understand more around this difference. Unfortunately, rl calls (in the form of a just wakened 3 yr old who wants his breakfast NOW!) so I can't respond til ??? ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:17:49 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: "Feeling Of Intrusion" ~~Hub Hypothesis In-Reply-To: <33633B49.5946@easynet.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JimC, > This is interesting to me. I'd of been prepared to argue that the lack > of rl referents (eg. tone of voice and body language), would make this > effort unproductive. However, this attitude of mine is based on = limited > experience. Certainly I'd be very pleased to be wrong since it would > make my own role as a team leader much easier if this depth of > communication is possible online. I think it is, obviously or I'd not be here. It is true that there are the limitations, but there are also the advantages, the extensions, that are *not* there in the f2f meetings. Asynchronicity We choose our time here, we can reflect. We dis not=20 have to schedule this meeting!=20 We are close in cyberspace Nor did we fly to meet here. This collapse of time=20 and place creates a new possibility for intimacy. Mutability of text I can delete, edit what i say, copy it, paste it.=20 Present more thoughtfully if i choose. Permanence Our words are archived and searchable. Clarity of the written language Consider the power of poetry, novels, the written word. =20 They can be full of action. Body language is often easier to see described in text than in rl. =20 Timing In a list such as this timing and silence, have a language of their own, akin to body language, one not available in rl. Long pauses or response at the speed=20 of light. Power of words Word play, etymology, puns, alliteration, onomatopoeia, rhyme and rhythm in the visual layout of words [please use a fixed pitch font such as Courier New] all add a dimension invisible to the f2f meeting. The choice of audience I can hit send to all or send to one. The equalising power of the post I know i have been arguing the opposite here lately,=20 that the gender differences *do* make a difference here, but all sorts of differences such as gender, age, dis/ability have less impact here. Imagination The absence of visual cues allows for the activation=20 of the imagination. Also for projection of our own thoughts and feelings onto others. This creates problems, but also means that we are revealed through=20 our projections, to our selves and others.=20 All in all while f2f with someone we cant read their email! For a while here a house mate Ruby was in the list, and we used to chat f2f, and then go and post our emails, both had a place. > This also sounds like an approach that could be incorporated into an = EAP > (Employee Assistance Program). Are you able to share more re. your > approach Kataryn? I am all ears too. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:51:11 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Re: obvious beast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl, At 16:20 1997-04-26 -0600, you wrote: >Did anyone determine what the obvious beast was? The obvious beast begins to growl in a man's inmost heart, when he hears the word "feminist". After that he goes blind. He cannot see a woman. He sees the beast, himself. For that reason almost all women say: " I'm not a feminist, but..." Cheers :-) Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:41:22 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Re: obvious beast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl, Anita .... Yes. Whenever someone asks whether I am a feminist, I ask "What do you mean by the word "feminist"? Or, if I am too tired for a lengthy conversation, I simply correct the inquiry and say "I am a *humanist*! HBG >Sheryl, > >At 16:20 1997-04-26 -0600, you wrote: >>Did anyone determine what the obvious beast was? > > >The obvious beast begins to growl in a man's inmost heart, when he hears the >word "feminist". After that he goes blind. He cannot see a woman. He sees >the beast, himself. For that reason almost all women say: " I'm not a >feminist, but..." > >Cheers :-) > >Anita > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:02:54 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Re: How do I know if I am here or not??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's taken me a bit of time to reply, time in which I have enjoyed reading and thinking. Given the hoopla over gender, Walter, I rest my case .... although I honestly never meant to reopen the *same* issue. Wilber, HooN, Delores, I had to agree with bits and pieces of all of your posts. Wilbur, of course you're right ... we all have the post/send button, no one is stopping ... but the logic begs the larger question: why does it happen despite the apparent technological equity, not just here, but anywhere? This, to me, is a genuine "PSYBER-L" topic. (Oh...For the record, the emphasis I wished to place in my message was gender is *not* the (or I should say the *only*) factor which contributed to silence. I think JCalder's and Kataryn's "feelings of intrusion" thread feeds into the same discussion. >This is your contribution is it not, to the discussion about >hats? HGB Holly, two aspects, both real? Dare I say it, there >is some "indirect anger" in going back to HBG, it is not safe for >Holly? Your comment puzzles me --- and I have spent some time thinking why. First, I should say I am not angry at the list, or you, or the opinions posted. I admit to being a bit...bemused at times, less confused when someone finally explained how intricate the relationships on the list had been before PWP. As for the name question... well, the truth is, it is a bit backwards from what you are assuming. When I signed on as HBG, that was the name that came naturally, not because I was hiding from gender, but because this is the way I had referred to myself on-line. The only reason my email address is different (hollyg) is that HBG was already spoken for on my network provider. But in thinking about what this means, I can say this: I have not had the desire many describe of wanting to come on-line as someone beside myself. Rather, the opposite is true .... I would characterize my on-screen listserv posts and correspondence as more "me" than, say, what I might say if you ran into me in the grocery store and I sputtered on about the weather. "HB" was a nickname my father gave me when I was young and perhaps symbolizes the uncluttered world of "just the facts as I see them" ...not the wife, or mom or brother's sister or my mother's daughter ... but what's left when the labels are gone. So, while it would appear as if I were hiding behind HBG, the opposite is true. "Holly" negotiates between truth and social conventions all day long. I don't hate that ... I wouldn't give up the many parts of my life, some of which are more gender-defined than I care to admit ... but when I speak, when it comes from the core, it's coming from HBG. >>(Pretty soon there will be the new discipline --- listserve therapists! > >So if there is more how is that best "facilitated". Learning to >be such a "list therapist" is *exactly* on topic for the list.... What would a >list therapist do? Actually, I saw "list therapist" as an outsider to the list owner/facilitator and group. I always imagine group activities as systems, and cannot imagine that the facilitator can "jump out of the skin" of the system and analyze the ebb and flow from a distance. Walter, I tend to agree with Sheryl about your role in the list. I do not consider you a representative of occupying forces! Rather, I felt you may have overlooked the significance of the womens' comments and let the matter drop when the discussion did not yield to ... anything useful. Hmmm. HBG P.S. I find the growing conversation re "HUB" very interesting. I am a bit slow these days, so I'll have to post another night. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:21:52 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: players Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" While searching back through the list for something else, I came across the following and thought it might be useful to reintroduce/restate at this point. This is Walter responding to Robert (from a post titled 'Re: ideology', 11th Feb 97, for anyone who wants to chase up context): >> Perhaps the list needs to be *directed* and *managed* so that we can >> return to the original vision, so that this place can feel more like >> home. > >I think this is crisp expression of the dialectical concern here: >can order and meaning come naturally, organically, via the >fractals of the group life, synchronistically . . . OR should it >be imposed, directed, structured. This them runs through our >discussion. It sometimes takes a gender form, sometimes a head >heart one. 'Players' as a metaphor puts me in mind of the corporate paradigm with its inbuilt notions of hierarchy, territory, competition, setting clear goals/task orientation, climbing to the top, survival of the fittest/social darwinism... I guess the next step is figuring out the team players. I find all the metaphors for the list and list interaction that crop up here fascinating. Can they all co-exist as different but equally valid ways of shedding light on list process and nature, or will one prove to have the best genes (be the best meme)... JimC, Adopting the 'player' perspective, I'd say that, appropriately enough, you became a player with your 'No Room at the Inn' post. Talking of which (and on the other hand)... maybe it would be more accurate to say that everyone who posts to the list is a player but there are lead players (stars), supporting players and bit-part players (I have no illusions about which category I'm in)... while it's the lurkers who are the audience, of course. Just a thought. All these different ways of seeing are giving me a headache! Simon _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:27:16 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Collector of frogs from the swamplands of the soul. Subject: Feeling of Intrusion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kataryn I am writing this evening not knowing when this can be sent as my mailserver is not allowing me the sending of messages at the time of writing. I receive notification that there is no e-mail to be downloaded as well as messages telling me that sending mail is impossible at this time because the server is down. Still, I feel the urge to try. > I must express the feeling, of perhaps, more mystification. Mystery ... PSYBER-L does have that. The identities of those who toss out words through their keyboards is left a mystery. Perhaps we do gain a little insight into the "true" natures of these beings regardless of the fact that much is left unsaid. This place is like a cautious dance, a masked ball. > After a three month period, it is difficult to still feel like a > "newcomer", {rare on most lists}, however, within this world, it > certainly "Just Is". Newcomer is a term that I don't find suitable, it has connotations of heirarchy which I don't think is valid. I may speak a lot at times, but that doesn't place me in a state of privilege ... more often than not it places me into a state of conflict ... we all listen with our own filters, triggers and understandings. The movement here is from lurker to reflective listener to perhaps a state of musing out loud. Finding the impulse to speak comes from within and cannot be the responsibility of a list owner or any "other". No one can empower another, especially here in cyberspace (unless we allow that a listowner can remove someone from the list). We can only empower our "self". > Sheryl certainly was "right on" asking that Walter tell us all more > about "Who's Walter". For that matter, "who" is anyone? Do we need to create self-portraits here so that we can build in "context" for the words which appear on our screens? Or should we allow a person's words speak for themselves? How does that work when people join in with many of the spoken words now archived, words that most likely will not be read (we have said much over the time spent together here on PSYBER-L)? Who's Kataryn? > I have been doing individual "executive crisis counseling" on line for > over a year now, which is really a blend of the corporate world > structures and related stressors, with all of the personal reactives > within this world. It has been most successful, to the point where I > must now limit the number of clients that I am able to provide quality > time. This sounds interesting. I am planning on offering counselling services via Internet here in west-central Canada as a means of overcoming the limitations of geographic distance. But before I do so, I have some learning, especially with regards to the nature of CMC dilaogue, the power of words which are disembodied yet potentially eternal. Perhaps this is a thread to follow here on PSYBER-L. > If I were to guess, IMHO, I would tend to believe that individuals that > joined the list are really here to be able to start expressing their > inner feelings, more so, than to exchange philosophical views of Jung. Actually, it was the mention of Jung and Moreno that caught my attention. After reading the PSYBERNET homepage, I "knew" that this is a place I wanted to spend a lot of time. > PS: Robert..Forget Grandpa Bob ...Sierge is who you are..so just be! Thanks, Kataryn. I feel the same way. Sieur is back (he never left, he just stood in the shadow of the stage awaiting the opportunity to re-enter. Robert de Cyberie (who stands head bowed in hopes that his presence is indeed welcome) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 23:41:11 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Tamara Streett Subject: Gender issues.. Ok, now it's time to jump into the water instead of dipping in my toe and determining that it was "still too cold, I'll wait for it to heat up". As a form of introduction, I'm Tamara, Wilbur's wife. I'm a regular onliner, mostly on AOL, I troll the digital video areas, stocks and Moms Online. I try not to get into listservs, but this one sounded so nice, I wanted to join in on the "fun". I've enjoyed all the discussions and posturing I've seen on this list for the past month I've been priviledged to read it. Wilbur's spoken often and with much emotion about this list, but most of the time it was in reaction to someone else's post or stance. I know, I live with him and could figure out where his actions were in the lastest "flame". Gender issues are a huge part of being online - I've got a few handles (identities) that are more male than female, and whose gender in the member profile is male. Having that freedom to "become" male if I choose to, is somewhat empowering to be able to pick the gender I want to be for the conversation, be able to play both sides of an issue. I think Wilbur does have a clear sense of his gender "opinions", and for that, I love him very much. I don't always agree with him, but I don't have to. thanks, T _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 04:12:08 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kataryn Subject: Re: ~~Hub Hypothesis~~ Phoenix Rising ? ~~~ Walter Writes~~~~~~~~~ >As i got the email this am, there was the post (among many) by >JimC reflecting on the participant / facilitator dichotomy. I am >responding to Kataryn here, but "indirectly" to JimC. I often do >that, but not explicitly, I think others do too. I find JimC's >post (generally) easy to respond to, but am choosing this one >today. What does that? Why is that ~~ gender or the quicksand >quality of the posts? (not questions just reflections!) I have >now responded indirectly to about 4 posts. I think gender does >have a lot to do with it. I am reading a book by Maria C "In >Other Words", she makes it really clear how words have two >meanings, one if spoken by a man, and another if by a woman. She >cites the example: There is a table in the room. Imagine the >room and table if spoken by a man and then a woman. I think she >is right. All quite unconscious, though I am watching for it >now. =20 Kataryn Responding ~~~~~~~~~Gender.........I shall never be concerned with "gender" issues. Just love being a woman......and just love men being men! And isn't that what makes this world keep spinning? We both may speak a different language Walter~~~~~ but perhaps that is the fascination of our also wanting to all be togeather. The exchange can be most stimulating...learning to love the diversity, even more so. > >>Kataryn: Certainly was appreciated hearing your response,=20 > Walter: Good to hear, interesting because I think I was participant and >facilitator in the one breath. I think I have one foot in and >one foot out of the list. I think facilitation here is different >from rl groups, this medium demands more self disclosure. It can >do with less direct leadership perhaps than a rl gp? I guess it >also depends on the purpose of the group, I am thinking of >experiential training groups akin to this list. =20 > Kataryn Responding: ~~~~~ I do agree...facilitation here is certainly an entirely different concept. In real life, of course, there is the instant interchange....the dominance or reserve of individual member participants...the reactive visual and verbal vibrations. However, Walter, your PSYBER-L facilitation still remains somewhat of a puzzlement to me. JimC's "Hub Hypothesis", finally started to stimulate the grey matter, into realization of your methodology. [For lack of a better word]. And perhaps that is why there may not be a "Life Without Walter". I find it rather interesting conceptually and shall reserve further comments until my hypothesis becomes more clarified. Please clarify further your comment as to "experimental training groups". {Training for what functional role?} For indeed, the purpose of the group may well have to have more definition or perhaps group awareness as to what journey we all all to imbark upon. I long to discover the purpose here, which seems to have its own varience, and perhaps that very challange, has keep me here, just reading, assessing and still wondering~~~~~~~~~~ My prior expressions of "moving on", are certainly a reflection of "the wondering". >>Kataryn: I do have one question Walter. Are you posting all of the responses >> to this list in total? =20 > >Walter: Not at all! How could I, or anyone of us? I have a sense having >a million responses, and picking one. I also have a sense of >choosing those responses that have both the participant and >facilitative aspect. What I respond to is often just following my >own warm-up, my involvement in the unfolding here, totally >unconscious. Perhaps too much a participant. My sense in that >regard is a bit off beam at times, I am discovering, learning. ~~~~~~Kataryn reponding: I ask this question primarily because I have yet to see my four prior posting, arrive in my own E-Mail. Perhaps this is a quirk in your mailing system. I just had to ask if all the posting that were sent to you, by all the member, were actually posted to the list, when specified for the list. Further, are all of the responses from list members to prior member postings, all posted? Or do you do this on a selective basis? If selective, then the hub concept is certainly a reality. If not selective, is there any editing first or are all posting as received? {Just working on my hypothesis, and obviously looking at the control factor, I shall confess.} >Walter: What is the theme? The sense of "not being here" that some >people feel, not only new ones, and mostly women. And how that >does or does not relate to the style of facilitation. The hub >question. The hub is of course not only me, but the "players". =20 > >The players are only players as perceived by the non players. I >am sure it does not feel like that on the inside of the hub. >Yet, is there something we could do differently? Should we and >whose job is it. Eva, as far as I can see has left the list. >Something for us to consider. =20 > ~~~~~~~~~Kataryn responding: Interesting Walter, that you would say this is mostly felt by women.....just interesting {Since I am not into gender discussion} You would know! Perhaps I have understood the comments of others, sensing "not being here", as I have observed most posting of new members sort of still hanging out there alone and ignored. But then, the Dream Event needed its closure. There is a time to speak...there is a time to propose new concepts.....there is a time to ponder...there is a time for the Phoenix to rise out of the ashes and live another 500 years. >Walter: Just had a realisation about your "Walter Try letting go ~ >transformation post" Looking back at it I should have. I kept >and keep meaning to! However I have responded indirectly many >times, and so have others. The realisation just now, was about >one small previously unconscious aspect of that: That it invited >me in the title, to go into my own very personal "hanging on" (or >so it felt). Anita posted the "Archetypal Projections" to which >I responded, and which had a similar theme, exactly the same >theme as your post in my reply, but made it less personal, and >more integrated into the overall unfolding work on the list (or >so I unconsciously thought) , this was all lovely and vague at >the time, as the *present moment* usually is including this one! > ~~~~~Kataryn responding: Walter~~~~Yes, I think you now understand......let the Phoenix Rise! Let me quote Guatama Buddha. "This existence of ours is as transient as autumn clouds. To watch the birth and death of feelings, is like looking at the movements of a dance." {We watched the dance, and hoped that all would heal and forgive} >>Kataryn: By the way,Walter~~~~~ you have twice mentioned your hope of doing >> "group counseling" with this media and making it into a paying enity. > >Walter responding: I will respond to this, I am very interested in what you say >here, which is a different theme, perhaps in a post called: >Online Groups. ~~~~~~Kataryn: Would be interesting exploration. Or would this lead to assessing who we are as a group,[objectively] rather than what we are feeling, as an individual [subjectively]? Just a thought tossed out to all the members of this list. We all have much to share and to learn from each other, for here in Psybernet, our diversity can be our most common denominator. I happen to love diversity for itself, for how else can I truly gain new insight. Sincerely, Kataryn _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:27:53 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Gender issues.. In-Reply-To: <970428234051_-1031688754@emout10.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tamara, Good to see you here. I just wanted to say that, though i am wanting to get to other posts, and stay somewhat focussed. I have not writen for a day or more, and it is that I am working very hard, and seem to have a touch of flu, or something driving me to bed very early. Argg, I need the night shift! > Ok, now it's time to jump into the water instead of dipping in my toe = and > determining that it was "still too cold, I'll wait for it to heat up".=20 You enjoy the flames?=20 > I've enjoyed all the discussions and posturing I've seen on this list = for the > past month I've been priviledged to read it. =20 Posturing? > Wilbur's spoken often and with > much emotion about this list, but most of the time it was in reaction = to > someone else's post or stance. =20 My partner Kate also knows quite a bit about the list, not so much the list, as me -- i talk to her about it and mostly acknowledge her input, but sometimes it just filters in thru my posts. She does not seem to have an interest in reading it or writing in it however. Just as well, i think, life is complex enough and here too, with the participant / facilitator question. > Gender issues are a huge part of being online - I've got a few handles > (identities) that are more male than female, and whose gender in the = member > profile is male. =20 Any on this list? Would we ever really know about anyone here? =20 Look forward to your participation. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:17:14 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: = See your own posts = [Was Re: ~~Hub Hypothesis~~ Phoenix Rising ? ~~~] In-Reply-To: <199704290912.EAA16318@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kataryn, I need to be brief, but feel it important to clarify a couple of basic things, and will respond more later. I have changed the title from Re: ~~Hub Hypothesis~~ Phoenix Rising ? ~~~ to =3D See your own posts =3D as I will respond to these structural questions, and come back later to all of the other interesting topics. (perhaps my slowing down will help distribute the flow away from the hub! That might be worth watching as I feel myself not feeling too well & needing rest)=20 > I have > yet to see my four prior posting, arrive in my own E-Mail. Perhaps > this is a quirk in your mailing system. =20 You need to issue a command to the listserver (address on the bottom of each email here.) SET Psyber-L REPRO=20 You will then get your own posts. ~~~ > I just had to ask if all the > posting that were sent to you, by all the member, were actually posted > to the list, when specified for the list. Further, are all of the > responses from list members to prior member postings, all posted? Or > do you do this on a selective basis? If selective, then the hub > concept is certainly a reality. If not selective, is there any editing > first or are all posting as received? Everything goes straight to the list, in that sense the list is totally "un moderated". No editing takes place, all posts come exactly as posted. Also anyone can join or leave the list, without my assistance. =20 There are some "power" differences between me and other members however, I set up the list and have the access to its software setup files. It's worth noting, though it makes no difference on a day to day basis. =20 Note too that anyone can see who is on the list, by issuing another command: Review Psyber-l =20 While I am at it there are other usful commands, they can all be sent in the one email: INDEX Psyber-L HELP Psyber-L GET WELCOME.PSYBER-L ~~~ Look at the Archives on the WEB, Kataryn, and you will also find your posts, you will be able to use the search functions there, they are very useful! The whole archive or sub sections of it, can be explored using any word.=20 The archives can be viewed at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 06:34:05 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: "Feeling Of Intrusion" ~~Hub Hypothesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Logeman wrote: JimC wrote: > > ... Certainly I'd be very pleased to be wrong since it would > > make my own role as a team leader much easier if this depth of > > communication is possible online. > > Walter Responded: I think it is, obviously or I'd not be here. It is true that > there are the limitations, but there are also the advantages, the > extensions, that are *not* there in the f2f meetings. > > Asynchronicity > We choose our time here, we can reflect. We dis not > have to schedule this meeting! > > We are close in cyberspace > Nor did we fly to meet here. This collapse of time > and place creates a new possibility for intimacy. > > Mutability of text > I can delete, edit what i say, copy it, paste it. > Present more thoughtfully if i choose. > > Permanence > Our words are archived and searchable. > > Clarity of the written language > Consider the power of poetry, novels, the written word. > They can be full of action. Body language is often > easier to see described in text than in rl. > > Timing > In a list such as this timing and silence, have a > language of their own, akin to body language, one not > available in rl. Long pauses or response at the speed > of light. > > Power of words > Word play, etymology, puns, alliteration, onomatopoeia, > rhyme and rhythm in the visual layout of words [please > use a fixed pitch font such as Courier New] all add a > dimension invisible to the f2f meeting. > > The choice of audience > I can hit send to all or send to one. > > The equalising power of the post > I know i have been arguing the opposite here lately, > that the gender differences *do* make a difference here, > but all sorts of differences such as gender, age, > dis/ability have less impact here. I'm with you all the way to here. > > Imagination > The absence of visual cues allows for the activation > of the imagination. Also for projection of our own > thoughts and feelings onto others. This creates > problems, but also means that we are revealed through > our projections, to our selves and others. > This is looking at the bright side of imagination - their is an inherent danger here too. In a text only environment I am more inclined to respond to you on the basis of who I think you are (my projection of you) because there are relatively few cues to disconfirm my projection. When my projection is out of line with who you see yourself to be, you would tend to feel unheard and even rejected, and would then respond accordingly. We move into an escalating cycle of action and reaction (eg. Wilbur and Hoon as they appeared in the recent hit play "Obvious Beast"). Of course they were able to resolve their argument with each other, but I think only because they each brought a willingness to engage authentically. It seems to me that this is the key ingredient to productive online therapy (indeed any relationship). In a text only environment it is relatively easy to appear as someone your not, to posture, to flame. In the team environment where I work, the team is geographically dispersed and we get together as a group only 2-3 times/year. Although we are connected by phone, fax, email and image system - trust is slow to develop especially across the functional boundaries (its a cross-functional team). In the absence of that trust, I see a lot of energy wasted in processes like "Did she write what she really meant, cause if she did I'm mad and she's stupid but maybe she didn't and I should write back nice ..." Lately I've been encouraging people to pick up the phone rather than staying in email because conflicts just don't seem to get resolved without at least voice contact. > All in all while f2f with someone we cant read their email! For > a while here a house mate Ruby was in the list, and we used to > chat f2f, and then go and post our emails, both had a place. > I'd like to hear more about this since it sounds analagous to the team environment I'm in. Just like you and Ruby, we all know each other and make choices re. which medium to communicate in - can you share what sorts of things went f2f vs. email? ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 06:43:05 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: JFCalder Subject: Re: ~~Hub Hypothesis~~ Phoenix Rising ? ~~~ Comments: cc: Psyber Machine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kataryn wrote: > ~~~~~~Kataryn reponding: I ask this question primarily because I have > yet to see my four prior posting, arrive in my own E-Mail. When I joined I had the same problem, the solution was to change my settings on the listserve by sending an email to: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM with the message, SET PSYBER-L REP in the body of the message, this causes the server to start sending you copies of your own postings. ...Jim _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:08:12 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Don Corriveau Subject: "Beta Testers Needed" Comments: To: Clinical-Psychologists@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, PSYCHOEDUCATIONAL_ASSESS@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU, CLINICAL-PSYCHOLOGISTS@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, psy-media@listp.apa.org, psycho-pharm@PsyCom.Net, psychoanalytic-studies@sheffield.ac.uk, PSYCHNEWS@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, PSYBUS@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, ASSESS-P@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, NETPSY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, PSYCH-CI@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, COMMUNITY-PSYCHOLOGY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ANNOUNCEMENT: Here's an opportunity to earn free Continuing Education (CE) credits. WebEd's policy in developing new courses is consistent with APA's recommendation to have 5 psychologists "field test" each of our courses. In part, information supplied by field testers is needed to establish the number of CE offered for each course. Currently, Jeri Fink is developing an exciting new course entitled, "Psychotechnology: Human behavior in the electronic environment." For those of us who share any element of internet-addiction, this course should prove an interesting study of our own behavior! A course description can be found at: http://ceus.com/courses/psy835.htm If you are interested in being a "Beta Tester" for this new course, please Email me. Please note that we cannot determine the number of CE credits that you would earn until feedback from all Beta Testers completing the course is received. If you are interested, please respond quickly since we are offering this free CE opportunity to only 5 Beta Testers. Donald P. Corriveau, Ph.D. Provost, WebEd dr-c@ceus.com --- http://ceus.com _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:14:06 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: ~~Hub Hypothesis~~ Phoenix Rising ? ~~~ In-Reply-To: <199704290912.EAA16318@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kataryn,all,=20 I should have just left that question re seeing your posts . . . JimC offered all that was needed. Still it was an easy one to do while i was tired. It emphasised the hub issue just as we were speaking of it. =20 I will respond to one other point that I have been thinking about, in response to the hub hypothesis. > However, Walter, your PSYBER-L facilitation still remains somewhat of a > puzzlement to me. JimC's "Hub Hypothesis", finally started to stimulate > the grey matter, into realization of your methodology. [For lack of a > better word]. And perhaps that is why there may not be a "Life Without > Walter". I find it rather interesting conceptually and shall reserve > further comments until my hypothesis becomes more clarified. This list *is* facilitated, using this "methodology of mine, which has its roots in my training as a psychodramatist, but has evolved into this participant/facilitator style here in *this* list, it would not work in many other cases, (and perhaps not here). There would be life without Walter . . . but not as we know it! If we had a non-facilitated list, or one facilitated by someone else, it would have a different life. In my opinion, the unconscious of the listowner always has an impact on a discussion list such as this, here it is overt, and *used* as best we can. > Please clarify further your comment as to "experimental training > groups". {Training for what functional role?} =20 The word I actually used was *experiential* i.e. learning by doing and being. And yes that is also experimental. Again I am bringing to the online gathering something of the training experience I had in psychodrama. Theory followed and was built into the work. However there was "supervised" directing by trainees. In a way I think I have been the trainee in this list. Training for what functional role? I will distill that from the List Description, (which I will also post for ease of access) which I immediately see could do with clarification: =20 =3D=3D Psybernet Mailing List =3D=3D | The list is a starting point for depth psychological=20 | work on the net, exploring and defining its=20 | directions.=20 | The art of leadership in communication networks. =20 | Creating communication environments.=20 | Special focus on how . . . psychological phenomena=20 | relate to cyberspace.=20 In summary: How to be a cyberspace "depth" psychological professional. Learning how to do that with out simply translating (as I began to do initially) f2f methods to the net. Also how to do that after having been *immersed* in the work, so that we know this from the inside. =20 I think we are doing that. =20 It has always been my aim that this list spawns other groups. However that as we know is easier said than done. We seem (I do anyway) to value this list, and departing it for intense other projects, leaves it bereft. It may be ok, though how to do that better is on my mind. How this can be done so that we can do it professionally and be paid for our work, is also on the agenda here, awaiting attention -- it will get mine -- when I can get to it. > For indeed, the purpose > of the group may well have to have more definition or perhaps group > awareness as to what journey we all all to imbark upon. > I long to discover the purpose here, which seems to have its own > varience, and perhaps that very challange, has keep me here, just > reading, assessing and still wondering~~~~~~~~~~ My prior expressions > of "moving on", are certainly a reflection of "the wondering". I think the lack of definition, has its origin in the notion that the PsyberGroups would be more specific, as indeed the DreamEvent and the AION reading group were. =20 I had lunch with a friend who was recently in the US at a Body and Soul conf. With Jean Houston & Terence McKenna . . . it was great to hear her awareness of this medium as a psychological and spiritual vehicle after listening to those teachers, even though she had little experience of this medium. Made me think that we know some of what was being taught there, we know it *experientially*. =20 ~~~ > >>Kataryn: By the way,Walter~~~~~ you have twice mentioned your hope of > doing > >> "group counseling" with this media and making it into a paying > enity. > > > >Walter responding: I will respond to this, I am very interested in > what you say > >here, which is a different theme, perhaps in a post called: > >Online Groups. > ~~~~~~Kataryn: Would be interesting exploration. Or would this lead to > assessing who we are as a group,[objectively] rather than what we are > feeling, as an individual [subjectively]? Just a thought tossed out to > all the members of this list. We all have much to share and to learn > from each other, for here in Psybernet, our diversity can be our most > common denominator. I happen to love diversity for itself, for how > else can I truly gain new insight. I think the art of experiential learning is to make the learning *one*, to tie the objective in closely with the subjective. When it comes to depth psychology (an aside to JimC) the subjective experience *is* the objective . . . what we experience here . . . a hub for example, and the nature and the value (or hindrance of it) is known through our experience, we are learning about a phenomena and in it at the same time. Badly put. I'll find a quote from Jung, or someone might be able to, he says this over and over. =20 So that got something about *experiential* learning in Psybernet off my chest. =20 To bed! Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:13:57 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == Psybernet Mailing List Description == MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is the same one as Posted one month ago, here for convenience. =3D=3D Psybernet Mailing List =3D=3D Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become=20 conscious of the effects of computer mediated=20 communication on group life and the psyche. =20 The list is a starting point for depth psychological=20 work on the net, exploring and defining its=20 directions.=20 Topics include:=20 The art of leadership in communication networks. =20 Creating communication environments. Gender issues. =20 Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths,=20 personal identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious. =20 Special focus on how these psychological phenomena=20 relate to cyberspace.=20 Through our discussion here we learn directly from our=20 experience of the medium. We voice that learning. =20 =46orming relationships of a collegial nature around our=20 psychological net interests is an important part of the=20 work.=20 The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which=20 includes more specific psychological explorations and=20 facilitated email groups. Details of some of these can be=20 found on the Psybernet Web site. The methods here are=20 those of experimentation and experiential research. The=20 list is a place for collaboration in the development of=20 ethical depth work of a psychological nature on the Internet. =20 Announcements about various projects will be made in=20 this list. The Psybernet web pages can be found at: http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html=20 The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman. Discussion of=20 how the list is facilitated is integral to its purpose. =20 ~~~ Subscription can be made from the Web at: http://www.netspace.org/cgi-bin/lwgate/Psyber-L/ Other commands can be easily executed from there. =20 Archives can be viewed and searched by email, though access via the Web may be easier. ~~~ Web Archives. The archives can be viewed at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html There is an exellent search facility here so the=20 archives or sub sections of it, can be explored=20 using any word.=20 ~~~ To subscribe and access archives using email only: Psyber-L is archived and these are available to with an=20 INDEX PSYBER-L command to the listserv. To subscribe to PSYBER-L, send the a command to: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM=20 in the BODY of e-mail: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname =46or example: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive=20 confirmation request, then an acknowledgment,=20 followed by a welcome message. To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to:=20 LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM =20 In the body of the email write: =20 SIGNOFF PSYBER-L ~~~ Owner: Walter Logeman =20 Last updated 12 January, 1997 _______________________________________________________________ =46or list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L