To: Walter Logeman Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9612" From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)" Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:45 -0400 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 21:38:02 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Mike Rael Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961201023612.0068214c@proaxis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ronni, If you are a wannabee, have pen in hand. Each day, pick out one post that interests you. Summarize it in your own words. Then write down a few sentences about what you *think* about it. Take what you have written down and paste it into a scrapbook. Review the scrapbook once/week. This simple action will leave you highly focused on learning that which genuinely interests you while promoting you to do some thinking about it. Believe me, when you give your opinions about issues, casually referring to the specific posts of other subscribers and mentioning those subscribers by name, people will perk up! They will seek you out on the list and via private email. You will be a wannabee no longer:) best regards, Mike Mike Rael, MS, instructional technology lakid@netcom.com listowner, self-esteem-self-help To subscribe, email:listserv@netcom.com No subject header Message: subscribe self-esteem-self-help "If you have a serious, ongoing problem, you will be referred to a therapist of your choice. The listowner, while experienced in these areas, is not a licensed therapist." On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Ronni wrote: > Actually, I wasn't finished with that last before it got sent. Sorry. > > My concerns? I don't know where I saw this list "advertised", but it > sounded like something I am interested in. After I started reading some of > the postings, I realized I am entirely out of my depth. I do not have a > doctorate, a masters, or even a bachelor's in psychology, as you all seem > to. I do not write poetry, nor do I understand a lot of it. I have gone > back and re-read the purpose of this list, and I do not think I would have > done anything differently, given the explanations by Walter. However, I > think now that I may be a "wannabe"....I am not intellectual enough to keep > up. I am a trainer, helping people help themselves. This particular > subject is interesting to me, but I seem to lack the credentials for this > particular list. > > Unfortunately, this is the first list I ever subscribed to. I regret having > said anything at this point. > > Ronni > > > At 06:10 PM 11/30/96 -0800, you wrote: > >Ronni, > > You did not talk out of turn. But...what *are* your concerns?? > > > >Mike > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 15:07:39 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Fwd: Aboriginal wisdom and economics (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings to all, The following forwarded message can apply also to the net, I believe. As I wander like a virtual nomad around various lists cyberside, I see people beginning to build bridges in the dreamtime of psyberspace, speaking and listening from a deep place within themselves, slowly relearning the art of communal storytelling and reawakening the need and the desire to learn from others. Everyone has a story to tell, and everyone can learn from the stories of others. simon, wishing everyone well... ----------Forwarded message begins---------- Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:02:30 -0400 From: Michael Gurstein Subject: Aboriginal wisdom and economics (fwd) To: CYBERMIND@LISTSERV.AOL.COM ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 21:03:08 +0800 From: John CROFT To: Designing for POST-INDUSTRIAL REALITIES Subject: Aboriginal wisdom and economics Charles Brass wrote in commenting on my reply to an earlier posting > Some associated with indigenous cultures advocate a return to the > way they did things and saw things as the salvation of the west. I am > very wary of people who advocate that the way forward is to go > back. Rather, I would like to think that we could learn from the lengthy > history of indigenous culture that certain basic processes and values > are critical (like providing for everyone's needs) to long term survival. > If we could all strive to develop our understanding of these basic > values - and then WORK to incorporate them into the way we do things > we would be making a huge difference to our survivability. I am reminded of a workshop I helped facilitate in the Southern Highlands Province of Papua New Guinea, when that country was preparing its second five year plan. Towards the completion of the workshop, one old man who had been silent thus far stood up and started, in a completely unselfconscious fashion, to sing. I asked my neighbour what was he saying, as a spoke no Anggal Heneng (i.e. "true talk" - us whites have no monopoly on ethnocentricism). I was told to "shush!" Later it was explained that I had just witnessed a last example of a dieing art of native oratory. The man in question sang his life. He told how he was the first person to lead the Kondol (red-skin, as we whites burn bright red) up the valley in the early 1950s. He explained how he was also the person who persuaded his people to release the land on which the provincial capital of Mendi now stood. He said that, sitting on his hill had given him a view of the ways of the Kondol that he would not have believed possible. He saw somethings that we Kondol did that were very good and he wanted these for his people. Other things we Kondol did were absolutely stupid, and he did not want those things. But watching the Kindol had given him the power to watch his own people, ythe Mendi Anggal Heneng, with a new eye. He saw some of the things which his people did were really good, and the Kondol needed these things urgently. Other things of his people were equally stupid, and his people should stop doing it. The secret of real development, this illiterate villager said, was to build a bridge of a kind never seen before, a bridge with a gate at both ends, between the ways of the Kondol and the ways of his own people. The bridge could start small, just a rope bridge, but as more and more people came on board, the bridge would need strengthening. The gate on the Kondol's side would be only open for the true ideas. His stupidities would find the gate shut. Equally the gate on the Anggal Heneng side would be open only to the sensible ideas, and shut to his stupidities. Eventually, everybody, he sang, would come to live on the bridge, and the world could be at peace. This image has been with me ever since, and best describes for me, not an assimilation of indigenous people to our way of doing and seeing things, but a mutual integration, where we can, in respect, learn from each other and build something totally new, for both our sakes. John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 20:47:38 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Nonprofit Influence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.wired.com:80/news/story/635.html?/news/96/48/3/business_sectio= n3a.html All the Web's a Stage for Nonprofit Influence by Michael Schrage=20 This article describes the notion that the web is an artistic medium in its own right, and is somewhat abused by acting as a metamedium for other art forms. =20 A notion familiar on this Psybernet list which has as its aim to explore the intrinsic psychological potential of the Internet.=20 Think "psychological" everytime this article mentions artistic, and it is a Psybernet treatise. w _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:24:10 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Psybernet Focus. [ was Re: helloooo. . . .] In-Reply-To: <199611301704.MAA15480@mh101.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Janell, > Good to hear you're doing well on your journey and that your laptop = seems > to be working. Hope that it continues. Yes I am doing well on my trip, have picked up my son and his friend Tina and it is great to unite with them. Staying with a friend of his, and admiring their discussion of design and graphics which they are into. My machine has an intermittent black out from time to time, so if I disappear, that is the cause. I wrote: > >The focus is the to explore experientially, the impact of the > >on-line media on our psyche. You wrote: > Glad to know the focus of the list, you may have said it before and I > missed it but I enjoy the experiental part of what you're saying. You ask also what is the *main* focus, and that is it. It is a broad one . . . like asking what is the effect of the industrial age on the psyche? We ask what is the effect of liberating information from bits, from books paper and printing press? From pen and ink? From the shops and mechanical delivery? From payment to publishers? =20 The psyche is not just an internal thing, it is an aspect of culture too think, the collective unconscious, the ethos. =20 > >This does not preclude theories to make sense of our experience, = however it is > >good to have the thinking linked to our experience . . . that way it = is a living > >thing . . . > Experience is alive, isn't it? > I'm a little curious about > what you mean about the confusion because of the *experiential* aspect?= I > don't see experience as being confusing. =20 I am thinking about the way I learnt psychodrama, which was to be in a group and to relate all the learning including the theory to the here and now of the group life. The group was always the real thing. It was not as if we were learning something and trying it out on the group. No training was ever *only* an exercise, but always the real thing. Most learning / teaching in our western culture is not like that, it is reading, talking, writing *about* something that happens away from the learning situation. That is why I thought it confusing . . . to simply *be* here in the group, and to experience its life, and to try different things out, is not what is commonly understood by research. Yet that is what we are doing here, that is the stated purpose of the list. =20 > Also what is the main task? To > make order out of chaos or something else? =20 The order / chaos theme I think is something that has arisen in the discussion. I think it comes out of our group life here which has been such as to bring that to the fore. In the past other themes have arisen, such as the importance of metaphor in cyberspace. Anonymity was a long thread in 1993 for example and led to the setting up of a group where members were anonymous. =20 > I've been silent again lately, > because of the family activities during the Thanksgiving holiday here = in the > U.S. (my three year old granddaughter doesn't like it when I don't pay > attention to her because I'm on my computer, and three year olds have a > strong voice). I don't have grand children yet, but I stayed with my friend Estelle here and she had two grand children for 24 hrs! 2 and a 5 year old, and they occupied us both very well! We will have a leisurly few days, but how much I can be here is still unclear! > In the water again. Happy swimming. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:24:39 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charles, > With best wishes, and a beeeg smile and hug for Walter, Acknowledged and returned. I trust you are well. Great to see you again Charles! You and Mike, i hope are facilitating Ronni's arrival here. I am not so hot on the poetry, and i do not have a doctorate, even though i *behave* like an absent minded professors from time to time. =20 I have been writing a bit about the *main* focus of the list, but for us to be able to notice and experience the process here plenty of all sorts of things can go on. And they can go on at once. =20 Ronni, please say more about your training work. =20 walter =20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:16:02 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Case/Giordano Subject: Overwhelmed in Psyberspace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello to all who communicate on this list. I have been a subscriber(?) for about one month and have felt overwhelmed by the communications. I've had a hard time reading anything over a paragraph in length because I don't sit still that long!!! (As my good friend Janell can attest.) The piece sent by Walter, "helooooo" caught my attention. (Was it Walter or am I mistaken?) I then proceeded to read my other 23 messages, 22 of which were from this list! I found these to be more interesting than usual...a bit more grounded. (I am a plebe of sorts and the existential nature of many communications involve too much thought on my part) I could relate to Ronni's doubts about 'belonging' on this list. I have been very tempted to unsubscribe, as well. But Ronni brought me out of the woodwork...and I am now vulnerable to THIS world! I am still unsure about staying...but I'll give myself another try at this. My initial rason for giving this list a try was my love for psychodrama. I am a psychodramatist and thought others would communicate their experiences and thoughts along these lines. ---My eyes and heart are open--- *Rhona* _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:39:17 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Overwhelmed in Psyberspace In-Reply-To: <199612030416.XAA29624@mh101.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rhona, Welcome. > I then proceeded to read my other 23 messages, 22 of > which were from this list! I found these to be more interesting than > usual...a bit more grounded.=20 To do any of this stuff you might need a program that filters the mail. 23 is nothin, we have been quiet! > My initial rason for giving this list a try was my love for = psychodrama. =20 I love it too. I love the intesity, and the drama, moreso the revolutionary potential of sociometry. Moreno had quite a political agenda. > am a psychodramatist and thought others would communicate their = experiences > and thoughts along these lines. I think of this list as the psychodrama stage of the Internet. Note though that while psychodrama in morenos wrds "explores truth by dramatic means" here we use electronic and virtual means. The imagination mediated by text. =20 Anyway . . . my way of putting all this may not sound all that grounded. =20 I am just saying hallo, and that I hope you enjoy this e space! =20 Walter=20 =20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 21:12:00 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Overwhelmed in Psyberspace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rhona Welcome!!! Great, it's good to see and hear you venturing into cyberspace. I realize how much of a risk this is for you. I wanted to respond when I got this at 7:00AM this morning but alas I was running late for real life (work) and I couldn't do it until tonight. I think, although I'm not sure, that you, Walter and I may be the only psychodramatists on the list. Unless there are some lurking out there and keeping quiet. However, the diversity on the list has been very rewarding for me and is one of the things that I like. I responded to Ronni's posting as well and I hope that she is still out there somewhere. Ronni, are you still with us??? >> I then proceeded to read my other 23 messages, 22 of >> which were from this list! I found these to be more interesting than >> usual...a bit more grounded. > >To do any of this stuff you might need a program that filters the >mail. 23 is nothin, we have been quiet! Walter gave me the same advice once, but he neglects to say what programs or where they're available from. If he can recommend any good ones I'd like to hear more about them. > >> My initial rason for giving this list a try was my love for psychodrama. > >I love it too. I love the intesity, and the drama, moreso the >revolutionary potential of sociometry. Moreno had quite a >political agenda. > >> am a psychodramatist and thought others would communicate their experiences >> and thoughts along these lines. > >I think of this list as the psychodrama stage of the Internet. >Note though that while psychodrama in morenos wrds "explores >truth by dramatic means" here we use electronic and virtual >means. The imagination mediated by text. > >Anyway . . . my way of putting all this may not sound all that >grounded. > I like Walter's concept of the list as the psychodrama stage of the internet, it seems to me an interesting way of looking at cyberspace. Still swimming along!! Janell > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 07:15:34 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: Overwhelmed in Psyberspace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Charles, Janell, Mike, Walter: Thank you for your interest and encouragement. > I responded to Ronni's posting as well and I hope that she is still out >there somewhere. Ronni, are you still with us??? I am a 49-year-old female from Oregon. I am 5'7", with dark brown hair and bright blue eyes. I walk 2 miles a day and work out at the gym 3 days a week with a personal trainer. I msut admit my favorite reading is a historical novel, and my favorite author is James Michener. Currently I have 2 books I am writing: one is a how-to book on organization management for small associations; and the other is about love and relationships on the internet. I enjoy traveling, especially to new places, and working with foreign exchange students. I continue taking classes in anything that interests me. I am interested in how relationships work. I was hoping to find out more about how you feel the internet impacts our relationships. Currently I am working as a training coordinator for a pulp and paper mill, although my college degree is a B.S. in Home Economics/Communications and Journalism. I have worked as a corporate Home economist for a grocery store chain; a feature writer for several newspapers; a copy writer for mail order catalogs (Harry & David; Jackson & Perkins); a manager of a chamber of commerce; executive secretary of a state trade association; a lobbyist; and a legislative assistant. I have written (and acted in) television commercials and operated the camera for a television sports show. I have also trained adults in girl scouting, and directed Girl Scout camps. This is probably more than you cared to know ... but I am interested in this list even though my background is so diverse. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 20:06:47 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jerry Keogh Subject: Re: Overwhelmed in Psyberspace In-Reply-To: <199612030416.XAA29624@mh101.infi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Hello to all who communicate on this list. I have been a subscriber(?) for >about one month and have felt overwhelmed by the communications. I've had = a >hard time reading anything over a paragraph in length because I don't sit >still that long!!! (As my good friend Janell can attest.) > >The piece sent by Walter, "helooooo" caught my attention. (Was it Walter >or am I mistaken?) I then proceeded to read my other 23 messages, 22 of >which were from this list! I found these to be more interesting than >usual...a bit more grounded. (I am a plebe of sorts and the existential >nature of many communications involve too much thought on my part) > >I could relate to Ronni's doubts about 'belonging' on this list. I have >been very tempted to unsubscribe, as well. But Ronni brought me out of the >woodwork...and I am now vulnerable to THIS world! I am still unsure about >staying...but I'll give myself another try at this. > >My initial rason for giving this list a try was my love for psychodrama. I >am a psychodramatist and thought others would communicate their experiences >and thoughts along these lines. > > ---My eyes and heart are open--- > > *Rhona* > O.K Folks!!! Heres another beginner crawling out of the woodwork !!!! Rhona , I assume a psychodramtist takes part in a psychodrama.But what is = a psychodrama!! I don=B4t think it has anything to do with Alfred Hitchcock,= or does it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.... >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 21:18:57 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Managing Mail [was Overwhelmed in Psyberspace ] In-Reply-To: <199612040212.VAA21412@mh101.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Janell, Ronni, all, > I realize > how much of a risk this is for you. I recall it feeling like that, and on occasions it still does. How easy it is to take silence personally. How easy it is to read all sorts of things between the lines! =20 I now tend to think of what I read into those spaces as my own shadow . . . but even that does not help at times. > I think, although I'm not sure, that you, Walter and I may be the = only > psychodramatists on the list. Unless there are some lurking out there = and > keeping quiet. =20 The only ones I know about . . . although Josh, my son knows a lot about the method. Miles, has experienced some psychodrama groups, Dan, who surfaces on occasions here has some experience of the method. =20 > However, the diversity on the list has been very rewarding > for me and is one of the things that I like. Reading Mail > >To do any of this stuff you might need a program that filters the > >mail. 23 is nothin, we have been quiet! >=20 > Walter gave me the same advice once, but he neglects to say what = programs > or where they're available from. If he can recommend any good ones I'd = like > to hear more about them. I use a PC, Win95, and use Agent, now up to version .99f. I now have the mail sorted into about 20 folders. I rarely use the editor in Agent, but I copy and paste from that into Word 7. That way I can use my auto correct abbreviations and other features. The advantage of Agent IMO is that it also does Newsgroups. It now supports MIME and so when I get attachments in html format I can click them open into Netscape. There is good support. =20 Agent is available for 29.95 (I think), the free version Free Agent does not (or did not filter mail). =20 =46ind it on the web stating here:=20 http://www.forteinc.com/forte/agent/support.htm ( I hope this works . . . I can't check it as I am off line in a kitchen in a camping ground !) Eudora Pro and Pegasus mail also filter mail, and I believe that there are Microsoft ways of doing it. I bet the next version of Netscape . . . the Communicator will also do it. =20 If this is not clear to anyone just beginning, it is fine to ask! It is so difficult to know what to tell people as we all use different systems and are at different levels of understanding. =46or all i know there are far better ways of doing it than mine. I'd be interested in hearing how others do it. It might lead to us being a bit technical rather than psychological but our tools are important, as any psychodramatist knows. I have renamed this post Managing Mail so that those not interested in it can skip!=20 > I like Walter's concept of the list as the psychodrama stage of the > internet, it seems to me an interesting way of looking at cyberspace. Thanks,=20 Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 21:19:03 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Relationships [was Overwhelmed in Psyberspace] In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961204151534.0069f880@proaxis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ronni,=20 Thanks for your introduction. > I am interested > in how relationships work. I was hoping to find out more about how = you > feel the internet impacts our relationships. While I write now, here to this list I have a sense of virtual people. I feel strongly the presence of some . . . you, because of your intro , and because I am responding to you. All those who have written recently, and also Laurel, Robert, Wilbur, because they have particular experience in Internet relationships. =20 I think I have a good bond with several other people who I have not met face to face, Charles especially as we have worked hard together in the DreamEvent, there is nothing like joint projects to get to know someone. =20 I did say virtual people. The reason for that is that I have a totally different relationship with people in my non computer world, a totally different feeling. I feel strongly about the people here, no mistake, but it is not the same as family and friends in my offline world. I used to have a good connection with a member of this list, Ron Sheer. He changed cities and never came back . . . I hope he is OK, strange thing to have happened. =20 Ronni, This is just my here & now response, I hope you get heaps more and fine a way of getting your book done. What gave you the inspiration to write that book?=20 walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 20:01:54 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: Relationships [was Overwhelmed in Psyberspace] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter: Thank you for your response to my intro. As I read subsequent responses I am feeling much less intimidated on this list, and - surprise! - part of the group. The inspiration to write a book about internet relationships? Dare I say first hand experience? I "met" a guy from across the country in a chat room, followed by 3 months of phone calls during which he convinced me I was the dream girl he was looking for. I flew 3,000 miles to meet him during a time of my life when I was particularly vulnerable - and he basically said, "Sorry, my mistake." I know many of these types of meetings have ended quite happily, while many of them end as mine did. I am doing other research for this book, as I want it to be a contribution to the understanding of this aspect of use of the 'net. Ronni >Ronni, > >This is just my here & now response, I hope you get heaps more >and fine a way of getting your book done. What gave you the >inspiration to write that book? > > >walter > > > >_____________________________________________________ >Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz >http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 21:58:51 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Relationships In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961207040154.006957c4@proaxis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ronni, All, > The inspiration to write a book about internet relationships? Dare I = say > first hand experience?=20 And a difficult one by the sound of it. =20 It is a difficult business . . . even now in this group, what do you make of the silence to your request about discussion of online relationship? =20 I sense deep fear . . . yet that *might* just be a projection! Walter PS, nothing wrong with fear . . . has helped many avoid a bad crash! _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 22:22:16 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Managing Mail In-Reply-To: <32bd9968.61872260@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have just discovered that there is a SET command that inserts the list name into the subject line. With this on, every message in this list would begin with the word: PSYBER-L: For those without mail filtering this might be of use! =20 send a message to the listserv (see the sig below) =20 SET PSYBER-L SUBJ walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 22:49:52 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: PWP: What's New MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All in the project, I have done some more scribing . Look at the whats new file where I record what I am up to. =20 http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/pwnew.htm=20 Send summaries of other topics up and I'll web scribe them. w _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 01:37:40 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Sociometry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am back at work, after 10 days away and in a mad pre Christmas rush, we have our summer holiday coming up as well as Christmas. Nice to have a place with *both* a powerpoint and a phone jack! Will the day ever come that I have a battery that works and a cell phone for the laptop? ~~~ Sociometry A simple idea: With respect to any criteria we have a positive, neutral, or negative projection towards a person. =20 We are working on building software that will assist sociometric procedures, measuring the projections and utilising them on the Internet. =20 There are many implications for Psybernet and the Internet as a whole, as one can imagine! People interested in the technical side of this, or with experience in software development, let me know off-list. =20 How these ideas impact on us, and any other discussion welcome here too . .=20 Walter=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 21:06:45 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Sociometry In-Reply-To: <32ad8e77.2389454@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, > >Sociometry > >A simple idea: > >With respect to any criteria we have a positive, neutral, or >negative projection towards a person. > >We are working on building software that will assist sociometric >procedures, measuring the projections and utilising them on the >Internet. > But, but... can the eros factor be quantified, algorhythmicized, weighted, digitized, or codified? What keeps this _once it is imbedded at the operating level_ from being another exercize in inflated sensation and overweening masculinity and saturnian over-organizing? *** Hey I know I don't know the details! Just some sparks looking for tinder... :-) *** To particularize the projection and then *particulate* it, in Jungian terms, is to rob it of it's fullness and a soul thus rebuffed will come back _perhaps_ right at the point all the thinking is most bright, the shadows' most intense, and the defect in feeling only apparent should the heart's mirror have still enough angle to catch the inward rays...themselves weak glimmers from out of the darkness. *** A most peculiar project; photographic in a way, when a hologram is needed. IMO Best to all, HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 02:34:43 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Sociometry Content-Type: text Walter said: <> >Sociometry > >A simple idea: > >With respect to any criteria we have a positive, neutral, or >negative projection towards a person. > >We are working on building software that will assist sociometric >procedures, measuring the projections and utilising them on the >Internet. > Then hoon responded and tho I mostly listen here given my lack of knowledge about the Jungian framing, I too wondered in my own way about what it is, Walter, that the software would provide from your perspectiveframing? What would be revealed by categorizing the projection? and maybe I'm not in sync here but I wonder at what *positive/negative/neutral* would mean? If I'm projecting my idealized father onto the man in my life, what is the criteria for *positive/negative/neutral*? Of course, I may be missing the whole idea of projection and I acknowledge I live in a very different framing, however, a spark flew into my eye:-) when I read what you wrote. hoon continued *** In my limited and brand spanking new learning about projection and playing with the concept in my experience, it seems to serve something for me which I can *apply* and extract a learning from, and I would be hard pressed to know how to quantify the experience except that I learned from it and found illumination which I then integrated...a particularly positive outcome, tho the experience of it might have smarted a bit...but then I may be missing the projection:-) judith judithb@sbc1.com -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 02:50:53 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Relationships Content-Type: text Walter you responded to Ronni: The inspiration to write a book about internet relationships? Dare I = say > first hand experience?=20 And a difficult one by the sound of it. =20 It is a difficult business . . . even now in this group, what do you make of the silence to your request about discussion of online relationship? =20 I sense deep fear . . . yet that *might* just be a projection!> Ronni I think the subject of relationship is a fascinating idea to write about and would certainly be an interesting contribution. Walter, I'm curious about what *sense of deep fear* you are refering to? My experience with relating on-line is a mind to mind connection which is deeply fulfilling, however, I have not had the experience that the relating turns into relationship...meaning in my case female male, however, I have been gifted with a couple of meaningful relatings one of which spills over into f2f...what I have experienced is that there is a greater *pool* of potential people to bump into on-line which I relate to as a starting point...increasing the odds so to speak that I could in fact find that relationship I'm open to... So I think the book idea is a hot topic, Ronni, and what fun to research and write! Judith Judithb@sbc1.com Walter PS, nothing wrong with fear . . . has helped many avoid a bad crash! -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:25:36 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dennis Rouelle Subject: Re: Relationships Roni or Walter, I've just been added to you distrib list so not sure of the initial query about on-line relationships; but I have heard (second hand from a classmate in a grad class - Assessment & Diagnosis) of one woman who used the Net to search for what she claimed to be relationships; She had a live-in lover but used Email to fiend "friends" in other parts of the country. Not much more detail than that; not in touch with that classmate since last year. Dennis _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:06:12 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Re: Sociometry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, perhaps this is unrelated....but, I have been following a discussion on a cogsci listserv about the difference between the terms expert systems and/or knowledge-based systems, and emergent systems in artificial intelligence (?!) Essentially, many programmers are steering away from the idea of pre-programmed definitions embedded into the programming and towards "greyer" or "fuzzier" logic systems that literally create definitions from user/s imput. While I think both Judith and Hoon are correct in wondering "Who sets the definitions? Who answers the questions? What happens when the part is separate from the whole (the soul)?" ) Newer systems often place individual response at the heart of the, self- programming process of the program. The numbers of who and what grow as the program grows. The definitions are literally created by the individual >whole< responses of the users. (Which, of course, does not erase very real concerns ... when this stuff starts sounding too good, I remind myself of the movie "Brazil" !) I have sent, under a separate cover, a bit of a paper I mentioned several months ago. In this particular section, I tie in the idea of interaction in on-line education (formal/informal/large sense of the word), the internet, and new trends in AI programming. I think we are talking about the same thing really ---- the necessity of the individual in a dynamic, group setting the internet allows.... the possibilities.... Holly >Walter said: >>Sociometry.... >>We are working on building software that will assist sociometric >>procedures, measuring the projections and utilising them on the >>Internet. >> > Then hoon responded > >can the eros factor be quantified, algorhythmicized, weighted, digitized, >or codified? > >What keeps this _once it is imbedded at the operating level_ from being >another exercize in inflated sensation and overweening masculinity and >saturnian over-organizing? then Judith said.... > >and tho I mostly listen here given my lack of knowledge about the Jungian >framing, I too wondered in my own way about what it is, Walter, that the >software would provide from your perspectiveframing? What would be revealed >by categorizing the projection? and maybe I'm not in sync here but I wonder >at what *positive/negative/neutral* would mean? _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:06:14 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Selection from Research Paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Warning ---- yes, this is an academic-style paper written while I was in graduate school. If it is of interest, I am heartened. If it is not, please delete or ignore .... but please do not comment about pretense or academic words ....etc etc. All it is is one smoe's (that's me) attempt to think through something that really interests me in a way that I could reach my audience, which at the the time was a graduate school professor. I think the list has room for all types of conversations .... needs to have room for all types of conversations .... Holly (a bit defensive about posting this...) P.S. Walter...finally I respond to the "memes" thread ! **************************************************************************** **************** from "Technology, Interaction and Educational Opportunity: When the Arrows Go Both Ways" written in May 1996 by Holly Gillcash. (Having talked about newsgroups and the informal way individuals can share information on-line.....) ......What shape that interaction takes will be determined by the individuals who post to the group. In this way each society, or newsgroup, will be constructed by the socialization of each of its members. It is interesting that the emergence of newsgroup cultures parallels a trend toward constructivism and social interaction in learning theory. But before we consider educational ramifications, let us first consider Sherry Turkle's discussion of artificial intelligence in her latest book > Life on Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet.< Ms. Turkle recounts how Hubert Dreyfus, a scientists in the '60s, claimed "without embodied knowledge, computers "could not do" intellectual tasks that required intuition and experience." (Turkle, p. 129). She contrasts this earlier "information processing" approach in AI with more recent "emergent" or "connectionist" approaches which focus on programming computers with "learning algorithms." (Turkle, p. 131). In the emergent approach "...the proponents of emergent AI were linking computers to the world of humans through biological and social metaphors. (Turkle, p. 133)." "the system.... modeled after the brain would not be guided by top-down procedures. It would make connections from the bottom up, as the brain's neurons are thought to do. So the system could learn by a large number of different connections. In this sense, the system would be unpredictable and nondeterministic. (Turkle, p. 131-132)." The new emergent computers, therefore, do not need to be programmed with all "knowledge in advance." The emergent computers would "invoke" knowledge through small, algorithms -- literally self-programming new knowledge by assessing system feedback. (Turkle, p. 132). Turkle's discussion of emergent computers includes a brief summary of the work of Marvin Minsky's, an AI researcher, who wrote The Society of Mind, in which he "describes an emergent system, an inner world of highly anthropomorphized agents. Each agent has a limited point of view. Complexity of behavior, emotion and thought emerge from the interplay of their opposing view, from their interactions and negotiations. (Turkle, p. 137)." While Minsky's description focuses on what occurs within the machine, his description can apply equally to the emerging interactive system online. Minsky's observation could be made as easily about newsgroups. Each person within the newsgroup stands as an independent, smaller algorithm. As new situations and information comes in, the individual shares the information or distributes the information for processing by other individuals (algorithms). The results are feed back to the system as newsgroup postings. Thinking about newsgroups as systems, the way programmers think of artificial intelligence, provides more depth to understanding how they work. Perhaps in this way, the newsgroups are more than just a collection of people's opinions. Perhaps the interaction of individuals literally programs new understandings. "In the May 1996 issue of Wired magazine, James Gardner proposes a stronger theory: What if culture -- even consciousness itself -- were nothing more than an artifact of the interaction of selfish memes, ideas capable of replicating and co-evolving with supreme indifference to their impact on human hosts? ...What if it were possible to construct a new science of meme -- memetic engineering -- analogous to the discipline of genetic engineering? (Gardner, p. 101)." Or, in the same way one can extract Minky's argument from the computer and impose it on system understanding of newsgroups, could Gardner's proposition describe the ebb, flow, and evolution of human meanings within the larger community of newsgroup participants? If this is so, than technology does not merely carry content. The structure of the mediums delivery and access plays a central role in the creation of ideas and meanings. It is an instrument of construction, the juncture at which algorithms synthesize feedback. Jerome Bruner, in his book Acts of Meaning, stresses the importance looking beyond the individual toward understanding how the individual can be understood as acting and determining meaning only within a larger circle of culture: "It is man's (sic) participation in culture and the realization of his mental powers through culture that make it impossible to construct a human psychology on the basis of the individual alone. (Bruner, p. 12)" "Meaning is rendered public or shared....the child enters life...as a participant in a larger public process in which public meanings are negotiated. And in this process, meanings are not to his own advantage unless he can get them shared by others...(Bruner, p. 13)." "People organize their experience in, knowledge about, and transactions with the social world.....(Bruner, p. 35)." Bruner's theory of constructed meaning describes a process similar to the exchange of personal narrative of experience. Bruner's theory proposes that individuals are inherently motivated to share experience and knowledge in order to find the meanings and relevance of those experiences. Meaning is created through interaction, a dynamic process. The arrows go both ways. Interaction in Education Turkle, Minsky, Gardner, and Bruner pose questions that address the very root of human meaning. Their work can, however, be integrated into the smaller universe of educational theory. If scientists are finding interaction at the heart of meaning, and if technology allows for unprecedented levels of interaction, what can this mean? How does interaction fit into traditional educational models? Does what we think of education need to change? ______ Resources Bandura, Albert. "Social Cognitive Theory," Annals of Child Development, Vol. 6, pages 1-60. 1989. JAI Press, Inc. Bates, A.W. (Tony), Technology, Open Learning and Distance Education. New York, NY: Routledge. 1995. Bruner, Jerome. Acts of Meaning. (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press). 1990. Cross, K. Patricia. Adults as Learners: Increasing Participation and Facilitating Learning. (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass Publishers), 1981. Gardner, Howard, with collaboration of Emma Laskin. Leading Minds. New York, NY: Basic Books. 1995. Gardner, Howard. The Unschooled Mind. New York, NY: Basic Books. 1991. Harasim, Linda; Hiltz, Starr Roxanne; Teles, Lusio; and Turoff, Murray. Learning Networks: A Field guide to Teaching and Learning Online. (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press) 1995. Huston, Althea, et. al. Big World, Small Screen, The Role of Television in American Society, (Lincoln, NB: University of Nebraska Press. 1992. Moore, Michael and Kearsley, Greg. Distance Education: A Systems View. USA: Wadsworth Publishing Company. 1996. Naisbitt, John. Global Paradox. (New York, NY: Avon Books). 1995. Palmer, Edward, and MacNeil, Maurya. "Children's Comprehension Processes: From Piaget to Public Policy," Responding to the Screen: Reception and Reaction Processes (Hillsdale, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates. 1991. pp. 27-44 Perkins, David. Smart Schools: Better Thinking and Learning for Every Child. New York, NY: The Free Press. 1992. Postman, Neil. The End of Education. (New York, NY: Knopf). 1995. Reingold, Howard. The Virtual Community: Homesteading on the Electronic Frontier. (New York, NY: HarperPerennial). 1993. Statella, Michelle. "Who Can I Turn To?" WIRED, May 1996, p. 116-119. Thorpe, Mary. "The Challenging Facing Course Design," Open and Distance Learning Today edited by Lockwood, Fred. (New York, NY: Routledge). 1995. Turkle, Sherry. Life on Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet. (New York, NY: Simon & Schuster). 1995. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 16:44:24 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Sociometry Content-Type: text Holly, and all, whole< responses of the users.> yes, I've been out of the AI loop for a few years now so am not familiar with what is actually going on so I defer, Holly, to your knowledge...something in what you touched on reminded me of complexity theory-Santa Fe Institute- and I think it is Kaufman, tho the exacts have slipped into the nonretrievable at the moment... <(Which, of course, does not erase very real concerns ... when this stuff starts sounding too good, I remind myself of the movie "Brazil" !)> you bet...I hold all of it as learning anyway... thanks for posting this...much has happened since I was directly involved in adult learning and my doctorate course work at CIIS which was truly about studying transformative learning while transforming thru the on-line program...takes me back thanks holly, I will enjoy reading your research Judith Judithb@sbc1.com -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 16:39:32 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Sociometry In-Reply-To: <199612101506.KAA05442@zork.tiac.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >(Which, of course, does not erase very real concerns ... when this stuff >starts sounding too good, I remind myself of the movie "Brazil" !) > Holly, Your response in retrospect is charitable toward my own naive blurtings. I went down to the spanking new library at Case Western Reserve University to get more on angle on sociometry and Moreno and was, well not surprised really, to learn that my connotation(s) are completely private while there is, if not a large, a significant literature and plenty of basicenough stuff to give me an outsidelookingin acquaintance with the terminology and concepts. More odd this afternoon was my girlfriend pulling spontaneously a bound copy of group Psychotherapy down (we were just standing by the photocopiers,) only to discover it was an issue devoted to Psychodrama and Sociometry, and contained both an article "A Framework For the Observation of Movements and Sounds" (C.J. Wainwright) which exactingly got at a thread happening on the Netdynam list (concerning the lack of auditory data,) and then an outline by Joe W. Hart, "Basic Postulates of Sociometry". (Well, that's why she and I are together.) Anyway, I'm studying. HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 22:13:22 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Sociometry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen, > can the eros factor be quantified, algorhythmicized, weighted, = digitized, > or codified? How does this sound to you: | Chaos theory concerns the (mathematical) *order* of models of=20 | non-linear, dynamical systems. (I've always supposed it was=20 | because *chaos* rolls off the tongue more easily than=20 | *complex non-linear systems* that the beautifully ordered and=20 | mathematically formalized theories which concern such=20 | systems have been saddled with a name with such an=20 | unfortunate connotation as chaos. oh well...) =20 | That said, what is chaotic in the general often turns out to be=20 | quite ordered in the specific, and thus, for example, the=20 | seemingly random self-organization of the fractal is in fact=20 | driven by specific and orderly mathematical operations. Yes,=20 | there is an *unpredictable* output, but this is not randomness;=20 | a key distinction.=20 | ***=20 | Laurel you do uncover, for me,=20 | something important: the paradoxical creativity and spontaneity=20 | and even anarchy arising out of an internet itself dependent on=20 | the orderly and linear 'mechanics' of the digital network.=20 | I'm not sure if the internet as a physical structure can be described= =20 | as a non-linear system; my guess is even with the asychronous=20 | variables it is comprehensible within the calculus of linear=20 | systems theory. However, the expression of a single creative=20 | person, let alone a group or a network, seems to me to be an=20 | expression of complexity and non-linearity. Metaphorically, and=20 | perhaps even mathematically. =20 | Far out to me too, =20 =20 > What keeps this _once it is imbedded at the operating level_ from being > another exercize in inflated sensation and overweening masculinity and > saturnian over-organizing? Good point, part of that paradox. =20 As a group psychotherapist, with a background in working with the "group as a whole" and making abstractions about the life of the group based on sociometric (who is relating to who on what theme) I am comfortable with that paradox. There analysis linked to (soulful) synthesis. > *** >=20 > Hey I know I don't know the details! Just some sparks looking for = tinder... :-) We are looking at the details and thinking we can make something that provides webs on the net bases on *people's links to people* rather than peoples links to information and data. =20 > *** >=20 > To particularize the projection and then *particulate* it, in Jungian > terms, is to rob it of it's fullness and a soul thus rebuffed will come > back _perhaps_ right at the point all the thinking is most bright, the > shadows' most intense, and the defect in feeling only apparent should = the > heart's mirror have still enough angle to catch the inward > rays...themselves weak glimmers from out of the darkness. I have a sense of you not wanting to loose the richness of the nuances in our interactions. On the net we *are* in the chaotic (ordered) flow of things and I think making tools, ships, to assist our journeys is OK . . . true that some technology robs us of our soulfulness, true also that some adds to it! That is why being a luddite is too indiscriminate. =20 > *** >=20 > A most peculiar project; photographic in a way, when a hologram is = needed. I see it as simply riding the holograms and fractal waves of interpersonal links . . . Good to reflect on this with you! Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 18:57:02 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Don Corriveau Subject: CPA's Site of the Week! Comments: To: Clinical-Psychologists@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, PSYCHOEDUCATIONAL_ASSESS@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU, CLINICAL-PSYCHOLOGISTS@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, psy-media@listp.apa.org, psycho-pharm@PsyCom.Net, psychoanalytic-studies@sheffield.ac.uk, PSYCHNEWS@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, PSYBUS@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, ASSESS-P@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, NETPSY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, PSYCH-CI@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, COMMUNITY-PSYCHOLOGY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Fellow Listmember, The Canadian Psychological Association ( http://www.cpa.ca ) has selected WebEd (http://ceus.com ) as its Site of the Week. Mental health professionals who need CEU's, CME's or PDP's to maintain their licenses are welcome to view our initial course offerings. Since negotiations with new faculty will result in many new courses within the next few months, we highly recommend that you join our mailing list to be informed of these new offerings. Don Corriveau, Ph.D. Provost, WebEd _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 18:22:42 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: Relationships Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dennis: Thank you for your response to my original message. To update you, I am writing a book about online relationships, or "Love on the Net" so to speak. I think it is a very interesting...and timely....subject, and I just happen to have been caught in one as well. Ronni >Roni or Walter, > >I've just been added to you distrib list so not sure of the initial query >about on-line relationships; but I have heard (second hand from a classmate >in a grad class - Assessment & Diagnosis) of one woman who used the Net to >search for what she claimed to be relationships; She had a live-in lover but >used Email to fiend "friends" in other parts of the country. Not much more >detail than that; not in touch with that classmate since last year. > >Dennis > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 02:58:25 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ellen Uecker Subject: List Practices_Etiquette Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To all List Subscribers: New to the realm of "lists"..and having just joined this one following an upsetting & brief subscription on another similar list...I decided to ask about "list protocol" before jumping in. On the other list I was accused of shameful and "blatant self-promotion" after posting a detailed description/ad for a book I finally have in publication, after 10 long years of struggle. I have worked as a professional (OTR) in public mental health for many years, but when I began investigating and writing about alternative approaches..more Jungian, mystical, etc.__and especially when I published an article in a therapy journal suggesting the use of Tarot card images as a projective testing and therapy tool__I was severely criticized and accused of promoting the "occult", here being associated with devil worship, witchcraft, etc. In actuality the word "occult" refers to "hidden knowledge", but has come to be associated with evil. This reaction caused me to be very cautious professionally, and to gravitate towards the so-called New Age community. Acceptance for my ideas was more forthcoming in this group, although I was generally considered too traditional..too psychology oriented, especially in my approach to Tarot. Living in a very conservative, rather isolated part of the midwest, I spent years (on & off) researching and working on my book (described below) in relative isolation, with no one to express my ideas to and trying to find a publisher. Although I finally found a beginning publisher willing to produce my book, it has taken over 3 years to actually complete the project, using my own finances for the mostpart. Up until 2 years ago, I wouldn't have been able to even turn a computer on..I was truly computer iliterate. Pushing 50, I thought I could get through life without ever using one. Now that I have actually mastered the basics, I can't imagine surviving without one...although it was often the most frustrating thing I have ever tackled. In the last 8 months, I've ventured out into cyberspace on the internet..and discovering that there were lots of others like me out there.. others I could connect with who would be open to__even understand my ideas__and not react like I was off the deep end...well, it was incredibly liberating. At times I have been carried away with my internet involvement..the possibilities are phenomenal. I have drawn only a few clients so far for "psycho-spiritual" counseling, but the intensity of these therapy relationships was something I wasn't prepared for at first. The connections are, in some respects, more trusting, more intense & open, more dynamic than any face-to-face counseling experiences I have had. The anonimity factor is significant in this, but also people are usually interacting from their home base, where defenses are relaxed. I've also made positive connections around my book promotion and recently was encouraged (by a doctorate psychotherapist) to approach the "professional" audience with my ideas & my book...that this might be the right time. Perhaps I've been a little too exhuberant in my self-promotion, but I feel I'm making up for lost time. What follows below is e-mail to & from Walter Logeman__including a good portion of the book ad I referred to. Within the context of this "list" and this posting, it is presented for the purpose of looking at "list etiquette" as well as opening a dialogue about Jungian-archetypal, holistic, more spiritual approaches to mental health and counseling__and specifically the psychodynamic qualities of Tarot imagery, if there is any interest in this subject. I apologize for the length of this...your forbearance & patience will be appreciated, along with any comments__positive or negative. Ellen ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Mr. Logeman: > > I am very new to the phenomenon of "Lists" and would like to know if it's > appropriate or acceptable to send information to list members regarding > one's own products, books, or related developments that may be useful to > people that choose to be on a particular list. I include an example of a > mailing that I would like to send...but I am not really certain about usual > list practices or etiquette. Your assistance is sencerely appreciated. > > Thank you > > Ellen Z. Uecker (ezecker@win.bright.net) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ellen Uecker, Welcome to the list, i see you have just joined. Someone else just did the same, and posted an ad for a course, without checking out! I prefer your approach. I have nothing against list members posting this sort of inf, but i dont like it when people just join for that purpose, it is an invasion, and honestly, i dont think it would help sell the book. if you have just joned many lists, why not participate in one of your likeing and get dialogue on the art of tarot and psychodynamics of interest *to you* going, and then i bet people would also read the book on the basis of knowing you. More than that, *they* might recommend it. cold crashes might work in sense of some pay off in the short run after a mail bomb. Anyway i invite you to participate, and post this if you think it fits! It is certainly on topic for the list, but more so the very question we are discussing here! list ethics and leadership/participation. walter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >TAROT LOOKING GLASS__The Psychodynamics of Tarot Imagery:A Practitioners Guide > by E.Z. Uecker, OTR > "TAROT LOOKING GLASS" is a new book offering a structured procedure, along > with theoretical background, for alternative use of Tarot cards in > psycho-spiritual counseling. Simple card exercises & interpretations > integrate traditional Jungian archetypal/Freudian psychoanalytic techniques > in a process designed to build a bridge between the conscious ego, the > universal unconscious, and the personal unconscious...ideally resulting in > a fully actualized, transcendent Higher Self. Daily living skills are > enhanced through complete self-awareness & access to inner guidance. > Through practical application, this process results in improved > relationships and problem solving/goal planning skills that work in harmony > with one's life purpose. > > This book approaches the Tarot from a psychodynamic frame of reference..and > can be used on various levels, including for the study of the esoteric > symbolism inherent in the cards, as well as together with the specific card > exercises outlined. These exercises guide the individual through a > step-by-step procedure designed to develop awareness of the unconscious > aspects of life problems and conflicts...and then through a process of > problem-solving and life goal planning designed to access the individual's > Higher Self awareness_including a connection with the universal unconscious > & intuitive awareness, to be integrated with the individual personal > unconscious. Card interpretations are designed to provide ease of use and > quick reference in this new adaptation of Tarot cards. > > I am a Registered Occupational Therapist (OTR) with over 20 years > experience in the mental health field, and I offer "TAROT LOOKING GLASS" as > an alternative for traditional as well as New Age counselors; as a guide > for individuals ready to journey within. This book provides accepted > methods for applying Tarot card images in a psychodynamic process. > > Excerpts may be read at the following web-site address: > > http://www.win.bright.net/~ezecker > > Book Review Excerpts: > > "As they mined the treasures of the unconscious, Jung and his > contemporaries utilized phenomenon such as the Tarot and astrology as tools > of Self discovery. This book provides like-minded professional counselors > and laypersons on a journey of introspection and spiritual growth with > insight evoking methods for using the Tarot cards to further > self-understanding." > ---Linda M. Sandel, Ed.D., Psychotherapist > > "..exciting new handbook that reviews the Tarot in terms of Jungian > "Archetypes" and the images of the collective unconscious...clear and > concise guide to the achievement of Higher Self Actualization...ties > together the historical aspects of Tarot with the theories of Carl Jung and > Sigmund Freud. This milestone work begins with an overview of their ideas > to develop the connection..simple card exercises and interpretations to > encourage an understanding of the unconscious aspects of life, problems and > conflicts. E.Z.Uecker has given us a wonderful > path to understanding our own Higher Self..a superior work for both the > professional counselor or the layperson." > ---Richard Fuller, Senior Editor-Metaphysical Reviews > > "Skillfully written..refreshing self-directed..procedural guide for using > Tarot cards in counseling..specific guidelines for problem-solving..calls > for Self actualization through a Jungian-Freudian approach to the Tarot, > but also wisely supports your interpretation as the bottom line..suggested > meanings for all 78 cards from multi-dimensional points of view...'Offers > us opportunities to participate in the creation of a new and unpredictable > future.' If you are ready to take the next step in self realization using > the Tarot, this book is a must." > ---EGB, Spirit Matters > > "..interesting, accessible work...especially (for) therapists with a > New-Age orientation...exercises that move systematically to greater and > greater self-awareness...to broaden understanding of the Tarot and its > application to psychology." > ---online New Age Directory-Library > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 03:42:54 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Mike Rael Subject: Re: List Practices_Etiquette In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ellen, If I had a wish for you, it would be that you posted, instead of a brief summary of your book, and a number of reviews (which sounded like the kind of stuff that you find on book jackets...sigh...), why not talk a little about one of thos psycho-spiritual encounters that was particularly intense? Tell us what happened. What the other person learned. What you learned out of the experience. Give us a hint of how you actually did things. Show us the intensity. By all means, use an alias for your client, and mix up gender, geography, all identifying info, any way you like, to preserve confidentiality. The thing is...I want you to talk about *you* in this connection...about how you felt...what happened to you as you helped another... best wishes, Mike Mike Rael, MS, instructional technology lakid@netcom.com listowner, self-esteem-self-help owner, COACHING BY PHONE, the rapid way to raise reality-based self-esteem; for further information, phone (213)660-2545 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 07:56:16 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Re: Relationships Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >.... To update you, I am >writing a book about online relationships, or "Love on the Net" so to speak. >I think it is a very interesting...and timely....subject, and I just happen >to have been caught in one as well. > >Ronni Ronni, Sounds interesting. Will it focus only on romantic relationships, or will it include other *love* or *friendship* relationships that do not include romance? I ask because after I began participating on-line and enjoying the pace/process of dialogue, I took a risk and contacted someone I hadn't spoken with in ten years (we had parted in anger). I had never felt comfortable telephoning, and writing seemed too slow and serious. Email, on the other hand, has allowed a steady non-threatening dialogue to develop --- not earth shaking but a beginning. I think it is chipping away the anger on both sides. Just wondering. Anyone else had a similar experience? Holly _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 06:20:45 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Ronni to Ellen: I For One Want to Hear More About Your Book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ellen: Your book sounds interesting although it is a completely new concept to me. I appreciate your comments on how the internet has affected your outlook -- so true! Re: Mike's note below, I look forward to hearing about some specific ways this works. Ronni >Ellen, > If I had a wish for you, it would be that you posted, instead of >a brief summary of your book, and a number of reviews (which sounded like >the kind of stuff that you find on book jackets...sigh...), why not talk >a little about one of thos psycho-spiritual encounters that was >particularly intense? > Tell us what happened. What the other person learned. What you >learned out of the experience. Give us a hint of how you actually did >things. Show us the intensity. > By all means, use an alias for your client, and mix up gender, >geography, all identifying info, any way you like, to preserve >confidentiality. > The thing is...I want you to talk about *you* in this >connection...about how you felt...what happened to you as you helped >another... > >best wishes, >Mike > > >Mike Rael, MS, instructional technology >lakid@netcom.com >listowner, self-esteem-self-help >owner, COACHING BY PHONE, the rapid way to raise reality-based self-esteem; > for further information, phone (213)660-2545 > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 07:05:17 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: Relationships Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Holly: Thanks for your comment....my book discusses relationships on the whole, whether or not they become romantic, and the possible reasons behind the whole process of "finding" someone. I particularly appreciate your comment on how you happened to contact your friend....that is exactly the feelings I want to explore. I think that Oprah has pretty well taken care of the other side :) If you would like to "tell me your story", please do! But change names, locations, ages, etc.....any identifying factors. I look forward to hearing more...how are you feeling now about your relationship, and is it different than before? Is it changing as you become more comfortable with it? Thanks for sharing. Ronni >Sounds interesting. Will it focus only on romantic relationships, or will >it include other *love* >or *friendship* relationships that do not include romance? > > I ask because after I began participating on-line and enjoying the >pace/process of dialogue, I took a risk and contacted someone I hadn't spoken >with in ten years (we had parted in anger). I had never felt comfortable >telephoning, >and writing seemed too slow and serious. Email, on the other hand, has >allowed a steady >non-threatening dialogue to develop --- not earth shaking but a beginning. >I think it is chipping >away the anger on both sides. > >Just wondering. Anyone else had a similar experience? > >Holly > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 15:59:17 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ellen Uecker Subject: Responses to List Etiquette & Tarot Psychodynamics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" TO: Mike Rael; Ronni; and especially John Pickrell_who took the time to respond to my concerns in great detail with thoughtfulness, honesty, and sensitivity. I appreciate these responses very much..and was pleasantly surprised by the beneficial suggestions which were presented in a positive, non-critical manner. Thank you so much. I do feel I am "among good folk" here. What follows below is an article I just completed for an online self-help magazine...which is a synthesis of several chapters of my book together with other articles I've written on this particular subject. It's the easiest way for me to express some of my philosphy to anyone who might be interested. Its close to 2000 words in length, so if you're not interested...you can just gently place it in the trash. I do plan to share some specific cases and counseling encounters..this will take some thought and careful wording in order to maintain confidentiality. Also, I'm more used to academic-type writing, but I think it will be a good exercise for me to reflect on the specifics of certain therapeutic encounters__from a more emotional perspective. I appreciate being given the challenge and will do my best..just need a little time. THE PSYCHODYNAMICS OF TAROT IMAGERY by Ellen Z. Uecker, OTR When first introduced to Tarot cards, in a parlor game atmosphere, I was immediately impressed by the richness and variety of the symbolism used to illustrate human values, virtues, emotions, predicaments, attitudes, etc. Having over ten years professional experience in mental health at that time, including extensive use of projective testing techniques (to be explained), I quickly became fascinated by the cathartic effect of the Tarot games for those actively participating. The so-called fortunetelling premise appeared to elicit a type of self-evaluation, in terms of the cards chosen to represent various aspects of their life or a specific personal concern...as required by the game format, or spread, as it is called. During this time I was deeply involved in a personal quest for spiritual truth, which included the study of Eastern philosophies and various religious doctrines together with a potpourri of new age concepts. The concept of HIGHER SELF became a point of particular interest to me, since it corresponded so closely with the SELF, as conceptualized by Carl Jung. I began to find that my spiritual journey was crossing paths with my professional career. In my extensive study of the Tarot I came across a book entitled JUNG and TAROT: An Archetypal Journey, by Sallie Nichols, which served to clarify my growing recognition of the psychological significance of the images and archetypal symbols present in Tarot cards. According to Nichols, Jung had specifically acknowledged that the Tarot had its origin in the archetypal images of the collective unconscious. I began to formulate a practical application of these concepts through an integration of the esoteric mysticism inherent in the Tarot with the Analytic Theories of both Jung and Freud. As the development of a practical and structured procedure progressed, I also included certain elements of Reality and Rational Therapy models. The belief that the Tarot works, in the mystical fortunetelling sense, rests on the postulate that we all create our own realities and hence our own destinies...this philosophy similar in many respects to that professed by Reality Therapy proponents. In a traditional Tarot spread, the final outcome card is believed to be mystically determined by all the preceding cards, which represent attitudes, emotions, thoughts, or circumstances surrounding an issue__and already known by the client, at some level of awareness. Therefore, doing a reading is somewhat like feeding all known information into a computer (in this case the subconscious mind) and tabulating or processing the most likely outcome, relative to that information. In a typical Tarot reading, the cards are shuffled and arranged into the proper order without benefit of viewing the face sides...presumably with the assistance of some mystical force interacting with our subconscious mind. This process is similar to Jungian theory carried to a mystical level of practice. While maintaining the basic premise and format of a Tarot reading, I applied the process at a more practical and conscious level, the cards to be chosen and arranged visually__although a precept of the projective technique would include probable subconscious or unconscious responses to certain symbolic illustrations. Projective technique is based on the Freudian-Jungian assumption of subconscious mental activity within an unconscious part of the psyche, where memories and desires are kept hidden__not directly accessible to consciousness because of ego restraints. They believed that the contents of the unconscious may only be brought into consciousness through the removal of these ego defenses. Freud developed his psychoanalytic theory around this premise, using both free association and dream analysis to locate and bring forth material from the unconscious that was believed to influence the conscious behaviors of individuals. Of course Jung further identified what he termed a personal unconscious, as different from what he called the collective unconscious__this latter being evolved through racial experience and thought, more deeply seated than the personal unconscious, and expressed in a universal symbolic language not easily understood by the conscious mind without special study. Modern psychologists often use projective-type tests to facilitate unconscious uncovering__these generally involving the use of pictures or abstract images to elicit expression of unconscious material. One familiar example would be the Rorschach Ink Blot test. Others commonly used are the Thematic Apperception Test, in which the subject is required to interpret a picture by telling a story about it; and the House-Tree-Person, in which the subject draws...then answers questions about each of these. The images found on Tarot cards can be utilized in a similar manner. Sallie Nichols describes Tarot cards as "projection holders...meaning simply that they are hooks to catch the imagination." In the science of psychology, projection is an unconscious defense mechanism whereby we see our own characteristics and tendencies not in ourselves, but rather in the people and events in our environment. Sallie Nichols suggests that "by viewing the images that we cast onto outer reality as mirror reflections of inner reality, we come to know ourselves...by confronting the archetypes and freeing oneself somewhat from their compulsion, one becomes increasingly able to respond to life in an individual way..." or in terms of Jung's individuation process. The word "archetypes" here refers to unconscious ideals which we unconsciously project onto, or assign to, our significant others. According to Jung, human beings tend to respond to others in terms of archetypal images which emerge from the collective unconscious, and have the effect of setting our conscious expectations of those close to us. When someone does not meet our ideal image of him or her, serious conflict can arise. If we can become aware of which unconscious archetypal ideals we have assigned to others, then we will be better equipped to comprehend and subsequently adjust our conscious responses. Tarot card images can be effective in eliciting conscious intuitions that effect changes in our inner images__which then serve to facilitate changes in overt behavior. These changes then result in new responses from people and situations around us. The Tarot used in this particular way does not attempt to predict the future, but rather allows the individual to take an active role in the creation of a new and transformed future...in the transcendence of their conscious ego for the purpose of achieving wholeness or complete awareness of SELF, as defined by Jung...and ultimately in their HIGHER SELF actualization. Very differently from his colleague Freud, Jung placed strong emphasis upon spiritual values, and believed that the yearning to understand the meaning of existence and purpose was the most basic of human instinctual drives...as witnessed in the primordial images of the collective or racial unconscious, and as represented in ancient mythologies and almost every religion. The current cultural emphasis on immediate gratification and material success would seem to deny this basic inner need...and when this occurs, an attempt to compensate results in maladaptive behaviors and social decay. We can witness this through epidemics of crime and drug addiction. According to Jung, "the unconscious and the conscious exist in a profound state of interdependence of each other and the well-being of one is impossible without the well-being of the other." This would indicate that sick behavior on the conscious level is mirrored by a sick unconscious. In our search for well-being there is a tendency to search outside ourselves for answers. We are bombarded with media information and popular opinion that cannot be effectively integrated, resulting in a sense of alienation and hopelessness in many. Our inability to resolve epidemic social problems also results in generalized feelings of impotence. Dynamic evolution and cultural growth will occur only when individuals evolve through inner growth...that can be achieved through a step-by-step procedure similar to Jung's individuation process and transcendent function. If individuals achieve HIGHER SELF awareness and guidance, then society will begin to heal. For Jung, SELF-awareness represented the fullest development of personality that had to be achieved through a deliberate process which ultimately resulted in changing the center of personality from the conscious ego to a point midway between the conscious and the unconscious. It replaced or took precedence over the more primitive ego. The process required the individual to experience each of the different personality components separately, including persona or social masks/roles; anima or the feminine aspect in the unconscious of males; and animus or the masculine aspect in the unconscious of females. This differentiation of personality components, or the individuation process, was facilitated by regression or withdrawal of one's focus from outer world awareness to the unconscious__for the purpose of accessing components of the personal and collective unconscious. Symbols were emphasized as being the key to unlocking the unconscious...to locating and identifying these components. Once the individuation process was complete, an integration of all components was needed to create a new unity of SELF. This integration was called the transcendent function...or in other words, the individual transcends ego and becomes whole. Actualization of the SELF included use of the constructive or Higher Self aspects of knowledge gleaned from the unconscious__as well as control of the darker or shadow aspects of this awareness. If we accept Jungian Analytic Theory as valid, then the open but structured interplay between the conscious ego and the unconscious offers many possibilities for growth and change in all aspects of our daily lives. Although the knowledge and insight stored in the unconscious regions of the mind may be considerable, it is generally not available to most of us in our daily decision making and problem solving efforts. Modern psychology accepts that effective problem identification and solution often cannot begin until discovery of the underlying basis of the externalized aspects__these being often only a manifestation of the real problem. Once we develop the ability to discover answers and truths within ourselves, we no longer feel compelled to search for direction and purpose from outside sources. In my book, TAROT LOOKING GLASS_The Psychodynamics of Tarot Imagery: A Practitioners Guide, I have outlined a well-structured procedure that integrates primary aspects of Jungian and Freudian Analytic theory with the mystical wisdom and practice of traditional Tarot. There are specific exercises which assist the individual in defining their Self, in terms of the conscious ego or "I Am", relative to the real world; the Ideal conscious self, relative to the real world; the id or instinctive Lower Self, corresponding to Jung's shadow where conflicts arise; and the superego or Higher Self consciousness, corresponding to Jung's Transcended Self_where ideals become manifest. Other exercises help the individual to understand important relationships in terms of actual perceptions as well as unconscious ideal expectations__then examining any conflicts between actual and ideal images. There are several exercises that approach daily life problem solving and goal planning from various levels of complexity__all helping the individual to analyze a problem by: organizing conscious aspects; discovering unconscious aspects; determining which aspects are unchangeable and which are accessible to change; and determining solutions and plans of action to foster growth in problem areas_or for specific goal attainment. Some case studies are included to illustrate the application and results of these methods. Separate appendices provide suggested interpretations/indications for all 78 cards and corresponding to each exercise. These meanings are more reflective of the collective unconscious, derived through an integration of psychological theory and universal archetypes. Individuals are required to create a journal of their own impressions of each card, representing data from the personal unconscious. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 15:06:22 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Mike Rael Subject: Re: Responses to List Etiquette & Tarot Psychodynamics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ellen, I just had occasion to check out the Electric Library ( a collection of about 1500 periodicals) to learn about Jungian archetypes. Your article easily is more interesting and comprehensive than *any* of the journal articles actually published!! best regards, Mike Mike Rael, MS, instructional technology lakid@netcom.com listowner, self-esteem-self-help owner, COACHING BY PHONE, the rapid way to raise reality-based self-esteem; for further information, phone (213)660-2545 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 07:29:17 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Don Corriveau Subject: Re: P-M: Doing well in today's market Comments: To: psy-media@freud.apa.org, Clinical-Psychologists@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, PSYCHOEDUCATIONAL_ASSESS@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU, CLINICAL-PSYCHOLOGISTS@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, psy-media@listp.apa.org, psycho-pharm@PsyCom.Net, psychoanalytic-studies@sheffield.ac.uk, PSYCHNEWS@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, PSYBUS@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, ASSESS-P@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, NETPSY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, PSYCH-CI@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, COMMUNITY-PSYCHOLOGY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John, Regarding your message quoted below: I know what you mean. You might be aware that I am a WebEd developer. WebEd is geared exclusively to offering Continuing Educational experiences for professionals to maintain their licenses. We clearly have NO intention of offering degree courses. Our strength is that we have been able to recruit faculty from an international academic and professional base. Thus, as a specific world wide entity, we will be able to recruit experts from many fields who are interesting in sharing their expertise with fellow professionals. If we were tied to a single University, our autonomy and comprehensiveness would be compromised. The point that I wanted to resonate is that, since we have recently announced our existence, I've received many Email messages requesting degree options or at least degree courses. Our response was that we will not be doing so. The main point is that there seems to be many people who perceive the convenience of Internet learning. The ability to study from home without giving up one's job or needing to relocate geographically is a handsome advantage. We hope that professionals will realize the same advantages when it comes to their own continuing educational experiences. WebEd will allow professionals to work from their home or office without having to travel or take time out of work. Clearly, I agree that Internet Learning has some limitations. It also offers limitless advantages in the proper context. Don Corriveau, Ph.D. Provost, WebEd dr-c@ceus.com http://ceus.com At 12:36 AM 12/13/96 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 96-12-11 21:51:17 EST, moffitt@gnatnet.net (BRYAN MOFFITT) >writes: > >> Do you offer any doctoral degrees over the web? I would >> be interested in pursuing a doctorate that leads to a >> psychologist's license if you are planning on having >> that available. Traditional schools are not in touch with >> what goes on in the real world and many degrees that >> are offered are worthless because they are not tailor made >> to fit the student's needs in combination with the requirements >> set forth by state licensure boards, etc.. Most people can >> not afford to go to school as their full-time endeavor. If >> your school is accessible, student-friendly, affordable, >> and their are enough courses to give the students options >> to how they can get out quickly then your school will thrive >> in today's market. Please let me know if any of these >> education options are possible within your organization. >> > >I am waiting for a neurosurgical degree over the Web. I have found the time >required by traditional medical programs much to long to suit my needs to get >out and make a living, the prices too high, and I can not afford to spend >full-time studying the subject. Preferably I would like to spend no more than >3-4 months (although if forced to I could spend 6 months), but I would like >to be sure the program will qualify me for licensure as an MD. > >I think that given the fact I only want to operate on brains I shouldn't need >to have to learn all that unrelated material deaing with hearts, feet, etc. >In fact, I would be willing to pay a small premium if I could just "test out" >of the majority of the requirements. Anyone offering this kind of program >will probably also do very well in today's market and be able to provide >practitioners who can afford to work within the managed care environment. > >With tongue lodged in cheek, > > John M. Roraback, Ph.D. > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:41:30 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: P-M: Doing well in today's market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Given the level of competance I've seen from people that have graduated from traditional colleges.. I don't believe that the Internet could do any worse. If you are really interested, Harriot/Watt has advanced degree programs. Send an EMail to EUNSteve@aol.com, as he was a representative of their program the last that I checked.. Tongue not in cheek, Wilbur At 07:29 AM 12/13/96 -0500, you wrote: >John, > >Regarding your message quoted below: > >I know what you mean. You might be aware that I am a > WebEd developer. WebEd is geared exclusively to offering >Continuing Educational experiences for professionals to maintain >their licenses. We clearly have NO intention of offering >degree courses. > >Our strength is that we have been able to recruit faculty from an >international academic and professional base. Thus, as a specific >world wide entity, we will be able to recruit experts from many >fields who are interesting in sharing their expertise with fellow >professionals. If we were tied to a single University, our autonomy >and comprehensiveness would be compromised. > >The point that I wanted to resonate is that, since we have recently >announced our existence, I've received many Email messages >requesting degree options or at least degree courses. Our >response was that we will not be doing so. > >The main point is that there seems to be many people >who perceive the convenience of Internet learning. The ability >to study from home without giving up one's job or needing to >relocate geographically is a handsome advantage. We hope >that professionals will realize the same advantages when it comes >to their own continuing educational experiences. WebEd will >allow professionals to work from their home or office without >having to travel or take time out of work. > >Clearly, I agree that Internet Learning has some limitations. It also >offers limitless advantages in the proper context. > >Don Corriveau, Ph.D. >Provost, WebEd >dr-c@ceus.com http://ceus.com > > >At 12:36 AM 12/13/96 -0500, you wrote: >>In a message dated 96-12-11 21:51:17 EST, moffitt@gnatnet.net (BRYAN MOFFITT) >>writes: >> >>> Do you offer any doctoral degrees over the web? I would >>> be interested in pursuing a doctorate that leads to a >>> psychologist's license if you are planning on having >>> that available. Traditional schools are not in touch with >>> what goes on in the real world and many degrees that >>> are offered are worthless because they are not tailor made >>> to fit the student's needs in combination with the requirements >>> set forth by state licensure boards, etc.. Most people can >>> not afford to go to school as their full-time endeavor. If >>> your school is accessible, student-friendly, affordable, >>> and their are enough courses to give the students options >>> to how they can get out quickly then your school will thrive >>> in today's market. Please let me know if any of these >>> education options are possible within your organization. >>> >> >>I am waiting for a neurosurgical degree over the Web. I have found the time >>required by traditional medical programs much to long to suit my needs to get >>out and make a living, the prices too high, and I can not afford to spend >>full-time studying the subject. Preferably I would like to spend no more than >>3-4 months (although if forced to I could spend 6 months), but I would like >>to be sure the program will qualify me for licensure as an MD. >> >>I think that given the fact I only want to operate on brains I shouldn't need >>to have to learn all that unrelated material deaing with hearts, feet, etc. >>In fact, I would be willing to pay a small premium if I could just "test out" >>of the majority of the requirements. Anyone offering this kind of program >>will probably also do very well in today's market and be able to provide >>practitioners who can afford to work within the managed care environment. >> >>With tongue lodged in cheek, >> >> John M. Roraback, Ph.D. >> >> >> >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:21:48 -0500 Reply-To: kaisan@pris.bc.ca Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kaisa Subject: Re: P-M: Doing well in today's market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wilbur wrote: >>Given the level of competance I've seen from people that have graduated from traditional colleges.. I don't believe that the Internet could do any worse.<< I totally agree based on my experience as a lifelong professional student as well as several years as a college instructor!! >>If you are really interested, Harriot/Watt has advanced degree programs. Send an EMail to EUNSteve@aol.com, as he was a representative of their program the last that I checked..<< I have been doing Interdisciplinary PhD studies as a distance education student at the California Institute of Integral Studies for two and a half years. For two years our CIIS courses were held at AOL's EUN (ElectronicUniversityNetwork), but we have now moved to the internet at the MetaNetwork site. In my particular programme we have met twice during the summer as a cohort. I chose CIIS because they offered programmes which were not available in the traditional universities close to where I lived. I have also been able to move around Canada and continue my studies no matter where I ended up living. Now I'm in the boonies of northern BC, at the beginning of the Alaska Highway, further north and more isolated than even Robert de Cyberie in Saskatchewan! The internet is certainly my lifeline to the world. My online studies have been incredible. I am not an isolated student plugging away alone as is often the case in distance education programmes. I have had to interact and share in a group more than I did in my traditional EdD programme I'd started in Toronto years ago. One of the benefits of the online environment for me is how it suits my reflective nature. I like not being put on the spot to make my contribution as I would be in a REAL seminar. In an asynchronous online environment, I have time to ponder my responses before sharing my ideas with my fellow students. Furthermore, I can't just nod my head shyly and smile sweetly, I actually have to share my thoughts! I know of many Canadians who give those knowing looks when they hear about some of the American learning institutes. Yet, when I compare the two programmes I've been involved with, I think the academic scholarship is at least as high at CIIS (which is an accredited institute with WASC). Furthermore, my experience at CIIS has definitely been personally transformative and meaningful in ways my traditional programme could never be. Moreover, at CIIS Jung and spirituality are not anathemas like they were at the colleges where I taught. So in conclusion, there are wonderful learning possiblities on the Net, informal ones like this mailing list and formal ones like the colleges/universities. :-) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 00:47:37 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Soul or Selling of Soul? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At http://www.adage.com:80/interactive/articles/19961204/article1.html is: =46irefly touts targeting solution=20 by Debra Aho Williamson=20 In a major step forward for personalizing the Web, several measurement and ad management companies have agreed to support a standard way of delivering targeted advertising and information. Web measurement companies Internet Profiles Corp. and Accrue and ad management companies NetGravity and RealMedia will use intelligent agent software from Firefly Network to deliver personalized advertising and Web traffic reporting solutions. Participating sites will use Firefly's Passport software to register visitors and build individual profiles based on visitors' activity on a site. Other Passport-enabled sites will be able to recognize users with Passports and offer them customized information and personalized ads. Yahoo!, Reuters and Ziff-Davis Publishing Co.'s ZD Net have been testing the technology. "Where I believe 1997 is going to take us is to more highly targeted advertising--getting closer to one-to-one advertising," said John Danner, president of NetGravity. Marketers and publishers are only now realizing the potential for targeting via the Web. Services like DoubleClick offer targeted ads based on domain name, time of day and browser type, but the Firefly system, which the company has tested on its own music and movies site for several months, can target by personal interests as well. =46irefly users provide basic demographic information, such as age, gender, ZIP code and e-mail address. As they traverse a site, entering different content areas and rating their interests, that information is added to a user profile. By making the technology available via license to other Web sites, Firefly will enable users to create profiles that carry over from site to site. Copyright December 1996, Crain Communications Inc.=20 =20 Get the whole picture. Subscribe to Advertising Age. Site Design and Administration by i33 communications Info: webinfo@adage.com =A9 Crain Communications Inc. =20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 01:03:21 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Soul or selling soul? HooN's question. Sociometry is a natural devopment on the web -- they are developing delivery of ads using the methods! I would like to reiterate the value of reading MarK Pesce on the question of the struggle between good and evil in all of this. See especially his paper "Interfaces to the Sublime" http://www.hyperreal.com/~mpesce/deaf.html To quote: McLuhan hastens to point out that this collection of consciousness, long sought-after by advertisers, may not amount to a good thing. The matter is left to us to create a form of connection which preserves the self against the pressures of forces which would seek to dominate it. The sacred provides some defense against domination; it can create the place where the individual exists in communion with a greater whole. =20 end quote walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 20:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, The McLuhan quote is great! It really got me putting the various threads of this listserv to work, seeing how they are related. Somehow, I think the discussions about Jung and synchronicity and Tarot and chaos/order all have a space in here --- not just in discussing what is happening on/in/because of the web, but also what is the *potential* of the web --- what can we make it, what we can/should avoid. I particularly like the way McLuhan explains why some of the recent developments (like Firefly) sound great, but give my conscience (conscious) a slight twinge. How do we strike the balance? How do we embrace technology for what it can give us without surrendering ourselves? Do we need to realize a techno/psychological declaration of independence -- some form of checks and balances as these products develop. What will happen if we are not conscious of the decisions technology makes/ will make for us? I am reminded of a thread from several months ago,...the politics of occupation .... and also think about the effects of television on our current generation.... Just random thoughts. Holly Soul or selling soul? > >HooN's question. > >Sociometry is a natural devopment on the web -- they are >developing delivery of ads using the methods! > >I would like to reiterate the value of reading MarK Pesce on the >question of the struggle between good and evil in all of this. >See especially his paper "Interfaces to the Sublime" > >http://www.hyperreal.com/~mpesce/deaf.html > >To quote: > > >McLuhan hastens to point out that this collection of >consciousness, long sought-after by advertisers, may not amount >to a good thing. The matter is left to us to create a form of >connection which preserves the self against the pressures of >forces which would seek to dominate it. The sacred provides some >defense against domination; it can create the place where the >individual exists in communion with a greater whole. > > >end quote > > >walter > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 02:02:41 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? In-Reply-To: <199612140142.UAA13494@zork.tiac.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Holly, > What will happen if > we are not conscious of the decisions technology makes/ will make for = us? In ffly, there is the conscious need to rate . . . to *choose* to participate in order to get results. =20 They make it look though as if it magically knows your taste . . . it is now *very* accurate in predicting my taste in film. But is is not magic. It simply knows what sociometric group i belong to, with respect to a criteria. It knows who my friends are! =20 =46riends whose names i may not know though in ffly one can find them and relate to them! That aspect (strangly) has not been of as much interest to me as simply getting the film review!=20 If the collective noosphere begins to speak to me, and whispers gaia words to me, who am i to want to disect it into its original cells? =20 Sometimes it is not the technology that is making the decison for us, it is the new "entity" of collective soul mediated by a few switches. =20 The question is still . . . is the medium the message? Are the wires more than the people that communicate throught them? Is our connection here now in asynch time more about our rel to a machine, a medium than to each other? Perhaps! =20 I have my son in the other romm, and I want to say hallo, i have spent too much time here . . . w _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 21:32:13 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter: >To quote: > > >McLuhan hastens to point out that this collection of >consciousness, long sought-after by advertisers, may not amount >to a good thing. The matter is left to us to create a form of >connection which preserves the self against the pressures of >forces which would seek to dominate it. The sacred provides some >defense against domination; it can create the place where the >individual exists in communion with a greater whole. >end quote The quote is great, and this entire topic that you're raising strikes at a very sensitive place with me. I want to keep my individuality and maintain my freedom while I enjoy using the new technology. I don't want BIG BROTHER looking over my shoulder and interfering in things that I want to keep private. I don't want my choices taken away from me. How do we strike the balance is the question for me? I certainly don't want someone building a profile on me without my being aware of it (although I realize that this already happens to some extent). I don't want to *feel* like I've lost some more control over *my* life. I want some reassurances that things won't get too out of hand. I'm someone that once they learned about the setting of cookies by some internet users on my hard drive, I changed my browser to inform me before some site set a cookie so the option would be mine if I wanted to allow it or not. Back in the water with some random feelings. Janell > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 22:53:28 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? In-Reply-To: <32bd03c2.412550501@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, All, Oddly but not really oddly ;-), both Excite Live and Firefly are not anywhere near robust enough to get at a compelling heuristic which would point me in either textual or musical directions that might prove rewarding. In fact I've given up on Firefly which, despite the ever-increasing nature of its sociometric data has not enough of what you term 'my friends' to make for the 'difference that makes a difference'. The point with Firefly is that it probably cannot get at an apt matrix for my *anticipated* musical tastes along the lines of similarity. And dissimilarity is a metric of another order, both in terms of a given data sense and certainly as such data may be technically considered. Whereas Excite Live just seems hopelessly muddled combined with being somewhat threadbare in the resource department. In both cases I don't find the agents intelligent; in fact, with all the clues the agents have I would have thought their actions wouldn't be so clueless. One person's experience...on a work in progress. HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 07:54:22 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HooN, > Whereas Excite Live just seems hopelessly muddled combined with being > somewhat threadbare in the resource department. In the last 30 seconds i went to Excites News tracker, and typed in a string of words related to the theme we are on here, and called the topic: Individuality In the Noosphere. It came up with some articles I had already seen, and also this: http://www.forbes.com:80/asap/120296/html/thomas_moore.htm To quote: Personally, I've decided that the best way I can survive as a human being in this high tech era is to take the little from it that I need and for the rest become a foolish anachronism. I don't believe that the Internet or the World Wide Web is going to make us a global community, because communities rise from the heart, not from the mind. Except for desperate excursions into therapy, we've abandoned the heart, giving it attention only when it complains. End quote It is a short article with more in this vein. =20 I don't like what he says, does he think his books are more soulful? As one to many instruments, because they are *manufactured* items? This was fresh? http://outside.starwave.com:80/magazine/1296/9612fenatu.html There was heaps more, references to some pretty savvy writers on the Psybernet -- soul in Cyberspace theme . . . It has not taken me to new heights or insights, but i also see this as just the beginning . . . very new, and a step towards something, something worth watching as it comes. =20 Worth noting that these results were using concepts, not my sociometric links. It is the effective adding of that dimension: IE where i could say find me anything that Hoon found 6:6 interesting on this theme in the last year. (with your permission of course . . . and with the subsequent feedback on our mutual tele -- to use the jargon word).=20 =20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 11:57:25 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DoubleClick.com has been doing this for quite a while. If you check out the cookies of your browser you will probably find a link. The cookies can be found in the cookies.* file that is typically in the program directory for netscape. Wilbur At 12:47 AM 12/14/96 GMT, you wrote: >At > >http://www.adage.com:80/interactive/articles/19961204/article1.html > >is: > > >Firefly touts targeting solution=20 > >by Debra Aho Williamson=20 > >In a major step forward for personalizing the Web, several >measurement and ad management companies have >agreed to support a standard way of delivering targeted >advertising and information. > >Web measurement companies Internet Profiles Corp. and >Accrue and ad management companies NetGravity and >RealMedia will use intelligent agent software from Firefly >Network to deliver personalized advertising and Web >traffic reporting solutions. > >Participating sites will use Firefly's Passport software to >register visitors and build individual profiles based on >visitors' activity on a site. Other Passport-enabled sites >will be able to recognize users with Passports and offer >them customized information and personalized ads. > >Yahoo!, Reuters and Ziff-Davis Publishing Co.'s ZD Net >have been testing the technology. > >"Where I believe 1997 is going to take us is to more highly >targeted advertising--getting closer to one-to-one >advertising," said John Danner, president of NetGravity. > >Marketers and publishers are only now realizing the >potential for targeting via the Web. Services like >DoubleClick offer targeted ads based on domain name, >time of day and browser type, but the Firefly system, which >the company has tested on its own music and movies site >for several months, can target by personal interests as >well. > >Firefly users provide basic demographic information, such >as age, gender, ZIP code and e-mail address. As they >traverse a site, entering different content areas and rating >their interests, that information is added to a user profile. > >By making the technology available via license to other >Web sites, Firefly will enable users to create profiles that >carry over from site to site. > >Copyright December 1996, Crain Communications >Inc.=20 > > > > =20 > > > > Get the whole picture. Subscribe to Advertising Age. > Site Design and Administration by i33 communications > Info: webinfo@adage.com =A9 Crain Communications Inc. > =20 > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 12:16:47 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, >McLuhan hastens to point out that this collection of >consciousness, long sought-after by advertisers, may not amount >to a good thing. The matter is left to us to create a form of >connection which preserves the self against the pressures of >forces which would seek to dominate it. The sacred provides some >defense against domination; it can create the place where the >individual exists in communion with a greater whole. What is sacred is typically what is thought to bring the whole together. Individualality is not preserved in what is sacred. If you check out the Seven Deadly Sins, (at least what I've been able to find on the Web), it appears that what are considered sins are those things that go toward individuality. Religion typically has little or nothing to do with what is good for the individual. Religion exists because of carrying of shared ideas, which is a group mechanism, not an individual one. The religions of the world have typically done nothing to provide a sancuary against domination. Wilbur _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 12:25:13 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Steve, I'm glad to see that the public at large is able to tell the difference betweeen the marketing use of words and the realities. Intelligent agent's aren't intelligent. They also are pretty poor vehicles for most of the tasks that we write software for. Wilbur _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 12:55:07 -0500 Reply-To: kaisan@pris.bc.ca Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kaisa Subject: Re: Relationships MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know various people, here and other lists, have been discussing Internet Addiction and relationships. Might some of the so-called addictive behaviour on the net be more accurately described under the heading of love or sex addiction which finds expression on the Net? I know a Seattle therapist who described the net as a "playground for sex addicts". From my two years of wandering in the chatrooms on aol and the ircs on the net, I would tend to agree with him. I have my reservations again, about labelling everything an addiction; however, when the time (and money!) spent pursuing online relationships with or without cybersex, seems to be out of balance, to be an obsession, a problem as determined by the person, then perhaps it could be labelled an addiction. Of course all the time I spent online was in the name of research ;-) Yes, I am a graduate student who was exploring the possibility of studying online interactions and personal transformation. Also, has anyone studied abusive relationships online? Don't scoff at the idea. I managed to get entangled in a verbally abusive relationship on the net -- and of course, stayed in it all in the name of research and personal growth!! In my job, I work with a troubled teen who is verbally abusive as described in a book by Patricia Evans. I was experiencing the putdowns, the countering, the non-jokes, the trivializing etc. all online just as I was dealing with it in person with my client. Handling it online was an incredible challenge and call to growth and learning. At one level I could be a relatively detached observer, while on another level I was totally enmeshed in what was happening. While, the mind games were initially challenging, I did notice the detrimental effects it was having on my heart and soul. In spite of all my knowledge, training and past experience, I was still hooked and found it very hard to leave this online "relationship". Whether, I'd call it an addiction or not, it definitely was a sign of dis-ease within me and a call to healing. So if anyone knows of others in similar abusive online situations or has some thoughts to offer on this, I'd be very interested in getting your feedback. Thank you, Kaisa kaisan@pris.bc.ca (for private email messages) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 02:39:14 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ellen Uecker Subject: Re: Responses to List Etiquette & Tarot Psychodynamics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Ellen, > I just had occasion to check out the Electric Library ( a >collection of about 1500 periodicals) to learn about Jungian archetypes. >Your article easily is more interesting and comprehensive than *any* of >the journal articles actually published!! > >best regards, >Mike > >Mike Rael, MS, instructional technology >lakid@netcom.com >listowner, self-esteem-self-help >owner, COACHING BY PHONE, the rapid way to raise reality-based > self-esteem; for further information, phone (213)660-2545 > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L Mike, Thank you for your comments..it's gratifying to hear that I have communicated my ideas effectively enough to pique your interest in Jungian theory and archetypes. Ellen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 10:36:09 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: Relationships Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It is a difficult business . . . even now in this group, what do >you make of the silence to your request about discussion of >online relationship? > >I sense deep fear . . . yet that *might* just be a projection! > > >Walter > Hmmm Walter.... I feel ignored, and at the same time I realize there is simply a disinterest on everyone else's part. I think it is a matter of just not having anything in common with others on this list. Ronni >PS, nothing wrong with fear . . . has helped many avoid a bad >crash! > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ >Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz >http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 18:55:14 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wilbur, While I agree that many religions have had the effect you describe, >The religions of the world have typically done nothing to provide a sancuary >against domination. and that many of the teachings of major religions lead to a higher good for the whole rather than merely the individual, I *disagree* that these two possibilities require the subjugation of the individual will. IMHO collective good is a product of free will, not a cookie cutter recipe and total obedience. Each person still must seek what McLuhan describes as >connection which preserves the self against the pressures of >>forces which would seek to dominate it. The sacred provides some >>defense against domination; it can create the place where the >>individual exists in communion with a greater whole. A bit like fire.....! Perhaps the sacred occurs when individuals connect, of free will, together for common good. Would we see the same effect if people came together for, say, and advertising campaign? (I ask because I really don't know....just throwing this out here....) Holly _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 20:32:12 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:55 PM 12/15/96 -0500, you wrote: >While I agree that many religions have had the effect you describe, > >>The religions of the world have typically done nothing to provide a sancuary >>against domination. > >and that many of the teachings of major religions lead to a higher good for >the whole rather than merely the individual, I *disagree* that these two >possibilities require the subjugation of the individual will. I don't know about you, but I've been yelled at in Church when I didn't agree specifically with the basic premises that they held sacred. >IMHO collective good is a product of free will, not a cookie cutter recipe >and total obedience. >Each person still must seek what McLuhan describes as > >>connection which preserves the self against the pressures of >>>forces which would seek to dominate it. The sacred provides some >>>defense against domination; it can create the place where the >>>individual exists in communion with a greater whole. > >A bit like fire.....! The individual exists independently of the greater whole.. >Perhaps the sacred occurs when individuals connect, of free will, together >for common good. There is no such thing as the "common good". You can't treat everyone as if they are the same, they aren't. What is considered good in one society isn't good in another. You can't decide what is good for me any more than I can decide what is good for you. Society at large can't decide what is good for me. Only I can decide that, and that has nothing to do with connection, it has to do with my own individuality. This attitude is typically condemned as self-righteous.. But I have to have the right to be right inside myself. I don't need to connect with others, I need to be free to be myself. >Would we see the same effect if people came together for, say, and >advertising campaign? (I ask because I really don't know....just throwing >this out here....) Lots of people choose to come together for advertising campaigns.. Our local town is sending out advertisements for a local VISA card. A piece of every dollar that you spend on it goes to helping pay for road improvements and the like. Somehow I can't imagine that this is for the good of my town. I can't imagine that getting a bank involved in our local business, giving them preferencial treatment has anything to do with "What's good for our town.." Wilbur _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 03:27:12 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Relationships In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961215183609.006a9240@proaxis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ronni, > Hmmm Walter.... I feel ignored, and at the same time I realize there is > simply a disinterest on everyone else's part. I think it is a matter = of > just not having anything in common with others on this list. =46or all that there has been some response, some direct and some tangental, i imagine by delving into those responses . . . as you are doing here with me now . . . will lead to a deepening and widening of the thread. If this list is not the right place for the discussion of your book, then something is not right! It is one thing to enter into an online rel, another to talk about it in a public place like this . . .especially in a place where there is some emphasis on experiential sharing. all the best,=20 w _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 22:57:02 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Relationships Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ronni: Please don't feel ignored, with the current holiday season I just have not had time to respond in any way to much that's going on in the list. Hopefully, I will soon, and I am interested in what you wrote. Janell At 03:27 AM 12/16/96 GMT, you wrote: >Ronni, > >> Hmmm Walter.... I feel ignored, and at the same time I realize there is >> simply a disinterest on everyone else's part. I think it is a matter of >> just not having anything in common with others on this list. > > >For all that there has been some response, some direct and some >tangental, i imagine by delving into those responses . . . as you >are doing here with me now . . . will lead to a deepening and >widening of the thread. > >If this list is not the right place for the discussion of your >book, then something is not right! It is one thing to enter into >an online rel, another to talk about it in a public place like >this . . .especially in a place where there is some emphasis on >experiential sharing. > >all the best, > > >w _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 13:52:55 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Relationships All... << >It is a difficult business . . . even now in this group, what do >you make of the silence to your request about discussion of >online relationship? > >I sense deep fear . . . yet that *might* just be a projection! > > >Walter > Hmmm Walter.... I feel ignored, and at the same time I realize there is simply a disinterest on everyone else's part. I think it is a matter of just not having anything in common with others on this list. Ronni >> For me, it is not fear, disinterest, or not having anything in common... some of all of that, and more. The more is that I think every single one of us on line are writing in some form or another our own individual books on on line relationships. Psyber-L is a book in itself, a living thing which has had it's own existence and experential learning. It is after all a living presence which was born and exists only because of on line relationships. My masters research project will center around on line relationships, Ronni... I put that out on Psyber-L a few months back, along with my some of my own experience and an extremely small piece of how it had affected my experential learning. Every person on this List has *individually* experienced on line relationships... which is why I believe that we are all in a sense, writing our own books, defined by our own experiences, each of us the main character in our own story. If our individual stories are to have any cohesion, it contains a personal as well as collective narrative, and you or I as main characters can't jump into the middle of a collective narrative and expect that the entire story begins where we entered. I have extreme doubt that I could convey my personal learning to you and have it accurately and authentically reported and interpreted by you in your book. Your orientation could never reflect mine nor could mine reflect yours, and I think it would be arrogant of either of us to assume we somehow could. So if you write your book, Ronni, I would like to read about your own experience and hopefully say yes, I felt this of what she speaks, or no I didn't experience that at all, remembering that the story has yet to have a happy or sad ending, either in the collective unconsious emerging to consciousness or your individual emerging unconsious to consciousness. Yeah, this is rambling, entirely my own views based on my own experential learning, with a tiny hope in my soul that expressing this will help me out of my own apathy, because my reality says that you may have already left Psyber-L. If you haven't, I hope this doesn't dampen your voice, but the courage to speak is within you alone. Anything is possible in psyberspace, and Psyber-L will continue its narrative whether either of us is here.. life goes on, and it is up to us individually to find our own meaning. Sheryl PS... Walter, I do not envy you your job. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 15:28:42 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: Relationships Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl: I see that I missed the boat by entering this list so "late".....everyone seems to have already discussed their books, so there is obviously no point in bringing it up again. I guess timing is everything, or whatever. Please forget that I ever said anything about writing a book on anything so subjective as relationships! It's back to association management for me.... Ronni At 01:52 PM 12/16/96 -0500, you wrote: >All... > ><< >It is a difficult business . . . even now in this group, what do > >you make of the silence to your request about discussion of > >online relationship? > > > >I sense deep fear . . . yet that *might* just be a projection! > > > > > >Walter > > > > Hmmm Walter.... I feel ignored, and at the same time I realize there is > simply a disinterest on everyone else's part. I think it is a matter of > just not having anything in common with others on this list. > > Ronni >> > >For me, it is not fear, disinterest, or not having anything in common... some >of all of that, and more. The more is that I think every single one of us on >line are writing in some form or another our own individual books on on line >relationships. Psyber-L is a book in itself, a living thing which has had >it's own existence and experential learning. It is after all a living >presence which was born and exists only because of on line relationships. > >My masters research project will center around on line relationships, >Ronni... I put that out on Psyber-L a few months back, along with my some of >my own experience and an extremely small piece of how it had affected my >experential learning. Every person on this List has *individually* >experienced on line relationships... which is why I believe that we are all >in a sense, writing our own books, defined by our own experiences, each of us >the main character in our own story. If our individual stories are to have >any cohesion, it contains a personal as well as collective narrative, and you >or I as main characters can't jump into the middle of a collective narrative >and expect that the entire story begins where we entered. > >I have extreme doubt that I could convey my personal learning to you and have >it accurately and authentically reported and interpreted by you in your book. > Your orientation could never reflect mine nor could mine reflect yours, and >I think it would be arrogant of either of us to assume we somehow could. > >So if you write your book, Ronni, I would like to read about your own >experience and hopefully say yes, I felt this of what she speaks, or no I >didn't experience that at all, remembering that the story has yet to have a >happy or sad ending, either in the collective unconsious emerging to >consciousness or your individual emerging unconsious to consciousness. > >Yeah, this is rambling, entirely my own views based on my own experential >learning, with a tiny hope in my soul that expressing this will help me out >of my own apathy, because my reality says that you may have already left >Psyber-L. If you haven't, I hope this doesn't dampen your voice, but the >courage to speak is within you alone. > >Anything is possible in psyberspace, and Psyber-L will continue its narrative >whether either of us is here.. life goes on, and it is up to us individually >to find our own meaning. > >Sheryl > >PS... Walter, I do not envy you your job. > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 23:57:18 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Soul or Selling of Soul? In-Reply-To: <32bf4e93.431706424@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter quotes from Thomas Moore, and I snip: >the Internet >or the World Wide Web is going to make >us a global community, because >communities rise from the heart, not from >the mind. > There does seem to be a polarization going on between the old school for which soulfullness must be embodied to be mature and the so-called point omega of the 'networked' intelligence a.o. spirit a.o soul a.o. eternal child. The medium is not the message on onehand... *** This very much dovetails with another cross that we might also bear! The exoteric social religion(s) aside, there is also the _finally_ completely impersonal stations that are the prospective objective of the esoteric yoga(s) of the various religions and their inner traditions. Well, you don't have to like it! :-) *** To get out of the body is a central question with respect to a depth-psychological view of individuation be it along the contours of serpentine or spiral progress or the almost literal and existential binary "living today quite perished tomorrow", or when have you. Inevitable corporeal deterioration is the sine qua non of the context of an eros infused wonderment at the value _to our becoming_ of our physical decline. This, of course, is a gray area for the response is ideally high awareness, courageous, imaginative, and a redoubling of our commitment to what our energy wishes us to express as the highest manifestation of our self, Self, or in Jung's simpler conception, "personality". It is acceptance not denial. Individualists take note: some say it is surrender, submission. Yet, it is grayed by the reality of time and matter and space, our final attribution utterly impersonal, nonetheless divinely so... The other side of our incarnation, then, is our dis-incarnation and not at all surprisingly the image of this *fact* is carried behind us in a black bag. In this bag are the images of illness, and *falling a-part* and ageing, and wrinkles and weakness, and aches, and medicines, and pain and all the fading away. Perhaps this is more a Western preoccupation. Certainly in the extroverted culture of the 'America' it comes out collectively as the worship of youth, the ideal of *fit-ness* and the many paradoxes of mid-life expressed on one side as biology and on the other side as "is this all there is?" *** But, physical deterioration is all there is on the base level of matter. *** Moore sounds echoes that are perennial. We've at times got at the same ideas. I'm reminded of Charles's image of walking upon the cliff's edge on a stormy night. The educated heart takes the measure of mortality and by doing so is able to more ably incarnate the natural awareness, its 'nobility'. This measure is not either the quantitative evaluation or the so-called neural or other, net. :-) Some have suggested it is instinct raised to art, but I would myself choose to wonder if it is rather a life grown into an essence itself imperishable, through the vehicle of *body*, itself preyed upon by time, gravity, the viscistudes of being an 'open system', imperfect yes, but perfectly so! *** Then there is the internet; our body may disappear, it disappears. The fantasy grows: sans body we become transmogrified through the net, network, 'extropiated', virtualized, re-collected. !!! Eternalized too; an obvious inflation albeit charged by the disembodied spirit; numinous...but not poetic, not non-linear even, but, rather, more like a circuit. *** Moore's point stands with me. The question might be put this way: How might computer mediated communication bear upon the soul's quest? It is a trick question of course for it is only what the ego is unable to reveal or admit to which can possibly answer the question with veracity. *** We might also speculate on how body mediated communication bears upon the imaginal. And that's not a trick question! HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 11:25:14 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: WFSchmidt <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Multiple recipients Hi, HooN:>But, physical deterioration is all there is on the base level of matter.< On a certain elementary level all matter is composed of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Protons are thought of having a lifetime with respect to decay (detoriation) of >> 10 power of 30 y. This means the protons making up your body have been many time in other living or dead objects. Although over the centuries philosophy has been divided into materialists and idealists the question if spirit or mind can exist without matter remains unresolved. ------ >Then there is the internet; our body may disappear, it disappears. The fantasy grows: sans body we become transmogrified through the net, network, 'extropiated', virtualized, re-collected.< The INTERNET or on-line communication can exist by wires and power sources, only. In former times, people communicated by paper or even earlier by clay tablets or stones. The leftovers are still there and you can read things which have been written by the Greeks or Romans 2000y ago. Bits and Bytes have a half-life which is measured in seconds. Present day information technology is much more vulnerable to the usual catastrophic events affecting human history Different living organisms in the course of evolution have excelled by developing one organ or more organs of their body to its extreme capacities. The present-day shark has a small brain but powerfull jaws and fins. The human race has the brain as its extreme organ. Dissociation of function and organ results in *mental disorder*. A branch of psychotherapy tries to mend this disorder and reunite body (brain) and mind: The Feldenkrais-method or the method of Bioenergetics (A. Loewen). Children watching too much TV or sitting in front of their PC-monitors are asked to go outside and feel the breeze of cool fresh air, of hearing birds sing, or feel the wettness of water, all things which you cannot transmit via the internet. You can just recall memmories stored of previous experience. ------ >Walter quotes from Thomas Moore, and I snip: >the Internet >or the World Wide Web is going to make >us a global community, because >communities rise from the heart, not from >the mind.<< A failure of relationship is often attributed to the fact that the chemistry was not right. *I cannot stomach this guy* is another expression pointing to the importance non-verbal communication and perception by the various senses. ------ Well I just throw in this one, too: There is all this discussion about search programmes as if there were hidden treasures in the INTERNET. Collaborative filtering should give you the mental food you are to desire. Well as in food preparation you can either eat effortless fast food from the chain, or you can prepare your own dinner from recipies encorporating the selection of raw materiel and spending an hour or two in preparation and cooking. What you get out of the INTERNET depends on the effort you put in. Best wishes to all, FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 11:30:48 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: Re: Relationships In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961216232842.0069e85c@proaxis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Ronni--In this posting, you sound hurt and petulant. This is sad especially given that I think you misunderstood what Sheryl was sharing from her own perspective. We do each have on-line relationships here--with one another on this list if not with other folk individually out there in cyberspace. And, for at least a small group of us here, we have experienced considerable pain in the growth and development of on-line relationships with one another. Such experience may make some folk more reluctant to discuss this topic, which may account in part for the lack of response. In addition, there seems to be a lull amongst us now anyway -- for a variety of reasons which may have as much to do with "real life" (i.e. non-cyberspace demands) as it has to do with interest in your project (for myself, I'm in finals week of an overly demanding semester in which I discovered that getting all of my students on-line might be the death of me!). Perhaps some of your hurt may be soothed by some perspective-taking -- looking at what other motives might cause the actions here in this space assuming that others are not ignoring or rebuffing you. In terms of looking at researching your book, Sheryl was saying, I think, to begin with what you know best--yourself. Her perspective presents a very valid approach to research--seeing what is within and communicating it without, making it accessible for others to use in interpreting their own experiences. This isn't however the only approach to such research -- and gathering the experiences of others, searching for patterns to organize the unique experiences, finding the threads which run through them, is also valid, appropriate, and interesting. What Sheryl seems to communicate most deeply is that what folks on this list (if I may be so bold based on a year's experience) tend to value most is your sharing of you -- rather than your coming in to study us. You are very likely to find out about us in the process, but vulnerability is a two-way street. You haven't missed the boat (it's always in the process of sailing around here, coming back to shore regularly even with grand excursions into the uncharted zones)--perhaps it is more an issue of choosing to board the boat that's here. You are indeed welcome aboard. Susan (Greetings to Walter and others-- esp. Marie, Laurel and Robert, if you are still here. I've been listening all along, keeping in touch from a distance while swamped with rl [that and I keep hoping this PWP thing will vanish :-) leaving no trace beyond the continued presence of the wonderful folk who have joined in the past few months...alas, we can't have all we want in life and I'm patient. I've done my own perspective taking on that issue.] _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:58:36 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: Relationships Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > What Sheryl seems to >communicate most deeply is that what folks on this list (if I may be so >bold based on a year's experience) tend to value most >is your sharing of you -- rather than your coming in to study us. You are >very likely to find out about us in the process, but vulnerability is a >two-way street. You haven't missed the boat (it's always in the process >of sailing around here, coming back to shore regularly even with grand >excursions into the uncharted zones)--perhaps it is more an issue of >choosing to board the boat that's here. You are indeed welcome aboard. > > Susan > Thanks for your interest, Susan. But I repeat.....I am sorry I ever mentioned my book!!!!! I believe that Walter asked me about it out of interest, and it has subsequently been blown all out of proportion! I did *NOT* come to this list to "study" you! I mentioned it soley as an interest....one which, by the way, I have abandoned for the time being, based on my experience here.. Having told my story, along with the pain of remembering the experience, I don't see how you can treat so lightly my "sharing of (you)", as you call it....and, I would have thought that would have made my request, if that's what it was, for input from others on this list a little less "clinical". I believe I made myself pretty vulnerable....but then, maybe my dictionary is out of date. (I only have a BS in Communications) Right now I feel that the only way I can continue on this list is to come back under a different name and start all over! But...and here's a tidbit of personal information for all you that are looking for it...I don't feel comfortable unless people know *me*, so I don't use an alias. Thank you for your invitation to join the boat that is here....I thought that I had. I should have just lurked and not said *anything*. Again, I regret that my presence on this list has degenerated into a > >(Greetings to Walter and others-- > esp. Marie, Laurel and Robert, if you are still here. > >I've been listening all along, keeping in >touch from a distance while swamped with rl [that and I keep hoping this >PWP thing will vanish :-) leaving no trace beyond the continued presence >of the wonderful folk who have joined in the past few months...alas, we >can't have all we want in life and I'm patient. I've done my own >perspective taking on that issue.] > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:56:39 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <961217162513_101632.3701_BHG112-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Fritz, You patronize me, (I'm sure I do the same to others,) but, as usual, it is so good natured and erudite and comprehensive or cryptic an informing that I'm, again, amused! And appreciative. >On a certain elementary level all matter is composed of protons, neutrons, and >electrons. (Thanks.) *** I'm not wondering about materialism and idealism; I'm wondering about the body and eros and individuation and CMC. (I think: much more than I can chew!) > >The INTERNET or on-line communication can exist by wires and power sources, >only. But, Fritz we can pause on the near shore of the ocean of reification and think of the internet as a term, a metaphor, a process, and even wonder about it as a signification, all of which might be referenced right back and through the tablets of clay and human agency, sts. Internet is both physical network and behavioral intention; yes? You write: >Dissociation of function and organ results in *mental disorder*. A branch >of >psychotherapy tries to mend this disorder and reunite body (brain) and >mind: Yes. Any further thoughts on this? HooN \\\|/// \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) -------oo00-(_)-00oo--------- | | | Stephen Calhoun | | hoon@apk.net | | http://junior.apk.net/~hoon | | | ----------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 21:20:05 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Relationships Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:58 AM 12/17/96 -0800, you wrote: Hi Ronni: I've been following your conversations with interest and I feel a little sad :( that you feel as you do and I realize I may be mis-perceiving it (I hope I am). I hope you stay. I've found people on the list (especially the women and Walter) very supportive. I seem to be having more difficulty understanding some of the men but then that's nothing new with me. I think you can continue to be yourself and you'll be most welcome. Janell P.S. I didn't say anything on the list for awhile before I decided to venture in the water, and since then I've found it comfortable. > >Thanks for your interest, Susan. But I repeat.....I am sorry I ever >mentioned my book!!!!! I believe that Walter asked me about it out of >interest, and it has subsequently been blown all out of proportion! I did >*NOT* come to this list to "study" you! I mentioned it soley as an >interest....one which, by the way, I have abandoned for the time being, >based on my experience here.. Having told my story, along with the pain of >remembering the experience, I don't see how you can treat so lightly my >"sharing of (you)", as you call it....and, I would have thought that would >have made my request, if that's what it was, for input from others on this >list a little less "clinical". I believe I made myself pretty >vulnerable....but then, maybe my dictionary is out of date. (I only have a >BS in Communications) > >Right now I feel that the only way I can continue on this list is to come >back under a different name and start all over! But...and here's a tidbit >of personal information for all you that are looking for it...I don't feel >comfortable unless people know *me*, so I don't use an alias. Thank you for >your invitation to join the boat that is here....I thought that I had. I >should have just lurked and not said *anything*. > >Again, I regret that my presence on this list has degenerated into a >> >>(Greetings to Walter and others-- >> esp. Marie, Laurel and Robert, if you are still here. >> >>I've been listening all along, keeping in >>touch from a distance while swamped with rl [that and I keep hoping this >>PWP thing will vanish :-) leaving no trace beyond the continued presence >>of the wonderful folk who have joined in the past few months...alas, we >>can't have all we want in life and I'm patient. I've done my own >>perspective taking on that issue.] >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 03:41:28 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?GROUP_=9197?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.acm.org/sigois/group97.html A conference relating to Groups and computing. I mention it though it does not sound psybernetic enough! Quote: GROUP =9197 addresses the integration challenge in two tracks: a Social Aspects Track to address organizational and behavioral issues and a Technical Track to address modeling and implementation issues. It brings together researchers and practitioners from different areas working on the development, introduction, management, deployment, and analysis of computer-based systems supporting group work within organizations. We particularly encourage submissions and participation from industry.=20 w _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 03:41:33 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <961217162513_101632.3701_BHG112-1@CompuServe.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WFSchmidt <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>, =46ritz, > The leftovers are still there and you can read things which > have been written by the Greeks or Romans 2000y ago. Bits and Bytes = have a > half-life which is measured in seconds. Present day information = technology is > much more vulnerable to the usual catastrophic events affecting human = history All "media" embody our otherwise invisible thought and feeling processes in some way. In this way the electronic media create permanence to the "spoken word" whose half life if god knows how long! The other thing that it does is makes it very easily replicable! These very words, almost a chat, will go to many disks, and some archives, and perhaps even to some paper records (which might be less stable than the electronic ones!) =20 These shifts in means (media) of grappling and tying down our mind and soul, do have an impact on it, perhaps more than the content. We go to stone tablets, electronic replications of them come to us. I am just thinking out loud! Reflecting on what you are saying > You can just recall memories stored of previous experience. No, we do more than that. through interaction we create new experiences. I feel it as I have a sense of being in close (virtual) proximity to several in this group, and potentially to all its 100+ members, this is not a walk cliff on a stormy night, but it is an experience. It is not (primarily) one of typing etc. It is of being in this group. I imagine the people who carved stone tablets also had a sense, of their words being asynchronously available in a particular way. Communicating is an experience.=20 > There is all this discussion about search programmes as if there > were hidden treasures in the INTERNET. Collaborative filtering > should give you the mental food you are to desire. There are hidden treasures, however my interest has not been in search programs. I think no one has ever hyped the internet, it is all that they say, and more. The most important shift is not our access to "information" but our access to each other, we are ALL (potentially all, and potentially very cheaply) connected. We have overcome distance and time in relationships . . . that is too much! Collaborative filtering creates affinity pools in that chaos, it allows us to be exraordinary, and not alone. It allows us to collaborate.=20 > What you get out of the INTERNET depends on the effort you put in. Yes, but not just effort, effort using the media, and effort in developing it, and effort in finding the right tools, and effort in creating places and spaces for communication as we do here . . . this list serv is an amazing tool in its own right don't forget. I began all this on a bulletin board, and it was clumsy, I needed to integrate at least 20 software packets to make it work, and users needed about 6! Still we did pychological explorations. =20 I think there are new ones looming for us as the media develops. I also think we develop the media, even by visualising it, by asking for what we want, by using it. =20 Also there is a battle for soul and for life going on in all this. I see the efforts in linking many people to many people as being something the broadcasters are not so interested in, developing the media in a one to many direction, creating desk potatoes, markets. I may be wrong. =20 Walter, Disturbed by internet dreams=20 Attacked by internet visions Pulled away from internet dramas by the demands of the world On Tue, 17 Dec 1996 11:25:14 EST WFSchmidt <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote: > Hi, > HooN:>But, physical deterioration is all there is on the base level of > matter.< >=20 > On a certain elementary level all matter is composed of protons, = neutrons, and > electrons. Protons are thought of having a lifetime with respect to = decay > (detoriation) of >> 10 power of 30 y. This means the protons making up = your > body have been many time in other living or dead objects. Although over= the > centuries philosophy has been divided into materialists and idealists = the > question if spirit or mind can exist without matter remains unresolved. > ------ > >Then there is the internet; our body may disappear, it disappears. The > fantasy grows: sans body we become transmogrified through the net, = network, > 'extropiated', virtualized, re-collected.< >=20 > The INTERNET or on-line communication can exist by wires and power = sources, > only. In former times, people communicated by paper or even earlier by = clay > tablets or stones. The leftovers are still there and you can read = things which > have been written by the Greeks or Romans 2000y ago. Bits and Bytes = have a > half-life which is measured in seconds. Present day information = technology is > much more vulnerable to the usual catastrophic events affecting human = history >=20 > Different living organisms in the course of evolution have excelled by > developing one organ or more organs of their body to its extreme = capacities. > The present-day shark has a small brain but powerfull jaws and fins. = The human > race has the brain as its extreme organ. Dissociation of function and = organ > results in *mental disorder*. A branch of psychotherapy tries to mend = this > disorder and reunite body (brain) and mind: The Feldenkrais-method or = the > method of Bioenergetics (A. Loewen). > Children watching too much TV or sitting in front of their PC-monitors = are > asked to go outside and feel the breeze of cool fresh air, of hearing = birds > sing, or feel the wettness of water, all things which you cannot = transmit via > the internet. You can just recall memmories stored of previous = experience. > ------ > >Walter quotes from Thomas Moore, and I snip: >=20 > >the Internet > >or the World Wide Web is going to make > >us a global community, because > >communities rise from the heart, not from > >the mind.<< >=20 > A failure of relationship is often attributed to the fact that the = chemistry > was not right. *I cannot stomach this guy* is another expression = pointing to > the importance non-verbal communication and perception by the various = senses. > ------ >=20 > Well I just throw in this one, too: > There is all this discussion about search programmes as if there were = hidden > treasures in the INTERNET. Collaborative filtering should give you the = mental > food you are to desire. > Well as in food preparation you can either eat effortless fast food = from the > chain, or you can prepare your own dinner from recipies encorporating = the > selection of raw materiel and spending an hour or two in preparation = and > cooking. > What you get out of the INTERNET depends on the effort you put in. >=20 > Best wishes to all, > FRITZ >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:50:12 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: WFSchmidt <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Multiple recipients Hi NooN and all, >You patronize me, (I'm sure I do the same to others,) but, as usual, it is so good natured and erudite and comprehensive or cryptic an informing that I'm, again, amused!< Yes I try to support our on-line relationships by agreeing or by contradicting to what has been written. I don't fancy bitter feuds, I would feel like Don Quijote fighting with imaginary enemies by attacking wind mills. I am very happy if my statements amused you, that's good entertainment. At times my messages may come from the doctorate level (as was discussed ealier by Charles C. (see below) rather than from the feel level): *Charles Cameron: But let me explain: the problem with being a bit of a "mental athlete" is that we're designed to use both mind and heart -- and when we are very good indeed at thinking, it's both a blessing and a curse. It allows us to see and know and understand some things in a great deal of interesting detail, and to exchange ideas in a kind of shorthand with others who share our areas of knowledge -- but it also means we sometimes get disconnected from our feelings, and have to go back to square one to make contact again.* I might involuntarily express certain subjects in a cryptic way. This may be a tactical move in order to excite responses :-). ________________ Now to the unity of body an mind, as the Romans said "Mens sana in corpore sano sit" Mr. Feldenkrais is/was a physicist or mathematician who got involved into Psychotherapy in Israel after the 67 war. He came in contact with maimed Israeli solders who related to him that they still had the feeling of the missing limbs. He realized the intimate connection between body and mind and began to develop a therapy helping these people to rehabilitate certain abilities which were impaired by the missing limb. I have a book by him, but at the present cannot locate it in my chaos. Anyway, I participated in a course and had the most remarkable experiences. Dr. Alexander Loewen is called the "father of bioenergetics". By training he was a lawyer but came into contact with Wilhelm Reich (an exiled psychiatrist) in New York. he studied at his Institute and became a practicing psychotherapist, later. A. Loewen considers processes of the body and of the soul as manifestations of a the same uniform life process. A perturbation may manifest itself in either area (body/soul) or both. By working with your body and by becoming aware of these interrelationships a new self awareness is obtained and fear and stress can be overcome. I had a short experience with this method. It can be very demanding on your physique. Summarinzing one may say that bioenergetics is the hard way while Feldenkrais is a soft way. end of the lecture ----------------------- Hoon: >Internet is both physical network and behavioral intention; yes?< We are d'accord. ---------------------- Walter's message came in time, so I can respond to it, too: >The other thing that it does is makes it very easily replicable! These very words, almost a chat, will go to many disks, and some archives, and perhaps even to some paper records (which might be less stable than the electronic ones!) =20< I agree in principle with this assessment. What I am concerned with is summarized in a snip we have in the community I am operating in: "I don't mind that he publishes fast, but what I object to is that he publishes faster than he thinks!" > Communicating is an experience.=20< This is definitely true and the NET has expanded our means of communication/experience tremendously. >..this list serv is an amazing tool in its own right don't forget. I began all this on a bulletin board, and it was clumsy, I needed to integrate at least 20 software packets to make it work, and users needed about 6! Still we did pychological explorations. =20< Please, let there be no misunderstanding, I am very grateful for your efforts and for the amount of work you are putting in to make this listserv a truly exciting experience. Thanks Walter. PS: I wonder why suddenly > =20 < (probably CR) appears in your messages this was not so several months ago. I will finish, but one last quote by Janell: >I've found people on the list (especially the women and Walter) very supportive. I seem to be having more difficulty understanding some of the men but then that's nothing new with me.< For me the reciprocal situation applies. Seems to be an interesting aspect of the gender issue. Reagrds to all, FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 22:37:11 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Relationships In-Reply-To: <961216135254_874716350@emout06.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sheryl, > Psyber-L is a book in itself, a living thing which has had > it's own existence and experential learning. It is after all a living > presence which was born and exists only because of on line = relationships. I like what you say, I have a sense of you valuing this process, our list. I value it, and I like it that you do. > If our individual stories are to have > any cohesion, it contains a personal as well as collective narrative, = and you > or I as main characters can't jump into the middle of a collective = narrative > and expect that the entire story begins where we entered. Of course, but there are again about 15 new people on the list since we had welcomes or introductions. I invite any and all to bring their introductions questions and main areas of interest to the group. New people, new topics, unfinished discussions, finishing off old discussions . . . I think the *cohesion* can be part of the work of the reader participant. =20 I have recently read an interesting paper by Alexander (Sasha) Chislenko, "Enhaced Reality" (Somewhere on his home page: www.lucifer.com/~sasha/home.html ) one point he makes is that we all *see* something different at our end. One example is that as I write this text it is in courier black on white, 9 points. You are bound to have settings that are different. In reading this list different people will have totally different experiences. Some will go to the archives and search by a key word, others just read short posts, others read for a week and then with draw for a month and so on. All OK, it is not like a group where we are in one room, and all of us listen to each person. =20 > Anything is possible in psyberspace, and Psyber-L will continue its = narrative > whether either of us is here.. life goes on, and it is up to us = individually > to find our own meaning. We seem to be on the same wave length here. . . I think we agree to that while life goes on its intense dramas are significant, and that Ronni's experience of being here is important, for her and us all . . . it may be somewhat chaotic, but can we belong here? is it warm? Can we make it a place for fruitful learning and interaction? Important questions . . . I am thinking now that the work to do that involves both the way we write to the group, and also the creative act of reading. > PS... Walter, I do not envy you your job. Ah, my job here is not that hard for me, I have a sense that whatever happens it is not up to me, the group life is bigger. What I do (or do not do) as facilitator, is grist for our learning about lists, and how to run them. I certainly appreciate it when participants attend to the process here, if facilitation is needed anyone can give it a go, or suggest things to me. In the list preferably. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 13:10:53 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Relationships Walter, all << I like what you say, I have a sense of you valuing this process, our list. I value it, and I like it that you do. >> I do value this process... my own experience has been one of a sense of personal psychic expansion. I believe this expansion is a result of my own use of analogy to process and link information, seeing Psyber-L as a novel, myth, story, continually unfolding and evolving, with the characters, the individual Psyber-L characters creating their own stories within the context of a larger theme. Susan's analogy to boats also works for me, in fact widens my perspective... my own knowledge of ships and boats incorporates the Plimsol line... the point of balance which determines whether the boat will sink or float. If the sea is the unconscious, this analogy provides a fascinating metaphor. I had recently also been seeing another analogy through Psyber-L... a more spiritual analogy comparing it to the time line of human history. For the period of time I speak or post on Psyber-L, I am alive... when I am silent, there is an equivalence to death. Because I am not *speaking* does not mean I don't exist... it simply means I am a observing nameless faceless spirit somewhere out in the cosmos of cyberspace. Psyber-L, whether I speak or not, like life, continues. As originator and caretaker, Walter, I assume you will see the analogy to the role *you* would assume in this particular analogy... but I think you do a wonderful job. :) I saw another analogy in Ronni's reaction to my post... that of karma. If we do not like our on line persona, how we have portrayed ourselves or the scenarios we become involved in within that persona, we can find another persona, assume another character on the net... but are we still who we were originally? Because we change names or faces, can we really leave the original *us* behind? Taken to an extreme, can we assume hundreds of different identities, learning from each to become a new individual identity? Would this be a true analogy to karma? << Of course, but there are again about 15 new people on the list since we had welcomes or introductions. I invite any and all to bring their introductions questions and main areas of interest to the group. New people, new topics, unfinished discussions, finishing off old discussions . . . I think the *cohesion* can be part of the work of the reader participant. I have recently read an interesting paper by Alexander (Sasha) Chislenko, "Enhaced Reality" (Somewhere on his home page: www.lucifer.com/~sasha/home.html ) one point he makes is that we all *see* something different at our end. One example is that as I write this text it is in courier black on white, 9 points. You are bound to have settings that are different. In reading this list different people will have totally different experiences. Some will go to the archives and search by a key word, others just read short posts, others read for a week and then with draw for a month and so on. All OK, it is not like a group where we are in one room, and all of us listen to each person. >> I agree, and the individual differences, realities and perspectives are what makes life as fascinating to me as finding the commonalities. I see this as a tool for exploring my own projections and those of others on me as well, in other words, who is saying what? I've read almost all the posts, some intensely, some lightly since Sept. I've formed general ideas on who is who, who speaks in what manner, etc. Like Janelle, I have some difficulty understanding some of the men's posts... it actually astonishes me sometimes that HooN and Fritz understand each other! :) By now, I simply enjoy the fact that they speak and I try to at least get a feel for who they are what they are saying. << We seem to be on the same wave length here. . . I think we agree to that while life goes on its intense dramas are significant, and that Ronni's experience of being here is important, for her and us all . . . it may be somewhat chaotic, but can we belong here? is it warm? Can we make it a place for fruitful learning and interaction? Important questions . . . I am thinking now that the work to do that involves both the way we write to the group, and also the creative act of reading. >> Reading as a creative act... what a good point! Yes, I believe it can be. Like life, Psyber-L is sometimes warm and sometimes cold... like life, joy and pain, the shadow and light coexist. If this were only a place of warm fuzzies, gag, I think it would lose value in being a mirror of RL. Creative learning is available in both the speaking *and* the hearing. I believe it is up to me as an individual to learn what I can... the more I expand the more I am open to the synchronicities and able to link it with my personal knowledge. It seems to me that in order to really *hear*, a balance between subjectivity and objectivity is important... too much subjectivity can place one in a vulnerable position, too much objectivity in a cold, unfeeling, and *also* vulnerable position. I do believe Psyber-L, like life, has incredible learning potential... ultimately all in the value we individually assign to it. Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:12:10 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: Relationships Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl: I really appreciated this message! Finally I have been able to pinpoint what I want from this list. What I really want...need...is someone to mirror back to me what I have said. I have had some problems with my communications lately, and I am wondering what I *think* I said. I am not looking for agreement or disagreement with what I say; I do not want to be judged "wrong" or "right" (although if someone feels moved to comment that way, that's fine with me....I would rather take what is offered than be ignored). >I saw another analogy in Ronni's reaction to my post... that of karma. If we >do not like our on line persona, how we have portrayed ourselves or the >scenarios we become involved in within that persona, we can find another >persona, assume another character on the net... but are we still who we were >originally? Because we change names or faces, can we really leave the >original *us* behind? Taken to an extreme, can we assume hundreds of >different identities, learning from each to become a new individual identity? > Would this be a true analogy to karma? > How do you feel about this Sheryl? I noticed you asked the questions....what do you think? I think we are still who we were originally, but it is sort of akin to playing house when we were little...trying on different "faces", all of them based on someone we know or someone we wish we were....or just someone we might like to be for a moment. I am not sure about how this sort of fantasy affects our psyche...perhaps some of you could give me your thoughts? I think it can be a way of growing, of learning about ourselves. (I just have never figured out a way to change my name online!!) Ronni _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 08:26:53 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Relationships In-Reply-To: <961221131053_610482756@emout10.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sheryl & all, > I do value this process... my own experience has been one of a sense of > personal psychic expansion. =20 If I think of who is there in my life, who I am close to, I experience a map, with various pockets of activity. Home, with Kate and Rebecca, Josh in London, though he is here for Christmas and friends, colleagues . . . and Psybernet! It is there as the virtual part of this virtual map! Psychic expansion is a good word for it. =20 =46or me the Psybernet experience includes the DreamEvent, AION Reading Group, and a sense of there being people who I rarely hear from . . . perhaps it would be good to develop a Christmas Card list! I never send them out in real life, but could imagine doing it here! =20 > Psyber-L as a novel, > myth, story, continually unfolding and evolving, with the characters, = the > individual Psyber-L characters creating their own stories within the = context > of a larger theme.=20 I guess this is a form of "literary criticism", or "analysis", to share ones "reading" of an event, giving it more meaning than it might have had for others. The big difference is that you are one of the characters, reflecting on the nature of the media . . . it is also the nature of theis "place" that it is many many things to each of us . . > Susan's analogy to boats also works for me . . . How did I miss that? What post was that? As well as a virtual world. > As originator and caretaker, Walter, I assume you will > see the analogy to the role *you* would assume in this particular = analogy... > but I think you do a wonderful job. :) Thank you. This is a common analogy, who is the creator of a virtual world? Like any creator though the world runs away with its own life, and I am a resident as much as anyone! Even to the extent that any one could take this job over should I quit or take a break. > I saw another analogy in Ronni's reaction to my post... that of karma. = If we > do not like our on line persona, how we have portrayed ourselves or the > scenarios we become involved in within that persona, we can find = another > persona, assume another character on the net... but are we still who we= were > originally? =20 My guess there is no escape . . . Dame Edna is till Barry Humphries, no matter how much she denies it!=20 > Because we change names or faces, can we really leave the > original *us* behind? Taken to an extreme, can we assume hundreds of > different identities, learning from each to become a new individual = identity? > Would this be a true analogy to karma? I guess so! =20 > Like Janelle, I have some difficulty > understanding some of the men's posts... it actually astonishes me = sometimes > that HooN and Fritz understand each other! :) By now, I simply enjoy = the > fact that they speak and I try to at least get a feel for who they are = what > they are saying. Making something of it like enjoyment, is a what you say: > Reading as a creative act... what a good point! Yes, I believe it can = be. > Like life, Psyber-L is sometimes warm and sometimes cold... like life, = joy > and pain, the shadow and light coexist. =20 Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 11:50:19 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Writing [was: Multiple Recipients] In-Reply-To: <961218175012_101632.3701_BHG59-1@CompuServe.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46RITZ, Janell, said: > > I've found people on the list (especially the > > women and Walter) very supportive. I seem to be having more = difficulty > > understanding some of the men but then that's nothing new with me. =46ritz in response:=20 > For me the reciprocal situation applies. Seems to be an interesting = aspect=20 > of the gender issue. Interesting all right. I see myself as a man who has learnt to speak another language, not as a native speaker, but who can now, after much therapy, "relate as well as debate", glimpse into a woman's role. I feel at home with HooN and FRITZ though you both are very different. I can hear (some of) the women respond in the imaginal spaces of the media. I have a sense of seeing women through male eyes, and men through women's eyes. I think i had to do some of this to survive my mother! Therapy was just a final touch. It is not just a gender thing though, I think there is this question of the two types of research that Susan also mentioned, the expression from the self, experiential research, and the analysis following the collection of data. Also philosophising, wich can get on some peoples nerves.=20 I have another thing I like to do, to make observations and analysis on the Internet and its future direction etc . . . that seems quite a "male" thing to do . . . but then it is a bit of a passion with me, I have a lot of *feelings* about the future and this media! I have a sense of it being misunderstood, of *me* being misunderstood. Of my passion being seen as addiction, withdrawal or simply me being a boy playing with toys. My interest in the net is my interest in people. My interest in groups. It is my interest in Gaia. =20 I have a big post brewing about a project I have been working on called "I Like This!" I think it will work better as a post than any other sort of project. It is quite a story. Is it experiential learning about the psyche in cyberspace? I think so, it is on its way . . . god know when! The other thing is that writing here is the most satisfying writing I do. I don't have a sense of it being literature or anything, but I have great difficulty with essays, papers, stories, novels and books. This email thing is like what I used to do in a journal, which is now almost neglected other than for a few very personal matters, and dreams. Email seems to grip me, I like writing it and getting it. it fulfills a need between reading and chatting with friends in rl. I wouild like some of it to be more of a final product, that is what PWP was about . . . I like the feed back of this medium, writing is instantly a relating . . . like you say Ronni, a reflection comes back. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 12:19:46 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Relationships In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Susan=20 AH found it! > You haven't missed the boat (it's always in the process > of sailing around here, coming back to shore regularly even with grand > excursions into the uncharted zones)--perhaps it is more an issue of > choosing to board the boat that's here. You are indeed welcome aboard. Well put. > I've been listening all along, keeping in > touch from a distance while swamped with rl [that and I keep hoping = this > PWP thing will vanish :-)=20 Looks like it might . . . even though there were a few cries to persevere. I am going to make a PWP post soon, with an effort to bring it to a close for the time being. =20 I guess the semester is over, and that other rl holliday type activities are now looming? They are for me. Family and shopping preparing for a trip . . . yet with work out of the way I seem to have some more energy for Psybernet . . . Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 19:54:22 -0900 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Sir Laurens van der Post Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, friends: On Monday, December 16th, Sir Laurens van der Post died in London. Sir Laurens was a man of extraordinary courage and wisdom, a novelist and explorer of note, and a friend and biographer of CG Jung. I had the very good fortune to meet Sir Laurens on one occasion, and have written "A Solemn Requiem for Sir Laurens van der Post" in his memory, in the form of a Glass Bead Game. Those of you who are interested can find it at: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/LvdPReq.html With best wishes, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 05:35:19 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Mary Fiorini Subject: Introduction and reflections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A warm hello to all: Other than one brief post, I haven't written anything to this group. Not because I can't relate to the topics discussed, simply because my life demands so much of my time and energy that I rarely have the occasion to do more than read and reflect. For me, responses to the group entail much thought and the process of such thinking, feeling and subsequent distillation into writing take more time than I generally have. As it is now, I have some time off, and it is my desire to introduce my self to you and to take the opportunity to say that I have much enjoyed sharing your experiences, ideas, observations of the group processes involved in the relationship of a list such as this. Ostensibly, I am a single parent of two teenage boys (that alone tells you a lot!). As such, much of my "free" time is (pleasurably) spent attending sports events, school plays and the like. I have to admit that I enjoy my children as teenagers...watching their struggles as they learn about who they are and what life is about is an incredibly fascinating and moving experience. I have a much deeper respect for life processes these days, and am discovering an intuitive understanding of those same processe at work within myself. Perhaps we really never "grow up"; it is a gift to be a work of art in a state of continual development. I work as a home visitor for a program that is designed to assist families in the areas of community involvement, parenting skills, family relationships, education (for the children and the parents themselves) and employability, health and nutrition. In the past, I have worked extensively with children with special needs within the public school setting. Again, my work with children has been one of the most valuable learning experiences of my life. Many of the recent postings have intrigued me, as they parallel my own experiences. I will be completing my degree in psychology some time in July of 1997; my degree project involves an indepth study of the psychology of the internet. In that regard, I am pleased to be a member of this group and appreciate the responses of all of you who, like me, are interested in similar work. Walter writes: >The most important shift is not our access to "information" but our access to each >other, we are ALL (potentially all, and potentially very cheaply) connected. >We have overcome distance and time in relationships . . . that is too much! >Collaborative filtering creates affinity pools in that chaos, it allows us to be >exraordinary, and not alone. It allows us to collaborate. This is the heart of what is happening here; for me, a chance to explore my interests in the company of others who share the same. Sheryl writes: >I do value this process... my own experience has been one of a sense of >personal psychic expansion. I believe this expansion is a result of my own >use of analogy to process and link information, seeing Psyber-L as a novel, >myth, story, continually unfolding and evolving, with the characters, the >individual Psyber-L characters creating their own stories within the context >of a larger theme. As you say, my experiences with Psyber-L have been much like reading a novel. One I have enjoyed...and I am taking the opportunity to participate as my own character in the continuing story. Who shall I be? Because of the choice of the "book" I read, I have some say in the matter of who I shall be; most likely I will be myself to me, (as a result of some trust developed through my recently departed lurker status), but who I appear to be to the others in this story remains to be seen. Just as I have a mental picture of each of you (not a physical picture, but a psychic entity built from my impressions), I expect you will create a picture of me. Putting an end to this rather lengthy message. Mary *************************************************************** ...though intellect can take us to the end of the diving board, it's faith that gives us the courage to leap... Ram Dass *************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 11:17:58 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Christmas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All In Psybernet=20 Have a Good Christmas! I have put something up for just for fun: http://WWW2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/xmas.htm Wishing us all seasons greetings! Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 10:04:33 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Eagle Organization: Young Living Essential Oils Subject: Tidings of Gread Joy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CHRISTMAS IS A SEASON OF KINDNESS May the kindly spirit of Christmas Spread its radiance far and wide So all the world may feel the glow of the holy Christmastide ... And then may every heart and home Continue through the year To feel the warmth and wonderment Of this season of good cheer ... And may it bring us closer To God and to each other 'Til every stranger is a friend, And every man a brother. May your hearts be filled with JOY May your lives express the LIGHT May you all know Only LOVE May you experience only PEACE With tidings of Great Joy For the Holy Day season and throughout the coming year. Sybil Soaring EAgle _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 12:58:09 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: Tidings of Gread Joy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To Eagle: What a wonderful poem to celebrate Christmas! I found this on my computer first thing this morning, and I really needed it. Thank you! Ronni _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 16:02:03 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Eagle Organization: Young Living Essential Oils Subject: Re: Tidings of Great Joy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ronni wrote: > > To Eagle: > What a wonderful poem to celebrate Christmas! I found this on my computer > first thing this morning, and I really needed it. Thank you! > > Ronni Ronni You are most welcome. Glad the poem lifted you. I laughed when I received your return message. I laughed because my typo in the subject line {corrected ] actually appeared to change the intent of my message. Hope you had a joyful day. Sybil _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 06:55:19 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: I like This! The story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A hypertext version of this post is available at: http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/pilt.htm=20 "I Like This!" =20 =20 Dan Randow and I go rock climbing together, and we do a lot of what we call Geek Talk, fantasising about the possibility of the media, its future and impact. Early this year (1996) Dan wanted an "I Like This!" button on his screen, leading to an exchange of recommendations with others of like minds. My contribution to this invention was to say that it was not science fiction, but that we could implement this with a database and a web server.=20 I mocked up some pages http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/iltmenu.htm=20 and Dan made a database in Access. To actually make it all work we would need more expertise and more *time*, already the talking and the planning and the emailing enthusiasm was eating away the nights, driving us crazy. At that point about April, 1996 we discovered Firefly. =20 MIT and Agents Inc. had made "I Like This!" a reality, with another name. They used the main idea we had of making recommendations based on the choices people made who liked the things you like. They have a great site, and grand visions, they predict accurately what music I like, and have come up with artists and albums I have not heard of, just to my taste! The site encourages connection between people, and offers everyone a home page. On those pages you can see what items you like in common with that person. This is a qualitative leap in communication and the e media, still not fully realised, and certainly under exposed or recognised. Not understood . . . notice Jaron Lanier's critique of agents in Wired (Ideas Forte Wired 4.10 ?) , where he seems to miss the importance of *synthetic intelligence* that is offered by collaborative filtering. It is quite different from agents that work on features of an item, as opposed to who likes it! To proceed with our business plan seemed out of the question. We felt disappointed and also elated. The end of plans to implement but the joy of knowing we had anticipated what we predict is one of the most important developments on the web. =20 The Internet, enables us to network *people* not computers. It is about relationships not information. We see the value in automating the fine tuned linking of people, not artificial intelligence, but enhanced sociometry. Sociometry is the word used by Moreno for the measuring of patterns of relationship in groups. < See thread in Psybernet starting on 1996-12-10 > Sociometry in Moreno's methods is the foundation of personal and social revolution, Dan and I have experience in these methods, we come at this work familiar with this radical tradition. =3D=3D Reflection =3D=3D=20 We continued our Geek Talk and used words from sociometry that were useful in our discussions: Tele: The feeling --- positive, neutral or negative --- that a person projects towards something or someone. =20 Criteria. Patterns of sociometric links are always with respect to a criteria, we do not simply Like! someone, we like to go to movies with them, or play golf, but not necessarily both. We also came up with new words: Taste-buddy. Coy, but describes the concept well, someone who shares your taste in some way. Linking with them increases your ability to sense what you like. They are a taste bud in both senses of the word. Taste pool People who share taste with respect to a criteria. I have a sense of being able to represent this graphically in real time as people join and leave these pools, I envisage waves of fractal patterns. I like the link with the notion of a "gene pool" it gives the sense that these pools have a life of their own and one can be in small ones, almost extinct, as well as overblown ones that will never die -- e.g. the people who like the "Star Wars Trilogy" -- but on the basis of which we learn very little else. =20 =3D=3D The Evolving Features of our FantasyWare =3D=3D During the year we identified more aspects of our fantasy dream, "I Like This!" it would have some great features: * Focus on getting *any* recommendation, and being able=20 to recommend *anything*. Work around the need to store items in a database. ( Fire fly now works with movies, Music and Web Sites) * Items could be of many *types* e.g. email, URLs, newsgroup "news" (include a use by date)=20 * Interest categories could be named and a way of customising them developed. E.g.: politics Internet psychology =20 * Having the option of recommendations come to the desktop, rather=20 than having to navigate to the site. These concepts are important, Firefly seems to require that one rates an item in their database. Why not focus on the relationship between the people? Develop a way of sending, storing and processing relationship information. Develop an ontology to define interconnection. Items do not need to be in the database in our model. All that is needed is the relationship between people. Person A likes what B likes etc. Send me type from in category . =3D A revolution in News =3D If the basis for recommendation was the sociometric patterns, then one could recommend anything, via an url or an email. Using these methods there could be user configurable types of information. Ones know as *News* means the service would function as a news caster, like PointCast, but flexibly, simply delivering items of interest to ones taste buddies, no enforced ads, no need to be tied to news media barons, journalists. =20 =3D A new form of discussion group =3D With items known as *Posts* the service could function as a type of discussion group, in addition to Mailing lists and newsgroups. If one indicates a willing ness to receive posts from peopl one tates highly in a taste pool, that could lead to a group that was conscious of its own existance, and boundaries, yet totally open to others who shared the interest: Imagine, finding one belonged to a group of three who shared an interest in < building , dwellings, straw, alternative > =3D Revolution in shopping =3D Send me type about that I will . Will have big impact on advertising. Just post the information on the web and it will get sent to whoever wants it. We thought of one more possibility: * Having the option of storing the data on users desktops,=20 so the system functioned like a web over all the=20 participating computers. This is the Intranet friendly approach. It was this latter idea that got us motivated again. Let's build software puts the button on our screen, so we can rate our reading, viewing & listening, and that will email it out like a chain letter. In November We got the I Like This fever again . . . but not for long . . .=20 =3D=3D Obstacles =3D=3D Still no time. Need to employ programmer. Need to get grant and finance. Need business plan Need time! Inventors know that an idea is not worth much, making it happen is the hard part. We are not a software company, and we like our jobs to much to set one up. =3D=3D Intel's CoolURL =3D=3D Then we saw that Intel has something in the pipeline called CoolUrl,=20 http://connectedpc.com/iaweb/coolurl/ with a Cool! button, cool indeed, our distributed model is also being developed much as we had envisaged it, once again we were behind where someone else was leading. =3D=3D Back to Basics =3D=3D We are no longer looking to build software. Learning that we are perhaps best to stick with this as our Geek Talk hobby, and to write about our ideas, to explore their implications especially in the psychological aspects of the Internet . . . in short back to Psybernet! My enthusiasm for these things is high, and the thought I don't need to *do* anything, other than write about it, is great. Already it has led to some interesting discussion with people who are writing software that focuses on *networking people*. Dan has been busy writing. In the Psybernet mailing list I think the role is to experience the implications on our psyche, their place in the battle for soul. =20 Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 10:48:09 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Leaving the Highway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All! I am about to go camping for a week or so, perhaps shorter or longer. I am looking forward to a break from information overload. I felt it = today, paricularrly in the form of the conflict between the earthy prospewcts of camping and walking, and leaving the intesity of reading, writing, = browsing etc. =20 I am in the process of writing up Highlights of the year, Psybernet prospects for 97 and some thoughts on the future of PWP I would be happy if others did something in my absence on these themes, = and i will come back and add my 2c. ~~~ =46or those do not have their fill of psybernet related stuff: http://www.sfgate.com:80/cgi-bin/chronicle/article.cgi?file=3DMN36626.DTL= &directory=3D/chronicle/archive/1996/12/25 An aricle which mentions: >>> Jeff Zaleski's ``The Soul of Cyberspace,'' a $22 hardback due out from HarperEdge in April. Along with looking at religious esources online, it will ``look at how what's going on in cyberspace affects . . . how we think of ourselves as human beings,'' the author says. ``But if someone is searching for spiritual truth on the Web,'' he muses, ``it's going to be difficult for them to feel they've ever arrived home, because they can always click onto the next page.''=20 <<< Happy new year walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 19:50:10 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Speaking, listening, karma, and PWP Ronni, all... My RL as most everyone's has been busy, but I wanted to let you, especially, Ronni know that I had/have been hearing you. << What I really want...need...is someone to mirror back to me what I have said. I have had some problems with my communications lately, and I am wondering what I *think* I said. I am not looking for agreement or disagreement with what I say; I do not want to be judged "wrong" or "right" (although if someone feels moved to comment that way, that's fine with me....I would rather take what is offered than be ignored). >> I do think I understand what you're looking for... the mirror is a good analogy. The diverseness of this list I think will give you only pieces though, not the full image a RL mirror can give. I think you are communicating fine... there comes a point though, on a list like this, probably any list, that you say more what *you* want to say and leave the creative listening to those who do listen... I think a large part of creativity has to do with not caring what *others* think of what you create... just that you follow your own soul. An artist creates a painting according to his/her soul, with less attention to how it will be received. Simply by posting your thoughts on Psyber-L or anywhere on the net *is* creativity. You have been creative in your posts here... I hope you continue to be :))) It can be a disconcerting process to put something out in cyberspace, even more so in psyberspace, especially when no one seems to hear. After a while it seems to make less difference that anyone hears at all...maybe they do, maybe they don't. The important part is that *you* spoke, you reached out, you existed. :) << How do you feel about this Sheryl? I noticed you asked the questions....what do you think? I think we are still who we were originally, but it is sort of akin to playing house when we were little...trying on different "faces", all of them based on someone we know or someone we wish we were....or just someone we might like to be for a moment. I am not sure about how this sort of fantasy affects our psyche...perhaps some of you could give me your thoughts? I think it can be a way of growing, of learning about ourselves. (I just have never figured out a way to change my name online!!) >> Yep, I think it is a karma analogy, changing on line names... it doesn't work for me. I'm a terrible liar which is what it would amount to for me. I suspect a danger in it would be that each time a person changed, he/she would accumulate more stuff to work out (sanskeras). Anyway, I change fast enough simply by being me :) Re: PWP and the PWP people... I think it would be great if we could get this thing to go wherever it's *supposed* to go, done, gone... I think we would all be happy to finish it and bid it a fond(?) farewell :) Happy New Year to all, Happy New Minute of Every Day :) Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 21:14:03 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Speaking, listening, karma, and PWP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl, all.... > >Re: PWP and the PWP people... I think it would be great if we could get this >thing to go wherever it's *supposed* to go, done, gone... I think we would >all be happy to finish it and bid it a fond(?) farewell :) > Is the PWP *supposed* to go somewhere? If it is I missed something, I'm not sure what, but I know I missed something!! I joined the project (?) in the hopes that I could contribute something and just maybe learn something also, at this point I'm not sure if I contributed anything, but I know I learned something. What I learned is how much different groups are in cyberspace as compared to real life. I've struggled much more in this area to be heard then I've ever struggled in a real group, and many times I've NOT been sure that I've been heard. I took risks sharing parts of myself and then sat back and waited for some feedback, and often I didn't receive any, so I would think O.K. nobody is interested or cares about what I'm saying. Then I said so what, I'm going to say it anyhow. What am I trying to say? I guess that it's this project (PWP) has challenged me more then any real group ever has, and I don't walk away quietly from challenges, so I hope that it continues while I continue to learn from it. Swimming along again! Janell P.S. Real life has kept me extremely busy at this holiday time of the year, so that's why I've been out of the water for awhile. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 07:58:51 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: WFSchmidt <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: PWP what is it about Hi all, Jane wrote: > Is the PWP *supposed* to go somewhere? If it is I missed something, I'm not sure what, but I know I missed something!! < Walter is on the camping trip, so we can discuss what PWP is to be about: As far as I understand, PWP is a project which should demonstrate group dynamics and preserve it as a hypertext document with various links reproducing the actual interactions between the various participants and topics. The topics emerged during the first/second phase and were then limited to a few of general interest. Walter took the messages of the participants and assigned them to the respective topics, created links between them and the participants. The whole project is rather ambitious since it is very difficult to image the actual process by the hypertext document. For the participants of Psyber-L, actually, nothing changed as compared to the *normal* Psyber-L participation. Walter asked us, only, to review from time to time the WWW-pages he created containing the hypertext. We are asked to check if what he did, in general, reproduces the discussion as it emerged. Considering the amount of work put in, mainly by him, we should continue to contribute till the end in order to leave a first document of such an endevor. ___________________ Jane:>What I learned is how much different groups are in cyberspace as compared to real life. I've struggled much more in this area to be heard then I've ever struggled in a real group, and many times I've NOT been sure that I've been heard.< I guess, this feeling is common to all of us. Sometimes, I console myself by telling me that it is already a profit for me if I articulate and write what I feel or think. Many problems become clearer once you have formulated them and have read what you wrote; sort of auto-feed-back, or the mirror Sherryl talked about. Naturally, we would like to have another person looking out of the mirror into which we are gazing. _______________ That's enough for this message, warm regards, FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 08:19:56 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dennis Rouelle Subject: Re: Speaking, listening, karma, and PWP Re: Taking on new personna on the Web I think the web, or any other medium of interpersonal exchange, live or otherwise, offers one the opportunity to try out a new mask --- as long as that mask represents growth. I have used new job assignments as such opportunities. In a former role as a manager, I needed to be more assertive, in a healthy way; I needed to find ways of being direct with others in ways that would encourage their growth. In new assignments, since the others did not know the un-assertive me, with a little courage, I was able to assume this new mask. The element of risk diminishes in a new group. Beware of bringing the new personna into relationships in which it is inappropriate, e.g., don't manage or direct your loved ones; use the one experience to gain insight and courage to bring a different, loving assertiveness to those relations. N.B., by assertiveness, I am referring to a healthy, gentle posture of maintaining one's personal bounderies. Love and Peace, Dennis Rouelle _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:05:24 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Communication and Counselling On-Line Subject: PWP: Education Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all :) I'm back for a little visit and to muse about one of the PWP topics that arose during early autumn. As an educator of more than twenty years, I guess I could say that I have developed a few ideas about what *education* is. More than anything else, I would have to say it is quite simply reduced to the activity of *communication*. By this, I mean dialogue that is characterized as having many share in the role of speaking and active listening. This is reflected here in Psyber-L when we find that as we offer our thoughts and ideas, we then have an *other* or *others* hear us and through interaction with our thoughts, they turn around and share some of their own ideas. Ronni and Sheryl call it *mirroring*, Fritz calls it *auto-feed-back*, others might simply refer to it as *responding authentically*. With the receipt of a reply that says: , we have learned, we have been involved in an act of education. Education is not about roles (student/learner and teacher/instructor/professor) its not about instructional styles and methods as well as modes of learning; education is engagement where trust allows each party to give voice and to be heard. Now that I've said that, I want to wish each of you Happy New Year, or as my grandfather used to say . Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 11:51:12 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: PWP: Education Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi to everyone :) I agree with what Robert has taken the time to write, in particular the part about trust. Without trust most individuals would not take the risk to be heard. The question that I have is, how do you gain trust in an environment like cyberspace? Many of the techniques that I use in real groups to acquire trust in the group members are pretty much useless here. Is ventruing forth an opinion an attempt to test the waters, and see if one can trust the group? Possibly, but as I've said before many times you're not even sure if anyone is listening. So, how do you know the test has given you the results you're looking for? Just some questions that I have. > Education is not about roles (student/learner and >teacher/instructor/professor) its not about instructional styles and >methods as well as modes of learning; education is engagement where trust >allows each party to give voice and to be heard. > Janell _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 16:17:19 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: WFSchmidt <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: PWP:education Hi all, a lot of discusion arises about ideas not properly defined. The great success of physics during the last centuries rests in the fact that all concepts are properly defined in the beginning and then a description of specific circumstances is given. Now, let's look at *education*. Different dictionaries give different definitions. While the American dictionaries give qualitatively similar definitions - circulating around teaching and instruction, the Concise Oxford D. adds an additional definition as* development of character or mental powers*. This is probably describing what Robert defines as education. The result is "bonte (my program refuses the accent) de coeur" But, to take education in its wider sense, instruction, role of teacher-strudent, curriculum etc belong under this heading. Musing about trust: The problem of *trust* in cyberspace seems to me irrelevant. All other participants exist by their e-mail addresses, only. You don't actually give anything away of yourself what ever you are telling us. I would be slightly concerned if this information could penetrate into my rl or if I had the feeling that agencies were listening in for the purpose of establishing a profile of me, usually with a sinister purpose in mind. Greetings, FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 17:35:35 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: PWP:education Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi everyone: Fritz, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying about trust and I disagree that it's irrelevant in cyberspace. I think to really reveal or talk about something of importance to yourself that you need to have trust regardless of where or how it takes place. Yes, I may only exist as an e-mail address to you and others, but what I'm talking of may be of great significance to me and I exist in the real world. I do agree if someone thinks this information was being listened to for any purpose other then an attempt at communication then that individual may have a problem. Trust is an issue of great importance to me and sometimes I'm very slow to give it even in cyberspace where *I* can hide behind my e-mail address, because *I* know it's *ME* saying these things. :) Thanks for your comments. Janell > >Musing about trust: The problem of *trust* in cyberspace seems to me >irrelevant. All other participants exist by their e-mail addresses, only. You >don't actually give anything away of yourself what ever you are telling us. I >would be slightly concerned if this information could penetrate into my rl or >if I had the feeling that agencies were listening in for the purpose of >establishing a profile of me, usually with a sinister purpose in mind. >Greetings, FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 00:04:16 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: PWP:education In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961229173402.0068d05c@philly.infi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Yes, I may only exist as >an e-mail address to you and others, Perhaps evidence of a certain grandiosity I aspire toward, I fully go on the assumption that I in *no way* exist only as an email address with respect to your reference to me. Ha! "In the direction of my email address." *** The question of email with respect to its being in a record anywhere raises all sorts of ethical questions. Your self expression's " signs " could end up anywhere, repurposed far beyond your authority. *** Behind the text? What's-> That's another question isn't it? *** My own 2c is that trust is, for me, a disposition and I don't ask it as much of others as I make the attempt to dispose myself to be in it's service... (If that makes any sense to anybody out there.... :-) *** I can state that I am most of the times trustworthy, but sometimes, not. Peace in the new year to all, HooN \\\|/// \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) -------oo00-(_)-00oo--------- | | | Stephen Calhoun | | hoon@apk.net | | http://junior.apk.net/~hoon | | | ----------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 06:27:27 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: PWP:education Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hoon: This sums up my feelings exactly! Er, I think....hmmmm..... Ronni At 12:04 AM 12/30/96 -0500, you wrote: >>Yes, I may only exist as >>an e-mail address to you and others, > >Perhaps evidence of a certain grandiosity I aspire toward, I fully go on >the assumption that I in *no way* exist only as an email address with >respect to your reference to me. > >Ha! "In the direction of my email address." > >*** > >The question of email with respect to its being in a record anywhere raises >all sorts of ethical questions. Your self expression's " signs " could end >up anywhere, repurposed far beyond your authority. > >*** > >Behind the text? What's-> > >That's another question isn't it? > >*** > >My own 2c is that trust is, for me, a disposition and I don't ask it as >much of others as I make the attempt to dispose myself to be in it's >service... > >(If that makes any sense to anybody out there.... :-) > >*** > >I can state that I am most of the times trustworthy, but sometimes, not. > >Peace in the new year to all, > >HooN > > > > \\\|/// > \\ ~ ~ // > ( @ @ ) > -------oo00-(_)-00oo--------- >| | >| Stephen Calhoun | >| hoon@apk.net | >| http://junior.apk.net/~hoon | >| | > ----------------------------- > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 10:06:53 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: PWP:education Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ronni: Look back to a message on 12/29/96 and see what you think of my comments about trust. I was replying to something that Fritz said about something I said earlier (that sounds a little confusing but it is the sequence of events). Janell At 06:27 AM 12/30/96 -0800, you wrote: >Hoon: >This sums up my feelings exactly! Er, I think....hmmmm..... > >Ronni > >At 12:04 AM 12/30/96 -0500, you wrote: >>>Yes, I may only exist as >>>an e-mail address to you and others, >> >>Perhaps evidence of a certain grandiosity I aspire toward, I fully go on >>the assumption that I in *no way* exist only as an email address with >>respect to your reference to me. >> >>Ha! "In the direction of my email address." >> >>*** >> >>The question of email with respect to its being in a record anywhere raises >>all sorts of ethical questions. Your self expression's " signs " could end >>up anywhere, repurposed far beyond your authority. >> >>*** >> >>Behind the text? What's-> >> >>That's another question isn't it? >> >>*** >> >>My own 2c is that trust is, for me, a disposition and I don't ask it as >>much of others as I make the attempt to dispose myself to be in it's >>service... >> >>(If that makes any sense to anybody out there.... :-) >> >>*** >> >>I can state that I am most of the times trustworthy, but sometimes, not. >> >>Peace in the new year to all, >> >>HooN >> >> >> >> \\\|/// >> \\ ~ ~ // >> ( @ @ ) >> -------oo00-(_)-00oo--------- >>| | >>| Stephen Calhoun | >>| hoon@apk.net | >>| http://junior.apk.net/~hoon | >>| | >> ----------------------------- >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 12:32:07 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: Re: PWP what is it about In-Reply-To: <961228125850_101632.3701_BHG45-2@CompuServe.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Fritz--You give a good description of what PWP is about, capturing its ambitiousness and the innovativeness of what Walter is trying to do here. In terms of ALMOST every element, I think it a neat idea and one which I heartily applaud him for undertaking (actually, I probably offer a hug instead of applause, but I'm into warm fuzzies). My ONLY reservation is that it takes a small group of participants in the MIDDLE of regular group participation and privileges their contributions to the specific topics. Now I realize that there is not a gender bias in the constitution of the group (and indeed it has brought up front a richness of women in this group), but I also know that my experience as a female enduring meeting after meeting with folk (mostly male) who set the agenda, ask for input, and then pay attention only to the contributions of a select few, while ignoring valid and valuable input from me and other less privileged folk, is extremely frustrating and distressing and STRONGLY colours my reactions to this project. Psyber-L has (with a few flamboyant exceptions when we have become quite emotionally heated) been a place for me of safety and, yes, of trust. I have moved in and out of actively voicing (keyboarding?) my responses to the conversation over the past year due to rl demands, but have found it to be a place of meaning and companionship. This PWP-thing AS IT GOT STRUCTURED has really disrupted my entire FEELING response to the fellowship here. I am an intellectual (Ph.D. and the whole shebang) and have found this group of people to be one of the few places where really playing with ideas is valued (and yes, the feeling side hurts when some people take potshots at intellectuals--I like to think in big words, they allow me a precision of expression that a collection of little words don't always do--using big words or specialized jargon doesn't mean I'm a snob or that I'm trying to close anyone out of a discussion, although it doesn mean I may need to be attentinve to the translating/teaching function we all must engage in here because we are different from one another and bring different experiences and different worldviews). But both the FEELING and THINKING parts of me see this privileging of the part instead of the whole divergent from the persona I see for Psyber-L; I experience the PWP as devisive, exclusionary, and inhibiting. I have important ideas and experiences to share, especially about education, especially as I see myself as a teacher-scholar rather than a scholar-teacher. And yes, I know that I can go ahead and say them, and yes, I know as far as the real conversation of the list goes it probably doesnt make any difference,but something about the structuring of this PWP-thing galls the hell out of me!!!! Now maybe I'm just beating a dead horse here, maybe I'm just being a bitch about this (guess someone has to be in that role for us occasionally I suppose--Laurel's gotten awfully tame (she says with a smile and a wink in Laurel's direction)), and maybe I'm just projecting my own issues of lonliness and exclusion, but I HATE it! My view is forget the damn structure--let PWP as a select group vanish and let the project focus on the threads of discussion from the group as a whole. It is not like we are a list generating hundreds of posts a day!! Enough said--I'll go calm down and come reply more sanely later to some of the threads being discussed. Susan Oh--and Fritz--this isn't really aimed at you--I realized in replying to your post that it looks like that. It is really is for all of us here. Apologies for any shots too close in---hmmmm, although I guess if they are just to your e-mail address, they can't get tooooo close ;-) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:20:56 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: PWP what is it about Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nice post Susan, I have not paid much attention to PWP either. I'm not very interested in the hypertext based attempted linking of concepts that were written in email. I did recommend to a few people to join, but I had decided right from the start that I wasn't particularly interested. I don't have the time or inclination to dedicate myself to involvement in a group. What I've discovered by my involvement with this and other lists is that because of the nature of this media, and the diversity of my interests, I often end up with heavily overloaded on the input side and unable to converse on all of the topics that I find interesting. I've also noticed that the input side has prevented me from focusing in the things that I really want to do, since I'm constantly thinking about what is being discussed on the list looking for some connection to what I'm interested in, rather than simply doing what I want to do. But that is the nature of the interface. I'm stuck having to work out what to say via the written word, with it's lack of context and all of that, (We've gone over this many, many times.) So I get maybe two concepts out the door and reach resolution on one of them every other day, when I've got hundreds of connections running around in my head at any given moment. It's gotten to the point that I simply don't care to buck the trends here, but have become a causual observer of what is happening. PWP doesn't interest me for the simple reason that I create connections inside my own head much faster than can be represented in this tedious media. A few days ago Walter posted on the ideas of Socio-metry and Agents. When I first joined this list he and I bumped heads about his commune based approach, I see the Socio-metric approach as just another extension of that approach, and I still whole heartedly diagree with his entire group centered approach. While I felt like I needed to break down his position and prove it's falseness, I realized that since he had posted several messages on the subject, and written in such positive/glowing terms, that I would have ended up having to spend several days to tear apart his position while basically gaining nothing for my efforts. In a face to face conversation with friends I managed to tear apart the entire agent theory in about 5 minutes. Quite simply, for example, just because I'm a member of this group doesn't mean that I'm interested in what is being done here. Group membership doesn't set individual taste. In addition, the exploration is the thing that creates and entrenches a sense of value. Too much of what you want makes you not want it anymore. Laurel and I have conversed about how this list has been boring, and indeed, it has been. So much the better for me, as I have a wife that's due in about 2 weeks with a new daughter and I don't really even have the time to write out this message, let alone get involved in other lengthy discussions. I have however come to once again realize that it's alright for other people to have interests that don't mirror mine, since I hope that I allowed to have interests that don't mirror their's. I have thought fondly about the thread on rage that we discussed last year, and I appreciate that there is enough freedom in Walter's commune that these touchy issues can be discussed. As for me, I'm still busy "Putting A Human Face On Technology". Wilbur _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:52:43 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: CMC poet and philosopher Subject: I can't think of a subject header Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan -- It was good to hear your voice again. I understand how RL can creep up and take over one's life leaving little time for interactions with others in this ephemeral country. You present a well-spoken protest against PWP. After having survived (somewhat) the dream game experience, the PWP seems indeed a pointless division *within* the group of PSYBER-L. If the PWP thing was to have a tru life it would have needed to have a true birth and separation of umbilical cord. As it is, it's an amorphous blob still floating in the amniotic sac of the parent. Enough about PWP, I was reading as a means to fill in a few quiet moments of my day and came across a few gems that I think can give rise to discussion here on PSYBER-L. The first is from Hesse's book, THE GLASS BEAD GAME: :: Oh, if only it were possible to find understanding .... If only :: there were a dogma to believe in. Everything is contradictory, :: everything tangential; there are no certainties anymore .... Isn't :: there any truth? (p. 83) If we were to believe the growing crowd of fundamentalists of every persuasion, there are more *truths* than people. Does it matter that these *truths* contradict each other and scatter reason to the four corners of our globe and to other dimensions as well? The need for a *black and white world* has gurus popping up faster than acne on a teenager's forehead. An example of a popular guru that is within the *system* is Dr. Laura. Her *instant* pastiche of quick fixes for every sort of malady of the psyche, a pot-pourri of moralistic, bombastic society-defined truisms, negate the concept of each of us being unique individuals. The Jungian concept of individuation becomes a dirty word and is likened to narcissism. Contempt is heaped upon those *selfish* brutes who would leave home in search of soul and meaning. Meaning is defined by the soulless institutions which govern our lives, our labour, and now our therapy. Whew! I guess I got a little heated there, time to cool down and move on to another topic. While reading a book by James Hollis (SWAMPLANDS OF THE SOUL), I noted Hollis' disappointment with the world of psychology because of its growing focus on therapy as a process of behaviour modification using biochemical and reprogramming for those behaviours which can be statistically observed and cognitively explained. Hollis goes on to add a few words of his own, words that gave me an *ah-ha* feeling. :: While al of these treatment mofalities are significant and :: helpful, they seldom address the most profound need of the :: modern, namely, to render one's journey meaningful. Any :: therapy which does not address the issues of the soul must :: remain superficial in the end, no matter how much palliation :: of the symptoms it initially provides. (p. 9) I wonder at the distancing that is happening here on PSYBER-L, a community where investigations of the psyche (Latin for SOUL) seemed to be a natural activity. It's not a critique of being *intellectual*, for surely, one can use all one's wits to travel these domaines. It's a lament for retreat into the *safe* zones of de-personalized (soulless) commentaries. But then again, this is a poet who is babbling thus. Let the others make sense of what I have put forward (Wilbur? Fritz? HooN, Charles? Janell? Laurel/Dolores? anyone?) -- then maybe not ... and the words just fade into the archives as another anomaly. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 17:04:55 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: CMC poet and philosopher Subject: Re: PWP what is it about Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan, it's me again! I felt the need to address some of your words directly, so please bear with me while I allow the ripples to spread out from your splash into this fishbowl :) > My ONLY reservation is that it takes a small group > of participants in the MIDDLE of regular group participation > and privileges their contributions to the specific topics. I wonder if that was even possible? Given that the PWP discussion (as little as there has been of it) has had voices both in and out of the *participants*, voices in which those with *privileges* interact with those *without privileges*, how does one separate the comments and limit them and still make any sense. Reading about Walter's various *projects* causes me to wonder if the PWP has any rationality within the group. > realize that there is not a gender bias in the constitution of > the group (and indeed it has brought up front a richness of > women in this group) I must be blind ;) as I didn't take any notice of these dynamics. I have wondered at the rationale for the *gender* discussions at times. Does it surprise that men feel more comfortable in discussion with males? that women search for other women in any given conversation? Genetic polarities, we at best *dance* together sometimes without stepping on toes ... one going forwards, one going backwards ... the skilled dancers rotating roles as the dance progresses. Power of speech is not *given* it is siezed and exercised ... by all, men and women. Power of response is also an individual act ... many are silent, may they find their voice and feel alive through the ensuing dialogue. > Psyber-L has (with a few flamboyant exceptions when we have > become quite emotionally heated) been a place for me of safety > and, yes, of trust. I have moved in and out of actively voicing > (keyboarding?) my responses to the conversation over the past year I agree with you here, Susan. I too have trusted and found trust here. Safety also was here for a while. For a short time we were able to become more than stilted text hidden behind e-mail addresses. To return (move again forward?) to a similar type of on-line community is a matter of will. How long does one retreat into these cyberspace caves licking wounds? We risk ourselves at times in RL, most times we retreat even there behind safe convention. We risk ourselves in Psyberia just as much though the risking is *inner*. Who dares to risk being fully present? Enough for now. I pause for the ripples to have their moment if there be any. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:51:52 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: PWP what is it about Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Susan and all: I really agree with what you have to say about gender bias. I have been in many meetings as well, where men did exactly as you said in setting agenda's, asking for input and then paying attention to the input of a select few, usually also men. It is very frustrating and distressing to not be heard, but thanks to practice and assertiveness I have managed to put my voice forward although I'm sure not as aggressively as many men. >Now I realize that there is not a gender bias in the constitution of the >group (and indeed it has brought up front a richness of women in this >group), but I also know that my experience as a female enduring meeting >after meeting with folk (mostly male) who set the agenda, ask for input, >and then pay attention only to the contributions of a select few, while >ignoring valid and valuable input from me and other less privileged folk, >is extremely frustrating and distressing and STRONGLY colours my reactions >to this project. Psyber-L has (with a few > Robert writes: I must be blind ;) as I didn't take any notice of these dynamics. I have wondered at the rationale for the *gender* discussions at times. Does it surprise that men feel more comfortable in discussion with males? that women search for other women in any given conversation? Genetic polarities, we at best *dance* together sometimes without stepping on toes ... one going forwards, one going backwards ... the skilled dancers rotating roles as the dance progresses. Power of speech is not *given* it is seized and exercised ... by all, men and women. Power of response is also an individual act ... many are silent, may they find their voice and feel alive through the ensuing dialogs. I really can't see how you don't recognize a gender bias in many groups but if it's like you say "the power of speech is not *given* it is seized and exercised" ; then I think the word *seized* sums it up well since it is men not women who are more likely to *seize* the power. Thanks for listening. Janell _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 07:55:02 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: WFSchmidt <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: e-mail address Hi all, I need to clarify what I meant with *existing as e-mail address only*. For some people of this list I have developed additional anker points: Susan lives in SD. I travelled through SD many years ago and had my car repaired in the Rapid City VW workshop. I stayed over night in a place called Belvidere which has nothing to warrant this name except a splendid view over the prarie. So if I read Susan's mail I think of SD. Robert lives in Sasketchewan but he is Franco-Canadian. I spent 3 months in Montreal and got to know the mentality of the Quebec people, a bit. So for me Robert emerged as a person beyond what he is writing. HooN lives in Cleveland or there abouts because he mentioned the CWRU new library, Judith lives there, too. I have a friend working at CWRU, so there is a connection, how weak it may be. People from the UK actually live at my doorsteps, so no difficulty spinning a thread. Charles lives in the L.A. area where I have some relatives, I know the place a little bit, Mojave desert, Sta Monica pier etc. Those people which I cannot pinpoint, for me, exist by their e-mail addresses, only. Another point I should like to make: This group exists only due to the generosity of Walter. He is the list owner, probably paying monthly installments to the people running the server (hopefully deducting it as business expenses from his income). If he should decide to quit this forum would disappear and what is left in my computer is a list of e-mail addresses. To Janell: I might have misunderstood your notion of trust. I guess you mean that you expect the people responding to you to be serious in taking your remarks and answering in an appropriate manner. Generally, I like the discussion of this list, it does not bore me. In the mining of gold much more dross has to be processed in order to obtain the desired product. Here, it depends on each of us him/herself what (s)he gets out of it. Happy New Year FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 10:42:38 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Dennis Rouelle Subject: Re: Gender biases Janell, et al., I agree with your comments about meetings that are dominated by a single-gender majority. My experience has been in reverse though, i.e., I have been one of a few men in meetings run and dominated by women. It's not a comfortable feeling when one is treated as a representative of a hostile nation. Personally, I consider treating others as equals as an issue of integrity. We need to be aware that we are all role models of our gender, ethnic heritage, career role, etc. When we speak, we speak for all who will be associated with us. I'm not comfortable with your use of "seize" and "aggressive". We don't need to consider all relations in terms of confrontation. In my experience, aggressiveness is a way to address issues but never appropriate in relating to people. Again, as role models, we need to accept the fact that we may lose many battles, but we cannot shirk from our responsibility to represent our gender, etc. with integrity. Love and Peace Dennis _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 12:41:42 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: Re: PWP what is it about In-Reply-To: <199612301920.OAA19290@shell.monmouth.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Wilbur and Robert--How good to hear from you both again! Even though I spend more time raging at your responses, Wilbur, than anything else (here or on other lists), damned if you don't make me think, which is why I'd never delete your messages unread--I learn too much from you. I too have found it difficult to converse on all that I have found interesting (this turns out to be a professional liability for me since scholars are supposed to know lots about a teeny-tiny area and I'm the sort that wants to know lots about lots and try to figure out how all the pieces fit) and have felt overloaded at times. The frustration of trying to work it out via the written word has not been quite so frustrating -- it seems to be a comfortable modality for me, except that it is difficult when context and feeling are necessary. Somehow just using capital letters and explanation marks doesn't quite convey nuances of feeling as well as I'd like. Hmmmm--maybe the written is comfortable because it doesn't lend itself quite so much to the overload that I sometimes feel in f2f. I can distance myself enough from the immediate reactions of others to be able to think about the what of what I am trying to say without heavy nonverbals creating confusion and sometimes dispair that I won't be listened to anyway. At any rate, I'm glad that "group membership doesn't set individual taste"--it is the diversity here that has tended to make things rich when they are rich, and the jumbling up of backgrounds, interests, and orientations to the world (thinking, feeling, intellectual, poetic, comedic, spiritual, etc.). --------and, Wilbur, luck and blessings to you and your wife. May the birth be easy and the joy beyond bounds. Just thinking of the three of you to be does indeed help put "a human face on technology" here. You'll be in my thoughts and prayers. Robert--how very very good to hear you. You too are always a source of learning for me, although not from rage, but rather from your offering a bridge to some inner place inside that is a bit more contemplative. We haven't heard very much of your poetry since this summer, which has been a loss for me. [You also help me remember that there really ARE colder places than South Dakota, so I ought not grouse so much about the weather. ;-) ] I found your point about the PWP seeming a "pointless division withing the group" after the dream game of this summer one I had not thought of before--many of us struggled with a feeling of belongingness in that group, more due to feeling of competence to undertake the task (with accompanying inflations of the worth of just about everyone else except the "I" that was talking at the time) where with PWP the issues of belongingness are more structural in nature. Maybe you are right and the PWP doesn't really "have any rationality within the group"--which again suggests that I may have gotten trapped in structural issues (which to me seem to create or constrain behavior and thought) when it didn't really make much difference to most folk here. (More later on your discussions starters re: Truth and Meaning in life---those thoughts are percolating....and, Robert, please don't apologize for being a "poet who is babbling forth"--I know that I value that aspect of you and feel a loss when you aren't here.) Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 13:15:10 -0600 Reply-To: Susan Swan Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: Re: PWP what is it about In-Reply-To: <32C866B7.4C94@sk.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 30 Dec 1996, Sieur de Cyberie wrote: (exerpts) > Susan, it's me again! > > I felt the need to address some of your words directly, so please > bear with me while I allow the ripples to spread out from your splash > into this fishbowl :) .......> > I must be blind ;) as I didn't take any notice of these dynamics. > I have wondered at the rationale for the *gender* discussions at times. > Does it surprise that men feel more comfortable in discussion with males? > that women search for other women in any given conversation? Genetic > polarities, we at best *dance* together sometimes without stepping on > toes ... one going forwards, one going backwards ... the skilled dancers > rotating roles as the dance progresses. Power of speech is not *given* > it is siezed and exercised ... by all, men and women. Power of response > is also an individual act ... many are silent, may they find their voice > and feel alive through the ensuing dialogue. > > ... > Robert de Cyberie > --------------------------------- Robert, Janell, Dennis, and all-- Please note that I didn't say that I had experienced a gender bias in conversations here on Psyber-L, but that my experiences elsewhere coloured my seeing of the interactions here. That said, I have noticed gender here and some shifting and dancing within conversations related to gender, although honestly this has been once of the few places that I haven't felt closed out of conversations with "the guys" (sometimes I get bored, but I get bored with threads that some of the women spin out too, so I think that is not gender related). I have tended to notice differences in type of response, although again with some interesting exceptions. The women tend to be somewhat more focused on maintaining relational comfort within the group, although Walter is amazingly good at being supportive and Stephen (not Hoon, the other one whose last name I can't recall right now--which is not to say you are an insensitive boob Hoon--on the contrary...)and now Dennis tend to take stands for supportiveness rather than defensiveness. I see this from other men in other ways, but there tends to be more of an abruptness there that may get misread by women who see only warm fuzzines as supportive (and yes I tend to be in that group--and no I don't have the hang of figuring out which abruptnesses are just part of a guy way of talking and which are being a jerk). Dennis, I have empathy in your being in groups and feeling as a "representataive of a hostile nation"--I just wish that the bulk of my professional life didn't seem to be characerized by this. And while I tend to be a strong advocate of non-aggressive interactions (our "rage" discussion which Wilbur remembers fondly :( would show that clearly), I also think that women are so socialized to not be confrontational that when a confrontation is truly and legitimately called for, we tie ourselves up in knots, knowing that by taking a stand--even in a way which would NOT be seen as confrontational for a male--we will be seen as a bitch. Now clearlythis does not apply to all women, but enough that many of us experience this as a common experience and react accordingly. I am babbling here so will try to pull this together to make sense. In this group, I have not felt left out by the men (and can often rely on Robert or Wilbur responding to what I say--and the other Stephen when he was here regularly) and haven't seen that pattern long term (Judith and Hoon tend to play off of one another well for example), but can see how some of the newer folk have experienced this differently. Janell makes a good point about how pervasive this can be out there and how it has been played out some in here--I suspect though that rather than gender related this may have been more topic related, with people, male and female alike, responding on what comes most closely to home. I know that I have valued some of the discussion here without responding (and have printed off some of Kylie/Eagle's poetry as inspiration) --perhaps it is just that I havent such clear pictures in my mind of Sheryl, Janell, and Ronni and a few others as I do of the folk I tend to respond to ... or that when I have responded in ways which I though were peace-making (such as to Ronni) had it misinterpreted...and thus have not responded as readily as I might have otherwise (or it may be just that I, along with others on the list, are so consumed with the demands of rl that just jumping in there to participate doesn't happen--I guess I look at a lot as interesting, but only jump in for "burning issues", which don't seem to coincide right now with other folks "burining issues." Enough--I'll shut up now and go back to writing the article I'm supposed to be working on in the temporary absence of my munchkin. Best wishes to all for a blessed 1997! Warmly, Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 18:11:13 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Gender biases Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dennis and everyone: I think perhaps I was misunderstood on what I was trying to say, because as I read your note I realize that you and I are very close in our beliefs. When I used seize and assertiveness/aggression I was responding to something that I believe Robert said, which I felt could probably be misunderstood and I don't believe he meant it the way it sounded to me. Susan does an excellent job of explaining the type of bias I've experienced in the business world (not on this list) before I moved to my new career of Psychodrama/Psychotherapy. I sometimes get the feeling the some topics on the list exclude me, but that's all right with me, and I realize some of my topics may exclude some and I hope that's all right with them. I've very much enjoyed being listened to on this list and at times responded to, but I still miss in some ways the non verbal and other nuances of face to face contact. They help me to understand what the person may be trying to say and also to have myself understood better. Love and Happy New Year! Janell At 10:42 AM 12/31/96 -0500, you wrote: >Janell, et al., > >I agree with your comments about meetings that are dominated by a >single-gender majority. My experience has been in reverse though, i.e., I >have been one of a few men in meetings run and dominated by women. It's not >a comfortable feeling when one is treated as a representative of a hostile >nation. Personally, I consider treating others as equals as an issue of >integrity. We need to be aware that we are all role models of our gender, >ethnic heritage, career role, etc. When we speak, we speak for all who will >be associated with us. > >I'm not comfortable with your use of "seize" and "aggressive". We don't need >to consider all relations in terms of confrontation. In my experience, >aggressiveness is a way to address issues but never appropriate in relating >to people. Again, as role models, we need to accept the fact that we may >lose many battles, but we cannot shirk from our responsibility to represent >our gender, etc. with integrity. > >Love and Peace > >Dennis _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 17:15:31 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: CMC poet and philosopher Subject: Relationships On-line Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ronni, Janell, Walter, and others (including Dennis) I am taking this opportunity to add yet another piece to the *relationship* discussions of the recent past. Please bear with me ... There is little doubt in my mind that when one makes a commitment to authentic dialogue here on Internet, there must be a *soul relationship* that develops within that dialogue. I even think that this medium allows this to happen easier than RL. By limiting the number of communication distractors, it is easier to actually *hear* one another *cleanly* (Susan, you refered to this in your last post :))). We use less filters in this environment. Since authentic dialogue is based on a trust between people who recognize the *otherness* in the person they are speaking to, that trust allows them to speak at a deeper level. For example, though words are being used in dialogues between men and women, a man does *see* this woman and begin a set of fantasies which may or may not result in a shifting of the dialogue towards the sense's biological imperative. *Listening* is filtered through that *biological* lens. How much actually gets *heard*? Here, we are limited to the words, the tone, the mood of the contact. By the use of reflective listening, we can be sure that the *other* is truly *hearing* what we say. I can't speak for the filters that a woman uses when in conversation with a man, but I do know that these filters do exist. As I wrote these words above, I thought of how they are appropriate for this discussion on Psyber-L. It would/could serve the RELATIONSHIP discussion well. I wonder how Fritz and or Wilbur would demistify/de-mythily or dismiss this? :) Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 18:52:02 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: e-mail address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Fritz: Thanks for your comments here and yes, this is what I was trying to say and may have not been has clear as you were here. I also think that those that I've conversed with on this list I have been able to trust and their response has been very appropriate. This has NOT always been in the case in other environments. In my other career I was one of nineteen women in an office of 105 and in many cases when women offered trust it was abused. In all honesty not all men did this and I'm sure in some cases the opposite existed (as Dennis pointed out in his recent post), but I have experienced first hand a real violation of trust. Peace and Happy New Year!!! :)) Janell > >To Janell: I might have misunderstood your notion of trust. I guess you mean >that you expect the people responding to you to be serious in taking your >remarks and answering in an appropriate manner. > >Happy New Year >FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 17:59:12 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Susan Swan Subject: Re: Gender biases In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961231180858.00690888@philly.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Janell F. Adair wrote: > Dennis and everyone: (good stuff deleted)> > I still miss in some ways the non verbal and other nuances of face to face > contact. They help me to understand what the person may be trying to say > and also to have myself understood better. > Janell Janell--what a useful way of putting this; it is easy to forget that the feedback we get from others is useful in our understanding ourselves as well as the other. Thanks for the reminder of this insight. > Dennis--In rereading your comments in Janell's reply, a few other ideas caught my eye. > At 10:42 AM 12/31/96 -0500, you wrote: > We need to be aware that we are all role models of our gender, > >ethnic heritage, career role, etc. When we speak, we speak for all who will > >be associated with us. While I agree that we tend to get cast as role models by others who hear us speak, it is a powerful burden to be ask to speak or be for all others of a category with which we are associated. While I realize that my gaffs tend to get laid at the foot of "women," I also tend to find that my strengths and gifts do NOT get accorded such group origins--instead they are seen as something from Susan the individual (or perhaps, these days, to "Jeradon's Mom" if it is school or community related stuff). The flaw here is that we use the grouping when they are most unfair and ignore then when they would alter our stereotypes of the group. This is true of men (there really are guys who read and use maps and ask directions!), of gays and lesians, of heterosexuals, of blacks, of Hispanics, of ........ Perhaps rather then focusing on becoming aware that we speak for all, which we do not, we might be better served by looking more to the individual as a whole person in his/her own right. > >I'm not comfortable with your use of "seize" and "aggressive". We don't need > >to consider all relations in terms of confrontation. In my experience, > >aggressiveness is a way to address issues but never appropriate in relating > >to people. Again, as role models, we need to accept the fact that we may > >lose many battles, but we cannot shirk from our responsibility to represent > >our gender, etc. with integrity. > > Just to point out how difficult is is to get away from aggressive language, not your usage "we may lose many battles." And again I would point out that I do NOT have a responsibility to represent all women, all whites, all heterosexuals, all Appalachian highlanders, all academics, etc...... with integrity. I have a responsibility to be ME with integrity. (Oh--and welcome Dennis--good to have you in the midst of us!) Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 19:16:25 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Re: Relationships On-line/Gender Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Back from the holidays, anticipating life returning to normal. Just a few thoughts on the conversations that have been floating about. About gender/gender and voice/and this listserv: For the most part, I try to ignore small resentments because, overall, I find the men and women on the list to be more sensitive/respectful than those in the "average-real-world" discussions I have encountered in business and academics. But .... just for conversation and since you brought it up, Robert .... you sent a posting back in November that (I think) was an attempt at humor and I (eventually) took as such. But the posting still seems dismissive, particularly of several women in the group. Since no one else commented ... who knows? Quote: "Cyberie says, "Silence is a synchronic event as well isn't it?" Cyberie glances around the room to see if anyone notices that his socks don't match. Holly says, "I mean, when no one is talking ... aren't we doing the same thing together ... I mean isn't it amazing that we all stop thinking at the same time?" Cyberie then notices that he isn't even wearing socks. Pumpkin is lighting candles in the night with a bemused grin. Walter is huddled under the keyboard looking for the PWP connection. Janell enters. Holly says, "HI, Janell." Cyberie says, "Hi, 'nell" Walter says, "Janell? Is that on excite, alta vista ...? Oh, hi Janell :)" Sheryl grins at Janell. ... Robert de Cyberie" End Quote As for the relationship thread of this conversation .... well, when I was hunting for the last posting, I came a brief exchange I had in September about whether I should go by "Holly" or "HBG". I started with HBG for exactly the reason you mention below .... > For example, though words are being used in dialogues between men >and women, a man does *see* this woman and begin a set of fantasies which >may or may not result in a shifting of the dialogue towards the sense's >biological imperative. *Listening* is filtered through that *biological* >lens. How much actually gets *heard*? I really do not want to waste anyone's time on pressing my ideas/self/opinions/etc through god knows who's set of fantasies... at least not here, not now. So maybe I do agree with you, Robert, because my initial instinct to de-gender my name fits neatly in your argument. I write this not as an attack .... but as an illustration taken from experience ..... Happy New Years! Holly _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L