To: Walter Logeman Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9611" From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)" Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:45 -0400 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 07:04:50 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: synchronicity and chaos, the log9610 file In-Reply-To: <961030223244_101632.3701_BHG121-1@CompuServe.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Welcome back FRITZ, Hope you had a good time away. I have not been present as much as I would have liked . . . followed all discussion with interest, while I had my eye on the road of real life. Your comments on synchronicity and chaos interest me. > If people have the same or similar thoughts at the same > time this is described by the word "Zeitgeist". Internet communication = is a > propagator of the Western Zeitgeist. But the result (as that of global = TV) is > synchronization and synchronicity of many people. All are thinking and = behaving > along similar lines.=20 I see a huge difference here between the net and TV. The net is many to many and tv is one to many. =20 In a sense the net is revenge . . . we can not talk back, and the one to many format is not so prevalent. =20 > Even stressing chaos in cyberspace is in line with this > notion. Those who maintain that their contributions are chaotic are in = reality > in tune with each other.=20 Yes, HooN's post explaining the relationship of order and chaos is relevant here, see: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/wa.exe?A2=3Dind9610&L=3Dpsyber-l&D=3D0&H=3D0&T= =3D1&O=3DT&F=3D&P=3D1780 The implications of the idea that we are in a system of *chaos* which has the patterns of order that we find in lifeforms. As it happens I was just reading Simon Ruskoff on the subject: | . . . the Internet and many other do-it-yourself technologies = entered=20 | the picture, and the mediascape got very complex. =20 | It got so complex, in fact, that it began to exhibit what=20 | chaos mathematicians call "emergent behavior" the behavior of a=20 | dynamical system, the behavior of a life form. =20 His whole article is interesting, see: http://www.eden.com:80/~magical/50/Rushkoff.html He is reasonably eloquent on the fact that this is a *net*, that it destroys heirachcies by its very nature. This is something that a lot of people do not yet grasp . . . it is a media scape, cyberspace not a one to many media, where the chaotic element does not quite set in with the same vengence . . . our job here is to articulate its relationship to the psyberspace. =20 All for now back soon with some luck . . . Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:54:00 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Agents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Some thoughts after reading Wired. Agents have got a bad press in the November 96 Wired. Jaron Lanier in Ideas Forte makes some excellent points about web agents, but misses their virtue. He sees a future where we are lazy, and may adjust to the agents. We are prone to suggestion. They are also open to abuse by counter agents, so that advertisers might hack into our screens via bots that should be our friend. He makes a good point that our profiles will never know our complex minds. There are Bad Agents and Good Agents, and that it is worth making the distinction. =46or example SIFT http://sift.stanford.edu/ has provided me with an email referenced to every post in newsgroups that mentions the word Freud. Watching this freud related meme for a couple of years has been illuminating. The name hardly ever comes up without the words "not scientific, not empirical" somewhere in the vacinity. We are not romantics in the age of the Internet. Excite's Newstracker http://www.excite.com/ is doing a good job for me. I am finding more interesting articles than I ever could with a search engine alone. It works by refining the search string in some way according to concepts which change as I click the "I like this" button. It brings in the unexpected, for example there is a discussion about the soul being more like an acorn than like mould. Which I liked. This led to me getting a reference to an article by Simon Rushkoff comparing the Internet to mold. Very to the point of my interests in my writings on the theme of psyberspace and the innernet. I like these two agents because they leave me in charge. I can fiddle with their near transparent innards. I hate PointCast. It is aggressive in its advertising, loading ads onto the hard disk without permission. It is aggressive in the way it becomes the default screen saver. And it has too few sources for its articles, the media barons and that is it. I hope it dies. These agents are minimal to what is to come. The most useful agents for me on the net are other people, people who know my taste. Human agents. We form *relationships* in cyberspace, and that is what the medium is excellent at, linking people with people. There is a breed of agent that taps into this using a modality called collaborative filtering. It works in firefly for movies and CDs. =20 The data base does not need to know *what* it is that I like, but simply associates me with a pool of others who like what I like. While I may never know my "taste buddies" I belong to a taste pool, once it applies to URLs, think of it as a surf club if you like, which gives me references to things I have never heard of, and which I could not possibly have searched for. . The more I feed in my likes and dislikes the more akin I am to the others in my taste pool. This technology is being worked on by Yahoo and firefly. Jaron's fear that we adjust to suit our agent has an element of truth here too. This is not evil. Our agent, if of the collaborative filtering variety is none other than a group of people sharing information, we'd expect that to change *who we are*. We are mirrored in the mould of the web, we are shaped by our reflection. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:35:45 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: CyberTime In-Reply-To: <327d27a1.29091619@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, especially those in the PWP sub group on this list: Walter | Pixy | Sheryl | FRITZ | HooN | Holly | Janell | Robert=20 Here is our line up copied from the web pages. I hope you are still conscious of our project. It has not slipped my mind. I am working on the web scribing, and would welcome comments and suggestions on or off list.=20 I have not got much further, I got overwhelmed, and then found a new program to help do this: HomeSite. Very good. Now going through the learning curve, and altering what I have done. It will help in the long run! As I fiddle with the texts I am warming up to the content and will have more to show soon. =20 My role as webscribe, has been impeded by many things, but I hope that the asynchronicity of the media can carry it. I know that time can't be stretched infinitly here. That there is a cyberclock at work, that it ticks its time too. (This is a topic in its own right, time in cyberspace!) Pixy, last time I spoke about taking my time here, because it is not a scarce commodity here, you were in full agreement, however I think we both need to acknowledge the existence of the pace here . . . recognising times virtual tick. I wonder if this post is enough to change its pace . . . Looking forward to the on line life of the PWP . . . be it in its own time.=20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 05:19:43 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, found this poem on the Celestine list & thought I'd share it here just my way of 'breaking the silence' tonight It's from an electronic book called 'The gathering of Eagles' [it's not copyrighted] Cheers Steve --- Pockets [an excerpt] We take a closer look and find a society wherein dwell those who live by the Golden Rule. Their heart's door always open to the seven rays of truth. The rays that flow through and gently ease out the cold shadow of misunderstanding. Where: the doctor of medicine works beside the gardener, the scientist kneels down to assist the teachers of children, the welder has time for the artist, and the baker stands beside the midwife and helps bring forth a new loaf from Nature's oven; and each of them share their slice of the bread of knowledge. Their needs are basic and never found wanting; and pleasures once sought after by grabbing are discovered......... uncovered by the magic words "THANK YOU!" there are times when I fly with old friends, I feel I'm looked upon as a threatening force with designs on upsetting their easy little world held together by fear, fear of self-discovery. and inside my heart cries out "I once lived where you live, cried where you cry, feared where you fear, and loved what little you now love. I too have dreamt of snuffing out the Light of someone's candle. I've tasted of the bitter fruit and had it stick within my throat when stealing not just from an enemy but from my closest friend. Please.... don't flee from me and hide your face. I come not as "the perfect stranger" but rather as a friend who knows the road and knows the price of sleeping at the wheel. I live the Lives of many, I walk the path that leads right through the heart, I feel the joy of strangers and I am happy. I feel their sadness and their frustrations and I am sad. Sad because.... I can only give a reason for happiness, not happiness itself! --- Steve Murray grkinfo2@udcf.gla.ac.uk My love is like a storybook story But it's as real as the feelings I feel - Theme from the Princess Bride _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 17:16:22 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: poem Wow, Steve! You just sailed right into the room and as if the lights weren't quite bright enough (actually I wondered if everyone just went home without turning out the lights) and you threw in a big fireball with the eagle poem ... and I'll bet you have no idea how many of the synchronistic sparks flew off! Ouch! :) Sheryl :))) <----- smiley face _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 16:43:17 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: poems & fireballs Comments: cc: steve@linkcafe.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Sheryl, glad you liked the poem & hope you didnt get too badly singed! Sheryl wrote: > You just sailed right into the room and as if the lights weren't quite bright > enough (actually I wondered if everyone just went home without turning out > the lights) > and you threw in a big fireball with the eagle poem ... and I'll bet you have > no idea how many of the synchronistic sparks flew off! Ouch! :) Quite a few sparks did fall off it onto me actually, so I did kinda know it might cause a few coincs Like lobbing synchronistic missiles, I do... I like the fireball analogy, I'm caught up in something of a meteor shower just now with synchro-sparks flying all over the place The poem I posted is from a 50 page electronic text called 'The Gathering of Eagles' - if you [& anyone else] would like it I can mail it; Here's another fireball from the Celestine list I hope you'll enjoy: --- > Your philosophy reminds me of the lyrics of one of my favorite songs. > It's written by Mark Isham and performed by Marianne Faithful: > > > You gotta make your own rules, child. > You gotta break your own chains. > > The dreams that possess you > Can blossom and bless you > Or run you insane. > > The moment is yours, child. > To lay on the line. > The past just don't matter. > Tomorrow won't mind. > > Storm's on the mountain, > Star's in the sky > Runnin' for glory > Freedom to fly! > I've been quiet here because my mail has been engulfed with a tidal wave of crackling, sizzling and delightfully love-filled posts from another list Eagle & I are on, the Celestine Prophecy mailing list. The Celestine Prophecy mailing list is a unique phenomenon IMO; there are over forty people posting so much powerful, insightful and friendly, love-filled stuff just now it's delightful to me; we've been accused of being 'fluffy bunnies' with the amount of fuzzy, friendly & gentle hugging, comforting & uplifting we do on the list; It's a whole new cyber-experience reading maybe 50 posts a day on it and being wowed and awed by post after post... whereas on Psybernet there is time to read, digest, reflect and respond at length, on Celestine there is barely enough time to assimilate the power and the lovely , delightful energy of each fireball before the next one in the meteor shower lands on me... In the last two weeks or so I've read through 800 or so posts from it & it's amazing, it seems like months or years ago that we had the list group outing at the end of October whilst on Psybernet, all has been fairly quiet since then. Anyone here who is comfortable with Celestine & would like a baptism of fire into a real-life synchronstic meteor shower can be promised the ride of their life if they wanna take a look: Send mail to MAJORDOMO@newciv.org with subscribe celestine-l in the text; & Thanks for the smiley face Sheryl, cheered up my day {{{{hugs}}}} Steve '& Lord help the fool who said - " You better quit while you're ahead - A dreamer born is a hero bred On Earth, and up in heaven -Mary Chapin Carpenter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:10:12 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Diane Menendez Subject: Re: poems & fireballs and intro Diane M. In a message dated 96-11-09 11:43:56 EST, you write: << The poem I posted is from a 50 page electronic text called 'The Gathering of Eagles' - if you [& anyone else] would like it I can mail it; >> Hi, this is Diane M. from Ohio . I've been lurking a bit trying to get a feel for what this list is about and how I can contribute to it. So, I'm starting with a request: I'd love to have a copy of the Gathering e-text. Here's a bit about me: I'm 48, married, have worked since the early 80's as an Org Development and Transformation practitioner and an executive and personal coach. I started coaching with a process I called High Performance Coaching, for leaders back during the time of AT&T's divestiture (early 80's). I was an internal OD practitioner there, and clients badly needed leadership coaching to help them and their organizations make the transition. There wasn't a model of coaching executives at the time, so I made up one that seemed to work for them, for me, and for the organization. Siince then I've worked as part of a consulting team working long-term organizational transformation and half of my work-time has been devoted to coaching, now as an external consultant (since l988). I am completing a second Ph.D. right now, this one in Counseling Psychology, so I'm also doing internship work and creating dissertation topics. My first doctorate was a Ph.D. in Education (counseling and org psych). I coach many executives whose careers are derailing, and who often fit the DSM categories for personality disorders--which was the reason I returned to grad school after 20 years of being "out." Had I realized what managed care would be doing to the profession of psych, i probably wouldn't have started this second doctorate. But I've been having some fun with it, so I'm completing. Not sure what I want from this list yet or what I can contribute, but I'll learn that in time. Diane _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 19:21:49 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Re: poems & fireballs and intro Diane MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hello Diane, That's an impressive amount of experience you've got there! Thanks for posting such an informative introduction; This particularly caught my attention: > There wasn't a model of coaching executives at the time, so I made up one > that seemed to work for them, for me, and for the organization. I would love to hear your insights on coaching... A question: do you use / teach any kind of NLP techniques in your coaching? [several people on the list including Kylie, Wilbur, Bent & myself have an interest in Neuro-linguistic programming [NLP], which has it's roots in the modelling work done by Richard Bandler and John Grinder on therapists in the 1970s; they primarily modelled therapists and the great hypnotist Milton Erickson, but it has applications in leadership & many other areas.] > >> > Hi, this is Diane M. from Ohio . I've been lurking a bit trying to get a > feel for what this list is about and how I can contribute to it. So, I'm > starting with a request: I'd love to have a copy of the Gathering e-text. Sure, Its in the e-mail >I am completing a second Ph.D. right now, this one in Counseling >Psychology, so I'm also doing internship work and creating dissertation topics. > > Not sure what I want from this list yet or what I can contribute, but I'll > learn that in time. > Look forward to reading your thoughts Warm Regards Steve Murray grkinfo2@udcf.gla.ac.uk steve@linkcafe.co.uk > > > --TAA18013.847653628/lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk-- > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 14:59:12 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Diane Menendez Subject: Re: poems & fireballs and intro Diane In a message dated 96-11-10 14:22:41 EST, you write: Hi Steve (and all) << This particularly caught my attention: > There wasn't a model of coaching executives at the time, so I made up one > that seemed to work for them, for me, and for the organization. I would love to hear your insights on coaching... ----Where should we start? I have lots of experience, and find it difficult to boil it down into "insights." I'd be glad to have a dialogue here, if others are interested. Anybody else doing a great deal of coaching? I do several kinds. - One is "executive development." For that, I do "assessment" and use instrumentation (psychological and 360o feedback) to determine strengths, id development areas, create a plan. Assessment includes interviews with 10 folks the exec chooses (could be family/spouse, work peers, boss, etc.) Also includes observation of the person in the workplace, and then follow-on coaching for 6-18 months. May also include meetings with exec and supv, if desired. (PS I hate the word boss--but don't know any other way at the moment to express that. ) 2. Second is a more pressured, intense version of the above: I've had a bit of a specialty in "derailment" cases. Those are managers and execs who are iin danger of being fired, losing a promotion, etc., because their behavior/style is out of synch and they're in trouble. This compares to clinical practice, having a "court mandated" client. Usually the executive wants the help--but doesn't want to ask. And, doesn't "get" that s/he's responsible for what is going on. Lots of personality disorders show up here. 3. Personal and Professional coaching, primarily by telephone. This may include some up front face to face time, followed by telephone coaching 2-4 times/month. I've now figured out how to do telephone coaching exclusively, even with "restorative" clients. May also include some cybercoaching (e-mail). A question: do you use / teach any kind of NLP techniques in your coaching? I did quite a bit of training in NLP during the 80's--practitioner, master practitioner, submodalities. Also a 2 year track in hypnosis, with l year Ericksonian, another year primarily "clinical" with dissociative disorders, etc., and two years iin Family Systems Therapy. My therapeutic practice has been heavily iinfluened by Gestalt principles, too. Have done lots of training at the Gestalt Institute of Cleveland in their 1 and 2 year programs.: their Org. Systems Development Program, Group Leadership track, and some miscellaneous others. AT this point, as I'm 48, it's hard for me to say just what I''m doing as I'm doing it: I learned a great deal from NLP but now don't use it just as I was trained to do, more that the techniques have been incorporated into the way I practice. I guess this is true for all of us who practice long enough. When I started doing coaching as an internal od consultant in AT&T, it was definitely using NLP, as I was in the midst of my training and needing to make coaching up as I went along. When I did the training, there weren't any other od people in the training sessions, just therapists, so that also left me needing to create some ways of using it that weren't so clinically oriented. On the other hand, I got an underground market for hypnosis after I practiced with a peer who wanted to stop smokiing--and it worked. I stopped doing NLP training in the mid 80's with a sense of no longer being able to tolerate well what seemed to me to be the mechanicalness of it. That came to a head for me in a submodalities training, with Steve and Connirae Andreas. I was sick for one of the weekends and went home mid-stream. So, a friend sent me the tapes from the balance of the weekend. The language was striking: so much focus on the "operator" and what s/he did TO the client. I've been a believer for a long time of co-creation, and that moment for me was the last straw (or, going over threshhold as we'd say in NLP). I really do believe that I cocreate WITH my clients, that we create the dance and do it together. That's one of the presuppositions of my own approach to coaching, though I don't have a list of them really to share. We could create some together, though, if anyone else wants to play in this. Coaching is now getting a lot of press, which I'm ambivalent about. I'm grateful that it's not so unusual to do. I'm also concerned that having a personal coach will become like having a personal trainer...... >> [several people on the list including Kylie, Wilbur, Bent & myself have an interest in Neuro-linguistic programming [NLP], which has it's roots in the modelling work done by Richard Bandler and John Grinder on therapists in the 1970s; they primarily modelled therapists and the great hypnotist Milton Erickson, but it has applications in leadership & many other areas.] >> What are you all doing with NLP at this time? Diane Menendez, Ph.D. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:49:29 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Breaking the Silence... Content-Type: text Sheryl...been off doing stuff but wanted to respond to your post The basis of my work as I said, Sheryl, is shifting the focus from external expert to internal expert with support from the external...with the compexity embedded in diversity which ultimately leads to conflicting expert opinions given the necessary limitedness of "research", it is my experience in the people who find me that they are looking for some model of determination, acknowledgment, comprehensiveness to vaidate their own path...so I "show up" as I say and those who resonnate to the process work I do find me, and others "find" someone else...finding what is called New Age stuff for me is just accumulating data which one can apply to one's experience...and determine choices...my work emits from an internal space into the external and tho I loath using the word "spiritual" given the trivializing which is rampant IMHO, it is that. > Perfect description. :) From the State of Confusion and half way to Melancholy, Sheryl>> what I find delightful on this list are the many modes of operandi each hasuses for their life journey...I continually am enriched by the multiplicity of perspectivesexperiences. regards, Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:18:43 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Breaking the Silence - Robert Content-Type: text Robert, back here after experiencing :-) Greed is an interesting word...For me the 80's and wall street > and 22 year olds dealing with millions a second and taking home > millions is greed rampant Can we measure greed in stacks of green bills? or accumulated properties? I recall a story by Tolstoi entitled *How much land does a man need?* I guess we have to measure greed in subjective terms, our personally defined notions. A man or woman living in Geneva in straightened circumstances may well be considered wealthy and greedy by those living in Somalia. What is really the issue greed or need? Isn't each issue of greed met with an unknown need buried within the soul of that greedy person?> hummm...much to ponder...yes, greed in terms of "our personally defined notions" which takes me to one's model of reality...if one is looking externally in terms of the haves and the have nots then comparison between Geneva and Somalia causes responses...for me I look at the context within the context of my lived model which says that people are engaged in movement of spirit or a phrase I read recently "creation of soul" from the point of context meaning Somalia etc. So I don't have a judgment around greed and yes I agree "isn't each issue of greed met with an unknown need buried within the soul of that greedy person?" then I also think that moneyproperty etc is merely another form of energy and people are experiencing their ability to holduse that energy...to what end becomes another question to ponder...in my model I practice tho humbly not very elegantly moving in the moment with whatever I needwant and am experiencing receiving what I need when I need it...to that end I don't have insurance (except car which is required) no health insurance (I pay for preventive stuff), no savings, little ownership which isn't in service of my intention, but I don't project that into other's reality...it is merely me creating a research model and living it and seeing what happens...so I learn abut where my fear gets triggered, right? then on the external note: <> ...if one feels one is charging too > much then it is a matter of the perceived value of the buyer... Does one then accept the payment one perceives as too much and then feel guilty and greedy? Or, do we just shift gears and look at payment in new ways to avoid listening to the whispers of the soul?> whoa...assumptions I need to clarify...what is "too much"? Is that a question of some worthiness internalized measuring system...As a young girl I remember thinking I had "too much" meaning talents, life, boys playing football at my house and I wondered at what brought me "so much" and others seemingly not so much...seeking the answer brought me thru considerable anquish which lead to souling for me...now I don't think in terms of "too much"...my belief system says whatever I receive is what I am to receive...thus I don't feel guilt or greed...looking at the payment in terms of what the universe is giving to me IS in my view "listening to the whispers of my soul" and then I ask myself "to what end" do I have what I am receiving... This week I met with my master teacher, a Mayan Jaguar Priest, who I asked to visit a studio space I am wanting to see if the space is appropriate for the work I am seemingly to do. We then went to the coffee shop where my friend is having financial problems (she is a giver and has huge issues around receiving) where he did ritual...I gave him a check for what I could...today he thanked me and said it was just what he and his new wife needed...so I look at this and say I am in tune and resonnating correctly...for me the "payment" from the universe is knowing I responded correctly...knowing this is my fulfillment and finally, Robert, <> ... experiencial learning ... the adult learning model based > in action reflection learning ... incorporate the synchronistic > into a learning process which leverages both...not an either or. Yes! But, I also think that this model of learning is also a major part of even a child's learning model. Imagine that we all become agents of creation in a paint-by-number sort of way. When the learning fits, we trigger a reflex that tells us 'Yes, this is the way it is!' We build outward to encompass the world to rebuild/recreate the universe through experience, action, and reflection.> exactly the point, the academic system named the model which in my experience was how we all learn...it is just that the epistemological model of creating knowledge in western culture is a model of mama bird feeding baby bird...something about the blank slate idea...Madam Montessori found differently...which is also why I put my son in that system at 2 and a half and kept him their thru 8th grade...I acknowledge informationexperience of others who went before me, but my model says that those who come after "know" more and so I learned much from my son who I always said came here to teach me...so, Yes, being sensitive to the reflex that "tells us yes..."is the point and the issue IMHO is to keep that reflex flexible and open...and then we come to the question "to what end"? am I here at this timespace, what am I serving and what uniqueness do I have which is contributing to what? for me experiencial learning is learning, the rest is data gathering < It is a wonder what words come to life through the sounds of another being's words. Robert de Cyberie> which is my experience...the wonder of our interaction Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:30:07 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: synchronicity and chaos, many2many Content-Type: text Walter you shared I'm not sure what "media scape cyberspace" means, but certainly a net is a many to many structure...in chaos there there is the strange attractor around which form is created for whatever reason...the issue for me becomes what is the resonance of the attractor...one might say a mail list created by someone has the form of a strange attractor, the multiplicity of lists and web sites and thus multiple resonances to which each of the many resonate or not...leading to relationships many to many, one to one, one to many...and for me the net becomes an externalization of the invisible, the invisible organization of inner space becoming visible and thus in our external focused western world at lease we begin to see the operation of the worldreality in a different way...shifts the locus of focus... judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:14:21 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Unique situation? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I caught this message on another list.. A few people on this list have some experience with these issues. Perhaps we can share some insight gained from experience? Wilbur >Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:55:24 -0500 >Errors-To: johngr@cmhcsys.com >Reply-To: research@cmhcsys.com >Originator: research@cmhcsys.com >Sender: research@cmhcsys.com >From: "Jon Franklin Ramsoomair : Faculty" >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Unique situation? >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > >To members of the list : > >I'm a professor of management, and also counsellor for MBA students. >Currently I'm trying to help a student with the following situation. > >She has had a net relationship for over a year with a man. The net r/ship >has graduated into one in which he calls her, and in addition to netsex, >they have phonesex. > >She has also used a quickcam to become more "intimate" with him, in >showing herself to him. > >Her husband is disturbed by this and has asked her to stop. >However, she responds to him by saying that the relationship is a >fantasy, and as long as he feels secure, their marriage is not threatened. > >The husband is concerned also, that his wife has received gifts such a >vibrator, and in return, has sent for him, snippets of her pubic hair > >It bothers him that her heart may have gone to the man in the net >relationship. > >The man in question, also advises her that the relationship is harmless >and is but an outlet for "creative fantasies" He has praised her for the >erotic notes she writes to him, and thinks that she should continue. > >She uses e-mail for her work as well as for her fantasies. Her husband >has discovered notes in which she has said that she aches for her net >lover, and long to be with him. >The story becomes further complicated in that the husband has >occasionally and by accident, hit the "line buffer" button on their >communications program, and has seen examples of the notes which are >exchanged. Each that he has seen, has been erotic. >She, on the other hand, accuses him of going into her mail and being >fairly unaware of the ubiquitousness of e-mail, refuses to believe, or >according to him, understand that email could be recoverable through line >buffering. > >I'm mulling over the advice I should give. > >My feeling is that once the situation is a source of concern to the >husband, she should discontinue the relationship. I'm not sure if this is >sexist advice though. > >Any thoughts on this? > >Your comments would be appreciated > > >JF > _________________________________________________________ > | Dr. J.F. Ramsoomair | | > | School Of Business | "To thine own self, | > | Wilfrid Laurier Univ. | be true" | > | Waterloo, ON | Wm. Shakespeare. | > | CANADA, N2L 3C5 | | > | ------------------------------------------------------- | > / ) ( \ > _( (|_________________________________________________________) ) /) > (((\ \) / ) / ) / //))/ > (\\\\ \_/ / \ \_/ ///// > \ / \ / > \ _/ \_ / > http://www.ionline.net/~jfr1 > Wanderer's W*o*r*l*d* > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:00:39 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Big Blue Chicken Content-Type: text Well, all, kneedeep in snow contemplating a dream event of days ago and thot you Jungians would have input...hoon usually can dicipher however, we didn't get very far... I have this format often where my dream will be rolling along with the usual sort of stuff... very complex ;-) which I nearly never remember when suddenly there will be this sort of "we interrupt this dream for a message from another realm" moment and this time bang there was this HUGE blue chicken, white faced with a red beak standing on a pedestal moving his - I assumed a he tho he wasn't a rooster - long graceful plumed wings one at a time like a bullfighters cape...the chicken filled my entire field of vision and did this for several seconds when suddenly a 2x4ish column shot up out of the space beside the chicken and went up in the air until it was hard for me to see the top of it and then for a moment I thot the chicken was on top but as I peered (and remember I don't vision see) to figure out what figure was on top it "seemed" as if I could make out the outline of the front part of the Mayan Jaguar. This figure could or could not be the jaguar however, my master teacher in "real" life is a Mayan Jaguar Priest. Anyway my guides woke me up which happens often when they want me to remember something and I certainly remember the beauty of the blue... So thot I would share this with all of you while Cleveland is under lots of feet of snow and I am taking this opportunity to relax..tks. Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:36:24 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Coaching- Diane Content-Type: text Hi Diane... I was very interested to read of your work and your approaches...I engage in coaching but from a different locus of focus < I've been a believer for a long time of co-creation, and that moment for me was the last straw (or, going over threshhold as we'd say in NLP). I really do believe that I cocreate WITH my clients, that we create the dance and do it together. That's one of the presuppositions of my own approach to coaching, though I don't have a list of them really to share. We could create some together, though, if anyone else wants to play in this. Coaching is now getting a lot of press, which I'm ambivalent about. I'm grateful that it's not so unusual to do. I'm also concerned that having a personal coach will become like having a personal trainer...... >>> My work is seeded by my life long experience with people coming to me for clarity around a life issue and we work on their process of transformation, mostly in the workplace, as I did my computer work beginning in the 60's, when someone asks me what I do I say "I show up"...my framing for me is based in my spiritual practice and some innate sensing, sort of reading the vibrataional patterns, I have always had in "knowing" the path a person is on and the issues from a metauniversal point of reference...a number of years ago after doing what I do based on my own created process fed by the fringe scientists like Sheldrake, Peat, Kaufman, Prigogineetc, I returned to get my masters in adult learning thru an experiencially based program seeded by Victoria Marsik, a Clevelander, and Columbia Teachers College graduates of the Aegsis program...anyway this grounded my work in learning theory of Mezirow and others leading me to begin a PhD program in Transformative Learning on-line thru the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Fran which I dropped out of unhappily...however,the universe shut off the funds and closed the door to my merry playing in my intellect...anyway I was led to take a different route with Myran Eschowsky, a gifted Shaman, who teaches thru Michael Harner, and now to my master, Tzec'ec, the Mayan Jaguar Priest, who has been sent to Northern Ohio. Seems as tho spirit said I was to follow this tradition and not academia which fits me since I learned everything I have used experiencially, never reading anything, based in a hyphothesis that we have access to all knowledge thru the universal field which I have continuously tested thru my own research...now I'm taking the easier :-) path of learning under Tzec'ec...I also have studied with Laura Chapman who is a healer here in cleveland with a practice...her teacher is Roselyn Breyier, an amazing healer who is working with doctors in Germany around very strange strains of Cancer developed evidentally because of the nuclear accidents in Russia over the years, and who sits on the board of alternative medicine at the NIH. Lauara I believe has taught at the Gesault Institute here BTW, you may know her. So that is my lineage. I would be interested in your viewsexperience around coaching as your practice is certainly formalized where mine has been informal for the most part because 30 years ago people in the mid west of the US viewed me as "sick" and wanted to "fix" me so I went underground...my experience with my Living a Learning Life model where I basically hang out, f2f, on-line,telephone, with whomever comes is that there is certainly an element of co-creation happening which is why I'm not for everyone. As a side note Myron is deeply involved, not for public consumption, using Shamanic practice with as he says "very highly placed executives" who of course can't risk letting the world know as yet. He comes to Cleveland about twice a year sponsored by Cynthia Gale, the spiritual artist who is Earth Prayers on Murry Hill. I am meeting more and more mostly women who are psychology based attending and using "alternative" methods in their practice. Are you? Judith JudithB@sbc1.com -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:34:05 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: lineage Hi Judith, Diane, all... << So that is my lineage. >> Thank you both for sharing. :) I hope everyone, PWP, Psyber-L participants and lurkers will do this... share a little more of their lineage. I very much value what *everyone* shares about their education, experential and formal... and does anyone have an intuition about where this is leading them personally? Is it some ill defined goal? Or is it answering a soul call to something that *feels* more specific... just trusting that the process is leading somewhere? Thanks :) Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 01:51:19 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: poems & fireballs and intro Diane In-Reply-To: <961110145911_1647745358@emout16.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Diane, all, As fortune would have it Diane, you have dropped into the two textsoul communities, Psyber-L and Netdynam, which have sustained a resonation with my own various interests since I was dropped into their midst myself. (Into Psyber-L in July of 1995, and into Netdynam close to its inception in October 1995.) Welcome x 2! *** Psyber-L is the closer to my heart, and I'd even go ahead and count it as something on the order of a 'lineary' part. (Thinking solunary, Charles.) This is in large part do to Walter's cooking mastery and the continueing richness of the stew. Nice container too. *** The lineage question is a good one. Diane, your and my interests dovetail to some extent although I have spent most of my rollercoaster worklife working from within very small entrepreneurial businesses as a foolish and renegade presence, much of the time in record stores or more generally in the performing arts as a facilitator. Nowadays, I immodestly can say I possess a high order business intelligence more for the gold of its tacit aspect than the track record of it gold aspect. My 'take' on organizations is thus formulated based upon the experiential fundamental of trying to make them *go* and my own predilection to learn more about the root behind the roots. Befitting such a character, my career arc has been post-modern in that I've also spent some long moments selling business development services to small business owners and also worked as an assessment interviewer for two management consultants who themselves were working with smallish manufacturing clients to meet successfully O.D. and development challenges. This latter moment came at a somewhat precise time because I was toward the end of an immersion in the history of organizational development, about which I had a sociological interest in, and the practice of business development, especially as it pertains to *some granting to the human nature its power and spiritual necessity*. (Essential: Karl Wieck; The Social Psychology of Organizing.) My assessments tended to move a lot of soil, but then how else to get at the roots? *** My 'frameage' is twofold, grounded (on good days,) in my ongoing knowing about the natural impetus for individuation, and, the fruits of various experiences as a perpetual student. Respectfully, I mention in this regard the depth psychology of Carl Gustav Jung, itself in alignment with perennial and systematic views of the subtlety and prospect of the human nature, and, similarly, the threads of the immense tapestry woven by all unlearninglearning aggregated as the perennial wisdom of the ages...simply put by the confluence of two idiot-wise aphorisms: *What is important is not essential; what is essential is not important.* *Speech is the accident; Heart is the substance.* (Saccharine sentiments I do not abide. Hope and hazard are intertwined, divine.) *** I think that is enough of a pretense for one person's lineage! The details were and are more about how I've managed to survive my paradoxical desires. Think of a person falling face first a whole bunch of times... This more than the stuff: influential intellects and books [see ps2 below] has been getting unstuffed and there's nothing like a gfood face planting or two... *** Meanwhile, I cannot imagine the finance capital system surviving for much longer as long as its constituents' eros remains mostly in the Shadow. So all these women coaches and OD consultants and psychologists and priestesses and, in Marion Woodman's formulation, *pregnant virgins*, just showing up here on the cusp of the age of flowers is especially right on, and, really, I offer myself in your service. *** As a man I'm coming at it too. Oh and now my lineage includes Judith, who is coaching me, and helping me square my own power; my BIG dream at twenty three came up night after night way back thennow:: being a student/teacher in a bustling community hidden deep in the forest. alhumdulilah! *** My lineage ends up lines for an epitaph: "He didn't know whether they were laughing with him or at him, but at least they were laughing." *** thanks for asking about what we're doing with NLP; me? Nothing. Best to all, your turn(s) HooN ps - a spin through the loops leading away from: http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/4Enterprise.html is a more specific wandering and concerns some of the views about organizational development which have been infuential in my mindlife. At work I tend to just play! *** ps2 - Oddly, my own background is inveterately informal and maverick and full of holes. I was originally *turned on* by John Lilly, and Gregory Bateson, and R.D. Laing, Clifford Gertz, Mozart, William Barrett, John Eccles, Edward Hall, Charles Pierce, D.H. Lawrence, e.e. cummings, Ruth Benedict, Bach, Arthur Koestler, Paul Klee, Joseph Campbell, and William Shakespeare, and many others, but it was Miles Davis, Clifford Brown, Duke Ellington, Thelonious Monk, Charles Mingus, and John Coltrane who finally blew my mind. next: Rilke, Yeats, Elliot...to get to Rumi, ra. This all was marijuana fueled, my higher education, and at a bare minimum left me confused and estranged enough from my self to be allowed to enter into initiations, (or *trips*,) with several guides who suggested that with an integrity and intention added into the process, estrangement from the self was not a bad experiment to be conducting. That kind of pissed me off learning that! Still, seeds were planted into my alkalineage. Slowly other forces came to work to balance to soil. Then came lovedivorce and Jung entered dervish-like (using his initiates, Marion Woodman and James Hillman, to suggest I pay attention while sleeping, since the (my) daylight attention was obviously lacking (!) and then proceeded to take up my daylight hours with reading. Well, I haven't thrown the books into the pond, as the story goes. (I did burst into bitter tears reading Quine once by the Middlebury River. No positivist survived such a moment; ended my infatuation with the history of science, and the philosophy of mathematics.) As Steve Murray must remind us, the Joy button works, must work. :-) God be thanked, I'm sober for a rastadrunk. \\\|/// \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) -------oo00-(_)-00oo--------- | | | Stephen Calhoun | | hoon@apk.net | | http://junior.apk.net/~hoon | | | ----------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 11:12:49 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Comments: cc: dan.randow@computerland.co.nz, josh on MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Came accross this news item that looks interesting: http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=3D494449-a0b A new Virtual Cty attempt on the web? Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:11:34 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Who am I? In-Reply-To: <199610211929.PAA26674@mime4.prodigy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MS JANELL F ADAIR , On Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:19:25 -0400 MS JANELL F ADAIR wrote: > -- [ From: Janell F. Adair * EMC.Ver #2.5.1 ] -- >=20 >=20 > Walter and all: >=20 > I agree with Moreno in this presentation of his, that's shown below, > however, as I've grown and changed I've come to realize that this > microcosm representation that we are is not something that is stagnant, > but something that's constantly changing as we are changing. >=20 > I guess the question becomes who or which changes whom? It's not a > question that I've an answer for, at least not yet. >=20 Janell, and all You wrote, ages ago: > I've read Hillman's first book but have not yet read his new one, > perhaps I'll read the Washington Post's review on-line but I know I'll > still decide in the end to read the book or not on my own. Well, even though I said nasty things about Hillman I am now reading The Soul's Code, as a few of us here have done. I have just started and it is always a pleasure for me to read Hillman. His main idea of the acorn, of our guardian angel, of our daimon being there and motivating us to be true to our fate, is intriguing. It is certainly a refreshing way to look at peoples lives as I listen to their stories in the psychotherapy hour. I will never quite listen to peoples stories in the same way again, and that is great . . . However: It has also stimulated me into thinking about the nature of virtual reality . . . about the relationship of the imaginal world to the physical world. =20 Hillman, for all his urging in recent yrs for us to be in the world, and to see the world, minimises the place of the real events in our lives. He likes to think the angels have more power than our parents in shaping who we are. That sounds fine until I listen to stories about sexual abuse in infancy, to stories of real poverty and war. It makes me angry when these things are seen as not as important as our psyche . . . not related. I love the imaginal world, the virtual world, but let us not see it as somehow primary, it is, in the language of Karl Marks, superstructure, built on the basis of physical life. Now there is a thought! I get on a bit of a soapbox about this sort of thing . . . I am an old commie at heart! Walter >=20 > (Not as silent as I've been) >=20 > > > > J L Moreno, (psychodrama, sociometry), proposed just such a view of > who we are > > . . . microcosms of our social atom . . . ie the links we have into > our > > environment. > > > > I guess stumbling across this article was more synchronicity! > > > > > > Walter > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz > > http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > > >=20 > -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >=20 >=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:54:51 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: synchronicity and chaos, many2many In-Reply-To: <2434662398.4280365@sbc1.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Judith=20 I resonate with what you are saying here. =20 The sense of order in chaos around a strange attractor is appealing to me. Patterns emerge, and we don't know why, they repeat and ripple in groups . . . we see it in fashion, and in trends. I recall that my brother had good sales in his antique shop on the days the hairdresser did well. On those days the shoe sales would be down. =20 > I'm not sure what "media scape, cyberspace" means,=20 I am sure you do . . . in that they are only evocative words, not something precise. =20 I thought about the first asynchronous communication . . . paintings on the walls of caves. Perhaps the first mediascape, not just the actual picture, but the culture around it, how people over time were all influenced by the image. A strange attractor phenomena perhaps . . . I have a sense that this process accelerated, with groups forming around academic Journals and so on . . . to the point where we are writing here, and it feels qualitatively different from a letter or a journal, the flow of the communication gives the sense of being in a *place* where it lives, just as books can "transport" us into imaginal worlds, here we are in an interactive one. That is how think of cyberspace.=20 I have been working again on the collaborative filtering models with my friend Dan. We are planning to produce some software! One of our visions is that news and articles begin to flow into our mailboxes attuned to our needs, as if the process has a life of its own: I imagine people saying "The net has been sharp this week! It has tuned into me very deeply, not like last week when it seemed braindead." All those agent out there intermingling and forming fractal waves, which may just break and spill with richness into my mailbox one week and surge out with an ebb the following, perhaps like the tide, attuned to the moon. Walter > but certainly a net is a > many to many structure...in chaos there there is the strange attractor = around > which form is created for whatever reason...the issue for me becomes = what is > the resonance of the attractor...one might say a mail list created by = someone > has the form of a strange attractor, the multiplicity of lists and web = sites > and thus multiple resonances to which each of the many resonate or > not...leading to relationships many to many, one to one, one to = many...and > for me the net becomes an externalization of the invisible, the = invisible > organization of inner space becoming visible and thus in our external = focused > western world at lease we begin to see the operation of the = worldreality in a > different way...shifts the locus of focus... > judith > -- > Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: > | THE online service for entreprenuers. > judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 > | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >=20 > _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:55:04 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: poems & fireballs and intro Diane In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen, > As fortune would have it Diane, you have dropped into the two = textsoul > communities, Psyber-L and Netdynam, which have sustained a resonation = with > my own various interests since I was dropped into their midst myself. = (Into > Psyber-L in July of 1995, and into Netdynam close to its inception in > October 1995.) I used to read the list for a while and liked some of it. It was a real blow to hear about the suicide of the founder of the list. That was a scary phenomena. I stoped reading it not long after that. It would be great to have a "review" and some history of other lists, without breaking the sense of confidentiality, or cohesion of the lists. Ther were plans afoot to write up some of the process of Netdynam by list members did that ever eventuate? ~~~ =20 > Welcome x 2! Yes! And welcome too to all who have joined the list of late . . .=20 =20 > *** >=20 > Psyber-L is the closer to my heart, and I'd even go ahead and count it = as > something on the order of a 'lineary' part. (Thinking solunary, = Charles.) > This is in large part do to Walter's cooking mastery and the = continueing > richness of the stew. >=20 > Nice container too. >=20 > *** >=20 > The lineage question is a good one. Diane, your and my interests = dovetail > to some extent although I have spent most of my rollercoaster worklife > working from within very small entrepreneurial businesses as a foolish = and > renegade presence, much of the time in record stores or more generally = in > the performing arts as a facilitator. Nowadays, I immodestly can say I > possess a high order business intelligence more for the gold of its = tacit > aspect than the track record of it gold aspect. >=20 > My 'take' on organizations is thus formulated based upon the = experiential > fundamental of trying to make them *go* and my own predilection to = learn > more about the root behind the roots. >=20 > Befitting such a character, my career arc has been post-modern in that = I've > also spent some long moments selling business development services to = small > business owners and also worked as an assessment interviewer for two > management consultants who themselves were working with smallish > manufacturing clients to meet successfully O.D. and development = challenges. >=20 > This latter moment came at a somewhat precise time because I was toward= the > end of an immersion in the history of organizational development, about > which I had a sociological interest in, and the practice of business > development, especially as it pertains to *some granting to the human > nature its power and spiritual necessity*. (Essential: Karl Wieck; The > Social Psychology of Organizing.) >=20 > My assessments tended to move a lot of soil, but then how else to get = at > the roots? >=20 > *** >=20 > My 'frameage' is twofold, grounded (on good days,) in my ongoing = knowing > about the natural impetus for individuation, and, the fruits of various > experiences as a perpetual student. Respectfully, I mention in this = regard > the depth psychology of Carl Gustav Jung, itself in alignment with > perennial and systematic views of the subtlety and prospect of the = human > nature, and, similarly, the threads of the immense tapestry woven by = all > unlearninglearning aggregated as the perennial wisdom of the = ages...simply > put by the confluence of two idiot-wise aphorisms: >=20 > *What is important is not essential; what is essential is not = important.* >=20 > *Speech is the accident; Heart is the substance.* >=20 > (Saccharine sentiments I do not abide. Hope and hazard are intertwined, > divine.) >=20 > *** >=20 > I think that is enough of a pretense for one person's lineage! The = details > were and are more about how I've managed to survive my paradoxical = desires. > Think of a person falling face first a whole bunch of times... >=20 > This more than the stuff: influential intellects and books [see ps2 = below] > has been getting unstuffed and there's nothing like a gfood face = planting > or two... >=20 > *** >=20 > Meanwhile, I cannot imagine the finance capital system surviving for = much > longer as long as its constituents' eros remains mostly in the Shadow. >=20 > So all these women coaches and OD consultants and psychologists and > priestesses and, in Marion Woodman's formulation, *pregnant virgins*, = just > showing up here on the cusp of the age of flowers is especially right = on, > and, really, I offer myself in your service. >=20 > *** >=20 > As a man I'm coming at it too. Oh and now my lineage includes Judith, = who > is coaching me, and helping me square my own power; my BIG dream at = twenty > three came up night after night way back thennow:: being a = student/teacher > in a bustling community hidden deep in the forest. >=20 > alhumdulilah! >=20 > *** >=20 > My lineage ends up lines for an epitaph: >=20 > "He didn't know whether they were laughing with him or at him, but at = least > they were laughing." >=20 > *** >=20 > thanks for asking about what we're doing with NLP; me? Nothing. >=20 > Best to all, your turn(s) >=20 > HooN >=20 >=20 > ps - a spin through the loops leading away from: >=20 > http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/4Enterprise.html is a more specific = wandering > and concerns some of the views about organizational development which = have > been infuential in my mindlife. At work I tend to just play! >=20 > *** >=20 > ps2 - Oddly, my own background is inveterately informal and maverick = and > full of holes. I was originally *turned on* by John Lilly, and Gregory > Bateson, and R.D. Laing, Clifford Gertz, Mozart, William Barrett, John > Eccles, Edward Hall, Charles Pierce, D.H. Lawrence, e.e. cummings, Ruth > Benedict, Bach, Arthur Koestler, Paul Klee, Joseph Campbell, and = William > Shakespeare, and many others, >=20 > but it was Miles Davis, Clifford Brown, Duke Ellington, Thelonious = Monk, > Charles Mingus, and John Coltrane who finally >=20 > blew my mind. >=20 > next: Rilke, Yeats, Elliot...to get to Rumi, ra. >=20 > This all was marijuana fueled, my higher education, and at a bare = minimum > left me confused and estranged enough from my self to be allowed to = enter > into initiations, (or *trips*,) with several guides who suggested that > with an integrity and intention added into the process, estrangement = from > the self was not a bad experiment to be conducting. >=20 > That kind of pissed me off learning that! Still, seeds were planted = into > my alkalineage. Slowly other forces came to work to balance to soil. = >=20 > Then came lovedivorce and Jung entered dervish-like (using his = initiates, > Marion Woodman and James Hillman, to suggest I pay attention while > sleeping, since the (my) daylight attention was obviously lacking (!) = and > then proceeded to take up my daylight hours with reading. >=20 > Well, I haven't thrown the books into the pond, as the story goes. (I = did > burst into bitter tears reading Quine once by the Middlebury River. No > positivist survived such a moment; ended my infatuation with the = history of > science, and the philosophy of mathematics.) >=20 > As Steve Murray must remind us, the Joy button works, must work. :-) >=20 > God be thanked, I'm sober for a rastadrunk. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > \\\|/// > \\ ~ ~ // > ( @ @ ) > -------oo00-(_)-00oo--------- > | | > | Stephen Calhoun | > | hoon@apk.net | > | http://junior.apk.net/~hoon | > | | > ----------------------------- >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >=20 >=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:15:52 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Re: Who am I? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It has also stimulated me into thinking about the nature of >virtual reality . . . about the relationship of the imaginal >world to the physical world. > >Hillman, for all his urging in recent yrs for us to be in the >world, and to see the world, minimises the place of the real >events in our lives. He likes to think the angels have more >power than our parents in shaping who we are. > >That sounds fine until I listen to stories about sexual abuse in >infancy, to stories of real poverty and war. It makes me angry >when these things are seen as not as important as our psyche . . >. not related. I love the imaginal world, the virtual world, but >let us not see it as somehow primary, it is, in the language of >Karl Marks, superstructure, built on the basis of physical life. I have been a quiet lately (under the weather actually) but now emerge briefly to say I agree with you.... Your comments remind me that just as it would be wrong for one doctor to ignore the soul in treating the physical body, it would be equally incorrect for another doctor to ignore the body in treating the soul. We human's just do not come apart neatly as if we were made of legos! For me, this realization occurred most profoundly when I was pregnant. Just can't intellectualize yourself out of all the changes --both in body and soul --- that occur there! Would a virtual pregnancy be the same? Which is not to diminish Hillman ..... Just two cents! Holly _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:47:31 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: I am who I am Walter, Holly, (I'm so glad to hear from you!) Psyberians... I am also reading The Soul's Code between everything else for my classes... I think, at the least, Hillman presents an avenue to approaching the human condition with hope, which to me is necessary to overcome the deadening feeling of victimhood. I think every book, theory, orientation must be evaluated by each person... there is nothing that I've found that I can completely say *yes, that's it!* Although I see tremendous value in Celestine Prophecy, for example, in awakening many people or at least allowing them to drop some blinders... it did help me awhile back... the theme of the book contains a kind of quick fix approach that we western culturers love... all you have to do is find your journey to yourself, then voila, esp and evaporation into a human conception of heaven, all fixed... problem solved. But it doesn't seem to me that many of the problems are being solved. Thinking about Bill and Hillary Clinton's continued repetition that *it takes a village to raise a child* makes me want to gag, wretch and shriek... and ask him personally what exact village he is speaking of???? The village that won't help the chronically mentally ill, forcing them into the streets, out of hospitals because it costs way too much for them to stay there? The village that encourages corporations to lay off thousands for the bottom line? The village that sanctions a hierarchial military to abuse women? The village that has so repressed, made feel inadequate, insecure, denied *normal* people that they have needs for love, physical as well as psychological (reflected in Fritz's post earlier this week)? The village in which people are told they are mentally ill (no I think culturally ill), whose insurance pays for 5 visits so that they can become *healed*? The village where everyone does everything they're *supposed* to yet carry around this gapping hole of pain in them? The village that is addressing famine, pollution, overpopulation, war? I don't negate *any* attempts to address all these problems.. I see the immense value in what western culture has brought about in the past 5000 years... but what I see around me, in the papers, tv, shouts to me that we are in a whirlpool heading toward the bottom fast... and my sense is that the speed is increasing...and the only way we can even have a hope of stopping that is in seeing *all* others as equals, confronting the differences, acknowledging them and then valuing them. And oh my god, wouldn't it be just astonishing if we just told each other once in awhile that we care about each other because we're fellow human beings? << That sounds fine until I listen to stories about sexual abuse in infancy, to stories of real poverty and war. It makes me angry when these things are seen as not as important as our psyche . . . not related. I love the imaginal world, the virtual world, but let us not see it as somehow primary, it is, in the language of Karl Marks, superstructure, built on the basis of physical life. Now there is a thought! I get on a bit of a soapbox about this sort of thing . . . I am an old commie at heart! >> I'm pretty sure I'm one too, Walter... let me know where the commune is. Feeling a little pissed today... Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:01:23 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Eagle Organization: Random Acts of Love Subject: [Fwd: Just for fun] Comments: To: Martin Christie , alan graft Comments: cc: Peter Tiffany , Eugene Lee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ======================================== > > JUST FOR FUN > > Internet Reality Test > >======================================== > >1. What do you think are good names for children? > > a. John and Mary > > b. Bill Gates IV > > c. Mozilla and Dotcom > >2. What's a telephone? > > a. A thing with a round dial that you use to talk with others > > b. A telecommunications device with 12 keys > > c. Something you plug into a modem > >3. Which punctuation would you use? > > a. I had a wonderful day! > > b. I had a **wonderful** day!!! > > c. I had a wonderful day :-) > >4. What are RAM and ROM? > > a. A male sheep and a city in Italy > > b. Hulking stars of the World Wrestling Federation > > c. I need more of the former and should upgrade the latter > >5. To avoid a virus you > > a. Stay away from people who sneeze and cough > > b. Never read email entitled "Good Times" > > c. Use virus scanning software each time you boot up > >6. When you want to buy something hard-to-find you > > a. Ask friends where to purchase it > > b. Check out the Yellow Pages > > c. Go to Yahoo > >7. If you meet someone you really like you say > > a. What's your phone number? > > b. What's your email address? > > c. Let's chat private > >8. When I say spam, you think > > a. Ham in a can > > b. Unsolicited ad email > > c. I mail bomb all spammers > >9. When you receive an AOL trial diskette you say > > a. I don't need another coaster > > b. Great, I'll reformat and use it for backups > > c. Great, I'll sign up under a fake ID and use the 50 free hours > >10. You sign your name > > a. Best regards, John Smith > > b. See you in IRC, John Smith > > c. Check out my home page for cool links, johnsmith57@aol.com > > > > SCORING: Give yourself zero points for each "a" response, 2 for each > >"b," and 4 for each "c." If you scored 30 or higher, unplug your computer > >and log more hours in real life. If you scored between 10 and 30, you're > >living a good mix of Net and reality. If you scored under 10, you probably > >didn't read this far. > > --From Bobette Reeder > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 05:22:45 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: epitaphs/sex/death/poetry/epitaphs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I like Epitaphs..I have a sordid (to some maybe) fascination with graveyards..anyway somebody mentioned them..epitaphs that is.. and since I havent annoyed anybody for some time, and feel in the mood for some unconstructive critiscism.. I feel I ought not to disappoint by posting something completely irrelevant.. Actually (going off on a tangent) as Ann Rice realised and capitalised on..sex and death seem to be inextricably linked..both seemingly an endless source of fascination for us..of debate and musing..well they do for me. The victorians revelled in death, we seem to have forgotten how to appreciate it..but then I admit Im somewhat warped... or is that uninhibeted ..or is that that I've spent too long in cyberspace. Im sure I've spelt that wrong. Its something to do with the raw power, why is the whole vampire myth/culture so seductive , sex, death, power, combined.. And while Im at it..on the subject of death, I never saw anything die before, I had seen things dead, but never watch the life go from them.. until I sat with my dog as he was put down. In that moment when life was extinguished, his head was in my lap, I saw something go from his eyes..It was not that they were now fixed and staring, motionless but that a light went, it was other than the birth of my daughter one of the most intense/thought provoking/mystical experiences I have had. Whatever it is within us, is powered and lit and reflected from our eyes..and that got me to thinking of things, like eyes being the windows of the soul..or mirrors of our souls..and all the other words/phrases etc that make the same sort of associations. COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT POETRY Bury me not with deep regret,, Nor shroud my bier in misery, Not for me the silk trappings Or the sounds of women weeping. Not for me such grievous tones Of hypocrisy lain across my bones No epitaph no inscription To canker with moss or cake with age To those who truly knew me I was, who am, what shall be. -Mourn me not with love thus -Mourn me thus with rage. And my epitaph..or inscription..well I like the one where my gravestones a doormat.. failing that..I think I'd like.. At LAST on the adventure she always craved. Email to all I owe it to in the next day.. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 06:06:40 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: PWP: update In-Reply-To: <961113164730_1551428043@emout14.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PWP, Had a good go at it today on the web, no major new content edited, but it should work better . . . see the Whats New on the PWP page: http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/pwnew.htm I have been learning really how to do this in a manageable way and looking forward to giving all my web site a good brush up. Simplify it all really. Would like participants to tell me how to tidy up their Personal introduction files. Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:46:02 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: synchronicity and chaos, many2many Content-Type: text Resonating image, Walter... < All those agent out there intermingling and forming fractal waves, which may just break and spill with richness into my mailbox one week and surge out with an ebb the following, perhaps like the tide, attuned to the moon.> more later, off to Detroit to be "restructured", none to soon I suspect :-) regards, Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 07:35:19 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Re-enchanting your virtual soul Subject: Return to presence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I have just spent time as a participant on the on-line seminar with James Hollis and others in discussion of his book, _Swamplands of the Soul_. It was quite an experience to be part of that e-world as I met and spoke with Jungian analysts and others who shared an interest in Jung's legacy. I have kept up with reading the posts here and was especially pleased to read Steve Murray's contribution of a poem that he found on the celestine-l list. I even subscribed to that list (only for a few days) but decided that it wasn't the place for me as the traffic was intense and the dialogue didn't feel as comfortable. I'm not a NEW AGE kind of person and find it hard to belong in that kind of society. One of the things that I noted was the *quietness* of this list. It looks like many are busy with r-world lives and/or other e-world domaines. It's okay to have silence once in a while. I think we all need to retreat every now and then. I'll try to write back once more this week. Life is busy at work and at the hockey rink and pool (my son Dustin keeps me busy as chauffeur and as support group). Until then, Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:05:06 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: epitaphs/sex/death/poetry/epitaphs Laurel... I just wanted to say I'm sorry... the deaths of others close to me.... having left my own dog with my sons and soon ex in the marital home, and only being able to visit her now... I understand, a little, both the personal and more universal grief of death and understanding of transformation. Your poem was beautiful,and I hope you write many many more before your epitaph. And yes, the eyes/soul. Otherwise why is so painful to look into others eyes? Or, when the risk of looking is taken, so quickly veil them? Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:44:10 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: who is lurking Hi all, here is a message I received from dreamwave: *Ordering information for and some chapters from "Secret Power - New Zealand's Role in the International Spy Network" by Nicky Hager are now online @ http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/ Here is some teaser from the book: Many people are vaguely aware that a lot of spying occurs, maybe even on them, but how do we judge if it is ubiquitous or not a worry at all? Is someone listening every time we pick up the telephone? Are all our Internet or fax messages being pored over continuously by shadowy figures somewhere in a windowless building? There is almost never any solid information with which to judge what is realistic concern and what is silly paranoia. What follows explains as precisely as possible -- and for the first time in public -- how the worldwide system works, just how immense and powerful it is and what it can and cannot do. The electronic spies are not ubiquitous, but the paranoia is not unfounded. Few New Zealanders have heard of the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB). In this startling new book, the shadowy world of the GCSB is broken open for the first time. Secret Power exposes, in remarkable detail, the secret workings of this organisation and the global network of which it is part The global system has a highly secret codename -- ECHELON. The intelligence agencies will be shocked to see it named and described for the first time in print. Each station in the ECHELON network has computers that automatically search through the millions of intercepted messages for ones containing pre-programmed keywords or fax, telex and e-mail addresses. For the frequencies and channels selected at a station, every word of every message is automatically searched (they do not need your specific telephone number or Internet address on the list). All the different computers in the network are known, within the UKUSA agencies, as the ECHELON Dictionaries. Computers that can search for keywords have existed since at least the 1970s, but the ECHELON system has been designed to interconnect all these computers and allow the stations to function as components of an integrated whole. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ John Pike Director, Space Policy Project Federation of American Scientists 307 Massachusetts Ave. NE Washington, DC 20002 V 202-675-1023, F 202-675-1024, http://www.fas.org/ * Lurkers are everywhere. Psyberspace is a fish bowl with the fishermen watching the fish. Let us turn into piranhas. In my next message I shall be more serious, FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:01:10 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Sheryl, grief a very strange thing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Sheryl Its strange how the death of a dog can affect you, I knew grief for the first time, maybe because he loved me unconditionally, and he was a very special dog. I have felt less at the death of relatives, but this cut deep inside because I wanted him to die curled up at the kitchen fire, and not to have his life taken from him, without that moment when you know that you are dying. I felt as if I had betrayed him. It was a summers day, and the vet did it on the grass in the garden of the surgery, as I fed him pieces of sausage and I am so glad I stayed, though it was the hardest thing I ever did...and I asked over and over again..is he dead, as though if I could take back the last few mins I would have done, or that something could pass so quickly from this world, as though it had never existed here at all. The strangest thing, is that irc seems to have prodded my imagination, because twice I have dreamt and those dreams have been so real that he visited me. I was able to feel him, touch him, rediscover things I had forgotten, the way his pads felt, the velvet on the end of his nose, I touched him..and I woke up crying. I mean I did touch him quite literally..and I wonder if when you lose somebody you love if that often happens. Our minds way of making sure we never forget. The grief when he died was the most acute emotion that ever ripped through me..for once I think I touched true feeling. Something I knew was real. I had had a taste of it earlier when I was 12 I came home one day to find my mother had consigned my teddy bear to he dustbin, my mother can be vindictive at times. Grief is loss..in a way its selfish, for you mourn what you can no longer have or hold or touch. This too was grief, he was the only friend I had, I cried snot and tears on his blue nylon fur, I performed apendectomys on his uncomplaining body and patched his tears and whispered to him my secrets. He was the only one I had to talk to..and he listened very well. it still hurts today. Now when I see signs in the park, about missing bears or toys, my heart goes out to the children to whom they belong, because for many of them it will be the first taste of something you have to suffer for the rest of your life..A loss that pulls at the very fibre of you and robs from you something every time it happens. There is a cemetary in London , Marx is buried there (I'll send my regards walter next time Im there)..its very famous and very gothic -like I said the victorians knew how to live up a good death. There was a very famous murder here, where a mother and her two children were murdered (Jeremy Bamber for the brits) by her brother for the insurance. The childrens grave was in the cemetary, and it was adorned with teddy bears, they had been there some time, mildew coated their fur, and mud splattered across their paws, as they sat propped watching, keeping vigil in the damp leaves. I couldnt stop crying when I saw it, grief for the children, I dont know, I think it was sorrow for the bears. You havent elaborated, but you mentioned leaving your sons, that must have been so hard for you, my soon to be ex makes threats about taking her from me, that is a grief I dont think I would ever get over. I'd like to hear about it if you want to talk Im going through much the same thing, and its very confusing, and it hurts alot. Write to me if you want. Dolores _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:54:44 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Grief, from one to many Thank you Laurel... First, I want to thank you for helping me stay deeply in touch with grief I am feeling now... and I also want to say that your writing style speaks loudly to me of the feminine experience. A few months ago I read Mythic Worlds, Modern Words: Joseph Campbell on James Joyce... a mind numbing experience, for sure... Campbell quoted a passage in which Joyce expresses the thoughts of one of the female characters. When I read it, I thought *yes, that's exactly right! how did he know?* Your writing style, Laurel, reminds me of that and speaks deeply and clearly to my own feminine experience. << You havent elaborated, but you mentioned leaving your sons, that must have been so hard for you, my soon to be ex makes threats about taking her from me, that is a grief I dont think I would ever get over. I'd like to hear about it if you want to talk Im going through much the same thing, and its very confusing, and it hurts alot. Write to me if you want. >> Since I did put it out there, on the list, I will try to give a somewhat brief elaboration for the list and yes, write to you. The List... the entire internet, really is like a talk show as well as a fish bowl... and putting personal feelings and experiences can have another effect, as well... unintentionally flying off and hurting those I would not want to hurt. I don't want to add to anyone's pain, yet sometimes it can't be avoided... for me, experiencing the pain, and letting myself just have the pain has been healing... the grief seems to me to be the blood coming from the wound, and maybe it's just better to let it flow, rather than try to put a tourniquet on it. Cyber space has put me more deeply in touch with my soul as I think it has with you... when I realized how far away from my soul I had come... in my marriage, my following exactly what I thought the *system* asked of me, my choice to try to create a Leave it to Beaver fantasy 20 years ago... the grief over all those years of trying to do things the *right* way may be the deepest grief I feel of all. I don't blame or shame my soon ex, or anyone... I see it more in a sickness of the culture itself. My soon ex is in as much pain as I am, maybe more... his way to handle it is just different than mine. I think I tried to be the world's ultimate mother for 16 years, but I was a child pretending to be a grown up. After I began seeing what my soul was calling for, I knew that it had to be me who left the marital home a year ago, the one I chose and and put together... because my sons (almost 14 and 18) needed a deeper bond with their father... at this point in their lives, there is just something that I as a woman can't give them, and I would have been interferring with that bond if I had tried to keep them with me. Doing that would have reinforced a dependence on me I don't want them to have (every mother who has deeply felt the maternal bond will know what I'm talking about)... there is just something masculine that I can't give them. So, I moved out... not far, closer physically to them actually, during school hours. My sons spend a little time in my new home, but much of the time I spend with them is at the house. My role there is a dance between what could have been and what isn't anymore... it's a dance to some strange music of grief, feeling the rightness of what I am doing, yet constantly listening for wrong notes... if I hear many wrong notes, I try not to swoop in like an avenging angel, but the potential is always there. Knowing that I am doing what is the most right way for us and is my choice does not remove the grief... stimulated especially in that home by flashbacks of my sons as babies, their faces, their soft vulnerable skin, their eyes full of wonder and curiosity, back to the present and seeing them as the young men they are now and are becoming, as if time means nothing... the immense wound in me that I try to cover with scar tissue is pierced occasionally by a few who also understand grief and loss. My grandparents and parents have all passed away (using a hopeful term) so I guess I have been prepared for my path. But when the scar tissue is pierced, the loss of one thing, *feels* symbolic of all I've lost... particularly when I'm in this transitional time, waiting for divorce, not yet divorced... like being in a cocoon, which must feel very dark, lonely, and scarey for a caterpillar... it must have some idea that it will become a butterfly... or why would it spend so much effort building its cocoon? This may sound rambling, too many weird metaphors, not make much sense, or too dramatic... but I've had a glimpse of what it could be as a butterfly, and I'm willing to spend the time in the cocoon, going through the hurt and confusion, (and also I know there is insight and joy and wonder) and just trusting my soul. Today I would feel just a little better if the sun would come out for awhile, and I will write to you Laurel, this week end. Sheryl _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 02:51:11 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Who am I? In-Reply-To: <199611131415.JAA18722@zork.tiac.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable holly, > For me, this realization occurred most profoundly when I was pregnant. > Just can't intellectualize yourself out of all the changes --both in = body > and soul --- that occur there! Would a virtual pregnancy be the same? As a man I have only seen these strong pysical changes second hand in women i have been close to. Without diminishing the real thing, giving birth is something that i feel i=20 holly, > For me, this realization occurred most profoundly when I was pregnant. > Just can't intellectualize yourself out of all the changes --both in = body > and soul --- that occur there! Would a virtual pregnancy be the same? As a man I have only seen these strong physical changes second hand in women i have been close to. Without diminishing the real thing, giving birth is something that I feel I am close to with the projects in my life . . . I become pregnant with an idea, it then transforms my life . . . virtual pregnacy? =20 Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 02:58:04 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Sheryl, grief a very strange thing In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19961115085831.234fb7bc@mail.easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dolores, > There is a cemetary in London , Marx is buried there (I'll send my = regards > walter next time Im there)..its very famous and very gothic -like I = said the > victorians knew how to live up a good death.=20 Do that! I have a fondness for that Marx grave . . . though I have never been there. I recall it from a movie that I really liked years ago, Morgan, a Suitable Case for Treatment. I think you'd like it! (though its a bit dated). I know I am responding to a side track . . .I am reading and hearing the grief and pain of separation in your posts . . . have been through that, 18 yrs ago. Well out of the other side of it . . .=20 The reference to Marx stirs up more current, thoughts and feelings . . . We have just had a book / paper produced here by the Department of Health on Depression. They have distributed it widely free of charge in our new user pay economy. It is propaganda. The idea is to provide an opiate for the masses for something they call depression . . . Whatever happened to: Alienation Despair Mourning Misery Estrangement Disaffection Rage=20 Jealousy Despondency All related to life, not just some clinical condition So much for my side track! Perhaps not so much off the track given the title of the thread. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 22:15:03 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Re: Who am I? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >As a man I have only seen these strong pysical changes second >hand in women i have been close to. Without diminishing the real >thing, giving birth is something that i feel i > Oh, after I after read your comment, I realized I didn't mean to exclude the men involved. Personally (no science here, just belief) I think something does happen physically and psychologically to the men involved in the birthing process.... I used the example of pregnancy more to explain how linked I sense my body is to my psyche, although I may not have said that ten years ago. Are there examples that are fitting for men -- physical changes have enormous changes on the psyche? Of course, chronic or acute illness affects both genders .... As for the question of virtual/ not virtual/real , I need to think. Your comment about the creation of ideas leads me to wonder if the term "virtual" as in "not tangible" is an inappropriate definition, because something not tangible, like an idea, can be >real< and is does not represent anything but itself (it does not mimic, or act in place of.) Therefore, how do we understand virtual? As representative? Does it fluctuate, a process of the individual...... Just thoughts.... Glad you mentioned something. Sheryl,thinking of you..... Holly _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 06:07:06 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Radical psychology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, URL: http://www2.elibrary.com/id/54/173/getdoc.cgi?id=3D54143110x0y675&Form=3D= EN&Button=3DMEM Comment: =20 Radical psychology? Note the elibrary requires membership, you may need to join and search for this, use key words "psychology" and look for an article called: Writings for a Liberation Psychology. =20 On the theme I have been making the odd comment on here, this article even mentions Marx. This is a review of a book, by a psychologist from El Salvador Ignacio Martin-Baro. He does the sort of thing for psychology that Frere does for education by the sound of it. I like to think as the psychotherapy that I do and favour being more about the soul than the self . . . and at the same time radical in its empowerment of people. =20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:50:38 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Thomas Bayes Hi all and Walter, >The future of software may lie in the obscure theories of an 18th century cleric named Thomas Bayes< Well, I looked it up. Th. Bayes was a mathematician who formulated an important problem of the theory of probability, the a posteriori probability. Later his work became very famous in the theory of decision making. The "theorem of Bayes" is in the textbooks. So it is by no means an obscure theory, doesn't have anything to do with theology (only his fights with Bishop Berkely). How it compares to collaborative filtering, I don't know. But, whatever is based on Bayes is on firm mathematical grounds. From the previous communications I learnt to my surprise that a lot of relationships broke up or are breaking up with people who - on the other hand - are professionally engaged in mending and repairing fragile relationships. But it is probably a "Baron von Munchhausen" symptom. He could not pull himself out of the swamp. I looked at the WEBB site of PWP, and the anectdotal section is in good shape. I missed the other sections (was thrown off the net). I have to look at it again. Still, the whole project remains a mystery to me. But I shall try to contribute in spite of this. Regards to everyone, FRITZ PS.: To NZ Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB): Happy listening! _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:01:57 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "aigle@sk.sympatico.ca" Subject: Weekend musings about silence Comments: cc: aigle@orion.sk.sympatico.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter and all, I have been busy doing very little this weekend and have therefore found a few moments with which to engage myself in conversation with the silence. Many of you will remember a poem I wrote in the past (and posted here) called *Silence is a time for whispering*, I have now followed up that poem which looked at Internet dialogue and its silences with another poem about silence: silence echoes loudly drowning the wails and wimperings of abandonmnet a mask silver with eyes oval orbits mirrors an outer world behind the silence and the mask a faint thread of light held hostage (Robert de Cyberie 15.11.1996) As I wrote this, I had occasion to think of Jung's invitation to hold the thread of light, that thread of tension through pain and doubt until the psyche can introduce a third way, the soul's way. Now to return to re-reading Rilke's, LETTERS TO A YOUNG POET. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:09:10 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Welcome. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome to Psybernet, In the last month there have been about 20 new people arrive on the list, and I would like to welcome all those who have never had a sense of being welcomed here. I hope you find this a pleasant and useful placde to be. Let me give you some words on the state of play in the list. =20 I have posted up the description of the list, that gives us our "prime directive" in this sometimes broad ranging list. This year has been an interesting one for Psybernet. It has moved from its three year life on a private listserv on a BBS to the current Lsoft one, which has been a delight for me as the owner/operator. The availability of archives and services has been enhanced and simplified. =20 My attention and that of many participants in Psybernet sometimes drifts away from this list to other projects. Last year, and early this year it was the AION Reading Group, then there was the DreamEvent co led by Charles Cameron and myself. We achieve an enormous amount of learning about the psychology of telecomputing by our work in these other projects and there is a sharing of that learning here. To avoid abandoning the list with yet another project we are doing a project on the list PWP, standing for Psybernet Web Project is a list within a list here using the prefix PWP: for the posts by the eight participants. =20 You can see what we have done in the archives, or=20 http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/project.htm This project is difficult. The writing up of the web side has been more difficult than I anticipated especially as I have had some unexpected things in my life off line, which I have given priority. =20 Never mind, Psybernet can go on with its work, as it is. There may be a difficulty with that however as by doing the PWP here there is some fragmentation in my opinion, party because the project itself is very slow. =20 All this is grist for our work here however . . . getting into difficulty and then out of it is how we learn about the psyche here! About how to facilitate lists. Let us hear from new people, by way of introduction! Let us also hear from people who do not want to reintroduce themselves again in the cycle. Perhaps something about ones experience online. Here and elsewhere. Also an URL to an earlier introduction would be great! Also there are some worthwhile discussions on the go here, and some that people have started and had little response to, dont hesitate to look in the archives, and respond to something of interest to you -- time is a barrier we can play around with here. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:08:56 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == Psybernet Mailing List == MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =3D=3D Psybernet Mailing List =3D=3D Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become=20 conscious of the effects of email groups and lists on=20 group life and the psyche. The list is a starting point=20 for depth psychological work on the net, exploring and=20 defining its directions.=20 Topics include:=20 The art of leadership in communication networks. =20 Creating communication environments. Gender issues. =20 Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths,=20 personal identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious. =20 Special focus on how these psychological phenomena=20 relate to cyberspace.=20 Through our discussion here we learn directly from our=20 experience of the medium. We voice that learning. =20 =46orming relationships of a collegial nature around our=20 psychological net interests is an important part of the=20 work.=20 The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which=20 includes more specific psychological explorations and=20 facilitated email groups. The methods here are those of=20 experimentation and experiential research. The list is=20 a place for collaboration in the development of ethical=20 depth work of a psychological nature on the Internet. =20 Announcements about various projects will be made in=20 this list. The Psybernet web pages can be found at: http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html=20 The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman. Discussion of=20 how the list is facilitated is integral to its purpose. =20 ~~~ Subscription can be done from the Web at: http://www.netspace.org/cgi-bin/lwgate/Psyber-L/ Other commands can be easily executed from there. =20 Archives can be viewed and searched by email. ~~~ Web Archives. The archives can be viewed and searched on-line at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html ~~~ To subscribe and access archives using email only: Psyber-L is archived and these are available to with an=20 INDEX PSYBER-L command to the listserv. To subscribe to PSYBER-L, send the a command to: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM=20 in the BODY of e-mail: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname =46or example: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive=20 confirmation request, then an acknowledgment,=20 followed by a welcome message. To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to:=20 LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM =20 In the body of the email write: =20 SIGNOFF PSYBER-L Owner: Walter Logeman =20 Last updated 20 November, 1996 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:36:19 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Re: Weekend musings about silence In-Reply-To: <328F8B55.4DA5@sk.sympatico.ca> from "aigle@sk.sympatico.ca" at Nov 17, 96 03:01:57 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert, I loved your poem; the silence it describes has a calm, serene and deeply pleasant air to it... I had forgotten how comforting and pleasant a meditative, love-filled silence can be; thanks for reminding me. Steve grkinfo2@udcf.gla.ac.uk steve@linkcafe.co.uk [preferred] > > silence > echoes loudly > drowning the wails and wimperings > of abandonmnet > > a mask > silver > with eyes oval orbits > mirrors an outer world > > behind the silence > and the mask > a faint thread of light > held hostage > > (Robert de Cyberie 15.11.1996) > > > As I wrote this, I had occasion to think of Jung's invitation to hold > the thread of light, that thread of tension through pain and doubt > until the psyche can introduce a third way, the soul's way. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 20:56:41 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: PWP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter and PWP In your recent welcome to some new members to the list you wrote: >To avoid abandoning the list with yet another project we are >doing a project on the list PWP, standing for Psybernet Web >Project is a list within a list here using the prefix PWP: for >the posts by the eight participants. > >This project is difficult. The writing up of the web side has >been more difficult than I anticipated especially as I have had >some unexpected things in my life off line, which I have given >priority. > >Never mind, Psybernet can go on with its work, as it is. There >may be a difficulty with that however as by doing the PWP here >there is some fragmentation in my opinion, party because the >project itself is very slow. > I agree the project is difficult and I think you may have hit a nail on the head when you said "some fragmentation" because I think that's what I've been reacting to without realizing it. I know I've been very silent but some of that's because I'm thinking "who do I respond to? I'm having difficulty knowing what's PWP and what's not; and the uncertainty has kept me silent when I might not have been otherwise. Also, I think I'm reacting to discussions which are not face to face which is something fairly new to me. As a Psychodramatist I pay close attention to non verbal clues as to the other person's feelings and intentions and that's not possible in psyberland. I don't have an answer as to how to overcome this (if it's possible), but I would certainly like to hear other's opinions. While I'm at it another thing I've been reacting to with my silence is that some of the discussions have been recondite and of a very intellectual nature rather then discussions on a feeling level. That may be me though, because I'm more familiar with groups that operate at the feeling level, so perhaps I just need to adapt. Once or twice (quite far back) I posted a note dealing with some of my feelings about something and for the most part no one paid any attention, so I thought, well maybe no one's interested and I returned to my shell for awhile. Testing the water again. Janell > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 05:54:19 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Psybernet Dynamics [was PWP] In-Reply-To: <199611200156.UAA23736@mh101.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Janell > I know I've been very silent but some > of that's because I'm thinking "who do I respond to? I'm having = difficulty > knowing what's PWP and what's not; and the uncertainty has kept me = silent > when I might not have been otherwise.=20 This medium is very different from f2f groups. One aspect is that there can be several conversations going on at once here. That is fine. If people are not interested in this *meta* discussion about the process here then they do not need to respond and I do not feel ignored or neglected. It may also be that the *interested* people are not here, on holiday, making love, or cooking! I got quite a buzz once from someone reading a whole years worth of Psybernet and getting the feel of who I was from that. =20 The software allows us to have these separate conversations. That is why I like people to use the subject line with some thought. It is nice to keep the heading the same for a while so that that it is easy to follow a thread . . . less fragmentation in a fragmented world. Also to chang it when we really have gone off onto a definite new thread. I have kept this one out of the PWP, as I think it is a discussion about the whole and I am toying with "Psybernet Dynamics" which could cover a lot, and yet allow for some focus in a thread. =20 > Also, I think I'm reacting to > discussions which are not face to face which is something fairly new to= me. > As a Psychodramatist I pay close attention to non verbal clues as to = the > other person's feelings and intentions and that's not possible in = psyberland. Hmm, what about roles. The psychodrama concept of role includes three aspects the thinking or construct, the feeling, the action. Roles are then named in some way, sometimes psychodramatically (metaphorically) father, host, celebrant , blob, adventurer, stirrer, geek. Then we add the quality of the role: *passive* host, exuberant geek. =20 I'd say the roles emerge here as well as anywhere, as well as in "Wuthering Heights", or any other novel, if the roles emerge fully then the affect is clear. =20 > Once or twice (quite far back) I posted a note > dealing with some of my feelings about something and for the most part = no > one paid any attention, so I thought, well maybe no one's interested = and I > returned to my shell for awhile. >=20 > Testing the water again. I think that is great, and I hope you find it to your liking, but if not, what the hell! State again what you are wanting heard, give us the URL! I think . . . to use more psychodrama language: It is all in the warm-up! With a decent warm-up you can get a thread going here on any topic. It is true that one can be ignored. In fact people can "delete" what you say, some people can even filter us out! Some people . . . my friend Dan, just goes to his Psybernet folder and deletes all our gems if it gets to full without reading any! On the other hand, I have also seen him get gripped by a discussion from time to time. =20 I better stop! Some people just ignore all long posts! =20 Janell, I hope this is "facillitative". In what way is this role of mine . . . just to finish on the psychodrama note: adequate, and in what way is it underdeveloped? What would we these roles we are in? Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 06:21:20 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Weekend musings about silence In-Reply-To: <12589.199611192236@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve,=20 I am no poet [other than in a metphorical sense! ] but my take on roberts poem was quite other . . . not to knock what you see or to presume to know roberts intentions: the light . . . the truth? . . . what is real? . . . held hostage by a mask and silence . . . a silence that drowns out our feelings of abandonment? =20 To me this speaks of the way in which this medium can be harsh. To get no response, as Janell has just spoken of, to her feelings, is does not give one the sense of being in a place filled with love. It does require a lot of self love to hold onto the light in the silence, in fact we project into that silence . . . perhaps i project more harshness than you do. =20 It may seem strange that i say this just as i have been speaking in the post i just made (Psybernet Dynamics) that in the silence one is not necessarily abandoned or ignored in a personal way. But then one is not being loved either . . . not quite done but i gotta go! Walter > Robert, >=20 > I loved your poem; the silence it describes has a calm, serene > and deeply pleasant air to it... I had forgotten how comforting and > pleasant a meditative, love-filled silence can be; >=20 > thanks for reminding me. >=20 > Steve >=20 > grkinfo2@udcf.gla.ac.uk > steve@linkcafe.co.uk [preferred] > > > > silence > > echoes loudly > > drowning the wails and wimperings > > of abandonmnet > > > > a mask > > silver > > with eyes oval orbits > > mirrors an outer world > > > > behind the silence > > and the mask > > a faint thread of light > > held hostage >=20 > > > > (Robert de Cyberie 15.11.1996) > > > > > > As I wrote this, I had occasion to think of Jung's invitation= to hold > > the thread of light, that thread of tension through pain and doubt > > until the psyche can introduce a third way, the soul's way. >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >=20 >=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:43:26 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Re: Weekend musings about silence Hey all... I'd like to say about a billion things, but Walter, I think you're on target... and Janelle, I am so glad you are testing the water again... I hope you continue. I'd like to add to *one not being loved either* Walter... one also does not know if he or she is dealing with souls or facades. I admire those who have dared to show their souls, even a little. For those who choose to remain facades, to me that *is* who you are. (Thanks, Holly) Anticipating more silence... Sheryl << Steve, I am no poet [other than in a metphorical sense! ] but my take on roberts poem was quite other . . . not to knock what you see or to presume to know roberts intentions: the light . . . the truth? . . . what is real? . . . held hostage by a mask and silence . . . a silence that drowns out our feelings of abandonment? To me this speaks of the way in which this medium can be harsh. To get no response, as Janell has just spoken of, to her feelings, is does not give one the sense of being in a place filled with love. It does require a lot of self love to hold onto the light in the silence, in fact we project into that silence . . . perhaps i project more harshness than you do. It may seem strange that i say this just as i have been speaking in the post i just made (Psybernet Dynamics) that in the silence one is not necessarily abandoned or ignored in a personal way. But then one is not being loved either . . . >> _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:58:34 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Psybernet Dynamics [was PWP] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter: Thanks for the gentle and very facillitative comments they are a help. When I was speaking of feelings I was only focusing on that very limited aspect of the psychodramatic process. I agree with you totally on the aspect of roles but perhaps it's more difficult to notice the roles because of the fragmentation and the lack of face to face contact. For intance, your role as list facillitator is more clearly defined (at least to me) then some of the other roles that individuals may be filling or drifting in and out of. I think I can live with that but maybe there's a development (or warm-up) time needed. Perhaps encouragement would help. I've experienced encouragment from yourself and some of the women on the list but nothing from any of the other men on the list (as far as I can recall). Why? > >Hmm, what about roles. The psychodrama concept of role includes >three aspects the thinking or construct, the feeling, the action. >Roles are then named in some way, sometimes psychodramatically >(metaphorically) father, host, celebrant , blob, adventurer, >stirrer, geek. Then we add the quality of the role: *passive* >host, exuberant geek. > >I'd say the roles emerge here as well as anywhere, as well as in >"Wuthering Heights", or any other novel, if the roles emerge >fully then the affect is clear. I'm not sure what I'm wanting heard, all I know is I want to be included and I'm having some difficulty finding out how. What are you meaning by the URL, I'm wondering if you're assuming that I have an internet page (I don't) or if it's something else? I don't mean to sound harsh with that question but I sometimes get turned off by jargon, which I get the *feeling* this is. > >I think that is great, and I hope you find it to your liking, but >if not, what the hell! State again what you are wanting heard, >give us the URL! I think . . . to use more psychodrama language: >It is all in the warm-up! With a decent warm-up you can get a >thread going here on any topic. It is true that one can be >ignored. > >Janell, I hope this is "facillitative". In what way is this role >of mine . . . just to finish on the psychodrama note: adequate, >and in what way is it underdeveloped? What would we these roles >we are in? > >Walter I'm sorry about your last question but I'm not quite sure what you meant by it, but I believe your other role (as faccilitator) is very adequate and being handled in, as I said earlier, in a very gentle manner. Thanks for listening. Still *testing* the water. Janell > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:58:37 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Weekend musings about silence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl: Thanks for the continuing encouragement, it really helps! I think your comment below sums up my feelings about knowing who I'm dealing with even better then I was able to. I also agree with Walter's comments in his note to Steve, it helped me even more to accept some of my dilemma. > >I'd like to add to *one not being loved either* Walter... one also does not >know if he or she is dealing with souls or facades. I admire those who have >dared to show their souls, even a little. For those who choose to remain >facades, to me that *is* who you are. > >(Thanks, Holly) > >Anticipating more silence... >Sheryl Starting to enjoy the water. Janell > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:55:44 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Eagle Organization: Young Living Essential Oils Subject: Re: poem Comments: To: Steve Murray Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit COSMIC FAMILY We are fantastic creatures you and I with our feet on the earth and hearts and heads in the sky -- We are not faceless bananas on an anonymous tree you are you and I am me awakening members of a cosmic family of gods. Eagle /etc/aliases wrote: > > Hi folks, > > found this poem on the Celestine list & thought I'd > share it here > > just my way of 'breaking the silence' tonight > > It's from an electronic book called > > 'The gathering of Eagles' > > [it's not copyrighted] > > Cheers > > Steve > > --- > > Pockets [an excerpt] > > We take a closer look > and find > a society wherein dwell those > who live by the Golden Rule. > Their heart's door always open > to the seven rays of truth. > > The rays that flow through > and gently ease out > the cold shadow > of misunderstanding. > > Where: > the doctor of medicine > works beside the gardener, > the scientist kneels down to assist > the teachers of children, > the welder has time for the artist, > and the baker stands beside the midwife > and helps bring forth a new loaf > from Nature's oven; > and each of them share their slice > of the bread of knowledge. > > Their needs are basic > and never found wanting; > and pleasures > once sought after by grabbing > are discovered......... > uncovered > by the magic words > "THANK YOU!" > there are times > when I fly with old friends, > I feel I'm looked upon > as a threatening force > with designs on upsetting > their easy little world > held together by fear, > fear of self-discovery. > and inside > my heart cries out > "I once lived where you live, > cried > where you cry, > feared > where you fear, > and loved > what little > you now love. > I too > have dreamt > of snuffing out the Light > of someone's candle. > I've tasted > of the bitter fruit > and had it stick within my throat > when stealing > not just from an enemy > but from my closest friend. > Please.... > don't flee from me > and hide your face. > I come not as > "the perfect stranger" > but rather as a friend > who knows the road > and knows the price > of sleeping at the wheel. > > I live the Lives of many, > I walk the path > that leads > right through the heart, > I feel the joy of strangers > and I am happy. > I feel their sadness > and their frustrations > and I am sad. > Sad because.... > I can only > give a reason > for happiness, > not happiness itself! > > --- > > Steve Murray > grkinfo2@udcf.gla.ac.uk > > My love is like a storybook story > But it's as real as the feelings I feel - Theme from the Princess Bride > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 06:52:22 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Psybernet Dynamics In-Reply-To: <199611210358.WAA27304@mh101.infi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Janell, > of roles but perhaps it's more difficult to notice the roles because of= the > fragmentation and the lack of face to face contact. For intance, your = role > as list facillitator is more clearly defined (at least to me) then some= of > the other roles that individuals may be filling or drifting in and out = of. I > think I can live with that but maybe there's a development (or warm-up)= time > needed. =20 Yes, the warm-up ebbs and flows here, more flow now as we stick with this and have some regular dialogue, which I have been unable to maintain recently. I was thinking of the social roles such as facilitator, and even more of (jargon) psychodramatic roles. For example what is the role of someone who tests the water . . . a tentative swimmer? What if the water is not water but a group of psybernauts? a cautious researcher? What is my role in response? Kind professor? I am responding to the question that I asked : =20 >> What would we [call ] these roles >> we are in? I'd left out a word there, no wonder you could not understand me! ~~~ > What are you meaning by the URL, I'm wondering if you're assuming that= I > have an internet page (I don't) or if it's something else? I don't mean= to > sound harsh with that question but I sometimes get turned off by = jargon, > which I get the *feeling* this is. It is all right! I am not sure what the letters stand for but it is the word used for an internet address . . . such as=20 http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/demoweb/url-primer.html Which we can both learn something from! The sort I was thinking of is to link us back to one of your earlier posts where you spoke of feelings you want heard, such as: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/wa.exe?A2=3Dind9609&L=3Dpsyber-l&D=3D0&H=3D0&T= =3D1&O=3DT&F=3D&P=3D7099 Which is one of your messages from the past! I love the way we can draw on our own words here like this, and I hope we will use this technology more. > Still *testing* the water. And me still doing my professor number? =20 Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:15:50 +1100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Miles Thompson Subject: Re: Psybernet Dynamics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, Just de-hiding, and playing the role of "annoying geek" for a second here... >> What are you meaning by the URL, I'm wondering if you're assuming that I >> have an internet page (I don't) or if it's something else? I don't mean to > >It is all right! I am not sure what the letters stand for but it >is the word used for an internet address . . . URL is a TLA ("Three Letter Acronym") which stands for "Uniform Resource Locator". Not that anyone cares, but I guess I just want to say, hello, I'm alive, and I appreciate all'ya posts.- though it makes me *feel* a little like a guilty party for not being more involved. Will write more soon, Miles _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:39:30 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Don Corriveau Subject: WebEd Comments: To: Clinical-Psychologists@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, PSYCHOEDUCATIONAL_ASSESS@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU, CLINICAL-PSYCHOLOGISTS@Listserv.NoDak.Edu, psy-media@listp.apa.org, psycho-pharm@PsyCom.Net, psychoanalytic-studies@sheffield.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As a listmember, I'd like to share my excitement as Provost. Please see announcement below: ANNOUNCEMENT WebEd is the first Internet University dedicated solely to providing continuing education experiences to a wide variety of professions. Our Internet courses offer a quality of training unmatched my conventional home study programs. Our Internet formats allow participants to work in the convenience of their home but allow considerable levels of interaction between "students" and "faculty." Tour our facility to view a variety of courses offered through several formats. Please take a quick tour of our Web Pages at HTTP://CEUS.COM or call (888) GET-CEUs. We are presently recruiting new faculty. Anyone potentially interested in faculty positions should Email the Provost at DR-C@CEUS.COM. WebEd has no geographical boundaries and is truly a world wide entity. We are currently in negotiations with several continuing education granting authorities and have many new courses slated to appear in 1997. Thank you for your time. Donald P. Corriveau, Ph.D. Provost, WebEd P.S. If you manage your own Web Site, please consider a brief mention of our site on your Web pages. We would be happy to do likewise _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:46:16 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: PWP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, everyone .... This is just a one-sided, "feeling-oriented" posting which attempts to express why I have fallen into silence on this list despite my continued interest in the topic. I was having a great time on the list posting and responding in the beginning. Walter, I neither thought you abandoned us or over-moderated .... I am actually impressed by your web page programming and can imagine how much work is involved to make it run on-line. I was stopped short in my tracks, though, with the "topics are boring...." and "why PWP/non-PWP..." and the "too academic" postings. Usually, when I run across differing opinions, or postings that are too long, or topics that are of only passing interest, I skim them, and put them in my PSYBER folder. I assumed that others were doing the same to mine.... But somehow, when I read the comments I mentioned above, I became paralyzed. I thought perhaps I have missed the point of the group. Maybe I am just some new interloper who really has not caught on to the "trick" of the group. Maybe the list was (is) psychodrama .... maybe.... So I decided to wait, watch, listen, and see what would emerge. Perhaps if there was a "theme" I could catch on. Maybe, if I sat back, I could see what direction the group was supposed to take.... But I can't get the gist of it. I have enjoyed the synchronicity conversations, although I have little to add anymore..... I read the poetry and appreciate the discussion of communication .... but I am still unclear as to the whats and hows of the group. What is boring? What is too academic? Who cares if it is PWP or not? Why not think about a list of topics? Does considering a list prevent anyone for bringing in a topic not on the list? Does it prevent the sharing of feelings? And feelings, I know I respond to such postings in my heart, but am shy about saying anything that might be interpreted as judgemental or critical about something so personal.... Trying to sort out my own confusion ... Holly > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:24:33 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Re-enchanting your virtual soul Subject: Re: PWP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Holly, Janell, and others, Thank you for working hard to evoke a response from the rest of us. How much response will there be? I couldn't presume to answer that question with any sense of authority. Do I think there will be a significant volume of authentic response? No! ... and by authentic response I take the I-Thou model as presented by Martin Buber (no this isn't academic.intellectual posturing). As for posting *feeling-oriented* posts, I have seen presented and have seen very little response to them. Were the poems feeling oriented? Were Bent's posts feeling-oriented? Were Sheryl and Laurel's posts feeling-oriented? Why the paucity of response? An answer to the last question would explain the declining number of feeling-oriented posts. HG> I thought perhaps HG> I have missed the point of the group. No, you didn't. As you have seen in Walter's recent post concerning the mission of PSYBER-L, your interpretation does in fact fit in very well. What we see developing is something else. HG> Maybe the list HG> was (is) psychodrama .... maybe.... Maybe it doesn't know what it is. I think fear, anger, lack of trust, and the sense of anarchy is stilling many voices out there in Psyberland. Because we were so open in our early dialogues when trust was in great abundance, we said things that made us vulnerable. Then, when our words became open to even those who are not part of our community, be it by papers by members or through the publically accessible archives, the sense of trust disappeared. And, silence became a regular characteristic of this place. Some rail against the silence like loons railing against the still and vacant silences of northern lakes. Some felt that a retreat to learned statements as the best path as one never knows anymore who will read your words or how they will be used ... thus the strutting and posturing behind academic facades (yepp, I can see the red starting to rise, and the heat start to build ... what cheek! ... the nerve of the guy ...). Yes, confusion is a good description of our state as a community. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:53:12 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Psybernet Dynamics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter: Thanks again for the kind professor comments, I really appreciate them because many on the professors I've known haven't been so kind. I wouldn't call myself a cautious researcher but I would say a tentative swimmer in psyberland, tentative because I don't yet know how safe it is. > >Yes, the warm-up ebbs and flows here, more flow now as we stick >with this and have some regular dialogue, which I have been >unable to maintain recently. I was thinking of the social roles >such as facilitator, and even more of (jargon) psychodramatic >roles. For example what is the role of someone who tests the >water . . . a tentative swimmer? What if the water is not water >but a group of psybernauts? a cautious researcher? What is my >role in response? Kind professor? I too love the way we can draw on our own words here and I also hope we will use this technology more. >I love the way we can draw on our own words here like this, and I >hope we will use this technology more. > Starting to like the water. Janell > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:53:14 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: PWP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Holly, Robert, and others I agree in part with both of you. Holly, you said very well some of what I was *feeling* but afraid to express because of vulnerability. I too have been unsure of what was being said or why, but hesitated to say anything. I just realized I asked a question about encouragement in an earlier (this week) post and I think Robert and Walter have been the only two men to offer any encouragement. Again, why? Are men slow to offer encouragement or state their feelings, or am I wrong if I think yes? > Thank you for working hard to evoke a response from the rest of >us. How much response will there be? I couldn't presume to answer that >question with any sense of authority. Do I think there will be a >significant volume of authentic response? No! ... and by authentic >response I take the I-Thou model as presented by Martin Buber (no this >isn't academic.intellectual posturing). I too have seen *feeling-oriented posts presented and little response to them, and I also wonder about the *paucity* (thanks for the spelling, Robert) of response? > > As for posting *feeling-oriented* posts, I have seen presented >and have seen very little response to them. Were the poems feeling >oriented? Were Bent's posts feeling-oriented? Were Sheryl and Laurel's >posts feeling-oriented? Why the paucity of response? An answer to the >last question would explain the declining number of feeling-oriented >posts. > >HG> I thought perhaps >HG> I have missed the point of the group. > > No, you didn't. As you have seen in Walter's recent post >concerning the mission of PSYBER-L, your interpretation does in fact fit >in very well. What we see developing is something else. > >HG> Maybe the list >HG> was (is) psychodrama .... maybe.... Here, I think you might have hit the nail on the head when you say fear, anger, lack of trust, and the sense of anarchy. How can you trust someone when you don't know if their safe to be vulnerable with? Coming to the list not that long ago I've been very slowly *testing the water* and after a couple of minor set backs am beginning to think it might be safe, and I might like it. > > Maybe it doesn't know what it is. I think fear, anger, lack of >trust, and the sense of anarchy is stilling many voices out there in >Psyberland. Because we were so open in our early dialogues when trust >was in great abundance, we said things that made us vulnerable. Then, >when our words became open to even those who are not part of our >community, be it by papers by members or through the publically >accessible archives, the sense of trust disappeared. And, silence became >a regular characteristic of this place. Some rail against the silence >like loons railing against the still and vacant silences of northern >lakes. Some felt that a retreat to learned statements as the best path >as one never knows anymore who will read your words or how they will be >used ... thus the strutting and posturing behind academic facades (yepp, >I can see the red starting to rise, and the heat start to build ... what >cheek! ... the nerve of the guy ...). *Academic facades* I like the way you put that Robert. Right on!! > >Yes, confusion is a good description of our state as a community. That's for the sense of clarity in the confusion Robert, it's very welcome!!! Continuing to *test the water* Janell > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:42:20 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Re-enchanting your virtual soul Subject: Synchronicity: PWP/PPP/SLIP vs ICHAT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cyberie says, "Silence is a synchronic event as well isn't it?" Cyberie glances around the room to see if anyone notices that his socks don't match. Holly says, "I mean, when no one is talking ... aren't we doing the same thing together ... I mean isn't it amazing that we all stop thinking at the same time?" Cyberie then notices that he isn't even wearing socks. Pumpkin is lighting candles in the night with a bemused grin. Walter is huddled under the keyboard looking for the PWP connection. Janell enters. Holly says, "HI, Janell." Cyberie says, "Hi, 'nell" Walter says, "Janell? Is that on excite, alta vista ...? Oh, hi Janell :)" Sheryl grins at Janell. ... Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 04:45:34 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: PWP In-Reply-To: <199611211546.KAA17587@zork.tiac.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Holly, all in the PWP, and others listening in, > I was stopped short in my tracks, though, with the "topics are = boring...." I am pleased you raise this . . . who was not struck in their tracks? I was! At the same time I was slowing down here for other reasons but that post was one of them. I am thinking of Delores / Laurel post which spoke of beauty in the list and the smell of burning email in the morning. =20 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/wa.exe?A2=3Dind9610&L=3Dpsyber-l&D=3D0&H=3D0&T= =3D1&O=3DT&F=3D&P=3D1000 To do the "list of topics" thing is hard without an encouraging audience outside the fishbowl. The encouragment is needed . . . and yet as you said Holly, Delores has a powerful cybervoice (and cybersilence too!), we listen to eloquence about the burning email followed by the satire? of the dog bowl! I would not wish Dolores less powerful or absent. In fact initially there was some expectation (by Dolores) that i would ask her to leave the list which i have no intention of doing.=20 Now . . . psychodramatists! What are the roles involved in all these dynamics. Who is who in the Apocalypse Now theme? What are the dynamics of the fish / dog bowl? =20 > . . . I became paralyzed. =20 Silence as paralysis? > So I decided to wait, watch, listen, and see what would emerge. = Perhaps if > there was a "theme" I could catch on. =20 The theme I see right now is this: =3D=3D Order & Chaos =3D=3D We speak of it in education in the PWP, and then we are confronted with it here in the list as a whole. We begin to value anecdotes and flow, and not being told what to do, and when it happens here, right in the list, when there is some "education" of a very free flowing nature, it is difficult . . . paralysis sets in (no offence to anyone intended, I am speaking of my own, unless others also claim it.) Order and chaos also has the gender aspect; male female, and the feeling / thought dynamic . . . > Maybe, if I sat back, I could see > what direction the group was supposed to take.... Perhaps it is just going in the direction it is meant to. Not neat & tidy, and with some agony even for some of us (I am speaking for me if no one else!) I have just read through some of the posts around the time the Psybernet Mailing List as a whole began again and we had interaction in and out of the fishbowl, and there is a lot of synchronicity (not just in our talk) but in the events on the list and what we are speaking of in the PWP. =20 And the alliance between themes and process continues, with the poems and the discussion on silence. =20 > . . . I am still unclear > as to the whats and hows of the group. =20 I must say that I don't think I will ever do a fishbowl thing again! It is just so complex. Yet there are facilities in the software to use "Topics" and to allow people to subscribe or not to various prefixes such as PWP. While we don't have it programmed in at this point we are *learning* about lists within lists. =20 > What is boring? =20 None of it was boring to me. I think our topics, are great, I would like us to work on them, to get them more crisply on the web. If we work on that in the PWP then we can move to the next step of our group. =20 > What is too > academic? =20 In my opinion none of it. I think that we can have both, either and all of the thoughts ideas feelings and actions of our participants here. And we do really. > Who cares if it is PWP or not? =20 I do. This is confusing for me. I have asked for people to write to the list to add and help shape the fixed texts, on people and topics as they are emerging on the web. This is not happening as I envisaged, perhaps because such work is repetitive, and boring to some. It is an editorial role, and do we really need an editorial committee here in Psybernet? =20 We do if we are to have the collaborative write-up on the web. =20 Would that be unsustainable in Psybernet? Perhaps. Perhaps the learning is that a list to web project at this stage can't be done, at least in a fishbowl situation? Options: a. persevere? b. program "topics" into the Psybernet Mailing List so some could unsub from PWP? c. Move the PWP out of this list into one of its own, with its eight members. d. call it a day? I'd be especially keen to hear from PWP members on this. =20 > Trying to sort out my own confusion ... Holly, you are not the only one, I suspect you are voicing a confusion that others feel, that you feel because there *is* confusion, and in my response I am also sorting out my confusion . . . perhaps we can! Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 03:45:47 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: PWP now dynamics of psybernet? Hi to all, on Nov 17th, I wrote: *I looked at the WEBB site of PWP, and the anectdotal section is in good shape. I missed the other sections (was thrown off the net). I have to look at it again. Still, the whole project remains a mystery to me. But I shall try to contribute in spite of this.* In the early stages of the PWP (Sept.) I had some difficulties to understand how it was going to operate. Walter made some comments at that time which made me think that he wanted to have the PWP project developed into some sort of academic exercise which he could present at a future conference to be held in Europe (I think) with financial support by some NZ organization. After a dozen or so of messages came in, I suggested a hierarchy of ideas. This was partly misunderstood and the next messages pointed out that psyberspace is characterized by a lack of hierarchy. So chaos prevailed which put an extra burden on Walter, because he wanted to introduce some order. HTML-links present a means of creating a two- or even multi-dimensional structure. The PWP-WEBB page is an attempt of structuring a chaotic discussion. Later I read that Walter suggested to someone that s/he should forget about PWP at all. The messages became marked less and less as "PWP". At the end of Sept. Pixie Ferris wrote: >At the risk of sounding pedantic, to my mind a tremendous asset of both PWP and Psyber-L is that the participants here are real people with active involvement in social, work, and academic lives, who choose to enrich their lives through involvement in another medium that cuts across barriers of time and space and allows for intellectual involvement. I'd like to think we are an example of the best this medium has to offer, and the PWP is a good -and somewhat unique- example. In our discussions here I see the potential for applications to many of the areas Walter posted in a separate note: educational applications, the qualities of CMC, gender issues, to name just a few. I look forward to much further discussion on these and other issues..< I approve of this fullheartedly. We have a saying which goes something like this: "If you don't know where to go to, you shouldn't be surprised if you arrive at quite a different place." The foregoing may sound as academic to some of you so I should add some more academic statements on the *feeling side*. Janell described in one of her posts that she is missing the nonverbal component, here. That's exactly what I feel, too. The silence was bemused and praised recently. But as I wrote earlier, the Psyber-L list is big but probably most people don't read the stuff and even less are responding. In a f2f group I have at least the non-verbal response to my utterances. Recently, I downloaded the LOG 9611 to find out if my messages arrived at all. Since long messages are even less likely to be read I close with a Confucius' saying: Standing by a stream, Confucius said:" Never ceasing, it flows on and on like this." FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:54:36 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: PWP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, all in the PWP, and others I'll respond to the last part of your post first. No, and maybe this is me because I don't like to quit, don't stop the PWP project, continue it and let's see what we *all* can learn from it. I know I've learned some things already, one simple one is that a project like this is difficult at best, but I don't see it as impossible. I love hearing *everyone's* opinion (both inside and outside of PWP), even if some of them are not my cup of tea (I'm also sure my opinion's about *feelings* are not everyone's cup of tea). > >> I was stopped short in my tracks, though, with the "topics are boring...." > >I am pleased you raise this . . . who was not struck in their >tracks? I was! At the same time I was slowing down here for >other reasons but that post was one of them. I am thinking of >Delores / Laurel post which spoke of beauty in the list and the >smell of burning email in the morning. > >http://home.ease.lsoft.com/wa.exe?A2=ind9610&L=psyber-l&D=0&H=0&T=1&O=T&F=&P=10 I also was stopped in my tracks by some of the confusion and I resorted to silence as well, but I'm learning in a positive way by it. > >To do the "list of topics" thing is hard without an encouraging >audience outside the fishbowl. The encouragment is needed . . . >and yet as you said Holly, Delores has a powerful cybervoice (and >cybersilence too!), we listen to eloquence about the burning >email followed by the satire? of the dog bowl! I would not wish >Dolores less powerful or absent. In fact initially there was >some expectation (by Dolores) that i would ask her to leave the >list which i have no intention of doing. Walter, please accept my meager encouragement to continue in what I know is an extremely difficult position, the people on the list couldn't learn without your willingness to take the risk. >Now . . . psychodramatists! What are the roles involved in all >these dynamics. Who is who in the Apocalypse Now theme? What >are the dynamics of the fish / dog bowl? I'm going to avoid this question for now because I want to think about it some more. > >> So I decided to wait, watch, listen, and see what would emerge. Perhaps if >> there was a "theme" I could catch on. > >The theme I see right now is this: > >== Order & Chaos == Perhaps, the theme is Order and Chaos, especially since I know I always react strongly (and sometimes negatively) to chaos. >We speak of it in education in the PWP, and then we are >confronted with it here in the list as a whole. We begin to >value anecdotes and flow, and not being told what to do, and when >it happens here, right in the list, when there is some >"education" of a very free flowing nature, it is difficult . . . >paralysis sets in (no offence to anyone intended, I am speaking >of my own, unless others also claim it.) >Order and chaos also has the gender aspect; male female, and the >feeling / thought dynamic . . . Yes, you're right on target!!!!! These aspects are important in this theme of order and chaos. >Options: > >a. persevere? > >b. program "topics" into the Psybernet Mailing List so some >could unsub from PWP? > >c. Move the PWP out of this list into one of its own, with its >eight members. > >d. call it a day? > >I'd be especially keen to hear from PWP members on this. As I said earlier, please perserve. I think the effort will be worth it!!! >> Trying to sort out my own confusion ... > >Holly, you are not the only one, I suspect you are voicing a >confusion that others feel, that you feel because there *is* >confusion, and in my response I am also sorting out my confusion >. . . perhaps we can! Holly, you definitely were not the ONLY one experiencing confusion. I was as well, but you gave voice to it much better then I. My name can also be added to those trying to sort out the confusion, and I *feel* we're on the right track now with open discussion about it. Loving the water!! Janell > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:23:24 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: PWP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:54 AM 11/22/96 -0500, you wrote: >Walter, all in the PWP, and others > > I'll respond to the last part of your post first. No, and maybe this is me >because I don't like to quit, don't stop the PWP project, continue it and >let's see what we *all* can learn from it. I know I've learned some things >already, one simple one is that a project like this is difficult at best, >but I don't see it as impossible. I love hearing *everyone's* opinion (both >inside and outside of PWP), even if some of them are not my cup of tea (I'm >also sure my opinion's about *feelings* are not everyone's cup of tea). > >> >>> I was stopped short in my tracks, though, with the "topics are boring...." >> >>I am pleased you raise this . . . who was not struck in their >>tracks? I was! At the same time I was slowing down here for >>other reasons but that post was one of them. I am thinking of >>Delores / Laurel post which spoke of beauty in the list and the >>smell of burning email in the morning. >> >>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/wa.exe?A2=ind9610&L=psyber-l&D=0&H=0&T=1&O=T&F= &P=10 >I also was stopped in my tracks by some of the confusion and I resorted to >silence as well, but I'm learning in a positive way by it. >> >>To do the "list of topics" thing is hard without an encouraging >>audience outside the fishbowl. The encouragment is needed . . . >>and yet as you said Holly, Delores has a powerful cybervoice (and >>cybersilence too!), we listen to eloquence about the burning >>email followed by the satire? of the dog bowl! I would not wish >>Dolores less powerful or absent. In fact initially there was >>some expectation (by Dolores) that i would ask her to leave the >>list which i have no intention of doing. > > Walter, please accept my meager encouragement to continue in what I know is >an extremely difficult position, the people on the list couldn't learn >without your willingness to take the risk. > >>Now . . . psychodramatists! What are the roles involved in all >>these dynamics. Who is who in the Apocalypse Now theme? What >>are the dynamics of the fish / dog bowl? > > I'm going to avoid this question for now because I want to think about it >some more. >> >>> So I decided to wait, watch, listen, and see what would emerge. Perhaps if >>> there was a "theme" I could catch on. >> >>The theme I see right now is this: >> >>== Order & Chaos == > > Perhaps, the theme is Order and Chaos, especially since I know I always >react strongly (and sometimes negatively) to chaos. > >>We speak of it in education in the PWP, and then we are >>confronted with it here in the list as a whole. We begin to >>value anecdotes and flow, and not being told what to do, and when >>it happens here, right in the list, when there is some >>"education" of a very free flowing nature, it is difficult . . . >>paralysis sets in (no offence to anyone intended, I am speaking >>of my own, unless others also claim it.) > >>Order and chaos also has the gender aspect; male female, and the >>feeling / thought dynamic . . . > > Yes, you're right on target!!!!! These aspects are important in this theme >of order and chaos. > >>Options: >> >>a. persevere? >> >>b. program "topics" into the Psybernet Mailing List so some >>could unsub from PWP? >> >>c. Move the PWP out of this list into one of its own, with its >>eight members. >> >>d. call it a day? >> >>I'd be especially keen to hear from PWP members on this. > > As I said earlier, please perserve. I think the effort will be worth it!!! > >>> Trying to sort out my own confusion ... >> > >>Holly, you are not the only one, I suspect you are voicing a >>confusion that others feel, that you feel because there *is* >>confusion, and in my response I am also sorting out my confusion >>. . . perhaps we can! > > Holly, you definitely were not the ONLY one experiencing confusion. I was >as well, but you gave voice to it much better then I. > My name can also be added to those trying to sort out the confusion, and I >*feel* we're on the right track now with open discussion about it. > > Loving the water!! > > Janell > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > R O N N I (^;^) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:52:05 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: Re: Grief, from one to many Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl, Call it synchronicity, call it my attempt to respond personally, but I do want to say I read your email and was moved. I hope you don't mind if I resort to a long passage from a book I just finished reading "Confessions of a Taoist on Wall Street" by David Payne. "Don't cry son," he sonsoled in a quiet, unhappy voice. "It isn't worth it." I nodded, trying to stop. I couldn't help myself. "No," I agreed, "you're right. It isn't." "And yet, sometimes it is." I could hear the smile in his voice, and I smiled too, though I continued weeping. "Yes, I admitted, Sometimes it is." "I don't think we were put here to be happy," he said. I shook my head, agreeing. "I used to think so, that we were owed it like a basic right, that it was guaranteed. Not anymore." "I used to think so too." I said. "And yet, sometimes we are happy." I didn't answer this time, because I didn't know if I believed him. "You will be too again," he promised with the same smile behind the words. "I've lost everything," I told him, the only truth I knew. "I know," he replied. "I can see that. I'm sorry." Then he was quiet for a long time, respectful before the fact of it, before the completeness of it. "Does it mean so much?" he asked finally, when he spoke again. The question almost shocked me, but I thought about it. I nearly found it in my heart to say, no, perhaps it didn't. But I changed my mind and I said, "yes, it did." "Of course," he conceded. "Of course it did." This time his silence seemed a little troubled. "But losing is a part of it, isn't it?" He inquired as though trying it with himself. "Yes, I answered. "It has to be." "The deeper part I think sometimes," he continued. "Perhaps it's the whole game." The smile came back in his voice. "And that's a secret, isn't it, that winning is small and paltry when placed next to it, almost trivial, that happiness itself is trivial compared to suffering and loss, compared to pain. A mystery, " he pronounced with a very different kind of smile in his voice, colder and brighter and further away. "And God is merciful after all. Goodbye, young man. Good luck.".... ...and I went out into the world, this world, the world as it is...... (Pages 844-845, "Con. of a Ton WS" David Payne) I find the passage uplifting....and send it as such..... _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 02:11:55 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Psybernet Dynamics..boring boring boring Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I havent looked at the Psw..Psp..shame on me, But i know it will hold no interest for me, is it mandatory to be look at something , just because its there..or does that mean I am lacking curiosity, or unprepared to give it a chance.. whatever there are other things I am prepared to acknowledge, I am more interested in..like what my ex is doing, or why it always rains when I hang out my washing, or that damn phrase, I think therefore I am. Which just above sums up all there is you need to know, but which I still cant fathom. And because I am.. should I just accept it..without needing to know what the I am is..or is that lack of curiosity too..The answer when you try to look deeper is a dog chasing its own tail. or the infinite peeling of the layers of an onion..and sometimes not to ask why but to accept should be enough or so they tell us in matters of god, or heaven forbid questioning your doctor. Accept therefore I am is more correct.. question and I might be something I dont want to think about. And I do not want a pat on the back, and well writ, well spoken. I do not want tokens of peace, doves, and the chortle of cherubs or flowers without the stink of manure about them.. but stabs in the back and needles in my arteries and..glass ground beneath my eyelids. I dont want words of academics, I dont understand them..and they bore me..and why not admit that what I dont understand bores me..because the truth is I dont really want to understand it. (does that make me ignorant or gloriously unfettered by education) I want whats real not what is dressed up like a shop bought pie, no meat all gravy..and a dry crust covering whats really inside to chew through before you find out the chewing reveals nothing you didnt already know..just the recipe is different..less individual.. more manufactured. That home made pies are best, and steak is better with a little gristle..and kidney tastes better when its a little pissy. God gave us words, they are not to be abused, they are to toss in the air and watch with glee as they tumble down and hit the page, and who knows how they will land if you dont think about them..if you dont watch for them..just let them fall..and watch them scatter and not tie them in cumbersome bundles so they thud restrained in one taught block a pun on taut.. I amused myself for a moment there noticing it. .they should fall and slip and slide..and arrange themselves not be arranged..And forget who you are, and all you know and just let the words come..and then know yourself by your words..for they are your thoughts and deeds..and have you forgotten how to run with them and not against them.. and is posture the same as pose.. or is that posturing the same as prose.. I am having fun..and the words are dancing jigs. I do not learn from what i already know..but learn by what I must look at again And think again, and think maybe, this is wrong, I am wrong and now I see why.. this is life, and life is learning, And thank god - whoever that might be, not some old st nicholas look alike thats for sure, not the god in the bible..but the one who lurks in the dawn.. for life and learning that that the most important lessons Arent always found in school. So I do not want soft idylic roses, I want the thorns.. the smell of roses is sophoriphic.. damn if I could spell I would be dangerous.. the prick of a thorn is what awakens me.. Or the smell of burning petals in the morning.. I need to bleed, Or nick myself shaving my legs Fritz.. I am not a sleeping beauty, was that apples, thorns or spinning wheels.. but I am the wicked witch. I am do not want to look in mirrors, I dont want second hand reflections.. Mirror mirror on the Internet.. Smoke on water is all you'll get.. I want to crack mirrors..split them.. And find myselves in all the shards, make ripples in the water. Have you ever noticed how you look different in different mirrors.. In the car mirror ..damn Im beautiful.. In the toilet mirror I look like something the cat excreted.. just one piece of glass...but oh so many surfaces.. And Im content to be the wicked witch, because wicked witches have more fun. sheryl..expect an email from me this weekend..sorry I couldnt write this last week. What you sent me..was something special..it was completely honest..and I have the greatest admiration for you. Wilbur if I dont write this weekend you have permission to hack my hands off.. At 20:53 21/11/96 -0500, you wrote: >Walter: > > Thanks again for the kind professor comments, I really appreciate them >because many on the professors I've known haven't been so kind. > > I wouldn't call myself a cautious researcher but I would say a tentative >swimmer in psyberland, tentative because I don't yet know how safe it is. > >> >>Yes, the warm-up ebbs and flows here, more flow now as we stick >>with this and have some regular dialogue, which I have been >>unable to maintain recently. I was thinking of the social roles >>such as facilitator, and even more of (jargon) psychodramatic >>roles. For example what is the role of someone who tests the >>water . . . a tentative swimmer? What if the water is not water >>but a group of psybernauts? a cautious researcher? What is my >>role in response? Kind professor? > > I too love the way we can draw on our own words here and I also hope we >will use this technology more. > >>I love the way we can draw on our own words here like this, and I >>hope we will use this technology more. >> > > Starting to like the water. > > > Janell > > >> > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 23:22:15 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Mary F Subject: Re: PWP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sieur de Cyberie wrote: > Some rail against the silence > like loons railing against the still and vacant silences As I listened to the loons calling in the night, I recognized the message of their voices as defining the silence, the darkness, speaking for the shadow. Though they spoke not in words, nor cared that anyone heard or understood, they sang the soul's song in perfect accompaniment with the night. > Some felt that a retreat to learned statements as the best path > as one never knows anymore who will read your words or how they will be > used ... thus the strutting and posturing behind academic facades One could starve eating clouds Mary *************************************************************** ...though intellect can take us to the end of the diving board, it's faith that gives us the courage to leap... Ram Dass *************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 04:29:15 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Psybernet Dynamics..boring boring boring In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19961203030902.190fde4e@mail.easynet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Laurel, > I havent looked at the Psw..Psp..shame on me, > But i know it will hold no interest for me, is it mandatory to be look > at something , just because its there.. No. > And I do not want a pat on the back . . . =20 Your boring boring boring does seem to invite a fight . . . which i doubt you want in a time . . . that sounds like crisis, turmoil and pain. > want tokens of peace, doves, and > the chortle of cherubs or flowers without the stink of manure about = them.. > but stabs > in the back and needles in my arteries and..glass ground beneath my = eyelids. > I dont want words of academics,=20 My words are what they are and why not . . . and I hope I and others here can be real enough as you grapple with . . . real stabs and real needles? > God gave us words, they are not to be abused, they are to toss in the = air > and watch with glee as they tumble down > and hit the page, and who knows how they will land if you dont think = about > them..if you dont watch for them..just let > them fall..and watch them scatter and not tie them in cumbersome = bundles so > they thud restrained in one taught block Like it or not, as you speak you are *deeply* speaking to the theme here in the dreaded Psybernet Web Project . . . the restraint of being taught! > a pun on taut.. I amused myself for a moment there noticing it. Great pun, if that is patting the back, what the hell. > I am having fun..and the words are dancing jigs. I love words and the dance and even the somewhat difficult dance I do with them. I struggle with them. Still it is *my* dance, and different from most . . .=20 However I am not having fun, I am thrown in my tracks and immediately standing up and not loosing my voice . . . > not the god in the bible..but the one who lurks in the dawn.. What is that one like? > for life and learning that that the most important lessons > Arent always found in school. You express in all ways one pole of the conflict the dilemma, is someone going to match you from the right? It won't be me I am far too liberal! > So I do not want soft idylic roses, I want the thorns.. > the smell of roses is sophoriphic.. damn if I could spell I would be = dangerous.. > the prick of a thorn is what awakens me.. > Or the smell of burning petals in the morning.. > I need to bleed, > Or nick myself shaving my legs Fritz.. Are you dangerous? In danger? All that blood . . . bleeding on the net is one thing . . . virtual blood is one thing . . . bleed on the net . . . and I think you can be held here . . . no sexual innuendo intended. > I am the wicked witch. =46its.=20 > And Im content to be the wicked witch, because wicked witches have more= fun. Trouble is there is always someone who wants to burn them or ignore them. I want to do both . . . more than anything though I want to do what I am doing . . . what ever that is exactly, being here, as I am, no more no less . . .=20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:13:30 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sieur de Cyberie Organization: Re-enchanting your virtual soul Subject: Poetic interlude Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love it ... the noise ... the sounds of people digging deep into their own souls and stirring up the shadows. Last night I went for a walk of about 3 km (2 miles) around our small village here in the snowy fasts of this northern climate. While walking, I had several conversations with Jung, my shadow, and with nature. An outcome of this experience follows below: Winter Streets at Night ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ the frigid air burns near the eyes a face mostly covered with hood and scarf frames the eyes in background shadow the nose is twigged by the cold a sniff, then silence eyes look out at the nightscape in winter snow flows in wild non-patterns a white shroud for the till shapes beneath a whiteness hued with amber, blue and shades of black eyes drawn to lights, passing cars, then houses lights of motion lights of presence then street lights, a line of separated poles showing the way home in the silence and the darkness street lights, solitary, silent until you listen carefully a hum, energy that speaks of life standing closer to the light a mythical heat begins to warm the soul within a community of street lamps in straight lines each in isolation from the other except for the hidden umbilical cord lights which strain to touch the projections cast by other lights trying to deny their isolation let a lamp burn out and the community becomes fragmented let the umbilical cord be severed and the community dies in isolation, in relation connected by soul, creative energy in a shadowed universe in isolation, alone abandoned a glimpse of hell in darkness Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 12:21:36 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sheryl Garner Subject: Tears to Laughter, mostly PWP A warm smile to everyone :) My anticipation of silence seemed to be unfounded... apparently I would make a poor psychic... yet I am almost afraid to post anything to Psyber L or PWP for fear I'm a jinx, and silence will again take over, and I'll become one of Robert's loons (lunes?) again. I've been rereading this weeks posts... the more I've read, the fonder I've become of all of you :) Janelle, whose soft, shy voice is gaining momentum and bringing life (however temporary) to Psyber L again... Fritz, a fellow loon, I think, (oh Fritz, you needed to download a log to see if anyone had heard you? I have!)... Holly, who has been so perceptive, not acknowledged or appeared to be appreciated enough (but I have, Holly, very much)... Robert, a loon too, as driven as I am in search of depth and honest communication in Psyberspace (yet Robert, it was rereading your ICHAT post that I began to feel the laughter bubbling up in me, your image of Walter is hilarious!)... Steve, bathed in love and light... Laurel/Dolores, not PWP, but who reminds us that all is not love and light, and the difficulty of seeing light when we are deep in the shadow... HooN, who occasionally drops in then vanishes like a ghost... Pixie who is almost completely unknown to me, except as a researcher... and Walter, oh Walter! The patient kindly professor whose unruly students refuse to follow directions... every once in awhile dropping his role to let us know he is human, too... and then reverting to blizzarding us with websites (please Walter! I get lost in all those alleys on the web!)... <> Walter, what the heck does this mean????? Was I supposed to go to this site in the middle of reading this post? << I must say that I don't think I will ever do a fishbowl thing again! It is just so complex. Yet there are facilities in the software to use "Topics" and to allow people to subscribe or not to various prefixes such as PWP. While we don't have it programmed in at this point we are *learning* about lists within lists. >> Oh Walter, I wish I could give you a big hug here... other than the fishbowl part, I have no idea what you're talking about... even who *we* is. <> Write to the list how, Walter? I thought I was writing to the list. Shaping the fixed texts... ok, I'll visit PWP on the home site... maybe I'll understand better what I'm supposed to do. I was the editorial editor of my high school newspaper... does that qualify me for anything? << a. persevere? b. program "topics" into the Psybernet Mailing List so some could unsub from PWP? c. Move the PWP out of this list into one of its own, with its eight members. d. call it a day? >> I vote for a, Walter... persevere. Just tell me what to do. And, uh, I STILL think that if PWP people put PWP in the subject title, the other list members could have the option of reading them or not. Computer programs don't have to do everything for us. :) Whether this is a loon letter or not, of one thing I'm certain... if I hadn't allowed myself to stay in the shadow and grief (and I'm certain I'll be flipping back and forth into that reality for the next few months) I would have never been able to feel this wonderful rush and release in the laughter. Who needs drugs? Fondly :) Sheryl the pumpkin head _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 02:46:17 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: tears and laughter Hi Sheryl, great stuff you wrote! That's it I shouted when I read it. Fritz _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:40:14 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Tears to Laughter, mostly PWP In-Reply-To: <961123122136_2048554614@emout01.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sheryl, > A warm smile to everyone :) :) I have been thinking about two points in your post in particular quite a bit today. Apart from this bit: > that I began to feel the laughter bubbling up in me, your image of = Walter is > hilarious!)...=20 Which I will just overlook! ~~~ One was your comment about posting the gibberish URLs: > and then > reverting to blizzarding us with websites (please Walter! I get lost = in all > those alleys on the web!)... I was under the impression that others would be like me, and just delight in being able to click onto the old post we were talking about. I pop in the occasional link to a post that was made earlier this year . . . seems to make sense to me. > I am thinking of > Delores / Laurel post which spoke of beauty in the list and the > smell of burning email in the morning. http://home.ease.lsoft.com/wa.exe?A2=3Dind9610&L=3Dpsyber-l&D=3D0&H=3D0&T= =3D1&O=3DT&F=3D&P=3D1000 > Walter, what the heck does this mean????? Was I supposed to go to this = site > in the middle of reading this post? Well it is the link to the post under discussion, no obligation, but it is only a click away, depending on ones setup I guess.=20 The other use that I see for this list is to share Psybernet information. Whatever way we get our news, information, entertainment, it would seem that there is nothing like people to do the selecting and passing on of items of interest on the theme of this list. I would like to see us get much more pro active in this way . . . perhaps it requires a list all of its own . . . one for sharing links on the Psybernet theme. There are so many "best web, cool sites, new on the web" places, but what is there of interest in the Psybernet arena? Why not share that on the list? I read links like this in lists all the time and only go to them occasionally, and sometimes that is really great! Perhaps my taste is not everyone's however here we get to know each other well enough to know whose recommendations to skip! ~~~ Onto the second point: Psybernet Web Project=20 > Oh Walter, I wish I could give you a big hug here... other than the = fishbowl > part, I have no idea what you're talking about... even who *we* is. Oh dear . . . what a business! Never mind. > Shaping > the fixed texts... ok, I'll visit PWP on the home site... maybe I'll > understand better what I'm supposed to do. I was the editorial editor = of my > high school newspaper... does that qualify me for anything? Sure does. =20 This PWP thing is really ambitious. Laurel speaks of letting words fall where they may, and that words can be abused. I don't think that to transpose our free wheeling discussion here into a tighter (tauter!) format, is to abuse words. God that would make writing a haiku tantamount to rape. =20 To work with a discussion in a list and to use the process to *collaboratively* create a hypertext of interest . . . can we do it? > I vote for a, Walter... persevere. Just tell me what to do. And, uh, = I > STILL think that if PWP people put PWP in the subject title, the other = list > members could have the option of reading them or not. Computer = programs > don't have to do everything for us. :) persevere Great, that, along with Janell's similar comment, is enough encouragment to spur me on. =20 I think that the PWP discussion and the list discussion *combined* have the drama and the meaning that is not in the PWP alone! While we do both at once we have complex dynamics indeed. So the next step in the PWP is creating some decent content from what we have written into the structure which is now working reasonably well there on the web. =20 One way to do some of the work on the PWP would be for the PWP participant to post me some ideas in private mail, the results would then find their way into the list and the web. Sheryl, you asked for some guidelines . . . and I have complied, to some extent Will > unruly students refuse to follow directions...=20 ?? this whole question of self or teacher directed education is at the heart of our Order and Chaos theme. I think of the yin yang symbol, which often has a small whit spot in the centre of the dark side, and a black spot in the white. Order wont work without a spot of anarchy. In chaos there is the most delicate pattern for those who have eyes to see it. Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:24:09 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Tears to Laughter, mostly PWP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sheryl: Please keep saying what you *feel* and think, the list continues to be a warm place thanks to you!! I also don't feel you'll be a jinx and that silence will take over again. I really love the way you use your smiley face and warm manner of putting things. I hope that the momentum the list is gaining lately will continue, but I also realize that no individual can achieve that alone, it takes *all* of us not being afraid to say what's on our individual minds. I've seen this is a warm list and I don't believe anyone would intentionally hurt someone. Your description below of some on the list brings a warm smile to my heart and I enjoy how you word things. :) Thanks!! >I've been rereading this weeks posts... the more I've read, the fonder I've >become of all of you :) Janelle, whose soft, shy voice is gaining momentum >and bringing life (however temporary) to Psyber L again... Fritz, a fellow >loon, I think, (oh Fritz, you needed to download a log to see if anyone had >heard you? I have!)... Holly, who has been so perceptive, not acknowledged >or appeared to be appreciated enough (but I have, Holly, very much)... >Robert, a loon too, as driven as I am in search of depth and honest >communication in Psyberspace (yet Robert, it was rereading your ICHAT post >that I began to feel the laughter bubbling up in me, your image of Walter is >hilarious!)... Steve, bathed in love and light... Laurel/Dolores, not PWP, >but who reminds us that all is not love and light, and the difficulty of >seeing light when we are deep in the shadow... HooN, who occasionally drops >in then vanishes like a ghost... Pixie who is almost completely unknown to >me, except as a researcher... and Walter, oh Walter! The patient kindly >professor whose unruly students refuse to follow directions... every once in >awhile dropping his role to let us know he is human, too... and then >reverting to blizzarding us with websites (please Walter! I get lost in all >those alleys on the web!)... > Basking in the water!! Janell _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:25:21 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: PWP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, PWP members and others I'm very intrigued by your thoughts below on Order and Chaos. I've always had a great deal of difficulty dealing with chaos, and even though I have some ideas why, it still doesn't make it any easier. Your last sentence about chaos having the most delicate pattern for those who have eyes to see it really has me wondering exactly what you mean by it. Any words on your meaning will be helpful. > this whole question of self or teacher directed education is at >the heart of our Order and Chaos theme. I think of the yin yang >symbol, which often has a small whit spot in the centre of the >dark side, and a black spot in the white. Order wont work >without a spot of anarchy. In chaos there is the most delicate >pattern for those who have eyes to see it. Thanks In the water!! Janell _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:06:41 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: hollyg Subject: PWP: Order/Chaos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> this whole question of self or teacher directed education is at >>the heart of our Order and Chaos theme. I think of the yin yang >>symbol, which often has a small whit spot in the centre of the >>dark side, and a black spot in the white. Order wont work >>without a spot of anarchy. In chaos there is the most delicate >>pattern for those who have eyes to see it. > I agree with you Janel --- I like thinking about order/chaos this way as well, ..... although I would consider the issue of self or teacher-directed education slightly differently. In my mind, teachers are in the business of guiding each pupil to consider material, comprehend it, and incorporate it into his or her mental model of the universe. If that last step is not taken, the pupil may successful know the material for a test, but be unable to call on the information personally, in life situation --- which is really what learning is all about. Therefore, "ordering" chaos -- searching for patterns and relationships -- is a central act in making sense of our lives. But the act flips around on itself, like you suggest Walter, because as we grow and learn to "order" and "connect" we can be --at times --- assured by how our process is similar to the culture at large, or --- at times ---- discouraged by how differently we feel and understand the world from others. The beauty of order wavers. It begins to seem relative. And there we stand, neither here nor there --- drawn to our process of "ordering" so we can communicate and explore, sychronize .... and often running into the reality of chaos, what we cannot control. Perhaps the end of this is that I sense the ordering as "internal" and the chaos as "external" (on a good day!) and it is the process by which millions negotiate this that larger patterns emerge. The patterns are not just in the external world, but also emerge from the way large numbers of humans "order" the chaos. The patterns emerge from process too. Better drink some more tea before I even try to read this.... Holly _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:19:09 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: PWP: Order/Chaos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Holly: I had to have a second cup of tea before I began to see what you were saying and saying so well. I agree that teachers are in the business of doing what you say below, at least the good ones are, the bad ones are looking for rote memorization which I don't think does much good for the student; especially if they can't make patterns and relationships as you say in your next paragraph. I've always been what I call a late bloomer since things didn't click in my learning process at an early age. I think some of that had to do with my elementary school teachers demanding the rote memorization and not looking for the incorporation into my mental model. They felt like they had to say they had the answer and I needed to learn it without any foresight to the future. It wasn't until I escaped from their yoke of suppression that I finally came into my own and started to think for myself. > In my mind, teachers are in the business of guiding each pupil to consider >material, comprehend it, and incorporate it into his or her mental model of >the universe. If that last step is not taken, the pupil may successful know >the material for a test, but be unable to call on the information >personally, in life situation --- which is really what learning is all about. > >Therefore, "ordering" chaos -- searching for patterns and relationships -- >is a central act in making sense of our lives. But the act flips around on >itself, like you suggest Walter, because as we grow and learn to "order" and >"connect" we can be --at times --- assured by how our process is similar to >the culture at large, or --- at times ---- discouraged by how differently >we feel and understand the world from others. The beauty of order wavers. >It begins to seem relative. > >And there we stand, neither here nor there --- drawn to our process of >"ordering" so we can communicate and explore, sychronize .... and often >running into the reality of chaos, what we cannot control. > >Perhaps the end of this is that I sense the ordering as "internal" and the >chaos as "external" (on a good day!) and it is the process by which millions >negotiate this that larger patterns emerge. The patterns are not just in >the external world, but also emerge from the way large numbers of humans >"order" the chaos. The patterns emerge from process too. > Still enjoying the water. Janell > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:39:07 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: PWP: Order and Chaos, and my inspiration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, I am hesitant to send up this somewhat abstruse material however I love this stuff! I feel inspired by it, and need to have a place to discuss it as I feel alone with such a warm-up . . . I go to speak to friends and I know I can't get it all out. I find it hard to think so much about these things and not put it out fully. =20 Can I recommend Meme, a regular article by David S. Bennahum, I get it by email and current one is 2.14 on the meme page: http://www.reach.com/matrix/meme.html It is an interview with Mark Pesce, it begins: ----quote---- Mark Pesce is known for his work creating VRML, or Virtual Reality Markup Language. In this issue of MEME, I spoke with Mark about his life, and what motivated him to co-create VRML. With the release of VRML 2.0, in August of 1996, VRML (pronounced "vurmel") is fast becoming the defacto standard for authoring dynamic, inteconnected 3-D worlds over the Internet. In this interview, Pesce discusses the origins of VRML and his hope that a "tactile," "sensual" version of cyberspace will bring a spiritual dimension to computing. ----end quote---- I am recommending it because Mark has insight into the psychological and spiritual nature of this medium that is really worth understanding. =20 Including ideas about order and chaos as I synchronistically discovered. There is a reference in the interview , http://www.hyperreal.com/~mpesce/pdu.html Where Mark writes in a difficult philosophical style, but which is worth reading and grappling with in my opinion. It is not about technology, but about the spiritual evolution of our species. And yes, some of his work is full of *feeling*. He describes how moving it is to see the earth live on the screen. There is also a description there of WORLDSONG . . . inspiring, and he has a very deep understanding of what might be good and evil in the noospehere, a word that has its origins in the work of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin The Phenomenon of Man, a book that has been an inspiration to me since I read it 30 years ago. A phrase that I really liked in the article: > both individual solitude and global unity That describes the nature of my quest here, to have connection even in those activities that require solitude. This is a solitary meditation, and jet I am here with some company. This may look like intellectual stuff . . . believe me, it would hurt me to have it dismissed as such. =20 Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:17:06 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Plans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I am about to depart for a 12 day journey up to Auckland and back to pick up my son and his girlfriend, who will be in New Zealand for a month before they return to London. I had hoped that this might allow me time with Psybernet however my laptop just packed it in! I am writing this at home on another PC and unless they do a quick fix before I depart tomorrow, I will be without my prosthesis! Grief. If I do have my machine, I may also find that driving and camping will remove me from cyberspace, however I would at least keep up with the flow, as I have especially subbed to an ISP that works toll free throughout New Zealand. Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:43:40 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Agents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, On Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:54:00 GMT Walter Logeman wrote: Here i am replying to my own post. Since I wrote this I have been reading some of the essays by Mark Pesce (http://www.hyperreal.com/~mpesce) I realise that he mentions a phenomena called Moibius conversion . . . I think it is the thing I wrote about here: =20 > Jaron's fear that we adjust to suit our agent has an element of > truth here too. This is not evil. Our agent, if of the > collaborative filtering variety is none other than a group of > people sharing information, we'd expect that to change *who we > are*. We are mirrored in the mould of the web, we are shaped by > our reflection. What is this association with mirrors and evil though? =20 Walter Writing in Cook strait between the two islands of nz. My laptop working, intermittently! _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 22:51:53 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Eagle Organization: Young Living Essential Oils Subject: hellooooooooooooooooooooo Comments: To: Celestine-L Comments: cc: Kundalini-L Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helllllllooooooooo Where is everyone tonight? I have received no mail except my own posts tonight. OH CRY!!!!!! Every one ascended and left me behind!! If there is anyone out there please talk to me and tell me I am not here alone. The only mail I have received today are from me! Laughing!! You know, as I type this, I realise it is really easy for me to think I am actually here alone and begin to really believe all this stuff about life and the universe being an illusion of our own creation. And that everything and everyone in our illusion is there because we created them. And that if we did not continue to hold the thoughts of our creations, they would just vanish, like so much stardust. I live alone, so there are no people wondering thru my evenings. There is absolutely no list traffic tonight. Not from any of the three lists that I am on! And no private posts either.. And as I write this, I have begun to listen to outside noises. Only to find that even the local street traffic is silent. There have been no trains on a track that normally has one every hour. No dogs barking. Silence!! Just the noise of my heater and the clicking of the keys. I am surrounded and overwhelmed by the silence. And the more intently I listen, the more I find silence. Even the wind has stopped blowing, and the wind chimes outside my window aren't singing just now. Silence seems to have moved into my space. With all the silence with which I am surrounded, I find myself waiting.. waiting... listening... knowing that something is about to happen and wanting to not miss it. Whatever it is. I am waiting. Perhaps the angels are preparing to sing and start the final process of Ascension. :) And I am waiting... I do find that I enjoy the silence. And I usually dont question the silence. Only when it suddenly surrounds me like a blanket. The one night when I dont have a dozen different things to do and could respond to posts as they come in, and... there are none! Blessings of Love and Light to all. Sybil Soaring Eagle -- "Silence is the element in which great things fashion themselves." --Carlyle, Sartor Resartus _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 01:32:19 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: holly williams-mcleod Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I,m here Mr. Eagle This is the first mailing I have received since signing on to this mailing list. I am not alone, working the midnight shift. Can you tell me what usually gets discussed in this mailing group?? Are you stil awake???? HNWMc _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 00:17:13 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Mike Rael Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo In-Reply-To: <329FD989.72DB@ainet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII YOU ARE NOT ALONE! heh... Actually, O thou Eagle, I subscribed to this list for an age and a half and somehow never felt like responding... YOur loneliness..pardon "aloneness"...touched me. I, though, have been lonely far more often than alone.. Right now I live with my girlfriend. We are both recovering from colds and so do not sleep next to each other for the duration. I think of her as a silent presence and I hurt. Not because I miss her this moment, but because I miss someone I could really talk with...sigh... best always, Mike Mike Rael, MS, instructional technology lakid@netcom.com listowner, self-esteem-self-help To subscribe, email:listserv@netcom.com No subject header Message: subscribe self-esteem-self-help "If you have a serious, ongoing problem, you will be referred to a therapist of your choice. The listowner, while experienced in these areas, is not a licensed therapist." On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Eagle wrote: > Helllllllooooooooo > > Where is everyone tonight? > > I have received no mail except my own posts tonight. > > OH CRY!!!!!! Every one ascended and left me behind!! > > If there is anyone out there please talk to me and tell > me I am not here alone. > > The only mail I have received today are from me! > > Laughing!! > > You know, as I type this, I realise it is really easy for me to think I > am actually here alone and begin to really believe all this stuff about > life and the universe being an illusion of our own creation. And that > everything and everyone in our illusion is there because we created them. > And that if we did not continue to hold the thoughts of our creations, > they would just vanish, like so much stardust. > > I live alone, so there are no people wondering thru my evenings. > There is absolutely no list traffic tonight. Not from any of the three > lists that I am on! And no private posts either.. And as I write this, > I have begun to listen to outside noises. Only to find that even the > local street traffic is silent. There have been no trains on a track > that normally has one every hour. No dogs barking. Silence!! Just the > noise of my heater and the clicking of the keys. > > I am surrounded and overwhelmed by the silence. And the more intently I > listen, the more I find silence. Even the wind has stopped blowing, and > the wind chimes outside my window aren't singing just now. Silence seems > to have moved into my space. > > With all the silence with which I am surrounded, I find myself waiting.. > waiting... listening... knowing that something is about to happen and > wanting to not miss it. Whatever it is. I am waiting. > > Perhaps the angels are preparing to sing and start the final process of > Ascension. :) And I am waiting... > > I do find that I enjoy the silence. And I usually dont question the > silence. Only when it suddenly surrounds me like a blanket. > The one night when I dont have a dozen different things to do and could > respond to posts as they come in, and... there are none! > > Blessings of Love and Light to all. > Sybil Soaring Eagle > > > -- > "Silence is the element > in which great things fashion themselves." > --Carlyle, Sartor Resartus > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 00:21:55 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Mike Rael Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo In-Reply-To: <32A150A3.7DAC@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, Holly... Actually your question is one of the reasons I never participated here much. I own my own mailing list where the agenda is simple: we are all dedicated to raising our levels of reality-based self-esteem. I subscribe to Spoon and occasionally say my say there. They are *nice* folk, completely undemanding... This list seems to be for people who want to talk at a somewhat deeper level than Spoon...in the sense of a deeper intellectual or emotional energy being used for self-expression...but otherwise, as far as I have observed, there is no other agenda. And...I could be wrong. So, back to the present, huh... I'm feeling a bit lonely now...like I want to run away to a far place and never see LosAngeles again... How about you? best, Mike Mike Rael, MS, instructional technology lakid@netcom.com listowner, self-esteem-self-help To subscribe, email:listserv@netcom.com No subject header Message: subscribe self-esteem-self-help "If you have a serious, ongoing problem, you will be referred to a therapist of your choice. The listowner, while experienced in these areas, is not a licensed therapist." On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, holly williams-mcleod wrote: > I,m here Mr. Eagle > This is the first mailing I have received since signing on to this > mailing list. I am not alone, working the midnight shift. > > Can you tell me what usually gets discussed in this mailing group?? > Are you stil awake???? > HNWMc > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 01:32:43 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Eagle Organization: Young Living Essential Oils Subject: Re: helloo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Rael wrote: > > YOU ARE NOT ALONE! This I am glad to know!!! > > heh... > > Actually, O thou Eagle, I subscribed to this list for an age and a half > and somehow never felt like responding... > > YOur loneliness..pardon "aloneness"...touched me. I, though, have been > lonely far more often than alone.. I am most often alone. Most of my work is done in solitaire. I am rarely, if ever, lonely! *G* And when i find myself in that state, I go visit a friend who has children. I get over "lonely' very quickly, thank you. Basically, I enjoy my solitude. It was just the sudden and completely unexpected total and complete SILENCE that got my attention!! Suddenly, It was just very noticable! I mean, three lists and not one single post from any of them, from anywhere in the world in 10+ hours? > > Right now I live with my girlfriend. We are both recovering from colds > and so do not sleep next to each other for the duration. I think of her > as a silent presence and I hurt. Not because I miss her this moment, but > because I miss someone I could really talk with...sigh... Are you able to *really* talk with her when you do sleep together? Do you live with the belief that colds are truly contagious? If so, then they are. Because you believe it to be so. Colds happen because we live such a fast paced life. We have too many things going on at one time. And we have ourselves going in too many directions at one time. Do you also live with the beleif that you have to 'endure' the cold and allow it to fully run its course? Which is not bad, if you are meditating and allowing your body to cleanse and clear debris that it is attempting to clear. I have been doing speicifc things to increase the functioning of my immune system. I cannot remember the last time I had a cold. And I am glad you responded. Thank you for hearing my cry into the silence. If you want to talk, write. I will respond. Hopefully reasonably soon. I am a Reiki Master, a Clinical Hypnotherapist, an excellent coach and very good at working on the net to assist people to move past their emotional blocks and into wholeness. Blessings of Love and Light and abundant health to you and your girlfriend. Sybil Soaring Eagle > > best always, > Mike > > Mike Rael, MS, instructional technology > lakid@netcom.com > listowner, self-esteem-self-help > > To subscribe, email:listserv@netcom.com No subject header > Message: subscribe self-esteem-self-help > > "If you have a serious, ongoing problem, you will be referred to a > therapist of your choice. The listowner, while experienced in these > areas, is not a licensed therapist." > > On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Eagle wrote: > > > Helllllllooooooooo > > > > Where is everyone tonight? > > > > I have received no mail except my own posts tonight. > > > > OH CRY!!!!!! Every one ascended and left me behind!! > > > > If there is anyone out there please talk to me and tell > > me I am not here alone. > > > > The only mail I have received today are from me! > > > > Laughing!! > > > > You know, as I type this, I realise it is really easy for me to think I > > am actually here alone and begin to really believe all this stuff about > > life and the universe being an illusion of our own creation. And that > > everything and everyone in our illusion is there because we created them. > > And that if we did not continue to hold the thoughts of our creations, > > they would just vanish, like so much stardust. > > > > I live alone, so there are no people wondering thru my evenings. > > There is absolutely no list traffic tonight. Not from any of the three > > lists that I am on! And no private posts either.. And as I write this, > > I have begun to listen to outside noises. Only to find that even the > > local street traffic is silent. There have been no trains on a track > > that normally has one every hour. No dogs barking. Silence!! Just the > > noise of my heater and the clicking of the keys. > > > > I am surrounded and overwhelmed by the silence. And the more intently I > > listen, the more I find silence. Even the wind has stopped blowing, and > > the wind chimes outside my window aren't singing just now. Silence seems > > to have moved into my space. > > > > With all the silence with which I am surrounded, I find myself waiting.. > > waiting... listening... knowing that something is about to happen and > > wanting to not miss it. Whatever it is. I am waiting. > > > > Perhaps the angels are preparing to sing and start the final process of > > Ascension. :) And I am waiting... > > > > I do find that I enjoy the silence. And I usually dont question the > > silence. Only when it suddenly surrounds me like a blanket. > > The one night when I dont have a dozen different things to do and could > > respond to posts as they come in, and... there are none! > > > > Blessings of Love and Light to all. > > Sybil Soaring Eagle > > > > > > -- > > "Silence is the element > > in which great things fashion themselves." > > --Carlyle, Sartor Resartus > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L -- "A friend loves you for your intelligence, a mistress for your charm, but your family's love is unreasoning; you were born into it and are of its flesh and blood. Nevertheless it can irritate you more than any group of people in the world." -- Andre` Marois _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 01:44:10 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Eagle Organization: Young Living Essential Oils Subject: Purpose of Silence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So Mike Take a break. Run away to the mountains. Get away from where you are for awhile. Rejuvinate yourself. Take care of yourself. Personally, I find the only time I am truly lonely? Is when I loose my connection to myself and to my God. Then I feel lonely. And I know it is time to sit and reconnect. Sit in the silence and reconnect. I too have noticed the depth of the intelluctual processing here. Which is also why I rarely post here. I am more interested in spirituality than in thinking for the sake of thinking. Not that all of the posts here are that, just my perception of of them. Blessings Sybil Soaring Eagle "Life is the song we came here to sing." Sybil Soaring Eagle _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 06:35:14 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: HNWMc Organization: 4CATZ Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Eagle Living in Los Angeles may explain the way you feel. Come to Canada for a nice cold holiday. You'll go home with a new perspective on life. (crime rate is low as well) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:32:15 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo In-Reply-To: <32A150A3.7DAC@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable holly, Ah! Welcome . . . we have another holly here . . .different initials! =20 > Can you tell me what usually gets discussed in this mailing group?? Do you have access to the web? The archives at http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html are worth a look, you will also see a description of the list there, i = posted it on: Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:08:56 GMT walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:42:00 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Psybernet Focus. [ was Re: helloooo. . . .] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, Great to see you here. A plus to have another list owner aboard too. > This list seems to be for people who want to talk at a somewhat > deeper level than Spoon...in the sense of a deeper intellectual or > emotional energy being used for self-expression...but otherwise, as far > as I have observed, there is no other agenda. And...I could be wrong. I think so. The focus is the to explore experientially, the impact of = the on-line media on our psyche. This does not preclude theories to make sense of our experience, however = it is good to have the thinking linked to our experince . . . that way it is a = living thing . . . I have been driving for 3 days, listening to the radio and tapes. = Enjoyed a tape by Terence McKenna on McLuhan. His talk was right there on the = Psybernet theme. I have a McLuhan file on the Psybernet web site, to help define = our focus. He was influential in noting how media, unconsciously shaped our = psyche. It seems a fairly simple focus to me, and I guess it becomes confusing, = because of the *experiential* aspect. Everything goes, because everything is an experience. But we tend to bring it back to the main task. =20 Think of the work we have done on silence. A small treatise . . . direct= and elegant. We could be more focussed on our task. I would not say we should be, it = is a huge one, and I think we are moving along fine. =20 Walter=20 _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 07:56:38 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Mary F Subject: Re: Purpose of Silence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eagle wrote: > > So Mike > Take a break. > Run away to the mountains. > Get away from where you are for awhile. > Rejuvinate yourself. Take care of yourself. > Personally, I find the only time I am truly lonely? > Is when I loose my connection to myself and to my God. > Then I feel lonely. And I know it is time to sit and reconnect. > > Sit in the silence and reconnect. > > I too have noticed the depth of the intelluctual processing here. Which > is also why I rarely post here. I am more interested in spirituality > than in thinking for the sake of thinking. Not that all of the posts > here are that, just my perception of of them. > > Blessings > Sybil Soaring Eagle > "Life is the song > we came here to sing." > Sybil Soaring Eagle Thanks for the recent messages Just what I needed to see printed, running across my screen reminding me to look for more that the usual black scribbles dancing meaninglessly on white fields The connection of which you speak is the basic, simplest nature of being beyond physical presence which can only be perceived through the paradox of aloneness in silence discovering the truth that we all are one and never really alone intellect, as you write of it, is a way to understanding albeit the long way around, beside, beneath seeing but not perceiving, knowing but not understanding feeling without believing making loneliness a precursor to aloneness at the end of the travels of the intellect is the beginning of the journey of the spirit... Mary *************************************************************** ...though intellect can take us to the end of the diving board, it's faith that gives us the courage to leap... Ram Dass *************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:52:32 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Mike...and Holly... Finally, I have found something to respond to. I feel pretty silly on this mailing list, and have been thinking of "unsubscribing", because I can't quite get into what this list is all about. What Holly said, and now you Mike, really hits home. Perhaps I am looking for the wrong things...or rather something this list is not meant to provide. And, sad to say, I do what Walter mentioned a few days back....I delete lots of the postings after just a cursory reading because they just don't apply to me. Thank you for bringing my concerns to light as well as yours. Ronni At 12:21 AM 11/30/96 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, Holly... > Actually your question is one of the reasons I never participated >here much. I own my own mailing list where the agenda is simple: we are >all dedicated to raising our levels of reality-based self-esteem. > I subscribe to Spoon and occasionally say my say there. They are >*nice* folk, completely undemanding... > This list seems to be for people who want to talk at a somewhat >deeper level than Spoon...in the sense of a deeper intellectual or >emotional energy being used for self-expression...but otherwise, as far >as I have observed, there is no other agenda. And...I could be wrong. > So, back to the present, huh... > I'm feeling a bit lonely now...like I want to run away to a far >place and never see LosAngeles again... > How about you? > >best, >Mike > > >Mike Rael, MS, instructional technology >lakid@netcom.com >listowner, self-esteem-self-help > >To subscribe, email:listserv@netcom.com No subject header >Message: subscribe self-esteem-self-help > >"If you have a serious, ongoing problem, you will be referred to a >therapist of your choice. The listowner, while experienced in these >areas, is not a licensed therapist." > > > >On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, holly williams-mcleod wrote: > >> I,m here Mr. Eagle >> This is the first mailing I have received since signing on to this >> mailing list. I am not alone, working the midnight shift. >> >> Can you tell me what usually gets discussed in this mailing group?? >> Are you stil awake???? >> HNWMc >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >> >> > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:04:53 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Re: Psybernet Focus. [ was Re: helloooo. . . .] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter: Good to hear you're doing well on your journey and that your laptop seems to be working. Hope that it continues. > >I think so. The focus is the to explore experientially, the impact of the >on-line media on our psyche. Glad to know the focus of the list, you may have said it before and I missed it but I enjoy the experiental part of what you're saying. > >This does not preclude theories to make sense of our experience, however it is >good to have the thinking linked to our experince . . . that way it is a living >thing . . . Experience is alive, isn't it? > >I have been driving for 3 days, listening to the radio and tapes. Enjoyed a >tape by Terence McKenna on McLuhan. His talk was right there on the Psybernet >theme. I have a McLuhan file on the Psybernet web site, to help define our >focus. He was influential in noting how media, unconsciously shaped our psyche. New Zealand must be a lot larger then I thought. >It seems a fairly simple focus to me, and I guess it becomes confusing, because >of the *experiential* aspect. Everything goes, because everything is an >experience. But we tend to bring it back to the main task. > >Think of the work we have done on silence. A small treatise . . . direct and >elegant. > >We could be more focussed on our task. I would not say we should be, it is a >huge one, and I think we are moving along fine. Glad that you said *could* instead of *should* because I might have reacted negatively if you had said *should*. I'm a little curious about what you mean about the confusion because of the *experiential* aspect? I don't see experience as being confusing. Also what is the main task? To make order out of chaos or something else? I've been silent again lately, because of the family activities during the Thanksgiving holiday here in the U.S. (my three year old granddaughter doesn't like it when I don't pay attention to her because I'm on my computer, and three year olds have a strong voice). In the water again. Janell > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:47:00 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Eagle Organization: Young Living Essential Oils Subject: Re: Purpose of Silence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mary F wrote: > > Eagle wrote: > > > > So Mike > > Take a break. > > Run away to the mountains. > > Get away from where you are for awhile. > > Rejuvinate yourself. Take care of yourself. > > Personally, I find the only time I am truly lonely? > > Is when I loose my connection to myself and to my God. > > Then I feel lonely. And I know it is time to sit and reconnect. > > > > Sit in the silence and reconnect. > > > > I too have noticed the depth of the intelluctual processing here. Which > > is also why I rarely post here. I am more interested in spirituality > > than in thinking for the sake of thinking. Not that all of the posts > > here are that, just my perception of of them. > > > > Blessings > > Sybil Soaring Eagle > > "Life is the song > > we came here to sing." > > Sybil Soaring Eagle > > Thanks for the recent messages > Just what I needed to see > printed, running across my screen > reminding me to look for more that the usual > black scribbles dancing meaninglessly on white fields > > The connection of which you speak > is the basic, simplest nature of being > beyond physical presence which can only be perceived > through the paradox of aloneness > in silence > discovering the truth that we all are one > and never really alone > > intellect, as you write of it, is a way to understanding > albeit the long way > around, beside, beneath > seeing but not perceiving, knowing but not understanding > feeling without believing > making loneliness a precursor to aloneness > > at the end of the travels of the intellect > is the beginning of the journey of the spirit... > > Mary > > *************************************************************** > ...though intellect can take us to the end of the diving board, > it's faith that gives us the courage to leap... > Ram Dass > *************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L Mary This is so beautiful. I love poetry! and I save it to read on days when I somehow feel disconnected and an intense need to get reconnected. I read the poetry that builds a bridge for the connection, then go into the silence and find teh connections that await me there. Blessings of Love and Light to you Sybil Soaring Eagle -- "Wisdom is not finally tested by the schools, Wisdom cannot be pass'd from one having it to another not having it, Wisdom is of the soul, is not susceptible of proof, it is its own proof. -- Walt Whitman, Song of the Open Road. Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers. -- Tennnyson, Locksley Hall _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 18:01:10 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Mike Rael Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961130165232.0069c868@proaxis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII But Ronni, What *are* your concerns? Mike Mike Rael lakid@netcom.com listowner, self-esteem-self-help To subscribe, email:listserv@netcom.com No subject header Message: subscribe self-esteem-self-help "If you have a serious, ongoing problem, you will be referred to a therapist of your choice. The listowner, while experienced in these areas, is not a licensed therapist." On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Ronni wrote: > Hi Mike...and Holly... > Finally, I have found something to respond to. I feel pretty silly on this > mailing list, and have been thinking of "unsubscribing", because I can't > quite get into what this list is all about. What Holly said, and now you > Mike, really hits home. Perhaps I am looking for the wrong things...or > rather something this list is not meant to provide. And, sad to say, I do > what Walter mentioned a few days back....I delete lots of the postings after > just a cursory reading because they just don't apply to me. > > Thank you for bringing my concerns to light as well as yours. > > Ronni > > At 12:21 AM 11/30/96 -0800, you wrote: > >Hi, Holly... > > Actually your question is one of the reasons I never participated > >here much. I own my own mailing list where the agenda is simple: we are > >all dedicated to raising our levels of reality-based self-esteem. > > I subscribe to Spoon and occasionally say my say there. They are > >*nice* folk, completely undemanding... > > This list seems to be for people who want to talk at a somewhat > >deeper level than Spoon...in the sense of a deeper intellectual or > >emotional energy being used for self-expression...but otherwise, as far > >as I have observed, there is no other agenda. And...I could be wrong. > > So, back to the present, huh... > > I'm feeling a bit lonely now...like I want to run away to a far > >place and never see LosAngeles again... > > How about you? > > > >best, > >Mike > > > > > >Mike Rael, MS, instructional technology > >lakid@netcom.com > >listowner, self-esteem-self-help > > > >To subscribe, email:listserv@netcom.com No subject header > >Message: subscribe self-esteem-self-help > > > >"If you have a serious, ongoing problem, you will be referred to a > >therapist of your choice. The listowner, while experienced in these > >areas, is not a licensed therapist." > > > > > > > >On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, holly williams-mcleod wrote: > > > >> I,m here Mr. Eagle > >> This is the first mailing I have received since signing on to this > >> mailing list. I am not alone, working the midnight shift. > >> > >> Can you tell me what usually gets discussed in this mailing group?? > >> Are you stil awake???? > >> HNWMc > >> > >> _______________________________________________________________ > >> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > >> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > >> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 18:14:20 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hmmm...I obviously spoke out of turn. It would be wiser for me to just sit and observe, I see. At 06:01 PM 11/30/96 -0800, you wrote: >But Ronni, > What *are* your concerns? >Mike > > >Mike Rael >lakid@netcom.com >listowner, self-esteem-self-help > >To subscribe, email:listserv@netcom.com No subject header >Message: subscribe self-esteem-self-help > >"If you have a serious, ongoing problem, you will be referred to a >therapist of your choice. The listowner, while experienced in these >areas, is not a licensed therapist." > > > >On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Ronni wrote: > >> Hi Mike...and Holly... >> Finally, I have found something to respond to. I feel pretty silly on this >> mailing list, and have been thinking of "unsubscribing", because I can't >> quite get into what this list is all about. What Holly said, and now you >> Mike, really hits home. Perhaps I am looking for the wrong things...or >> rather something this list is not meant to provide. And, sad to say, I do >> what Walter mentioned a few days back....I delete lots of the postings after >> just a cursory reading because they just don't apply to me. >> >> Thank you for bringing my concerns to light as well as yours. >> >> Ronni >> >> At 12:21 AM 11/30/96 -0800, you wrote: >> >Hi, Holly... >> > Actually your question is one of the reasons I never participated >> >here much. I own my own mailing list where the agenda is simple: we are >> >all dedicated to raising our levels of reality-based self-esteem. >> > I subscribe to Spoon and occasionally say my say there. They are >> >*nice* folk, completely undemanding... >> > This list seems to be for people who want to talk at a somewhat >> >deeper level than Spoon...in the sense of a deeper intellectual or >> >emotional energy being used for self-expression...but otherwise, as far >> >as I have observed, there is no other agenda. And...I could be wrong. >> > So, back to the present, huh... >> > I'm feeling a bit lonely now...like I want to run away to a far >> >place and never see LosAngeles again... >> > How about you? >> > >> >best, >> >Mike >> > >> > >> >Mike Rael, MS, instructional technology >> >lakid@netcom.com >> >listowner, self-esteem-self-help >> > >> >To subscribe, email:listserv@netcom.com No subject header >> >Message: subscribe self-esteem-self-help >> > >> >"If you have a serious, ongoing problem, you will be referred to a >> >therapist of your choice. The listowner, while experienced in these >> >areas, is not a licensed therapist." >> > >> > >> > >> >On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, holly williams-mcleod wrote: >> > >> >> I,m here Mr. Eagle >> >> This is the first mailing I have received since signing on to this >> >> mailing list. I am not alone, working the midnight shift. >> >> >> >> Can you tell me what usually gets discussed in this mailing group?? >> >> Are you stil awake???? >> >> HNWMc >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> >> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >> >> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >> >> >> >> >> > >> >_______________________________________________________________ >> >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >> >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >> > >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >> >> > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 18:10:05 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Mike Rael Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961201021420.0068ce0c@proaxis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ronni, You did not talk out of turn. But...what *are* your concerns?? Mike _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 18:36:12 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Ronni Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Actually, I wasn't finished with that last before it got sent. Sorry. My concerns? I don't know where I saw this list "advertised", but it sounded like something I am interested in. After I started reading some of the postings, I realized I am entirely out of my depth. I do not have a doctorate, a masters, or even a bachelor's in psychology, as you all seem to. I do not write poetry, nor do I understand a lot of it. I have gone back and re-read the purpose of this list, and I do not think I would have done anything differently, given the explanations by Walter. However, I think now that I may be a "wannabe"....I am not intellectual enough to keep up. I am a trainer, helping people help themselves. This particular subject is interesting to me, but I seem to lack the credentials for this particular list. Unfortunately, this is the first list I ever subscribed to. I regret having said anything at this point. Ronni At 06:10 PM 11/30/96 -0800, you wrote: >Ronni, > You did not talk out of turn. But...what *are* your concerns?? > >Mike > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 20:40:48 -0900 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: hellooooooooooooooooooooo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ronni writes: > I realized I am entirely out of my depth. Oh dear, hi Walter and all -- Ronni, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your depth whatever it is, and absolutely nothing that says only one depth need apply to swim in this particular pool. > I do not have a doctorate, a masters, or even a bachelor's in > psychology, as you all seem to. Hey, no problem... because dammit a doctorate is perhaps the equivalent in mental athletics of being on the swimming or track team in college, a pretty impressive achievement and something for its possessor to be proud of -- but there's absolutely no reason why it should bother you in the slightest if you don't have one... each of us is different, and you didn't choose to make that particular team, as I say, no problem... > I do not write poetry, nor do I understand a lot of it. I think that's a pity, myself, because most of the people who quote poetry here probably do it as a way of getting around the "doctorate" problem. But let me explain: the problem with being a bit of a "mental athlete" is that we're designed to use both mind and heart -- and when we are very good indeed at thinking, it's both a blessing and a curse. It allows us to see and know and understand some things in a great deal of interesting detail, and to exchange ideas in a kind of shorthand with others who share our areas of knowledge -- but it also means we sometimes get disconnected from our feelings, and have to go back to square one to make contact again. And poetry is a language of feelings -- so it's a convenient way for the people with doctorates to "cut to the chase", and also for the people without them to make sure that the heart and its feelings are as much a part of what happens on the list as the mind and its thoughts... Because both are valuable... and because the heart is *supposed* to function as a check on the mind, and the mind is *supposed* to function as a check on the heart. > I have gone back and re-read the purpose of this list, and I do not > think I would have done anything differently, given the > explanations by Walter. Exactly: you're in the right place, and you just need to get used to the two languages (doctorates and poetry) and find your own voice, which because it is yours will be just as appreciated here as any of the others. > However, I think now that I may be a "wannabe"... You're letting other people's voices intimidate you, I think... > I am not intellectual enough to keep up. You don't have to understand everything on list to keep up, none of us has the time to read and respond to everything -- all you have to do is to find the parts that interest you, and comment... > I am a trainer, helping people help themselves. This particular > subject is interesting to me, but I seem to lack the credentials for > this particular list. And here's the absolute heart of the thing. You're a trainer, helping people: that's about as good a credential as any in the known universe. And you're helping them help themselves -- so you already know that they don't always know just what they're capable of. You have an *excellent* credential for membership of this list -- and *you* don't know it. > Unfortunately, this is the first list I ever subscribed to. I regret > having said anything at this point. And that's the pay-off, if you allow it to be: regret followed by silence. Don't buy into it. Any story that ends in regret followed by shut-down is a sad story, and you don't have to live it. When the list contains posts from people who obviously have doctorates or whatever, let them glory in it: they are using a gift they have to communicate that way, and it's just fine. When the list contains posts from people who quote poetry, let them enjoy it: they are using another gift to release another part of their being, and it's just fine. But if all the intellect and all the poetry in the world washes right over you, and you can still tell us your story, in your voice, you're not out of your depth at all, you're surfing a magnificent wave... Okay? And I say this as someone who holds a Masters from Oxford and publishes poetry... I happen to *love* the intellect and it's brilliance, I happen to *love* the heart and its beauty: but people come first, and brilliance and beauty are ornaments to make life finer, not weapons to keep you down. With best wishes, and a beeeg smile and hug for Walter, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 23:43:07 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Janell F. Adair" Subject: Understanding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Ronni and all: Ronni, I wanted to take a moment and respond to a couple of the points you said in your recent response to Mike. >My concerns? I don't know where I saw this list "advertised", but it >sounded like something I am interested in. After I started reading some of >the postings, I realized I am entirely out of my depth. I do not have a >doctorate, a masters, or even a bachelor's in psychology, as you all seem >to. I do not write poetry, nor do I understand a lot of it. I have gone >back and re-read the purpose of this list, and I do not think I would have >done anything differently, given the explanations by Walter. However, I >think now that I may be a "wannabe"....I am not intellectual enough to keep >up. I am a trainer, helping people help themselves. This particular >subject is interesting to me, but I seem to lack the credentials for this >particular list. >Unfortunately, this is the first list I ever subscribed to. I regret having >said anything at this point. You may not be alone when you express some of your *feelings* and something you contribute may be enlightening to others. Even if it's not, it's still worth hearing. I know there aren't any credentials for this list and I'm sorry that you regret having said something. I can understand and appreciate differences within the list, and to be prefectly honest with you I've never been big on poetry myself, but it's refreshing to hear how others respond. Here's one person that hopes you'll stay, even if your silent for a time. :) I haven't always been as talkative in this media as I sometimes am in face to face discussion. Enjoying the water. Janell > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L