To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9609"
From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)"              <LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:44 -0400

=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 05:11:14 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      PWP, Elaine Macpherson

Greetings to all of Psyber-L,

Elaine wrote

>I'm a laboratory geochemist by training, but have also become involved in
counselling work over the last couple of years. I'm intersted in
psychological theorems of many types, but particularly in the works by
Kohut and by Jung. However, my meager academic training in this area means
that I am interested in what you all have to say, but sometimes have trouble
with your "jargonese". Perhaps you might take that into consideration if
you are going to post the eventual result of your group onto the net.<

Thanks for comming out of the silence. From my own experience as a
non-psychologist I can say that reading the messages on this list gives
valuable impulses for looking up things I don't understand and to get my hand
on books which are mentioned in the discussions. Recently, I was in the US and
one of my objectives (fringe benefit of a business trip) was a big book-store
in Boston where I explored the availability of some of the books.
Unfortunately, I was only partly successful but I keep trying, also at home.

>I am unsure about voluteering for the group experiment.I am interested ,
but I have relatively limited time and I am unsure what I can contribute if
the group interactions are to take a similar form to those currently
being posted to this group.<

I think that the amount of time one has is not too important since most of the
thinking and reflecting takes place away from the terminal (perhaps in the lab
preparing some samples), anyway, sometimes subconciously. Maybe it's a kind of
parallel processing going on. Furthermore, it is not important to write long
messages but trying to express your thinking about a certain topics is a very
valuable experience.

Regards, FRITZ

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Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 11:50:56 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Bent B=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F8gedal Christoffersen ?= <bbc@CYBERNET.DK>
Subject:      From a Newcomer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Hello Walter and Everybody
 Thank You for the varm Welcome Walter =

You wrote:
<Your posts have some extra characters:  "=3D" which appear, =

I think this is because you may not be using pure "ASCII text" =

(American standards once again -- useful for all that >

I am working on the problem but to change my
Danish motherboard into US courses a lot of trouble

<I wish we could offer you a translation service!  =

I have no experience in . . .  is it Danish?  I can read Dutch, =

and sometimes that gives me a clue . . . However your English in =

this post is very clear, and I am sure I can live with posts that
perhaps use unusual forms of syntax or words>

Its Danish, and its not very known, but I keep on
and live with my limitations
                          -----------
 How in the world should I wiev A Mail List Group?
At first I saw it as a hole long list or row of
people and could not find head or tail, but after a few
days, something came up, I guess from small fragments =

from reading,the letters from August.So I decided
to limit my self  to wiev August as it seem to me that =

the June letters are kind of ending something.
 I suddenly remembered . When Im  a member of
big groups such as psychoterapygroup with f.eks 25 people I =

useually contribute to the  work of the group by
collecting thoughts and points of wiev from the other members
then my head starts to rumble and spin and my creative side =

is starting and at some point I useually come up with something
that can bring the group going or giving individuals respond
that they can use.
 Why not start there I said to myself.Instead of wieving
the group as a list I simply see it as a group:
Sitting in a circle with Mr.Logeman as the leader or facilitator
In the big Circle all the members of the List and in the middle
all members who had written anything in this month
I call it the 0896 group.
 That was my starring point, going back to how
I usually did it and It suddenly became clearer to me what
Walter ment.
<Being 'present' here is not like being present in a physical group>
<Nor should we, because *time* is different here -- asynchronous --
that is a *feature* of this medium, and we need to use it to our
advantage, and there are many . . . one is that we can get behind and
catch up, that there is no pressure to be at an appointment, that we
can fit something into our lives as it suits, that we can work on
something in depth and then post, etc.
I think we are not used to that, that it has not been named fully,
that having a group in cyberspace will have dimensions to it that we
do not yet understand.>

 And to keep on the with the picture, I could also view
the group as onedimensional pictures on chairs, without
any faces, just faceless except for Walter
<I have never managed to post mine to the web, but have thought about =

it . . . What do you think?>
I,dont know how you look but I picture You as a fairly big man with
beard, ?? interesting, so if You decide to put Your pic on
the net it could be a  interesting experience.
Walter asked ?
<Bent I presume you have web access?>
 O.k I have web access and a homepage mostly in danish
but also with pictures and sounds and .........(lots of experiments)
http://www.cybernet.dk/users/bbc/
 but back to where I started, I decided to wiev all the =

letters from 0896 and try to understand as mucht as
possible =

<I am delighted to see you all here . . . confirmation that I am not =

simply writing to myself, though
that would be OK too!  To write to myself, thats what I do sometimes =

on my homepage as not many
people give respons, a thinking pot, >
<Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience of
the medium.  We voice that learning.  Forming relationships of a
collegial nature around our psychological net interests is an
important part of the work>
---------------------------
 In the ring went Simon G. Trask and  dropped a
small pebbel into the waters of this psyber-lake
<plop>
Beautiful and the waves still wanders, just a little plop
and so much effect.!! =

The next person Dough Dunn
<I am getting curiouser and curioser, methinks this is going to be =

intersting> interesting.
And so do I
Then next Dr.Schmidt from who I learned me that there are at
least 80 people in my Outercircle and Walter,Dough,
simon,dr.Schmidt and me are in the middle??
<Psyber-L is a very timely one. I enjoyed the exchanges on the =

various topics
discussed and although I am somewhat critical on the psychological =

dimension
of the psyber-space I must admit that each morning I am looking into =

my
mailbox with a sense of expectation wondering if news from =

Psyber-space
emerged. Looking at differences between a real group session and this
psyber-space group I notice that in a real group session the response =

to a
statement is immediate, that is with a time constant given by the =

duration of
the session. Here, at the Psyber-L group the response is delayed by a =

much
longer time. >
 I learnt now that what is happening in one month, may
be what happen in a real group session in 1 - 2 hours
but no groups would give about 48 hours before You
could come up with an answer.
<.  As soon as as one of the people I work
with begins to speak of the "past", it becomes the present.>

But I could never go back to that day, this is significant
for this media go back and  make the past present.
 Im getting theese aha thoughts all the time

Now the next Dan =

Talking about the time in a online group, =

<Yes, in a online group (except chat) we can carefully prepare
and edit our posts. This gives us the opportunity to more =

articulately express our thoughts and
emotions -or- to
rationalise and cover our real inner selves> =

and so now we have this months innergroup.
Walter Logeman,Simon G.Trask,Dough Dunn,Dr.Schmidt ,Dan,
Stuart Currie and Pixie Ferris, Miles Thompson
Elaine Macpherson Barb Chandler, Sieur de Cyberie and
Bent B. Christoffersen
 Dr.Schmidt wrote
<Sometimes I thought that I would like to have a clearer idea about =

the people
of this group. So,  of some I have assembled a virtual file in my =

mind,
putting together all the personal bits of information which I =

gathered from
the various messages combined with an imagination of their physical
appearance. The reality (photograph on the WEB) may be a shock>
 =

So this interest me about this media, how do You people of the list =

see
our psyber-L group???
Its quite a group to imagine and  only a couple of the members are
about to become pictures in my head.
-- =

Bent B=F8gedal Christoffersen
Galgebakken Skr=E6nt 4 - 8 b
2620 Albertslund
Denmark
http://www.cybernet.dk/users/bbc/

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 11:57:21 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Bent B=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F8gedal Christoffersen ?= <bbc@CYBERNET.DK>
Subject:      From a Newcomer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Walter and Everybody
 Thank You for the varm Welcome Walter
You wrote:
<Your posts have some extra characters:  "=3D" which appear,
I think this is because you may not be using pure "ASCII text"
(American standards once again -- useful for all that >

I am working on the problem but to change my
Danish motherboard into US courses a lot of trouble

<I wish we could offer you a translation service!
I have no experience in . . .  is it Danish?  I can read Dutch,
and sometimes that gives me a clue . . . However your English in
this post is very clear, and I am sure I can live with posts that
perhaps use unusual forms of syntax or words>

Its Danish, and its not very known, but I keep on
and live with my limitations
                          -----------
 How in the world should I wiev A Mail List Group?
At first I saw it as a hole long list or row of
people and could not find head or tail, but after a few
days, something came up, I guess from small fragments
from reading,the letters from August.So I decided
to limit my self  to wiev August as it seem to me that
the June letters are kind of ending something.
 I suddenly remembered . When Im  a member of
big groups such as psychoterapygroup with f.eks 25 people I
useually contribute to the  work of the group by
collecting thoughts and points of wiev from the other members
then my head starts to rumble and spin and my creative side
is starting and at some point I useually come up with something
that can bring the group going or giving individuals respond
that they can use.
 Why not start there I said to myself.Instead of wieving
the group as a list I simply see it as a group:
Sitting in a circle with Mr.Logeman as the leader or facilitator
In the big Circle all the members of the List and in the middle
all members who had written anything in this month
I call it the 0896 group.
 That was my starring point, going back to how
I usually did it and It suddenly became clearer to me what
Walter ment.
<Being 'present' here is not like being present in a physical group>
<Nor should we, because *time* is different here -- asynchronous --
that is a *feature* of this medium, and we need to use it to our
advantage, and there are many . . . one is that we can get behind and
catch up, that there is no pressure to be at an appointment, that we
can fit something into our lives as it suits, that we can work on
something in depth and then post, etc.
I think we are not used to that, that it has not been named fully,
that having a group in cyberspace will have dimensions to it that we
do not yet understand.>

 And to keep on the with the picture, I could also view
the group as onedimensional pictures on chairs, without
any faces, just faceless except for Walter
<I have never managed to post mine to the web, but have thought about it
=2E . . What do you think?>
I,dont know how you look but I picture You as a fairly big man with
beard, ?? interesting, so if You decide to put Your pic on
the net it could be a  interesting experience.
Walter asked ?
<Bent I presume you have web access?>
 O.k I have web access and a homepage mostly in danish
but also with pictures and sounds and .........(lots of experiments)
http://www.cybernet.dk/users/bbc/
 but back to where I started, I decided to wiev all the
letters from 0896 and try to understand as mucht as
possible
<I am delighted to see you all here . . . confirmation that I am not
simply writing to myself, though
that would be OK too!  To write to myself, thats what I do sometimes on
my homepage as not many
people give respons, a thinking pot, >
<Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience of
the medium.  We voice that learning.  Forming relationships of a
collegial nature around our psychological net interests is an
important part of the work>
---------------------------
 In the ring went Simon G. Trask and  dropped a
small pebbel into the waters of this psyber-lake
<plop>
Beautiful and the waves still wanders, just a little plop
and so much effect.!!
The next person Dough Dunn
<I am getting curiouser and curioser, methinks this is going to be
intersting> interesting.
And so do I
Then next Dr.Schmidt from who I learned me that there are at
least 80 people in my Outercircle and Walter,Dough,
simon,dr.Schmidt and me are in the middle??
<Psyber-L is a very timely one. I enjoyed the exchanges on the various
topics
discussed and although I am somewhat critical on the psychological
dimension
of the psyber-space I must admit that each morning I am looking into my
mailbox with a sense of expectation wondering if news from Psyber-space
emerged. Looking at differences between a real group session and this
psyber-space group I notice that in a real group session the response to
a
statement is immediate, that is with a time constant given by the
duration of
the session. Here, at the Psyber-L group the response is delayed by a
much
longer time. >
 I learnt now that what is happening in one month, may
be what happen in a real group session in 1 - 2 hours
but no groups would give about 48 hours before You
could come up with an answer.
<.  As soon as as one of the people I work
with begins to speak of the "past", it becomes the present.>

But I could never go back to that day, this is significant
for this media go back and  make the past present.
 Im getting theese aha thoughts all the time

Now the next Dan
Talking about the time in a online group,
<Yes, in a online group (except chat) we can carefully prepare
and edit our posts. This gives us the opportunity to more articulately
express our thoughts and
emotions -or- to
rationalise and cover our real inner selves>
and so now we have this months innergroup.
Walter Logeman,Simon G.Trask,Dough Dunn,Dr.Schmidt ,Dan,
Stuart Currie and Pixie Ferris, Miles Thompson
Elaine Macpherson Barb Chandler, Sieur de Cyberie and
Bent B. Christoffersen
 Dr.Schmidt wrote
<Sometimes I thought that I would like to have a clearer idea about the
people
of this group. So,  of some I have assembled a virtual file in my mind,
putting together all the personal bits of information which I gathered
from
the various messages combined with an imagination of their physical
appearance. The reality (photograph on the WEB) may be a shock>
 =

So this interest me about this media, how do You people of the list see
our psyber-L group???
Its quite a group to imagine and  only a couple of the members are
about to become pictures in my head.
--
Bent B=F8gedal Christoffersen
Galgebakken Skr=E6nt 4 - 8 b
2620 Albertslund
Denmark
http://www.cybernet.dk/users/bbc/



-- =

Bent B=F8gedal Christoffersen
Galgebakken Skr=E6nt 4 - 8 b
2620 Albertslund
http://www.cybernet.dk/users/bbc/

_______________________________________________________________
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LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:27:04 +0930
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Carole Pinnock <C.Pinnock@FLINDERS.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Chickle Schtick
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Has anyone read "Chicken Little: the inside story?" (Inner City Books)

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Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:57:26 +0100
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From:         Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hmmm

activity

Interesting...

Wilbur...earth to wilbur..come in please.

wuv

Dolores

A MENTAL PICTURE OF WALTER

P.S In my mind Walter has longish brown/grey wavy hair, slightly wild in
construction.. it would be longer but he has to make some semblance of
cultivating a professional image,  a beard, or he shaves during the week but
not at weekends,  wears jeans alot. but would happily live in a Kaftan.
He.never wears a tie unless at weddings and funerals..He is reasonably
tall..bout 5'10/11. His desk is organised, but theres an underlying affinity
with chaos theory which he has to work at to keep in check. Everywhere is
cluttered with books.
He isn't fat though there might be the odd love handle, which he keeps
promising to getting round to doing something about.  His favorite room in
the house is probably the kitchen. His house is probably a mix of
ethic/modern in decor..and its definitly not in the suburbs. I dont imagine
Walter washing the car on Sunday after he has mowed the lawn.
He watches little T.V.. but listens to alot of music. He doesnt smoke. He
hardly ever eats chocolate. if it wasnt for Kate he'd probably forget to
eat.  Car hmm well  he drives a fairly sensible car, but not an estate,
prob about 5 years old.. its reasonably clean inside,  and he does not race
people at traffic lights.  I think he keeps to speed limits within reason
and never gives other  motorists the finger.

Cant decide if he is a dog or a cat person.. will go for Cat though. Theres
a sanity to cats that I think he appreciates.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 16:16:27 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      The time has come

Hi to all,

don't take everything seriously what is being told, here.
How is the shaving situation, Laurel?

>A MENTAL PICTURE OF WALTER<

He does rock climbing, so he has to be in good physical shape. His hair is
probably fair, showing his Dutch heritage. He likes outdoor activities which
means that his car is probably a station wagon. If he is comfortable in a
Kaftan then he likes to smoke. I think his favorite place in the house isn't
the kitchen, but the bedroom. He does not have to mow the lawn, there is none.
One of his rooms is cluttered, though not with books but with computers and
alike.

Hello Bent,
I liked your description of the group situation. Actually, this is what Walter
envisages for his PW-project, I think.
Your second version of the message arrived without all the funny characters.
You are on the right track.
Regards to all, FRITZ (still with a mustache)

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Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:37:22 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "James V. Dimmick" <72262.2556@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Chickle Schtick
Comments: cc: JVD <jdimmick@ix.netcom.com>

To All:
  Thank you Carole.  Your antipodal post from down under is most welcome.
  I read with care this past year "Chicken Little:..."
  I was able to locate it this morning (Monday Sept. 9) without too much
trouble and now look forward eagerly to your next post.
       regards, Jim the Elder   (because I might be the eldest if
                                 not the wisest of the Jims)

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Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:18:36 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Chickle Schtick
In-Reply-To:  <v01530500ae505f5ca352@[129.96.250.169]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Carole,

Yes! Therein even lay a story. ;^)

First of all, the Chicken Little episode is part of a saga beginning with
the author, Daryl Sharp's <<Survival Papers I & II>>, which themselves
concern the account of the developing individuation of one Arnold, and, not
surprisingly, also of the author/therapist. The Chicken Little tale brings
fully onto the scene the redoubtable Adam Brillig and itself spins off the
recent <<Who, Am I Really?>> (and evidently a soon to be published,
<<Living Jung>>.

My own integration very much was in part an inner city affair. An
inveterate manifestation of the workings of the puer aeternus is what have
I. As it did indeed happen, first the work of Marion Woodman published by
Sharp's Inner City, (especially <<The Pregnant Virgin>>,) helped me see a
framework through which a little, no, a lot, of dreamwork, then allowed me
to establish a flight pattern which subsequently allowed me to

...land.

The <<Survival Papers>> came at the end of an immersion in Jung's
work(ings) and  were ideally timed almost as an answering narrative so much
do Sharp's books talk about experiences echoing my own.

***

Interestingly, I had occasion to ask Daryl for some consideration when I
discovered that there was a confusing alternative printing of The Survival
Papers which to my slight dismay caused me to duplicate volume II. He was
kind enough to send me one of Mary Lousie Von Franz's books and <<Chicken
Little>> hot off the press.

***

Even of more interest is Daryl's cyber presence in the Jung newsgroup where
he serves as the curmudgeon and protector of Jungian process as a serious
grown-up commitment and does so against all the glibbery, proffered
innovation, new age synthesizing, and psycho-syncretism so prevalent on,
well, usenet.

Not a droll presence especially, either! That came as a surprise to me.
But, I would suggest Daryl Sharp knows, and he knows he knows, and he also
knows he knows not, which might be said to be the essence of a deeply
Jungian stance, my opinion, and at the same time, not a common stance for
most contributors to the Jungian newsgroup. (He's not a participant on John
Hollwitz's Jung listserv.)

***

For more information about Inner City Books: http://www.inforamp.net/~icb

Concerning Daryl's new book:

   "In Living Jung Sharp continues his fantastic balancing act between serious
soul-search and entertainment. The author and his creature, Adam Brillig,
are an
extraordinary fit, neatly complementing theories of reason with the freest
intuitions
of creative imagination in a surprising but unforced way. All of which is
firmly
grounded in sensual enjoyment of life as it is." - D.C.B., Toronto.

Well said whoever you are DCB.

***

Best to all,

hoon








>Has anyone read "Chicken Little: the inside story?" (Inner City Books)
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



           \\\|///
         \\ ~   ~ //
          (  @ @  )
 -------oo00-(_)-00oo---------
|                             |
|     Stephen Calhoun         |
|       hoon@apk.net          |
| http://junior.apk.net/~hoon |
|                             |
 -----------------------------

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:28:58 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         *TEJ** <tss5a@WATT.SEAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Chickle Schtick
In-Reply-To:  <960903003722_72262.2556_IHC81-1@CompuServe.COM> from "James V.
              Dimmick" at Sep 2, 96 08:37:22 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

HOw do i unsbuscribe from this list? thanks.
--

             ```````````````    ````````````    ``````````````
              ```````````````    ````````````    ``````````````
                    ```           ```                  ````
                     ```           ``````               ````
                      ```           ```                  ````
                       ```           ````````````   ```   ````
                         ```                          ``````````
                                ***********************
                                *       Tej Shah      *
                                *   tss5a@virginia.edu*
                                *     (804)977-4208   *
                                ***********************

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:57:17 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Chickle Schtick
In-Reply-To:  <v03007800ae514cf3143a@[199.18.253.211]>

Hoon,

> Yes! Therein even lay a story. ;^)

Thanks for the interesting stuff on Daryl Sharp his books and web
site, I will add some reading to my list & some on-line shopping.

Good to see you,

Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:57:38 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      more ripples
In-Reply-To:  <3226F71F.704A@gvn.net>

All, especially, the new faces (grin) and the older ones back
from the depths.

I had some fun listening to the descriptions of myself.
Everything fits, and while I have no beard, I used to have one,
no kaftan, but I like those Fijian wrap arounds.  I don't smoke,
but used to and still miss them.  Fit enough, but always needing
to trim a few kilos, especially after the winter.  Lots of books.
I have a 1990 station wagon, live in the inner city, in a big old
house.  Lawns?  Not my thing, but I do them occasionally.  No TV,
definitely music, but recently catching up on movies via video.

So the descriptions were spot on.

~~~

I have been working hard lately, and somewhat unexpectedly, but
looking forward to more intese involment here . . . starting on
13 October I will have a break from my practice for a week, and
that would be a good time to start the Psybernet ~ Web Project,
PWP, I will be able to give it lots of attention.  I am looking
forward to it.

I hope more enrol.  Miles?  Dan?  I liked what you said Fritz:

|    I think that the amount of time one has is not too important
|    since most of the thinking and reflecting takes place away from
|    the terminal (perhaps in the lab preparing some samples),
|    anyway, sometimes subconsciously.

Of course it then takes up that precious subconscious time, and
can eat into ordinary clock time, in the form of absent
mindedness, it does for me.


All for now.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:55:24 +0930
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Carole Pinnock <C.Pinnock@FLINDERS.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Chickle Shtick
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

To Jim the Elder and Hoon

Thank you for your contributions re the Chicken Little conundrum. Thankyou
also for the web site, Hoon. I have just had an excellent surf around it -
a very exciting source of Jung, and also learnt more of the enigmatic Daryl
Sharp.

The story of CL appears to be an entertaining  detective story -  Jung
info-tainment, so to speak, until you realise that some of it is becoming
quite numinous. This feeling- that one's own psyche is becoming involved-
grows. By the time you reach the final page, and turn the next... your
realise that the experiment, in fact,  may be real and that you may be part
of it.

Your post, Hoon, has confirmed this. I was fascinated to read your story.

Incidentally, I learnt from the JungSurf, that there will soon be a whole
conference on the power of narrative and metaphor. How fitting!

Adam Brillig, come in!!

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Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:07:02 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "James V. Dimmick" <72262.2556@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      chickle schtick
Comments: cc: JVD <jdimmick@ix.netcom.com>

To All:
   Thank you thank you thank you Carole for your posting "re Chicken Little".
   It awoke such a wonderful response from Hoon.  I have been re-reading
Chicken Little in spite of being cought up in Laurens van der Posts
"Lost World of Kalahari".
   Recently I talked (Voice on Net) with a young man in Durban S.A.
he was troubled by the events in South Africa and was considering going
out to Australia.  He was Dutch judging by his name.  So I have also been
reading and enjoying van der Post.
   Starting in 1942 I spent three years in Melbourne and Sydney but
missed Adelaide which is (I think) where you are located.
   At the moment my wife Betty is at Abraxis outside of Toronto where
Marion Woodman is doing a seminar for about 30 women.  Needless to say,
we are most energized by what she is doing and I had not understood
how Hoon fit into that "Inner City World".  I attended a two day seminar
with Marion in San Francisco a few years back.  Very stimulating!
   I spent part of today surfing <<http://inforamp.net/~icb>>.  An
ideal occupation on a hot day.
   On another posting I was delighted to learn that Walter doesn't
tend a lawn.  That put him on a special pedestal for me.  I havn't
tended a lawn in many many years.  Out front is ivy.
   Enough.
                  The very best to all:   Jim the elder.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:38:30 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Media Native Content

"Media Native Content"

I attended the opening of the "CyberMall", here in Christchurch
recently.  Psybernet's web pages are in the Business section of
the mall, and it was interesting to be part of the developments
into this commercial area on the web, even though malls and
commerce are not really my thing.

They aim to make it a "place" in cyberspace, where people come
together.  Can it work this way?  While the Britten motorcycle
company, and Revolution shoes, are both interesting sites, who
would be interested in both?  Even though I am in the Mall people
are more likely to find Psybernet from Alta Vista, or from a Jung
page.  Anyway, I have a button on the main page to the mall, OK
by me, I get good service from the ISP, and a shoe buyer might
just stumble onto Psybernet and find something there that also
fits.

Malls in cyberspace are repackaged from the suburban equivalent,
and not Media Native, I say that without wanting to knock the
hard working enthusiasts I met with at the opening!  The
graphical and web page work is of excellent quality.  It has
heightened my awareness of what might be more native to the
media, even when it comes to malls.  Dan and I have been
reflecting this theme for ages, it is the opposite of a mall,
delivery of highly customised information based on your taste
straight to your screen, that is the direction of the future.

~~~

More relevant to Psybernet is that we are developing Media Native
content in the sphere of psychological work.  What is it that we
can do here that is not better done face-to-face?  This is our
media:
asynchronous communication, connection with people from many
parts of the world, high speed and easily manipulated text, and
the phenomena of LINKS especially in the form of hypertext.

All of these things have a psychological import.  Writing has
always been a window to the soul.  Think of the attending to
psyche that has occurred in the form of literature, poetry,
letters, journals, and deliberately psychological writing, such
as case history, and mythological reflection.  Text is important
for this work.  Music and art, will also find a place in the
multimedia of Psyberspace

Relationships, are a vehicle for the psyche, the therapeutic
relationship, marriage, groups, ritual, to name some.  The net is
a way of connecting people, and in a particular way that fosters
the very stuff of psyche:  projection, transference and
countertransference.  On the Internet we are able to be
collective and individual, and thus imersed in both these aspects
of the unconscious.

The asynchronous mode allows for reflection.  Reflection,
introspection, meditation are combined easily here with that
other psychological catalyst the Here & Now.

As a psychodramatist I am conscious that making links reveals
psyche, it is reflected in the choices we make.
Interconnections, juxtapositions, patterns are the stuff of the
soul.

Just as the dreamtime is another realm in which the psyche lives,
we are in a new realm, that is inherently psychological.

~~~

Alfred Hitchcock said that the chase was native to the media of
film.  Was he right.  Car chases aside, Speed aside, many films
embody a chase of some sort.  The romantic chase, the chase of a
criminal, the search for an object.  A long linear piece of
cellophane, with a beginning and an end, revealed in an hour or
two, where we are caught in the stream of the medium, where we
are in a parallel situation of being in something that is going
fast.  Think of how this psychological identification is used in
such classic scenes as the coal cart that is flying down tracks
in the dark, with the hero and heroine gripping their chair just
like we do in our seats.

~~~

The printing press created the novel.  Television's most native
content is the music video.  The Internet is in its moment of
birth and the native content is still in formation.  I have great
hopes for what we are doing here.  The Dream Event and the new
Psybernet ~ Web Project, PWP are using all of the unique
strengths of the media . . . we must be onto something.

~~~

To conclude, there is another aspect of the media, with
psychological import, which I think we are coming to grips with.
The fee for service aspect, has played a huge part in the fibre
of psychotherapy, and group work, determining the exact
functional difference between client and therapist.  (See my
recent post,  Subject: Re: Can Psyber-L stand for
Psyber-Laboratory  Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 00:15:13)  Here where
information (interaction) wants to be free, new relationship
structures are being formed . . . distinction between leader and
member is blurred, not only in Psybernet but in many other group
endeavours of a psychological nature on the Internet.  How will
this develop?


All for now . . .



Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:32:59 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Media Native Content

Hi to all,

this essay about the media native content is very interesting since it
presents nicely the different aspects of information and communication and its
interrelation with the psyche.
Just a few thoughts:

>asynchronous communication, connection with people from many
parts of the world, high speed and easily manipulated text, and
the phenomena of LINKS especially in the form of hypertext.<

Just as in a group, the participants in the internet are actors and spectators
at the same time. In all other media, the direction of flow of communication
is unidirectional. Movies, TV, novels transmit information the the viewers. In
a theater or opera performance, there is a certain interaction between actors
and spectators in the sense of emotional responses of the latter ones to what
is going on on stage. The same is true even stronger at musical performances
where an emotional feedback between performers and audience can bring out
excellent, outstanding presentations by the solists, musical group, band,
singers etc.. An example, I like, are Jam-sessions of Jazz groups.
Here, in the INTERNET we are authors, solists, singers and listeners, readers,
viewers all the time. Those of us who want to develop and perfect their
abilities of communication, of presentation of thoughts, of writing and style
have ample space to do so, and, hopefully, experience friendly (not
necessarily consenting) responses by the participants.

> Dan and I have been reflecting this theme for ages, it is the opposite of a
mall, delivery of highly customised information based on your taste
straight to your screen, that is the direction of the future.<

Information processing and retrieval are key factors in the INTERNET. For
example, I tried to find information on certain problems and employed one of
the search machines. The result is always a huge number of references most of
which are useless. Even with dedicated data banks it often occurs that
references kreep in which have nothing to do with what I was looking for. This
points towards the importance of the evaluation of the information contents
and its right coding with respect to keywords.

Finally, just publish the address of the Christchurch-Mall; if the shoe shop
has a special offer we might decide to fly in to pick up the bargain.

Regards, FRITZ

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:13:53 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Bent B. Christoffersen" <bbc@CYBERNET.DK>
Subject:      Media Native Content
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A Shoewrite to every body
< a shoe buyer might
just stumble onto Psybernet and find something there that also
fits.>
 I'm a pair of shoes, big Uk 11,5 Us 12,5.my name is Bent, white,blue
red,Yellow,black and gray.Im not expensive but then again not very
cheep.I have my principles and cannot be bought to fit any kind of feet,
sometimes I can not compromise. If some feet are trying to do so
anyhow they will learn that I will not be a easy pair of shoes. I will =

soon give You blisters and sour feet, and You will soon drop me in the
nearest wastebasket, or hate that you ever tried to buy me. But if you
learn to know me Im a pair of  solid kind of shoes that you can thrust
and depend on. I will cary You as good as I can and support You in
every effort you have movin around this turning and changing world. =

And I will survive somehow. I like to walk a lot, softly steady fast in =

all kind of weather I dont mind rain ore snow.Although I love the hot
summer and the sun on my laces. I feel good with a cold northern wind
blowing uieeeee uieeeeee uiiieeee the Danish Weather.
Refreshing after a long working day where I have walked and walked
danced, hopped, tripped, stopped.Nearly no rest at all.
I like to wriggling, tapping and snorring when IM reading Psyber-L.
I like to tap the rytmn of a good and steady blues song like "There aint
no breakman on this train" this cybertrain, takes some solid shoes to
keep clear that there is a lot of living outside the cyberspace. And  my
oh my a lot of music to dance to. Im a pair of dancing shoes, oh the
rytmn the beat, the tence atmosphere of a party with live music and live
people who in the world of cyberspace can macht that??
 Im a kind of sensitive kind of shoes, can feel it if your sad, can feel =

if your glad,can see if the tears gets into your eyes, cant keep from =

crying with you when your sad. But also stand there with both my soles =

steady on the ground to be there when
You need me. Im not "Howski Snowski" im humble to the fact that I
and You are a special kind of shoes. I might be like every other shoes, I
might be like some shoes, but Im also the only pare of shoes in the
world. My left shoe is my dreams, my intuition my creative space my Jung =

and Freud and Pearls (and manny more)my right is the intellectual and =

philosophical,my Jung and Freud and Pearls(and many more)the right is =

tapping Cyber-L.Walter, Dan and Fritz my left is tapping art poetry music =

Jim the Elder and Carole Pinnock Dolores and Simon.
 Revolution Shoes how are You and how do look??? =


-- =

Bent B=F8gedal Christoffersen
Galgebakken Skr=E6nt 4 - 8 b
2620 Albertslund
http://www.cybernet.dk/users/bbc/

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Date:         Sat, 7 Sep 1996 19:40:04 +0930
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Carole Pinnock <C.Pinnock@FLINDERS.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Chickle Media Native
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Hoon,

Thankyou so much for your insights about Insight Books. I have read and
re-read your comments - they have shed a great deal of light on my own
experience with Chicken Little, and I am planning on reading the series
that you have indicated.. I would just like to ask you a question about the
puer aeternus- is play an important component of this? If so,  Daryl
Sharp's writing would suggest that you shouldn't let it go.
Carole

Dear Jim the Elder

If you have been freshly re-reading chicken little, then you may have some
thoughts on these questions: Is CL struggling with her  own, internal,
personal, psychological Armageddon, of which many of us have first hand
knowledge.  Or is she dealing with an OUTSIDE one - a cataclysmic event
attacking social order?

For example, here in Australia, the Federal Government is making drastic
cutbacks to the independent public broadcaster, the ABC (Australian
Broadcasting Commission). The ABC supports and communicates most of the
intellectual life of this country through radio and television, and even
has a commercial empire selling program 'byproducts'. The possibility of
its corruption or diminishment is thus like an intellectual Armageddon to
many Australians. To us, the ABC is as necessary for democracy as
gun-ownership seems to be in the US.  Did CL thus have some pre-warning  of
what was happening to the ABC?

The third thing that worries me is that CL is female. Being female, myself,
I'm not offended, mind you, but I would, indeed like to know if there is a
natural tendency in that direction because of my chromosomes. Alternatively
the CL tendency  might be dysfunctional gene located in the anima, in which
case men have to watch out too. I think the latter is more likely.

Carole

Dear Bent

Shoes are wonderful, yes I'm with you! I LOVE your idea of left shoe and
right shoes with their different characteristics.There is a shadow side of
shoe also.eg large shoe descends on small budding shoot before it flowers,
but I try not to think of that.

Carole

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:15:04 GMT
Reply-To:     judithb@sbc1.com
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Organization: Business Connects, Inc.
Subject:      Re: Chickle Media Native
Content-Type: text

Dear Carole
<Dear Bent

Shoes are wonderful, yes I'm with you! I LOVE your idea of left shoe and
right shoes with their different characteristics.There is a shadow side of
shoe also.eg large shoe descends on small budding shoot before it flowers,
but I try not to think of that.

Carole>
tiptoe-ing comes to mind:-)
Judith tiptoeing among the messages
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:23:09 GMT
Reply-To:     judithb@sbc1.com
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Organization: Business Connects, Inc.
Subject:      Re: Multiple Recipients, Re: PWP
Content-Type: text

Water and Fritz wrote
<>I saw a picture of Gregory Peck and suddenly I realised that I
had been imagining one of my correspondents looking like him.
Probably looks nothing like that, but it was like seeing his
picture.  I have never managed to post mine to the web, but have
thought about it . . . What do you think?<

Sometimes I thought that I would like to have a clearer idea about the people
of this group. So,  of some I have assembled a virtual file in my mind,
putting together all the personal bits of information which I gathered from
the various messages combined with an imagination of their physical
appearance. The reality (photograph on the WEB) may be a shock. But it is the
same in science. You are publishing papers in Journals and respond to work of
other people. So they become virtual realities in your mind. If you meet them
at a conference, they look different than you expected but you know them by
their messages (papers) and the image of their physical appearance is quickly
adjusted.
Their is a saying: a picture tells you more than a thousand words, or was it
a
million ?

Best wishes, FRITZ>

I wonder, Fritz, if the image if seen "first" creates a fractal of "person"
which then in the process of experiencing "content" which the person
contributes becomes a filter of discernment based on ones sense of
aesthetic...so not having an image first but experiencing "content" then
'creates" the fractal which Walter alludes to when he mentions Gregory
Peck...becomes open ended somehow and sort of a reversed morphing maybe...
Fascinating...thanks to you both
Judith

--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:08:29 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Shoes, Bent and Judith

Hello to all of you and to Bent and Judith,

shoes are of great importance. I don't like to buy new shoes as long as the
old ones hold up. They last a long time with me. For outdoors, I have an old
pair of clogs from Sweden which I bought about twenty years ago, wooden sole
(1 inch), leather for cover. With bare feet I feel comfortable even in winter.
Another pair of slippers - bought in Japan - I had for a long time and then I
laid them to rest on a mountain of the Island of Menorca in the Mediterranean.
I value my shoes even after they have served me well. Slippers are very
uselful, especially in Japan where you have to put them off all the time when
you enter a home. Very nice custom. Does it mean that you are not the real
human if you keep your shoes on ? Or is it just a hygenic measure ? I don't
know. Bare foot on the tatami is a thrill. Actually, shoes keep you from
feeling the environment, the texture of the soil, the floor, the warmth or the
cold. *small budding shoot before it flowers* need not worry if the sole of
your foot has experienced subtle sensations.
*Tiptoeing among the messages* reminds me of Tiny Tim, a character who used to
appear on the Johny Carson Tonight-Show (Something for US-insiders). He plaid
the Ukulele and sang *tiptoe thru the tulips*, a weird song! With enough
sensitivity on our sole we don't have to tiptoe but we can use the additional
sensory excitation as source of feelings and information.

Judith - * if the image if seen "first" creates a fractal of "person*. To me
it seems that contents is prime and picture follows. A gorgeous blonde woman
might arouse my interest but if she talks foolishly my interest dies quickly.
On the other hand, I detect interesting and exciting features on people who
are not considered to be beauties once they capture my intellect and feelings.
Trying to repair an old pair of shoes,
FRITZ

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Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 20:56:08 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      renewed greetings
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter and all:

I've just resubbed after an absence of a month or two, and caught up by
reading the list archives, and omigod a lot has been going on around here!
Perhaps I should start with a short self-intro...

My name is Charles Cameron, I'm a poet and professional writer by trade, 52
years old, British, resident in California, portly but with a full head of
hair, married to an ex-ballerina, Annie, with a son, Emlyn, age 17 months,
never thought I'd see the day when I wrote "portly but with a full head of
hair" to a mailing list, love the fact that lists allow us to build
"neighborhoods of the like-minded" by which I mean more precisely
"mind-and-hearted" because here in this as-yet written medium it is the
qualities of mind and heart that shine... and that's what I love and am
"into" -- the human mind-and-heart.

I have spent the last two years working on the design of some "games" based
on Hermann Hesse's Nobel winning novel, *Magister-Ludi*, which you can find
out about on my web site at:

>>>   http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

and have had the honor and distinct pleasure of working with Walter in
putting together the Dream Event -- which I think of as a sort of joint
project of this list and my own "Magister-L" mailing list, a list which
deals with topics at the intersection of spirituality and games -- in which
we have been exploring the nature of dreams and psyche in cyberspace, and
using my WaterBird game to give form to our explorations.

*

I'm impressed by Walter's preparations for the Psybernet List Web Project,
which surely seems to implement a lot of things learned during the Dream
Event, and though I shall be unable to be a project member, I shall be
watching it with keen interest, and hopefully able to comment from time to
time.

I hope you'll forgive my quoting snippets from a host of Walter's posts
over the last two months and making one response to all...  Walter wrote:

> Using the form of the glass bead game in the DreamEvent and
> making hypertext files of our collaborative efforts on the web, has
> been very inspiring for me.  We are in an email list or group, and
> we produce a Work.

It's neat to see this line of thought extending into the new project.

> I think I am present at the birth of a form, of a method, of groups
> that collaborative produce a hypertext or multimedia "document"
> of their life.

Yes.  The literary folk who are "into" hypertext seem to spend most of
their time trying to invent stories which include "multiple choices" --
problematic, because from a narrative point of view not all the plot lines
are likely to be equally strong, and (my theoretical bias) the story which
would be constituted by the strongest plotline in a multiple plot structure
will tend to be a better story than the multiple itself...

Hypertext *can* map the fact that human life consists of "choice points" of
one sort or another, and can therefore work as an analogy to a sort of
"branching multiplicity of universes" generated by alternative choices, but
I think it's simpler and more elegant to think it can map the links and
connections between disparate thoughts which is so much the stuff of
creativity, and provide us with a medium for "associative thinking",
"associative learning" and what I term "polyphonic writing" -- in which the
thoughts of different people, or the different thoughts of a single person
can be presented "simultaneously" rather than in the sequence of a (tired
and outmoded) logic.

And hypertext is *of the essence* of the web, so whatever hypertext can map
best will, in my opinion, come into dominance as a means of expression: and
that will mean, I think, a switch from "linear" to "lateral-and-linear"
thinking, and a decisive switch away from the Aristotelian "either-or", the
almost entire silence of the body, the frequent silence of doubt, and the
tendency to docgmatize one's thoughts and opinions, towards a more
inclusive, synchronistic, wholistic sense of one's thought as a vivid (ie)
living process, founded in the multiplicity of the "single" self asn well
as the multiplicity of selves-in-communication...

I suspect that this sort of thing would be my own take on "Media Native
Content" -- which was itself a wonderful post, Walter.

> It would be correct to call it in the GBG tradition, however, I want
> to explore this without the use of the word "game" as it introduces
> some difficulties, which of course can be overcome as well.

There are so many varieties of Glass Bead Game being devised at the moment,
some by people who think of themselves as consciously attempting to
reproduce Hesse's Game, some by people who are simply investigating the
nature of hypertext and arriving at very GBG like structures.

People say that the GBG is a metaphor for the web -- it was in fact a
conference on "metaphors for the web" for which we had both written papers
which first introduced me to Walter and vice versa -- but I'm coming to
think it's much more than that, that the metaphor is weaving itself into
reality...  That the GBG is somehow the "emergent structure" of our times,
the quintessence of hypertext...

It will be fascinating from my own perspective (as one of the former group)
to see where this leads in the context of the Project -- and I do
sympathize with Walter's reservations about the word "game"...

Walter wrote Pixy:

> I am happy to have a slow start, as it might be helpful not to
> overlap with the dream group.  If I could have contained myself
> until that ended I would have.  That group of course is making its
> own ending, in its own way, and doing it well.

Yes.  I too have been amazed and inspired by the Dream Event, by the
quality and depth and sheer quantity of posts, and I'm happy to see this
confirmation from your end that you see the closure in such a positive
light.  And we have learned *so much* about the pitfalls of an endeavor of
this kind, been through our share of rough passages and moments of total
overwhelm -- I know I have! -- that I've been crying "surrender" at one
moment and "triumph" the next...  Quite a ride!

*

Turning to issues of GBG design...  Walter, you posted the two ways of
drawing the "Peterson Graph" to this list:

> Another 10 position board.  One where each position links to 3
> others, very interesting . . . . made me think about the nature of
> the WaterBird board with its diversity of links, where position 9
> has far more links than say position 2.  The links remain the same
> even though the map can be drawn in two ways.  I have drawn the
> pictures, and posted them to the web at

> http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/peters1.htm

As you can imagine, I'm excited by these images, and would love to know
more about where they comes from, who "Peterson" is, how the topological
relation between them obtains, whether they are in the public domain and
can be used eg in HipBone Games, and so forth.

I was also interested in your suggestion that the Project would have a very
simple structure of linkages:

> Perhaps no more than 4 links, using such titles as:

> This comes before.
> This comes after.
> This jars.
> This resonates.
> This says much the same thing.
> This compliments.

And of course I'd love to hear more about what Miles is up to with his
"reverse" board design:

> One of the practical things Miles wants to do, is develop a
> software tool for mapping linked "formed texts" to a graphical
> image.  A bit like the WaterBird board in reverse.  Here are the
> texts, here is how they link, here is the board.  It does not
> preclude "empty" texts either, so there is great potential there.

*

Greetings to friends old and new, then, and my best wishes for the new
Project.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/
mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 01:11:15 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      PWP, intimacy

Hi,
the PWP is an open system in the sense that it has no confinement as does
Psyber-L. Although, in Psyber-L, people come in and go out, too, there is the
barrier of subscribing and signing-off. In the planned PWP we are setting up
shop at Hyde Park Corner, or, it's more like a TV talk show where people can
call in by phone to interact with the talkers. In the usual TV set-up you have
the moderator, a few guests, the studio audience and the viewers. In PWP, we
have probably the equivalence Walter=moderator, group members=invited guests,
studio audience=participants of Psyber-L, viewers=whoever visits the www page.
 Statements made by talkers and moderator will reflect this situation.
Greetings, FRITZ

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:00:02 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: renewed greetings
In-Reply-To:  <v01540b02ae5953ad8d9b@[206.250.113.171]>

Charles,

> I've just resubbed after an absence of a month or two,

I did not know that you were gone, and thus I was surprised I did
not hear from you when I wrote the snippets about the Peterson
graph.  I am not surprised you picked up on it, I thought it was
up your alley!

Great too to have your introduction again.  I just learnt that we
are the same age.

> and have had the honor and distinct pleasure of working with Walter in
> putting together the Dream Event -- which I think of as a sort of joint
> project of this list and my own

Exactly how I see it, it is a pity that we do not yet have the
doc available, as we say so much about it.  All in good time.


> I'm impressed by Walter's preparations for the Psybernet List Web Project,
> which surely seems to implement a lot of things learned during the Dream
> Event, and though I shall be unable to be a project member, I shall be
> watching it with keen interest, and hopefully able to comment from time to
> time.

I look forward to that.

> Hypertext *can* map the fact that human life consists of "choice points" of
> one sort or another, and can therefore work as an analogy to a sort of
> "branching multiplicity of universes" generated by alternative choices, but
> I think it's simpler and more elegant to think it can map the links and
> connections between disparate thoughts which is so much the stuff of
> creativity, and provide us with a medium for "associative thinking",
> "associative learning" and what I term "polyphonic writing" -- in which the
> thoughts of different people, or the different thoughts of a single person
> can be presented "simultaneously" rather than in the sequence of a (tired
> and outmoded) logic.

In such docs there really are no plots, other than the ones that
one "finds".  I am curious if our work from the dream group will
interest others, if it is something that can be experienced
usefully in its conserved form.

> Yes.  I too have been amazed and inspired by the Dream Event,

> . . . Quite a ride!

It has indeed . . . and is occupying my mind as I also prepare
for 13 September which is the day the dream event begins.  I
understand you will look on from the side, Charles, knowing some
of the circumstances you are in at present.

The invitation is there still for others to enrol.  More on that
soon.

~~~

> Turning to issues of GBG design...  Walter, you posted the two ways of
> drawing the "Peterson Graph" to this list:
>
> > Another 10 position board.  One where each position links to 3
> > others, very interesting . . . . made me think about the nature of
> > the WaterBird board with its diversity of links, where position 9
> > has far more links than say position 2.  The links remain the same
> > even though the map can be drawn in two ways.  I have drawn the
> > pictures, and posted them to the web at
>
> > http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/peters1.htm
>
> As you can imagine, I'm excited by these images, and would love to know
> more about where they comes from, who "Peterson" is, how the topological
> relation between them obtains, whether they are in the public domain and
> can be used eg in HipBone Games, and so forth.

I hope Miles will come to the party here, as he is the expert on
this.  It occurred to me that a triangle is the result of linking
nodes or texts that each have two links.  The Peterson graph is
the most minimal way of linking nodes with three links each.  I
think the two ways of representing them quite beautiful.

> I was also interested in your suggestion that the Project would have a very
> simple structure of linkages:
>
> > Perhaps no more than 4 links, using such titles as:
>
> > This comes before.
> > This comes after.
> > This jars.
> > This resonates.
> > This says much the same thing.
> > This compliments.

Yes, my thinking is that there is a value in restricting the
links.  Containment, making something unified.  Already on the
web there is a sort of anarchy of links, a cacophony.  If a
series of posts or texts are linked . . . through their
archetypal connections in some way in a tight way then we are
looking at the psyche.

> And of course I'd love to hear more about what Miles is up to with his
> "reverse" board design:

I hope that somehow he will help us to map such dynamics to an
image.  Lets wait and see.


> Greetings to friends old and new, then, and my best wishes for the new
> Project.

Thanks Charles, and welcome back.


Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:31:57 GMT
Reply-To:     judithb@sbc1.com
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Organization: Business Connects, Inc.
Subject:      Re: Shoes, Bent and Judith
Content-Type: text

Fritz you write< To me
it seems that contents is prime and picture follows. A gorgeous blonde woman
might arouse my interest but if she talks foolishly my interest dies quickly.
On the other hand, I detect interesting and exciting features on people who
are not considered to be beauties once they capture my intellect and
feelings.
Trying to repair an old pair of shoes>,
FRITZ>
Well, Fritz, how did you know I was blonde:-)maybe a case for remote viewing
;-)Anyway...Something struck me about physical traits and traits of tone (for
want of a betternearer word). I can marvel and observe great intellect at
work but what is "interesting and exciting" for me is a "streak of
irreverence" so when I sense the mind I am engaged with is oh so very serious
I am less wont to engage.
As an aside there was a period as an actor that I was working regularly
mostly in comedies and one reviewer would rave (those that didn't have long
been forgotten) on and on. We finally met at a party and he didn't know it
was me (my stage name is different mostly so people can pronounce it). And we
spent an evening exchanging ideas and laughing very hard. When he finally
made the connection he said now he knew why he liked my work-I had a huge
self-deprecating streak which I capitalized on on stage. (realizing of course
there are mounds of psychological stuff about what that means which again I
have long forgotten)
For me it is the mindtomind connection afforded here and the opportunity to
exploreplaydiscover (given that I am not psychologically schooled
purposefully BTW), so the very fact that visual stimuli is filtered out, sort
of ala research set up where variables are controlled,  I find out, discover
here on line that which I may not so readily disccerndismiss and this leads
me to the idea of aesthics. which is what I "read" when you say "people who
are not considered to be beauties" a collective aesthics as well as your
sense of aesthetic. I find I have a similar response to various "minds" as
you have suggested with finding that the physical beauty to which you
resonated originally didn't have the "depth" you find aesthetically (my word)
resonant.
Judith happily shoeless soon to be socked
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:24:17 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      great intellect

Hello to all,

Judith you wrote:
>I can marvel and observe great intellect at
work but what is "interesting and exciting" for me is a "streak of
irreverence" so when I sense the mind I am engaged with is oh so very serious
I am less wont to engage.<

I think that a great intellect should incorporate irreverence to make him/her
a great personality, and, finally, it's the personality we are attracted to.
The great intellect by itself is limited to the rational domain, irrationality
(in the sense of a complementary world) needs to be attended to, the same way.
In some of the previous posts, this was expressed at times.

>For me it is the mindtomind connection afforded here and the opportunity to
exploreplaydiscover (given that I am not psychologically schooled
purposefully BTW), so the very fact that visual stimuli is filtered out, sort
of ala research set up where variables are controlled,  I find out, discover
here on line that which I may not so readily disccerndismiss and this leads
me to the idea of aesthics.<

I just reread some of your earlier posts of May. The lack of visual stimulus
appeals to me as being rather beneficial. I received an image of you without a
visual likeness. The latter would probably interfere with the communicative
process (mind-to-mind connection).

Following up with what Charles wrote:
>never thought I'd see the day when I wrote "portly but with a full head of
hair" to a mailing list, love the fact that lists allow us to build
"neighborhoods of the like-minded" by which I mean more precisely
"mind-and-hearted"<

Here, we receive another image. A head full of hair, but *portly*. I consulted
several dictionaries.This is what they say

American Heritage:
1. Comfortably stout; corpulent
2. Archaic. Stately; majestic; imposing. -

Oxford Dictionary
Bulky, corpulent; of stately appearance

Webster
1 chiefly dialect:dignified, stately
2 heavy or rotund of body: corpulent, stout
J.R.Green: "the plump figure and portly waist were those of a genial and
humorous man"

We don't need a photograph to get a pretty good image of Charles.

Regards to all of you,
best wishes FRITZ

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:18:35 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: great intellect
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi..

So Charles looks like Santa Claus.. Judith I  dont know why, maybe its your
name but when I think of you flaming red hair comes to mind.. and maybe a
few freckles.

(Fritz when you think of me, if you ever do, in your mental picture I hope
my legs and armpits are shaved)

Incidently Fritz my mental picture of you consists of taking a victorian
cavalry officer (Troy In Far from the madding crowd actually) and sticking
him in a slightly rumpled tweed suit. Please do not dispell my illusions
since I am quite fond of you in this guise.

Also, I have never found looks to be the first thing that attracted me in a
male. With me it has always been intelligence. But a certain type of
intelligence, fireworks in the mind sort of thing. I have never found men no
matter their IQ who are capable only of wholly linear thought to be in the
least bit appealling.  I prefer the sparks that come from fires to the
steady glow of an electric bulb.

As one who can rather immodestly say,  has been judged by how she looked for
most of her life..the anonimity of cyberspace, the fact that it is your
thoughts on display (perhaps one might also add ego)  rather than your
physical attributes which I find to be one of the mediums greatest benefits.
I dont behave the way you expect me to behave..because of the way I look.
We immediatly may snap judgments.. we sum up a person on their looks  and
attire in mili seconds on meeting them (no arguing here - I've read my
Desmond Morris) .. .we know instinctivively if we are likely to like them,
are attracted to them.. etc etc and go from there.  Which is why I find
cyberspace fascinating. You just cant do that here. The reverse happens
because you are all characters in a novel to me here..I can see you as I
chose to see you, and I can assign physical attributes to you accordingly
based on wether I like you or what you have to say.

Of course Fritz will no doubt now be justified in pointing out that I have
little of any note to contribute other than the benefits of  wax v razor
when it comes to depillatory concerns or debate.

Steve/Wilbs Will scribble back tonight or tommorow promise.

Dolores

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 06:48:06 GMT
Reply-To:     judithb@sbc1.com
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Organization: Business Connects, Inc.
Subject:      Re: great intellect
Content-Type: text

Fritz you commented
<
I think that a great intellect should incorporate irreverence to make him/her
a great personality, and, finally, it's the personality we are attracted to.
The great intellect by itself is limited to the rational domain,
irrationality
(in the sense of a complementary world) needs to be attended to, the same
way.
In some of the previous posts, this was expressed at times.>
I am currently immersed in J Hillman's new book The Soul's Code In Search of
Character and calling and I somehow think personality as a formation, a
magnet if you were, is what "attracts" person to person or mind to mind and
mind to mind...for me it becomes an expression of the mindbodyemotionphysical
and how much of this is expressed here and how much implied...somehow I am
always attracted to the implied...
<>For me it is the mindtomind connection afforded here and the opportunity to
exploreplaydiscover (given that I am not psychologically schooled
purposefully BTW), so the very fact that visual stimuli is filtered out, sort
of ala research set up where variables are controlled,  I find out, discover
here on line that which I may not so readily disccerndismiss and this leads
me to the idea of aesthics.<

I just reread some of your earlier posts of May. The lack of visual stimulus
appeals to me as being rather beneficial. I received an image of you without
a
visual likeness. The latter would probably interfere with the communicative
process (mind-to-mind connection).>
interesting isn't it...tonight after a session on Radical Life Change which I
led but  was joined by extraordinary assistance I think of authenticity and
integrity and how here these elements are enhanced...and the fact that lately
my senses of smell and hearing are receding in order that my visual
(remedial) sense becomes hightened, while here visual is surpressed...hummmmm

judith feeling quite reverent tonight

--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:02:27 GMT
Reply-To:     judithb@sbc1.com
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Organization: Business Connects, Inc.
Subject:      Re: great intellect
Content-Type: text

Ah yes Delores
,Hi..

So Charles looks like Santa Claus.. Judith I  dont know why, maybe its your
name but when I think of you flaming red hair comes to mind.. and maybe a
few freckles..>
I've been putting lemon juice on those freckles for years...and yes the
images, imagination at work that which this space holds- allows for, that
precursive moment when words and one's imagination begins to play and create
images which whether or not are actual images matters not, except in the play
of the mind where elements are conjured up and necessity evokes some hidden
passion which one can play with...and oh to have flaming red hair cascading
over pristine sheets...certainly time for sleep :-)
judith heading for the Henna
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 10:37:11 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      PWP:  Psybernet ~ Web Project . . . beginning.

Psybernet ~ Web Project, PWP

Here in New Zealand 13 September is fast drawing to a close, and
as this is the PWP is beginning, I thought I'd welcome it into
the world.  Tomorrow, probably still the 13th for most of the
world, I will post some specifics, for now let it suffice to say
that the project has begun, and that it is not too late to state
intentions to participate.  The archives from August & September
96 offer some background and there is a web page that is
essential viewing.

http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/project.htm

May we have a good time and learn a lot,



Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:13:41 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Judith, Japanese and German

Hi to all, and Judith

in Judith's last post we received the following strings
>mindbodyemotionphysical<
>mindtomind<
>exploreplaydiscover<
>disccerndismiss<

There are several languages where there are not blanks between words, Japanese
is one of them.
TheJapaneseareapeoplewhocommunicatealotbynonverbalmessagesunsaidwordsandimplic
ations.Awordmayhavemanydifferentmeaningsdependingonthecontextandonthesituation
.Youusedifferentwordsforagivenmessagedependingonthefamilialorsocialstatusofyou
rcounterpart.Westerners,naturally,cannotgraspalltheseintricaciesandareadvisedt
ousethepoliteforms,only.InGermananotherphenomenexistswhichisthecombinationofno
unsintoasnakelikeconstructions.Fourtofivenounscanbeconnectedintoonenewworddesc
ribingawholestory.Alsoattheendofasentenceverformspileup,somethingMarkTwainmuse
dabout,already.

It is possible that the joining of words creates the sence of an intimate
relationship an attempt to overcome discreteness and perhaps a higher quality
of communication. It seems that on one hand the influence of Aristotelian
logics on Western thinking and writing style is complemented by Zen and
Japanese writing, in the East.

Semantically yours, FRITZ

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 04:30:58 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      PWP: Participants

Hi, all in the Psybernet Mailing List, Psybernet ~ Web Project
participants,

We are following the steps as outlined in the description . . .
and this is where we are at:


|    The project will follow these steps.

|    1.  Enrolment.
|    People state by posts to Psyber-L that they want to be involved.
|    We move on to the next step when we have 8 people, or within
|    a week or so, as long as we have at least 3.

We have three!  It would be great to have a few more on board,
there is time!

Our current membership is:

FRITZ:
^^^^^
|    Yes, I am very much interested in the project. I looked at the
|    WWW-site
|    (http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/project.htm)
|    describing some details. My only concern is my absence from
|    my terminal from October 3rd to approximately October 20. If
|    this is OK, I'll join.

We have already discussed that this is OK.

Pixy Ferris:
^^^^ ^^^^^
|    this new project (the PWP) reallly excites me and I would
|    definitely like to express my interest to participate.
|    Unfortunately I'm heading out of town (again!) tonight, so
|    won't be able to become active until September.  But I would
|    definitely like to be counted in if possible, and am really looking
|    forward to it!

Pixy, are you back?

There is also me,

Walter:
^^^^^
I describe my role in the original description under the heading:

Facilitation & The Job of Web Scribe.

I have some specific tasks, and these are part of my
paricipation.  I will bring my own interests and psychological
probing, personal and web wise to the project.

Several others have expressed interest but none have actulally
said they are in, unless I have missed something.

Each of us will have a "formed txt" on the web.  I will begin to
construct these now, however it is up to each of us to say what
needs to be there and not there.  I will only use material from
posts headed PWP:  So to make those introductions more complete
we are already into step 2, at the same time as we continue to
hear from new people  (Step 1).


|    2.  Introduction.
|    Lets hear from each and all.  Background, current situation,
|    personal aspirations in this venture.  Some responding to each
|    other.  Walter will begin to concretise these introductions on to
|    the web.  Comments and suggestions about this essential, as
|    we are  already making a web production.

Here we go then. . .

All this will make much more sense if you go to our web page for
this project.

http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/project.htm


see you soon,



Walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:31:44 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: PWP: Participants
Comments: To: judithb@sbc1.com
In-Reply-To:  <323a265b.281036469@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

PWPer's,<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>Walter, all,


Buddy count me in. What the heck; it not only sounds interesting but I
like all this


*I don't know how the heck it's gonna turn out!* kind of stuff.


I do wish Judith would get her blondness out of the control group...but
to say so is fairly close  to being coercive, yes?


Stephen da HooN</fontfamily>


>We have three!  It would be great to have a few more on board,

>there is time!

>

>Our current membership is:

>

>FRITZ:

>^^^^^

>|    Yes, I am very much interested in the project. I looked at the

>|    WWW-site

>|    (http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/project.htm)

>|    describing some details. My only concern is my absence from

>|    my terminal from October 3rd to approximately October 20. If

>|    this is OK, I'll join.

>

>We have already discussed that this is OK.

>

>Pixy Ferris:

>^^^^ ^^^^^

>|    this new project (the PWP) reallly excites me and I would

>|    definitely like to express my interest to participate.

>|    Unfortunately I'm heading out of town (again!) tonight, so

>|    won't be able to become active until September.  But I would

>|    definitely like to be counted in if possible, and am really
looking

>|    forward to it!

>

>Pixy, are you back?

>

>There is also me,

>

>Walter:

>^^^^^

>I describe my role in the original description under the heading:

>

>Facilitation & The Job of Web Scribe.

>

>I have some specific tasks, and these are part of my

>paricipation.  I will bring my own interests and psychological

>probing, personal and web wise to the project.

>

>Several others have expressed interest but none have actulally

>said they are in, unless I have missed something.

>

>Each of us will have a "formed txt" on the web.  I will begin to

>construct these now, however it is up to each of us to say what

>needs to be there and not there.  I will only use material from

>posts headed PWP:  So to make those introductions more complete

>we are already into step 2, at the same time as we continue to

>hear from new people  (Step 1).

>

>

>|    2.  Introduction.

>|    Lets hear from each and all.  Background, current situation,

>|    personal aspirations in this venture.  Some responding to each

>|    other.  Walter will begin to concretise these introductions on
to

>|    the web.  Comments and suggestions about this essential, as

>|    we are  already making a web production.

>

>Here we go then. . .

>

>All this will make much more sense if you go to our web page for

>this project.

>

>http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/project.htm

>

>

>see you soon,

>

>

>

>Walter

>

>

>

>

>_____________________________________________________

>Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz

>http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

>

>_______________________________________________________________

>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to

>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 13:39:20 GMT
Reply-To:     judithb@sbc1.com
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Organization: Business Connects, Inc.
Subject:      Re: Judith, Japanese and German
Content-Type: text

Fritz you write
<It is possible that the joining of words creates the sence of an intimate
relationship an attempt to overcome discreteness and perhaps a higher quality
of communication.>
I was struck by your contribution about German and Japanese two cultures I
have intense response to...I have been combining words for years attempting
to communicate a sense of relationship in the moment to something I feel in
my body, the sort of non linear sense of understanding where one senses
multiplicity in ideation in the moment, and the frustration I always feel
when I have to string out linearly thoughts and sensings which swirl around a
vortex of thot...interesting to speculate where this came from...histrionic
memory?
Judith happily stingingalong
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:48:46 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         hollyg <hollyg@TIAC.NET>
Subject:      PWP:  Sign Up
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

INTRODUCTION
Hi.  My name is Holly and I am interested in participating in this project.
I checked out the web site ... and am a bit confused as to exactly what
where and when I should do something, but I learn quickly --

As for me, I recently earned my Masters in Education with a concentration in
Technology in Education.  During my coursework, I became very interested in
how people share information on-line.  My observations (for a distance ed.
class in particular) dovetailed with other coursework which focused on  the
role of interaction in social development and the learning process.  Cutting
to the chase, I know that I enjoy corresponding on-line and that I what I
choose to type in email is very different than what I would write in a
letter (more formal) or say in a telephone conversation (more chatty). This
exercise sounds like a good opportunity to participate in this type of
interaction as well as just talk with others on-line.

I am at home (I have a daughter and have just moved into a new home.  The
next few months I plan on taking a breather, doing some reading, and trying
to get our family in one place....)  I should be able to participate
regularly over a set period of time....

Oh, just to avoid confusion:  I usually refer to myself on-line by initials
"HBG" instead of "Holly"

Let me know the next step....

Thanks,
HBG

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 19:18:58 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <COpumpkin@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: PWP: Participants

Hi to all
I think the PWP sounds intriguing and would like to participate in the
project.

I am a grad student in psychology in an individualized study masters program,
having returned to psychology after connecting my modem to millions of others
and seeing the potential for interconnectedness... and was totally delighted
to find this site in the process of checking research on cyber relationships.
 Since I only recently found and subscribed to PSYBER-L, and am not sure what
the next step in the project is, I will patiently await the next step... and
the evolution of... whatever!

Sheryl

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:48:49 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP: Participants
In-Reply-To:  <v03007800ae6070d4e4b8@[199.18.253.211]>

HooN,

I am glad you have taken the plunge . . .

> PWPer's,<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>Walter, all,

[Sorry but I can't seem to het this html to work, never mind.]

> Buddy count me in. What the heck; it not only sounds interesting but I like all this

> *I don't know how the heck it's gonna turn out!* kind of stuff.

> I do wish Judith would get her blondness out of the control
> group...but to say so is fairly close  to being coercive, yes?


> Stephen da HooN</fontfamily>


These are the  lines I'll put in your HooN txt on the web site.
Of course you can instruct me here to shape and amend.

Already we can listen for the emerging presence of our themes and
your sense of adventure and love of mystery is emerging.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:48:53 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP:  Sign Up
In-Reply-To:  <199609141448.KAA21012@zork.tiac.net>

Holly,

Welcome to this mysterious project . . . and thanks for your
introduction.

> INTRODUCTION
> Hi.  My name is Holly and I am interested in participating in this project.
> I checked out the web site ... and am a bit confused as to exactly what
> where and when I should do something, but I learn quickly --

The current stage "Enrolment  & Introduction" is to simply be
here in our "fishbowl" group, the PWP  members in the larger
Psyber-L.  We are gathering our group, and introducing ourselves
responding to each other as we go, as you have begun to do.  In
step 3. We begin to notice our themes and commonality, our basis
for collaboration.

> As for me, I recently earned my Masters in Education with a concentration in
> Technology in Education.  During my coursework, I became very interested in
> how people share information on-line.

That does really fit with what we are doing here, all of my
learning has been through just messing around here on line, and I
wonder how that fits with what is already being taought in this
area?

> This
> exercise sounds like a good opportunity to participate in this type of
> interaction as well as just talk with others on-line.

I am finding it a huge difference, even as I write, that this is
now in the PWP not only an email medium, but that we are in the
production of something.  The notion of production, and
publishing, conserving creating is present that the (seemingly)
disposable email does not have.  I say seemingly, as the list is
archived and public, and in fact the records go back to April
1993.

> I am at home (I have a daughter and have just moved into a new home.  The
> next few months I plan on taking a breather, doing some reading, and trying
> to get our family in one place....)  I should be able to participate
> regularly over a set period of time....

Sounds good.  My partner Kate has a daughter now 16, my own son
Josh is probably reading this in London.  He is a reader of the
list, and occasional participant.

> Oh, just to avoid confusion:  I usually refer to myself on-line by initials
> "HBG" instead of "Holly"

In this project I will transpose stuff to the web page, and give
you a "formed text" there called HBG.  And place your
introduction there.  You will see that on my Walter text I have
included some links, to stuff I have written and to another
introduction.  If there is material like this for you or others
let me know and I will add the references.

In some ways we could work with a doc on line that we all
transform as we go, but I on this occasion I am in the role of .
. . web scribe . . . a word I made up, that I think will help
define the role for a collaborative group project such as this.


HBG, good to have you here,



Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:48:56 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP: Participants
In-Reply-To:  <960914191857_308508912@emout17.mail.aol.com>

Sheryl,

Welcome That makes 6 in the PWP . . .


FRITZ,
Pixy
HooN
HBG
Sheryl
Walter

Room for 2 more.  I have had one private request, and have asked
the person to quickly respond in the group, as I do not want to
go beyond our planned 8.

I know that we have some very interested people in Psyber-L who
will no doubt be active on the side.

> I think the PWP sounds intriguing and would like to participate in the
> project.

I am pleased you are here.

> I am a grad student in psychology in an individualized study masters program,
> having returned to psychology after connecting my modem to millions of others
> and seeing the potential for interconnectedness... and was totally delighted
> to find this site in the process of checking research on cyber relationships.

I like to think of this as research in its own right,  the whole
Psybernet project I hope goes beyond the notion of participant
observation, in that we are . . . right now in the process of
creating the actual nature of the project,  as HooN said, what he
likes about this is that we don't yet know what we are doing.
That is not to say that we as individuals don't know.  It is just
that as we enter into a collaboration eith others we will go
deeper to connect, to find the common stream a common source we
may all need to go deeper, without giving up our uniqueness.

>  Since I only recently found and subscribed to PSYBER-L, and am not sure what
> the next step in the project is, I will patiently await the next step... and
> the evolution of... whatever!

I think it would be to keep introducing yourself, responding to
others and allowing your interests here to become known.

Have a look how your "formed txt" looks on the web and let me
know of links you want there -- let me know all this in the
public list here.  You can keep modifying it by posting up just
what you want here.

~~~

As I say this I need to let it be known that the web will be
somewhat behind the list, at times.  I am on holiday for a week,
but already there have been some intrusions . . . the thing is we
can go at a slow pace . . . the email will stay here for us to
work with.  Also, from my experience there is a tide in email
lists . . . at the flood it is fine to go with that, we can catch
up in the ebb.

I have already stated somewhere that it is best to read just the
last few emails and work with those if you get behind.


All the best,



Walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:49:18 GMT
Reply-To:     judithb@sbc1.com
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Organization: Business Connects, Inc.
Subject:      Re: PWP: Participants
Comments: To: hoon@apk.net
Content-Type: text

Yes, Stephen
<I do wish Judith would get her blondness out of the control group...but
to say so is fairly close  to being coercive, yes?>
you know how bad I am at instructions and following directions:-) and on a
more frivolous note I have to stay focused on my "body unleashed" papermaking
project...I know I'd get totally entranced with the process and the next
thing I'd know the superordinate would have shifted here to on=line which
would not serve me...
judith making her list and checking it twice
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:25:51 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         hollyg <hollyg@TIAC.NET>
Subject:      PWP:  What's being taught
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_842808249==_"

--=====================_842808249==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I had to chuckle when I read your term "what's being taught"!

There is very little being "taught" about interaction/net/and potential of
creation of content, although quite a bit is being discussed (whispered?) in
the educational/learning psychology circles.

I recently sneaked into an "Internet and Society" conference with other
classmates and we agreed that the business professionals (the majority of
attendees)  were more interested in talking about the toys of the
information age (what, how much, how big, how fast) and not very concerned
with "society" .

Of course, anecdotal articles about the net are very popular reading now,
however, I find  the phenomenon is so new that we still find ourselves bound
by old words and concepts to describe new processes.

I have included, as an attached document, the introduction to a paper
written for a seminar on distance learning. (title:  "Technology,
Interaction, and Educational Opportunity:When the Arrows Go Both Ways")  If
anyone is interested in the bibliography or how I approached examining the
topic, let me know.  I am new to sharing papers on-line, but again, am
willing to learn.



--=====================_842808249==_
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--=====================_842808249==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


--=====================_842808249==_--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:34:44 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <COpumpkin@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: PWP: Participants

Hi All,
In continuing to introduce myself, as Walter indicated, I find myself to be
probably one of the best examples of a human project in progress/process, and
therefore entirely appropriate to this project?  Or perhaps not?

I am beginning my second year of graduate school, and in the last week I have
been asked what will I do when I graduate with all this knowledge... the
answer is I don't know.  I have been asked what my research project will
be... the answer is I don't know.  In my personal life I am separated,
beginning the process of an amicable divorce, venturing out from what I
thought were certainties to an unknown future.   At least when I was asked by
a confirmed computer phobe what I thought about the internet, I could answer
that I see it as a metaphor for the collective conscious/unconscious, and I
have held that belief for a couple of years... although I have found few
others who I thought understood what I was saying.  HBG, when you reflect
that:

> There is very little being "taught" about interaction/net/and potential of
> creation of content, although quite a bit is being discussed (whispered?)
in
> the educational/learning psychology circles.

Your reference to whispers is exactly what I have found... as if a veil is
dropped over the other's eyes, leaving me to wonder, what is behind that
veil, and why has it dropped?

So when I found the psyber net home page, mention of synchronicities,
archetypes, dreams, communications, myths, etc., my immediate reaction was
YES!  And there is no doubt in my mind that my stumbling into this venture is
chock full of synchronicities.

As the project moves forward and the many move toward the one, I am looking
forward to the same happening for me and looking forward to discover and
explore this new adventure and mystery.

Sheryl

HBG... can I ask why you use this instead of Holly?  I like the name Holly...
just wondering!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:22:55 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         hollyg <hollyg@TIAC.NET>
Subject:      PWP: Participants
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>HBG... can I ask why you use this instead of Holly?  I like the name Holly...
>just wondering!
>

Thanks.  I like the name as well and generally go by that name
except....when I write or hand in academic work.  If it has a cover page, I
usually use "HBG...".  Perhaps the HBG is easier to type (close to together
on the keyboard) ... perhaps because my father used to call me "H.B." when I
was a child (he passed away two years ago) ... who knows?

One thing I am convinced of...that I am far less tentative when I write as
HBG than when I write as Holly.  Initials as avatar....!

Thanks for asking...

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:12:47 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP:  What's being taught
In-Reply-To:  <199609151525.LAA16593@zork.tiac.net>

Calling hollyg's avatar:  HBG,

> I recently sneaked into an "Internet and Society" conference with other
> classmates and we agreed that the business professionals (the majority of
> attendees)  were more interested in talking about the toys of the
> information age (what, how much, how big, how fast) and not very concerned
> with "society" .

I have a sense they know little about it in that sphere.  Simple
email lists create a group life that will change the way we
conduct our business, yet it is in the informal areas that this
is being developed.  Just as games seem to lead some of the
software development.

> Of course, anecdotal articles about the net are very popular reading now,
> however, I find  the phenomenon is so new that we still find ourselves bound
> by old words and concepts to describe new processes.

The media like to relate everything to sex, drugs, and crime so
the perpetual questions are about porn and addiction ( Internet
as drug), the Internet as collective un/conscious is a little
more difficult to describe . . . we are on to it though.

> I have included, as an attached document, the introduction to a paper
> written for a seminar on distance learning. (title:  "Technology,
> Interaction, and Educational Opportunity:When the Arrows Go Both Ways")  If
> anyone is interested in the bibliography or how I approached examining the
> topic, let me know.  I am new to sharing papers on-line, but again, am
> willing to learn.

I had no trouble decoding it with Stuffit for windows, and added
a little html, an it is now linked to the HBG txt on the PWP web
site.  Looks good there I think.  I am trying out the idea of
keeping the PWP on one file.  That way it can be downloaded and
explored locally more easily.  There will be links to external
files, such as this which will require going on line.  I know
this is all a bit technical, but that is one of the things I
think we do need to learn.

ASIDE  I am here in our holliday house and the power is off.  I
am on battery life of the laptop, and working with kerosine
light.  The phone still works so it is a race against battery
life to send this up.

I am curious if others have Netscape or other browser open so
that when they read email here, it is just a click to the PWP
file?  That is how I work all the time, and hence it is easy to
copy and paste from the web.  As I will do now:

I think you identify [your paper's introduction ] many of the
areas we are working with here and now.

> Interaction as socialization within a learning environment is
> the underlying theme of this reflection..

I am interested in this idea of "learning environment"  this is
one wouldn't you say?  I quite like the way we are in a totally
open system, with people coming and going, and by the use of such
things as "warm-up"  and agreement among participants we create a
sense of unity, enclosure . . . on this occasion we use the
metaphor of a fishbowl, and the actual name of a project PWP, and
so on to define our focus, our boundary.  Far too much is done by
software . . . the toys . . . in my opinion.

Yet it would be hard to link this in with a rl group.  In a group
of real people there are many who are computer phobic, some who
can't type, others who would never learn which is the way to
insert a disk . . . I taught someone how to use a word processor
once, but they got nowhere in the week I was gone, as the disk
would not fit (upside down).

Do we have to force our technology onto them?  I find it a real
pain that some of my best friends and colleagues are not getting
this look into the collective unconscious, into the psyche.

I am thinking of running a rl dream group, and keeping records of
dreams on the web etc,  I wonder how that would go as an
environment?

For all this being a totally on line environment, the few people
who I do have rl connections with, such as josh and Dan and who
are reading this . . . perhaps . . makes a lot of difference.
Phone calls with Charles as we co-lead the DreamEvent have also
been of great use.  I think the greatest potential is when the rl
and the online worlds are more integrated.

[great the lights went on! as did Phoebe Snow . . . just in time!
My battery is lousy!]



enough for now . . .



Walter
(my avatar is also called walter)


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:02:04 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was
              retained.
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was
              retained.
From:         MS JANELL F ADAIR <TEPS48A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject:      PWP Participation
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

-- [ From: Janell F. Adair * EMC.Ver #2.5.1 ] --

Hi to all:

  I sent the message below to Walter not realizing that it was going
private
and not to the list. I asked to be considered for participation in the
PWP
project.

  I only have a minute this morning and I hope this goes to the list so
that
I can join the group as well.
   Thanks.

 Janell

P.S. This makes the fourth try that I've tried to send it before I
realized
I was sending it to the wrong address.

Return-Path: wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
From: wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
To: "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@philly.infi.net>
Subject: Re: ~~ Psybernet Occasional Email ~~ 14 Sept. 96
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:47:30 GMT
References: <199609141446.KAA19399@mh101.infi.net>

Janell,

I hope you come on board.  I am not sure if it was obvious to you that
your
email was to me in private, and not to the group.  It would be great to
have
you on the PWP, as it is very Morenean in its ways.  Do let us know in
the
group that you are in!  We have two places left . . .

>  Your recent e-mail tweaked my interest in the PWP project. I've been
a very
> silent member of the list for some time now, but in reading your note
I see
> that you are a Psychodramatist,  and since that's what I am,  living
in New
> Jersey and practicing in Pennsylvania, I thought that I would write
and find
> out more about this project.

Could you say more about what you do?  I'd love to hear, and I will
elaborate as well . . . preferably in the list, as it is great how that
can
bring others in and enhance our learning.


> Psychodrama is not my first career, computer
> programming and system analysis was, that is for 28 years until 1991
when I
> became a survivor of corporate downsizing. I thorougly enjoy my new
career
> and don't regret the change at all.

You seem to have the credentials we need.


>  I intend to visit the web page sites that you mention in your note,
but I'd
> like to be considered, as a very tentative member of the PWP project.
I say
> tentative because my anxiety level is up since I'm not quite sure what
I can
> contribute, but I'm willing to give it a try.

Go for it.  Simply responding to others with chit chat is what this
enrolment and introduction phase is about, our deeper interests will
emerge.

> Please be a little patient.

I promise, if you will forgive me in urging you into the project at this
stage.  Once in you can take your time!

Warm wishes,

Walter.



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:03:21 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         hollyg <hollyg@TIAC.NET>
Subject:      PWP: Turning on lights...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, I found myself responding immediately to your thoughts....

>
>I am interested in this idea of "learning environment"  this is
>one wouldn't you say?  I quite like the way we are in a totally
>open system, with people coming and going, and by the use of such
>things as "warm-up"  and agreement among participants we create a
>sense of unity, enclosure . . .

Exactly!  During my required review of formal "distance education" I became
far more intrigued by the "rl" (real life?) education happening in
newsgroups and listservs.  I started with a discussion group about
homeschooling, and later branched into listening to medical support groups.
What I find most interesting:

        1.  The way in which relevant information is shared online.  The
most successful transmission of information, I find, is "anecdotal."  I got
a lot of flack for this in class (what is anecdotal, can it be trusted, is
this really learning, etc...) but I stick to my guns.

        2.  I agree with you about this forum being a "learning
environment."  Indeed, I think "rl" groups allows for a more thoughtful
practice of anecdote exchange  -- the basis true "learning."

        3.   I received some flack for "why are you doing this research for
this class -  we're studying online courses offered by Univ. of XXX..."

Well, all I know is that some newsgroups (medical support groups in
particular) are really the single best collection point of information from
geographically diverse (and motivated populations.)  Participants shared
experiences, treatments, referrals, --- typing out longer drug names and
procedures.

On one side, the poster gets the cathartic benefit of sharing and having the
experience validated as real.  (I took a course with Carol Gilligan in which
a student suggested that Freud's talking cure should really be called the
"listening cure" for the benefit was not merely in the saying, but was in
the being heard...."  On the other, the reader gets the benefit of
information, belonging, and listening. I believe that this is, in the larger
(largest) sense the transaction we call EDUCATION.


        4.  Question of voice.  I never got around to writing about this in
class, but I think it is worth examing ... anecdotal exchange as the
"unmasked voice" of populations that have nowhere else to go -- not merely
because of >what< they had to say but >how< they say it.  It is easy to see
this as a gender issue, but I like to think of it as more than that ... a
society issue.  How does "how we have to say things" affect "what" we say?

How about this: that the relative freedom of cyberspace allows individuals
to offer up personal experience and truth to the collective audience.  No
academic rules.  No publishers.  No grammer.  The increased rate of
interation of ideas/individuals takes places at an accelerated rate...growth
of consciousness...etc.etc.  I rattle on.

Sorry.  Please don't feel you have to post all this stuff.  Just downloading
stuff from my head!.....


Oh...BTW....I am very interested in the dream element of this group.  I have
always been a vivid dreamer and, in childhood, a sleepwalker! So I offer up
this story to the group:  One night,  I was about six or seven, I walked
downstairs.  When my father found me, I was methodically going from room to
room.  "What are you doing?  he asked and I responded "Turning all the
lights on in the house."
He thought I was being a prankster, but my mother, who also slept walked as
a child, understood.  She led me back upstairs and put me back to bed.  I
had no memory in the morning.

I have told that story so many times, but it was not until last year that I
heard what I was saying.  Yes, I always have been the person in our family
trying to turn on all the lights in the house, talk about what is not
allowed to be discussed.

Oh well...a story

HBG
(really a person....female, thirties, tired, mother, inlaws coming to visit
tomorrow, argh.....)

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:47:22 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was
              retained.
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was
              retained.
From:         MS JANELL F ADAIR <TEPS48A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject:      PWP Participation
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

-- [ From: Janell F. Adair * EMC.Ver #2.5.1 ] --

Hi to all:

  I sent the message below to Walter not realizing that it was going
private
and not to the list. I asked to be considered for participation in the
PWP
project.

  I only have a minute this morning and I hope this goes to the list so
that
I can join the group as well.
   Thanks.

 Janell

P.S. This makes the fifth try that I've tried to send it before I
realized
I was sending it to the wrong address, and from my wrong e-mail account.


Return-Path: wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
From: wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
To: "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@philly.infi.net>
Subject: Re: ~~ Psybernet Occasional Email ~~ 14 Sept. 96
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:47:30 GMT
References: <199609141446.KAA19399@mh101.infi.net>

Janell,

I hope you come on board.  I am not sure if it was obvious to you that
your
email was to me in private, and not to the group.  It would be great to
have
you on the PWP, as it is very Morenean in its ways.  Do let us know in
the
group that you are in!  We have two places left . . .

>  Your recent e-mail tweaked my interest in the PWP project. I've been
a very
> silent member of the list for some time now, but in reading your note
I see
> that you are a Psychodramatist,  and since that's what I am,  living
in New
> Jersey and practicing in Pennsylvania, I thought that I would write
and find
> out more about this project.

Could you say more about what you do?  I'd love to hear, and I will
elaborate as well . . . preferably in the list, as it is great how that
can
bring others in and enhance our learning.


> Psychodrama is not my first career, computer
> programming and system analysis was, that is for 28 years until 1991
when I
> became a survivor of corporate downsizing. I thorougly enjoy my new
career
> and don't regret the change at all.

You seem to have the credentials we need.


>  I intend to visit the web page sites that you mention in your note,
but I'd
> like to be considered, as a very tentative member of the PWP project.
I say
> tentative because my anxiety level is up since I'm not quite sure what
I can
> contribute, but I'm willing to give it a try.

Go for it.  Simply responding to others with chit chat is what this
enrolment and introduction phase is about, our deeper interests will
emerge.

> Please be a little patient.

I promise, if you will forgive me in urging you into the project at this
stage.  Once in you can take your time!

Warm wishes,

Walter.



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:57:27 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <COpumpkin@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: PWP: Turning on lights...

Hello from Denver all... and welcome Janell...

Ah, HGB, you have hit on one of my passions when you say:

>       4.  Question of voice.  I never got around to writing about this in
> class, but I think it is worth examing ... anecdotal exchange as the
> "unmasked voice" of populations that have nowhere else to go -- not merely
> because of >what< they had to say but >how< they say it.  It is easy to see
> this as a gender issue, but I like to think of it as more than that ... a
> society issue.  How does "how we have to say things" affect "what" we say?

I agree that it is a social issue, but as a gender issue it has also been
poorly explored.  Yet in rl particularly gender contributes to a kind of
communication gap... judging the value in how something is communicated has a
negative impact on the message itself, invalidating it and inhibiting the
exchange of learning and understanding. Cyber communication has potential to
assist in bridging this gap, however it does seem to me to exist (sometimes
glaringly) in this collective consicous/unconscious as well.

Besides beginning work on my research project, I am doing a class in the "new
psychology of men" and find truth in it's presentation of gender role strain,
particularly in the light of our current culture.  A little synchronicity
there, huh?

Re: all the technical aspects, Stuffit, etc... I am waiting for rl
assistance, but will learn (sometimes kicking and screaming) eventually!

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:14:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was
              retained.
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was
              retained.
From:         MS JANELL F ADAIR <TEPS48A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject:      PWP
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

-- [ From: Janell F. Adair * EMC.Ver #2.5.1 ] --

Hi to all:

  I believe I may be losing messages through this e-mail carrier
(Prodigy), since I think the last message went through all right, but I
still haven't heard anything back from the list.  Maybe it's me. I did
try, several times, to communicate with the list through another server,
and the list didn't recognize me. Oh well, the problems of technology.

 I'll wait until I get some acknowledgment that I'm communicating in the
right place before I say anything about myself.

 Thanks.
             Janell

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:27:37 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         hollyg <hollyg@TIAC.NET>
Subject:      Re: PWP
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Janel

You may need to send a command to the listserv address asking it to send
repro of you mail to yourself.

What I did was to the address LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

I sent the command

SET PSYBER-L REP

in the body of the message.  That may work.


>-- [ From: Janell F. Adair * EMC.Ver #2.5.1 ] --
>
>Hi to all:
>
>  I believe I may be losing messages through this e-mail carrier
>(Prodigy), since I think the last message went through all right, but I
>still haven't heard anything back from the list.  Maybe it's me. I did
>try, several times, to communicate with the list through another server,
>and the list didn't recognize me. Oh well, the problems of technology.
>
> I'll wait until I get some acknowledgment that I'm communicating in the
>right place before I say anything about myself.
>
> Thanks.
>             Janell
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:47:17 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      PWP:education, relal life

Hello to all of you, it took me some time to figure out how the whole set-up
is supposed to operate. I guess, I got it now.

HBG wrote:
>On one side, the poster gets the cathartic benefit of sharing and having the
experience validated as real.  (I took a course with Carol Gilligan in which
a student suggested that Freud's talking cure should really be called the
"listening cure" for the benefit was not merely in the saying, but was in
the being heard...."  On the other, the reader gets the benefit of
information, belonging, and listening. I believe that this is, in the larger
(largest) sense the transaction we call EDUCATION.<
This to me is a too narrow definition of education. As far as I understand
Freud's talking cure, it is based on the idea that the person's attempt to
articulate his/her problems creates an awareness of these problems in the
concious domain which triggers processes of remedy and healing. The listener
interact mainly by non-verbal communications. The important fact seems to me
that processes within the person itself are stimulated. The same is the aim of
education. Information, belonging and listening are just one side of the coin
(named education). The other side consists of the arts of information
processing, analysis and synthesis, and judgement.
Information in our society ( and on the internet) is abundant and spread out
like plants on fallow land, useful plants and weeds, intertwined. In addition,
the needs for information vary from one person to another. Education enables
us to find and select what satisfies our needs.

Further on:
>How about this: that the relative freedom of cyberspace allows individuals
to offer up personal experience and truth to the collective audience.  No
academic rules.  No publishers.  No grammer.  The increased rate of
interation of ideas/individuals takes places at an accelerated rate...growth
of consciousness...etc.etc.  I rattle on.<
What represents the *relativity of the freedom of cyberspace*? Certainly not
*No academic rules.  No publishers.  No grammer*. In fact we adhere to rules
in submitting posts, Walter is the publisher of the Web-page, and without the
use of grammar the contents of the messages would get lost. From my point of
view, the freedom of cyberspace is the interconnectness of people who live in
different parts of our globe and who are immersed in different cultures.
Education, in this respect, should also foster transcultural exchanges without
trying to impose one set of social values.

Walter remarked:
>For all this being a totally on line environment, the few people
who I do have rl connections with, such as josh and Dan and who
are reading this . . . perhaps . . makes a lot of difference.
Phone calls with Charles as we co-lead the DreamEvent have also
been of great use.  I think the greatest potential is when the rl
and the online worlds are more integrated.<
This is an important point. The cyberspace remains a dream world with virtual
people. Many years ago, there was a movie called "Children of the Olymp". Two
worlds existed, the real world and the world in the mirror. Both worlds knew
about each other. Only after the mirror was broken the heroes were saved. This
was the contents in a nutshell (as far as I remember). Anyway, the situation
is similar with cyberspace. It is a mirror world with no bridge to the real
word. Some provocative thoughts!

Regrds,
FRITZ , not my avatar

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:04:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was
              retained.
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was
              retained.
From:         MS JANELL F ADAIR <TEPS48A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject:      Re: PWP
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

-- [ From: Janell F. Adair * EMC.Ver #2.5.1 ] --

Hollyg:

  Thanks for the info, at least I know I'm getting out there.

I've sent the command you recommended.

  Janell

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:06:27 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sieur de Cyberie <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Re-enchanting your virtual soul
Subject:      PWP Participation
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter and company,

        I request to be included in the group PWP if that is possible at
this late date.  My graduate studies has focused on computer-mediated
communication and learning theory.  I have also been involved with
several discussion groups on-line as well as using the Internet as an
extension for the classroom.  I hope that we will enjoy the process and
learn from this experience to be shared together.  As an informational
note, I am using Netscape 2.02 for both email and web-surfing.

Robert de Cyberie

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:08:16 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      == Psybernet Mailing List ==

== Psybernet Mailing List ==

Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become
conscious of the effects of email groups and lists on
group life and the psyche.  The list is a starting point
for depth psychological work on the net, exploring and
defining its directions.

Topics include:
The art of leadership in communication networks.
Creating communication environments.  Gender issues.
Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths,
personal identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious.
Special focus on how these psychological phenomena
relate to cyberspace.

Through our discussion here we learn directly from our
experience of the medium.  We voice that learning.
Forming relationships of a collegial nature around our
psychological net interests is an important part of the
work.

The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which
includes more specific psychological explorations and
facilitated email groups.  The methods here are those of
experimentation and experiential research.  The list is
a place for collaboration in the development of ethical
depth work of a psychological nature on the Internet.
Announcements about various projects will be made in
this list.

The Psybernet web pages can be found at:

http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman.  Discussion of
how the list is facilitated is integral to its purpose.
Psyber-L is archived and these are available to
members with an index psyber-l command to the
listserv.

To subscribe to PSYBER-L, send the a command to:

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

in the BODY of e-mail:

SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname

For example:  SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith

Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive
confirmation request, then an acknowledgment,
followed by a welcome message.

To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to:

LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

In the body of the email write:

SIGNOFF  PSYBER-L

Owner:  Walter Logeman
<wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz >

Last updated   18 September, 1996




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:08:12 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      PWP: Welcome  Janell, Robert.  Directions.

All,

Welcome to Janell, and to Robert, with the 6 we had that makes 8,
which means we are complete.

FRITZ,
HBG
HooN
Janell
Pixy
Robert
Sheryl
Walter

How we look in alphabetical order.

I think it is important we stick with our number, too many would
make this too complex, and too much work..  I like to follow the
plans as much as possible, this gives us a sense of solidity, and
makes a canvas for our creativity.  However, we may find the plan
for this group, the original invitation is just not workable, in
which case we do what we need to do, as those in the DreamEvent
have learnt.

We are in fact sticking to our plan with ease.  Step 1.
Enrolment is complete, and we are into Step 2.  Introductions.
We are beginning to look at step 3.  Themes, topics, links.  I
guess step 2 will be complete when we have a formes test fo each
of us that we are happy with (though we can always amend.)

I will post a summary at some pint of what I see are the main
"themes topics and links"  that I see emerging.  I would invite
others to begin to name these things as you see them.  We each
have our own "take" on the group of course, and it would be good
to hear them.

~~~

As I see it there are three main levels on which we operate, the
personal and particular, the group level, and the universal
(archetypal, or collective).  We are unique as individuals, we
are a unique group, and we are speaking of things that have been
human concerns for aeons, where there have been currents of
thought crossing and meeting many times before, in this sense we
are mere carriers of the ideas, used by them.

~~~

The group has no set agenda topics or tasks apart from the broad
guideline of working within the focus for Psyber-L, I'll post the
latest here for ease, though slightly older version to be updated
soon, is  on the web at

http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/p_conf.html


All the best,


Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:08:22 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP: Turning on lights...
In-Reply-To:  <199609161403.KAA16895@zork.tiac.net>

HBG,

> Sorry.  Please don't feel you have to post all this stuff.  Just downloading
> stuff from my head!.....

Great stuff too, no I won't post it all.  What I hope is that we
just keep downloading from our hear like this, and that someone
then says:

Hey:  this must go on the web!   This fit here!

Also that someone will simply rewrite chunks of someone elses
material . . . to make it sound right for them, that in the end
we will post up "topics"  where it becomes difficult to say who
wrote them, but where we are all pleased with the expression of
them.  Collaboration.

~~~

I will respond soon to the content of your post, but just wanted
to say this bit.



Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:16:52 +0100
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Subject:      Re : Turning on Lights
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Hi folks,

Good to see your PWP project on the go Walter; I havent time
really to join in myself but I've enjoyed the messages anyway -
particularly this one from Holly about turning on lights;

Hope no-one minds my replying to this when I'm not in the PWP -
I enjoyed it so much I couldnt resist it;

Best Regards to all

Steve 'has that guy swallowed a dictionary or what' Murray

grkinfo2@udcf.gla.ac.uk

Here's my reply on the turning on lights post:

-----

 Holly,

 Much enjoyed your post on turning on lights;
 I normally just lurk these days but I enjoyed your post so much I found
 my hands itching to reply to it <G>


>  Exactly!  During my required review of formal "distance education" I became
> far more intrigued by the "rl" (real life?) education happening in
> newsgroups and listservs.


You too, huh? It freaked me out at first when I found just how much
fascinating stuff there was on Usenet and on mailing lists like this;
I've probably learned more from these than all my 'academic' studies
put together; probably I think because in these forums, people's own
real-life experience presses buttons with my own ideas and thoughts and
opinions and the insights I get are my own;
- whereas in the academic world, the bits of information
only fit into a very narrow area of my knowledge & are related to someone
elses map of the world be it mathematics, computing science or whatever.
Maybe I should, but I just dont get that excited when I realise I've found
a superb correlation to so n so's theorem or a hyperefficient encryption
algorithm. Whereas when someone delights and intrigues me with their own
inner thoughts in a mail message, it has the whole me excited and itching
to respond to the stimulus.

>I started with a discussion group about
> homeschooling, and later branched into listening to medical support groups.
> What I find most interesting:
>
>         1.  The way in which relevant information is shared online.  The
> most successful transmission of information, I find, is "anecdotal."  I got
> a lot of flack for this in class (what is anecdotal, can it be trusted, is
> this really learning, etc...) but I stick to my guns.

Music to my ears! <SMILE>. I find that too - that telling people about
our own life-experience and the surrounding reasons why we ourselves
believe something - in the form of an anecdote-  is indeed the best way
of transmitting information to people & communicating. I think actually
that when we relate a charming or interesting story that the images, the
humor,& the correlations with the receiver's own experience all play a big
part in the success of the communication.

I heard a couple of years ago [via a neat anecdote <GRIN>] that when we
lecture to a group, only about 7% of the impression we create is what we
actually say; image, tone, rapport, and other non-verbal components
make up the other 93%.

I think with written communication too, be it either books or the internet,
telling intriguing stories with insights woven into them also has a more
potent effect than academic treatises.

Two of my favourite books are James Redfield's 'The Celestine Prophecy'
and C.S. Lewis's 'The Screwtape Letters'. Both of them contain a lot of
heavy information and insights, but they are packaged in charming stories
which can intrigue and delight the reader enough to communicate the information
in a fun, easily graspable way where no other form of communication-
and certainly not 'academospeak' IMO - might succeed.

My own thoughts on anecdotal info:

1. There seems to have been a folklore that people shouldnt accept
even staggeringly obviously valid anecdotal
evidence in science or academia... even if it's their own! Thankfully this
finally seems to be giving way to common sense. With alternative health,
with my own interest in hypnosis & healing, with the long-discredited
free-energy technology now available and with even orthodox science admitting
such sacred cows as parapsychology, UFOs and life after death to the list of
'acceptable' study areas there finally seems to be a shift in thinking to
the [IMO long overdue] idea that people's own experiences are not just
worth investigating, but seem to have done rather better in many areas than the
scientific method itself. [Peace and Research Money Upon it] :-)
study areas


>         2.  I agree with you about this forum being a "learning
> environment."  Indeed, I think "rl" groups allows for a more thoughtful
> practice of anecdote exchange  -- the basis true "learning."

Yes indeed... people feel comfortable about admitting what they themselves
think, rather than whether their opinion fits in with what so-n-so said
in such and such study. And it's infectious... when one person dares to
come out and say some common-sense stuff like you have here, other people
feel more empowered to own their own thoughts and take back their own
power to think for themselves from the scientific-orthodoxy wagon too.
My head nodded 95% of your post, & I thought Wow! I would have liked to say
all that myself- but I didnt because I wasnt sure if it would be well
received & the thoughts werent nearly as clear in my mind as they are
after reading your post.

Now, I feel validated and justified in thinking this and know that at
least one other person will enjoy reading it [I hope! <GRIN>] I feel much
happier about sounding forth on this. And that facilitation, catalysis,
encouragement, uplifting of people is what cyberspace does really well IMO.

> 3.   I received some flack for "why are you doing this research for
> this class -  we're studying online courses offered by Univ. of XXX..."

Got hassled for it did you? <SMILE> Maybe whoever gave you the flack is
scared of what you'll conclude... maybe that lists where people can be
wholly themselves and talk from the heart give a lot more communication
and advancement of human knowledge than academic courses where people
have to give the 'expected' answers to pass the exams.

Because I think the eventual extension of this-  that people being
themselves and not debating 'philosophology' and producing tedious,
life-sapping reviews of what some other dogma-chained academics said
about some nihilistic study, will dismantle academia - or will turn it into
something where anecdotal evidence, common sense and personal opinions are
rightfully enshrined as the cornerstone of human knowledge.

I've been saying for a while that you get more common sense wisdom and
valid information by going into the bookstore and reading the popular
psychology section than you would in all the academic departments in Europe;
And I think a large part of the reason anecdotal evidence and common sense
hasnt up till now seeped into academia is because they're terrified of
that fact.


>Well, all I know is that some newsgroups (medical support groups in
>particular) are really the single best collection point of information from
>geographically diverse (and motivated populations.)  Participants shared
>experiences, treatments, referrals, --- typing out longer drug names and
>procedures.

Yes... that's true of a lot of areas on the net. In the Usenet groups
alt.hypnosis and alt.psychology.nlp in 1995 for instance, we had leaders
in the field, authors, trainers posting masses of information - for free -
and giving an unprecedentedly raised platform of discussion for these issues.
I'd say in a lot of areas the usenet / mailing list information available
blows away any other source for it; if you can get at it.

It freaked me out 18 months ago to find that this priceless information
was just being thrown away - no archives! Thankfully, that's been fixed
now thanks to the excellent Dejanews [www.dejanews.com] and Alta Vista
services. You can now search away to your hearts content for anything
on the net and find a huge mass of amazingly good info on most things.

Now... all I gotta do is talk Walter into cataloguing it all, organising
it into a coherent resource and linking it into his web page. Got a spare
500 years Walter? <GRIN>  <Only half joking>


>On one side, the poster gets the cathartic benefit of sharing and having the
>experience validated as real.

Yes indeed; I feel a lot more confident of my own knowledge of this now
[benefits of anecdotal evidence] , and it is very validating for me.
I'm known as 'anecdote-man' or 'Tangent-Man' by some of my friends because
I wont stop telling them stories & tales whenever they press one of my
synchronistic buttons. :-)


>(I took a course with Carol Gilligan in which
>a student suggested that Freud's talking cure should really be called the
>"listening cure" for the benefit was not merely in the saying, but was in
>the being heard...."

I like that; I call that 'catalysis' myself, the way having a friendly,
encouraging, agreeing ear lets us reinforce, add to, hone our insights
and gives us more in the process - whereas fear, criticism and a
cold shoulder can wound and make us unsure of our own experience as well
as cutting off the avenues for growth it can provide.
Being heard and being well received do mean a great deal IMO; Would like
you to know your article was very well heard over here. <SMILE>

On the other, the reader gets the benefit of
>information, belonging, and listening. I believe that this is, in the larger
>(largest) sense the transaction we call EDUCATION.

Yes...


>     4.  Question of voice.  I never got around to writing about this in
>class, but I think it is worth examing ... anecdotal exchange as the
>"unmasked voice" of populations that have nowhere else to go -- not merely
>because of  what< they had to say but  how< they say it.  It is easy to see
>this as a gender issue, but I like to think of it as more than that ... a
>society issue.  How does "how we have to say things" affect "what" we say?

>How about this: that the relative freedom of cyberspace allows individuals
>to offer up personal experience and truth to the collective audience.

Yes... it is very empowering indeed in that way. There are dangers though
of the old ball-and-chain of censorship rearing it's head here too though
if we're not careful. The fiasco over the word 'abortion' and America Online
banning the word 'breast' from all it's news articles
[guess that's me in the clink now under the CDA, huh? :-)]

>No
>academic rules.  No publishers.  No grammer.

Amen to that! Not so much no grammar as no-one berating you or looking
down on you for the form of it you use IMO. Respecting other people's
right to be different, to not agree, to not know, to not use the same
conventions etc. - at the same time as everyone using common sense and
helping to empower everyone else. That's the way it can be if we want
it to IMO... or we can turn it into the equivalent of the Disney Channel
or 'McDonalds online'-for thought. Ugh. <SMILE>

>The increased rate of
>interation of ideas/individuals takes places at an accelerated rate...growth
>of consciousness...etc.etc.  I rattle on.

Two things here IMO; the net itself has grown to the point where it has
to be taken seriously now; politicians & others cant ignore it's potential
anymore. But I think the growth of consciousness taking place just now
is actually quite separate from the internet; that the internet openness
we are seeing is as a result of something more spiritual. More on that
another time maybe.

Liked your story about turning the lights on too;

Thank you for illuminating my own corner this afternoon. Much brighter
and happier place with the lights on.

<WIDE SMILE>

And please, keep turning them on. There are a lot more dark rooms out there that
need illuminated ...and that's a pretty good bulb you got there IMO <SMILE>

>I have told that story so many times, but it was not until last year that I
>heard what I was saying.  Yes, I always have been the person in our family
>trying to turn on all the lights in the house, talk about what is not
>allowed to be discussed.

HBG
(really a person....female, thirties, tired, mother, inlaws coming to visit
tomorrow, argh.....)

Hope you turned some lights on for 'em<G>
And that you'll turn some more on here on Psybernet.

Warm Regards,

Steve Murray

grkinfo2@udcf.gla.ac.uk

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Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:12:19 -0400
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From:         Sheryl Garner <COpumpkin@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: PWP

Hi all...
I'd like to ask a question about everyone's personal orientation/belief...
 is the drawing together (this sounds like Stephen King) of certain people to
groups such as PWP *accidental* or synchronous?  Are the people we meet via
the internet brought to us for some reason other than chance or even common
orientation/beliefs?

Re:  Steve's email... Redfield is an enigma to me...  did he read Jung?
 Celestine Prophecy seems to me to be more a phenomenon than a story.

Sheryl (whose avatar would probably be a pumpkin)

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Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:39:41 -0700
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From:         Sieur de Cyberie <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Re-enchanting your virtual soul
Subject:      drawing together.
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Hello Cheryl,

        You ask:
> is the drawing together (this sounds like Stephen King) of certain
> people to groups such as PWP *accidental* or synchronous?

        Not that I'd claim to be an expert on any topic you or anyone may
care to think of, but I have this gut feeling that we meet here because
of synchronocity.  I've been hanging out here in PSYBER-L land for some
time (since the spring with two months off for bad behaviour) and have
found a number of people expressing similar positions.

        I think that the ebb and flow of dialogue and silence is also
related.  We tune in and join the conversation at just the right time for
us and those listening.  Maybe I'm wrong and it's the right time all the
time, but I have doubts about that.  Your question is intersting to
specualte about.

> Are the people we meet via the internet brought to us for some reason
> other than chance or even common orientation/beliefs?

        Need, the aura that attracts/attacks, opportunity to speak and
truly be heard by someone who understands and is truly listening ... can
you think of other possibilities?

Robert de Cyberie (avatar???  a shadowed hermit, a fallen dark angel with
dented halo and a cracked chalice, icy mountain crags)

PS In the The Celestine Prophecy, Redfield talks about synchronocity in
terms of the first insight ... awareness of mysterious occurrences that
change one's life (p. 19)  I think that this connects with the concept
you present.

PPS  I just read that passage earlier this evening before reading your
note and thinking of replying (another ?? occurrence).

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Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 05:11:23 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP
In-Reply-To:  <960918141217_481253605@emout08.mail.aol.com>

HBG,

> Exactly!  During my required review of formal "distance education" I became
> far more intrigued by the "rl" (real life?) education happening in
> newsgroups and listservs.  I started with a discussion group about
> homeschooling, and later branched into listening to medical support groups.

How interesting that you call newsgroups rl, (real life), I was
thinking of rl as being f2f, face-to-face.  distance education is
not something I am familiar with.  Are you speaking of courses
that are run by universities, offering degrees etc, that are
totally conducted on line?  Do they use lists?  Web?  How do they
verify identity?  Do they charge a fee.  Excuse my naivete, but I
have most got my head down here in Psybernet ad just do my thing
here.

It does sound like they "repackage" the university style, and are
not "media native" in the sense that we have been speaking of
here.


> What I find most interesting:
>
>         1.  The way in which relevant information is shared online.  The
> most successful transmission of information, I find, is "anecdotal."  I got
> a lot of flack for this in class (what is anecdotal, can it be trusted, is
> this really learning, etc...) but I stick to my guns.

I am thinking of another distinction, I am not quite sure of the
best words for it:  experiential, learner centred learning, which
is the way I learnt psychodrama contrasts with curriculum
centred, intellectual learning such as I was more familiar with
in the university.

All my life I have had to get away from schools to do the real
learning.  I began reading philosophy books once I left school,
before I went to university, and that was an interesting way to
learn, but too isolated.  Once I took it up in a university, I
found it very restrictive, and finished up focussed more on the
qualification the bit of paper than the actual learning.

So what we are doing here is on line, and not f2f, but more real
life, than the formal study of a curriculum.

This is also *collective* learning.  So can it be learner
centred?  This is the mysterious question that Sheryl is already
asking, what brings us together -- is there more than even the
shared interest?  How deep can we go collectively and be learner
centered?  Quite a way I think, ALL the way . . . however let us
see . . .

>         2.  I agree with you about this forum being a "learning
> environment."  Indeed, I think "rl" groups allows for a more thoughtful
> practice of anecdote exchange  -- the basis true "learning."

Even though our categories are a bit muddled, [in that I contrast
rl with vr virtual reality -- which is what I think of us being
"in" right now], I know what you mean . . .

Anecdote:
I spent from about 1970 to 1978 initiating, creating and working
in an "alternative school"  Four Avenues in Christchurch. It was
based on the Parklands ? project in Philadelphia? Four Avenues
close about 2 yrs ago, does any one know what happened to
Parklands?  (or was it Parkway?).

There was a strong emphasis on choice, and student centred
education, which is something I still value.  Let me say that the
Four Avenues school was frought with difficulties, and while some
wonderful things happened, id do it all differently if I could do
it again (of course). The main thing is valuing collaboration and
group dynamics more.

>         3.   I received some flack for "why are you doing this research for
> this class -  we're studying online courses offered by Univ. of XXX..."

This is an example of the very thing we are speaking of eh, there
is a strong link in your study here and what they want, but they
can't see it.  We could probably see the link with herpetology
but we would all need to move into other areas of our being  . .
. this is fear [Steve has already said this] of the unconscious,
and not unjustified really, this sort of work opens us up, and
leads to areas that can be difficult, trouble, life transforming,
and we all hate that when it actually hits us.

> Well, all I know is that some newsgroups (medical support groups in
> particular) are really the single best collection point of information from
> geographically diverse (and motivated populations.)  Participants shared
> experiences, treatments, referrals, --- typing out longer drug names and
> procedures.

This is an amazing development and democratising, as you say in
your paper.

> On one side, the poster gets the cathartic benefit of sharing and having the
> experience validated as real.

The thing is in newsgroups as here, right now, is that there is
no one teacher.  The benefit of our writing, is the remuneration,
our learning.  This is something I think we still have to come to
terms with.  I hope that I can at some point be paid, and well,
for my learning over the years.  However it is not by trying to
charge for what people are doing for free.  Psybernet is one of a
dozen or so lists that explore related matters and in great
depth.  A university in its own right, no fees are charged.
Infonomics . . . another realm . . .

> How does "how we have to say things" affect "what" we say?

Well. . . you have raised it *here* and not in the class . . .
that begins to answer the question.

> No
> academic rules.  No publishers.  No grammer.  The increased rate of
> interation of ideas/individuals takes places at an accelerated rate...growth
> of consciousness...etc.etc.  I rattle on.

Its strength and also its weakness?  Or is that my old hankering
after something more "substantial".  It is in the PWP, that we
are imposing additional structure on the free flowing discussion,
a *form* to have the flow . . . lead to where it will.

> Oh...BTW....I am very interested in the dream element of this group.  .. .

Great story . . . turning on the lights.  Fits the theme of what
we have already been writing about, uncovering that which some do
not wish to see.  Bodes well for the group here I think.  looks
like a few things will get uncovered.


Walter
being dragged from my computer by Kate who wants to go for a walk
. . .  good thing too.



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 05:11:30 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Turning on Lights
In-Reply-To:  <12698.199609181616@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk>

Steve ,


> Hope no-one minds my replying to this when I'm not in the PWP -
> I enjoyed it so much I couldnt resist it;

I think it is fine, we can have all 100 of the list members come
in on this, and add riches untold.  You will understand that it
does not go onto the web, at least directly, though thematically
it will filter through.


Walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:22:18 -0400
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Subject:      Re: Turning on Lights
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Alright, I'm awake..

Where'd Delores go?  I have a note where she promised to write, but I
haven't seen anything.

Been having a bit of fun with the Net Research crowd..  and typing way to much.

As for the education discussion..  I have to agree.  I even tried to do
something about that once and for all.. but it will have to wait for my next
project to really make some changes..

Wilbur

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Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:22:15 -0500
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From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re : Turning on Lights
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Opinion & Anecdote:

I think over-determined behavior is *potentially* problematic whether its
the result of brilliance or stupidity but the few really wise people I've
been blessed to have intersected with had the most awesome uncommon sense!!!

***

HooN

"what is essential is not important..."

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Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:27:08 -0500
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From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re : Turning on Lights -questions
In-Reply-To:  <12698.199609181616@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk>
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Why is there so much bashing of science/academia/linear
thinking/rationalism, etc. on the internet?

Hardly anybody throttles the *love of money*, or the *attachment to
illusion*, or *self-absorption*.

But, dang...

Steve Murray writes:

[snip]

>about some nihilistic study, will dismantle academia - or will turn it into
>something where anecdotal evidence, common sense and personal opinions are
>rightfully enshrined as the cornerstone of human knowledge.

I want to admit right now that I am a recovered drug addict high school
graduate with a 'c' average, self- kind-o-educated, product of the vietnam
war era counter culture, who plucked his head out of his ass only a few
years ago and I still would rue the day when "personal opinion" is part of
the cornerstone of knowledge! It's bad enough it's a cornerstone of belief.

***

Who is this monolithic academia? Now, there is a projection of an
archetype! How interesting... Whatever happened to teachers? Why do we take
the idea of an academy and damn it today as academia?

I thought to be a teacher, say at a university, is a high spiritual calling
and an honorable profession.

***

The fact of my own experience is: I have a multitude of friends and
acquaintances who are teachers in the academy and they put their pants on
one leg at a time too. They are, generalized as a group, among the most
self-aware and compassionate and generous people I know or knew.

And, having worked hard to master their discipline, they know something of
value to them, which in my growing maturity, strikes me as being very very
cool and extremely worthwhile.

***

Now as a puer, I can relate, myself, to my impulse to unconsciously bundle
into a *Saturnian* projection the hard work and discipline needed to
construct knowledge and, more to the point, MASTERY, and then to put it
into my little black box and make *typically for someone weak in sensation
and feeling like myself*, glib statements about how this projection/entity
concretized as father/boss/teacher/blahblahblah is, as Steven puts it,
>terrified of >that fact. I've done this a lot; silly.

***


Damn I hate it when teachers get hammered with wet glib noodles,

a teacher,

HooN

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Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:55:00 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP
In-Reply-To:  <960918141217_481253605@emout08.mail.aol.com>

Sheryl

> Hi all...
> I'd like to ask a question about everyone's personal orientation/belief...
>  is the drawing together (this sounds like Stephen King) of certain people to
> groups such as PWP *accidental* or synchronous?  Are the people we meet via
> the internet brought to us for some reason other than chance or even common
> orientation/beliefs?

Great question, and one I hope one that guides us in this work.
The question I am sure will be better than any of the answers.

For me it is not so much a belief as a noticing what goes on.
What I see of course remains the knowing of the soul, and not
verifiable by the methods that belong to the exploration of
things and objects.

At this moment I have no strong sense as yet of the synchronicity
at work.  The open ended nature of this PWP, is such that we can
watch what drew us together . . . who know what demons lurk?  By
even mentioning the name Stephen King you are perhps evoking
something . . .Probably what HooN said about wanting to be part
of something where we know not where we go, ties in with this.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:30:34 -0400
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From:         hollyg <hollyg@TIAC.NET>
Subject:      PWP:education, real life, turning on the lights
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What a great listserv this is ... it has been a joy to check my email the
past few days. I have had guests so it has made a nice diversion.  To
continue the thread and respond to comments:

        (NOTE:  I realize education is not the focus of the group, but it
seems to be a         lively topic and skims the larger philosophical
issues.....

To Fritz (who wrote....)


        >As far as I understand
        >Freud's talking cure, it is based on the idea that the person's
attempt to
        >articulate his/her problems creates an awareness of these problems
in the
        >concious domain which triggers processes of remedy and healing. The
listener
        >interact mainly by non-verbal communications. The important fact
seems to me
        >that processes within the person itself are stimulated. The same is
the aim of
        >education. Information, belonging and listening are just one side
of the coin
        >(named education). The other side consists of the arts of information
        >processing, analysis and synthesis, and judgement.

Yes, I agree in part.  I agree with "Freud's talking cure....healing." and
with the idea that learning is a process which resides, ultimately, within
an individual (i.e. no one can "learn" or "understand" for another person.)

However, recent learning theories - Bandura's social cognitive theory in
particular -- are beginning to factor in the individual's relation with
environment and others as part of the "learning" equation.  This is not
limited to the effects of nature and nuture ... but also consider the second
half of the interactive process -- the effect the learner has in shaping
environment and triggering behaviour of others.  Rather than imaging
learning as a top-down, cause effect process, it more closely resembles a
"flow state" model.

Back to Freud and traditional interpretations of the talking cure ... if we
branch out to this interactive theory, the traditional "mainly... non-verbal
communications" model seems rather limited -- too limited, I think.
Personally, I usually don't trust people who do not share a bit of
themselves with me....

        >In fact we adhere to rules
        >in submitting posts, Walter is the publisher of the Web-page, and
without the
        >use of grammar the contents of the messages would get lost. From my
point of
        >view, the freedom of cyberspace is the interconnectness of people
who live in
        >different parts of our globe and who are immersed in different
cultures.
        >Education, in this respect, should also foster transcultural
exchanges without
        >trying to impose one set of social values.

I agree with you, but think it is a different point than I was making.
The story (anecdote) that best explains what I mean by "how and where you
say it affects what you say" is Carol Gilligan's (author of "In a Different
Voice") explanation of how she started her research.  She began as a
teaching assistant under Eric Ericson at Harvard.  In discussion sections,
female students would raise their hands and ask relevant, challenging
questions -- many wondering why their real life experience and moral
dilemnas did not match the theory the class was studying.  Prof. Gilligan
remembered saying time and again "That is a good point, but it is not what
we are talking about here..." Over time, she noticed the women students
began to fade away -- to silence or to dropping the course.

The importance of the internet is, quite literally, free discourse (while
this freedom lasts).  If one group says, "this is not what we are talking
about here" you can move to another group or start your own.

I am not an academic anarchist ...  or wish to imply that Professors do not
have the right to organize lectures to cover material succintly.  HOWEVER
(caps) anyone who has had the experience of being muffled and/or silenced or
told "you are wrong" "you just don't know enough to think for yourself"
knows what it's like -- it's the psychology of the "occupied mind" (just
like an "occupied country" in a war.)  You go along for survival, you put up
and shut up, but you are never really convinced.  The truth never really
goes away.

The other side of the argument is that the big we (humanity) really isn't
learning if huge portions of society cannot contribute their collective
truth(experience).  So Fritz, maybe I do come 'round to your point after all!

So the net becomes a place to speak the truth....

Gotta' Run.  rl cat destroying rl sofa....

HBG

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Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:23:10 GMT
Reply-To:     judithb@sbc1.com
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Organization: Business Connects, Inc.
Subject:      Re: drawing together.
Content-Type: text

Robert, et al
< I've been hanging out here in PSYBER-L land for some
time (since the spring with two months off for bad behaviour) and have
found a number of people expressing similar positions.>
was it a string of bad poetry??:-), Robert

Robert you resond to Cheryl< I think that the ebb and flow of dialogue and
silence is also
related.  We tune in and join the conversation at just the right time for
us and those listening.  Maybe I'm wrong and it's the right time all the
time, but I have doubts about that.  Your question is intersting to
specualte about.>
There is within synchronicity as I have experienced it, action taken which of
curse can be inaction, but here there is an unavoidable element of personal
action that is required in order to "experience" synchronicity...which then
leads me merrily along conjecturing that responsiveness which I think is
implied in your "we tune in and join the conversation at just the right time"
the degree to which one is responsive to that call within oneself is the
degree to which one experiences synchronicty. My own experience and how I
incorporate this list within my life is that I come here for inspiration, in
my silence listening, I find everytime without exception I am enriched, my
creativity activated, what had seemed inert when I signed on is not motion,
sort of like the cue ball hitting the stack and off go the balls in many
directions which then I can follow...
Judith synchronistically, she hopes;-)


--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:48:17 GMT
Reply-To:     judithb@sbc1.com
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Organization: Business Connects, Inc.
Subject:      Re: Re : Turning on Lights -questions
Content-Type: text

Hey, Hoony, wanna have some fun? (with acknowledgement that I live in the US
and therefore the following has build in bias (don't read cynacism)
<
Who is this monolithic academia? Now, there is a projection of an
archetype! How interesting... Whatever happened to teachers? Why do we take
the idea of an academy and damn it today as academia?

I thought to be a teacher, say at a university, is a high spiritual calling
and an honorable profession.>
ah, yes, the intersection of knowledge and application... Could be however,
there is certainly a construct within the construction of knowledge and
underlying research methodology (read scientific positivism for the most
part) that separates the knowledge from the person, unless one subscribes to
"I am my workknowledge"(which is a whole other topic called walking and
talking)...so teaching can be  a high spiritual calling or it can be prompted
by high spiritual calling and then rl sets in and tenure  and egos and oops
where did my high spiritual calling go? must have slipped under by robe;-)
But one can lament at the university coffee house about the system...
***
<The fact of my own experience is: I have a multitude of friends and
acquaintances who are teachers in the academy and they put their pants on
one leg at a time too. They are, generalized as a group, among the most
self-aware and compassionate and generous people I know or knew.>
what I hear here is "I am my job",...we can throw in a little od here and
conjecture that people become caught by their pants in the system and the
critical tension between getting "dressed up" in rl and getting "dressed
down" by academics who "are ALL dressed in their theory" which oh BTW happens
to radically diverge from mine, which catches me "by the seat of"...the stuff
of connundrum, eh...isn't that what the baby boomers found when they marched
thru the 60's into stocks and bonds...(and then there is the logic of
rationalization)

<And, having worked hard to master their discipline, they know something of
value to them, which in my growing maturity, strikes me as being very very
cool and extremely worthwhile.>
absolutely agree...and on the other hand the creation of knowledge ala
academia which creates knowledge out of past logic holeserrors in previous
knowledge and which is limited by the measurement systems and ones logic
prowess...and which knows but cannot acknowledge theory until it can be
proven, maybe extremely worthwhile but then it gets messy when the knowledge
ala "published papers" drives policyprofessions and then what is worthwhile
collides with self interest and blind spots and filter systems, and then we
have the pharmacological system of treatment and half (admittedly an
exaggeration)the female population of america on prosac and kids with ants in
their pants (wouldn't you if you had to sit and be bored to death) on redolin
...so my worthwhile wants the academic mainstream to think about soul, in
fact start from a premise that there is soul and not the premise that until
we can see it we can't believe it...and OBTW annecdotally you know I healed
my life long depression (which I defined as a spiritualsoul issue and went
from there) without even an aspirin tho I did have my deveated septum fixed
when I read that John Hopkins found something like a 98%  correlation between
right ds and depression(meaning breath not getting to the right side of the
brain which the yogis knew all along),...whew...

***
<Now as a puer, I can relate, myself, to my impulse to unconsciously bundle
into a *Saturnian* projection the hard work and discipline needed to
construct knowledge>
so ala the Puritan work ethic if one is hard at work it is by definition
worthwhiletruthright..sounds like the Frederick Taylor school of work-man
equals machine equals work work work...meanwhile I'm reading Hillman's The
Soul's Code and working hard to understand what "puer" means ;-)...which gets
to knowledge created thru academic research and the annecdotal...it is hard
work say for me who has never trod the psychology road to be "here" exactly
because I don't have the legacy of knowledge created but it's fun to
listen...and any contribution I can make is necessarily going to be
annecdotal...and occasionally insighting:-) she says hopefully
<snip>
***
<Damn I hate it when teachers get hammered with wet glib noodles,

a teacher,

HooN>
but noodle hammering is sooooo much fun and I know fun is one of your core
values...
anyway the hammering is going on at the "wrong" level...if one is going to
hammer one must IMO hammer at research methodogyassumptions which is my great
fun...
with great respect for your teaching,
desse (oops Judith)in search of an archetype sighting
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:13:46 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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From:         /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject:      Intellect, Anecdotes & Synchronicity
In-Reply-To:  <960918141217_481253605@emout08.mail.aol.com> from "Sheryl
              Garner" at Sep 18, 96 02:12:19 pm
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Hi folks,

due to synchronistic overload this articles going to have to have multiple
existences:

- as a reply to Laurel's 'Great Intellect' comments from a week or so ago;
her article pressed a lot of buttons with me and spawned this writeup;

- as more of my thoughts on Holly's comments about anecdotes; it
struck me that this article I wrote up is a lot about personal truth and
anecdotal evidence, too;

- as an answer to Sheryl's question about meetings in psyberspace
 and places like Psybernet, PWP being 'accidental' or 'synchronous'

My best to all three of you & everyone here, and thanks for pressing
more of my synchronistic buttons. Hope this article presses some too.

Apologies for the length, I've been saving up for this one rather <G>

Enjoy,

Steve Murray

----

1 .Fire in the heart
2. Cleverness without wisdom
3. Thinking for ourselves
4. Sparking Thoughts
5. First Impressions
6. 'Just Knowing' - some anecdotal evidence
    - excerpt 1
    - excerpt 2
7. Holding Visions of friends
8. Answer to Sheryl
9. References

Fire in the heart
--------------------

<Laurel wrote:>
>Also, I have never found looks to be the first thing that attracted me in a
>male. With me it has always been intelligence. But a certain type of
>intelligence, fireworks in the mind sort of thing.

Ah-hah... this reminds me of 'Heart-knowing' intelligence, or wisdom; the kind which you
dont work out with a calculator, a computer [or a bunch of stuffed shirts  :-)] but which
you know from your own experience and feelings is so. And which when it is articulated into
words speaks from the heart and carries powerful energies.

I think of it as 'fire in the heart', rather than fireworks in the mind; a burning flame of feeling
and intuition and wisdom which we know can guide us if we trust our instincts and our
own abilties.

Cleverness without wisdom
-----------------------------------

<Laurel>
>I have never found men no >matter their IQ who are capable only of wholly
linear thought to be in the >least bit appealling.

Perhaps because it's not really their thoughts and opinions they're good
at repeating and calculating methinks....  Taking someone elses system, be it
mathematics, science, religion, politics and rehearsing, learning, reciting
and bludgeoning their own creativity and uniqueness so squarely over the
head with it that they become like clones, robots so unable to think for
themselves that they cannot even understand their own subjective experience
and feelings because they dont fit into their framework. People so
rigidly bought with and chained to the scientific method or other dogma that
they cannot even muster the courage to treat the events of their own lives
as valid evidence with which to work out what is going on in them.

I'm not trying to slag these folk off for the sake of it, because I used to be
one of these people myself. The mathematician from hell who could hardly
tie his own shoelaces. It's the *thought-patterns* that I'm criticising - the
idea that you can work things out analytically and intellectually without
bothering what your feelings and your heart say and that by buying into someone
elses second-hand knowledge to keep your job, your peers & your next research
grant that you can have a good life: no matter what it does to your feelings,
and your inner knowing that things aint right.

This 'cleverness without wisdom'
thought-pattern is the culprit for a great deal of the messes humanity has created
IMO; I like the old indian's quip on it:
'When you have cut down the last tree, and poisoned the last river, you will know that
you cant eat money.'
That's not 'cleverness' - THAT is  wisdom.


Thinking for ourselves
------------------------------

I like to make a distinction between what I believe because I've been told
and what I know through experience; For most of my life I've had a big
gulf between those two parts of my knowledge, since my everyday reality
of how people react, behave, think, look, feel just didnt concur with
what I was told at school, by my friends and parents.

Having had a bit of an upheaval in most areas of my beliefs in the last
couple of years, I'm now a lot more 'congruent' with what I know in my
heart and what I know 'in my head' from other information. I judge
information, events, ideas, people & decisions in terms of what I think
inside these days rather than what other people will think.

It's by having beliefs, opinions, thoughts and a way of dealing with
events and new information 'in the now' rather than abdicating our
own 'policy' to politicians, religions , the lads or girls down the
pub or the lodge, or any of the myriad of surrogate opinion-sellers we
give our minds away to, that we can know that our beliefs, our thoughts
and our intelligence is really our own rather than turning ourselves
into dull, one-manifesto-change-a-year-if-you're-lucky clones.

IMO, there are two kinds of people in Laurel's lightbulb analogy - those who
delight in new information, accept it honestly and maintain a strong
connection between what they know in their heart and what they know in
their head - and those who dont even trust their own experience and subjective
judgement enough to give it credence in making intellectual decisions.


As Albert Schweitzer said,

'It will ever remain incomprehensible that a species so great in it's
achievements of learning could be so low spiritually as to give up thinking'.


Sparking thoughts
------------------------

<Laurel>
>I prefer the sparks that come from fires to the
>steady glow of an electric bulb.

I prefer the fires & the sparks too; the flames of creativity, claiming
our rights to be ourselves, to not conform, to not agree, to be different,
to hold a different view and to dare to set other people on fire with it
too -these are the sparks and flames of freedom [of thought] IMO.

I think everyone gets these sparks to be honest - and that
it's what we do with these sparks - whether we cherish them and let them
lift us up out of our linear analyses or whether we snuff them out quickly
before anyone sees - that makes all the difference IMO.

The steady glow of the same old someone-elses-dogma bulb isnt just dull and
boring - most of the time it's not even our lightbulb IMO.

First Impressions
----------------------

<Laurel>
>As one who can rather immodestly say,  has been judged by how she looked for
>most of her life..the anonimity of cyberspace, the fact that it is your
>thoughts on display (perhaps one might also add ego)  rather than your
>physical attributes which I find to be one of the mediums greatest benefits.

Indeed, the first impressions which cyberspace creates are different from
those which F2F contact does. I think that it's a totally different set
of people who we 'qualify' and form that initial good impression of
according to our personal subconcsious likes and prejudices; that's not
to say that if we then met people F2F who we had grown to like in
cyberspace that we would change those good impressions - I dont think
we would, because we already have a heart-knowing of who that other
person really is which can veto the negative input.

Their charming sense of humor, their liveliness, the
light, laughter and fun-filled catalysis, validation and encouragement which
we have delighted in doesnt dissipate if we are confronted F2F with
someone who we would have otherwise disqualified from our good impressions
had we not grown to love them from the cyberspace interaction.

Perhaps cyberspace here holds the key to breaking down many forms of
communication barriers between people; Those who grow to love - and I
talk primarily of a spiritual, brotherly or sisterly love, not necessarily
the romantic kind - in psyberspace do not lose that love when they
meet F2F and face the prejudices - racial, age-related, sexual or whatever -
which clash with that love; in my experience it is the love which wins and
the prejudice which falls by the wayside.

I myself have been put to shame in that regard; I have never thought of
myself as racist or sexist, but equally have never felt forming impressions and
categorisations of people according to their age to be unfair; perhaps
because it is not yet politically incorrect, I will admit with a twinge
of guilt - or perhaps because I'm young and havent been on the receiving end.
Anyway, I recently have had  an e-mail conversation  with a now much valued friend
without asking her age or circumstances. It just didnt come up; we were
so involved and excited in the things we were discussing that we never thought
to go into that. And gradually as I realised the torrent of spiritual love I
have for the woman I began to want to know her circumstances; the bits of
information which a F2F relationship would normally start with.

When I learned her age and circumstances it rather shocked me a bit - but
instead of invalidating our experience, catalysis and love - spiritual,
unconditional love - it both confirmed it and blew away my prejudice.
Instead of pretending I havent been touched, delighted, awed, blown away
by her insight, kindness and wisdom and reinstalling my old pictures of
how someone that age 'must be like', I've changed those pictures and kept
the lovely feelings.

One of the most important lessons I've learned from this is that it's
one of these situations where we can take the best of both worlds from it;
we can have a heart-knowing of the beauty, magnificence and love flowing
in people who we would previously have disqualified from our affection -
and know that it is the love that is the true perspective.

And that is indeed one of the great things about psyberspace IMO- that contact
through it can act as an initial sensitising event for acceptance, understanding,
catalysis & spiritual love where no other form of meeting might be able
to break down the barriers and conditioned responses we have built up.

<Laurel>
>I dont behave the way you expect me to behave..because of the way I look.
>We immediatly may snap judgments.. we sum up a person on their looks  and
>attire in mili seconds on meeting them (no arguing here - I've read my
>Desmond Morris) .. .

Yes... this is something I do time and again with people and only find
later to my shame that I've misjudged and prejudiced myself against people
just because of old patterns of thought & stereotyping . I know
mentally that that isnt fair anymore, but it hasnt gotten through to my
'heart-knowing' yet. Takes time, friendly criticism, catalysis & a lot
of unconditional love. I'm getting that, & I'll get there. <SMILE>

>we know instinctivively if we are likely to like them,
>are attracted to them.. etc etc and go from there.

Hmmm... sometimes, yes; I can often tell quickly when a woman is going to be
a kind, caring, nurturing person- the friendly smile & the gentle manner
are a dead givaway. <G>

Just Knowing
-----------------

 But I think it's more than just looks and impression
at work here; I think people who are naturally loving broadcast a certain
subconscious pattern, thought, magnetism, vibration , whatever you want
to call it which we can pick up and very quickly 'know' that that other
person is a lovely, wonderful human radiating and shining with spiritual love.
An instant 'heart-knowing' of that love; and this brings me back to the
issue of intelligence : it's not something we can work out mentally,
 it's something we 'just know'. And having committed that most heinous crime
 against the scientific method - saying 'I just know' - let me compound
 it further by explaining what I mean by that.

 When I talk about unconditional love and that it is not a mathematical
 working-out of the attraction I do not mean by 'unconditional' that it
 is love 'for no reason'. There are well-defined reasons for that love;
 it has a basis, a context, a purpose. Recently whilst feeling particularly
 awed by my friend and the depth and power of that love, I sat down and
 wrote down these reasons, it's context. I'll enclose some of it here.

[Excerpt from 'Articulation of Love':
----------------------------------------------

[**This is from a mail message to my friend, so most of it is addressed to her
I do think including this as a kind of anecdote gives a far better illustration
of what I mean by 'just knowing' than I can give in 'academospeak'. ]

Today and yesterday after collecting my thoughts and writing I have felt
a great lightness in my body; I've been spontaneously laughing and smiling
 at things for the first time in a while, too. I feel the lightness and love-energy
 which I had the last time I such a deep & charming  exchange on the net  - and I feel the
 subtle keenness of my understanding of love, what is going on and why I like
 you so much - I'm  capable of describing that tonight,

I love your insight; I love the way you are able to channel your own higher
self in the things you write, it really does show; I love the way you
think, and your dedication and commitment to the plan. I love the way you
helped me, your responsibleness and your generous efforts to help me;
that delighting in the wellbeing and growth of others is a facet of female
love I have long been lacking in... but something I am trying to develop.
Delighting in love, in being kind, and gentle, and sensitive, and lovely,
and in seeing the contentment, growth and dawning understanding of other
people is something I do like - and do want to do - but so often up till now
my actions have been driven, not called, by my own imbalances. Seeing your
own combination of keen, accurate insight balanced with a warm, loving,
friendly delight in other people's wellbeing is a joy to see; Your light
shines brightly, as does that of  a few other wonderful
lightworkers I've had the pleasure to meet.

I am delighted at the way you've treated me, too; When I look at how I
approached you and the way I dealt with things, your kindness and grounding
in your own integrity has really come up trumps; you humored me, whilst being
honest and fair to yourself; you answered my questions, whilst pointing out
my incongruities and imbalance;. Wow! I know you're not looking for praise
or commendation for it's own sake, but I would like to acknowledge how
much I admire, appreciate and love your generosity, kindness, integrity,
and just the marvellous, lovely way you treated me. And to let you know
that your efforts really have mattered; have really made a difference
for me. That you really are the bridge of love you said you were.

I love your friendship. I've known few people in my time who've really
cared about the truth more than the way things looked, when the chips
were down; I've known few people I would trust my life & my security to;
With you, not only do I feel at ease talking to you and trusting you, but I
 know - beyond any doubt - that you're the best kind of friend one can have;
 a friend who truly, unconditionally loves their friends.

Reading your mails, and thinking about the things you've been doing that
you've told me about, your hopes and ideas, your opinions, I find myself
smiling more fully and honestly than I ever have; I find myself knowing
very quickly that I agree and concur with you, that I trust you and that
I can assimilate and act on your information without having to keep
it at arms length for more than a minute or too - because in large areas
we're working from the same master mind-map and it's so, so obviously
valid beyond reasonable doubt.

I love your personality; The grins, the smiles, the enthusiasm and your
sense of humor; your style of writing, your way of putting things and
thinking about things and the way I grin, smile and feel a warmth and
connection with the things you say again and again as I read your stuff.

The kind, bubbly, gentle yet strong, loving yet focussed and balanced,
grounded and congruently aligned integrity of your noble, lovely and
shiningly beautiful personality glows with the golden light of angels;
 An unselfish, unconditional love, and I know that nothing will stop you
from shining that light on everyone who enters your world; and that too
 is delightful to me, I want the other people in your sphere to benefit from
that light too - I dont  want to stifle or swamp it with unbalanced energy,
 and I wont.

 I love you very, very much - and I feel your powerful, wonderful love for me too;
and I want you to be able to shine that love out to many people too,
and for me to shine the Light to many in my sphere too. The unconditional,
unselfish and equal nature of the love makes it stronger, catalsyes it's
flow-  and we love each individual person all the more rather than less
for it. So, I love you very deeply - and it really is strengthened by it's
unconditional nature.

I love your soul; I love your higher self. I feel a connection to who
you are; I feel a knowing of your great wisdom, of your high evolution and
of your shining light of goodness and divine love. It's a background
to everything I read from you, every time I think about you; a strong,
pervading feeling of knowing who you are and how wonderful, how noble and
how lovely you are. I put that feeling into the words
'Well met, lightworker' a few messages back.

I've enjoyed saying these things; they nail down the feeling I have
coming out of my heart just now; they describe partially the great
feelings of awe, love, connection and compassion I feel for you -and I
hope you've enjoyed reading them. I want to emphasise that I'm not singling
you out for some reason - I love others as much and in the same way - and that
  I'm telling you this because I  think the words will carry the energy across to
 you and give you a  kind of 'thank you', an acknowlegement of the lovely effect
you've had on me. It's a spiritual love-letter, not a romantic energy-grab one.

And I hope you enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it, <WARM SMILE>

Laurana

Steve
---[end of 'articulation of love' excerpt.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My second defence for saying 'I just know' is the following -this is an excerpt
from another article I wrote to articulate and nail down my feelings of love.

---Excerpt

When I wrote the first article,[articulation of love]  I felt the lovely energy of deep true,
spiritual love for you  I realised that I could articulate
how I felt, that this love does have a basis and a context; it has
a value, a reason, a direction to it. I think there is a danger when
talking ahout unconditional love that we mistake 'love with no conditions'
for 'love for no reason'. There are many wonderful reasons why I love
the people in my life; when I try to feel love for people who have wronged me,
I am not affirming their negativity or their actions - I am looking into
their soul, their light, their true purpose - and feeling empathy and
compassion and wishing them success in checking their imbalances and
being able to evolve.

I think this ?targetting?, ?precision? and being sure of the congruence
of our own thoughts and opinions is a very good thing in general; to know
the links between the different pieces of knowledge and opinion that
we have is to be able to spot the incongruence or congruence of what
we are told by others and the basis of discernment; it is in this knowing
beyond reasonable doubt that our ability to glean the truth and the Light
out of the grand facade humanity has constructed that our ability to
break the lies and patterns of negativity and manipulation  resides IMO.

Spiritual Love, deep true love,  unconditional love ,  it is this which is the
core focus of the Celestine Prophecy, of Louise Hay's ideas, of my own
awakening, and indeed is at the centre and the highest scope part of my
own master mind-map for the way things are. To know WHY we love another -
to know what it is that makes the energy come forth, what triggers it, what
catalyses it's flow and how we can enhance it for both ourselves and others -
this is one of the most important insights that one can possess and cherish
IMO - because if we understand the linkages between love and the other
things that we think, and do, and feel , and are . then we become empowered
to strengthen the conduits and channels through which it can flow to the
other parts of our knowledge, our actions, our behaviour.

An illustration of this I like a lot is the master mind-map analogy; If
I have Love at the centre and I examine the links between it and
communication, catalysis, scope, focus, quality, targetting, optimum health,
paradigm shifts, integrity, integration, knowing for sure, synchronicity,
common ground, taboos & fear & manipulation & negativity, congruence,
random-accessibility, freedom, empowerment, ecology, responsibility, trust,
clarity, qualification [of people, feelings, and information], bootstrapping,
loveliness, sweetness, beauty, magnificence, elegance, happiness, pleasantness,
wonderfullness

[Phew!] <GRIN>

then I can know WHY I love someone; why when I think you are a lovely,
wonderful, marvellous person, why I think that. Why the love flows so strongly
when I think of you and your lovely messages, and what it is that I can
do myself -can iron out in my own mind-map, actions and integrity -that
I can integrate, and evolve, and refine, to widen and deepen my own
channels and conduits of love to match the quicker, fuller flow, stronger
flow of your own mind-map. The river analogy is one I love here; When you
pour more love down a channel than it's used to, blocks, debris and
gathered sediment get swept away. And so it is with the mind-map; when
stronger, deeper love is poured through it the blocks start to give way
and parts of it hitherto unreachable, too high up the banks as it were,
can take to the water and join the flow.
In the words of a song which has me tingling all over every time I hear it:

The river is flowing, flowing and growing
The river is flowing, back to the sea;
Mother Earth carry me, a child I will always be
Mother Earth carry me, back to the sea.

It has been important and useful to me to know that there are
well-defined reasons for my love; that if I trace the feelings and
look deeply at the links then I can both strengthen and boostrap the love
and also iron out incongruences, blocks and brakes in my mind-map which
might stifle it or block it.

I have felt these blocks give way under the flow of love I feel; Mountains
becoming molehills, and cliffs disappearing below me as I soar on my
eagle-wings.

I feel that people can be stifled in their love when they try to
love 'unconditionally' and lose track of what they actually feel; conscious
knowledge of why we love another is an integral part of the feeling, the
energy IMO. This is something I noticed with women who have a natural
connection to that love; that they can so easily feel the love flowing through
 them for other people. Before April/May this year, I found that really hard myself;

I wrote an article titled 'Boardroom Crisis' [reference at end] back in May about how  men process
the feminine emotions & was struck profoundly by the following lines in a reply
I got to it:

>Not bad for a man, huh? :-)
'As I said, not bad for a man....'
'But I bet as a man you found it a lot harder than i would have.'

And I thought Yes! That's it! [This was four days after writing
Boardroom Crisis]. Because as a man, trying to feel unconditional love
for people and trying to validate it I kept coming up against the injunctions
against sensitivity, feminine emotions and the fear of what my friends
and family would think. Whereas these women would delight in their kind,
gentle, sweet and happy thoughts; feel delighted at the love they felt
for people and delighted *that* they felt it too; loving all the subsidiary,
linkage, validating thoughts for the love. All the links in their  mind-maps
as to *why* they love also trigger more happy, kind and loving thoughts;
they pull out good, loving, feminine thought-associations from the
thought police files. Whereas my thought-police would be pulling out
injunctions, fear, guilt, doubt etc. as I described in the Boardroom Crisis
article.

[Aside: Being reminded of  Holly's comments again, this article is a kind of anecdote -
it's a combination of some of my own coincidental experiences and a long allegory of what happens in the male mind when a rogue sensitive, feminine thought gets in. I've found that
anecdotes & allegories like this can be much more potent than ordinary
writing for communicating this kind of insight.]

In thinking about this, I realised that the Boardroom Crisis method -
pulling out thoughts from the new files, and not the old - and having
a  hypnotically-implanted initial sensitising event  for Love - was exactly what could
give me the same delight in happy, gentle, kind and feminine thought-associations,
linkages, validations and knowing WHY I felt the love and *liking*, *loving*,
and *validating* that;

My friend's saying  that the 'articulation of love'
article was very validating for her struck me, but I didnt really know
why at the time; I think I have just answered that question - it is this
validation by the associated links in our mind-map, the reasons WHY we
love, that I think we need to get the love flowing; to have validating
thought-associations coming out of our thought-files, with our friends
giving us the catalysis, approval, trust, love, respect, and validation
that we need to know why we love, to widen the conduits, to pull the
thought-associations out of the right files and delight in the loving
thoughts that we have, the loving actions that we do and indeed the
lightwork that we do; to have validating, encouraging and catalsysing
links to our lightwork-actions rather than feeling we're being taken for
granted.

And the thing is we *can* give each other that validation. It's just that
far too often it's seen as an optional extra; as a nice thing to maybe do
if we get time to have a rest, to tell Sally how much her dedication,
love and hard work means to us - when that validation and positive
association to the thoughts you put in your own files is very important
for your own encouragement, clarity and indeed all the high-scope
things I mentioned in the long list of love-associations.

Granted, many people find it difficult to articulate this validation if
they dont get it themselves. But when we do get it, it's infectious!
Firstly because it strengthens our love-linkages and associations and
bootstraps our being able to feel self-love; Secondly because that
self-love allows us to reciprocate the validation without feeling
jealous or 'poor-me'; and thirdly because it at least temporarily removes
the  'People dont appreciate me' thought-pattern;

----end of second excerpt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**end of the excerpts which were addressed to my friend**

So, all this said, that's how I 'just know' when I love someone spiritually;
whether it's someone on the internet or someone I meet physically or
whether it's someone whose book I'm reading even: I 'just know'. I have
 a 'heart-knowing' of it. But it's a very well-defined and validated knowing.
 And getting stronger all the time. <SMILE>


Holding Visions of Friends
-----------------------------------

>Which is why I find
>cyberspace fascinating. You just cant do that here. The reverse happens
>because you are all characters in a novel to me here..I can see you as I
>chose to see you, and I can assign physical attributes to you accordingly
>based on wether I like you or what you have to say.

Wow... I like that way of doing it! I've met F2F or seen pictures of some of
the people I've talked with on the net  -and afterwards I felt some
twinges of guilt that I was letting their real pictures diminish and block
the fun and previous good impressions I'd had of them. So, I just decided
they would look the way I wanted them to look in my mind - since I already
knew that their true selves did not have the limitations their real
pictures conjured up in my mind.

[ I've found a particularly potent way of overcoming blocks or diminishing
  of catalysis / love in a psyber-relationship for me has been to picture the other person as
I know their true self to be, behind all my prejudice and misjudgement and under all their
own guilt, doubt, & fear - as a shining, lovely being of pure light and love. ]

It really makes a huge difference what mental pictures you hold of people IMO;

<Laurel>
>Of course Fritz will no doubt now be justified in pointing out that I have
>little of any note to contribute

Au contraire, madam. I've had a thoroughly enjoyable afternoon nailing down
some more fun and highly interesting bits of information from you. And
although it's fun, pleasant and uplifting to think about these things I
for one consider your insights to be very significant, useful and of
quite some 'note'.

Struck a real chord with me! <GRIN>

8.  Answer to Sheryl

All this said, let me give my own answer to Sheryl's question about meetings in
psyberspace being accidental or synchronous; I would have to come down
squarely on the side of synchronicity and say that I think there is really no
such thing as an accidental meeting when we find ourselves exchanging
messages, insights, fun, light and laughter with people. I think that we actually
create our own experiences by the thought-patterns we send out - that if we
send out love, kindness, and uplifting thoughts then we will synchronistically
attract like-minded people. And that it is no accident when we find our soulmates
on mailing lists, newsgroups etc; the global nature of the internet makes it
quite easy for fate to move people who have messages for each other together IMO,

My article Boardroom Crisis is the best anecdotal proof I have of that IMO, after
'The Celestine Prophecy' itself. Redfield is an enigma and a phenomen to me too...

There is a Celestine prophecy electronic mailing list incidentally; you wouldnt
believe the number of coincidences on it every day, it's scary.

http://newciv.org

has details of it.

9. References

'Boardroom Crisis' article I posted to Psybernet back in May,
http://www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html

The Celestine Prophecy, James Redfield
You Can Heal your Life, Louise L Hay


Steve 'has that guy swallowed a dictionary or what'  Murray

grkinfo2@udcf.gla.ac.uk

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:37:37 -0400
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>... certain people to
>groups such as PWP *accidental* or synchronous?  Are the people we meet via
>the internet brought to us for some reason other than chance or even common
>orientation/beliefs?

I have always been a bit reluctant to talk about the importance of
synchronicity in my life. (That silence again!)   Most of my more
linear-living friends laugh at me when I talk about it.  I am affectionately
dismissed as "scattered" or "lucky" or "always landing on my feet."  I find
myself a bit weary of the condescension.

What many fail to appreciate is how frightening it is to go against popular
logic and follow intuition at every level (raising a child, talking to
strangers, selecting classes in graduate school...)

The way I have made "synchronicity" a logical, acceptable fact in my life is
to think of it a combination of brain process and grace (God, higher power,
whatever you call it).  Sometimes, I just have to sit back and accept that
my brain synthesizes and processes all types of information -- some which
may reside in the conscious, some which may reside in the subconscious.  For
example, "first impressions" may be a complex synthesis of what we hear,
see, and smell, and how these observations match up with past experiences.
This "first impression" or hunch seems instantaneous, but it really is the
product of high level processing.

And as for grace...well, it is such a great word for the moments that simply
"have to be" -- I call them the "tingle music" moments -- when I meet a
person in an improbable place because I made a detour, when I miss disaster,
when I call the certain person at just the right time, when I join a
listserv out of the blue because I got tired of EDUTECH ....  my personal
metaphor for these moments are points.  Free will dictates the line of
action we take, and we meet these moments and people at the intertices.

I am going to avoid the more psychic elements -- just not ready to talk
about it (that silence thing again)

So, Sheryl, just some thoughts. Hope its not too long...

HBG

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:18:16 GMT
Reply-To:     judithb@sbc1.com
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Organization: Business Connects, Inc.
Subject:      With apologies
Content-Type: text

Evidentally there was a duplicate message so please disregard if I'm
repostingposted...clueless about what happened, but with great apology for
whatever cybersin I commited
judith

Hey, Hoony, wanna have some fun? (with acknowledgement that I live in the US
and therefore the following has build in bias (don't read cynacism)
<
Who is this monolithic academia? Now, there is a projection of an
archetype! How interesting... Whatever happened to teachers? Why do we take
the idea of an academy and damn it today as academia?

I thought to be a teacher, say at a university, is a high spiritual calling
and an honorable profession.>
ah, yes, the intersection of knowledge and application... Could be however,
there is certainly a construct within the construction of knowledge and
underlying research methodology (read scientific positivism for the most
part) that separates the knowledge from the person, unless one subscribes to
"I am my workknowledge"(which is a whole other topic called walking and
talking)...so teaching can be  a high spiritual calling or it can be prompted
by high spiritual calling and then rl sets in and tenure  and egos and oops
where did my high spiritual calling go? must have slipped under by robe;-)
But one can lament at the university coffee house about the system...
***
<The fact of my own experience is: I have a multitude of friends and
acquaintances who are teachers in the academy and they put their pants on
one leg at a time too. They are, generalized as a group, among the most
self-aware and compassionate and generous people I know or knew.>
what I hear here is "I am my job",...we can throw in a little od here and
conjecture that people become caught by their pants in the system and the
critical tension between getting "dressed up" in rl and getting "dressed
down" by academics who "are ALL dressed in their theory" which oh BTW happens
to radically diverge from mine, which catches me "by the seat of"...the stuff
of connundrum, eh...isn't that what the baby boomers found when they marched
thru the 60's into stocks and bonds...(and then there is the logic of
rationalization)

<And, having worked hard to master their discipline, they know something of
value to them, which in my growing maturity, strikes me as being very very
cool and extremely worthwhile.>
absolutely agree...and on the other hand the creation of knowledge ala
academia which creates knowledge out of past logic holeserrors in previous
knowledge and which is limited by the measurement systems and ones logic
prowess...and which knows but cannot acknowledge theory until it can be
proven, maybe extremely worthwhile but then it gets messy when the knowledge
ala "published papers" drives policyprofessions and then what is worthwhile
collides with self interest and blind spots and filter systems, and then we
have the pharmacological system of treatment and half (admittedly an
exaggeration)the female population of america on prosac and kids with ants in
their pants (wouldn't you if you had to sit and be bored to death) on redolin
...so my worthwhile wants the academic mainstream to think about soul, in
fact start from a premise that there is soul and not the premise that until
we can see it we can't believe it...and OBTW annecdotally you know I healed
my life long depression (which I defined as a spiritualsoul issue and went
from there) without even an aspirin tho I did have my deveated septum fixed
when I read that John Hopkins found something like a 98%  correlation between
right ds and depression(meaning breath not getting to the right side of the
brain which the yogis knew all along),...whew...

***
<Now as a puer, I can relate, myself, to my impulse to unconsciously bundle
into a *Saturnian* projection the hard work and discipline needed to
construct knowledge>
so ala the Puritan work ethic if one is hard at work it is by definition
worthwhiletruthright..sounds like the Frederick Taylor school of work-man
equals machine equals work work work...meanwhile I'm reading Hillman's The
Soul's Code and working hard to understand what "puer" means ;-)...which gets
to knowledge created thru academic research and the annecdotal...it is hard
work say for me who has never trod the psychology road to be "here" exactly
because I don't have the legacy of knowledge created but it's fun to
listen...and any contribution I can make is necessarily going to be
annecdotal...and occasionally insighting:-) she says hopefully
<snip>
***
<Damn I hate it when teachers get hammered with wet glib noodles,

a teacher,

HooN>
but noodle hammering is sooooo much fun and I know fun is one of your core
values...
anyway the hammering is going on at the "wrong" level...if one is going to
hammer one must IMO hammer at research methodogyassumptions which is my great
fun...
with great respect for your teaching,
desse (oops Judith)in search of an archetype sighting
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:43:22 -0400
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              retained.
From:         MS JANELL F ADAIR <TEPS48A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject:      PWP
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-- [ From: Janell F. Adair * EMC.Ver #2.5.1 ] --

Hi All:

  Until now I've been the silent participant in this endeavor, wondering
what I could possibly add to some of the things being written. No more.

 At one point I also felt as though I'd been dropped into the "Twilight
Zone" because I was reading so many things that I basically agree with
and also ones that I'm not so sure I agree with, but for whatever
reasons (either pro or con) have not been verbalizing. I know I'm a slow
starter by just looking at my life, but I also know that once I start it
might take hell or high water to deter me from my course, and even there
I'm not sure that I'll stray. I inherited a stubborn streak from both my
parents which at times has been my best asset and at others my worst
liability.

 Ever since I was a child I've been going against the grain, marching as
it were to the beat of my own drummer, and at times paying a very high
price for that difference, but I've also noticed that when I listen to
that inner spirit I've seen some of my best accomplishments, or at least
the ones I respect the most.

 I still remember in third grade being hit with a ruler across the
knuckles ( by a nun who shall remain nameless) because as she said "I
had the audacity to question what she was teaching."  Oh well, she may
have won the battle because I played along at the time (I didn't like
being hit on the knuckles), but ultimately she lost the war because I've
never failed to question someone else's rhetoric. Having said that I
find myself now asking why did I say it?

 Is it because I'm questioning some of the statements others have made?
I don't think so, because I feel we're all entitled to whatever we want
to think. It may be because I want to add my opinion to some of what's
being said, but then an old ghost comes up, and I hear myself asking,
who cares what you think?  I do and I hope someone else may, but for now
I've got to sit back some more and digest in my own style some of the
things that have been said.

 One quick point though, (for tonight)  I think things may happen by
accident but then what you do or don't do with them can make all the
difference as far as you're concerned.  I too have had some of the
"tingle music" moments and events that HBG refers to so well in her note
..

 Thanks for listening!

 Janell

P.S. to Walter: As a late comer to Psychodrama I too received my
training/education in the modality in an unconventional way, in my case
by first being the Protagonist many, many times to resolve my own
dilemmas.
_______________________________________________________
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Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:07:12 -0500
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From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Re : Turning on Lights -questions
Comments: To: judithb@sbc1.com
In-Reply-To:  <753336286.55438250@sbc1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Hey, Hoony, wanna have some fun? (with acknowledgement that I live in the US

Always. The tendency is toward routine(s), the least resistance and one
sidedness.

***

jb da dresser writes:

>and then what is worthwhile
>collides with self interest and blind spots and filter systems, and then we
>have the pharmacological system of treatment and half (admittedly an
>exaggeration)the female population of america on prosac and kids with ants in
>their pants (wouldn't you if you had to sit and be bored to death) on redolin

redolant my dear, hmmmmm....sweet; although your spell checker is less than
hyper-active about this... :-) But maybe its not so much posivitism or even
treating the obnoxious symptom but a flippin' nice cash cow in a spot where
otherwise the doc is powerless.

But really the worthwhile blind spots are just those that make up the holes
in the cheese of whatever methodology you might encounter within academia
and outside of it.

John Lilly wasn't the first to point out that if you believe something to
be true it might just as well be true: for you. But, the LSD of the time
was a nice reinforcement so his contribution remains primary in my
experience.

On mathematical grounds we can reduce formal correlates to pleasantly
paradoxical states no matter what sociology, or predicate structure your
intellect swims in, cares to swim around in. Wags have suggested this is
fundamentally the ironic and logical contradiction of systems which root
their basics in some imaginative light bulb glowing suddenly on, sure then
all systems and turtles allll the waay down too. ;^)

But soul-making is no less rigorous. What good is feeling if it's not good
at feeling? As above so below...

but this is not the case I'm pointing to:

>so ala the Puritan work ethic if one is hard at work it is by definition
>worthwhiletruthright..sounds like the Frederick Taylor school of work-man
>equals machine equals work work work...

Come on jb! I mean just applying one's self diligently, like good bank
robbers do; doing the path consciously is not undemanding, playing fully is
a dance but it might take practice to get there. Of course entirely
possible to just slip into it, although you're right about the oxygen flow.
<g>

But nothing about machines did I speak of...

Hey, at least some people have a methodology!

***

Somebody said Grace and you don't know how lucky you are -sometimes- <you
gyrrrl> and being ready usually means having worked at
something...rightorwrongly <tee hee>

>anyway the hammering is going on at the "wrong" level...if one is going to
>hammer one must IMO hammer at research methodogyassumptions which is my great
>fun...

whereas my great fun is similarly poised at wondering about causes behind
the causes but I can still do the math! It doesn't go away. getting naked
remains more fun.

I've experienced way too much stuff that shouldn't be able happen, yet
through it all it's the lack of knowledge which remains the problematic for
me ahh IMO and for our little pea scrap of a world and at the same time
reason is a divine attribute obviously worth holding as sacred as innocence
and belief and the 96 other ones.

but opinions aren't the cornerstones of diddlelee and stupidity isn't a
divine attribute either...getting to blissful ignorance can be very hard
work especially if the starting point is dismissing what other people
know...without knowing what it is they know.

And whatever can a starting point be for but to get you to the next one.

***

it's easier to figure out what people don't know and even I laugh out loud
when the hidden agenda slams on the table like some slimy dead fish.

I've always liked your most raw metaphor, Judith, but the guy in me asks
whether if given the choice I'd rather be bad at fucking or afraid to
fuck...

I'd rather be bad at it, (a typical puer...)

HooN da Stephen

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Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:20:06 -0400
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From:         hollyg <hollyg@TIAC.NET>
Subject:      PWP: Turning on Lights, etc...
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Some thoughts about S.Murray's post..

Thank you for taking the time to say that you agree -- and to everyone who
is writing. The feeling of being "heard" is very powerful and reassuring. As
I grow older I remind myself that even disagreement is flattery:  at least
someone is listening!

About your comments:  I particularly like the way you explained the
"freedom" issue on the net.  When I said "no grammer, no publishers...." I
was not implying that one should not use grammer or that grammer was
unnecessary (I think Fritz or HooN said something about this as well) I
meant to say something along the lines of your comments....

no-one berating you or looking
>down on you for the form of it you use IMO. Respecting other people's
>right to be different, to not agree, *to not know*, to not use the same
>conventions etc. - at the same time as everyone using common sense and
>helping to empower everyone else. That's the way it can be if we want
>it to IMO...
>

I highlight *to not know* because this is at the heart of the argument.

My own educational background is an interesting mix of American schooling
experiences (with a year of British boarding school thrown in for good
measure) - public school, boarding school, Jesuit University, Private
University grad school.  I have also worked at a large (huge) state research
university as a staff member (Admin in the Chair's office and, later,
counselor to undergraduates).

I used to be so impressed - almost in awe of academics.  If I could just
paddle fast enough, I could get through and "know" all that I am supposed to
"know."  But as the years passed and I experienced the different academic
configurations, I realized what I needed to "know" seemed to shift from
place to place.  Each place seems to create its own universe.

Which is not to say one cannot not and should not learn a great deal at each
place.  Let's face it -- everyone should read literature, learn math and
science, etc. but only in that it is the intellectual background for
reflecting on our experiences and life.  I remember hearing about a person
who always wrote small comments on pencil in a margin of his books ... to
jot down the running argument with the author.  I think I was in high school
at the time.  Anyway, before I heard that, it had never dawned on me that I
wasn't supposed to simply digest what I read part and parcel.

I am not, however, advocating that "what you feel" replaces educational
content. (A bit of a problem in some American schools right now!)  What I
mean to say is....

dialogue in learning is crucial to the understanding process and here is
why:  Educators are now realizing that the lecture/test method looks great
on paper, but avoids examining how an indivdual uses knowledge.  For
example, after studying electricity for a year, the students in an AP
physics class (high school level) could not build a simple circuit using a
bulb, wire, and battery.  For that matter, something like eight of ten
graduating seniors at a top ranked science-oriented university could not
solve the simple circuit problem either.  It seems as if the students become
so involved in learning the answers to the tests, they do not practice how
to use simple principles creatively.  It is as if they dislearn ingenuity.

Thus the "no grammer" "no publishers" observation is really the observation
that the internet medium provides the freedom to cultivate, rather than
dismiss, ingenuity.
Perhaps this ties into your comment...

>.... But I think the growth of consciousness taking place just now
>is actually quite separate from the internet; that the internet openness
>we are seeing is as a result of something more spiritual. More on that
>another time maybe.

I haven't thought about this very thoroughly, but admit, I am seeing,
hearing this comment (in different forms) around a number of places on the
web.  Hmm.  Oh well....


Thanks again!

HBG

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Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:32:56 -0400
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From:         Sheryl Garner <COpumpkin@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: PWP - Synchronicity

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts about synchronicity...
An image of a tapestry keeps coming to mind, the separate threads weaving
together to create a whole.

I agree with everyone, and especially appreciated your thoughts, HGB, because
I can identify with them so well, re: a feeling of alienation from the more
linear minded, feeling like a flake or freak.   While I have been aware of my
own *freakiness* my whole life, I managed to suppress it from myself and
others for many years, and it wasn't until I first went on line that it
popped out in a huge way...  The learning discussions also seem to weave into
my own tapestry, in that I have had so many *ah ha!* experiences on line,
which have extended into rl (f2f), that I cannot conceive of living one day
anymore without learning something, feeling driven to absorb every lesson
like a sponge.

Steve, your thoughts were profound, I can't even begin to express my parallel
lessons, thoughts, or journey.

At the very least, it seems to me that our common experiences of
synchronicity indicate the human brain must function at a much higher level
than is generally acknowledged, even to ourselves.  And it is scary to
confront that... much easier to stay in a black and white reality... after
all black and white is safe and grounded.  But letting go of the safety of
black and white reality has brought spirituality to me by experiencing the
"ah ha" insights of faith, trust, openness, and acceptance, concepts that
were black and white in my religious upbringing, but having no inner meaning
in my soul.

I want thank you all again for your thoughts on this... it makes being a
freak a little easier <grin>  I also cannot begin to express how clearly I
feel the sincerity of each one of you...  which is in itself affirms
spirituality, love and yes, synchronicity to me.

Sheryl (with a big pumpkin grin)

Hmmm, never thought of the silences as lessons, ah ha!  A new lesson to mull!

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Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:25:45 GMT
Reply-To:     judithb@sbc1.com
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Organization: Business Connects, Inc.
Subject:      Re: Re : Turning on Lights -questions
Content-Type: text

Hoon...a little more fun before the sun goes down
Hoon replies:
<jb da dresser writes:

>and then what is worthwhile
>collides with self interest and blind spots and filter systems, and then we
>have the pharmacological system of treatment and half (admittedly an
>exaggeration)the female population of america on prosac and kids with ants
in
>their pants (wouldn't you if you had to sit and be bored to death) on
redolin

<redolant my dear, hmmmmm....sweet; although your spell checker is less than
hyper-active about this... :-)>
what spell checker:-)

< But maybe its not so much posivitism or even
treating the obnoxious symptom but a flippin' nice cash cow in a spot where
otherwise the doc is powerless.>
ok, so if we work backwards from powerless that leads where? (we know the
backwards from cash cow) to the question maybe "Why powerless"?...that brings
up doctor as all knowing, authority, medicine as a science (as oppossed to an
art), to public perception of western medicine, to the underlying
assumptions, to the doctor knowing medicine is an art, to grey not black and
white, to the body as a machine, to ??? the basis of western medical
knowledge where one could make a case here for cash cow she says smilingly...

<But really the worthwhile blind spots are just those that make up the holes
in the cheese of whatever methodology you might encounter within academia
and outside of it.>
so am I hearing that life is about the holes? and so the doctor who doesn't
really know the source of the hole, but makes an assumption based on the body
of created (read created)knowledge at hand, makes a call based in the
methodology of holes? ;-) I like it.

<John Lilly wasn't the first to point out that if you believe something to
be true it might just as well be true: for you. But, the LSD of the time
was a nice reinforcement so his contribution remains primary in my
experience.>
I think I'm on quicksand here...reminded of my former PhD mentor who evertime
I approached the "what you believe is what is true for you" screamed back at
me 'relativism' and launched into the philosophical lineage and wacked me a
good one in the hole in my knowledge.

<On mathematical grounds we can reduce formal correlates to pleasantly
paradoxical states no matter what sociology, or predicate structure your
intellect swims in, cares to swim around in. Wags have suggested this is
fundamentally the ironic and logical contradiction of systems which root
their basics in some imaginative light bulb glowing suddenly on, sure then
all systems and turtles allll the waay down too. ;^)>
yep yep so is this why the doctor feels powerless (paradocically). Of course
my math is greatly suspect but my turtles are nicely piled...my grand
assumption when entering the epistemological fray is that the reason some
academics hold onto their theories with such tenancity is that they secretly
know there is a logical contradiction but cannot speak of it because the
research deck will come tumbling down...if not the grant money...

<But soul-making is no less rigorous. What good is feeling if it's not good
at feeling? As above so below...>
dynamic reciprocity comes to my turtle mind...

<but this is not the case I'm pointing to:

>so ala the Puritan work ethic if one is hard at work it is by definition
>worthwhiletruthright..sounds like the Frederick Taylor school of work-man
>equals machine equals work work work...

Come on jb! I mean just applying one's self diligently, like good bank
robbers do; doing the path consciously is not undemanding, playing fully is
a dance but it might take practice to get there. Of course entirely
possible to just slip into it, although you're right about the oxygen flow.
<g>

But nothing about machines did I speak of...>
well, if you're gonna be a bank robber, then be the best bank robber you can
be...ok so I'll try to go back to working hard...I midreadunderstood your
comment about people working hard at their work...admittedly one of my
turtles fell off the pile because it sounded like because they are working
hard at working their knowledge this was justification for the value of the
knowledge created...sorry. I have great admiration for "doing the path
consciously...playing fully is a dance..." my quibble is when the system says
there is only one dance and ya gotta dance it because it is the dance we've
been doing, in fact the dance the system is based on and you can't bring your
turtles to the dance...

<Hey, at least some people have a methodology!>
you are absolutely correct IMHO, which is the subject of my soapbox oratory
most of the time...a game comes to mind "create your methodogy

***

<Somebody said Grace and you don't know how lucky you are -sometimes- <you
gyrrrl> and being ready usually means having worked at
something...rightorwrongly <tee hee>> yep...my teeny quibble is the leap from
working to rightorwrong...it's work and then I fall into my "let the ends be
the means and the means the end."


<>anyway the hammering is going on at the "wrong" level...if one is going to
>hammer one must IMO hammer at research methodogyassumptions which is my
great
>fun...

whereas my great fun is similarly poised at wondering about causes behind
the causes but I can still do the math! It doesn't go away. getting naked
remains more fun.>
 you certainly know how to get to the "point"...so far my fun has been
limited to if not by my methodology...naked...now there's a thought, put all
the academics in a room naked AND naked...great fun to imagine the new game

<I've experienced way too much stuff that shouldn't be able happen, yet
through it all it's the lack of knowledge which remains the problematic for
me ahh IMO and for our little pea scrap of a world and at the same time
reason is a divine attribute obviously worth holding as sacred as innocence
and belief and the 96 other ones.>
ah sweet mystery of life...well there's reason and then there's reason and
the reason behind the reasoning and the basic assumption behind western
mainstream knowledge creation which by definition (and separation) places the
sacred "over there"...which gets us back to where the stake got placed way
back and why there aren't many good turtle pilers up andor down in academia.

<but opinions aren't the cornerstones of diddlelee and stupidity isn't a
divine attribute either...getting to blissful ignorance can be very hard
work especially if the starting point is dismissing what other people
know...without knowing what it is they know.>
I believe there is something about controlling variables <g> and in my
experience I have spent most of my life variably

<And whatever can a starting point be for but to get you to the next one.>
well, I've gone on too long but "starting point" is exactly the point...

***

<it's easier to figure out what people don't know and even I laugh out loud
when the hidden agenda slams on the table like some slimy dead fish.> isn't
there a lament "Life's just one hidden agenda after another"

<I've always liked your most raw metaphor, Judith, but the guy in me asks
whether if given the choice I'd rather be bad at fucking or afraid to
fuck...I'd rather be bad at it, (a typical puer...)> there's that word
again...well, you know I'm a Tom Robbins fan, the king of metaphor...and god
knows I'm not afraid to fuck given opportunity...but then life is life.
Thanks, Stephen
had a great time...hope it was good for you:-)
Judith in search of a f....methodology

--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:50:19 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      PWP: A quick note about PWP process. . . .

A quick note about PWP process. . . .

I have updated the page on the web a little and would welcome
some comments as to how to proceed, suggestions for links, and
also for *topics* . . .  I thought we could leave *themes* for
later.

I notice that the PWP and the Psyber-L conversation are melding,
which is fine . . . so long as the PWP can retain its focus!!


~~~

Such simple thought, but look how they relate to very questions
we are discussing!  What sort of education envioronment is this?
Now is that synchronicity?  I am used to calling it parallel
process . . .


Soon,

Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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Date:         Sun, 22 Sep 1996 16:59:52 EDT
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From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      PWP:Education

HBG wrote on Sept 19th:

>I am not an academic anarchist ...  or wish to imply that Professors do not
have the right to organize lectures to cover material succintly.  HOWEVER
(caps) anyone who has had the experience of being muffled and/or silenced or
told "you are wrong" "you just don't know enough to think for yourself"
knows what it's like -- it's the psychology of the "occupied mind" (just
like an "occupied country" in a war.)  You go along for survival, you put up
and shut up, but you are never really convinced.  The truth never really
goes away.<

Giving a class, naturally, requires a certain structure in the material to be
delivered. This structure is determined by the beliefs and convictions of the
Professor. (S)He tries to project his/her point of view in the class room. If
(s)he is prudent enough, (s)he will also refer to schools of thought different
from his/her points of view. The student on one hand has to acquire certain
facts, increasing his/her base of knowledge, on the other hand (s)he has to
develop the faculty of critically assessing the information presented to
him/her. If you feel occupied as an *occupied country* this faculty needs to
be stimulated. If *the truth never goes away* you are on the right track.
Progress in cognition and perception comes from these processes.

On Sept. 16th
we read from HBG:
>        1.  The way in which relevant information is shared online.  The
most successful transmission of information, I find, is "anecdotal."  I got
a lot of flack for this in class (what is anecdotal, can it be trusted, is
this really learning, etc...) but I stick to my guns.<
>        2.  I agree with you about this forum being a "learning
environment."  Indeed, I think "rl" groups allows for a more thoughtful
practice of anecdote exchange  -- the basis true "learning."<

There was some discussion before and after these lines about the value of
anectdotal information in the learning process. Anectdotes have a great value
in learning languages because the information is tied to circumstances which
makes it easier to remember. Everything depends on the basis of grammar and
vocabulary; without these, children only can make some sense out of the
situation, a kind of natural gift. In science, philosophy and the humanities
it is the process of abstraction from anecdotal evidence which constitutes
advance and progress in understanding. Anectdotal evidence are the examples to
fortify or to shake a given theoretical construction; but without the process
of verification or falsification of theoretical concepts anectdotal
information represents a collection of non-related stories which at best leads
to a kind of practical intelligence (which may be very useful in mastering
day-to-day problems). But the goals of education are different.

Walter: I think that the problem of education - goals, methods, measurement of
success and achievement - especially with respect to on-line education are a
very suitable topic for PWP.

Reagrds to all, FRITZ

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Date:         Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:16:58 -0700
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From:         Sieur de Cyberie <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Re-enchanting your virtual soul
Subject:      Re: PWP:Education
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To all Psyberians,

        The discussion about education is interesting and I think
critical if we want to move away from pre-conceived notions.  As an
educator myself (21 years in the business) I can speak from that side of
the fence; as a life-long student (still attending classes and working
towards unspecified goals I can also speak with feeling from the opposite
side of the fence.  Rather than do either, I would like to look at
learning - specifically learning theory - which can be of some use to
those who find themselves in a situation of counselling and delivery of
therapy to clients.

        I have a particular interest in the constructivist approach to
learning in which an individual learns through creation of knowledge
(re-creating existing knowledge within a personalised context).
Communication skills/knowledge is built using the contextual environment
and the situation present during dialogue within the individuals
conversing. These people base their understandings upon their perceptions
not only of spoken words, but upon the previous knowledge and the myriad
forms of non-verbal factors present in all communications.  Each party
_constructs_ their resultant knowledge.  This is what happens within the
classroom which of course removes much of the supposed power of the
educator over the education that the learner achieves.

        Computer-mediated communication (CMC) is an excellent tool for
opening communication channels as many of the distractors (which often
contradict the intended _real_ message) are eliminated.  Many have talked
here in the past of the _democratic_ nature of CMC in which barriers to
communication such as age, colour, gender (at times), appearance, and
social status are for all purposes absent.  Here in cyberspace
(especially here in Psyberia) this allows for the empowerment of each
individual through the _voice_ they are able take as their own.

        This empowerment allows each to work through _fantasies_ of self
(I would rather believe these to be repressed aspects of self that are
real not fantasy) in a safe environment.  This works for both counsellor
and for counselled, for learner and teacher. I am looking forward to the
PWP event which promises a good look at some of these ideas.

Robert de Cyberie

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Date:         Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:51:07 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Test
In-Reply-To:  <3248c90e.598607792@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz>

Hi, someone mentioned in private email that it was taking a long
time to get the return copy of posts to the list.  I noticed
something like this today.  Let me know in private mail if you
have noticed anything like this.


walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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Date:         Wed, 25 Sep 1996 05:58:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP:education, relal life
In-Reply-To:  <960916224716_101632.3701_BHG70-1@CompuServe.COM>

FRITZ and All,

(A response I began days ago, but will send now . . . even though
somewhat incomplete. . . )

> Hello to all of you, it took me some time to figure out how the whole set-up
> is supposed to operate. I guess, I got it now.

Of course there is no set way.  I have done some more work on the
web page, and am now looking for feedback and suggestions as to
exactly how we do this.  There is a lot of scope, even sticking
to the guidelines in the Original Invitation.

> Freud's talking cure, it is based on the idea that the person's attempt to
> articulate his/her problems creates an awareness of these problems in the
> conscious domain which triggers processes of remedy and healing. The listener
> interact mainly by non-verbal communications. The important fact seems to me
> that processes within the person itself are stimulated.

In psychotherapy in the traditions that I work in with we are
sometimes in the role of providing those qualities of listening
and stability etc. that were missing in the past, so that the
person can learn them now.  This becomes complex as they project
qualities onto the therapist.  The therapist can take a more
active part than a "blank slate" in this.  Silence is "heard" and
it is too much to expect that the client can sort projections out
in silence alone.


> The same is the aim of
> education. Information, belonging and listening are just one side of the coin
> (named education). The other side consists of the arts of information
> processing, analysis and synthesis, and judgement.

How do we best acquire those skills?  That seems to be an
important question on our agenda.  A matrix:


           Formal Setting      Free flowing setting

On line


f2f


(imagine the four boxes there)  Each box has its place.




All for now . . .




Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:57:16 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      PWP

Hi to all Psyberians and Walter:

> Hello to all of you, it took me some time to figure out how the whole set-up
> is supposed to operate. I guess, I got it now.(FRITZ)<

*Of course there is no set way.  I have done some more work on the
web page, and am now looking for feedback and suggestions as to
exactly how we do this.  There is a lot of scope, even sticking
to the guidelines in the Original Invitation.(Walter)*

Actually, I was referring to the technical side. I thought we were supposed to
write something on the WEB-page!
From the side of the PWP I understand, now, that the WEB-scribe is putting on
the WEB-pages what he considers to fit the project. Walter acts as an editor.
This process involves selection since the material comming in has to be
filtered in order to make some coherent sense on the WEB-pages. It could not
be just a listing with hyperlinks. There is an equivalent in the written
record of scientific conferences (Proceedings) where the discussion of each
paper is recorded, edited, and added as a report following the paper. It is
sometimes very useful to read the comments which were made. How does this
translate into the PWP ? I don't know, yet. Chit-chat and fragments of
discussions on a variety of subjects do not lend themselves suitable for such
an edeavour. I think we have to agree on a topic/theme and present
introductory statements describing our points of view. The last post of Robert
was kind of this sort.
I would strongly endorse something related to education and the internet.
Discussion of education is an on-going process and much has been said and
published. Internet is new and here we could break new ground.

That all for now,
REGARDS, FRITZ

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Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:23:20 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <COpumpkin@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: PWP:Education

Hey all Psyber minds...
First, I want to see if anyone else gets this.. I have been having problems
not only getting to the web sites with this message:

USER IDENTIFICATION FAILED
Sorry but your screen name could not be validated by the
web software. Please try again in a few minutes.

In addition my own computer has turned on me since I added a printer and
mouse.  The gremlins/bugs/daemons seem to have taken me on, LOL.

I thought Robert's thoughts were great...  crucial, I'm finding more and more
is a willingness of each individual, a mutuality, to continue communication,
because the misunderstandings in cyber space have a different character than
those in f2f, and I also think there is increased potential for
misunderstandings.  For that reason I believe that a firm committment to
understanding each other is essential for learning and communication to take
place.

Now a personal request... could you all email me that you got this, and let
me know if I have won a battle against the daemons???  <grin>

Thanks
Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:45:50 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP: Turning on Lights, etc...
In-Reply-To:  <199609201520.LAA01915@zork.tiac.net>

HBG, PWP, and those in the Psyber-L too,

How can such list of acronyms look so personal and warm!

I have been very absorbed in my off line life.  And why not!  I
feel 100% committed to my Psybernet work, and at the same time I
do it in addition to a full life, and thus want to take advantage
of the asynchronicty here when I have been caught in the
immediate and unexpected of the non-asynchronous.

I hope that my relative absence in the last week, has not been
seen in this or that personal way . . . but if it has it's been
all projection as I have been elsewhere.  I am only now beginning
to look carefully at the posts.

I am keen to do my web scribing number, and do want some more
dialogue around that . . . however I will just get more involved
first, by responsing to things as they strike me.


> I am not, however, advocating that "what you feel" replaces educational
> content. (A bit of a problem in some American schools right now!)  What I
> mean to say is....
>
> dialogue in learning is crucial to the understanding process and here is
> why: . . .


I feel drawn to what you say here Holly,  and as I started to say
in the post with the matrix, I think there is a place for all all
types of learning.  I am interested in thinking about this one .
. .  the Psybernet Mailing List . . . the PWP.

We are in an learning situation here, and in one where there is
nothing but the notes in the margins . . . there is no set text
of any sort.  We are not simply going on our "feelings" . . .
experience is more than feeling . . . it includes "seeing",
"knowing" and thinking.  I put those first two in quotes as the
seeing is not the seeing of the screen, it is the seeing of the
actual / virtual gathering, its past future present phenomenon.
Just as looking at the book, and the pages is not to see life in
the novel, the drama, the plot, they are also experienced in the
virtual.

I can imagine this being something on our CV, "participant in the
Psybernet ~ Web Project, PWP 1996".  This will give us a lot of
"knowing"  (whatever the outcome really).


~~~

I am in the process of planning a psychotherapy training course
for next year.  It will not be a psychodrama course per se, but
one of the features of psychodrama training that will be
incorporated is the learning through experiencing the methods,
not talking "about" them.

Something I guess we are in the midst of here . . . moving
towards . . .


The technical problems that are being experienced by some of us,
I think are well dealt with here, in that same sense of learning
by doing.. . .

> Educators are now realizing that the lecture/test method looks great
> on paper, but avoids examining how an indivdual uses knowledge.  For
> example, after studying electricity for a year, the students in an AP
> physics class (high school level) could not build a simple circuit using a
> bulb, wire, and battery.

Well with a bit of luck well be experts at using this medium.
While it is not our main focus, it is not separate from the main
work.  To *be here fully* one needs to be a bit of a whiz with a
mouse.

All for now on this post,


Warm wishes,

Walter.





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:12:03 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP:Education
In-Reply-To:  <960922205952_101632.3701_BHG59-1@CompuServe.COM>

Fritz

> Anectdotal evidence are the examples to
> fortify or to shake a given theoretical construction; but without the process
> of verification or falsification of theoretical concepts anectdotal
> information represents a collection of non-related stories which at best leads
> to a kind of practical intelligence (which may be very useful in mastering
> day-to-day problems). But the goals of education are different.


Hmm, are we tapping into the age old training / education
distinction?

On my mind today as it happens, with calling the psychotherapy
course a *training* course, when I really think it is something
we can't train people in!  perhaps I'll call it Psychotherapy
Education.

We do seem to be coming from some different angles though, in
what I think is a valuable *dialogue*.  The areas where I think
tests and training comes into its own the methods become more
formal and less of a dialogue, and less anecdotal . . . the
driving test being a good example.

> Walter: I think that the problem of education - goals, methods, measurement of
> success and achievement - especially with respect to on-line education are a
> very suitable topic for PWP.

It would seem so . . . it has caught the attention of our group,
and that is what I am looking for in my "webscribe" role . ..  I
also see that this is related to the question of "individuality"
being able to be who one is, even if different, to be a *freak*.
And there is the broad question of spirituality / synchronicity
which is important.

All is within the scope of the project, with parameters defined
by the Psybernet Mailing List description.  I would like to see
us relate education to psyche, and the net.



Walter,
Home late after "relaxing" at the movies -- badly bored by
"Strange Days".  Earlier in the week, however delighted by
"Secrets and Lies".

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 06:57:15 -0700
Reply-To:     aigle@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sieur de Cyberie <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Re-enchanting your virtual soul
Subject:      Re: PWP:Education
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Sheryl and fello Psyberians,

> First, I want to see if anyone else gets this..

        Reception was successful!  This is one of the great things about CMC,
the ability to _echo_ the speaker.  This drawing from the words of the
speaker serves as a visible proof of active listening.  The speaker
finds affirmation in being heard rather than disquiet of the silence
from non-response.

> I'm finding more and more is a willingness of each individual, a
> mutuality, to continue communication, because the misunderstandings in
> cyber space have a different character than those in f2f, and I also
> think there is increased potential for misunderstandings.

        Exactly!  We do seem to be willing to keep listening here (for the most
part) when we become part of the dialogue process.  Obviously, there are
many instances of mis-communication in these dialogues due in part to
the absence of f2f contact.  Knowing that we are missing this element
within our dialogues, we become a little more patient as we use active
listening to verify our thoughts on what is being said here.

> I believe that a firm committment to understanding each other is
> essential for learning and communication to take place.

        And, I agree.  This committment to understanding each other through
dialogue is what education is all about.  As educators we need to
realise that the learner is building a belief value system through the
engagement in dialogue, an idea therapists and counsellors seem more
readily to understand in their roles as they try to help their clients
re-construct disfunctional elements through dialogue.

leaving you and returning to a silent mode of listening

Robert de Cyberie

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:49:50 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         hollyg <hollyg@TIAC.NET>
Subject:      PWP: RL, Synchronicity, and ....
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

a personal story.

Just thought I'd share this experience I had during my inlaws visit.

Let me preface this by saying I like my inlaws and enjoy their company.
They are, however, are a bit conservative, southern, and have a polite way
of ignoring any topic that simply does not fit with their view of the world
(of me they would say I was a bit liberal, a Yankee, and have an indelicate
way of bringing up uncomfortable topics!)  We manage, nonetheless.

In their last visit, I tried to explain some of the thoughts I have about
dreams, and the psyche, about past experiences and the effects of the past
on how we act in the present.  About dreaming, I tried to relate how
important dreaming always has been in my life, that my mother was the same
way, and how my daughter is beginning to show signs of the same tendancies
(waking up at night, describing dreams to me, talking about dream friends...)

Their response was that I was probably creating this "problem" in my child
by talking about the fact that I dream.  My father-in-law in particular
argued that he never dreams.... he was very very dismissive.

I let the conversation pass, although I began to doubt myself.  The next
night, out to dinner, we began talking about distant relatives of mine (my
inlaws have never met them but have heard of them.)  There is a long history
of family problems in this distant side of my family and while I am cordial,
I have given up trying to contact the distant relatives only to ... have the
same old family tape play over and over.  (Years of fights with my parents,
now deceased, holidays ruined as a child, etc etc).  So I tried to,
casually, explain that I haven't persued correspondence because ... and
tried to waffle through an explanation.  My father-in-law smiled a bit and
then said...

"Well Holly, you know, maybe what you think is there, well maybe it didn't
happen.  Maybe you just dreamed it.  You know what you said...."

My first response ("walk all over me" training here) is to find some way to
make what he said more palatable.  But before I could even think, I turned
to him and said

How dare you.  Don't you ever tell me what did or did not happen.  You
weren't there.  You don't know.  It happened.  Believe me.  I lived it.

I was furious.  But the fall out of the moment took a curious turn.
Imagine:  daughter-in-law in her thirties yelling at a distinguished
looking, slightly tanked, sixty plus gentleman in a restaurant.  Even I was
doubting myself.  My mother-in-law thought I was crazy.  My father-in-law
barely spoke to me afterwards.  The visit, for which I had worked very hard,
was suddenly stiff and uncomfortable.

Thank God my husband was reassuring (he finally had a taste of these distant
relatives two years ago and knows I wan't making it up).

This doesn't really fit in with education per se, but it was (synchronicity)
an obvious example of what I was talking about in my posts.  About life
experience being dismissed and how easy it is to let them be dismissed.
Several years ago, I probably would have agreed with him at the restaurant
table saying, "perhaps you are right..."  as the many times I have heard
things in lecture and let the questions slip by as well.

**********In a classroom situation, the question becomes larger.  Not only
do we need to look at how the student should respond (obviously not yelling)
but also how the teacher should listen and incorporate the student experience.

OK, I'm trying to fudge this anecdote into the larger picture.  But somehow
it all fits....


HBG

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:32:57 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP
In-Reply-To:  <960926175716_101632.3701_BHG90-1@CompuServe.COM>

FRITZ, and all!

> I thought we were supposed to
> write something on the WEB-page!

Confusing, I know, but I think you have got it now.

> I understand, now, that the WEB-scribe is putting on
> the WEB-pages what he considers to fit the project.
> Walter acts as an editor.

That is right.  I would like lots of input as to what all of us
"consider to fit the project", editing of a word here or there,
or suggestions how to organise the whole "performance".  I would
like to have the group's trust, of course, to make sense of the
perhaps conflicting and more chatty and raw data in the group, on
the email list.

So we work together on the sculpture, each of us adding something
here, removing something there . . . when it comes to
manipulating the web files, I am your scribe, you web avatar . .
. one with a mind of his own!

> This process involves selection since the material comming in has to be
> filtered in order to make some coherent sense on the WEB-pages. It could
> not be just a listing with hyperlinks.

I am hoping that this collaborative human filtering / editing /
web scribing will create something aesthetic, and worthy of
preservation, not just an archive for the record, but something
of a media event.  For all my hopes I must say, I do not yet how
to proceed . . . as I read the posts with interest, I am awaiting
the *exacting* inspiration.

It is this section I am focussing on, copied from the web site,
please a fixed font of 9 or 10 points to view this email, or it
will look like a mess:

http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/project.htm#pt

~~~~

Psybernet ~ Web Project


People and Topics

(Step Two & Three of the Project)

People:                                        Topics:


                    Start with a person
                        or a topic
Walter                                      Synchronicity
                    & explore the links
Pixy                between                 Education
                    people and people
FRITZ               people and topics       Topic 3
                    topics and topics.
Sheryl

HooN


{etc}

~~~~

I am not happy with the "Topic" Names I have there as I think we
need to somehow have sub topics, with headings that specify the
various ideas and the tensions between them, linked to the
People.

~~~~

> I think we have to agree on a topic/theme and present
> introductory statements describing our points of view. The last post of Robert
> was kind of this sort.

This is good Fritz, I will look to Roberts post and begin to use
it as an overview.

As for agreement . . .  I think that comes in the next step, step
4 . . .

|    4.  From complexity to simplicity.
|    Using the web to "see" the group we will define
|    one main task, perhaps more, that  satisfies,
|    combines, integrates, the various interests and
|    themes.  We name our  project.  Exactly how this
|    is done is to be discovered.

> I would strongly endorse something related to education and the internet.
> Discussion of education is an on-going process and much has been said and
> published. Internet is new and here we could break new ground.

Of course it now *must* include education . . . I think it will
be good though, to let our Step 2 and 3 continue as we hear more
introductions, Pixy is with us and has yet to make an
introduction, we can let more themes emerge, as we follow our
interests.


Warm wishes,

Walter.



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:36:40 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Communication, Synchronicity etc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Hi folks,

Been enjoying the further posts;

 Sheryl,

 You got machine problems too?

 Seem to be infectious. A friend crashed their hard drive, & I nearly
 fried my soundcard. Thankfully nothing was lost we cant handle.

 Thanks for the enthusiastic comments on my posts too, appreciated.

Let me reply to another button of mine you pushed - <G>

>
> I thought Robert's thoughts were great...  crucial, I'm finding more and more
> is a willingness of each individual, a mutuality, to continue communication,

YES! that rings a real bell with me. Willingness to speak to people from
the heart and value that communication and catalysis enough to risk
people not agreeing, criticising, shouting us down. Confidence that we
have things to say worth saying and worth standing up for. And this
too is infectious; as the Celestine prophecy insight says,

'when we see the good in everyone we meet we lift others into their
wisest self and increase the chances of hearing a synchronistic message'.
Love catalyses, heals, uplifts and nurtures people's insight, confidence
and understanding.

There's really no need for sarcasm, malice, caustic wit or ridicule in
any kind of education. It simply doesnt work. Love, compassion, and
taking people in good humor & good faith do work... and it's very
pleasant to find so many charming, friendly people on the net personifying
those qualities.


 BTW Sheryl, Could you post your e-mail address, the reply option replies
 to Psybernet not to you personally;

 ---

 Holly, I enjoyed your story about the talk with your relatives; it
 is very relevant to my own experience of relying on and trusting my
 own rl knowledge rather than what someone else is telling me.

 I have a long article in this vein myself, about how I achieved
 my 'optimum health state' through hypnosis and then found a description
 of it in a book on SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder-  labelling
 it as 'mania' and recommending tranquillisers! I had the same kind of
 shock reaction as you did to your father-in-law <G>. And decided
 also to write down the story and use it as an example -  some
 'beyond reasonable doubt' anecdotal proof - of my heart-knowing and
 rl evidence of this.

 I'll post it here.

 I'll also post another long article I wrote in reply to Wilbur a
 few months ago on the NLP list; Dug this one out by 'accident'
 a couple of days ago and realised it sums up a lot of my opinions
 on the education / anecdotes / rl stuff.


 Walter, Robert & everyone:
 I've written another humungusly long article on anecdotes,
 synchronicity & stuff -1400 linesworth - it's not finished yet &
 I may stick it on my web page rather than mailbomb everyone, anyone
 who wants it raw can mail me for a copy though so long as they promise
 not to flame me for it.<G>


Yours with synchronistically -induced smoke coming out of the ears, <smile>

Steve Murray

grkinfo2@udcf.gla.ac.uk
www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html
Enclosed articles:

Jeffries ideas for nice people [excerpt],
Education: 'Attention Deficit Disorder'


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:30:48 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject:      Optimum Health / SAD anecdote
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 This is my anecdote about optimum health / Seasonal Affective Disorder.
 Writing this up was my way of coping with the clash between my
 rl, heart-knowing of the truth, validity and power of my
 'optimum health state' herein described, and the description of it
 as a disease (!) and  recommending tranquillisers. This clash of my
 personal truth and heart-knowing with the cold,  'cleverness
 without wisdom' assessment of my health was what finally shattered my
 faith in science, in medicine and academia. [the system, not the people]

 Again, I think this anecdotal way of imparting this information is very
 empowering in the same way as Holly's anecdote about her relatives; since
 those who resonate with Holly's situation and my own will get the
 heart-knowing from this, and those who  -and that is their right and
 I do respect that - do not take the same path in believing this stuff
 can see it as just more anecdotal evidence without basis in their own
 value-systems.

 Enjoy,

 Steve Murray

 -----
In the hypnotherapy course I did  ethical and professional behaviour had
featured highly. but nothing was said about the emotion of love under
trance and references to affecting it hypnotically were made only by
inferring that this and a range of other ideas were things which no
scrupulous therapist would do with a client. I have a great deal of
respect for my teacher and found the course superb, but long having had
a hearty contempt for the real motives and truths behind such
taboos, I set about thinking about whether using self-hypnosis to alter
the effect of romantic involvement on my subconscious mind and
'immune system' would be 'ethically sound', feasible and immediately
practically applicable. I came to the following conclusions:-

- It is perfectly ethical to use self-hypnosis to address one's OWN
romantic feelings; all the taboos and no-no's surrounding love and such
emotions in therapy are from a purely professional standpoint. One can
hardly end up in a compromising situation with oneself!

- With the 'helper' self-hypnosis program I had an immediately
practically applicable means to hypnotise myself and implant suggestions
to effect whatever changes I wanted, were I to decide they were feasible.
- Being somnambulistic, I was able to get into a deep trance with the
program very easily and the relaxing power of it quickly had me hooked.

- The feasibility was the difficult bit. Could I  through hypnosis
overturn the power of the romantic instinct and raise my immune system
despite my woeful state? Could I overpower the hugely negative and
depressing feelings which were weighing my down? I came to the conclusion
that I could not.

- However, I then had a brainwave. One of my favourite films is 'The
Princess Bride', a film which tells a fairy tale the way it really might
have been rather than spouting the usual 'Pollyanna crap' as Ross would
put it . Long cynical about love and relationships, I had thought before
watching this that true love was an illusion, a lie, a fool's castle made
of sand. After seeing it I changed my mind and conjectured that 'true
love' was possible, but just not very likely and certainly not very
likely to happen to me. In the film, the bad guy has a
line that goes "You truly love each other. And so you might have been
truly happy; Not one couple in a century has that chance, no matter what
the story books say. "

I think this is true, actually; I think true love IS a real phenomenon,
but that it doesnt happen very often and certainly wasnt going to happen
to me had I maintained my previous thought patterns.

Anyway, after thinking about this and realising that it WAS possible for
me to feel real deep true love, I thought to myself 'Right - if I'm going
to have a go at this I'm going to have to go for the jugular first time.
These badfeelings are deep, strong and they're not going to entertain a
meagre attempt to dislodge them. I'm going to have to go for the most
powerful suggestions I can think of'.

Now, had I not encountered Ross's evidence, I would likely not
have been sufficiently sure that doing this was ethically sound; my old
picture of romantic relationships was a stifled, chronic nice-guy
syndrome sham which I had convinced myself was the truth and the only way
things could be to make myself feel better as I wallowed in my self-pity,
and I actively wanted any supposed way out of my depressive rut to be
unethical so that I could jealously condemn anyone who threatened my
'It's not my fault' affirmation as being immoral or unethical. It took a
lot to pull me out of that self-perpetuating rut, as I described in my
recent 'Love Changes Everything' article, and without the cold hard facts
nailed down by Ross I dont think I would have made it.

However, make it I did - I told myself under deep trance that:-

- I am deeply in love
- I am deeply in love with my ideal girlfriend, modelled on fantasies of
yesteryear
- that she loves me back the same
- that it is permanent, reciprocated, eternal
- that we love each other to the core, nothing hidden, and that nothing
will ever change that
- that she is gorgeous, beautiful, witty, charming, simply wonderful; and
that she thinks the same of me
- that I will go deeper and deeper in love, and will feel it all the
time, awake and asleep, in trance and out of it
- that my immune system will keep rising and rising
- that nothing can hurt my love; that negative thoughts will dissipate
and not get through; that even if I think negative thoughts they will
have no effect
- that I will always be in deep true love
- a post-hypnotic suggestion linked to her name which brings the wave
of love I felt at the height of the trance; I use this in trance as well
to bootstrap with, and to cause hugely positive mental shifts in any
circumstance.
- a post-hypnotic suggestion to remove the 'broken record' negative
thought trap whereby one sometimes will not stop thinking about something
negative.
Using this usually dissipates the negative thought-train in seconds:
'peace'
- a bootstrap post hypnotic suggstion to bring me down into trance
rapidly-
' back down now'.  Used multiple times it is very effective.

When I came out of the trance, I felt *wonderful*. Jumping with energy,
thinking three times faster than before and just somehow knowing the
answers to many things which had previously perplexed me. Playing the
piano with six finger chords where I had before struggled to get the
melody right; Holding forth in company and conversation where before I
shied away and did not enjoy such interaction; nonplussing people with my
new-found insight and exhibiting all the symptoms described below as my
optimum health state.

SHEER OVERWHELMING POWER
-hugely raised immune system
-thinking 3 or more times faster than normal
-higher level understanding of everything; ability to see the big
picture.
-jumping with energy
-hugely greater physical control, agility, poise
-hugely greater control over tone and articulation of voice
-huge shift in body language [speed, precision, assertiveness]
-shift in physical appearance, to do with 'all sorted and satisfied' look
-huge difference in ease of smiling and laughing
-being generally 'happy' all the time
-ability to make and nail down paradigm shifts.

COMBINATORIAL PROOF
Ever heard of SAD or Seasonal Affective Disorder? Well I had... and
it sounded as though I might have it, when I read the book about a
year back.It mentioned states of elation and depression, and I shall
quote directly from the description of the mania state:-

[Winter Depression by Angela Smythe: Chapter 14, Spring Fever.
Page entitled Recognise the symptoms of mania:-
You feel full of energy, confidence and new ideas, you feel you could
take on the world.

You talk fast, holding forth in company, you make jokes and are witty.

You rush about doing things, you start many projects but dont finish
any of them.

You feel irritated by anyone who does not keep up or who tries to slow
you down

You are disinhibited; you say things which may be embarassing or
hurtful to others without thinking.

You have grandiose ideas about yourself and your abilities

You form new relationships with people you wouldnt normally get on
with.

You look for sexual excitement, a new partner or an affair.

You go to bed late, and wake early.

You dont eat much.

You spend lots of money, regardless of whether you can afford it.
end of quoted passage]

And this is supposed to be a disease????? I read this page with
amusement at first which turned to disbelief when I realised what had
happened, which revelation I have now managed to nail down beyond
reasonable doubt. This isnt describing mania at all, or if it is then
'mania in this caseis in fact just good old optimum health, rearing it's
head in response tosunlight stimulation of the immune system,
subconscious quality & perhaps other causes. There's a presupposed
theme of negativity in the descriptions above - see how I would
describe them in myself, bearing in mind that I'm like this all the time
due to being able to produce the same state of high subconscious
quality and raised immune system:-

You feel full of energy, confidence and new ideas, you feel you could
take on the world. -  Well yes... you do have lots of energy, you do get
the confidence which you ought to have and yes you CAN take on the
world.

You talk fast, holding forth in company, you make jokes and are
witty.

Thinking at least 3 times faster than before IMO, and being able
to come up with jokes accordingly since you have time to think in the
pauses of conversation. Since you can check and refine what you say a
couple of times before saying it and still appear to be replying
spontaneously, you seem sophisticated and witty when you are just
thinking faster than your conversation partner. But this is one of these
unfair uses of the word 'just' - thinking a little faster than the other
makes a huge difference since you effectively control the conversation
and get all the benefit out of it; since we are usually all just waiting
for our chance to speak anyway IMO, this allows us to actually
consider what the other person says [even better if you have a personal
stereo recorder] as well as getting our two penniesworth in. And if we
feel like making jokes, not only do we have time to construct them
before appearing to come out with them spontaneously - which is IMO
crucial -but we can understand why they are actually funny in the first
place by having time for combinatorial thought as well.

You rush about doing things, you start many projects but dont finish
any of them.

Well yes, if you have a useless filing system - because
you come up with lots of deep realisations and fundamental ideas
which could change your life and bootstrap the good feelings, but
which are stifled and forgotten by our rigid sequential habits, terrible
abuse of our brains and memories and the hugely limiting straight
jackets of social quality, disqualification* and all the other ambushes
which prevent paradigm shifts being made. I would be very surprised
indeed if I managed to finish a project without it spawning new and
larger ones in the process these days.

You feel irritated by anyone who does not keep up or who tries to
slow you down

Again, yes- except what Smythe fails to mention is
that this includes almost everyone, and that people will tend to do
almost anything to slow you down or avoid acknowledging that you're
better than 'normal' at what you're doing. That Le Chatelier's
principle of equilibrium - that the system will shift to negate the
effect of any change in balance - applies very well to any attempt at
social recognition, and that the truth of whether or not someone really
is thinking faster and feeling better is usually the last thing
considered.

In fact, it's more than likely IMO that people will say you're suffering
from mania! And they're right, of course...  it's just that it's the
negative facial expressions, tone's of voice and social pressure are the
overriding factor, when in fact in the cold light of day if this effect
is 'just' 'mania', then 'mania' is the best thing since sliced bread IMO.

"You are disinhibited; you say things which may be embarassing or
hurtful to others without thinking."

 Hmmm... maybe, yes- but
mostly as a symptom of annoyance from the realisation that one's
newfound abilities are neither acknowledged nor welcome. And it
is entirely likely that these 'embarassing' or 'hurtful' statements
are symptomatic of a naive attempt at being honest-the greatest
sin against political correctness of them all.

You have grandiose ideas about yourself and your abilities;

They're
only grandiose if they're pie-in-the-sky and wishful thinking.  Usually
they're actually less grand than just the truth about one's full
potential IMO -but because people will do almost anything to stop someone
from wising up and developing their skills anyway, this is a self-
fulfilling prophecy; I guess the ideas are 'grandiose' if one is naive
enough to think that one will be given a fair hearing and chance to
develop one's skills.

You form new relationships with people you wouldnt normally get
on with. Yes, because you 'qualify' in a lot more people's eyes - your
new abilities are attractive and useful. Similarly people who would
have threatened you before are much easier to get on with since one
bypasses the disqualification barrier.

You look for sexual excitement, a new partner or an affair. No
comment!

You go to bed late, and wake early. Yes, because you have more
energy & dont need so much sleep.

You dont eat much."I dont seem to compulsively eat as much - I dont
have chocolate wrapper mountains any more.

You spend lots of money, regardless of whether you can afford
it.

Guilty, but it's usually to fuel one's paradigm shifts; I've spent a lot
on computer stuff and popular psychology books. I think there is a
danger that you get carried away though.

The point then, is that the optimum health state I describe has been
described fairly accurately as the hypomania stage of SAD; and yet I
can have it permanently and as a normal state of health, rather than
a druglike high. I fear that the whole idea of SAD has been victim to a
core level ambush, in that it is not just a strange reaction to light
with highs and lows; it's rather that sufferers are experiencing a series
of periods of lowered subconscious quality, and are sometimes coming up
to near optimum health due to sunlight stimulating their immune
systems through subconscious quality.

The tragedy of it is that the
existing model does not indicate this, and that most sufferers will not
realise that they can be cured via raising the immune system
artificially through hypnosis, and generating optimum health - which
should be normality, and is not a 'mania' or other form of illness - all
year round. However, the fact that the SAD book has nailed down the
very benefits I have produced myself through hypnosis and given them
in an IMO beyond reasonable doubt proof of the associated traits has
allowed me to nail down the validity of what I have been saying with a
combinatorial proof, and for that at least I am very grateful. As a
parting shot on SAD, I would say we are all sufferers - as indeed we
are of non-optimum health until we have achieved control of
subconscious quality.

[* I talk about 'quality' a lot, I mean Robert Pirsig's idea of what
motivates people to do anything:-

biological quality
supercedes social quality
supercedes intellectual quality
dynamic quality
static quality

- I have added 'subconscio

For an understanding of this, read Pirsig's superb book 'Lila' .]

Some of these effects are circumstantial, in that if one is thinking
faster than someone else one is far more likely to be able to use
judgement and control over one's words, body language, tone of voice
etc. and hence the effects and impression one creates are likely to be
vastly different - hence some of these effects are merely byproducts of
the others. But this is exactly my point - all these things are merely
byproducts of the level of ?subconscious quality? perceived by the
subconscious mind. And to kid oneself on that one can achieve them
without considering ?romantic quality?  is IMO the biggest social
quality ambush of them all.

...


By admitting that some things are incontrovertibly true beyond
reasonable doubt - in any field, not merely these ideas -  one can
realise that one doesnt have to throw away one's principles, one's
morals, or make any leaps of faith which one is going to find hard to
justify to one's peers, oneself or any of the guardians of social quality
[Robert Pirsig's idea] ; all one has to do is realise the following
'algorithmic decision making criteria':-

" paradigm shifts such as those proposed here are not actually
leaps of faith; they are merely describing something we already know
at the dynamic quality level, but werent previously sufficiently sure of
to be able to iron out the contradictions, inconsistencies and
implications of the facts and hence we shy away from propagating the
evidence, the insights and the intuitive leaps into our other knowledge.

In accepting them once we realise this we are only changing our minds
or reneging on promises and values at the social quality level, not
at the dynamic or intellectual quality levels - the fear which prevents
us from making these shifts is therefore by and large unfounded."

In cataloguing these and making the paradigm shifts I
have been able to understand and experience true spiritual love AND set
myself free from the manipulation. Now if that isnt the best answer to
the double bind one could ever find, I'll eat my shorts.


----

end of excerpt.

I've been told by several people that this is 'powerful stuff'; because
it's 'just' my story though it's only powerful stuff if you want it to be.
I'll end with another anecdote, my favourite tune. This one's from
'The Princess Bride':

My Love is like a Storybook Story
But it's as real as the feelings I feel.

Those two lines sum up my insights on anecdotes; the story and the
insights area as real as the feelings and power that we give them.
We take our own truth and experience out of stories, information and
other people's opinions because they mean something to us in our own
spheres. And those personal feelings, opinions, experiences and personal
truth as I call it is what gives us our power. We can hold onto it and
nurture it and work from wisdom and heart-knowing, or we can give it away
and pretend we dont really know and dont really have the power to
think for ourselves and work out what's going on in our lives.

IMHO, events like Holly's talk with her relatives and my
'SAD' breakthrough as I call it and as I've described here come up in
our lives not by chance, rather as milestones in our spiritual growth.
There has been so much synchronicity surrounding my own 'optimum health
state', it beggars belief; I am convinced myself - through anecdotal
evidence, such as Celestine! <G> - that when a profound realisation such
as this comes up it is no accident.

And that also is my further answer to Sheryl on why we're gathered here;
I think we are here now to talk about things like this and set up these
kinds of situations for each other - where we are given the opportunity
to make leaps and breakthroughs in our own knowledge by the contagion of
one person seeing a higher truth in the story and anecdotes of another.

And those who do not want to make those leaps, do not have to because they
can interpret the stories and illustrations in different ways. No challenge.
No fight. No fear. If we can take each other in good faith even when
we do not agree, and respond in good humor and not feel invalidated even
when we do not concur with-  or  understand - the other's insights.

My very best regards to all, and please keep the posts coming. Much
catalysis and button-pressing going on in my mind from them! <G>

BTW Laurel, are you still there? I found your own anecdotes very uplifting
and catalysing back in May /June. Would really love to read more of them.
You have a heart-knowing there and a synchronistic button-pressing ability
which could really light up this discussion like a christmas tree <G>
Please do.

Light & Love to all,

Steve Murray

grkinfo2@udcf.gla.ac.uk

We are the hope that will never hide
We are the turning of the tide





I have so much stuff in my head just now to write down it's gonna take
the whole weekend.

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Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:53:32 +0100
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Subject:      ADD - Anecdotal Deficit Disorder? <G>
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[This is included on the 'Education' thread. It was originally
posted to the NLP [Neuro Linguistic Programming] mailing list which
Wilbur & I are on. I'm posting it here since it seems very relevant
& more anecdotal evidence for my opinions on this stuff.

I think ADD should be renamed 'Anecdotal Deficit Disorder' <SMILE>

Enjoy,

Steve Murray


  Thoughts on 'Attention Deficit Disorder'

  ----
  Right on Wilbur,

  I could have written this myself; I'm not going to scream 'synchronicity!'
  at you [though I might if this was Psybernet], but I enjoyed our article
  a lot.

  I think ADD is just another way of saying to people 'it's your fault that
  the system isnt working for you' rather than addressing the real issues
  as to why kids dont perform well.

  You folks are going to think I'm a broken record, the old 'beware the man
  of one book' thing, but Tony Buzan's 'Use your head' is the definitive
  work IMO on how kids, adults , anyone can turn an attention deficit into
  an action, intelligence and self-esteem surplus.

  Buzan exposes how on being asked if they were taught anything about:

  -memory,
  -thinking,
  -special and advanced memory techniques,
  -eye functions when reading,
  -study techniques in different disciplines,
  -nature of and maintaining concentration,
  -motivation and it's effect on ability,
  -nature of key words and key concepts related to
  -note-taking
  -imagination,

  95% of the people surveyed answered 'No'.

  Buzan then goes on to prove to the reader experientially that these
  things make all the difference.



    I just wanted to say that as an adult, it could very easily be claimed that
    I'm a victim of ADD.  I've had friends that have decided that they had ADD
    and then tried to get me to get involved the in the Psychotheraphy and Drug
    Theraphy for this "disorder".  I don't have an attention problem, I have a
    problem with the structure of society and the falseness of a lot of our
    institutions.

  I do, too; particularly religion,science, medicine, academia, politics,
  bureacracy and freemasonry. Whoops, my big mouth's always getting me into
  bother...
  must be ADD! :-)


     The issues that I have are real, and recognized by large
     segments of our society, and as an individual, I don't have to be a victim
     of the lies that exist in our "Institutions".

  My head nods this too - I've been banging my head off most of the above
  institutions recently and getting accused of being everything from the
  antichrist to Elvis for doing so. But I dont take much notice of the
  criticisms I get - I think just being ourselves and refusing to give our
  power to think for ourselves away to some institution is the best thing
  we can do to protect ourselves from lies. The tricky part is keeping any
  of your friends who belong to them once you do that; or not getting
  unfairly labelled as having a disease such as ADD or SAD [or anti-semitism
  for that matter, if you have a go at the banks as well] when you do so.

  I have a parallel experience to Wilbur's in having finally cured myself
  of irritable bowel syndrome with hypnosis, NLP, affirmations & codewords,
  I found in a book on Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) a near-perfect
  description of my 'optimum health state' - the best I have ever felt -
  labelling it as a disease and recommending tranquillisers!

  [this is in my other article, 'Jeffries Ideas for nice people' ]

  As I said, I think a similarly negative label & nihilistic lack of action
  pertains to ADD as it does to SAD: that the real question should
  be 'why are kids not taught according to Tony Buzan's ideas' with ADD,
  and 'how can we stay in optimum health ' with SAD & hypomania. All IMHO.


    After all, it's the lies that
    bring people together, that create our institutions in the first place.

  Interesting... do you mean people's that people's ignorance and lack
  of knowledge of the real nature, purpose and state of our institutions is
  what keeps them going? I would agree with that. If you consider economic
  growth for instance, constantly trotted out by intellectuals and politicians
  as being the great financial idol to whom we all must worship [peace and
  hard currency upon it] , and realise that it's actually the total of all
  money which changes hands for any reason at all -i.e. hurricanes & earthquakes
  actually ADD to economic growth - then you realise how mad it is. But if
  you dont know that, swallow all the 'We must bring inflation down' crap and
  program that into your subconscious beliefs, then yes I think you do create
  our institutions, keep them going and brainwash the next generation with
  the same lies.

  NLP might be able to help here, I wonder? This is something I've thought
  about for a while; NLP seems to me to by and large stay away from trying
  to bring down religion, science, economics, politics, medicine etc: but
  by heck it has a lot of potential for so doing. In my opinion, there
  are few things needing reframed, phobia-cured & given a darned good ecology
  check than these.



    My daughter, who is nine years old and a straight "A" student, recently got
    a new teacher.  Her previous teacher managed to keep the other children
    quiet throughout the day, and my daughter was able to focus quite easily on
    her studies.  In the last few weeks, I've had a discussion with my daughters
    teacher every Wednesday, in order to find out and help my daughter with her
    problems in focusing.  The new teacher has admitted to me that she can't get
    the children to be quiet and stop talking, and she has just given up on
    trying to get them to stop talking throughout the day.  So much so that the
    children are missing their free time and other activities thoughout the day
    since they can't be quiet.

  I can relate to this, too; I was a straight A student myself at school,
  won all the prizes and got on well with the work. At university however,
  it was a different matter: I just didnt believe the things I was being
  told were a) useful, b) accurate and c) doing any good for us or the
  world in general.

  I feel for your daughter, because as well as now being unfairly prevented
  from putting her best into her work she may have to fight against peer
  pressure as well. This is the real reason why so many of us dont achieve
  our potential at school or in life in general IMO: if you get 10 out of 10
  every time, 'Naebody Likes Ye'. [from Jack Black's 'Mindstore'.] Kids
  are socialised to realise quite early on IMO that what their friends think
  of them is going to matter a lot more than what their parents or teacher
  think of them in the staying happy, healthy & self-confident stakes.

  And teachers, schools and most of our institutions in general IMO are
  designed - whether on purpose or as you say, by way of the lies which
  we believe which allow them to become that way through indifference,
  ignorance, & apathy - not to encourage and nurture an intelligent, eager
  mind, but to make it equal and fit in with the others.

  Niccolo Machiaveli relates in 'The Prince' a tale where on asking how his
  subjects could be best kept in line, the mentor took the questioner into
  a field of corn and snuck off the head of any stalk which extended more than
  an inch above the rest. This is the real reason why bright kids arent
  encouraged IMO; despite all the lip-service and bluster about wanting people
  to excel, the real situation becomes all too apparent all to quickly to the
  bright child: that society doesnt really want people who stick out above
  their peers to shine - it wants them to shut up IMO.

  Why I am sounding off about all this on the NLP list? Well, I think that
  NLP has even more of a right to be taught in schools and in general public
  life than Buzan's stuff. Why the heck dont we teach kids how to cure
  or prevent phobias in the first place? Why dont we show them how to reframe
  their anger, how to establish rapport with their friends and not get
  bullied. And more than this, why dont we teach them what love is and how
  to be kind, supportive and caring with each other *before* we get lots
  of childhood hurts to deal with in adulthood, if we happen to be lucky enough
  to find out about hypnotherapy and NLP.


    I'm sure that some would like to say that my daughter has ADD just like they
    would like to say that I have ADD.  The reality is that my daughter isn't
    strong enough to stand up in the middle of the day and exclaim, "It's too
    loud in here!  There are too many people talking!  I can't focus on my
    work."  Perhaps she realizes that she would create a problem by doing that,
    both with her classmates and the teacher.

  I think so... and it's a tragic shame. So often in life I see and hear
  about things where I would just love to jump in and be able to say
  to people - in this instance, this classroom: hey look! there's a better
  way for everyone to do this ! no-one loses!. But in practice, I cant:
  but their teacher could, if only (s)he knew NLP and Buzan and had the guts
  to tell the kids the truth about their minds, life and love. And was able
  to avoid being sacked by the head. And (s)he wasnt struck off by the
  education authority. And they werent censured by the state authorities for it.
  And they didnt get the rug pulled out from under them by the senate. And...

  well, you get the picture. I think that schools will change, but only when we
  change ourselves -collectively, and soon.


    I haven't met a child yet that wasn't able to focus on something that they
    were interested in.  The problem with society and most classrooms is that
    they don't believe that they have any responsibility to make the subject
    material interesting or personally relevant for the students.

  Indeed... I long thought that 'the world didnt care ' whether I, my friends
  & family excelled, plodded along or fell under a bus: I thought that all
  the institutions and people were mostly disinterested. However, I have learned
  the hard way that this is not so -'they' are greatly interested, in keeping
  things the way they are. Interested enough to cover up , discredit, restrict
  , ban or -that old favourite - 'regulate' - anything which might upset
  the applecart. For instance, NLP & hypnotherapy. Of course, I'm sure the
  curious fact that there is little or no NLP research in mainstream psychology
  journals despite it's proven validity has a perfectly reasonable explanation.

  It's just that I cant think of one.


    Indeed in
    some classes, they can't even keep the classroom quiet enough to make it
    condusive to studying.  I believe that is a problem with the learning
    institutions, not with the children.  How many times have teachers ever
    admitted to being at fault for anything that happened in the classroom?

  Well, I do agree with you there. My own classes & lab technician stints
  tend to go well - because although I'm on very good terms with virtually
  all the students, they know that if they try it on with me I'll crap
  on them from a great height. When applying NLP in the classroom, it might
  to well to listen to some of Ross Jeffries' stuff - not to seduce people,
  but to keep the academic trains running on time. This is something that
  has always puzzled me about dictator & tyrant figures in companies and
  institutions; no matter how dastardly their deeds and how oppressive their
  reign of terror, people will often admire them because they 'get things done'.
  The trains run on time. And people sometimes would rather have that stability
  and familiarity of routine under a tyrant than enter uncharted territory
  with someone trying to be nice to them and reform the system.

  Jeffries is controversial I know, but one cant help admire the way in which
  his trains do indeed run on time. He gets results, and no man is likely
  to suffer from ADD in one of his seminars. Neither are they likely to
  lapse in concentration or feel a drop in motivation; he really has found
  an extremely powerful teaching strategy, albeit one which many are excluded
  from benefitting from by the nature of it.

  One of my own ambitions is to take Jeffries raw insights and turn them into
  something acceptable and even 'nice' which women can use as comfortably
  as men to make the 'trains run on time' in their lives and relationships
  without hurting, seducing or degrading anyone. I think the teacher is
  indeed at fault if they have not looked into NLP-  but I think we NLPers
  are also at fault if we have not looked into Jeffries.

  I've written 2 or 3 articles titled 'Jeffries ideas for nice people I, II &
  III; some of these are up at www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html
  if anyone wants a look.

  And I hope no-one got bored reading another of my long articles - if they
  did, it must have been Attention Deficit Disorder, eh? :-  :-

  Cheers

  Steve

  grkinfo2@udcf.gla.ac.uk

  -----------

  [end of enclosed article]

Well, that's my anecdote- how I realised that 'attention deficit disorder'
and seasonal affective disorder are more disorders of our education and
medical and social systems than of the 'victims' who get labelled with them.

It is *we* *ourselves* who do that labelling though. No-one can make us
victims unless we give them the power. And it is by owning our own truth
and trusting our own experience and heart-knowings that we take back
our power from these systems.

If you like it, if it works for you, then you can take
whatever parts of it are useful and plug them into your heart-knowing.
If you dont like it, well...  it's 'just' an anecdote, right? And
you dont have to give it any more power than it takes time to reach
for the 'Delete' key.

I think that's the real beauty of anecdotal evidence in psyberspace,
that those who resonate with something like this can get the full benefit
of it and those whose cup of tea it aint can just see it as a story and
hit the delete key.


Best Regards to all,

Steve Murray

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Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:24:22 -0500
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Snipping the following out of the dialogue between PWP participants, (Fritz,)

>> Anectdotal evidence are the examples to
>> fortify or to shake a given theoretical construction; but without the
>>process
>> of verification or falsification of theoretical concepts anectdotal
>> information represents a collection of non-related stories which at best
>> leads to a kind of practical intelligence (which may be very useful in
>> mastering day-to-day problems). But the goals of education are different.

Anecdotes are brief recountings of incidents. It's a structural idea in my
mind: defined by brevity and usually with a singular event at the
anecdote's core. Perhaps the experiences of each of our lives does break
apart into strings of antecdotes; as metaphor the anecdote reduces to such
a string.

***

The whole issue of *experience* as a component of education is coming into
the light. An increase in eros matters too for how we evaluate knowledge be
it structured as theory, data, experience, tacit, etc. will in large part
define its import in our lives. Experience of the problem, challenge,
antimony, process, resolution, is rising in significance as a mode of
learning, especially in non-academic environments, YET, it asks no less of
discrimination and reasoning abilities than more formalized modes of
education.

***

Education may be catagorically formalized, but as a practicum in day-to-day
living it is exactingly about the mastery of day-to-day problems; is it not?

**

Still, being able to figure out what is nonsense, what is not important,
what is not reasonable is not to ignore paradox, complexity, opposition,
the intersubjective, the ontological subjective, and pure feeling. It is a
disservice to our highest mental, psychoid and spiritual capabilities to
NOT allow for the part played by the ability to reasonably evaluate our
experiences, and those reported to us, whether we parse them down to mere
anecdote or make of it all a dance of wholeness and glory. And, wholeness
and glory seems to me to be an apt objective for my own education. (I would
qualify the easily misunderstood *glory* to state that for me it is
soul-glory and not vain-glory I'm dancing awkwardly toward.)

Well, what do I know?

your pomping pontificator,

HooN

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Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:43:37 -0400
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From:         Sheryl Garner <COpumpkin@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: PWP: RL, Synchronicity, and ....

Hello all...
It seems I have defeated my personal machine daemons, at least for this
battle, and I still seem to be getting out there, thanks to all of you for
confirming it! <grin>

I don't know if this is on track for the PWP themes, either, but HGB (I am
having an extremely difficult time addressing you as that, more on that
later) synchronicity... the minute I began reading your post, I began shaking
and still am... what you wrote about your thoughts on dreams was totally
synchronistic, since I woke up last night, grudgingly not wanting to wake up
to write down my dream, but doing it anyway, and in doing it knowing that it
was important I do so.  The insights I had after writing it down were not so
much about the dream (although I suspect it also has profound implications)
but about intuition and bringing the unconscious to consciousness, at least
for me, and I'm still wondering if it was some great insight, or am I just a
little slow in bringing this unconscious/conscious knowledge up?

And then Steve comes along and backs it up with Celestine Prophecy and
synchronicity... phew, I can only handle so much of this! <grin>  So I'm
going to take my time in reading your other posts.

In as few words as possible I want to pass along one my synchonistic events,
but there is much more... it kind of reflects to you, HGB. When I first
naively went on line, I chose as my screenname pumpkin19...  thinking even
more naively <huge grin> that I would change it for each season.  I used it
for a year, during which time I made massive life changes, guided for the
first time, I think, by my inner light (for lack of a better description.)
 By last March, though, my belief in the inner light was pretty shakey,
caught between what the *system* wanted, and hope, trust and faith.  I
changed my screenname (this appears to be a regular avocation with many
AOLers) to enigmafem (ok, I can hear you all wretching, I'm wretching too
<g>)

Then in June, I was in as much turmoil over what directions I needed to take
in my life as I have ever been.  I asked the universe, inner and outer, what
I needed to do...  In my car I had a pick of a pumpkin, pine cone, leaves,
etc., (those hobby kinds you stick on wreaths, etc.)  wired to the real view
mirror.  It was the first very warm day of the summer, and I got in my car,
and there on the gear shift console,  perfectly placed, upright, was the
pumpkin from the pick, permanently melted to the console.  The message was
and is clear to me every time I see it.  When I felt the time was right, I
created my COpumpkin screenname and buried enigmafem forever <grin>

So, Holly, I can't help but see/feel the synchronicity in your name... or the
symbolism, either.

This is all becoming a little overwhelming!!!  Is anyone else feeling that?
 Walter???  Is this anywhere near the direction you thought we'd go???

Sheryl (Pumpkin with an inner light!)

Email Address:  COpumpkin@AOL.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 23:50:45 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP: RL, Synchronicity, and ....
In-Reply-To:  <960927164335_295008706@emout10.mail.aol.com>

Sheryl,

> . . . but HGB (I am
> having an extremely difficult time addressing you as that, more on that
> later) synchronicity...

I have the dame difficulty, i have to keep going back to the
original to see if it is HBG or HGB . . . whatever, i "think"
Holly, or Hollyg, as it comes in the email address.  I used to be
Walterl, which i liked but which was "taken" when i changed
addresses.

Email address as avatar interests me.  I have been toying with
the idea of a domain name psybernet.co.nz, I would like
walter@psybernet.co.nz, how vain is that?  Names!  What is in a
name?  A lot when that is the first thing we see in cyberspace.

Individuality, being who we are, not loosing that, yet
collaborating?  Yet learning the traditions, the conserved
culture?  A theme *here* as well as in the larger social context?


Walter,
Off to do some gardening, reluctantly even though it is a
magnificent spring day!



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 22:17:28 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         hollyg <hollyg@TIAC.NET>
Subject:      Re: PWP: RL, Synchronicity, and ....
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Well, to be honest, I'm having problems with it as well, so scrap HBG and go
to Holly.  I really don't have strong feelings about it ... more that it
seems a bit more anonymous ... which is rather silly in a group of this sort.

So Holly (my real and only name) it is ....


:)



>Sheryl,
>
>> . . . but HGB (I am
>> having an extremely difficult time addressing you as that, more on that
>> later) synchronicity...
>
>I have the dame difficulty, i have to keep going back to the
>original to see if it is HBG or HGB . . . whatever, i "think"
>Holly, or Hollyg, as it comes in the email address.  I used to be
>Walterl, which i liked but which was "taken" when i changed
>addresses.
>
>Email address as avatar interests me.  I have been toying with
>the idea of a domain name psybernet.co.nz, I would like
>walter@psybernet.co.nz, how vain is that?  Names!  What is in a
>name?  A lot when that is the first thing we see in cyberspace.
>
>Individuality, being who we are, not loosing that, yet
>collaborating?  Yet learning the traditions, the conserved
>culture?  A theme *here* as well as in the larger social context?
>
>
>Walter,
>Off to do some gardening, reluctantly even though it is a
>magnificent spring day!
>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
>http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 06:33:21 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP:Education
In-Reply-To:  <960926172318_318146103@emout17.mail.aol.com>

Sheryl ,

> First, I want to see if anyone else gets this.. I have been having problems
> not only getting to the web sites with this message:

I got it too!  As you must be well aware!

> USER IDENTIFICATION FAILED
> Sorry but your screen name could not be validated by the
> web software. Please try again in a few minutes.

I have no idea what this might be.  It is all working fine for
me.  Does it work now?  Sometimes there is something in the cache
that causes problems.  In Netscape (I think) there is an option
to clear the cache, worth trying, one of those things I do with
computers if they don't work.  The other is  to switch everything
off and start again, it often helps!

Do you know which program sent that message?  Your browser? Or
was it further down the line?  It is not the Psybernet site (I am
fairly sure, as no user identification is required.  Any one can
read our stuff!)


> In addition my own computer has turned on me since I added a printer and
> mouse.

How is that now?


~~~

== Misunderstandings in Cyberspace ==

> I thought Robert's thoughts were great...  crucial, I'm finding more and more
> is a willingness of each individual, a mutuality, to continue communication,
> because the misunderstandings in cyber space have a different character than
> those in f2f, and I also think there is increased potential for
> misunderstandings.  For that reason I believe that a firm committment to
> understanding each other is essential for learning and communication to take
> place.

I have spent an hour or two reading posts and signalling *Topics*
I'll post them soon, I have just done it above, using the two
equal signs.  I have something to add there:

Misunderstandings are common.  However the written word *forces*
us to be clear, and so understanding is also common!  This can
lead to dialogue, and conflict, strong feelings etc.
Understanding does not always mean agreement.

What about what we read between the lines?  What we see there is
our selves mirrored, and beyond that perhaps something of the
person that they did not think they were revealing!  In other
words we get understood more than we are sometimes comfortable
with . . . .

I don't think this is happening for me right now, but it has.



Warm wishes,

Walter.



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 06:33:27 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP: RL, Synchronicity, and ....
In-Reply-To:  <199609271349.JAA29833@zork.tiac.net>

Holly!

> a personal story.

A buzz to get this anecdote about experience of the psyche!

> Their response was that I was probably creating this "problem" in my child
> by talking about the fact that I dream.  My father-in-law in particular
> argued that he never dreams.... he was very very dismissive.

I find it interesting that there is a link with the conservative
nature generally and the denial of the psyche in all its forms!
Apart from memories of nasty events, these tend to be vindictive
fantasies.

Note I am going beyond your relations and generalising . . .

I am convinced that the politically conservative, while socially
repressive are also psychologically repressive.  All on the rise
in New Zealand, in a cruel new right resurgence, perhaps a little
like Germany 1930's or thereabouts, scary.

> How dare you.  Don't you ever tell me what did or did not happen.  You
> weren't there.  You don't know.  It happened.  Believe me.  I lived it.
>
> I was furious.

There is no fudging involved in linking this with our
discussions.  A moment of valuing experience!  Knowing from
experience.  And all presented in an anecdote!  The denial of
experience is of course the "crazy" quality here.  As so often
happens, the craziness then is seen to be in the person
attempting to validate the experience.

A common theme in movies, anyone recall the beginning of the
Invasion of the Body Snatchers?  Also in the more current 12
Monkeys.

There is a link here between learning, experience, the psyche,
and madness.

> Thank God my husband was reassuring (he finally had a taste of these distant
> relatives two years ago and knows I wan't making it up).

Yes, thank God.


> This doesn't really fit in with education per se, but it was (synchronicity)
> an obvious example of what I was talking about in my posts.  About life
> experience being dismissed and how easy it is to let them be dismissed.

> OK, I'm trying to fudge this anecdote into the larger picture.  But somehow
> it all fits....


It all fits.  This goes to show the value of seemingly unrelated
anecdotes, and the value of some  == anarchy in the learning
process ==

Notice how the *political* word was already in our midst as well!


I may have introduced that with the Marxist notion of "from the
people to the people":

|    Facilitation & The Job of Web Scribe.
|    My participation includes these jobs.  I will attend to the timing,
|    and other factors to  keep our group coherent.  I will do the
|    posting to the web. I will endeavour to use  the principle of
|    "from the people to the people".  It will be great if, as we go,
|    we  make comments in the posts about the process.



All for now,

Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 06:33:31 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP: RL, Synchronicity, and ....
In-Reply-To:  <960927164335_295008706@emout10.mail.aol.com>

Sheryl

== bringing the unconscious to consciousness ==

> The insights I had after writing it down were not so
> much about the dream (although I suspect it also has profound implications)
> but about intuition and bringing the unconscious to consciousness, at least
> for me, and I'm still wondering if it was some great insight, or am I just a
> little slow in bringing this unconscious/conscious knowledge up?


I have done it again, named a topic as I go.  (list coming soon!)


> This is all becoming a little overwhelming!!!  Is anyone else feeling that?

Is it because of the synchronicity, the insights that you feel
this?  Personally I am fine with that, it is familiar to me,
though that is not to say you are slow!  I live with this sort of
power of the psyche, and at times I do feel overwhelmed.
Especially when it comes in very personally.

>  Walter???  Is this anywhere near the direction you thought we'd go???

I did not know where it would go!  I think this is a fine
exploration however, and I am getting some sense of what might go
on to the web.

> Sheryl (Pumpkin with an inner light!)

I see a luminescent one, light shining through the skin, casting
a pleasant orange glow.

I can see why such an inherently or seemingly calm state, might
feel overwhelming.  Like coming home to a familiar but long lost
place.


== Inner Light ==



Walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 06:55:36 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      PWP: Topics

Hi all,

I have been making a list of topics, and in some cases sub
topics.  I have not been very systematic in this, as the topics
are only now becoming clear, let me add one that I just noticed
right now first:

== Lights Going On ==

and more . . .

== The faculty of critically assessing information ==

== Anecdotes ==

== Goals of Education ==

== Constructivist Approach to Learning ==

== Dialogue ==

== The Qualities of Computer Mediated Communication ==

== The Self ==

== Inner Light ==

== Gender ==

== The Occupied Mind ==

== Academic Anarchy ==

== Politics of Education ==

== Politics of the Psyche ==

== Synchronicity ==

== Freakiness ==

== Madness ==

== Psyche ==

== Silence ==

== Formality in Education ==

== Qualities of CMC ==
  = Asynchronicity =
  = Misunderstandings =

== Education and Training ==



~~~

Lets play with that list in email and then work towards some
"Formed Texts"


You can see what I mean by that on the web at:

http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/project.htm#ftxt_topic

That is a fairly rough draft, but you can see that we can
work towards elegance of topics and each one having several
authors and a unified structure.  We can work on the exact "form"
we want these texts to have.

The idea for these txts came from discussion on Psyber-L about "A
Pattern Language"  and there is some good material at:

http://www.anamorph.com/docs/patterns/default.html

~~~

For now, please add topics as you reply to people . . . if the
mood strikes you for that!  Also please add to the list, whatever
you think needs to be there . . .  you can already imagine how we
can split / unite / categorise / rename / interlink these topics.
Suggestions along any of these lines most welcome.

Also if you think that the list is too broad . . . how would you
prune it?

I have some quotes for all of these topics, and will experiment
writing up something onto the web, but please do not see that as
final!

Don't forget too that one can cut and paste from the web, into
email, to respond directly to what is on the web.  Some
indication of what is quoted will need to be made.



Walter
keen anticipation . . .
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 04:57:06 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      PWP:Education vs Training

Hi Walter and dear Psyber-Minds,

Walter wrote on 27.09.96:

>Hmm, are we tapping into the age old training / education
distinction?

On my mind today as it happens, with calling the psychotherapy
course a *training* course, when I really think it is something
we can't train people in!  perhaps I'll call it Psychotherapy
Education.<

Let's take the example of studying the piano. Training your faculty of playing
scales, chords, and alike is an important prerequisite, a kind of hard ware
rerquirement, before you can interpret the music (sheet music - the sofware).
Excercising the so-called "etudes" is a training which you cannot skip if your
education in interpretation of musical works on the piano is to be successful.
The educational aspect is to the greater part rooted in the development of
feelings of expression and interpretation. This, naturally, requires the
dialogue between teacher and student. But a piano student would waste the time
of his teacher (for instance that of Alfred Brendel) if he did not get his/her
fingers in order.

I think that his example also applies to many other endeavors. Training in
some faculties is the basis to receive education in a certain field. Let us
remind that the starting situation is the following: On one side the
knowledgible teacher who ideally has the skills of the subject he is teaching
and the educational insight and on the other side the student who wants to be
educated.
The AP-class example of teaching electricity could also mean that perhaps even
the teachers could not built a circuit. They were just reproducing theory as
they heard it at college/university.

Best wishes to everyone, FRITZ

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 12:35:10 -0400
Reply-To:     Pixy Ferris <spferris@frontier.wilpaterson.edu>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Pixy Ferris <spferris@FRONTIER.WILPATERSON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: PWP: Turning on Lights, etc...
In-Reply-To:  <324b4f03.6458091@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi Walter and all

        As a voice on Pysber-L that hasn't been heard for a while, and a
PWP participant whose first posting to the group this is, I almost feel
like I should reintroduce myself, so I'll do so very briefly.  I'm an
Asst. Professor of Communication whose interests include CMC, virtual
culture, and gender issues.  This group is the richest forum for
discussion of these issues that I've found on the Net, and I have enjoyed
it for about a year.  Although I indicated my interest in PWP early to
Walter, off-line comittments have kept me form being more than an
observer, but I'm hoping that things have slowed down somewhat.  This is
an issue that I know we are all faced with.  Although dialogue on this
medium is oftens much richer and more focused than that of ftf dialogue
such as I at least experience in my daily life, the immediacy of the
demands of that life are hard to dismiss.
In addition, as Walter pointed out in a recent posting "why not?"

Walter
> I have been very absorbed in my off line life.  And why not!  I
> feel 100% committed to my Psybernet work, and at the same time I
> do it in addition to a full life, and thus want to take advantage
> of the asynchronicty here when I have been caught in the
> immediate and unexpected of the non-asynchronous.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, to my mind a tremendous asset of
both PWP and Psyber-L is  that the participants here are real people with
active involvement in social, work, and  academic lives, who choose to
enrich their lives through involvement in another medium that cuts across
barriers of time and space and allows for intellectual involvement.  I'd
like to think we are an example of the best this medium has to offer, and
the PWP is a good -and somewhat unique-  example. In our discussions here I
see the potential for applications to many of the areas Walter posted in a
separate note: educational applications, the qualities of CMC, gender
issues, to name just a few.  I look forward to much further discussion on
these and other issues, and I'd like to end by agreeing with Walter's
observation that:

> We are in an learning situation here, and in one where there is
> nothing but the notes in the margins . . . there is no set text
> of any sort.  We are not simply going on our "feelings" . . .
> experience is more than feeling . . . it includes "seeing",
> "knowing" and thinking.  I put those first two in quotes as the
> seeing is not the seeing of the screen, it is the seeing of the
> actual / virtual gathering, its past future present phenomenon.
> Just as looking at the book, and the pages is not to see life in
> the novel, the drama, the plot, they are also experienced in the
> virtual.

Cheers!

           Pixy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 12:56:10 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <COpumpkin@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: PWP: Topics

Good morning Psyber friends...
I think the bugs/daemons have been overcome in my own computer and getting
onto the superhighway (having finally had my screenname recogized, LOL).  A
visit to the web site was helpful, I think I'm beginning to get it!

I just want to comment on a few topics in the last posts, then like Robert,
go into a listening mode <g>

Walter, in my opinion, any screen name/avatar you picked would in no way ever
appear vain, because you deserve every accolade I can think of.  Finding the
entire Psyber site was like a coming home for me, and the concept and process
of PWP is profound, and becomes more profound everyday.  I have a bumper
sticker on my car (another car story, LOL!) that says "Something wonderful is
about to happen."  Walter, I think you planted the seed for that something
wonderful and are nourishing it continually.  Your thoughts on understanding
being increased in on line communication are... yes!!!  I can't think of
anyone better to edit this process.

Steve, I'm glad you're letting some of that smoke out of your ears... you
seem to be one big bonfire of synchronistic stimulation <g>  I just read your
SAD piece, and could agree/compare my own experiences in your hypnosis with
my own experience, which was through on line relationships (surprise, <ironic
smile>).  The SAD *symptoms* are similar to rapidly cycling bi-polar
disorder, sort of an extended duration SAD?   After reading your thoughts on
SAD, my own mind on fire, you threw in the comment about lighting up like a
Christmas tree, and I couldn't help but think, Holly???  Did you catch
that???  LOL, Steve, I hope you're taking some time to cool off
occasionally!!!

Fritz, I really like the piano analogy... it ties in with my personal insight
into my dreams, intuition, unconscious, conscious the other day.  If I extend
your analogy to life, I see that all of my own personal experiences, good,
bad, and inbetween, are a form of training... as a human, I can choose to try
to understand that it is a form of training (or choose not to).  In order to
fine tune any intuition I may have, it seems necessary for me personally to
understand what those experiences meant to me, and to understand that they
are personal experiences which contribute to my intuition in a given
situation.  The anecdotes we've been talking about increase my understanding,
and in that I think Holly is right on.  The training is simply the
events/people that occur, in an objective sense... the anecdotal education is
how I interpret them in a subjective manner.   (Hey, HooN, did I just repeat
everything you said in your 9/27 post?  I think maybe I did!)

Pixie, I'm glad you brought up the gender issues... it's one of the areas I'm
studying intensely right now, and brings up all kinds of paradoxes for me.
 The culture/developmental/role conflict issues could take 20 lifetimes of
study.  I seem to be stuck in a period of difficulty in communicating my own
thoughts.  At this point, I perceive the difficulty to be a function of the
duality of our dominant culture, good/bad, right/wrong, reflected in our
present form of communication, especially in rl. That duality is almost
impossible for me to exist in anymore.  In some ways I am more affected,
understand more, when Steve puts a grin at the end of a comment, or Holly
puts a smiley face at the end of a post.  Whether it's personal or gender, I
don't know, but the investigation is interesting <g>  Is anyone else affected
that way?

Wow, this is just a plethora of assorted issues...  or is it?  I think I will
join Robert in a chair by the fire and spend some time in the silent mode of
listening.

Sheryl :)

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Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:07:22 EDT
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From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      PWP,names

Hello to everzbodz,

Walter wrote on 28.09>
*Email address as avatar interests me.  I have been toying with
the idea of a domain name psybernet.co.nz, I would like
walter@psybernet.co.nz, how vain is that?  Names!  What is in a
name?  A lot when that is the first thing we see in cyberspace.*

I wonder what is in 101 632,3701 at Compuserve.com., my address. I think
putting emphasis on the technical side and codes of cyberspace is an
overinterpretation and may lead to misunderstandings. In this connection -
Sheryl wrote,
 *I'm finding more and more
is a willingness of each individual, a mutuality, to continue communication,
because the misunderstandings in cyber space have a different character than
those in f2f, and I also think there is increased potential for
misunderstandings.  For that reason I believe that a firm committment to
understanding each other is essential for learning and communication to take
place.*

I think it is very important that the messages we receive are not influenced
by their technical form but by their contents. Spelling or grammar
(construction of sentences) is sometimes a problem but there are millions of
reasons why particular mistakes can occur. The *increased potential of
misunderstandings* is definitely there and, so, I try to filter out all
perturbing factors when I read a particular message. A great help is the
biographic information (my virtual file of each person), which helps me to
understand what the message is to relay.

I am very pleased to read the acclamations which Walters efforts receive. For
me it is the first participation in such a list and I am happy that I hit the
jackpot right away.

Best wishes, FRITZ

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Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:44:56 -0400
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From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      PWP
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi to all;

  I've been away for a three day Psychodrama training workshop and just
returned to find 23 messages in my mailbox.

 I'm still feeling overwhelmed by the topics in the group and trying to
figure out what's going on (trying to make some sense out of it). Perhaps,
that's one of my problems in a group, but the topics and the responses seem
to ramble and lack some continuity which I guess I'm searching for. Now I
suppose that I need to find some way to make some sense out of things before
I can give any sort of decent (intelligent?) response.

 I am very intrigued by what's going on and will continue to struggle to
sort things out, and I hope that I don't continue to remain a silent member
of the group. Being heard has been a problem for me most of my life, and I
do want to be heard, but I need more confidence in myself before I speak up.
Perhaps, that's a gender issue for me?

 Searching for ways to be heard.

 Thanks Janell


Janell F. Adair

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Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:27:14 EDT
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From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      PWP:Topics

Hello to all,

I am addressing myself to Walter's list of topics. The  concepts refer to
different levels of generalization.
The following topics are of more general level

        Goals of Education
        Politics of Education
        Politics of the Psyche

Other topics also have the quality of a very general level but in the context
of education might be classified as auxiliary topics

        the Self
        inner light
        gender
        the occupied mind
        Freakiness
        Madness
        Psyche
        Silence
        Lights Going On

More specific topics are

        education and training
        qualities of CMC
        formalities in education
        synchronicity
        academic anarchy
        Dialogue
        Constructivist Approach to Learning
        The faculty of critically assessing information

From my point of view it seems necessary that a certain structure evolves with
a hierarchy of topics, otherwise everything is of equal importance and the
boundaries become fuzzy.


In the analysis of the communication process one may break down the different
parts involved into

(A) source of information - message - sender (coder)
(B) communication channel with noise sources
(C) receiver (decoder) - analyst of information (sink of information)

Since education depends on communication this scheme has to be considered.

Regards,
FRITZ, trying to eliminate noise sources in the communication channel

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Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:10:55 EDT
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From:         "James V. Dimmick" <72262.2556@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Charles, re Washington Post article.

Congrats, Charles, re Washington Post article.

  I hope this opens flood gates of interest in GBG.  It will help if
other papers (like LA Times) pick up the info.

  Speaking only for myself, I havn't any idea of how to work into a
game.  As you could tell from an earlier posting my world is one of
communications.  I really enjoy Emailing with all of you here on
WL's lists.

  Communications for me includes Amateur (ham) radio, and quite
recently the use of VON (voice on internet) which is talking real time
using my computer and earphones - microphone.  Contacts have ranged
from San Francisco, California to Durban, South Africa

  Again, congratulations               Jim the elder

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Date:         Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:44:46 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: PWP: Technology and our process
In-Reply-To:  <199609301444.KAA18914@mh101.infi.net>

Janell,

>   I've been away for a three day Psychodrama training workshop and just
> returned to find 23 messages in my mailbox.

I hope you had a good workshop.

I guess you find 23 messages a lot, which leads me to believe
that you are not filtering the mail into their own folders.
(perhaps not, perhaps you are overwhelmed anyway!)  It is
possible for this list alone to generate more than this quite
quickly.  It is easier to deal with if all the mail sits in a
Psyber-L folder, and then one can get to it more gradually.

It seems that of all the mail programs around only the commercial
versions filter mail automatically, apart from Pegasus.  As far
as I can see Netscape and MS Explorer Mail do not do this as yet.
I use Agent, and find it the best of the ones I have tried, with
some reservations.  It also does Newsgroups which I like.

>  I'm still feeling overwhelmed by the topics in the group and trying to
> figure out what's going on (trying to make some sense out of it). Perhaps,
> that's one of my problems in a group, but the topics and the responses seem
> to ramble and lack some continuity which I guess I'm searching for.

This is so typical of email lists.  Hopefully this can be
addressed by the very *work* of this group.

I have just begun to do a little more on the web pages.  I have
thrown together some quotes under the Topic header there of
"Anecdotes"  I would like to see us edit that material further
into a "formed text".

I noticed on my friend Dan's computer that the page does not work
well using MS Internet Explorer.  In my Netscape once the page is
loaded, and it is already long, I can get from one "named place"
to another very quickly, Dan's machine insisted on re-loading the
page each time.  Please comment and report back . . .  if that is
the case for all Explorer users, I will need to revise my
technique.

Janell,

I am afraid I am adding another topic to the frey here:

== Art and Technology ==

I recall being taught blackboard techniques and audiovisual aid
techniques at Teachers College.  I am convinced that we can't
divide the creative process as much from the technical one as we
used to.

Right now for example I am organising for the Psyber-L archives
to be automatically archived on the Web.  I needed to do this as
I thought it best if our PWP pages on the Web had links going
directly to the original emails.

> Now I
> suppose that I need to find some way to make some sense out of things before
> I can give any sort of decent (intelligent?) response.

Already this is an intelligent response . . . to notice the
dispersion . . . It is appropriate to this stage of the PWP too,
don't forget we will look for the unity in Step 4

|    4.  From complexity to simplicity.
|    Using the web to "see" the group we will define one main task,
|    perhaps more, that  satisfies, combines, integrates, the various
|    interests and themes.  We name our  project.  Exactly how this
|    is done is to be discovered.

In a sense your posts marks the beginning of that phase.

>  I am very intrigued by what's going on and will continue to struggle to
> sort things out, and I hope that I don't continue to remain a silent member
> of the group. Being heard has been a problem for me most of my life, and I
> do want to be heard, but I need more confidence in myself before I speak up.
> Perhaps, that's a gender issue for me?

A good question . . . and not just for *you* in a persoal sense .
. . can and do men say more in cyberspace as they might in f2f
gatherings?  Is this simply a difference, or oppression?

Quite a note to end this post on!  Which has mainly been about
some more technical aspects, yet fittingly, not divorced from the
very human!


Warm wishes,

Walter.




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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