To: Walter Logeman Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9608" From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)" Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:44 -0400 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 06:31:39 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: . . . it has been a while! Hi, to all in the Psybernet Mailing List, it has been a while! - I am thinking about this moment in Psyber-L. - This is similar to some ideas I have been expressing in the Dream Event, applying the basic ideas to the situation in psyber-L, and I am coming up with a plan . . . Being 'present' here is not like being present in a physical group. When we have a scheduled psychotherapy group, or an appointment to physically 'be' somewhere, we are dealing with something different to 'being' here. We don't have an appointment with cyberspace. Nor should we, because *time* is different here -- asynchronous -- that is a *feature* of this medium, and we need to use it to our advantage, and there are many . . . one is that we can get behind and catch up, that there is no pressure to be at an appointment, that we can fit something into our lives as it suits, that we can work on something in depth and then post, etc. I think we are not used to that, that it has not been named fully, that having a group in cyberspace will have dimensions to it that we do not yet understand. One of the things I have noticed is that there are synchronous moments in a list. The most obvious one is the *start of the list* at that point we are all in the same place, and thus there is the familiarity of that, introductions and so on. We can recreate such moments -- as I hope to do very soon on this list! There are many ways -- even software ones where everyone needs to resub to stay on! I have a less drastic one in mind. A moment of synchronicity can happen quite naturally too . . .This very post after such a silence could have that effect. When the Dream Event finishes (in its own good time -- and it will happen), that may prompt a resurgence in this list, it will certainly mean that I can be more present, as the Dream group has occupied the space I have for this sort of work, more than I anticipated. I will make several posts in the next few days, leading up to a definite proposal for some collaborative Psybernetting! In the mean time I look forward to hearing from others in this list. All the best, Walter, Enjoying the first signs of spring here in New Zealand. _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 10:22:46 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Psybernet Mailing List, description -=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List -=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the effects of email groups and lists on group life and the psyche. The list is a starting point for depth psychological work on the net. Topics include: The art of leadership in communication networks. Creating communication environments. Gender issues. Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious. Special focus on how these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace. Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience of the medium. We voice that learning. Forming relationships of a collegial nature around our psychological net interests is an important part of the work. The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which includes psychological professional services on the net such as professionally facilitated email groups. The list is also a place for professional collaboration in the development of ethical depth work of this nature. Announcements about Psybernet services will be made in this list. The Psybernet web pages can be found at: http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman. Discussion of how the list is facilitated is integral to its purpose. Psyber-L is archived and these are available to members with an index psyber-l command to the listserv. To subscribe to PSYBER-L, send the a command to: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the BODY of e-mail: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname For example: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive confirmation request, then an acknowledgment, followed by a welcome message. To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to: LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM In the body of the email write: SIGNOFF PSYBER-L Last updated 5 August, 1996 Owner: Walter Logeman _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 11:27:06 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: sociometry Hi all in the Psybernet Mailing List, I have been discussion collaborative filtering with Dan Randow, who is on this list. In fact he & I, you could say invented it! The trouble was that we quickly discovered that others had of course thought of it before us. What is it? It is a way of organizing people around their interests -- their "taste buddies" as we called them. You find your taste buddies by giving heaps of feedback about what you like and do not like over the net. Once one has a clearly established group of taste buddies, it would be simple to find out if they like a particular movie, or cheese grater. It is a way of providing customised information, for example: please send me news items that at least 95% of my taste buddies are likely to also want to see. Imagine such a news service! Yahoo (the search engine people), and Agent Inc who developed Firefly and the engine behind it, have seen the potential, and are combining to provide services like this. (see news item attached below if you are interested.) ~~~ What has this to do with Psybernet? Bear with me . . . Dr. J L Moreno developed a method of exploring the links between people & called it Sociometry. This is the foundation of Psychodrama. The family of origin for example is a network of positive and negative links, to people. Thus psychodynamic psychotherapy can be seen as a form of sociometry or, to use the jargon of the net, collaborative filtering. If I am putting this into too small a nut shell, let me put it another way: The psyche is expressed in the links we make in life. If we choose partners who repeatedly hurt us, that may be mirroring some form of self hate. There is a strong correspondence between the web of links in the original family, or original social atom, as Moreno called it, and our current social atom, and the internal psychological dynamics we have. In other words how we link -- who we choose -- mirrors our soul. ~~~ Can you see connection between the linking on the net, and the mirroring we get of our being? The better the methods for making these choices the deeper the mirroring. More than that the further we will be extended Internet areas we would not otherwise know exist. For example on firefly ( http://www.firefly.com/ -- I am known there as Taste-Bud ) I learnt my taste buddies all seemed to like Buddy Guy -- I had never heard of him, I had a listen, and I am true to type. If I was not of course, I would need to provide feedback, and fine tune my taste pool. ~~~ Sociometry is the stuff that groups are made of. Group themes, group conflicts, group development, stages of group life are all expressions of sociometry. Patterns of the positive, negative and neutral links in the group. As we relate here we are on the edge of having new tools and methods for working with the sociometry in groups. Providing new mirrors for our psyche. ~~~ As I envisage the future, I see us developing new awareness of our demographic position in the world, where we fit on various bell curves, what majorities and minorities we belong to. What memes we harbour in our meme pool. This will come to us, not as boring tables but as discoveries we are connecting with, say, the other people in the world who likes both Jung AND email group dynamics -- in other words people who have followed the sorts of links that have bought us together. ~~~ These are the sorts of discussions that Dan & I have been having. He also has a background in sociometry, so we have that sense of the psychological impact of all of this . . . I am leading up to something . . . I have alluded before to a plan . . yes it is coming, and all this is related in some way . . . though I am not sue how exactly, or the details . . . Josh, I hope you are reading this, you might be able to add something here . . . Warm wishes, Walter, Already planning the next post . . . ~~~ Here is the old news item i referred to: Netday News News Item, 06/03/96 Yahoo! and Agents Inc. Team Up for Personalized Navigation Yahoo!, the leading indexer of the Web, and Agents Inc., producers of firefly agent technology for recommending music and movies, announced a strategic partnership today. Yahoo! has already established itself as one of the most widely-used navigational guides on the Web, and Agents Inc. has developed communities of users with similar tastes in entertainment around its firefly product. The two companies will collaborate to produce a firefly-like service for Web sites. "The degree of information overload on the Web today has no historical precedent," said Nick Grouf, CEO of Agents Inc. "The combination of firefly and Yahoo! will offer Web surfers today and in the future a unique navigational tool to harness the full potential of the Web." Details about the fruits of the collaboration will be provided by the companies at a later date. *ND* http://www.iworld.com _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 16:40:50 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: floating into view... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings to all, Allow me to offer a 'newcomer's' perspective on this list. I joined a little over a month ago, arriving by way of the Psybernet Web pages and the list archives. Intrigued by what I had read there, I was expecting a lively flow of conversation from a deep-running river of emotional communication and interaction. Yet there was one post from Walter and then nothing. It seemed I'd found a group/community which was in either deep meditation or terminal stagnation. The former seemed more likely, given the previous conversations and the nature of the list. Or maybe, more prosaically, people were simply involved in other matters that were taking up all their energies. So, sitting quietly in the virtual presence of people I don't know, I have discovered a fascination altogether different from the one I expected. While waiting patiently for the silence and the stillness to end, I have also enjoyed their existence - and enjoyed the irony that by refraining from posting I have been contributing to the list! There have been no lurkers here because the interiority/exteriority of the list has been turned inside out. But now that Walter has resurfaced (hello, Walter), perhaps it's time for me to drop a small pebble into the waters of this psyber-lake - not to disturb its placid, contemplative depths but to see if any ripples shimmer out across its still surface... ... ;) simon _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:14:41 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: The group psyche -- visible Hi all! Using the form of the glass bead game in the DreamEvent and making hypertext files of our collaborative efforts on the web, has been very inspiring for me. We are in an email list or group, and we produce a Work. I can't show it to you because the group is still in progress, and the work is in progress and confidential at present. You can see other games at hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ these are a step in the direction we have taken further in the DreamEvent. What potential! The Work is not a -record- of the group it is the life of the group. A video of a group is not the group. Like the painting "This is not a Pipe" -- do you know it? It is *of* a pipe. Our work on the web however is the group -- and yet not its archive, reading an archive is not like reading a story, the write up of the game is more like a story. I also think of the psychodrama in a psychodrama group. In such a therapy group there is a director who assists the group in producing its drama, which to be therapeutic needs to be good theatre. If one has a group on the Internet it would not produce a drama, but what is more native to the medium than a hypertext file. It could well be a multi media production. I think I am present at the birth of a form, of a method, of groups that collaborative produce a hypertext or multimedia "document" of their life. What are the elements of such a group? * The infrastructure of the Internet, and people with access to email and the WWW. * The description of the group which outlines the focus, purpose, and the constraints of the group within which the creative process can unfold. * Participants. Which includes people or a person who can perform various roles, such as the facilitation of the group dynamics, the upholding of the focus and plans outlined in the description, and the writing or overseeing the technical production of the work. Using such a process for psychological purposes is of interest to me. I see it as a way of letting us *see* the psyche, making the invisible visible. Charles has used the beautiful phrase "virtual music of ideas" for the glass bead games, I can see something of the virtual music of the groups life being played out on the web . . . however I can see that the skills developed in this process would be of great use in collaborative writing of any sort. Perhaps there are already many people out there with skills in using and facilitating groupware and working collaboratively in the "arts" in scientific, technical & business. Be good to learn from them. Certainly there is plenty of software around in the category of groupware. What could be more effective than an email list, and a web page? (Dan, you have a point of view that in organisations this is too haphazard?) What I am coming to is a proposal that we do some collaborative psychological work using this Psyber-L list. I'd like to hear from others if there is at least some general interest, and if so I will make a more detailed proposal . . . It will be in this public list, and on web pages that are public. It will be short, and have no further ambition than to . . . More on that later. What do you think? Walter, Feeling my enthusiasm build _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:29:41 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: floating into view... In-Reply-To: Simon, Welcome! > Allow me to offer a 'newcomer's' perspective on this list. I am delighted that you have been able to "participate" so fully in our silence! Yes deep meditation fits for me, I have never left, I have simply been quiet! > So, sitting quietly in the virtual presence of people I don't know, I have > discovered a fascination altogether different from the one I expected. This is a feature of moving into the realm of the psyche I think, it is utterly unpredictable. When we actually meet her we are blown away! So this is it! I have been working with a small group of 3 women in rl recently, not what I expected or wanted, but from which I am learning to value unexpected learning, also the pain, shock of watching ones best laid plans count for nothing as life has other plans. (Interesting to say this just as I am brewing up some plans!) > While waiting patiently for the silence and the stillness to end, I have > also enjoyed their existence - and enjoyed the irony that by refraining > from posting I have been contributing to the list! You certainly have, and I value your report from the depths of the silence very much. Thank you. > ... ;) May the ripples from your pebble last long and shimmer with the memories of their origin. Warm wishes, Walter. _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 00:08:20 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Speaking into silence... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Speaking into silence, into stillness... watching thoughts once trapped and held down now ripple across the measureless surface of time, unfolding from within, meeting other minds, other bodies, cascading through networks that stretch the soul, speaking of and to the vast body held in silence, lost and found in meditation... holding the centre yet knowing there is no centre, only a falling away in order to fall together in order to fall away together... Yes, you. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:55:52 -0700 Reply-To: ddunn1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Doug Dunn Organization: Preferred Company Subject: Re: The group psyche -- visible MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Logeman wrote: >clip< > What do you think? > > Walter, > Feeling my enthusiasm build > Walter, I am getting curiouser and curioser, methinks this is going to be interesting. Doug Dunn _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 03:28:59 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: . . . it has been a while! Hi, to all in the Psybernet Mailing List, I signed off because I went away for two months and I did not want my mail box to be cluttered with hundreds of messages. That fear was unnecessary, as it turned out. When I subscribed again, there was silence. Simon Trask thinks that the group was just enjoying a quiet sit-in. From my past experience I would say that the main activists of Psyber-L went into the dream event and left the group (some 80 people) speechless. Walters proposal of a revival of Psyber-L is a very timely one. I enjoyed the exchanges on the various topics discussed and although I am somewhat critical on the psychological dimension of the psyber-space I must admit that each morning I am looking into my mailbox with a sense of expectation wondering if news from Psyber-space emerged. Looking at differences between a real group session and this psyber-space group I notoce that in a real group session the response to a statement is immediate, that is with a time constant given by the duration of the session. Here, at the Psyber-L group the response is delayed by a much longer time. The psychological state of the person we are responding to has probably changed already when he/she receives our response. This introduces a more rational approach, leaving emotions somewhat at the side. Anyway, I am looking forward to Walter's new ideas best wishes, FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:45:01 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Learning to see... (1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Seeing reflections of myself in the mirror of the Other's (re)actions, seeing my own impulse to react forestalled by the careful measure of thought(fullness), seeing that this medium itself is too slow, seeing that its very slowness changes the significance of a response fired off in emotion, seeing spontaneity become simulation, seeing we are no longer in the same moment, seeing we are removed, sharing at a distance... _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:45:06 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Learning to see... (2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Seeing that the network is a mirrored site, broken and casting fragments, netsplit shards, splintered circulation, servers severed, channels clogged, yet somehow gathering energy, pulling in and pushing out, breathing the globe, technological gaia (in)forming the world, a self-regulating system of chaos and strange attraction bringing me to the edge of here and you... _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:15:41 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: . . . it has been a while! In-Reply-To: <960808072859_101632.3701_JHF83-1@CompuServe.COM> Simon, Fritz, Doug, and all, I am delighted to see you all here . . . confirmation that I am not simply writing to myself, though that would be OK too! Great to have you here from the Aion Group Doug, that was an experience i'll never forget. I think I learnt a lot, even about Jung! > When I subscribed again, there was silence. Simon Trask thinks > that the group was just enjoying a quiet sit-in. From my past experience I > would say that the main activists of Psyber-L went into the dream event and > left the group (some 80 people) speechless. I guess that is all true too, however I was present, as were many I think, watching that process, noting it and learning from it. I have learnt so much. One is not to worry too much about the ebb and flow! The very movement of this tide in Psyber-L is part of its life, if not its beauty, though for some it may be that too. Another is, that I can't really be in two email lists *fully* as well as live a normal life. Another is, that if I leave again for another PsyberGroup such as the dream event, that I will invite someone to facilitate here, that might be a great learning experience for us all. While some may have been speechless, others may have been present watching the silence, others waiting others just pleased to have a break and so on. I bet that there will be a few more departures if the list starts to flow again too. For some the quiet just delayed the unsubbing process! All this is conjecture. As such it reveals more about *me* than anything else . . . silence as mirror! > Looking at differences between a real group session and this > psyber-space group I notoce that in a real group session the response to a > statement is immediate, that is with a time constant given by the duration of > the session. There is an eternal "now" that means I am here with you even if only in my virtual space. Fritz, it was interesting for me to use the "find" option and quickly re read all your posts to this list. Who knows how you have changed, but my skimming, seems to have brought you to life for me. I guess it is almost second nature as a psychotherapist to "be in the here & now", to respond *as if* you are here now. I find it easy. As soon as as one of the people I work with begins to speak of the "past", it becomes the present. The child is here in the room, and I ask questions such as: What does the 10 year old feel as we talk about him like this? For some people this is very healing as the child loves the attention and needs it. It is never too late in the eternal now. I think this is exactly what it means when we say the soul is eternal. I would be happy to get responses, for example, to anything I have written and which someone digs out of the archives, I would have an immediate response. > Here, at the Psyber-L group the response is delayed by a much > longer time. The psychological state of the person we are responding to has > probably changed already when he/she receives our response. This > introduces a more rational approach, leaving emotions somewhat > at the side. Feelings have flown fast and furious here. But yes, we do get time to think, to process things. Yet someone might read this in a week, and come back *immediately* with a heartfelt response! > Anyway, I am looking forward to Walter's new ideas I have just had a 2hr drive, and been thinking about them myself! I am hoping to find a way to provide a structure, and being totally open to the suggestions of others. One further step is that I hope the group just goes on as normal, and that we do our . . . as yet un-named project in the list, prefixing the subject header with the word Project: I am getting it a little clearer, and would like to just think out loud about it here, and get some responses before I post the "Project Description". This mulling over wont go on for ever though, I have it about half written. All for now, Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:35:08 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: . . . yet somehow gathering energy, Simon, Our posts about the mirror crossed, literally. So there is an energy building in this small flow of posts . . . I also had a conversation with my friend Dan, who is "here" and has been reading some of this. He had been reading my post about making the psyche visable, and reminded me of the word we use for that in psychodrama: concretisation. In psychodrama the director will say things such as "choose someone to be your mother", or "be your headache and move as it would move if it had a body" and so on, concretisation. Making the psyche visible. Writing is a form of concretisation -- as the energy builds it might be useful to concretise that more fully on the web. I am thinking mainly of words, but with the powerful addition of hyperhinks. And of course the added effect of editing, highlighting the essence. In addition we could use pictures, etc. I'd prefer we moved slowly into this area. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 19:19:46 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: CHC-Dan Randow Subject: Re[2]: . . . it has been a while! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Fritz Talking about the asychronous nature of interaction in cyperspace you say >This introduces a more rational approach, leaving emotions somewhat at the side. The immediacy of the f2f group certainly lends itself to sponteneity. The value of that (in =any= group) to me is that the emotional life of the group is made apparent to all - whether we are explicitly or implicitly expressing our emotions. Yes, in a online group (except chat) we can carefully prepare and edit our posts. This gives us the opportunity to more articulately express our thoughts and emotions -or- to rationalise and cover our real inner selves. The reader, tho also has all the time in the world to read our lines and in between them. The scanning of text and interspersement of replies with replied-to text both stimulate sponteneity as well. We've all seen plenty of examples of this in psyber-l. Add a multi-media representation of the group life and we are seeing this phenomenon become more powerful. Dan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 19:23:51 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: CHC-Dan Randow Subject: Re: Speaking into silence... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Simon's... Speaking into silence, into stillness... watching thoughts once trapped and held down now ripple across the measureless surface of time, unfolding from within, meeting other minds, other bodies, cascading through networks that stretch the soul, speaking of and to the vast body held in silence, lost and found in meditation... holding the centre yet knowing there is no centre, only a falling away in order to fall together in order to fall away together... Yes, you. him >>> me Simon, what beautiful words , , , What a delight you are that you place yourself like this into a silent list. It almost seems violent to disrupt the peacefulness you evoke preceding our converstation. At the same time, I am filled with the fire ignited by Walter - collaborative filtering, sociometry, online concretisation - did you ever hear of such stuff. Sociometry is the science of - measurement of - metry - of social life. If psychology is about the individual (in the context of groups), sociometry is about the group (with respect to the individuals). Sociometry is also the application of what we learn about the group to stimulating change towards 'better' group functioning with respect to known goals. In a classical sociometric test we might elicit choices like 'indicate who you would choose to with' and map positive, negative, neutral 'tele' between people across specific dimensions. Might be mutual or, of course not. Still in the classical context, the choices are made concrete in some way ('put your hands on the shoulder of...' or a diagram 'sociogram') and then addressed by the group where they can be the catalyst of change and growth. A specific purpose. Flip sociometry back one level to 'individual' psychology where we examine the role of the social atom - picture the individual in the web or nest of present and past social links that bind us into life. Sociometry reveals a reflection of psyche. In psyberspace, it's easy to see sociometry. Dan chooses Simon to respond to about sociometry. We choose each other in psyber-l. We choose cyberspace because we are intrigued by psyche constituted by the millions which inhabit it (I know I do). Collaborative filtering is just one example of how mass sociometry can be done in cyberspace - as yet only applied to relatively narrow purposes (I've seen a half dozen movie/music sites using it - ask for the urls). It says choose all the people out there consistently making the same choices as you and check out what they say about sthg you don't know about yet. By itself, I envisage this becoming fundamental to the fabric of the net. Yahoo have (not remotely surprisingly) seen how url searching can be smartened by sociometry but more, won't every online zine or newspaper customise its pages for you and offer its advertisers the service of providing you with only the ads you indicate you want? A newly ethical form of commercialism, I think. The more I indicate my preferences, the more collabfilt constructs (a 'construct') a virtual representation of myself in psyberspace - a virtual other me (is that 'alter ego'?). Yes we can use this to choose toasters but there's more. If it cuts thru the 'information overload' of factual stuff it can somehow provide an environment where we can find new paths thru our pyschological lives. There is something here I haven't got yet. It's to do with online meeting, conferencing, drama, worship, learning, group therapy (that's all interesting enough to me) but it's magnified up a level so that we don't actually interact directly with each other (like we do here) but interact thru an environment of some kind that makes the particular manifestations of all the other people out there which are relevent to us. The online glass bead game seems the closest I have come across to this. There is something here... Dan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 01:54:27 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Circling, cycling... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Circling, cycling, swooping, diving down into the circle of my creation, I draw my own circle in imaginary sand that I might have a boundary to step across... Circling, cycling, swooping, diving down into the cycle of my birth-life-death, I follow my own cycle through imaginary lands that I might have a journey to change through... Circling, cycling, swooping, diving through the reflections of your screen into the warmth of your soul... Yes, you. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 01:54:35 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: The cycle unfolds... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And I say... "Your kind words invoke the touch of gold, a brilliance that kisses my soul, releasing these words of celebration to take flight back to you..." _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:14:26 +1100 Reply-To: stuartc@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Sender: Psybernet Mailing List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Stuart Currie Subject: Re: a moment... Hi Walter, Simon, Fritz, Doug, and all, I could give the time on the clock on my desk in front of me, but it doesn't really matter... Fritz, you wrote > > Looking at differences between a real group session and this > > psyber-space group I notoce that in a real group session the > > response to a statement is immediate, that is with a time constant > > given by the duration of the session. Hi Fritz, I read your message yesterday twice, trying to get myself into your shoes, ( hat) as you wrote, and found myself getting tied in knots. I am sure that if I persisted, I could 'get it' however, it would be at some cost I think, so I stopped, feeling that I wanted to 'shake you out of your head' > There is an eternal "now" that means I am here with you even if only > in my virtual space. Fritz, it was interesting for me to use the > "find" option and quickly re read all your posts to this list. Who > knows how you have changed, but my skimming, seems to have brought > you to life for me. I guess it is almost second nature as a > psychotherapist to "be in the here & now", to respond *as if* you > are here now. I find it easy. As soon as as one of the people I > work with begins to speak of the "past", it becomes the present. > The child is here in the room, and I ask questions such as: What > does the 10 year old feel as we talk about him like this? For some > people this is very healing as the child loves the attention and > needs it. > It is never too late in the eternal now. > I think this is exactly what it means when we say the soul is eternal. >I would be happy to get responses, for example, to anything I have written Well Walter, one of those moments we have referred to in private chats, uncatchable in words, but nevertheless very real has just happened. My heart is still racing a little from the realisation of the< now.> I have had the real- isation of the eternal now on other occasions, and sometimes havn't been aware as sharply as I was just then. For instance, I spent some of yesterday pottering in the garden, thinking of nothing in particular, totally absorbed in the business of the activity, then unobtrusively, thoughts of the future and past blended in with the experience and I became conscious of self again, without noticing. Hhowever there was a coming together of elements as I re read your words Fritz, then yours Walter. I realised that usine this medium over the last couple of months as I have been writing letters to friends,and there have been quite a few, that I have been unconscious of being in the here and now as I write. ...and immediately the self leaps in and congratulates itself for being so clever, and the momenht is lost. As I write this, the sense of that moment goes and I get caught up in the self consciousness of trying to capture it. I really value the "immediacy " I feel as I use this way of linking with Gaia, Thanks both of you for the moment, - it lasted about 3 seconds. Bye Stuart _________________________________________ Stuart Currie stuartc@chch.planet.org.nz _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 06:31:04 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Speaking into silence... In-Reply-To: Dan > Simon, what beautiful words , , , > > What a delight you are that you place yourself like this into a > silent list. > > It almost seems violent to disrupt the peacefulness you evoke > preceding our converstation. I have that sense, especially as I post the more structural stuff, proposals list descriptions etc. > At the same time, I am filled with the fire ignited by Walter - > collaborative filtering, sociometry, online concretisation - > did you ever hear of such stuff. fire ignited! Wow. > Sociometry is the science of - measurement of - metry - of > social life. I want to add here that this is not dry measurement. Moreno was utterly opposed to polls, surveys, which did not meet his requirement of . . . "maximum voluntary participation". He went way beyond even the relatively progressive "research by participant observers". Rather, the sociometrist, assist a group to do the research on the group itself. As such he saw the psychodrama group as a sociometric experiment. The methodology he introduced for working with people, is not only more ethical but more scientific, as it is not contaminated by the eyes of the observer. In the project I am about to launch here, you will see that I provide as little as possible about the content of the "experiment". There is some containment about suitable content -- that it pertains to the spirit of what is in the Psybernet Mailing List description, that keeps it relevant to this list. > Sociometry is also the application of what > we learn about the group to stimulating change towards 'better' > group functioning with respect to known goals. Yes. In that way there is no pretence of "impartiality". It is a group doing its thing. > In a classical sociometric test we might elicit choices like > 'indicate who you would choose to with' and map > positive, negative, neutral 'tele' between people across > specific dimensions. Might be mutual or, of course not. Yes, this is the group dynamics, pattern, which I do not hesitate to call the soul of the group. Once we see the ripples between people, we hear what Charles has called the virtual music of the links. > Still in the classical context, the choices are made concrete > in some way ('put your hands on the shoulder of...' or a > diagram 'sociogram') and then addressed by the group where they > can be the catalyst of change and growth. A specific purpose. There is the all important notion of establishing the criteria. it can be done very naturall, for example, "It appears that there is a group that has become interested in *the nature of the moment in cyberspace.* another group is focussing on *sociometry in cyberspace* lets explore this by . . . The definition of the criteria too come from the group. I often ask the group: is there something you would like to see us explore. Recently in a f2f group someone asked to see continuums of contentment in our primary relationships. Interesting. > Flip sociometry back one level to 'individual' psychology where > we examine the role of the social atom - picture the individual > in the web or nest of present and past social links that bind > us into life. Sociometry reveals a reflection of psyche. > > In psyberspace, it's easy to see sociometry. Dan chooses Simon > to respond to about sociometry. We choose each other in > psyber-l. We choose cyberspace because we are intrigued by > psyche constituted by the millions which inhabit it (I know I > do). Could also be that there are forces, dynamics, archetypes at work, that are expressing themselves through us. I like that way of seeing it, as so often we feel compelled to choose (to use two contradictory words.) The psyche is like a landscape. It has an impact on us, it is just that it is invisible. Dan, you are doing an excellent job of amplifying all these concepts. I hope that my adding all these complexities does not undo your good work. > There is something here I haven't got yet. It's to do with > online meeting, conferencing, drama, worship, learning, group > therapy (that's all interesting enough to me) but it's > magnified up a level so that we don't actually interact > directly with each other (like we do here) but interact thru an > environment of some kind that makes the particular > manifestations of all the other people out there which are > relevent to us. The online glass bead game seems the closest I > have come across to this. I am really looking forward to exploring this with you here and f2f, and in a combination of both. I agree about the GBG. Wonderful. The Project I am about to post is a result of my learning in the Dream Event, where we use the WaterBird board. In a sense I think I am suggesting we do something similar, but where we build the board, the web hypertext as we go along. It would be correct to call it in the GBG tradition, however, I want to explore this without the use of the word "game" as it introduces some difficulties, which of course can be overcome as well. Great to see all this coming into the list! > There is something here... We'll find it! Warm wishes, Walter. _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:38:38 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Can Psyber-L stand for Psyber-Laboratory Hi, to all in the Psybernet Mailing List, to Dan and Walter, I appreciate very much your thoughtful comments to my recent remarks on Psyberspace and this group Psyber-L. The fundamental question which occupies me for some time and which I should like to raise is: what makes Psyber-space so different from other means of group communications ? As we agree, f2f-groups have more of the immediate emotional response in it than Psyber-L. In Psyber-L, we have time to tune our response letting the initial impulsive reaction to sublime into a more carefully worded reponse. One the other hand, the response can be immediate (within hours or days) and it is addressed simultaneously to a relatively large number of people. But, how is this different from the usual discussion group on Internet or on a larger time span from the scientific process of knowledge gaining by papers in Journals, responses by phone, e-mail and alike. Where is the specific component which is described by the incorporation of the sylables *cyber-*(cybernetics of 2nd kind) or, here, *psyber-*(psychology and cybernetics) into the the description of the medium - *cyberspace* or *psyberspace*. My emotions are excited if I read a newspaper report on some attrocities in Bosnia, if I see a tv-coverage on some distant place on earth, or if I read a novel as for instance *a son of the circus*. The same type of emotional response is brought forward by reading the messages of Psyber-L. I enjoy the poetry of S. Trask and of the former Tama Neil, it's an additional bonus of being subscribed to Psyber-L. I liked the description of Moreno's sociometry given by Dan. As you may have seen from my earlier messages I am very much interested in the experimental potential which Psyber-L represents. That's all for now, regards, FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:40:53 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: My Morning with Miles Hi all, Miles, who some may recall from this list, though not currently subbed, came to visit. We have spent the morning looking at many of the developments here. It was delightful to be with him, and our meeting was inspiring, for us both I think, and will lead to more development on Psybernet. Miles' enthusiasm and praise of Psybernet was great to hear. It was good to meet with a mathematician, computer whiz, and someone familiar with psychodrama, sociometry, who had experienced the Glass bead game here with Charles and HooN. Some of the things we discussed: = Peterson Graph = Another 10 position board. One where each position links to 3 others, very interesting . . . . made me think about the nature of the WaterBird board with its diversity of links, where position 9 has far more links than say position 2. The links remain the same even though the map can be drawn in two ways. I have drawn the pictures, and posted them to the web at http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/peters1.htm How this relates to the current warm-up: All of this is still a good warm up to the project which I am drafting. The idea I have is to map an email discussion to the web, not using any particular board but to let the group dynamics "speak" and produce the image that the themes and interactions. I see this job as a job of sorting and linking text or emails using human creativity as opposed to the rules a computer might use such as sort by date, author, subject etc. The "web scribe" might sort by mood, theme, conflict, harmony . . . and be guided by the group in this. More when I post the Project Description. = viewing data = We discussed the above too, getting clearer that the web could be used not simply to provide a view of the archives (Future Culture does this well for their list see http://www.futurec.org/~osadchuk/futurec/archives.html) We are aiming to use the web to provide a more permanent record, and more essential feedback to the email list. We are already doing this in the Dream Group, and in the glass bead games, it was delightful in our discussion to see it in this more universally applicable way. In a world of information overload, we need to develop a way of presenting a whole discussion as a hypertext version of a haiku. = Tools = In our discussion we saw that the primacy lies with human interaction, and with people creating the view into the process, however, there seemed to be a place for developing better tools to do this job, and Miles is looking into writing some java aplets that might help in this regard. = Formed Text = We envisaged text, emails with millions of hyperlinks but favoured a tighter format. Somewhat like the Positions in the games we have been doing. A Pattern Language is a good model for this. Thus imagine a group being presented in texts, which are linked in complex ways, perhaps represented in a complex graphic, but each "positionless position using a defineite format. Perhaps no more than 4 links, using such titles as: This comes before. This comes after. This jars. This resonates. This says much the same thing. This compliments. A link to A Pattern Language for HTML, though It would not work just now: http://www.anamorph.com/docs/patterns/default.html ~~~ We discussed heaps more and I am looking forward to a lunch with Dan & miles tomorrow. I'll report bacK, Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:51:52 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Lunch Lunch with Dan & Miles, It was pleasant, we chatted about the potential effect on us of organising our choices, and hardware that ultimately relates to our spirituality. Who do we really meet when we choose and get feedback? All leading back to the basic idea of viewing our connections and interactions in meaningful ways. One of the practical things Miles wants to do, is develop a software tool for mapping linked "formed texts" to a graphical image. A bit like the WaterBird board in reverse. Here are the texts, here is how they link, here is the board. It does not preclude "empty" texts either, so there is great potential there. It all sounds very technical I know, but behind that we are very enthusiastic. I think we share the vision of a meaningful medium, more meaningful perhaps than the other huge waves of change that other media have led to. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 00:15:13 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Can Psyber-L stand for Psyber-Laboratory Collaborative work in Psyber-L. Can we work effectively together at all! Let alone on these *Personal* Computers. What is the role of leadership? One emerging idea is that in Psyberspace -- *Interaction wants to be free*. Freud and Jung were doctors, hence they could charge for providing health. Attending to soul moved out of the church into the medical profession. A necessary move, making modern psychotherapy possible. Now psychotherapy aches to move beyond health, into secular soul work, thus escaping the chattels of church and medicine. No wonder we look to Glass Bead Games. Psybernet is a way assisting work with the psyche into a new realm. From the start "users" here have called what we do Psybernetting, no one sees it as akin to psychotherapy, but it remains hard for me to shed that model. Collaborative work with the psyche in Psyber-L. Can we work effectively together at all! Let alone on these *Personal* Computers, are personal no more, and a group life is very *suddenly* upon us, in a world that is in a phase of ultra individualism. If we can do it here in a depthful way, then we will know a lot about all sorts of work over the wires. What is the role of leadership? Back to the old Psybernet questions; how to facilitate? Produce? Direct? Participate? ~~~ In Psyberspace -- *Interaction wants to be free*. Just as it would seem that people need not pay for information here, nor do we need to pay for the most meaninful attention to our psyche here, it abounds! Partly of course because we a journeying, doing psychological work as we go. I am undergoing a shift on how Psybernet can obtain its revenue. It is not repackaged psychotherapy or group work. ~~~ Freud and Jung were doctors, hence they could charge for providing health. Attending to soul moved out of the church into the medical profession. A necessary move, making modern psychotherapy possible. Now psychotherapy aches to move beyond health, into truly secular soul work, thus escaping the chattels of church and medicine. No wonder we look to Glass Bead Games. Psybernet is a way assisting work with the psyche into a new realm. From the start "users" here have called what we do Psybernetting, we know it is not psychotherapy, but it remains hard to shed that model. If the work ever seems too much like therapy, there is a repulsion. ~~~ Lets re think leadership in this medium, list facilitation, ownership, and the leadership Charles has in the Glass Bead games, which he is reluctant to call Magister Ludi. I began repackaging psychotherapy, the old Professional services page on the web still reflects that. It has been well noted in Jungian circles that therapy involves the transformation of the therapist. That *counter* transference is as important as the patient's transference. In psychodrama too, it is part of the oral tradition to say that all the dramas in the group reflect the unconscious of the director, I have found this to be true. That aspect of psychotherapy and psychodrama has nor been taken to the limit within those disciplines. It can't be done there, they are part of the old medium. ~~~ It is aptly called psyberspace. This medium is psychological in its nature, interaction abounds, we are all immersed in a psychological space. The only way I can really be here is to self disclosure, to let my counter transference be here, ie *my* projections into the silence. Between the lines we read the psyche. No longer repackaging, but letting the process define what we do here. It is liberating, I am freer to participate, I am not the therapist. The new role is not defined, but I likening it to the alchemist. And yes, Fritz, that makes Psybernet a laboratory. I see everyone of us here as an alchemist. Not all of us have the same functional or structural position. There is a lot of power / responsibility invested in "List owners" not only by the software, but by the interrelated fact that they write up the original list description, they are initiators of the lab and the focus of its work. We must not underestimate the power of the warm-up, the history. The origins are worth acknowledging. People here enter into a public space that is also "owned". In the *Psybernet ~ Web Project* I am drafting, I am clear that I am not an unpaid leader. I *participate* for my own satisfaction. Take on leadership roles, as an avenue for my creative urges, for my desire to explore the psyche in this way. Other participants are not clients . . . we are co-creators, perhaps others are auxiliaries in something I am creating? Perhaps they will use the form to do their own alchemy? This may sound arrogant on my part, to be shedding a role I never had, relationships that others do not see themselves in . . . bear with me, I am in the role of psychotherapist in a culture that subscribes to a health model during my working week, I have been trained to think in terms of these roles, and am paid to be there ultimately for the benefit of my clients. In my day job (apart from the fee) any benefit to me, in the way of personal development is secondary, not my focus, never the focus of the client. Here all that is utterly different. Our interactions are not for a fee, as they are in psychotherapy. Nore are they utterly for the benefit of *one* party, the client. Psybernet will need to obtain revenue, not as a fee for attending in email to one another. Who paid the alchemists? It was well known that the alchemical work would not work if it was done for the gold, even though the gold was the desired outcome. I will change the pages on the web that relate to Psybernet Professional Services. The word professional might even need to go from the Psyber-L description? As the true identity of the work emerges, I have a sense that its sources of revenue will also become clearer. What do you think? Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 01:46:48 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Can Psyber-L stand for Psyber-Laboratory In-Reply-To: <960809203838_101632.3701_JHF127-1@CompuServe.COM> FRITZ, Hi, I have been "here" working way on the outline for the web document that is part of the project, in the small gaps in a busy week. At the same time response to your post has been incubating, combining several threads, one of which I have just posted. > As we agree, f2f-groups have more of the immediate emotional response in it > than Psyber-L. Not quite. I have *immediate* response, and can express that *immediately*. When the massage is received the impact can also be immediate. The two immediate events are asynchronistic. > In Psyber-L, we have time to tune our response letting the > initial impulsive reaction to sublime into a more carefully worded reponse. In rl too we delay and mull over our responses. A good thing too. There was such pressure to say things at the time or not at all, a philosophy that simply silences us. Fritz, I am not really disagreeing, simply adding the exceptions, the fine tuning, to your main idea, which is in a direction I am wanting to move. > But, how is this different from the usual discussion group on Internet All internet communication has these features. I think there is an aspect of psyberspace to all cyberspace. This list like all lists has its group feel, its climate, its dynamics, its origins and will be different from other lists. > larger time span from the scientific process of knowledge gaining by papers in > Journals, responses by phone, e-mail and alike. There is perhaps some temenos around a scientific community. Perhaps it is a matter of degree, however I have a sense that Psybernet has a containment that is its own. When the whole project was on one BBS (now closed) there was a different feel to it, now, as a web site, and some lists it is more flexible, but has lost some of the unity, Miles mentioned this f2f the other day, and was hoping that archiving the list on the web might change that. > Where is the specific > component which is described by the incorporation of the sylables > *cyber-*(cybernetics of 2nd kind) or, here, *psyber-*(psychology and > cybernetics) into the the description of the medium - *cyberspace* or > *psyberspace*. I am still attracted to the cyber prefix, and certainly the terms cyberspace and especially psyberspace. It is not cybernetics that I think of, but more of the way these wds capture *experience* of this realm. While in retrospect we can see that there was always a cyberspace, -- monks transcribing books etc, belonging to esoteric thought-realms contained in technological edifices called churches etc. -- the qualitative leap we have made of *being* was captured by William gibson with "cyberspace" and Jarron Lanier's (sp) "virtual reality". We have that here, in a way that the prototypes did not have. > My emotions are excited if I read a newspaper report on some > attrocities in Bosnia, if I see a tv-coverage on some distant place on earth, > or if I read a novel as for instance *a son of the circus*. The same type of > emotional response is brought forward by reading the messages of Psyber-L. I > enjoy the poetry of S. Trask and of the former Tama Neil, it's an additional > bonus of being subscribed to Psyber-L. > I liked the description of Moreno's sociometry given by Dan. Ah yes, Psyber-L as entertainment, news, sport. I notice you do not mention therapy. > As you may have > seen from my earlier messages I am very much interested in the experimental > potential which Psyber-L represents. Yes, what is the experiment, work, opus, event, that you would like to "research"? Walter, Enjoying psyberspace . . . _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 03:04:13 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: PWP: Psybernet ~ Web Project. Description & Invitiation === Psybernet List ~ Web Project. === Description. This is a proposal for collaborative work, of a psychological nature, using Psyber-L, and the Psybernet web site. The project will focus on the themes and topics in the Psybernet Mailing List description, posted to this list recently, and available at: http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/p_conf.html Some preliminary work is on the web to be used in the project. You can see it now, and get a feel for what is to come at: http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/project.htm The participants will determine the specific content and the name for the project. This Project Description provides the guidelines for the process. Time Frame. The starting date will be announced in Psyber-L. There is no set time for completion, the project will conclude when all the steps are completed. It is intended to be a brief experience, not requiring a huge time commitment. While the process will have its own life, you will see that the timing is gently contained in the framework explained here. We have learnt that there may be ebbs and flows in email groups, just how the tides flow in this project will influence the overall length of the work. Participants. We need at least three to make a group, and no more than eight, the restriction is intended to prevent the volume of posts from being overwhelming. Even eight people can produce a lot of material! Believe me. I see myself as a participant, with additional roles as specified below. The project will follow these steps. 1. Enrolment. People state by posts to Psyber-L that they want to be involved. We move on to the next step when we have 8 people, or within a week or two, as long as we have at least 3. 2. Introduction. Lets hear from each and all. Background, current situation, personal aspirations in this venture. Some responding to each other. Walter will begin to concretise these introductions on to the web. Comments and suggestions about this essential, as we are already making a web production. 3. Themes, topics, links. Each participant posts more specifically what they want to see, achieve, experience, do, in this project. Make links. Name themes. Watch the web as we go . . . make suggestions as to the mirror that evolves there, let it guide our emailing. 4. From complexity to simplicity. Using the web to "see" the group we will define one main task, perhaps more, that satisfies, combines, integrates, the various interests and themes. We name our project. Exactly how this is done is to be discovered. 5. Do it. We express more fully our main interest and concern. Whatever it is. We are in a public list, and making a lasting document, on a public web site. I can imagine what sorts of things we might do, but I do not want to pre-empt. What ever it is, it will be relatively short and contained, it may be an introduction to something to be continued later in another PsyberGroup. 6. Closure. Sharing and processing, a closing date is set -- again the essence will be on the web in some way. Facilitation & The Job of Web Scribe. My participation includes these jobs. I will attend to the timing, and other factors to keep our group coherent. I will do the posting to the web. I will endeavour to use the principle of "from the people to the people". It will be great if, as we go, we make comments in the posts about the process. As I am a participant, I do not make objective representation of the group (as if that were ever possible). Let's accept that the role of scribe here demands some creativity and vision, and will be coming from, through? my intuition, insight, perspective . . . with help. I will endeavour to keep my ego out of the way, and let "the weaver" come through. Once something is on the web, that does not mean it is final. It can be easily changed in the light of discussion. We will use "formed text" for some of the web material, and explain more about this as we go long. Once the participants learn the "form", posts to the list can be close to "web ready", but there is no need to conform any format, that will happen in the scribing. Observers. As the writing takes place in Psyber-L there is plenty of opportunity for comment outside of the "Project" on the list, this is welcome and will assist the process. All members of Psyber-L, please comment. Comments from non-project list members will not be included in the work on the web. This is a "fish bowl", a group within a list. Interaction between all is encouraged. Interacting active observers. Topic Prefix. Enrolled Project participants are asked to prefix posts intended for the project PWP: Standing for Psybernet Web Project. This indicates that the post is part of the Project group and may be used in the web scribing. People not enrolled are asked to refrain from the use this prefix in replies etc, however should this happen it will be clear to us that they are not enrolled, and are one of our valued active observers. Project on the Web. A start has already been made and is on the web at this moment at http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/project.htm You can click through some of the structures and empty formed texts to get the feel of what we are about. (Of course you may be reading this at a time when the whole thing is complete, hope you like it!) General Comments. From time to time I will announce that we are moving on to the next step and ask for specific posts from All. If participants are absent for the work for more than a few days please let us know, in the list. If you get behind, please read the last 5 posts, and respond to those, and catch up later. It is possible to cut and paste from the web, and use that material in posts. The work on the web will be in a fixed pitched font, such as Courier New. Some of the email may also be best viewed this way, check the font settings. We may wish to include graphics on the Web. Primarily this work is in ascii (ordinary text) and will remain comprehensible through a non graphical browser. The discussions prior to this post in Psybernet Mailing List starting in August 96 would make useful reading to participants and interested others. They are available in the Psybernet archives. Respect. Even though all the posts to Psyber-L are archived and public, it is a little different having them highlighted on the Web, in a file that has more permanence. Hence, please say whether you wish your contributions to be presented anonymously or by name, and to suggest any other changes that will preserve both the privacy of individuals concerned and the depthful expression of the project as a whole. Participants may wish to use the material on the web in presentations, for non profit use. All material remains copyright of Psybernet and the authors, and permission to use it in any way will need to be sought by non-participants. How to enrol: If you would like to be a participant in this experimental piece of work, let us know in the list. Other comments are wlcome too of course. Look forward to hearing from you, Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 13:36:15 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: To multiple recipients >Not quite. I have *immediate* response, and can express that *immediately*. When the massage is received the impact can also be immediate. The two immediate events are asynchronistic. It seems to be the same problem of simultaneousness as in the theory of relativity. Two events are considered to be simultaneous when the information that the event takes place at point A has reached the site of the second event at point B with the speed of light. Here, the velocity is governed by the retrieval of the message, the reading and the response. > In rl too we delay and mull over our responses. A good thing too. There was such pressure to say things at the time or not at all, a philosophy that simply silences us. Yes, I think it is an advantage of the List-Group that we are allowed a longer delay for the response than in a real group. > I am still attracted to the cyber prefix, and certainly the terms cyberspace and especially psyberspace. It is not cybernetics that I think of, but more of the way these wds capture *experience* of this realm. While in retrospect we can see that there was always a cyberspace, -- monks transcribing books etc, belonging to esoteric thought-realms contained in technological edifices called churches etc. -- the qualitative leap we have made of *being* was captured by William gibson with "cyberspace" and Jarron Lanier's (sp) "virtual reality". We have that here, in a way that the prototypes did not have. Your definition of cyber-space is a very pertinent one since it describes the spiritual and intellectual community of people interacting by messages. In former centuries it took longer to arrive at this state, sometimes it took several generations. Nowadays we have better technical possibilities for this interaction. > Ah yes, Psyber-L as entertainment, news, sport. I notice you do not mention therapy. Everything should not be dead serious. There is nothing wrong in getting pleasure out of certain aspects of Psyber-L and additional Lustgewinn! > Yes, what is the experiment, work, opus, event, that you would like to "research"? In earlier posts it was mentioned by someone that in a given group a few percent of the participants cover the floor all the time. To me it seems the same here. If I look at the list of members I find many names of whom I have not read any comments. Walter, you describe in the Psyber-L write-up that the art of leadership of List-serv groups is one of the topics. Here, certainly we have a field to explore how to encourage participation without having the systems clogged up by hundreds of messages. There was a suggestion by Mila Klemm some 4 months ago to summarize ceratin aspects of the discussion. This could be a way to channel the flood of expression if it occurs. I think there are many other practical aspects of this sort which could be investigated. Best regards, FRITZ enjoying the marginal aspects of psyberspace, too _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:23:19 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Pixy Ferris Subject: Re: PWP: Psybernet ~ Web Project. Description & Invitiation In-Reply-To: <3213e2fb.456456456@Mail.cyberxpress.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Walter and all on the list I have been observing the recent resurgence of activity on the list with great pleasure. All conversation had ceased for a while, or was very sporadic, and I have am gad to see that it's still very much alive. I have to confess to being a contributor to the silence myself, but (as an academic) the summer is traditionally a time of travel and rest, and I have not been able to check in on my email regularly, let alone post. But this new project (the PWP) reallly excites me and I would definitely like to express my interest to participate. Unfortunately I'm heading out of town (again!) tonight, so won't be able to become active until September. But I would definitely like to be counted in if possible, and am really looking forward to it! So if you have other grousp that form late, or are willing to admit members in a couple of weeks, let me know... Hope you all have a happy and productive fortnight,a nd I will catch up wheni get back. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:35:08 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: PWP: Psybernet ~ Web Project. Description & Invitiation In-Reply-To: Pixy I hope this catches you before you go. > this new project (the PWP) reallly excites me and I would definitely like > to express my interest to participate. You are in! I am happy to have a slow start, as it might be helpful not to overlap with the dream group. If I could have contained myself until that ended I would have. That group of course is making its own ending, in its own way, and doing it well. I can't predict the date! This PWP needs general discussion and some of also there are some matters Fritz has raised . . . let us let the starting date *emerge* from our enrolment process. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:48:14 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: To multiple recipients, especially Fritz. In-Reply-To: <960817173614_101632.3701_JHF69-1@CompuServe.COM> Fritz > It seems to be the same problem of simultaneousness as in the theory of > relativity. Two events are considered to be simultaneous when the information > that the event takes place at point A has reached the site of the second event > at point B with the speed of light. The analogy is probably a good one. In a direct expreiential sense it all fits -- I experience being with you right now. > Your definition of cyber-space is a very pertinent one since it describes the > spiritual and intellectual community of people interacting by messages. In > former centuries it took longer to arrive at this state, sometimes it took > several generations. Nowadays we have better technical possibilities for this > interaction. Yes, I am just conscious that more than technical means are required. To inhabit such a "space' requires people with some skills and ettiquete -or norms, - look how far the churches went in that direction, and corporations today. > > Ah yes, Psyber-L as entertainment, news, sport. I notice you do not > mention therapy. > > Everything should not be dead serious. There is nothing wrong in getting > pleasure out of certain aspects of Psyber-L and additional Lustgewinn! Of course, I was pleased you did not include therapy. What is Lustgewinn? It sounds like on of those words which there is no real English equivalent for, is that the case? ~~~ > > Yes, what is the experiment, work, opus, event, that you would like to > "research"? > art of leadership of List-serv groups is one of the topics. Here, certainly we > have a field to explore how to encourage participation without having the > systems clogged up by hundreds of messages. There was a suggestion by Mila > Klemm some 4 months ago to summarize ceratin aspects of the discussion. This > could be a way to channel the flood of expression if it occurs. An excellent question that I think unpacks into many: The who, when and how of it, each of those with many sub categorties. > I think there are many other practical aspects of this sort which could be > investigated. In a way the PWP, the project I have put forward is *one* way to "concretise interaction" to summarise it, to collaboratively work towards chanelling the flood of expression as it occurs. One way of many, but one on the agenda. How about coming in on that experiment? As there is no definite topic, the interests you express could feature in PWP. It is what I have heard called "self reflexive" to use the media to explore the media. I like that. As in the movie "The Player". All for now, Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:37:35 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Have you noticed? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings to all, Time for me to take another dip in the lake, wanting not so much to disturb its tranquility as to observe the tranquil interaction of my movement with its stillness. I find the silences and the non-silences of Psyber-L fascinating. The effect is like some kind of slow-motion dance of the spheres, orbiting, encountering, touching, withdrawing... "Have you ever found yourself more aware of the space than of the concrete forms which delineate it?" he asked. "It's a fascinating reversal. The effect produced in me is one of tranquillity and wonderment. My mind quietens, my body slows into stillness. I watch, I just watch." I am negotiating my relationship with movement and stillness. I am pulling myself together for you. I am a writer. This is my space. "Have you noticed how time and space are becoming interchangeable concepts?" he asked. "It's a fascinating cohesion. The effect produced in me is one of disorientation and dismay. Do I need space to discover my own time or do I need time to discover my own space? Why is it that space and time are collapsing in on me and I don't know which is which any more?" I am negotiating my relationship with time and space. I am pulling myself apart for you. I am a writer. This is my time. "Have you noticed?" he said, looking you straight in the eye. "I am watching you watching me. I am not your character." simon, blinking curiously into white space during day time... _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 04:50:45 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Walter and multiple recipients Hi to all of you, Walter described his PWP and wrote > It is what I have heard called "self reflexive" to use the media to explore the media. This is an endeveour similar to the origin of life or the self organization of systems from chaos. Some months ago there was a brief discussion of autopoiesis. There is a difference, though, it took life some 3 billion years to emerge (you can see the earliest messages of life in the Washington DC Museum of Natural History). We don't have this time. On the other hand, we know already a lot about communication and psychology of human interaction. In the emergence of life the development process was adjusted to the environment by trial and error. The main criterion of success is survival and reproduction and propagation. This is still true to-day (Is mankind a successful trial or a fatal error ?). What is the description of the environment called psyber-space ? What are the criteria the system (the group of eight at PWP) in the cyberspace needs for survival (survival in the sense of a fruitful experience). Analogies are always limited, but my feelings and thoughts go in the direction indicated by the statements given above. > How about coming in on that experiment? Yes, I am very much interested in the project. I looked at the WWW-site (http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/project.htm) describing some details. My only concern is my absence from my terminal from October 3rd to approximately October 20. If this is OK, I'll join. > What is Lustgewinn? It sounds like on of those words which there is no real English equivalent for, is that the case? I looked it up in the dictionary, but no entry. Literally translated it means "Gain of pleasure". But it contains a deeper connotation since the word *Lust* (= lust in English) is a key-word in behavioral science. Simon, I like your poetic desription of the psyber-space - or is it a psyber-lake ? Best regards, FRITZ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:52:25 +0000 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Simon G. Trask" Subject: Re: Walter and multiple recipients Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Fritz wrote: >Simon, I like your poetic desription of the psyber-space - or is it a >psyber-lake ? and Simon stands on the shoreline, dips a toe in the water and waves to Fritz on the far shore... "FRITZ!" he yells out. "I THINK IT CAN BE BOTH SPACE AND LAKE! WHAT SAY YOU?" words ripple through air, echo across water. . . the fish, hearing strange vibrations, wonder what space is... _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:45:22 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Walter and multiple recipients In-Reply-To: > "FRITZ!" he yells out. "I THINK IT CAN BE BOTH SPACE AND LAKE! WHAT SAY YOU?" > words ripple through air, echo across water. . . > the fish, hearing strange vibrations, wonder what space is... I am camping by the lake. I have made a place . . . there is a fire with a billy boiling. My tent is pitched. A little hut in the background, a few others in side. Interesting to read though the hut book a few have been here before . . . A days walk away there is another hut . . . Look at those guys by the lake . . . I love this place . . . Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:58:52 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: PWP: coming aboard In-Reply-To: <960820085045_101632.3701_JHF122-1@CompuServe.COM> FRITZ, > My only concern is my absence from my terminal from October 3rd to > approximately October 20. If this is OK, I'll join. Of course . . . already the flow and structure of the Project group is forming. You will be able to "catch up" when you return. Of course that is not the same as reading them as they come in, but then who does that? In asynchronous time each persons flow of the email is to their taste. Some people might get this in Digest form etc. This would not be a good medium for a car chase. Alfred Hitchcock said that the chase was perfect for the film medium. Once the film starts there is no getting out. It has the linearity of a chase. This medium is better for reading between the lines. Great to have you join the fish in the bowl -- lets make that lake. Walter ~~~ "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>, On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 04:50:45 EDT "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote: > Hi to all of you, > > Walter described his PWP and wrote > > > It is what I have heard called "self reflexive" to use the media to > explore the media. > > This is an endeveour similar to the origin of life or the self organization of > systems from chaos. Some months ago there was a brief discussion of > autopoiesis. There is a difference, though, it took life some 3 billion years > to emerge (you can see the earliest messages of life in the Washington DC > Museum of Natural History). We don't have this time. On the other hand, we > know already a lot about communication and psychology of human interaction. In > the emergence of life the development process was adjusted to the environment > by trial and error. The main criterion of success is survival and reproduction > and propagation. This is still true to-day (Is mankind a successful trial or a > fatal error ?). What is the description of the environment called psyber-space > ? What are the criteria the system (the group of eight at PWP) in the > cyberspace needs for survival (survival in the sense of a fruitful > experience). > Analogies are always limited, but my feelings and thoughts go in the direction > indicated by the statements given above. > > > How about coming in on that experiment? > Yes, I am very much interested in the project. I looked at the WWW-site > (http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/project.htm) describing some details. > My only concern is my absence from my terminal from October 3rd to > approximately October 20. If this is OK, I'll join. > > > What is Lustgewinn? It sounds like on of those words which there is no > real English equivalent for, is that the case? > > I looked it up in the dictionary, but no entry. Literally translated it means > "Gain of pleasure". But it contains a deeper connotation since the word *Lust* > (= lust in English) is a key-word in behavioral science. > > Simon, I like your poetic desription of the psyber-space - or is it a > psyber-lake ? > > Best regards, FRITZ _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:19:04 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Bent B=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F8gedal Christoffersen ?= Subject: From a Newcomer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Walter and Everybody Let me as a very new newcomer allow me to respond to all the interesting letters I have seen so far. Its very very interesting, to read about what the project PWP is = all about I'm not sure that I will join a group yet, as I'm not quite sure = that I can fully get time enough that I imagine is necessary ( I think that it = must be a matter for discussion how much are the group expecting from its members.) I think that there must be some social process that will be awaken = in such = a group, my point of wiev is that it must be important to get = answers if you do the work and I'm not that good in expressing myself in = English,so I have to make some translation ,dictionary ect.. Has anybody any experience in the matter. And although I have done a lot of psychotherapy work it have nearly always been in my own langues I have not any experiment with participating in a Mailing List and = have to learn the hole set of the technical side of it. = But learnig is what this is all about, so I allow myself to ask silly questions. As I'm sitting here and reading the mail from August I'm aware of = the feelings that I get reading, and I must say that the atmosphere is = of a = very warm and intense kind of feeling. I had never thought that a mailing list could produce anything that was similar to be in a "live group" although most off the = writing is about the media itself and not so much directly about people themselves,but offcoause I understand and feel that there is a lot = between the lines. Its obvious to me that even the "silence" between the mail is of a = very importen kind of silence or is it holes or psyberholes as there is = not a sound.anywhere, perhaps is this a similar experience a blind or deaf would experience from being in a group You can communicate but not hear or see or feel or smell but still you experience feelings of being in a group, strange !!! And who are these people ?? The process of imagine the real person behind the writing, is very intense if I come to think about it, and like reading a book and then see the picture made from the book, is not always good, its important to make ones own pictures. = I must say that all of the content makes me thinking a lot of all = the possibilities there is in the PWP But then again is=B4n there a kind of global brainstorm going on at the moment, about the www and what shall we do with it and what good could it bring?? = = I feel a little behind it seems to be people that know all about = the dreamgroup and the hole psyber-l history but where is that = dreamgroup? It seems that there is a lot of experience that must be read, is there = anything about the process so far ? And can anybody give me as a newcomer advise how to go on and what is important when you reflect is there any special rules that is = good to know so I don't have to use trial and error methods??? = So far so good. = Bent _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:15:20 +1100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kathryn and Richard Pleasance Subject: From a Newcomer also MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I thought that I should introduce myself as well. My name is Miles Thompson - though my email address would make a lie of that - SORRY! I'm temporarily using someone elses email account. Anyway, I'm originally from the same town as Walter and am friends with his son - Josh, so thats kinda how I got involved with this group. That was a while ago actually, I was involved in the Psybernet BBS and in the internet list last year. It was a very exciting far out experience for me, but unfortunately when I moved I lost contact with the experience. Now I am in Melbourne which is real exciting (bigger than anywhere I've ever been) and I am keen to get re-involved with the whole Psybernet experience and participate in le groups and la experience. My background in this whole psycho trip is for me greatly affected by my experience of (RL) psychodrama, sociodrama and Morenian theory. As a citizen I work in computers, and I've been working on maybe making a tool to help Walter with the Psybernet Web site. Recently I passed through Christchurch on my way to Melbourne, and I had a big talk with Walter and Dan Randow about that which I believe may have been reported on this list. To those few of you who may remember me - Hi! I've been thinking a lot about you while I've been away. To those who won't remember me - Hi! I hope we can be friends... Ok seeya. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:48:11 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Bent B=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F8gedal Christoffersen ?= Subject: Re: From a Newcomer also MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kathryn and Richard Pleasance wrote: > = > Hi, > I thought that I should introduce myself as well. > My name is Miles Thompson - though my email address would make a lie of > that - SORRY! I'm temporarily using someone elses email account. > Anyway, I'm originally from the same town as Walter and am friends with > his son - Josh, so thats kinda how I got involved with this group. That > was a while ago actually, I was involved in the Psybernet BBS and in the > internet list last year. It was a very exciting far out experience for > me, but unfortunately when I moved I lost contact with the experience. > Now I am in Melbourne which is real exciting (bigger than anywhere I've > ever been) and I am keen to get re-involved with the whole Psybernet > experience and participate in le groups and la experience. > My background in this whole psycho trip is for me greatly affected by my > experience of (RL) psychodrama, sociodrama and Morenian theory. As a > citizen I work in computers, and I've been working on maybe making a > tool to help Walter with the Psybernet Web site. Recently I passed > through Christchurch on my way to Melbourne, and I had a big talk with > Walter and Dan Randow about that which I believe may have been reported > on this list. > To those few of you who may remember me - Hi! I've been thinking a lot > about you while I've been away. To those who won't remember me - Hi! I > hope we can be friends... Ok seeya. > = > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-LThank You = Miles with all my heart!! I Think it`s a very good ideea to intoduce one self so there for You and everybody else I hope that I have included my = Homepage hello there You 183 Mail Psyber-l menmbers = do You have anything to Mail,nothing intellectual, no sience nothing that nobody can write about??? hello were are You??? try something that have never been here before Maybe I=B4m not a pro but i`m I person who wants somethig to GO Come on everybody So far so good -- = Bent B=F8gedal Christoffersen Galgebakken Skr=E6nt 4 - 8 b 2620 Albertslund http://www.cybernet.dk/users/bbc/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:55:52 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Bent B=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F8gedal Christoffersen ?= Subject: The Past MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Helo there I`m a Newcommer I`m reading the june lettters going back Learning about the past I must say its a lot different from = the August letters a lot of aggression, a lot of ....I don`t know??? >It couldent have been beatiful>What = Tell me please what is beutiful (Sorry my English??) So far so good. -- = Bent B=F8gedal Christoffersen Galgebakken Skr=E6nt 4 - 8 b 2620 Albertslund http://www.cybernet.dk/users/bbc/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:14:22 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: From a Newcomer In-Reply-To: <3223F2E8.CE3@cybernet.dk> Bent, A warm welcome. > Let me as a very new newcomer allow me to respond to > all the interesting letters I have seen so far. > Its very very interesting, to read about what the project PWP is = > > all about I am thinking about it a lot, and more discussion here befor we actually have a starting date is fine. > I'm not sure that I will join a group yet, as I'm not quite sure = > that I can > fully get time enough that I imagine is necessary ( I think that it = > must be a > matter for discussion how much are the group expecting from its > members.) I guess regular contact with the group is required, don't forget that the time is very flexible here. > if you do the work and I'm not that good in expressing myself in = > English,so I have to make some translation ,dictionary ect.. > Has anybody any experience in the matter. I wish we could offer you a translation service! I have no experience in . . . is it Danish? I can read Dutch, and sometimes that gives me a clue . . . However your English in this post is very clear, and I am sure I can live with posts that perhaps use unusual forms of syntax or words. Can make it rich, and a good way for us all to learn about different languages. There are some on the list who are good with French, and that might be a help. > And although I have done a lot of psychotherapy work it have nearly > always been in my own langues > I have not any experiment with participating in a Mailing List and = > have to > learn the hole set of the technical side of it. = There is a learning curve in becoming fluent in this medium. Computer literacy . . . I think we could well discuss it more here. It is our tool, and like good builders or artists, we would do well to share our knowledge about our tools. Your posts have some extra characters: "=" which appear, I think this is because you may not be using pure "ascii text" (american standards once again -- useful for all that! I have quite a love for ascii -- even when I make web pages, I like to use the 
 command so that I can use ascii text formatted in courier.


>  But learnig is what this is all about, so I allow myself to
> ask silly questions.
> As I'm sitting here and reading the mail from August I'm aware of the
> feelings that I get reading, and I must say that the atmosphere is of a
> very warm and intense kind of feeling.

I have been writing in this list (in its various forms) since
April 1993.  In that time there have been some very personal as
well as deep philosophical discussions here.  Some strong bonds
have been formed, and also lost, sometimes too easily for my
taste.  Throughout that time it has felt like a warm space to me
too.  It is quite a personal project of mine, and I come to of
the with the point of view that we can learn about the
psychological apects of the medium by experiencing here in a
psychological way, being here as whole bings, with our
sensitivity tuned in to the individual and collective patterns of
the soul.

I am glad you like the atmosphere, it does need to feel right so
that trust can be there for psychological intimacy.

> I understand and feel that there is a lot
> between the lines.
> Its obvious to me that even the "silence" between the mail is of a very
> importen kind of silence

I experience the silence here as the silence in a speech.  A good
speaker can say a greeting, and than leave a space, let the
silence fill the room, and then use words to add to what emerges
in the silence.  I have just completed a psychotherapy session
and I noticed the silences in that way.  There was intimacy in
the silence, it was firmly held by our theraputic hour and the
nature of our relationship built over succeeding sessions.

> or is it holes or psyberholes as there is not a
> sound.anywhere,

I find the space here more solid than a hole, but that is perhaps
because, having the control of the list, I know it will be here
tomorrow.  I keep it going through the most severe droughts.
Just how we see the silence is so individual.  At this moment I
am interested by it too.  True, some of the people who were very
active in May, when new here have gone to the dream group.  But
what causes these ebs and flows?

I know that I can get things going here, but do I create a
dependency for that?  Fritz's question is how can we facilitate
our list?  Good question.  One thing that I have learned is to
value the silence, to expect it, to listen to it, to see it as a
mirror, this makes it easier to not *have* to facillitate
activity.

> You can communicate but
> not hear or see or feel or smell but still you experience feelings
> of being in a group, strange !!!

Even smells and sensations, in our real world or the ones we
conjure up here in virtuality, we can describe in words, or
poems.  At present I still sense the lake here, the water.
Something of the full moon at night.  That sort of silence.

> And who are these people ??
>  The process of imagine the real person behind the writing, is
> very intense if I come to think about it,

I saw a picture of Gregory Peck and suddenly I realised that I
had been imagining one of my correspondents looking like him.
Probably looks nothing like that, but it was like seeing his
picture.  I have never managed to post mine to the web, but have
thought about it . . . What do you think?

> and like reading a book
> and then see the picture made from the book, is not always
> good, its important to make ones own pictures.

Yes, we don't want to spoil our virtual reality with the real
thing!

>  I must say that all of the content makes me thinking a lot of all the
> possibilities there is in the PWP

>  But then again is=B4n there a kind of global brainstorm going on
> at the moment, about the www and what shall we do with it and what
> good could it bring?? =

I have a post I am working on.  A familiar one, but I want to say
more.  "Media Native Message", coming soon.

> I feel a little behind it seems to be people that know all about  the
> dreamgroup and the hole psyber-l history but where is that dreamgroup?

The Dream group is a confidential and closed PsyberGroup ~ I
speak of it as if everyone would know that, but there are many
who would not.  It was planned to last for about six weeks but is
still going after almost as many months!  It is like the
Psybernet ~ Web Project, PWP, in that it is producing a hypertext
document as it goes.  That document will be public in the end.

> It seems that there is a lot of experience that must be read, is there anything
> about the process so far ?

About the dream group there is the original Invitation,
announcing the event.  You can see that on the web at

http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/dream.htm

Bent I presume you have web access?

>  And can anybody give me as a newcomer advise how to go on and what
> is important when you reflect is there any special rules that is good to
> know so I don't have to use trial and error methods???

The Psybernet list description, which I posted recently, is
available at:

http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/p_conf.htm

It is very broad, it provides the parameters for this list, and
it would be hard to break any rules.  The emphasis here is on
experience, as Fritz said, perhaps bing in a laboratory, so trial
and error is fine really.  There are the archives of the list,
and you can get those by email ~ see the HELP procedure at the
bottom of every email to the list.

I am in the process of getting all the archives on the web.  If
anyone has knowledge of how cybermind and future culture do their
web archives id be pleased to hear.

Bent, your question of how to go on, is a good one, and others
may have more to say.  I have on suggestion.  In the last month
or so there have been some interesting moments here, what
interests you, and how about responding it is never to late to
respond to an email IMO.  (In my opinion.)

>   So far so good.


Certainly!


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:05:22 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List 
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List 
From:         Sieur de Cyberie 
Organization: Sieur de Cyberie
Subject:      A voice from a the springtime of Psyber-L
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello all,

        It's been many months since my last post to this community.  Much
of this time I have been without Internet (by choice/by need).  For those
who were part of this community during the springtime of PSYBER-L, you
will notice a change in my e-mail address.  For those new to this
community, the silence you are hearing is part of the dialogue between
us.  In the silence you should hear echoes of past conversations, the
whispers of body talk, the drama of a textual stage.  This is a strange
and wonderful dimension.  It's a playground for your psyche, your spirit,
your soul.  Here you may pretend you are wearing a different
person/personality. But, don't be lulled into thinking that YOU don't
emerge loud and clear through any of the charades of your creating.
That's the wonder of computer-mediated communication.  Voices in
cyberspace.

        I hear you as you listen to me, as you begin to now listen to
your own thoughts that take in my words both spoken and unspoken.  If you
limit yourself to the words, you'll miss the message, a message that
would be born of the communion of a shared dialogue.

a plus tard mes amis

Robert de Cyberie

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 29 Aug 1996 02:39:26 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List 
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List 
From:         "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Multiple Recipients, Re: PWP

Hello to all of the Psyber-L and especially to Walter,

here is a short comment on silence,
Walter wrote
>I know that I can get things going here, but do I create a
dependency for that?  Fritz's question is how can we facilitate
our list?  Good question.  One thing that I have learned is to
value the silence, to expect it, to listen to it, to see it as a
mirror, this makes it easier to not *have* to facillitate
activity.<

From time to time I send a REV Psyber-L command and I am allways appalled by
the zillion of names of people of which I have never seen any post. Do they
contribute to the silence, or are they simply not there? Maybe they have
instructed their computer to automatically delete all the messages from
Psyber-L once they come in. In a real group situation you can see and
experience the silent people, here we can only speculate about them.

>I saw a picture of Gregory Peck and suddenly I realised that I
had been imagining one of my correspondents looking like him.
Probably looks nothing like that, but it was like seeing his
picture.  I have never managed to post mine to the web, but have
thought about it . . . What do you think?<

Sometimes I thought that I would like to have a clearer idea about the people
of this group. So,  of some I have assembled a virtual file in my mind,
putting together all the personal bits of information which I gathered from
the various messages combined with an imagination of their physical
appearance. The reality (photograph on the WEB) may be a shock. But it is the
same in science. You are publishing papers in Journals and respond to work of
other people. So they become virtual realities in your mind. If you meet them
at a conference, they look different than you expected but you know them by
their messages (papers) and the image of their physical appearance is quickly
adjusted.
Their is a saying: a picture tells you more than a thousand words, or was it a
million ?

Best wishes, FRITZ

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 16:50:16 +1000
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List 
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List 
From:         Elaine Macpherson 
Subject:      Re: Multiple Recipients, Re: PWP
In-Reply-To:  <960829063926_101632.3701_JHF45-1@CompuServe.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi :)

This email is in reply to Walter expressing his feelings about seeing all
the names of silent members on this list. These are the thought of one....

I've been a silent observer for several weeks now and have been tossing
up whether to unsubscribe.

I'm a laboratory geochemist by training, but have also become involved in
counselling work over the last couple of years. I'm intersted in
psychological theorems of many types, but particularly in the works by
Kohut and by Jung. However, my meager academic training in this area means
that I am interested in what you all have to say, but sometimes have trouble
with your "jargonese". Perhaps you might take that into consideration if
you are going to post the eventual result of your group onto the net.

I am unsure about voluteering for the group experiment.I am interested ,
but I have relatively limited time and I am unsure what I can contribute if
the group interactions are to take a similar form to those currently
being posted to this group.

At any rate, I wish you all luck,
Elaine

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:13:51 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List 
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List 
From:         barb chandler 
Organization: Freelance Writer
Subject:      Introduction
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I am a former psychotherapist with a crisis team.  I've also been a
telephone counselor on a suicide prevention hotline.  I am trying my hand
at free lance writing, and have an on-line advice column for gays and
lesbains through a mental health magazine.
Barb Chandler  barb@gvn.net
--
"Yesterdays past, tommorrow is the future, and today is a gift, that is
why it is called the present." Author Unknown

Home Page
http://www.gvn.net/~barb/barb.htm

Integrity/Northern California
http://www.gvn.net/~barb/

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