To: Walter Logeman Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9606" From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)" Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:44 -0400 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:21:36 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: The place of art in list leadership. Dear all on the Psybernet Mailing List, This is a time of quiet here. I suspect this is in part due to activity, which is very absorbing on another project that some of us are involved in. We are in a PsyberGroup associated with this list and the Psybernet project. Thus the quiet is misleading. Psybernet is in a period of expansion. There has been some questioning about the method used in Psybernet to learn about the psychology of listserv via a purely experiential method. As will be obvious to those involved in the project the learning is profound, and will find its way into this list over the next few months. One thing I have learnt is that I am unable to be fully present in two "psyberspaces" and maintain my rl work and relationships. That is serious as I state that I facilitate here. I do not think I have abandoned my role, nor do I think I have all the responsibility for the life on this list, however I will be looking for a facilitator for this list next time I intend to be involved in something major for a while. For now, i do both. Let me suggest three topics that are inter-related and may be useful for further airing here. 1. The Dangers of Cyberspace, especially Psyberspace. I am thinking especially of the lists and email aspects of cyberspace, as that is what we are involved in here. Are there dangers? What are the experiences of list members -- how has the medium hurt you or threatened you? I believe that Clifford Stoll mentions the dangers in his Snake Oil book -- has anyone read that? How can the dangers be prevented. What is the role of list . . . owner/moderator/fcilitator, in making virtual safety. I suggest that the "making" required is an art form like sculpture, or painting. 2. The relationship between ones life in Psyberspace, and off-line relationships. In wired recently they mentioned that this is not "information" technology, but relationship technology ~ quite right! R-tech. (ugh!) Are there guidelines for managing the two spheres? How can it be done? A huge question and one that has been in the media etc. and certainly discussed before, however, given the methods here, of sharing our *experience* we may be able to reach new levels of insight. 3. The Creation of Temenos. Again, focussing on the ability of the listserv lists such as this of the the PsyberGroup to be a container, a holding space, to have some boundaries, to create safety. All those things that are well summed up in the word temenos, with its association with sacred space and temples. How does a list develop that? Can our work here be structured? Even this post is a form of creating some structure and focus, some temenos. Can this be effective? How far can we go in this direction? Can the list pace have a sense of sacredness or focus akin to that found in rl spaces such as a chappel, or a consulting room? What is the art involved? All of these questions are on my mind, and I will look forward to participating, but not fully for some time. In the meantime I will read every word here, and rest assured, be busy with these questions in other ways. PS. . . .feel free to introduce, question, go off on tangents, raise totally new topics and generally create a climate of trust which is essential for these topics to be fully aired in an experiential way. And if you are a reader here, a few words of encouragement to those who write would be appreciated ~ no need to apologise for not being totally committed, over-committed. All the best, Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:53:06 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace? Walter, sitting there and philosophise on leadership in Psyberspace deserves some comments: What is it that you achieved as a leader? Even asking this question, I think, may indicate something missing. You surely watched me contributing to another list on which the emphasis seems to be on sensing one's own place in the causal chain of list events. As you've read my new intro, it was the pre-eminent topic of group *silence* I happened to experience in an aggravated form in PSYBER-L. I ventured to make some proposals - you were the first to give approval; and the tides of mail did overrun my proposal, referring ing some contorted form to it - and that it was. Perhaps it was my fault not to hammer home *repeatedly* the de- tails important to fulfilling my promise; I simply watched the waves of list flood sweeping in - until I let go and switched lists - at the cost of missing admission closing date for your playgroup, which, in turn, served to reinforce my decision to switch. In retrospect, Walter, I didn't experience you as a *facilitator* in the word's original sense; I felt uneasy (misunderstood) at your interventions. Hope I learn to stay away from lists whose leaders interfere with my contribs in a way I can't grapple with. So I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when no one expects it. Bye, Walter. It could have been so beautiful - it has not come to be. Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:20:02 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace? Walter, I confess to being very confused by this. Mila writes: >What is it that you achieved as a leader? >Even asking this question, I think, may indicate something missing. Maybe it's just me but this seems a little hostile. It seems to me you have usually refered to yourself as a list facilitator ...the meaning of which does not, IMO, imply a goal-oriented "achievement"-driven role, but rather a "helping", "keeping it flowing" role. Is this a suggestion that you have not succeeded in your role as facilitator because there is no apparent "achievement"? And I am completely at a loss to understand why questioning how the process has evolved indicates that there may be "something missing." I have not read all of the archives...so perhaps I am missing vital information in the relationship between Mila, you and Pysber-L. But this post is very confusing. >You surely watched me contributing to another list on which the emphasis >seems to be on sensing one's own place in the causal chain of list events. >As you've read my new intro, it was the pre-eminent topic of group *silence* >I happened to experience in an aggravated form in PSYBER-L. >I ventured to make some proposals - you were the first to give approval; and the tides of mail did overrun my proposal, referring ing some contorted form to >it - >and that it was. Perhaps it was my fault not to hammer home *repeatedly* the >de-tails important to fulfilling my promise; I simply watched the waves of list >flood sweeping in - until I let go and switched lists - at the cost of >missing admission closing date for your playgroup, which, in turn, served to >reinforce my decision to switch. Questions: 1. Is Mila suggesting that you are somehow to blame for missing the deadline to something...and is that because a great deal of mail was generated to something she posted to Psyber-L, which she failed to follow through on ? 2. Decision to switch to what? >In retrospect, Walter, I didn't experience you as a *facilitator* in the >word's >original sense; I felt uneasy (misunderstood) at your interventions. hmmmmm..... >Hope I learn to stay away from lists whose leaders interfere with my contribs >in a way I can't grapple with. So I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when >no one expects it. I fail again, to understand either how it is you have interfered or how it is that your alleged interference could not be "grappled" with. People come and go from lists.....the measure of their passing is proportional to their contribution I suppose. Maybe I'm reading to much into " I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when >no one expects it." but it Sounds Like.....since we're not playing my way, I'm not going to play. >Bye, Walter. > It could have been so beautiful - > it has not come to be. it is only what we, collectively, make it. It hardly seems fair...right...appropriate...logical...to "blame" Walter for this....vague dissatisfaction. Please, I am very confused by this...Walter, can you explain? Is'e _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 00:10:41 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:53 PM 6/4/96 +0200, you wrote: >Walter, >sitting there and philosophise on leadership in Psyberspace deserves some >comments: >What is it that you achieved as a leader? >Even asking this question, I think, may indicate something missing. Walter and I have traded email's about that as well. Walter's got a different style that I've accustomed to in the leadership terms, but I suspect that it fits very well with the professional role that he has chosen in life. Leading group theraphy is quite different from leading a focused discussion. But this is Walter's list, and he has posted his definition of the list, which we are free to follow or ignore, as we wish. Walter has shown quite a bit of leniency in the range of topics that he's willing to allow discussion of here, which I have found both refreshing and bewildering. I've traded emails with many from the list expressing what a soap opera some of this became, but there were also quite poignant moments when people realized signifcant internal issues. On the whole, the discussion fits quite nicely into what Walter defined as the goals for the list, (at least when we were not defending our petty egos..) >You surely watched me contributing to another list on which the emphasis seems >to be on sensing one's own place in the causal chain of list events. I don't know what list that was.. >As you've read my new intro, it was the pre-eminent topic of group *silence* >I happened to experience in an aggravated form in PSYBER-L. I saw your posts, and I actually put your message into my "To Reply To" mailbox, since there there some things in the post that I thought were interested.. but along with about 50 other messages from many other people, some even directly posted to me, I never responded to any of them. I have noticed and agreed with most of what you have posted in Psyber-L, but none of the messages prompted me to reach for the "reply" button immediatly. In the message that you posted in response to a "Language and Community" message, you said: >If getting zero responses, you can be sure they've given you *no* cues whatever >in which directions they're expecting you to develop. >Thank you for the opportunity to go one step further: >Complete silence *entitles you* to write on *any* topic *you* choose - no mat- >ter how gaga or exotic - as long it's *formally* embeddable into "psyberspace". So why haven't you done it? I get responses because I post messages that touch issues that other's have. I post a message on a specific topic, (often in a sort of challenge, since that elicits responses, that's a trick from an online old timer), and then wait to see how things sort out. People often respond immediatly to flames or messages designed to incite response. It's a skill that I have developed to a fine art, and I can waste days with the responses that can generate in a single hour of posting. I hope that you understand that what I'm about to say (and what I've said) is just intended as a simple investigation of what may be causing you to not get responses to your messages .. My first impression is that you don't speak English as a native, in that you don't have a normal use of the language (make that English) complete with the colorful metaphores. The flow of what you post is not a normal english flow. I notice that your country domain is DE, where is that, Denmark? Not that it bothers me, my mother doesn't speak English as a native either, (she's from Luxembourg), and I spent seven years of my childhood in Germany, (Verstehen Sie Deutsch?). The second thought is that you don't investigate a single idea with more than 25 words. While I appreciate the clarity of thought that goes into your posts, there isn't much emotional meat in them for me, and the shortness of the expression of the ideas doesn't give my psyche much in the way of context. After all, your messages flow by at about 1000 words per minute, (my reading speed) so it's not like you're going to make much contact in a 25 word statement. (but I do remember that I liked what you had to say, and was looking forward to fuller statements from you on the topics at hand.) I assume that you don't touch type, which would lead to shorter statements and the direct manner that you post in. I type about 100 words per minute, so my posts are in a stream of conciousness sort of method, while it appears that you spend a lot of time thinking through and editing your messages. (I notice the hyphens, etc..) It appears from your messages that you have a cool intellectual mind. It appears that you have a good grasp of the issues, and something valid to say, but given the more stark contrast of several of the other posters, there just isn't much to respond to. The messages that you post have many ideas contained in a single message. I suggest that if you responded to a single idea or posted a topic on the single thread, that the ideas would be easier to focus on. Multiple ideas get lost in email messages. I don't know where I learned it from, I guess in the English classes, my mother, or what, but I learned a long time ago that the best way to get a point across is to select a single issue and then only talk about that particular topic. >I ventured to make some proposals - you were the first to give approval; and the >tides of mail did overrun my proposal, referring in some contorted form to it >and that it was. I have also noticed that when Walter has responded, that it sometimes has broken the flow of the thinking that would have developed otherwise. But in this forum, cool intellectual debate is certainly not what has been the norm. I have also started threads here that have died. That happens all the time, both on-line and in real life. I have hundreds of things that interest me, and topics that I'd like to explore, but we don't have the time to sort out all of life's nuances.. >Perhaps it was my fault not to hammer home *repeatedly* the details >important to fulfilling my promise; I simply watched the waves of list >flood sweeping in - until I let go and switched lists - at the cost of missing >admission closing date for your playgroup, which, in turn, served to reinforce >my decision to switch. >In retrospect, Walter, I didn't experience you as a *facilitator* in the word's >original sense; I felt uneasy (misunderstood) at your interventions. I also didn't get the sense that this list was a place where a facilitated discussion was going to occur. Robert and Walter attempted to facilitate a discussion on the topic of the psychology of listserves, but the noise from the "experimental learning" just got in the way. As did the lack of responses. One discussion that I had likened Psyber-L to a "Hippy commune", and then it turns out that Walter started a commune in the 60's. In a commune you have to pursue your own issues with vigor, and there isn't much space for "reasoned" discussion. It's also not a place that is structured enough for reasoned debate to occur for very long. >Hope I learn to stay away from lists whose leaders interfere with my contribs in >a way I can't grapple with. So I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when no >one expects it. If that is what makes you happy, go for it. Psyber-L isn't exactly what it appears, but I've stuck around so far, I invite you to do the same. (The leaving the list threat sure is popular, isn't it! I did it, Laurel did it, now Mila...) >Bye, Walter. > It could have been so beautiful - > it has not come to be. --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 04:04:09 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace? In-Reply-To: <960604172001_210449730@emout18.mail.aol.com> Lisa ( Is'e), Mila, > Please, I am very confused by this...Walter, can you explain? Lisa, I was slowly warming up to the same questions you have. Perhaps Mila, you may wish to clarify. Mila, I recall the proposal from you that you would summarise our discussions on the differences between email communication and f2f discussion ~ that is how i understood the proposal, and I was all for it. I still think it is a good idea! Perhaps even this summary is leading to you feeling misunderstood and thinking i am interfering. I hope not, but if so, how can i help? However you have already made a good bye, I can respect that, and expect no further communication if that is your wish & I wish you well. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:23:11 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace? Is'e, Let me cite some highlights of yours: >>> And I am completely at a loss to understand why questioning how the process has evolved indicates that there may be "something missing." I have not read all of the archives...so perhaps I am missing vital information in the relationship between Mila, you and Pysber-L. But this post is very confusing. <<< >>> Questions: 1. Is Mila suggesting that you are somehow to blame for missing the deadline to something...and is that because a great deal of mail was generated to something she posted to Psyber-L, which she failed to follow through on ? 2. Decision to switch to what? <<< >>> I fail again, to understand either how it is you have interfered or how it is that your alleged interference could not be "grappled" with. <<< >>> People come and go from lists.....the measure of their passing is proportional to their contribution I suppose. Maybe I'm reading to much into " I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when >no one expects it." but it Sounds Like.....since we're not playing my way, I'm not going to play. <<< >>> >Bye, Walter. > It could have been so beautiful - > it has not come to be. it is only what we, collectively, make it. It hardly seems fair...right...appropriate...logical...to "blame" Walter for this....vague dissatisfaction. Please, I am very confused by this...Walter, can you explain? <<< In short: If you're already **feeling** some "hostility" in my earlier msg, and being aware that Walter seems to have decided *not* to respond, then who are you to put him under cross-examination like a policeman? Is "not having read the archives" a sufficient legitimation for doing so? Where did I blame Walter for the obvious fact that I can't miss a cake and have it at the same time? Missing it only *reinforced* me to get off - what alterna- tive should I see, according to your standpoint ?? It's you whom I see as lacking empathy to Walter. Sorry for you, Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:23:42 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace? In a message dated 96-06-05 03:24:12 EDT, Dr.Klemm writes: >Is'e, >Let me cite some highlights of yours: >>>> >snip< >In short: >If you're already **feeling** some "hostility" in my earlier msg, and being >aware that Walter seems to have decided *not* to respond, then who are you to >put him under cross-examination like a policeman? I am nobody. My abject apologies to Walter if he feels that I have put him under cross-examination. That was not my intent. And I believe he did respond. I would have directed those questions to you; however, I was left with the impression you were leaving the list. It is fascinating to me that people make these pronouncements about leaving a list and then hang around to see what follows in that wake. A bit dishonest too, I think. I should think if someone is going to leave a list and says good-bye they should just go. Is there some Netiquette that covers this? But to announce a departure and then lurk around to see if anyone comments on their departure is just sort of fishing for public acknowledgement that they are wanted, I suspect. Although I do not begin to know what motivates people most of the time. Why not just say that? Why not just say? Hey, I'd appreciate a note or two from anyone letting me know that my commentary is welcome, or my presence will be missed. OR, I'm unsubscribing on such and such a date and that gives me x amount of time to say good-byes and wrap up any unfinished business. I've seen this on several lists. I don't know what your intent was, I suspect you wanted to generate some response. It is also possible that you changed your mind after posting your 'good-bye'. One can never be sure, even in the relative immediacy of cyberspace...our feelings and lives change dramatically sometimes from one post to the next. >Is "not having read the archives" a sufficient legitimation for doing so? No. certainly not. I admit to a certain laziness there...born of wanting to know too much in too limited amount of time. I was hoping somebody would give me the highlights, sum up so to speak. Guess if it's really important enough to me I'll go research the archives. or not. >Where did I blame Walter for the obvious fact that I can't miss a cake and >have it at the same time? Missing it only *reinforced* me to get off - what >alternative should I see, according to your standpoint ?? Honestly, I know I'm missing something here and I'm still clueless....there is a latent hostility in your note to Walter all twisted around a couple of different issues and I just can't seem to pick the threads apart. You can continue to toss barbs at me, I certainly don't care, or you can try to enlighten me, or not. What is it exactly that you wanted from this list, from Walter, from the other group you missed. What other list did you go to? You of course don't have to answer this....these are just the questions that are floating around in my head. >It's you whom I see as lacking empathy to Walter. Then again I apologize to Walter if my words conveyed a lack of empathy. I don't "feel" anything for Walter except a bit of respect for maintaining this space, this forum, for exchange and dialogue. >Sorry for you, I'm sure I don't know why. Is'e _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:40:35 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace? Is'e if I may as an aside to your conversation...this issue of leave taking fascinates me in relationship to expectations of exchange and fulfillment Given my very different way of being in this physical reality, I have to work to understand what is being contributed here by everyone and find myself in waves of perplexity with very real issues people seem to be having. So I need to voice my inability to resonate to the issues of late. That said I have wondered about expectations of being here in this list or any list. And could this list, because of its psychological intention, create a space of humanness and the complexities around ones personal learning agenda and maybe some blind spots which exchanges here particularly serve to illuminate? My expectation is around learning and all exchanges offer me that opportunity here because the framing here is so foreign to me ie: Jung and psychology. I live in sacred geometry and science metaphores and papermaking at the moment. I have experienced moments of connection and learning here over the months tho admittedly I sit quietly listening. I agree, Is'e, there is a real issue around the tempoexperience of our lives outside the list and the list. The list provides a focused place for self reflection and the contribution of this. What my experience has been centers around the polyloguetimespace sense and the creative tension with linearity or a perceptionmisperception of linearity. I have felt the uncomfortableness of not responding to someone because I was focused elsewhere. In a previous incarnation we had a norm to say when we were away and when we were here to post "here listening". This cleared up the unsettledness and I think a very real sense of manners or netiquette. There seems to be some transfer of silence into being ignored potential here which I have experienced when there is great energy around a thread by a person who is wanting exchange where there may not be any. I think of Walter and those who are in the dream group. What I find quizical is how to hold wanting an immediate reply because this medium gives the impression of immediacy which is some way feeds into instant gratification-which I know is a loaded phrase-and a very real sense of engagement.The immediacy is particularly important to me because I lose the thread of thought. Being so non linear with trouble focusing holding who says what it all gets mixed up in my mind and admittedly I weigh the time to sort it all out with the possibiity I could add something. So my intention is to listen and learn and when I can catch the thread wave which isn't often I grab my cyberboard and paddle out to play. Here listening, Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:15:18 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace? Judith writes: >...this issue of leave taking >fascinates me in relationship to expectations of exchange and fulfillment in response to my comment: I think this whole issue of connections and departures is one we could explore with great depth. Cyberspace is a fascinating study of humanity trying to catch up to technology. We have these incredibly powerful, sophisticated tools that offer us almost instantaneous interchange of thought and ideas and yet we are no closer to understanding each other than we were before. The technology that hurled us into this cyberworld did not give us new ways of actually getting our messages across. And all the upcoming advances to this technology: the cybervoice and cybervisual advancements will not guarantee our enlightenment. Wherever we go there we are. Whether we communicate in letters written on a page in ink or by computer, by voice connection over telephone or cyberlink, or in visual mode f2f or in cyberlink, we are still the same fragile creatures who say one thing, mean another, and find it interpreted an entirely different way. That any understanding occurs at all fascintates me endlessly. Let me offer this idea that I have been playing with, not particularly original. When two people meet through this medium...there are actual many "personalities" present in that meeting: You <----> Me the You I imagine you to be <----> the Me you imagine me to be the You I want you to be <----> the Me you want me to be the You you are pretending to be <----> the Me I am pretending to be the You that you reveal unwittingly <----> the Me that I reveal unwittingly I suppose I could go on...the Me I am becoming?have been?.....but somewhere in there is some slice of the truth of two people, and all the parts of the fantasy make up the truth of that person . But I am digressing...back to the issue of arrivals and departures. Judith writes: >. In a previous incarnation we had a norm to >say when we were away and when we were here to post "here listening". This >cleared up the unsettledness and I think a very real sense of manners or >netiquette. I can see the value in that. and also the complications. There may be people who never post, are just on the list to read and learn. Not everyone who reads a newspaper writes a letter to the editor. When a list is small and the interaction varied among the players, their comings and goings would have a different kind of importance than on a larger list, with many listeners and fewer active posters. I think we come to expect a certain kind of involvement from specific players and their absence, in this case, "silence", can be confusing. It is always pleasurable, speaking entirely for myself, to find little notes from listmembers describing the exigencies of their lives and how that affects their ability to focus or interact on the list. It is nice because I begin to get a deeper sense of the "being" behind, between, above, around the words and I feel a greater connection to that individual, a deeper interest in their words. On the other hand, many of us are deeply private people and it is very painful to expose our private lives in cyberspace. And many of us simply can't imagine it mattering to anyone else. >Given my very different way of being in this physical reality, I have to work >to understand what is being contributed here by everyone and find myself in >waves of perplexity with very real issues people seem to be having. So I need >to voice my inability to resonate to the issues of late. I think most conversations/interactions are rarely about what they appear to be on the surface. It is perplexing because to some the issues that are beneath the words are more apparent that to others. And sometimes a response from one person to the thread of another is not necessarily propter hoc, instead, it is tangential, and the connection may seem illusive to others.....but the response was sparked by something in the thread, perhaps something that swelled up out of memory...who knows what streams of consciousness flow from without our being? The rest I will let stew for a bit....duty calls!!! Is'e _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:47:05 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: I am listening . . . [Was: What to think of leadership . . . ] In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960605041041.00a8a49c@monmouth.com> Wilbur, and all, > One discussion that I had likened Psyber-L to a "Hippy commune", and then it > turns out that Walter started a commune in the 60's. In a commune you have > to pursue your own issues with vigor, and there isn't much space for > "reasoned" discussion. It's also not a place that is structured enough for > reasoned debate to occur for very long. Thanks Wilbur and others for the attention to the project here, and my part in it. All highly relevant personally and to the psybernet work. You touch on things that are really personal to me and important, and which i an working on but not ready to bring to this list, mainly as i need to keep my attention elsewhere. I will though, hopefully in a useful way! Here i am doing what has been suggested by Judith, an I am listening post. All the best, walter > >Hope I learn to stay away from lists whose leaders interfere with my > contribs in > >a way I can't grapple with. So I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when no > >one expects it. > > If that is what makes you happy, go for it. Psyber-L isn't exactly what it > appears, but I've stuck around so far, I invite you to do the same. (The > leaving the list threat sure is popular, isn't it! I did it, Laurel did it, > now Mila...) > > >Bye, Walter. > > It could have been so beautiful - > > it has not come to be. > > --------------------------------------- > Putting a human face on technology. ;-) > --------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 03:34:16 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: I am listening . . . [Was: What to think of leadership . . . ] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:47 AM 6/7/96 GMT, you wrote: >Wilbur, and all, > >> One discussion that I had likened Psyber-L to a "Hippy commune", and then it >> turns out that Walter started a commune in the 60's. In a commune you have >> to pursue your own issues with vigor, and there isn't much space for >> "reasoned" discussion. It's also not a place that is structured enough for >> reasoned debate to occur for very long. > >Thanks Wilbur and others for the attention to the project here, and my >part in it. All highly relevant personally and to the psybernet work. > I hope that you find the observation useful. I'm not trying to be critical. > >You touch on things that are really personal to me and important, and >which i an working on but not ready to bring to this list, mainly as i >need to keep my attention elsewhere. I will though, hopefully in a >useful way! We'll be waiting! This could be very enlightening. > >Here i am doing what has been suggested by Judith, an I am listening >post. > > > >All the best, > > >walter > > > > > >> >Hope I learn to stay away from lists whose leaders interfere with my >> contribs in >> >a way I can't grapple with. So I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when no >> >one expects it. >> >> If that is what makes you happy, go for it. Psyber-L isn't exactly what it >> appears, but I've stuck around so far, I invite you to do the same. (The >> leaving the list threat sure is popular, isn't it! I did it, Laurel did it, >> now Mila...) >> >> >Bye, Walter. >> > It could have been so beautiful - >> > it has not come to be. >> >> --------------------------------------- >> Putting a human face on technology. ;-) >> --------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >> >> > >_____________________________________________________ >Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz >http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:48:54 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: I am listening . . . [Was: What to think of leadership . . . ] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If that is what makes you happy, go for it. Psyber-L isn't exactly what it >> appears, but I've stuck around so far, I invite you to do the same. (The >> leaving the list threat sure is popular, isn't it! I did it, Laurel did it, >> now Mila...) I know, but I was having a collosal temper tantrum with the ex light of my cyber life, who note when he said farewell did in fact actually do so. Maybe it was a sort of "I am leaving home, unless you tell me that you love me sort of tantrum in my case" and in his it was an "I'll show you that I dont need you anymore, foot stomp" I think you were just being petulant too Wilbur. Maybe we are all big kids that occasionaly need somebody to say there there.. Dolores _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:52:37 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Re: I am listening . . . In-Reply-To: <199606071148.MAA20661@easynet.co.uk> from "Laurel" at Jun 7, 96 12:48:54 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I know, but I was having a collosal temper tantrum with the ex light of my > cyber life, who note when he said farewell did in fact actually do so. > > Maybe it was a sort of "I am leaving home, unless you tell me that you love > me sort of tantrum in my case" and in his it was an "I'll show you that I > dont need you anymore, foot stomp" I almost left too... I had a rather big temper tantrum myself & felt really hurt, angry and down for a few days. But then I read some of the most touching, comforting and lovingly supportive messages I've seen- particularly Susan Swan's - and I was deeply touched. > I think you were just being petulant too Wilbur. Maybe we are all big kids > that occasionaly need somebody to say there there.. > We *are* all big kids inside IMO; I know I am, myself anyway. And somebody saying there there is so very welcome and wonderful when it happens. What was particularly good about the loving, supportive messages here after the literary bloodbath a couple of weeks ago was that the people involved in the flamewar, myself one of the culprits, were also the people involved in the hugging & comforting. I *like* being a big kid! But I prefer the hugging & the smiling, happy childlike innocence of unconditional and untainted love , to the tantrums. Walter, your messages are always welcome in my inbox & I think you're the best kind of leader -someone who genuinely cares about the people and the project he's leading. That's not intended as a criticism of Mila or anyone else, but I just wanted to say that I do appreciate Walter's efforts here. A big hug to everybody, the big kid inside Steve Murray. --- My love is like a storybook story But it's as real as the feelings I feel - Mark Knopfler, 'The Princess Bride'. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:37:22 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Re: I am listening . . . Dolores writes: > but I was having a collosal temper tantrum there is nothing quite as satisfying as temper tantrum in cyberspace. I mean, they are by their very nature rather meant for an audience! Where there is certainly some comfort in having a temper tantrum in ones own company, it's usually the more to the point of Making A Scene! A a good scene deserves a good audience, don't you think? >Maybe it was a sort of "I am leaving home, unless you tell me that you love >me sort of tantrum in my case" it's always a little dangerous to send that message ...one could get the response...don't get yourself de-gaussed on the way out! Then, I suppose, that is really the message in most tantrums...a sort of love, me, hate me, but don't ignore kind of message..... >and in his it was an "I'll show you that I dont need you anymore, foot stomp" meaning I need you a lot but I'm not going to let you know anymore? >I think you were just being petulant too Wilbur. Maybe we are all big kids >that occasionaly need somebody to say there there.. hmm....trying to imagine Wilbur petulant....I see perverse....I see disdainful....I can't picture petulant.... Yes, we need love most when we deserve it the least, I am convinced. and Steven writes: > What was particularly good about the loving, supportive messages here after >the literary bloodbath a couple of weeks ago was that the people involved >in the flamewar, myself one of the culprits, were also the people involved >in the hugging & comforting. hmmmmmmm.......toe tapping....not gonna go there this time.......hmmphf. However, I do think many times we confuse "intense disagreement" with "flame wars"... and have often watched the label "flame war" get attached to something that is nothing more than a disagreement between individuals. Which is unfortunate, because in being so anxious to cool down the intensity we often misdirect the discussion and thereby distort the intent. So instead of the argument progressiing to its logical conclusion, which may either be understanding and exchange of information, or simply a willingness to agree to disagree....it becomes perverted. I think this is especially true when two women argue. We, culturally, are intensely uncomfortable with anything that approaches expression of rage by women, we are much more willing to allow men to express their rage, we can accept and understand it. But women are not allowed the space to be full of rage or to speak intensely and passionately without being accused of being inflamatory, or written off as being overly hormonal. To expect that life will always be hugs and kisses is to turn a blind eye to ones own internal rage and to live out of balance. It is only by accepting that there is love and hate, good and evil within each of us that we can begin to find the balance we need to live whole, joyous lives. To be afraid of the truth of oneself is to live in fear of ones own rage....and to be unable to acknowledge that that same rage may exist in another. What think you? >I *like* being a big kid! But I prefer the hugging & the smiling, happy >childlike innocence of unconditional and untainted love , to the >tantrums. Well, of course, who doesn't. But methinks it would do you a world of good to throw yourself on the floor and kick and scream and wail your arms about....because sometimes a little tantrum is just a wonderful release of pent up frustrations....and sometimes...it's just plain Fun. Is'e _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:38:02 BST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "S.Murray2" Subject: postcard Hi Folks Steve here having problems with his e-mail; I've logged my other account on here too so I can be sure of getting my Psybernet-fix, if my other mail bounces you should be able to get me at smu2@gcal.ac.uk [if this gets through either, that is...:-)] Cheers & a good weekend to all Steve Murray Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk smu2@gcal.ac.uk _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:21:38 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: I am listening . . . here agreeing :-) fun, yes, now there's a concept;-) judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 07:52:34 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: -=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List -=-=-=-= A thought: here is the list description, i think it is a long way removed from "do your own thing", from a hippy philosophy . . . while at the same time not rejecting those values either, embracing them, moving on . . . -=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List -=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the effects of email groups and lists on group life and the psyche. The list is a starting point for depth psychological work on the net. Topics include: The art of leadership in communication networks. Creating communication environments. Gender issues. Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious. Special focus on how these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace. Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience of the medium. We voice that learning. Forming relationships of a collegial nature around our psychological net interests is an important part of the work. The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which includes psychological professional services on the net such as one-to-one Personal Exploration and professionally facilitated email groups. The list is also a place for professional collaboration in the development of ethical depth work of this nature. Announcements about Psybernet services will be made in this list. The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman. Discussion of how the list is facilitated is integral to its purpose. Psyber-L is archived and these are available to members with an index psyber-l command to the listserv. To subscribe to PSYBER-L, send the a command to: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the BODY of e-mail: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname For example: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive confirmation request, then an acknowledgment, followed by a welcome message. To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to: LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM In the body of the email write: SIGNOFF PSYBER-L Last updated 2 June, 1996 Owner: Walter Logeman _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:22:45 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Re: tantrums, love , anger & Fun (long) In-Reply-To: <960607113721_409294253@emout08.mail.aol.com> from "Lisa D. McCulley" at Jun 7, 96 11:37:22 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lisa, I enjoyed your article a lot - thank you; Sorry this is so long, but I got the typing frenzy this morning :-) I didnt intend posting here & have many other people to reply to, but my hands wouldnt say no & this is what I've written this morning. I rarely know what I'm going to write when I sit down these days :-), but this one has come out from the heart. I've been wanting to say the following for a couple of weeks I think - and I hope you'll enjoy my article. > > there is nothing quite as satisfying as temper tantrum in cyberspace. I > mean, they are by their very nature rather meant for an > audience! Where there is certainly some comfort in having a temper tantrum > in ones own company, it's usually the more to the point of Making A Scene! A > a good scene deserves a good audience, don't you think? Indeed; getting frustration out is done best when the people or things who are the object of it are there to listen and react. I believe that the people we find it hardest to forgive are the ones who we need to forgive the most - and often having a tantrum with them is the only way we can bring ourselves to speak to them. > > Yes, we need love most when we deserve it the least, I am convinced. Indeed; but I believe it is not that we do not deserve it at times, but rather that we cut ourselves off from it. If I dont forgive somebody for something, the resentment doesnt hurt them IMO - it hurts me. I think we probably have different interpretations of the word 'deserve'; I think people have a right to be loved, just because they exist; I think it should be unconditional and as unjudgemental as a baby's or maternal love; I think I would say I believe we need love most when we *feel* we deserve it least - and I think from that angle, I agree with you; As Louise Hay says, [she was raped as a child] "I'm not saying I'm going to pretend it never happened or that it would be easy - just that I'm not going to punish myself anymore for what they did. " Susan's words about killing a little part of ourselves when we hurt another touched me deeply, because they reminded me of this: that when I attack people , demonise and dehumanise them it hurts me. I remember lashing out at you & I feel doubly bad about that now - firstly because I can see that what I said to you was unfair, and secondly because I think I really wanted you to say 'there there' to me and tell me it was all OK. Unable to say that, I lashed out - but what I really wanted was your approval & that 'there there' Dolores mentioned. Madam, I formally apologise for the things I said to you. I respect you, and I would like us to start afresh here. Louise also says that it's the people we need to forgive most that we find it hardest to forgive: I think that's true, and I also think it's because we want their approval, their trust and their love that we lash out at them so viciously when we dont get it. As Susan talked about, rage is not a brave thing; it is a cowardly thing to lash out rather than go within and resolve the real cause of the anger. Real courage IMO is going within and facing ourselves - and then having the courage to admit that we do really want a 'there there' from the people we attack, without knowing if we'll get it or get attacked back. > > and Steven writes: x > > > What was particularly good about the loving, supportive messages here after > >the literary bloodbath a couple of weeks ago was that the people involved > >in the flamewar, myself one of the culprits, were also the people involved > >in the hugging & comforting. > > hmmmmmmm.......toe tapping....not gonna go there this time.......hmmphf. Thank you for not criticising me on the above:-) ; I realised after re-reading it that I was perhaps rather presumptious in saying that - who am I to catgorise and label people. I think what I meant to say was that the above was my impression of what happened from my perspective - just as I despaired at the situation and thought nobody except Dolores liked, respected or understood what I had said , I read a series of the most lovely , supportive and charming messages I've seen anywhere: and realised that much of the anger and pain I was feeling was inside my own head and my own construction. So, the above paragraph should read 'What happened in my head', not 'What happened'. Thanks for pointing that out Lisa, without criticising me: It's let me realise my mistake there and I've gained something from that; > > However, I do think many times we confuse "intense disagreement" with "flame > wars"... and have often watched the label "flame war" get attached to > something that is nothing more than a disagreement between individuals. OK, again you have a point there. What was in fact an intense disagreement became a flamewar in my head - mostly because I have been involved in some utterly vicious flamewars in the past, over hypnosis & love curing cancer & other diseases & a campaign being waged to cover it up. [All IMO.] I dragged out all the 'flamewar' memories & behaviour patterns or 'games' as Transactional Analysis would label them, and set to playing 'toast 'em'. But with hindsight I agree, it wasnt a flamewar: and you didnt deserve the things I said. When we have tantrums I think we do bring out our script behaviours learned over the years of how to react in confrontational situations; despite all the things I said about love and taking behaviours only from the new files from now on, I yanked out the confrontational approach & did all the old things which wounded me in the previous flamewars I took part in. > Which is unfortunate, because in being so anxious to cool down the > intensity we often misdirect the discussion and thereby distort the intent. Indeed; It would be great if we could be completely and brutally honest with people without hurting them and without other people leaving the list; [no jibe intended there at anyone. I am sorry if I contributed myself to people's decisions to leave.] Something I try to do with friends is to mutually agree to relax various taboos. With my Christian friends whom I've been talking with every week for the past 18 months, we have a standing policy that we will not worry about hurting each others feelings by being brutally honest - since before, for over a year, we shied away from telling each other what we really thought of our respective beliefs for fear of one or other of us running screaming from the shock of it. Now having been brutally honest with them and they with me, our friendship is stronger for it: because although we have said some ghastly things to each other in anger, in frustration, in fear and in haste, we trust each other's sincerity if not each other's judgement. I think I would like to say the same to you here Lisa, that I trust that you believe what you're saying & I respect your opinion even if I dont agree with it. If I hurt, annoy or inadvertently offend please believe that although I can be careless, although I can be tactless, & although I can be nasty if I have a tantrum, that inside me there is a little kid that just wants someone to say 'there there', tell him everyone loves him and give him a big hug. Dolores did that for me, and it was probably the first time I've really let my guard down in cyberspace: the first time I've really trusted somebody not to hurt my little kid. I think the anger I vented here came from thinking that that wonderful feeling I felt from Dolores's messages had been demeaned or spoiled in some way by the disagreements - a kind of panic at thinking something priceless was being lost. I'm glad to say that it hasnt been lost, my guard is going to stay down now and I do not need to react with hate and fear to protect my little kid anymore. I have probably learned more in the past three weeks, particularly from Dolores, than I have in the previous 18 months, coincidences included. And I am also learning some things from you -and feeling able to let my guard down with you, too. > So instead of the argument progressiing to its logical conclusion, which may > either be understanding and exchange of information, or simply a willingness > to agree to disagree....it becomes perverted. Indeed; I myself feel that the 'scope' of the issues being discussed is often overlooked in favour of points being scored when this happens; I saw so many hugely important [to me] insights in Dolores's article and the e-mails we exchanged, and the whole affair took on a huge significance for me. I realised that I was ignoring that scope and indulging in unproductive arguments as the disagreement heightened, but it is one of the hardest script behaviours or games to break when we feel we must speak out to defend ourselves. Which is sad, because going back to the things which have a lot of scope is probably what we should have done IMO. I think this is especially > true when two women argue. We, culturally, are intensely uncomfortable with > anything that approaches expression of rage by women, we are much more > willing to allow men to express their rage, we can accept and understand it. > But women are not allowed the space to be full of rage or to speak intensely > and passionately without being accused of being inflamatory, or written off > as being overly hormonal. Cripes; synchronicity time. I'm not taking the mickey & you can take this with a pinch of salt if you wish but I just read someone elses reply to one of my Love articles which has caused a Eureka! with your paragraph. I'll quote it: --- Well Stephen Murray I enjoyed your discussion about Love. Here are a few comments and ideas of my own... Personally I prefer not to speak about love as either having a feminine or masculine nature. To do so, I feel only further complicates the problems faced by both men and women as "lovers". I think you have focused on the question - Who is permitted to give love ? You are certainly right that our society favours women in this regard. However, a question of equal importance I feel you did not consider is - who is permitted to recieve love? In this area I feel our society actually favours men! In regards to the first question... In your introduction you mentioned that our actions or emotions must be judged within the particular contex in which they occur. I agree, but I would like to add that some of our actions or emotions tend to be encouraged or discouraged by the social environment we inhabit. Now Love is a very powerful emotion, I'm sure you would agree, and giving love DOES involve the temporary dissipation of the self. I think we are all afraid to some extent of losing our identities, but I think in men it is very pronounced and is expressed by our Macho attitudes. Women on the other hand are free to give love because they are not as afraid to do so. Why is this? Well I conjecture that women have a social support network that allows them to temporarily "transfer" there identies to other women or men for "safe keeping", while they provide lots of love. Men on the other hand have little or no social support system that makes this possible or even acceptable! In regards to the second question... I think women have been socialized to be ashamed of recieving love. When a person freely accepts love their sense of identity is fortified. I think when this happens to women they experience alot of shame and guilt, because they view their own sense of self as often residing in others, as mentioned above. Perhaps this is why a woman wants her "Man to be strong" - he becomes the temporary receptacle of her identity while she gives love. --- (This article was in a reply to me on the New World Media server [www.worldmedia.com ] I have been thinking about this, i.e. have women been socialised not to receive love and men been socialised not to give it - and I think it fits in with what I said in my 'Boardroom Crisis' article. But on reading Lisa's comments I once again spewed coffee, since I think she's provided the other side of this: I think as Lisa describes [& If I'm misquoting you, I'm sorry & please correct it if I've taken the wrong impression] that men have also been socialised to express rage, whereas women have been socialised to receive it: and the men socialised not to receivee and put up with it whilst the women have been conditioned to receieve and put up with it. In Short: Men Women Rage Express OK ---> No Receive No OK Love Express No OK Receive OK <--- No What happens when a man and a woman who conform to this [gross generalisation I know, but please put up with it for the sake of my argument :-)] pattern join, is that the partnership is able to deal with all the emotions together: but each of the partners is not able to express and feel them all on their own. Whenever the transactions are operating in reverse, i.e. the woman is feeling angry & frustrated & trying to express it, the ability to express the emotions is doubly hard because as well as the partner trying to express it having taboos, inexperience and socialisation to contend with, their partner is similarly unable to adequately receieve, deal with and accept the transaction. In practical terms, 'You just dont understand' is often the result IMO. But it is partly that the expressing partner does not know how to make them understand because they do not realise this process. Is there an answer to this? I think so - I think all of us, men and women both, need to feel all of the emotions and feel comfortable both receiving and giving love, and also expressing and dealing with our own and other people's anger. I've only just realised this so I shouldnt pontificate - but I would like to ask you Lisa if you will please elaborate on this, I found your words intriguing. Also On this subject, I'm currently writing up a war-and-peace length article titled 'Lindenfield on Anger', it being my experiences of going through Gael Lindenfield's 'Anger Control Workout' tape and the benefits I've got from it. Gael's opinion is that many of us were taught that it's not OK to express anger: that we must repress our emotions and keep a 'stiff upper lip'. She advises us to first of all realise that we have a right to feel justified anger, but that we can also choose to release it in ways which do not harm ourselves, and do not harm others. She then takes us through all the ways [& she gives a breathtaking amount of them] in which we tend to unassertively, agressively & deviously release anger , following programmed and conditioned patterns of behaviour we have learnt in childhood and through our adult lives. Gael asserts that it's hard for people who want to be 'nice' all the time to release anger because they often dont think they have the right to; She gives various affirmations which help the listener overcome this resistance, e.g. I have a right to feel justified anger. I can choose to express my anger in a way which does not harm myself. I can choose to express my anger in ways which do not harm others. [I myself plug affirmations like these into my self-hypnosis sessions.] I'll save the rest of this stuff for that article, it's turned into a monster but I hope you'll like it. Let me respond to the last of your points: > To expect that life will always be hugs and kisses is to turn a blind eye to > ones own internal rage and to live out of balance. It is only by accepting > that there is love and hate, good and evil within each of us that we can > begin to find the balance we need to live whole, joyous lives. I agree. I think we need to express our rage, and to admit that we're not all squeaky-clean all the time. As I said about talking to my Christian friends, allowing the hurts, the dark thoughts & the fearful thoughts we have about each other into the open lets us deal with them - and after doing that, we find that after the turbulence in the bowl of our minds has settled that it has done so at a higher level than before. David Icke went through this; there was a time when he could not walk down a street in Britain without people pointing and laughing at him because he had been reported as claiming to be 'the Son of God'. [He has remarked that it's a pity he's not the Messiah since it wouldnt half save him ferry fares from the Isle of Wight :-)]a He has also had to put up with outrageous allegations of racism and antisemitism recently, which are so utterly unfounded to anyone who actually listens to him or reads his books that it beggars belief. [David wouldnt know how to be racist if he took a correspondence course. He thinks we've all reincarnated into different bodies in different cultures across the aeons, and is a kind, loving guy not some kind of Nazi. He has repeatedly made it clear that he is not accusing the Jewish people of a conspiracy, and has Jewish people funding his book which he had to self-publish. The 'allegations' are ludicrous to anyone with half a brain.] After even this, David is not reacting with hate at the people who have laughed at him for years and are now trying to say he's dangerous [with some mental gymnastics that should win the Olympics]. He has realised that without understanding the hate, the fear, the guilt, the resentment and the lies which we all have within us, we cant do anything about them. If we pretend to ourselves that we are Mr or Ms Clean all the time, we dont get the opportunity to face ourselves, go within and heal ourselves. Similarly being 'nice' all the time doesnt get things done - some people can find themselves floating around in a spiritual mist never speaking out about or standing up for anything, because they dont have the negative emotions to make them 'get up and get on with it'. Steve Parkhill, the author of 'Answer Cancer' says: 'If you dont stand for something you will fall for anything'. I agree with that; if we dont allow ourselves to speak up in anger when we need to, we lose our grounding in the real world and can end up detached from reality. I read a book recently called 'Stress for Success', by Dr Peter Hanson; Hanson's thesis is that there are two forms of stress: negative and positive. The negative kind he postulates is that which makes us ill, depressed, worried and unable to function; but he describes another kind of stress, that we feel when the adrenalin is going and we are enjoying a good argument or itching for a fight. Hanson's book discusses how to harness the anger and the positive stress we feel and direct it to fruitful ends. Cripes, I really didnt intend to write this much this morning; It's another of my 'special days' when something is likely to happen, so I guess this is todays... [but then the last time I said that 4 more bizarre coincidences hit me straight after :-)] > > To be afraid of the truth of oneself is to live in fear of ones own > rage....and to be unable to acknowledge that that same rage may exist in > another. What think you? I think Lisa, that you have put me to shame. I have been afraid as you describe; and not letting down my wall and asking for a hug and a 'there there' from you did indeed make me unable to acknowledge that that same rage can and does exist in other people. I am very glad to see thought that the same insight and depth of understanding which I cherish in the people I have opened up to does exist in others- including yourself. It takes quite a lot to make me lost for words these days, but I think I am now. I'll end by replying to your last comments: > Well, of course, who doesn't. But methinks it would do you a world of good > to throw yourself on the floor and kick and scream and wail your arms > about....because sometimes a little tantrum is just a wonderful release of > pent up frustrations....and sometimes...it's just plain Fun. > I will - I'm going to go home and do that, and enjoy it. I never thought about whether that could be 'fun' before: I thought of it in terms of releasing negative energy, love etc. But Fun is something I had overlooked a little; Dolores talked about it, and playing - and I understood what she meant at the intellectual level so far, but not experientially. I think Fun is something else you women have a good grasp of, whilst we men have often repressed it in ourselves IMO. I've been smiling, and feeling happy & touched by your message- but not playful as well: I just have never been the kind of guy who has played around for fun with things. I think I understand now: I'm going to go and have a good play with my little kid, have some tantrums and hit some pillows. It's going to be Fun! Warm regards Steve Murray smu2@gcal.ac.uk Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk > Is'e > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:47:06 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Mythconceptions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >communication environments. Gender issues. Imagination, metaphors, >archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the >unconscious. Special focus on how these psychological phenomena >relate to cyberspace. MYTHS Myths..I doubt you mean Theseus and the Minotaur, but it got me thinking and I am going to play around with comparing a whole load of ancient Myths and translating them into Cyber space. This you realise is for my own personal enjoyment and because I am in that sort of mood. Midas springs to mind as a good place to start... Then Orpheus and the Undernet. Narcissus...Pandoras box..(I know all about that one) - the Gorgan could be potentially inflamatory.. Course you could mean Urban myths, in which case I can have fun trying to root out the cyberspace equivelent of the maniac banging on the car roof or the unfortunates who tied grannys corpse to the car roof and had the car stolen, (roofs seem to feature prominantly in urban myth for some reason) On the other hand you could mean Myths, as in Bill Gates is in fact the antichrist or that Elvis has his own Web page, or that there are actually more than 8 people subscribed to this list. Dolores P.S Wilbur.. I think you could do petulant if you put your mind to it. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:14:12 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: -=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List -=-=-=-= Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walter, At 07:52 AM 6/8/96 GMT, you wrote: >A thought: here is the list description, i think it is a long way >removed from "do your own thing", from a hippy philosophy . . . while >at the same time not rejecting those values either, embracing them, >moving on . . . If you don't let go of something, then how do you have space to move on? >-=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List -=-=-=-= > >Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the effects >of email groups and lists on group life and the psyche. That's what I'd like to understand.. >The list is a >starting point for depth psychological work on the net. For who? > >Topics include: Topics? I thought that the topic was above? > >The art of leadership in communication networks. Cool! >Creating communication environments. That's fits also.. >Gender issues. Huh, how does that fit into the above? I'm sure that men and women percieve things a bit differently, but isn't this a bit off the topic? >Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the >unconscious. Open the floodgates, let everything in.. >Special focus on how these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace. I'm not sure that I understand, how the above fit into the "effects of email groups and lists on group life and the psyche?" Or given the experimental learning model that has been put forth, we can engage in any sort of behaviour, so long as we find some way to relate it back to the effect that it has on us? Seems like a can of paint splashing on the wall.. Interesting patterns, but is it art? >Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience of >the medium. We voice that learning. Forming relationships of a >collegial nature around our psychological net interests is an >important part of the work. This is the justification for the experimental learning.. so we express what we express, so long as we also express our insight into it's effect into ourselves? How about how expressing how that insight effects how we effect ourselves? Then how the effect of expressing our insight effects how that insight effects how we effect ourselves? >The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which includes >psychological professional services on the net such as one-to-one >Personal Exploration and professionally facilitated email groups. The >list is also a place for professional collaboration in the development >of ethical depth work of this nature. Announcements about Psybernet >services will be made in this list. Gee, I missed that part.. got stuck in an endless loop of introspection above.. >The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman. Discussion of how the list >is facilitated is integral to its purpose. So Mila was right in the list of topics to discuss? >Psyber-L is archived and >these are available to members with an index psyber-l command to the >listserv. > Someday I'll have to go back and read the archive.. So it seems that so long as we express insight, and how this list effects us, and using the "Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious" as a kick off point, we can express anything that we wish. Since I can easily say that anything that I might express fits into these categories.. I see this as license to basically do what I want. I'm always insightful, (just the way that I am), so I can crank any topic around as long as I express my insight.. In short, I get to "do my own thing". Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:14:15 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Petulant Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Petulant? What is Petulant? I'm sick of this "Petulant" stuff.. I recognize the word, but I don't really know what it means.. I'll have to look it up, what a *#$*# waste of time. Imagine the nerve, telling me that I can't do "Petulant".. Let's see, from "Webster's Collegiate Dictionary" .. Petulant - adj. showing sudden irritation, esp. over some trifling annoyance; peevish.. Oh. Never mind.. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:36:31 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Spelling Bee To Steve, and Walter, and the others who seem to have a problem with this: It's IS'E. rhymes with dizz'y. Is'e. Eye Essss Apostrophe Eeeee. Is'e. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:36:28 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Re: Mythconceptions Dolores write: > >On the other hand you could mean Myths that there are actually >more than 8 people subscribed to this list. You think? I thought it was just four or five people with multiple personalities I mean screen names. > >P.S Wilbur.. I think you could do petulant if you put your mind to it. I think he needs lessons! Is'e Oh yeah...the myth thing reminded me of Rover's tribute to the mermaid and of a fun little a poem I wrote invoking the Imp of the Perverse..... thought I might share it... <<<<<>>>>> Mersong When 'ere I rose from the dew stretching long scaled fin on sun dappled rocks and plucked seaweed pods like daisies: fain to imitate those fair legged beauties. choosing my lover on a whim: breathing in the scent of him on the current: his face forming in the mist. When I lay back spreading arms to sun on salt crusted rocks calling to one: plucking from his reverie the image of his far-off fair love: and rise from the rocks like that memory. into my outstretched arms he comes willingly: and for a moment I regret how his beauty pales beneath the waves. Does she know? does she stand on some far shore on her lovely alabaster legs? does she breathe in the scent of his disgrace or hear my laughter on the wind that mangles her hair? The sea will wash his bones of her remembrance long after I have forgotten him: having claimed the others. searching for the one who holds the image I would know. But their simple minds hold only this: how they remember her in their leaving taking: eyes cast down as she turns away in anguish from the sorrowful sea. Oh how I would hold her heart in the seafoam of my soul! Oh how her lips would part for the tender waves I would send crashing o'er her joy! Thus for their ships that yet refuse her tiny feet: a thousand hulls will crush upon these rocks: a thousand souls will scream the lullably I have recorded like an echo in the fog. For these are vain and foolish men who trumpet my desire. and I remember long the day I saw her cut the mist all proud at the fore of that swift silent ship. Anger rose like bile that day and seas frothed in my rage. seeing her image on that hull I thought to lure her to my lair: to pull her off that hated prow: only to find her splinter there. These mortals with their awkward gait think to fathom me yet serve me only an effigy of her. shall I my sorrow then unleash on those thousand weary souls? then will my beloved cross this foam and plait her hair with mine? The mist is rising 'ere I wake: I will call another here. the shadow of her beckons again: the wind will form her soundless name. into the silence I begin to sing a sea cradle song the sailors know and fear: the song is me. (c) L.D.McCulley all rights reserved 96.48.20 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:06:54 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Re: Mythconceptions In-Reply-To: <199606081247.NAA04644@easynet.co.uk> from "Laurel" at Jun 8, 96 01:47:06 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dolores wrote: > > >communication environments. Gender issues. Imagination, metaphors, > >archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the > >unconscious. Special focus on how these psychological phenomena > >relate to cyberspace. I only recently read the list purpose description; [bit of an inditement, huh, after lurking for 18 months :-)] But I like it, and find I may actually be on topic with the things I've said after all. I have *reams* to say on the unconscious, archetypes and synchronicity and on hypnosis / NLP / somnambulism / psychic things / magick. My take on dreams is pretty outrageous [sound of no-one collapsing in the background in disbelief at that] , but it's quite interesting; Aside from the astral / waking / near death experience kind, I was told by a psychic friend that using an astrological birth chart to pinpoint why we are here in this life, we can ask for dreams on particular aspects and be told what we have come here to do - effectively talking to God. I took this with a large pinch of salt until I had seven such dreams on the first night; with hindsight a few months on, the conclusions I was given from them seem to have measured up pretty well. I am no expert on this - about the same level of competence as a learner driver to my friend's Nigel Mansell - but it seems to work. And now some of the other people involved in the synchronicity I spoke of are having prophetic dreams, as well. If folk here are interested I'll ask 'Nigel' to elaborate. :-) I'll post more thoroughly on this when I have time. having realised that most of my stuff is probably admissable and relevant here after all, I wont mailbomb you all with it all at once; but I think I will be a regular here from now on. You folks are becoming rather important in my life ....! :-) > > > I am going to play around with comparing a whole load of ancient Myths and > translating them into Cyber space. This you realise is for my own personal > enjoyment and because I am in that sort of mood. Go for it! Looking forward to it. > > Course you could mean Urban myths, in which case I can have fun trying to > root out the cyberspace equivelent of the maniac banging on the car roof or > the unfortunates who tied grannys corpse to the car roof and had the car > stolen, (roofs seem to feature prominantly in urban myth for some reason) > > On the other hand you could mean Myths, as in Bill Gates is in fact the > antichrist or that Elvis has his own Web page, or that there are actually > more than 8 people subscribed to this list. Actually, William Hill will apparently take a bet for 1 Million to 1 that Elvis Presley will not crash land a UFO on the head of the Loch Ness Monster by the end of the decade. I've thought of going in and putting a pound on out of badness just to worry the staff [they know me ... :-)] And Bill's not the antichrist, he just works for him... :-) Yours amused & having a lot of Fun today, Steve _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 10:01:09 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Petulant Wilbur you give great grin:-) < Petulant? What is Petulant? I'm sick of this "Petulant" stuff.. I recognize the word, but I don't really know what it means.. I'll have to look it up, what a *#$*# waste of time. Imagine the nerve, telling me that I can't do "Petulant".. Let's see, from "Webster's Collegiate Dictionary" .. Petulant - adj. showing sudden irritation, esp. over some trifling annoyance; peevish.. Oh. Never mind.. Wilbur> Here chuckling...savoring the moment of *putting a human face on technology* judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 10:04:15 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Spelling Bee I'Cee, Is'e tks judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 18:15:36 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Re: Spelling Bee In-Reply-To: <5828574.138299973@sbc1.com> from "Judith Buerkel" at Jun 9, 96 10:04:15 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IC 2, Is'e. :-) I think it's important to respect people's wishes and choices over how they want to be addressed; I myself hated getting called 'Steph' or 'Stephen' all the time at school, and getting my family to call me 'Steve' is impossible. That's one of the liberating things about psyberspace I guess, in that we can choose our cybername & ask people to use it with a reasonable chance of them doing so unlike with our family & classmates; So, Is'e it is from now on. And please folks, It's 'Steve', not Stephen or Steven. I *hate* that. :-) The university wont let me have Steve as my mail address [fascists :-)], but I really prefer 'Steve'. It's something I've felt like asking people a few times on the net, but I've never done it for fear of being misinterpreted- but I think being addressed by our friends and acquaintances and colleagues the way we want to be addressed, and knowing that they respect our wishes, is quite an important thing for quite a lot of people. So thanks Is'e, for initiating this - and letting me feel able to ask this after 4 years on the net of putting up with 'Stephen' and grumbling quietly over it. :-) Thoughts, people? Cheers Steve _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:45:31 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Spelling Bee Cheers, Steve :-) judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:37:57 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Afraid of the dark? Comments: cc: davepc@easynet.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello Psyberia! (and Laurel in particular).. Laurel told me that she used to tell her little sister that the monster in the closet's name was Wilbur. (Did he used to eat little children?) That reminds me of what I did to my little brother when we were little. I promised Laurel that I'd tell the story, I'm just getting around to it. So here it is.. My little brother, Mike, is a year and 5 days younger that I am. When he was about 3 years old, and I was four, he used to follow me around with the cute, wide eyed, naivity that makes all children so cute, that point where he doesn't quite understand what he is saying, sometimes understands the world, and other times doesn't seem to have a clue. On the other hand, I had the world all figured out, since I was the man of the house when Dad was gone. He and I watched our first semi-scary movie together, right before bedtime. Mom sent us off to bed, so we grabbed our teddy bears, (I had a Smokey The Bear, "Prevent Forest Fires"). And climbed into our beds, his on one side of the room, mine on the other. Ten minutes after Mom had tucked us into bed, Mike asked me to check for a monster under his bed. I didn't want to, but because I was the "older" brother, (still just 4), I put my fears aside and got up, turned on the light, and then checked under his bed. I explained to him that monster's weren't real, made him look under his bed, which took quite a bit of coaxing, and then turned out the light and tried to get comfortable. Ten minutes later we heard a wire coat hangers in the closet bang into each other, and Mike instantly knew that there was a monster in the closet. He kept begging me to check, since he didn't want to get eaten. I was tired, and told him over and over again to just go to sleep, but he kept asking. I told him that big boys weren't afraid of monsters, and that there wasn't any such thing as monsters. It didn't matter, he kept asking me to check. Angry, I jumped up, turned the lights on, and walked over to the closet. I realized that I was scared to look into the closet, since I didn't have any explaination of what had caused the hangers to bang into each other. I figured at that point that it would be better to open the closet and face the monster than listen to any more of my brothers whining. So I opened up the closet. There was nothing there. My brother didn't believe me. He told me that he had heard the hangers bang into each other, and I told him that I had looked and that there wasn't a monster there. He didn't believe me, and finally I made him come over to the closet and check for himself. He claimed that the monster had climbed up into the shelfs, so I had to climb up and check for him. There wasn't a monster, and finally he seemed satisfied, and climbed back into bed. I turned off the light, climbed back into bed, and turned away from him toward the wall, hoping that I'd be able to get to sleep, since I was very tired. Ten minutes later I was almost asleep when Mike called out that there was a monster in the other closet. That the monster that was in the coat closet had moved into the storage closet. That's why there was no monster in the coat closet. I got up, turned on the lights, opened the door, and made him come right over to the door to see for himself that there wasn't a monster there. All the while explaining that there wasn't any such thing as monsters. Telling him to grow up, like I was, that only "babies" believed in monsters. I told him not to bother me anymore, and that if there was a monster, that I hoped that it would eat him, since at least that way he would be quiet, and I'd get to sleep. I climbed back into bed, and was so tired that I couldn't even see right, and tried to force myself to sleep. Ten minutes later my brother cried out that there was a monster under his bed again. I told him that I was done protecting him from the monster, and that he should call Mom and Dad to protect him. He started loudly screaming that there was a monster under his bed, and Mom and Dad ran into the room, turned on the light, and tried to figure out what was going on. After they showed him that there wasn't a monster under the bed, they turned out the light, and left us in the dark. I thought, "There, now he'll be quiet, he'll believe Mom and Dad." Ten minutes later the wire hangers in the closet pinged again, and Mike started screaming again. Mom and Dad ran into the room again, and they went through the same that I had gone through with him with the coat closet. Mom and Dad were a bit annoyed, but I was exhausted by now, I figured that Mike would have to fall asleep, since he had to be tired also. Ten minutes later, Mike started screaming again... Mom and Dad ran into the room, this time they weren't amused, and told him that they weren't going to check the storage closet, but Mike insisted, and they checked the closet, then showed him there was no monster there. Him standing there holding his teddy bear close, peeking into the closet where he was sure the monster was. I was angry, even beyond angry now. They told him that it was late, and that no matter what he heard, that he should just go to sleep, since there was no such thing as monsters, and they didn't want him to bother them anymore. I lay in bed and couldn't go to sleep. I was exhausted, but I couldn't even sleep, and I knew that the real monster was in the next bed. After about 10 minutes I could hear that his breath was getting even and deeper, which I knew meant that he was falling asleep. I was wide awake now, and he was falling asleep! I was so tired that it hurt, my eyes hurt, my head hurt. Then I had an idea! I crept out of bed and lay face down on the floor. I listened to my brother's breathing. He was still asleep or falling asleep, his breathing was slow and quiet. The floor had squeaked, but he hadn't woken up. I pushed against the floor with my hands, moved my body about 4 inches towards his bed, and then relaxed against the floor again to listen to his breathing, trying to inch over and not squeak the floor to wake him up. Sure that I hadn't woken him up, because I could hear that his breathing hadn't changed, I crept another couple of inches toward him. He couldn't see me because I was below the level of the bed, and he was too far back from the edge of his bed to see the floor. I crept another couple of inches, stopped to listen to his breathing. Then crept another couple of inches, the floor squeaked, and I was terrified that he would wake up.. his breathing didn't change, I could see the shadows on the walls, hear the wind outside, but he wasn't waking up. The floor was cold, I was cold, but I didn't care, I was going to make sure that he never worried about the monster in the closet. I realized that I was going to scare him terribly, but I didn't care, I couldn't sleep, so why should he be able too? Finally I got close enough to his bed, I raised my head up so that I could see him, took a deep breath, and screamed at the top of my lungs. "I'm going to eat you! Arrrrgggghhhh!" My brother screamed and tried to climb up the wall. He was screaming at the top of his lungs, doing his best to get away, but he was cornered, and all that he could do was jump back and try to climb the wall. I had a big grin on my face. "I'm a monster. I'm going to eat you!" I was holding my head up, a big smile on my face. I kept on screaming like a monster.. Mike kept on screaming and trying to claw his way up the wall.. then the light came on and Mom and Dad ran into the room. I got a spanking for that one. I managed to fall asleep feeling really bad, until I realized that it was worth the spanking since Mike was never again going to worry about the monster under the bed or in the closet. And even if he did, he would never bother me with it again. I'd do it again. Mike still doesn't enjoy it when I tell this story. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:23:04 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Lovely quote MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, I'm coming up for the third time with some personal crises at the moment, but I just found this quote which inspired the heck out of me & wanted to share it with you. Steve > > Some of you may have already seen this quote, but I saw it for the first time today and > found it quite inspirational. > > "People are illogical, unreasonable, and self-centered. > Love them anyway. > > If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish ulterior motives. > Do good anyway. > > If you are successful, you win false friends and true enemies. > Succeed anyway. > > The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow. > Do good anyway. > > Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable. > Be honest and frank anyway. > > The biggest men with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest men with the > smallest minds. > Think big anyway. > > People favor underdogs but follow only top dogs. > Fight for a few underdogs anyway. > > What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight. > Build anyway. > > People really need help, but may attack you if you do help them. > Help them anyway. > > Give the world the best you have and you'll get kicked in the teeth. > Give the world the best you have anyway." > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:37:32 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Re: Afraid of the dark? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960614023757.006e66f8@monmouth.com> from "Wilbur Streett" at Jun 13, 96 10:37:57 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, I've been having a think about Wilbur's 'Afraid of the dark' tale & it's intrigued me; This article's rather entrenched in my own opinions, it should all have a large 'IMO only' tacked onto it, and I apologise in advance if it offends anyone, it's not meant to. I've been afraid of the dark for a long number of years, not least because I 'know' - and I'll put a large *IMO* on all of this - that there are things in the darkness which I would not want to meet. I leave the light on at night in fact: although as I understand it this wouldnt necessarily keep the things away I have had fear of, it has comforted me to know that if I wake up & there is something in the room, I will at least see it. In Wilbur's tale, his brother's belief that there is something there which he cant cope with is his problem IMO- not because of whether or no t there really is something there IMO, but because he thinks there might be and doesnt know how to deal with it. I too 'know' that there is something there, in the darkness - but I am no longer afraid of it, because I 'know' that it cant harm me now. The beauty of Wilbur's trick on his brother IMO is in that it doesnt actually *matter* to his brother whether something really is there in the dark, in the closet, wherever: what matters is that he cant deal with the fact that there might be. In my own belief, we attract to us what we most fear: if we keep thinking 'there's something nasty in the closet' and that we are powerless against it, then we will most likely put ourselves in a sorry state whether or not there is indeed something in the closet. Now a kid cant usually handle all sorts of complex theory and ideas about the occult, about creating your own reality , synchronicity etc.: faced with a scared child , the best thing you can probably do is convince them that there is nothing there to be afraid of: trying to convince them that there may be something there but they are safe anyway isnt likely to wash with a frightened child. And a trick such as Wilbur's is probably IMO the best thing you can do for a child like that; When we as adults have a fear of the dark however, it is a different matter IMO: particularly when we have good reason to 'know' that there are indeed things there in the darkness. In this case, convincing ourselves that there is nothing there - or being tricked into believe it- may not be possible, or the best option. At this stage, I think it is better in the long run - for myself anyway - to realise that it is not the fact that there is or is not something there in the darkness that is the crucial factor in removing the fear - it is whether or not we believe we are safe. If we believe we are safe, loved, approved of, trusted, cared for and are worthy of respect, affection, compassion, empathy, all the positive, kind and gentle emotions: then I believe we create that reality around us wherever we go. That includes not being afraid of the dark: because we understand that if we take our own power to think for ourselves, to create our own reality and to choose a personal world full of love and happiness, then the dark isnt going to 'get' us. Not because it theoretically cant, but because we believe it will not and we manifest that belief around us. It's a subtle distinction and one which it would not IMO be reasonable to expect a child to make - and for many people who do not want to tread the paths of synchronicity & spirituality, Wilbur's trick or a version of it may be their best option. But if we can see the distinction between feeling safe regardless of what is there, and knowing that we can create a safe, positive, loving reality in every sphere we enter - not just not being afraid of the dark, but not being afraid of losing our homes, our jobs, our loved ones, our relationships, our very selves - again not because we cant theoretically lose them and not because there are not bad things in the world: but because we know that we are the creators of our own destiny, and that we can choose not to be afraid. Louise Hay says all this far better than I can in 'You can heal your life'; That together with the many wonderful people I have met recently has healed my own fear and let me look into many closets. And who knows - someday I may even turn out the light at night again. :-) Steve Murray Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 01:17:26 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Deep in a Wide Wide World. Dear All, Revisiting something that has been discussed on Psybernet since the very start, and many times since. We are in a time of width. Post-modernism perhaps. Wide and meaningless. We are on the world wide web. However the Psybernet project is definitely modern, and aiming at depth not width. We look to having boundaries, form, shape, looking under the surface, going to the roots, radical, developing a form, a place, a system, a method, what I world now call temenos. Yet this Psybernet Mailing List is wide indeed. Wilbur in a post called "Re: Psybernet Mailing List" on Fri, 7 Jun 1996, put it this way: | So it seems that so long as we express insight, and how this | list effects us, and using the "Imagination, metaphors, | archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, | and the unconscious" as a kick off point, we can express | anything that we wish. Since I can easily say that anything that | I might express fits into these categories.. I see this as license | to basically do what I want. I'm always insightful, (just the | way that I am), so I can crank any topic around as long as I | express my insight.. | In short, I get to "do my own thing". Perhaps. As long as the insight is also how the psyche is revealed through this media -- how it is psybernettic -- then we are on track. We do that, and as we follow our learning it leads on to other projects . . . a narrowing down occurs. Thus we cast our net wide on the web, and meet with others who are similar, and then focus down, until we have something like our Glass Bead Game Dream Event, specialised indeed. PsyberGroups. The whole enterprise is in the tradition of "depth psychology" which looks through the surface to the complexes and archetypes. This move to narrow, more abstract, deeper, tighter, smaller came to me as we are working in the Dream Event, on mapping the group onto the WaterBird Board, making something that "captures" the whole event. The underlying deep (!) reasons for the quiet on this list of late is, in the true nature of the unconscious is a mystery, and will remain so. Working with the depth however is to work in the dark, with the unknown, with the mysterious. I am curious if others sense stirrings in the depths. I do . . . I will be adding more on this theme. Warm wishes to all, Walter (not able to re surface fully while involved in the current PsyberGroup, and also looking forward to that time.) _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L