To: Walter Logeman Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9604" From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)" Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:43 -0400 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:56:33 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: On Buber dialogs Robert, first of all, thank you for the lovely Buber citate: >> There is genuine dialogue -no matter whether spoken or silent- where each of the participants really has in mind the other or others in their present and particular being and turns to them with the intention of establishing a living mutual relation ... << Of course I'd like to turn to you intending to engage in a living mutual re- lation. But how do I get in mind "you in your *present* and particular being" given only impressions I've got days before - because of several time lags in- herent in geography as well as technicalities of the distribution process? Addreesing you I've to rely on what you wrote - on Friday I was struck by hea- ring you speak in a soft, soothing timbre lulling me into refraining from ar- gumenting this way - indeed, into letting go instead of responding... This magic has gone today, so I'm thrown back to your last words: >> It's time for me to send this off and prepare for my classes. indicating - for me at least - you'll undergo some experiences far beyond my being able to follow. So you can't be, by whatever means, that Robert again, whom I met on Friday and whom I have in mind responding. So my trying to talk/argue to you per se can't meet Buber's criteria of authenticity. On the other hand, we know of exchanges of letters having entered the Fame hall of literature for their authenticity where the parties have met face-to-face... Let me put it thus: Buber's criteria are too tight to be applicable for (even e-)letters,but authen- ticity of an exchange in writing can be decided by pragmatic analysis (in the sense of PEIRCE) of a long run of dialog text. And so there may be programs displaying the Rogers trias - as a corollary... A la prochaine Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:32:04 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Kathleen Gwin Subject: Whispers? I am most intrigued by the lurkers. Every time I post to a list I cannot help but read it through their eyes, imagining myself in a movie of sorts, my letter being read by the crowd, but only being commented on by the characters... Or, when I'm less profound, I'm in an open street theatre, people passing by on the avenue, looking for a while, then going on about their business. But who are we, the 'actors'? Who has written our impromptu play, what is the point that we are searching for, I suppose we could flip to the last page of the book, but then we'd have nothing to do for the rest of the afternoon. Kathleen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:14:23 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Touching a whisper In-Reply-To: Robert and all, > All these new > psyberians, some visiting, some window shopping, and probably a few moving > into the neighbourhood in hopes that they build a new home (like myself). I > picture life in a _list_ as somewhat like living in a town that has a high > percentage of temporary residents. A transient community on a backwater road > that is more suited to motorcycle mechanics practising a zen moment. That fits as you say it, though I had not seen it. The imagination throws up images that we have no say over, this "place" and our psyche evokes them . . . that is why I like to call it psyberspace. Just as I am writing Kathleen has come in with the image street theatre -- that fits too (for me?). My image of the conference hall is fading -- I guess that was such a strong image as it cast me so squarely in the role of facilitator. What does a facilitator do in a town? I the theatre? > Mila and Nanci have spoken to all of us > casting their communication ripples into the pond of this neophyte > community. The old psyber-l disappeared with the opening of the gates. We are in a new dimension -- perhaps building a new town where some old timers lived before the influx. > Thankfully, the residents of the previous life of psyber-l have stayed to > share this new life (re-incarnation of a list). It isn't so silent after all. Most have -- and most were lurkers and still are. There is always the mystery of what keeps them here. Like Kathleen I put myself into their shoes -- but the mystery never goes away. > We're thinking before opening our mouths. It's very different when you've > been invited into someone's home (this isn't a new list), than if you've > arrived in a new trailer home park at the same time as everyone else. As we > reach the point of committing our voices to dialogue (at least for a few > moments) we do so out of faith and hope that our voices belong here. Until > then we remain silent. If the community doesn't meet our hoped for > expectations, we either unsub or forget about group's existence until it > becomes a mailbox problem. And that all fits too . . . it remains a conjecture, however close to the truth. > We exist on several planes at the same > time and are different beings on each plane. The only connection from one > plane to the other is the _soul_ which defines each of us. < bodies. We are not our minds.>> (Eknath Easwaran - Meditation) I love the more concrete manifestation of being on different planes that being here gives me. Perhaps we do live on many planes at once -- this seems to be a way of making visible one that is usually hidden. > Old metaphors can't fit. I wonder if we couldn't find a myth that is apropos > for the situation. Do we die to the world and find ourselves born in the new dimension? Outside of space and time -- (alluding to Mila's post on how we grapple with time here) -- could the myth be found in our stories of the afterworld? Hades? > Maybe, the silence is not so silent. Like a voiced message, we experience, > we reflect, we worry, we build, we react, we suffer, and we find ourselves > faced yet once again with ourselves. Where ever I go, there I am. Ah yes! > ps - Hi Nanci! No, whispering isn't necessary. Let your voice ring with its > songs for us. Welcome! It's good to have another join with me on this new > journey of awakening. The image that comes now is of the dawn (I think it was in the old movie musical of Porgy and Bess) first there are whispers and they build and build until there is the full burst of song! Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 21:18:04 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Vicki Colker Subject: Don't call me a lurker! Please don't throw me in a bin with the lurkers! I've never wanted to be a member of the chorus: I always wanted a speaking role, and a big one at that. I'm Vicki, a redhead in Austin, Texas. Unlike many of you, I have no formal training in psychology/therapy/social work. My background is in writing and marketing, with serious interests in poetry, alternative health and cooking. However, since entering the world of the Internet (and what an incredible world it is!) I have become more and more fascinated with relationships as they evolve on-line, and strongly convinced that this medium is transforming culture in ways beyond our current comprehension. Now I find myself considering the nature of reality, particularly in relationships. I wonder how the greater lack of prejudice on-line (can't see, can't hear, can't pre-judge) influences relationships, both initially and long-term. And how are we to discern between appropriate posturing on-line and downright artifice? I am eager to meet more of you, share ideas and learn. Vicki _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 21:30:19 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Vicki Colker Subject: Don't call me a lurker! Please don't throw me in a bin with the lurkers! I've never wanted to be a member of the chorus: I always wanted a speaking role, and a big one at that. I'm Vicki, a redhead in Austin, Texas. Unlike many of you, I have no formal training in psychology/therapy/social work. My background is in writing and marketing, with serious interests in poetry, philosophical concepts and alternative health. However, since entering the world of the Internet (and what an incredible world it is!) I have become more and more fascinated with relationships as they evolve on-line, and strongly convinced that this medium is transforming culture in ways beyond our current comprehension. Now I find myself considering the nature of reality, particularly in relationships. I wonder how the greater lack of prejudice on-line (can't see, can't hear, can't pre-judge) influences relationships, both initially and long-term. And how are we to discern between appropriate posturing on-line and downright artifice? I am eager to meet more of you, share ideas and learn. Vicki _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 15:51:15 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: The possibility of authenticity. [Was: Don't call me a lurker!] In-Reply-To: Hi Vicki > And how are we to discern between appropriate posturing on-line and > downright artifice? Indeed! It seems we are on a _plane_ where we can be in a new town or on a theatre at the same time. How can we establish what is real? A theme is emerging on this nature of reality, and no wonder . . . I am intrigued that you oppose artifice with appropriate posturing . . . is the possibility of _authenticity_ here for you? > I am eager to meet more of you, share ideas and learn. Welcome. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:44:43 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe.. Perhaps I share my reason for lurking with some other people in Psybernet.. I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv groups.. I've cut a deal with my ISP that I'll put up the listserv software and manage it for him, in exchange for commercial space and anonymous ftp services.. So a discussion of the psychology of the participants of listserv groups would be very useful for me, since I'll be managing and owning several in the not so distant future. I haven't seen anything about the psychology of participation in a listserv. On the other hand, I have seen statements that this is to be self-help, group therapy list, complete with people with a professional background in Psychology and therapy. Given that most self-help groups are by nature anonymous, and this list isn't ... Given that self-help isn't something that can be done with a mixture of people that believe that they have professional qualification's and are therefore more qualified than the other members of the group, and given the backdrop of a game designed to plumb the depths of conciousness, I have to wonder what sort of flame wars and personal attacks are going to surface here. Given the definition of this group, I think that I have to be lurker for a while until I can get a feel what what is the real reason for this group. So far there doesn't seem to be a reason, but several, all that work at cross-purposes with each other, and no participation in any discussion on the psychology of participants of listserv groups... I'll hang around a while longer and see if anyone actually starts to discuss the psychology of listserv groups, but I'm not about to participate in a free for all, non-anonymous, self-help, group therapy session with a mixture of professional and amatuer therapists and no focused goals. I'm on the verge of unsubscribing, since I'm not getting what I was looking for.. PS. This isn't intended to be flame bait. Wilbur Streett --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:41:09 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: a triple knot... Psyberians: I try to imagine what it must be like to open up one of the "PLG" posts in mid-stream, so to speak, perhaps not having followed the Game at the beginning, but wanting to drop by as it developed -- or coming onto the list in the last day or two, with only a brief mention of a Game of some kind in Walter's introductory post to orient you. And I feel a little daunted. I imagine it as feeling something like coming across a triple knot, perhaps half wanting to untie it, half not knowing why one should. Because these posts are in fact triply complex: first, because the Game itself takes some understanding; second, because the way Stephen and I have played this particular Game has been unusually complex in and of itself, and third because coming in some time in the middle of a complex conversation adds further complexity to the situation... So I'd like to untie things a little, explain a bit... and offer you some resources if you'd like to move further into it. There was a quiet spell on the list over Christmas -- the usual "Christmas lull" perhaps, except that it seemed to extend from somewhat earlier than one might expect until well after the holiday season was over. Stephen broke the silence with a flurry of posts in which, among other things, he mentioned that I had mentioned earlier that I had been working on an on-line Game with therapeutic overtones, and asked me to tell more... With Walter's warm encouragement, we decided to play a Game to explore the symbolism of a list member's dream -- but thought it might be wise to play one round of a "regular" Game first -- ie, one that was not therapeutically oriented or concerned with a specific dream. Stephen volunteered to play a Game with me, and the "PLG" posts began... The Games themselves are pretty simple: you have a board (the WaterBird board is one of several) with numbered circles and lines connecting them, and the players take turns "naming" ideas to the circles in such a way that associations between the ideas can be read along the lines connecting the circles. A child can do it -- she plays "jump", her friend plays "moon", she plays "green cheese". But things get more complex (knot #1) when you play not just for associations between ideas, but for "richness" or "depth" of associations. The thing here is that if two linked moves refer to ideas that have a very special kind of "fit" or "twinning" between them, holding both of them in the mind in a contemplative sort of way *at the same time* can give you a sort of mental "stereo effect" which is really quite wonderful. But our Game here was in some ways more than usually difficult to follow (knot #2) because of the styles of play Stephen and I brought to the Game: Stephen in particular made his moves very intuitively (so that the links were present but sometimes hidden), and both of us -- and a few list members besides -- poured a considerable amount of "amplification" into the process, in the form of extended posts about our insights, personal memories and archetypal understandings while playing the Game... All of which made for a Game that must run close to 40 pages... And (knot #3) you may have stumbled into the middle of all this unawares... * I hope the above explains some of what has been going on in those "PLG" posts a little better. I will be updating my "summary" of the Game to include its ending quite soon, and posting it to the list, and I believe Stephen has a similar intention to post his own overview... The two posts will almost certainly come at our Game from very different angles, and it should be interesting to see where they overlap and where they most clearly diverge... If you want to go deeper into it, the full text of our Game can be found on Stephen's web pages, beginning at: >>> http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html There are some much shorter Games you can read at the HipBone Homepage: >>> http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/index.html One of them is a light-hearted historical romp through various royal beheadings and exhumations, one of them takes a serious look at the similarities between Yeats and Jung, and one of them is a sample game -- which I posted to this list a while back -- written to illustrate how a "dream" Game might work. And if you want to go deeper still, there is a low-volume list you can join -- Walter asked me to post some information on this -- which is devoted to "spirituality in games" in general, and to the design of variants on Hermann Hesse's *Glass Bead Game* in particular. You can find a detailed list description at: >>> http://drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu/~jae/magister.html To subscribe, just drop me e-mail saying that's what you'd like to do. * Now that the first ("regular") Game is over, I'd suggest we take a break before diving into a dream Game. Let's allow the new members to settle in, give the new threads time to weave their magic, and *begin* thinking about suitable dreams over the next couple or three weeks... Hoping this helps, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone@earthlink.net "a virtual music of ideas" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:41:26 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: PLG Move 10 Comments: To: hoon@apk.net Stephen, Walter, all: Here is the final move in our Game... * The song of the troubador in 7 is the cry of every questing soul: "Ah waves say unto me / Why my lover lingers away from me"... More specifically, it is the cry of the Languedoc, of the people who gave us the troubadors and Catharism, of an emergent feminine sensibility in the masculine and brutal world of the crusades... Stephen links the burning shadows at 9 with the burning of the Cathar stronghold of Montesgur -- yet there is not only an immolation, but also an awakening here. In position 6, we have a child, Sophie, taking a monumental step. Sophie, Sophia, is named for the feminine principle of wisdom, who in gnostic mythology is the redemptrix of man: in one version of the myth, she takes form as a prostitute: she saves man by leading him into his body, into his armor, his "locked" musculature, into his feelings. These are the three positions to which my final move in position 10 must link. * I would like, though, to echo at this end of the board in move 10, the quotation from Hopkins at the beginning in 1, and it is another Hopkins quote that I will play here: Charles plays Move 10, "a heart's-clarion" in position 10. * knife and wound 4 * |** * | *** * | **** * | ***** * | ****** * | ******* peculiar people | ***** sophie 2---------------|---------------6 * | ** | *******| * * | **** | ******| * * | ****** | *****| * * | ********| ****| * * | ******|*** ***| * * | ****|******* **| * niche of | [sword]***** I awake: I see a heart's 1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10 the lance | **|****** burning shadows, clarion * | ****|******* **| * * | ******|*** ***| * * | ********| ****| * * | ****** | *****| * * | **** | ******| * three strange angels | my lover lingers away from me 3---------------|-------********7 * | ******** * | ******* * | ****** * | ***** * | **** * | *** who...would hear me? 5 * The phrase comes from Hopkins' great poem, "That Nature is a Heraclitean Fire and of the Comfort of the Resurrection". Hopkins has just described at some length how insignificant the human individual is in the greater sweep of things, whom "death blots black out; nor mark / Is any of him at all so stark / But vastness blurs and time beats level." Then, in a commanding voice, "Enough!" he writes, "the Resurrection, / a heart's clarion!" Stephen's "burning shadows" I would link specifically to Hopkins' phrase "world's wildfire, leave but ash"... But I will leave it to each of you to look up the poem if you so choose, and say only that it is both tough and wonderful. * Saint Paul speaks of the "resurrection body"... and as a gnosticizing poet myself, I view this body as existing not in some "afterlife" heaven, but in this heaven here now. It is the body into which Sophie leads us, into which our immolation awakens us -- the body, also, in which we greet the Beloved we yearned for... But it is not resurrection itself, but the "heart's-clarion" announcing it which this move invokes... < end of move > * With this final move, the Game ends. I am most grateful to Stephen for playing it with me, and to Walter for inviting us to play it on list. This particular Game began with three strange angels knocking at a door: I trust we have opened that door a little. I bow thrice in all directions. -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone@earthlink.net "a virtual music of ideas" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:55:01 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Re: Another Psyber-newbie Hi Walter, Thank you for introducing me to more and more newcomers. Having set the automaton to ACK, I get current numbers as a by-product. >> So how is it so far for you here? I hope you are still here -- though some are leaving. << As I told Robert today, on Friday I had some first exp in hearing your e-mail voices - not quite whispering, but soothing and lulling me out of argumentation composure. It was the first sudden relaxation exp since I underwent Rogers ther- apy first. It's a pity you could not see me calm down instantly - that sudden I wasn't able to e-mail a short notice of what was happening Proposed goal: short codes for body exps. It may not always easy to decide quickly if I'm here, but rest assured I'm pre- sent on workdays - although there'll be an Easter leave. >> Wow. That means that this list must have some relevance to you as that sort of professional development is one of its purposes. << Good luck I've fonud it - via NEW LISTS. >> Yet I see a face-to-face group! I enjoyed my attempt to see this gathering more as described in Robert's poem: "Silence is a Time for Whispering" , but I return all too easily to a drier image of the large quiet room, where you and I are now whispering. Being the list owner I see that several have left as we gather . . . I have no idea who they are . . . and have learnt that this is OK here in cyberspace -- in a face-to-face group it would be disturbing. << True, group dynamics appears in other vestiges than in F-F-comm. Hopefully group members here have their own feet to stand on. I could tell you on more or less subtle leadership in other lists. (Case stories.) >> What of the silence here . . . what are we learning from that? I am learning from it. One thing I learn is about its intensity _for me_. It is as if I hear it all day!<< Maybe we've got different internal models of psyberspace in general. Mine is: Whose impact on me I sense, is counted to exist. Lurkers are not. I'm aware of the similarity of this model to academic publication race; but -sorry- there's no semantics to silence. >> > If there's an urge to pour out your heart to me instantly, please feel free > to write to me in private. I'll try to respond asap. I will send you a copy of this . . . but I would really appreciate our continued discussion, to be in the open . . . space -- list -- group? << I too. The invitation was for those having problems they wish to tell instantly, *not* for group talk... About "asap": As I'm located near Bonn, Germany, there are six hours difference in local time between the majority of psyberers and myself... >> What sort of net counselling were you hoping to develop? Have you had exp in face-to-face or on the net counselling? What do you envisage? << I'm after doing some Rogers-type counseling I learned during a wild and beautiful therapy. I've had some success in F-F-counseling as well as via letters. Online counseling I've yet to explore and to train; but if having built a relationship, there are signs it might work, too. Perhaps I might go to the list for supervision? I'm envisaging semi-automation of the counseling process, too; it's the dis- cussion with the list that have brought forth some small progress. I'll take some leave for Easter, responding last to today's digest. Best wishes to the list, Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:19:28 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe.. Wilbur, I'm fascinated by the sheer frankness of your msg. Mind to step thru it with me? >>> I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv groups.. I've cut a deal with my ISP that I'll put up the listserv software and manage it for him, in exchange for commercial space and anonymous ftp services.. So a discussion of the psychology of the participants of listserv groups would be very useful for me, since I'll be managing and owning several in the not so distant future. <<< Wow, a deal that opens you your own research facility. I'd like to have a look into it, if you don't mind to give me the access data to some list of yours. (in private, if you'd like to) >>> I haven't seen anything about the psychology of participation in a listserv. <<< As regards formal papers,not to mention books, so do I.As you might have spotted in my response to Robert, I might tell you a few case stories on informal lea- dership in lists from which we could work out setups for sociological experi- ments within lists, if that's something you're after. >>> On the other hand, I have seen statements that this is to be self-help, group therapy list, complete with people with a professional background in Psychology and therapy. <<< It's to be a list counterpart of facilitated *self-exp* groups, *no* self-help one. Its purpose is to let you *feel* modes of comm in cyberspace. >>> [....]Given that most self-help groups are by nature anonymous, and this list isn't ... Given that self-help isn't something that can be done with a mixture of people that believe that they have professional qualification's and are therefore more qualified than the other members of the group, and given the backdrop of a game designed to plumb the depths of conciousness, I have to wonder what sort of flame wars and personal attacks are going to surface here. <<< If you stress the "self-*help* premise that much, chances are you could miss some of the playful atmosphere here around... Mind to tell me more about your concerns and experiences on flame( war)s? Sounds to me as if you've formed already some hypotheses regarding their ori- gin. If so, sharing them would be a step forward to rigorous setup of your to- pic: Listserv Social psychology. BTW, while you're right in emphasizing (partial) anonymity of self-help groups/ lists, professional facilitation isn't necessary for them. Some of the best-run groups arose out of informal meetings of laypersons sharing a problem which came together via an ad! It was only later on, that the group decided to have a pro in the background for occasional counseling. >>> Given the definition of this group, I think that I have to be lurker for a while until I can get a feel what what is the real reason for this group. <<< Need there be a unique reason, fixed in advance ?? >>> So far there doesn't seem to be a reason, but several, all that work at cross-purposes with each other, and no participation in any discussion on the psychology of participants of listserv groups... <<< For that point, I feel and share your disappointment. I consider your topic hot- new. >>> I'll hang around a while longer and see if anyone actually starts to discuss the psychology of listserv groups, but I'm not about to participate in a free for all, non-anonymous, self-help, group therapy session with a mixture of professional and amatuer therapists and no focused goals. I'm on the verge of unsubscribing, since I'm not getting what I was looking for.. <<< Great you *voiced* your disappointment, instead of unsubbing silently; so we've got a chance to learn from you. THANK you for this your msg. >>PS. This isn't intended to be flame bait. Hope you feel understood by me. You're welcome here - and perhaps we can establish a thread on your topic. Hope you'll have a sunny Easter time! Mila (pr. mee-lah) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 07:54:16 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Storm, I need to speak ... Walter, Steve and other Psyberians, Sunday (yesterday) I learned of the suicide death of a cyberworld friend who didn't even know that I existed. As a lurker on the list that he established, I built myself a silent buddy. Today, I wish that I hadn't been so silent. Steve and Walter, I know that you were active members of this group in its initial stages, and have been an active participant on Matt's list since its conception last October. I hesitated to write to you on the other list because of my silence there. I extend my thoughts to you as a small comfort for a friend lost. I wrote a post to that list then trashed it. Loss seems to be as painful here on the 'net as it does in physical time and space ... maybe more so since we often put up fewer walls. ... It's the next day (Tuesday) already. I had a real shitty sleep plagued with terrible dreams. Relationships online are real. Soul is evident in our words to each other. Welcome to the newest members. I'll post again later to speak with you about your various concerns and opinions. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:47:35 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Vicki Colker Subject: Re: The possibility of authenticity. [Was: Don't call me a lurker!] Dear Walter, Thank you for your warm welcome! (Though I might add I never saw my post appear on the list . . .) >Indeed! It seems we are on a _plane_ where we can be in a new >town or on a theatre at the same time. How can we establish what >is real? Since we always live multiple existences simultaneously, we *should* be skilled at this deduction. However, Psyberia is new territory, it seems, with a reality all its own. >A theme is emerging on this nature of reality, and no >wonder . . . Indeed. I have long held an interest in the nature of reality in everyday time and space. As a consequence of my online life, my beliefs have become snarled and my questions amass. >> And how are we to discern between appropriate posturing >>on-line and >>downright artifice? >I am intrigued that you oppose artifice with appropriate >posturing . . . is the possibility of _authenticity_ here for >you? Why, Walter. . . I'd be the last to argue against sweet augmentation or innocent masquerade. After all, I believe mascara is one of the world's great inventions, after perhaps air conditioning. But posturing is a simple assumption of a pose: ones *authentic* self, but with a different attitude or edge, one that perhaps a person can more easily assume online without the constraints of society or shyness. "Downright artifice," as I so Texanly phrased it, is sheer deception with, as I see it, the intent to benefit at the deceived's expense. If all players are aware of the impersonation, and agree upon such, then all is fair. My question is: how can we determine the degree of artifice or authenticity without the constructs within which we normally make such judgments? Vicki > >_____________________________________________________ >Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz >http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:51:07 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Vicki Colker Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe.. Wilbur, >I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv >groups.. Don't unsub yet! I joined for the same reason. I'm sure we're not the only ones. Vicki _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 10:16:45 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Storm, I need to speak ... Robert, The passing of the list originator of Net_Dynamics came as shocking blow to us all. That list too is involved in the exploration of the psychological dynamics of the internet. There too the content <-> process and social imperative <-> goal imperative are the among the most evident polarities. However, with so much intellectually up in the air there and here, the feeling space and tone that has arisen in the aftermath of the suicide of *community member* of Net_Dynamics suggests, to me, simply that deep community is purchased at the sacrifice of the more narrow expectations about a mailing list working toward definate concrete 'ends'. >Loss seems to be as >painful here on the 'net as it does in physical time and space ... maybe >more so since we often put up fewer walls. Whether or not this is true, we do well to keep in mind as we play on this stage that human beings made up of flesh and blood are doing the typing at their end of the network. And, that the soul we bring to our being here is the stuff of our incarnation and it's becoming in a particular space and time, no matter how we may choose to act out alternative persona(s), roles, and, experiment with identity online. er, IMO Best to all, Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 03:20:06 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe.. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4b12.32.19960402044443.0073dec4@monmouth.com> Hi Wilbur Interesting comments. Challenging too. I thought Mila's response met that challenge with generosity! Yes, this is a broad list -- a starting point or stepping stone to other more focussed activity. Of course this may not be quite what you want . . . but this list would not be doing its job if it was not of practical value in discussing ethics / skills / of list ownership. I am amazed how when I do the technical setting up of lists how I am required to make decisions that will influence the list space -- I recently wrote about that here, likening it to being an architect of cyberspace. One such decision is the point you raise -- degree of anonymity to aim for -- a psychological question to be sure. -- lets say more in a separate thread. > So a discussion of the psychology of the participants of > listserv groups would be very useful for me, since I'll be managing and > owning several in the not so distant future. What sort of things? > I'll hang around a while longer and see if anyone actually starts to discuss > the psychology of listserv groups, but I'm not about to participate in a > free for all, non-anonymous, self-help, group therapy session with a mixture > of professional and amatuer therapists and no focused goals. I'm on the > verge of unsubscribing, since I'm not getting what I was looking for.. > > PS. This isn't intended to be flame bait. I appreciate that and am responding in kind. There are indeed many things happening here, including complex human interaction, probably full of overt and covert feelings and hidden and unconscious meanings which will get misconstrued! In the midst of that we can share our learning! I want to say more: I sense your fear of chaos, flames and purposeless degeneration. Fair enough. It is our job here -- mine in particular -- to attend in such a way that tit does not happen. If we can learn to do it here we can bring that to other lists. The container, the boundary, the holding space of this list will need to be secure enough to enable these intensities to have their life. How can we do that? One thing is respect -- valuing and respecting our diversity, including each others fear and anger. To be conscious of our focus. I expect this list to be true to its stated purpose. It is broad and complex, it encompasses depth psychology, experiential learning and professional work in cyberspace. The description of the list states the focus clearly. (send: get psyber-l.descript to have a look at it. ) We are doing it, our discussion on authentic dialogue, our reflections on _readers_ (lurkers :-) and now on our boundaries is to experientially learn about the psychology of list, and to create the norms for this list. Even as I write I am exploring how I can facilitate our work here, yet not fall into defensiveness, or into persuasion, or into some sort of authority, (let alone _artifice_ and inappropriate posturing!) What ever the outcome . . . we will all learn! Wilbur, how does this sound to you? walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:21:43 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: PLG: Waterbird wrap Greetings, I have posted the final Waterbird Board for the game Charles and I have been playing. http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG5.html I am grateful to Charles for his bringing the game to this space and playing with me and his forebearance. I would encourage my fellow Psyberians to comment and recommend that they start their subject lines with: PLG to help identify the post's point of reference. *** A question, among many, is just what is the feeling-full and feminine import of the internet? Is all of this 'relating' going on in Cyberspace an element of the natural collective compensation favoring greater eros and soul? Or is it a fool's paradise? <|:-0 Old timers here no where I stand. Praising Sophie, Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 17:26:31 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Storm, I need to speak ... In-Reply-To: Robert > Sunday (yesterday) I learned of the suicide death of a cyberworld > friend who didn't even know that I existed. Thanks for bringing that news. I have not been active netdynamics, though I have every message from that list on my hd. I have lurked at times but not enough to be connected with Matt. I went back and read posts including some about Psybernet -- > ... It's the next day (Tuesday) already. I had a real shitty sleep plagued > with terrible dreams. Relationships online are real. Soul is evident in our > words to each other. Relationships are real. This is a place of soul. I have experienced loss here, in a variety of ways including a death. Matt's death impacts on me in that I saw the list he originated as close to the one we have here. Close yet different. The fact that he suicided while on such a list hits home. He was dedicated to exploring list dynamics -- and while I do not understand the dynamics of that list -- something hits me: list dynamics -- the soul in cyberspace (I would call it just as easily) can be connected to the depths in the participants. It fills me with a sense of the importance of our work confirmation almost that we are doing something evolutionary . . . as one person said in netdynam . . . we are moving from the sea and crawling onto the land . . . not knowing what will happen here. This is not the time to look at these dynamics in this way perhaps -- but this is what comes up for me! I have worked in face-to-face with many suicidal people -- I worked in a psych hospital for 6 years -- and I am still working with people where suicide is an option. Always I ask: Who are you close to? Who can you talk to? If there is no-one I ask: Can you talk to me? If I get the nod -- then I know I have a special responsibility to ensure that the connection is open -- I mean psychologically -- not extra sessions or phone calls per se. If people have another human they can connect with I believe they are safe from suicide (there may be exceptions, who knows). Can a list relationship be such a connection? Yes! But then what happened with Matt? It is with these questions in mind I will connect further with Matt . . . I trust it is OK with him that his story is important for me or others who look to this form of communication for life and depth. > Welcome to the newest members. I'll post again later to speak with > you about your various concerns and opinions. I look forward to your contributions -- we have enough to work with for ever it seems -- I trust we will attend to each other as whole people while we focus on the work of the list. Robert, you do that in your posts. thanks. I hope you are grieving this death just as is right for you, and giving it all the attention this occasion demands. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 00:42:45 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe.. At 01:19 PM 4/2/96 +0200, you wrote: >Wilbur, >I'm fascinated by the sheer frankness of your msg. Mind to step thru it with me? > >>>> >I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv >groups.. I've cut a deal with my ISP that I'll put up the listserv software >and manage it for him, in exchange for commercial space and anonymous ftp >services.. So a discussion of the psychology of the participants of >listserv groups would be very useful for me, since I'll be managing and >owning several in the not so distant future. ><<< >Wow, a deal that opens you your own research facility. I'd like to have a look >into it, if you don't mind to give me the access data to some list of yours. >(in private, if you'd like to) > That's not the only research that I'm doing. I'm creating a company to commercialize a new computer interface, the human face. I'm busy working to put a human face on the computer that you can talk with "Face to Face". I intend to use the listserv groups as a mechanism in the development of the cultural nexus about this technology. I also intend to use it as a way to help me understand the cultural issues involved in the application of this technology. I was hoping to have a substantive discussion about the things that are necessary in the development of the culture of the listserv, and what sort's of issues I can expect to have surface. I'm quite confident in my ability to create a listserv with the sort of culture where the effects of this new technology can be discussed, but it couldn't hurt to have some discussion's with others about the pitfalls of listserv ownershp and management. >>>> >I haven't seen anything about the psychology of participation in a listserv. ><<< >As regards formal papers,not to mention books, so do I.As you might have spotted >in my response to Robert, I might tell you a few case stories on informal lea- >dership in lists from which we could work out setups for sociological experi- >ments within lists, if that's something you're after. > My life is a social experiment. On the other hand, Sherry Turkle (sp?) is something of a media celebrity based on "Life On The Screen" and as far as I know, she isn't a "deep" thinker in this area. I like to think that I have a pretty good grasp of what is involved, having spent over $10,000 in online charges in the last decade. >>>> >On the other hand, I have seen statements that this is to be self-help, >group therapy list, complete with people with a professional background in >Psychology and therapy. ><<< >It's to be a list counterpart of facilitated *self-exp* groups, *no* self-help >one. Its purpose is to let you *feel* modes of comm in cyberspace. > "Feel" modes of communication? I have a very specific mode of communication, I say what is on my mind. >>>> >[....]Given that most self-help groups are by nature >anonymous, and this list isn't ... Given that self-help isn't something that >can be done with a mixture of people that believe that they have >professional qualification's and are therefore more qualified than the other >members of the group, and given the backdrop of a game designed to plumb the >depths of conciousness, I have to wonder what sort of flame wars and >personal attacks are going to surface here. ><<< >If you stress the "self-*help* premise that much, chances are you could miss >some of the playful atmosphere here around... I'm not here for entertainment. I'm also not here for self-help. I'm here to get into the psychology of listserv groups.. (which by the private email's, other's are also). >Mind to tell me more about your concerns and experiences on flame( war)s? While I could write volumes about flame wars, and have even started more than my share, (ask Denise Caruso over at the New York Times..) I'm not going to get into that right now. There are already too many different thoughts going on in this message.. suffice it to say that flame wars happen and are typically a waste of time and effort. They typically happen between people that believe that they are doing some public "good". >Sounds to me as if you've formed already some hypotheses regarding their ori- >gin. If so, sharing them would be a step forward to rigorous setup of your to- >pic: Listserv Social psychology. Righteous Indignation seems to be the cause of the good ones, the bad ones are caused by ego and communcation problems. >BTW, while you're right in emphasizing (partial) anonymity of self-help groups/ >lists, professional facilitation isn't necessary for them. Some of the best-run >groups arose out of informal meetings of laypersons sharing a problem which came >together via an ad! It was only later on, that the group decided to have a pro >in the background for occasional counseling. > All of the best groups are about people getting together with shared interests. Otherwise they are just people "hanging out" and wasting time. My life is too short to simply "hang out". >>>> >Given the definition of this group, I think that I have to be lurker for a >while until I can get a feel what what is the real reason for this group. ><<< >Need there be a unique reason, fixed in advance ?? > Focus? Without focus, it degrades into noise. When it degrades into noise, it becomes a vehicle for personal agenda's, which by nature aren't the groups. >>>> >So far there doesn't seem to be a reason, but several, all that work at >cross-purposes with each other, and no participation in any discussion on >the psychology of participants of listserv groups... ><<< >For that point, I feel and share your disappointment. I consider your topic hot- >new. Not that new, but pretty hot. I've been doing involved in on-line groups for years and years, but only know are they something that the media is catching up to. > >>>> >I'll hang around a while longer and see if anyone actually starts to discuss >the psychology of listserv groups, but I'm not about to participate in a >free for all, non-anonymous, self-help, group therapy session with a mixture >of professional and amatuer therapists and no focused goals. I'm on the >verge of unsubscribing, since I'm not getting what I was looking for.. ><<< >Great you *voiced* your disappointment, instead of unsubbing silently; so we've >got a chance to learn from you. THANK you for this your msg. You'll have to thank my parents, they taught me that attitude. > >>>PS. This isn't intended to be flame bait. >Hope you feel understood by me. >You're welcome here - and perhaps we can establish a thread on your topic. > Thanks for the welcome, and I hope that we can establish a thread about the psychology of listserv's, complete with the cultural context.. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:40:44 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Kathy E. Gill" Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe.. As a *very* new list member (I found the list over the weekend), I wanted to say that I had some of the same pre-conceptions about this list as Wilbur ... that is, that the discussions would center around "the psychology of the list." =>I did not expect games ;-) I am interested in this subject because I believe this medium has such great potential to serve as a democratizing agent. On the other hand, if lists become cliques of people who think in lock-step, then that potential may vanish ... and its passing mean more division, less acceptance of differences. I know from personal experience that I *feel* as tho I know a few individuals well .... even tho I have only written back-and-forth with them over a period of time (days, weeks, months). A feeling of intimacy seems to escalate --- but is it real or smoke? I believe it is true that if we participate long enough, the "real" us will come out thru our words and deeds! But what about all those folks who lurk -- are they voyueaurs (?sp?) ... what needs are they fulfilling by *watching*? Enough ... FYI, I am a public affairs professional and part-time trainer, communications consultant, and webmaster ... living in the land of lattes (suburban Seattle). Kathy E. Gill _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:07:50 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Kathy E. Gill" Subject: Evolution of discussion lists (forward) Interesting (humorous) discussion of the evolution of discussion lists .... Kathy ----------------Begin forwarded message -------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 02:10:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Laugh Of The Day - Tue, Apr 02 1996 Sender: lotd-approval@world.std.com To: lotd@world.std.com ****************************************************************************** Be sure to visit LaughWEB (http://www.misty.com/laughweb/) ****************************************************************************** *File Description: The Natural Life Cycle Of a Mailing List* THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS Every list seems to go through the same cycle: 1. Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush alot about how wonderful it is to find kindred souls). 2. Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list, and brainstorm recruitment strategies). 3. Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up). 4. Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience; everyone -- newbie and expert alike -- feels comfortable asking questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions). 5. Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens to quit if *other* people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed). 6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic threads off the list). OR 6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks; many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list lives contentedly ever after). ****************************************************************************** LAUGH OF THE DAY - A service of LaughWEB (http://www.misty.com/laughweb/). To unsubscribe, send e-mail to majordomo@world.std.com, with text: unsubscribe lotd email_address Where "email_address" is the address you used when you subscribed to lotd. For more information about Laugh Of The Day or LaughWEB, send email to: joeshmoe@world.std.com with a SUBJECT header of: info laugh To subscribe to lotd, point your web browser to: http://world.std.com/~joeshmoe/laughweb/lotd_subscribe.html The URL of today's laugh: http://www.misty.com/laughweb/computer/the.natural.life.cycle.of.a.mailing. list ****************************************************************************** Warning - Material contained in this document might be considered offensive. Please read our disclaimer: http://www.misty.com/laughweb/laughweb.disclaimer.txt ****************************************************************************** ----------End forwarded message-------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:40:41 +1200 Reply-To: Gabrielle Kearney Sender: Psybernet Mailing List Comments: Gabrielle Kearney From: Gabrielle Kearney Organization: PlaNet (Auckland New Zealand) Subject: Re: Evolution of discussion lists (forward) In-Reply-To: This came through today so I pass it on to the dear cybersangha. gabrielle > THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS > > Every list seems to go through the same cycle: > > 1. Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush alot about > how wonderful it is to find kindred souls). > > 2. Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list, > and brainstorm recruitment strategies). > > 3. Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads > develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up). > > 4. Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of > information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as > well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease > each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience; > everyone -- newbie and expert alike -- feels comfortable asking > questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions). > > 5. Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases > dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people > start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens > to quit if *other* people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet > topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten > up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than > is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed). > > 6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks > an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies > are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor > issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are > limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time > self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic > threads off the list). > OR > > 6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants > stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks; > many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list > lives contentedly ever after). > > > ***************************************************************************** > LAUGH OF THE DAY - A service of LaughWEB (http://www.misty.com/laughweb/). > > To unsubscribe, send e-mail to majordomo@world.std.com, with text: > unsubscribe lotd email_address > Where "email_address" is the address you used when you subscribed to lotd. > > For more information about Laugh Of The Day or LaughWEB, send email to: > joeshmoe@world.std.com > with a SUBJECT header of: > info laugh _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 16:20:00 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Case studies and supervision [Was: Another Psyber-newbie] In-Reply-To: <9604020655.AA06942@sussun1.ffm.fgan.de> Mila, > As I told Robert today, on Friday I had some first exp in hearing your e-mail > voices - not quite whispering, but soothing and lulling me out of argumentation > composure. It was the first sudden relaxation exp since I underwent Rogers ther- > apy first. It's a pity you could not see me calm down instantly - that sudden I > wasn't able to e-mail a short notice of what was happening > Proposed goal: short codes for body exps. [Walter: entering the calm as if settling into a comfortable chair in a cosy room ] Mila: > Yet I see a face-to-face group! Ah! Just as I was entering into a more secluded space. > True, group dynamics appears in other vestiges than in F-F-comm. > Hopefully group members here have their own feet to stand on. > I could tell you on more or less subtle leadership in other lists. > (Case stories.) I am interested -- how do you (and others) feel about speaking of -- other -- lists here? (To some extent I have done that mentioning netdynam) I find it a tricky area. One of the reasons for advocating _experiential_ research, as in this list . . . is that right now all of us have had the information that we do that here, that this list is for learning as we go -- we subbed to a list with that stated aim. I have respect for the work of J. L. Moreno who advocated what he called sociometric research -- psychodrama groups are one form of such research -- as if we are all participant observers, in both those roles at the same time. He advocated maximum voluntary participation in the research. (I have references if anyone wants them) > Maybe we've got different internal models of psyberspace in general. > Mine is: Whose impact on me I sense, is counted to exist. Yes , the model may not be _that_ dissimilar -- for some software reason I (as list owner) literally see on my screen every sub and unsub to this group. And that has an impact. (Perhaps I should send them to the list -- anyway they have calmed down a little) > Lurkers are not. > I'm aware of the similarity of this model to academic publication race; > but -sorry- there's no semantics to silence. Now there is a topic! Semantics of Silence. > I'm after doing some Rogers-type counseling I learned during a > wild and beautiful therapy. I've had some success in F-F-counseling > as well as via letters. Online counseling I've yet to explore and to > train; but if having built a relationship, there are signs it might work, > too. Yes. > Perhaps I might go to the list for supervision? This is a good example in how I see the list as a jumping off point for other work. While a big public list like this is OK for some level of supervision, IMO a more focussed group or one to one contract would need to be developed. Supervision -- for those not familiar with the concept as used in psychotherapy and social work etc. -- is a relationship with another professional (or group) to look at the work we do with our clients. It is usually seen as primarily for the safety and interest of the clients. The development of the supervisee is of course also on the agenda -- "on the edge of training and therapy" never venturing too far in either direction. Of importance is the parallel process -- where the dynamic of the case work is repeated in the supervision, and then attended to in the here and now. This can be done in lists, I am sure. So there is the possibility of a supervision for net counsellors list, a peer list? -- by invitation? I see this as something for the future -- this psyber-l list has a way to go before I can tell what I would want to see happen in that area. > I'll take some leave for Easter, responding last to today's digest. Have a good Easter! We, in New Zealand are almost there -- being where the sun first rises each day. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 16:20:04 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Evolution of discussion lists (forward) In-Reply-To: Hi Kathy > THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS Welcome & Interesting . . . not only a laugh i'd say -- quite a helpful and accurate summary in my experience . . . is there anything that does not fit for others? I'd remove the cynical tone. walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 22:26:01 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: PLG: Waterbird wrap In-Reply-To: Stephen, Charles and all, > I am grateful to Charles for his bringing the game to this space and > playing with me and his forebearance. It has been quite a journey. I think the game was a grand piece in its own right. Angels and swords, Rilke and Hopkins, and the life of the sixties will always carry a bit of waterbird with them for me. What I learnt from it about on line lists is this: 1. It is possible to complete a cooperative task on a list! (It does not often happen!) 2. Structure and form when tight (yang) -- can assist in developing the softer and more feminine (yin). 3. There is a form here that, like lists themselves, is more suitable to the net than any other medium. This is has great potential as a psychological form . Thanks Charles for the inspiration -- look forward to where this might lead. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 07:17:57 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Reality? Dear Psyberians, A discussion in my staff lounge about internet and relationships found an echo here and on the list NYTDYNAM. The topic had to do with _reality_. No one disputes that when we are in a face-to-face (f2f) environment we are engaged with reality (multiple sensory evidence). Relationships in the f2f dimension are _real_ relationships. Questions pop into my mind, "what is real about the relationships? are they based on the visual sensory data or our thoughts about that data? are they based on the aural sensory data or our thoughts about that data? are they based on the auras projected (what defines these auras?) or on cognition? can we define _relationship_ using finite terms?" When one relates, one does so not with a body or a mind, but with the essence of that person which defies scientific understanding. Does the essence of a person exist only within the confines of _all_ the senses? Blind people, deaf people, all those deprived of their _full_ sensory complement are able to engage in relationship. Is it _touch_ then that is the critical factor which allows the germ of relationship to flower? Obviously (to me anyway), the essence of who we are is not bound within our bodies; and, in the opinion of many mystics, neither is it bound within our minds. Our essence exists. _WE_ exist, in f2f environments, in cyberspace, at the other end of a phone line, on the sending or receiving end of a letter; we exist wherever and whenever. Realationship exists if all we share is the exchange of glances over a moment or over years. Relationship exists between the living and the dead in the stories we pass on to our children and kin. Relationship exists within the context of teacher and learner. Relationship exists between blind and seeing. Etc., etc. Relationship exists here. This is real. The smiles you bring to my face or my mind are real. The confusion, the anger, the agreement, the pain and sorrow are real, the compassion is real. We question authenticity and duplicity in this environment. Do we not have to question these just as thoroughly in the f2f reality? Vicki talks about _posturing_ and _artifice_ online. Do we truly know anyone f2f? The psychology of a listserv ... relation ... communication ... perception ... negotiation ... validation ... . It's all here. This is real. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:17:43 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Reality? Greetings, I've just finished reading Ken Wilber's SEX, ECOLOGY, SPIRITUALITY, in which he points out, as other unfashionable thinkers have before him, that the conceit of sensory prehension's paramount status (in Euro-centric metaphysics,) is the rather convenient justification for the making, of the ego-person, into the captain of his/her 'ship'. (So: limitation follows conceit; where conceits have their 'edge', on the other side, the liminal beckons.) Meanwhile, as Wilber notes, we extensively interpret our experience be it f2f or otherwise without any evidence that the medium of mediation makes a whit of difference in terms of the nature of the experience of our 'unique' interpretation. IMO, So, Robert, I see eye to eye :-) and perhaps the heart(s) will follow? Stephen >Do we truly know anyone f2f? >The psychology of a listserv ... relation ... communication ... perception >... negotiation ... validation ... . It's all here. This is real. > >Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 14:32:10 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: From gas cloud to supernova and on Leadership Dear Walter and Psyberians Thank You for inspiring remarks. >THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS Reading description of formation and disappearance of a LIST the establish model of development and decay of planetary system came to my mind. From cloud of interstellar gas forming the planets and moons toward explosion of supernova devouring the planets and annihilating the system (in a more or less 20 000 000 000 years). From Psyberspace to Interplanetary Space and back. >Facilitation, Moderation, Editing, leadership, list-owning . . . >All the roles associated with running lists one way or another. >It seems that some form of leadership can t be avoided. Even in >the setting up of a list, dozens decisions about how the list >operates have to be made. These are not democratically made -- >they are up to the owner! Even the most lasais fair (sp?) owner >has an influence on the list -....... >How is the leadership combined with participation? Does one >contaminate the other? here for example I am both owner, and >facilitator (which is not the same as moderator in a technical >sense) I also am an avid participator -- seems OK to me , but I >want to discuss this and reflect on it more. >In another group I am owner -- but not in other leadership roles >(formally), I have found that more tricky, being perceived as a >leader when I am not. (Even by myself I must admit -- the title >of owner can easily go to ones head! ) >How do others handle these roles? Owner, leader, manager, facilitator, consultant, expert, particpant. In my experience it is possible to hold all those rolles in one person and one organization as long their are well defined and not performed simultaneously. The role has to be clearly defined and understod by player and organization and shift clearly punctuated and actual role declared. Democratic leader? Hm. Leader in a democratic system, yes. Otherwise we have dictatorship. But democratic leader seems to me not possible. Democratic manager - yes, following the decisions of majority (if that is his leaders decision and owners policy). By the way, Walter it seems to me that, list ( organization) is working without confusion- so where is dilemma?. Shift of subject. Walter> Congress I mentioned in my e-mail is the 1st Congress of the World Council for Psychotherapy in Vienna, 30 June - 4July. Psyberians> Will some of You participate? All the best Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 14:32:06 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: How real is real? Dear Sir Robert de Cyberie and Psyberians, Let me quote Poul Watzlawick from Foreword to his book "How real is real?": "This book is about the way in which communication creates what we call reality. At first glance this may seem a most peculiar statement, for surely reality is, what is, and communication is merely a way of expressing or explaining it. Not at all. As the book will show, our everyday, traditional ideas of reality are delusions which we spend substantial parts of our daily lives shoring up, even at the considerable risk of trying to force facts to fit our definition of reality instead of vice versa. And the most dangerous delusion af all is that there is only one reality. What there are, in fact, are many different versions of reality, some of which are contradictory, but all of which are the results of communication and not reflection of eternal, objective truths". With best regards Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:56:58 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Storm, I need to speak ... Merci, Stephen, I appreciate the message so soon after my posting. I found it fortunate to have both you and Walter here to share the experience. I'm silent on NETDYNAM due to my need to limit my interactions on listserv communities. Otherwise, I'd have little time for life on the dimension on the other side of the screen. SC>However, with so much intellectually up in the air there and here, the SC>feeling space and tone that has arisen in the aftermath of the suicide of SC>*community member* of Net_Dynamics suggests, to me, simply that deep SC>community is purchased at the sacrifice of the more narrow expectations SC>about a mailing list working toward definate concrete 'ends'. What does this suggest about the psychology of listserv's? Perhaps the notion of _defining_ and _limiting_ our interactions works counter to the survival of a listserv as a community. It almost seems that the end result would be a _bulletin board_ posted with facts and science ... and devoid of meaning. RL>>Loss seems to be as RL>>painful here on the 'net as it does in physical time and space ... maybe RL>>more so since we often put up fewer walls. > SC>Whether or not this is true, we do well to keep in mind as we play on this SC>stage that human beings made up of flesh and blood are doing the typing at SC>their end of the network. Well spoken! We are not disembodied beings. SC>And, that the soul we bring to our being here is the stuff of our SC>incarnation and it's becoming in a particular space and time, no matter how SC>we may choose to act out alternative persona(s), roles, and, experiment SC>with identity online. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:56:43 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Wilbur S.: I'm a lurker, ... Psyberians et Wilbur, I finally have a few moments with which to reply to Wilbur's original post and several of those which followed. I don't know where this is going, but I'm sure I'll enjoy the journey. WS>I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology WS>of Listserv groups.. Hm-mm-mn, good idea! Which aspects in particular? the psychology of relationships on a listserv group? the psychology of communication on a listserve group? the dynamics of community? the nature of CMC? WS>I haven't seen anything about the psychology of participation in a listserv. How do we have a psychology of listserv groups without a psychology of the participation, the patterns of participation, the nature of the participation? Could you help me to understand your informational needs/goals? I'm sure that the community of Psyber-l is open to a development of listserv psychology that you wish to investigate. WS>On the other hand, I have seen statements that this is to be self-help, WS>group therapy list, complete with people with a professional background in WS>Psychology and therapy. Given that most self-help groups are by nature WS>anonymous, and this list isn't ... I wonder at this Wilbur?! Don't we engage in modifying our sense of reality and in turn, ourselves when we engage in dialogue? We do help ourselves by breaking the silence. Any therapy that I'd consider to be potentially beneficial is dialogue-based. We engage in dialogue here - we engage in therapeutic dialogue - we engage in self-help ... and while doing so, we investigate the psychology of a listserv (which is really the investigation of those who engage in listserv activity). WS>I have to wonder what sort of flame wars and WS>personal attacks are going to surface here. Hopefully, none. But human nature will provide us with motive and opportunity. To avoid the potential for flame wars and personal attacks is to invite censorship and mediation. One can't avoid the perils of being human when taking on the citizenship of a listserv community. >I'll hang around a while longer and see if anyone actually starts to discuss >the psychology of listserv groups, but I'm not about to participate in a >free for all, non-anonymous, self-help, group therapy session with a mixture >of professional and amateur therapists and no focused goals. I think that all of our posts are goal-driven. We speak to each other from some need to express an idea, some understanding. As for being anonymous, I can be anonymous standing next to you for a thousand years. The face-to-face environment doesn't eliminate anonymity. Too many suicides from people living in crowds, with families, co-workers, etc. If one wants to be anonymous, that goal can easily be achieved. Does it matter if others can place a name to the anonymous man/woman? WS>I'm on the WS>verge of unsubscribing, since I'm not getting what I was looking for.. I look forward to a continued dialogue, but I'll respect your right to be silent, your right to leave. I acknowledge that thi post wasn't meant as a flame, that is was meant to _voice_ a concern. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:57:14 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Whispers? Salut my friends, Kathleen comments: KG>I am most intrigued by the lurkers. Every time I post to a list I cannot help KG>but read it through their eyes, imagining myself in a movie of sorts, my KG>letter being read by the crowd, but only being commented on by the KG>characters... Knowing that there are lurkers (check the numbers for the list and count the numbers of those engaged in dialogue), we speak to each other in dialogue while speaking in a monologue. It is a different kind of theatre. While on a stage, we speak _lines_. Dialogue is reflected to the audience off the character to whom the words are apparently directed. Here, there is real dialogue ... I / Thou ... yet, as you mention, there is also an audience, characters which may at anytime join the dialogue. Interesting opening. I know that I'll enjoy this dialogue! Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:55:34 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: From gas cloud to supernova and on Leadership In-Reply-To: <960404193210_100450.2321_BHG84-2@CompuServe.COM> Jurek, > >THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS > Reading description of formation and disappearance of a LIST the establish > model of development and decay of planetary system came to my mind. Ah! I like how you took that further -- the original humorous Cycle described something stereotypical -- your image takes it to the higher realms . . . as if there are laws here that we do not have much say over, ie there is a _natural_ tendency in lists. The image certainly puts any inflated notions of leadership at bey! > From Psyberspace to Interplanetary Space and back. Walter : > >How is the leadership combined with participation? Does one > >contaminate the other? here for example I am both owner, and > >facilitator (which is not the same as moderator in a technical > >sense) I also am an avid participator -- seems OK to me , but I > >want to discuss this and reflect on it more. Jurek: > Owner, leader, manager, facilitator, consultant, expert, participant. In my > experience it is possible to hold all those roles in one person and one > organization as long their are well defined and not performed simultaneously. > The role has to be clearly defined and understood by player and organization and > shift clearly punctuated and actual role declared. I recall seeing forum leaders (is that the term?) on Compuserv literally using punctuation to denote their status: :: thus. > By the way, Walter it seems to me that, list ( organization) is working without > confusion- > so where is dilemma?. You mean the technical computer side of it? Or the more personal and interactive dynamics of it? Of this list or generally? I have no dilemma, however I think there is a fuzzy line between my (and probably all) participation and facilitation. It is clearer than on a lot of lists where it is not declared that the owner is also in a facilitating role (that can be fine). I have not come across the term on lists. It happened here in the setting up in 93, in a collaborative process with Reg Smith a then active participant on the (now closed) Psybernet BBS. We did not like the term moderator, in New Zealand English it connotes a dampening down of everything -- the word is not used here at all to mean "Chairperson" (as in North America?). Nor did we envisage the sort of work a moderator does as right for this list. We decided to use the term facilitation. Of course many here have been doing that . . . welcoming, and attending to process, summarising, questioning. In so far as I am a participator I welcome the facilitation of others -- sometimes I might just want to go a bit crazy. Over the summer in New Zealand I was simply away for a long time. All the questions of authority, familiar to face-to-face groups can come up -- dependency -- counter-dependency . . . > Shift of subject. > Congress I mentioned in my e-mail is the 1st Congress of the World Council for > Psychotherapy in Vienna, 30 June - 4July. > Psyberians> Will some of You participate? Unfortunately I'll be here -- am toying with the idea of going to Italy for the Bion conference in 97, partly because I'd like to go to the alps to do some rock climbing, and see my son in London. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:07:54 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: How real is real? In-Reply-To: <960404193205_100450.2321_BHG84-1@CompuServe.COM> > What there are, in fact, are many different versions > of reality, some of which are contradictory, but all of which are the results of > communication and not reflection of eternal, objective truths". It just sruck me how perception is utterly different . . . Mila mentioned lurkers (no disparagement intended -- I am a proud list lurker at times) do not impact her at all. Quoting Robert who quotes Kathleen comments: KG>I am most intrigued by the lurkers. Every time I post to a list I cannot help KG>but read it through their eyes, It is a wonder we can communicate at all! And that the consensus reality seems as solid as it does. walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:20:00 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: On Buber dialogs Mila (and others), MK>Of course I'd like to turn to you intending to engage in a living mutual re- MK>lation. But how do I get in mind "you in your *present* and particular being" MK>given only impressions I've got days before - because of several time lags in- MK>herent in geography as well as technicalities of the distribution process? Given the absence of the full sensory data that one traditionally uses to get a sense of presence, one is indeed limited. However, limitations aside, this is a real person addressing you. The words I speak are reflections of the being that I am ... they can be nothing else. As much as I try, my words cannot mask their author MK>Addressing you I've to rely on what you wrote Exactly! And what I write is an offspring of who I am, a face of me so to speak. MK>I'm thrown back to your last words: RL>> It's time for me to send this off and prepare for my classes. MK>indicating - for me at least - you'll undergo some experiences far beyond my MK>being able to follow. MK>So you can't be, by whatever means, that Robert again, whom I met on Friday MK>and whom I have in mind responding. I exist in both dimensions, and others as well. One does not negate the other. Each plane offers us a moment an opportunity to discover some portion of our own beings, and allows others to know that aspect of ourselves. Perhaps our true identities is a sum of all these aspects (and more). The _Robert de Cyberie_ you talked with here on PSYBER-L, is waiting to speak with you once again. The _Robert Longpre'_ who teaches continues to develop and dialogue on a separate plane. The _BOB_ that has kept _Maureen_ company as mate for 25 years is also real. The stranger who says hello and acknowledges the separateness and uniqueness of another being, another authentic dialogue, is also real. MK>So my trying to talk/argue to you per se can't meet Buber's criteria of MK>authenticity. Why not? As long as I don't objectify you (or the others to whom I respectfully address my words) and you don't objectify me, we can indeed angage in authentic dialogue. MK>Let me put it thus: MK>Buber's criteria are too tight to be applicable for (even e-)letters, Doesn't Buber ascribe even the absence of words between beings who recognize each other's separateness as authentic dialogue (exchange of a glance while passing)? Our dialogue here is genuine, authentic in the fact that I don't see your words as dependent upon me for existence. They have you as author, an independent being, independent of my perception of you, independent of the need for me to say you exist. Mila, I hope that after your return from an Easter pause that we may continue this examination of dialogue, this relationship between "thou" and "i", the relationship between separate and multiple faces of the beings that we are, especially as it relates to this environment. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:20:10 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Don't call me a lurker! Hello Vicki (and others), VC>Please don't throw me in a bin with the lurkers! I've never wanted to be a VC>member of the chorus: I always wanted a speaking role, and a big one at VC>that. Heaven forbid! One never throws a Lady (I hope that this doesn't sound too chauvinistic - my natural tendency is to think in terms of chivalry and kindness). Please speak to me, to us, with you full _voice_. VC>Unlike many of you, I have no VC>formal training in psychology/therapy/social work. My background is in VC>writing and marketing, with serious interests in poetry, alternative health VC>and cooking. Another poet! Perhaps this will be an opportunity for us to dialogue about the poetic aspects of internet conversation. As my signature proclaims, I too am a poet. VC>However, since entering the world of the Internet (and what an incredible VC>world it is!) I have become more and more fascinated with relationships as VC>they evolve on-line Then, this seems to be exactly where you want to be. The psychology of a listserv is about the relationships of those who find themselves part of a listserv community. VC>Now I find VC>myself considering the nature of reality, particularly in relationships. I VC>wonder how the greater lack of prejudice on-line (can't see, can't hear, VC>can't pre-judge) influences relationships, both initially and long-term. VC>And how are we to discern between appropriate posturing on-line and VC>downright artifice? I hope that you have read some of my conversations (and those of several others) concerning these very questions, these past few days. We do not know, nor can we create, that which is not part of us. Perhaps the posing, posturing and artifice are not so far from the beings that we really are? Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:20:33 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Storm, I need to speak ... Walter, Thanks for your reply. You have affirmed much of what I have been feeling regarding this medium of communication. WL>Relationships are real. This is a place of soul. As a place of soul, it is the being behind the voice that is heard more than the words themselves. Can we not somehow sense the pulse of the speaker, the essence of the speaker? Or, are we captive of the words appearing on our screens, limited to them, by them? WL> -- and while I do not WL>understand the dynamics of that list -- something hits me: list WL>dynamics -- the soul in cyberspace (I would call it just as WL>easily) can be connected to the depths in the participants. I agree, we are connected at a depth that goes beyond the mere words, a depth perceived only as we plum those depths ourselves. Otherwise, there exists only the words ... potentially noise. Again, Walter, thanks for your concern and care. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:20:46 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe.. Bonjour Kathy, KG>As a *very* new list member (I found the list over the weekend), I wanted KG>to say that I had some of the same pre-conceptions about this list as KG>Wilbur ... that is, that the discussions would center around "the KG>psychology of the list." The psychology of a list (the psychology of those on the list) - it appears we may be headed in just that direction. KG>=>I did not expect games ;-) Dialogue, negotiation, re-statements: opening moves to a game of some kind I'm sure. As we investigate various themes using this medium, we are in effect investigating this medium. How does the medium enhance or detract from the dialogue of negotiation, of relation? What's the psychological implications of CMC? KG>I am interested in this subject because I believe this medium has such KG>great potential to serve as a democratizing agent. On the other hand, if KG>lists become cliques of people who think in lock-step, then that potential KG>may vanish ... and its passing mean more division, less acceptance of KG>differences. Voila! You have expressed well the need to keep the borders of a list open and unfettered. Moderating, censoring a list so that only prescribed topics and opinions are to be presented is to kill the dialogue before it has even begun. KG>I know from personal experience that I *feel* as tho I know a few KG>individuals well .... even tho I have only written back-and-forth with them KG>over a period of time (days, weeks, months). A feeling of intimacy seems to KG>escalate --- but is it real or smoke? It is _real_ for you if you accept it as such. That does not necessarily mean it is real for the _other_. The same is to be said for relationships in a f2f environment. One's perception of intimacy is always different from those with whom one is intimate. KG>I believe it is true that if we participate long enough, the "real" us KG>will come out thru our words and deeds! But what about all those folks who KG>lurk -- are they voyeurs ... what needs are they fulfilling by KG>*watching*? Perhaps it's not a matter of _time_. Perhaps, as Walter has mentionned, it is a matter of depth. As for the lurkers, they are part of every environment, every plane upon which we meet. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:20:20 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: a triple knot... Charles, I, for one, am looking forward to the promise of dream play. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:12:51 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe.. In-Reply-To: Bonjour Robert et Kathy, (Just trying out a bit of French, can one use it like that with two people? -- _Sir_ Robert someone said Ha! -- What is the French Canadian equivalent of a Knight? ) > KG> -- are they voyeurs ... what needs are they fulfilling by > KG>*watching*? Robert: > As for the lurkers, they are part of > every environment, every plane upon which we meet. Yes -- and watchers are different from voyeurs -- and different again from those who are listening and thinking before they speak -- which I think we have been doing quite well eh! Others might like to do more of . . . Again who knows! I know of several on the list who are really *here* but who don't quite join in -- I am like that in netdynam ( of late ). I was thinking of groups I have been in face-to-face -- often there is a lot happening, and then there may be some issue or conflict -- then quietly someone who has been watching and listening offers the "resolution" -- they were not caught in the dynamics in the same way . . . familiar? The word lurker is just so disrespectful for such a person . . . it sounds it to my ears at least. In the nettiquete files there is even the suggestion that one does this . . . read the posts and tune into the list -- I am glad we don't all do that -- but it fits with joining a new place -- and I am heartened as an oldie here that there has been and is respect for what is happening here . . . Some of it personal -- and that is fitting for this venture. Thanks Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:58:52 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Tama ! and what we are up to here . . . Tama and all in psyber-l, Tama, you wrote some posts to the list which I got forwarded from the old, now defunct address. Good to hear from you and on the phone as well! You may wish to repost -- as I explained. With the new discussions it is as if those more personal revelations we have shared here seem a long way and time ago -- somehow I do not want to loose that thread connecting to your open heart. I think it belongs here in this list. I have a fear that your openness (and mine?) -- may be seen as "off topic" or as too much "group therapy". I hope you hang in there with your style, I have no doubt you will! Obviously this is not a group therapy list, that is what it is about -- they are quite different in almost every way. Yet our explorations of the psyche in this medium -- which is more the our focus -- will include our wholeness and our multiplicity as people. Any list can be therapeutic, hopefully this is. To build the container, to ensure it can hold all of our explorations I suggest we do not restrain our writing -- but also consider how what emerges relates to the "prime directive" of the list. Some may simply want to question how it does -- challenge us see the practical learning. Some can make sense of our process while others simply 'do it". Supervision, therapy, collaborative writing, dream games and perhaps dozens of other things can be born from our connections here and move into private mail and other forms, even as we report on them here and learn from them. Any way Tama, I am hoping what I am saying will enrich our experience and our learning here. Walter PS Tama -- by the time you read this the holidays will be over . . . how was the bike trip? _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 23:29:55 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe.. voyeurs lurkers watchers ? I like to think of the silent "them" as the... chorus. Stephen \\\|/// \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) --------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo--------------- | | | Stephen Calhoun | | hoon@apk.net | | http://junior.apk.net/~hoon | | | ----------------------Oooo.--------------- .oooO ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 23:30:16 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Tama ! and what we are up to here . . . Parsing...re: "group therapy" Good wish revelations connecting heart may hope is explorations hopefully hold also emerges simply practical sense process do forms saying learning trip? And, as for group therapy, I'm a student of the school which suggests every breath has the potential to be therapeutic, the gaps between the breaths more so, and as for ideas, and thoughts, and artistic expressions of the natural soul...all... therapeutic too. ime Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 06:40:23 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: punctuation Dear Walter and Psyberians. I would like to clarify important distinction. Jurek: >> The role has to be clearly defined and understood by player and organization and >> shift clearly punctuated and actual role declared. Walter: >I recall seeing forum leaders (is that the term?) on Compuserv >literally using punctuation to denote their status: >:: thus. Walter, my punctation in this sentence is on SHIFT from one role to another. Are You refering to SYSOP'S (forum leaders)? One could ask: what is a function of denoting status for an particular leader. AND his organization? Thank You for connecting so quickly Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 06:40:21 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: list as structure within organization Jurek: >> By the way, Walter it seems to me that, list ( organization) is working without >> confusion- > >so where is dilemma?. Walter: >You mean the technical computer side of it? Or the more >personal and interactive dynamics of it? Of this list or >generally? Technical computer side can be considered as part of structure - one of elements which is creating platform here on witch we are meetting together. For me LIST, participanst - Psyberians, You Walter, the owner and facilitator, ideas, definitions, conversations are the structural parts of ORGANIZATION. Organization is how those bits, elements are put together -are relating and working. Personal and interactive dynamics is how this, ours organization - PsyberLIST is behaving. List is a part of structure and organization in the same time but in different perspective. All the best Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:46:58 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: participation and facilitation Walter, >II think there is a fuzzy line between >my (and probably all) participation and facilitation. I feel that it is trivia but my inner bookshelve tells me, that when You facilitate You participate, but when You participate You are not necessary facilitating. You participate when your presence is reconized (by server or others). You facilitate when You simplify and make thing easy FOR others. Perhaps difference between moving forward and moving toward. >Moderator moderator, moderatly =within bounds, within limits, within reason (MS Bookshelf 94). Yours Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 18:36:01 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls. > > Thanks for your reply. You have affirmed much of what I have been >feeling regarding this medium of communication. > >WL>Relationships are real. This is a place of soul. This is also the place of the pseudo-soul. Its the place of the *player* It's the place to show off a thinly-veiled ego. Relationships are also imagined fantasies. You see what you want to see, you can chuck your angst in the midst of a dozen or so other angsts and contemplate life the universe, poetry and suffer together. Empathising with each other's feelings, or minutely examining the depths of each other's navels. There's no greater feeling than thinking that at last you're truly understood. And of course it's so enjoyable to parade one's ego under the guise of humility or the Herculean tasks ahead. While at the same time of couse its also especially nice to have everyone agreeing with you... at least most of the time, hanging on your every word. A hell of an Ego trip. A sort of cyber version of Warholes famous for 15 mins..or was it 10? As a place of soul, it is the being behind the voice that is heard >more than the words themselves. Can we not somehow sense the pulse of the >speaker, the essence of the speaker? Or, are we captive of the words >appearing on our screens, limited to them, by them? Wake up and smell the coffee. What you think you see is almost never what you get. Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list. Nobody would ever be understood, and nobody would ever be bothered to listen. Do you speak like this in reality? I hope not. What's wrong with plain English? Is there some sense of insecurity that makes you want to parade your "intelligence" in a whole load of frilly terms - God spare us all from self-styled net poets. It takes 15 sentences to vomit out a sentence that only merits 3. Thats the problem with lists, you make them elitist and in the end only the elite remain. No growth just stagnant discussion and re discussion. Cut the bullshit in other words. Be what are, not you would like to be seen to be. Not what you think you are.. but what you are truly. Thats what makes a list alive, each mailing a piece of you. One you dont mind others seeing. >WL> -- and while I do not >WL>understand the dynamics of that list -- something hits me: list >WL>dynamics -- the soul in cyberspace (I would call it just as >WL>easily) can be connected to the depths in the participants. I agree, we are connected at a depth that goes beyond the mere >words, a depth perceived only as we plum those depths ourselves. Otherwise, >there exists only the words ... potentially noise. Noise might clear some of the cobwebs. I am making some. Will probably get me kicked off the list but what the hell. Get important topics discussed here.. why do people form relationships here? Why is netsex such a motivating force? How voluntary is the suspension of disbelief? What does your email signature say about you and the way you want to be perceived? Is irc of benefit to self-therapy, and why? Why is it radical in its effects on personal self -discovery?. Is a close irc relationship an adultery of the mind? Whats the process, the steps leading to a cyber-relationship? Thats the way to learn about the psychology of the list..and the psychology of its contributers. Laurel a.k.a Dolores but then I can be who I want and what I want here. I choose to be myself. Flame bait... I can handle it. Nothing much else to do over Easter except scoff a few eggs and mourn the absence of the one I love for two days. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:24:03 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Varieties of CyberPsych Lurkers and posters, flamers and extinguishers: The topic of the psychology of mailing lists is a fascinating one. As the joint-owner of a small list myself, I find myself very grateful to the handful of regular contributors who keep things going, a little scared that my own posts may overwhelm the list when the regulars are in a hiatus and I try to jump-start threads, and yet anxious to start things up again -- anything familiar here, Walter? -- despite my belief that a lull on the list may be as natural as a pause in conversation between old friends... It would seem that lists tend to have more lurkers than posters right across the board -- whether the list topic is ecclesiastical history or forensics -- and this raises such questions as: What makes a lurker unsubscribe? What triggers a lurker into becoming a poster? What makes a poster turn into a lurker? Do posters unsubscribe, and if so why? Why do I as a list owner hope lurkers will become posters, and not unsub themselves? These questions may have non-psychological answers in some cases (a poster may unsubscribe because s/he is going on vacation, etc), but the psychological possibilities are worth discussing, either on the basis of personal introspection, or from a more theoretical standpoint. Laurel raises some more intriguing questions: > why do people form relationships here? Why is netsex such a > motivating force? How voluntary is the suspension of disbelief? > What does your email signature say about you and the way you > want to be perceived? Is irc of benefit to self-therapy, and why? > Why is it radical in its effects on personal self -discovery?. Is a > close irc relationship an adultery of the mind? Whats the process, > the steps leading to a cyber-relationship? I have to admit that these are not -- with the exception of "How voluntary is the suspension of disbelief?" -- questions that I personally have much interest in, but I'm a list member, not some high panjandrum, and I can see that others might find them riveting: I hope those others *will* discuss them here, and I shall as usual try to attend as many threads as possible, and respond to those which most deeply concern me. Please note that I expect the same kind of consideration from others: you and you or you may not personally have much interest in much of what I write -- in the Games, for instance -- but you are list members, not high panjandra -- with the possible exception of Walter -- and you should be able to see that others may find my topics of interest worthwhile... * All of which brings me to the sense that there are two *main* concerns abroad on this list. One of them is represented by Walter's phrases in a recent list intro: > Topics include: > The art of leadership in communication networks. > Creating communication environments. It seems to me that this tendency on the list inquires into the "psychology of mailing lists" in a quite pragmatic manner -- as a psychologist might be involved in "test marketing" a product -- but that Walter has also and very specifically referred to "depth psychological work", which I take to mean the kinds of approach to psychology taken by Freud and Norman O Brown, Jung and Hillman... Walter signals what some of the topic here might be: > Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal > identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious. Special focus on > how these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace. These topics too are specifically invited by our gracious moderator. And if there is a *third* main concern here, it would be the wish for the list to offer an *entry way* into smaller groups, in which actual on-line therapy would be explored... * If I'm even roughly right in divining the presence of these three tendencies on list, it would again follow that those whose circumstances or tastes are more with one of these concerns than with the others should exhibit tolerance of those threads which concern them less. And isn't that also a part of the "psychology of mailing lists"? Lists are arenas in which a diversity of topics are discussed, and that simple fact can, from time to time, frustrate or infuriate us? Cordially, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone@earthlink.net "a virtual music of ideas" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:46:00 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: How real is real Dear Walter and Psyberians, >It is a wonder we can communicate at all! And that the consensus >reality seems as solid as it does. The human brain can not stop thinking. The humans can not not communicate. I just found following footnote remark in Ranulph Glanville article " A (Cybernetic) Musing: Communication 1". "Introduction: Considering Communication (1). (1) I would rather be able to assert, and have accepted, that meaning requires us to construct it, each of us individually, and meaning cannot, therefore, be communicated by transmission, nor can be encoded, for it seems so obvious. And that sharing of meaning is the central concern of communication. But I am afraid I cannot, for it is not all obvious to everyone." The map(our understanding of external world) is not a terrain (reality out there or "reality in parenthesis" as Maturana calls it). We can construct different maps in our minds and then we share them by interaction in language. That as far we can approach common reality in my view. Agreement that one map is the best one even if it helps us to reach a goal every time does not made it terrain. We can agree for shure that we are born and living in the same era and that we are humans with similar biological brain structure - the rest has to be negotiated. Best wishes Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 17:18:37 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls. Laurel, I am pleased that you sought fit to enter into dialogue: >This is also the place of the pseudo-soul. Its the place of the *player* >It's the place to show off a thinly-veiled ego. Why must one use veils? As you so rightly put it, this dimension is what we make of it (but then isn't all of reality the same?). >Relationships are also >imagined fantasies. Again, agreement. Perhaps this is why there are so many relationships in the f2f environment that fail to pass the test of prolonged f2f contact. >of course it's so enjoyable to parade one's ego under the guise of humility >or the Herculean tasks ahead. While at the same time of couse its also >especially nice to have everyone agreeing with you... at least most of the >time, hanging on your every word. A hell of an Ego trip. Do we not see our loved ones as heros? Do they not make us feel special? As for parading one's ego - mascara and lipstick are the first tools. >A sort of cyber >version of Warholes famous for 15 mins..or was it 10? Sorry, I'm not familiar with the allusion/reference. >Wake up and smell the coffee. What you think you see is almost never what >you get. Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list. Nobody >would ever be understood, and nobody would ever be bothered to listen. Do >you speak like this in reality? I hope not. What's wrong with plain English? Perhaps my misuse of your lovely language hurts your ears, but I do try to choose the words with care so as to evoke the right images. As for _plain English_, why should one be perpetualy reduced to speaking in _black and white_ when _colour_ could be used. >Is there some sense of insecurity that makes you want to parade your >"intelligence" in a whole load of frilly terms - God spare us all from >self-styled net poets. Perhaps, perhaps not. As for my intelligence, since I'm not a PhD (nor a candidate for such), since I pass my working life teaching verb conjugations to adolescents who would rather have conjugal relations, I welcome the opportunity to stretch a bit. Perhaps my poetry has offended (would you prefer to read my work <>? If my words give offense, please feel free to use the delete key. As a newbie to this list, I don't set the tone or the tenor of this list. If Walter feels that my posts are out of place, he has the right to remove me from the list. >Cut the bullshit in other words. Be what are, not you would like to be >seen to be. >Not what you think you are.. but what you are truly. Interesting. Since my adolescent years I have been trying to be me, to discover who that _me_ is. You have managed to discover that these words I use do not truly reflect aspects of me. I guess I must start the search over. >Noise might clear some of the cobwebs. I am making some. Will probably get >me kicked off the list but what the hell. I doubt that. Walter has been quite tolerant of my postings. I'm sure that your words from the heart will not cause such an eventuality. >Get important topics discussed >here.. why do people form relationships here? The same reason we search for relation in any other medium of contact ... to feel less alone, to feel that one's words are heard and perhaps even understood. >Why is netsex such a >motivating force? New one for me? As a person who is described as a _huggy/feely_ kind of guy, I need something more tangible than a phlourescent glow from a screen. >How voluntary is the suspension of disbelief? The art of meditation teaches about just a suspension. >Flame bait... I can handle it. Nothing much else to do over Easter except >scoff a few eggs and mourn the absence of the one I love for two days. I must admit that you have indeed caused a significant level of heat. The wax which holds my feathers onto my wings is melting and I begin to tumble to earth, a mortal once again. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 18:28:24 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: How real is real At 03:46 PM 4/5/96 EST, you wrote: >Dear Walter and Psyberians, > >>It is a wonder we can communicate at all! And that the consensus >>reality seems as solid as it does. > >The human brain can not stop thinking. Nonsense! Ever hear of Zen? >The humans can not not communicate. Once again, nonsense! >We can agree for shure that we are born and living in the same era and that we >are humans with similar biological brain structure - the rest has to be >negotiated. > I don't agree! Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 18:37:41 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Varieties of CyberPsych Charles, You are a list owner? What is your list about? >Please note that I expect the same kind of consideration from others: you >and you or you may not personally have much interest in much of what I >write -- in the Games, for instance -- but you are list members, not high >panjandra -- I think Laurel was speaking in terms of my _bullshit_. However, perhaps she/he (can one ever know on internet other than through the words of the speaker?) was spreading the flame around. >Walter signals what some of the topic here might be: > >> Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal >> identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious. Special focus on >> how these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace. > >These topics too are specifically invited by our gracious moderator. And topics which appeal to me (which me?). I hope that we do continue to address some of these. Although, I am willing to discuss other topics about CMC dynamics on listserv's. >If I'm even roughly right in divining the presence of these three >tendencies on list, it would again follow that those whose circumstances or >tastes are more with one of these concerns than with the others should >exhibit tolerance of those threads which concern them less. Yet, can we be tolerant of those who are not so tolerant so that we may be able to understand better the need to flame, the need to use straight jackets to circumscribe conversations to fit _agendas_? >And isn't that also a part of the "psychology of mailing lists"? > >Lists are arenas in which a diversity of topics are discussed, and that >simple fact can, from time to time, frustrate or infuriate us? Regardless of our reaction, it is important to note the presence of reaction, the presence of another being. With this interaction we are face-to-face with the psychology of a listserv. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 01:40:00 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls. At 17:18 05/04/96 -0600, you wrote: >Laurel, > I am pleased that you sought fit to enter into dialogue: Robert this was not a personal attack on you. Please do not think it was. The use of the word *your* was generic throughout. My apologies if you thought this was aimed at you specifically. >>This is also the place of the pseudo-soul. Its the place of the *player* >>It's the place to show off a thinly-veiled ego. > > Why must one use veils? As you so rightly put it, this dimension is >what we make of it (but then isn't all of reality the same?). We all too often make it more than we should and less than we ought to. You have to see the reality while accepting the fantasy. >>Relationships are also imagined fantasies. > > Again, agreement. Perhaps this is why there are so many >relationships in the f2f environment that fail to pass the test of prolonged >f2f contact. > >>of course it's so enjoyable to parade one's ego under the guise of humility >>or the Herculean tasks ahead. While at the same time of couse its also >>especially nice to have everyone agreeing with you... at least most of the >>time, hanging on your every word. A hell of an Ego trip. > > Do we not see our loved ones as heros? Do they not make us feel >special? As for parading one's ego - mascara and lipstick are the first tools. My heros have clay feet. And yes they make us feel special - because we want to feel special. Thats a basic human trait. That and the need to feel understood. I think codpieces came before mascara and lipstick. Is it any surprise that in fact its normally the male of many a species that is more conspicuous by its plumage? >>A sort of cyber >>version of Warholes famous for 15 mins..or was it 10? > > Sorry, I'm not familiar with the allusion/reference. Andy Warhol (I managed to spell it right this time) said that eventually everybody would be famous for 10 or 15 mins. He was I believe refering to television. He wasnt alive when the internet took off or he would probably have applied it here. Anyway I just like his soup cans. My point was that here everybody has a voice. Those who dare not speak in real life find their *moment of fame, of glory and attention. That is why mailing lists are so successful and so addictive. >>Wake up and smell the coffee. What you think you see is almost never what >>you get. Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list. Nobody >>would ever be understood, and nobody would ever be bothered to listen. Do >>you speak like this in reality? I hope not. What's wrong with plain English? > > Perhaps my misuse of your lovely language hurts your ears, but I do >try to choose the words with care so as to evoke the right images. As for >_plain English_, why should one be perpetualy reduced to speaking in _black >and white_ when _colour_ could be used. Again not a personal attack on you Robert. I adore language, I adore the metre, the rhyme, the way I can butcher it with my spelling. My gripe is with the over intellectualising and psycho-babble. I am not a psychiatrist, psychologist, psychotherapist, or any other form of counsellor, so your language is easier to understand with than most. Again it wasnt directed at you. >>Is there some sense of insecurity that makes you want to parade your >>"intelligence" in a whole load of frilly terms - God spare us all from >>self-styled net poets. > > Perhaps, perhaps not. As for my intelligence, since I'm not a PhD >(nor a candidate for such), since I pass my working life teaching verb >conjugations to adolescents who would rather have conjugal relations, I >welcome the opportunity to stretch a bit. Perhaps my poetry has offended >(would you prefer to read my work <>? >If my words give offense, please feel free to use the delete key. As a >newbie to this list, I don't set the tone or the tenor of this list. If >Walter feels that my posts are out of place, he has the right to remove me >from the list. I dont think your posts are out of place - I wasnt suggesting that at all. For a start its not my place to. Robert, a mon avis, le Francais est la plus belle langue de la monde. C'est la langue de romance, de l'histoire, de l'art et de la culture. Et si tu veux m'envoyer aucune de tes poemes, j'aimerais les lire. (amazing what you can do with a dictionary) There is no such thing as good or bad poetry when it is written for the self. Poetry should always be written from the self, to oneself. That is when it has meaning, when it comes from the soul. Course you could argue that Baudelaire wrote poetry of immense beauty just for its own sake - but it didnt have the ring of sincerity. >>Cut the bullshit in other words. Be what are, not you would like to be >>seen to be. >>Not what you think you are.. but what you are truly. > > Interesting. Since my adolescent years I have been trying to be me, >to discover who that _me_ is. You have managed to discover that these words >I use do not truly reflect aspects of me. I guess I must start the search over. Not aimed at you again Robert. I dont think anybody ever really finds out the truth of who they are. We change constantly. I am not what I was at 17 - Thank god. However it is something that made me what I am. >>Get important topics discussed >>here.. why do people form relationships here? > > The same reason we search for relation in any other medium of >contact ... to feel less alone, to feel that one's words are heard and >perhaps even understood. The danger is the fantasy element. And nobody will deny that cyberspace hurts. It hurts like hell. It hurts because its a betrayal of who we really are when we learn to trust and find out that the placement of that trust was all an illusion. >>Why is netsex such a >>motivating force? > > New one for me? As a person who is described as a _huggy/feely_ kind >of guy, I need something more tangible than a phlourescent glow from a screen. There are more aspects to netsex than meet the eye. This is where the media have netsexing wrong, when they focus on criticicising the horny net geeks. That is all they see. netsex is more than just a self perpetuating masturbatory fantasy. I think it can be the biggest form of self-therapy available in cyberspace - one area thats totaly neglected. That will probably bring the wrath of a dozen psych types down on my head. >>How voluntary is the suspension of disbelief? > > The art of meditation teaches about just a suspension. Hmm that word *meditation* seems to be cropping up alot in my life at the moment. Maybe I should find out more about it. I must admit that you have indeed caused a significant level of >heat. The wax which holds my feathers onto my wings is melting and I begin >to tumble to earth, a mortal once again. Robert, you dont need wax to support your wings. Dolores ______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 20:39:29 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Susan Z. Swan" Subject: on lurkers and unlurking Dear all--after some time simply "listening" to the conversation, I wanted to chime in. 1--On the Nature of Lurkers. It strikes me that while we've been discussing the core of relationships as grounded in authenticity and someone (sorry I don't recall who) suggested that it was especially important not to objectify others, that that is exactly what is being done re "lurkers." All of us folk sitting back listening have been tossed into the same kettle and talked about as objects out there rather than people in here. Isn't it legitimate to quietly participate in a conversation by listening (yes, really listening!)? Active listening is a true gift of authentication--and many "lurkers" might more rightly be called listeners. True, some may be voyeurs (although there doesn't seem to me to be anything racy enough here to warrant prurient (sp?) interests); some may be watchers (observers at more of a distance, sitting back more cooly); some may be chorus (although this strikes me as dangerous to assume given that it is all to easy to assume we chorus broader "reality" when we really reflect just our own little corner). Any broad categorization is objectification and assumes some more preferred status for posters. Reasons for listening versus posting may be quite varied--for myself, I've been listening intently, drawn by the conversation, fascinated by some threads, bored by some others (just like in FTF conversations), and delighting in the music of the symbols dancing across my screen. Up until Laurel's posting, I had felt warmly connected to the "list," even as a newbie--indeed had I not already sketched out notes on the nature of lurkers, I would likely not have posted. I see no reason for frontal attacks and see calling others people's contributions or their writing style "bullshit" as over the line. Civility and politeness seem to me to go much further in making a point and in building community than rudeness. 2--On the Nature of Poetry. What joy in the use of words to paint picture, to sketch images from one mind to another (or from one keyboard to other screens)!One thing that I've discovered is that, yes, some people do talk like our compatriates Robert, Mila, Walter, Stephen, etc. -- and what playful conversations can emerge! Some people do it to impress and these tend to come across as artificial and pompous. For others, it is the revelation of a soul with depth and poetry -- the exercise of a vocabulary of the well-read and well-thinking person. No, no, no! Please lets not boil down to essences--in the process, I fear, the essence will be lost. In fact, I think that this medium of the keyboard allows more of the essence to be found because we can form thoughts and find their links with other thought--and say more fully what we are trying to say because the conversation is asynchronous. Let's celebrate the clear and succinct for those who like to write that way--and the complexly beautiful for those who prefer another path, and take joy in the insight that each can bring to heart and soul and mind. Susan By way of brief introduction, I am Susan Swan, an assistant professor of Rhetoric and Communication at the University of South Dakota. My burning interests are with processes of transformation--individually, relationally, and socially. Lots of Jungian psychology gets intermingled in with my teaching and writing in conjunction with Zen Buddhist approaches and 2500 years of thought about rhetoric in the West. Life is by nature eclectic--so I follow suit. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:55:25 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Varieties of CyberPsych In-Reply-To: Robert de Cyberie and all, > I think Laurel was speaking in terms of my _bullshit_. However, > perhaps she/he (can one ever know on internet other than through the words > of the speaker?) was spreading the flame around. Laurel / Dolores has made it clear it was not personal to you. Well perhaps it was _my_ bullshit? I did not take it personally, but it made me think and feel. I have many layers-- we all do and some of them seem like bullshit to others. Perhaps we are at the _ego_ level of this groups development -- that aspect of us that comes to the fore in new situations. Jung's Aion -- a Phenomenology of the Self -- claims to follow nature of the unconscious and begins with chapters on Ego and Shadow. We seem to be following in that direction! > And topics which appeal to me (which me?). What were you thinking of? > Yet, can we be tolerant of those who are not so tolerant so that we > may be able to understand better the need to flame, the need to use straight > jackets to circumscribe conversations to fit _agendas_? Cyberspace is full of pain -- flames -- are natural here -- there are varieties of flames -- as well as earth, air and water. What would the psyche or a list that wishes to meet her be without all of these elements. I hope we have the guts to -- more than tolerate them -- welcome them. > >And isn't that also a part of the "psychology of mailing lists"? > > > >Lists are arenas in which a diversity of topics are discussed, and that > >simple fact can, from time to time, frustrate or infuriate us? > Regardless of our reaction, it is important to note the presence of > reaction, the presence of another being. With this interaction we are > face-to-face with the psychology of a listserv. Yes -- and what a thing it is then that you and Laurel speak of the possibility of being kicked off! That came as a surprise -- It feels as if neither of you are seriously thinking this is an option. And it isn't. It does happen though -- I was on a list where someone was banished -- what a business -- and then let back on! Walter Pulled between the garden which needs work on a wonderful autumn Easter Saturday -- and the thrill of the action reaction here. _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 01:08:57 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Black Sheep of Cyber Souls Laurel, The title fascinates me. It sounds almost like a chapter in a new book. If it was my book I'd change it to: The Black Sheep of Cyber Shoals. Yet, despite the feeling expression in the body of the message, your title speaks something else. It leaves me with a different impression. Black sheep. I understand that, but why does the title evoke images of lost souls for me? The word itself, Cyber, seems to conjure an image of a desolate space like a place of snowy exile in northern Siberia. Brrr . . . it's cold in here. Then too, I see the advertisement for the movie, Alien: "In space no one can hear you scream." I suppose the title of a message or a single line from the body speaks as loudly as the entire message does. Only we don't really hear the message. Now, that specific Waterbird game that Charles and Stephen introduced and created, it was an attempt to involve more than one sense or more than one way of utilizing a sense. I enjoyed seeing it transpire. Visions of the future. You mentioned Andy Warhol. I don't know much about contemporary or near-contemporary trends but wasn't Warhol part of what is termed the post-modern culture? My vision of the post-modern scene includes popular movies like Blade Runner, The Road Warrior, Until the End of the World, Brazil; Japanese animation such as Akira, and books such as William Gibson's Neuromancer. I see visions of the explosive technological growth following the white blast of Hiroshima. A vision of the marriage of cerebral matter with cyberspace. A vision of simultaneous degeneration and transformation leading to the beyond, a simultaneous falling into base matter and a transcendence. Connectivity arising out of warfare. Even with the growth of cold, unfeeling technology there is the underlying visceral need for passion, some that can only be expressed as ultraviolence. Feelings of anarchy evoked as a response to a real or perceived threat of tightened control. My associations to your title would have to be expressive of my own being but is there any leakage from a collective unconscious? >A sort of cyber version of Warholes famous for 15 mins.. Nice! I would like to add to that something William Blake wrote long ago and bring something of the past into the contemporary. "He whose face gives no light, shall never become a star." The recipe for fame includes a glint or shimmer of that vision thing. Add a small dash of madness or inspiration, perhaps? Baaaaa . . . It's hard to spot a different one when all appear the same. Sane. Rational. Reasonable. The world is full of these types of people. Or, have I got it backwards? >Be what are, not you would like to be seen to be. >Not what you think you are.. but what you are truly. That's tough isn't it? We can recreate ourselves in a different image. I think even the illusion is part of whom one is. The illusion might be ugly like hypocrisy or the split ends of frazzy hair. Do you choose to cut it out or leave it as it is? Always F2F with ourselves, part of our psyches reflected on the screen. >What's wrong with plain English? -snip- >Cut the bullshit in other words. The fact that one expends energy gathering certain thoughts, expressing certain feelings, that one spends time, . . . using a moment that will never truly exist again, . . . that is important. I have a question. Is righteous cynicism motivated by a desire for self-gratification? I know that pleasure and pain are two eternal angels that move me, eternal in the sense that if the chemicals exist then it is only a matter of time before something evolves that will utilize this chemistry. Contingent. The potentiality of matter will become self-evident given enough time. >There's no greater feeling than thinking that at last you're >truly understood. Must be why God created Man (or evolution of sentient beings out of Nature). There's something profoundly wrong with your statement. Smugness perhaps, but not the greatest feeling. It's a greater feeling to connect, to understand and to be understood, to enter onto common ground. We'll never see all of the same movies, read all of the same books, undergo all of the same experiences. Yet, we share our being here. One can see that as special or not. I know that a part of me is that part of the environment I interact with. Sometimes, my state of mind is influenced by what I read. Like the beginning of Kerouac's Desolation Angels or the flashbacks of his Doctor Sax. Musically . . . I think of Warhol's Velvet Underground. Indeed, state of mind. The difference between heaven and hell. "The identity of dreadfulness and bliss, these two faces on the same divine head, indeed this one single face, which just presents itself this way or that, according to our distance from it or the state of mind in which we perceive it . . ." (Rilke) For the more contemporary: See the movie, Jacob's Ladder. >Why is netsex such a motivating force? Don't know what netsex is. Do know that expression can be beautiful and/or sexy. Evokes feelings. Cerebral stimulation. There's Netsex, but what of Love? . . . that magical, golden moment when the line, that divides two distinct human beings, dissolves. Where is Love in cyberspace? A question I will ask the psychologists: "Can we reduce the psychology of a list to a chemical brew?" I have my own answer to this question but await others. >A hell of an Ego trip. A trip of an Ego hell. Naturally, I've rearranged your original message for my own means. Diabolical recreation. I had strange dreams last night. You want to know what's funny? After our bodies are dead and gone, these words will remain in an archive somewhere, fresh as the day they were written. Like vampires. Tortured souls. Why this need to spill my mind? John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 01:30:51 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: on lurkers and unlurking At 08:39 PM 4/5/96 -0600, you wrote: >Dear all--after some time simply "listening" to the conversation, I wanted to >chime in. > >1--On the Nature of Lurkers. It strikes me that while we've been discussing the >core of relationships as grounded in authenticity and someone (sorry I don't >recall who) suggested that it was especially important not to objectify others, >that that is exactly what is being done re "lurkers." All of us folk sitting >back listening have been tossed into the same kettle and talked about as >objects out there rather than people in here. Isn't it legitimate to quietly I have to agree with the point that calling people lurkers is indeed objectifying them. Quite perceptive, Susan. There aren't many people that realize that categorization of any number of people into a group is objectifying them. My mother figured that was the main cause of the World War II, and she grew up right in the middle of the worst of it.. (and no, she's not German or Jewish) She made very sure that I recognized that there were no bad "individuals" but when people were treated as a group, then the real atrocities occured. That "objectification" was at work in the persecution of the German population and their starvation. Hitler preached an "objectification" of the population to a Nation-state as a solution to their starvation. Then in turn the people of Jewish descent were "objectified" which brought on the Holocaust. >their writing style "bullshit" as over the line. Civility and politeness seem >to me to go much further in making a point and in building community than >rudeness. > Ah, but you wouldn't be an active part of the group without the affront! Groups need a villian and a common cause, it brings people together (strange breed that we are!). Community comes about by shared stuggle, not by being polite. I nominate Lauren in the role of demon to be overcome! >2--On the Nature of Poetry. Poetry isn't real, it's poetry. While there may be some echo of real sentiment there, and sometimes people like to search for feeling by writing poety.. Poetry is about images, it's about pictures and images, it's polite, but life rarely is. This list has little said and done from the "I" level. Much in the way of professional politeness, but little in the way of real human feelings. Much in the way of polite, intellectual, creative investigation, but little in the way of raw human emotion. (expect the thread on suicide.. but who knows why that person killed themselves?) I'm still looking for some discussion on the Psychology of Listserv groups... Where's the formula? Where's the diagram? Where are the working definitions? Where's the discussion of the roles being played with the gloves off? Often politeness is little more than hidden resentment, the politest societies are also the most rigid and violent. I'm getting to the point where I wonder if the entire mental health profession is so lost in their own minds that they don't understand the reality of life. This listserv microcosm is quite far from any of the listserv's that I've been a member of, but that doesn't change that no personal, introspective musings can possibly be considered any sort of investigation into the psychology of listserv groups.. On the other hand, this group seems to have the same players, they just play behind a different set of habits and terminology with professional ego's and less real information. Come on, I'm here to get into the psychology of listserv's not to wind thru the psychology of the other individuals here. You're all playing with the same emotions that we all are, you're just hiding them from yourselves and obfuscating them to the rest of us. OK, so I'm on a rant, but this is getting my goat! Where is the open discussion about the psychology of listserv's? Someone explain to me like a four year old where the discussion of the psychology of listserv's is happening? I've seen the mediator try to sort out his position, but that's an individual exercise rather than an observation about the nature of the listserv. There's been the discussion of "soul" like there is any doubt that we each have one. (but I have to wonder about some people's definition..) There's been the discussion of whether what is typed is real or not.. if the converstation's have meaning? If they don't, then why are you here? Tell you what, if you're not breathing a little faster after reading this, then this message isn't real, just ignore it, it'll go away.... On the other hand, if I've managed to create a basal response, don't correct my position, mention how offended you are, or politely inquire about a point in my message. Talk about the psychology of the listserv and what the human involvement in a listserv actually is! Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 03:10:32 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: How real is real? Wilbur and Psyberians, Wilbur: >I don't agree! And what can weDO with that? With respect Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 05:13:10 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. Dolores, Robert, Walter and Psyberians, >There is no such thing as good or bad poetry when it is written for the >self. Poetry should always be written from the self, to oneself. That is >when it has meaning, when it comes from the soul. I would like to put forward the metaphor of our INNER DIALOGUE with INNER VOICES. Writing poetry to one self - is it not as hearing the voice in one selv? Now, why constrain it to poetry? Are we not all full of the voices all the time? Voices of our parents, spouses, children, co-workers, leaders.... I had a lot conversation with You Walter and Robert before putting MY words on computers keyboard. When we are cleared in our minds then we let hear OUR voice externally. Playing the games in (real) world. Or replaying it (rehearsing?) in psychodrama therapy? Maybe the lurkers are more to inner dialog that to outer dialog? "Actually I only want to say that a language game is only possible if you trust something. (I did not say "Can trust something")"- Wittgenstein. Best regards Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 05:28:40 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: boiling down to essence Susan >Please lets not boil down to essences--in the process, I fear, the essence will be lost.. Let me quote: "The Essence of arithmetics we have learned through doing arithmetics" - Wittgenstein Thank You for taking me on flight with your words. Swan is very powerful symbol and metaphor in a country where H.C. Andersen was born. Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 05:35:36 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: sunny Easter Saturday >Walter >Pulled between the garden which needs work on a wonderful autumn >Easter Saturday -- and the thrill of the action reaction here. The same feeling here Walter, only we have a spring now (and we are in the only sunny spot in Europe for the moment). Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:53:07 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls. In-Reply-To: <199604051736.SAA21521@easynet.co.uk> Laurel, Your post -- its title and the themes, certainly have made an impact, on me, on others. Not polite as Susan called it. > This is also the place of the pseudo-soul. Its the place of the *player* > It's the place to show off a thinly-veiled ego. Ego trip, pseudo-soul, Herculean tasks . . . we do all this on this stage here . . . this is life, and there is heaps more, how come the attack? What is your part here? I suppose a bringing down to earth . . . yet (in a later post) I was impressed as you see that Robert's wing need no wax! > Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list. I like what you say about how we talk here! What makes you so angry though? It is this facility here to be somewhere between being in a novel and in our own journal, and chatting in a pub and doing a thesis on list psychology (we are Wilbur!) That is the thing about real life -- we can’t see the email. > No growth just stagnant discussion and re > discussion. Do you despair of this? I hate being caught in a repetitive cycle. This dialogue has some of that quality -- yet there is something fresh -- we seem highly _conscious_ in the midst of a group life theme. > Cut the bullshit in other words. Brings the question of what is _real_ right into the here & now. Think this is a moment of bullshit? I don't. Yet I do not have a sense of being with you as a person either . . . > Get important topics discussed Go for it -- and you are. It is possible to talk _about_ say, netsex, IRC, and what happens on other lists etc. sharing experiences here is of a different order, it involves developing trust, and also working within the holding place we make here. What do you think? It is utterly on topic to discuss all that you mention -- all to do with the psyche in cyberspace. > Laurel > > a.k.a Dolores but then I can be who I want and what I want here. I choose to > be myself. That is a topic! How do they get on Dolores and Laurel? And how do they relate to the person typing -- and does that matter? Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:59:57 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Cat amongst the cyberpigeons Well in order of appearence in my mailbox... Susan, you missed the point entirely. Prehaps I should have been clearer, though some people seemed to have understood. Maybe I was talking too plainly. Language is a beautiful thing. Language is life, it is the embodiement of emotion, it is the expression of the inner self. When I write I am myself. My true self, because I put part of me on the page, exposed, laid bare for all to see. To quote somebody on this list.." Writing activates the imagination, the psyche, the soul. Words like the eyes are windows into the soul. Text is a channel for intimacy because it is linked to the cunc (consciousness? Walter what was that word?) What I was trying to say is best illustrated thus.. Martin Luther King.. I have a dream Wouldnt quite sound the same when put.. I have a morphic vision of the ultimate paradigm while in a REM state Would it.. And why? Because it wouldnt have been understood by half the community to which it was addressed. Now nowhere in Walters dream, (Walters dream for this list is what attracted me here in the first place) did it say one had to be a psychiatrist, psychotherapist or anything else prefixed with psych. Having sat on the list for a couple of weeks it occured to me, that people werent showing themselves as much as showing their accademic prowess. Immensely irritating because I wasnt able to connect to half of the things they were saying. They were using the language of the psych academic. One I dont know. My point was that this is insular, it will not bring people, who though not professional trained, still have something relevant and worthwhile to say, to the list and keep them there. The list will stagnate in time. Secondly, it is the true self that shines in text, the difference between an accademic drawing of swords and a debate between two souls. Thats when we will all come to know each other, when we drop the bullshit and speak as we would. It was that to which I refered when I spoke of frills.. not Roberts writing. Robert I hope now understands that. His poetry in French is beautiful. It comes from the soul. From the place that is really Robert. " I see no reason for frontal attacks and see calling others people's contributions or their writing style "bullshit" as over the line. Civility and politeness seem to me to go much further in making a point and in building community than rudeness" I saw a reason. .Now why I should sit here and pretend to be something I am not, is not something I dont intend to do. Civility and politeness count for diddly actually, because they are not words that came from within me at the time. I wanted to rant and rave and I did. But I wasnt afraid of the consequences. Civility and politeness never make for good debate. Tea Time conversation is at times infinitly less preferable and has been illustrated wildly less productive than a good old fashioned slanging match. So Im not going to apologise for leaping wildly into the group of pigeons, or swans claws extended and with the intent to scatter them into the air..and to catch a few falling feathers. Dolores Btw In order to end speculation I am a she cat. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:12:21 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Steven B. Hoath" Subject: Reality, Sensation, and the Imagination Fellow Psybernetters--- The conversational thread on the question "what is reality?" strikes me as fundamental to this list. Does anyone have a simple answer? I don't. :-) I do, however, tend to agree with Robert de Cyberie who notes: > Relationship exists here. This is real. The smiles you bring to my >face or my mind are real. The confusion, the anger, the agreement, the pain >and sorrow are real, the compassion is real. Ok...this is real...but what about our sensory experience? What about the many people I've met online who claim that cyberrelationships are "pseudo"relationships? Their arguments generally involve the claim that lack of face-to-face contact invalidates or devalues the relationship...that a "true" relationship _requires_ f2f contact. Personally, I find many difficulties with this assessment...1) it overlooks the psychological and emotive power of cyberspace as a medium for communication, and 2) it finds the common denominator in real life (read, true) relationships at the level of physical contact. Surely, sensory experience is a necessity for establishing relationships in "reality"...but where does the evidence of the senses fit in cyberspace? Along these lines, what is the connection of the imagination to the senses? Enquiring minds want to know, Steve Hoath P.S. On occasion, I like flame wars...they generally reveal a great deal about the ego's of others. What's most interesting to me, however, is the question of what's feeding the flames? This requires vulnerability...bashing others or hiding behind academic posturing is easy compared to letting down the guard and looking at oneself in an open forum. **************************************************************************** This message made with 100% recycled electrons. This message made with 100% recycled electrons. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:20:26 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . . Dolores/Laurel >Language is a beautiful thing. Language is life, it is the embodiement of >emotion, it is the expression of the inner self. When I write I am myself. >My true self, because I put part of me on the page, exposed, laid bare >for all to see. Language is a lie and actions speak louder than words. Show me an authentic person and you'll see a silent one. But then, I don't always choose truth over beauty. John "Art is a lie that lets us see the truth." Pablo Picasso _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:25:17 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls. Dear Laurel and fellow Psyberians, Here in the Siberian like spaces of my home, the sun is shining and the temperature is a balmy -2 C. The whiteness of winter is beginning to evaporate into the colours of spring, a season of birth / rebirth. Using that as introduction, I want to note that this _list_ is also finding a moment of colour and showing signs of being reborn. Strange that Walter approaches this time and metaphor as fall/autumn. Walter, how do you understand the growth of community and dialogue here? >Robert this was not a personal attack on you. Please do not think it was. >The use of the word *your* was generic throughout. Laurel, a parry and thrust of the pen (keyboard?), a new mode of tilting at windmills, this is how I understand the dance of conflict. Since we are all blind here, stripped of most of our senses, we tend to distribute our anger, angst, applause, friendship, and even our love broadly. I realize that your words were not spoken to me specifically, but to a group of beings. >I think codpieces came before mascara and lipstick. >Is it any surprise that in fact its normally the male of many a species >that is more conspicuous by its plumage? Touche! Your words cause me to wonder about this medium. Do words now replace codpieces and mascara as plumage? >Andy Warhol (I managed to spell it right this time) said that eventually >everybody would be famous for 10 or 15 mins. He was I believe refering to >television. He wasnt alive when the internet took off or he would probably >have applied it here. Thank you for the clarification. >My point was that >here everybody has a voice. Those who dare not speak in real life find >their *moment of fame, of glory and attention. That is why mailing lists >are so successful and so addictive. This is definitely very much what we need to expand upon in the discussion of _list_ psychology. >Robert, a mon avis, le Francais est la plus belle langue de la monde. >C'est la langue de romance, de l'histoire, de l'art et de la culture. Et >si tu veux m'envoyer aucune de tes poemes, j'aimerais les lire. (amazing >what you can do with a dictionary) Quelle surprise! La Dame sait parler le francais. Ne soit pas si modeste. Tu le parles tres bien! Je t'enverrai ma poesie hors du ligne. >There is no such thing as good or bad poetry when it is written for the >self. Poetry should always be written from the self, to oneself. That is >when it has meaning, when it comes from the soul. I agree with you completely here, Laurel. Yet, the poet within does want to have the poem touch the core of another / others. Poems are also dialogic in that they have an audience. Can you not hear the poet speaking to YOU across the years and centuries, across distance and cultures? >The danger is the fantasy element. And nobody will deny that cyberspace >hurts. It hurts like hell. It hurts because its a betrayal of who we >really are when we learn to trust and find out that the placement of that >trust was all an illusion. We create the illusions, the fantasies. Since life in cyberia hurts (and feels good as well), this place must be real; we must be real in this place. We create our own pain and pleasure even in the f2f dimension. >There are more aspects to netsex than meet the eye. This is where the >media have netsexing wrong, when they focus on criticicising the horny net >geeks. That is all they see. netsex is more than just a self perpetuating >masturbatory fantasy. I think it can be the biggest form of self-therapy >available in cyberspace - one area thats totaly neglected. That will >probably bring the wrath of a dozen psych types down on my head. Self-therapy? Perhaps group therapy (we are a group here though we are *apparently* separated by time, distance and screens). This does indeed need to be considered, and this is a likely place in which to carry on that study (Walter?) Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:25:31 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: on lurkers and unlurking Susan and fellow Psyberians, Susan, I find your words express well the idea that Martin Buber gave voice to in his study of communication. On the Nature of Lurkers. It strikes me that while we've been discussing the core of relationships as grounded in authenticity and someone (sorry I don't recall who) suggested that it was especially important not to objectify others, that that is exactly what is being done re: "lurkers." All of us folk sitting back listening have been tossed into the same kettle and talked about as objects out there rather than people in here. Isn't it legitimate to quietly participate in a conversation by listening (yes, really listening!)? Very much so, a listserv is composed of the listeners as well as the vocalizers (as are most group interactions - my classroom for example. Sometimes I wonder what I have to do to get the silent to speak). As within a classroom, one knows that those who are silent are *present*, they are engaged with those speaking as they learn. Those speaking are aware of (and speak accordingly) those who withhold their voice. That this forum should expect different would be to expect us to leave our basic human natures out of the interaction. >Up until Laurel's posting, I had felt warmly >connected to the "list," even as a newbie--indeed had I not already >sketched out notes on the nature of lurkers, I would likely not have >posted. For this, I give Laurel thanks. She has accomplished much in drawing you into the "voiced" part of our community. >One thing that I've discovered is that, yes, some people do talk like >our compatriates Robert, Mila, Walter, Stephen, etc. -- and what playful >conversations can emerge! You honour me madame, with inclusion. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:25:41 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: The Black Sheep of Cyber Souls John, >The title fascinates me. And its author fascinates me. I try to make connections just beyond the words, to the speaker of those words. >Black sheep. I understand that, but why does the title evoke images of lost souls for me? The word itself, Cyber, seems to conjure an image of a >desolate space like a place of snowy exile in northern Siberia. > >Brrr . . . it's cold in here. Hmm-mm-mn? Empty space, lack of light and the warmth of human love. Sorry, I don't see this place that way. People live and work and thrive in Siberia and in Cyberia. And as Laurel so correctly noted, people love here as well. Our images have their roots in our understandings and our personal realities. >Even with the growth of cold, unfeeling technology there is the >underlying visceral need for passion, some that can only be expressed as >ultraviolence. Why violence? Why don't we take this medium as our ONLY venue for meeting and talking and listening without the need to be violent? Yet I know you are right. Humans are violent. Humans are the citizens of this realm as well. >There's something profoundly wrong with your statement. Smugness perhaps, >but not the greatest feeling. It's a greater feeling to connect, to >understand and to be understood, to enter onto common ground. Where is the wrongness? in the words of the speaker? If we speak what we feel, there is no wrongness. My friend (may I call you that?), to label right/wrong is to limit discourse and thought and understanding to a finite, definable, limitable status. By so defining, we lose much of who we are. >Why this need to spill my mind? Well spilt, John! I trust that you'll be engaging in some more *spilling* of your mind in the future. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:25:49 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: on lurkers and unlurking Wilbur, I enjoyed your comments regarding Susan's discussion of *lurkers*. I, too, don't enjoy the word. Your analogy is excellent! WS>I nominate Lauren in the role of demon to be overcome! Sounds like 1984 to me. I don't see any demons. Why do we need to create a demon in order to *rally the troops*? Listen to the words and their echos within. The demons are found within ourselves (shadows?). WS>Poetry isn't real, it's poetry. While there may be some echo of real WS>sentiment there, and sometimes people like to search for feeling by WS>writing poety.. Poetry is about images, it's about pictures and images, WS>it's polite, but life rarely is. Niether is painting real, nor a bridge, nor a pyramid. Polite? I think not all ppoems are about *daffodils*. Sir, you have besmirched my honour as a poet and that calls for a duel. The weapons of choice - a keyboard or a mouse. WS>I'm still looking for some discussion on the Psychology of Listserv WS>groups... Where's the formula? Where's the diagram? Where are the WS>working definitions? Diagram? Formula? Definitions? I thought we were discussing the psychology of listserv's? Are you suggesting that we must follow a manual of some sort to be having this discussion? Sorry, but the text hasn't been published yet. We'll have to make it up as we go (don't you just hate this experiential learning?). >I'm getting to the point where I wonder if the entire mental health >profession is so lost in their own minds that they don't understand the >reality of life. Sound like you've dropped your gloves. Help! Au secours! Walter! WS>Come on, I'm here to get into the psychology of WS>listserv's not to wind thru the psychology of the other individuals WS>here. You're all playing with the same emotions that we all are, you're WS>just hiding them from yourselves and obfuscating them to the rest of us. A listserv doesn't have a psychology, the people within do. What we need to explore here is ourselves in relation to the medium, the forum. What is different? how are we different? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:55:22 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Cat On a hot tin truth. . . Dear John, and anybody else who can be bothered not to hit the delete key, First a quick word to Walter.. Demon moi? Not last time I checked for horns and a tail. - Besides I was in church a couple of years ago, and I dont recall being repelled at the door by an army of priests toting crucifixes and showering me with holy water, chanting "Get thee behind me, Dolores" in immaculate Latin. First Lesson in demonology - The worse sort of Devil is the one that wears a fair face. >>Language is a beautiful thing. Language is life, it is the embodiement of >>emotion, it is the expression of the inner self. When I write I am myself. > >My true self, because I put part of me on the page, exposed, laid bare >for >all to see. > >Language is a lie and actions speak louder than words. Show me an authentic >person and you'll see a silent one. But then, I don't always choose truth >over beauty. Isnt truth an essential of beauty? The most beautiful words are those spoken with absoloute truth. I love you, being the most beautiful of them all when spoken that way - of course I love you when spoken with untruth.. has to be the greatest lie of all. Language a lie? Nah. its a means to lie. " What tape?" Richard Nixon Language, is a means to express that which is internal externally (amongst other things of course). -but then only If we let it. Its a means of expression sought by our *inner voice* Why do people keep diaries? A diary never lies to the person writing it. In my humble opinion..Speech is a means to express what we actively *want* to convey. We tend to use it differently - speech is far more liable to contain a plausible and deliberate lie, and yet stll ring true. Insincerity in writing is far easier to spot - perhaps we have a little more time to reflect. Speech does not come from within in the same way. When it does these are the people to whom we listen most closely. Think of the great orators of the world, who speak from within. You know when their words have truth..because they have feeling, because they very often send a shiver down your spine. You pick up the feeling and the truth. Course Hitler rather blows that theory, he was a great orator, and just goes to illustrate the point how we can be fooled by the emotion of anothers truth. Who is Jimmy Swaggert? The point is that you can be easily carried away by the emotion within anothers speech, because its immediate, thats why its easy to plausibly lie in speech. Immediacy means our suspension of disbelief is far more automatic. When something's *not* immediate we are far more likely to examine its sincerity. This is the major difference between discussion on the IRC (inter relay chat for those that dont do it) and a mailing list. We cannot lie about who we really are. We can only try to conceal it from ourselves and others. Eventually we get found out. Worse still is when we find we have been lying to ourselves. I have a friend who is a writer.. he says that every time he writes he dies a little, because he leaves a bit of himself on the page. He doesnt say that about when he speaks. Actually to tell the truth on the outside when you first meet him he can come across as a bit of an asshole. But when he writes, and you know him for what he is..you realise that thats because he makes himself so vulnerable when he does write. We can see who he really is so he puts up a different face to the outside world. But he cant hide the truth as to who he really is. Its there in black and white. Dolores Who is going to take a brief respite from cluttering up the list. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:54:08 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cat On a hot tin truth. . . Psyber folks, >Isnt truth an essential of beauty? Laurel, I'm not sure I'm up to a discussion of what beauty is. I know that a lie, the illusion of reality, can be beautiful and to me even horror can be of sublime beauty. That is my quirk. Some people see beautiful truth (as opposed to the ugly truth as in bills ) in numbers. But something is lost when everything is reduced to numbers. I think the human element is what determines what is beautiful regardless of an ultimate truth. >The most beautiful words are those spoken >with absoloute truth. Anytime I see absolutes in a sentence then I see it as suspect, mine included. >I love you, being the most beautiful of them all when >spoken that way - of course I love you when spoken with >untruth.. has to be the greatest lie of all. I know when I experience love. Simple words don't change much. "I love you" and "I'm sorry." These words are repeated every minute of every day but the mistakes leading to them are enacted by couples over and over again. Nothing ever really changes. >Language a lie? Nah. its a means to lie. Yes, but language can never fully capture the essence of an experience. It may come close as in the general supposition that French is the language of lovers. Lovers are also liars. >Language, is a means to express that which is internal >externally (amongst other things of course). -but then only If >we let it. Its a means of expression sought by our *inner >voice* Language expresses some need or desire. "I write these words to purge the demons. The ancients understood this madness." - - my words Language is a binding and it is a creating. "And who shall bind the infinite with an eternal band?" - - William Blake >Why do people keep diaries? A diary never lies to the person >writing it. Some try to cover their asses with it. >Think of the great orators of the world, who speak from >within. You know when their words have truth..because >they have feeling, because they very often send a shiver down >your spine. You pick up the feeling and the truth. Course >Hitler rather blows that theory, he was a great orator, and >just goes to illustrate the point how we can be fooled by the >emotion of anothers truth. I would have thought just the opposite. That the great orator is a vessel that holds the water of the collective unconscious and at times this vessel provides springs of flowing water to the masses. I always thought that the hero loses himself in the collectivity. And, the hero "stands close to Jesus 'n' Satan, they're both the same". Do we ever have false emotions? How does an actor find his true self? >Immediacy means our suspension of disbelief is far more >automatic. The hypnotist and magician is a master of holding an illusion. Words are a vehicle to that realization. Former U.S. president, Ronald Reagan was called a master orator (also called the Teflon president). He scored a huge coup with his speech after the Challenger disaster. Bush had his 'thousand points of light'. Clinton . . . ? I wonder though, haven't we had enough of politicians of hollow words? Let's take back our legitimate right to govern ourselves. More rhetoric? >We can see who he really is so he puts up a different >face to the outside world. But he cant hide the truth as to who >he really is. Its there in black and white. Truth can be beautiful or ugly. Truth can maim. It can kill. I try to make the difficult decision between truth and illusion, sometimes I choose the illusion. Freedom is a higher ideal for me than black-and-white truth. The exercise of possibilities has more power than that restriction to: "Thou shalt not". Tomorrow you may catch me singing a different tune. >The worse sort of Devil is the one that wears a fair face. "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy taborets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created." "Thou art the anointed cherub that coverth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Ezekiel 28:13-15 >Who is going to take a brief respite from cluttering up the >list. When you return . . . John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:54:13 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Black Sheep of Cyber Souls Robert, I said to Laurel: >>There's something profoundly wrong with your statement. >>Smugness perhaps, but not the greatest feeling. It's a >>greater feeling to connect, to understand and to be >>understood, to enter onto common ground. You replied: > Where is the wrongness? in the words of the speaker? If >we speak what we feel, there is no wrongness. Yes, but am I wrong? Let me restate. "There's something profoundly wrong with your statement, as I see it." I am not specifically using wrong to mean that what was said was patently false. The meaning of the statement comes through a guise. Cool sarcasm. Facetiousness. Is it only the reader? Hints of a tone in a message can come through if we're sensitive enough. If we're too sensitive, the space ignites because the inner voice is not always right. I understand Laurel's reference to the pleasure of being understood. But, real understanding would have to be mutual communication, as I have seen, having been in the teaching situation myself. I am talking about understanding as relating. I make a distinction from the understanding characteristic of assimilating math formulas, for instance. That type of understanding is largely for the talking heads. >Empty space, lack of light and the warmth of human love. >Sorry, I don't see this place that way. People live and work >and thrive in Siberia and in Cyberia. And as Laurel so >correctly noted, people love here as well. Our images have >their roots in our understandings and our personal realities. I once knew an Iranian who told me that even though their women were covered from head to feet, he could tell if the woman was very beautiful by getting a glimpse of her ankle. I can see beauty here and truth. I'm not so sure about the depth of connectivity. Connection is not really connection. Social intercourse. Sure. >My friend (may I call you that?), to label right/wrong is to >limit discourse and thought and understanding to a finite, >definable, limitable status. By so defining, we lose much of >who we are. We lose a lot when we put words to screen. What words can I use to express my meaning? I think the critical element has to be here in this space because it enhances our awareness. In that sense our understanding is increased. So, we gain something. One's goal is important. That critical element has to be ultimately constructive and not solely destructive. >Why violence? Why don't we take this medium as our ONLY >venue for meeting and talking and listening without the need >to be violent? Yet I know you are right. Humans are violent. Let me emphasize passion and not limit ourselves to its violent aspect. Sometimes, I enjoy immensely the rush of that energy of passion. I am alive. > Well spilt, John! I trust that you'll be engaging in some >more *spilling* of your mind in the future. I'm not going to cry about it. John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:14:17 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Susan Z. Swan" Subject: on civility and on language Dolores/Laurel and other cyberians: Whether on a list or in FTF, it is not, IMO, acceptable to rant and rave just because one wants to do so. I may want to hit my 8 yr. old who just trashed the kitchen, but that is neither legitimate nor especially useful in teaching her ood skills in conflict management. I do not agree that good debate requires verbal aggression--and indeed there is a fair amount of current academic research that suggests that argumentativeness and verbal aggression are separate and that while the first is potentially positive intellectually and relationally the latter is not. I also do not agree that politeness and civility breeds what might be called only "teatime conversation." Continuing the connection with Buber, an I-Thou relationship includes assertion, but it does not include aggression towardthe other. Defensive-creating behavior breeds only other defensive behavior, unless the recipient is skilled enough to consciously choose supportive behavior (wich I must compliment Robert on doing beautifully) and thus interrupt the defensive cycle. Martin Luther King's dream is appropriate here in more than just eloquence--he argued assertively for non-violence as the only just tool to overcome oppression; it was a militant non-violence, but he was strongly opposed to bashing as a means to much of anything worthwhile(whether that bashing was verbal or physical). In terms of the thread on language, it is unlikely that I "missed the point entirely"--we are dealing with a continuum rather than absolutes. In academic cultures, language does come to be used in specialized ways so that the concepts can be identified and, yes, even called into reality. This is true in any other type of culture as well. The language gives us ways of thinking about and then talking about things more easily. Like any other culture, including that of internet lists, socialization into the culture includes developing new vocabularies. The rarest, and typically most prized, individuals (unless their role is seen as subversive to whatever establishment there is) are the "liaisons" who can take the talk of one culture and make it accessible to another. There are some sitting in this conversation (around the kitchen table, in my mental image) who do this well and others who are more "within" the jargon; I find I may be confused at times because I certainly don't know all the words and references --and bless those souls who help me to come to appreciate the beauty of the specialized as well as general language being used. It seems that the learning-curve to understand the new culture via its specialized language can be quicker on a net-discussion than in face to face because of the diversity of voices and access to more interpreters. Does the net interaction because of its immediacy of delivery lead sometimes to the expectation of instant understanding? Perhaps that is part of the same approach that leads to channel surfing on the television? (Wilbur, I think this has wandered over to your thread--how much patience is there for "coming to know" via the Internet? I grew up with books rather than keypads, and am not much of a television watcher, and bring an expectation of time required for figuring out a new venue or coming into a coversation. Would this be different for someone who grew up with a more technologically mediated background? Or for someone who spends lots of time on the net in conversation? What does this mean for "marketing" a list? Must attention and understanding be immediate lest someone simply unsubscribe or lest a project have funding cut for not having enough hits on a web-page? What implications might this have for a list facilitator? Walter--do you take it personally when someone unsubscribes or see that as part of the wandering in and out of this medium? There are lots of questions about the psychology of building this new culture--and how then to guide future architecture? oh, well-I've wandered and must go dye Easter eggs with the aforementioned 8 yr old. Thanks for listening. Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:45:52 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Vicki Colker Subject: Re: Don't call me a lurker! Comments: To: longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Dear Robert and dear list members, all of you: Thank you, Robert, for your gallantry: I appreciate your invitation to let my "full voice" be heard. > > Then, this seems to be exactly where you want to be. The psychology >of a listserv is about the relationships of those who find themselves part >of a listserv community. > Indeed: and with this as its stated purpose, you are correct sir, Psyberia is exactly where I wish to be (well, not exclusively . . .) I know you've all read my original concern, but let me restate it again, even after reading various discussions: How are we to discern between appropriate posturing on-line and downright artifice? Your response, Robert, certainly contained truths. You wrote, "We do not know, nor can we create, that which is not part of us. Perhaps the posing, posturing and artifice are not so far from the beings that we really are?" Perhaps yes, there is a bit of a scholar in each person who poses as an intellectual online. Certainly there is a bit of the suave debonair gentleman in the lonely, gangly young man who professes to look like JFK, Jr. In the situation of a man who pretends to be a woman online, we can rationalize that we all have both feminine and masculine energies within us, I suppose. But, let's talk practically here for a moment. In your life, in your interactions online, if you (not just you, Robert, but all of you, list members) were to begin a relationship with someone who eventually is revealed as a completely different character than they "played," how would you respond? We are not discussing roles in an established online game of any sort. I am speaking of social interaction, with the only difference being that it is online rather than face to face. Would you be so generous, so open-minded if you discovered that your new pal had been impersonating a vastly different personage --morals, ethics, beliefs, appearance, sexuality, behavior totally inconsistent with whom they purported to be? I think not. Vicki Authentic, always _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:56:59 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Vicki Colker Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls. Laurel (and other list members), You wrote, >> Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list. Yes, I have noticed that on this list particularly. But not on all. In fact, not on most. And I am the same onlist, off list. Also, about mascara and lipstick, mentioned as ego-building devices: I don't care what you call 'em. I think mascara and the wonderbra are a couple of humankind's great inventions. So there. Vicki _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:37:38 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: To bend to and bounce In-Reply-To: Robert , > Strange that Walter > approaches this time and metaphor as fall/autumn. Walter, how do you > understand the growth of community and dialogue here? Wasn't a metaphor (as far as I know :-) -- it is fall here (in New Zealand) though we never use that word -- autumn. For the list: rebirth is uncannily fitting for what is happening on the list! Spring. The question of growth of community. Is community a suitable metaphor? Perhaps, "family" goes too far and community is in that direction IMO, it can lead to expectations that can’t be fulfilled, and go beyond our purpose. We are here to do some specific explorations -- Charles summed them up well I thought -- three threads. In that work we find closeness and friendship -- as explorers do. You have said you want a home in cyberspace and a community? -- I think that can happen / be built / found / discovered, and a list like this is part of it. Developing professional collaboration in cyberspace, and building a network around that -- to quote from the list description: >>> The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which includes psychological professional services on the net such as one-to-one Personal Exploration and professionally facilitated email groups. The list is also a place for professional collaboration in the development of ethical depth work of this nature. <<< Can community happen here? Is that a part of this work? Is it necessary? What are the problems? I should write a separate paper on this -- or maybe I could put our older discussions into a "Zine". > Self-therapy? Perhaps group therapy (we are a group here though we > are *apparently* separated by time, distance and screens). This does indeed > need to be considered, and this is a likely place in which to carry on that > study (Walter?) Therapy and community. I have a sense of the work we do here as both broad and focussed. Very like supervision of psychotherapists. The focus is the welfare of the client -- but the work covers "what is on top" and then leads to the supervisee doing more therapy or training (in other contexts). This list is a jumping off place for much more -- to be a good spring (!) board it needs to be able to bend to and bounce. and also be firmly attached to its focus -- in the list description. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:44:39 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: To bend and to bounce In-Reply-To: <3167a319.91071424@vesta.chch.planet.co.nz> > This list is a jumping off place for much more -- > to be a good spring (!) board it needs to be able to bend to and > bounce. and also be firmly attached to its focus -- in the list > description. Got a bit muddled . . . to bend and to bounce w _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:54:41 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Don't call me a lurker! >Would you be so >generous, so open-minded if you discovered that your new pal had been >impersonating a vastly different personage --morals, ethics, beliefs, >appearance, sexuality, behavior totally inconsistent with whom they >purported to be? > >I think not. > >Vicki >Authentic, always My experience: by the time I've unpacked my projections, be it here or f2f, and then gotten into the open perceptual/interpretive space between the unpacked projection(s) and the next round of projections, the person upon whom I've been projecting does seem totally inconsistent with the person I purported them to be. Of course, this is just my experience. Stephen. A thin bright reed song, if it should fade, we fade. --RUMI pbuh _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 21:43:06 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "sfuze@tiac.net" Subject: Re: Don't call me a lurker! In-Reply-To: Hi... I never formally introduced myself (I will when I get a chance), but I felt compelled to respond to your post -- While I certainly believe most people DO experiment and change their personas to fit the world of the baud, I don't know of too many people who could truly pull off a switch in morals/ethics/beliefs -- too many people are too egotistical on their stances to too many things -- ie, you won't see too many pro-life people fiddling around with being prochoice on the net, while you may see a number of people trying out different viewpoints and sexual identities -- I think the difference is that most people won't dispute something that is an intrinsic belief of who they ARE (Freud's superego?), although they certainly might (and do) experiment with other (and less intrinsic) facets of their being. For instance, if you look at my sig, I suppose you could think I was a vicious assassin, had a sort of sick sense of humor, or was obsessed with Miseur Boutros Boutros-Ghali (or that I just like to say his name...;)). Most people don't take the time to get to know people in "real" life the way they do online, but in so many ways there are also things you will miss in online relationships that you could catch much quicker in person just from the tilt of a head, the look in ones' eyes, the quirk of one's lips, or the way a person speaks... Incidentally, I don't know too many people who ask mundane questions (chit chat, if you will) in emails like they will in mailed correspondence or even in person... We are a product of our environments. It just so happens that we are learning to deal with a whole different ecosystem. -Kyra. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The Lesson I learned in Cairo still applies. The only way to deal with bureaucrats is with stealth and sudden violence." -- U.N. Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali, 1993 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, Stephen Calhoun wrote: > >Would you be so > >generous, so open-minded if you discovered that your new pal had been > >impersonating a vastly different personage --morals, ethics, beliefs, > >appearance, sexuality, behavior totally inconsistent with whom they > >purported to be? > > > >I think not. > > > >Vicki > >Authentic, always > > My experience: by the time I've unpacked my projections, be it here or f2f, > and then gotten into the open perceptual/interpretive space between the > unpacked projection(s) and the next round of projections, the person upon > whom I've been projecting does seem totally inconsistent with the person I > purported them to be. > > Of course, this is just my experience. > > Stephen. > > A thin bright reed song, > if it should fade, > we fade. > > --RUMI pbuh > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:55:23 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Cat On a hot tin truth. . . In-Reply-To: <199604061655.RAA07401@easynet.co.uk> Laurel, > First a quick word to Walter.. Demon moi? Wilbur said that, I thought with some accuracy. Not that I think _you_ are demon, but that the flow of our talk here was one sided in some ways -- and that if you did not exist we would need to invent you! So he cast you in the role . . . any way that is how I see it . . . perhaps he thought you do it better than him! Handing you the mantle as it were. > First Lesson in demonology - > > The worse sort of Devil is the one that wears a fair face. You cant trust anyone can you! We must search out the evil that lurks (!) here. [A well meaning but sarcastic aside.] > Dolores > > Who is going to take a brief respite from cluttering up the list. See you soon, w _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 21:12:26 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Magister-L was Re: Varieties of CyberPsych Robert de Cyberie writes: > Charles, > You are a list owner? What is your list about? The list is called Magister-L, and it discusses topics at the intersection of spirituality (broadly interpreted to mean the mythical, the magical and the mystical) and games. There tend to be two distinct concerns on the list -- we need a term for "groups of threads" that cluster around a common theme, don't we? One has to do with the use of magic in Role Playing Games (RPGs), and the possibility of incorporating "authentic" magical insights from shamanism, Renaissance hermeticism etc into games, and the other with the design and playing of variants on Hesse's Glass Bead Game (GBGs). Right now, there's a thread discussing the qlippoth (roughly, the shadows of the sephiroth in Kabbalah), and another exploring some possible chess-based games charged with symbolic content -- including the game of "Enochian Chess" which WB Yeats used to play, and which functioned as a sort of summation of the "Golden Dawn" system of magic. There's a fuller list description at: >>> http://drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu/~jae/magister.html and anyone who wishes to subscribe simply needs to ask one of the two list owners... Best wishes, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/index.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:38:27 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Response or why do I read all this stuff? Hi, I have been watching the e-mail discussion for some time and although I am not ready yet to provide some messages I should relay some thoughts I had reading all the stuff which spilled into my study. 1. I read the essays (Psyber 1 and 2) by Walter outlining the topics of Psyber-L. I found his outline very interesting and that is why I subscibed to the List. 2. The present state of the discussion I feel a sense of meandering. Some people want to study the "mechanics" of the psychological processes determining the psyberspace (or is it cyberspace?) while others are busy creating these processes with their reactions. I am more interested in the analysis. From this point of view I appreciate the comments by Jurek, Walter and Susan. 3. It was pointed out that spoken or written language is an important vehicle for the transmission of our thoughts. Semantics is part of it. As a non-native speaker (but with an exposure to several years of US-English) I sometimes look up the meaning and use of words. With respect to "lurkers" - (1. To lie in wait, as in ambush. 2. To move furtively; sneak. 3. To exist unobserved or unsuspected; according to Oxford Dict.). - I must say that it is unfair to mark those of us with this label who for the moment have chosen to read and think before they write. 4. Sometimes I wonder what is the difference between an Internet-chat and a get together of Hams (Radio Amateurs). The coordinates of space and time are the same. Werner _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 06:02:45 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Fred Bauder Organization: SLV BBS Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls. Sounds like Laurel-Delores didn't get her hyrophoby shots. Fred _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:42:20 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: various animals: cats, sheep, pigeons, . . . Psyber folks, Straitjackets: individual and social experimentation, the nature of reality, truth vs. illusion, "what's in a name", zen meditation, objectification of people, demonization, the futility of communicating meaning, voices from the past, action reaction, etc. Uh, yeah . . . What about the role of Internet in motivating people to action, coordinating and implementing social movement? Motivation. Hmm . . . what is the root of cybernetics, cyberspace, cyber-? And, a side question: You may have heard a few stories how law enforcement uses the Internet to entrap criminals. When does a thought become a crime? What questions can psychology bring to bear on these deeds? "Hey, pull my finger." John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:12:30 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Don't call me a lurker! Psyber folks, Damn! Truth is stranger than fiction. >"The Lesson I learned in Cairo still applies. The only way to >deal with bureaucrats is with stealth and sudden violence." > -- U.N. Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali, 1993 Kyra, Hi, you sick, vicious, obsessed killer, you! Laughter. It's hard to evoke from only the words. I occasionally smile when I read a message, but personally I find that authentic laughter works better on simultaneous mode rather than asynchronous. It's a matter of timing. Anger. Now, that's much easier. Right? John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:45:15 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls. > >Also, about mascara and lipstick, mentioned as ego-building devices: > >I don't care what you call 'em. I think mascara and the wonderbra are a >couple of humankind's great inventions. Isn't that mankind? I have to agree that mascara and the wonderbra are great inventions, but I think that women should only be allowed to wear them on alternate rainy Wednesday's.. Otherwise, women look too cute all the time, we males are constantly overstimulated, and consequently we're categorized as nothing but animals with no control... ;-P Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:09:18 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Dear Fred, I came out of retirement and re lurking, specifically in order to applaud and appreciate another member of the list with the same monumental spelling and vocabulary skills. Now I really feel at home. In fact I looked up hyrophoby and the closest I could come to hyro anything was some obscure term for the the fear of hyrax any of various agile herbivorous mammals of Africa and Sw Asia resembling rodents but with feet like hooflike toes which I located jammed betwen hypstometry and Hyrcania. As I live in Britain, rest assured no such shots are necessary. Obviously my dictionary is at fault unless you mean Hydrophobia in which case let me put your mind at rest again. We dont got it. Let me point you in the direction of mad cow disease.. unfortunatly for which there are no shots, just a manic desire to post to lists. Oh bad news..its highly contagious. Dolores _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:56:38 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Cat On a hot tin truth. . . At 02:55 PM 4/7/96 GMT, you wrote: >Laurel, > >> First a quick word to Walter.. Demon moi? > >Wilbur said that, I thought with some accuracy. Not that I think >_you_ are demon, but that the flow of our talk here was one sided in >some ways -- and that if you did not exist we would need to invent >you! So he cast you in the role . . . any way that is how I see it . >. . perhaps he thought you do it better than him! Handing you the >mantle as it were. > No, I make a great demon, but Laurel was having so much fun.. But as Laurel (or what that Delores!) said, some of the best demon's are people that you don't expect to be demon's. How can I expect you to think of me other than a demon if I don't point someone else out? > >> First Lesson in demonology - >> >> The worse sort of Devil is the one that wears a fair face. > >You cant trust anyone can you! We must search out the evil that >lurks (!) here. [A well meaning but sarcastic aside.] > You can trust people to follow their nature, and everyone has a little of the devil them.. Well, if I search out the demon that lives here, then I'll spend time looking for it, and probably find it, only to feel it. While on the other hand, I've found that if I don't search for it, I almost never find it, and I almost never feel it! I'll let someone else make a list of the demon's that a lurking behind the facade's here! Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 09:13:21 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Lurkers, flamers and other daemons Dr. Werner Schmidt writes: > With respect to "lurkers" - (1. To lie in wait, as in ambush. 2. To > move furtively; sneak. 3. To exist unobserved or unsuspected; > according to Oxford Dict.). - I must say that it is unfair to mark > those of us with this label who for the moment have chosen to > read and think before they write. While I would yield to none in my devotion to the OED, I have to say that it's the wrong place to go if one wishes to understand the contemporary cyberspace usage of the word "lurker". Like such other cyberspace coinages as "flaming", it has grown up with the territory -- and while it may have a demeaning sense when used by those who demean, it is also capable of a neutral or even affectionate reading... Compare Walter's insightful / delightful remark: > Cyberspace is full of pain -- flames -- are natural here -- there are > varieties of flames -- as well as earth, air and water. What would > the psyche or a list that wishes to meet her be without all of these > elements. I hope we have the guts to -- more than tolerate them -- > welcome them. Flaming, unlike lurking, can indeed be intrusive and inflammatory , and there may be good reasons to dislike it, as one may dislike any other forms of incivility -- yet the word can also be self-applied without dishonor, as in Laurel's description of one of her posts as "Flame bait..." along with her comment "I can handle it." For myself, I am partial to the coinages of the cyber realm, which -- thanks, I believe, to a witty and literate streak in many hackers -- tend to show a great deal more imagination than is usual in these times: I am particularly fond of "mailer-daemons"... Lurking, meaning "choosing the read and think before one writes", is an honorable practice, and indeed is *recommended* by many list-owners to those who are new to their respective lists... Cordially, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/index.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:22:37 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls. In-Reply-To: <9604070602.D0972MM@slvbbs.com> Fred > Sounds like Laurel-Delores didn't get her hyrophoby shots. Webster Definition for "hyro" No definition for 'hyro'. Maybe you mean: 1.hero 2.hydro 3.hypo You dont do you? C'mon give us a clue. w _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:22:06 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: various animals: cats, sheep, pigeons, . . . In-Reply-To: <960407104219_370710756@emout06.mail.aol.com> John, > What about the role of Internet in motivating people to action, coordinating > and implementing social movement? > > Motivation. Hmm . . . what is the root of cybernetics, cyberspace, cyber-? To do with steering -- control of information. Steering . . . direction Psybernet . . . direction of the psyche . . . being led by the psyche ? Trying to control the psyche ! Ego . . . ??? I am thinking of that phrase of Freud's -- do I have it right? psychotherapy (or psychoanalysis) "terminable and interminable", there is something about depth work that leads us around and around in circles -- we have started a thousand threads and "finished" none -- (Wilbur, this must be driving you mad!) That is typical of lists, especially open ones like this -- people sub and unsub, the questions we raise have no answers, the themes recur . In 93 we had a long Anonymity thread and a long Ontology thread in this list (ie the study of what is real). Could we steer it away from this? Should we? No way I think, lets watch in awe! If we are building a community -- perhaps this list is the waterfall -- or a water wheel in one part of the neighbourhood. I'm doing it now -- letting it flow! John, I enjoy this letting it flow, I think it is a respect for the unconscious and even the free association here is "on topic". But nothing gets done! Is that what I hear you say? Hmm . . . perhaps the water wheel can make electricity? = Links = Now here is a word that the OED perhaps won't have caught up with: link: An URL embedded in a hypertext document, with a visible textual label that when clicked allows one to surf to another site, or document. This ability to link is one of characteristics of the psyche (which on one can define) -- Moreno -- "saw" the psyche as being outside the body, in the world in the form of what he called "tele" projections of feeling into space. The Psychodrama and sociodrama are a forms that make the psyche visible -- because they show us the links. When I wear my Moreno hat (perhaps I should just subscribe to the list as Moreno) we live in a world where there are strong threads connecting each of us to one another -- some are strong and positive -- others neutral or weak or negative. These threads are also to such entities as "god" & "pooh bear". The exploration of the tele he called "sociometry" -- it is worth looking in an old book published by Beacon House (I have a 53 edition) called "Who Shall Survive" by JL Moreno -- in the back there is a map of 4350 lines (tele) links in a between 435 people! (A study done in 1932. ) Seeing it this way "we" _are_ our links -- our psyche -- and it is not in us, it is the tele we project and absorb. The point I am making (too cryptically) is that the web is like an upheaval in the cosmic balance of our psychic climate. Robert mentioned community and home -- I guess we need that to survive here! I do, I have link overload, which also plays havoc with the connections in the real world. Do we just hunker down in Syberia? Do we build? Do we find settlements? Stay lost? I think I am a builder. enough for now, Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:03:12 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Putting a human face on technology. ;-) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4b12.32.19960407165638.0074c768@monmouth.com> Wilbur, > You can trust people to follow their nature, and everyone has a little of > the devil them.. Well put. > I'll let someone else make a list of the demon's that a lurking behind the > facade's here! I hope someone does -- here is one definition of a demon: >>> From the Greek _daimon_, a personal familiar spirit or guardian angel, like the Roman _genius_, roughly synonymous with "soul". The diamon organisational development a hero could undergo apotheosis, become a god, and rise to heaven to dwell among the stars. --- Barbara G. Walker. <<< > --------------------------------------- > Putting a human face on technology. ;-) > --------------------------------------- I returned to your post really to ask you to say more about this! Now here is the future for us, what sort of impact will that have on our psyche! Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:39:34 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Marah Rosenberg~203-748-8835" Subject: a lurker speaks In-Reply-To: <960405203929.1ad9@charlie.usd.edu> how theatrical this all is don't you think? conflict is part of community building, it has to be. we are not in utopia, and i'm not altogeather sure if that's a bad thing. gosh if we were - would there be anything for us to talk about? isn't part of human nature to try to make this chaotic messed up puzzle we have of a world into a utopian state. ? the question is - which version of utopia... maybe i should read animal farm and brave new world again.. please, keep going everyone - we all (the talkative and not so) are creating exactly what i hoped to find on this list. a creation/evolution of community and a discussion of the steps we take along the way. -c1rcle _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:25:46 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Putting a human face on technology. ;-) At 12:03 PM 4/9/96 GMT, you wrote: >Wilbur, > >> You can trust people to follow their nature, and everyone has a little of >> the devil them.. > >Well put. It took quite a few years to come to understand that! > >> I'll let someone else make a list of the demon's that a lurking behind the >> facade's here! > >I hope someone does -- here is one definition of a demon: > >>>> From the Greek _daimon_, a personal familiar spirit or guardian angel, like the Roman _genius_, roughly synonymous with "soul". The diamon organisational development a hero could undergo apotheosis, become a god, and rise to heaven to dwell among the stars. --- Barbara G. Walker. <<< > Somehow, I wasn't thinking about that sort of demon.. but I guess that you know that and your devil made you try to twist the definition..! > >> --------------------------------------- >> Putting a human face on technology. ;-) >> --------------------------------------- > > >I returned to your post really to ask you to say more about this! I believe that the current PC has enough power to do this, I just need to write a hell of a piece of software. Of course, this sort of undertaking is more than one man can accomplish, so I'm at the conceptualization stage of a new business.. but I truly believe that it's only a matter of tiem until we get computers to work in a way that is more "human". >Now here is the future for us, what sort of impact will that have on our >psyche! > I'm not sure, I can argue both for and against, positive and negative effect. I hope that there will be a lot of changes in the world, and I hope that they will be positive ones, but I can't say how this technology will actually change the world.. I would venture a guess that this sort of technology will have profound localized effects, but overall, will have little impact on humanity at large. After all, the technology will just be a better mirror of humanity, a better "widget" which is a trend that has been going on for centuries. I can imagine that this will help make people more "human" in their approach, and may help us understand what are the unique parts of being human, but given the current socio-political climates, I can't tell what the overall effect will be. On the other hand, can't that be said about all forms of technology? The thrust of any technology is to provide some sort of public benefit eventually. But along the way, there are always disenfranchised people, and abuses of technologies as the culture encompasses any new technology. I think that this new interface will introduce technology to a much larger part of everyday life, and lessen the entrance requirements to be able to take advantage of the technology. On the other hand, this will commoditize certain types of life and probably segment the population more as time goes on. Those people without technology skills will be more locked out of paying jobs because the computer will be able to do more and more of the jobs that are considered "unskilled". But with the computer doing more and more of the routine tasks, their may be in turn a reason to create a leisure class. In new this technology may come to change the entire relationship that we have with each other, perhaps making it easier for people to look each other in the eye, since we'll be accustomed to dealing with things on a face to face basis, and being looking directly in the eye. But the computer will not have the same human motivations, (at least not until we have a better idea of what being human is all about) but will be further removing the requirement for human handling of tasks which are routine and mundane. Sort of an acceleration of the existing trends, perhaps which will free mankind to a life of leisure, or perhaps enslave mankind to a life of leisure. But once again, aren't these trends all trends that already exist and have existed for centuries? I don't believe that this technology will cure world hunger, but it might help communcation a bit, which in turn might be the route to a solution to the problems of the world. But I don't believe that the nature of being human will change. (more than slightly) The books that I read from the thinkers of the 16th and 17th century still apply to modern technological life. We haven't come that far in the last 400 years. As to what effect will it have on our psyche, I can't tell you what effect it will have on other people's psyche, but the intent from my perspective is to make technology (and therefore life) more human. There are a lot of discussions about how technology has removed the face to face aspect of life from our day to day life. If people believe that the face is real, does that mean that they are now dealing with life on a face to face basis? Or is it some sort of video game competing for our attention against the people around us, and therefore reducing the level of face to face interaction? When I figure out how to get each individuals face in the computer, and you are speaking to a projection of my face, are we speaking "face to face"? When the computer carries enough of my thoughts, beliefs, mental processing, so that it can emulate almost all of me, are you having face to face meeting with me or a computer? Are we having a face to face meeting now? What makes my flesh and bone face anything other than a piece of sophisticated software that has certain performance parameters? What's to say that my face isn't entirely an automation from the experiences and cultural influences of my life, running on a body which provide a background of habit and basic emotional responses. Who's to say that this entire message wasn't created by a the technology of my humanity and only a few words here and there are actually of my own choosing? I believe that the inside and the outside aren't every far apart. I believe that the mind is interwoven into the fabric of our lifes, both internal and external. I believe that the psyche exists in an amoung our world, and not as something that resides only in by cerebrial cortext. So you completely define Psyche, and I'll define what changes I believe may happen to it. Are we the "Ghost in the machine", are we the machine, or are we entirely spirit? If I'm successful in putting my face on the computer, and can put enough intelligence into it so that people can't discern whether it's alive or not, is that my child, will it live on after I'm dead? Will my Psyche be contained in the machine? Isn't it already in this message? Or am I just a computer with a sophisticated program designed to believe that I'm alive? Isn't conciousness just a dream anyway? Hmmm.. this could go on forever.. I'm going to go write some software. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:31:58 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Sons (and daughters) of the Highest (was Various animals) Walter, It didn't seem right to keep the title as it is. We have to be somewhere between the angels and the animals, or both. Please pardon my dramatic title heading. >> Motivation. Hmm . . . what is the root of cybernetics, >>cyberspace, cyber-? >To do with steering -- control of information. Steering . . . >direction Psybernet . . . direction of the psyche . . . being led >by the psyche ? Trying to control the psyche ! Ego . . . ??? The psyche is out there, in the dream of the dreamer, the imagination of the mover. What is the psyche? This is a Greek word? A Greek concept? Is psyche nearly synonymous with collective unconscious? With Platonic realm? Can someone out there answer these questions? I realise fully we may be venturing into Terra Incognita. "Here there be dragons." Is this too far astray from our prime objectives? Not long ago, I read a newspaper article in the Seattle Sunday paper about some high executive that works for Microsoft here in Redmond, Washington. This executive (don't recall his name) has a graduate degree in physics. Anyway, he said that high school physics covers up to Newtonian physics. College physics is theory of relativity, and graduate-level physics covers the early stages of quantum theory. There is only a 'select priesthood' (my emphasis) that are at the cutting edge of physics. Now, we don't need physics to answer these questions, do we? What are thought processes? Do we channel something from a realm of thought? What happens when we think? Stephen, I believe, mentioned something earlier about the collapse of probabilities. With respect to this, I read a book several years ago by Oxford cosmologist, John Barrow; the title was 'The World Within the World'. He called the mind an quantum computer. >circles -- we have started a thousand threads and "finished" >none -- Yes . . . This is part of the process, right? I keep getting caught up in the moment and forget the previous present. A weakness for the moment. All of the topics brought up are interesting in their own right, the topics I jokingly called straitjackets. Walter, you said Psybernet functions as a jumping-off point to more focussed work. Would this solve some of this dilemma? >................................................................the questions >we raise have no answers, the themes recur . The questions cannot be answered adequately at this time? Perhaps, we should try applying the best answer for the time being? The best answer(s) will withstand the test of time? Or, are we asking questions whose nature we cannot fathom? Maybe we are dealing with something along the lines of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, ie, when we attempt to determine the 'true' nature of something, we change it in the process. So, we find ourselves back at square one again. Are these questions or talk surrounding them, some of that bullshit Laurel is trying to point out? >If we are building a community -- perhaps this list is the >waterfall-- or a water wheel in one part of the >neighbourhood. I'm doing it now -- letting it flow! John, I >enjoy this letting it flow, I think it is a respect for the >unconscious and even the free >association here is "on topic". I thank you for your tolerance, Walter. Since I've heard no cries of outrage from others, I'll take that as mute acceptance. Where do you draw the line? Is it based on each individual's personal judgment? If it is, then this truly is a community of responsible individuals. A cyberspace utopia? Is that too bold? Of course, utopias have to be built on top of something. I understand everybody wants something from this space. There is a reason for being here. For instance, Laurel thinks this is a place to be heard, to get attention, to influence others. Wilber wants to utilize this space in one aspect to answer research questions. Charles and Stephen have used this space to explore the psyche. If you don't have a reason, then surely someone will have to create one for you. >Hmm . . . perhaps the water wheel can make electricity? Talking about free association, this reminds me of the creativity sessions termed, 'brain-storming'. No judgment is applied beforehand, so as not to limit our possibilities. (Right, I know no one speaks like this.) >.............................-- Moreno -- "saw" the psyche as being outside >the body, in the world in the form of what he called "tele" >projections of feeling into space. Yes, I have speculated about similar questions. Our skin forms the boundary between our body and the surrounding environment. When the wind blows on our skin then we feel sensation. The sensation may provoke a feeling. Our nervous system interacts with the environment. Think about the influence of weather on our demeanor. Think also about the 'power' of a place to influence your inner self, as if the scenery touches our archaic self. Is this New Age mumbo jumbo or is there really a physiological response? >When I wear my Moreno hat (perhaps I should just subscribe >to the list as Moreno) we live in a world where there are >strong threads connecting each of us to one another -- some >are strong and positive -- others neutral or weak or negative. >These threads are also to such entities as "god" & "pooh bear". Kurt Vonnegut expressed similar ideas in his books, 'Cat's Cradle' and 'Slaughterhouse Five' (or was it Nine? I threw these books away because they seems to become trite.). In Vonnegut's conception of these connections, there is a special reason for their existence. Why do you have the friends you have? I can see the avenue has opened. I would like to know more about this Moreno character. I find it fascinating hearing about the visionaries of the turn of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th. > . . . a map of 4350 lines (tele) links in a between 435 people! This seems simple enough, but a picture would be wonderful here! >The point I am making (too cryptically) is that the web is like >an upheaval in the cosmic balance of our psychic climate. I'm not quite understanding. You are talking about some kind of polarization in a psychic dimension or like a shift in conceptual gravity? I can't find the right words. Have to use scientific terminology that describes physical phenomena or what affects physical phenomena. The word, synergetic, comes to my mind. This would describe an effect where forces acting in unison are greater than just their sum total. Catalyst also comes to my mind. >I think I am a builder. A sanctuary, a coffee house, a beer garden minus the beer, . . . The phrases global village and town meeting also come to mind. But, I believe, 'Happening' describes it more fully as I see it. Well, my mind's picked. Respectfully, John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:44:31 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . . Are we creating the reality(ies) as we proceed? _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:54:10 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . . At 11:44 PM 4/8/96 -0400, you wrote: >Are we creating the reality(ies) as we proceed? > Maybe you are, I don't have one! Or I should have one? Or I have only one? I thought I had one, but it got lost? Or, what we used to throw around in High School, "Reality, what a concept!" Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:29:09 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) of the Highest (was Various animals) pc parsing... pardon cybernetics psyche control psyche? collective prime covers physics covers priesthood cutting processes channel probabilities circles process caught previous cannot cannot process community personal cyberspace place create possibilities called projections connecting positive conception connections picture cosmic polarization conceptual phenomena Catalyst phrases come picked *** Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:42:26 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Putting a human face on technology. ;-) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4b12.32.19960409032546.007584f8@monmouth.com> Wilbur, > >> You can trust people to follow their nature, and everyone has a little of > >> the devil them.. > > > >Well put. > > It took quite a few years to come to understand that! Me too, and I still have difficulty with utter evil! > >>>> From the Greek _daimon_, a personal familiar spirit or guardian angel, > like the Roman _genius_, roughly synonymous with "soul". The diamon > organisational development a hero could undergo apotheosis, become a god, > and rise to heaven to dwell among the stars. --- Barbara G. Walker. <<< > Somehow, I wasn't thinking about that sort of demon.. but I guess that you > know that and your devil made you try to twist the definition..! The thing is that it is hard to tell these demons apart and we may need them all . . . a lesson for list owners? > >> --------------------------------------- > >> Putting a human face on technology. ;-) > >> --------------------------------------- I enjoyed your musings about the impact of technology. Ah -- the face as interface Ha! And what a powerful one it is. One of the things I like to say -- which is getting a bit old hat perhaps is that email and links etc have such psychological impact because they are asynchronous and remove the face, letting us see instantly beyond it. As you put it back on the screen it perhaps makes the machine more _human_ but a little further away from all that is _more_ than human. I think that is a pretty radical thought! What do you think? Defining the psyche is a futile task -- but I can tell you what I think it is and that is the nature of the beast. My message recently on Moreno probably did a bit of that. Hmm . . . On my WWW pages I have a page for Moreno, McLuhan and Jung. I have them there to mark out the branch of the tree that Psybernet is located on. Words mean something within the context of a school of thought -- but I hope that by using those three as marking points we can avoid being too narrow and at the same time attract people who can enjoy speaking to each other. > actually change the world.. I would venture a guess that this sort of > technology will have profound localized effects, but overall, will have > little impact on humanity at large. After all, the technology will just be > a better mirror of humanity, a better "widget" which is a trend that has > been going on for centuries. Trends lead to major leaps -- heat water up enough and it turns to steam. That is what we are into I think with all this. Got to go . . . look forward to more on all this. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:18:22 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . . Wilber, You wouldn't happen to be Japanese, would you? Because I saw on the news that a Japanese had already put a face on technology, a Japanese face. Apparently, this researcher is using a computer interface to mimic mood and emotion on a computer-animated visage. Perhaps, we'll see this technology evolve, in the near future, into our first computer-mediated language translator. John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:46:18 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . . At 01:18 AM 4/9/96 -0400, you wrote: >Wilber, > >You wouldn't happen to be Japanese, would you? Because I saw on the news >that a Japanese had already put a face on technology, a Japanese face. That was at Tokyo University I believe. Are you talking about the AP bit that was on CNN a couple of weeks ago? > Apparently, this researcher is using a computer interface to mimic mood and >emotion on a computer-animated visage. There are several people doing just this sort of thing.. If there is interest I can provide links to Web sites.. >Perhaps, we'll see this technology evolve, in the near future, into our first >computer-mediated language translator. I think that Language translation is definately going to be a target market, but not the primary one for quite a while. I think that there are significant differences between the Japanense usage of language and the American usage of language. I've done Judo since I was seven and over the years the difference between the Japanese people that I've met and the American's that I've met has lead me to believe that the Japanese have a more "Iconic" or singular connection to language. Japanese as a language is more object oriented, and I would imagine, as a result, their thinking would be more object oriented. (ie, symbolic). I would imagine that the face will solve a lot of language issues more directly there than here. Certainly, Sony and a couple of other Japanese companies are further along with this technology than we are here in the US. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:48:24 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . . In-Reply-To: <960409011820_267277953@mail02.mail.aol.com> > Apparently, this researcher is using a computer interface to mimic mood and > emotion on a computer-animated visage. You mean it searches out the mood of the computer and feeds that back -- like: i am an a good mood because i have a brand new CD-ROM! That is scary! w _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:43:31 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == On Psyber-L -- a Summary == == On Psyber-L -- a Summary == Over the last couple of weeks there has been lively discussion as people get to know each other -- make links -- settle in. This is a summary of themes that are on the boil here at the moment. My summary is too prosaic to do the creativity justice . . . This is my attempt at making it easier perhaps for those not reading it all, to ease them in? I often add something like this to the list description on the web, which I update -- and which I hope will add some cohesiveness to the list . . . let us know if it helps (or not) -- that way we can learn about facilitation. In no particular order: * Varieties of metaphor of where we are -- a theatre -- on a hot tin truth -- whispering in corners behind palms. * Reality -- the nature of it. What is authentic and what is bullshit, posturing. * Trust -- related to the above but on a more personal level. Authenticity -- is it possible here? Who is real? * The nature of the psyche. Includes the various archetypes -- ego -- shadow etc. demons. * The value of lurking -- the nature of list behaviour -- * Clarifying and fine tuning the "prime directive" of the list. * Dialogue -- the nature of it on lists -- and in _this_ list. * The impact of technology (social - psychological) -- * On line Leadership. The dynamics of flaming -- lurking -- varieties of facilitation. Power. Elitism. * Community and building in cyberspace. Finding a home. * Netsex -- and love on the net -- relationships here. This does not cover it all -- what else? Walter, Surprising myself as I bring this linearity to our wonderful flux! _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:52:13 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . . John ==> Dolores/Laurel on Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:20:26 -0500: >>> Language is a lie and actions speak louder than words. Show me an authentic person and you'll see a silent one. But then, I don't always choose truth over beauty. <<< So you're using lies to comm with us? Glad to see traces of your typing *ac- tions*, since they speak louder, indeed, than the words they form; they shout: "I'M TYPING, THEREFORE I AM". Mind to show us a really *silent* person via pure e-mail?? Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:59:22 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls. Wilbur: > >I have to agree that mascara and the wonderbra are great inventions, but I >think that women should only be allowed to wear them on alternate rainy >Wednesday's.. wet t-shirts ?? > >Otherwise, women look too cute all the time, we males are constantly >overstimulated, and consequently we're categorized as nothing but animals >with no control... duh....I do believe that IS the point, dear. Luv on a snowy Tuesday _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:28 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. Jurek and fellow Psyberians, Jurek, you mention our inner voice, a host of inner voices, and inner dialogue as a similie for poetry. >I would like to put forward the metaphor of our INNER DIALOGUE with INNER >VOICES. Writing poetry to one self - is it not as hearing the voice in one self? Now, why constrain it to poetry? Are we not all full of the voices all the time? Voices of our parents, spouses, children, co-workers, leaders.... I had a lot conversation with You Walter and Robert before putting MY words on computers keyboard. When we are cleared in our minds then we let hear OUR voice externally. This is a feature about online dialogue that I like best, the ability to pause and carefully construct our messages to each other (based on that inner dialogue you expressed so well) so that our voices speak to more accurately reflect our deeper thoughts. >Maybe the lurkers are more to inner dialog that to outer dialog? Their existence and our knowledge of their presence almosts forces us to be more authentic. Glib and false messages will result in being flamed or worse, ignored. Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:38 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Varieties of CyberPsych Walter et al, It's a little late (time has passed since your post containing the following words) but I want to reply to you anyways. >Cyberspace is full of pain -- flames -- are natural here -- there are >varieties of flames -- as well as earth, air and water. What would >the psyche or a list that wishes to meet her be without all of these >elements. I hope we have the guts to -- more than tolerate them -- >welcome them. In the post I had written prior to yours, I spoke of tolerance. Here you speak of going beyond that, to an embracing of them. Words with import, words that make me pause and then agree. I have followed the posts since my last message. Several posts by XMeff@AOL.COM (John) grated. I felt the desire to rebut his remarks and to delete posts with his signature, but I didn't. Taking a time out to question my own reaction to his words spoke about me and not him. For that, I give thanks that he has become a vocal member of the Psyberian community. As you said "welcome them". >Yes -- and what a thing it is then that you and Laurel speak of the >possibility of being kicked off! That came as a surprise -- It feels >as if neither of you are seriously thinking this is an option. And it >isn't. Exactly! Since the possibility of "being kicked off" is not a likely event, the result is that we *belong* here. That is the point I had hoped to make. A Psyberian community is not so easily legislated nor defined since we ourselves are not so easily defined in this medium. The psychology of listservs, the nature of the listserv community, the beings who live there ... what a wonderful way to detour on the journey of self-discovery! Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:15:01 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Just a thought in passing Hello to all, Sorry for the silence on my part. It's been a busy time since my last post and responses. Part of the time has been spent reading. I've been bouncing back and forth from Pirsig's classic, _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_, and his more recent (1991) _Lila_. Don't ask for a rationale reason for bouncing between the two books. The best I can give is that it feels good as I sense the connections. Anyways, I wanted to share an idea from his _Zen ..._. Pirsig dwells on the notion of reason / rationality. Reason apparently is based on logic and the scientific method, tools which have helped us to understand (in part) the world in order to meet the real needs of food, shelter, clothing, and warmth. However, when these needs have been met, the same reason/rationality is inadequate for our new needs - spiritual, emotional, and aesthetic - needs of the soul. I wonder at what we are trying to do here? Are we trying to understand our *reality* in this dimension using the logic of a f2f world? Are we measuring this *reality* with a fifteenth (or nineteenth) century mindframe? Perhaps our attempts to *define* this communicative adventure are inappropriate and we should be allowing ourselves an experiential understanding until a new vocabulary arises. How can we define with words that have risen out of a different dimension, a different reality? Just a thought or two in passing, Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:16 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Cat amongst the cyberpigeons Laurel/Dolores, In your response to Susan you state: L/D>Susan, you missed the point entirely. Perhaps I should have been L/D>clearer, though some people seemed to have understood. Maybe I was L/D>talking too plainly. Language is a beautiful thing. Language is life, L/D>it is the embodiement of emotion, it is the expression of the inner L/D>self. When I write I am myself. My true self, because I put part of me L/D>on the page, exposed, laid bare for all to see. These words speak of a deep and profound concern for authentic dialogue. As Jurek mentioned in his post about *inner voices*, the inner self is in constant dialogue hoping to be reborn in communion (communication). I wonder how it comes to be that you find the courage to engage in authentic soul work while online, for such is the engagement in authentic dialogue (Walter has provided reference to this in some measure through his reference to Thomas Moore's _Care of the Soul_)? L/D>Now nowhere in Walters dream, (Walters dream for this list is what L/D>attracted me here in the first place) did it say one had to be a L/D>psychiatrist, psychotherapist or anything else prefixed with psych. L/D>Having sat on the list for a couple of weeks it occured to me, that L/D>people weren't showing themselves as much as showing their academic L/D>prowess. Immensely irritating because I wasn't able to connect to half L/D>of the things they were saying. They were using the language of the L/D>psych academic. One I dont know. Your words are important to all of us. Not only must we care for the words we speak so that they are authentic (even if it is to ask for the date of a conference), we need to allow our words to connect rather than divide. Simple words simply stated have more power than a thesis, a dissertation. Perhaps, they are also more honest. L/D>Secondly, it is the true self that shines in text, the difference L/D>between an academic drawing of swords and a debate between two souls. L/D>That's when we will all come to know each other, when we drop the L/D>bullshit and speak as we would. You'll find no disagreement here. What you *hear* is what you get. It's a fertile field of investigation together, the nature of our dialogue while online. We definitely can't understand what's happening using the traditional *text* analysis as this medium gives the text on the screen an oral nature. Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:44:52 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: klary Subject: Interfaces and Words Walter said... > I enjoyed your musings about the impact of technology. Ah -- the face > as interface Ha! And what a powerful one it is. One of the things I > like to say -- which is getting a bit old hat perhaps is that email > and links etc have such psychological impact because they are > asynchronous and remove the face, letting us see instantly beyond it. I believe that one of the way we use visual images/appearances is as a labelling or categorizing technique...perhaps to filter out from amidst all the "things" in the universe which ones might appeal to us...whether they are objects, people, or whatever...most of us seem to have some inclination towards gravitating towards or away from certain patterns or images...in people we *generally* do this as well. racist? than ignore words and thoughts from people who don't have skin color , sexist? ignore thoughts from people of gender ? classist? ignore people who do for a living? intellectual elitist? ignore anything said by people without credentials...Labels used in the large and the small I believe limit us, limit our thinking, stop us from openly evaluating input...words, images, sounds, people...as soon as we can attach a label we no longer feel the need to evaluate - we have a mental box to put the thing into...i like to call labels "mind condoms"...because they "protect" us from getting "infected" by any different thoughts or ideas... this is precisely why i believe that non Face-to-Face communication allows us to be more "ourselves" and to communicate with people whom in face-to-face communication we might not have...it is much more difficult to label a thing or a person or an idea when we have no convenient image to attach a label to, it takes longer for us to evaluate the words and form an image of the person when we have to create it...and when we take the time to form the image we hear things we might not have heard before...because we have to create the image from scratch...from the person him/herself, instead of from our own portable scrapbook of stereotypes and mugshots...like the police sketch artist drawing from scratch from verbal descriptions vs. having the victim pick a set of eyes, and a nose, and a mouth and a hair style and a head shape from a preset list of "standard" bodyparts...we have the opportunity to create a more accurate "image" of the person on the other end of the screen. k.lary ps - as way of intro, i am a software developer with a background in user interface design and a strong interest in the ways that using computers alters the way we live/work/play - with computers themselves, and with each other and the world around us. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:13:46 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Putting..into context Walter and Psyberians >Walter > Words mean something within the context of a school of thought . And now change of context. Words mean something only within the context. Conversation without clarity about context is meaningless and without meaning. If context is clear and words non clear communication is possible. If words are clear but context not there will be no communication. Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:13:44 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Pictures of reality Wilbur, How can You know what pictures create external world in the brains of other people? What a chance it will be that those pictures for all people are the same? If they are different, which one depict "the right reality"? If they are the same, whay do we act differently? Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:30:24 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Pictures of reality At 04:13 PM 4/9/96 EDT, you wrote: >Wilbur, >How can You know what pictures create external world in the brains of other >people? I'm not sure that I got that thru the grammer.. but I'll try to respond to what I believe you are saying. I don't know what peoples perception of the external world will be through pictures.. There are people in the groups of people in the world that can't recognize 3d perspective on a piece of paper. I don't remember the tribe of native peoples that the test was done on, but there was a group of people that were shown picutures of the surrounding landscape and they were not able to recognize the places from the pictures. Seeing things in pictures is a learned response, and personal by nature. Or, once again, "Reality, what a concept!" >What a chance it will be that those pictures for all people are the same? Then there's the story of the "Tower of Babel".. >If they are different, which one depicts "the right reality"? I can't define what is right for the next person, but I'm not attempting to create the "right" interface, just one that a vast majority of humanity can interface with. >If they are the same, whay do we act differently? But we are the same and different at the same time. I don't know what languages the face will know, and I'm sure that it will go beyond my comprehension at some point. I'm working to create a technology and a culture (ie. business) that will bring this technology to the world. I'd be satisfied with a "empty face" that can understand what people have to say and respond in a scripted way in a very limited context. Let the next bright kid figure out how to make it "alive". (but I do have some ideas!) Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:03:11 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Just a thought in passing Robert and Psyberians >Are we measuring this *reality* with a fifteenth (or nineteenth) century >mindframe? Perhaps our attempts to *define* this communicative adventure are >inappropriate and we should be allowing ourselves an experiential >understanding until a new vocabulary arises. What about a few suggestions: From To Define Investigate Uni-verse Multi-verse Explanation Many descriptions Opinion One form of life Idea Doing Feelings Effects in relationships Best regards Jurek _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:53:32 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Here I go again.. Dear all that can be bothered.. Following the initial post in which I introduced myself to you and was proclaimed the Devil incarnate, amongst other things, (I believe rabid amazonian sloth) was one of them, several things have occoured. These have all been off list, because the lurkers of which I was one, lurk not silently but like shadow. They follow our movements precisely, they lurk at our heels and they contribute by seemingly not being there, yet they they are with us all the time its just you dont often get to see them until certain conditions prevail. Anyway, my post seemed to shed enough light to make certain shadowy lurkers slightly more substantial and I recieved mucho email - it was to these people that I gave a detailed reason as to what had motivated me to send the post in the first place. (Details available on request. Send S.A.E and a cheque for $30 made payable to the Satanic church of the cosmic banana) What I learnt from all this, and believe me I learnt a lot, is that I dont have to feel stupid because I dont understand the technical jargon being bandied about. I rejoice in my lack of education these days...actually since I joined this list. This list taught me alot in a very short time. I have benefited because because I think Education teaches you a certain way of thinking, a way that is to all intents and purposes not natural. It stifles the imagination, makes you pull things to bits and analyse them, until you cant write a poem without thinking of the structure or how clever or impressive the word is your about to insert. I proudly admit to not knowing the meanings of half the words that I scratch into prose when I write, all I know is the nature of them, not the exact meaning, and as for being able to spell them..well theres always spell check. (except in email which is a pain) And what nearly all the lurkers said to me.. was that they found the posts dry, colourless and without imagination, academic posturing. What I meant when I said by words for words sake. A couple said they were shy of expressing an opinion, when they couldnt use words of more than 9 syllables..that because they couldnt write a la mode academic and they were scared of being ridiculed because they couldnt dress their words up in the same educated language, yet found what was being discussed interesting if not a little dry. They wanted to contribute..just didnt they could. So I put my head on the chopping block again..lurkers post and be damned.. or admired, or flamed, accademics try to be more understandable...more human, less educated in some respects, because there are some of us out here that dont have degrees. It doesnt make us less intelligent, we still walk the walk though we dont talk the talk. Actually some of us walk it a little better in some areas because we dont have the weight of letters dragging behind us. To sum up what I have come to understand in all this.. a comment by one of the lurkers.. who really should post and I wish they would, because if what they wrote to me is anything to go by their erudite/imaginative/incisive/humourous observations are well worth looking at (How do you spell sycophantic?) "I've become firmly convinced that formal education is to get you from point A to point B (i.e. it gets you the degree to follow your career goals) but true learning and knowledge is a solitary journey, done on the side lines of "real" education." And Im going to pose a question too.. What does the net do for the imagination.?. a commodity little utilised by some and greatly undervalued by others. Yet very important here. (If I mention netsex again you'll start thinking I am obsessed with it) I believe the net teaches us to use it differently..see it a different way. This is a place ich with pictures, the pictures here exist in our heads, every post is another picture in the psybernet gallery.. but unlike other text mediums this one is interactive.. and I dont think that occours any where else in quite the same way. Dolores P.S (private message follows) Thank you, for finally convincing me that what I have is more important than what I lack. There is no such thing as coincidence. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:20:08 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Here I go again.. At 11:53 PM 4/9/96 +0100, you wrote: >Dear all that can be bothered.. > OK, I'll let you bother me! >Following the initial post in which I introduced myself to you and was >proclaimed the Devil incarnate, Hey, that was just a nomination! amongst other things, (I believe rabid >amazonian sloth) was one of them, several things have occoured. >These have all been off list, because the lurkers of which I was one, lurk >not silently but like shadow. They follow our movements precisely, they lurk >at our heels and they contribute by seemingly not being there, yet they they >are with us all the time its just you dont often get to see them until >certain conditions prevail. > Yeah, don't you just HATE that? ;-) >Anyway, my post seemed to shed enough light to make certain shadowy lurkers >slightly more substantial and I recieved mucho email - it was to these >people that I gave a detailed reason as to what had motivated me to send the >post in the first place. >(Details available on request. Send S.A.E and a cheque for $30 made payable >to the Satanic church of the cosmic banana) > Is that Canadian or US? >What I learnt from all this, and believe me I learnt a lot, is that I dont >have to feel stupid because I dont understand the technical jargon being >bandied about. Hey, I'm a bithead, you're supposed to bow down when you don't understand the lingo! >I rejoice in my lack of education these days... I'm not educated, just smart! >actually since I joined this list. This list taught me alot in a very short time. I have >benefited because because I think Education teaches you a certain way of >thinking, a way that is to all intents and purposes not natural. It stifles >the imagination, makes you pull things to bits and analyse them, until you >cant write a poem without thinking of the structure or how clever or >impressive the word is your about to insert. I agree. I quit college in the second year because I wasn't learning anything. In my freshman year I was taking (actually skipping and getting A's) graduate Math courses.. Yet the college wouldn't even let me get an Associate degree in Math, they claimed that I couldn't go back and do the courses that I had skipped, and they didn't have enough credits in the rest of the Math department for me to even get a AA degree. >I proudly admit to not knowing the meanings of half the words that I scratch into prose when I write, all I >know is the nature of them, Hmm.. perhaps subconsiously you do know the meaning. You haven't picked any words that I would say don't fit, or perhaps you are writing like an "American" idomatically? (private joke, sorry!) >not the exact meaning, and as for being able to spell them..well theres always spell check. >(except in email which is a pain) I can't remember all of the time that I wasted on spelling tests... > >And what nearly all the lurkers said to me.. was that they found the posts >dry, colourless and without imagination, academic posturing. What I meant >when I said by words for words sake. A couple said they were shy of >expressing an opinion, when they couldnt use words of more than 9 >syllables..that because they couldnt write a la mode academic and they were >scared of being ridiculed because they couldnt dress their words up in the >same educated language, yet found what was being discussed interesting if >not a little dry. They wanted to contribute..just didnt they could. > >So I put my head on the chopping block again..lurkers post and be damned.. >or admired, or flamed, accademics try to be more understandable...more >human, less educated in some respects, because there are some of us out here >that dont have degrees. It doesnt make us less intelligent, we still walk >the walk though we dont talk the talk. Actually some of us walk it a little >better in some areas because we dont have the weight of letters dragging >behind us. Cute.. > >To sum up what I have come to understand in all this.. a comment by one of >the lurkers.. who really should post and I wish they would, because if what >they wrote to me is anything to go by their >erudite/imaginative/incisive/humourous observations are well worth looking >at (How do you spell sycophantic?) > >"I've become firmly convinced that formal education is to get you from point >A to point B (i.e. it gets you the degree to follow your career goals) but >true learning and knowledge is a solitary journey, done on the side lines of >"real" education." > When I asked my mother what to do about the boring, lousy teachers that I had from time to time, she told me that my education was my responsibility. If I had a good teacher I would benifit, but if I had a bad teacher, I was the one that would suffer because I didn't know something. I accepted that responsibility a long time ago, and it actually got in the way of my formal education. It's hard to sit in a class when you figure out the entire class in the first 5 minutes. It's even harder when the professor doesn't let you answer any of the questions because he knows that you know the answer. I was lucky enough to have a few teachers that knew my predicament, and could handle it, but I also had a lot of teachers, (professors also), that were threathened by my mental abilities, and I suffered as a result. 15 years later, I wouldn't have changed anything, but at the time I felt like a bona-fide freak because I learned so fast and easily. I was actually told that I didn't fit in because I'm smart! >And Im going to pose a question too.. What does the net do for the >imagination.?. Depending on how well you type, it set's it free. > a commodity little utilised by some and greatly undervalued by others. Yet very important here. >(If I mention netsex again you'll start thinking I am obsessed with it) Like we don't already? (Vicki, I got your message, I'm ignoring it, too hot!) >I believe the net teaches us to use it differently.. NetSex or Imagination? >see it a different way. I'm not touching that! >This is a place ich with pictures, Itch? or Rich? But anyway, not if the US Government can help it! >the pictures here exist in our heads, every post is another picture in the >psybernet gallery.. Want to see my etchings? >but unlike other text mediums this one is interactive.. >and I dont think that occours any where else in quite the same way. I've never seen it anywhere like in this list! >P.S (private message follows) > >Thank you, for finally convincing me that what I have is more important than >what I lack. There is no such thing as coincidence. PS. SuperTramp's greatest hits make a great background to this! --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 19:14:23 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Why Lists Can Hurt Ouch! Here's something we can say about mailing lists, I think: mailing lists allow us to find and join "neighborhoods of the like-minded". That's incredible. There's nothing like it. And I believe it makes us (many of us) incredibly excited to join lists that sound as though they'd be of interest to us. Other people who share our concerns... out there, somewhere in Alaska or Australia, Istambul or Munich... what a draw... Add to that the fact that -- as others have pointed out -- our weight, sex, racial coloration, financial and social status and so forth are unannounced, so that we are taken at mind- and heart-value rather than at face-value... ...and you have an extraordinary possibility for communication... * So there's an excitement, and we join a list... Here's the problem: mailing lists are places where we can join in conversations we wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to have -- but the price is that we also overhear conversations we wouldn't ordinarily wish to join. Largely, it's a matter of language. All of us talk in *code*. The code may be widely known, purely local, restricted to scholars in a particular discipline or devotees of a particular religion... whatever: but it's still code. It's a kind of shorthand. Americans mostly understand "baseball" code, but I don't. I know what "coming out of left field" means in the sense of making a comment that's based on strange and unexpected assumptions -- but I haven't the faintest idea why "left field" in baseball terms should be equated with strange ideas, and if someone refers in passing to the "Knicks", I'm not surre whether it's baseball or some other sport they're talking about. Even though I live in California, and have been in the States for twenty some years, I'm an Englishman, and any talk of baseball is a "googlie" as far as I'm concerned (that's a cricketing term: perhaps roughly comparable to "out of left field"). Madonna -- would that be the Blessed Mary Ever Virgin, or a pop star? It depends on who's doing the talking. But in either case, those who speak the same code can gather a whole lot from a brief reference, while others will be totally bewildered. Psych talk can be the same kind of thing. "INFP", I wrote in a private post to Walter today, confident that as someone interested in Jung's system of personality types he would understand I meant "introspective intuitive feeling perceiver" -- and that *that *in turn meant someone whose inner world is more real to them than the outer, who works on hunches and may be vague on the details of practical living, who assesses things by how they feel rather than how much sense they make, and who likes to leave things open-ended rather than coming to some kind of closure... That's a pretty dense-packed code, four letters to say what translates out into 65 words... and I'm pretty sure Walter will "get" it... But if he writes back, "Sure, I'm a typical Aries myself", I won't have the first clue... And the same goes for scholarly talk. For scholars, it's a convenient shorthand. A word like "Nietzschean" can speak volumes... But it can look daunting if you don't speak that code -- as daunting as astrology talk, or baseball shorthand... * And when we join a list, we come across some conversations that we *very much* want to have, mixed in with some that are *daunting in the extreme*... * One last thing. A mailing list is a place where those who enjoy writing and are good at it (but are also overweight, or the "wrong" color or sex, or "too young to be believed", or "too old to be worth bothering with") can shine. Sometimes that means plain and simple writing. Sometimes that means writing with raw feeling, all nerves exposed. Sometimes that means poetry. And sometimes it means real scholarship. Some readers pick up books by Robertson Davies. Some prefer Bukofski. Some love Rilke. And some read Norman O Brown. On a list such as this, you will likely run across some of each. Please don't be daunted by any of the codes or styles. Please don't get mad because you overhear people talking in codes or styles that aren't your own. Please join i the conversations that interest you, in your own code and style. Please write. I've gone overboard, I've hung out enough of my passions to feel both a little vulnerable, and a little proud. Please let me know what you think. Best wishes, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/index.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:58:04 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "sfuze@tiac.net" Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls. In-Reply-To: <960409145921_509435816@emout06.mail.aol.com> > >I have to agree that mascara and the wonderbra are great inventions, but I > >think that women should only be allowed to wear them on alternate rainy > >Wednesday's.. > >Otherwise, women look too cute all the time, we males are constantly > >overstimulated, and consequently we're categorized as nothing but animals > >with no control... Or you stop actually noticing (the more likely scenario). Too much of a good thing is never good... Kyra. (with the non-intro) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:05:42 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "sfuze@tiac.net" Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. In-Reply-To: One way to look at this is as Moyer's "Many Minds" hypothesis -- that we really are made of many different parts, with Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD) being at the end of the spectrum (an inability to communicate with oneself? An inability to reconcile different aspects to form a single unified being?), and Schizophrenia perhaps at the further left end (an inability to form cohesive parts of oneself in a comprehensive manner), and the "normal" (I scoff at that term, that "normal") somewhere in the middle... Replete with many parts of ourselves which we can trade off (mother, teacher, businesswoman, friend, chess-lover, etc etc etc) as our needs fit... However alot of times we have a difficult time not changing those personas to fit what the other person expects us to be. With the online world, we have the opportunity to explore facets of ourselves without having to stress about how two possibly incontrovertible beliefs might coexist. IMHO, of course. Are we only truly ourselves when noone else is around? (If a tree falls in the forest and there's noone around, does it make a sound?) Yours, Kyra. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:58:45 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Varieties of CyberPsych In-Reply-To: Robert, > It's a little late (time has passed since your post containing the > following words) but I want to reply to you anyways. Never too late. > In the post I had written prior to yours, I spoke of tolerance. Here > you speak of going beyond that, to an embracing of them. Words with import, > words that make me pause and then agree. I have followed the posts since my > last message. Several posts by XMeff@AOL.COM (John) grated. I felt the > desire to rebut his remarks and to delete posts with his signature, but I > didn't. Taking a time out to question my own reaction to his words spoke > about me and not him. For that, I give thanks that he has become a vocal > member of the Psyberian community. As you said "welcome them". Looking at this again -- I still say that. However the welcomes can include speaking our mind, our feelings, or even simply ignoring. I have in mind too what you are doing -- looking at our own reaction. I am seeing how easily my words could be read to mean something sugary and unreal. I was responding to this "kicking off" stuff. The art is to find a way to be with the variety. A way that honours your own reactions and reflections. back to rl, Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:20:51 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . . Mila, I said: >>Language is a lie and actions speak louder than words. You replied: >So you're using lies to comm with us? -snip- >Mind to show us a really *silent* person via pure e-mail?? I'm not sure what connotations you may have applied to the first part of my statement. Let me clarify that when I say "lie" I am not referring to right or wrong. I am not making a reference to a moral universe. Realize also that I am not disparaging language. It is a great gift. But, action goes straight to the heart. For instance, an act of love speaks much bolder than a simply repeated, "I love you." There is nothing to lose, Mila. Ultimately, my concerns do not lie with who is more right, but whether we are communicating. I know if I'm wrong then I'll have learned something from our interaction. To me, communicating means that we are connecting on some level. It is not simply relaying a message or reacting to a stimulus. If a thermometer reads 98.6 degrees F. then are you and the thermometer communicating? When I look at the larger picture of the happenings surrounding Psybernet, I cannot deal with our subject in isolation. I've been reading Jurek's messages. I haven't responded to any, perhaps because I wasn't confident in my own ability to communicate. But, I find that his points of view have led me to ponder. Jurek mentioned the role of context in conveying meaning. I agree, context is crucial in reformulating meaning (if I understand Jurek correctly). Perhaps, one should consider the context of the statements within a message. Understand that I'm referring to words simply as representations. As has been mentioned before, a word cannot fully capture the essence of an experience. Think also that, representations can be shown in such a way that what has not happened can be presented as if it had. Have you ever read a work of fiction that is believable? Can someone fake a love letter? I'm going to stray a bit from words and bring a different example into the picture. Think about computer animation. Here seeing is believing. Through the effects of lighting, movement and behavior, an imaginary creature can appear as though existing in the real world. Does this help to convey what I was trying to say? Does what I'm trying to convey make sense? Is it believable? Do you find it acceptable? John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:20:55 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . . You said: >Are you talking about the AP bit that was on CNN a couple of >weeks ago? I distinctly remember seeing the researcher executing routines to mimic facial gestures. One was a grimace. I don't recall the source. >>Apparently, this researcher is using a computer interface to >>mimic mood and emotion on a computer-animated visage. >There are several people doing just this sort of thing.. If >there is interest I can provide links to Web sites.. Now that I thought about it, Wilber, are you attempting a variation on a theme? Or, did I read that your goal lies in another direction? A fulfillment of an age-old quest. The happiness of any visionary, to see his dream achieve reality. In this case, there are many dreamers dreaming the dream. It is enough for me to hear and talk about it, here in this space. I am afraid I would spend much time going down that road (surfing). Thanks, anyway. >I think that Language translation is definately going to be a >target market, but not the primary one for quite a while. In retrospect, I have to step back and agree with you. What generation of A.I. are we dealing with these days? >I think that there are significant differences between the >Japanese usage of language and the American usage of >language. I've done Judo since I was seven and over the years >the difference between the Japanese people that I've met and >the American's that I've met has lead me to believe that the >Japanese have a more "Iconic" or singular connection to >language. Japanese as a language is more object oriented, and >I would imagine, as a result, their thinking would be more >object oriented. (ie, symbolic). Here I will remain silent though I could venture my understanding. You see, I am part Japanese. >I would imagine that the face will solve a lot of language >issues more directly there than here. I would argue otherwise but see below. >Certainly, Sony and a couple of other Japanese companies >are further along with this technology than we are here in the >US. I have heard the Japanese software industry is critisized as being unimaginative and uncreative. In this industry the U.S. is king. But on the consumer hardware side, the Japanese have some advantage, regardless of whether one sees it as marketing ploy or otherwise. Perhaps, we will see the creation of 'technology with a face' from a collaborative effort from both sides of the Pacific, a sort of 'golden spike'. A smile is a smile in any culture that I'm familiar with. John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:28:06 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . . Walter, You said: >You mean it searches out the mood of the computer and feeds >that back-- like: i am an a good mood because i have a brand >new CD-ROM! >That is scary! I should apply for insurance that covers errors and omissions. John BTW, I appreciated the structure you provided with the summary. Helps me keep track of what topics have surfaced. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:25:54 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . . In-Reply-To: <1.5.4b12.32.19960409054618.00d5c408@monmouth.com> Wilbur, > There are several people doing just this sort of thing.. If there is > interest I can provide links to Web sites.. Please send them up! walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:52:00 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. Kyra (and company - hello to the silent ones), Kyra, I must admit that I got a little lost in the intro talking about "Many Minds" by Moyer (alliteration!) since I haven't been reading or studying in that direction. However, I did get a sense of your offering as I read: K>Replete with many parts of ourselves which we can trade off (mother, K>teacher, businesswoman, friend, chess-lover, etc etc etc) as our needs K>fit... However alot of times we have a difficult time not changing those K>personas to fit what the other person expects us to be. We do have many roles, many minds, many faces of ourself with which to contend and to know. Compatiblity and relationship suggests that we allow many faces to come to the fore so that we can know each other more deeply. K>With the online world, we have the opportunity to explore facets of K>ourselves without having to stress about how two possibly K>incontrovertible beliefs might coexist. If they exist, they aren't incontrovertible. They share the same space. It might be that we just don't hear fully both of the ideas/beliefs? Perhaps when they are follwed to their roots we'll find that they are indeed kin. >Are we only truly ourselves when no one else is around? (If a tree falls >in the forest and there's no one around, does it make a sound?) Here in Psyberia, the answer is yes. The lurkers hear. Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:52:08 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Here I go again.. Dear consortium of hot and bothered, I couldn't resist it. Mea culpa! To open with a line like that when people are listening? Dolores, what do those lurlers say? D>These have all been off list, because the lurkers of which I was one, D>lurk not silently but like shadow. They follow our movements precisely, D>they lurk at our heels and they contribute by seemingly not being there, D>yet they are with us all the time its just you dont often get to see them D>until certain conditions prevail. And how do they read our moments of silence? I know that the words we speak have an audience even if no one answers and acknowledges the fact that I spoke. Thats the hard part here, speaking and not hearing an echo, not receiving affirmation. Yet there are those out there who hear me, those who nod their heads in agreement or offer a snide comeback for some comment I made. D>What I learnt from all this, and believe me I learnt a lot, is that I D>don't have to feel stupid because I dont understand the technical jargon D>being bandied about. I rejoice in my lack of education these D>days...actually since I joined this list. Score one for the lurkers, a good one. I wish that we had been able to re-affirm your worth up front, believe me when I say that you are needed here (and not as a she-devil). As for lack of education, as a teacher I know that schooling does not an education make. I wonder why you would rejoice at a *lack*? For me a lack of knowledge (a real education) is a lack of self-power, self knowledge. I'm hungry for more, more, more! D>A couple said they were shy of expressing an opinion, when they couldn't D>use words of more than 9 syllables..that because they couldnt write a la D>mode academic and they were scared of being ridiculed because they D>couldn't dress their words up in the same educated language, yet found D>what was being discussed interesting if not a little dry. They wanted to D>contribute..just didnt they could. Finding the courage to speak on a listserv is daunting. Knowing that there are at least 100 silent listeners who weigh all that one says besides the experts with whom one tries to share some space makes it even harder. Sometimes one needs to bury the fear in big words, the bigger they are the less chance that someone will call you a charlatan. Simple words require conviction and wisdom. D>And Im going to pose a question too.. What does the net do for the D>imagination.?. a commodity little utilised by some and greatly D>undervalued by others. Yet very important here. (If I mention netsex D>again you'll start thinking I am obsessed with it) I believe the net D>teaches us to use it differently..see it a different way. Imagination? First, I start to build. I hear voices, voices that speak almost in tongues here on Psyber-L (jargon?). From these voices and from their words, I envision souls in a swirling dance of communion and courtship. As for the nature of the developing relationships, sex is indeed a component. Every dialogue that is authentic that builds relationships is sexual in nature. Check out Thomas Moore's book _Soul Mates_ and the discussion about this topic. Here in Psyberia we are different, we must be different as we leave all those other attributes which serve to define us and must rely on our voices accented with our years of schooling, years of isolation from the others we meet here. D>>pictures here exist in our heads, every post is another picture in the D>psybernet gallery.. but unlike other text mediums this one is D>interactive..and I dont think that occours any where else in quite the D>same way. Hmm-mm-mn? Pictures in my head? I find that I'm avoiding pictures and trusting to my heart, to my intuition. Perhaps we find auras easier to see here in Psyberia. Here there are not so *new age*, so tainted with mysticism and magic. Here they are the norm. Oh lord, now what have I said? Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:45:03 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . . >I distinctly remember seeing the researcher executing routines to mimic >facial gestures. One was a grimace. I don't recall the source. > I have some MPEG clips.. I believe you were looking at the animated robot that has 6 emotions.. >Now that I thought about it, Wilber, are you attempting a variation on a >theme? There's more than one person working on this. I believe that I have the software skills and the Corporate Systems knowledge to be able to make this happen in a commercial setting. First things first, I want to get a face animated and able to understand English, along with speech recognition, and the ability to look you in the eye, running on a PC. >Or, did I read that your goal lies in another direction? A fulfillment >of an age-old quest. It's not a new theme. The "Wizard of Oz" comes to mind. >The happiness of any visionary, to see his dream achieve reality. That's what I'm hoping. So far, whenever I've wanted to make something happen in software, I've been able to do it. If I don't succeed, this would be a first. >In this case, there are many dreamers dreaming the dream. I certainly hope so. I think that I have the basic's worked out, but there are going to be more applications created for this interface than were ever created for Windows. > >>I think that Language translation is definately going to be a >target >market, but not the primary one for quite a while. > >In retrospect, I have to step back and agree with you. What generation of >A.I. are we dealing with these days? > >>I think that there are significant differences between the >Japanese usage >of language and the American usage of >language. I've done Judo since I was >seven and over the years >the difference between the Japanese people that >I've met and >the American's that I've met has lead me to believe that the >>Japanese have a more "Iconic" or singular connection to >language. Japanese >as a language is more object oriented, and >I would imagine, as a result, >their thinking would be more >object oriented. (ie, symbolic). > >Here I will remain silent though I could venture my understanding. You see, >I am part Japanese. > One of the factors that I think goes along with this is the difficulting in typing Japanese into a computer. From what I understand, the keyboard is not a easy to use in Japanese as it is in English, at least that was my impression from my tours of Nikko securities and the discussions that I had with the executives there. >>I would imagine that the face will solve a lot of language >issues more >directly there than here. > >I would argue otherwise but see below. > I'm interested in what you see as the downside... >>Certainly, Sony and a couple of other Japanese companies >>are further along with this technology than we are here in the >US. > >I have heard the Japanese software industry is critisized as being >unimaginative and uncreative. In this industry the U.S. is king. But on the >consumer hardware side, the Japanese have some advantage, regardless of >whether one sees it as marketing ploy or otherwise. Perhaps, we will see the >creation of 'technology with a face' from a collaborative effort from both >sides of the Pacific, a sort of 'golden spike'. > I'm not familar with the metaphore "golden spike" but I do agree that there will be some level of collaboration. I would imagine that the face will eventually speak the language of each of the major markets and will be culturally correct for each of the markets. I've had a people tell me that I should use a woman's face as the first interface, but I want to use my own first. (Artist self-portrait metaphore here..) Plus if it has my face on it, there is very little chance that anyone will think that someone else is responsible .. I've done enough work that other's have taken credit for. >A smile is a smile in any culture that I'm familiar with. > I certainly hope so! ;-) Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:45:07 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Facial Animation Links.. Just a few that I've collected.. The best site is Michael Cohen's at UCSC http://mambo.ucsc.edu/psl/fan.html There are a lot of links there to a lot of other sites.. plus movies, GIF's, etc. A discussion of making the computer more human.. To anthropomorphize or not? http://gsusgi2.gsu.edu/~matjmm/agents/ia_anth.html Then of course there's Interface Agents.. http://gsusgi2.gsu.edu/~matjmm/agents/agents.html The Center for human modeling ... http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~hms/ And a site that I just found, seems interesting, "Facial Animation Overview" http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~sking/FacialAnimation.html and a couple of guys doing an anatomically correct model of the face.. http://zorro.ruca.ua.ac.be/%7Eoverberc/alive/xplorer/ And some work at Sony by Katashi Nagao http://www.csl.sony.co.jp/person/nagao.html Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:38:59 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe.. Vicki, So are you still on the PSYBER-L listserv? What do you think about what has been going on there? Wilbur At 08:51 AM 4/2/96 -0600, you wrote: >Wilbur, > >>I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv >>groups.. > >Don't unsub yet! I joined for the same reason. I'm sure we're not the >only ones. > >Vicki > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:05:15 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. From a dialog Robert <=> Jurek on Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:28 -0600: Jurek: >Maybe the lurkers are more to inner dialog that to outer dialog? Robert: Their existence and our knowledge of their presence almosts forces us to be more authentic. Glib and false messages will result in being flamed or worse, ignored. Mila: Maybe we've different models of what's going on "behind the screen". Per def. lurkers keep ignoring every msg, as far as the sender expecting responses is concerned. Flame throwers have ceased to lurk; they are avai- lable for being entangled in a dialog, eventually uncovering the big pains leading to their (potentially self-)destructive attitudes and responses. In this model, authenticity of msgs in the eyes of the responders only. For anyone lurking here, the dialogs s/he's watching resemble a podium discussion giving her/him a chance to develop. In this sense, a list is the primary form of a seminar - a sowing device Responses are like seedlings - dialogs are loving acts of gardening (perhaps each other)... Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:34:37 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: josh on Subject: A friend goes digital I came home early tonight feeling a little ill. The first thing I did was check my email, I have been enjoying the influx of activity on Psybernet recently and have been considering writing again after having a year or so off. First however I scanned my inbox for personal mail ( I still don't have anyway of doing this automatically and am getting damn tempted to learn some code and write something myself!) and saw that there was a mail from a great friend here in London. I met him a few months back in a club here. He looked cool, ie I figured he was into the same shit that I am, so I introduced myself and we have been hanging out quite a bit since. Today's mail was a bummer, not his usual witty banter about ideas for future events etc, but a quick note to say that he was deported back to the States. It was really depressing, I realised that he had been a big part of my plans for Summertime, thoughts of throwing parties and having picnics or whatever. Now we are confined to email. It really hit home about the difference between life on and offline. We can't play frisbee here, we can be witty and stuff but we can't play outside. Well all this is pretty obvious really, I don't think that anyone is arguing that the net should be a substitute for anything, but still now it will become the medium through which my time spent with him is bottlenecked. From analogue to digital. (unless life is digital which it might be in which case I guess it will be from DIGITAL to digital, like that crappy watch I bought in Portobello). It will be interesting to see how the relationship changes... Summer will be different now, a little bit more of it will be spent inside, but not much more! _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:34:44 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: josh on Subject: Re: Here I go again.. >Dear all that can be bothered.. That's me I guess! I said "I can't be bothered " to an American woman last year and she scoulded me for being so rude. It was just something small and I thought that she was over-reacting but she claimed that where she came from (Washington DC) it was one of the most obnoxious things you could say. Where I come from (New Zealand/Aotearoa) while it is rude, it is also a fairly commonplace expression. Your introduction may well have been a much stronger challenge to those in the USA to those in the Antipodes. Language is scary like that. Dolores wrote: >And what nearly all the lurkers said to me.. was that they found the posts >dry, colourless and without imagination, academic posturing. What I meant >when I said by words for words sake. A couple said they were shy of >expressing an opinion, when they couldnt use words of more than 9 >syllables..that because they couldnt write a la mode academic and they were >scared of being ridiculed because they couldnt dress their words up in the >same educated language, yet found what was being discussed interesting if >not a little dry. They wanted to contribute..just didnt they could. Writing can be scary for me. Not scary as in being in the same room as a lion is scary, but just, oh shit I want to get this right. Some of this fear is constructive . It censors some otherwise unconsidered spiel I might go on in some self indulgent state. But some of it is a hinderence. Some of this hindering fear comes form my own self expectations and some comes from the expectations that I imagine others to have. When you write about academic posturing, I get a little more scared. I don't want to be some high brow wanker (fat chance of pulling it off anyway!) who flirts with the language rather than grappling with its contents. But then, why not? One of the best lessons of the academics and I think popular figures of our time is that surfaces are important. We can judge a book by its cover, its best if you tell people that that is how you judged it but that is a valid thing to do. Posing and posturing is cool. I like it. The miscarra, the cod-pieces, the jargon it is all rad as fuck, cool as shit, and real. You can't hide reality. Whatever is "hiding" it is real too, and must in some way relate to the reality. I don't think I can be bothered getting to hung up on expressing my real selves, I am to busy trying express fake ones, but I just never seem to manage. Oh god did that sound pretentcious... whoops I'm getting scared again. There is a "the The" lyric which goes "I'm trying so hard to be myself, that I have become someone else" or something like that I lost my copy... Anyway I would propose that "I'm trying so hard to be someone else, I'm becoming myself" is equally profound and true and probably a more profitable enterprise to be in. Think of all those happy Elvis impersonators! And Dolores continued: >So I put my head on the chopping block again..lurkers post and be damned.. >or admired, or flamed, Of course! Yeah and posters try lurking for a change... nah what am I saying? Us people we do what we do... >accademics try to be more understandable...more >human, less educated in some respects, because there are some of us out here I hope we all keep posing and posturing as much as is required. If I don't understand something than I will ask you to clarify it if I can be bothered that is. >that dont have degrees. It doesnt make us less intelligent, we still walk >the walk though we dont talk the talk. Actually some of us walk it a little >better in some areas because we dont have the weight of letters dragging >behind us. Too true. But it took three years of academic agony (and pleasure) to work out why it was that academic thought was so restrictive. It really can't be so neatly bundled together so neatly of course. If for no other reason than being able to coherently argue against the validity of traditional diametrically oppossed argumentative structures was learning some thing of those structures worth it. If you get my drift. fuck flirtatious filandering, figure I can't be bothered anymore so I am going to sleep. But to be sure I will be bothered to read tomorrows installment in the ongoing saga of our psyber lives. Thank you all Josh On. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 05:16:13 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Guy Fielding <100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Some reflections Hullo: I've been reading the discussions (kindof a more neutral term than "lurking") on Psyber-L for about a week to 10 days now, and have been prompted to put some of my own ideas into the conversational "pot" by Walter's recent summary. Not sure of the value of these ideas and observations, and I suspect that they will address the concerns of people like Wilbur Streett and Vicki Colker more than some other participants in this extended conversation. Here's some comments prompted by Wilbur's First Theme: From Wilbur's summary: * Varieties of metaphor of where we are -- a theatre -- on a hot tin truth -- whispering in corners behind palms. >>One of the assumptions we seem to make is that face-to-face conversation is *not* a medium of conversation, that is, it is somehow a pure and undistorting "conduit" for meanings to flow (or in which they can be created). By extension, we assume that all other media are somehow distorting, usually in the sense of being inadequate in some respect as compared with face-to-face conversation (eg Wilbur's concern with bringing the face back to cmc). I think we need to recognise that all communication is mediated, and that the media constrain and amplify particular possibilities of communication, and this applies to both the richest (ie broadest bandwidth communication) and the poorest (eg icons) One of the implications of this is that each medium can be thought of as constituting a "situation" for communication, with each situation having its own ground rules, limitations and potentialities. eg communicating by letter isn't better or worse than communicating by telephone, its different, and good communication consists of understanding the fit between the medium and particular purposes, topics, audiences, and indeed senders. Anyone who believes that a particular medium (eg emailed disussion lists) is "the best medium" is deluded. (This is sounding polemical; sorry!!) There's an extension of this idea. That is, that much of the "definition of the situation" isn't determined by the objective nature of the medium, but by the metaphors we have. A simple example is that a building can be "defined" as a church, in which case certain kinds of conversations are priveleged, and others are taboo, and even particular ways of holding those conversations are promoted eg speaking in hushed tones, avoidance of raucous laughter. But the same building can be defined as, say, a pub (and here in the UK there are lots of abandoned churches which have been turned over to such purposes) and then a quite different set of rules applies. So the metaphors we apply (often/usually without being aware of what is being done) are powerful determinants of our communication. We then get into the fascinating possibility of creating/applying new metaphors/sets of rules which allow different kinds of communication to take place. And maybe that's what's so exciting about a new medium such as email/lists/cmc?? GUY email: 100044.275@compuserve.com _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:57:13 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . . In-Reply-To: <960410002057_188121489@mail06> John > BTW, I appreciated the structure you provided with the summary. Helps me > keep track of what topics have surfaced. Thanks, I thought of another *topic*: Evolutionary cycle of lists. I did just that, listed topics, but have not attempted to go deeper . . . there is an underlying and universal theme with its own sub groups attached to the various polatities . . . can but see it vaguely. ... Ah! just as I write this Josh posts, and mentions valuing the surfaces -- fair enough. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:27:09 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Some reflections GUY wrote: >There's an extension of this idea. That is, that much of the >"definition of the situation" isn't determined by the objective >nature of the medium, but by the metaphors we have. >So the metaphors we apply (often/usually without being >aware of what is being done) are powerful determinants of our >communication. My agreement here is meant to reinforce Guy's crucial point. As George Lakaff has stated, we also have a tendency to inappropriately map metaphors between different domains and then *act* accordingly. Psyberspace is not immune from this; in many ways, it encourages this kind of catagorical confusion. Also, that we do so both naturally and unconsciously is pertinent both to how such confusion enriches, doesn't cause most people any kind of cognitive disonance, and then may carry on with a life of it's own. Good examples are the constant comparing of f2f with cyberspace and the naming of f2f catagories on an "as if" basis, or the unpacking of "Lurker" as a term representing a monolithic 'other', etc. metaphorically yours, Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:26:13 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . . John, You wrote - in a context fully hidden to me -: >>Language is a lie and actions speak louder than words. You snipped: >>Show me an authentic person and you'll see a silent one. From a pure logical point of view I transformed your statement into a request if I did understand right, giving the example of "actions possible via e-mail" to amplify the point I was up to: >>> So you're using lies to comm with us? Glad to see traces of your typing *ac- tions*, since they speak louder, indeed, than the words they form; they shout: "I'M TYPING, THEREFORE I AM". Mind to show us a really *silent* person via pure e-mail?? <<< Let's step thru the rest of your response: >>> I'm not sure what connotations you may have applied to the first part of my statement. Let me clarify that when I say "lie" I am not referring to right or wrong. I am not making a reference to a moral universe. Realize also that I am not disparaging language. It is a great gift. But, action goes straight to the heart. For instance, an act of love speaks much bolder than a simply repeated, "I love you." <<< As told earlier, I didn't need to apply connotations; I simply mirrored your language to show you how it felt. I agree that action goes straight to the heart - most of the time. Silent lovers can throw you into sickness if they swamp you with actions they "mean" to be acts of love but *never* explain why they act. Remember, too, that silence is used as punishment. >>> There is nothing to lose, Mila. Ultimately, my concerns do not lie with who is more right, but whether we are communicating. I know if I'm wrong then I'll have learned something from our interaction. To me, communicating means that we are connecting on some level. It is not simply relaying a message or reacting to a stimulus. If a thermometer reads 98.6 degrees F. then are you and the thermometer communicating? <<< Here I'm not sure what is meant by "communicating" and "connecting on some level". Thermometers I read cause actions, such as irrigation. Texts I read cause more detailed decision chains resulting in various degrees of delay in response. My personal feeling is simply that they type along in this list without any regard to how their linguistic behavior may feel to others - bursting into explanations instead, if responses don't match expectations. >>> When I look at the larger picture of the happenings surrounding Psybernet, I cannot deal with our subject in isolation. I've been reading Jurek's messages. I haven't responded to any, perhaps because I wasn't confident in my own ability to communicate. But, I find that his points of view have led me to ponder. <<< Which happenings exterior to the list do you allude to? I'm not located in the US, so this wonderful list may have totally different contexts to us. Therefore, I've come to use a minimal context strategy in responding. This entails dealing with the sheer interaction as well. I've got all on hd, so I can reread Jurek's msgs and see in what kind of lan- guage xloud he happens to stick. >>> Jurek mentioned the role of context in conveying meaning. I agree, context is crucial in reformulating meaning (if I understand Jurek correctly). Perhaps, one should consider the context of the statements within a message. Understand that I'm referring to words simply as representations. As has been mentioned before, a word cannot fully capture the essence of an experience. Think also that, representations can be shown in such a way that what has not happened can be presented as if it had. Have you ever read a work of fiction that is believable? Can someone fake a love letter? <<< And this, perhaps, led you to the abbreviature "Language is a lie"? In this context I quite understand, thank you. About fiction and faking: I've done some sci-fi of the hardest kind, sounding believable as well as irrefutable, so I've got to sneer at the carelessness showing up in most of'em productions. Being able to fake warmth in loving letters is like being thrown out of a paradise of being sure - as I can testify. But some called "moral insane" manage to fake body language - and thus whole relationships. If you're strict, gesture language is a representation too - some are able to tell "lies" with. Is an actor a faker of feelings, then?? >>> I'm going to stray a bit from words and bring a different example into the picture. Think about computer animation. Here seeing is believing. Through the effects of lighting, movement and behavior, an imaginary creature can appear as though existing in the real world. Does this help to convey what I was trying to say? Does what I'm trying to convey make sense? Is it believable? Do you find it acceptable? <<< Yes, John - as seen above, I did accept it. But, think of that: It is a long hard way - to the Tipperary of mastering one's own language... All the best, Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:35:17 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Some reflections Guy, I like what you had to say, and I felt even better when you quoted me.. >>From Wilbur's summary: > >* Varieties of metaphor of where we are -- a theatre -- on a hot tin >truth -- whispering in corners behind palms. > But I didn't write that. On the other hand, I agree that the medium is different and brings different possibilities to the forum.. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:52:10 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Tracy Stevens Subject: Re: Here I go again.. At 11:53 PM 4/9/96 +0100, you wrote: >Dear all that can be bothered.. Hiya Horned One! > >Following the initial post in which I introduced myself to you and was >proclaimed the Devil incarnate, Awww man! I wanted to be Lucifer. *sulk* Can I be your evil henchman? Err...henchwoman? > amongst other things, (I believe rabid >amazonian sloth) was one of them, Gee...I would've never guessed you were tall. >several things have occoured. >These have all been off list, because the lurkers of which I was one, lurk >not silently but like shadow. They follow our movements precisely, they lurk >at our heels and they contribute by seemingly not being there, yet they they >are with us all the time its just you dont often get to see them until >certain conditions prevail. Yeah...mass hysteria will do that. Gotta love it! > >Anyway, my post seemed to shed enough light to make certain shadowy lurkers >slightly more substantial and I recieved mucho email - it was to these >people that I gave a detailed reason as to what had motivated me to send the >post in the first place. >(Details available on request. Send S.A.E and a cheque for $30 made payable >to the Satanic church of the cosmic banana) LOL!! Do I get a share of the proceeds if I post to the group? > > >And what nearly all the lurkers said to me.. was that they found the posts >dry, colourless and without imagination, academic posturing. *silent, lurking cheer...hip, hip hooray!* >What I meant >when I said by words for words sake. A couple said they were shy of >expressing an opinion, when they couldnt use words of more than 9 >syllables.. Nah...that's not me...I can fling the verbose words ad nauseum...just don't want to confuse myself in the process. I'm still looking for a good sentence to use the word "epiphany" in....wanna help? >that because they couldnt write a la mode academic and they were >scared of being ridiculed because they couldnt dress their words up in the >same educated language, yet found what was being discussed interesting if >not a little dry. They wanted to contribute..just didnt they could. *shrug* Also not my reasoning. > >So I put my head on the chopping block again..lurkers post and be damned.. >or admired, or flamed, accademics try to be more understandable...more >human, less educated in some respects, because there are some of us out here >that dont have degrees. It doesnt make us less intelligent, we still walk >the walk though we dont talk the talk. Actually some of us walk it a little >better in some areas because we dont have the weight of letters dragging >behind us. Wow...good metaphor hon, I'm picturing this guy pulling a bunch of HUGE letters tied to a rope across his back...sorta like Tantalus in the Greek Myths? > >To sum up what I have come to understand in all this.. a comment by one of >the lurkers.. who really should post and I wish they would, because if what >they wrote to me is anything to go by their >erudite/imaginative/incisive/humourous observations are well worth looking >at (How do you spell sycophantic?) NO NO NO!!! Epiphany is bad enough...don't throw sycophantic out there and make me look it up in the dictionary....let alone USE it in a sentence. You cannot be a word I don't understand. *wry grin* > >"I've become firmly convinced that formal education is to get you from point >A to point B (i.e. it gets you the degree to follow your career goals) but >true learning and knowledge is a solitary journey, done on the side lines of >"real" education." Ohhhh...you are evil incarnate...using my own words against me...man...such a pro! *wink* > >And Im going to pose a question too.. What does the net do for the >imagination.?. a commodity little utilised by some and greatly undervalued >by others. Yet very important here. (If I mention netsex again you'll start >thinking I am obsessed with it) I won't...but why do I have this vague, unfounded fear that Robert might? *sly grin* >I believe the net teaches us to use it >differently..see it a different way. This is a place ich with pictures, the >pictures here exist in our heads, every post is another picture in the >psybernet gallery.. but unlike other text mediums this one is interactive.. >and I dont think that occours any where else in quite the same way. Here here...I'll second that. Oh...btw...the honest reason I don't post? I get on the average 15-20 emails a day...and I have this strange feeling of responsibility to people, I always try to respond, even if it's just a brief, "Busy, can't respond...get back to ya later". Well, I'm fairly certain if I post to this list...I'll be inundated with flames...and I'll want to answer them ALL. No one has the time to write that many emails....unless they type like a 100 wpm, and boy o boy..that ain't ME. So I'll stick to doing a few behind the scenes emails to the key people I admire...such as yourself. It's easier on the fingers. *grin* Keep it up Delores...this is getting fun. Cya, Trace AKA Your Politically-Correct-Yet-Fiendish-Henchwoman >Thank you, for finally convincing me that what I have is more important than >what I lack. There is no such thing as coincidence. Right on! Gotta love a little daily synchronicity to spice up life. > ======================================================== "I wish a robot would get elected president. That way, when he came to town, we could all take a shot at him and not feel too bad." --Jack Handey, Deep Thoughts ======================================================== Tracy Stevens hetaira@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~hetaira/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:06:48 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Susan Z. Swan" Subject: codes, contexts, dialogues, and netsex Compatriots--After a few days away, I've spent the past few hours around the kitchen table with you, catching up and reflecting on the threadswoven around the conversation here. My musings here are more a synthesis after reading many postings (in part because my e-mail system won't let me quote you directly electronically--or maybe my human system doesn't know enough about how to do it yet...). Walter-I appreciated your listing of threads--how interesting to see the separate, yet linked conversations that have gone on. Charles' discussion of codes was beautiful. (Thanks for risking being vulnerable here, Charles.) His posting was rich with examples and led me to wonder whether list conversations, because they potentially bring in a wider range of coders and hence codes than we typically meet in our face-to-face interactions, might lead us to create/construct codes which might be more inclusive and tolerant of one another. We each serve as teachers/mentors to one another in offering new codes, new metaphors, new contexts--and go away richer for it. Jurek's consideration of context made me think of works by Kenneth Burke--Burke talks about words as being shorthand for a context, for the fuller drama of an action within a situation. Words thus can be labels for a whole complex of action, motion, emotion--and may capture different aspects of the same scene depending on our perspective. Metaphors, as presented by Aristotle lo those many centuries ago, were a way of moving an audience from what is known to what is unknown--it was a way not just of dressing up the "short, sweet" true content of a message, but a way of creating new reality--a logic not based in formal structure, but in moving together from one place into a new place altogether. One of the tricks is finding the "knowns" that can act as the bridges to unknowns--this is of critical note when we all come from different knowns (just look at all the different places we hail from as a reflection of one set of knowns--Bonn, Germany; New Zealand; London; Texas, Colorado, South Dakota, USA; etc) and want to take one another not only into our particular known (an unknown to many others), but to take us all into an unexplored and unknown realm. Connection does seem to be a part of this. I think the struggle with moving from the know of F-T-F into technically mediated interactions is part of what we are collectively trying to figure out here. It takes Goffman's work on face-work into a new context. Maybe part of the struggle is wrapping our minds around a connected non-connected interaction. What does that look like? I've done some work in a somewhat more connected situation which might give us more to think about. I taught a class last term (Sept. through December) that was "networked;" in other words, it was taught in multiple sites. I was in Vermillion with 10 students and had 50 other students divided between classrooms in Sioux Falls (70 miles away) and Rapid City (about 300 miles away). We were fully connected through a video and audio link, but each site could only see 1 other site at a time. For my style of teaching (I tend to the warm, fuzzy appraoch, believing that positive relationships give the kind of connectedness which let teaching become a partnership--a joining of minds rather than a dispensing of knowledge), I needed to figure out how to achieve that link. Some of my strategies involved eye contact; if I located the students in Vermillion right between me and the video camera, then any eye contact locally was perceived as eye contact with everyone. It seemed important to know people and use their names--for all of us, not just me as the facilitator. I taught eventually from all three sites and that made a huge difference in interaction--teasing seemed easier, which extended to interaction between people in all sites, once I had met people face to face. Indeed, the biggest challenge relationally was in keeping the people in Rapid City feeling connected since I only got out there once. At any rate, in talking with the students and then reading a lot of research on this, I found that immediacy (the use of verbal/language and nonverbal cues of connectedness and positive relationship) was linked with amount of learning, attitude toward the class, attitude toward the instructor. We have collected a first set of data exploring the link bewteen immediacy and perceptions of the technology--does a warm fuzzy instructor make the technology "transparent"? does a traditional lecturer who maintains interpersonal distance lead to negative views of the technology? What this all has to do with our psyber-link discussions is the issue of connection. If immediacy is important, how can it be created when the video and audio channels aren't even there? Are people more satisfied with lists that somehow create a sense of immediacy? Is there an immediacy of the soul that can be conveyed through strokes on a keyboard? What is the link between immediacy and authenticity and dialogue? Robert described us as "souls in a swirling dance" of communion and culture (sorry if the quotation marks aren't quite accurate--my handwriting once cold is questionable). He also positied, drawing from T. Moore, I think, that "every dialogue that is authentic is sexual in nature." Maybe this relates to an immediacy so close that we feel one with each other--unified in spirit, at least for a moment. Mila said that "dialogs are loving acts of gardening (perhaps each other)" (wow, how beautiful these images from Robert and Mila are). Perhaps we are gardening intimacy through authenticity. It does touch something physical also--despite the criticisms of intellectualizing as sterile and full of bullshit, to be honest, I find that intellectual discussions that create involvement, draw people in, draw me in -- mentally, emotionally, physically. The passion which Charles describes as guiding his discussion of codes is a real passion. The physical sensations of an intense discussion, one which leads to new ways of thinking and knowing about ideas, are as real and as powerful as sexual eperiences. The high in a meeting of the minds is every bit as rich as the high in a meeting of the bodies. ...Now, lest I make myself too ulnerable in this sharing of insight (it's feeling a bit chancy here), let me shift this to the idea of netsex introduced by Laurel/Dolores. What a powerful comment on the human imagination this carries with it--the notion that we can build such immediacy through a keyboard! Clearly our minds have a marvelous potential for filling in information to create wholes--and to become united with onother, no matter how far away. (I think Plato would have been fascinated with this--to him the sexual overtones of teaching were a given and, if I read him correctly, the sexuality of the meeting of minds was seen as superior to that of the meeting of bodies--or at least with female bodies for him. The homosexual connection for him seemed a superior metaphor for the meeting of minds, esp. as he saw philosophy as procreation of the soul as superior to procreation of children. ---hmmm, maybe he has a point. Soul-children don't outgrow their shoes as quickly as the body-children do. :) ). This all comes back down to the notion of immediacy and dialogue on the net--an issue that we are exploring both in words and in our relationships as they build in this little corner of psyber-space. --and now, I must be off--I am supposed to be commiting to paper an analysis of the archetypes for relationships as found in "Beauty and the Beast" and have dallied long enough. Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:03:39 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Guy Fielding <100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Some more reflections?? I'm still working my way through Walter's summary of the themes that have emerged in the recent life of this group conversation (sorry about that folks, we're a little slow over here...), and I thought I'd pitch in with some ideas about "lurking": Walter's Summary put it thusly(?): * The value of lurking -- the nature of list behaviour -- I'm struck by the "negative connotations" of the term (whatever later rationalisations emerge, there seems to be a clear element of disapproval implied, and quite a lot of the discussion of this seemed to be based on the assumption that lurkers had to explain their behaviour, whereas contributors did not. Couple of observations about this: a: in most face-to-face group conversations there are lurkers..in fact it is an iron rule of group communication that 1 or 2 people occupy about 40-60% of the conversational floor, the next 3-4 take up the rest of the available floor, and past 6-7 participants, the remainder are effectively silent...and the rule is "iron" in that the proportions of floor space occupied by the first 2 or 3 most vocal people don't change no matter what size the group is. It seems to me that cmc-lists simply reporduce this rule. They also reproduce it in the sense that the only way to break its operation in face-to-face groups is to impose very strict structuring of participation (eg rules used in NGT, parlimentary debate), and I think that some researchers have devised similar strict rules for managing contributions to cmc (researcher at University of Alaska??? was developing software of this kind back in the early 80's???). An interesting issue is why we don't seem to be phased by lurkers in face-to-face, but they do exercise us in cmc..could it be that in ftf we are able to lurk whilst at the same time using "back-channel" signals (nvb) to signal our attention, interst, understanding, acceptance of the conversation, but that lurkers in cmc can't do this...maybe we should devise a list- equivalent to nodding and going "mmhm"?? b: another thing that strikes me about list-conversations and "lurking" is that they pose the speaker with the problem of judging the kind of conversation they are engaged in...in a small face-to-face conversatuon the speaker can adapt their message to the particular individual characteristics of the other participants, ie they are involved in *interpersonal* communication. In a large group (100+) the speaker can't do this, and they are essentially involved in *mass* communication (even if they are addressing people face-to-face) The problem in list conversatuons is that you "know" some of the people you are conversing with (you may be responding to specific things they have written), but you're also aware that there are lots (100+) other people involved in the conversation who, because you've chosen to send via the distribution list, rather than email specified individuals, are particiapnts of equal status in the group..indeed, they may be your primary audience in some sense eg you appeal to them to add their voices to yours to support some particular point of view. The sender is therefore simultaneously doing both interpersonal and mass communication. The analogy that I think is closest in "old media" is the "group chat show" on TV or radio, where 4 or 5 panelists discuss an issue as if they are simply talking to each other, all the time being very aware that they are (hoping that) being watched/listened to by millions of people in a mass audience. c: are there concepts of exchange and equity floating around in our attitudes to lurkers?? ie that contributing involves effort, and represents some kind of "gift" to the group, and that efforts/ gifts should, over time, be roughly equal/equitable?? Still mulling over ideas prompted by the contributors to this list.. many thanks for the ideas, information and stimulation Guy Fielding _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:02:27 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Language and communication In several e-mails the role of language as one vehicle of communication was discussed. A specific feature of the psyberspace is the presence and interaction of people with different native tongues. They all communicate in English or Cyber-English. While it has been pointed out that differences in comprehension exist already between British, US, Australian and other types of English how much wider is the gap for those people who use it as a foreign language. Its not so much the technical side of the language (correct grammar, use of the appropriate word a.s.o.) than the cultural immersion which goes with it. If we look at different languages (Japanese was mentioned in one of the e-mails) we have to realize that these people think differently, too. To grasp the beauty of a Japanese Haiku, the feeling it transmits is also a question of experience of the geographical, cultural or social conditions of Japan of the last few hundred years let alone the special features of the Japanese language. Another example is Russian, a language of great richness of forms and differentiation. The different words for describing relatives are legend and sometimes are not even mastered by the Russians themselves. As Charles Cameron states "Americans mostly understand "baseball" code, but I don't". So there are other areas which require a specific background to make the communication successful, a sort of protocol (in terms of computer language). Our psychic reaction to what we read depends on our interpretation which in turn is heavily influenced by our cultural background. People who have been exposed to two different cultures develop a sort of schizophrenic condition. Matter of fact, Japanese companies or universities like to send their newly employed members abroad for language training but they dont like them to stay there for more than one year. Later, after they have been firmly entrenched in the Japanese system, they are fit for longer terms. The psyber-space is an area where differences in cultural background will manifest themselves as the space expands. Which reality will exist? Is the reality of a Russian or German different from that of an US-citizen or an Australian? Obviously, Walter in one of his earlier messages quoted from a poem (Hopkins) which obviously is famous in the Anglo-Saxon domain. It was meant to transport a certain message. I never heard of it and I did not understand the message. With respect to reality, Schopenhauer said something like: In a given environment everybody is living in a different world. Here, the given environment is the computer hardware and the cables connecting them, the INTERNET, and the server where we post our messages. Is there one psyberspace or are there many ? Cordially, WFS _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:25:39 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Marah Rosenberg~203-748-8835" Subject: Language and communities In-Reply-To: <199604092253.XAA23744@easynet.co.uk> Hello All; There's been some interesting posts here about the academic-ease nature of this list. And how that is / and can be very itimidating. I have only a BALA from a SUNY and may be younder than most people on this list (22) however, I created my on major called hypermedia and performance. For a senior project, With about 10 other people we rewrote MidSummer Night's Dream. What I have always been fascinated with is how people use technology. how they interact and what roles they play. this collaboration ended up finding it's way to the Gannet Suburban papers and the Village Voice. I have also been quoted in Cyber Stage Magazine and Canadian public radio. THerefore I am lead to believe that otherpeople agree with what I am saying and doing. and that I have a clue. THis ego stroking session is taking place because I have posted to this list and noone has bothered to respond or include me. (why should i not lurk if this is the treatment I get? ) Is my material not interesting enough? Are you not seeing my posts amongst the othe 20-30 perday. do you not understand words under 9 sylables? ;) I know it must be something. If you want to know why I lurk , it's because I try to make contact and I am not engaged. I don't repost the message(s) I'm responding to because so many people have somany good points on the issue that by the time I have gotten to the post, it has been responded to 3 or more times and looks like a mess. it also takes up space. So I try to just mention the theme and subject to which i am responding. (this is largely a matter to be discussed in a nettiquitte forum - and in a different thread.) ____________________ Finaly to the (core) subject of this post. Isn't it true that part of community building is the formation of language? I love hearing all the internet and psyber and psycho bable. two years ago when my artistic partner and I decided to do our midsummer on the internet, there was noone around that was willing to teach us. or that really could. the formation of secret language seems to be tied up in job (in)security as well as community building. So we befriended the c professor, learned how to get manual pages from the unix computer itself, and learned. slowly. I am proud of the knowledge that I have earned, but i alos know that if i can learn it so can others. this doesn't scare me. when i techno babble i try very hard to retain the human element . the metaphores that i used to learn. the pedagogy, i suppose. where is this leading? From now on, when I post to this list or any other, I will continue too use tla's (three letter acronyms) and other net and unix speak, as well as vernacular relevant to to the topic. however, I will also try to reference it, provide a url or a paper recource so that others may self educate. If we insist that evceryone use plain simple english (american or english or whatever other language of choice) then we flatten our landscape. (is gentrify the right word) Is there possibly a wayt that we can celebrate our diversity and also not loose half the people out there? (sereral times posts have gone way over my head. . little by little I understand more of what is going on by referencing and by sheer immersion) Even though this list has it's roots in psychology and psychologists, not everyione in this community on line is fluent in jargon. can we create a new language for this new community, based on its members and not it's content? or is it just (a pipe dream)? Marah Rosenberg http://gaudi.va.purchase.edu/mnd.html our midsummer _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:28:16 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: AK Naskali Subject: Re: Here I go again.. Hi Dolores, Okay, I'm a lurker, not so much because I don't have anything to say, but because I procrastinate and feel somewhat overwhelmed by all the email I currently receive. But here's my two cents worth..... As an academic (professional graduate student, former college instructor) and an educator (former elementary school teacher, instructor of education courses), I am disillusioned and concerned by the lack of "education" in college/university academia and elementary/secondary school teachers. Sorry, I'm generalizing here. I do realize there are numerous exceptions. I like the distinction made by Ashley Montagu between "schooling" and "education". Our current school system is based on the industrial factory model and is totally inadequate. It is in dire need of major transformation (hence most of my studies). I truly question the "education" that is provided at ANY level in the majority of so-called "educational institutions"! And frankly, those hallowed ivory tower halls which I sought in days gone by, no longer attract me. I guess, one of the hopes I have for internet interactions is to be able to participate (even as an active listener-lurker) in a heterogenous group with people from a wide variety of backgrounds and experiences. Different ideas then could challenge us to expand our awareness and consciousness. I envision some kind of diversity in unity and unity in diversity. The greater the differences, the more opportunity there would be for creativity, for learning about ourselves and others, for becoming better informed and stimulated to want to learn more - for becoming educated as opposed to just schooled! Peace, Arja-Kaisa _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:39:11 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Here I go again.. Well, Josh. I felt motivated to respond to your message, although it wasn't addressed to me or in response to one of my messages. "It serves a function much like the Sabbath." (the line missing between the two) You said: >I said "I can't be bothered " to an American woman last year >and she scoulded me for being so rude. It was just something >small and I thought that she was over-reacting but she >claimed that where she came from (Washington DC) it was >one of the most obnoxious things you could say. Washington D.C. This is truly a tragic place. Shootings in the streets amidst the millionaire's club on the hill. A town where you're nobody unless you're somebody. The disparity between the economic classes really comes to the forefront in this place. Do the people who work here, live here? Josh, did she live there or just commute to work there? >There is a "the The" lyric which goes "I'm trying so hard to be >myself, that I have become someone else" or something like >that I lost my copy... Yes, what a name! I heard some lyrics from a 'The, The' song back in the early 90's: "If you can't change the world, change yourself".--The The The idea expressed in the lyrics form part of my conception of pop psychology. But, you and I know that, bastardization doesn't diminish its potential impact. In fact, we reach a larger audience. Back in my earlier days, we delighted in the thought that eventually the old school of thought would die out, to be replaced by younger, fresher minds (though we talked about it in more graphic terms). Is it any different than it was then? The hippies who have grown up are now the establishment. We find that each new generation has to reforge it's identity in the smithy of contemporary experience. >But to be sure I will be bothered to read tomorrows >installment in the ongoing saga of our psyber lives. Saga. Strange how that word reminds me of college students I once knew, who were daytime soap addicts, people who lived their lives watching other people's lives. Well, not even really other people's lives but fantasy lives. My reaction to this was, "Hey, get a life!" That was then. This is now. I no longer say that because life is whatever it is. John (a little bit slower and a little bit older) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:44:50 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Josh ... Here I go again.. Hello Josh, I am a relative newcomer to the list (March 26 '96) and am pleased to meet another of the participants from the past. JO>Writing can be scary for me. Not scary as in being in the same room as JO>a lion is scary, but just, oh shit I want to get this right. Some of JO>this fear is constructive . It censors some otherwise unconsidered JO>spiel I might go on in some self indulgent state. But some of it is a JO>hinderence. Some of this hindering fear comes form my own self JO>expectations and some comes from the expectations that I imagine others JO>to have. Your right, speaking out here (writing) is indeed scary. Knowing that we come with our own language/communication experiences, we speak hoping that what we mean to say is the same as what is being heard. How likely is that when we all hear different things? This is where dialogue becomes important. Dialogue helps us to put in the *context* that Jurek talked about in one of his posts. Dialogue helps us to negotiate meaning. JO>You can't hide reality. Whatever is "hiding" it is JO>real too, and must in some way relate to the reality. I don't think I JO>can be bothered getting to hung up on expressing my real selves, I am to JO>busy trying express fake ones, but I just never seem to manage. Oh god JO>did that sound pretentcious... whoops I'm getting scared again. No one can't hide *reality*. Each of the selves we express is *real* (do we have fake selves?). We pose and posture and act a role for the moment --- and still our *self* will ooze through our poses, our words. JO>I hope we all keep posing and posturing as much as is required. If I JO>don't understand something then I will ask you to clarify it if I can be JO>bothered that is. An open invitation for bullshit --- I like that. I also take it as an open invitation for poetry, for philosophic wandering and musing, for critical analysis of arcane academaia. Merci! Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:45:04 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Tracy ... I overheard you to say ... Tracy, Your response to Dolores was quite interesting and fun to listen to. I repeat part of your dialogue. D>>And Im going to pose a question too.. What does the net do for the D>>imagination.?. a commodity little utilised by some and greatly D>>undervalued by others. Yet very important here. (If I mention netsex D>>again you'll start thinking I am obsessed with it) TS>I won't...but why do I have this vague, unfounded fear that Robert TS>might? *sly grin* Touche! Those of us with French blood do see things in a carnal way. We do relate the world (and the word) to a huge love in, a Woodstock of romance. Cherie, j'adore l'idee de l'amour. Pour moi, la vie existe afin de nous donner l'occasion de passer des heures avec quelqu'un qui nous aime. TS>Well, I'm fairly certain if I post to this list...I'll TS>be inundated with flames...and I'll want to answer them ALL. Tracy, this is no *flame* unless you want it to be a candle flame lit to keep out the dark. Hoping to hear from you again soon. Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:45:23 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: codes, contexts, dialogues, and netsex Susan, I enjoyed your description of your distance ed. experiences. As a teacher who has used Internet for about three years as a means of experiencing dialogue, I can relate to some of your questions. You also took some time in your post to comment: SS>Robert described us as "souls in a swirling dance" of communion and SS>culture (sorry if the quotation marks aren't quite accurate--my SS>handwriting once cold is questionable). He also positied, drawing from SS>T. Moore, I think, that "every dialogue that is authentic is sexual in SS>nature." Maybe this relates to an immediacy so close that we feel one SS>with each other--unified in spirit, at least for a moment. Yes, immediacy is a key element. However, besides an immediacy, there is reciprocity and negotiation at work here, conversaton that satiates the mind like lovers find satiation in each others embrace. SS>The passion which Charles describes as guiding his discussion of SS>codes is a real passion. The physical sensations of an intense SS>discussion, one which leads to new ways of thinking and knowing about SS>ideas, are as real and as powerful as sexual experiences. The high in a SS>meeting of the minds is every bit as rich as the high in a meeting of SS>the bodies. ...Now, lest I make myself too vulnerable in this sharing of SS>insight (it's feeling a bit chancy here) Perhaps that is why netsex has such an appeal. For the price of Internet, one can give and receive pleasure without feelings of guilt. Guilt is associated with evil doing (often illicit sexual activity). Not to confuse what is happening online as sex, we might better describe it as pleasurable as sexual fantasy. This dimension has many appearances of *fantasy*. Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:37:51 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "sfuze@tiac.net" Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. Comments: To: Robert de Cyberie In-Reply-To: On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Robert de Cyberie wrote: > Kyra (and company - hello to the silent ones), Hehe. A little close to home, but not entirely true -- at one point I *was* multiple. This is as good a time as any to state my business (and a short bio). Who am I? I am me. At one point in time I was many me's. Currently I am a student (in both the literal and proverbial sense of the word) in psychology (and in life), working towards my Doctorate in Psychology from a Masters in Social Work. I used to work with traumatized individuals, but am now leaning towards spending my life doing research... It's easy to get burnt out, and to develop a hardened-ness towards people, if you aren't careful in such a line of work... Who do I admire? Tis better to quote literary characters than real people (although one *could* argue that sometimes characters in books are more real than some people) for me... Howard Roark in 'The Fountainhead' (I don't particularly care for the Ayn Rand Foundation, however...) is a good place to start... I appreciate Pirsig's books (Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Lila)... I have a place in my heart for alot of children's fiction such as The Little Princess and the Secret Garden (which are now available through the Gutenberg Foundation online, if anyone cares to look at them), for reaching at the heart and producing a sense of wonder and hope that so much adult literature (and adult living, for that matter) discourage, fear, and repress. What do I want from this list? I like the repartee here, and the general quality that is so deficient now on the net -- an ability to create art with words instead of believing that the net (every part of the net) should be open to any and everything. I am an outspoken proponent of free speech, but believe in the premise "To everything a season" (with apologies to the Byrds and the Bible) -- alot of the words that are spoken online nowadays are far less sincere than the ones spoken when I was first online several years ago (has it been 7 years already??), and while there SEEMS to be so much more to the net now, there is actually far less substance, and much less opportunity to have a philosophical discussion about anything without somebody getting offended. To use a bad analogy, the more kids you have, the less things you can afford. I am not a very inflammatory individual, and have signed off of lists that participate in extensive argumentation on stance -- it's equivocal to arguing with a militant prolifer when you are prochoice -- a waste of time, after the information on both sides has been made clear. I have lurked on many other lists, but not posted anything. I have only posted extensively on one list (and by extensively, I mean a few posts a week at most) -- the traumatic-stress list, and will make an occasional post on usenet from time to time. If you are looking for a lurker to this list, I can be that. If you are looking for a participant, I would enjoy being that. With that (somewhat odd, and not pointed at all) cluttered intro written at an ungodly hour with little sleep and rarer dreams, I sign off now. --Kyra. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:00:30 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . . You said: >First things first, I want to get a face animated and able to >understand English, along with speech recognition, and the >ability to look you in the eye, running on a PC. Wilber, or should I call you Faustus? I would have words of warning having traveled a similar route, but if steadfast conviction is what you have, then I hope you realize your goal. I have often seen that fire in others extinguished in the process of time. And, others who search in vain for that fire that was their youth. I think I am turning into an old fool. >>Or, did I read that your goal lies in another direction? A >>fulfillment of an age-old quest. >It's not a new theme. The "Wizard of Oz" comes to mind. I was thinking about that base urge to want to continue life whether through immortality or creation of new life. The spark of life that transcends mortality. (Sometimes words don't need to be restricted to a sentence.) >I'm interested in what you see as the downside... I find that I'm good at beginnings but sometimes unfortunately only that. I like to open doors. >I'm not familar with the metaphore "golden spike" but I do >agree that there will be some level of collaboration. Yes, my apologies. I was not too clear about this. This is an allusion to the 'Iron Horse' of the late 1800's. Railroads were being constructed simultaneously in the United States from the West Coast and the East Coast/Midwest. I think one place where the rails converged was in Utah. A golden spike was emplaced to symbolize the completion of an unifying goal. >I've had a people tell me that I should use a woman's face as >the first interface, but I want to use my own first. (Artist >self-portrait metaphore here..) Have you ever seen the rendition of a generic face? The face is a compilation of many faces. It looks something like everyone but like no one in particular. If this face was used, then it'd force me to remember names better. John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:00:32 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . . Mila, You said: >From a pure logical point of view I transformed your >statement into a request if I did understand right, giving the >example of . . . I'm sorry, I really don't feel like responding likewise. >Here I'm not sure what is meant by "communicating" . . . Entities communicate. >My personal feeling is simply that they type along in this list >without any regard to how their linguistic behavior may feel >to others - bursting into explanations instead, if responses >don't match expectations. Of course, but with yourself excluded. >And this, perhaps, led you to the abbreviature "Language is a >lie"? In this context I quite understand, thank you. What are you tripping on, Mila? John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:00:36 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Language and communication WFS (Dr. Schmidt), >People who have been exposed to two different cultures >develop a sort of schizophrenic condition. With respect to psyche, I have heard this referred to as: Insanita germanica. John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:13:59 -0700 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jane Garland Subject: Re: Some more reflections?? Guy fielding wrote: I'm still working my way through Walter's summary of the themes >that have emerged in the recent life of this group conversation >(sorry about that folks, we're a little slow over here...), and >I thought I'd pitch in with some ideas about "lurking": > >Walter's Summary put it thusly(?): > a: in most face-to-face group conversations there are lurkers. ...... An interesting issue is why >we don't seem to be phased by lurkers in face-to-face, but they do >exercise us in cmc..could it be that in ftf we are able to lurk >whilst at the same time using "back-channel" signals (nvb) to signal >our attention, interst, understanding, acceptance of the conversation, >but that lurkers in cmc can't do this...maybe we should devise a list- >equivalent to nodding and going "mmhm"?? > >c: are there concepts of exchange and equity floating around in >our attitudes to lurkers?? ie that contributing involves effort, >and represents some kind of "gift" to the group, and that efforts/ >gifts should, over time, be roughly equal/equitable?? > >Still mulling over ideas prompted by the contributors to this list.. As a relatively new lurker on this list, I think the "slow to warm up "temperamental" factors need to be considered. It has taken me a while to develop a relationship with the several lists I have been part of for 1-2years, but now they are old friends... This is my way of saying "mmhm", "I'm interested and listening and figuring out who you are... When I feel comfortable, I'll say something". Jane Garland _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:33:34 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Language and communities Hi, Marah, glad to meet you here. As I'm getting from your lovely posting, you're scared by feeling totally ignored. In other words, you're confronted with *silence*. You don't seem to have read earlier posts on the silence topic, in which Walter, Robert, myself and others exchanged chiseled msgs doing their utmost to keep a playful tone. I've never concealed my being hurt by that silence - while their tenor always was running like "We're *hearing* the silence; it keeps telling us something we just can't express", thereby artfully sidestepping and circle-dan- cing the concern I tried to voice: If getting zero responses, you can be sure they've given you *no* cues whatever in which directions they're expecting you to develop. Thank you for the opportunity to go one step further: Complete silence *entitles you* to write on *any* topic *you* choose - no mat- ter how gaga or exotic - as long it's *formally* embeddable into "psyberspace". For example, a valid reaction on *complete silence* could be telling a faerie- dream in which characters such as myself or others you're perceiving onstage here are transformed in your favourite pets or flowers or whatever things you like or dislike. Just add a bit action to the scenery you composed thus - and you bet they'll respond in all tonalities they avail. Writing this onlist is meant as a threat from me to act correspondingly, if I'd feel neglected (I own 3 wonderful cats - one to impersonate Robert...). Finally, lemme try to respond to your core quest on language: >>> Isn't it true that part of community building is the formation of language? I love hearing all the internet and psyber and psycho bable. <<< hmm-m - but do we here like to be heard as mere babble generators instead of being listened to the content we try to convey ?? >>> two years ago when my artistic partner and I decided to do our midsummer on the internet, there was noone around that was willing to teach us. or that really could. ... <<< What is it that tech babbling gives you ?? Feeling to belong to some secret community of adepts?? How is it for you to use tech metaphors about human beings ?? Have humans to "function" like computers or the like?? >>> From now on, when I post to this list or any other, I will continue too use tla's (three letter acronyms) and other net and unix speak, as well as vernacular relevant to to the topic. however, I will also try to reference it, provide a url or a paper recource so that others may self educate. If we insist that evceryone use plain simple english (american or english or whatever other language of choice) then we flatten our landscape. (is gentrify the right word) <<< If I get it right, you'd like to transform our lovely psyberspace into an Orwellian nightmare equipped with a suitable Netspeak - in which some of the intimate human feelings/questions don't exist any more - because they have no translation to Netspeak?? What a Brave New World that you sketch!! >>> Is there possibly a wayt that we can celebrate our diversity and also not loose half the people out there? (sereral times posts have gone way over my head. . little by little I understand more of what is going on by referencing and by sheer immersion) <<< The smaller the community the better for celebrating diversity and other ego-strokers.. I've switched the phe psyber-l to ACK again, just for bo- dycount. >>> Even though this list has it's roots in psychology and psychologists, not everyione in this community on line is fluent in jargon. <<< Fluency in jargon is the main obstacle for clients to be helped. >> can we create a new language for this new community, based on its members and not it's content? << On which members? (given that they come and go unnoticed - mostly). Mind to explain your proposal a bit further? Thank you for the opportunity to respond, Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:29:56 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Structure [was: Re: Some more reflections??] In-Reply-To: <960410210339_100044.275_JHB113-2@CompuServe.COM> Hi Guy > They also reproduce it > in the sense that the only way to break its operation in face-to-face > groups is to impose very strict structuring of participation (eg rules > used in NGT, parlimentary debate), and I think that some researchers > have devised similar strict rules for managing contributions to cmc > (researcher at University of Alaska??? was developing software of > this kind back in the early 80's???). NGT? It does not bother me that people read & do not write on this list -- to add to our list of list metaphors -- this one is the mall -- not everyone shops -- but the foot traffic is great. A great place to meet and lurk! Do a bit of people watching. However: I am interested in developing on line "groups" where there is tight structuring & fixed numbers -- where people agree to abide by the structures of the group -- such as responding to the facilitator / leader's prompts -- eg: Lets hear from everyone about one feeling & one thought that comes up as you face the screen & think of this group. I have been intrigued by the game process that Charles has introduced as it structures process beautifully. Structure provides freedom to express -- the canvas for the painter. I have participated in an on line reading group that IMHO suffered from a lack of structure -- and hence ground to a halt. It could happen here, though I doubt it will as _whatever happens_ it is always on topic to discuss what is or is not happening ! I am hoping we can explore many options and structures and report back here. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:09:56 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Regina Garson Subject: PSYBER Re: A friend goes digital Hi, My name is Regina and I am new to the list, no comments yet, but a suggestion from another group in which I participate that had the same problem. We all include a part of the listserv name in the subject line so messages are easily scanned and dealt with in a timely manner as to business or pleasure. I.e. PSYBERNET RE: etc. > >First however I scanned my inbox for personal mail ( I still don't have >anyway of doing this automatically and am getting damn tempted to learn >some code and write something myself!) Regina Garson Magic Stream http://fly.hiwaay.net/~garson/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:28:20 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Regina Garson Subject: PSYBER Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe.. Hi, I'm new and joined for the same reasons you site. By way of introduction, I maintain a web site that is devoted to emotional wellness and provides as a data base of resources relevant to mental health issues, as well as a literary zine focused on emotional issues. I am an older student - second time around, gone back to school and hope to specialize in the treatment of trauma. My first degree and background has been in advertising/communications. I am especially interested in the use of creative writing and literature as a tool in healing and see endless possibilities in the future of the net. From discussions I have had both on and off line I have found the internet is a valuable resource for connecting especially for individuals who for some reason are isolated, perhaps by disability or maybe geographically and are able to utilize the net, especially listserv as a support group. I have also known individuals with more rare emotional diagnosis being able to connect with others in the same situation. At times this connectedness can mean more to the healing process than the actual therapist. I had hoped to lurk a while a first to get a feel for the discussion, and don't really have a starting discussion. Since there doesn't seem to be one on the topic, I thought I'd just introduce myself. I am here to hopefully learn a little, and make constant improvements in my on-line emotional wellness projects. Regina Garson Magic Stream http://fly.hiwaay.net/~garson/ . >Vicki, > >So are you still on the PSYBER-L listserv? > >What do you think about what has been going on there? > >Wilbur > >At 08:51 AM 4/2/96 -0600, you wrote: >>Wilbur, >> >>>I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv >>>groups.. >> >>Don't unsub yet! I joined for the same reason. I'm sure we're not the >>only ones. >> >>Vicki >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L >> >> >> >--------------------------------------- >Putting a human face on technology. ;-) >--------------------------------------- > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:51:20 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Guy Fielding <100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Lists and Differences In a recent posting Arja-Kaisa Naskali wrote: >>>>>> I guess, one of the hopes I have for internet interactions is to be able to participate (even as an active listener-lurker) in a heterogenous group with people from a wide variety of backgrounds and experiences. Different ideas then could challenge us to expand our awareness and consciousness. I envision some kind of diversity in unity and unity in diversity. The greater the differences, the more opportunity there would be for creativity, for learning about ourselves and others, for becoming better informed and stimulated to want to learn more - for becoming educated as opposed to just schooled! >>>>> Several previous posts have struggled with the tensions caused by different dialects (academic-ese vs vernacular) and commented on the excitement of the enormous variety of different kinds of people and associated perspectives/styles who are posting to this list. Maybe there is an important point here, which is that communication is possible because of what we already share (language, culture, existing knowledge) but it is worthwhile beccause of the differences (what we don't already share). If the differences are too great we can't communicate, or can do so only with enormous difficulty and at great risk of misunderstanding. If the differences don't exist, aren't big enough, there is no or little point in communicating. The "trick" is to get the right balance, and one of the things this list has been discussing/working out is how to manage that balance. One way it is managed is by people simply "dropping out", another is by people working out a new, shared dialect (and related rules of conduct) (and maybe "lurking" is partly about people doing that learning, and getting up confidence to produce as well as receive..just as we can often understand a foreign language before/better than we can speak it). I've been involved in setting up student exchanges, and the slogan I've coined for our exchange programmes is that "the similarities (between university programmes) make exchanges possible, the differences make them worthwhile". It seems to me that that notion applies equally well to communication, and explains some of the excitement of list-conversation. Guy Fielding 100044.275@Compuserve.com _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:25:41 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: The Starving Wolf and the Three Big Fat Pigs Comments: cc: Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk My dear particants of 'Psybernet', I would like to crawl out of my den and speak after lurking for, well, quite a long time. I've been reading Psybernet for over a year now, and have found the discussions interesting - I havent contributed partly for lack of time to do the posts justice, partly because of context and partly because I have not up until now had the right ideas at the right time to press the big red button and post. In the last few weeks I've been able to spend some time actually reading the articles rather than consigning them to their dusty grave in the depths of my hard drive, and I think I've - just this once - managed to put together enough interesting ideas to make a proper response. The thread on lurking intrigued me, I being something of a veteran at it, and now Dolores's and Tracy's articles having pressed several of my personal buttons I find that I might just be 'on-topic' as well. So, in answer to the calls to 'lurk no more', I hereby crawl out of my den and echo an old and vaguely sinister saying: 'Be very careful what you wish for... you just might get it'. :-) And if I'm thought of as the big bad wolf for hiding so long in the dark and only pouncing when the discussion ventures into my lair.... Perhaps it's a case of 'The Starving Wolf and the Three Big Fat Pigs...'? :-> Just kidding... Let me explain what I mean by 'pushing my buttons', then. 1. Robert mentioned Robert Pirsig and his book Lila, which is one of my all-time favourite books and a cornerstone of my own. I've written a computer program called 'Lilamap', which attempts to make a true implementation of the filing system Pirsig describes combined with computer mind-mapping, 'hypno-reviewing', my variant of the photo-reading technique , cross-referencing and pattern searching of mind-maps, text files and news articles, and computer aided self hypnosis. Stephen Calhoun' article about parsing words pressed a few buttons with me too, and I had some fun making a mind-map out of it. It got me thinking too about how with a simple keyword-parsing program I could turn the news articles I have [including Psybernet] into a huge master-mind map. [mind-maps are the work of the British author Tony Buzan - they consist of diagrams with images and codes which allow the brain to remember information far more easily than with linear text.] Anyone still awake after that? :-) Tracy mentioned synchronicity. I've recently had a series of coincidences so outrageously bizarre that I had to admit defeat and accept that Jung was right. I enjoyed browsing Tracy's web pages and found links to quite a few pieces of information which fell into place just at the right time, and which I have been looking for elsewhere without success - much appreciated. I'd like to recommend the book 'The Celestine Prophecy' to anyone interested in synchronicity, also. 3. Some miscellaneous buttons got pressed by Charles Cameron's mentions of lurking and flaming, Wilbur's mention of the devil and Dolores's of mad cow disease. Having personal experience of all but the last [I hope:-)] , I found these articles interesting too. It was Susan Swan's ideas on civility and John's discussion of political rhetoric, hypnosis and truth which finally pressed the trigger; I have great experience of rhetoric, hypnosis and Machiavelian Deviousness on the net, being a veteran of the alt.hypnosis and alt.psychology.nlp Usenet flamefests. I found Dolores's contention of 'civility counting for diddly' and the 'cut the bullshit' speech fascinating, since it reminded me of the persuasion tactics of the 'great satan' himself, Ross Jeffries of the alt.psychology.nlp flamewar. If Dolores isnt Satan incarnate, Ross is at least in with a good shout in the minds of many long-suffering net-surfers. I have a blatant ulterior motive in saying the above in that I want to post my 'Jeffries ideas for nice people' article in response to Dolores's other points, too. 4. 'Truth is an essential of beauty... and love the most beautiful of all.' Well said. I would like to post my own 'Love Changes Everything' Article here to show how completely I agree with Dolores on this. It's long, but I hope it will serve as a better introduction of myself and my ideas than I can give off the top of my head. I'll also post my 'Jeffries ideas for nice people' article which complements the first article by explaining what I really did to experience 'deep true love' under hypnosis. 5. I'd like to end this article by replying to some of Dolores's comments; > Wake up and smell the coffee. What you think you see is almost never what > you get. That depends on your filters; When I first started lurking here, I understood little of what was said; as time went on I picked up the meaning of some of the terms used, and my interest increased as I began to understand what Walter and others were getting at. I think 'academospeak' can obscure meaning, but it can also convey subtle ideas we cant otherwise label - it's the intent behind the words that makes the difference IMO, and the intent here seems wholly friendly and positive. >Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list. Actually, *I* do! Seriously, I have been accused of this quite a lot. Nobody > would ever be understood, Wrong.... and nobody would ever be bothered to listen. Wronger! Do > you speak like this in reality? I hope not. My apologies... :-) What's wrong with plain English? Nothing....but there is all the difference in the world between a vocabulary which is used to it's best effect - and often long words and agreed definitions are most effective in complex discussions - and one which is deliberately designed to obscure meaning and keep out outsiders. Whilst people here may have some of the latter forced on them, I think in spirit they're by and large in the former camp. In NLP we have a caveat: 'The meaning of a communication is the outcome it produces'; I like that idea; I've found here that the messages have been intended to produce positive outcomes, and have for me; > Is there some sense of insecurity that makes you want to parade your > "intelligence" in a whole load of frilly terms - God spare us all from > self-styled net poets. It takes 15 sentences to vomit out a sentence that > only merits 3. Thats the problem with lists, you make them elitist and in > the end only the elite remain. No growth just stagnant discussion and re > discussion. Aaargh! That paragraph seems to me to be a web of presuppositional language. It's a machine-gun of negative images and implications; In saying that, I've enjoyed Dolores posts on the whole and believe her intentions to be positive too, so I'll take my own advice and focus on the good. This is one of my pet ideas, that if we encounter good and bad wherever we are, we should focus on the *good* and not on the bad. Dont give it the energy! Where attention goes, energy flows.... And when I focus on the ideas in Dolores and Tracy's posts which I like, I find a lot of good to explore and think about. 6. I'll round off by listing the articles I'm attaching to this & some references to my own stuff. I cant promise to be a regular poster here but I will bark if my chain's yanked. In closing I'd like to thanks everyone for their thoughts, their efforts and their time. Best Regards Steve Murray Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk Articles --------- Love Changes Everything, Steve Murray, GNU freeware Jeffries Ideas for Nice People, GNU freeware Computer Aided Self Hypnosis, GNU freeware. References ----------- Lila, Robert M Pirsig The Mind Map Book, Tony and Barry Buzan The Celestine Prophecy, James Redfield And the Truth shall set you free, David Icke My web pages are at www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:29:20 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: 'Love Changes Everything' article Comments: To: To@udcf.gla.ac.uk 


Love Changes Everything
-----------------------



Just over a year ago I was suffering from irritable bowel syndrome,
unable to think well and probably couldnt have written an instruction
manual for a crisp packet never mind an article like this. At the time,
I blamed my having gotten into that state on everything and everyone
I could think of, bar one;I blamed my employers, the water, the air,
the government, my friends, my family, God, Satan, the 'system',the list
went on and on, as did my symptoms. As it turns out the one thing I
didnt point my finger at turned out to be the real culprit - me.

I didnt really have any 'big' problems which were depressing me and
stressing me out  - it was more an accumulation of little things and a
general malaise, with a default depressive attitude, drooping head & a
pessimistic & apathetic undercurrent to everything I was doing -
which wasnt very much.

These little things would have an incredible capacity for niggling &
infuriating me - a disapproving glance as I passed people in the
street, a slightly amused or sarcastic reaction when my tone of voice
or general unassertive manner turned people off, an overriding
feeling of being disqualified from other people's good opinions &
being treated as  a second class citizen BECAUSE I was depressed;
this was the final cut, that most of the disapproval & 'unfair'
treatment was as a result of my having been depressed, stressed and
kept down by that same treatment in the first place.

Something I just didnt see over the whole time I was in this rut - a
good ten years all in all, if not more - was that it might have been ME
who had depressed myself. I wouldn't entertain that  possibility
because I had too much evidence of the nasty, brutish life I was
experiencing to let go of the onething I would cling to - 'it's not my
fault'. That would have been the final cut, the last humiliating
embarassment, to think that it was ME who was responsible for my
wasted life.

What follows is the tale of how I found out that it was indeed me who
was responsible for my situation, and how I was finally able to admit
it to myself and other people.

An eye for an eye

Working in Southern England I had become obsessed with the fact
that other people seemed to be constantly trying to get at me. In
shops, people would seem to deliberately try and brush past me at a
moment and with an abruptness calculated to cause discomfort; I saw
hidden agendas everywhere  with the least simple things people were
doing, in trying to get served before me in queues by sneaking past, by
sneering as I walked past them or by walking & moving with such forceful
postures & swiftness of gesture that my attention & my composure was
disrupted - with a residual resentment growing on my part that they had
done this on purpose.

It's difficult to describe the intensity & malignance of these feelings
as I am now sitting here typing without being able to remember
properly what they were like; They were strong enough however to
fill me with hate and cause enough stress to make me badly
physically ill.

After a while I realised that my health was deteriorating to the point
that I would probably be unable to work were it to continue it's
decline; I also realised the senselessness of my letting things get to
me since surely these people's actions didnt need to upset me. I
realised too that it was probably mostly in my head anyway, since people
in general have better things to do  than to deliberately try and wreck
my health. I went through this thought process one evening and suddenly
the answer came to me;

-what was really causing the stress, the anger & the deterioration in
my health was not these people's actions; it was my perception and
opinion of what their actions and motives were. I had not realised
that these are not the same thing - and that although I couldnt change
the other people, I could certainly change my own reaction.

I tried this, telling myself that I would just refuse to get annoyed and
realised that if I couldnt see or hear these other people then they
wouldnt be able to affect me; I would just pretend that I couldnt see
or hear them. I went on a train journey, and came home totally
wrecked since it just hadnt worked. It's all very well telling yourself
you feel OK and arent bothered when someone is noticably sneering
at you & obviously having a good laugh & a good gloat at your
depressive, messed up appearance & manner. Actually it did work the
first few times but I had forgotten just how many annoying incidents I
would tend to have in one day - sometimes over a hundred.

I realised then that if I could have a half hour to rationalise each
incident, and go through the whole thought process each time an
indicent occurred & I found myself feeling angry and annoyed, then I
would probably be OK. All I had to do was find a spare 200 hours or
so every day and then I could feel all right for most of the morning.

I decided at this point to try using a 'codeword', a word to summarise
this though process, which I could mutter under my breath whenever
an incident annoyed me, and which would remind me there and then
that the annoyance was all in my mind, that the offending cretin
probably didnt care what I thought anyway and that it was up to me
whether I wanted to let the incident get to me or not; I tried muttering
a codeword under my breath which would sum up this train of
thought and....

It didnt work. Although the codeword managed to bring back the 'it's
ok to let it go' realisation which the half-hour train of thought had
brought, it didnt overcome the hate. I still wanted to get back at the
offending cretin(s), and the hate was stronger than my reason;
although it made me feel a  little better, the overriding residual
emotion after each confrontation was still one of hate, and the quality
of my health continued to spiral downwards.

And then I realised something - I thought to myself 'Well how CAN I
get back at them? the worst thing I can probably do to them is to
leave them the way they are, full of hate, negativity, resentment &
evil. Anything I do to them will just rebound on me, and make things
worse; the worst thing I can do to them IS probably to leave them
alone.

 This didnt convince me , but the following did - it didnt matter
whether or not they were doing 'it' intentionally, whatever 'it' was that
they were doing in my perception to try and get at me; if they werent
deliberately trying to have a go at me then I didnt want to react and
give them a hard time when they werent doing anything wrong. If
they WERE deliberately trying to, whether consciously,
subconsciously, by design or by default, then I DID want to get back
at them but the best way to do that was to leave them alone, not
retaliate and allow fate to handle them. This is what I mean when I
say 'the worst thing you can do to them is to leave them as they are'
since I do believe that when people commit evil acts that they will
rebound on them.

At the time I thought up this codeword, I could see the offending
people getting damned for it; And so I realised that I was right in
saying that genuinely, the worst thing I could do to them from my
beliefs was to leave them alone and not try to help them out of their
sickness, not try to extend a hand and not try to show THEM that it
doesnt have to be like this.

 And finally, my subconscious mind [as I now know it to be] accepted
the suggestion; Finally, when I muttered my codeword or ?NLP-
word? as I then termed them, I got the relief I needed, I got all the
benefits of letting go of the hate and feeling sorrow and pity for the
people I had  previously felt hate for in these confrontations.

And I was able to let go of the guilt of not being sure  of whether or
not these people were really trying to get at me or whether I was
being mistaken and precipitating the negative atmosphere or
influence myself; IT DIDNT MATTER. If  they werent doing
anything wrong, my muttering wouldnt do anything to them it would
just make me feel OK. If they WERE doing something wrong, then
they'd get screwed for it and my 'need' for satisfaction and hate was
dissipated. My codeword in either case would make me feel OK and I
was able to forget about most of the petty incidents within a few
seconds, rather than lurching from wound to wound in a hate-filled,
venom-spitting rage as I had done before.

The codewords did not work on serious situations, but I shied back
from using them on them; I realised that if I tried it and it didnt work
on a particular situation that I would be likely to fall prey to the
horrible voice in my head which said to me that I was going to blow
it and I would be back to square one once the words stopped working.
However, by holding back from 'wasting' them on serious situations
that fear never did come true, and I doubt that it really could now
with all the evidence I have of long-term maintainable benefits.

I used my original codeword a *lot* of times. Probably 40,000 -
50,000 utterances by now over a year and a half, and in that whole
time I have only rarely been asked what it means. Said quietly under
one's breath it actually serves to burst peoples' bubbles, their script
behaviours and 'all sorted and satisfied'  look - it's not something
people generally expect and so they dont usually have an assertive or
manipulative built in subconscious reaction for it which they might
for more common solutions.

The question of whether or not it has a subliminal effect I havent
gone into that deeply now since I am no longer using the same
codewords externally; the fear that some people may experience that
it is some kind of occult curse or whatever is I would admit a danger,
since this kind of fear can obsess and damage people's health, but my
solution to this is I think a wonderful one, and I shall get to it
shortly.

After using quite a few of these codeword utterances I realised that I
was being succesful in most instances where I was feeling anger &
hate but not in those where people were laughing at me or just
laughing where I perceived there was some offence towards me, and
particularly where the laughter was continuing for any length of time;

I felt incensed and enraged whenever the slightest hint of ridicule
was directed at me, and I became obsessed with thinking that people
were laughing, sniggering and disapproving of me, talking about me
behind my back and having a hilariously good time analysing and
gloating about each of my faults. I was very, very, profoundly
shocked when I found out that most of them werent.

Sure a few were, but these were the kind of people who would IMO do that
to everyone - I was flabbergasted more than words can say when I
finally realised that most of the laughter, the sarcasm, the use of
humour as a social escape and as a manipulative tool is essentially
false, hollow and an illusion. That my rage and becoming incensed at
it was a reaction to a problem that didnt really exist - it was the huge
affront to my reputation, abilities & self-esteem which  I was
becoming enraged about; I hadnt considered the possibility that this
too was almost entirely within my own head and not in other peoples.

Dale Carnegie relates in his 'How to win friends and influence people'
book how if we do what we think is right, speak the truth and are
meticulously honest, we'll probably get more unfair criticism,
skullduggery and backbiting to contend with than if we lie, con, cheat
and steal  - so heck, says Carnegie, put up the old umbrella, and let it
all trickle away.

IMHO,  Do what you think is right and realise that the criticism,
ridicule and poison you may receive is most likely not real at all; it's
probably in your own head as a reaction to motives, principles and
situations that dont really exist. If one day you are the laughing stock
of the entire country you may feel there's no point going on, that no-one
will ever take you seriously again & that you'll never shake off the
stigma; in actual fact, it generally only takes a few weeks.

People have better things to do than to dedicate their lives to
analysing someone elses faults and trying to entertain ghoulish
mentalities with gloating sarcasm & ridicule; those that dont are
usually projecting their own insecurity onto others because they dare
not face it themselves. The most notable instance of this I can think
of is the British author David Icke who was reported in the media as
having 'claimed to be the Son of God';

Well, five years on Icke is alive and kicking and making more sense
in his books than anything else I have read. It may have taken that
colossal ridicule which he attracted to let him see as Carnegie did
that that ridicule, like hate, is by and large a manufactured ploy by a
few devious, selfish people who either want to prevent a decent and
honest person from enjoying a good reputation, or just want to project
their own insecurity onto someone else.

 I fear the former has been true of those who have done their
damnedest to prevent people from taking Icke seriously,  but the
extent to which they have failed has been encouraging; Icke is going
roung the United Kingdom relentlessly preaching the truth at people
and telling them that it is THEY THEMSELVES who are responsible
for the mad world we see before us; that it is WE who have created
this reality by giving away our ability to think for ourselves and
letting a few manipulators effectively turn us into robots.

Their latest attempt at discrediting him is a series of  ludicrously
unfair allegations of anti-semitism which are so utterly unfounded it
beggars belief:-
[Icke would not know how to be racist if he took a correspondence course,
has Jewish people funding his book and many others supporting him, and
has made it abundantly clear that he is NOT accusing the Jewish people
of a conspiracy, rather a group of manipulators who are trying to
discredit him by trying to associate anyone who says there is a
conspiracy of some kind with anti-semitism. I expect they'll have a go
at me next, despite the fact that a good number of my friends who agree
with me on all this are Jewish, too.]

 You know, I do believe he's right that we have created this mad
world we see around us; But the one thing which Icke has
said which has convinced me more than anything else that he is right
that WE CREATE OUR OWN REALITY is that he has discovered
the one thing which can build a bridge between the manipulator and
the manipulated, the hater and the hated, the gloater and the victim,
the skeptic and the believer, the Christian and the Jew, the Arab and
the Muslim, between  all of us - LOVE CHANGES EVERYTHING,
says David Icke. As I said, I do believe he's right.

The trouble with statements like 'love changes everything' in my
experience is that most people take one look and just feel disgust and
think ' oh no, not another tree-hugger ' or ' Eeech, one of those hippie
types'. They have pictures in their minds of permissive sex and
flower-power. The trouble is in my opinion that MOST PEOPLE
HAVENT GOT A SCOOBY WHAT LOVE REALLY IS.

I didnt; I had never really felt it up till this year. [I'm 25]; I
thought that I must be pretty uncool and subnormal since I'd never really
managed to have that real feeling of love, but I just didnt know what
it was. The way I found out was rather unusual in that I didnt really
expect it to work - but it DID, and I am still trying to slot the
consequences of  that fact into place.

Love is an energy says David Icke, and again I now do believe he's
right; I had become bitter and cynical about it having realised that on
and off over a period of about ten years or so, I would feel amazingly
good whenever I had an influx of something I now term 'romantic
quality';

Loosely speaking I mean by this that my subconscious mind got
convinced that I had done well with some 'qualified' girl. These
incidents - not that many over the ten year period, but some - caused
me to almost change into a different person.

 I now recognise in a description of the symptoms of hypomania
[from Angela Smythe's book  SAD - 'Winter Depression'] the
characteristics of what I term my 'optimum health state'; thinking
faster, articulating well, noticeable physical improvements, better
agility, both mental and physical, a general state of happiness &
spontaneous wit; what I didnt realise before is that I think it's
actually  a reconnection with my higher self, as Icke describes in his
books.

Optimum Health State
--------------------


SHEER OVERWHELMING POWER

-hugely raised immune system
-thinking 3 or more times faster than normal
-higher level understanding of everything; ability to see the big
picture.
-'jumping' with energy
- hugely greater physical control, agility, poise
- hugely greater control over tone and articulation of voice
- huge shift in body language [speed, precision, assertiveness]
- shift in physical appearance, to do with 'all sorted and satisfied'
look
- huge difference in ease of smiling and laughing
- being generally 'happy' all the time
- ability to make and nail down paradigm shifts.

and more than these, the constant sensation of deep, true love.

How did I find out what Love really is then? The full description of
this is in the manual for my 'Hypnomap' computer aided self hypnosis
program, but I shall briefly summarise.

- I realised that true deep spiritual love is a rare occurrence for most
people, and that I was unlikely to be able to get it without
manipulating my way into it and putting my fingers into the pies of
the system to be able to hold onto it.


- I realised that I could have this love after watching the film 'The
Princess Bride'; just that it wasnt very likely.

- I hypnotised myself into a deep trance with the computer and
planted suggestions that I was in deep true love with my ideal
girlfriend, permanent, eternal, deep, true spiritual reciprocated love.

I did this as an experiment but decided to 'go for the jugular' first
time and go for 'the works' with it, since I had realised from my
experience with the codewords the importance of always going for the
best outcome and using all of my energy and resources in warding off
ambushes and trying to influence my mind; it generally took the sum
of my focussed abilities to succeed, and realising that I actually could
have eternal, deep, true spiritual reciprocated love I went for it. When
I actually got it, just like that, it changed my life totally.


The effects were truly incredible'; The sheer overwhelming power of
the feeling under hypnosis was incredible enough, but when I came
out of trance I was jumping with energy, elated, feeling extremely
happy and able to take on the world. I could spontaneously articulate
exactly what I thought about just about anything, and proceeded to
shock and nonplus a lot of people by doing precisely that in
conversation.

My physical appearance changed, I was thinking so much faster than
before that I was able to completely understand and assimilate what
other people were saying and still having time to articulate my own
responses having taken their opinions almost fully into account - this
makes a huge difference in conversation IMO, since most of us are
usually just waiting for our chance to speak and not paying too close
attention to what the other person is really saying.

I planted suggestions that I would calm, relax and my immune
system would rise also; this worked, and the vitamin C powder I take
- I take 3g a day - may well have something to do with the
effectiveness of it. As it was it was supremely effective, and I was in
my 'optimum health' or  high level state for months. I am back in it
again, having had a relapse in the middle, but the fact that I can
reproduce it despite a relapse has been very encouraging to me in my
efforts to signpost the way to achieve it to other people.

What I have realised very recently after reading Icke's latest book is
that I DONT NEED the other codewords any more. I planted a deep
post-hypnotic suggestion to bring the wave of love I feel for my
?partner? at the utterance of her name; this brings such an
overwhelming wave of love that it makes me feel far better even than
I do at the use of my other codewords.

[Note 15th Feb 1996 - there is something more than post-hypnotic
suggestion going on here, of this I am sure now. The book
'The Celestine Prophecy' takes this further, and I heartily recommend
it.]

I have more than the two I have described here now, I have others
which remove the bad feeling one gets from having made a mistake
and not being able to correct it one has to put up with secondary &
resultant problems and bad events. The codeword removes the
compounded negativity & lets me say  'Be willing to have it so' and
'Take the good out of it' to myself; Most of the time a good, happy
attitude to the mess left by a mistake will negate and cushion most of
the effects of it.

Often it can actually improve the situation to better than things might
have been had the incident not occurred; similarly, negativity, doubt,
guilt and fear can often make things far worse than they originally
were and one can find that although the original mess sorts itself out,
one has created problems which wouldnt have been there if one had
just accepted the original occurences.

What I now do is to use my deep true love trigger to channel love into
myself and into other people whenever their is an incident now. Sure
I might use the other codewords as well, but by using love I can let go
of my doubt, my fear, my guilt; It's OK.

Here then is the twist in my tale; Having read 'Timeline therapy and
the basis of personality' by Tad James and Wyatt Woodsmall, I
learned of the incredible discovery they have made. In Timeline
Therapy,  one can affect the clusters of memories which make up our
?personalities? by under deep trance visualising our timeline and
performing NLP techniques on the memories. That the memories are
clumped together in ?Gestalts? means that the effects are more
powerful than just changing one memory, and the knock-on effect
effectively can change one's entire personality.

That James is right about this I have no doubt now, because I have
read quite a lot of the NLP books now and understand how the
techniques work; I have also used them without realising it in what I
described about my codewords, but the question then is 'does it matter
whether it's NLP, or hypnosis, or social compliance, or anything - if
it works, and we are doing something deeper than that which we are
trying to label? I think it doesnt matter for what we are trying to do.
I also think the powerful insights in Steve Parkhill's book
'Answer Cancer, the healing of a nation' should likewise be adopted
by us all since they are *true*, they *work* and they are *powerful*.
I know this to be true from looking at Steve's ideas and seeing them
at work in myself; this is more important than point scoring and
nihilistic academic discussions of things which dont matter to people's
everyday lives.

The paradigm shifts concerning deep true spiritual love though do
matter a great deal though in my opinion, and it is here in Timeline
therapy that I think the overriding key to reconnecting with our
higher selves, achieving  optimum health or achieving true happiness
- whichever label you want to apply to this, the truth will no doubt
remain deeper than I can here articulate - is; however it will remain the
truth, and again in the same way it doesnt matter which of the labels
is completely accurate here so long as we can have the deep true
spiritual love - and we can, and here's how:-

By using timeline therapy we can alter not only the present to
experience  deep, true, spiritual love but we can also alter our
perceptions of the future - our future memories - [since what we think
we are going to be doing in the future has a major effect on our
subconscious mind, and by altering these 'memories' we alter our
personalities in the same way as when we alter 'past' memories]; we
can float back along our timelines and instead of altering situations
and actions in the ways of NLP, even as I have with my codewords,
we can alter them with the love codeword, suggestion or however else
we experience deep true spiritual love, and alter our timelines with
that.


One of the most important changes IMO is that I am no longer at all
afraid of looking stupid, of being usurped, of looking small or of being
fobbed off; I have deep true spiritual love in my heart & it is going to
last; I have no more fear of these things and I can finally now
understand what Icke means when he says 'Love will build a bridge'; It
has built a bridge for me, and I do believe it will build a bridge for
anyone. But we first of all need to know what it is, and then need to
know how to change ourselves so that we attract it as our reality. And
that ability is what Mr Tad James, Mr Steve Parkhill, Mr James
Redfield, Ms Louise Hay and Mr David Icke have given the world - if we
will but use it.

Coming back then to the start of this tale to the 'It's not my fault'
affirmation which I have clung to for so long, it too has finally
crumbled away; the one thing which I held onto like grim death until
now, which poisoned my whole approach to everyone and everything
I met was the gross unfairness built into the dating game, the game of
'love' upon which in my experience most peoples' lives are based. I
use the quotes advisedly since I dont think most people have any
conception of what real love is - I didnt;

 I think most people have been vaccinated on purpose against the real
thing by the collossal influence of the manipulators Icke exposes in
his books, that they have been encouraged and manipulated into
effectively immunising themselves against real, deep, true.,
unconditional, spiritual love by putting their fingers into one or other
of the pies which taint and warp their motives;these fingers-in-the-pie
spoil and limit the extent of their 'love', since one can never feel true
deep love if it one's 'love' is based on selfishness and insincerity

 If one manipulates and dare I say 'speed-seduces' to get it, that love
which one achieves will never be total and unconditionally
reciprocated -because IT'S NOT REALLY YOU THAT (S)HE
LOVES, IS IT.....it's a false picture which has been created.The
ambush of speed-seduction is a double-bind though because if one
does not take on board the truths nailed down by Jeffries in how
people behave so that speed seduction is necessary to overcome the
ambushes and achieve a manipulated love, one gets just as badly
ambushed as one would if one used it.

The key is IMO to realise that this is going on, admit that Jeffries is
essentially correct with what he is saying, but also realise that one
should only go for the one thing which really is qualified rather than
just available- real deep true spiritual love, and that one can have this
without manipulating OR being manipulated if one is aware of the
truth of what is going on. The  falseness of manipulation and
deviousness  spreads like cancer throughout the whole of many
relationships, since if your partner IS in love with a distorted image
of you then how can you really have unconditional love for them
when they have that core ambush; it taints them too, and wrecks the
other side of the bond of 'love', turning it into a sham and vaccinating
both parties against the real thing.

If we sort ourselves out with deep, true spiritual love first, then
there is no need for manipulation, seduction or any of the other webs
of lies we weave.

I wish to quote a speech in closing this, without revealing the source:

 "My dear beloved people of the earth, we have only love.
  Why not say to yourselves:
 "I am worthy of this love; I am capable of understanding that it is
  boundless, and free, and so very very positive" ;

 Love can build a bridge, and the truth shall set you free -

 It's up to you.

 Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk
_______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:31:15 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: 'Jeffries ideas for nice people' article

Jeffries' ideas for 'nice people' 


In over a year of reading these newsgroups, I managed to avoid being
flamed by Ross up until now. I also have held back until now from
setting forth my own true opinions on the scope of Ross's ideas
and the various things he has nailed down.

This isnt a petty tit-for-tat 'get my own back on Ross because he's
flamed me' article, it is rather a considered opinion built up over
some months and which I have held back from posting, for perhaps too
long.

I kept silent as Ross so unfairly and disgracefully flamed Roy Hunter and
others, partly because I wanted to convince Ross that his ideas have this
wider scope; I still hope that he will realise this but perhaps the time
has come for others to carry these ideas forward, where Ross himself
chooses not to.

Herewith....

---

1. I've been incorporating some of  Ross's ideas recently with a great
deal of success not to seduce women  , but rather to get my own mind into
shape so that I dont get fobbed off. manipulated and cheated by the
various ambushes which they use.

I've found that Ross's ideas have a far wider scope than just in
seduction;

In lecturing and dealing with classes of students, I've realised that the
same principles of manipulation, script behaviours and social games
operate in a great many other spheres of life besides the dating game:-

- student - teacher relationships;
- ordinary friendships;
- boss-employee relationships
- peer-peer relationships in
      -school
      -work
indeed, any kind of social interaction at all.

Eric Berne's 'Games People Play', 'What do you say after you say hello'
and 'Sex in Human Loving' are the treasure troves to plunder here IMO,
along with John Cleese and Robin Skynner's
'Families and how to survive them' and 'Life and how to survive it'
books. Cleese is a unique individual in that being possessed of perhaps
the sharpest wit the world has seen [IMO] he has applied the talents
of his humour to write, along with Skynner, the most common sense
description of why people really do what they do, say what they say and
think what they think, that I have seen.

So, realising that the ambushes the women use are prevalent throughout
all of their lives and used by men too, I set to seeing if the speed
seduction techniques could be adjusted and adapted to achieve success
in more 'politically correct' areas of influence, too.

What I discovered was that they can indeed and in fact will work in ALL
the situations I described, yes ALL of them, giving such an overriding
benefit that the ambushes are easily vanquished and usually crumble with
hardly any  effort at all in the face of the techniques.

Am I talking rot with this? No, but my argument has a subtle twist to it.

In John Grinder's words,

"what you are about to read never happened, but it seems reasonable, even
to me."

2. Just under a year ago now, I had a major bad time with a female & got
rather pissed off, depressed & made myself ill over it. I had the chronic
'nice guy' syndrome Ross talked about, and made most of the classic
blunders a man can make in trying to attract a woman. At the time I had
been experimenting with a computer aided self hypnosis program for the
PC, and had recently done a course in hypnotherapy - I realised that my
bad, bad feeling was so overridingly negative that no amount of telling
myself things were OK with the hypnosis was going to work; it had a far
bigger hold on my subconscious mind than any of the recommended
suggestions for a hypnotherapy session. Being a Christian, I was also a
bit wary of diving in and 'hypnotising the heck out of myself' as I knew
that a softly-softly approach wasnt going to work, and if I was going to
remove the depressing influences it would need to be a sledgehammer
approach.

Thinking about this and how annoying it was, I suddenly realised that the
reason this 'problem' - romantic difficulties having a majorly bad effect
on my subconscious mind and health - was not referred to or discussed in
the hypnotherapy course I had done, or in the hypnosis books I read, or
anywhere that I had seen for that matter, was not because it wasnt
important and not because there was nothing hypnosis could do about it,
but rather because no-one had tried it AND then bothered to tell anyone
what happened, or had dared to stick their neck out and teach people the
IMO fact that romantic involvement has a more overriding effect on the
subconcious mind than anything else.

I would probably have dismissed this realisation as foolish speculation
on my part and a meddling with things I had no business meddling with,
had I not at that exact time discovered the flamewar surrounding Ross
Jeffries on the internet; Ross's ideas fascinated me, since I found
truths and cold, hard facts which I had been wrestling with and losing
the fight against for years, expressed in the framework of NLP techniques
which I already understood, but in a down-to-earth no-nonsense way which
I could immediately implement.

The shock of this took a couple  of days to subside, and I did then dive
in and implemented them. However, I applied one further paradigm shift to
Ross's insights - I realised that I could apply them to myself, without a
partner, and sort out my own mind under self hypnosis without needing to
attempt to seduce anyone. If the plan worked, I would free myself from my
own manipulations and the chronic 'nice guy' syndrome, and would then be
able to re-enter the romantic fray with a self-confident attitude.

I DO feel that the ethics of the situation deserve careful treatment
because the criticisms simply do not apply to my own approach. I only
 use hypnosis on myself, have never tried to seduce anyone & have no
intention of doing so; I require that anyone who wishes to use my own
approach learn ordinary self-hypnosis first or receive a kick-start from
a good therapist.

I expect it will turn out that the real motivation behind some of the
criticism of hypnosis, NLP, SS and my own ideas is not ethical
considerations at all but rather the wish to discourage technical
creativity and mental advancement indited by the Reece Committee report
and described chillingly in the 'Silent Weapons for a Quiet War'
document. Why? Because the skeptics, & their masters would rather people
didnt find out about their own manipulations and that they have
deliberately tried to vaccinate the entire population of the world
against real deep true spiritual love by maintaining the pretence that
manipulation, deviousness and lying are not the real  rulers of our lives
and relationships.

[I am not for a minute suggesting that there is a conspiracy to discredit
Jeffries, he hardly needs one - but the ambushes he has exposed are
very real, and I am indeed suggesting that these manipulators would
try to prevent their demise. 'True Love Changes Everything', IMO - but
only if you arent prevented from finding out what it is or from
expressing it once you find it. ]

In the hypnotherapy course I did  ethical and professional behaviour had
featured highly. but nothing was said about the emotion of love under
trance and references to affecting it hypnotically were made only by
inferring that this and a range of other ideas were things which no
scrupulous therapist would do with a client. I have a great deal of
respect for my teacher and found the course superb, but long having had
a hearty contempt for the real motives and truths behind such
taboos, I set about thinking about whether using self-hypnosis to alter
the effect of romantic involvement on my subconscious mind and
'immune system' would be 'ethically sound', feasible and immediately
practically applicable. I came to the following conclusions:-

- It is perfectly ethical to use self-hypnosis to address one's OWN
romantic feelings; all the taboos and no-no's surrounding love and such
emotions in therapy are from a purely professional standpoint. One can
hardly end up in a compromising situation with oneself!

- With the 'helper' self-hypnosis program I had an immediately
practically applicable means to hypnotise myself and implant suggestions
to effect whatever changes I wanted, were I to decide they were feasible.
- Being somnambulistic, I was able to get into a deep trance with the
program very easily and the relaxing power of it quickly had me hooked.

- The feasibility was the difficult bit. Could I  through hypnosis
overturn the power of the romantic instinct and raise my immune system
despite my woeful state? Could I overpower the hugely negative and
depressing feelings which were weighing my down? I came to the conclusion
that I could not.

- However, I then had a brainwave. One of my favourite films is 'The
Princess Bride', a film which tells a fairy tale the way it really might
have been rather than spouting the usual 'Pollyanna crap' as Ross would
put it . Long cynical about love and relationships, I had thought before
watching this that true love was an illusion, a lie, a fool's castle made
of sand. After seeing it I changed my mind and conjectured that 'true
love' was possible, but just not very likely and certainly not very
likely to happen to me. In the film, the bad guy has a
line that goes "You truly love each other. And so you might have been
truly happy; Not one couple in a century has that chance, no matter what
the story books say. "

I think this is true, actually; I think true love IS a real phenomenon,
but that it doesnt happen very often and certainly wasnt going to happen
to me had I maintained my previous thought patterns.

Anyway, after thinking about this and realising that it WAS possible for
me to feel real deep true love, I thought to myself 'Right - if I'm going
to have a go at this I'm going to have to go for the jugular first time.
These badfeelings are deep, strong and they're not going to entertain a
meagre attempt to dislodge them. I'm going to have to go for the most
powerful suggestions I can think of'.

Now, had I not encountered Ross's evidence, I would likely not
have been sufficiently sure that doing this was ethically sound; my old
picture of romantic relationships was a stifled, chronic nice-guy
syndrome sham which I had convinced myself was the truth and the only way
things could be to make myself feel better as I wallowed in my self-pity,
and I actively wanted any supposed way out of my depressive rut to be
unethical so that I could jealously condemn anyone who threatened my
'It's not my fault' affirmation as being immoral or unethical. It took a
lot to pull me out of that self-perpetuating rut, as I described in my
recent 'Love Changes Everything' article, and without the cold hard facts
nailed down by Ross I dont think I would have made it.

However, make it I did - I told myself under deep trance that:-

- I am deeply in love
- I am deeply in love with my ideal girlfriend, modelled on fantasies of
yesteryear
- that she loves me back the same
- that it is permanent, reciprocated, eternal
- that we love each other to the core, nothing hidden, and that nothing
will ever change that
- that she is gorgeous, beautiful, witty, charming, simply wonderful; and
that she thinks the same of me
- that I will go deeper and deeper in love, and will feel it all the
time, awake and asleep, in trance and out of it
- that my immune system will keep rising and rising
- that nothing can hurt my love; that negative thoughts will dissipate
and not get through; that even if I think negative thoughts they will
have no effect
- that I will always be in deep true love
- a post-hypnotic suggestion linked to her name which brings the wave
of love I felt at the height of the trance; I use this in trance as well
to bootstrap with, and to cause hugely positive mental shifts in any
circumstance.
- a post-hypnotic suggestion to remove the 'broken record' negative
thought trap whereby one sometimes will not stop thinking about something
negative.
Using this usually dissipates the negative thought-train in seconds:
'peace'
- a bootstrap post hypnotic suggstion to bring me down into trance
rapidly-
' back down now'.  Used multiple times it is very effective.

When I came out of the trance, I felt *wonderful*. Jumping with energy,
thinking three times faster than before and just somehow knowing the
answers to many things which had previously perplexed me. Playing the
piano with six finger chords where I had before struggled to get the
melody right; Holding forth in company and conversation where before I
shied away and did not enjoy such interaction; nonplussing people with my
new-found insight and exhibiting all the symptoms described below as my
optimum health state.

SHEER OVERWHELMING POWER
-hugely raised immune system
-thinking 3 or more times faster than normal
-higher level understanding of everything; ability to see the big
picture.
-jumping with energy
-hugely greater physical control, agility, poise
-hugely greater control over tone and articulation of voice
-huge shift in body language [speed, precision, assertiveness]
-shift in physical appearance, to do with 'all sorted and satisfied' look
-huge difference in ease of smiling and laughing
-being generally 'happy' all the time
-ability to make and nail down paradigm shifts.

COMBINATORIAL PROOF
Ever heard of SAD or Seasonal Affective Disorder? Well I had... and
it sounded as though I might have it, when I read the book about a
year back.It mentioned states of elation and depression, and I shall
quote directly from the description of the mania state:-

[Winter Depression by Angela Smythe: Chapter 14, Spring Fever.
Page entitled Recognise the symptoms of mania:-
You feel full of energy, confidence and new ideas, you feel you could
take on the world.

You talk fast, holding forth in company, you make jokes and are witty.

You rush about doing things, you start many projects but dont finish
any of them.

You feel irritated by anyone who does not keep up or who tries to slow
you down

You are disinhibited; you say things which may be embarassing or
hurtful to others without thinking.

You have grandiose ideas about yourself and your abilities

You form new relationships with people you wouldnt normally get on
with.

You look for sexual excitement, a new partner or an affair.

You go to bed late, and wake early.

You dont eat much.

You spend lots of money, regardless of whether you can afford it.
end of quoted passage]

And this is supposed to be a disease????? I read this page with
amusement at first which turned to disbelief when I realised what had
happened, which revelation I have now managed to nail down beyond
reasonable doubt. This isnt describing mania at all, or if it is then
'mania in this caseis in fact just good old optimum health, rearing it's
head in response tosunlight stimulation of the immune system,
subconscious quality & perhaps other causes. There's a presupposed
theme of negativity in the descriptions above - see how I would
describe them in myself, bearing in mind that I'm like this all the time
due to being able to produce the same state of high subconscious
quality and raised immune system:-

You feel full of energy, confidence and new ideas, you feel you could
take on the world. -  Well yes... you do have lots of energy, you do get
the confidence which you ought to have and yes you CAN take on the
world.

You talk fast, holding forth in company, you make jokes and are
witty.

Thinking at least 3 times faster than before IMO, and being able
to come up with jokes accordingly since you have time to think in the
pauses of conversation. Since you can check and refine what you say a
couple of times before saying it and still appear to be replying
spontaneously, you seem sophisticated and witty when you are just
thinking faster than your conversation partner. But this is one of these
unfair uses of the word 'just' - thinking a little faster than the other
makes a huge difference since you effectively control the conversation
and get all the benefit out of it; since we are usually all just waiting
for our chance to speak anyway IMO, this allows us to actually
consider what the other person says [even better if you have a personal
stereo recorder] as well as getting our two penniesworth in. And if we
feel like making jokes, not only do we have time to construct them
before appearing to come out with them spontaneously - which is IMO
crucial -but we can understand why they are actually funny in the first
place by having time for combinatorial thought as well.

You rush about doing things, you start many projects but dont finish
any of them.

Well yes, if you have a useless filing system - because
you come up with lots of deep realisations and fundamental ideas
which could change your life and bootstrap the good feelings, but
which are stifled and forgotten by our rigid sequential habits, terrible
abuse of our brains and memories and the hugely limiting straight
jackets of social quality, disqualification* and all the other ambushes
which prevent paradigm shifts being made. I would be very surprised
indeed if I managed to finish a project without it spawning new and
larger ones in the process these days.

You feel irritated by anyone who does not keep up or who tries to
slow you down

Again, yes- except what Smythe fails to mention is
that this includes almost everyone, and that people will tend to do
almost anything to slow you down or avoid acknowledging that you're
better than 'normal' at what you're doing. That Le Chatelier's
principle of equilibrium - that the system will shift to negate the
effect of any change in balance - applies very well to any attempt at
social recognition, and that the truth of whether or not someone really
is thinking faster and feeling better is usually the last thing
considered.

In fact, it's more than likely IMO that people will say you're suffering
from mania! And they're right, of course...  it's just that it's the
negative facial expressions, tone's of voice and social pressure are the
overriding factor, when in fact in the cold light of day if this effect
is 'just' 'mania', then 'mania' is the best thing since sliced bread IMO.

"You are disinhibited; you say things which may be embarassing or
hurtful to others without thinking."

 Hmmm... maybe, yes- but
mostly as a symptom of annoyance from the realisation that one's
newfound abilities are neither acknowledged nor welcome. And it
is entirely likely that these 'embarassing' or 'hurtful' statements
are symptomatic of a naive attempt at being honest-the greatest
sin against political correctness of them all.

You have grandiose ideas about yourself and your abilities;

They're
only grandiose if they're pie-in-the-sky and wishful thinking.  Usually
they're actually less grand than just the truth about one's full
potential IMO -but because people will do almost anything to stop someone
from wising up and developing their skills anyway, this is a self-
fulfilling prophecy; I guess the ideas are 'grandiose' if one is naive
enough to think that one will be given a fair hearing and chance to
develop one's skills.

You form new relationships with people you wouldnt normally get
on with. Yes, because you 'qualify' in a lot more people's eyes - your
new abilities are attractive and useful. Similarly people who would
have threatened you before are much easier to get on with since one
bypasses the disqualification barrier.

You look for sexual excitement, a new partner or an affair. No
comment!

You go to bed late, and wake early. Yes, because you have more
energy & dont need so much sleep.

You dont eat much."I dont seem to compulsively eat as much - I dont
have chocolate wrapper mountains any more.

You spend lots of money, regardless of whether you can afford
it.

Guilty, but it's usually to fuel one's paradigm shifts; I've spent a lot
on computer stuff and popular psychology books. I think there is a
danger that you get carried away though.

The point then, is that the optimum health state I describe has been
described fairly accurately as the hypomania stage of SAD; and yet I
can have it permanently and as a normal state of health, rather than
a druglike high. I fear that the whole idea of SAD has been victim to a
core level ambush, in that it is not just a strange reaction to light
with highs and lows; it's rather that sufferers are experiencing a series
of periods of lowered subconscious quality, and are sometimes coming up
to near optimum health due to sunlight stimulating their immune
systems through subconscious quality.

The tragedy of it is that the
existing model does not indicate this, and that most sufferers will not
realise that they can be cured via raising the immune system
artificially through hypnosis, and generating optimum health - which
should be normality, and is not a 'mania' or other form of illness - all
year round. However, the fact that the SAD book has nailed down the
very benefits I have produced myself through hypnosis and given them
in an IMO beyond reasonable doubt proof of the associated traits has
allowed me to nail down the validity of what I have been saying with a
combinatorial proof, and for that at least I am very grateful. As a
parting shot on SAD, I would say we are all sufferers - as indeed we
are of non-optimum health until we have achieved control of
subconscious quality.

[* I talk about 'quality' a lot, I mean Robert Pirsig's idea of what
motivates people to do anything:-

biological quality
supercedes social quality
supercedes intellectual quality
dynamic quality
static quality

- I have added 'subconscio

For an understanding of this, read Pirsig's superb book 'Lila' .]

Some of these effects are circumstantial, in that if one is thinking
faster than someone else one is far more likely to be able to use
judgement and control over one's words, body language, tone of voice
etc. and hence the effects and impression one creates are likely to be
vastly different - hence some of these effects are merely byproducts of
the others. But this is exactly my point - all these things are merely
byproducts of the level of ?subconscious quality? perceived by the
subconscious mind. And to kid oneself on that one can achieve them
without considering ?romantic quality?  is IMO the biggest social
quality ambush of them all.

Now I've been saying the above for a while now; what I havent so
far said clearly enough I think is that I think it is entirely necessary
to have an appreciation of the ambushes, techniques and facts which
Jeffries has nailed down in order for one to know what real
unconditional love actually is, and to be able to get the benefits of the
optimum health state all the time rather than at the whim of an intended
partner. ; I know only too well that  the ambushes Jeffries describes
exist - I fell victim to those used by the women for going on ten years,
and was effectively vaccinated by them against real love-  and now having
achieved ?optimum health? I find myself being also the walking proof that
his techniques work too.

Not because I am going round manipulating people [I'm not] and not even
because I am now getting lots of women into bed - but because I have now
been able to understand what real deep true spiritual love is and that
those who manipulate into a relationship can also be just as badly
vaccinated against true love as those who get prevented from getting a
relationship in the first place.

You see, I think it's one of these 'double-bind' situations I keep going
on about where you seem to be 'damned if you do and damned if you
dont'; If you just try and be a nice guy you dont get fed says Ross -
yes, I agree from my own miserable experience of the dating game and from
all the other pieces of evidence I have which point to this being true.
If you use Ross's techniques then you can get fed ?  yes, I agree with
that too. But I no longer *want* to get fed in that way; I have feelings
of deep, true love planted  in my mind which have caused my optimum
health state, reconnection, whatever you want to call it. But without
admitting that Ross is right about the ambushes both men and women use to
manipulate each other with and that my deprivation from and vaccination
against real true love was as much my fault as that of the women I used
to blame it on, I would have kept on lying, conning, cheating and
stealing and bitching about how unfair life is. I would have kept on
trying to manipulate women into going out with me and within those
relationships being false and dishonest for fear of bursting the image
she fell in love with. And this is the crux of my
argument -

"if you manipulate to get love, whether you're a man or a woman, you
set up a false picture in your partner's mind of what you are; they fall
in love with someone who looks a bit like you, apparently has the same
name as yuu, but it's not really you they're 'in love' with. And if they
find that out... well, maybe they'll realise that they 'dont love you any
more'. Or maybe the falseness of the 'love' will prevent it from giving
the sheer overwhelming power of true spiritual love which can cause
the effects I've described as my optimum health state."

So am I claiming to have found the secret of love? Good grief, no. I am
merely reporting what I have seen in myself, in others and in the world
in general and inviting others to examine the cold hard facts themselves.

And so, I hope I have communicated my position on this clearly. I
believe that Ross has indeed nailed the golden goose with his
techniques but that we do not need to use them, rather to assimilate the
paradigm shifts and facts into our own experience and lives. We need
to examine -men and women equally, and I'm not just saying that to
pay lip service to it - whether we know what real love is, have felt the
power and reaped the benefits. I am not suggesting that if people have
manipulated their way into a relationship, however extensively, that
they necessarily need to abandon it and do what I have done.

In fact I reckon
having experienced any kind of love it's probably easier to morph that
into spiritual love than starting from my own position of sheer
ignorance; my idea of 'common ground' says that people dont need to
throw away their previous experience and make huge leaps of faith to
set themselves free from lies and manipulation; all they really need to
do IMO is examine which things one learns are incontrovertibly true in
one's own experience, and accept those rather than playing games of
censorship, disqualification and paradigm maintaining. It really isnt
IMO that hard to find evidence that Jeffries is right about particular
points which are not just convincing, but axiomatically true, so true
it's a joke and so patently obvious to anyone who honestly examines the
facts [over a period of time and keeping notes of real-world situations]
rather than relying on other people's opinions. And it's damned good
practice too for identifying lies and manipulations in all the other
areas of our lives, as well.

Am I proposing Ross as the Messiah then? No, of course I'm not. I dont
know if he realises or even cares whether the things I've said here
are true or not, and he hasnt been terribly enthusiastic about my
ideas so far. This said, David Pascal has shown an insight and a
profound understanding of the principles in the most informative series
of articles I  - and I actually think the whole net - have yet seen;

By admitting that some things are incontrovertibly true beyond
reasonable doubt - in any field, not merely Jeffries ideas -  one can
realise that one doesnt have to throw away one's principles, one's
morals, or make any leaps of faith which one is going to find hard to
justify to one's peers, oneself or any of the guardians of social quality
[Robert Pirsig's idea] ; all one has to do is realise the following
'algorithmic decision making criteria':-

" paradigm shifts such as those proposed by Jeffries are not actually
leaps of faith; they are merely describing something we already know
at the dynamic quality level, but werent previously sufficiently sure of
to be able to iron out the contradictions, inconsistencies and
implications of the facts and hence we shy away from propagating the
evidence, the insights and the intuitive leaps into our other knowledge.

In accepting them once we realise this we are only changing our minds
or reneging on promises and values at the social quality level, not
at the dynamic or intellectual quality levels - the fear which prevents
us from making these shifts is therefore by and large unfounded."

 In cataloguing these and making
the paradigm shifts [ with some help from David Icke and Celestine] I
have been able to understand and experience true spiritual love AND set
myself free from the manipulation. Now if that isnt the best answer to
the speed seduction double bind one could ever find, I'll eat my shorts.

And Ross, this isnt a flame either - I just think you ought to be saying
these things yourself.

My next will be on the hypnosis and NLP perspectives of the book 'Brain
Sex', by Anne Moir and David Jessel.
It's quite a read.

Cheers

Steve Murray


Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk
_______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:32:34 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: 'Computer Aided Self Hypnosis' article 



Computer Aided Self-Hypnosis  (CASH)
----------------------------

1. Intro
2. How it works
3. Speed-reviewing on the PC
4. Author's view
5. Future developments
6. References


Introduction
------------

Ten years ago the PC could have been likened to an expensive typewriter or
a calculator with graphics; Although there have been many attempts to
use it as a direct mental aid over the years, these projects have invariably
been thwarted by a lack of speed, storage, graphics quality & the limited
distribution & ownership of hardware & software. In the last two years
there has been a revolution in all these areas, and the cybernetic
age has dawned.

Computer based speed-reading or 'Photo-reading' is now a reality, with
achievable speeds of up to 690,000 words per minute. Understanding of the
subconscious mind's ability to process 2 Million pieces of information per
second & the operation of the left-brain & right-brain during the information
dump has opened exciting new possibilities for assimilation of information
& accelerated learning. [from documentary by UK hypnotist Paul McKenna]

In self-hypnosis, the PC has an application which has been waiting for it
for decades. In heterohypnosis, the client has the full benefit
of the therapist's experience, the luxury of being able to sit back
& relax fully & the security of knowing that the therapist can & will
intervene however much it is necessary to keep the session on course.
In self-hypnosis, one can sorely miss these advantages. The PC can now
give enough of them to the self-hypnotist to make a real improvement in
trance depth, speed of induction & take a great deal of the work off
of the human's shoulders.

Powerful though it is, CASH is not a magic wand - it works best if used
as a supplement to normal self-hypnosis & preferably guidance from a good
therapist; Unfortunately people can view it as they might a computer game
& not having read the instructions, get no-where & conclude that it &
all hypnosis isn't worthwhile. CASH should not be used as anyone's first
experience of hypnosis, but rather as a means to 'get back down' to an
already achieved level of trance where effective suggestions can be given;
it's highly beneficial for one's long-term success with CASH to have a
good random-access presuppositional post-hypnotic suggestion implanted
prior to using it, which can be used to rapidly deepen trance in say
5-10 minutes rather than an initial half-hour induction which might otherwise
be needed. By far the best way of achieving this is to visit a good
hypnotherapist & obtain the benefit of their experience, wisdom & advice
for one's first induction which are worth their weight in gold.


How it works
------------
CASH uses a simple rectangle-based 'hypnospiral' effect to trick the brain into
trance. Concentric rectangles are displayed on the screen starting from the
border, until there is only a small box remaining in the centre of the
screen unfilled. These rectangles are then overwritten with the background
colour in the same order, again starting from the border, until they have
all been erased. At this point a two or three word suggestion phrase is
flashed up in the box in the centre of the screen. This whole process
usually takes between half a second to a second, depending on the speed
setting. The effect sets up a paradox for the left-brain between seeing
a tunnel effect, with squares flying off into the distance, and seeing
the 'real' drawing which is of course just concentric rectangles. This
has the same effect as the 'hypnospiral' device hypnotists may use to
aid an induction, whereby one looks into a rotating spiral drawing &
can see a similar paradox.

The left brain is essentially tricked into trance by the effect & there is
a strong influence to focus on the words in the centre of the box, which
comprise the induction. A tone from the PC speaker can also be played, timed
to coincide with the flashing up of each suggestion.

To deepen trance during the induction the following devices are used:-

- the tone gradually deepens in pitch, with suggestions to 'follow it down
deeper and slower' used to provide an automatic trance-deepener.

- the whole effect itself gradually slows as the induction progresses,
coupling with suggestions to slow breathing & go down deeper and slower;
this provides another automatic trance-deepener.

- post-hypnotic suggestions to quickly come down to the previously attained
trance depth can be used. 'Bootstrap' post-hypnotic suggestions can also
be used, viz. those which deliberately produce the effects of deep trance
at the beginning of the induction with a view to speeding up descent
into deep trance; particularly effective in this regard are suggestions to
immobilise & numb one's body during the induction.

After the induction phase is over, the suggestion phase can be used to
implant suggestions pre-programmed by the user. The Ericksonian technique
of using these throughout the induction as well can be particularly effective
if the induction & suggestions are deliberately matched.




Speed-reviewing on the PC
-----------------------
Speed-reading whilst in trance can be achieved via the PC even in a
deep or somnambulistic trance since no page-turning is necessary; the
program can be set up to seamlessly perform induction-suggestions-speed-read
phase. Recall of information speed-read in is not verbatim, but one will
just 'know' some of the answers to questions on material read.

A potent application of this is to review one's own material rather than
other peoples'; the British author Tony Buzan has outlined the astonishing
fact that those who review information after 10 mins, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week,
1 month, 1 year will recall ~75% of it permanently in their long term memory,
whilst those who do not will forget 80% of the content permanently within
24 hours. However, most people [including myself] who realise this don't
do anything about it, because the workload required to review everything
 in this way is daunting. This is tragic, since the difference it would
 make is clearly immense; perhaps CASH can now offer a solution.

By using Buzan's mind-mapping technique to take notes & using the
Radiant Thinking techniques outlined in 'The Mind Map Book' & 'Use Your Head',
one can drastically reduce the cost of doing these reviews. However, the
paper mountain is still likely to be prohibitive; With computer mind-mapping,
we can finally have everything nicely at our cross-referenced finger tips.
By maintaining a database of computer mind-maps, one can essentially
'cheat' by doing one's reviews as follows:-

1. Each time one adds a new mind-map, perform a cross-reference with all
the other mind-maps in the database which are related. A primitive
implementation of this is to pull out those which contain the same words.

2. Add these mind-maps to a list of those to speed-read

3. Use a CASH session to speed-read the whole map collection;

This system essentially releases one from having to review information
put into the database normally, since it is done for free when one adds
new information.

4. Periodic speed-reviews of the entire database can be used
to review those which arent being pulled out in normal runs.


Benefits of CASH versus normal self-hypnosis
--------------------------------------------

CASH performs a 'direct' induction, allowing the conscious mind to be free of
the induction script and perhaps to devise workarounds to particular problems
which may occur, e.g. blinking, scratching, negative thoughts etc.

After a few sessions, one does not need CASH to be able to achieve deep
trance quickly; for those who have difficulty in memorising, it's also very
hard NOT to learn the induction by heart after a lot of sessions.

'Sync'- using a modular induction, i.e. one which repeats the same phrases
again and again, one doesnt need to worry about falling out of sync
since one will be back on track at the beginning of the next module. By
carefully making sure there are no phrases in the induction which depend
on others having been already acted on, the automatic trance deepening
influence of the hypnospiral effect, the falling tone & the slowing of the
whole program as one 'goes down', synchronising is made unnecessary. This
can be particularly helpful to people who are stifled in their self hypnosis
attempts by falling out of sync with a tape or their own suggestions.

One is empowered to address one's own innermost private problems and
encapsulate one's own paradigms and beliefs in the suggestions rather than
someone elses. The explosion in popular psychology books & knowledge
of the mind shows no sign of abating, & CASH allows one to implement
one's own paradigm shifts in an induction without generating ethical
problems. Some examples:-

boosting the immune system using vitamin C powder combined with direct
suggestions;
subliminal tapes / baroque music / light therapy combined with CASH;
speed-reading / mind-mapping applications combined with CASH;

None of these things pose ethical problems if done with CASH, but might
pose difficulties for a therapist not sharing the same views as the
client on the advisability of these pursuits.

Somnambulism - CASH can produce a somnambulistic trance in those able to
achieve this depth of hypnosis. The plenary trance may be achievable
as the technological advances continue , using voice trained recognition,
biofeedback & virtual reality combined with the PC; in fact it's probably
feasible with existing technology.

'Rhubarb' principle; By automating all the 'donkey-work' of an induction
& using subtle trance deepeners, one can remove the effect of one's
state of mind prior to the induction on it's success;
Termed the 'rhubarb* principle' this is the criteria that even if the user sits
and thinks and mumbles about rhubarb throughout the entire induction there
is still a good chance they'll get hypnotised. This takes the pressure off
of people who's terror at messing things up invariably causes them to do
just that, and allows them to relax in the knowledge that they cant do
anything wrong, fall out of sync, fail to comply etc.[It is highly advisable
to get an experienced therapist to implant such positive attitudes beforehand
so as not to have to encounter these fears at all.]

* [The word 'rhubarb' is frequently used by actors to give the sound of
conversation whilst on stage. Having to think of interesting things to
say could take their minds off of their lines & detract from their
concentration, when all that is really needed is the apparent sound
of conversation. Repeated mumbling of the word 'rhubarb' to each other
achieves this rather well;

The illustration in terms of CASH here is that
the user doesnt need to do anything other than sit there and watch the
screen. Normally they would have to think of the induction script &
keep their mind focussed on trance deepening & their suggestions; Mumbling
rhubarb constantly wouldnt achieve much in the way of trance. With CASH one
can quite happily sit there mumbling 'rhubarb' to oneself &  still
get hypnotised due to the automatic trance deepeners & the hypnospiral
effect. This in itself takes the pressure off since if one can do that,
then there is no need to worry about messing up the induction or falling
out of sync etc, and one can use one's conscious mind for positive effect
during the induction without fear of messing up.]

Author's view
-------------

My own experience of CASH began with the HELPER self-hypnosis program;
by boosting my immune system directly & also by taking vitamin C powder
as recommended by Dr Linus Pauling, my health drastically improved to the
level I now term 'optimum health'.

    Immune system has fundamental effect on speed of thought, health,
    happiness, intelligence, articulation, confidence,assertiveness, to
    physical noticeable manifestation in manner, attitude and even pheromones.

    Maintainable and no-cost state; not a damaging drug-induced high.
    In fact 'normal' states of lowered health are the damaging, neural
    connection breaking and long-term problem causing acute mental shifts.

    Should be the norm and departures into particular problems should
    be seen as illness, not coming back to normal.

    Attempting to improve peoples' health without affecting immune response
    like offerring chalk and rests in the absence of the cue.


I don't think it would have been nearly as effective if I
hadnt learned hypnotherapy & read a lot of hypnosis & self-hypnosis
books to find out exactly what's going on - the knowledge of exactly
what I'm doing is crucial IMO to my confidence and willingness to comply
with my own suggestions.

My own 'Hypnomap' program is available as GNU freeware - it is an ongoing
project, but currently the hypnosis functions are good enough to produce
the effects I have described. The mind-mapping & speed-reading aspects
are shortly being upgraded from their current very basic implementation.

The original 'HELPER' program is available too, this does not allow one to
slow it down for faster machines but is integrated into one package.

For both programs I strongly recommend reading Thomas Cox's excellent
shareware book 'The Pilgrim's Guide to Hypnosis', also available on the web.

[For how to get these see references ]


References
----------

Paul McKenna's documentary on hypnosis for UK TV;

Autohypnosis, Ronald Shone [Thorsons, 1986];

Hypnomap & Combinatorial Psychology, Steve Murray 1995 [GNU freeware]

'HELPER' self hypnosis program, Leslie Schmit 1988     [shareware]

Pilgrim's Guide to Hypnosis, Thomas Cox, 1995 [shareware]

alt.hypnosis archives at hypnosis.com

Web addresses:-

Pilgrim's Guide to hypnosis         http://www.freenet.ufl.edu/~hypnosis
Hypnosis home page (everything!)    http://www.hypnosis.com
Steve Murray's page                 http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~murrays/
Hypnomap program                    gopher://ftp.dcs.gla.ac.uk/users/murrays/
lots of programs                    gopher://hypnosis.com/pub

The usenet newsgroup alt.hypnosis is also a very useful source of information.

Future developments
--------------------

The future for computer hypnosis holds exciting possibilities; the integration
of speed-reading, mind-mapping, large-scale information retrieval &
cross-referencing via the World Wide Web & CD-Roms, Combined TV-quality
interactive video & audio, voice trained recognition & optical character
recognition, the list goes on... combining all these is feasible with present
technology & the mind boggles to think what will happen in just a few years
time with the ever advancing speed & power of the machines. Yours going
'back down now' ....

Steve Murray
_______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:35:26 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. Comments: cc: sfuze@sunspot.tiac.net Kyra, Pleased to meet you! >I appreciate Pirsig's books (Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, >Lila)... Other books I find interesting are those by Thomas Moore (CARE OF THE SOUL and SOUL MATES), Umberto Eco (Foucault's Pendulum & Brotherhood of the Rose), and books discussing meditation. >I like the repartee here, and the general quality that is so deficient now >on the net -- an ability to create art with words instead of believing >that the net (every part of the net) should be open to any and everything. Ah! A reference to QUALITY ... I've come to much the same conclusions and have now unsubscribed to most of my other lists. This one shows much promise and so I am willing to invest more of myself in the list. >If you are looking for a lurker to this list, I can be that. > >If you are looking for a participant, I would enjoy being that. And the group grows by another who values and cherishes the community of authentic/genuine dialogue. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:35:58 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: PSYBER Re: A friend goes digital Hello Regina, Pleased to be one of those who welcomes you to Psyberia. You mention in one of your posts: RG>By way of introduction, I maintain a web site that is devoted to RG>emotional wellness and provides as a data base of resources relevant to RG>mental health issues, as well as a literary zine focused on emotional RG>issues. I will make sure to visit your site in the near future as it does sound interesting. RG>I had hoped to lurk a while a first to get a feel for the discussion, RG>and don't really have a starting discussion. Perhaps you'd like to download the recent archives to see where we've been since the expansion to this list on March 26th. If you'd like to have these archives, just give me a shout and I'll forward them. I do think that we've some interesting threads in the web of our discussions. Again, welcome to our world. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:36:05 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. MK>a list is the primary form of a seminar - a sowing device MK>Responses are like seedlings - dialogs are loving acts of gardening MK>(perhaps each other)... Mila, I love your imagery! Who would have thought that serious discussion regarding the psychology of a list/listserv could be so well expounded upon by poetic prose? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:36:16 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Language and communities Marah (and Psyberfolk), Letters such as Marah's cause me to worry a bit. I do know what silence does and understand the hurt and pain that comes with the silence (Mila, you expressed this well in your response to Marah). I try to be inclusive in my participation here, but I don't respond to all posts, especially if my life on this side of the screen is busy. Please do know, Marah, that your presence is a welcome event for me. MR>This ego stroking session is taking place because I have posted to this MR>list and no one has bothered to respond or include me (why should i not MR>lurk if this is the treatment I get?). Is my material not interesting MR>enough? Are you not seeing my posts amongst the other 20-30 per day. Do MR>you not understand words under 9 sylables? ;) I know it must be MR>something. If you want to know why I lurk , it's because I try to make MR>contact and I am not engaged. Yes, I did get your post of April 8 (a lurker speaks), and I'm glad that this list is a place in which you want to be lurking and/or speaking. MR>Isn't it true that part of community building is the formation of MR>language? I love hearing all the internet and psyber and psycho bable. Every dialogue, every conversation is a restructuring of language. We recreate language as we clarify, negotiate, and build new metaphors to arrive at a semblance of understanding --- a communion. MR>If we insist that evceryone use plain simple english (american MR>or english or whatever other language of choice) then we flatten our MR>landscape. (is gentrify the right word) Simple English (or French for that matter) is the most difficult language to use of all the choices open to us. It may take more words as one of our colleagues here has pointed out (who?), or it may not. What it does demand that we speak clearly, honestly. MR>Is there possibly a way that we can celebrate our diversity and also not MR>lose half the people out there? (several times posts have gone way MR>over my head. Little by little I understand more of what is going on MR>by referencing and by sheer immersion) I don't think we can take on the responsibility for the choices others make. If one follows the threads here, one sees an incredible diversity in both tenor and tone. There are individuals who find a smaller group *within* for which they have an affinity. Diversity is present and alive. Those who chose to leave have reasons that are created by themselves and not by this group. I have yet to hear anyone to tell another to leave no more to return. Silence on the part of a lurker is a choice made by the lurker. Taking the courage to give the voice its moment satisfies a need to speak, a choice. Marah, thaks for the prod. I hope to hear from you again. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:35:50 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Structure Hi Walter, Just a few thoughts about structure. But, before I mention them, I want to confirm your metaphor of a *mall*. Perhaps I can add to it with the sidewalk cafe as found in Europe (Paris), those little windows to a passing world in which our peers of a not-so-distant past sat and commented to each other and built their canvases of words and oil. One problem with this metaphor however, is the lack of potential interactivity between those passing by and those listening, watching, lurking. >It does not bother me that people read & do not write on this list -- >to add to our list of list metaphors -- this one is the mall -- not >everyone shops -- but the foot traffic is great. A great place to >meet and lurk! Do a bit of people watching. >However: I am >interested in developing on line "groups" where there is tight >structuring & fixed numbers -- where people agree to abide by the >structures of the group -- such as responding to the facilitator / >leader's prompts -- eg: Lets hear from everyone about one feeling & >one thought that comes up as you face the screen & think of this >group. Can we try this? I, too, feel that this is possible. However, I think that those who don't form part of this group could be allowed to lurk. The game process showed this interaction between Charles and Steven, however I did notice that I did speak up at one point, and that you did the same. Did that influence the dynamics of the game in a negative sense? in a positive sense (any comment from either Steven or Charles?)? It would be an ideal time to experiment with *group* work. Please include me in the process. >I have participated in an on >line reading group that IMHO suffered from a lack of structure -- and >hence ground to a halt. It could happen here, though I doubt it will >as _whatever happens_ it is always on topic to discuss what is or is >not happening ! Structure is important. Commitment is important. Focus is important. And, as you mentioned, dialogue as it happens within these contexts, is always on topic. About topics, what about dream work, a game, or focused discussion on a particular author/book? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:39:18 -0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List Comments: MiNet - Maritime Internet Services - 506-652-3624 From: Mark Paciga Subject: Re: PSYBER Re: A friend goes digital >My name is Regina and I am new to the list, no comments yet, but a >suggestion from another group in which I participate that had the same >problem. We all include a part of the listserv name in the subject line so >messages are easily scanned and dealt with in a timely manner as to business >or pleasure. I.e. PSYBERNET RE: etc. I subscribe to 8 lists, and this was getting to be a problem for me as well. I see you're still using Eudora 1.44. My solution was to upgrade to version 2.2, which filters all my incoming mail automatically. Saves a ton of time. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Mark Paciga (pacman@mis.nb.ca) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2826 (very much under construction) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I am not responsible for what nonsense my mind produces. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:29:17 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Guy Fielding <100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: PSYBER: re Structure [was: Re: Some more reflections??] Hi Walter: some responses to your comments on my responses..... NGT...sorry about the jargon...NGT=Nominal Group Technique, which is a technique for structuring face-to-face problem solving group discussions. I think its quite well known, but if people are intersted I can provide some references to sources, plus email people with some stuff I've written about the technique and why its useful. One of the intersting things about NGT is that (I think) it has been used by some of the early people looking at computer conferencing as the basis for organising conferencing software (eg Roxanne Starr Hilitz??) Don't know enough about this, but could find out more if you're intersted. Intrigued by your ideas about introducing "different rules" for running groups over the Net...but need to think some more about the implications. Regards GUY Your mesage was: *Hi Guy *> They also reproduce it *> in the sense that the only way to break its operation in face-to-face *> groups is to impose very strict structuring of participation (eg rules *> used in NGT, parlimentary debate), and I think that some researchers *> have devised similar strict rules for managing contributions to cmc *> (researcher at University of Alaska??? was developing software of *> this kind back in the early 80's???). * *NGT? * *It does not bother me that people read & do not write on this list -- *to add to our list of list metaphors -- this one is the mall -- not *everyone shops -- but the foot traffic is great. A great place to *meet and lurk! Do a bit of people watching. However: I am *interested in developing on line "groups" where there is tight *structuring & fixed numbers -- where people agree to abide by the *structures of the group -- such as responding to the facilitator / *leader's prompts -- eg: Lets hear from everyone about one feeling & *one thought that comes up as you face the screen & think of this *group. * *I have been intrigued by the game process that Charles has introduced *as it structures process beautifully. Structure provides freedom to *express -- the canvas for the painter. I have participated in an on *line reading group that IMHO suffered from a lack of structure -- and *hence ground to a halt. It could happen here, though I doubt it will *as _whatever happens_ it is always on topic to discuss what is or is *not happening ! * *I am hoping we can explore many options and structures and report back *here. * * *Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:20:49 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Lists and Differences Guy, Finally, I have an opportunity to speak with you. In the following: GF>Several previous posts have struggled with the tensions caused by GF>different dialects (academic-ese vs vernacular) and commented on GF>the excitement of the enormous variety of different kinds of people GF>and associated perspectives/styles who are posting to this list. GF>Maybe there is an important point here, GF>which is that communication is possible because of what we already GF>share (language, culture, existing knowledge) but it is worthwhile GF>because of the differences (what we don't already share). I think that you need to consider that some of those things that we seem to share are in fact things which separate us (language, culture, existing knowledge). What we do all have in common are communication experiences and *contexts* whithin which we frame our understandings, *contexts* that are for the most part universal in the western world. I agree with your thesis that it's the differences that strike us and draw attention. Differences are valued as mirrors that reflect our own unknown aspects of self. As the French as so often quoted as saying, "VIVE LA DIFFERENCE!" GF>If the differences don't exist, aren't big enough, there is no or GF>little point in communicating. The "trick" is to get the right GF>balance, and one of the things this list has been discussing/working GF>out is how to manage that balance. One way it is managed is by GF>people simply "dropping out", another is by people working out GF>a new, shared dialect (and related rules of conduct) (and maybe GF>"lurking" is partly about people doing that learning, and getting GF>up confidence to produce as well as receive..just as we can often GF>understand a foreign language before/better than we can speak it). A great analogy, the learning of a second language. When we approach the understanding of being a lurker in this way, we give the lurker a subjective quality rather than an objective quality, we also give the lurker some respect. >I've been involved in setting up student exchanges, and the slogan >I've coined for our exchange programmes is that "the similarities >(between university programmes) make exchanges possible, the >differences make them worthwhile". It seems to me that that notion >applies equally well to communication, and explains some of the >excitement of list-conversation. I've been involved in a number of international excursions with students who did manage to grow because of the differences even though they thought the differences *dumb* at first. By the end of these educational forays into other dimensions of human culture and space, my students came to value these same *dumb* differences. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:20:54 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Language and communities Hi again Mila, What a way to encourage someone to speak out! MK>Complete silence *entitles you* to write on *any* topic *you* choose - MK>no matter how gaga or exotic - as long it's *formally* embeddable into MK>"psyberspace". For example, a valid reaction on *complete silence* could MK>be telling a faerie-dream in which characters such as myself or others MK>you're perceiving onstage here are transformed in your favourite pets or MK>flowers or whatever things you like or dislike. Just add a bit action to MK>the scenery you composed thus - and you bet they'll respond in all MK>tonalities they avail. I like the idea of a faerie-dream (something tells me that Walter would enjoy this wuite a bit as well). This might be what is needed by some in their exploration of the *psychology* of a listserv. MK>Writing this onlist is meant as a threat from me to act MK>correspondingly, if I'd feel neglected (I own 3 wonderful cats - one to MK>impersonate Robert...). And what does this alter-ego cat do to impersonate moi-meme? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:26:43 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Structure a comment... > Can we try this? I, too, feel that this is possible. However, I >think that those who don't form part of this group could be allowed to lurk. >The game process showed this interaction between Charles and Steven, however >I did notice that I did speak up at one point, and that you did the same. >Did that influence the dynamics of the game in a negative sense? in a >positive sense (any comment from either Steven or Charles?)? YES, the interjections during the game were essential, rewarding, and among the greatest gifts revealed by the game's process/progress. Stephen *** "Don't be afraid to go out on a limb. That's where the fruit is." _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:29:20 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: The Dawn and the songs of morning Psyber folk, >Diversity is present and alive. >I said "I can't be bothered " The first line is from the prolific Robert de Cyberie. The other line is from Josh On, whose second post I rather enjoyed. Why do I put these two statements together? I'll attempt to relate a simple experience I had today. I wish I could use the English language more beautifully, but it doesn't take a wise man (or woman) to figure out that what I say is truth. I awoke earlier than usual today and always before the dawn on workdays. As I lay in bed awake, I listened to the sounds of morning: the dim background of machine noise, that traffic din that would increase over the hours until reaching a peak at rush hour. But, the sound that was most distinctive was the repetitive sounds of bird songs. I remember on certain mornings, I would hear a single bird sing and, as if on cue, others would join in. Sometimes, I would just lay in bed, the seconds stretching into minutes, listening to the songs of different birds because the sounds were so clear and beautiful. And surprisingly, the most beautiful songs of all came from one bird, the mocking bird. Now, what does this story have to do with anything? The joint melody of bird songs symbolizes the diversity of all of us in this place. The increasing machine noise, that includes the material concerns of our everyday lives, making a living, academic competition, propagation of self philosophy, whatever else that keeps us from paying attention to other things of life. The mocking bird represents the idea that, "It doesn't have to be truth to form beautiful sounds." Diversity. Let it be. Listen to the songs. Don't drown out the sounds of diversity with your cold noise if you don't agree with someone's point of view. Keep your righteousness in check. Quit trying to be someone's father or mother with the mindset that you know what is right and true and good, that others with whom you disagree are wrong or evil. You could choose not to hear this message like the ignorance when we sleep through the sounds of morning. John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:56:55 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Back My ISP shifted and it has been almost 24 hrs since i have been able to log on -- but it is all go now! w _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:57:11 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: codes, contexts, dialogues, and netsex In-Reply-To: <960410160648.6860@charlie.usd.edu> Susan, Great to be able to just sit down at the kitchen table with you . . . I recall you saying you taught rhetoric. Is that a particularly North American subject? I have only come across it in Zen & the Art OMCM which cropped up in another post here . . . > [Charles] posting was rich with examples and led me to > wonder whether list conversations, because they potentially bring in a wider > range of coders and hence codes than we typically meet in our face-to-face > interactions, might lead us to create/construct codes which might be more > inclusive and tolerant of one another. We each serve as teachers/mentors to one > another in offering new codes, new metaphors, new contexts--and go away richer > for it. Hmm -- we are also able to select more carefully who we relate to -- many people come and go on this list -- since 6 April 20 have left and 10 have joined. Perhaps this means we are in a place that is forever becoming more uniform. Oh, and no, I dont take it personally, you asked a while back -- there is a core who have stayed for a long time and that core is building -- i think it is good to have people pop in have a snoop, and pop out if it is not for them. > Jurek's consideration of context made me think of works by Kenneth > Burke--Burke talks about words as being shorthand for a context, for the fuller > drama of an action within a situation. Words thus can be labels for a whole > complex of action, motion, emotion--and may capture different aspects of the > same scene depending on our perspective. Can you relate that to our work here? I think of this list being a context -- created by the raw materials of hard & software -- and Internet norms, and the specific list description and structure. Even a small change, in any of these would influence the content. Do you mean PSYBER-L (as a word) is shorthand for this context? > I think the struggle with > moving from the know of F-T-F into technically mediated interactions is part of > what we are collectively trying to figure out here. I see that as one major focus -- certainly of interest to me. As a an individual and group psychotherapist I want to move part of my practice into this incredible medium -- but the shift is more than I expected -- one can’t "repackage" the f2f into an online form -- this medium will demand its own form and I want to hear that call! I hope that this list will help us hear it. > I taught a class last term (Sept. through December) that was > "networked;" in other words, it was taught in multiple sites. [snipped -- great description of an important project] > I taught eventually from all three sites and that made a huge > difference in interaction--teasing seemed easier, which extended to interaction > between people in all sites, once I had met people face to face. Indeed, the > biggest challenge relationally was in keeping the people in Rapid City feeling > connected since I only got out there once. I have toyed with getting the Psybernet Small Groups (for a fee) -- off the ground by having a local f2f meeting -- and then follow-up with email and more f2f. I love the internationality of the Internet -- but so far I need to work f2f to earn my way. I expect it might be the moving from the f2f to the unknown that is part of that. > If immediacy is important, how can it be created when the video and audio > channels aren't even there? Are people more satisfied with lists that somehow > create a sense of immediacy? Is there an immediacy of the soul that can be > conveyed through strokes on a keyboard? I am still at your kitchen table -- I feel a little hesitant not having been invited, but I feel enough of your warmth to know that we are connecting -- we share a real enthusiasm for the potential of facilitation via new media and have different experiences to share -- I feel enthusiasm for that and sense that it is mutual . . . more . . . I pick up on many aspects of your background and culture and while I am in New Zealand -- it is familiar -- you mention Goffman & it is one of those code words Charles spoke of -- I did not do sociology at uni -- but I recall coffee table conversations about it -- haven't read it -- but brings back those I970 discussions, . . . I know you know what I mean. OK, perhaps I am a little off beam . . . it would be too much to call this immediacy of the soul . . . but a couple of emails is taking us into that direction. What do you think? > [Robert] also positied, drawing from T. Moore, I think, > that "every dialogue that is authentic is sexual in nature." Maybe this relates > to an immediacy so close that we feel one with each other--unified in spirit, > at least for a moment. I am reading your post and replying as I go and had not read what is coming up . . . now in my "immediacy mode" I am asking "is _this dialogue_ sexual in nature?" (And I hear Laurel / Dolores say -- of course it is !) I am conscious of that aspect -- especially the sitting at the table uninvited seemed to involve some personal space issues and gender issues. > Mila said that "dialogs are loving acts of gardening > (perhaps each other)" (wow, how beautiful these images from Robert and Mila > are). Perhaps we are gardening intimacy through authenticity. It does touch > something physical also--despite the criticisms of intellectualizing as sterile > and full of bullshit, to be honest, I find that intellectual discussions that > create involvement, draw people in, draw me in -- mentally, emotionally, > physically. The passion which Charles describes as guiding his discussion of > codes is a real passion. Ah well -- stronger feelings now! I seem to have intruded into another relationship -- brings up a whole swag of associations, some withdrawal too . . . a withdrawal from the _heightened_ immediacy! > The physical sensations of an intense discussion, one > which leads to new ways of thinking and knowing about ideas, are as real and as > powerful as sexual eperiences. The high in a meeting of the minds is every bit > as rich as the high in a meeting of the bodies. as powerful or as high . . . but perhaps sexual in some way in their own right? I want to entertain that idea . . . it is a bit freudian really . . . everything is sexual it can become absurd. For all the immediacy and feeling associations, the pleasure i have is more about the delight of being met in some of the other chakaras. >.Now, lest I make myself too > ulnerable in this sharing of insight (it's feeling a bit chancy here), let me > shift . . . I share that feeling . . . > this to the idea of netsex introduced by Laurel/Dolores. Yes -- and firmly -- if awkwardly on our agenda -- quite a topic for a list that is explicitly into _experiential learning_! > This all comes > back down to the notion of immediacy and dialogue on the net--an issue that we > are exploring both in words and in our relationships as they build in this > little corner of psyber-space. I find it satisfying when you and others too, are able to mirror back so crisply one of the purposes of this list -- one I spent energy on expressing in a few words and ensuring was encapsulated in the list description. I am pleased to see it is happening. All for now, Walter PS > --and now, I must be off--I am supposed to be > commiting to paper an analysis of the archetypes for relationships as found in > "Beauty and the Beast" and have dallied long enough. Get it done? _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:57:26 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == PSYBER-L FILES and ARCHIVES == == PSYBER-L FILES and ARCHIVES == To get files and archives email LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM In the body of the email write: INDEX PSYBER-L. You can then issue GET commands to the same listserv address. For example GET PSYBER-L.DESCRIPT That will give you the list description. The logs of the list can be sent to you via email in the same way. GET PSYBER-L.LOG9603 for March etc. all the best with it Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:42:27 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Mail Management [Was PSYBER Re: A friend goes digital] In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960411213918.0068bbd4@mis.nb.ca> All: > > We all include a part of the listserv name in the subject line so > >messages are easily scanned and dealt with in a timely manner as to business > >or pleasure. I.e. PSYBERNET RE: etc. > > I subscribe to 8 lists, and this was getting to be a problem for me as well. > I see you're still using Eudora 1.44. My solution was to upgrade to version > 2.2, which filters all my incoming mail automatically. Saves a ton of time. == Filtering mail == Getting the software to do the filtering is the answer, it is not practical to train all users to add certain codes. Agent by Forte & Pegasus also do this essential task. == Digest == For those where these packages are not an option getting PSYBER-L in a daily indexed digest may be a better option. Email LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM In the body of the email write: SET PSYBER-L DIGEST == Threads == If your package has a 'read by thread' option, that may help in following a particular line of interest. The subject header (excluding the Re: is used for this sorting) Note when posting how keeping the subject heading the same for a particular discussion helps those who use the thread system. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:59:38 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Language and communication To: XMeff@AOL.COM Actually, grammatically correct you should have heard referred to it as "insanitas germanica" (insanitas, -atis, fem.). I am glad that you did not hear "insanitas teutonica"! BTW, can you provide a reference (Journal article or book) where this expression is used ? Insanely laughing, WFS _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:13:43 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. In-Reply-To: Kyra, > I am me. At one point in time I was many me's. Currently I am a student > (in both the literal and proverbial sense of the word) in psychology (and > in life), working towards my Doctorate in Psychology from a Masters in > Social Work. One of the themes I have wanted to come join in with here is the one of multiple on line identities and their authenticity, the degree to which they are a form of deception and so on. I have several interests in this. One of the most powerful on line experiences I have had was in a list (echo on a BBS) called ALTERWORLD -- it was an anonymous we were anonymous and could write using any name or address -- I liked it because we could indulge in our multiplicity and also in anonymity, yet this being overt and the focus of the list there was no sense of secrecy or betrayal (there was a problem in the way it all ended -- another story). I am interested in more of that sort of list. (All in its time) Another reason for my interest is that as a psychotherapist I have worked with several MPD clients (now called DID Dissociative Identity Disorder -- I prefer Adaption which is what some push for -- though all labels are problematic) Some of the best and most rewarding work I do. I rarely speak of it as it arouses such *fascination* (including my own), which I find somewhat unhelpful. I do not want to indulge here in these matters yet when you mention who you are I thought it would be good to acknowledge you and also say something of my work. We do well to discuss these aspects of the "soul in cyberspace" with our personal experiences included. The other reason for my interest in the theme -- which has been bubbling in dozens of posts here -- is that this list has the focus of _depth psychology_ & while there are many theorists who we can draw on they all have respect for the multiplicity of the psyche -- Jung and archetypes, Hillman explicitly favouring anything "poly" over anything whole or one, and so on, Moreno and his use of role -- not to mean mask but as fully functioning independent states of being -- ie we are always in a role. I look forward to more on this whole question of identity on and off line -- and to your contributions to that. -- I have kept the title of the thread as "poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.." -- for continuity, and because somehow links our lurker thread with the identity thread. I have some dislike for the term "inner", -- (though I will use it of course at times) it seem to minimise the totality and autonomy of the alters - roles - archetypes - and the clusters of _many_ that lurk within! (er -- without -- anyway somewhere around!) Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:18:18 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Lists and Differences In-Reply-To: <960411195120_100044.275_JHB6-3@CompuServe.COM> Hi Guy > "the similarities make exchanges possible, the > differences make them worthwhile". Wonderful line! It is with this in mind that I am writing a form on the Psybernet web page to assist in small group formation. I am wanting to make it easy for people to find structured and facilitated groups that suit them for psychological work on-line. Thinking about this, the possibilities of the web really became clear to me -- and I had a week or so of *net-fever* as I boggled at the sites I built in my fantasy. Some of it I intend to make reality. Some of it already is -- with mixed feelings I found firefly (Josh told me about it). If you have not seen _firefly_ have a look: http://www.ffly.com/ One of the first web site I have seen that is born of the web (though I say that about Psybernet), it is not an online version of a page or magazine, or a movie or a tape. On firefly you feed in your taste in movies and music and on the basis (somehow) of the similarities between people you get feed back on what _else_ you would like. ie _the differences_ that make it worthwhile! You can also chat and post to others and check out their preferences and see their reviews. To find me there look for my alias: Taste-bud. I have given it enough data (in other words I belong to certain groups of people) so it can now accurately predict what I like. I can check out a movie before I go! This is important for the Psybernet project. This type of technology allows us to develop groups on line that have the sociometry designed to suit. The criteria for group formation can be specified and then we can learn about the result. To use your words Guy -- we can tweak just the amount of similarity and difference we want. I am using some jargon here -- sociometry and criteria -- are words that come from my training in the methods of JL Moreno. His work is relevant to this -- hanging around here will lead to some familiarity with his approach. There are others on this list too who have this their background. There is an internet phrase "you are your links" -- Pure Moreno. Choose carefully: reject a lot -- and choose a lot! I'd be interested in hearing, here perhaps (short) & in private email (long and detailed) about tools and processes to develop this aspect of Psybernet groups. Walter net-fever still raging _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:29:57 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: The Dawn and the songs of morning In-Reply-To: <960412002919_468019022@emout10.mail.aol.com> John, > I awoke earlier than usual today and always before the dawn on workdays. As > I lay in bed awake, I listened to the sounds of morning: the dim background > of machine noise, that traffic din that would increase over the hours until > reaching a peak at rush hour. But, the sound that was most distinctive was > the repetitive sounds of bird songs. I remember on certain mornings, I would > hear a single bird sing and, as if on cue, others would join in. Sometimes, > I would just lay in bed, the seconds stretching into minutes, listening to > the songs of different birds because the sounds were so clear and beautiful. > And surprisingly, the most beautiful songs of all came from one bird, the > mocking bird. I think again of the opening scene of Porgy & Bess . . . we have moved on in the list since the silence & the whispering. I like the traffic & the birds . . . I like the build up and the rhythms. w _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 06:12:55 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Fred Bauder Organization: SLV BBS Subject: The Underground Men (and Women) There are a few "lurkers" on this list whom I know from personal knowledge are here for critical purpose; upon the announcement of this list they announced on other lists that they intended to lurk here and made either negative or critical observations regarding this list; one believed on-line psychotherapy was being offered here; perhaps it is; but perhaps something other is being explored. Another, a list-owner of a competing list, expressed his general negativity, on his own list he freely expresses his freedom to "post about green chickens, if he wants to, and if you don't like it, Tough Shit." Another lurker, who may emege here like some alligator emerging from a sewer, is against what he calls "psychobabble." Perhaps he is here. Expression of negativity will find a resonance amoung these underground characters. More later. Fred _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:03:50 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Just a thought in passing Robert and Psyberians Robert: > I wonder at what we are trying to do here? Are we trying to >understand our *reality* in this dimension using the logic of a f2f world? >Are we measuring this *reality* with a fifteenth (or nineteenth) century >mindframe? Perhaps our attempts to *define* this communicative adventure are >inappropriate and we should be allowing ourselves an experiential >understanding until a new vocabulary arises. How can we define with words >that have risen out of a different dimension, a different reality? Jurek: New field You are looking for, is for me, a field of social construction of reality as we speak. By recursive dialogue, reflexivity we are coordinating the understanding in the ongoing game. An language game. It is always tempting and obviously our first reflex to use the old paradigm in to new situation. Some of them will work some others not. Bertram Russel author of Principia Mathematica said that the quality of theory should be judged on basis of the premises for theory. In view of academic elite or scientific priesthood that sound logical and serve the purpose (elitist thinking - nothing wrong with that I suppose) for the praxis of living that daring at least optimistic. The scientific method evolved in the last 4 centuries (some days ago we had 400 anniversary of birth of Rene Descartes - L une de votre illustre ancetre Robert, n est pas ? showed the way to the stars and to the ways of quarks and reveals limitation of positivistic, mechanistic (Wilbur that one for You :-) ) reductionistic thinking in front of complexity of human beings. We are on the move into new world from Uni-verse to Multi-verse. From one explanation to many enactments. Just passing by...That a couple of words on delayed (fog and for the moment finished sunny spring ) flight to Paris. Best regards Jurek. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:14:49 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Language and communication WFS, (?) How should I refer to you? Dr. Schmidt, WFS, or simply 101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM? You said: >Actually, grammatically correct you should have heard >referred to it as "insanitas germanica" (insanitas, -atis, >fem.). I am glad that you did not hear "insanitas teutonica"! >BTW, can you provide a reference (Journal article or >book) where this expression is used ? The term was coined in reference to the cutting down of the Germanic sacred groves during the early 700's. See p. 482 in Joseph Campbell's The Masks of God: Oriental Mythology, Penguin Books, 1962. There is also a line from Faust: Zwei Seelen wohnen, ach, in meiner Brust! (Indeed, two souls reside within my being.) Christianity was grafted upon the older pagan beliefs. Campbell believed this caused a split in the European psyche. I do not know the source of Campbell's idea, but I would think that with Campbell as an academic scholar, his ideas must have been researched and documented by historians or sociologists. BTW, there is a story that the Christmas tree has its origin in these acts of religious conversion. St. Boniface, the first Archbishop of Mainz, had a oak tree cut down to prove that it was not divine. When the tree fell, it crushed everything in its path except a small fir sapling. Boniface, in a clever move to win converts, deemed that fir as the tree of the Christ child. >Insanely laughing, WFS Are you of German descent? I apologize if I offended you in any way. John My real name: John My screen name address: XMEFF@AOL.COM _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:18:41 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Steven B. Hoath" Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. At 11:13 AM 4/13/96, Walter wrote: >One of the themes I have wanted to join in with here is the >one of multiple on line identities and their authenticity, the >degree to which they are a form of deception and so on... >We do well to discuss these aspects of the "soul in cyberspace" >with our personal experiences included. ************************************************************************ FOLLOW THAT STAR---A CYBERSTORY There once was a rover. In his youth, this rover had a dream and this dream became a longing and this longing became a guiding star. The rover followed this star through the halls of academia. He listened carefully to the learned speech of the laureates; he spent countless hours communing with the frozen words of the Dead. The rover loved the philosophers and the mathematicians; he joined the poets and cast his imagination like a net over reality. His path led him through the study of the mind and the diseases of the body. He became fascinated with Time. Still the rover was discontent. His comfortable reality laid on his back like a tight suit. His star beckoned him onwards and led him rushing down the causeway to the vast ocean of cyberspace. In cyberspace his soul expanded and his imagination rejoiced. The rover became many people...moving through personalities like the countless fish in the sea. The rover discovered the immediacy of online conversation and became adept at the art of listening. He learned the power of the proper word in the proper place at the proper time. He felt the tugs of the emotional currents running fast and slow, warm and cold over his constantly changing cyberbody. He was fascinated to discover that the swirl of the sea on his scales was different according to the body he chose. The rover experimented endlessly. He explored the darkest reaches of the cyberocean...he shared his emotions and his cyberbody with many denizens of the deep...never once returning to the same place...never once being snared in the sticky web of deception. This was his only rule and his only justification...he never deceived beyond the first encounter and he only encountered once. Still the rover was discontent. He realized that his constantly changing cyberform never approximated his mortal guise. In fact, the rover realized that he steadfastly avoided translating reality into cyberspace and he wondered why. He also realized he was experimenting with the bounds of his imagination...with the forbidden and hidden aspects of his personality. He was enthralled yet discontent. Worse, his star was fading and in danger of being extinguished. During this time, however, a light appeared...a small and wavering light held by a mermaid of shadowy form. The rover saw this light and turned away to find his star...he searched endlessly and with increasing desperation. He lost track of time and became disoriented...his headlong plunge into cyberspace became a goalless wander through a dense and thickening glue. From time to time, however, the mermaid would reappear and share her light with him. He realized that he divulged his secret side only when she was there...still he kept her at fin's length. The mermaid shared her tales of the murky dangerous shoals of reality. Her words sang with imagination and a bubbling stream of humor. The rover became afraid. He was not stupid nor was he naive. In all his journeys through cyberspace he had studiously avoided the entanglements of mixing real life with his constantly changing cyberself. Still, the mermaid was an undeniable attraction. More than this, however, the rover came to realize what he had dreamed so long ago. He realized that his longing could only be satisfied by joining with another...that by himself he was incomplete. The rover discovered that all his imagined transformations in cyberspace had only served to make real his innermost essence...his central self...and it was this self which longed to be shared. The rover realized too that this self...this soul...was the source of his longing and his soul would never rest content hiding behind the walls of his ego. The rover came to believe that cyberspace was a medium for sharing his soul with another...for learning the boundless potential of love and the awefullness of intimacy. The rover became willing to be vulnerable...he became willing to be hurt. He made the difficult decision to try and find a way to reconcile his reality and his life in cyberspace without the need for deception. Only in this way, the rover thought, would he be able to follow his star... The rover swam lazily in the vast ocean of cyberspace rejoicing in the play of his imagination. Beneath him and above him, the mermaid joined him and together they spun in wide cybercircles..the colored lights of their souls pulsing side by side, indistinguishable from each other, as they spiraled off into the deep blue distance and finally merged into a single, bright, shining star. Steven the StoryTeller _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:27:05 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Tama.Neill" Subject: Hell I've been mail bombed by you guys... Well hello, It's TAMA & I'm Back, Not many of you new comers will know me + most of the last 3 wks messages I have sent went to the old adress.My messages were pretty personal, Some people liked it & others probably couldin't care less.Well I dunno... I have been away 10 days & I got 180 messages-hell!! I was 25k away from being full up on my e-mail disk. Walter seems like this place has had a major influx of people & it's spinning over at a vast rate, I think I will have to alter my approach some what.I talk more later as I have a friend waiting on me.I had a really Awesome cycle tour-great excercise, beautiful lush Nz scenery, great people hot pools, a great release. Well Kate kinda slipped up-ya know the girl who kinda siad no, well I gave her a massage & she melted for an intimate while, but now shes run off to think... well it's colourful experience. Anyway hello to all I know & When I get round to reading all those messages-I jump back in again!! Se ya All-Tama Neill... _____________________ *TAMA JAMEY NEILL* 19 Haywood st, Mornington Dunedin, New Zealand *P:(03)4554627* *E-MAIL address:-* *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz* ____________________________ Custom-Sized Screen Realities: TURN ON TUNE IN BOOT UP "To be is to do" -Socrates "To do is to be" -Sartre "Do be do be do" -Sinatra Just say "Know" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:39:40 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Holding space. Holding space. A list is not a group. I know that -- but at times I think of it like that -- hanging on to the familiar -- Hit home today as I had a sense of the breeze blowing through here. I was driving to the dump with rubbish form our renovations and entered into this place while, "with" the people here while driving, have not left. I am aware of Charles's "ouch!" and why groups can hurt. I wanted to look across and see him, I am not sure of the details but the ouch stands out in both the noise and the silence. I was aware of Dolores, Tracy & a tangle of unfinished threads. Language, netsex -- but most of all the beginnings of a web of relationships, positive & negative, that I can only dimly see, and that I fit into somewhere. How was that for you Robert when there was that small aside -- that _you_ would raise the netsex again! And Steve (etc.)-- newly emerged from "reading only" with writing on hypnosis, NLP, and personal journey. I wonder what it is like to have posted that here, and now awaiting a response? I wonder how others respond to it -- even more how I might respond ( like this for now). Fred and the voices from the underground -- somewhat like the news from Dolores who also had off-list information. Tentacles from the deep have been snapping at me, I don't like them, but I want to see what all that is about. Will say more. I think of the diversity here extending into "worthwhile" difference and bordering on difficulty -- language and cultures -- interests, styles, all still creating unknowns for us. ( I got mail in another list -- from Australia and I liked just seeing something from where I grew up! Familiar. ) Tama is back and the mail bomb went off -- welcome back! It hit me that a list is not a group. All this is not held in a way that I have come to expect from a group -- I felt and feel -- in space -- with much happening -- but with no CIRCLE around it. If I am feeling it perhaps others are too? I do not want to judge this -- or change it -- I am noticing my experience and that is enough for now. The usual things (for me) that create a holding space are not all here. Is this a holding place none the less? Should certain things happen for that to be the case -- is PSYBER-L OK the way it is? Should it be a holding space? For example in four days 20 people left and 10 came in -- this is fine -- that is the nature of this list. Can it then contain what is happening here -- and do its task? Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:55:01 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Cecelia A Clancy Subject: Re: Language and communication In-Reply-To: <960412165937_101632.3701_JHF137-1@CompuServe.COM> On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, Dr. Schmidt wrote: > To: XMeff@AOL.COM > > Actually, grammatically correct you should have heard referred to it as > "insanitas germanica" (insanitas, -atis, fem.). I am glad that you did not hear > "insanitas teutonica"! BTW, can you provide a reference (Journal article or > book) where this expression is used ? > Insanely laughing, WFS I would like a reference too. And to me, it is not so funny. Cecelia Clancy (German on my Mother's side) Neuroscience, CAS University of Pittsburgh cacst9+@pitt.edu _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:21:33 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Susan Z. Swan" Subject: Re: ideas for nice people/love changes Steve--thanks for your openness in sharing yourself, esp. through the articles you forwarded. Synchronicity is a powerful thing--and you sent something along which seemed to fill a need for me. From Jung's perspective, you seem to have created a marvelous link with your anima (feminine side)--how neat to see this modeled and then spoken of with such grace. To all--this is just a quick note (no Walter I'm not ignoring your post). I am consigned mostly to listening right now since this paper I'm working on is having a difficult birth, but I find the contact established here important and thus at least participate at that level. And since Steve's post struck a chord for me, I wanted to make sure he heard the "ummhmm...oh, yeah! " from this listener in the conversation. Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:10:51 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Fred Bauder Organization: SLV BBS Subject: Language and communities in response to Marah Rosenberg, Language on Psyber-l is a work in progress, the word lurker, an obnoxious usage as applied to an audience or a readership is under discussion. Psychobabble, another abomination (which you use) as applied to legitimate insights regarding dynamic interaction, I put on the table also. With regard to being responded to or engaged by others, postively or negatively, I simply point out, other things being equal, good writers have the power. Fred _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:34:18 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Poem: cyber.illusions cyber.illusions in this forever night illuminant this manuscript of sighs into this breathless fire obdurate this narrative of love from that boundless page insufficient this composition of a kiss within the crystal image temporal this extract of desire (c) Is'e 96.13.05r _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:30:28 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Tama, you devil! Psyber folks, It's a sunny day outside so I won't tarry long. Just a few thoughts concerning evil and since Susan Swann referred to a Jungian perspective, I thought I would mention how we too easily perceive it in others, ie, how we see it outside, but not within. I suppose the title of Tama's message prompted me to bring up the subject. Here in the States, the FBI has captured a suspect for the infamous Unabomber attacks. Apparently, the Unabomber is anti-technology and has waged an one-man assault against the men and institutions that perpetuate the evil (as he sees it) of technology. Personal details of the suspect are leaking out and it seems as if he was a very insular man, ie, he had no deep relationships with others. Yet, he had deep convictions even if they were warped. As for the lack of relationships, he appears to have maintained contact with his family if somewhat sporadically. No man is an island. Loneliness may be a symptom or cause of mental disorder but not all loners are killers. Even couples and mothers with children can kill, eg, Bonney and Clyde, Susan Smith. I am reminded of Fredrick Nietszche, who never married though he had a brief affair with Lou Salome. I wonder if Nietszche would have ever written 'Thus Spoke Zarathrustra' if he had not experienced the heightening (or quickening) induced by his exposure to that intense fascination with Lou. Of course, Nietszche never killed anyone but his influence was immeasurable. Love conquers all does it? It seems to be only a feel-good fairy tale. Is this idea of the all-conquering power of love universal or is it more restricted? I wonder if love has ever been the catalyst for outbursts of passion of the violent sort. I could go on, but like I mentioned it's sunny outside. I want to go out and play. John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:13:23 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Tama.Neill" Subject: Tick Tick Tick-KABOOM-(A flower grows out of the ground) Hello there, Tama, you wrote some posts to the list which I got forwarded from the old, now defunct address. Good to hear from you and on the phone as well! You may wish to repost -- as I explained. somehow I do not want to loose that thread connecting to your open heart. I think it belongs here in this list. I have a fear that your openness (and mine?) -- may be seen as "off topic" or as too much "group therapy". I hope you hang in there with your style, I have no doubt you will! -Thank you Walter-I'm am definetly gonna continue what I'm doing, I would like you you to repost those messages that have gone astray please-thanx.., But I am also going to get more involved in th ewhole hub bub of didcussion.I have just been picking off th odd bit of mail & perusing it, & wow it's fantastic,, I read 3 or 4 of Laurel's posts, People I'm mighty impressed, I have to admit sometimes I could not quite figure some of your intellectual talk so I continued doing what I know best, buts it's one great melting pot huh.Good to hear from Josh On.He probably thinks I crap on does he? -any body wanna Flame-I'm open, I'm vunerable, I'm up to it... Well When I have some more time I'll delve back into the hundreds of messages & put in some feed back. The writing that comes up next is letter like telling a friend what has been happening in my lately:- Well what a full on time in my life!! I couldin't get any uni stuff done in the last wk, so I have to do it this wk, now, although I am, a little afraid of the hot bath water, gotta tentatively put my foot in. I just about missed the bus to Christchurch, If I had been 30 secs later... I saw my grandmothers dead body, pretty strange-didin't really look like her that much, shed lost a lot of hair... Don't wanna be sombre, was a constructive exp, Ya know makes ya wanna live life fully.The Funeral was pretty down to earth not to spiritual, I cried.Did not really know many of the relations that well, but we had a eat & drink get together afterwards which was good.I also wrote to Kate-jeez Tama... That night I meet my buddy John whom I have been friends with since about the age of 4.We drank some beer, er I ended up throwing up in a sink a little-first time through drinking.We went to several night clubs, It's was all pretty similiar a bit more up market than dud but fucking exspensive, + some of the places were real meta markets, I had a good dance though The next day I joined up with tha cycle tour at Mayles Cookie factory-got loyts of cheap cookies-yum.Well there were about 28 cyclists including me & 3 drivers, a great bunch of people, great challenges (big hills & ranges)-the scenery was gorgeous.The food was good, everything was great, I kept up with the racers with $ bikes for awile too.I was pretty friendly & extroverted, was a bit of a clown & a comic at times.I came on to a few women, I even propersitioned a 24 yr old, she was flattere & said I was sweet.She already had a lover in Queenstown-A 43 yr old, + it would of been impractical in a city of tents, but it was a exp being actually asking like that.I got stoned a few times, in really beutiful places, snowy mountains sourrounded by lush forrested hills cold sparkeling moon lit rivers & the milky way-wow...The Japanese bath houses & hot pools were great too. I got back on Friday night, I checked my E-mail on Sunday Fuck it was a 25 min wait to get it of the server on to disk I got 180 messages.Pretty much all from one group-Cyber-L. Well I saw Broken Arrow on Saturday-it was a bit of a laugh-quite good.I also went to Kates Hung out & talked-But I gvae her a big massage 35 mins worth-she was suprised & impressed, she gave me a kiss, Boy I was breathing funny when I massaged her-I then caressed her, we kisse & passhed, it was no thinking just mellow intensity, heavy breathing, white smooth creamy skin, Ugh, she took her bra off, what breasts, we it went on like that till she had to go out to dinner to a friends house, well 2 of the guys came around she said meet mr Tama Neill-they already knew me-that was slightly embarrasing, not only for me for them.She kinda joked at the door I'm gonna have 3-some with Leo & Claudia-C's her comedy partner, who has been comeing on to her when drunk she also goes out with Leo who wnet to my high school.She asked if I was alright in between-Jesus!!I kinda said I'll try & take it easy, day by day-tried to sound nonchalaunt I see ya when i see ya.She still has not found her comic material.she has to preform tommorow night-ha ha... I have invited friends to watch too, it's a stand up thing to win money... Yeasterday I hung out with a good freind Matthew to get him out of the house & un depressed-spend a lot of money doing it.We checked my E-mail, had awesome coffees, mine was a mega moucha -which was coffe & choclaye & a flake in a bowl-mmm.Then we saw Dead Man Walking with my mum as well-the acting in that is brilliant, it's liak ewatching a doco, really draws you in-I cried, heavy movie... We also went out to a cafe had some dinner & played a long game of scrabble. I stayed up till 3 am reading a realationship book...(Jungian astrology book) Found out I only got a day to do a theatre studies 20% poject + I'm getting penalised, oh well least it will be out of the way tomorrow.I talked to Kate on a card phone, but she had girl friends coming over so I could not visit her, Fucking Confuseing eh, just gotta be objective, not her fault, or mine it's just learning, mixed with pleasure & pain & everything else. we have to entertain a Korean boy for the wk, hes so young not quite assimilating-so much hassle compare to the jap girls.One of our old jap girls is back hopefully I can get her to help me with Jap. Her comedy act sounded strange, they did a act were they pretenede to be chics, kissing the crowd, goinf to the toilet-peeing, pukeing cahing underwhere, getting 2 ken dolls out putting condoms on theird heads, crazy ha, they got through to the ssemmi final on sympathy I think. Hear is the poem I wrote to her, I'm gonnna write more beutiful stuff than that-it was a kind a of a letter poem. Dear Kate, Have a peice of my Pain... You drag me down!! Fuck me around WHY? Cause I'm a nice guy- not the self destructive slimeball you desire!! Intimacty can't handle attachments compliments drag you down Beuaty is Fear for me- Moth to Flame Burnt & raging inside at your thinking- LET GO- Open your arms, purse your lips, OPEN YOUR HEART- LET ME IN!! Can't handle it eh? I don't need your co-dependant slef hatred shit It's not Fun, Frustrateingly Tourtorously painful to ME!! Why lonely? Well shes dead & I'm home alone You try to appaese me-ohhoo... FUCK!! Dont patronise me- You Dont Want ME Shoudin't of let me in that 1 inch You think you thought but you didin't Goodby kisses kindled a fire that you used to BURN ME!! I won't say you can't help it, Everybody can change It starts with you!! Get your SHIT together or get rid of it!! I hope you don'y find the slimball causeself obliterating destruction aint fun- Sometimes the peices can't be picked up Well your free & independant- -Good On You- Youe freedom shackles you up- Your scars are up & you shoot to kill Freinds OK-But I do what I want-no more lackey-2nd status-EQUALITY I'm TAMA, I can not but weep inside & cry out loud at your choice Judgement is not mine to make, Youve done enuff Well I have learnt I found one of those people there- I would like to help you but you have to want HELP!! I liked you soo much- I could of loved you.. Oh Well, exhale extinguish mine breath, breath in, life goes on, optismism, posistivity-thats the way-gotta make the most of my life. I won't look but hey damned if I'm gonna end up with or wothout you KATE SHREW I hope this feels... You (beautiful) It's been FUN- See Ya around sometime xo Tama Neill P.S don't forget to take that JAGGED LITTLE PILL- Don't it feel good!! Got a new theme song-You Learn Alanis Morisette I wish we could be Head over Feet-but Who said life was easy!!) ( well looking back reading that I have to say, I kinda flamed her-it was a good out let for her but slightly something-the book I wsa reading was very interesting-I'll talk more abou that later. Thought, Feelings, Reactions? Any way gotta get going bye... _____________________ *TAMA JAMEY NEILL* 19 Haywood st, Mornington Dunedin, New Zealand *P:(03)4554627* *E-MAIL address:-* *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz* ____________________________ Custom-Sized Screen Realities: TURN ON TUNE IN BOOT UP "To be is to do" -Socrates "To do is to be" -Sartre "Do be do be do" -Sinatra Just say "Know" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:11:19 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast >I was aware of Dolores, Tracy & a tangle of unfinished threads. >Language, netsex -- but most of all the beginnings of a web of >relationships, positive & negative, that I can only dimly see, and >that I fit into somewhere. How was that for you Robert when there was >that small aside -- that _you_ would raise the netsex again! Since I have been cast in role of devil here, (thank you so so much Wilbur, - I would have hated to sacrifice the scapegoat on the lawn under a full moon) I have risen once more from the sulphrous, stinking pits of hell..to post. Firstly my appointed fallen angel, for some reason posted to the list instead of privately to me. She had intended to stay a devil in disguise. Im sorry Walter that because of that you missed the humour in that sentence...it wasnt an aside. It was a joke. I equate humour with intelligence which is why I doubt that Robert took it personally. Be more carefull in future Tracy or I wont let you play with the inccubi again. Fred and the voices from the underground -- somewhat like the news >from Dolores who also had off-list information. Tentacles from the >deep have been snapping at me, I don't like them, but I want to see >what all that is about. Will say more. Im curious....what off-list information? I am not one of Freds lurking list luddites ( alas if only I could spell I'd be dangerous) Were I troubled by such tentacles I would personally consider hacking away at the little suckers.. frying them and adding a squeeze of lemon. That after all what a list managers job is. However It raises the issue of freedom of speech v the aims of the list. Are you desirous of gathering around the list an elite clique of minds in accord and perfect harmony?.. how boring, and how ultimatly non productive. Utopia does not exist in the real world..and its sure as hell wont exist here. You can never be entirely happy with a list, it will never be what you want it to be, because you cannot control the seperate parts that make the whole. And like most living, breathing entities, there is bound to be some conflict. Its that conflict that that makes it alive and keeps it rolling when theres danger of stagnation. Threads are meant to be broken..and or followed. One can also pick them up again, sew them back in. If you keep doggedly sewing away eventually you run out of cotton.. >I think of the diversity here extending into "worthwhile" difference >and bordering on difficulty -- language and cultures -- interests, >styles, all still creating unknowns for us. ( I got mail in another >list -- from Australia and I liked just seeing something from where I >grew up! Familiar. ) > >It hit me that a list is not a group. All this is not held in a way >that I have come to expect from a group -- I felt and feel -- in space >-- with much happening -- but with no CIRCLE around it. I have been led to believe that there is order in chaos. I expect its the same with lists. Laurel draws a pentagram in salt, throws a little water here and there and places candles on the points.. there that ought to hold us Trace... >If I am feeling it perhaps others are too? Who wants borders or limitations.. growth is impossible within them. >I do not want to judge this -- or change it -- I am noticing my >experience and that is enough for now. The usual things (for me) that >create a holding space are not all here. Is this a holding place none >the less? Should certain things happen for that to be the case -- is >PSYBER-L OK the way it is? Should it be a holding space? For >example in four days 20 people left and 10 came in -- this is fine -- >that is the nature of this list. Can it then contain what is >happening here -- and do its task? Its fine as it is..there are different camps, different followers, some people detest others..some want to be noticed, others lurk silently in the background, some have ideas, some have predjudices, some have wit, some have wisdom..some are assholes...sounds like a true reflection of life to me. *real* or cyber. The Devil incarnate Dolores P.S Steven.. sounds like a mermaid in a million. I cant tell you how much I enjoyed your story. > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:52:06 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Holding space. Emerging from the shadows;-) a fellow lurker who has been holding space in a sense wanting to respond to Walter's post. IHMO an expectation around group-notwithstanding Walter your professional experience of group-the paradox of having no CIRCLE within a circle to me is exactly the learning of this cyberspace experience with PSYBER-L I am sensing the space held is the circle and participants move in and out in flow, some dipping in for a moment checking their expectation to what they find here, being fednotfed, expectationintention of the individual meeting the participationintention of those engaged in dialogue within the form Walter created. For me it is the creative tention around one's vision and one's experience of reality ala Fritz and one's engagement in holding the sense of anxiety which is inherent in this critical tention. For me in the role of lurker since before the end of the year it has been a time of digestion-my personal process-watching to see what would emerge out of my ingestion of the dialogue here. I am also aware of my posting heading into the structural tention of processcontent. Again IMHO Walter you have created a holding space whether this was a conscious intention or not as opposed to *group.* The form exists called List and thru this form emerges the content and thus the creation ofin the moment which to me is the case as indicated by 20 people going out and ten coming in. My experience of *group* in cyberspace, meaning a shared superordinate, individual intention within a shared intention was in an on-line PHD program at the California Institute for Integral Studies. We brought our individual intentiontask to the holding space called school and iterationsvariations emerged from the vision of the transformation learning environment created by the program meaning a given structure and time expectatino. OTOH there is a list here with a superordinate intention which Walter holds primarily and the dialogue for me as I lurk:-) has been very much around the individual intentionsexpectations meeting this superordinate...as well as the critical tention around the mechanisticorganic meaning *group* as a specific type of form and the dialogue which emerges, the content. For me I did not enlist for psychotherapy, meaning something I'm not sure of or care to engage in. However, from my interpretation of Walter's intention there is an expectation to create a group to do this and this list is the doorway into a for profit idea of some sort in cyberspace. May have missed something. BTW what opened my *space* heartspace this am and lured me out of lurking was Tama's letter poem to the girl Kate. It touched something I had been holding in my space and unstuck me and thus I received a gift for my well being. My metaphore for engaging in cyberspace - actually the way I sense my living of life- is that of a salt crystal emerging from the saline solution, drawn out into existance for a moment thru a magnetic resonance. Judith, a lurker emerging from my saline solutionspace So Walter in gratitude for creatingholding space and Tama my gratitude for your heartspace: < Hear is the poem I wrote to her, I'm gonnna write more beutiful stuff than that-it was a kind a of a letter poem. Dear Kate, Have a peice of my Pain... You drag me down!! Fuck me around WHY? Cause I'm a nice guy- not the self destructive slimeball you desire!! Intimacty can't handle attachments compliments drag you down Beuaty is Fear for me- Moth to Flame Burnt & raging inside at your thinking- LET GO- Open your arms, purse your lips, OPEN YOUR HEART- LET ME IN!! Can't handle it eh? I don't need your co-dependant slef hatred shit It's not Fun, Frustrateingly Tourtorously painful to ME!! Why lonely? Well shes dead & I'm home alone You try to appaese me-ohhoo... FUCK!! Dont patronise me- You Dont Want ME Shoudin't of let me in that 1 inch You think you thought but you didin't Goodby kisses kindled a fire that you used to BURN ME!! I won't say you can't help it, Everybody can change It starts with you!! Get your SHIT together or get rid of it!! I hope you don'y find the slimball causeself obliterating destruction aint fun- Sometimes the peices can't be picked up Well your free & independant- -Good On You- Youe freedom shackles you up- Your scars are up & you shoot to kill Freinds OK-But I do what I want-no more lackey-2nd status-EQUALITY I'm TAMA, I can not but weep inside & cry out loud at your choice Judgement is not mine to make, Youve done enuff Well I have learnt I found one of those people there- I would like to help you but you have to want HELP!! I liked you soo much- I could of loved you.. Oh Well, exhale extinguish mine breath, breath in, life goes on, optismism, posistivity-thats the way-gotta make the most of my life. I won't look but hey damned if I'm gonna end up with or wothout you KATE SHREW I hope this feels... You (beautiful) It's been FUN- See Ya around sometime xo Tama Neill P.S don't forget to take that JAGGED LITTLE PILL- Don't it feel good!! Got a new theme song-You Learn Alanis Morisette I wish we could be Head over Feet-but Who said life was easy!!) ( well looking back reading that I have to say, I kinda flamed her-it was a good out let for her but slightly something-the book I wsa reading was very interesting-I'll talk more abou that later. Thought, Feelings, Reactions? Any way gotta get going bye... _____________________ *TAMA JAMEY NEILL* 19 Haywood st, Mornington Dunedin, New Zealand *P:(03)4554627* *E-MAIL address:-* *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz* ____________________________ -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 06:04:24 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Fred Bauder Organization: SLV BBS Subject: Mud Characters Walter, It is interesting as my two Mud characters develop; for one thing I have never made a secret as to my true indentity, sex and age; that in itself has been profoundly disturbing to some other players; changeing sex in front of them wreaks havoc with their fantasy life. My character will not be having any cybersex in any event; many of the other persons logged on are minors and I am a practicing attorney who frequently works with children; how would anyone know; well, I would. My female character is now a sorceress and has her own e-mail address: toots@slvbbs.com I wonder if anyone will ever write her, or her scout, Blackprince. Certainly tips on technique of play could be shared. I wonder whether her identity and that of Blackprince will deviate from my own; so far they are extremely intense players and don't have a lot of time to spare for chitchat. In wonder, Fred _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 07:09:15 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Holding space. Walter and fellow Psyberians, I've just returned from an extended family gathering and now have the time to send a few words in response to your letter(s). Walter, you opened your letter with: WL>Holding space. WL> WL>A list is not a group. I know that -- but at times I think of it like WL>that -- hanging on to the familiar -- Hit home today as I had a sense WL>of the breeze blowing through here. I was driving to the dump with WL>rubbish form our renovations and entered into this place while, "with" WL>the people here while driving, have not left. Unfortunately, I have to agree, this is not a *group*. I on't think that we have done what is necessary to find or build the bonds necessary for a group. I don't think that we have much sense of group *identity*, group *purpose*. It's like we're all just hanging out waiting for the *real* action to begin. WL>I am aware of Charles's "ouch!" and why groups can hurt. I wanted to WL>look across and see him, I am not sure of the details but the ouch WL>stands out in both the noise and the silence. WL> WL>I was aware of Dolores, Tracy & a tangle of unfinished threads. WL>Language, netsex -- but most of all the beginnings of a web of WL>relationships, positive & negative, that I can only dimly see, and WL>that I fit into somewhere. How was that for you Robert when there was WL>that small aside -- that _you_ would raise the netsex again! As for the disclosures from Charles (ouch!) and Dolores, I took them as momentous acts that tried hard to begin the process of bonding the potential group. Risk that exposes one's underbelly is painful. I wonder at those who deflect away from risk and continue their games with words. What are their hopes and purposes here. Walter, you ask about my reaction to the aside about netsex. Yes, I wondered why the aside. What have I said that hints at such a preoccupation with netsex? Perhaps it was a comment about the volume of my efforts at communication, but I think not. Perhaps it has to do with my comment about the sexual nature of dialogue. WL>Fred and the voices from the underground -- somewhat like the news WL>from Dolores who also had off-list information. Tentacles from the WL>deep have been snapping at me, I don't like them, but I want to see WL>what all that is about. Will say more. Voices from the underground (Notes from the Underground). I am taken back by their intensity. Lurkers have existed on every list in which I've taken part during the last five years, but never with the intensity and power that I notice here. They are *powerful* voices that echo from their off-line dialogues with a number of us. Their vocalness off-line is causing pause and I think silence. Dare we say much more which serves to make us more vulnerable? WL>I think of the diversity here extending into "worthwhile" difference WL>and bordering on difficulty -- language and cultures -- interests, WL>styles, all still creating unknowns for us. WL> WL>Tama is back and the mail bomb went off -- welcome back! I need, we need, the differences. The things that serve to draw our attention and hold our focus in a world that is running on information overload are important. I'd feel loss if this assembly failed to become a group and as a group, begin to explore, in safety, our group psyche. Having read the last archive from the older version of psyber-l, I was waiting for the appearance of Tama. I wonder what she will say about us newcomers to her space. WL>It hit me that a list is not a group. All this is not held in a way WL>that I have come to expect from a group -- I felt and feel -- in space WL>-- with much happening -- but with no CIRCLE around it. WL> WL>If I am feeling it perhaps others are too? Yes, I do feel it. And, it causes me a little sadness. How long can we dance without drawing together into a circle? Must our dance be a reflection of isolated *head-banger* culture? a culture of cynicism? Still, I stay in hopes that the tentative threads that serve as the bonding glue of a group might yet work their magic. WL>I do not want to judge this -- or change it -- I am noticing my WL>experience and that is enough for now. Yes, a meditative moment --- unjudged, just noted. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:33:43 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Holding space. A story. I was with my teacher in a group totalling he and the four pitiful students that we were! On a bright Monday morning in May we all went for a walk. The place is New Orleans. It is very early and not too hot and surprisingly not humid. We are all washed and clean and fresh. Because we are students we understand our very opennesss is to be challenged. Our teacher is good at this, very good. We happen into the lobby of a large downtown hotel. It is empty except for a young gentleman at the front desk who is chatting with a janitor. We aren't a strange looking group really, but with one nod of the head from our teacher, the man at the desk is put at ease. Our group moves toward the doorway of the coffee shop to our left. We are very quiet. Leading the way, our teacher opens the doorway and takes one step into the coffee shop. There are twelve people enjoying the morning, some coffee, and some food. They look up and are met with a short sweep of our teacher's hand. Suddenly all twelve are frozen. In mid sip, in mid bite, in mid word, in mid thought, in mid breath. We all step into the coffee shop. Silently our teacher beckons us to explore. We walk up to some of the paralyzed persons. Their chests neither rise nor fall.Their eyes do not blink. Yet, they are warm and full of life. The door opens and a young man, perhaps a truck driver in his uniform, steps in and is immediatly himself frozen several steps into the coffee shop. Our teacher gestures for us to have a look behind the counter. Standing around him we note the water faucet is on but it too is frozen, a single stream pouring into a pitcher the counterman is holding-but it does not fill up. Silently we all then look up and our teacher's eyes wait for each of us: brown, deep, timeless. A moment later he, with a nod of the head, indicates we are to leave. Stepping by the man in the doorway we leave with our teacher trailing. As he steps through the doorway he turns and with a matching wave of his hand the coffee shop returns to its activity, chests begin again to rise and fall. Eyes see. It is as it was. Soon we are back on the sidewalk laughing in amazement. Our teacher answers our questioning looks with the following: "There is space and then there is space; there is time and then there is time." *** There is cyberspace and then there is cyberspace. Perhaps our catagories are not adequate. Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 01:35:44 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Tick Tick Tick-KABOOM-(A flower grows out of the ground) In-Reply-To: Hi Tama, > -Thank you Walter-I'm am definetly gonna continue what I'm doing, I would > like you you to repost those messages that have gone astray please-thanx.., I have just searched high & low & cant find them -- do you have copies? I'll have another look too. Hey, good to see you back > & wow it's fantastic,, I read 3 or 4 of Laurel's posts, > People I'm mighty impressed, I have to admit sometimes I could not quite > figure some of your intellectual talk so I continued doing what I know > best, buts it's one great melting pot huh.Good to hear from Josh On.He > probably thinks I crap on does he? -any body wanna Flame-I'm open, I'm > vunerable, I'm up to it... I'm open, I'm vunerable, I'm up to it... The way you say that! You touch me, instantly, deeply . . . > The writing that comes up next is letter like telling a friend what has > been happening in my lately:- It _is_ like that, and i hope that you will be met thoroughly in friendship. I hope i can meet you. You are that flower Tama, bursting through the soil. I hope you can hold up in the weather -- and you dont get blown over . . . Ah . . . I'm open, I'm vunerable, I'm up to it... Can i trust you? I dont think i have experienced that state . . . ever. Thanks, walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 07:41:31 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Distracted Tama, Sorry for the assumption of mine that led me to use the pronoun "she" in reference to you. Fellow psyberians, I've noticed the shrinking volume of mail and find that I want to contribute a poem for your pleasure (or pain). After my initial poem in March, I have put my poetry away thinking this space too busy for the poems. Thanks to Tama and Lisa (and to John for his poetic prose) for the poetry. I hope that this gives someone a moment of thought and/or pleasure. Une tempete de coeur (Heartstorms) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Une furie de neige rend la nuit blanche shafts of light blurr outside warming the comfort of a silent watcher entranced by the snow's furious dance, a dervish of white and gold. Des arbres denues de peur dansent girating shadow dancers dark and mysterious in their primal ballet of wind and snow a curious dance, a feverish dance so silent and slow Le matin s'en vient avec le soleil and snow just fleeting memories etched in tremulous patterns blue and white ... blanc et bleu a choreographed abstract only the heart could know Une sourire, les yeux embrumes private knowledge of peace and virgin purity of grace tempest and fury a wild and willing love pact ... heartstorms. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 02:15:46 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Holding space. In-Reply-To: <164888477.34942601@sbc1.com> Hi Judith, Good to see you back in. > IHMO an expectation around group-notwithstanding Walter your professional > experience of group-the paradox of having no CIRCLE within a circle to me is > exactly the learning of this cyberspace experience with PSYBER-L You mean in rl groups there is also this paradox. That inside the circle -- there is no circle. Like on the stage there is no stage, that idea? > I am sensing > the space held is the circle and participants move in and out in flow, some > dipping in for a moment checking their expectation to what they find here, > being fednotfed, expectationintention of the individual meeting the > participationintention of those engaged in dialogue within the form Walter > created. I find that helpful. As if the CHAOS Dolores mentions -- that creative flux, _is_ held here . . . for all that. > For me it is the creative tention around one's vision and one's > experience of reality ala Fritz and one's engagement in holding the sense of > anxiety which is inherent in this critical tention. Oh yes -- very familiar to me! I lovehate it (can I do that, let your style justflowonin to my style?) . This Psybernet project is _nothing_ like my vision of it, just as well. I think I have held that tension well, allowed the new to grow, and yet not totally abandoning the basic idea. Expectations I am referring to here are not really the visionreality tension. It was more that I visualise a therapy group as I am here out of habit. Bad habit. A projection -- of something familiar into something new. > Again IMHO Walter you have created a holding space whether this was a > conscious intention or not as opposed to *group.* The form exists called List > and thru this form emerges the content . . . That was, is, my conscious intention --for PSYBER-L to be holding space that is a list and not a group. And to distinguish that from the Psybernet Small Groups -- online closed groups. I am not sure that group is even the right name there. It would be a great project to name how the holding is done here -- and how that is achieved in varieties of list. . . many factors I am sure. That is a response to the first half of your post. I gotta go! Hopefully more later . . . Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 21:02:40 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Re: ideas for nice people/love changes In-Reply-To: <960414132133.38f0@charlie.usd.edu> from "Susan Z. Swan" at Apr 14, 96 01:21:33 pm > > Steve--thanks for your openness in sharing yourself, esp. through the articles > you forwarded. Synchronicity is a powerful thing--and you sent something along > which seemed to fill a need for me. From Jung's perspective, you seem to have > created a marvelous link with your anima (feminine side)--how neat to see this > modeled and then spoken of with such grace. Why, thank you Susan - I appreciate your saying that. I'd suggest Steve Parkhill's book 'Answer Cancer, the Healing of a Nation' as something else you would I hope enjoy, as it's in tune with my own ideas whilst Parkhill is far more experienced than I am. Regards, Steve Murray Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:23:44 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: cyber.illusions - plus Lisa and fellow Psyberians I want to thank you for letting me hear one of your voices. I do enjoy poetry. I hope that I don't affend you, Lisa, as I speak to you through your poem. LMcC>cyber.illusions RdeC=> psyber.visons/dreams > LMcC>in this forever night LMcC>illuminant RdeC=>flourescent/incandescent RdeC=>timeless space of whisper > LMcC> this manuscript LMcC> of sighs RdeC=> flickering with RdeC=> an impatient silence > LMcC>into this breathless fire LMcC>obdurate RdeC=>electric pulse RdeC=>calling, waiting, accusing, tempting > LMcC> this narrative LMcC> of love RdeC=> this myth of soul RdeC=> a bard's song > LMcC>from that boundless page LMcC>insufficient RdeC=>server and served RdeC=>lover and loved RdeC=>ghostly > LMcC> this composition LMcC> of a kiss RdeC=> promised RdeC=> desired RdeC=> denied > LMcC>within the crystal image LMcC>temporal RdeC=>a shared dream on screen RdeC=>denying the coming of day > LMcC> this extract LMcC> of desire RdeC=> essences RdeC=> of soul mating > > LMcC>(c) Is'e LMcC>96.13.05r RdeC=>(c) Sieur de Cyberie RdeC=>96.15.04 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Walter and others, The dialogue within (not inner dialogue) this posting is different from that possible via snail mail because of the interactive nature of the audience. I expect to find that such a conversation can continue through both poetry and prose allowing the poem(s) to become a pulse of those who engage in the dialogue. Do we look at the interaction of the mated poem as well as any discussion that results from our group/list psyche and/or from our collective myths? Or, do we simply say "nice poem" and journey on? What say you <>? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:23:52 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning John and fellow Psyberians, XMeff> And surprisingly, the most beautiful songs of all came from one XMeff> bird, the mocking bird. Morning is truly a private time, a time for disclosure to one's own self. I appreciate the <> that you paint as coming from a deep place. XMeff>Now, what does this story have to do with anything? The joint melody XMeff>of bird songs symbolizes the diversity of all of us in this place. ... ... XMeff> The mocking bird represents the idea that, "It doesn't have to be XMeff> truth to form beautiful sounds." I agree, the words don't have to be true. But, I do think that their inspiration and source do find their roots in authenticity. XMeff>Diversity. Let it be. Listen to the songs. Don't drown out the XMeff>sounds of diversity with your cold noise if you don't agree with XMeff>someone's point of view. Keep your righteousness in check. Quit XMeff>trying to be someone's father or mother with the mindset that you XMeff>know what is right and true and good, that others with whom you XMeff>disagree are wrong or evil. I agree with this call for the acceptance of our diversity. But, should we not also accept this dreaded *righteousness* and other aspects of *cold noise* as part of that diversity? Even the most oburate of fundamentalist bigots have a core of value, a value that may bring us (me) a small measure of joy. Waiting for the next post, Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:38:56 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: vicki@BGA.COM Subject: Re: PSYBER: cyber.illusions - plus Dear Lisa and Robert -- What a creation of beauty! >Do we look at the interaction of the mated poem as >well as any discussion that results from our group/list psyche and/or from >our collective myths? Or, do we simply say "nice poem" and journey on? What >say you <>? I cannot speak for the group, nor even for the lurkers or those who would not be called lurkers. But I do think this poem captures the feel of cyber.relationships far better than standard explanations do. It evokes the promise inherent in the connection, and simultaneously, the desolation of the ultimate denial. Such a union of souls via cyber.space does indeed produce a strange fruit. I won't say "nice poem." I will instead write, "A haunting elucidation of a poignant coupling, replete with the eroticism that emanates from the union." Thank you, Lisa and Robert. Vicki _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 21:56:34 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast Laurel, > >Since I have been cast in role of devil here, (thank you so so much Wilbur, >- I would have hated to sacrifice the scapegoat on the lawn under a full >moon) I have risen once more from the sulphrous, stinking pits of hell..to >post. The entire point of nominating you as the devil was so that you would be the scapegoat, and so that I could avoid that role.. ;-P Hey, I'm not the scapegoat! baaahhh... baaawwwahhhh! (ooopppsss!) Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:14:17 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Re: PSYBER: cyber.illusions - plus cyber.surrender Into the joy that is our giving and the agony that is our need Into the night that is our longing and the day the gives us hope Into the desire that is between us and knowledge that we are none Into the surrender of the deep emotion and the moment of our intent Into the miles that fold between us and the time we span in jest Into the silence of that weaving is the substance of a dream (c) Is'e 95.285.xx encore, Robert? _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:55:40 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning Psyber folks, Robert, I hear you: > Morning is truly a private time, a time for disclosure to one's own >self. I appreciate the <> that you paint as coming from a deep place. Part of it comes from early remembrances triggered by recent events and part of it comes from, oddly enough, the art and mechanics of research grant proposal writing, not my own but something that could be conceivable. There is the idea that some species of birds may go extinct if the noise of modern technology, things like bulldozers, shotguns, etc., encroaches on their space. If you rely heavily on auditory communication when light conditions are dim and you can't hear a mating call, how do you find your mate? Sound believable? Would a grant funding agency provide money for this research? . . . a deep place? I would think of it as the mixing bowl. > I agree, the words don't have to be true. But, I do think that >their inspiration and source do find their roots in authenticity. Robert, I can't find myself disagreeing with what you say here. That's good, but I still have that inner drive to make distinctions. I don't think I'm turning chameleon on you. Perhaps I am, but consider what follows and its bearing on our discussion. I am trying to express something different. The process of understanding, doesn't that involve the making of distinctions? When we've gone as far as we can go, how do we answer the question: "What is the nature of the world?" I can ask a similar question: "What is music?" Is it patterns of information expressed through the interaction of energy and matter? Now, what is matter at its most basic level? I find that there is an almost dream-like character to the world, realizing at the same time that at our level of experience there are certain rules to abide by. (I'm not gifted or brilliant, if I was I'd be better off than I am. But, I can learn and improve. Point out any gross fallacies associated with this comparison, so I can develop the ideas in the best direction.) Perhaps, there was confusion with the idea, that for the most part, words that have their origin in sensible experiences are more easily believed than words that are abstract. I don't know. Am I changing my tune in the middle of the song? >>Diversity. Let it be. Listen to the songs. Don't drown out the >>sounds of diversity with your cold noise if you don't agree with >>someone's point of view. Keep your righteousness in check. Quit >>trying to be someone's father or mother with the mindset that you >>know what is right and true and good, that others with whom you >>disagree are wrong or evil. Cold noise, machine sounds, animated things devoid of feeling and thought, an automatic pattern of reaction without reflection --as opposed to-- Heat from bodies, the sounds of life; human beings who act upon both, feeling and thoughtful awareness There was a question I asked Walter much earlier. First, I wondered how far along was artificial intelligence in mimicking human behavior. Then, l considered the the flip side of that question. How machine-like have we become? Furthermore, how large a role does technology play in influencing us in this direction? Challenge your mind. Ask yourself that question. > I agree with this call for the acceptance of our diversity. But, >should we not also accept this dreaded *righteousness* and other aspects of >*cold noise* as part of that diversity? Even the most oburate of >fundamentalist bigots have a core of value, a value that may bring us (me) a >small measure of joy. Yes, there is a bit of hypocrisy in what I said. My own righteousness comes through. I am not this or that. I am both. Yet, I am trying to point at the relative nature of one's own truth. Who is one to judge another's truth? One sets oneself above another when judging that person. Who among us knows truly what is good and what is evil? John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 04:32:17 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Holding space. < WL>It hit me that a list is not a group. All this is not held in a way WL>that I have come to expect from a group -- I felt and feel -- in space WL>-- with much happening -- but with no CIRCLE around it. WL> WL>If I am feeling it perhaps others are too? RC>Yes, I do feel it. And, it causes me a little sadness. How long can we dance without drawing together into a circle? Must our dance be a reflection of isolated *head-banger* culture? a culture of cynicism? Still, I stay in hopes that the tentative threads that serve as the bonding glue of a group might yet work their magic.> snip I wonder at the sense of sadness...and the dance without drawing together into a circle as Robert reflects. I haven't sensed this but then differenciation for me is an issue :-) meaning what to call the sense. It feels like yearning maybe. And isn't this dance reflective of lists with no task. A list about antiques may not have a task but would be more concrete to discuss. Here I am reminded of David Bohm's concept of dialogue. I engaged in an 18 month research prject as a participant to explore dialogue. It was fascinating to see the doers and the be-ers dance:-) or not. The doers kept asking what the point was and the be-ers would respond- being. The be-ers posted as if water coloring, playing and diverging. The doers didn't want to color and wanted to converge ala Kolb's learning style stuff.I loved it but then it allowed me to *be*. :-) Eventually the participants dwindled to only be-ers probably a result not the least of which was the anxiety - sort of like the doers throwing up their hands at the lack of something concrete. It appeared to me that those who had the greatest tolerance for the dialogue were those who had a grasp of emergence which I am attributing to Robert's post< Still, I stay in hopes that the tentative threads that serve as the bonding glue of a group might yet work their magic.> Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:12:44 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Dancing around a fire... One of my initial notes about this group is that it isn't about a single topic, isn't focused.. Metaphorically, there are several fires here, and several dances going on, so a lot of us are left in between fires, lost in the wilderness.. Of course, what were are doing in the wilderness is quite amazing, and we're all having fun, but we are also quite lost. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:32:00 NZST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: The Thompson family Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . . Great stuff. Wish I could reply, but well, I dunno. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:29:01 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Tama.Neill" Subject: POEM-It started as what ever came out It started as what ever came out: Urgh... hello, lots of gropeing & grasping for that word "group" it's there somewhere I know, but where group co-hesion different projections circles in space ideas bounced space broken like a skipping stone upon water concentric circles ripple in response water in space floats, see through globules of floating matter reflecting space in a oily mirror Flash of light heat sun rays flare globules burst into crimson flame forever burning in their ever spinning dimensions where are we going? messages in fancy bottles-wires transmit speed of light information more than that intimacy, thoughts, feelings, philosphy, spirituality, technology, creativity all meet in a extension of firery rays magnetically clashings sparkings spinning out of control nothing to grasp on to but space where is the anchor floating out here is at one lonely at another powerful rays of ever burning fires connect to form a net floating tumbling diving being pulled attracted sucked in flowing into the grasp of liquid fire like sand into an hour glass meshed into the net swooosh sound reverberates across time and space their is darkness as the firery net invelops itself and it's passengers inside out swallowed up backwards squeezed carressed folded in time and space consciouness flows inside out err crash, snow white like the snow on a TV screen with out the noise flicker white light horizontal line swallowed into a tube into a small white light going gone I would like to reapear in COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS cause I am AQURIUS the water bearer nightmeres don't crackle like fire I swallow the gibberish in like air to burning lungs SOUND lots of it High loud, LOw soft exsplosion inplosion TOGETHER\ALONE bound by space & time I feel love|hate Feelings|Thoughts run wild rampant through me Scream in awe cause look whats happened NO end no start just you & I.... i & u u&i we&me shalla lalla la i'ts gotta start & end sometime ya know? _____________________ *TAMA JAMEY NEILL* 19 Haywood st, Mornington Dunedin, New Zealand *P:(03)4554627* *E-MAIL address:-* *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz* ____________________________ Custom-Sized Screen Realities: TURN ON TUNE IN BOOT UP "To be is to do" -Socrates "To do is to be" -Sartre "Do be do be do" -Sinatra Just say "Know" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:39:41 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Re: Holding space. Comments: cc: Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <31714e1d.53083786@vesta.chch.planet.co.nz> from "Walter Logeman" at Apr 14, 96 08:39:40 pm Hello Walter, Thanks for commenting on my writings; > > And Steve (etc.)-- newly emerged from "reading only" with writing on > hypnosis, NLP, and personal journey. I wonder what it is like to have > posted that here, and now awaiting a response? You know Walter, in 18 months of posting to the internet [mostly alt.hypnosis and alt.psychology.nlp] no-one has asked me how it *feels* to watch the reactions to one's opinions. The answer [like most of my stuff I guess :-)] is that I feel a sense of great satisfaction and a wave of good, positive feelings whenever my writings do some good for somebody, strike a chord or cause an intuitive leap. Part of my reason for lurking here rather than posting was that PSYBERNET has always seemed to me to be a very positive, supportive forum with friendly people genuinely interested in what others think; whereas the main Usenet forums of alt.hypnosis and alt.psychology.nlp were like a giant cauldron of hate, with flame after flame scorching out after anyone and everyone who dared to post. I became quite good after a while at directing my articles towards the genuinely interested participants, mostly practising hypnotists and quite a few published authors, by posting long , self-contained articles and ignoring the endless sordid tides of rubbish from the skeptics and cybterteurs. Getting involved in such a flamewar inevitably means unfortunately that courtesy, openness and hospitality towards other users quickly become casualties of war; as time went by in alt.hypnosis and alt.psychology.nlp an increasing number of the posts were from anonymous or bogus accounts, or from people with no interest in discussing the hypnosis and NLP techniques and every interest in discrediting people like Steve Parkhill - and so gradually my own posts got more and more hostile, more and more adverserial and less and less open. I though many times of posting to PSYBERNET but it is very hard to take off the Machiavelian hat and post open, friendly thoughts to a list full of genuinely nice people when you're involved in a literary bloodbath; I didnt want to pour out my anger and frustration on PSYBERNET, which is likely what I would have done had I tried to sustain a schizophrenic-like chinese wall in my mind between the cathedral of hate that alt.hypnosis has become, and the friendly, inviting place that is PSYBERNET. In effect, I used PSYBERNET as a kind of antidote to the negativity on Usenet; a place to get some respite from the baying hounds and swarming vultures elsewhere. Now alt.hypnosis and alt.psychology.nlp are no longer getting through to my newsfeed, and the flamewar is over, at least for me. I have more time to read PSYBERNET and other forums, and I am looking to apply the lessons I have learned to new media such as New World Media, a server set up to discuss the works of Noam Chomsky at www.worldmedia.com [And no, he's not 'anti-semitic'.] If you read the various articles I have contributed there, you will I hope understand my reluctance to post my opinions to PSYBERNET; they may be in context and on topic to begin with, but the scope of them is such [New World Order conspiracy, cures for cancer, love changes everything, etc.] that the discussions quickly press people's buttons and cause at best diversions and hijacks, at worst controversy and another literary bloodbath. Whereas I dont want to try and hijack PSYBERNET with my own ideas, I would by lying if I said I did not think that they are more important than the things which I have read about here - but then would not anyone think that of their own opinions? To round off then, I'll say what I always say when I'm asked how I feel about my contribution to cyberspace, although this is the first time I've been asked on the net; I would like everyone and anyone who finds my ideas interesting to read David Icke's book 'And the Truth shall set you free' which exposes the New World Order conspiracy. There, I've said it; but please folks, understand that if you ask me to defend my ideas & back them up here, I will do it - but I myself dont think it's either the right place for that or that it will add to the [considerable in my opinion] value of the list. Walter said: >I wonder how others > respond to it -- even more how I might respond ( like this for now). I didnt expect responses, even although Susan's gracious words touched me; I would like PSYBERNET to be a place where we can share freely without needing to get a response to feel vindicated or that we have gotten our 'strokes' as Eric Berne put it ; that we lurkers have spoken up and said loudly 'Yes, we are enjoying the conference and we appreciate your efforts - you are all good people and the efforts are welcome, interesting and useful; please keep it up and thank you very much' Would be a good thing to put in an FAQ, a plaque somewhere or Walter's web page; People of PSYBERNET, you are among friends here - please take this message as a season ticket for the words Thank You Interesting Encore Me Too etc. when I dont have time to respond. Best Regards Steve Murray Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:19:53 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: 666 vs Beauty & the Beast Dearest incarnation of Wicca, As for the number of the beast, I think that we can replace it with the name of the beast - Laurel. >Im sorry Walter that because of that you missed the humour in that >sentence...it wasnt an aside. It was a joke. I equate humour with >intelligence which is why I doubt that Robert took it personally. Madame, you are indeed correct. >Fred and the voices from the underground -- somewhat like the news >I have been led to believe that there is order in chaos. I expect its the >same with lists. >Laurel draws a pentagram in salt, throws a little water here and there and >places candles on the points.. there that ought to hold us Trace... At this point I enter with my cohort of Monks and chant the Kyrie. >Who wants borders or limitations.. growth is impossible within them. Ah, but what of the borders of the pentagram? Safety my cherished one, safety! Beware of wolves in sheeps' clothing. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:20:14 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: Early morning breezes A l'autre bout d'monde <-> A l'autre bout d'temps (At the other end of the world / At the other end of time) Head bowed ... ... the weight of a past filled with too many years ... and tears ... and silence ... that black virus - j'en ai assez ... (I've had enough) visions cast in shadow a time and place removed - a l'autre bout d'monde Hands that speak in tongues of armour welcoming and giving, never remorseful Hands that bridge time and space with a promise of gentleness and fullness. Reality intrudes ... ... the distance between hope ... and dream - a l'autre bout d'monde Reason conquers will ... a breached fortress - et j'en ai peur Those eyes swaddled in layers of thought pierce to the very soul Eyes touch and silence flees, dreams and hope arise - a l'autre bout d'temps Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:39:24 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: Dancing around a fire... WS>Metaphorically, there are several fires here, and several dances going WS>on, so a lot of us are left in between fires, lost in the wilderness.. WS> WS>Of course, what were are doing in the wilderness is quite amazing, and WS>we're all having fun, but we are also quite lost. Indeed we are, Wilbur. Have you or any of the others any ideas that might serve as a collective theme? I would be disappointed to lose what we have gained, but I do know that we must also find a way to bind together in order to survive as watering hole, an oasis, in the depths of cyberspace. Do we need a *task* as described in Judith's post? JB>It was fascinating to see the doers and the be-ers dance:-) or not. The JB>doers kept asking what the point was and the be-ers would respond- JB>being. The be-ers posted as if water coloring, playing and diverging. JB>The doers didn't want to color and wanted to converge ala Kolb's JB>learning style stuff. I loved it but then it allowed me to *be*. :-) JB>Eventually the participants dwindled to only be-ers probably a result JB>not the least of which was the anxiety - sort of like the doers throwing JB>up their hands at the lack of something concrete. Intention. IntentionS. Dialogue. Control. Power. Release. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:50:10 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: PSYBER: 666 vs Beauty & the Beast > > As for the number of the beast, I think that we can replace it with >the name of the beast - Laurel. > > > Ah, but what of the borders of the pentagram? Safety my cherished >one, safety! Beware of wolves in sheeps' clothing. > >Robert de Cyberie > Robert, I could be wrong, but we may have here a sheep in wolf's clothing. Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:01:10 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Fred Bauder Organization: SLV BBS Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast Dolores, You adopt a pose of evil... The point? Simply to destroy? I expect so...and you will probably succeed; but the rest of us, especially the list-owner much cooperate. Fred _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 21:33:01 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast Dolores, You adopt a pose of evil... The point? Simply to destroy? I expect so...and you will probably succeed; but the rest of us, especially the list-owner much cooperate. Fred.. Lighten up dearie Dolores (What do you think Wilbur...as its your role to cast me in different guises..Shiva?) She came, she saw, she was tempted -but decided he wasnt worth the effort. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:27:33 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Susan Z. Swan" Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast Fred--For heavens sake, even I've been enjoying Laurel/Dolores' shadow game (and I've been assured recently that I have no sense of humour--come to think of it she probably thought that too). Don't let us both be stick in the muds. Susan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:45:54 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast Alright, how about the role of Succubus? (sp? Woman creature that sucks the strength out of men..) or just plain old Temptress..? I can't believe that Fred is that liberal minded.. How about Imp? Or She - Devil? Whirling Dervish? Fred, I would conjecture that your attitude is what is already destroying this listserv.. It's alright to wax poetic, just as long as we don't use the word Devil? Talk about PC speak nonsense.. Wilbur At 09:33 PM 4/16/96 +0100, you wrote: >Dolores, > >You adopt a pose of evil... > >The point? > >Simply to destroy? > >I expect so...and you will probably succeed; but the rest of us, >especially the list-owner much cooperate. > > > >Fred.. > >Lighten up dearie > >Dolores > >(What do you think Wilbur...as its your role to cast me in different >guises..Shiva?) > >She came, she saw, she was tempted -but decided he wasnt worth the effort. > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:56:52 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: Holding space. Stephen, Thank you for the story.=20 >"There is space and then there is space; there is time and then there is= time." ... >There is cyberspace and then there is cyberspace. Perhaps our catagories >are not adequate. I was beginning to think that we were indeed wandering lost in the desert like Moses, having fun to be sure, but lost none-the-less. Then, with your story, Tama's poetry, Is=E9's poems, Steven M.'s stories, and the playful banter that abounds, I see that we are discovering this space as well as each other. Talk about a paradigm shift! How can we define our circles when we don't even know if the concept of circle is part of the basic vocabulary we need to create. Classical logic can't help us here as that type of logic is predicated upon a version of reality that can't even acknowledge our existence here. We're not lost. We're dynamically alive in our reaching out with hesitant words. The dialogues will locate us in space, in relation to each other (our being here defined in non-corporal terms. While we spin these threads into a web we build a home of sorts for this unique dimension of our essential self. I begin to doubt that the archetypal myths of our corporal entity can encompass the psyche of a listserv group, a group that is not a group, a list that refuses to be contained. No wonder that we feel disoriented. Our notions of reality are challenged, our beliefs of relation are in doubt (who amongst you have not reacted to a story or poem as directed personally to you when it appears on your screen for your eyes and ears?), our language is tentative. Before we can hope to identify a *task* to bring us together (looking outward -- objectifying), we need to dwell experientially together (a subjective *task* -- looking inward at our relation, our essence of being). Perhaps you may think I've wandered too far here, so be it. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:57:19 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: cyber.illusions - plus Is=E9>cyber.surrender RdeC> cyber.gender Is=E9>Into the joy that is our giving Is=E9>and the agony that is our need Is=E9>Into the night that is our longing Is=E9>and the day the gives us hope RdeC>Je te pris en joie en te donnant mon esprit RdeC> not a physical giving RdeC> not a physical taking RdeC> thought the desire is real RdeC> as is the pain of desire denied=20 Is=E9>Into the desire that is between us Is=E9>and knowledge that we are none Is=E9>Into the surrender of the deep emotion Is=E9>and the moment of our intent RdeC>Je te chante en donnant mon esprit RdeC> knowing that you hear my song RdeC> sensing your soul's surrender RdeC> caressing your depths RdeC> accepting your desire's intent =20 Is=E9>Into the miles that fold between us Is=E9>and the time we span in jest Is=E9>Into the silence of that weaving Is=E9>is the substance of a dream RdeC>Je te chuchote a travers l'espace de cyberie RdeC> distance and time RdeC> shadow and ghost RdeC> weft and weave RdeC> a whisper in your soul. > > >(c) Is'e >95.285.xx Robert de Cyberie (c) 96.04.16 Forgive the lack of accent marks. I fear that not all of your systems can accept their transfer succesfully. Robert _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:39:59 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: -=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List: Description -=-=-=-= -=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List -=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the effects of email groups and lists on group life and the psyche. The list is a starting point for professional depth psychological work on the net. Topics include: The art of leadership in communication networks. Creating communication environments. Gender issues. Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious. Special focus on how these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace. Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience of the medium. We voice that learning. Forming relationships of a collegial nature around our psychological, net interests is an important part of the work. The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which includes psychological professional services on the net such as one-to-one Personal Exploration and professionally facilitated email groups. The list is also a place for professional collaboration in the development of ethical depth work of this nature. Announcements about Psybernet services will be made in this list. The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman, no censorship or editing has taken place. Discussion of how the list is facilitated is integral to its purpose. Psyber-L is archived and these are available to members with an index psyber-l command to the listserv. To subscribe to PSYBER-L, send the a command to: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the BODY of e-mail: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname For example: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive confirmation request, then an acknowledgment, followed by a welcome message. To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to: LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM In the body of the email write: SIGNOFF PSYBER-L Last updated 31 March, 1996 Owner: Walter Logeman _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:28:30 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Dancing around a fire... In-Reply-To: Hi Robert, Wilbur, > WS>Metaphorically, there are several fires here, and several dances going > WS>on, so a lot of us are left in between fires, lost in the wilderness. I see three fires, and an area lit up in the middle -- do the Australian aboriginals have such a dance -- I recall something from my schooling there -- a Corroboree? (vague). I don't feel lost -- I just posted up the list description which is always available via GET command etc -- but thought it might be good to post again. I think it points the way -- or describes what we are up to & invites us to go beyond to other more focussed tasks. Robert, I think you said a while back: lets do such a *group*. I am finding this space interesting, new and occupying my energy -- somehow I want to focus here for a bit. Though I have projects brewing and others may too. One thing I think we have only touched on is the fee for a group. This whole area of charges on the Internet are such a challenge -- I would welcome a satisfactory discussion on that with regard to Psybernet in this list. Professional work on the net is one of the fires we are dancing around. Robert: > Indeed we are, Wilbur. Have you or any of the others any ideas that > might serve as a collective theme? I would be disappointed to lose what we > have gained, but I do know that we must also find a way to bind together in > order to survive as watering hole, an oasis, in the depths of cyberspace. Do > we need a *task* as described in Judith's post? We are doing a task at this moment I think -- and on topic with the list description. The metaphor of Dance and Fires has come to us! Is this not to explore metaphor and imagination especially as they relate to cyberspace? Perhaps what you are thinking is that it needs to be Defined as a TASK -- perhaps so we can ALL focus on it, to "bind together" . . . . I don't think so (at this point -- though the question is of strong interest) those who like this thread -- this probe -- will do it -- it is a case of survival of the fittest meme, (theme). Thus I like the idea of letting the group's work emerge, but not willy-nilly! The list description is a part of the forming of the holding space -- perhaps the most important thing we have for the temenos here. My role is another -- (my ego and unconscious stuff etc too god help us) -- one part of the role as facilitator . . . like a "traditional moderator" is to work towards keeping the group on topic. I am a strong advocate for the focus as stated in the list description. Let me say a more about the list description . . . The initial impulse was to set up a list like Group Psychotherapy ( an excellent list BTW ) However to speak _here_ of off line work is one thing, more interesting, an adventure, an exploration, is how work with group and psyche might work on the Internet! A list that covers that (to some extent) is NetDynam -- an interesting list IMO -- and I am looking forward to the writing that is being produced from that list as a result of Matt's suicide (the founder). The list description of that list differs in many ways from Psyber-L -- one is that it states that it is "emphatically not for psychotherapy " (I have not got it in front of me -- ill check later) -- Psyber-L this is not _for_ therapy but for _experiential learning_. What we do here is the material we study! It is a matter of emphasis, there is no exclusion of personal material, yet this is not a therapy space -- it is a learning space. This is really in keeping with many learning traditions in depth work, training analysis in the analytical schools and psychodrama training tradition as well. There is plenty list description to indicate a preference for _modality_; depth, psyche, imagination and thus avoid the worst modality wars. While the list is not Jungian or firmly entrenched in any school -- it will be more attractive to Jungians than say, cognitive behavioural therapists -- yet all are welcome. A last point: The list aims at exploring professional work on the net, and being a starting point for that. This clearly distinguishes this list from the 'self-help" traditions on and off the net. At the same time just how psyche & group work can be ethically done here -- or even what it is called is not settled. I hope my consciousness & enthusiasm for what Judith called the "superordinate intention" , also has been called the "prime directive" and simply the list description, can be _shared_ . The description BTW has evolved over three years and while I have written it I have altered it as a result of the discussion on this list (mostly fine tuning). I am less inclined to do that again -- this is what people have signed up for -- and there is plenty of room in cyberspace for other developments. I trust this effort helps to create a secure place in which to be lost (thanks Judith). Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 21:43:59 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Tama.Neill" Subject: Bonfire dance Hi I'd be right in for a bit of a dance around the Fire now!! out under or floating with the stars warm blood flowing pumping through the body communial sharing of energy & excitement Ya hooing into the night warming cold hands by the fire contemplating life joining hands with one another peace communion tales songs poems inner convictions let out exsploring the depth of soul finding the child with in I'm still happy to be just a boy Tama _____________________ *TAMA JAMEY NEILL* 19 Haywood st, Mornington Dunedin, New Zealand *P:(03)4554627* *E-MAIL address:-* *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz* ____________________________ Custom-Sized Screen Realities: TURN ON TUNE IN BOOT UP "To be is to do" -Socrates "To do is to be" -Sartre "Do be do be do" -Sinatra Just say "Know" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 22:18:06 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Tama.Neill" Subject: More Poetry from Tama. Here's some poetry I wrote It's so hard being cool I feel like areal sentimental fool constricted, held tight in a straight jacket I'm just an aquintance not a Lover she gets drunk flirts with funk she wants you Kate I try to see the amusing side keep occuppied feel happy But it's false should of gone up to you & been straight Hey I like you but I feel like retreating back into a shell somewhere warm & dark where no Siren can sing to me. Well that poem was about a situation where I went to Watch Kate & her friend Claudia in a comedy competition, they got free beer & got rahther drunk, Claudia was all over kate, all Kates attention was on Claudia, I felt left out.I like my attention I must admit, I had my mothers fully till I was about four then along came a young man who she got together with.Don't be silly Tama, Freud was a bit under delveloped can't blame much to child hood.But one of my fears is definetly not being included in groups & being cold on the outside. Already involved with you took just one kiss I miss weak you let me through I huffed & I puffed & broken into Intense sensual delight I felt your silky smooth tender skin tasted of your lips carresed your neck & cheek looked into your eyes even sucked from your breast vunerable but let down you had to go I'm not included That's one of my big fears being on the outside can I come in for a while or should I just let go Heal stop being complicated simple life it's interesting experience but feel safer on my own no way to be let out... Well that was a bit sad huh, well actually I meet kate today & we talked in the botanical gardens by a fountain watching the sun go down, laughing, resting on each other I did not retreat but said I wanted to stop stuffing around with each other & stop Freinds contemplative but she could turn it on & off like a tap heart controlled by brain not me, casual involvement nah but she did happen to mention that we could have a drink sometime & have sex is'nt that strange I'll wait until the dust settles could be fun shalla la la ha ha ! I need myself Plummet the depth find the missing side let it out I still want need feels like-me of course Intimate Commited together Need water fire is too hot to fickle hot then smokey take the air away & it's out water floating swimming tossed & turned on waves rideing the high to shore screaming in excitement I wanna share the waters cool carm tranqil ripples to see the side that's me Hopping from rock to rock tide splashing against wall sand wet & springy fiddleing fumbling on flippers walking backwards not to fall over jump in paddling ou to sea cold rush wave head buffeted by wave after wave finally out there relaxing down looking around tasting salt moved by currents big wave coming gonna catch me a ride on it yea ha arrrghgh such adrenalin on top of it rushing towards beach -rush me- sand soft wow OK That stuff written last night-except the one about in the gardens. later. lets make some space & inhabit it!! _____________________ *TAMA JAMEY NEILL* 19 Haywood st, Mornington Dunedin, New Zealand *P:(03)4554627* *E-MAIL address:-* *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz* ____________________________ Custom-Sized Screen Realities: TURN ON TUNE IN BOOT UP "To be is to do" -Socrates "To do is to be" -Sartre "Do be do be do" -Sinatra Just say "Know" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 22:50:41 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: More Poetry from Tama. In-Reply-To: > lets make some space & inhabit it!! Tama -- you do that. I write about edges and you inhabit that space -- so boldly! Wow. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:39:08 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: new website & invitation Psybernauts, Walter: Concerning one of the many fires around which we are gathering on Psyber-L... I'm delighted to be able to point you in the direction of my HipBone Games website at: >>> http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ The HipBone Games are my attempt to devise "playable" forms of the Glass Bead Game which Hermann Hesse describes in his Nobel-winning novel, *Magister Ludi*, and if any of you know and like the book, you'll probably find this site and its various links interesting -- while if you're interested in my Games, I'd certainly recommend you pick up a copy of the book... * The Games you'll find at the HipBone site are the kind we've been playing on this list, and include the "Bear Madonna" Dream Game, which is a sample of the possible use my Games can be put to in dream analysis... and while my recent Game with Steve Calhoun on Psyber-L is not up at this particular site, you can access it at his web site, beginning at: >>> http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html * Please feel free to contact me if you'd like to be included as a dreamer, observer or player, in a subset of Psyber-L, one of Walter's "small groups" which will soon be playing another Dream Game or two... Best wishes to all, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:13:28 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Dancing around a fire... < I trust this effort helps to create a secure place in which to be lost (thanks Judith). Walter> And to you walter. Great being *lost* here;-) Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:09:04 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dancing around a fire... And I wonder at the cycle of it all as you, Robert, describe my experience of the dialogue research project. < Intention. IntentionS. Dialogue. Control. Power. Release. Robert de Cyberie> And I wonder at analogues which can be juxtaposed against our experience here, and for me it is Louis & Clark, and Balboa, and Vasco de Gamma-threads as tributaries some take other's stop to watch the flow, still others document the journey. When adventuring, there is the adventure, the excitementanticipation of the aroundthecornerness of it all OTOH it may be like panning for gold-ya gotta sift a lot of stuff to find one's gold nugget:-) And with the poetry here I've struck it rich... Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:22:46 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast Entering late in the second act to find the roles well cast;-) Judith, in the role of audience >Since I have been cast in role of devil here, (thank you so so much Wilbur, >- I would have hated to sacrifice the scapegoat on the lawn under a full >moon) I have risen once more from the sulphrous, stinking pits of hell..to >post. The entire point of nominating you as the devil was so that you would be the scapegoat, and so that I could avoid that role.. ;-P Hey, I'm not the scapegoat! baaahhh... baaawwwahhhh! (ooopppsss!) Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:17:02 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning Psyberians, It is strange how life leads us down certain paths at special times. When I read the following contribution by John (XMEFF), I again became convinced that there is no such thing as coincidence. RdeC>>Morning is truly a private time, a time for disclosure to one's own RdeC>>self. I appreciate the <> that you paint as coming from a RdeC>>deep place. XM>Part of it comes from early remembrances triggered by recent events and XM>part of it comes from, oddly enough, the art and mechanics of research XM>grant proposal writing, not my own but something that could be XM>conceivable. There is the idea that some species of birds may go XM>extinct if the noise of modern technology, things like bulldozers, XM>shotguns, etc., encroaches on their space. If you rely heavily on XM>auditory communication when light conditions are dim and you can't hear XM>a mating call, how do you find your mate? Since mating is a biological activity, it only makes sense that the biological senses should highlight the valued activity of survival. The noise that drowns the songs of mating also dooms the species unable to find their mates. This mating (biological) makes me wonder about on-line relationships. Can we consider that the aspect of self that comes to the fore on-line is that which is not biological, but intellectual and/or beyond the intellect (a higher plane of evolution)? As such, the matings that occur on-line could then be complete without a biological imperative for completion. We are indeed several beings with agendas that are often in direct conflict. We are not our cells -- our cells could not be conscious of the need for art, poetry, math -- they value and understand a cellular world, cellular needs. We are not our body -- our body values the messy world of phlegm, feces, and sex. We are not our mind -- the fears, the dreams, the problems, the ideology with which our mind occupies itself. We are all of these and none of these. Remove a sense (sight) and we remain ourselves. Remove a thought, a belief and still we are intact as ourselves. That which we are is more than the sum total of all the cells and all the mental activity travering though our synapses. Yet we can't deny our biological, intellectual, and spiritual aspects -- in fact, we need them. We need the morning and the songs of birds. XM>. . . a deep place? I would think of it as the mixing bowl. RdeC>>I agree, the words don't have to be true. But, I do think that Rdec>>their inspiration and source do find their roots in authenticity. XM>Robert, I can't find myself disagreeing with what you say here. That's XM>good, but I still have that inner drive to make distinctions. XM>When we've gone as far as we can go, how do we answer the question: XM>"What is the nature of the world?" I can ask a similar question: XM>"What is music?" Is it patterns of information expressed through the XM>interaction of energy and matter? Now, what is matter at its most basic XM>level? I find myself needing to echo you. Music is not just the mathematical value of soundwaves. Music is dependant upon the receptor as much as the transmitter. Music is more than the notes. Music defies being defined. How are we then able to make distinctions? What is music to one human is noise to another, is silence to yet another; yet the sense of music is understood without being taught, without being intellectualized. I have rambled on again. I wonder if these rambling have any value to the group? I have this habit of spinning webs from bits of incandescent light. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:17:22 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: new website & invitation Charles, I'd like to take you up on your offer: >Please feel free to contact me if you'd like to be included as a dreamer, >observer or player, in a subset of Psyber-L, one of Walter's "small >groups" >which will soon be playing another Dream Game or two... I'd be willing to take on any role that could use my participation. I haven't yet read the book *Magister Ludi*, but I will do so at the soonest. Please let me know of any developments regarding the next Dream Game. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:53:53 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Newcomer's High! On 17 Apr 96 19:57:16 +0200, "Pajunen Sami MERIKOSKI" wrote: * Dear Sir, Walter, I tried to send this message through listserve to PSYBER-L but couldn't quite manage it. If you'd be so kind as to forward it, I'd be most grateful... Yours, Sami Pajunen ** Hi There Fellow Psyberians! As I am new to this list, physically - and to all other lists BTW - I'd like to make an announcement. First of all I'd like to thank you, each and every one of you, Fellow Psyberians, for your rich contribution to this list. It has been important to me to see all this discussion evolve here. I am a member of one philosophical society and we had just a meeting there some two weeks ago where we decided to enlarge our ongoing discussion to net. This was very important decision to this society of ours, and it was much because of my positive experiences in this net and in this Psyber-space of yours (as a lurker...), that this decision came to being. Secondly, I thank you for this opportunity to join in and have space for myself. I have waited a long time for a thread of conversation, that I could feel as my own. And when I read Susan's ...on civility and language..., I felt that time is ripe for me to enter... Thirdly, I am grateful of the opportunity to discuss with you, as I feel that you are in so many ways superior to myself, and together we might create something unique, something different, something positively applicable to our everyday lives. So a brief introduction: I am finnish male psychologist, age 30 something. I work in a rehabilitation and research center mainly doing group-work myself. My main interest is at this moment in psychodrama (I am a psychodramatist-to-be) and it's methods of spiritual growth. That's why I subscribed. I'm also fund of Jung, Assagioli and all the Great Thinkers, and I've practiced a kind of raja-yoga for 12 years. I am a semi-classical composer and enjoy Arts very much. I'll welcome all new ideas relating to Growth and Work (as Ouspensky/Gurdjieff) defined it). Yours spaciously, Sami (pron. sah-me) email: Sami.Pajunen@tiimi.merikoski.fi _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 00:57:26 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: CHC-Dan Randow Subject: An email story you might like Text item: Text_1 Hello Psyber-L and may I take this opportunity to congratulate you on your burgeoning numbers. A brief intro: Because of my other commitments and interests, I am not an active participant in the list but have, however been a subscriber (mostly a lurker) for over a year. One of the 'interests' I refer to is my friendship with Walter - whom you know. Sometimes 'friendship' does not seem the right word as much as 'co-explorers navigating currents much more powerful than ourselves' (what do you think, Walt?). Tonight, Walter and I are going rock climbing and I'm looking forward to that. In my work I help to 'bend' computers to my clients (people and organisations) but sometimes I still get to do a bit of my last job - bending people to computers. The story: Yesterday I trained 5 people for half a day in the use of cc:Mail (internal only). In the first 5 minutes it was revealed that all were pretty comfortable with keyboard, mouse, windows etc so I briefly showed them how to send and read mail and then sat down at a PC myself. We then created a veritable mail storm. I addressed all my mail to everyone and they quickly sussed 'reply to all'. People discussed anything and everything and also asked me many questions like 'how do i...?' which I answered to all. They all started demonstrating that they were using new features like changing font and colour plus cc: etc. After a brief time, I asked them (via email) whether they wished to return to f2f or carry on the course via email. They all said email and so we carried on. Despite a few "whew!" breaks and a couple of issues we addressed in f2f, the rest of the training happened via email - all in one small room. We addressed 'use of the software' issues plus quite a few 'effective use of email' and 'what is "right"/"wrong" in this new environment' and net issues. It was a heap of fun and they seemed very warmed up to the idea of email as they left. It feels good to be doing this for a job! Anyone doing similar things? I'm off to see my beautiful kids now. Dan _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:05:27 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning In-Reply-To: Hi Robert & all, You wrote: > I find myself needing to echo you. Music is not just the > mathematical value of soundwaves. Music is dependant upon the receptor as > much as the transmitter. Music is more than the notes. Music defies being > defined. How are we then able to make distinctions? What is music to one > human is noise to another, is silence to yet another; yet the sense of music > is understood without being taught, without being intellectualized. And then you ask: > I wonder if these rambling have any value > to the group? I have this habit of spinning webs from bits of incandescent > light. Music -- Stephen may tell you, has been a way of speaking of what we do here. It is not a theme that just idly drifts by! The flow here lends , even demands to be seen as music & dance. We are listening to the Song of the Dawn. Your post is a note in the score, and harmonises with our themes. There are no coincidences, just as you speak of music / noise Judith does so using the metaphor of sifting through sand for gold and striking it rich with the poetry here. It is time for fires in the northern hemisphere -- beltane -- may day -- and we have them here (in Psyber-L ) , with dance, music and poems. _Through_ the content, to the themes & the patterns make a song & a dance. There is a rhythm too between the making music & dancing and listening to the music & watching. writing & reading voicing & listening performance & audience lost & secure judging & accepting belonging & being on the outside in the circle & out of the circle (or pentagram!) Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:50:46 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . . John said, sampling from me: >>> >From a pure logical point of view I transformed your >statement into a request if I did understand right, giving the >example of . . . I'm sorry, I really don't feel like responding likewise. <<< Your feelings are ok in that context. Disappointment may lead to mistrust. >>> >Here I'm not sure what is meant by "communicating" . . . Entities communicate. <<< Sounds tautologous; mind to explain your 'entity' concept ?? >>> >My personal feeling is simply that they type along in this list >without any regard to how their linguistic behavior may feel >to others - bursting into explanations instead, if responses >don't match expectations. Of course, but with yourself excluded. <<< Nothing to admire; I try hard, but can't avoid it altogether. >>> >And this, perhaps, led you to the abbreviature "Language is a >lie"? In this context I quite understand, thank you. What are you tripping on, Mila? <<< Thank you again for the joy flash when I understood your words within their appropriate context you then provided, John. Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:10:51 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning < I have rambled on again. I wonder if these rambling have any value to the group? I have this habit of spinning webs from bits of incandescent light. Robert de Cyberie> Music to my eyes Robert... judith humming as she begins her day -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 13:10:36 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Re: Language and communities Robert, thank you for expressing your enthusiasm. For the experts, I may add some tech remarks on aiding behavior on *true* therapeutic lists. Withdrawal in FtF comm isn't real silence; facial expression gives enough direc- ting cues to discourage the unwanted behavior. As most people are conditioned to adapt to wishes of their entourage, they're accustomed to receive a steady flow of averbal cues from which to select for use in own development. Even if they receive ignoring, those ignoring give subtle hint as to why they ignore; so the victims of this behavior have a chance to use the hints in their development On lists, there are no such cues, however. No one is even able to give account to her/himself what to remark en passant about msgs s/he's not going to respond to. Thus, complete absence of response does *never* tell the neglected poster how to adapt; it doesn't contribute to her/his development. Absence of any prodding whatever can be construed as expectancy of the list members "let's see what comes next from that buddy" - and *thus* as a freedom to utter *anything* that barely fits into the topical frame of the list. As freedoms can best be illustrated by extreme examples of what they entail, the faerie dream construction topic came to mind. >>> I like the idea of a faerie-dream (something tells me that Walter would enjoy this wuite a bit as well). This might be what is needed by some in their exploration of the *psychology* of a listserv. <<< Glad to agree with you about the topic's own right in our list. >>> And what does this alter-ego cat do to impersonate moi-meme? And what does this alter-ego cat do to impersonate moi-meme? (oops - double pasting) Well - its silk-velveteen touch makes it already king of our household in reali- ty - so how do you feel as a wonderful soft-skinned king ?? Bonnes pensees a vous, Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:30:49 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Newcomer's High! In-Reply-To: <3176575e.6183173@vesta.chch.planet.co.nz> Hi... Welcome to the list. I am also a newcomer but I wanted to reply to your interest in psychodrama. I am also very interested in it, being an amateur thespian. I think that tremendous growth can come out of it. Also, another way I have found to access my spirituality has been through breath work, or body-centered therapy. I realize that as I was growing up I held my breath alot, and breathed very shallowly from my chest. Now that I breathe from my diaphragm (something we all learned from drama, but I had only used to project), I feel much safer and much closer to my spiritual self. I found that psychology provided me with the insight, but did not make me feel any safer. Safety is more a matter of faith and spirituality. BTW, I am first generation American, my family is German, and I am the first to go to college. I'm getting a Master's in Counseling in May, and then entering a doctoral program in Human Resource Development. I live in Colorado. I used to live in New York. I've traveled to Europe many times, although I've never been to your country--the closest is Sweden. Nice to meet you. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:32:12 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Language and communities At 01:10 PM 4/18/96 +0200, you wrote: >Robert, >thank you for expressing your enthusiasm. For the experts, I may add some tech >remarks on aiding behavior on *true* therapeutic lists. >Withdrawal in FtF comm isn't real silence; facial expression gives enough >directing cues to discourage the unwanted behavior. On the other hand, the lack of a face also prevents the nuances that can be expressed when there is a face.. the lack of immediacy, the loss of full human emotion.. As human's, our primary method of communication is face to face, we learned very early on that our mother's face provided sustenance.. We learned to read the nuance.. nuance that can only be alluded to via the typed word.. Sometimes the flash of a smile or the twist of the brow is enough to show the attitude of the person .. Perhaps the suicide that has been discussed a bit would have been avoided if someone could have seen his face.. Discussion via typing requires a great deal of of very specific training and emotional disconnection.. There aren't many people that are capabile of expressing the full depth of emotion via the written word. If there were, then we wouldn't celebrate that that can. As someone that has spent time with people that write for a living, and written a thing or two, I can venture the opinion that expression of emotion in written words requires a great deal of effort and disconnection. The slowing down and self examination to get just the right wording, to catch the proper nuance, the repeated practice, feels a lot like working out the theme to a piece of music.. The expression provides a release, but perhaps the following example will make clear what I'm trying to express.. I worked in Paris for 3 months a couple of years ago, and since I speak German already, and used to listen to my mother speak Luxembourgish, I figured that if I practices total immersion in the language I'd be able to eventually absorb the language. (pretty hard to do when you are writing software in English during the day..) Anyway, separated from my family, my daughter, I watched French television at night, and eventually my need for human connection brought the meaning of French to me. But on the flight back, I watched "Man Without A Face" and was totally blow away. I was sitting in first class, crying like a baby.. Just on the strength of being able to connect in my native tongue, I floated away and lost control.. So being able to reach out and make the human connection via the keyboard is possible, but it doesn't reach the same level as full human involvement does. (SuperTramp still sounds great as a background to this.. "Take The Long Way Home.") Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:15:29 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Language and communities In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960418143212.00cab974@monmouth.com> Wilbur, Your comments on emotion and e-mail were very interesting. There are times when the lack of emotional nuance can be helpful. For example, my sister and I have a very difficult time communicating with each other because we have so much baggage. But on e-mail, we can say what we need to without interruption, and plainly, and it's easier to believe without reading any nuances into it. Our first real, deep, info sharing happened on e-mail, and I don't think could have happened FtF. Interesting? Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:50:09 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Sharmila Pixy Ferris Subject: Re: -=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List: Description -=-=-=-= In-Reply-To: <3174f385.1197776@vesta.chch.planet.co.nz> I have been reading with interest the discussion on the nature of language, characteristics of cybercommunication and enjoying the poetry in this group over the past month. The "lurker" theme has been particularly entertaining, and I've enjoyed seeing so many lurkers come out --so much so that I'm joining them!. Anyway, this message is occasioned by Walter's recent posting describing the nature of the list and elucidating topics. I think that such services do much to ensure the continuity of a group that's necessarily somewhat fragmented and diffuse. Just one of the many features I like about this listserv --thanks Walter. A topic I did not see mentioned was that of culture. The issue of the unique culture of cyberspace is a really interesting one that seems to be well within the purview of this listserv. I'd like to throw it out to you all: what do you think. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:13:35 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: an offering So poetry seems to be one of the list topics these days... An offering, then: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For Helen One book is like another. This book strikes you like lightning forking the exact pathways of the nerves. Sun entering a bridal chamber is not more subtle. Thunder filling the cavity of the skull is not more sure. Needles along the meridians are not more deftly placed than these words: for this is indeed poetry, alien, blind -- mapping you closely as the constellation of your birth. You may fork left here, make those choices, vary yourself along a myriad of parameters, hesitate, falsify, deceive, stumble: but this voice, these words arriving from Hopkins or Rilke, Yeats or Jeffers, these precision musics precede you as final cause predicts and plots all processes of life. We are struck not once, Helen -- but a library of times. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Best wishes, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:57:44 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: marcus west Subject: Brevity Hello, I switched on to receive 326 e-mails from this list - which shows how frequently I log on and am finally moved to post a message, having lurked for some good long time. I would read all that was posted but there were so many words, so much thinking and theorising going on. I couldn't find the heart of it. I would like to know how may people are on the list. Do you give out that kind of information Walter ? Yours briefly, Marcus _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:50:50 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Steven B. Hoath, M.D." Subject: Re: Newcomer's High! >On 17 Apr 96 19:57:16 +0200, "Pajunen Sami MERIKOSKI" > wrote: >My main interest is at this moment in psychodrama (I am a >psychodramatist-to-be) and it's methods of spiritual growth. Over the past year, I have been become convinced that online interactions in cyberspace can be looked at as a powerful form of psychodrama. I'm primarily talking here of online conversations using Mirc type software...email, of course, is a slower version of this type of communication, so I suspect that we're talking about a continuum...letter writing ===> email ===> online interactive "chats". In general, the word "chat" is a poor choice for the potential I've experienced of using cyberspace for constructive role playing. This potential seems to be limited only by one's imagination and his/her choice of partners. There are, of course, many issues relating to deception and the possibility of using cyberspace (psyberspace) for emotional and/or spiritual harm as well as for positive growth...not much different from real life in this regard. In an earlier post I tried to convey my personal experience in cyberspace through the form of a story...which was more truth than fiction. One of the points of the story was to convey the degree of bonding and intimacy achievable via this medium. There also seems to be a pioneer spirit among many of the people I've met in cyberspace...a recognition that this medium places a premium upon the use of the imagination...that it is a new type of interpersonal communication which is in a state of active growth and exploration. >I'll welcome all new ideas relating to Growth and Work (as >Ouspensky/Gurdjieff) >defined it). I'm intrigued that you relate the psychological aspects of cyberspace to the work of Ouspensky and Gurdjieff. This may be a very fruitful area of study. In fact, I suspect that the comparison of the structure of cyberspace and the structure of the mind is more than a simple analogy. The authors you quote had some very interesting approaches to modeling time, for example. These models have application to both physics and psychology. (If you are interested, the British psychologist Maurice Nicoll's book entitled "Living Time" is a good introduction to this area.) I believe it is likely that our personal experience of time and the way we model or process time perceptually is closely connected to the way we perceive ourselves physically and spiritually. Any thoughts in this area by the group? Full of questions, The Rover _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:13:33 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. >FOLLOW THAT STAR---A CYBERSTORY I find many threads here that parallel the story of my corporal essence. The search in philosophic tomes, the search in music, the search in the faces of countless people met on the roads of North America while hitch-hiking, the search within relationship and family. This bard, too, found the heady spaces of Cyberia, and found many faces of himself. SH>Still the rover was discontent. He realized that his constantly SH>changing cyberform never approximated his mortal guise. In fact, the SH>rover realized that he steadfastly avoided translating reality into SH>cyberspace and he wondered why. Interesting imagery here that raises a question: Are we immortal beings here (our words are archived)? That the *rover* "avoided translating reality into cyberspace," raises another question: What is it about the self we find in this dimension that is not *real*? As you pointed out Stephen, we are constantly changing our being taking on many different faces. Yet, each of these faces is a reflection, a mirror if you will, of that which of the being that I am, the being that you are. One day one weighs 15 lbs more than one weighed two seasons in the past. One is then defined with the reality of those extra pounds. One loses those pounds and five more besides. Does one then lose a part of our *reality* and become less of who we are? One loses a leg -- is one the less? One loses some of the ability to hear, to see -- yet still the being remains intact. I can't seem to accept the fact that without a f2f dimension, I can't have reality (blind people do exist and are real and do sense the reality of their being). SH>He also realized he was experimenting with the bounds of his SH>imagination...with the forbidden and hidden aspects of his personality. Therein lies the attraction and power of cyberspace. It is precisely this that will allow this medium to help us work with the psyche. SH>Her words sang with imagination and a bubbling stream of humor. The SH>rover became afraid. He was not stupid nor was he naive. In all his SH>journeys through cyberspace he had studiously SH>avoided the entanglements of mixing real life with his constantly SH>changing cyberself. Still, the mermaid was an undeniable attraction. Cybersex, cyberrelationship, cybermating. It is real. >More than this, however, the rover came to realize what he had dreamed so >long ago. He realized that his longing could only be satisfied by joining >with another...that by himself he was incomplete. That such a revelation could be occasionned by the wanderings in cyberia is usseful to those who would help guide those needing to make the same conceptual discoveries. SH>The rover discovered that all his imagined transformations in cyberspace SH>had only served to make real his innermost essence...his central SH>self...and it was this self which longed to be shared. SH>The rover became willing to be vulnerable...he became willing to be SH>hurt. Walter, I hope that this story gives us some ideas about directions that we could travel together as a _list_, as an unbound circle. Do we dare to be vulnerable and hurt? Do we dare to discover the self at this deeper level that is not limited by biology? Stephen, thanks for the story of this particular Cyberian rover. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:03:13 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: Newcomer's High! Salutations to both Pajunen and Barbara, P>I am a member of one philosophical society and we had just a meeting P>there some two weeks ago where we decided to enlarge our ongoing P>discussion to net. This was very important decision to this society of P>ours, and it was much because of my positive experiences in this net and P>in this Psyber-space of yours (as a lurker...), that this decision came P>to being. I'd be very interested in hearing how the *net* experiences develop with your philosophical society. I'd be willing to learn more of your group's focus and vision. Perhaps you'd be willing to share some of this information with me, even if off-list. > P>Thirdly, I am grateful of the opportunity to discuss with you, as I P>feel that you are in so many ways superior to myself, and together we P>might create something unique, something different, something positively P>applicable to our everyday lives. Here, I must disagree. If anything, this assembly called Psyber-l has shown us that there is no distinction that would entitle any one person to be a *superior* being. We are different and we are beginning to revel in our diversity. And, as you note, we are indeed engaged in building. B>Safety is more a matter of faith and spirituality. And what can this place/space/time do to support/encourage/develop a sense of safety so that all can grow spiritually? B>There are times when the lack of emotional nuance can be helpful. B>on e-mail, we can say what we need to without interruption, and plainly, B>and it's easier to believe without reading any nuances into it. This vignette about your conversation with your sister points to some very real advantages where saftey is ensured, safety for the psyche of the participants and safety for the message. Welcome to both of you. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:03:23 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: Language and communities Mila, I should have guessed that I would note have been able to hide the fact that I, like my alter-ego cat, have an abundance of silken hair that protects my complete body (Mila, your psychic powers are formidable). Is he dark haired like me? Is he quiet and sure yet sensitive? That I should be king. Do I hold court, give favour, suffer the weight of responsibility? That the Lady should grant this upstart with nobility bespeaks of *her* power, *her* greatness. I hope that I may serve m'lady well as the bearer of her colours in this land called Psyberia. a votre service chere Dame de Psyberie Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:03:32 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning Walter, Judith, dancers, bards, and audience in Cyberia, There is poetry in your images, Walter. WL>There is a rhythm too between the making music & dancing and listening WL>to the music & watching. WL> WL>writing & reading WL> WL>voicing & listening WL> WL>performance & audience WL> WL>lost & secure WL> WL>judging & accepting WL> WL>belonging & being on the outside WL> WL>in the circle & out of the circle (or pentagram!) These vibrant signs of life where there exists only invisible waves, an impossible reality. Where is this Cyberspace? There is no map. When is this Cyberspace? Time is ignored. Who is this Cyberspace? Ghosts of physical bodies. Why this Cyberspace? Pull the plug and it disappears. Yet, for all these whisps of nothing we find music, dance, love, hate, intellect, society, language, and a nascent sense of history -- we find culture. Cyberia--a land of mirrors. Each spirit I meet brings another mirror with which I can see yet another reflection of my *self*. I, too, am a mirror. My own view (our view--collective) of myself is one of many reflections, each distorted, each true. Face-to-face reflections, voice-to-voice reflections, touch-to-touch reflections, mind-to-mind relflections, soul-to-soul. The words on my screen reflect as I come to see another aspect of my *self* in them, a hierarchy of selves -- biological, social, intellectual, spiritual -- until perhaps I catch a glimpse of the *essence* of my *self* that transcends these bounded reflections. This is a breath-taking place, time, community, and culture this Psyberia. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 22:49:25 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Lisa D. McCulley" Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning >WL>There is a rhythm too between the making music & dancing and listening >WL>to the music & watching. There exists music which is incomplete without the dancer....for instance, some African music: in which the drum and instruments are only part of the whole...it is the dancers feet, the dancers steps that complete the beat. To listen to the music without the dancer to provide the completion is to only experience a part of the beauty, a part of the whole. There exist places in our hearts and souls that are incomplete....missing the drum beat perhaps. Is that the heartbeat of another soul? A book of poetry that stirs our blood? Music that leaves us quivering? A work of art that takes our breath away? I am whole. and yet I am incomplete. Ever I search for the music to accompany my dancing feet. As I change, so my search changes, so do my steps..... each new dance is a special joy. Ever I search for the dance to complete the beat of my song....perhaps it is my own feet that have been too long still, perhaps it is my own mouth that has been too long silent...perhaps it is my eyes that have been too long unseeing.....perhaps it is my soul that has been to long unsharing. RdeCt: -- until perhaps I catch a glimpse of the *essence* of my *self* that transcends these bounded reflections. It is within our boundaries, both real and imposed, that we come to know ourselves beyond our limitations. That we come to find the freedom of those limitations and the endless variations within it. In sharing a bit of ourselves.....we come to our Self...in ways we could not before, because we did not have that reflection of thought. Here, where our words come back to us: disassembled, reassembled, interpreted, misinterpreted...we find hitherto unknown thoughts and feelings course through us and we dare the rapids of our own desires: laid bare before an audience unseen, unknown....and all the disparate parts of us: the neglected child, the wounded lover, the patient friend...and all the others... twine through the warp and weft of the tapestry that Is us: the tangled threads of the lives we have led...those leading to the past we may chose to forget...those beckoning to a future we may chose to forgo....and ultimately, the one clear path that leads back to the self, to the soul, to the joy and light that is us. and we tremble. > This is a breath-taking place.... For the first time in my life I can breath.......and what I inhale infuses my soul with energy and vitality and my fingers itch to dance across a keyboard that spills my soul in light waves and particles, infused with the moment that was me: .perhaps reflective, perhaps joyous, perhaps mischevious, perhaps.....you will know when the words touch you....perhaps not. We cannot share what will not be received. When I open mail I open a pathway to my heart and let you in.... shall we dance? Is'e _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:56:09 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Newcomer's High! In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960418215050.0067dfe4@uc.edu> Steven Sami: > >My main interest is at this moment in psychodrama (I am a > >psychodramatist-to-be) and it's methods of spiritual growth. Steven: > Over the past year, I have been become convinced that online interactions in > cyberspace can be looked at as a powerful form of psychodrama. I'm > primarily talking here of online conversations using Mirc type > software...email, of course, is a slower version of this type of > communication, so I suspect that we're talking about a continuum...letter > writing ===> email ===> online interactive "chats". Ø In general, the word Good to see a few psychodramatists here, or are you using the term in a more generic sense? What is Mirc? On the continuum of media you mention: _time_ is one factor that changes in each of these media – hence different aspects of the psyche are illuminated – What do you think? > "chat" is a poor choice for the potential I've experienced of using > cyberspace for constructive role playing. This potential seems to be > limited only by one's imagination and his/her choice of partners. Are there specific sites or places you would recommend ? (Others, Fred and Dolores? might have some ideas on this.) > One of the > points of the story was to convey the degree of bonding and intimacy > achievable via this medium. There also seems to be a pioneer spirit among > many of the people I've met in cyberspace...a recognition that this medium > places a premium upon the use of the imagination...that it is a new type of > interpersonal communication which is in a state of active growth and > exploration. Exactly! Interesting that just at this moment in the list this notion is surfacing in several posts. I am thinking of my friend Dan’s story of the trainees who immediately opted for email communication over f2f. I the discussion in the Language and Communities thread the theme is also on the agenda. I read about Ira Progroff writing workshops. He describes how even in silence while people are writing in a group there is a sense of sharing and communing. I sometimes wish to do this in a beautiful room while we are all present in rl. > In fact, I suspect that the comparison of the structure of cyberspace and > the structure of the mind is more than a simple analogy. I think so. We are working within the bounds of the archetypal forces. Perhaps the structure of language ties in too. > These models have application to both physics and psychology. (If you are > interested, the British psychologist Maurice Nicoll's book entitled "Living > Time" is a good introduction to this area.) I believe it is likely that our > personal experience of time and the way we model or process time > perceptually is closely connected to the way we perceive ourselves > physically and spiritually. Any thoughts in this area by the group? An important area to look at as the asynchronous nature of our time structure – is one of the key unique factors of this form. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:56:05 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast In-Reply-To: <9604161201.D0306lv@slvbbs.com> Fred and all, > Dolores, > > You adopt a pose of evil... > > The point? > > Simply to destroy? > > I expect so...and you will probably succeed; but the rest of us, > especially the list-owner much cooperate. You got a couple of swift short ones for that Fred – but I am not sure that I really get what you are saying. Do you really think that Dolores posts are capable of such power? And do you think the rest of us – especially me collude? Do I have that right? Could you say more! Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:55:59 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Brevity In-Reply-To: <199604182146.WAA04041@deputy.pavilion.co.uk> Hi marcus, > I switched on to receive 326 e-mails from this list - which shows how > frequently I log on and am finally moved to post a message, having lurked > for some good long time. I would read all that was posted but there were so > many words, so much thinking and theorising going on. I couldn't find the > heart of it. Does your mail reader have a thread option? You might like to follow one of the two only. One reason I encourage people to attend to the subject line. > I would like to know how may people are on the list. Do you give out that > kind of information Walter ? It is public information: send a command to the listserv (see the sig added to these emails) with REVIEW PSYBER-L in the text – you will get their names and email addresses. It is about 110 i think, there having been about 30 or so leave and 15 join in the last 2 weeks. (these stats are vague) In the last two days however 6 joined -- welcome -- and only 3 left. >Yours briefly, Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 00:05:45 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: PSYBER: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.. Every day I receive a "Quote of the Day" through an email distribution list. Among today's gems: "I am a part of all that I have met." John Milton And then through all the wonderful essence flowing here, I can bring an obvious reversal to bear: "All that I have met is a part of me." *** thanks, Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:48:02 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Tama.Neill" Subject: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning Hello Something is running riot through me after reading Lisa's breath taking message.I'm amazed, refreshed and revitalised.The clarity of thought, feeling and exspression contained in that post was spectacular.I Love it. I was feeling slightly challenged and still, the load is a bit lighter & freeer now.I have to break through at the moment, I feel held back by my situations that I create, putting things off then doing them at the last minute, panicking, stressing .Just about coping, something else for lazy or inadequecy.But I gotta do it hand it in or I will be giving up, I will feel like I'm letting myself down, I did that to many times last year at University, dropping papers & essays.I will get it done and hand my english essay in. Thanks for that, just letting of some steam, & encouraging my self. shall we dance? I would be honored and intrigued to dance with such a wondrous person as your self. Lead on, in your Dance of life!! _____________________ *TAMA JAMEY NEILL* 19 Haywood st, Mornington Dunedin, New Zealand *P:(03)4554627* *E-MAIL address:-* *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz* ____________________________ Custom-Sized Screen Realities: TURN ON TUNE IN BOOT UP "To be is to do" -Socrates "To do is to be" -Sartre "Do be do be do" -Sinatra Just say "Know" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 01:44:35 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: XMeff@AOL.COM Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning Robert, You said: RdeC> It is strange how life leads us down certain paths at special times. RdeC>When I read the following contribution by John (XMEFF), I again became RdeC>convinced that there is no such thing as coincidence. You say there is no such thing as mere coincidence (ie, meaningless connections)? RdeC>>> . . . I appreciate the <> that you paint as coming from a RdeC>>deep place. XM>>. . . a deep place? I would think of it as the mixing bowl. table, krater, stone . . . RdeC> I find myself needing to echo you. Music is not just the RdeC>mathematical value of soundwaves. Music is dependant upon the receptor as RdeC>much as the transmitter. Music is more than the notes. Music defies being RdeC>defined. How are we then able to make distinctions? What is music to one RdeC>human is noise to another, is silence to yet another; yet the sense of music RdeC>is understood without being taught, without being intellectualized. I find that what is so amazing is not that there is music but that there is a listener. The universe sings to itself and comprehends. In the sense you speak of here, there is a transcendent quality, something that goes beyond the mere senses. RdeC> I have rambled on again. I wonder if these rambling have any value RdeC>to the group? By this, I would think you mean that we (this discussion) are headed nowhere. I find that a random walk can be more rewarding at times than a straight walk to a predetermined destination. RdeC> . . . . . . . . . . I have this habit of spinning webs from bits of incandescent RdeC>light. Ah, . . . another link in the chain. What is cosmos but bodies of light separated by mostly empty space? The light is the truth just as sure as our bodies are made from carbon forged in the solar furnaces. What have you finally decided? Valuable or valueless? Adios, amigo John _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:48:03 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: e-mail comm expressivity (was: Re: Language and communities) Wilbur, Barbara, thanks to both of you for contributing to a body of knowledge badly needed for developing a theory of e-mail comm behavior. I may resume: 1. Wilbur - enticed by the first few lines of some remark on list silence - did *very* well in handling a number of topics: Facial feedback is for most people essential to immediacy in comm (and, often, even life!) Full-blossomed emotive expression requires mastery of written language at one's fingertips beyond mere writer's brilliance. Most of this ability may be self- taught "by doing it" in relentless repetition of trying to improve... His experiences in language immersion struck a chord vital to me - I grew up with a background in written English and did reports as well as some poetry in both German and English (indeed, I mourned the death of my first partner in Eng- lish poems). But it was e-mail that furnished language immersion to me - I'm hard-hearing and thus lack expectation pattern of spoken languages I'm fluent in writing. 2. Barbara joined the thread sharing experiences of being freed from FtF baggage *impeding* direct comm when she resorted to e-mailing. She stresses - non-interruption (forcing the "listener" to deal with the *whole* msg - in- stead of being tied up by associations caused by unintended *partial* msgs from the beginning act of speech); - absence of non-verbal "anti"-msgs (causing unsureness,mistrust,if not double- bind); - freedom of info sharing, resulting in a degree of understanding each other hitherto unachievable. Thank you both for showing *both* sides of the coin... If there'll be more msgs to this thread, I offer to post regular resumes on a 2-days basis or so. Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 22:27:51 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: e-mail comm expressivity In-Reply-To: <9604190948.AA01405@sussun1.ffm.fgan.de> Mila, Thank you for the initiatives. Dan's post about the decision to continue the training in email was fascinating on the same theme, there was a preference for the written word even when they were all in the same room! Perhaps one of the attractions is that in email we can all speak at once, and yet not be interrupted, as Barbara said. > Thank you both for showing *both* sides of the coin... > > If there'll be more msgs to this thread, I offer to post regular resumes on a > 2-days basis or so. I think this is a great offer – one I have not seen in a list before! So while we learn about the substantive content of this thread we can have the extra pleasure of seeing how this can work. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:15:14 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: PSYBER: Language and communities Robert, your wonderful alter-ego has a fur like the deep black silk found in precious Japanese kimonos I'm so fond of. When a sunlight ray cozies on some of his hairs they turn coffee-brown in transluminescence. As a king, he boldly inspects all of his Kingdom every day - even our secret room, where we usually don't admit cats because they tend to hide there unreachable and to force their nocturnal life-cycle upon us mere workers needing our sleep... Don't ask me about more details about the plot that'll set you acting as King of The Extremes. As you'll remember from the intervention I tried with Marah, this story rests in my quiver until I see reason to throw it on list, where it will unfold into a bouquet of exotic flowers charming the strange smell of ambivalen- ce. Oui, oui, les fleurs d'ambivalence, - mais je n'ai pas lu l'oeuvre de Rim- baud, helas. Have nice dreams, my sleeping Majesty. Mila, deesse des rois _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 06:15:34 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: Sharmila Pixy Ferris Sharmila, Welcome to the company of non-lurkers. >I have been reading with interest the discussion on the nature of >language, characteristics of cybercommunication and enjoying the poetry >in this group over the past month. As a sometime poet, I too have enjoyed the offerings. I do hope that they serve as more than decoration and distraction to the _list_. They are, after all, investigations into the on-line psyche, investigation of on-line relationship. >A topic I did not see mentioned was that of culture. >The issue of the unique culture of cyberspace is a really interesting one >that seems to be well within the purview of this listserv. Exactly! I am surprised of the synchronocity here. My last post (PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning) touched upon that very theme. IMHO, there is no real understanding of the psychology of a list/listserv without understanding its anthropology. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:39:52 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning In-Reply-To: Tama, How exciting to hear from someone from Dunedin! My husband and I traveled to New Zealand a year ago, and he used to live in Dunedin (I think). We didn't get that far on the South Island, but we toured the North Island in a campervan for one week, then the South Island as far as Christchurch and Hokitika. We live in Colorado. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:01:03 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Fred Bauder Organization: SLV BBS Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast Walter, Did Dolores adopt a post of evil by evoking the Beast; what is the Beast Number 666? Fred _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:42:26 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Pixy Ferris Subject: Psychodrama In-Reply-To: <3177900f.4710269@vesta.chch.planet.co.nz> > Steven: > > Over the past year, I have been become convinced that online interactions in > > cyberspace can be looked at as a powerful form of psychodrama. I'm > > primarily talking here of online conversations using Mirc type > > software...email, of course, is a slower version of this type of > > communication, so I suspect that we're talking about a continuum...letter > > writing ===> email ===> online interactive "chats". > X In general, the word > Walter > Good to see a few psychodramatists here, or are you using the term in > a more generic sense? What is Mirc? An issue I too would like to see illuminated. A rhetorical viewpoint offers another perspective -- that of the Burkean dramatistic view. Or, on a more prosaice level (but one which I have been invetsigating recently) , the "word" on-line that Stven talks about mirrors the psychodrama of our everyday lives, but the nature of the medium (a print version of oral interactions) gives it a particularly piquant flavour. > Walter: > On the continuum of media you mention: _time_ is one factor that > changes in each of these media hence different aspects of the psyche > are illuminated What do you think? Much has been written in teh annals of CMC on how cybertalk abolishes barriers of time and space. You raise an interesting point about the effects of time on the individual (&/or collective?) psyche. I'd like to hear more about your feelings on this. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:47:44 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Pixy Ferris Subject: Re: e-mail comm expressivity >Mila > If there'll be more msgs to this thread, I offer to post regular resumes on a > 2-days basis or so. >Walter >I think this is a great offer one I have not seen in a list before! >So while we learn about the substantive content of this thread we can >have the extra pleasure of seeing how this can work. I'd like to add my endorsement, and say in addition that this list offers a graet many "extras". Walter, you do a graet job as moderator, thank you! _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:57:25 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Pixy Ferris Subject: Re: PSYBER: Sharmila Pixy Ferris In-Reply-To: On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Robert de Cyberie wrote: > Sharmila, > > Welcome to the company of non-lurkers. Thanks Robert. Your notes of welcome to the new list members (and I think I've seen four from you this week) do a lot to establish a positive climate on this list. BTW, a minor point, but I generally go by 'Pixy' > >A topic I did not see mentioned was that of culture. > >The issue of the unique culture of cyberspace is a really interesting one > >that seems to be well within the purview of this listserv. > > Exactly! I am surprised of the synchronocity here. My last post > (PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning) touched upon that very theme. IMHO, there > is no real understanding of the psychology of a list/listserv without > understanding its anthropology. I couldn't agree more. One problem here is that a good anthropologist must immerse him/herself in the culture, but problems of time and other commitments often prevent that in a cyberculture such as this one. Another problem is the relative youth of the medium. The culture is growing and developing, so studying it from within is like a fish studying water --soemthing that McLuhan says can't be done effectively _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:00:08 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast At 12:01 PM 4/19/96 EST, you wrote: >Walter, > >Did Dolores adopt a post of evil by evoking the Beast; No, I nominated her for the spot, since I didn't want to be identified as the "Beast". I figured with the "this isn't about the psychology of listserv's" messages that I was posting, (rather incendiary), there was a pretty good chance that I would be cast in the role of scapegoat.. Not wanting to be the lamb for the slaughter, I playfully suggested that the Delores should be cast in the role of "Devil" so that I could avoid the role of scapegoat. Delores responded in turn with her return from the pits of hell in order to make the sacrifice.. baaaahhhh... baaaahhh.. (<--- That's supposed to be the sound of a scapegoat running away..) So no, Delores isn't a Devil, she just plays one in Siberia. (Am I the only one that got that?) (Boy to I love double entondra's (but I don't know how to spell it)) Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:28:34 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960419200008.00ccc290@monmouth.com> Wilbur, I think it's entendre. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 17:37:37 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast At 03:28 PM 4/19/96 -0600, you wrote: >Wilbur, >I think it's entendre. I think that you're right.. >Barbara > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 10:20:08 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960419200008.00ccc290@monmouth.com> Wilbur (& Fred, Dolores and all), > So no, Delores isn't a Devil, she just plays one in Siberia. (Am I the only > one that got that?) (Boy to I love double entondra's (but I don't know how > to spell it)) I got that. I am glad you have summarised it so clearly. And what I also get is that Fred is perturbed by that, perhaps even cautious to really come out & say that for fear of being flamed. (another double one of those entedre) Oh boy! What a situation. What is a "play" and what is not? Gregory Bateson did some work on that theme. I can’t remember what he said exactly but this is what it left me with: He watched monkeys fight and also play fight. In a play fight there are certain things that make it clear that this is play. A nip denotes a bite, but is not a bite. Pixie has just named on of our threads here Psychodrama –a wonderful discussion to have in tandem with this one. In a psychodrama this is explicit. One is on the stage or off it. The devil on the stage evokes the responses on the stage. That is not a pretence – rather a revelation of the psyche – Moreno called it the "theatre of truth" – a truth that we often could not safely reveal off stage. It is important to know the difference between these levels of play. If I say "Boo" to a child in a game of peek-a-boo and they laugh, then I can maximise the play. But if they get a fright and cry and get it wrong – I step out of that role and let them see who I am. It can be more tricky too: what if they "play" scared? Right now, at this moment, I have a sense of being in a space that is very flexible – no clear audience or stage delineation, the more dramatic roles merge with the more social ones. Robert is something of Bob, and also Sir Robert – his majesty. Wilbur and I are here doing some clarifying, being facilitative, in roles we might take up more playfully or dramatically at other times. I trust others can tune into each others vulnerability, sort out the complexities of the _levels of play_, just as those characters in one of Woody Allen’s films need to do when they walk off the screen (even as we watch them on the screen!) I trust that we can create a climate where if there is pain there is also nurturing. Enough, How are you with this Fred? And how are you Laurel-who-can-choose-to be-who-she-likes-here-Dolores? Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 23:41:20 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast Dear Fred, Actually you got it right. I am in fact the leader of the coven currently involved in sordid satanical practice at the end of my garden with the rest of the faeries. We are having a BBQ and bake out at the end of the month to which you are cordially invited. Please bring a bottle. We wont be raising The Horned one, sacrificing goats, (Wilbur you live to baaah till another full moon) chickens, babies or cats, or dancing naked round the dog cack on this particular occasion (sorry to disappoint you) My legions of darkness will instead be thinking up new ways to permeate the list with our own peculiar brand of evil. After the noshfest we will of course be impregnating virgins in the hopes of concieving the anti-christ 9 months down the line, if that fails to amuse us then we have a few christians/list members (actually only one I can think of, now who do you think that might be Fred?) lined up to maim, scarify, torment, torture and otherwise convert to the unrighteous path. All good clean fun and rarely messy if you can find the right rubber sheeting. Dolores.. Mephistopheles@inferno.co.abyss P.S Fred Can a reccomend a toke on a good joint. It'll do wonders for your sense of perception. You might actually find you have a sense of humour. Walter your email came in as I was just about to post this. Freds unwarrented Hydrophy comment, I sort of let pass.. even the first 666 comment..but now he is starting to get up my nasal cavities in a big way. Its very boring playing wargames when you have polaris missiles and your opponant seems only to be armed with a rubberband. Unless he starts making suitable defences for his statements and petty little asides, I will let him play with his rubber bands by himself.. He doesnt bother backing up any of his statements or explaining himself further. Im getting quite bored. *Yawn* Come on Fred...give me your best shot. You seem to want to annoy me...at least do it properly. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 00:25:23 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever.. Assorted ramblings..by the slightly squiffy and not in a very good mood. Probably makes no sense.. what the hell. It'll give Fred something to stick his crucifix into. I have been fortunate/very lucky in that I have had a very intense cyber relationship, which taught me an awful lot about myself, and about the way my life was evolving.. My time in cyberspace has also destroyed my marriage and at the end of the day, when I look back I dont want to think that I came out of this with nothing. Theres a saying that everything has a price. I hope the price I paid is ultimatly worth it. The price I paid is to have lost love and trust and to have hurt somebody that I ultimatly cared a great deal about. What I got in return, was to know myself and my potential a little better..and to learn to share and to love. By the time however, that process was near completion, my partner had learnt not to care, either about me or what it was I was up to here. The price the net extracts is your dissasociation from reality. You lose your sense of responsibility, of consequence and of your real life commitments. An irc in- depth relationship, causes you to lie. It makes you decieve and it makes you cling to an illusion that may or may not exist. It is the ability to mindshare on here that is potentially the most attractive and the most dangerous aspect of electronic relationships. It seduces until you can see nothing beyond what you think you have found. It extracts time so that you lose all sense of it. You begin to be disatisfied with what you have. Your beguiled by the idea that you have found somebody who understands you and you begin to lose focus about what your real priorities should be. I disagree with the term bandied about by certain members of the press, particularly a daily paper in England called the Sun, which is a bit like a daily version of the National Enquirer but with more topless women - that cyberspace is not a reality. Its merely a place for the lonely and the sad, and those members of society who cannot find a niche anywhere else. They ridicule cyberspace as a place for the socially inept. The computer geek, those outside society, the shy the lonely, the confused. The truth is that cyberspace is a reality.. you cant say that what you do here doesnt matter. Is a cyber affair equatable with a real life affair? My husband thought so, and his objection was that I shared myself in a way I didnt in my non electronic life. I dont think that that level of sharing is possible in real life. You can let somebody in to places even you dont know exist in your mind. Its not Reality I believed. That was my mistake. Its very real. Its real people..its real thoughts, real emotions..real love and in the end real pain. It isnt restricted And you pay. Change creeps up on you and when you look around your not the same person you were when you first typed X amount of months ago. It took me ages to come to terms with the fact, that I loved somebody I had never *spoken* to, never seen, never touched. When all these things are taken into consideration..how could I possibly love what in effect are only words on a screen. The thing is that the words were a truth, the words are that person. I fell in love and I didnt even know it was happening, until my husband pointed it out to me. Until then I had suspected it was an illusion, a fantasy, my fantasy, my illusion. Not hurting anybody or so it seemed. The most obvious instant attractor in real life is our physical aspect. Here that is not a factor. It is the mind that either attracts or repells. A way of thought or expression that singles out somebodys attention. Body language is non-existant here, but we find ways to compensate for that, the way a sentence is structured, the way the content changes, the mood it conveys as I read it.. the picking up of these signals, In cyberspace the written word is now an alternative to the body language. (And we dont get body language right all the time either.) When I talk to somebody I know well in cyberspace.. I can tell what sort of mood he is in by the way he structures the text..how a short a sentence is, how brief a reply, the kind of language he uses. The physical is obviously not much in evidence unless your abusing your anatomy while sat in front of a monitor engaging with somebody of like mind and the same ability to type with one hand, on a channel which specifically caters for your particular sexual tastes. (note again I am talking IRC) We substitute the physical, the lack of being able to touch somebodys body, with instead the ability to touch their minds, and to let them touch ours. Its a rare and precious thing, that can be felt here, to share yourself completely with another person. To enable a communion, so intense, so in harmony at times, a perfect dance of souls.. thats the beauty of cyberspace and it is also its greatest danger. I think I'll go work out my biorhythms for the next 6 months in the hope there might be some radical improvement in the shape of things to come. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 19:34:45 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Siberia.. brrrr... When I was a kid, I remember that if I screwed up there was the constant, "You'll get shipped off to Siberia". (That cold place in Russia, did I spell it right?) So here we are in Psyberia, playing in the snow, and I'm making a snowball! I roll it around on the ground to get it about a foot accross. Looking around, I spot, Vicki and Delores making a snow man. (complete with a fur jacket..) Should I? Will they ever talk to me again? I can't resist! Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 00:49:41 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Wilburrrrrrrrrrrrrrr At 19:34 19/04/96 -0400, you wrote: >When I was a kid, I remember that if I screwed up there was the constant, >"You'll get shipped off to Siberia". (That cold place in Russia, did I >spell it right?) Hmmm I was told that the monster that lurked in the closet also went by the name of Wilbur. My I would terrify my little sister into night frights with chants of "Wilburs going to get you!!" Should I? Will they ever talk to me again? Like you could resist it Wilbur.. Cant speak for Vikki but if you grovel to the best of your ability I might consider it. Dolores .. please spell it right. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 19:27:12 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: e-mail comm expressivity Hi all, I was just cleaning up my filing cabinet and found some interesting bits 'n' peices about Internet and CMC that may find a use in the discussion thread intiated by Mila. <> (Phillips, G.M., 1995. Luddites Lament). The late Dr. Phillips of IPCT-L fame (a great listserv while he was alive and an active participant) wrote frequently about the nature of communication on-line. I was struck by his reference to authors and actors, two important roles that we persue here on PSYBER-L. However, I wonder about the comment <>. Does not our work here at times let us step outside that very *ego* in our acting and authoring? Dr. Phillips also had the occasion to serve as an on-line counselor. He speaks of how the act of participating in _lists_ often invites disclosure. It appears that those who have the time to participate as a contributor to lists and take the time to respond and *in context* to the on-list and off-list messages, invite disclosure and become the *best friend* of these Internet world citizens. His rationale: <> (Phillips, 1994. Sigmund Freud on the Internet). He continues: <<... herein lies the power and danger of Email communication. You can find people to listen. What you cannot be sure of, however, is how your confidences will be treated.>> Phillips (July, 1994. On Interpersonal Relationships and Email), sees this Internet domaine as a *new culture*, a domaine where those who post create an image of themselves that is <> and that they are <> This on-line world is described as a *social* dimension in which words form the attraction and draw attention. How does his description fit with what we are discovering about the psychology of a listserv? the nature of drama? the role of poetry and prose? disclosure (both on-list and off-list)? Maybe some of this is useful, maybe not. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 21:52:29 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Marah Rosenberg~203-748-8835" Subject: my apologies In-Reply-To: <960412165937_101632.3701_JHF137-1@CompuServe.COM> I wanted to let everyone here know that I have not forgotten or intentionally ignored you. My appologies if it semed that way. In an attempt to install MS office on this mac I use, I completely botched the mac. (or should I say that MSoffice did...) So I have been in the process of rebuilding this hunk of silicon. This is very frustrating because I lost a lot of information (like the initial reponses to my posts) and I would still like to respond. If you have these in a sent-mail directory could you please privately resend to : c1rcle@concentric.net. thank you. I am glad to see that there is a lot of interesting discussion on this list. I would like to start another. My first computer was the apple 2 series in the early 80's (pre mac/lisa) I have always used tunnel interfaces. moving from apple2's to 8088's, (xt's) DOS, etc. I used windows, and got used to guis. (graphical user interface) then, I discovered the rich world of unix(AIX to be precice). for reasons beyond my control righ now i am using a powermac 7200. I can't swing it. I feel in many ways very frustrated, because I know that This is supposed to be more user friendly, but apparently not for me. I thought aix and dos were harder than macos, but from the last 1-2wks I've seen how wrong i am, and how much I admire the skill to think in terms of objects(icons)... this much I know about interface: there is a PRODUCTIVE INTERFACE where the participant feels productive, like they are doing work, etc. Most people seem to refer to this as a TUNNEL INTERFACE because it is harder to operate in unix/dos than windows/macintosh/95 or os2 ; and the line by line quality of unix/dos gives the impression of sending commands down itno a black tunnel/void/box and getting a response. it is very very flat. (visually) A PLAYFUL INTERFACE is where the participant feels less like they are actually doing work. please understand that i mean not that one is not working on a win/mac etc, but just that little things like moving files, bolding, deleting, are not that hard to do. AIX rm -i filename to delete 95 drag to recycle bin or press delete macos trash can win3* press delete there is also the argument that drag and drop is "work", however, this refers more to how one feels when using a certain interface. ==== I like my unix. and feel uncomfortable in other enviroments. almost as if the gui interface assumes I'm an idiot. and therefore spoonfeeds me everything i know that other people can argue that the gui interface assumes that I'm brilliant, so it cuts away tedious tasks so you can create a masterpiece..... part of it may be my adamant stand that technology is not transparent, nor will it be any time soon.(my recent experience with macos, past experiences with 95 and windows tell me so.. the technology is only as smart as the end user - but people might forget that) - guis feed an ignorance about the computer, inspire technology to be seen as black boxish and possibly even magical (msft wizards in office). I feel that this is a dangerous thing. comments , please I want to discuss _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 21:18:28 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: PSYBER: Sharmila Pixy Ferris Pixy, Continuing the *culture* thread: RdeC>> IMHO, there is no real understanding of the psychology of RdeC>> list/listserv without understanding its anthropology. > PF>I couldn't agree more. One problem here is that a good anthropologist PF>must immerse him/herself in the culture, but problems of time and other PF>commitments often prevent that in a cyberculture such as this one. PF>Another problem is the relative youth of the medium. The culture is PF>growing and developing, so studying it from within is like a fish PF>studying water --soemthing that McLuhan says can't be done effectively I wonder about that?!? I seem to remember that Pirsig's book took issue with the classical approaches to anthropology because of that particular notion that one can't understand a culture unless you look at it objectively from the outside. I think that if one was to try to study this CMC culture from the oustside we'd get a good picture of its surface, a picture that has little to do with the blood and guts under its skin. For example, with Laurel's story (language, relationships), much is learned about the nature of relation within this environment. Nothing theoretical or academic -- its raw truth as perceived by a real Psyberian. Steven Hoath's *Rover* tale does the same for us. True tales from the underground/psybergrounds. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 21:18:43 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever.. Dearest Laurel and other coven leaders, I hope that my venturing to reply to you while you're in a slightly nasty mood will allow me to escape unscathed. The only crucifix that I have in the house is made with burnt matchsticks (I wonder what this symbolizes -- Walter? anyone?). Perhaps a little latin will serve as a ward. More seriously, I was touched and honoured to be allowed to share in you disclosure as you give evidence of the *reality* of Cyberia. I'll follow your lead and add to the evidence. >I have been fortunate/very lucky in that I have had a very intense cyber >relationship, which taught me an awful lot about myself, and about the way >my life was evolving.. I've found that the dialogues on various listservs have acted as magnets, like a black hole, I've been drawn into the vortex that leads not to a non-place and time, but to this land of pure thought born of real people. This land has shown me that I have a voice that others enjoy. My voice has attracted other voices. Together, in our shared dialogues, we sang and cruised the seas of cyberspace. In the process, I discovered myself in the mirrors of others, various faces of my *self*. I, too, fell in love. and hate. and friendship. and loneliness. I felt all those emotions that my corporal form thought only to exist on this side of my screen. My physical self was wrong. Life on the other side of the screen is real. >My time in cyberspace has also destroyed my marriage and at the end >of the day, when I look back I dont want to think that I came >out of this with nothing. Fortunately, though badly cracked from 25 years of marital static, my marriage still holds together. Internet was not a threat. I am the threat to my marriage's continued existence. The time I invested (and to a lesser degree still invest) in my journeys through Cyberia would have been invested in other avenues of distancing. What matter the path that we wander in our search, it is the search itself that draws us on, the need for discovery, the need for filling in the black holes of our psyche. >It is the ability to mindshare on here that is potentially the most >attractive and the most dangerous aspect of electronic relationships. It >seduces until you can see nothing beyond what you think you have found. It >extracts time so that you lose all sense of it. You begin to be >disatisfied with what you have. Your beguiled by the idea that you have >found somebody who understands you and you begin to lose focus about what >your real priorities should be. The mindsharing--soulmating! I see life in a different era, bohemian (Rilke), a time of dangerous liasons, a mocking of convention. Do we do much the same here? Reality, responsibility, morality. Climbing the peaks with Zarathustra, laying with Lou Salome, riding a motorbike with Pirsig, Riding the Tiger -- all earth-bound experiences of the mind as I read. Singing with a cybermate, dancing with a cyberchorus, arguing with a cyberdisciple, comforting cyberhurt -- cyberia-bound experiences of the mind/soul (how do I convey that there is more than mind at work here?). This to is reality to those who wander among these formless shores. >The truth is that cyberspace is a reality.. you cant say that what you do >here doesnt matter. Is a cyber affair equatable with a real life affair? >My husband thought so, and his objection was that I shared myself in a >way I didnt in my non electronic life. I dont think that this level of >sharing is possible in real life. You can let somebody in to places even >you dont know exist in your mind. There! Did you catch that? Take note of these words as you prepare for the play of psychodrama. To what depths will one travel? What mysteries of our psyche be uncovered? >Its not Reality I believed. That was my mistake. Its very real. Its real >people..its real thoughts, real emotions..real love and in the end real >pain. Laurel, yes, it's real. Real losses, real gains, real change. >The thing is that the words were a truth, the words are that person. I fell in love and I didnt even know it was happening, until my husband pointed it out to me. Until then I had suspected it was an illusion, a fantasy, my fantasy, my illusion. Not hurting anybody or so it seemed >The most obvious instant attractor in real life is our physical aspect. >Here that is not a factor. It is the mind that either attracts or repells. >A way of thought or expression that singles out somebody's attention. Body >language is non-existant here, but we find ways to compensate for that, >the way a sentence is structured, the way the content changes, the mood it >conveys as I read it.. the picking up of these signals, In cyberspace the >written word is now an alternative to the body language. (And we dont get >body language right all the time either.) Mila, these words need to find a home in the thread you are guarding for us. Pixy, fell the ambience of culture. >When I talk to somebody I know well in cyberspace.. I can tell what sort >of mood he is in by the way he structures the text..how a short a sentence >is, how brief a reply, the kind of language he uses. And dare I still talk with you in poetic terms? I feel stripped of artifice under your eyes. Is this why so many lurk? the fear of being stripped naked? the fear of learning the truth about oneself? >We substitute the physical, the lack of being able to touch somebody's >body, with instead the ability to touch their minds, and to let them touch >ours. Its a rare and precious thing, that can be felt here, to share >yourself completely with another person. To enable a communion, so >intense, so in harmony at times, a perfect dance of souls.. that's the >beauty of cyberspace and it is also its greatest danger. There is a Fench word that captures some of this: <> a blossoming; a coming out; an opening up. These moments where we transcend as we touch another in Cyberia. I'd like to offer this little song to all those who have need, those who have loved and lost here in Cyberie. This is for my soulmates (gender is not an issue: note that in French, the word *soulmate* is represented with the term <> and applies to both male and female spirits that are entwined as soulmates) La berceuse - the lullaby ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Je veux te bercer dans mes bras, te soulager en offrant mon coeur a le tien un coeur legerement deguenille par des annees perdues. I want to cradle you in my arms to comfort you offering my heart to yours a heart lightly tattered by years long past and lost. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:20:52 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: PSYBER: e-mail comm expressivity In-Reply-To: Robert, > < previous writings that the Internet is an arena for unpublished authors and > actors with no audience.>> (Phillips, G.M., 1995. Luddites Lament). > > The late Dr. Phillips of IPCT-L fame (a great listserv while he was > alive and an active participant) wrote frequently about the nature of > communication on-line. I was struck by his reference to authors and actors, > two important roles that we persue here on PSYBER-L. However, I wonder > about the comment <>. > Does not our work here at times > let us step outside that very *ego* in our acting and authoring? Ego: archetype in its own right no it is the enemy of archetype That is role. It is animus and should link up with the anima for the higher marriage. Strengthen it No, drop it! Make it more conscious! The ego _should_ be in control of all the multiple personalities, the CEO. No! subordinate it to the real self. No that is not ego that is ID. No, that is an expression of vulnerability covered up by bravado No it is the parent of his inner child . . . which is really the super ego . . . Just a summary of future discussions on ego . . . :-) Where can we see Dr Phillips writings? > Maybe some of this is useful, maybe not. What do you think? Perhaps his writings are classics. I would like to see a list of URLs to classic texts related to the work here. I started making it once – one of those shelved projects – perhaps we could post references to the classics and web them somewhere. BTW -- Dolores your last post must be a classic already! Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:39:29 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever.. In-Reply-To: Robert, > La berceuse - the lullaby > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Je veux te bercer dans mes bras, > te soulager > en offrant mon coeur a le tien > un coeur legerement deguenille > par des annees perdues. > > I want to cradle you in my arms > to comfort you > offering my heart to yours > a heart lightly tattered > by years long past and lost. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Robert de Cyberie I like being here as you say that . . . walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:16:32 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever.. In-Reply-To: <199604192325.AAA10031@easynet.co.uk> > Assorted ramblings..by the slightly squiffy and not in a very good mood. > Probably makes no sense.. what the hell. It'll give Fred something to stick > his crucifix into. I laughed! And felt moved by your words here . . . great that you bring them. > The price the net extracts is your dissasociation from reality. This line got me. I’ll ramble back . . . It is the hardest thing for me to live my two lives. I have a very busy practice -- one i value -- and enjoy, and am still building. Kate (partner) & Rebecka (daughter) & Brook (friend) live in our large old house -- I am not fully available to the many people here -- this world does not really interest them. Kate listens to me about it -- from the outside. We are in the midst of major bathroom renovations. I love movies, books, rock climbing, skiing . . . This is all a bit much! I could be here full time & it would do me no good. At present i manage it, just -- I need little sleep. i have not got into irc because I can work with the time structure email provides -- half an email between clients, take the laptop to dinner for a quiet read. I feel motivated. I believe in this Psybernet project -- I think it is important. I am intent on building and writing more in cyberspace. I do not want one life to wreck the other -- that is a danger. My relationship with Kate seems to survive my absence. The closer we get to people who are a long way away, the further we are from those who are physically near by. (did I see that in Wired?) What a bummer. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:54:15 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Language, relationships and sex In-Reply-To: <3179136f.66611603@vesta.chch.planet.co.nz> Replying to my own post! > This is all a bit much! I could be here full time & it would do me no > good. At present i manage it, just -- I need little sleep. i have > not got into irc because I can work with the time structure email > provides -- half an email between clients, take the laptop to dinner > for a quiet read. And what is probably glaringly obvious -- is that I have feelings about the sexual aspects of irc. I am resistant to sexuality on the net . . . I am perhaps vulnerable to its dangers? I dont _want_ to explore it . . . and as i said ages ago -- what about experiential learning then? How can i know about cs if i do not go into one of its most powerful realms? Heels dig in . . . Maybe look at: http://web2.airmail.net/walraven/romance.htm ? w _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 12:06:08 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Netsex..etc etc etc Dear All, specifically Walter in this case, I truly believe that you cannot understand the psychology of cyber space and its users fully until you have experienced first hand just how important sex is on the web/email/newsgroups/lists. This is dangerous obviously. There are broadly speaking two different types of netsexing experience to be found here, much as in real life. That is types of sexual experience and experimentation that can be done with emotion and that which is done without. Both types can be equally as dangerous. The first are random encounters on the many channels catering for any taste. These range from the strange but fun, to channels that would not be condoned openly in society. I am talking about #kiddysex #familysex #rapesex #dogsex #beastsex (#denotes channel on irc) Actually #rapesex is an interesting example like so many channels of this type, it is visited by equally as many women as men. This is important when looking at how much the net allows us to play out fantasys..and when it is something more serious. Personally speaking I came to the net with a lot of preconcieved notions and predjudices. I have learnt that Lesbians and gay people are reallly no different to the rest of us - that religion and spirituality are two entirely different things. I shed predjudices, I shed intolerances. I shed preconceptions. Something that through ignorance I had never even bothered to concern myself with before. I have also learnt that there is nothing two consenting adults should not do providing they are not harming themselves or others. My perspective on sex has changed considerably. As an ex Catholic two of the things I did too well were guilt and shame. The anarchic nature of the net, is also its greatest danger to itself. I can forsee a time where people are making the comparisons between video nasties on our psyches and net nasties. However the recent censorship in America was blatently wrong in its attempt to control something that the politicians and moral majority could possibly understand. To them it was only a political tool. Netsex is beneficial because it requires complete openness. It has by its very nature to be graphic in content. Good netsex has to be imaginative, playfull, open and honest. Bad netsex is just typing a few staid and well repeated phrases, most often prevelant in bad porn flicks. Here age shows, and its interesting to note that the younger the person, the more likely it is to be a means to a rather messy end. There is no quality to the text, theres no emotional investment. There are people who are addicted to this, wandering the irc endlessly, in search of fullfillment of some kind of or another. They dont seek any closer relationship, and it is the sort of netsex commonly refered to by the tabloid papers. I believe the artist formerly known as Prince is heavily into this type of netsex.. On the other hand, I think it helps to understand what people require in real life sexual experiences. I think it has a ripple effect into real life relationships both good and bad. As a sexual testing ground I think for the very young the irc can provide indicators as to where their sexuality, preferences, etc can be found. With the slightly more screwed up, I think its a way to work through any problems, because you have to be graphic you cannot hide behind a mask of sexual hangups. It forces problems to the surface for you to look at and examine and work through. The psychological benefits of netsexing are completely ignored. Why I believe this is very much Jungs medium is that the exploration of our dark sides is possible here in a way not so easily available in real life. I hate the term real life. Because Cyberspace is very much a reality.. a parralell existance. ( I wish somebody would invent spellcheck for Eudora) I only roughly understand the terms animus and anima. I'd be interested if somebody would like to explain. This is something that netsex also brings to the fore. If they are our soul images manifest or projected in dreams myths and fantasys, what better place to find or explore them than on the net. But as I said Im not entirely sure yet what Jung really meant. I only have "Jung for begginers" and its not exactly detailed. Netlove is an entirely different thing. Netsex then becomes, an evolved state of conciousness where you are bonding and expressing emotion through the medium. This might sound rather melodramatic but the level of connection between two people that know each other so well that they are willing to explore their deepest fantasys, share themselves with each other, and be completely willing to explore themselves together is a very intense experience. It is a bonding experience and it draws you closer to them. To call it netsex is to belittle it. It is entirely different. I suppose the drawback to this is that ultimatly you want more. You become dissatisfied with what real life is offering, and disatisfied because you cannot touch the person, hold them, see how they laugh, smile, what their eyes are really saying. So Walter.. tred carefully. I didnt realise I was compromising my real life until it had already been irretrievably compromised. Dolores I am as I delve deeper into cyberspace coming rapidly to the conclusion that I dont actually think the world is ready yet, that we as a species are not ready yet for this phenomenon. We are children in a candy store and the truth is we should be treading as carefully as if we were in a china shop. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 09:11:17 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: e-mail comm expressivity Walter, Dr. Phillip's writings: 1. On Interpersonal Relationships and Email. APEX, Asia-Pacific Exchange (Electronic) Journal, Vol. 1(1). July, 1994. [on-line] JamesS@UHunix.UHcc.Hawaii.edu (for info on retrieval of APEX-J) 2. Sigmund Freud on the Internet. APEX, 1(2). November, 1994. [on-line] JamesS@UHunix.UHcc.Hawaii.edu (for info on retrieval of APEX-J) 3. The Luddite's Lament. APEX. March, 1995. [on-line] JamesS@UHunix.UHcc.Hawaii.edu (for info on retrieval of APEX-J) 4. Speech 2001: A Projection of the Future. IPCT-J, Interpersonal Computing and Technology, 1(4). October, 1993. [on-line] listserv@guvm.georgetown.edu (get PHILLIPS IPCTV1N4) 5. Cutler, R. H. Distributed Presence and Community in Cyberspace. IPCT-J 3(2). April 1995. [on-line] listserv@guvm.georgetown.edu (get CUTLER IPCTV3N2) 6. Coombs, N. CMC: The medium and the Message. EJC, Electronic Journal of Communication, 3(2). [on-line] comserve@vm.its.rpi.edu (send Coombs V3N293) I hope that these addresses are still operable (problem with this environment). I do have hard copy versions as I didn't have the hard disk space for their storage before I bought this Pentium machine. Maybe others have their suggestions for reading (a list for each thread?) and would like to share their finds? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 09:11:27 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: PSYBER: Psychodrama (was 666 & the Beast) Walter, You ask: >Oh boy! What a situation. What is a "play" and what is not? My response: Play can be equated with an *active disassociation* with bieng an *active lurker*. If one follows the thread of these double <>, one gets the sense of being in an eighteenth century drawing room with a host of <> who circulate spreading their wit through aphorism and euphimism. *Play* is avoidance of immersion, a messy and uncomfortable contact with *reality* on-line or real-time. >In a psychodrama this is explicit. One is on the stage or off it. >The devil on the stage evokes the responses on the stage. That is not >a pretence =96 rather a revelation of the psyche =96 Moreno called it the >"theatre of truth" =96 a truth that we often could not safely reveal off >stage. Revelation through the theatre of truth via role playing (fantasy). Hmm-mmn, interesting logic. The saftey of fantasy in bed with the truth of disclosure. >Right now, at this moment, I have a sense of being in a space that is >very flexible =96 no clear audience or stage delineation, the more >dramatic roles merge with the more social ones. Robert is something >of Bob, and also Sir Robert =96 his majesty. Wilbur and I are here >doing some clarifying, being facilitative, in roles we might take up >more playfully or dramatically at other times. This *stage* is peopled with *people*. They are their own audience as they are engaged in dialogue. The lurkers exist only in that they may eventually join the dialgoue. Other than that, they are formless, voiceless, faceless, and without presence -- not an audience at all. As for my *role*, what you see is what you get even, in f2f. I use my real name, my real language, my real thoughts and my real emotion. I don't need to confuse myself with fantasy roles, I have enough to occupy my being as I wander through these dimensions (Cyberia and Realia): man, child, father, husband, friend, foe, teacher, student, counsellor, counselled, poet, philosopher, handyman, and sometimes lover/loved. Nobility comes from within and is evident in relations that value honour, spirit, soul, and= voice. My spirit grates as it hears the prattle that goes in the guise of *learned speech* and/or *small-talk*. The *posing* and *posturing* acts are instances of directing talk to oneself rather than to a *subject*. There is no conversation, no dialogue, no *communion of souls* (a *catholic* ideal -- notice the lower case "c"). I wonder if the approaches that take this domaine as theatre as *play* can truly approach the full potential of this domaine for discovery of the *self* through dialogue, the *self* of both speaker and listener as their roles constantly change? This would allow us to get yet a closer glimpse of the nature of the *beauty/beast* that we are. >I trust that we can create a climate where if there is pain there is >also nurturing. Create it? I doubt it! Be it? Yes, if we have the will. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% =20 %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %%=20 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:38:26 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Re: Dawn & songs of morning Hello, Psyberians! In this lost and lonely weekend, I arise in the silent dawn to touch the songs of morning.... Robert de Cyberie wrote: <> I offer the words of Henrik Ibsen, in <>: "But I'm coming to believe that all of us are ghosts.... It's not just what we inherit from our mothers and fathers. It's also the shadows of dead ideas and opinions and convictions. They're no longer alive, but they grip us all the same, and hold on to us against our will. All I have to do is open a newspaper to see ghosts hovering between the lines. They are haunting the whole country, those stubborn phantoms--so many of them, so thick, they're like an impenetrable dark mist. And here we are, all of us, so abjectly terrified of the light." Do we come here to hide? Or to find a light that illuminates the shadows in which we live? I cross the boundary of this ephemeral faerieland with a tremulous sense of anticipation and wonder. Here is a home for all the creatures that I am: the cerebral scholar in search of knowledge to feed my hungry mind; the white she-wolf who runs like quicksilver lightning through my blood, seeking passion and adventure; the impetuous gypsy who would dance with wild abandon under the stars; the empty soldier looking for a refuge from the war... the student, the philosopher, the poet, the wounded healer... the woman, the child.... The Spanish word "querencia" means a much-loved place--the place to which one returns for healing of the spirit. Is this not a definition of home? Is this not a definition of the glittering corriders of imaginal reality we create together here? Yes, Robert, <> Marie moonasylum@aol.com _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:38:28 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Intro - Marie Tondreau Hello, Psyberians! I have been lurking for several days, and thought it was time to walk out on stage with the rest of you. I am in the middle of a midlife career transition, after working in a commercial bank for nearly 9 years, mostly as an Investment Manager. I'm currently unemployed and working on a Master's Degree in Counseling Psychology (with a concentration in organizational development). Eventually, I want to teach (at the college level), to work with people who are trying to articulate their life patterns, and perhaps to consult in organizations. I have a strong interest in constructivism (how people make meaning), in narrative (how people communicate meaning), and in the transformative power of myth and metaphor. I believe that the world is in deep trouble on many levels (economic, ecological, ideological) and that we, the children of the earth, are at last beginning to face our responsibility as co-creators of the myriad realities that shape the quality of our lives. I believe that organizations - particularly those involved in business and education - play an important role both in contributing to dysfunction and in effecting change. My primary interest is in the well-being of the individual, but I wholeheartedly believe that the development of learning organizations (as depicted by Peter Senge in <>) is essential for the continued viability of organizations themselves. I have been online only for the past few months, but I have found an intellectual and a spiritual home here. I am excited by the possibilities for learning, and sharing, and personal expression. What a journey this will be! Take my hand, and walk with me.... Marie moonasylum@aol.com _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:58:01 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: my apologies At 09:52 PM 4/19/96 -0400, you wrote: >part of it may be my adamant stand that technology is not transparent, >nor will it be any time soon.(my recent experience with macos, past >experiences with 95 and windows tell me so.. the technology is only as >smart as the end user - but people might forget that) > The GUI is "In your face" if if you are a power user of the CLI, then you can create an interface where a single letter or word does everything that you want and need.. on the other hand, the GUI is almost always in your face, and you are REQUIRED to do the routine mundane tasks with the mouse (lots of eye hand coordination..) As for myself, I touch type, and don't like have to loose text clarity in order to waste screen space to icons, scroll bars, and the like. I like the monochome screen interface and like just having the text without any of the icon images in my face all the time. I believe that all of society will come to the point where they hate the Windows interface and how lonely it is. At least with CLI, you aren't required to spend much time looking at the screen and doing coordinated eye/hand operations. With the "tunnel" interface, you may not have something GUI to look at, but your imagination is free to run wild. Wilbur >- guis feed an ignorance about the computer, inspire technology to be >seen as black boxish and possibly even magical (msft wizards in office). >I feel that this is a dangerous thing. > >comments , please I want to discuss > >_______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 12:25:08 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Intro - Marie Tondreau Bonjour, Marie! It's so nice to hear a new voice, especially one that has seen fit to mention me in a post. Your first post blends well with the notions that I had hoped to communicate. >Hello, Psyberians! I have been lurking for several days, and thought it >was time to walk out on stage with the rest of you. The *stage* is large with not an over-abundance of *players*. The *play* is as of yet unwritten (it's to a co-production of the actors and actresses under the direction of ??? and Walter I presume). >I have a strong interest in constructivism (how people make meaning), in >narrative (how people communicate meaning), and in the transformative >power of myth and metaphor. You have indeed come to the right place if I have read right the vision that Walter has given us of this, his creation and god-child. Since there are so many new faces since I joined in late March, I will take the time to re-visit my own intro. I am a high school teacher, CMC researcher, sometimes counsellor, poet and philosopher in western Canada. I am a francophone from eastern Canada who thought to bridge the cultural/linguistic gap between the English and the French of this country (a losing battle). I am father to three: a girl of 21 who has recently married and is now expecting (I'll become PEPERE--GRANDPA in late July); a girl of 19 who is working and still "thinking" schooling and of becoming a teacher; and a son of 16 who is constantly falling in love, listening to music, playing hockey, and learning to voice his uniqueness and independence. I have very dark brown hair and am 5'7" tall with the typical dark complection of the French. In my younger days (I am now 46), I ran to keep myself sane and fit: Cross-country, 10K, 20K, and marathons. Today, I alternate between meditation, poetry, philosophy, and CMC dialogue as the means to fill in those cracks that would let shadow become too strong. I have developed heel spurs which now limit my running (as a result, I have gained unwanted weight and do not resemble the stereotypical image of a long-distance runner. What I am trying to do here, is to put some context to the signature that one sees when I am present. I am married. The lady is beautiful and a good mother. Our years together now number 4 months short of 25 years. I wonder if we will make it much further. Life is full of questions. In my youth I wandered at will across this land I call home with my guitar, backpack, and poetry. I was a roving bard with long hair, beard, and sandals--a flowerchild of the sixties. Now, my hair is short, my guitar sits unused in the basement, the beard disappeared four years ago, the poet went silent for nearly twenty years and has just been resurrected from the musty depths of two journals re-discovered in a box not too many years ago. This has been my mid-life crisis. >I have been online only for the past few months, but I have found an >intellectual and a spiritual home here. I am excited by the possibilities >for learning, and sharing, and personal expression. I hear here the echo that rinks out like a symphony. Could it be that we form a choir here that would rival the _Monks of Santo Domigo de Silos_? >What a journey this will be! Take my hand, and walk with me.... With pleasure, I extend my hand as I'm sure does all who now call this yet another one of their homes, a <>. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:54:44 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Netsex..etc etc etc Laurel, Walter and other Psyberians, >I truly believe that you cannot understand the psychology of cyber space >and its users fully until you have experienced first hand just how >important sex is on the web/email/newsgroups/lists. One cannot understand the nature of communication without awareness of the sexual nature of our converse. >My perspective on sex has changed considerably. As an ex Catholic >two of the things I did too well were guilt and shame. Some of us still are victim to the guilt and shame that the Catholic churc has gifted us with--still we grow and learn and dance in the fires. >Netsex is beneficial because it requires complete openness. It has by its >very nature to be graphic in content. Good netsex has to be imaginative, >playfull, open and honest. Bad netsex is just typing a few staid and well >repeated phrases, most often prevelant in bad porn flicks. Here age >shows, and its interesting to note that the younger the person, the more >likely it is to be a means to a rather messy end. There is no quality to >the text, theres no emotional investment. I knew growing older had some benefits :) >I think it helps to understand what people require in >real life sexual experiences. I think it has a ripple effect into real >life relationships both good and bad. Again, this mirrors real-time reality. Experimental contact, converse allow us to approach fully understanding our own sexual nature. >The psychological benefits of netsexing are completely ignored. >Why I believe this is very much Jung's medium is that the exploration of >our dark sides is possible here in a way not so easily available in real >life. I hate the term real life. Because Cyberspace is very much a >reality.. a parallel existance. Walter, what now? Do we take the dare to delve into this psychology of the listserv? Laurel, you are indeed right, this is reality -- one of its millions, billions of faces. >I suppose the drawback to this is that ultimatly you want more. You become >dissatisfied with what real life is offering, and disatisfied because you >cannot touch the person, hold them, see how they laugh, smile, what their >eyes are really saying. We are not our body, nor our mind: yet, we are both as well! We are spiritual beings, intellectual beings, social beings, and biological beings. Each of these is valid, but we are not defined by one or even their sum. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:55:42 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever.. Walter, >It is the hardest thing for me to live my two lives. I have a very >busy practice -- one i value -- and enjoy, and am still building. >Kate (partner) & Rebecka (daughter) & Brook (friend) live in our >large old house -- I am not fully available to the many people here -- >this world does not really interest them. Kate listens to me about it >-- from the outside. Reading your words, I see the the danger that you are facing here. There is fire here that sears one to the core, energy that can call forth changes that the author never asks for. Be careful, my friend. This ground is not a playground of make-believe. It is the testing ground of the psyche. >We are in the midst of major bathroom >renovations. I love movies, books, rock climbing, skiing . . . Messy tasks, bathroom renovations, messy and real. >This is all a bit much! I could be here full time & it would do me no >good. This is a value statement: Is it possible to really be certain of goodness and badness? If so, then why the flirtation with something, some power that ? I know that I am playing with words here. I understand that you mean your real-time life has value that is higher than the value of your on-line life. Yet I would tempt you to take the centre of the *dance* space. >At present i manage it, just -- I need little sleep. i have >not got into irc because I can work with the time structure email >provides -- half an email between clients, take the laptop to dinner >for a quiet read. I also do not voyage into the realm of irc ... fear ... However, I do not take my Pentium to dinner. >I feel motivated. I believe in this Psybernet project -- I think it is >important. I am intent on building and writing more in cyberspace. > >I do not want one life to wreck the other -- that is a danger. My >relationship with Kate seems to survive my absence. But does it grow? Do you grow even in the absence? What is growing within? what is being lost? >The closer we get to people who are a long way away, the further we >are from those who are physically near by. (did I see that in Wired?) But, we are not that far away, only a touch of the keyboard. That's what makes this place so dangerous. Heed Laurel's words. That's also what makes this place so beautiful. Just don't be taken in by the words of the poets and pests who touch that part of you you set free in these spaces. Listen and grow. >And what is probably glaringly obvious -- is that I have feelings >about the sexual aspects of irc. I am resistant to sexuality on the >net . . . I am perhaps vulnerable to its dangers? I dont _want_ to >explore it . . . and as i said ages ago -- what about experiential >learning then? How can i know about cs if i do not go into one of its >most powerful realms? Truly? I hear your words to Tama, to myself, to Laurel and others. The sexuality of these dialogues are raw and potent. As I mentioned before, all authentic dialogue has a sexual aspect. Listen to the inuendo, to the silences, listen to the whispers, listen to the *connections* and *relations* that frolic here in PSYBER-L. You don't have to wander to the irc channels. A few glimpses of the irc and its messy carnal nature were enough for me. The poet within, the philosopher within, decided to retreat to these more gentle and thoughtful spaces to meet with soul-kin, kin-dred spirits. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 21:51:07 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Marah Rosenberg~203-748-8835" Subject: Re: my apologies In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960420155801.00cb5e84@monmouth.com> > > > > The GUI is "In your face" if if you are a power user of the CLI, then you > can create an interface where a single letter or word does everything that > you want and need.. on the other hand, the GUI is almost always in your > face, and you are REQUIRED to do the routine mundane tasks with the mouse > (lots of eye hand coordination..) > - wilbur - what is cli? I am glad to find that i am not alone in my dislike of icon based interface. now, if I could control the icons - that would be neat. I hope that you are correct in your perdictions that people will stop liking the gui as it is. I am curios as to what you mean by lonely? I wonder if people are going to be in to programming their own interface... -=m _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:57:10 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: my apologies Comments: cc: THowe@aol.com At 09:51 PM 4/20/96 -0400, you wrote: >> > >> >> The GUI is "In your face" if if you are a power user of the CLI, then you >> can create an interface where a single letter or word does everything that >> you want and need.. on the other hand, the GUI is almost always in your >> face, and you are REQUIRED to do the routine mundane tasks with the mouse >> (lots of eye hand coordination..) >> >- wilbur - >what is cli? CLI is short for Command Line Interface.. or a text based interface, ie DOS or Unix. > >I am glad to find that i am not alone in my dislike of icon based >interface. now, if I could control the icons - that would be neat. >I hope that you are correct in your perdictions that people will stop >liking the gui as it is. Me too, I'm betting my future on it.. >I am curios as to what you mean by lonely? It's pretty dehumanizing to spend a lot of time staring at a computer screen. Whether it's a GUI or a CLI. I've heard songs and other displays of humanity that curse the computer interface and the time that it takes us away from talking with others.. As for myself, I worked in a big corporate environment for the last 3 years, so spending time at the computer screen is quite a change and and a shock.. but I've chosen to do that for quite a few reasons. But I get a real high when I get to spend time with people now, whereas last year I didn't want much to do with people, since I saw them all the time in meetings and such. Now it's a joy to spend time with people on the weekends, since I spend most of the week doing things by myself at the keyboard. At the same time, though, I understand that my internal being doesn't appreciate that there isn't a place in this world where I can just be human and be accepted. I have to subjigate my internal desires in order to make a living, in order to fit into this world. That subjigation from's from a lot of sources, the BS on TV, the News media, the constant lack of attention to the individual requirements of the people in the world. In short, as an individual, I'm forced to accept the world and then reach for individual fulfillment inside the framework of that world. Today's world is filled with technology designed to make life "easier" that enslaves us to the keyboard and the screen. (gee, I'm beginning to sound like the Unabomber?) I used to have a problem with smoking pot, one that I didn't have the means to control, so metaphorically at least, I chained myself to an IBM PC until my head cleared. I spent 6 hours of 8 hours a day or more at the screen of an IBM PC in 1982 in order to break myself of the craving for pot. I came to know the inside of the PC, (I mean ALL of the technology) because I read everything that was available. I wrote software for it, I amused myself with understanding EVERYTHING about the computer as a way to keep myself busy between the bouts of desire to get high. I knew that as long as I was looking at the computer screen, I wasn't putting on my jacket and going out to get high. I'm quite aware that there were familial influences in doing this, but I also saw this understanding of the computer as a took to getting out of the unskilled dead end that I was in, (despite being really bright in math and science, and a straight "A" student right up until I got so fed up with college that I dropped out..) I realized that the computer technology was going to give me a chance to be indespensible, and I went after that technology with a vengence. It's not a bad thing to know the PC inside and out, being as intelligent and intellectually agressive as I am and spending that much time with a PC means that I DO know the computer inside and out, right down to the chip level.. It eventually got to the point that I could hear and feel the people that did the design of the technology.. Even today I seem to have an internal dialog that I can resort to in order to solve any technology issue. I can simply ask myself "How did they create this design" or "why is this working this way" and usually see the sorts of discussions and design trade off's that were done in the technology. It a sort of "outside the lines" communcation, but it really helps close the design space of a problem. It really helps to form an assumption of how a technology would/should have been developed, and then check out the actual design. I'm now at the point where I can pick up a design in a matter of hours, and resolve high design problems in minutes. I seem to have communication skills of a different sort, the ability to communicate with the design realities of computer technology. But in order to have my intellect reach that level, it's was and is quite painful (ie. lonely). In order to master a new technology, I have to engage in total immersion and get to the point that I'm conversant with the ideas of the field. I eventually can tell the sort of mentality of the people that are the founders of a particular line of thought. (Einstein for example, was a brilliant visual thinker..) That's not a place that is very friendly, and most people don't understand that place very well, and even worse hate that I'm able to get to that place, and are jealous about or competative with my ability. There was a post a yesterday or today about "Ghosts" that described that we are just the embodiement of all that have come before. We carry around the thoughts and ideals, misinformation and mistaken belief of those that came before. I've known that for what seems like all of my life. I'm not sure if my parents know that, but it seems to me that I've always known it. I don't except an idea until I can see the person where it originated from, and then I don't accept an idea without understanding how it fit into it's origination. That's a very lonely place. Doing the work necessary to be in that place separates me from most people, and spending the time at the computer screen is lonely. I have some theories about that, some of the theories that I used to come to the position that it's time to put a human face onto the computer screen. The theory is that being with a person face to face is where we are happiest. I don't know if that is by biological design, or if it is by training from the infant state, but I do know that the greatest amount of communcation happens face to face, and that it's hard to treat a person as "less than human" when you are there with them "face to face". So as a way to maybe reduce the lonlyness in the world, and maybe reduce "man's inhumanity to man" I intend to put a face on the computer. (* Mine at first.. other's later.. *) Maybe then I'll find the place where that lonlyness doesn't exist anymore. Where I'm not a "Ghost" anymore and I'm just free to live my life without the influence of the "Ghosts". These thoughts to on for quite a while, but I think that's expressive enough.. > >I wonder if people are going to be in to programming their own interface... > I've already had a bunch of people ask me if they will be able to put their own face on the computer. ( I told them that I'm sure at some point I'll set up a service for $49.95 where I'll do that for them.. ) ( Yes, I know this is very weird.. but's what's even more wierd is that I'm not kidding ) --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:43:41 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: animus and anima Dolores wrote: <> I think this is key to understanding the power - and the danger - of netsex. The unconscious images of the soul are primitive, born of our animal heritage. The cybersex sites that I have seen feed the carnal, the bestial, the raging beast within. When I can reach and integrate my masculine side, that energy enhances my passion, my fire, my wild flights of sensuality - it becomes a part of me and all that I am. If I only feed the beast, it will soon grow big and strong enough to devour me. Rainer Maria Rilke wrote that "all emotions are pure which gather you and lift you up; that emotion is impure which seizes only one side of your being and so distorts you." I do not wish to encounter projections bred in the dark recesses of my psyche on the net; of such primal stuff are nightmares made! If there is netsex that can gather me and lift me up, I have not experienced it. I hope this is helpful. Marie moonasylum@aol.com _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:43:41 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: culture Hello, Psyberians! Pixy wrote: <> Robert Kegan (a Harvard psychologist) provides an evocative concept of culture that seems especially relevant here: "This psychosocial environment... is the particular form of the world in which the person is, at this moment in his or her own evolution, embedded. Since this is the very context in which, and out of which, the person grows, I have come to think of it as a culture of embeddedness. 'Culture' here is meant to evoke both an accumulating history and mythology and something grown in a medium in a Petri dish" (<> 1982, pp. 115-116). While I do not like the image of myself as "something grown in a medium in a Petri dish," I like the idea that culture is that which surrounds me, that which holds me and nourishes my growth. Kegan later writes that: "When the counselor responds to the problem not in terms of assurance, or its resolution, or its interpretation, but in terms of the experience of having, or being in, the problem, the counselor is offering the client a most intimate and usually unexpected companionship - not as another object in the world, but as a fellow hanger-in-the-balance, a companion to my very experience of knowing (meaning-making) and a party to the re-cognition whose time has come. The counselor is offering the client a culture to grow in" (p. 276). Is this not what we attempt to do here: provide for each other a culture to grow in? Marie moonasylum@aol.com _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:18:53 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever.. In-Reply-To: Robert, > Reading your words, I see the danger that you are facing here. > There is fire here that sears one to the core, energy that can call forth > changes that the author never asks for. Be careful, my friend. This ground > is not a playground of make-believe. It is the testing ground of the psyche. Robert, I have enjoyed seeing the attention you often give people and appreciate it now as you respond to me. Opening up on these matters as they relate to me is a good experience so far as you and Dolores & others have responded so thoughtfully. Danger. Yes I will be careful, I think I am. Please all do that, you too Robert, your relationship and mid life crisis will need attention. Yet how to do that? Right now I am here, feeling met. Attending to myself, this list (god what a silly word) and being met. How could I be more caring? It is Sunday afternoon, I have been visiting a friend, stopping for a cup of coffee and a bite in a favourite spot and have my toshiba and Psyber-L, then off to see a friend in hospital. Bit os a shock to bring so much rl into the conversation here, I experienced that in the post from Barbara where she mentioned Dunedin (where Tama lives) and also Christchurch, where I live. I have been present in a world shaped by metaphor, and the bathroom and cities intrude! Yet I do not want there to be a stone wall between the two worlds . > Messy tasks, bathroom renovations, messy and real. Exactly! > with something, some power that ? I know that I am > playing with words here. I understand that you mean your real-time life has > value that is higher than the value of your on-line life. Yet I would tempt > you to take the centre of the *dance* space. Hmmm, would do me no good because my rl is "Primary" – this psyber life needs the rl, but not higher as such. I value psyche and this is where it lives to some extent, with out my soul I am dead too! I do have a soul life away from here to be sure, but this is valuable. >Yet I would tempt you to take the centre of the *dance* space. I am _here_ I do not know if it is the centre. I am here and I see some others, I am the focus of a few! I am conflicted in the spot I am in. Can the list owner dance their own list? Can the facilitator dance? I do not want an answer, please notice the conflict! The other side of it is that I appreciate the invitation be invited out like that. > I also do not voyage into the realm of irc ... fear ... However, I > do not take my Pentium to dinner. Ah, now it is a dance, as you share Robert and I am not alone in the spot that might or might not be the centre. ... fear ... you say. You also say, perhaps to your self, that the sexuality inherent in our relationships here is present in the list! I loved hearing that, in some ways this _is_ our learning, _my_ learning about "netsex", and that is fantastic. Do you feel afraid of it here? I feel OK, on my growing edge as it were. > >I do not want one life to wreck the other -- that is a danger. My > >relationship with Kate seems to survive my absence. > > But does it grow? Do you grow even in the absence? What is growing > within? what is being lost? Yes it grows, imo, she is away with her work buddies this weekend, and I’ll see her tonight & see what she thinks on that matter, I bet it is mutual! (lets see). > But, we are not that far away, only a touch of the keyboard. That's > what makes this place so dangerous. Physically far and close in other ways, yes that is what I meant. Dangerous? You seem to move between caution and courage in the face of it! I think I do that too. > Heed Laurel's words. I listen to her. I think we both appreciate her in this place. Speak about facilitation! > That's also what > makes this place so beautiful. Just don't be taken in by the words of the > poets and pests who touch that part of you you set free in these spaces. > Listen and grow. . . . don't be taken in . . . be taken . . . in . . . intimacy . . . taken , held, . . . be taken . . . be held . . . dance . . . > >And what is probably glaringly obvious -- is that I have feelings > >about the sexual aspects of irc. I am resistant to sexuality on the > >net . . . I am perhaps vulnerable to its dangers? I dont _want_ to > >explore it . . . and as i said ages ago -- what about experiential > >learning then? How can i know about cs if i do not go into one of its > >most powerful realms? > > Truly? I hear your words to Tama, to myself, to Laurel and others. > The sexuality of these dialogues are raw and potent. As I mentioned before, > all authentic dialogue has a sexual aspect. Listen to the inuendo, to the > silences, listen to the whispers, listen to the *connections* and > *relations* that frolic here in PSYBER-L. You don't have to wander to the > irc channels. Yes and yes and yes. Yes truly I dig my heels, and yes I encourage others to be here and yes I love it that you encourage me, and yes I see also that you are encouraging you! > A few glimpses of the irc and its messy carnal nature were enough > for me. The poet within, the philosopher within, decided to retreat to these >more gentle and thoughtful spaces to meet with soul-kin, kin-dred spirits. Is that a retreat in the face of danger? What is this danger! I want to face it rather than retreat. I do not retreat from poison or alcohol or nicotine, I just don't partake in excess. A great dance Robert – thanks. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 16:52:13 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Alyss Thomas Subject: Re: New girl in psyberspace Hi everyone, I have just joined the list. I'm a psychotherapist in the UK, humanistic-integrative variety, I'm in private practice and am also into groups. And literature, transformative metaphor, psychoanalysis, surfing. The recent conversation about the nature of net relationships reminds me of some viewpoints on the therapeutic relationship - the promises it holds and yet can't deliver; the fact that you can be so perfectly met, understood and 'held' - and yet you can't have the person, they are with someone else, somewhere else. And the people you can have, who are there with you, don't understand so deeply or so well. A sense of loss seems to be built into some of our most precious attachments. The other thing I find interesting is that if the unconscious mind/soul doesn't really have a conception of time and space - memories, relationships and feeling states etc remain present and real no matter when they happened , thus objects or persons in cyberspace can be mentally and emotionally just as significant and present as those in dreamspace, or in any other slightly altered state. I don't really agree with the Lonely Nerd approach to cyber relating. It does't replace real time relating any more than dreaming replaces waking reality. There may be people who sleep all the time, but they would perhaps be unwell or in crisis or undergoing a shamanic transformation. I'd be interested in discussing metaphor and also supervision if anyone else is.I've been having a pretty 'interesting' midlife crisis sort of thing, just emerging from a long period of depression and immersion in my own interior life - so coming out into the interconnected world feels especially important right now. I hope to have wonderful new conversations... Kind regards, Alyss Thomas. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 15:46:51 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: New girl in psyberspace Hello Alyss, You have a partner in your corner of the world who has been a frequent contributor here, Laurel/Dolores. Welcome to Pysberia which knows no nationalistic boundaries. >I'm a psychotherapist in the UK, >humanistic-integrative variety Ahh-hh! Perls, Jung, Rogers (perhaps a little dash of Hammerstein?). I think we snared another good one here, Walter! >The recent conversation about the nature of net relationships reminds me >of some viewpoints on the therapeutic relationship - the promises it holds >and yet can't deliver; the fact that you can be so perfectly met, >understood and 'held' - and yet you can't have the person, they are with >someone else, somewhere else. What an idea! Do I understand that the soul-mate that one meets here is *hands off* in real-time? Does it matter if either or both are connected in relation with other(s) -- a *moral* issue? Which is more moral, to suffer separation from the one who is so perfectly met, understood and 'held', or the one to whom we are attached to be social and legal custom? >The other thing I find interesting is that >if the unconscious mind/soul doesn't really have a conception of time and >space - memories, relationships and feeling states etc remain present and >real no matter when they happened , thus objects or persons in cyberspace can >be mentally and emotionally just as significant and present as those in >dreamspace, or in any other slightly altered state. Could they be just as significant as those in real-time space? >I've been having a pretty 'interesting' midlife crisis sort of thing, just >emerging from a long period of depression and immersion in my own interior >life That makes two of us who have come out of the *mid-life crisis* closet. As a poet/philosopher/counsellor/teacher/parent/spouse/person, I am enjoying the connectivity with soul-kin here on PSYBER-L. I think you will too, Alyss. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 11:21:02 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Re: PSYBER: Sharmila Pixy Ferris Pixy to Robert: >>> Robert> Exactly! I am surprised of the synchronocity here. My last post > (PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning) touched upon that very theme. IMHO, there > is no real understanding of the psychology of a list/listserv without > understanding its anthropology. Pixy: I couldn't agree more. One problem here is that a good anthropologist must immerse him/herself in the culture, but problems of time and other commitments often prevent that in a cyberculture such as this one. Another problem is the relative youth of the medium. The culture is growing and developing, so studying it from within is like a fish studying water --soemthing that McLuhan says can't be done effectively <<< If a culture is developing , we as being knowingly aware of this growth have an opportunity to sample it, analyze the samples and collect outco- mes in a description language. If there are sufficiently many descriptions, common patterns begin to emerge - leading to first hypotheses having to be tested, reformulated a.s.o. - the dry stuff of science, indeed. I'd like to venture this sort of gathering in the thread on e-mail comm expres- sivity and repeat my invitation here in precise terms: If you'd like to describe how e-mailing *feels* to you personally, I'll gather the storys and translate abstracts of them into the common description language of psychology As you may glean from my first resume, contributors will be mentioned by name, and the essentials of their contribution will be described in a possibly generalized way. You're free to ask questioons, offer comments and the things you ever wanted to tell me. But - without your conttributions I'm an anthropologist without a culture to immerse in. Happy to read from you, Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 11:47:35 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: animus and anima Dear Marie, Thank you for taking the time to write and explain Jung . >Jung's concept of individuation requires that these contrasexual parts of the >self be balanced, that men must integrate the disowned feminine aspects of >their personality (anima) and that women must integrate the repressed >masculine aspects of their personality (animus) in order to be whole. Er..Amen to that. > >So you are right. The animus and anima are <projected in dreams, myths and fantasys.>> I think this is key to >understanding the power - and the danger - of netsex. The unconscious images >of the soul are primitive, born of our animal heritage. The cybersex sites >that I have seen feed the carnal, the bestial, the raging beast within. When >I can reach and integrate my masculine side, that energy enhances my passion, >my fire, my wild flights of sensuality - it becomes a part of me and all that >I am. If I only feed the beast, it will soon grow big and strong enough to >devour me. This is fascinating.. Why do you think that so many men wander in disguise as women, do you think they are unconciously trying to get in touch with their feminine sides? Is then Homosexuality..excess anima? Lesbianism excess Animus? Bisexuality..perfect harmony? I have met or known of dozens of men who have wandered the net in feminine guise, but never any women attempting the reverse. I did try it once as an experiment..but was told that I acquired all the worse male traits, as a man even I didnt even like myself very much. I felt exceedingly uncomfortable too. Yet getting touch with a more male side of my femininity as you say enhances my passion...Completely different from an irc gender change for me at least. I understand exactly what your saying too about integrating the masculine side. Im extremely gratefull Im a woman actually .I couldnt deal with all that Testosterone and macho competitiveness. A touch of it however is nice. Men are taught in some ways that to show emotion is almost a weakness..I personally think *real* men cry and eat quiche. I am convinced that in cyberspace men are able to get more in touch with their emotions. This is a medium of emotion as well as the imagination. >I hope this is helpful. > It was...very. Thankyou Dolores _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 12:06:27 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Re: animus and anima Dolores, I am not an expert on Jung by any means, but this thread engages me. <> Jung believed that some homosexuality was the result of an overidentification with the animus or anima, but I think this would be restricted to those who express an opposite gender identity in the world in some way. Transvestites do not always seek sex with members of the same gender; a male transvestite may still desire women. There seems to be a biological, hormonal component to sexual desire that is independent of the twists and turns of the psyche. In many ways, my masculine side has been more pronounced that my feminine side. I am the oldest of five children; my father expected (demanded!) that I be strong, smart, ambitious, self-reliant. The expression of emotion was swiftly ridiculed and suppressed ("if you want to cry, I'll give you something to cry about"). I internalized his expectations, learning to value my intellect and trying to control anything in me that seemed weak or too emotional. I worked in a very masculine culture in the corporate world (Investment Manager in a commercial bank), and there, too, I was rewarded for my more "masculine" attributes. Yet I do not desire women, and I have always experienced myself as essentially female (even in all the years that I spent trying to deny my femininity). I can imagine making love with a woman, and enjoying the experience; I have no doubt that I could respond physically and emotionally to the embrace of a woman. However, my pulse has never quickened at the thought of holding a woman in my arms. There is a pervasive sense of *other* with a man that excites me in the depths of my being, that stirs my blood in some primal way that has nothing to do with my mind at all.... <> Jung came to believe that wholeness meant to achieve a state of selfhood and self-realization that required the unconscious to become conscious--a fluid integration of ego, persona, shadow, animus/anima. A marriage or communion of male and female, rationality and instinct, outer face and inner voice. Would this "perfect harmony" lead to bisexual expression? I don't know. I think not for me. I am new to this place, and usually reticent about revealing myself to strangers--never mind sharing intimate reflections on sexuality! I don't feel like a stranger here. Thank you for being open; it helps me feel safe enough to share who I am. Marie moonasylum@aol.com _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:13:47 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Steven B. Hoath" Subject: Re: animus and anima >From Marie--- >Jung's concept of individuation requires that these contrasexual parts of the >self be balanced, that men must integrate the disowned feminine aspects of >their personality (anima) and that women must integrate the repressed >masculine aspects of their personality (animus) in order to be whole. From Laurel--- >This is fascinating.. Why do you think that so many men wander in disguise >as women, do you think they are unconciously trying to get in touch with >their feminine sides?...I have met or known of dozens of men who have >wandered the net in feminine guise, but never any women >attempting the reverse. ********************************************************** Hmm...this is an interesting area...is it really true that only men experiment with their sexual identity in cyberspace? Or is it possible that the ability to "try on" alternative personalities is more a matter of the willingness to experiment with the various aspects of the self...to give these aspects a face and push them out of the nest for public display and interaction? Personally, I have an intense curiousity to see my "self" in various guises...in other words, I want to see how I perform in various roles. Is this the desire of a twisted mind or of an individual intent on exploring his own interior reality? In my opinion, the answer depends upon the set of moral principles which guide the resulting interactions...the same road can lead to a higher, better integrated self in one direction while opening on the "the carnal, the bestial, the raging beast" the other way. (Hmm...is this the time to mention being Lassie on the #dogsex channel?) In cyberspace, as was noted by both Marie and Laurel, the avenue of netsex forms a broad and bustling highway running through the center of a teeming emotional landscape. To ignore this aspect of cyberspace is to purposefully overlook one of its major sources of energy. Fortunately or unfortunately, there are no speed limits here and no way to penetrate easily the various guises one encounters. This is why issues such as deception are so important. I have no doubt, for example, that this landscape is increasingly littered with the twisted bleeding bodies of cyberspace roadkill. This is sad but true. As Walter has pointed out...not all who enter cyberspace are equipped to handle the resulting intimacy. The point of this letter (assuming, of course, that it has one) is to point out the overlap of sexual identity exploration, deception, and time. In my view, the concept of a "one night stand" in real life is rife with sexual/social innuendo and prejudgment. I wonder, however, whether the connotations of this sort of real life activity also apply in cyberspace? Certainly, there is no danger of sexually transmitted diseases (other than computer viruses...hehe). In fact, I suspect that it would be an interesting and useful topic to consider the role of cyberspace/internet relay chat networks as "laboratories" for psychosexual exploration...as testing grounds for various aspects of the self. The focus on sex is merely the initial entry ticket since it is an easy avenue to link the imagination with the emotions, the intellect, and the physical body. Deception in this milieu is not a problem IF (big if) one enters this "laboratory" committed for only a single encounter. (The development of dedicated sites for this sort of exploratory activity would probably help to clarify initial expectations.) Deception becomes a major problem, however, when the desire is for a longer term committment. Does this differentiate males and females in any way...and, if so, why? What are the healthy and unhealthy aspects of the "one night stand" in cyberspace? Doesn't the development of true intimacy in cyberspace require foregoing all deception and being willing to reveal one's innermost self devoid of all artifice? All comments welcome. Enquiring minds want to know. Steven _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 16:23:00 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever.. In-Reply-To: I have been following with interest the dialogue about Cyberia and it 's effect on human lives. I am a newbie; have only been on the internet for a few months. But for me, there is no comparison between this communication and face to face. I wonder if the reason it is so easy to bare one's soul or mind on this computer is because anonymity makes the communication so safe. But when I communicate to you my soul when I have no intention of actually meeting you, am I really being intimate? To me, intimacy is being able to be who you are in a relationship. Intimacy is then not possible in Cyberspace, because what I write is not all of who I am. I wonder if there are any statistics on whether any on-line romances actually survive the whole body experience. Certainly the internet serves a valuable purpose for the exchange of information, but, IMO, not as a replacement for human contact. Barbara (and hopeless romantic) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 16:32:25 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Netsex..etc etc etc In-Reply-To: <199604201106.MAA23216@easynet.co.uk> Dolores, I read with interest your discourse on netsex and Jung's anima and animus. The way I understand it, everyone has an anima (female side) and animus (male side). In romantic relationship, the woman seeks out a man that is like her animus, or male side, and vice versa. The problem comes in when she projects her animus onto a man, and doesn't actually see who the man is. I see this happening in romance on-line even easier than in non-cyberspace. We are even more free to project our fantasy into the words of another person, to fit those words into what we want to hear. And then when we actually meet the person, we find out that they are not our animus projection after all, they are a different person. Finding our animus/anima in another is a way of making ourselves whole that doesn't work. Eventually, the love object is found out as not being our opposite self, but another person entirely, and we fall out of love. The solution? To be a whole, integrated person, not searching for the anima/animus in a relationship. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 22:58:21 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: the heart of the machine [was:Re: my apologies] In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960421035710.00cacb68@monmouth.com> Wilbur, I loved reading the tale of your journey into the machine. The highlight was that at the heart of the machine you "met" the people who designed it! > >I am curios as to what you mean by lonely? > > It's pretty dehumanizing to spend a lot of time staring at a computer > screen. Whether it's a GUI or a CLI. I've heard songs and other displays of > humanity that curse the computer interface and the time that it takes us > away from talking with others.. I am experiencing it as a communication tool, enabling me to meet with people in a way that was not possible before, I felt a loneliness when I used to make notes in my journal, talking back to the authors of the books I was reading. But I know what you mean it is not the same as face to face -- we need plenty of that. [snip] > But in order to have my intellect reach that level, it's was and is quite > painful (ie. lonely). In order to master a new technology, I have to engage > in total immersion and get to the point that I'm conversant with the ideas > of the field. I relate to the total immersion. I have done it in my field, psychotherapy which does not take me away from peple, and yet it does, because I have this one fixed focus and role which I never cease to be curious about and want to delve into - not all that many others do -- that is what I like about being on this list -- there are very few around me f2f who pursue these matters, and though there is plenty here I would love a f2f augmentation. > I've already had a bunch of people ask me if they will be able to put their > own face on the computer. ( I told them that I'm sure at some point I'll > set up a service for $49.95 where I'll do that for them.. ) > > ( Yes, I know this is very weird.. but's what's even more wierd is that I'm > not kidding ) > >,------------------------------------- > Putting a human face on technology. ;-) >,------------------------------------- I am so intrigued by all this -- had a look at the web pages you posted too -- interesting. I am all for email though -- I will be interested in the graphical 7 video revolution I sense around the corner -- but _text_ is reveals another dimension. Talking of ghosts from the past -- every word is a ghost -- it carries its history, mythology, depth. * I know it is uncool but I love my win95 GUI! I love ctrl-c and ctrl-v for cutting and pasting from email to docs etc. I love having 4 or 5 apps open at once. I also add little things to it to improve it, that is a type of programming my own interface. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 23:09:42 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Metaphor In-Reply-To: <960421165213_195642879@emout13.mail.aol.com> Hi Alyss, > I'd be interested in discussing metaphor Welcome and good to see your interest in this. What are you thinking of exactly? What comes to mind for me is that Cyberspace is a metaphor, for a place that is build out of metaphor. Even in the last month or so this list (about the most literal way it can be described) has been called everything from a mall to a spaceship. We attempt to find a home in a place built of metaphor that shifts like a sand storm -- that is its beauty -- it is an imaginal realm. Each of us sees us through their own dream. walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 00:02:56 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Supervision In-Reply-To: <960421165213_195642879@emout13.mail.aol.com> Alyss, > I'd be interested in discussing . . . supervision if anyone else > is. Great, discussing it is one thing and doing it is another. What is the place of this media for supervision? I think it has great potential. In some ways the Group Psychotherapy list is just that, an open list which looks at general clinical questions, useful. Yet supervision goes much deeper, looking at the counter-transference (the therapists own personal stuff as it relates to the client) that would not be so good in an open list. Client confidentiality being one factor. One on-topic question for this list is how one could set up ethical effective supervision on the net for psychotherapy, and why! Supervision of psychological work done on the net is another topic. One of the amazing things about the work here is that it is also the transcript of the work! (almost, because there is something of the passage of time that is not captured in the archives). This list can go quite some way towards looking at the general principles. Even more than that we can offer each other peer feedback in the list. I am in the formal role of facilitator and list owner, hence I am prepared to experience the pleasure and the pain of getting critique on my facilitation and "list-owner" roles, I expect all those who hope to do psychological work in cyberspace can benefit from that. Many have taken effective leadership roles here. Mila is initiating and facilitating a project within the list, I am very impressed with the conception of it. Charles has facilitated the HipBone games and that is certainly a form of psychological work. Robert acts as a host which many have appreciated, including me. Supervision can enhance these roles ! There is definitely a place for supervision for list owners, there are so many issues involved, ethics, structure of lists, effective intervention, the place for self disclosure. Much of it is still to be learnt. Supervision in the psych areas, btw, for those not familiar with it, as you may be gathering, is a purposeful type of psychotherapy for the therapists, with the essential focus on the welfare of the clients. It often includes some structure for checking on the work, and reporting to an agency, but it is primarily clinical and not administrative. Alyss, I have said a lot and it may be nothing like what you wanted to raise, but thanks for the keyword, it got me going! I hope there is something here to enable you to go in the direction you want. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 00:12:50 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Community Interesting article on Virtual Community: http://www.well.com/user/hlr/texts/VCcivil.html w _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 14:24:19 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Re: animus and anima Marie, I am not an expert on Jung by any means, but this thread engages me, too. >>> Dolores: <> Marie: Jung believed that some homosexuality was the result of an overidentification with the animus or anima, but I think this would be restricted to those who express an opposite gender identity in the world in some way. <<< Jung wasn't aware of the division of gender roles in homosexual pairs, which then wasn't visible as it is today. There are macho gays oriented towards those who, indeed, express an opposite gender identity. You'll rarely find two macho gays paired, or two gays of the same femininity degree. In fulfilment of their role, the latter often do crossdressing - so transvestitism has *nothing* to do with sexual orientation - to amplify your statement on this issue. Your being raised a boy by your father was *never* intended to touch your femi- ninity, of which he was well aware; he seems to have believed in male values as a means to survive - and you kept verifying his beliefs all the time - and it has had its rewards. But beneath your "male value equipment" you've remained a woman all the time, with all desires women are experiencing in life. Let me end this paragraph by citing your moving *key* sentence: >>> There is a pervasive sense of *other* with a man that excites me in the depths of my being, that stirs my blood in some primal way that has nothing to do with my mind at all.... <<< A key to what?? Let me think further at my own peril: I think you're right in putting emphasis on the word "other"... You want to stress the "other"ness of a man in certain contexts, to be sure. A usual male would replace "man" by "woman", of course. This may be indicative of the word "other" transcending the special beloved one. And so there are experiences of over-consciousness of this key feeling/sentence, in which "other" dominates, overradiates, subdues the words following it - aad thus an obsession with re-thinking this key sentence over and over may trigger change of libidinous and sexual orientation. (Female outfit can be "other" in many ways to some men.) This might also explain sudden re-orientation during midlife crisis... >>> <> Jung came to believe that wholeness meant to achieve a state of selfhood and self-realization that required the unconscious to become conscious--a fluid integration of ego, persona, shadow, animus/anima. A marriage or communion of male and female, rationality and instinct, outer face and inner voice. Would this "perfect harmony" lead to bisexual expression? I don't know. I think not for me. <<< Jung didn't intend bisexual orientation. I tend to think more of equal availabi- lity of rational thinking *and* the utmost range of feelings, that he had in mind as an ideal for the mature personality. Perhaps you, Marie, are approaching this ideaal closely ?? All the best, Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:32:32 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: AK Naskali Subject: Re: the heart of the machine [was:Re: my apologies] Walter, You wrote: <> You are starting to sound like many of us Mac lovers! Do you also give loving looks and pats to your computer? I must admit I do respond with a smile when I see my Mac booting up with it's little smile icon. Is that putting a face on technology as well? :-) I just want to add how much I enjoy the postings in this list. I'm doing a linguistics course on online communication at the moment -- online. I finished reading Sherry Turkle's book LIFE ON THE SCREEN and recommend it highly. I'm still digesting it. Last quarter I'd read a book by Richard Kearney called THE WAKE OF IMAGINATION. In it Kearney poses the challenge of moving past Postmodern thought which Turkle seems to accept as the current, almost desirable evolutionary stage. She describes how computers have moved from Romantic, to Modern, and finally to Postmodern ways of thinking. I tend to agree with Kearney about the need to develop a new imagination which he calls ethical-poetical imagination, <> [p. 392] Kearney writes at the end of his book: <> [p. 396] I can imagine that the internet with, for example, its chat areas and mailing lists could become a powerful tool or arena to develop Kearney's type of imagination and help heal the fragmentation, alienation and superficiality of our postmodern society, OR it can lead to further fragmentation, alienation and superficiality. I'm definitely interested in exploring ways to encourage the former and prevent the latter. I probably should explain more in order to give a clearer picture, a more complete story about what I'm trying to express, especially since I don't imagine that any of you have read both of these books. However, I really am strapped for time at this moment. So please accept some of my thoughts as I take time from my online coursework and ponder possible research/dissertation topics...... Thanks, Arja-Kaisa _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 13:58:51 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: Metaphor Alyss writes: > I'd be interested in discussing metaphor Let me throw out some ideas... * There is the difference between metaphor and simile to contend with. We tend, I think, to think of metaphors as similes with the word "like" dropped out of them for greater effect: thus, "you're an angel" means less than it says, it means "you're like an angel" or perhaps more formally "you have angelic qualities"... :: Descriptively, then, all metaphors are similes. When we are :: writing ordinary discursive prose and use a metaphor, we are not :: asserting that A is B; we are "really" saying that A is in some :: respects comparable to B=8A :: Northrop Frye, *Anatomy of Criticism*, p 123 ... and it seldom occurs to us that "having angelic qualities" might in truth involve a *participation* in the angelic order... or that a sacramental view of life is by its nature not similaic but metaphoric: :: The animal and vegetable worlds are identified with each other, :: and with the divine and human worlds as well, in the Christian :: doctrine of transubstantiation, in which the essential human :: forms of the vegetable world, food and drink, the harvest and the :: vintage, the bread and the wine, *are* the body and blood of the :: Lamb who is also Man and God, and in whose body we exist as :: in a city or temple. Here again the orthodox doctrine insists on :: metaphor as against simile... :: Frye, *Anatomy of Criticism*, p 143 * There's an interesting connection between metaphor (meta-pherein, greek, to carry across) and translation (trans-latus, latin, from trans-ferre, to carry across): translation has the additional meaning, removal from earth to heaven without death, which raises the issue of what we might call "vertical" metaphors, ie metaphors which address one state of consciousness by reference to another, for instance in illustration of the Hermetic principle "as above, so below". I have I think seen Octavio Paz talking about "ascending" and "descending" metaphors, citing two haiku, one written by Kikaku, one of Basho's poetic disciples: :: Dragonfly :: I remove the wings :: A pea pod! and the other by Basho himself in response: :: A pea pod :: I place wings on it :: A dragonfly! * And another interesting link is that between metaphor and metamophosis, as in the Russian poet Sinyavski's observation: :: The poet is a failed magician=8Awho has substituted metaphor for :: metamorphosis. * Alyss, does any of this tie in with psychotherapy, or the nature of the dream world perhaps, as you encounter them? Best wishes, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 18:46:15 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Re: animus and anima Mila, Thank you for weaving yourself into this thread. <> <<>> < Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Re: metaphor Alyss: < Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Anima & animus & projections Hi all, I decided to inject a few words of my own on this topic following a little re-read of some Jung (Aion: Phenomenology of Self). In his chapters dealing with *shadow*, *anima*, and *animus*, Jung speaks of <> and their effects upon a person that I feel have a significant relevence to psychology on-line. As most of you, as trained professionals and students of Jung already know (which I am learning through reading and re-reading for self interest), the effect of projection is isolation. Reality and relation become illusory, one dreams of a reality, a world, that is impossible to attain. These projections lead to what Jung refers to as "auto-erotic" conditions (or autistic conditions). Jung points to the *anima* and *animus* as the source of projections. Returning to the discussions begun by Dolores regarding the issue of cyber.sex as a therapy model, and having taken the time to read most of the articles found at the Web site posted by Walter, it is very striking to note the parallels between Jung's thesis and the dialogue of romance and sex. The authors of the dialogues create an illusion that draws them in so intensely yet offers only a sterile and empty reward, an illusion that heightens the isloation they are so vigorously trying to escape using the 'net. As a second note, I want to point out one of Jung's discussions regarding the *anima* and *animus*. With their meeting there is a positive as well as a negative "possible" outcome. The positive outcome is refered to as falling in love (love at first sight -- love at first byte). These *love* relationships are typified as being emotional, full of "animosity" (rooted in animus/anima - I just love the way language works!). My question now for those whose studies leave my sucking dust: how does this relate to our quest here in Psyberia? Robert de Cyberie (my attempt to be more than a host) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 19:27:38 +1200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Tama.Neill" Subject: Some of Tama's poetry. Hello, I am busy, so I just though I would project some of my poetry into the Space-so as to say I'm still here: Cool Fool It's so hard being cool I feel like a real sentimental fool constricted, held tight in a straight jacket I'm just an aquintance not a Lover she gets drunk flirts with funk she wants you Kate I try to see the amusing side keep occuppied feel happy But it's false should of gone up to you & been straight Hey I like you but I feel like retreating back into a shell somewhere warm & dark where no Siren can sing to me. Gardens Meeting Well that was a bit sad huh, well I meet kate today, we talked in the botanical gardens by a fountain watching the sun go down, laughing, resting on each other I did not retreat-said I wanted to stop stuffing around with each other & stop Freinds contemplative but she could turn it on & off like a tap heart controlled by brain not me, casual involvement nah but she did happen to mention that we could have a drink sometime & have sex is'nt that strange I'll wait until the dust settles could be fun shalla la la ha ha ! Relisations of Water Need water fire is too hot to fickle hot then smokey take the air away & it's out water floating swimming tossed & turned on waves rideing the high to shore screaming in excitement I wanna share the waters cool carm tranqil ripples to see the side that's me BED Bed warm bed hope me in you to lie breath warm secure in tender sleep waery bliss take into oblivion unconscious darkness sometimes flitted in remembrance Orange Numb Forcefully throwing an orange to & fro peeling citrus sprayed orange skin roughly off carefully peeling peices juicy citrus meeting cracking crunching pips on teeth leaning staring in unreality sharp defined blurred in it's clarity it's slightly fun being numb coffee is high I'm not low but I'm not high see me fly at Hi you playing games tangeling in tongues of rope when stoned in bemusement hes with you attracted only by an underfineable strand unreality mine for I'm looking down on me how funnily peculiar have fun-Oooh ludricrous hope you have a good relationship cause I gotta do some work Heart Beated My hearts not beating double time maybe it will never beat faster talking about the weather kissing I think now I should be want but suitcase-coffe table-Yes!! Have I got a suprise for you I wont know if you ask me riddle me this riddle me that wicked games I know not when we shall join in fiery embrace Future too confused now Just breath away your gonna wade from the shallows brave drowning in deeper waters Time was an exuse How convient now the coins been flipped were still connected you think I'm final ending only in conclusion not seen for a while try to explain messy unfinished stammering sentences that end in I wish you were standing here I'll see you & hear from you but I wont be you strange black comedy lifes weaved I muse fill me into life I'll stand out like colour if even I'm there past present future meld me in exspectations of you there... (Kate choose the selection of poems fromabout 14) I'm getting over Kate now, were on a different levle, were like perhaps girlfriends although the strange thing is there is the idea of sleeping together in the air. GoodBye!! _____________________ *TAMA JAMEY NEILL* 19 Haywood st, Mornington Dunedin, New Zealand *P:(03)4554627* *E-MAIL address:-* *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz* ____________________________ Custom-Sized Screen Realities: TURN ON TUNE IN BOOT UP "To be is to do" -Socrates "To do is to be" -Sartre "Do be do be do" -Sinatra Just say "Know" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 13:11:24 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Re: animus and anima Marie, Thank you for the warm welcome as well as for your open intense response. Mind to see the full citate again for understanding how the word "other" gains its preponderance for some ?? For easier following I'll throw in comments on single lines. >>> There is a pervasive sense of *other* with a man that excites me in the depths of my being, that stirs my blood in some primal way that has nothing to do with my mind at all.... <<< >> A key to what?? Let me think further at my own peril: I think you're right in putting emphasis on the word "other"... << Here, I wanted to point that this emphasis is playing the main role in what follows: >> You want to stress the "other"ness of a man in certain contexts, to be sure. A usual male would replace "man" by "woman", of course. << Just imagine a loving man forming "his" sentence, putting the same emphasis on the same "other". So far, so understandable. I've left out the transition to the next line: >>This may be indicative of the word "other" transcending the special beloved >>one. As the sentence we're talking of is formed in some language, it is amenable to the most powerful operation of >rational thinking<, called "abstraction". Thus the next lines are telling about "abstracting away the love object", seen mostly in men valuing very abstract thinking, when they suffer from a severe personal crisis: >>> And so there are experiences of over-consciousness of this key feeling/sentence, in which "other" dominates, overradiates, subdues the words following it - aad thus an obsession with re-thinking this key sentence over and over may trigger change of libidinous and sexual orientation. (Female outfit can be "other" in many ways to some men.) <<< Ie, they form - and feel - something like this ... pervasive sense of ***OTHER*** with a === that excites me in the depths of my being, ... where it depends on their bio and other circumstances, how they interpret that big "other" to replace the "===". >>This might also explain sudden re-orientation during midlife crisis... I've seen some brilliant thinkers turn homosexual or fetish-transvestite during their resp. crises. Hope I could clarify my rather visionary stuff.. >>> < Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Intro - Marie Tondreau In-Reply-To: <960420113828_518162985@emout16.mail.aol.com> Marie, a kindred spirit! I also have an interest in OD, and am finishing up an MA in Counseling from the University of Northern Colorado. I also have a certificate in OD from National Training Labs. In the fall I am starting a doctoral program at Colorado State University in Human Resource Development and Adult LifeSpan Learning....I hope to concentrate on some OD there as well. Where are you getting your MA? Do you know your MBTI? Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 14:10:51 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Jung in Psyberia Hello, people! I want to try to explore some of the thoughts this dialogue has stimulated in me, in light of Steven's comments on role-playing: <> and Robert's question: <> Jung held individuation to be an innate developmental process in which the various systems or structures of the personality become more differentiated, more complex, capable of more subtle and intricate conscious expression, as a result of experience and learning. A personality system can only individuate by becoming conscious: I think this is crucial to our discussion here. Deficiencies in experience do not allow optimal opportunity for development, and our modern world discourages certain types of expression. We are taught to keep a tight lid on the shadow, to keep our animal instincts under control. Men in our society learn that the expression of qualities associated with the anima (feminine) are unacceptable; women are penalized for expressing masculine qualities (animus). Jung believed that neglected aspects of the personality remain unconscious, repressed, and therefore retain their more primitive, undifferentiated characteristics. Repressed archetypes do not, however, subside into peaceful quiescence; they slip the bonds of conscious control in extreme, often pathological ways. Is this not an argument for the use of Cyberspace as a playground , a kind of experimental laboratory where alternative personalities can find expression? Maybe -- if there is a conscious intention to explore other ways of being -- if the experience provides an opportunity for learning, and if it is integrated into the way that the self organizes meaning. I think this is difficult to do by pretending to be someone or something else. If I decide to present myself as a man, I become subject to societal norms for what defines a man, and I remove myself from the context of my own experience. I may learn a little about what it feels like to be a man -- how the responses of others differ when I am in this role -- but what do I learn about myself? If, on the other hand, I choose to find out how it feels to express myself (my authentic self) in a more expansive way, without concern for artificial designations (such as the complex constellation of socially constructed values that are evoked around the issue of gender and polarized into rigid assumptions about what it means to be masculine or feminine), I can escape the tyranny of labels and root my experience in a personally meaningful context. Wearing the "mask" of an alternative personality provides a protective barrier that dilutes the impact of authentic encounter and makes it easier to ignore or discount parts of the experience that I would rather not see. It didn't count. It wasn't really me. For Psyberia, now.... this consensual reality that transcends the linear pattern of letters that sit neatly filed in a subdirectory on my computer.... Irvin Yalom said that one of the greatest values of group psychotherapy was that the group becomes a social microcosm in which people recreate their usual patterns of interaction with others, and where they can experiment with alternate behaviors. This is a place where we can see ourselves as others see us, where we can become more conscious of the way we present ourselves to the world, where we can expand our repetoire of interactional styles. We facilitate that process for each other, directly (through our written responses) and indirectly (by who and what we respond to, and how). If I am not authentic here, if I attempt to create a persona that is not genuine, I lose the opportunity of obtaining insight. This does not preclude the expression of different aspects of the personality -- nor does it invalidate a metaphorical presentation of self. We are not static or unidimensional beings; at any one time, I may speak as an intellectual, a poet, a parent, a child.... There may be times when I speak in the metaphorical language of dreams, allowing the phoenix to voice the patterns of death and rebirth in my life, letting the orphan child communicate my fear of being lost and alone in the world.... The conscious expression of self opens me to greater self-understanding and self-realization that is nurtured by the rich, sustaining ambience of this "culture to grow in." Robert wrote that <> I think he is right. Illusion is a powerful, glittering drug that would tell us we are being fed while we slowly starve to death. Our commitment to authenticity and our ability to stand back and reflect on our experience mitigates the danger of being caught up in illusion. Psyberia is only as real as we are willing to be.... Marie moonasylum@aol.com _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 15:38:13 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Pixy Ferris Subject: Continuing conversations... Hi all --Just wanted to aplogize for my absence from the discussions over the past few days. It'll be a couple more days till I can once again participaet (big research conference, combined with end-of-the semester teaching and exams make an unbelievably heavy load!). I'm particularly looking forward to resuming dialgue with Robert, Walter, Marie and Dr. Klemm, and really regret not being able to do so sooner. BTW Walter and Robert - Gerald Phillips was a valued friend as well as my advisor, and it was a pleasure to see that he is remembered and respected. Cheers! _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 16:58:44 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Intro - Marie Tondreau In-Reply-To: Robert, I am curious about your marriage; has your mid-life crisis caused you to question your union? Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 20:31:26 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Mid-life crisis Barbara, You ask: >I am curious about your marriage; has your mid-life crisis caused you to >question your union? I'm definitely willing to answer this question. However, in answering this question on-list, I wonder at its relevence to the list as a whole. I want to ask the list members, and Walter in particular, about the inclusion of this potential *tangent* to listserv psychology. I see this as a potentially valuable psychological investigation that has *no* relation the the 'net, unless the 'net is to be considered as a contributing factor to mid-life crisis (such as the question: Does dialogue on the 'net enable greater stress during the period of life which results in mid-life crisis?). Before I answer, I would like to look at the formatting of the question. Excuse me Barbara for using *your* words to serve other purposes. As I mentioned, and has been also mentioned by numerous others now, _dialogue_ has a *sexual* aspect in addition to other aspects. Not only do dialogues have a *sexual* dance between those alternating between speaking and listening, dialogues are open in terms of message intent and content. For example: <> Does this statement mean: a) are you going to become available? b) where is your wife while you talk with us here? c) what can I expect from mid-life crisis from my partner? d) I want to learn about mid-life crisis. e) I'm interested -- if you are interested, then ... How can we understand messages in this environment where there are no context/background/visual clues to help us decode these (and more) potential messages from the words that appear on the screen? Enough of this and on with a response. Barbara, to answer this requires a bit of context (smile Jurek). Mid-life crisis -- biological, sociological, intellectual, and spiritual -- it's all there. My body isn't nearly as efficient. Greying hair (barely noticeable), added weight (15 lbs surplus to my desired weight), need for glasses (from none to bifocals in six months), heel spurs which put an end to a promising road-running career and dreams of the Boston Marathon, a slight loss of acuity of hearing, and unwanted hair (those extra strands that appear on the ear really annoy me -- I'm quick to deny them their right to life and remove them). Social changes? The family to start with. My oldest has left home and married and is now expecting her first child. My second child is earning her living in a large town four hours distant from home. My last is still at home for two more years (until he finishes secondary school). My pattern of living a belief in life-long learning has moved me into a shinking peer group. Others feel the difference between and retreat -- the fear of my intellect. I'm the resident expert on matters of psychology, philosophy, and the Internet (nobody is really interested in the historian, the linguist, the poet). Often I'm told of the Boeing 747's that fly over their heads when I find an opening to add to the conversation (especially at a gathering of teachers). There remains the spiritual changes. Before marriage, I was a free-spirit. I roamed the roads with guitar and backpack. I worked to meet needs as they became pressing. I wrote poetry, read philosophy. I was a city child who spent moments in appreciation of trees, hills, streams, and the sky. I loved the stars. Then I met my anima -- love at first sight. Biology and mystery blended well with the romantic notions of the universe as I knew/know them. Then began a period of change: pay attention well here as I will digress to include a few ideas from Pirsig's _Lila_. Pirsig speaks of his time within the asylum. His escape from the asylum was to learn how to *role-play*. He learned how to conform through role-playing so that the pleasure of the married state would stay and developed a *personality* which acted as husband, then teacher, then father. The role-playing leads to an almost "permanent stage personality". Pirsig then adds as he describes Phaedrus' situation: >It wasn't a happy solution, to always role-play with >people he had once been honest with. It made it >impossible to ever really share anything with them. >Now he was more isolated ... It was this isolation >that indirectly broke up his family and led to this >present life. (p 379) In many ways, this is the drama of most marriages. At what point, if ever, do the visions, dreams, and hopes of youth return to the fore? And if they return, if the role-playing did not bury the original actor, what result upon the union that led to this many-act play? Now to return. I have awakened from the drugged (much of it blissful) state of role-playing only to discover the poet and philosopher who cling to a hope of re-emergence into the light of consciousness. Their rebirth is a threat to the status quo, to the equilibrium of a union (who is this stranger I'm married to?). Yes, Barbara, my mid-life crisis has caused us both to question these bonds of marriage. I don't think any mid-life crisis can escape a complete re-evaluation of every atom of one's existence. Choices must be made (though not hasty, not without dialogue). With the choices there are losses as well as gains. What to gain and what to lose? Should I gain my soul at the cost of my love for a beautiful woman? Should I gain a renewed bonding at the expense of much that is the "core" of my being? Whew! That wasn't easy. I tend to verbalize a bit much at times. I hope that my approach to this answer gave it some relevance to the list as a whole and the nature and goals of our dialogue here on PSYBER-L. Please feel free to speak to me here (or off-line if it is more comfortable for you). Now where? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:01:46 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia >Robert wrote that <thesis and the dialogue of romance and sex. The authors of the dialogues >create an illusion that draws them in so intensely yet offers only a sterile >and empty reward, an illusion that heightens the isolation they are so >vigorously trying to escape using the 'net.>> I think he is right. Illusion >is a powerful, glittering drug that would tell us we are being fed while we >slowly starve to death. >Our commitment to authenticity and our ability to stand back and reflect on our >experience mitigates the danger of being caught up in illusion. Psyberia is >only as real as we are willing to be.... I would like to add a bit of descriptive tempering to this description. I believe that there is are two components of this addiction.. There is the psycho-motor addiction that can be see with kids playing video games over and over again.. and there is the satisfaction of a desire after great effort. The psycho-motor addiction is something that I'm aware of, but haven't spent a lot of time trying to come to understand, but when video games first came out, I was quite hooked.. The second part, much more insidious, is where an individual learns to put some part of their needs aside, then then finds a way to satisfy those needs, but at a great cost. This syndrome is what I precieve in ACOA's and "High Performers" in that they have become accustomed to putting off their needs for the eventual satisfaction. What sometimes happens however is that the quest for need becomes habitual, and then becomes a need in and of itself. Witness the millionaires that work themselves to death and get into more and more risky business situations, because that is all that they know how to do, to strive, to risk, despite their having achieved financial independence, or the runner that runs through injury in order to get the runners high.. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:01:00 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia In-Reply-To: <960424141051_381803521@emout10.mail.aol.com> Marie, I enjoyed your thoughtful post. You say: > Deficiencies in experience do not allow optimal opportunity for development, > and our modern world discourages certain types of expression. We are taught > to keep a tight lid on the shadow, to keep our animal instincts under > control. Men in our society learn that the expression of qualities > associated with the anima (feminine) are unacceptable; women are penalized > for expressing masculine qualities (animus). Jung believed that neglected > aspects of the personality remain unconscious, repressed, and therefore > retain their more primitive, undifferentiated characteristics. Repressed > archetypes do not, however, subside into peaceful quiescence; they slip the > bonds of conscious control in extreme, often pathological ways. This indeed does sound like an argument for the use of anonymity and flexibility of identity in cyberspace to be used to become conscious of our repressed selves. However you go on to make a useful point: > Is this not an argument for the use of Cyberspace as a playground , a kind of > experimental laboratory where alternative personalities can find expression? > Maybe -- if there is a conscious intention to explore other ways of being -- > if the experience provides an opportunity for learning, and if it is > integrated into the way that the self organizes meaning. I think this is > difficult to do by pretending to be someone or something else. Your qualifications here are important. I have an idea to set up a list which I think may meet the standards you propose. A list where one can post anonymously, but where membership is public. Rather like a masked ball. This could be easily done. One could have several characters interacting, one could enter the space as Sigmond Freud, or as a blade of grass. The meta discussion of what occurred _there_ could happen here, on Psyber-L. Thus there is an opportunity for learning and organising meaning. There is no duplicity or betrayal, as from the outset everyone knows the score. I'd like to discuss this idea. I have participated in something like this, and more discussion would be useful, and there might be a point where we would need to _do_ it before we really knew. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:41:12 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia If anyone wants to post anonymously, there are several anonymous remailers that I'm aware of that will let you do it. If there is enough interest, I'll go get the address, (I think that it's info@anon.penet.fi).. I fell into an anonymous remailer answering a message on a usenet group, and I've since developed an alias.. There are times when it might come in handy, but to date, I find that I'm really not that interested in rocking the world... (at least not just yet..) But on the other hand, there are several ethical delemna's (sp?) that I'd like to take by the horns and see where the ride takes me.. One involves a bit if colusion between two corporate giants to squash information about a bug in a chip.. a bug that I've signed a non-disclousure about.. Another involves the misuse of laws intended to bring technology here to the US but were instead used as a way to avoid corporate taxes on both sides of the Atlantic.. So if I ever get the urge to tilt at windmills.. it may be interesting.. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:58:42 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: Robert, Thanks for your honest post, and your trust in the people here and the medium. > I want to ask the list members, and Walter in particular, about the > inclusion of this potential *tangent* to listserv psychology. Three points: As we share our personal lives here we are using the medium in a psychological way. We are the objects of our own research. If you say at the end of this discussion what your experience of it was -- and if others share theirs then we are learning about this medium. Being here consciously. I am pleased that this list is doing this work, and not quoting the research _about_ the net. (That is OK too of course), but I'd be more wary of tangents in that direction, away from our experiential learning. There is an excellent list called Research that would cover that well. Secondly, the topic here is not well summed up in 'listserv psychology'. Experiential learning about the psyche in cyberspace, gives the same area of discussion a whole different slant, it makes your post more central. Third, in the description of the list it states :: Forming relationships of a collegial nature around our :: psychological, net interests is an important part of the work. We would do well to share our crisis in some way if we are to do that. I hope this list is a suitable venue for you and all of us to do that. I'd add this: Your sharing is giving you an authenticity here, a stronger virtual reality. Just how useful that is for your crisis I am not sure! You warned me recently of the dangers . . . I doubt it is dangerous. I would certainly encourage others to share fully with you, I think our gathering here has managed to do reasonably well when people have shared. I hope people feel free enough to come back and reflect on the process whatever it was. [snip, the story of the crisis] > Whew! That wasn't easy. I tend to verbalize a bit much at times. I found it good to listen to you. I had a mid life crisis and marriage end when I was 36. I am now 51, I am glad it then! > Now where? Lets listen . . . Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:37:20 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia The point you make about duplicity or betrayal speaks in a real way to a recent experience. For me it becomes a matter of the expectationbelief system of the participants in the engagement. The duplicity or betrayal seems to come out of the lack of conscious agreement of the parties to the *rules* of engagement. As I have been listening with this new way of framing called *Jung* and myth and conscious and unconsciousness within this Jung framing (and this is new for me because I have lived a very different framing), it seems to me the element of conscious *truthfulness* or one might call it authenticity and integrity that one brings to the moment is an important dynamic has everything to do with the alignment of the belief systems, at least it seems so in my recent experience. So the outcome of the participation of the participants with very different belief systems and life purpose framings leads into feelings of duplicity or betrayal when in fact if there had been conscious agreement around the underlying intention of the engagement the outcome would be very different. If we agree to the rules of engagement, and in the context of my understanding of the dialogue here, we agree that we come into engagement and often the purpose is to amp the shadow for each other so that we have an opportunity for integration, then a defined space for *playing* roles can be useful. In a way I live my life with this assumption, that we are playing this whether we openly define life in this way, that there is inner level cooperation, that in fact this is what we are doing here with and for each other and in my belief system the universe is feeding back *yes* to whatever intention we are holding conscious and unconsciously. So IMO we are all here to grow soul and are cooperating to do this. If the parties who are engaged don't agree on this assumption, then duplicity and betrayal will be the outcome, instead of learning. So Walter I think your experiment would be interesting to engage in from the aspect of open agreement to the *rules* then ISTM that paradoxically as people play roles there would be more *authenticity*. As as aside or the point here, I find the element of synchronicity which occurs in cyberspace the reason for my continued engagement. As I become more familiar with the language system of Jung and the meanings begin to emerge for me as a framing, then the opportunity for learning through a different system opens and the data emerges which then feeds my experience. The forum here then is bringing a different way of seeing to me which then informs my experience. Thus a line of a poem, or a dialogue held in juxtaposition to my daily experience, opens up revelations which enrich my life. gratefully, Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:40:56 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Tilting at windmills Wilbur < So if I ever get the urge to tilt at windmills.. it may be interesting.. Wilbur> Tilt away :-). It is my experience that given whatever one's sense of justice is, then one decides how one wants to engage in injustice. It then seems to be a question of action inaction and how that is just and unjust. Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:50:57 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis Walter you wrote in response to Robert Whew! That wasn't easy. I tend to verbalize a bit much at times. I found it good to listen to you. I had a mid life crisis and marriage end when I was 36. I am now 51, I am glad it then! > Now where? Lets listen . . . Walter> The element of risk in cyberspace comes to mind. Robert in my way of being you risked by answering the question to you (forgive my stumbling getting to know who says what here). There is a danger in a real sense which I have experienced in another venue, though I am assuming the meaning of danger here. This is around what can be an inadvertant (though I don't believe in inadvertant:-) comment which comes at one unawares. With this mind to mind and in my experience more intense engagement on-line very well intentioned people can get their shadow amped and not see it and throw a dart directly into an unguarded mindheart. I say this because I've *inadvertantly* done this to my regret. The danger is that for instance here we all agree and begin to experience a trust and begin to open and mind darts have the potential to fly. PS:Robert, your posting has informed your poetry for me. I'll go back and reread. Attending, Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:32:08 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Regina Garson Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis Hi, I guess some rambling thoughts... Since I am just coming through, surviving a mid-life crisis, I look at the whole time as perhaps more than any other in my life I learned to connect on a human and emotional level. Maybe the teen years would be the only other time when I think the emotions were so overwhelming. What does this have to do with the net, the connectedness if you allow it. Perhaps the net is just another avenue of the ever growing connectedness I sought out as I made the changes of this time in life. With this time in life there are looks back as friends pass away, and others become resigned to their lives, not because they are happy, but because somehow they have lost touch with that part of them self that seeks for ever new horizons. As I wrestle with that barely noticable gray hair, and pursue studies, (with mostly younger students) I realize the dreams are the most important thing that grew out of the crisis. Our whole family is involved to some degree with the net, and we all have different ideas of this cyber land. As far as the net replacing face to face relationships, no matter how cerebral, I do not think any words could ever replace how it feels to be close to my husband. Our marriage did survive the mid-life crisis, and as I learned to communicate and open up to him, he also did to me. I also learned to communicate with others. I don't think I have felt so romantic or open to expression since I was in my younger dating years. The net has inhanced our relationship, and not just because it is a shared interest. I participate in a poetry list, and there have at times been romantic and sensual poetic posts. As first I was a little taken back. Then I decided I too would enjoy being poetically romantic. When I took the time to put my feelings about him in words, I couldn't wait to be with him again. I think net communications like those in face to face will affect your life to the extent that you allow, want, or even seek it. If you get on with a group where everyone is having fantasy sex, flirting with strangers you may very well endanger your relationship, the same as you would if went to a singles bar looking for meaningful conversation. If an individual feels the need for that connectedness with someone outside their relationship, perhaps they should not blame it on the net, any more than you could blame a singles bar for a fling. There does need to be some selectiveness. When you walk down a busy street, you do not go in every store, just because it is there. If an individual becomes involved in cyber relationships of what ever sort, perhaps there was a need, whether admitted or not. In my net participation we write romantic snippets about the ones we love. Sharing, and taking the time to put these feelings into words has most definately enhanced my real life relationship. If we instead wrote romantic snippets about each other, there would be a different mesh of feelings involving the posts. half waking slumber faint smell of his musk - move close reaching touch Regina Garson Magic Stream http://fly.hiwaay.net/~garson/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:55:51 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: my apologies In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960421035710.00cacb68@monmouth.com> Hi, have you read anything about the nature of addictions? It sounds like you have a personality that needs to be addicted to something, first pot then the computer. Current research shows that people with a tendency to be addicted to substances or activities do it because it makes them feel better. In other words, without the addiction, one feels "bad" and when doing the activity, one feels "good". It's basically self-medicating, whether it's a substance like pot or an activity like computing. The only problem is when the activity or substance has a downside. The downside of pot is hotly debated; the downside of computing is that you don't have enough time/energy/motivation to develop human contact. The other downside of addicitive behavior is that the original problem of feeling "bad" is never dealt with; it's like taking aspirin to mask the pain but not dealing with what caused the pain in the first place. As long as you have your computer, you don't need to deal with whatever made you feel "bad" in the first place. Barbara (and hoping this doesn't sound judgmental, I don't intend for it to be) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:57:55 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: animus and anima In-Reply-To: <960421024340_518588793@emout19.mail.aol.com> Marie, thanks for your reply to Dolores; I also explained anima/animus to her, but you did a far superior job. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 10:02:53 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever.. In-Reply-To: <317a22b2.106574125@vesta.chch.planet.co.nz> Walter, How neat that you live in Christchurch! Do you happen to know Diane Madgin or her husband Bill (don't remember his last name, but he is a Sociology prof at the univerisity.) They are the friends we visited a year ago. Barbara (Boulder, CO) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 10:19:14 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: New girl in psyberspace In-Reply-To: <960421165213_195642879@emout13.mail.aol.com> Alyss, I have also had several bouts with depression, not really in mid-life but I have had a mid-life crisis since my twenties! Welcome back to the interactive world! Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:48:31 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Walter's "acting out" list idea Walter, in response to Marie you wrote: >>> I have an idea to set up a list which I think may meet the standards you propose. A list where one can post anonymously, but where membership is public. Rather like a masked ball. This could be easily done. One could have several characters interacting, one could enter the space as Sigmond Freud, or as a blade of grass. The meta discussion of what occurred _there_ could happen here, on Psyber-L. Thus there is an opportunity for learning and organising meaning. There is no duplicity or betrayal, as from the outset everyone knows the score. <<< Thank you, Walter, for sharing this grand idea. PSYBER-L being the meta discussion list, I may share some previous experiences with a list FNORD-L. First of all, I want to quibble about some Listserv feature in general: Every listserv requires the full name of a new subscriber, which is under- standable. I furnished my name without my Dr degree in order not to deter potential responders. Nonetheless, Listservs don't make use of it in the heading of msgs they deliver; in my case, they always give in quotes the UNIX-format entry of my "password file". On other lists, the quotes were even misread as me pretending to have a dr. Are there listserv experts to alter this or to give me the option to insert my subber's name entry instead. This having told, I'd like to share some of my exps with FNORD-L: It's like a masked ball, Rio-Carnival variety, in which the aggresive forms of communication - of all but the more subtle, sophisticated sorts - prevail. They tried to involve me in an overt subjugation game, tried me to provoke by flames of the anal sort and the like. I myself responded with more bizarre than overtly aggressive fantasies, told in a soft "belle indifference" tone signing as "Your Iron Bear (never in need to raise his voice) - entering as a male charac- ter then. Touched to respect the utter vulnerability of all the others onstage, I left - it also bored to have no equal to duel with. This was my exp report of a playground _in Marie's terms- for aggressive beha- viour. As you proposed, I submit it for meta discussion here. Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:49:59 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Tilting at windmills Comments: To: judithb@sbc1.com At 12:40 PM 4/25/96 GMT, you wrote: >Wilbur >< So if I ever get the urge to tilt at windmills.. it may be >interesting.. > >Wilbur> > >Tilt away :-). It is my experience that given whatever one's sense of justice >is, then one decides how one wants to engage in injustice. It then seems to >be a question of action inaction and how that is just and unjust. Maybe, but as I approach that middle of life I'm feeling a little slip of my belief that I can play by the rules and still make some sort of difference in the world... My youthful belief in the ethics of others is quietly draining away from me. I don't know that I'll loose my very high ethical standards, but it sure is disheartening when I see the that the Presidents and other Officers of major companies aren't quite as ethical as I had wished.. (actually, not as ethical as I would even require to respect them..) I was raised on the idea of compentancy being the route to the good life.. I came to understand that lifelong learning would eventually bring the crux of the meaning of life to me in such a way that I would be able to create a place where I was respected for my worth.. But being job-abolished in a major Insurance company specifically because I WAS competant enough to see how millions of dollars were being wasted sure makes for a lot of rethinking of the idea of ethics and hard work getting me ahead.. In other words, there is an old line "It the lie that brings us together", but being truthful to a fault, how to I bring people together without being able to lie? My current answer is to start a business from scratch, create new technology, and then build a corporate culture that doesn't have the same problems as the ones that I've seen (and I've seen quite a few). But I have to wonder about those that don't have the abilities that I've sacrificed my life to build. I've also wondered about just how my abilities have made me percieve the lack of ethics in situations.. Is it the abililities that I have that make me see the lack of ethics in a situation, or is it the lack of ability that makes the other's fail to see it, and continue to work in that environment? Is it the lack of those same abilities that makes the leaders of the corporate cultures fail to see the ethical dilemas? Does it in turn seem that I'm finding unethical behaviour where there is none? But then the question turns to why are the people at the top of the organization there if they don't have the abilities that I do? How can they manage something that they don't understand? Does that mean that I belong in their position? It seems that it's not what you know but who you know that is the means to getting to the top of an organization. And as a very competant person, I can develop the relationships at a whim, but what if that means being unethical? Having to sacrifice my ethics in order to maintain relationships with those at the top of the food chain? I don't wish to sacrifice my belief in ethics and justice in order to get ahead, since I feel that it's my ethics and judgement that makes me someone that deserves to get ahead.. quite a problem. Care to help me find some answers? Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:39:11 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Regina Garson Subject: Re: Tilting at windmills Previous postings, >At 12:40 PM 4/25/96 GMT, you wrote: >>Wilbur >>< So if I ever get the urge to tilt at windmills.. it may be >>interesting.. >> >>Wilbur> >> >>Tilt away :-). It is my experience that given whatever one's sense of justice >>is, then one decides how one wants to engage in injustice. It then seems to >>be a question of action inaction and how that is just and unjust. > >Maybe, but as I approach that middle of life I'm feeling a little slip of my >belief that I can play by the rules and still make some sort of difference >in the world... My youthful belief in the ethics of others is quietly >draining away from me. I don't know that I'll loose my very high ethical >standards, but it sure is disheartening when I see... Wilbur, On this I am sorry to say I agree with you. The older I get the more I agree with you. When I was still quite youthful and attending one of my first sales meetings, we were given instructions and I had the audasity to ask if they were legal. I thought there was some mistake. I got a very fast elbow in my side, and no answer from the speaker. It seems the president of the company was a non-practicing lawyer, who used his legal knowledge to push the edge and thus maximize his profits. It was all legal. At the time I thought he was quite an unusual man, and was awed by his power. He made and lost millions like some play checkers. I don't think he had any feelings as to what he was doing, and felt if he could make it legal, he could do it. And he did. I didn't stay long with that company. Instead I went on to other jobs, only to find more and more people who did the same thing, only in different ways. Of relevance to this discussion is how the various media were used in promoting all these schemes. Most of them could not have done what they were doing without technology and money, i.e. television, radio, telephone. Now in cyber land, I too in mid-life am pursuing a kinder, gentler profession. On the net, there are also many avenues of abuse, but at least the playing ground has been equaled. In this land, with a minimal investment, and a lot of hard work, the little guys can compete. It is mind boggling how, when the opportunity is there, how very many people are on the net doing some sort of something, or spreading some message that will in some way help others. In this leveled playing field, it would be interesting to know the numbers, as to how many sites that help compare in number to how many are the business nightmares we abhor. If big business is unnaturally tilted with the unfeeling, my experiences with the net have been that it is tilted with the feeling. What is even more wonderful is that the chances are much more equal. Sign me, "Already whacking at those windmills" Regina Garson Magic Stream http://fly.hiwaay.net/~garson/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:18:13 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: animus and anima In-Reply-To: <960423184614_279027905@emout12.mail.aol.com> Marie, I'm a Gemini too, which I think helps me deal with my T husband, who happens to be a Sagittarian. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:19:48 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: metaphor In-Reply-To: <960423184612_279027885@emout08.mail.aol.com> Marie, I didn't mention, but the salient point is that Gemini is a "masculine" sign, which modifies my Feeling preference on the Myers-Briggs, and my husband is a Sagittarian, which is a "feminine" sign, which modifies his Thinking preference on the MBTI. Sorry, I also subscribe to a "type" list and got confused. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:00:47 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Steven B. Hoath" Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia At 02:10 PM 4/24/96 -0400, Marie (moonasylum@aol.com) wrote: >Illusion is a powerful, glittering drug that would tell us we are being >fed while we slowly starve to death. Our commitment to authenticity >and our ability to stand back and reflect on our experience mitigates >the danger of being caught up in illusion. Psyberia is only as real as >we are willing to be.... The posting from which the above quote was drawn spoke strongly to me. Over the past year, I have been wrestling with major issues of cyberaddiction, illusion, reality, and psychological growth. I have become convinced on the basis of personal experience that interactions in cyberspace are a powerful force for psychological exploration and change. I am equally convinced that this is dangerous territory. Three aspects of my background will suffice to lay some groundwork for the issues I'm struggling with: First, I have believed for many years that perception is conditioned by training and experience. The development of new paradigms requires the willingness (and ability) to consider that what we believe is "real" is instead a persuasive "illusion". The geocentric worldview, for example, succumbed to the success of an alternative model (heliocentrism) despite the persuasive illusion of the former. That my body is mostly empty space is reality according to science...but questionable according to my immediate perception. From the standpoint of science, therefore, it is not clear what is reality and what is illusion. The point to be made here is that cyberspace...considered as a psychological structure or medium under transformation....may require new intellectual paradigms for successful modeling and exploration. The line between illusion and reality is *not* easy to draw and perception is as closely related to intellect as it is to sensation. Second, on a personal level, I am a recovering alcoholic...I am well acquainted with the dynamics of addiction and recovery. I understand intimately the meaning of personal powerlessness and I have seen at first hand the dark aspects and cunning patience of my Shadow self. I know the value of spiritual solutions and the transformative nature of authentic communication. For over 13 years, I have had no interest in drugs or alcohol...during this time I have grown in all aspects of my physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual life. Still, I consider myself to have a deeply addictive personality which knows little fear of crossing normative boundaries in the pursuit of its needs. I believe this aspect of myself can be channeled for light as well as for darkness...but the distinction is not always easy to see. Finally, over the past year, I have embarked for obscure reasons on a major exploration of cyberspace focusing particularly on the possibility of using online "chat" channels (IRC) to examine various aspects of my personality. My initial unfocused assault (I couldn't tell you the number of hours spent in this cybermedium) eventually found a focus in an intense cyberrelationship with another cybernaut...a female undergoing explosive changes in her own marriage and personal growth. We explored cyberspace together...we shared adventures...we merged our minds and imaginations...we made love as blobs. More than anything this experience has convinced me of the potential of this cybermedium for the development of intimacy and interpersonal contact. Without wishing to argue, I will state that I wholeheartedly disagree with those who say such electronic communication isn't "real" because it lacks face-to-face contact. On the contrary, the lack of physical contact and cues seems to amplify other channels (similar to the amplication of touch for the blind person) resulting in an interpersonal connection which is a highly intense, emotionally rewarding, and intimate. The possibilities for the expansion of love alone are staggering. My immediate problem relates back to my addictive tendencies and the difficulties in distinguishing illusion from reality in cyberspace. Thus far, my wife (whom I love) is bemusedly detached but generally unaware of my thoughts on the power of this medium and the true nature of my activities. (She seems to have adopted a wait and see attitude to this stage in my life.) My job is challenging and secure but will ultimately suffer from a continued unrestrained plunge into this limitless psychological space. My cyberrelationship has assumed a high priority over my time and thoughts...on the other hand, it has been one of the most illuminating and rewarding activities of my life. My feeling is that this cyberrelationship must be sorted out very quickly with respect to the issues of addiction, illusion, reality, and personal growth. The bottom line is I have no inclination to lead a life filled with deception. On the other hand, I do not wish to hurt anyone, including my cyberpartner and soulmate. I suspect that whatever happens will be painful for me... Any comments will be appreciated...private or in public. Steven **************************************************************** "It is better to try and idealize the real than to try and realize the ideal." ----A Chinese cookie fortune _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:49:32 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: my apologies At 08:55 AM 4/25/96 -0600, you wrote: >Hi, >have you read anything about the nature of addictions? Anything? At one time I was addicted to reading about addictions! >It sounds like you have a personality that needs to be addicted to something, >first pot then the computer. They also say that manic behaviour accompanies Genius! >Current research shows that people with a tendency to be addicted to >substances or activities do it because it makes them feel >better. Duh! >In other words, without the addiction, one feels "bad" and when >doing the activity, one feels "good". It's basically self-medicating, >whether it's a substance like pot or an activity like computing. We all have these tendencies, some more than others.. if we didn't we'd never do anything other than eat and sleep. Some have them more than others, and some have even learned to ride them as a means to an end.. At lot has to do with the basic belief structure of the individual, their tolerance to lack of immediate gradification, or the lack of that tolerance, how high the goals are they they attempt to achieve, and perhaps a bit of involvement from the Pancreous (sp?) >The only problem is when the activity or substance has a downside. The >downside of pot is hotly debated; the downside of computing is that you >don't have enough time/energy/motivation to develop human contact. The >other downside of addicitive behavior is that the original problem of >feeling "bad" is never dealt with; it's like taking aspirin to mask the >pain but not dealing with what caused the pain in the first place. Wasn't that what I said? So we are in agreement! >As long as you have your computer, you don't need to deal with whatever made >you feel "bad" in the first place. And suppose that there is no way to deal with whatever made you feel bad in the first place? Believe it or not, there are some things in life, some wounds from childhood, that can never be healed.. >Barbara (and hoping this doesn't sound judgmental, I don't intend for it >to be) OK, for the same of not being angry at having someone tell me back what I just said about addition, I'll assume that you weren't being judgemental.. I'll also assume that you're not going to be judgemental about what I'm about to say.. (type) As I see it, there are several factors that bring me to the obessive/compusive behaviour patterns that I have, (and they are mine, and NO you can't take them away from me!) *** warning *** As a warning, I cried when I wrote some of this. There are some hideous things described in the rest of this message. But it's some of the reality of my parents lives that I've been able to piece together. Don't read on if you aren't rather thick skinned.. *** warning *** They can be categorized as my parents teachings and my biology. On my parents teachings, they only taught me what they believed to be true, and they came to these beliefs as a result of their life experiences.. My father grew up in Baltimore, Maryland, in a family where his mother told him that because he was male that he would never amount to anything. (I witnessed her telling him this myself when I was 17). When he started acting up in school in 2nd grade, since he was failing tests, they sent him off for intelligence tests, and he came back as having an IQ too high to accuratly measure. The problem that he was experiencing was that he was being ignored at home, and bored at school, and needed something to channel his hungry mind. Instead he was subjected to a teacher that bored him and didn't like him. He was stuck with this same teacher year after year, and each year that he graduated, she graduated right along with him to the next grade. So he had figured out that if he failed, that at least he wouldn't have the same teacher the next year. His parents that couldn't be bothered with a "problem child". In order to solve the problem, his mother sent him off to Massanuttin Military academy (to teach him some discipline, no doubt, he was 7 years old.) On the first thanksgiving that came, he prepared to go home to be with his family, like all of the other kids, and was told that he wasn't welcome in his own home. He excelled in the Military Academy, (we won't go into the abuse that exists in military schools here.. That would take a novel) His older sister had her way paid through college, while he couldn't even borrow the money from his parents to go to college. (They were quite wealthy, my grandfather bought the bell for the local methodist church). So he eventually learned that the only thing that he could have that no one could take away from him was the skills that he had. (lots of family history about skills with technology deleted..) My father never saw home life, and learned to live inside a military academy. He ended up enlisted in the military, and earned several awards as the first person to qualify with various types of technology in the military. He flew in the Korean War, and he used to fly the East/West line "Keeping the world safe from Communism" where he was the electronics weapons officer on the plane. His security clearance was so high that he was unable to answer questions from a two star general since the general didn't have the proper clearance. He was also the nuclear weapons officer on the B52's that he used to fly in. (he would arm the nuclear warheads in the event of a nuclear mission, and they stood with standing orders that if they lost radio contact with the Strategic Air Command, they would drop their weapons on the target in Russia that was specified..) My father was SERIOUS military warrior. My mother's family owned the local Bar/Restruant/Hotel in a small town in Luxembourg, and they were quite prosperous, even had a maid. My grandfather on my mothers side was a master Rod Iron worker, one of only 4 in the country, ran his farm, complete with pigs etc, the hotel, the bar, and also worked a full 8 hour day at the local brewery maintaining the equipment. When the second world war started, the Nazi's eventually took everything away from my mother's family, and my mother witnessed several traumatic things.. The Nazi's took everything away from her and her family. My mother had pet ducks, which were killed and she was forced to serve as dinner to Nazi soldiers. The taking away of her father and later news that he was dead. Then the cold winter day, (the coldest in that area for 80 years) when the Nazi's called the entire town out for a meeting. They lined up the entire town, half on one side of the street, the other half on the other side of the street. They then shot everyone on one side of that street. Then what was left of the town was put into a forced march to a concentration camp. I'm not sure, be I believe that my mother was raped when she was at the concentration camp. (she was 9 at the time..) Her mother made some sort of deal with the camp commandant, and she was allowed to escape in a truck full of Christmas candy for the German soldiers.. (It was marzipan..) The truck convoy was forced off the road by an American air attack, and she was forced to walk back to her village, through Nazi Germany. When they got to the village, everyone met her with cries of "We thought you were dead!". Their home was occupied by Nazi's, and they needed a place to stay. No one had room, or food, so they ended up hiding in the Church. Some German officers pointed out that the church was a bad place to hide, since when the American bombers would bomb the town, they would target the biggest structure in the town, which was the church. She and her mother ended up hiding in a train tunnel while the Allied and German forces fought out what was later to become known as a "Battle of the Bulge". So my mother spent a month in a train tunnel, without food, and only melted snow for water, while the war went on outside the tunnel. They were hiding in the little indentations in the walls of the train tunnel, to avoid the bullets that sometimes flew into the tunnel. On occasion a solder from the Allies or the Germans would come into the tunnel. Look at them with his machine gun, and then leave. In the next indentation in the tunnel wall, a man had a broken shoulder which had become gangrenous. He died from that about a week later, with my mother listening to his moans. The gangrene continued, and my mother slowly starved with the smell of his rotting body. (as an interesting note, the muscles in my mother's own shoulder stopped growing when she was in high school, the same shoulder that the man had broken, you can see it when she tells the story, she ended up needing surgery) At the end of a month of waiting for the Allies to push past the tunnel, my grandmother finally realized that if they stayed in the tunnel that they would die, and she and my mother made a dash to the America command post. When they got there, the American's assumed that my mother and grandmother were Nazi's. When this finally got sorted out, my mother and grandmother when to stay with some relatives where the war was over. When they got there, they were told that they couldn't stay, since there wasn't enough food. So they went to other relatives, far from the war. A week later, my mother wanted to start back into regular life, to put the horrors behind her. She went to the school master and was told that since she hadn't started the school year with the other students, she wouldn't allowed to go to school until next year. So my mother got to spend the next few months with no schooling, no activities to divert her rememberance of the hell that she had been through. She learned that education was her responsibility after that, and also that she couldn't trust the educational establishment to teach her own child. My mother grew into a beautiful blonde, (Sharon Stone has nothing on my mother, except maybe 40 years..). The only thing that she really hated out of the war was the American Bombers.. (B52's) My father was a tail gunner in a B52 that flew over Ettelbruck during a 15 year anniversary celebration, (Ettelbruck is where the Patton Monument is). My father thought that he would go there to see the monument. He had made a deal with his mother that if he saved up half of the money for an Austin Healey sports car, that she would loan him the rest. On an enlisted man's salary, he managed to save half of the money. When he called his mother for the other half of the money, she denied ever making that deal with him. My father spent decided that no matter what the cost, he was going to save the rest of the money for the car. For the next year, he stayed in the barracks, and read books from the library. He read Voltaire, he read philosophy, he read everything. All the while hearing stories about this "beautiful blonde" in Ettelbruck from his buddy, and how this buddy was trying to get a date with this "beautiful blonde". At the end of the year, my father went to the Austin Healey dealer and paid CASH for the car. Drove to Ettelbruck and started dating this "beautiful blonde". They got married, and I was born their first son. Being unpreparied for family life, they suffered quite a bit. Eventually, they came to believe that they could make up for everything that they didn't have, every opportunity that had been denied them by sacrificing their own lives and staying together in order to be my parents. Of course, that means that I get to make up for every opportunity that they never had. My mother always told me that I was smart. Always remarked on how wonderfully smart I am. And when you are told something often enough, you believe it. And when you believe something, it becomes true. I believe that there are some contributing factors, like my mother spending a great deal of time stimulating my senses when I was an infant. She taught me to read before I went to school, and I've always been a very strong reader with very high comprehension as a result. Since a single word misunderstood could have been the difference between life and death for both my mother and my father, as well as my mother's fears about being misunderstood, (English isn't her native language..) Or perhaps it was just that she really like to be paid attention to, she taught me to hear each and every word that was spoken to me, and to be able to repeat it at will. The game went like this, Mom would say "What did I just say" when I would say, well you said this, and you said that, and she would say, " No, what did I say, WORD FOR WORD" and I would then be required to say back every word that she was able to remember. (that's both a blessing and a curse in everyday life..) I believe that my mother suffers from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, (she has physical manifestations). On the other hand, the one thing that she drove into me when I was growing up was that no one would ever be able to take away from me my knowledge and memories. She learned this by surviving the second world war and ending up with nothing but her memories. She also told me that what I learned was my responsibility, since she wasn't accepted in the school system after she escaped the war. My father may also suffer from post PTSS, but he's more violent and agressive, and when I've managed to get behind the "Warrior" that dominates his personality, I find the scared 7 year old child sent away to military school. My father taught me about the belief in an idea, the prolonged striving for an ideal, no matter what the sacrifice. He taught me that there isn't any thing that I can't do, all I have to do is set my mind to it. He learned this from growing up in a military academy. He learned the "Warrior" spirit. So there are my parents teachings .. On the biological side, my families has a natural propensity for hand dexterity, hence the master craftman title of my mother's father, and my father's father being involved in electronics and winning the strongest hands in LaCrosse national competition, a sport noted for it's requirement of hand strength. I believe that I have the same hand strength and dexterity, as I used to be a professional arm wrestler, and played the flute for serveral years, (was pushed to turn pro by several people). I believe that the hands are quite involved in the intellect. (Hence the terms, "grasp and idea" etc.) Like the intelligence and ability to focus that shows itself all through my family's history. That ability to focus is what I believe is a relection of "addictive tendencies". So it's a natural side effect of being who I am that gives me these abilities, which some have come to call addictive tendencies. But on the other hand, I'm on the inside, and I know that in order to understand something, you have to obsess about the a field of knowledge until you have fully digested the meanings and structures. So are those the components that make up an addictive personality? Judging from the outside, people have often called these same tendency's addictive. I call them me. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:26:49 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Re: masked ball Walter, Your idea of a masked ball list is intruiging; I must admit I have amused myself wondering what an interaction between Sigmund Freud and a blade of grass would be like! <> <> I would like to hear more about what you have in mind. I can envision possibilities for how such a masked ball might work, but I'm not sure about disscussion on Psyber-L. How would we maintain anonymity? Or would we? Might this be an occasional event -- or ongoing? I would not like to see the list move too far away from where it is now; I am just learning to be at home here. I am definitely interested. Tell me more! Marie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:39:07 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Me, Myself, I Barbara sorry Imeant to write and thankyou for your explanation. Combined with Maries It made everything perfectly clear for me. Thanks again. I have loved in cyberspace the way I was never able to in real life. I never trusted anybody enough in real life with who I really am, to believe that the real me could be loved. For me the mask I wear is not in cyberspace but in *real* life. I can hide behind what I outwardly appear to be in life. I never give anything away. I can manipulate situations by appearing to be exactly what I want to convey. I have acted like a bimbo more times than I care to remember or am proud to admit in order to manipulate the world around me. (for world read men). I am not who I appear to be but what I wish you to see me as. (this probably shows a complete lack of self respect but it gets results) There is no pretence here for me. I am not judged on the way I look..I am not intimidated by face to face contact. I am the sum of my words. My Thespian skills are more attuned to real life deception. You have no faces. You are the essence of your personalities, you are your egos and your fears and your vulnerabilities. Each mailing and you uncover a little more about yourselves. Who you really are, less of how you wish to appear. We all slowly drop our masks here and reveal a little more about ourselves. Our role play is in our day to day life. I fell in love in cyberspace, with a man who I have never met nor am ever likely to. I dont know if he takes sugar in his coffee, or if he snores but I know how he really feels about himself. I dont know what it is to hold his hand in mine, but I have held his thoughts and entwined them with mine.. I havent played in his arms but I have played in his imagination and I have said words to him that in real life have an entirely different meaning. When we say in real life I love you.. then we encompass aspects of reality that dont exist in cyberspace. It took me a long time to work out that those words mean something entirely different here.. I dont love the *man*..I have never seen him..I dont suppose that in real life we would be particularly compatible. The words I love you mean something different here. I love him..*you* all that is part of you, the rest of the world never sees. I love all that is you, that is locked away and rarely shown. The complete essence of the man. The core of his being..not the peripheral mask that he wears through life. It is a different sort of love, but none the less deep, none the less valid, and none the less painfull. It is no illusion..but it is not a sustainable reality. The man I love has another life, one where I cannot enter and there he wears the mask of his own choosing. He cannot so easily hide behind it here...which is strange for you would have thought the reverse to be true. I love him for knowing who I really am. Ultimatly..in cyberspace there is no pretence. You cannot run from who you truly are here. It makes itself known. That is when you can look into the mirror of your mind and truly know yourself. Oh by the way Fred..where are you.. got your last cryptic priv email..waiting for a post along the same lines. (If you dare) And if I owe anybody an email can they please remind me because I have got a bit behind. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:12:26 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia >interpersonal contact. Without wishing to argue, I will state that I >wholeheartedly disagree with those who say such electronic communication >isn't "real" because it lacks face-to-face contact. On the contrary, the >lack of physical contact and cues seems to amplify other channels (similar >to the amplication of touch for the blind person) resulting in an >interpersonal connection which is a highly intense, emotionally rewarding, >and intimate. The possibilities for the expansion of love alone are staggering. But it's not "real" it's not something that can be ultimatly fullfilling, as you haven't come to realize yet. Love? Is it love when you don't know the face of the other person? Is it love when you are limited to about 20 wpm on an IRC? Is it "Love" when you can't even control the font that the other person sees? Is it "Love" when the only mechanism of communcation is type written text on a computer screen? I vote no! Sure, the fantasy can appear real, but it's just a fantasy, take phone sex as an example. Addicting, yes.. but ultimatly fulfilling, no! Can you make a child from Netsex? Can you really come to understand the other individual as you would if you live with them? No! It's an interesting diversion, and depending on your ability to immerse yourself in typing, may indeed seem real, but it's not as real as a face to face relationship. It's not as real as making a child with someone. It's not as real as "Real Life". >My immediate problem relates back to my addictive tendencies and the >difficulties in distinguishing illusion from reality in cyberspace. Thus >far, my wife (whom I love) is bemusedly detached but generally unaware of my >thoughts on the power of this medium and the true nature of my activities. >(She seems to have adopted a wait and see attitude to this stage in my >life.) My job is challenging and secure but will ultimately suffer from a >continued unrestrained plunge into this limitless psychological space. My >cyberrelationship has assumed a high priority over my time and thoughts...on >the other hand, it has been one of the most illuminating and rewarding >activities of my life. My feeling is that this cyberrelationship must be >sorted out very quickly with respect to the issues of addiction, illusion, >reality, and personal growth. The bottom line is I have no inclination to >lead a life filled with deception. But you are, in a sense, already doing that. You claim that you have no control over how your dark side crosses the lines, but indeed, you are on the only one in control. No one else has the control. >On the other hand, I do not wish to hurt anyone, including my cyberpartner >and soulmate. Is the soulmate the one that you are married to? If not, then you are decieving yourself and not living up to the vows that you probably made when you got married. >I suspect that whatever happens will be painful for me... I suspect that you are already in pain, and will probably experience some more.. >Any comments will be appreciated...private or in public. Steven, I'm sorry that what I say may seem harsh, (actually, more accuratly, what I type..) but the emotional truth is that you have an involvement with a woman outside your marriage, and that is something that you'll have to deal with at some point, or your marriage will fail. It's quite possible that your marriage is already failing, but it's also quite possible that you are avoiding your personal responsibilties to your marriage and using NetSex as a temporary drug/replacement for those things that you aren't getting out of your marriage. Ultimately, however the question and the truth boils down to this question, how fulfilled as a man will you be if you don't have real sex and just have cyber sex? If the answer is that you would be unfulfilled with a steady diet of cyber sex only, then CyberSex isn't real. >**************************************************************** >"It is better to try and idealize the real than to try and realize the ideal." hmmm.. perhaps you need to mediatate on this fortune! Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:34:18 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Re: midlife crisis Robert, I appreciate the risk you took in sharing yourself so openly. Your personal story may not, in itself, be directly relevant to the 'net, but some of your words led me to a train of thought that I think may speak to our endeavor here. <> We make choices all our lives, some more consciously than others, all closing as many doors as they open. The choices I made in all my yesterdays shape who I am today, and sculpted the life I lead. I chose what roles to play, who I invested myself in, where I would stay, and when I would leave. I chose who I would be. Since my life has not been a happy one, I would rather not face my responsibility for the flow of the years, but if I disown the role of director in my past, I cannot claim it now -- and I believe that it is within my power to manifest change, both in myself and in the circumstances of my life. Midlife is crisis, I think, because we face a diminishing number of days, and become acutely aware of our mortality. There is not all the time in the world. We begin to hear the small, lonely voices of all the people we did not choose to be -- the children who were never fed, never heard, never held -- the aspects of self we denied in the service of expediancy or perceived need -- the voices of the soul. Mark Freeman -- <> -- claims that personal transformation involves the loss of the self we believed ourself to be, a loss that feels like death and triggers intense waves of fear and grief that make it seem safer to stay as we were. Only a very powerful need could overcome such primal resistance. Only the plaintive cry of the long-denied children of our soul... Others in our life also fear change in us, especially if it threatens the world we have created together. It is a life-shaking matter, the death of a marriage; there is no way to become the new self we long to be without letting go of the self we once were, without hurting the other who does not want to change. Or is there? Perhaps here is a place to test the waters, to begin to express our inner needs and reveal the many facets of our being, to find out how it feels to bring this new self to life and to reflect on how it would feel to silence it again. Or perhaps -- here is a place where unmet needs can be met sufficiently to let us keep our outside world intact. I do not envy you this choice, Robert. Marie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:53:00 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Me, Myself, I I wanted to say that I think that I've found a way to deal with the problems of cyber involvement.. I found a girl that wasn't a cyber virgin and when I send out email's I often send her a copy. (like this message) We have a deal that she can read any of my email anytime she want's.. That way I don't have to worry about getting lead somewhere where I can't communcate it to her, since she and I often discuss what is going on in CyberSpace.. and I'm open enough to her that I don't have to worry about involvement beyound what is comfortable for myself. I'd also like to say that there is a part of me that is quite real and isn't expressed here in Cyberspace.. my behaviour in "real life" is quite different from the personna that I take on here.. I would say that is primarily because I have to spend more time thinking about what I want to say in Cyberspace because of the more restricted bandwidth. It's takes quite a while to say something, but since I spend so much time saying it and working out what I want to say, often the depth of what I want to say goes beyound my original intentions... I think that is one of the general characteristics of writing, with the ability to review, rewrite, etc. It also occurs to me that the lack of context from real life provides quite a hinderance, along with the limited bandwidth of finger to keyboard. There is another story that I'd like to mention to perhaps show where I don't have much difficulty in understanding that this reality isn't real. Perhaps because I write software I'm immune, since I see and understand the underlying technology, rather then percieving this "Cyberspace" as some sort of magic. I've been doing Judo since I'm seven years old. I think that I'm quite good at it, and considering the competative level that I've reached, there are some that would agree with me. I learned in Judo that it's OK to be thrown, since by being thrown, in turn, I learn how to throw. So I didn't have any problem getting thrown. (something that most people have a big problem with..) From the age of 16 to the age of 24 I took a hiatus from practicing Judo, so I had to reteach my body things that it already knew. Sometimes it would remember the action directly and I'd throw my opponent, but often I just would end up flying in the air. As a part of my training, I starting practicing with the "Sensei" (teacher) a sixty something year old Japanese Immigrant who has beautiful technique, (and was also the Olympic coach). Being 24, and not afraid of being thrown, I would fly around quite a bit. Yani, (Sensei), has a beautiful technique that is known as a foot sweep. Wanting to learn this throw, I would watch him do that throw to others, and also watch him do it to me. Each time he would sweep it would seem that I would just lift off the ground, level off at about 5 feet, and then float down to crash on the ground. Since I could fall without injury, I would engage in this strange form of flight about 15 times a night once or twice a week for about 2 years. After that many flights, I would be able to tell when they were coming, but I couldn't stop the technique, and I would still fly quite regularly. I was even able to use this technique on other players, but I still couldn't stop being thrown by Yani's foot sweeps. I'd watch in fascination as he would start the throw, and then I would struggle to avoid it, but it never made any difference, I'd fly, slap the mat, and then bow in respect at having been throw once again. One day I was making it a bit harder for Yani to throw me, or perhaps he wanted to show me what I was doing wrong, but for some reason, while I was watching his feet while he set me up for a foot sweep, he rattled my Gi in the line of site between my eyes and his feet. The breaking up of visual connection to his feet confused me for just an instant, and he threw me once again. But I learned something, I learned that I didn't need to look at him to "feel" him throwing me, since depite my visual confusion, I couldn't see myself being thrown, but I would still feel myself being thrown. All of a sudden I realized that perhaps my eyes were getting in the way of my technique. Perhaps the visual reality was not "real" and I was preoccupied by the visual reality and getting thrown as a result. I would recall situations as a child competing at the International level in Judo where I wasn't able to follow the stuggle in my "Mind's eye" anymore and just gave myself over to the physical struggle, often to good effect. I decided to study the timing of what I had realized, and it works out something like this.. the eyes take about 0.1 seconds to form an image. That image in turn generates an understanding in the brain, which then takes about 0.2 seconds to generate a physical response. Yani's foot sweep is at the level of a conditioned reflex, and in a video tape of him doing the throw, literally from one frame to the next he turns and engages in the throw, so he certainly is able to accomplish the engagement of the throw in less than 0.3 seconds. As a result, I would find myself struggling to respond to what I had seen as he was throwing me, seeing myself being thrown all the way down. I stopped watching with my eyes and starting feeling with my hands and body, and eventually became able to stop Yani from throwing me with his foot sweep. The give away for Yani is that when he's not going to throw you, he feels like a ton of bricks, but when he can't be felt anymore, that's when he is going to throw you, so watch out. So I have a very concrete experience that reality isn't "real". That conciousness isn't "reality" but a very good representation of reality that likes to believe is "real". That give and take on a physical level is a quite different reality from the give and take in the business world, or in Cyberspace. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 00:56:29 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Wilber..jung..love etc etc etc > >But it's not "real" it's not something that can be ultimatly fullfilling, as >you haven't come to realize yet. Love? Is it love when you don't know the >face of the other person? Is it love when you are limited to about 20 wpm >on an IRC? Is it "Love" when you can't even control the font that the other >person sees? Is it "Love" when the only mechanism of communcation is type >written text on a computer screen? I vote no! Course its love Wilbur.. define love for me before you start deciding whether or not in can exist in an electronicly enhanced enviroment. >Sure, the fantasy can appear real, but it's just a fantasy, take phone sex >as an example. Addicting, yes.. but ultimatly fulfilling, no! Can you make >a child from Netsex? Can you really come to understand the other individual >as you would if you live with them? No! It's an interesting diversion, and >depending on your ability to immerse yourself in typing, may indeed seem >real, but it's not as real as a face to face relationship. It's not as real >as making a child with someone. It's not as real as "Real Life". Wilbur..I'd really hate to accuse you of confusing sex with love here. Can you understand the other individual as you would if you live with them. Yes..more so even. Any idiot can make a child mores the pity..love isnt always involved in that act either. > > >But you are, in a sense, already doing that. You claim that you have no >control over how your dark side crosses the lines, but indeed, you are on >the only one in control. No one else has the control. > >>On the other hand, I do not wish to hurt anyone, including my cyberpartner >>and soulmate. > >Is the soulmate the one that you are married to? If not, then you are >decieving yourself and not living up to the vows that you probably made when >you got married. Why decieving himself? > >>I suspect that whatever happens will be painful for me... > >I suspect that you are already in pain, and will probably experience some more.. > >I suspect Wilbur your right > >Steven, > >I'm sorry that what I say may seem harsh, (actually, more accuratly, what I >type..) but the emotional truth is that you have an involvement with a woman >outside your marriage, and that is something that you'll have to deal with >at some point, or your marriage will fail. It's quite possible that your >marriage is already failing, but it's also quite possible that you are >avoiding your personal responsibilties to your marriage and using NetSex as >a temporary drug/replacement for those things that you aren't getting out of >your marriage. I dont remember him citing netsex as the motivating force behind the relationship Wilbur. Any relationship based soley on sex/netsex is doomed to failure eventually. > >Ultimately, however the question and the truth boils down to this question, >how fulfilled as a man will you be if you don't have real sex and just have >cyber sex? If the answer is that you would be unfulfilled with a steady >diet of cyber sex only, then CyberSex isn't real. Again, your basing your hypothesises on his relationship being only carnal in nature. I suspect Wilbur your short of a few romantic bones. Throughout history love has been glorified in text..with the written word. We create words from love..why not love from words. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:38:59 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever.. In-Reply-To: Barbara, > Walter, > How neat that you live in Christchurch! Do you happen to know Diane > Madgin or her husband Bill (don't remember his last name, but he is a > Sociology prof at the univerisity.) They are the friends we visited a > year ago. > Barbara (Boulder, CO) I do! I expect you mean Bill Willmot. I don't know them well but taught his daughter briefly years ago. Also my son did sociology and will recall him well. Do you know them well? Walter Sensing the rl world creeping in . . . _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:39:04 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Tilting at windmills In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960425174959.00b174a8@monmouth.com> Wilbur, [Wrote this before reading your later *** warning signs *** post. Makes this sound a little lame. Will post as is anyway.] > In other words, there is an old line "It the lie that brings us together", > but being truthful to a fault, how to I bring people together without being > able to lie? My current answer is to start a business from scratch, create > new technology, and then build a corporate culture that doesn't have the > same problems as the ones that I've seen (and I've seen quite a few). I recall our discussions about the devil in us all. All my life I have created projects that were to overcome the problems of the dominant culture. A commune in the late 60s. (it still exists and I am still involved after a 25 year absence) one group is now taking another group to court over the assets! Argg! I am part of the one being taken, ah well . . . Another project was an alternative school. I taught there during its first four years. It recently closed after 20 years and I am pleased, it had a devil in it too! Most recent, and painful is that I set up a psychotherapy centre with my closest friends, after three years or so we fell out and I feel cheated of the friendships, betrayed. I am still coming to terms with that one, very difficult. Since then I have a very private private practice, slowly building up a new collegial network and having just opened a new group room, as a sole owner! I say all this in response to your brave plans to form a new culture. Tilting at windmills? I hope not, you see despite my struggles with the counter-cultural projects in my life I have not become cynical. I have learnt about myself and how to do this through each project. I am not just repeating a cycle. However I do not know clearly how to proceed. This Psybernet project has now been on the go for 3 yrs. Here too we have had our struggles. For all that, I hope to make a niche for professional work on-line, in the context of an ethical , nurturing , vigorous culture. "Make" is probably the wrong verb, discover? Why here? I think there was an element of escape into cyberspace as my rl collegial links were at a low. This did not affect my psychotherapy practice as I have been full to capacity most of the time. Since then I have formed new & excellent collegial relationships, and am enjoying the collaborative work around running groups and peer supervision etc. This has taken a leap forward just as this list has in the last few months. I do ask: why here? I don't think it is addiction for me. I have the sense of being an explorer, and a builder in something new. I simply have no choice! The pull to be present at the dawning of this newness is overwhelming. The culture, relationships, professionalism, economics are all taking wild new leaps, I want to be here, especially with an eye to what happens to psyche. So as I listen to you speak of ethics and building a new corporate culture around a new technology I feel a kinship in our struggles. The technology I have is a half built beta approach to the psyche in cyberspace. Hardly the killer app! Yet I want to find ways of resourcing this project and myself, it needs that, I need that. I really do hope we are not tilting at windmills (I nearly wrote windows!) You know, discussing money is a taboo. Could it be that money is today what sex was in freud's day? No, both topics were taboo then, as they are now (unless we objectify and divorce our selves from them, in which case they fly to the fore in our culture.) One of the unwritten inventions made by freud IMO, is that he could charge a fee for listening and talking, that it was about sex may have been secondary. The material basis for psychoanalysis as a marxist might say. I think that as we explore the psyche in cyberspace, culture in cyberspace, to look at the info-nomics is important. Just as it is important to recall that we have rl bodies and lives as we enter into this imaginal realm. Wilbur, you conclude: > I don't wish to sacrifice my belief in ethics and justice in order to get > ahead, since I feel that it's my ethics and judgement that makes me someone > that deserves to get ahead.. quite a problem. Care to help me find some > answers? I don't doubt your ethics as I listen to you. I have a sense that the devil (archetype) lives amongst us, and will do so in any organisation or group we form. I think judith put this well in her post :: Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis :: From: Judith Buerkel :: Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:50:57 GMT >>> The danger is that for instance here we all agree and begin to experience a trust and begin to open and mind darts have the potential to fly. <<< She does not believe in the inadvertent, ie something moves us to throw those darts! The evil that lurks in MS could as easily lurk here or in any corporation we intentionally set up. It comes up inadvertently, archetypically. Somehow it means coming to terms with the Shadow. Our shadow. My shadow. Starting with this premise what an organisation we could build (discover)! Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:40:32 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: masked ball In-Reply-To: <960425162647_280571852@emout17.mail.aol.com> Marie and all, > Might this be an occasional event -- or ongoing? I would not like to see > the list move too far away from where it is now; I am just learning to be at > home here. Yes, let us settle in. The words "masked ball" (what is the mask, what is the face?) seem to reflect the focus of our gathering at this point. I may have done better to mention only the words rather than a project, it comes from my penchant for us to write about what we know from experience. That is certainly happening now. Containing all that we are doing, here and now, in this list is important and I would not move a way from that, or create a fuzziness of boundaries in Psyber-L as a holding place. For all that this list remains a starting point to other Psyber activities. Occasional events. I think the time and way to do that will *emerge*. One of the events in the making, and has been worked on quietly in this list since before Christmas last year is the Dream Game. It will happen. I want that to build our project not dissipate it. I think that can be done. While on this most wonderful theme of what is true love and what is real: The zen master tells the student: If you say this stick is real, I will hit you with it. If you say this stick is not real, I will hit you with it. While browsing the archives looking for the start of our dream game discussions, I found a poem from Charles that might serve as an answer to the koan: :: I'm not sure how much of this is Rumi, but it started from a verse :: of his in Arberry or Nicholson, and I worked it a bit: :: I am a bird of the garden beyond time, :: locked for a moment into this cage of ribs. My more prosaic answer might be: It is a stick! Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 20:55:24 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Jung and Gestalt at the masked ball Hi my compartriots of Psyberia, MT>Jung believed that neglected MT>aspects of the personality remain unconscious, repressed, and therefore MT>retain their more primitive, undifferentiated characteristics. Repressed MT>archetypes do not, however, subside into peaceful quiescence; they slip the MT>bonds of conscious control in extreme, often pathological ways. Marie's words here give cause for Walter's proposed experiment *the masked ball*. Creating that *safe* anonymous environment with players who have already established a sense of trust amongst each other, can only heighten what many have already said has been a positive experience. And as Marie points out below, we have an "experimental" stage where we can role-play in a host of alternative personalities. MT>Is this not an argument for the use of Cyberspace as a playground , a kind of MT>experimental laboratory where alternative personalities can find expression? And as she notes, we can't but help to be authentic (even if we try the role of opposite gender) because of the context in which we have lived and thought. Self-discovery is the goal. MT> If, on the other hand, I choose to find out how it feels to express myself MT>(my authentic self) in a more expansive way, without concern for artificial MT>designations MT> I can escape MT>the tyranny of labels and root my experience in a personally meaningful MT>context. I would think that one could successfully pull off such a feat of legerdemain through the use of "gestalt-like" approaches to alternative personality role-playing (the lake speaks with the boat and the island and the beach and the tree ...). Like the native culture, we could find our spirit animal and interact on such a basis. The variations are endless, what Marie terms as <> -- In the end, all the variations are summed up in the totality of one's psyche. >This is a place where we can see ourselves as others >see us, where we can become more conscious of the way we present ourselves to >the world, where we can expand our repetoire of interactional styles. We >facilitate that process for each other, directly (through our written >responses) and indirectly (by who and what we respond to, and how). Here, the "blind-self" becomes smaller through the reflections of ourselves that we see in the "others". MT>Robert wrote that <thesis and the dialogue of romance and sex. The authors of the dialogues MT>create an illusion that draws them in so intensely yet offers only a sterile MT>and empty reward, an illusion that heightens the isolation they are so MT>vigorously trying to escape using the 'net.>> I think he is right. Illusion MT>is a powerful, glittering drug that would tell us we are being fed while we MT>slowly starve to death. Our commitment to authenticity and our ability to MT>stand back and reflect on our experience mitigates the danger of being caught MT>up in illusion. Psyberia is only as real as we are willing to be.... As I prepare these words for your ears, I am truly surprised at the level of authenticity that has surfaced in just the past week. I have been paricipating on listservs for five years (at least) without ever having seen this level of trust displayed. It seems that the members of Psyberia have decided that this cyber-home is real--therefore, they are real and must then present themselves as real people, not just cyber-ghosts. Walter, your suggestion <> is, in my opinion, vital to the activity in the "masked ball". We could use each others insight (even to the point of hearing our own voices reflect subconscious thought). I don't think we would compromise the anonymity of the characters at the "masked ball". I think it would be wise to use Wilbur's suggestion of an *anonymous re-mailer*. A number of us would definitely peek to see *who* is *really* speaking--a reflex that may harm the dialogue itself. Walter, sign me up for the playground. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:10:25 +0200 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: element of synchronicity Judith to Walter, among other things, most of which I agree with: >>> As as aside or the point here, I find the element of synchronicity which occurs in cyberspace the reason for my continued engagement. <<< Sync in which sense ?? If it's short response time, then please enjoy being embedded in the vast American e-mail community, in which local times differ at most by some hours. Here in Europe, we've got to live with a time difference of 8 hrs from, say, Ohio; so there must be other motives for us to engage, As I happen to write on e-mail immediacy models, I'd like to read about the meaning of the word 'synchronicity' in *your* context. All the best, Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 07:39:19 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: Me, Myself, I Wilbur you stir some thoughts about the kinesthetic and energy and space and what this means here with your description of your *physicalenergetic* experience for me. These are my strong senses and it has been fascinating to experience connection on-line. In my first class on-line there were 35 of us plus instructors and huge amounts of data flying across my screen and after2 weeks my mind circuits blew, literally, and I went into disassociation for about a week. Luckily I had a sense of what was happening however what I learned out of it was that the way I *know* a person is by sensing their energy field and I couldn't organize the data in relation to the person in the on-line environment and the mind activity got to critical mass and all my meaning schemes were severed. (Jack Mezirow says this is when transformational learning occurs BTW) As I reflected on the experience and finally got to the knowing I realized that I was holding a limitation which was that I couldn't read the fields of the participants because of the idea of distance. When I readjusted and reminded myself there is no space.I had experimented with the idea years before but neglected to realize the implications in my maiden voyage. When I got that piece of knowing I found immediately I could identify the individuals energetically and thus could process the huge amount of data going across my screen. The learning extended into learning style work around Kolb and the converger/diverger etc and fairly soon I had formulated a model which allowed me to take in the plankton here and let the data do its own thing. And when something emerged it emerged. Research says kinesthetics make up about 23% of the population, don't have much of an idea about what that would translate to on-line, but it makes a difference in how I engage after expanding my *spacial* limits. judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 04:00:21 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Susan Z. Swan" Subject: coming out of a cave Dear Psyberians--How good to be back around the kitchen table with you again. A week away has felt long, even though I've only known you for such a short time. Beauty and the Beast have found wholeness within themselves, which enabled then to reach out to one another in full intimacy--Beast has reconcilled with his anima, Beauty with her animus, and they are both transformed as a result. Fortunately they let me capture their journey on paper and retell their story at a conference--hopefully they will let me finetune the manuscript for another telling (the ugly cyclops of "publish or perish" threatens me otherwise). I have just spent about 5 hours moving through a weeks worth of e-mail and what treasures awaited me--small delights (seeing my old e-mail address with Steve Hoath's postings--Univ. of Cincinnati [Ohio, USA] was home the past few years; reading Pixy's reference to Burkean dramatism, which I have been swimming in for weeks in doing my writing on Beauty/Beast) and wonderful reaffirmations of trust and vulnerability (oh, my, what honor Laurel, Wilbur, Marie, Robert, and Fred have done us all this week in their sharing of themselves so deeply--what a change in tone the interaction between Laurel and Fred brought too--thank you all for your gifts of self/soul). The process of reading through this has brought an interesting awareness of the experience, which I thought I might offer up--if I seem wandery, please bear with me--I'm particularly fragile tonight and need the comfort of your conversation and company. My in-box was a miscellany of postings from Psyberfolk, a net Research group, several domestic abuse lists, a few personal notes--the reading then blended in pastiche many threads. The counterpoint of the threads on mindsharing and the lure of relationships on the net with postings from rape and battering survivors/counselors was quite disorienting at times--each source had elements of rawness, but of such different qualities. The psyber postings were a refuge, a place of safety. What beauty in the poetry (including the lyricism of the prose)--ah, Robert "spinning webs from bits of incandescent light," and Mila's "joy flash" of understanding --Laurel's mindsharing especially touched me--to see that "rare and precious thing that can be felt here...to enable a communion, so intense, so in harmony at times, a perfect dance of souls"--and Fred's "land of pure thought born of real people," which would, from Walter, "allow us to get a closer glimpse of the nature of the beauty and the beast that we are"--the excursions into Jungian thought (just as I was trying to work this out for Beauty/Beast!). The strong connection with the conversation, the joy in the words and ideas, carried with it great pain, however. Last night (in rl ?) ended a long term relationship--we were at a distance and e-mail wasn't enough for him, it wasn't vibrant or vital, it was cold and sterile and distant. How could this be--for me our e-mail was a place t share my heart and soul, to explore the depths of my feelings, to play with new ways to look at things, to problem solve issues of the relationship. It was my element, playing with words, which have been my joy since earliest memory. But not so for him--"don't send me anything longer than 2 pages," he said. How could I capture the complexity of anything in 2 screens? Worse yet, he saw most everything I said as condescending, born of intellectual snobery --NO!!! NO!! NO!! the anguish of such an accusation when what I offered was the sincerest, richest, deepest parts of my self (ah, Laurel, I realize here that your shots into the "dark" re: big words and academic jargon were like an arrow into my heart, here in the one place which seemed safe to be me, to play with the words that are so much a part of me, to expand my universes of discourse through the marvelous wordplay of others, to revel in the words/ideas/constructions of others, even here the tower was being assailed and the walls breached--perhaps I saw his face/voice projected onto yours and jumped to defend the core of me that was being now doubly attacked--my apologies for snarling). I realize too the relative safety of vulnerability on this medium--no face to lose if I am overhelmed by emotions. F2F doesn't afford that luxury--I wept in front of a class today (what cruel syncronicity gave me the topic of lifecycles of intimate relationships to cover today--and I was dumb enough to think I could read a story as introduction without losing my control)--Here in reading my mail and in "minding" this posting I have also wept, but I have the choice to offer that in trust to each of you or to hold that in reserve for my own private grief. Unfortunately one of the drawbacks of the net is that even in feeling enough safety to "weep aloud" with you, the channel does have a remoteness--no arms long enough to offer comfort, no touch intense enough to break though the screen in front of me. The keyboard doesn't have the touch of a hand or the firm/softness of a shoulder. I am surprised at the safety I feel though-- and the delight at having such a forum to process the processing of this with you (esp. interesting since I was intimidated by Laurel's postings back several weeks ago, yet it was the exchange between Laurel and Fred this past week that seemed to revise the tone of what's going on and enhance the safety.) I see the clock and realize I must go to bed, lest I sleep through the alarm and not get my munchkin off to school on time. Walter, I owe you some discussion of rhetoric over here--I haven't forgotten. Susan Susan Z. Swan, Ph.D. Dept. of Speech Communication University of South Dakota _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:45:27 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Cyber-Love, Synchronicity etc. Comments: cc: Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk Hi again everybody, That's a *lot* of Psybernet articles I see in my mailbox! If the traffic here's going to stay at this level I'm going to have to start 'photo-reading' the articles. I've been intrigued by the cyber-sex discussion here & the further mentions of synchronicity; I thought I'd drop my 2pworth in, too - [Well, 560 line worth actually but I've never been Mr Concise on the net]; Rather than mailbomb everybody again I'll just give the URL this time- if anyone would like an e-mail copy just ask me. I've been thinking about this 'cyber-sex' idea and the parallels to my own technique of telling one's subconscious mind that it is deeply in love under trance; Whereas people are often sceptical in my experience of the value of cyber-romance, the effects of my own approach are strikingly obvious and very powerful, as I described in the article I posted here entitled 'Jeffries ideas for nice people'. Having had a good think I've come to the conclusion that Laurel's ideas are perfectly reasonable & that the emotions and feelings generated in such 'cyber-sex' could produce similar mental and physical benefits to my own approach. I think a lot depends on the degree to which people get engrossed in a chat, an e-mail discussion or a newsgroup thread; People quite commonly do get hypnotised by the TV and online, and the degree of emotional involvement plays a large part in how deeply one goes into alpha consciousness; Other factors involved in stimulating the emotions include visualisation, ability to bypass the critical faculty of the concsious mind to connect the right-brain directly with the conversation and interaction, and the natural somnambulistic ability of the persons concerned; Being a natural somnambulist myself I tend to get very emotionally involved in discussions on the net [and quite often need a hypnosis & affirmation session to remove the bad vibes! :-)]. I feel that much of the 'mainstream' information we are bombarded with by the media is designed purposely to produce negative feelings - in effect, mental and emotional rape. I dont watch the news last thing at night [on the advice of Louise Hay], since it just seems to be a list of disasters; I believe that much clearing work is done in the dream states of consciousness and I dont want to take that negativity into them. If cyber-sex [I would rather call it cyber-love to be honest, because it is the romantic involvement, the friendship, the intimacy, the kindness and the so very positive feelings of love and happiness which I like to engage in cyber-talk on, not the sexual act itself. However, I think that's part and parcel of what Laurel and Dolores are talking about?] gives an antidote to that and constitutes a positive influence on the subconscious mind, then I'm all for it. I'll close this article with some pointers to some more information I would like to recommend to people interested in raising their immune system / level of happiness / feelings of love through altered states of consciousness: You can heal your life, Louise L Hay 1984 [bestseller] Answer Cancer, The Healing of a Nation, Steve Parkhill: Health Communications 1995. Parkhill's book shows how to apply Louise Hay's insights through hypnosis. Creative Visualisations, Ronald Shone : shows how to use imagery to heighten emotion and stimulate right-brain involvement My own 'Jeffries ideas for nice people II - Tearing down the wall' is now up at http://www.gla.ac.uk/~combpsy.html New Dawn magazine and Nexus magazine are now up on the web at : these have many articles which discuss the esoteric basis of love, energy and emotions, as well as a large amount of 'alternative' and conspiracy information. www.peg.apc.org/~newdawn/ www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/ See you in another couple of hundred articles :-) Steve Murray Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 06:19:48 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis Hi Regina, Welcome to the crisis club. >Maybe the teen years would be the only other >time when I think the emotions were so overwhelming. Interesting that you should notice that. The emotional turmoil of hormones and the idealism of freshly discovered thinking powers does indeed have a reflection in the biology and intellectual/spiritual crisis of mid-life. >The net has inhanced our >relationship, and not just because it is a shared interest. The ability to communicate, the opening of the dialogue channels within oneself must indeed reflect back to real-time relationships. Unfortunately, not all relationships will *grow* with authentic dialogue. Sometimes the dialogue just illustrates the real gulf that exists and highlights the truth that the gulf is unbridgeable. I'm glad it has worked out for you. For me, I'm in process, so no comment one way or the other. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 06:20:01 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Tilting at windmills Wilbur, Sad tale of humanity in positions of power, a common tale. I wish that there was some way that one could be screened (trained) for positions of responsibility and power. Perhaps one day mediums such as PSYBER-L will become part of the executive training ground. It's hard to hang out here and not pick up a few ethical thoughts. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:17:42 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Re: element of synchronicity Mila, in answer to your question, as best I can in my body knowing of synchronicity, keeping in mind hard to use words to speak of the felt sense for me plus I know that Jung spoke of synchronicity and I have never read his idea of it BTW >> As as aside or the point here, I find the element of synchronicity which occurs in cyberspace the reason for my continued engagement. <<< Sync in which sense ?? If it's short response time, then please enjoy being embedded in the vast American e-mail community, in which local times differ at most by some hours. Here in Europe, we've got to live with a time difference of 8 hrs from, say, Ohio; so there must be other motives for us to engage, As I happen to write on e-mail immediacy models, I'd like to read about the meaning of the word 'synchronicity' in *your* context. All the best, Mila> First, a small background piece. The driving question since a child has been how the external is created, or in another sense which was not a word I had available at the time, how things manifest. In the yogic tradition there is the story of the 3 stages of manifestation. Stage one you want an apple and you find an apple tree and an apple and you take the seeds and plant them and in 7 years you get your apple. Stage two you want an apple and you go to the market and buy the apple. Stage three is you want an apple and you hold out your hand and it arrives instantly in your palm. Now the context of my comments and I feel it necessary to say this is how I live my reality which doesn't mean it is how others do or do I make any judgment as to the validity of my experience or any generalized application. I'm on this earth playing, deeply, but playing none the less. So here goes as best as I can... I live from an internal to the external to the internal dynamic, each feeding the other thru the system of energy which is at the basic level vibration. In this way of framing then there is an harmonic resonance which I suppose you could use the word affinity, me in harmonydissonance, with the inner level. As a metaphor I think of the internet as an externalized manifestation of what is going on at the inner level. I also view the universe as a cooperativeopportunistic event, in the organic sense which does not cast judgement on the dynamic. I do not attribute any judgemental aspect to the words cooperative and opportunistic in a sense of good or bad. These words are descriptors but not in a psychological attribution. My work is informed by physicists like David Peat, the biologist Rupert Sheldrak, Frij Capra, Brian Goodwin, Prigogine etc to further put my comments in context. I have not studied psychology though I know it in a sense. I also am engaged as a healer, tho not hands on, where I come from more of a Chinese medicine and chakra perspective and use energy as the basis of my work. This said, when I say synchronicity I am using it in the context of the deep cooperative event of the universe and that means the cooperation happens thru resonance which is an effect of vibration. I suppose you could use a tuning fork as a metaphor. At the deepest level there is an intention as well as the intention(s) we hold as individuals. I think of myself as a receivertransmitter of vibration fromto this inner space. I then receive according to my attunement. I am vibration and the universe is vibration and the inner action sets up conditions for harmonydissonance. If my tuning fork is vibrating at C then I will receive C and the overtones of C and when I run into D there is a dissonanceresolution aspect and I retune my transmitter. Now the internet to me then is this externalization which I often call the innernet or when I'm playing I call it the Inner Communication Network. the Internet to me is a manifestation of the internal. As an aside, in my early work in computers in the 60's it struck me how the computer was a sort of externalization of how a brain ala the 60s view *worked* and that man was exploring how the brain worked. I learned to program with a memory dump and a hardware manual BTW Now the only way I can get to my idea of synchronicity is to use my experience. In a surface sort of idea it's when you're thinking of someone you need to ask a question and that person shows up at the supermarket at exactly the time you get there. Kind of a cosmic outcome of holding an intention and the resonancecooperation aspect attunes and the person picked up the intention and shows up.Often when people ask me what I do I say I show up. What this means to me here in cyberspace, also keeping in mind that I see space not in terms of distance or time but in a sense of the internal pot of vibration, sorry for my crude explanation. The Mayans speak of the matrix.So getting back to manifestation. If I hold as intention manifestation of something I want, I set up a resonance which then is out there in the spacetime and others will resonate or not resonate to it. To the degree that I hold open to receiving, keeping my transmitter scanning, and to the degree I am open to the multiplicity of probabilities, the opportunity for my intention to manifest is leveraged. In cyberspace, I now am connected to the vastness of resonanceprobabilities and as I engage with intention and we have multiple intentions at all times, people receive thru the inner space and synchronize in this outer space and intentions, conscious or unconscious manifest.This is why I don't *believe* in inadvertant actions, just not conscious actions. It's sort of the mystical made practical. I hold the belief that we are all here to assist each other to evolve or in another senes to grow soul and the bumping into each other in the external world is merely the work that is going on. The efficiency of the system or the productivity depends in some part to one's ability to be open and hold a clear intention. So a person in NZ writes a poem from his intention and it informs my intention, he not being consciously aware that he is informing *me* although in some sense the impetus to share the poem might have some intuitive knowing to it as in he might not know why he's sharing this poem but he feels compelled for some reason. In this scenario I *find* the inform-ation. It is my view that the more we listen to these inner level sensings, the more the inner cooperative event is manifested in the external. My experience in the Internet is that every time I tune in on the internet there is a synchronicitic event which happens for me. Often it is instantaneous. I have an intention, turn on my computer and the answer or assistance pops onto my screen. At other times I have experienced having an intention become conscious and I had already received the data daysmonths before which is exactly the piece I need which in another sense was there all along I just wasn't *ready* to receive it. To the degree that I can hold the model and to the degree I can keep my receivertransmitter open and to the degree I can keep *me* from interfering with the process thru static creation, is the degree to which I can manifestfulfill my intention. The internet then is a very practical tool because it leverages the probabilities of me receiving and extends my ability to transmit directly. In the end for me it's all happening at the inner level anyhow in the framing I hold.The internet is just us consciously creating in the external what is already going on. This way we just see it. when one looks at the internet from a perspective of self-organizing systems, and chaos theory, complexity theory, dissipative systems, etc. the internet is giving us a direct experience of the internal view which is coming into the main stream from fringe scienctists, ie: David Peat's Turbulant Mirror and The Philosophers Stone, Rupert Sheldrak's morphogenic fields, for instance, which is disconcerting to the western mind because for a few hundred years we have been laboring under the mechanistic as the superordinate model. And then we fight over whether it is mechanistic or organic, thru our duelisticdualistic natures. Well, I've blabbed on but as I stated at the beginning it is hard for me as a kinesthetic to describe my experience and how I *work* and *know* things. But I've lived my life as a fun scientific experiment testing hyphotheses and acting as if always trying to have that apple manifest in the palm of my hand . It's a wonder to me to live! regards, Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:15:06 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: dragons Hello, friends. I have been very moved by the deep sharing on the list this week -- especially Steven and Susan. My life requires my attention right now, so my voice may be silent for a while, but I wanted to share some words that that have brought me comfort. < Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Wilber..jung..love etc etc etc At 12:56 AM 4/26/96 +0100, you wrote: >> >>But it's not "real" it's not something that can be ultimatly fullfilling, as >>you haven't come to realize yet. Love? Is it love when you don't know the >>face of the other person? Is it love when you are limited to about 20 wpm >>on an IRC? Is it "Love" when you can't even control the font that the other >>person sees? Is it "Love" when the only mechanism of communcation is type >>written text on a computer screen? I vote no! > >Course its love Wilbur.. define love for me before you start deciding >whether or not in can exist in an electronicly enhanced enviroment. Love doesn't demand that I get to the point where I am putting myself at risk. If I have to sacrifice some part of myself, or it messes up some part of myself, then it's not love. In order to love another, it somehow has to fit in with loving myself. If I can't love myself when I'm doing it, then it's not love, it something else. > >>Sure, the fantasy can appear real, but it's just a fantasy, take phone sex >>as an example. Addicting, yes.. but ultimatly fulfilling, no! Can you make >>a child from Netsex? Can you really come to understand the other individual >>as you would if you live with them? No! It's an interesting diversion, and >>depending on your ability to immerse yourself in typing, may indeed seem >>real, but it's not as real as a face to face relationship. It's not as real >>as making a child with someone. It's not as real as "Real Life". > >Wilbur..I'd really hate to accuse you of confusing sex with love here. Can >you understand the other individual as you would if you live with them. >Yes..more so even. No, that's a fantasy. You don't understand someone via traded email better than you would face to face. I challendge you to take the bull by the horns and use the additional bandwidth that you have and meet someone face to face, complete with all that life has to offer, not limited by your typing speed. >Any idiot can make a child mores the pity..love isnt >always involved in that act either. But the act of love is the coming together with another soul in a way that creates something new. What is the creation in Cyberspace other than a few KB in an archive? Words sometimes ring even more hollow in Cyberspace than they do in real life. I agree that there is a sense of connectedness, but it's entirely based on words, and it takes more than words to make love. >>But you are, in a sense, already doing that. You claim that you have no >>control over how your dark side crosses the lines, but indeed, you are on >>the only one in control. No one else has the control. >> >>>On the other hand, I do not wish to hurt anyone, including my cyberpartner >>>and soulmate. >> >>Is the soulmate the one that you are married to? If not, then you are >>decieving yourself and not living up to the vows that you probably made when >>you got married. > >Why decieving himself? Your soul isn't something divorced from your body. You made a vow when you got married probably along the line of "forsaking all others, keeping yourself.." yet you aren't forsaking another online. A marriage isn't about nice and easy. Getting the courage up to deal with the inner demons isn't always easy, but without that effort, the life that you end up with in a marriage isn't anything but empty. So in a sense, getting involved in an untimatly unfullfilling relationship, that will never create a total soulmate, is a form of deceit. On the other hand, once the deceit of a cyber relationship is discovered, that doesn't reduce the reality of the cyber relationship, it just points out that there is more available in a real relationship than you had ever dreamed. It's just a matter of getting to the point where you can reach out and express those parts that were previously hidden in a forum that isn't limited by typing speed and data communcations.. ie. being able to express your feelings with another person. Perhap's it's a blessing that this forum exists so that feelings can come to the surface that remain hidden when not worked out in the self-discovery of writing, but those idea's or parts of self can be expressed in real life also, it's scarier, but also more real. >> >>>I suspect that whatever happens will be painful for me... >> >>I suspect that you are already in pain, and will probably experience some >more.. >> >>I suspect Wilbur your right >> >>Steven, >> >>I'm sorry that what I say may seem harsh, (actually, more accuratly, what I >>type..) but the emotional truth is that you have an involvement with a woman >>outside your marriage, and that is something that you'll have to deal with >>at some point, or your marriage will fail. It's quite possible that your >>marriage is already failing, but it's also quite possible that you are >>avoiding your personal responsibilties to your marriage and using NetSex as >>a temporary drug/replacement for those things that you aren't getting out of >>your marriage. > >I dont remember him citing netsex as the motivating force behind the >relationship Wilbur. >Any relationship based soley on sex/netsex is doomed to failure eventually. That's my point.. > >> >>Ultimately, however the question and the truth boils down to this question, >>how fulfilled as a man will you be if you don't have real sex and just have >>cyber sex? If the answer is that you would be unfulfilled with a steady >>diet of cyber sex only, then CyberSex isn't real. > >Again, your basing your hypothesises on his relationship being only carnal >in nature. >I suspect Wilbur your short of a few romantic bones. Nope.. I have plenty of romantic bones.. but there is enough of a romantic in me to realize that by keeping my cyber bone in my pants I'm protecting myself and my (lets call them more) real relationships from deceits that I would feel ashamed admitting. >Throughout history love has been glorified in text..with the written word. We >create words from love..why not love from words. Because it isn't a complete expression of life. Life is more than words. The best expression of life is living it. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:28:15 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: love, etc. Perhaps if Love is in the eye of the beholder, so is the concept of love. Why not? That said, for my self and in my own experience, to Love another person absolutely demands a terrible/wonderful (even glorious,) sacrifice. >If I have to sacrifice some part of myself, or it messes up some part >of myself, then it's not love. I would go farther, (and may later :) .. ) but for now, some Rumi, ra, courtesy of Coleman Barks. *** Gamble everything for love, if you're a true human being. If not, leave this gathering. Half-heartedness doesn't reach into majesty. You set out to find God, but then you keep stopping for long periods at mean-spirited roadhouses. *** Are some searching for greater majesty on-line? Why not? HooN \\\|/// \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) --------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo--------------- | | | Stephen Calhoun | | hoon@apk.net | | http://junior.apk.net/~hoon | | | ----------------------Oooo.--------------- .oooO ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 08:39:47 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia In-Reply-To: <960424141051_381803521@emout10.mail.aol.com> Marie, I found your reference to Yalom interesting. But how does the net serve as a microcosm of society when only a small portion of communication (content) is present? Most of communication is non-verbal, and that doesn't come through on the net. That's why I find the term "intimacy" incongruent with net discourse: there is so much of the communication missing. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:48:08 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Cyber-Love, Synchronicity etc. I feel that much of the 'mainstream' information we are bombarded with by >the media is designed purposely to produce negative feelings - in effect, >mental and emotional rape. I dont watch the news last thing at night [on >the advice of Louise Hay], since it just seems to be a list of disasters; Ah yes, the lies that keep us together.. for the sake of our institutions.. the government to protect us from crime, the hospitals to make it all better, etc.. But what does the instituion have to do with us as individuals? Why do they have to right to dominate our lives in almost all media forms? Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:06:06 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: text Saying that something is merely "text", even making it into a perjoration, misses the point of words-language-meaning-metaphor. How metaphor connects with each of us is an experiential journey, and this journey starts before the word is first met. ...er, IMO. It can't be explained or justified. Words resonate deeply not because they mean this and that but because persons mean this or that. *** HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:06:56 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Cyber-Love Seems odd one might question another's experience of Love...(not that this isn't done all the time.) I feel Love is possible in this medium and it trivializes matters to reduce it by suggesting it cannot be transmitted through words. After all the transmitter is the human Heart, and there is ample evidence its subtle expression may be carried within the *word seed*. (And, the explicit recognition of solitude -easier on-line- necessary to the bridge-building and servitude demanded by some stations of Love, is no less a requirement in F2F relationships. A humbling thought, at least to me!) *** If you don't get it, you'll just have to fall in love on-line. And if you never fall in love on-line, you *really* will not have much of interest to say about it. *** Laurel, others, have been there. Her pulse has quickened. Her soul has become more intense and glorious as a result. (I sense.) My reaction? Awe. *** HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:07:58 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: element of synchronicity Jb, Psyberians, "The irrationality of events is shown in what we call chance, which we are obviously compelled to deny, because we cannot in principle think of any process that is not causal and necessary, whence it follows from that it cannot happen by chance. In practice, however, chance reigns everywhere, and so obtrusively that we might as well put out causal philosophy in our pocket. The plenitude of life is governed by law and yet not governed by law, rational and yet irrational. Hence reason and the will that is grounded in reason are valid only up to a point. The further we go in the direction selected by reason, the surer we may be that we are excluding the irrational possibilities of life which have just as much right to be lived. It was indeed highly expedient for man to become somewhat more capable of directing his life. It may justly be maintained that the acquisition of reason is the greatest achievement of humanity; but that is not to say that things must or always will continue in that direction." C.G.Jung, CW 7:72 *** (I'm quote happy today because, Jung sez it better than I ever will!) So, besides being an "acausal connecting" principle one might play with synchronicity as ordinate with respect to "random causal" made meaningful via our intuition or "irrational reason" (!). A more subtle level is perennial: signification. (And by qualifying it as perennial I'm detaching it from modern semiotics.) What do I mean? *** By being open and "reading" the heavensent signs we evolve into Lovers. *** HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:31:02 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia Barbara writes: >Most of communication is non-verbal, and that >doesn't come through on the net. That's why I find the term "intimacy" >incongruent with net discourse: there is so much of the communication >missing. Perhaps it might be better to say: *Research has demonstrated that* most of communication is non-verbal. *** This is relative to the actual circumstance. Think of how blind, deaf, and dumb people communicate. Is it like making lemonade from the lemons you *actually* have? What would be a test of intimacy? Is it a fact that most of on-line communication is textual? Are we playing with desicated norms in stating that "most of communication is ____ " *** My own thoughts were partially expressed in a story posted several weeks ago. I'm posting it again. This is an 'archetypal' story, or a 'teaching story' (excuse me in advance!) thus it has numerous levels of explication. Pertinent to this discussion is an image: wandering around in a world different from the world that that world is imbedded within... To persons not on-line, persons 'frozen', unseeing of this world, we are invisible... Yet, in this invisible world we bring the larger world in pieces (perhaps) with us. There is Cyberspace and then there is Cyberspace... HooN *** >A story. > >I was with my teacher in a group totalling he and the four pitiful students >that we were! On a bright Monday morning in May we all went for a walk. The >place is New Orleans. It is very early and not too hot and surprisingly not >humid. We are all washed and clean and fresh. Because we are students we >understand our very opennesss is to be challenged. > >Our teacher is good at this, very good. > >We happen into the lobby of a large downtown hotel. It is empty except for >a young gentleman at the front desk who is chatting with a janitor. We >aren't a strange looking group really, but with one nod of the head from >our teacher, the man at the desk is put at ease. > >Our group moves toward the doorway of the coffee shop to our left. We are >very quiet. Leading the way, our teacher opens the doorway and takes one >step into the coffee shop. There are twelve people enjoying the morning, >some coffee, and some food. They look up and are met with a short sweep of >our teacher's hand. > >Suddenly all twelve are frozen. In mid sip, in mid bite, in mid word, in >mid thought, in mid breath. > >We all step into the coffee shop. Silently our teacher beckons us to >explore. We walk up to some of the paralyzed persons. Their chests neither >rise nor fall.Their eyes do not blink. Yet, they are warm and full of life. > >The door opens and a young man, perhaps a truck driver in his uniform, >steps in and is immediatly himself frozen several steps into the coffee >shop. > >Our teacher gestures for us to have a look behind the counter. Standing >around him we note the water faucet is on but it too is frozen, a single >stream pouring into a pitcher the counterman is holding-but it does not >fill up. > >Silently we all then look up and our teacher's eyes wait for each of us: >brown, deep, timeless. > >A moment later he, with a nod of the head, indicates we are to leave. >Stepping by the man in the doorway we leave with our teacher trailing. As >he steps through the doorway he turns and with a matching wave of his hand >the coffee shop returns to its activity, chests begin again to rise and >fall. Eyes see. It is as it was. > >Soon we are back on the sidewalk laughing in amazement. Our teacher answers >our questioning looks with the following: > >"There is space and then there is space; there is time and then there is time." > >*** > >There is cyberspace and then there is cyberspace. Perhaps our catagories >are not adequate. > >Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:49:05 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: love, etc. >Perhaps if Love is in the eye of the beholder, so is the concept of love. >Why not? That said, for my self and in my own experience, to Love another >person absolutely demands a terrible/wonderful (even glorious,) sacrifice. Sacrifice for the sake of love? What a bit of utter nonsense.. Makes for good fairy tales, but doesn't have much to do with love. You claim that love is in the eye of the beholder, then attempt to push your own perception as an absolute reality, as if there is something noble/better about love the requires sacrifice. I grew up with the "We sacrificed everything for you" line, which was in turn used as a justification for all sorts of abuses.. I didn't ask for a sacrifice, and love doesn't require it. If you can't see how to live life without sacrifice, that's your problem, but it's not love. I love myself and my partner enough to be able to live life without sacrifice. If you love yourself, then you can love another. If you don't think enough of yourself to love yourself, then what do you have to offer another? Idealizing life is more important then trying to live an ideal. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:49:11 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Cyber-Love At 11:06 AM 4/26/96 -0400, you wrote: >Seems odd one might question another's experience of Love...(not that this >isn't done all the time.) > >I feel Love is possible in this medium and it trivializes matters to reduce >it by suggesting it cannot be transmitted through words. After all the >transmitter is the human Heart, and there is ample evidence its subtle >expression may be carried within the *word seed*. Perhaps, but I notice that you didn't say "full expression".. --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:49:08 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: text At 11:06 AM 4/26/96 -0400, you wrote: >Saying that something is merely "text", even making it into a perjoration, >misses the point of words-language-meaning-metaphor. > I chose text specifically for that reason.. I wished to avoid the words-language-meaning-metaphor. (Check out the Seal song about "Why must we dream in Metaphor" >How metaphor connects with each of us is an experiential journey, and this >journey starts before the word is first met. ...er, IMO. But everyone experiences life differently.. I also knew what life was before words meant anything. > >It can't be explained or justified. Words resonate deeply not because they >mean this and that but because persons mean this or that. Have to disagree with you there.. words only mean what the "eye of the beholder" thinks that they mean. They only mean what we perceive them to mean, not what they speaker intends them to mean. Words are only sounds that we have come to assign meaning to, not meanings in and of themselves. The resonance is not from the speaker, but from the internal mechanisms that we have humans have assigned to our way of understanding them. I have this wonderful game that I can play with my mouth. I can make these sounds that seem to make sense, but they don't make any sense at all, because they are just sounds. All of a sudden I realize that they aren't sounds, they're words, but then again, they aren't really making any sense after all. But then they seem to make wonderful sense, because they are something that means more than the words, perhaps it's all of the people that have come before me, that have found voice in my words, perhaps it's even, gasp, God speaking, but then again, they are just words, and just sounds, and after all, it's just a silly little game that I've learned how to play with my mouth. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:02:09 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: love, etc. Wilbur writes: >Sacrifice for the sake of love? What a bit of utter nonsense.. Wilbur, are you saying this is true for you in your experience, or, that my experience of sacrifice for the sake of love is "utter nonsense"? >good fairy tales, but doesn't have much to do with love. You claim that >love is in the eye of the beholder, then attempt to push your own perception >as an absolute reality, as if there is something noble/better about love the >requires sacrifice. For me, Love requires my sacrifice; in fact, FOR ME: it requires my servitude. > >I grew up with the "We sacrificed everything for you" line, which was in >turn used as a justification for all sorts of abuses.. I didn't ask for a >sacrifice, and love doesn't require it. If you can't see how to live life >without sacrifice, that's your problem, but it's not love. I can't see how to live life without sacrifice. Now it is true that up until my mid-life crisis I tried! Anyway, Wilbur, you may wish to edify me as to how you have accomplished this, and I'll consider if is perhaps possible that I too could follow your path. (BTW, you'd have to ask the people whom *I* love if they're abused. My greatest abuses occurred when i was most unwilling to sacrifice anything *for the sake of Love*, but that's only MY EXPERIENCE.)) *** But I never was very specific about what it is that I intend and choose to be sacrificed both through Love, from Love, to Love. Was I? *** Could it be the, some of the, a few, (a single) illusions about who I am? *** HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:07:38 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Cyber-Love >Perhaps, but I notice that you didn't say "full expression".. So? Is that your point? I feel the FULL expression of a person's love for me *absolutely in the here and now* and that person has been dead for over seven hundred years. Go figure. *** HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:23:05 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: text Oh dear, here Wilbur goes again, putting a technological face on our humanity : > I have this wonderful game that I can play with my mouth. I can > make these sounds that seem to make sense, but they don't make > any sense at all, because they are just sounds. All of a sudden I > realize that they aren't sounds, they're words, but then again, they > aren't really making any sense after all. But then they seem to > make wonderful sense, because they are something that means > more than the words, perhaps it's all of the people that have come > before me, that have found voice in my words, perhaps it's even, > gasp, God speaking, but then again, they are just words, and just > sounds, and after all, it's just a silly little game that I've learned > how to play with my mouth. There are *excellent* reasons for construing text as meaning only what a reader / listener brings to it as meaning -- apart from anything else, it's an effective counter-spell to the spell woven by eg advertisers, a means of clearing away the rubble of *unchosen magic* by which we tend to be bewitched, with our nationalisms and personal fetishistic ideas of "this is how it's supposed to be" and expectations about what forms love can and cannot inhabit... But there are *better* -- or rather I should say *deeper* -- reasons, along the lines of Pascal's remark "the heart has reasons reason knows not of", for viewing language as meaning also more than this... apart from anything else, because specific states of consciousness latent in us can be *called forth* in words in a way which cuts across our usual defences against such states -- and these states have "meaning" in a way which can be directly and magnificently healing to ourselves and others. But then I have a page about all this under the title "In the words of a Tibetan Geshe" on the web at: >>> http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/Geshe.html This is an extended formulation, because I wanted to discuss any number of important ideas from a variety of cultures as to what such states of consciousness might be -- yugen and mutabilitie, duende and lachrimae rerum, the blues and sringara -- but it all expands on a very simple idea, central to eastern poetics: :: poetry is the science of using words in such a way that a state of :: consciousness present in one is summoned in another. * Any truly polyphonic discussion of language and meaning will therefore need to contain both Wilbur's voice and meaning and the voice and meaning offered by Steve Calhoun... A fugue would be nice... Best wishes, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:57:02 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: Robert, my question had more to do with curiousity than personal interest. I am getting an MA in Counseling and couples work is very interesting to me. I am happily married for the last three years, but have spent a great deal of time in failed relationships and think that I have learned alot about intimate relationships and what makes them work. so my interest is mainly to see if I can be of any help. I think that the process that you describe is very much the norm in the development of marriages. My husband has been married before, for 20 years, to a woman he married to take care of. They had two children, the older child he developed a close relationship with, and when she left, he had no more companion, and felt his lonliness. He and his ex-wife had developed parallel lives, rather than adapting to roles in the marriage. After his daughter left for college, he met me, and the rest is history. I think that few people, particularly men, leave a relationship unless they have someone else to go to. It's too scary, especially after many years together. And then that new person usually does not turn out to be a potential mate, but it was a way for the person to get out of the relationship. So, all this leads to my definition of intimacy...that you are able to be who you are in the relationship and still be accepted and loved. That means, no role-playing. So let me ask you this..if you stopped playing your roles, and became who you really are, would your wife still love and accept you? Would you still love and accept her? Is she also in a role? What if you both took off your masks, what would happen? If you stopped your role-playing, would she leave you? If I were you (and this isn't advice, just sharing my experience), I would try dropping my roles and see what happened to the relationship (letting your wife know what is going on, of course). If the relationship is strong, it will survive, and even thrive, because you will experience intimacy for perhaps the first time. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:00:37 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: text I think it is safe to say, Wilbur, that you TOTALLY misunderstood me. Which is neat, since we are discussing: meaning. I wrote: >>How metaphor connects with each of us is an experiential journey, and this >>journey starts before the word is first met. ...er, IMO. > >But everyone experiences life differently.. I also knew what life was before >words meant anything. > Ooops. I didn't intend to mean before the *first* word is first met. I do mean that both our subjective, intersubjective, and private understandings of what a word means is informed by our (different) experience. This understanding is informed also by our shared experience too, among other shared aspects. We understand what confusion means or misunderstanding means by being confused and misunderstanding, (or being misunderstood,) and we might even say that there are meanings of words which can't be explained by words but can be expressed by words. Help. >> >>It can't be explained or justified. Words resonate deeply not because they >>mean this and that but because persons mean this or that. Wilbur replied: > >Have to disagree with you there.. words only mean what the "eye of the >beholder" thinks that they mean. I wrote: "because persons mean this or that," So I feel it's a two-way street. We differ; my experience is that I can clearly express myself so that another person can behold my "words" and understand not only what they mean but what my intention is, was. I agree with the linguist George Lakaff: this is not at all merely a matter of unpacking the normative "meaning" of a word, or having the transmitter pack the 'meaning' and the receiver unpack it. The intersubjective functioning necessary to successful communication must, IMO, concern how it is we are able to communicate using language, at ALL. If someone has the intention not to understand what a word means, they probably won't understand, even if what is being transmitted is simple, 'self-evident', and logically coherent: "the sky is blue,". (Likewise, if words only mean what the >>eye of the beholder thinks that they mean<< then it follows logically that communication breakdowns will proceed quite quickly from what the beholder thinks given, and for example, that if you think Love means one thing and I think Love means another, then we are talking about two different "Love(s)"; yes? Not that this prevents our talking about Love from being a meaningful conversation! ) Is textual communication is more complex than reductionist theories of normative semantics or (Wilbur's) "beholder" theory? *** >mean, not what they speaker intends them to mean. Words are only sounds >that we have come to assign meaning to, not meanings in and of themselves. Exactly. "Words resonate deeply not because they mean this and that but because persons mean this or that" >The resonance is not from the speaker, but from the internal mechanisms that >we have humans have assigned to our way of understanding them. So how is it that what I intend to make meaningful using words can be understood by you? At all? Where does the ripple start? *** And, can we prove anything about meaning one way or the other? HooN ------------------------------------------- confusing a everything face on Putting ;-0 ------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:17:57 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Laurel Subject: Re: Love on a different plane.. Stephen, Wilbur, my hidden cyberlove.. Seems odd one might question another's experience of Love...(not that this isn't done all the time.) Love is so personal. So varied so intense. Nobody will understand how I felt when I lost my dog unless they too have felt that sort of love. You cannot empathise with all the various types of love until you too have been there and felt it in its entirety. Is the love I felt for my dog not valid because he was a dog? Only another dog owner would understand. I have cried less at the death of some of my relatives than I did when he went. He took part of my life with him when he died. Course thats not love is it..after all he was only a dog. Wilbur.. I dont have time to concoct a long reply till later to the other email...but I have to say to you a) Im not talking about an email relationship. Im talking an irc relationship built up over many months and many many hours. b)Dont knock it till you've tried it. And if your soul hasnt soared here then it was with the wrong person anyway. Im not going to be decietfull about the person I love here. Because I have nothing to be ashamed of. Even my husband saw the intensity of the relationship and the changes it had on me as a person. He welcomed those changes, unfortunatly what killed us was the fact that he had been unable to effect them himself. This place is special..it does have a magic. If you cant see the magic its because you have lost a sense of wonder, that everything needs rationalisation and dissection. (typical programmer) Sometimes the most wonderfull thing you can do is forget all that you know is possible and to dive into the impossible and just go with the flow. I also think age has a great deal to do with our perception and understanding of love. Life experience changes us dramatically..we are more sure of what it is we really want as we grow older, and what it is that we do not want. Our idealisation of love changes with the decades..our expectations of love change accordingly. This place has something that I believe we are yet to discover and that is ourselves and the ability to love and to know other human beings in a way that just doesnt exist outside of cyberspace, but which we will learn to translate into our real lives. This place is a healing place and also a force for destruction. I for one will take the good and stomp on the bad. I have seen both and I am afraid of neither now. >If you don't get it, you'll just have to fall in love on-line. And if you >never fall in love on-line, you *really* will not have much of interest to >say about it. > Ask a pigeon how it sees the sky, and it will tell you the sky is blue and the sun shines brightly in it, ask an owl how it sees the sky and it will tell you it is black and alive with stars. A pigeon will never know the owls sky. Yet they both see the same sky but from different viewpoints. Neither of them is wrong, because they *only* see their own perspectives of their time in the sky. >I started writing poetry again because of my life online..and I wrote this which is my favorite because it comes from within as a warning to myself as much as to the person I wrote it for...Love somebody once told me is the ability to makeyourself vulnerable..and that to me is what love is all about..especially cyberlove because you know that one day it will turn around and rip the heart from you. You given yourself completely to somebody and made yourself forever vulnerable. Love in real life gave me a daughter and I love that daughter. It was that love that illusion..far more so than the love I got here. The love that made her was selfish and demanded control.. it couldnt survive change. Love in cyberspace gave me myself and the ability to change and I like who I rediscovered myself to be with somebody who believed in what I was. I wouldnt swap what I gained for what I lost if I could turn back time and stop my husband as he walked out of the door. Cyber love I would touch you, And in that desired caress, I will place a million images And carve each with my visions I would hold you, And in that vaguest touch I would explode a million promises, Shattering the place where you existed I would kiss you, And I will scythe your reality. And I will have the heart and soul from you Till love lies bleeding from a word. > >Laurel, others, have been there. Her pulse has quickened. Her soul has >become more intense and glorious as a result. (I sense.) > >Abso-bloody-loutly Viva sweet love.. And who cares where you find it. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:32:40 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Tilting at windmills In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960425174959.00b174a8@monmouth.com> Wilbur, I hear you about ethics, justice, and getting ahead. I think a person can get ahead while caring about ethics and justice. I'm not sure how, and maybe I'm just a quasi-young idealist, but I say stay ethical and just, and eventually people will beat a path to your door! Everyone wants an ethical doctor, lawyer, and business person to deal with. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:42:39 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960425160136.1f977d46@uc.edu> Steven, I have some thoughts on your dilemma. I also feel that cyber communication is "real" -- it just isn't complete. More than half of communication is non-verbal, and the net doesn't allow that to come through. So what you are experiencing as intimacy, is really only your comfort level in discussing content with your cyberpal. True intimacy can only come with complete communication, one that includes the non-verbal element. Also, be careful about what you are projecting onto your friend in cyberspace...we have a tendency to project our other self (Jung's anima/animus concept). For men, this means that you project your feminine side onto the female on the other side of the net. This may or may not have anything to do with her true personality. If this happens in face-to-face communication, with all the non-verbals, surely it happens more frequently in the net, where all the non-verbals are missing. My guess is that no matter what you have been through with your soulmate, you do not really know her. You only know what she lets through with her content, and what you have projected into the missing non-verbals. So be really careful...internet romance seldom survives the face-to-face contact. Lastly, be careful that your addictive personality has not abused the internet...you can be addicted to activities as well as substances (you probably know this). The moment your net life becomes more important than anything else, you know it is addictive behavior. Hope this has been helpful, and not judgmental (I don't mean to be.) Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 14:37:46 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia >True intimacy >can only come with complete communication, one that includes the >non-verbal element. I suggest that this is a conceit, and is, itself, a defence against intimacy. *** Thought problem. Let's imagine a person who can *only* communicate *to you* using email. Such a person is deaf, dumb, paralyzed from the neck down. They type with a pencil stuck in their mouth. They spend most of the day in front of their computer "making" email. For three years this person and you exchange stories, recountings of experiences, artistic expressions, poetry, dreams; you argue and resolve; at times you are moved to sorrow; other times to joy. Then, one day, you go visit this person. Your heart races in anticipation. You go to this person's house and are let in by their caretaker. That person leads you to your cyber friend's room's door. You open the door. The person is not there! But a computer screen is blazing a screen saver's message: It says: "I love you." *** Not true intimacy? Not complete communication? I cannot agree. That screen saver's blazing is complete communication, and such a moment is fully intimate; at least in the way that I am able to solve the thought problem. And, yes, this is *my* conceit. *** Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 14:42:51 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia >The person is not there! But a computer screen is blazing a screen saver's >message: > >It says: > > > > > >"I love you." > OTOH, the non-verbal element is here too. As it is when I'm reading my email. You *do* have to use your imagination. *** Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 14:01:02 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: my apologies In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960425194932.00af0d74@monmouth.com> Wilbur, not as I understand "addiction." Wanting to deeply understand a subject is more a function of your degree of introversion, and not the same as addiction. The amount of time you spend on your computer is only addictive if you do it to the exclusion of other things. And I certainly didn't mean to offend...that is why I asked if you had read up on addiction. I am also confused as to why you felt that I had simply repeated your message..I didn't think I was. In any case, it is true that if you find something that makes you feel better, there is nothing inherently wrong with that. Aspirin is a good way to relieve a headache. But if your headaches are the result of a brain tumor, aspirin won't help in the long run. And if the aspirin itself causes health problems, again, it won't help. You may answer "duh" again, but from your message I did not get the sense that you understood what I was trying to communicate. There are other ways to "cure the brain tumor" besides indulging in addictive behavior. Certainly therapy is one way; meditation and/or religious practice is another way. Almost anything, can be addictive, if it is practiced in an exclusionary way. Hope I explained myself better. BTW, from your preface I thought you were going to describe some horrible experience that you had in childhood, inflicted on you by your parents. While your parents' experiences were certainly horrific, I was relieved that my assumption was incorrect. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:53:37 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Summary of the "Burning Shadows" Game (longish) Walkter, Stephen, Psybernauts: I promised I would post a "condensed" version of the WaterBird Game which Stephen Calhoun and myself played on this list a while back, and here it is. I hope it will allow others to get a sense of the excitement which Steven and I felt as the Game unfolded, by presenting the essence of our Game in a *much* shorter and more concentrated format than that provided by the 50 or so pages of the complete text... Two players play this Game by alternately assigning ten "ideas" -- texts, images, musics -- to the ten positions of the WaterBird board. The purpose is to choose these ten ideas as if one were selecting ten stones for a Japanese sand garden, and to place them in such a way that one can meditate on the ripples and eddies between them. To get the sense of the Game as a whole, imagine these various ideas as they are played in turn -- the "strange angels", the "peculiar people", the sword, the poet's cry to an angel in the teeth of a gale, the awakening to "burning shadows", the knife and wound and so forth -- as speaking to one another, each one clarifying, echoing or denying the others which are linked to it along the lines of the board. Glimpse, if you will, not just the ideas themselves, but those "ripples and eddies" between them... * Here, then, is the WaterBird board as it exists before the start of play... [If the image below doesn't look like a neat square tipped up on one corner, you are probably viewing it with a "variable spaced" typeface, and need to convert it to a "monospaced" font such as Courier in your word processor to see the form of the board clearly. I recommend putting it into Courier 10 point type, as 12 point is too wide for some screens.] The WaterBird Board 4 * |** * | *** * | **** * | ***** * | ****** * | ******* * | ******** 2 --------------+-------------- 6 * | ** | *******| * * | **** | ******| * * | ****** | *****| * * | ********| ****| * * | ******|*** ***| * * | ****|******* **| * * | ************* *| * 1 --------------+-------------- 8 ************* 9 ------------ 10 * | **|********* *| * * | ****|******* **| * * | ******|*** ***| * * | ********| ****| * * | ****** | *****| * * | **** | ******| * * | | *******| * 3 --------------+-------------- 7 * | ******** * | ******* * | ****** * | ***** * | **** * | *** * |** 5 * Assuming that you now have the board up and clearly visible, here's the Game that Stephen and I played... This particular Game turned out to be a highly evocative one, circling around the issue of consciousness on the one hand, and the nature of the unconscious processes on the other -- processes which have the power to turn a man into an angel or a beast... * Move One: Stephen began the Game by playing in position 3 on the board: :: No, no, it is the three strange angels :: Admit them, Admit them." This is taken from a longer poem by DH Lawrence, called "Song of a Man Who Has Come Through". The poem talks about "the wind that blows through me", a wind which he hopes will carry him -- if he is keen and hard like the tip of a wedge -- splitting "the rock" so that "the wonder" will be revealed. And then he hears a knocking and is at first fearful -- then realizes "it is the three angels"... * Move Two: The first move in a WaterBird Game sets the initial tone, obviously, but it can't *connect* with any other moves. The player who goes second has a choice: s/he can move in a position that doesn't connect with the first move, and set a very different tone, or s/he can move into a position which does connect with the first, and establish some kind of link with it. Since I didn't recognize the poem, I was working only with the exact words that Stephen had quoted, and decided to play "a peculiar people" in position 2. I mentioned to Stephen that the phrase comes from I Peter 2: 9: :: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, :: a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him :: who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. and said that at one point in my life, this particular verse had come to mean the "hippies" for me, because we were a indeed"generation" -- famous for it, in fact -- and a strange kind of freelance "priesthood", a "nation" in the sense of Woodstock Nation, and perhaps the most *peculiar* bunch of people you could hope to meet... So my move "a peculiar people" carries a direct echo of Stephen's "strange angels". * Move Three: Stephen's next move was an image rather than a text -- the Game is fundamentally a multi-media Game, and moves can be visual, musical, textual or numerical -- and specifically the image of a sword, which he placed smack dab in the center of the board, in position 8. * Move Four: I couldn't figure out a direct association between Stephen's "sword" and my "peculiar people", although the "sword of discrimination" can separate "darkness" from "light" -- but there is certainly at least one instance of an angel carrying a sword -- the angel who guards the Garden of Eden in Genesis has a fiery sword... But by now, Stephen had posted the rest of the DH Lawrence poem on which his first move was based, and Lawrence's phrase "Not I, not I, but the wind that blows through me!" reminded me of another "poet's wind" -- wind being a common metaphor for inspiration -- the storm wind that the poet Rilke tells us was blowing around Castle Duino one day, and which seemed almost to speak to him, giving him the first lines of his magnificent long poem "The Duino Elegies": :: Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels :: hierarchies? My move consisted of these two lines, but the poem continues: :: and even if one of them pressed me :: suddenly against his heart: I would be consumed :: in that overwhelming existence. For beauty is nothing :: but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, :: and we are so awed because it serenely disdains :: to annihilate us. Every angel is terrifying. This move, it seemed to me, fitted nicely in position 5, linking with "sword" somewhat indirectly, since the angel which "serenely disdains to annihilate us" sounds very like the angel with the fiery sword -- and it's certainly a "strange" angel when compared with the cute cherubs we see on cards at Valentine's Day. But the most interesting part of the linkage here, it seems to me, is that between Lawrence's "wind that blows through me" and the wind that was blowing at Duino when Rilke wrote his lines. * Move five: Stephen, meanwhile, had posted a variety of associations that were relevant to his own moves -- some material on sword fighting, a comment on the links between DH Lawrence's reference to the Hesperides, with its golden apples, and the Garden of Eden, with its forbidden fruit, and so forth. And he confirmed my sense that the sword was a "sword of discrimination", quoting a Jungian author, Edinger, and a Gnostic Gospel, the Gospel of Thomas, to the effect that the metaphorical sword of developing consciousness is that which cuts a child free of a too great reliance on family, and allows him or her to become a distinct and individual "person" in their own right... Stephen then played the phrase "I awake: I see burning shadows" in position 9. Again, this seemed to me to be an evocative move. Stephen's images, the "strange angels", the "sword", the phrase "I awake: I see burning shadows", all seem to have a peculiar intensity which I have tried to match with my own moves -- it seems to me that it's this *intensity* which connects them to the other positions on the board, not a particular set of logical connections. * Move six: And so I played... "knife and wound" in position 4. The phrase comes from the recently released film, Mary Reilly, a retelling of the Jekyll and Hyde story. Towards the end of the film, Dr Jekyll says: :: You see, I always wanted to be both the knife and the wound. I think that's an incredibly powerful image in its own right, and it brings a slightly different twist to the Game -- since "Dr Jekyll / Mr Hyde" is about a split personality, one half of whom is a killer. So the "knife" in this case, though still symbolic, is demonic rather than angelic... * Move seven: Steve responded with a song, "Aj ondas que eu vin veer", in position 7. He gave us the lyrics: :: Waves that I came to see, :: Ah waves say unto me :: Why my lover lingers away from me? :: O waves that ebb and swell, :: Will you not to me tell :: Why my lover lingers away from me? and said that the troubador Martin Codax wrote this song in the 13th century, telling us that the troubadors introduced "the feminine aspect" into western culture by means of such songs -- as a sort of counterpoint to the "masculine" brutality of the crusades -- giving rise to the "courtly love" tradition which has influenced our understanding of the "feminine" ever since... See: Denis de Rougemont, *Love in the Western World*, for a fuller explanation of how all this came about... * Move eight: I played "niche of the lance" in position 1. The phrase comes from Gerard Manley Hopkins's poem, "The Wreck of the Deutschland". Hopkins is writing about St. Francis, who reportedly experienced the "stigmata" -- bearing in his own body the wounds of his crucified Lord -- in the course of a vision in which he saw Christ carried by a seraph: Joy fall to thee, Father Francis, drawn to the Life that died; With the gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance, his Lovescape crucified and seal of his seraph-arrival! This move links with "three strange angels" in 3, since a seraph is an angel of high rank, with "a peculiar people" in 2, since both Hopkins and Francis were members of religious orders, and with the image of the "sword" in 8. Indirectly, it also reverberates with Rilke's "Every angel is terrifying" in 5 and with "knife and wound" in position 4, since the Christ of the Last Supper and Crucifixion is both sacrificing priest and sacrificial victim -- compare the full text of move six: "You see, I always wanted to be both the knife and the wound"... * Move nine: Steve then examined the various "triangles of ideas" which were now configured on the board, noting the centrality of the image of the "sword", and placed a picture of an "infant girl" in position 6. He noted: > She is climbing up, taking a step, but one foot is on the ground. > I know this young lady. She is a daughter of close friends. She is > very wise for her age. For our purposes, her name is Sophie. * Move ten: Finally, I played "a heart's-clarion" in 10, from Hopkins' poem: "That Nature is a Heraclitean Fire and of the Comfort of the Resurrection". Hopkins has just described at some length how insignificant the human individual is in the greater sweep of things, whom "death blots black out; nor mark / Is any of him at all so stark / But vastness blurs and time beats level." Then, in a commanding voice, "Enough!" he writes, "the Resurrection, / a heart's clarion!" The links claimed here are: between Hopkins' phrase "world's wildfire, leave but ash" and Stephen's "burning shadows" in 9... between the song of the troubador, "Ah waves say unto me / Why my lover lingers away from me" in 7, the cry surely of every questing soul, and Hopkins' affirmation of the resurrection and thus the return or rediscovery of the Beloved... and between the child, Sophie, named after the gnostic embodiment of salvific wisdom in 6, and the salvific wisdom of the resurrection body in Hopkin's poem... viewing the resurrection in question somewhat gnostically as taking place in *this* heaven here now rather than *that* future heaven... together with an echo of the quotation from Hopkins' poem "Wreck of the Deutschland" at one end of the board in 1 with this quote from Hopkins in 10, to give a sense of completion to the game as a whole with this final move. * This brings the Game to a close, and we can now view the completed board pictured here (again, if your mail reader doesn't use a monospaced "typewriter" font such as Courier, you will need to switch to a font of this kind to see the board clearly): knife and wound 4 * |** * | *** * | **** * | ***** * | ****** * | ******* peculiar people | ***** sophie 2 --------------+-------------- 6 * | ** | *******| * * | **** | ******| * * | ****** | *****| * * | ********| ****| * * | ******|*** ***| * * | ****|******* **| * niche of | [sword]***** I awake: I see a heart's 1 --------------+-------------- 8 ------------- 9 ------------10 the lance | **|****** burning shadows, clarion * | ****|******* **| * * | ******|*** ***| * * | ********| ****| * * | ****** | *****| * * | **** | ******| * three strange angels | my lover lingers away from me 3 --------------+-------------- 7 * | ******** * | ******* * | ****** * | ***** * | **** * | *** who...would hear me? 5 As I mentioned above, the trick to understanding the Game is to hold the various ideas together in the mind's eye -- particularly those ideas which are "linked" along the lines of the board -- in such a way that they "play off" one another... It is the harmony and counterpoint *between* ideas, rather than the ideas themselves, which is the real "meat" of the Game... * I'd like to thank Walter once again for the hospitality he provided on-list for this Game, and Steve once again both for playing the Game with me, and for the very intuitive way in which he played it. I would like to refer those of you who may be interested to the much longer and more detailed version of this Game to be found at Steve's web site, beginning at: >>> http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html and also to the dazzling color version of the final board which he put up at: >>> http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG5.html Those interested to learn more about the Games in general, or to print boards to play a round on, are likewise invited to go to my own web pages at: Finally, as a "historical" footnote, I'd like to say that of the fifteen or so Games that have now been played on four lists -- and the ten or so others played by private e-mail -- this was the first Game in which visual and musical moves were posted as such, in digital form, rather than being simply "named" to their respective positions. Thus when Steve played "my lover lingers away from me" in position 7, he also posted the song itself, as a 1.1mb sound file, and his "sword" image in position 8 was posted as an image file, as was the picture of Sophie in position 6. These were all "firsts" from my point of view as the Game Designer, and I'm very appreciative of Stephen's diligence in playing the Game this way, because it brings the whole project much closer to the web-based multi-media artform which I conceive it can be... * Best wishes, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:05:14 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: social microcosm Barbara, Sigh! I need to be working on some academic papers for the next week or so, and a semester evaluation, and I was determined to stay out of this arena for now. However, your question touches on issues that I am addressing in that other life, and I might as well get my thoughts out of my head and into yours! (BTW -- thank you for reaching out to me, both here and offline. I will try to answer your message soon.) <> I was referring to the way that people replicate their customary ways of interacting with others in groups. Group psychotherapy is itself a society limited in time and space; how can a group of people sitting in a circle talking about their lives in the wider world constitute a society? What is a society? A group of people bound together by geography, history, consensus, values, need.... A therapy group comes together in a particular place, develops a shared history through their week-to-week encounters, are bound by their investment in the process, endorse by their participation the group values of sharing and self-exploration, exist to meet the needs of the participants for help with the problems that brought them to the group. It is an artificial, contrived reality in some ways, true -- but a reality nonetheless, and one that often has a profound influence on the psyches of the people who live for a time within its borders. Yalom believes that people in groups eventually reveal their way of being in the world as they engage in the process of reciprocal interaction with others. There are constraints -- lack of time to fully play out interactional dynamics, the lack of behavioral contexts that often stimulate interaction or insight,etc. -- but the process is real, and valuable, within these constraints. Group experience also encourages a focus on understanding one's reactions to others, which many people do not do in everyday life. Here, too, we are a society. We meet in a geographical neverland, a landscape bound by intellect and spirit -- our dialogue creates a shared history over time -- our agreement to the rules of this process constitute our consensus -- we share a belief in the values of self-discovery, personal growth, and mutual support -- we share a need to learn, to be heard, to connect. Physical nonverbal communication is not part of the experience we share, but we have opportunities here that do not usually exist in "real-life." Physical encounters demand an immediate response, even if the response is to walk away; it is difficult to ignore someone who is standing right in front of you. Here, I respond where I will, and there is time to form a response in more depth than is usually possible in our busy modern world. Here, too, we interact -- and here, too, we are encouraged to step back and critically reflect on those interactions, and on our own responses. I reveal myself with more than words here -- for example, I notice my desire to nurture others (sharing Rilke's words with those who are in pain). I see again how I sometimes stay hidden behind my own words (neglecting, in my response, to articulate the fact that Robert's midlife crisis awakened feelings about my own life -- the death of two marriages, the more recent death of a corporate career, the insistant voices of my own orphan children). I recognize the gratification I feel when my name and my words are echoed by others. I note with amusement my continued difficulty with conflict (feeling thoroughly chastised by Wilbur, who was not even speaking to me -- and being afraid, as I write, that these words will draw his attention to me next!). We are a social microcosm, the same in many ways as the physical one in which meaning is often overlooked because nonverbal cues are too loud. Different, certainly -- but real, and a powerful agent of change. Mila -- is any of this relevant to your project? Walter -- any thoughts to add? Marie (now I really must get back to work!) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 12:53:31 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Closure in the Aion Reading Group. I am forwarding this to Psyber-L, *** Note Carefully! this is a post about _another_ list , not this list! *** ~~~ All on the Aion Reading Group list, I suggest we close the list! Ha! Fancy that coming from me. I have been an advocate for keeping it open, as I value what people _do_ put here. however the silence of 96 is what we have put here too, and that speaks loudly. I suggest we do not go out with the whimper, but that we put in the effort to make a worthwhile closure. A closure could include: * Sharing of the higlights, the fondest memories. * The succinct saying of what is unsaid. * Some processing of what we might have done differently. * Discussing what is to be done with the archives. (I nearly said ashes). * Plans for the future. I suggest we keep this to the point and not open up at this time of closing. If new energy emerges we can use that to plan future events and find ways to stay in contact outside of this list. A new interest in AION could benefit from a new structure. This might sound like a strange post to the 4 or 5 new people on the list! I think you will catch the drift as (if) we make our conclusion. Also there may be some people no longer here, who might return for this occasion. ~~~~ To join the list ! (this must be an occasion to remember -- joining to part!) send email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the text write: Subscribe AION ~~~ I will forward this post to the Psybernet Mailing List (Psyber-L ) where there are several who have been and gone here and also to Carroll who I know is not subbed at the moment. If you know of others, please forward this to them. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 14:18:52 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: - intense, emotionally rewarding, and intimate - All, Wilbur! Just as I see your powerful post, you couch it in the frame work of illness model. I don't care what you think about reality that post impacted on me. I saw it vividly, body language, smell, and all, you and the whole family! It also bought to mind vividly the story of my birth in 1944, when Holland was occupied by Nazis, and there was starvation all around us. My parents took enormous risks to feed me and themselves. (Puts the danger we feel here into perspective!) also My mother was crazy, manic and depressed at times. Hard for me to come home to. My father could not handle that at all well, and was given some idiotic advice from the medical profession. I escaped in to the hills. Led to me being - immersed - in that, coming to New Zealand and climbing in the alps here. Addiction? Perhaps, but like you, I'd say: > (and they are mine, and NO you can't take them away from me!) * > As a warning, I cried when I wrote some of this. That is body language I understand! I do not doubt your authenticity for a moment. Wilbur, you wrote that post: Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:49:32 -0400 ~~~ On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:00:47 -0500 "Steven B. Hoath" wrote: > Without wishing to argue, I will state that I > wholeheartedly disagree with those who say such electronic communication > isn't "real" because it lacks face-to-face contact. At about the same time you, Steven were writing, almost as if arguing with the aspect of Wilbur that denies the reality of this medium. Note too that this is ANZAC day here, the day we remember the war. I call that synchronicity. The acausal connection I think you are speaking of Judith. The debate about what is real and what is not, what is love and what is not, has continued. It is closely linked to the discussion about addiction, after all, from the outside love can look like addiction, and it is close to it, it is a cure for pain. An interesting debate. Could the debate itself be a move away from authenticity? It is a worthwhile debate, but has it moved us away from the depth of sharing of painful experience? I also note the heartfelt response to the feelings expressed, and I think we are doing a great job. Still, in a subtle way are we subject to the cultural norm of moving into debate, and away from "relate"? Am I doing it now? Steven, > My feeling is that this cyberrelationship must be > sorted out very quickly with respect to the issues of addiction, illusion, > reality, and personal growth. How are you doing with this? You seem to have the real / illusion dillema within your own being -- what happens to you as we work with that here? How is the connection here? The debate? The advice? Steven, you also said: > the > lack of physical contact and cues seems to amplify other channels (similar > to the amplication of touch for the blind person) resulting in an > interpersonal connection which is a highly intense, emotionally rewarding, > and intimate. The possibilities for the expansion of love alone are staggering. That is your experience. I believe it. I have a similar sense _right now_ being in this list. It is "interpersonal connection which is a highly intense, emotionally rewarding, and intimate", it affects my life too. I am at home -absorbed- here and Kate has gone off on her own with her horses. We are handling it. BTW Robert, I checked out how Kate saw the growth of our relationship, yes, it is mutual. She described its growh as meandering, weaving its way. That fits for me. I told her about the discussion we had. It was fun. ~~~~ Laurel, On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:39:07 +0100 you wrote: > I have loved in cyberspace the way I was never able to in real life. I never > trusted anybody enough in real life with who I really am, to believe that > the real me could be loved. As if mplifying what Steven was writing around the same time. You beautifully put the theme of our intense discussions: > For me the mask I wear is not in cyberspace but in *real* life. > I can hide behind what I outwardly appear to be in life. [snip] >The man I love has another life, one where I cannot > enter and there he wears the mask of his own choosing. He cannot so easily > hide behind it here...which is strange for you would have thought the > reverse to be true. > I love him for knowing who I really am. A small paradox happens however: > Ultimatly..in cyberspace there is no pretence. You cannot run from who you > truly are here. It makes itself known. That is when you can look into the > mirror of your mind and truly know yourself. > > > Oh by the way Fred..where are you.. got your last cryptic priv > email..waiting for a post along the same lines. (If you dare) Yes! People have a way of disappearing here that rl can’t match. Enough for now . . . though there is so much more to say. As many have already said: I value the deep sharing. As Stephen HooN said: Awe. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 22:27:31 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Steven B. Hoath" Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia Wilbur, Wilbur, Wilbur... It's rare that I meet someone so opposed to my way of thinking that I can say NO to every word and thought he voices. I do thank you for your response, however...it makes me chuckle if nothing else. But are you really serious? Have you listened with your heart to Stephen and Laurel's replies? Have you paid attention to the spaces between their words...to the nonverbal cues? Did you hear the pain in my dilemma of discovering that I loved someone in cyberspace as well as in real life? Did you understand what I meant when I said perception was linked as much to the intellect as to sensation? (This is perhaps how one can perceive so clearly in cyberspace.) Most of all, is it possible that you don't recognize the vast potential for Love in "Psyberia"...that you don't understand how online communication can lead to the development of true intimacy? Before you close your mind...I thought I heard a *snap*...let me toss out a random observation. I reviewed the letter I wrote that prompted your reply...never once did I mention the word "sex" (although I happen to like it). To be fair, I did mention that my cyberlover and I had "made love as blobs"...hehe. Your response, however, contained 7 separate references to netsex, cybersex, phone sex, etc. This makes me wonder...Do you think you might be confusing online intimacy with RAW NAKED ANIMAL LUST? [Sorry, Wilbur, but I can't help poking fun at you...guess I'm lucky I'm out of reach of your masculine judo chops...:)] Anyway, Wilbur...I'm going to suggest that you look at the responses you've received...and ask yourself if you might be missing something...something very important. And next time, before you judge, remember the words of Herbert Spencer: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance---that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Oh, and Wilbur.... ...lighten up. Steven :-P _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 23:29:18 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Regina Garson Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia Stephen, > >Let's imagine a person who can *only* communicate *to you* using email. >Such a person is deaf, dumb, paralyzed from the neck down. They type with a >pencil stuck in their mouth. They spend most of the day in front of their >computer... A couple years back I had a passing acquaintance with such a person. She was a beautiful writer, incredibly intelligent but because of her disabilities is/was unable to live what we consider a normal life. Because of her expertise with the computer and words she has been able to build a life for herself, to being self sufficient. Her love stories were some of the most poignant I have ever heard. Knowing too well the real world, I do not know if she will ever live them in real life. The internet has given her perhaps the nearest to a normal life she will ever attain. In her, I became very aware the opportunities the net brings to so many. At least where I am from, we are a physical world. No matter what is inside our head, we will first be judged from our bodies. For the first time I know of, technology has given the physically disabled at least a chance of interacting on an equal basis, a chance to have a life, a chance to connect. Even if we only call it an illusion, do they. > >For three years this person and you exchange stories, recountings of >experiences, artistic expressions, poetry, dreams; you argue and resolve; >at times you are moved to sorrow; other times to joy. > >Then, one day, you go visit this person. Your heart races in anticipation. >You go to this person's house and are let in by their caretaker. That >person leads you to your cyber friend's room's door. > >The person is not there! But a computer screen is blazing a screen saver's >message: > >It says: >"I love you." >Not true intimacy? Not complete communication? I cannot agree. That screen >saver's blazing is complete communication, and such a moment is fully >intimate; And it may have been all that could ever be given. Although I'm not sure that's exactly what you meant. Your posting struck a nerve, I think that one individual made me so aware of the positive side and potentials for human connectedness the net offers. Individuals whom societies have denied a real human and emotional existence can now have it, even if only in cyber space. For some reason of all the technological developments I have seen in my life this potential brings me the most excitement. Regina Garson Magic Stream http://fly.hiwaay.net/~garson/ ______________________________________________________________ >For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to >LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > > > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 23:59:19 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Vicki Colker Subject: Lost a Rilke quotation mentioned here. . . Hi, fellow Psyberians! A week or two ago someone on this list (a female, I believe) used a prose quotation from Rilke to emphasize her point. I accidentally discarded this posting, and I was hoping someone might find it for me . . .please? I don't really remember it precisely, but it seemed absolutely perfect to illustrate the need in a relationship for multiple dimensions. Was he discussing emotions? I don't recall. I'm sorry to be so vague, but perhaps one of you will have saved the quotation in question. . . I hope. Thank you! Vicki _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 03:13:05 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia At 10:27 PM 4/26/96 -0500, you wrote: >Wilbur, Wilbur, Wilbur... > >It's rare that I meet someone so opposed to my way of thinking that I can >say NO to every word and thought he voices. I do thank you for your >response, however...it makes me chuckle if nothing else. Well, just to put a little reality on this, my girlfriend and I discussed the possibility of this sort of thing when we had been together for about 2 weeks. We have both had cyber "loves" (if you don't think that sex is involved, they why other to call it love?). My girlfriend and I discussed the realities and lack of reality in any relationship, online or face to face. We discussed how we cared enough about ourselves to promise that we wouldn't ever do that to each other. I remain faithful to my relationship with my girlfriend, (live in, 5 years) for the simple reason that it's a good thing for me! There have been discussions of how some people need to have another before they can leave one relationship.. for me, I can't stand to have a relationship that isn't genuine. I would rather be alone than be in a false relationship. When I left my wife there wasn't another there for me, and when I left, it was 6 months before I even talked with another woman. I've come to understand that this is very unusual, but it does provide me with a clear conscience, and therefore, quite a bit of clarity about what what I feel in my relationships. My relationships become more full and more real the more honest that I am in them. And it's been my experience that trying to be intimatly involved with more than one person means that I'm intimate with no one, including myself. So like I said in the last post, I'm not going to continue to try be intimate here with a group of friends/strangers that think that I don't percieve where they are or what there postions are. I percieve it all too well. I also percieve that this isn't doing me any good, and is wasting a great deal of my time. As to the "lighten up", comment, hey, "Get Real!" Which would you rather say at the end of your life, "It had meaning" or "I took it easy?" Guess which one I choose? Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 03:13:00 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Wilbur Streett Subject: Re: social microcosm > I recognize the gratification I feel when my name and my words are echoed by >others. I note with amusement my continued difficulty with conflict (feeling >thoroughly chastised by Wilbur, who was not even speaking to me -- and being >afraid, as I write, that these words will draw his attention to me next!). Critical thought isn't always meant as a chastisement. The conflict comment is one that I've noted before from other people, and believe me, I live with that conflict inside me every single day. Conflict produces the thoughts that I have, since I have internalized the conflict that my parents went through, and what they taught me. I got about 20 messages today based on the 4 messages that I wrote yesterday. Some of them quite interesting, others that would just generate yet more "chastisement" because of their nonsensical nature. To be brutally honest, these relationships are not real enough to me to be bothered to respond to every thought that I generated. Were we face to face, I can imagine the response to what I've said so far. I watched a therapist today make it about half way through the description of my parents lives.. and then jump to her feet because she couldn't stand the emotion that was generated. Were we face to face, and I were to have gotten the responses that I did, (and not one to the conflict of my parents..), I would have already responded to them, but that's not a possibility in cyberspace, because the nuance and direct communcation that would be required to express all that I feel isn't possible in the written word, unless I were to spend a day for every 3 pages of response. (like any good novelist that struggles to put the expression of feeling into words..) The reality is that my internal conflicts are what makes me the driven person that I am, and also give me the clarity of vision to understand and respond to the posts that I've seen so far. My internal conflicts can be resolved, and this medium isn't immersive enough for me to express all that I feel, or even reach for the answers. They don't wait for email responses, and I can't be bothered with sending messages on topics that don't sustain my life. Netsex is old, relationships over modems are old, disconnected communication is old. As a child I spent a year trading reel to reel tapes with my father, when he was away on military service. The day that he returned, I was so unable to express what I felt that I went crazy. But that was because I realized that the tapes where not real, not fulfilling, and that I had been cheated. I couldn't make up for the year that I had lost, I couldn't ever share the realization's that I'd had, and that I would never be able to make up for what had been taken away from me. I ended up doing things that my discomfort drove me too, including climbing the large tree in the back of my house. Which I fell out of, and broke my arm. So those of you that would try to tell me that I don't understand the reality of disconnected conversation should try to understand that I just don't give a shit, mostly because I understand it all too well. For those of you that wish to insist that this is "real life", I wish you happiness in your online explorations. I only hope find a way to balance your lives before you discover that the cyber fruit that you eat steals the sustainance out of your lifes. As for me, I'm much more than a keyboard attachment. As for Laurel's comment that I'm a typical programmer, perhaps you all should recognize that this entire CyberSpace world that you are now living/conversing in was created by and based on the dreams and understandings of guys just like me. This entire world is a creation and an extension of the spiritual world of programmers. We understand the reality of this space, both the technical and the spiritual. We understand the addicitive nature of this space, after all, we created it to amuse and fulfill our own desires. Desires that you have been ensnared in. I posted an initial message about how this forum wasn't focused enough, how it would rapidly work it's way out of control. Now people feel threatened, and I'm in a position where I can't express myself for the fear of trampling the spirits of those that are reeling from the effects of the drug that I call technology. Of course, there's also the limited bandwidth, and lack of immediate feedback the hampers this communcation, but those are all old friends that I've experienced before. It's a pity that the viable threads that I was engaging in where quite interesting, but that is a part of the drug, the addiction. But I've also come to understand that the internal struggle that I've lived with all of my life isn't something that can be shared in a public forum. I've tried three times, and it just doesn't work, I don't need to create the same sort of backlash here as I've recieved from other forums.. (both online and otherwise) besides, I've grown accustomed to not being able to share myself, and I now understand that it's the lies that bring us together, and the truth that tears us apart. So I'm off to my chosen focus once again, putting a human face on technology. If you think that technology in the form of Cyberspace is addicting, just imagine how bad the addiction will be when you can't tell the difference between the computer and a human face. I'll get around to responding to the email's that I thought were interesting in private in the next few days, but I can see that I'm going to limit my public involvement in this forum, I may perhaps even unsubscribe before I come to find the devil in this group. I already know the devil that lurkers inside myself, I don't need to bring it out and parade it around in Psyberia. But don't be concerned, because since I recognize my own devil, and have overcome it, I live a wonderful life. Wilbur --------------------------------------- Putting a human face on technology. ;-) --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 07:57:37 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Re: rilke Vicki, You wrote: <> That would be me. <> This one? "All emotions are pure which gather you and lift you up; that emotion is impure which siezes only one side of your being and so distorts you." Rainer Maria Rilke <> You're welcome! Marie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 08:19:32 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: social microcosm Wilbur writes, in part, >Conflict produces the thoughts >that I have, since I have internalized the conflict that my parents went >through, and what they taught me. >The reality is that my internal conflicts are what makes me the driven >person that I am, and also give me the clarity of vision to understand and >respond to the posts that I've seen so far. >I already know the devil that lurkers >inside myself, I don't need to bring it out and parade it around in >Psyberia. But don't be concerned, because since I recognize my own devil, >and have overcome it, I live a wonderful life. > >Wilbur This is rich and revealing. On one hand you've expressed your self well in a space where the issue of trust doesn't seem to be resolved; this seems courageous. On the other hand you have judged your peers here, made unambiguous statements about Cyberspace and delivered it to us from on high. As I have seen time and again, contributed to myself, and witnessed this dance in mailing lists before, this has led to the fulfillment of identifications -going both ways. The result is we split and defend against your judgements, which is not to say they don't hit home. Obviously, it might strike clearly against the addict's denial. However, in drawing the line, as you have done, you are faced with being the "boy the parents don't pay attention to,". We unconsciously group together to become the "parents who don't get it,". And then we cycle the judgements-at-loggerheads back and forth. And, it becomes painful for everybody. It pains me to recognize my own unconscious patterns of response. (Yet, I've learned a lot about them by being a participant in Cyber-forums because it is a second place where I can reflect and learn.) *** Nonetheless, you will find it hard here to unequivocally judge other peoples' experiences and not escape the group's sense that this judgement misses the mark. Better to state clearly your experiences and the lessons implied by those experience for us. That said, I, (we), may have to adjust to the reality that when I parade around in no clothes, there might be a little boy in the crowd willing to say so; and who must. *** Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 08:57:02 EDT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Lurker's brief visit Hi Franz, Your post came only to me, not to the list. Please re post, it is a great one to have as it summarises so much. I have included it below without quote marks in case you need it. Walter ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sorry, I just pressed the reply button. Hi all of you out there, after one month or so of reading many communications posted on the Psyber-L I should like to pay my dues (as a lurker) by participating in the discussion with a few thoughts on some of the themes. First I should like to thank Walter for making this forum available. The messages posted here are really exceptional and it is a pleasure reading them. I imagine that I am sitting with you on this Greek Island in a grove where I had experienced group meetings on "self-awareness". You provide me with a lot of ideas and references which I am going to follow up. I was especially moved by the various letters concerning *midlife crisis* and *experiences in the corporate environment*. *To Wilbur on tilting at windmills* >>My current answer is to start a business from scratch, create new technology, and then build a corporate culture that doesn't have the same problems as the ones that I've seen (and I've seen quite a few).<< Just recently I read about the corporate culture of SAP a software company founded by disenchanted IBMers 20 y ago. This company took off with a flat hierarchical structure having three levels (board of directors, group leaders,members), only, leaving a lot of space for individual growth. But the article pointed out that this form of organization has reached its limits at the present size of personnel since it requires more and more time to be spent on inter-group discussions on the organization of the work. This time has to be put up by the employees in addition to the time for work on the products. The Japanese corporate culture operates within a similar frame work with a vertical hierarchy but many discussion between different layers. Japanese employees show one of the highest number of working hours per year when compared to other industrialized countries. Part of these working hours are used for the creation of group harmony. The system works in the Japanese environment. I doubt if it can be imported into the Western culture. You might succeed within the closed system of a small company with a group of people (friends) who share your visions; but dealing with the outside world you have to play according to their rules, I am afraid. In this context Laotse,the Chinese of 2500 y ago, is quoted to have said something like " the secret of life is neither contradiction nor criticism but to cunningly pass through the holes which exist everywhere in life". Well, some truth may be in there, even for Westerners. *Midlife crisis* A catchy phrase coined by some psychologists which has the power of self fulfilling prophecy. Your self esteem requires you to have a m.c. Now, average life expectancy has increased; so, does the midlife crisis also shift to later years? May be we should start talking about end-life crisis, too, or when life after death has been proven by scientific means about post-life crisis (Karl Marx may be a case for study). Seriously, I think that periods of crisis are intimately woven into our lives, not necessarily at the middle of our life (which we are not going to know, by definition). If we follow transactional analysis we are led to the importance of the script: "Thus, the script is a complete plan for living, offering both strictures and structures"(E.Berne). In the course of time, our script may become old-fashioned, obsolete, not adapted to the changes occurring in ourselves. The attempt of revision is painful. *anonymity and intimacy* The psyberspace is anonymous and intimate at the same time. We can express our most intimate feelings to people whom by normal measures of probability we are never going to meet f2f. Reading Robert de C`s reply to >>I am curious about your marriage; has your mid-life crisis caused you to question your union?<< I felt a certain response in me, resonances. But is this different from the emotional excitement I get reading a novel. In both cases the persons behind the names are there in two dimensions only, paper or screen. What is a name, does it make this person more real to me? Dr. Klemm complained about a lack of privateness due to the fact that the computers will spit out, sometimes at inconvenient times, whatever has been fed into them. XMEFF is a screen name for John. *psychology of e-mail project* Here is something we might get something firm in our hands. Data, statistics, theory. I hope it materializes. Fritz (screen name) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 13:20:29 GMT Reply-To: judithb@sbc1.com Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Judith Buerkel Organization: Small Business Connects, Inc. Subject: Generalizing our experience Comments: cc: wstreett@monmouth.com Wilbur , I hear you when you say < And it's been my experience that trying to be intimatly involved with more than one person means that I'm intimate with no one, including myself.> The key words here are *my experience*. IMHO that is all everyone engaged in this thread has to bring to the moment. It is my observation (read- thru my perceptions) of this conversation that the issue of brining one's experience to the space and then having a discussion about what that experience is only brings each of us to how we are moving thru life, our issues, our value systems and underlying assumptions. As a parallel intention here in this list there is the exploration of cyberscape experience and what that is. The tricky part as I see it comes when we then generalize and apply it. And in the generalization process we are holding f2f as the measurement against which we evaluate. That brings very different information out of the process than if we explore this cyber experience on its on. But then this is the habituated scientific positivism research model which IMHO is a HUGE lurker and trickster here in psyberia;-) Interestingly from where I've been sitting and to the best of my limited ability to keep everyone and their contributions attributed to the correct person, there is an element of gender here lurking:-). Females tend the research says to place experience in a context, experiencing each context, making decisions based on the elements of the specific context, which means that each context could have very different experiences. Males tend to categorize based on a code or value system which they apply to experience (rule of law and reason). Very different. Which is what Carol Gilligan discovered initially when she repeated Kohlberg's research on moral development. The discussion here seems to resonate to this research. So you say There seem to be perceptions I percieve it all too well. I also percieve that this isn't doing me any good, and is wasting a great deal of my time.> What I have concluded from listening to the discussion here is that people are bringing these perceptions of their experience and evaluating not evaluating other's experience.(remembering I am a female and have the contextualized tendancy. To say *I perceive it all too well* has an element of judgement which is based in your experience and value system. Good for you. To make a committment to your current relationship and your personal growth is to hold sacred your value system and your way of being, exploring your way of being. That other's have their way of being, what they hold sacred, and how they explore this experience we call life is as valid from their point of view as you from yours IMHO. Again the tricky issue in cyberspace is generalizing which makes for a whole other thread, eh?. To conclud that this thread isn't doing you *any good* speaks to the incompatibility issue for me. As in birds of a feather. You simply don't agree with what is being said and other's don't agree with you.And as I said earlier at a superordinate level it can be framed as a moral development issue. I will say that your latest revelation about your relationship illuminates past postings for me. Now I know where your coming from. BTW some of my work involves using Action Reflection Learning methods to get at these kinds of issues. One of the structures used is initially to have everyone begin their comments with a list of the assumptions they are making before they bring their contributions to the table.We decode the assumptions first by asking *and why is that* after each assumption is voiced and fairly soon the person gets to the unconscious or unspoken assumption which is tripping all of us up. I've enjoyed everyone's contributions.Thoughprovoking. Be well, Judith -- Judith Buerkel | Business Connects: | THE online service for entreprenuers. judithb@sbc1.com | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400 Cleveland, OH 44113 | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:28:04 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Illusory love Hi everybody, >We create words from love...why not love from words. I have red the discussion on the cyber-love with a great interest. My first language is not English, it is Finnish, but I try to tell what I think of love created from words. When I was young I fell love in with writers, even in with some characters in the novels. My great love was Samuel Beckett. Once I dreamed that I had a amorous affair with him. It was so real. So sexual in the dream. But then I awoke. I thought that I have to write to him, but I never wrote, I was too timid. Some years ago I red a marvelous and poignant masterpiece by Canadian writer Elizabeth Smart "By Grand Central Station I sat Down and Wept". It is autobiographical story about herself, how she by chance found a volume of poetry by George Baker - "and fell passionately in love with him through the printed word". They met and , so begun a very tragic love affair. Baker was not so fine person as he was a poet. Lev Tolstoi has said, that the writer is putting in his novels the best part of himself, but very little or nothing is left to his family. As a writer and being a writer's daughter, too, I know that Tolstoi was in the right was. A good writer gives his or her innermost and authentic feelings to the readers, his or her words have meaning, and words have their roots in the reality. He or she is not a liar, not a deceiver. But alas, at the home he or she is quite different person as in books. He don't share his innermost feelings, he is mean and stingy, he is ego-centric, he is very awful human being, that same person whom the public loves! The home folks know his or her shadow-side very well - and the darker shadow, the brighter writer. I think that it is real love, if you can love someone despite of his dark shadow. It is truly realistic love. But when you fall in love on the cyber-space, you don't see shadows, you see only a bright one, who is putting on the screen his or her best side. It is romantic love, illusory love, but at any case it is love, and as true as dreams. But the awakening is perhaps harsh. Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 10:36:38 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: M-C, Jung, & apologies Barbara, Thank you for your consideration in responding to my post. >Robert, >my question had more to do with curiousity than personal interest. I am >getting an MA in Counseling and couples work is very interesting to me. I do understand the rationale for your question. I, too, took post graduate studies in counseling and therapy at the University here in Saskatchewan. As is probably evident by my posts, the focus was Rogers, Perls, (and a side-line journey with R.E.T.). I especially enjoyed the gestalt of "dream work" and "body dialogue". >I am happily married for the last three years, but have spent a great >deal of time in failed relationships and think that I have learned alot >about intimate relationships and what makes them work. I have been happily AND painfully married for 25 years. Much as it contributes to my lack of knowledge, I have very little time spent in failed relationships (the only experiences were from those tender *teen* years and within the context of social and work related *relation*. Marriage is a duality of feeling. When I speak of *crisis*, I speak of my re-evaluation of my needs, visions, acceptable *losses*. Do I know where this will lead? No! But then I am not gifted with prescience. >so my interest is mainly to see if I can be of any help. Thank you for your offer, but there was no request for help. I must apologize for the disclosure that was made. I failed to be totally upfront with everyone in making this disclosure. The disclosure is REAL. The motive was unstated. If we are to evolve as a community of sorts, we need to develop a sense of trust and authenticity. I risked (a minor risk since I am still for the most part, an anonymous ephemeral being in your cyberspace) with the disclosure, a calculated risk that has payed good dividends as far as our ability to stand back and look at what has happened here (our study of listserv psychology). I have my own counselor, a man I truly respect. So, I must graciously decline your offer. >So, all this leads to my definition of intimacy...that you are able to be >who you are in the relationship and still be accepted and loved. That >means, no role-playing. Before I respond to your words, Barbara, I must be careful to state that I have NO intention of causing you any stress, no wish to slight your thoughts. However, I would like you to hear my thoughts about what I hear and understand. Again, please do not take offense as none is offered. IMHO, every interaction is in some way role-playing. If I tried to be the teacher in my moments of being husband, the role would be inappropriate. As a teacher, I am authentic. As a poet, I am authentic. As a husband, I am authentic. As a father, I am authentic. I stand in relation to others with each contact that I make, I have a role. Each role finds its source in the holistic being that I am. As life changes us and we relflect those changes in our relations with others we experience *ripples*. Sometimes those ripples are minor, sometimes they are not. I think it was Laurel who said that we cannot but help to be honest at some level in every relationship -- who has such superb *control* as to present a total fiction? This is why the *masked ball* proposal by Walter will work its own magic. Even when we speak with *alternative* personalities, we will necessarily be speaking with part of our soul. As you speak to Stephen Hoath, you say: >True intimacy can only come with complete communication, one that includes the >non-verbal element. Also, be careful about what you are projecting onto >your friend in cyberspace...we have a tendency to project our other self Projections? Yes. But that is the nature of dialogue, discourse, intercourse, communion. Why the need to be *dispassionate* to *take care*. Life is a risk. Pain is intimate. Indifference is intimate. Intimacy is within the person who experiences intimacy. Intimacy is not an *objectified* or an *objectifiable* notion. Intimacy exists in spite of, as well as because of, f2f verbal/non-verbal interaction with another. What we create within is intimate. >My guess is that no matter what you have been through with your >soulmate, you do not really know her. I don't think that guessing is relevant. We know another only in as much as we are welcomed within their being. I stand face-to-face with many each day, day-in, day-out for extended periods of time. I do not *really know* them. I have spoken but for a few moments with another and felt that connection of kinship and brotherhood of *really knowing* them. I have met others in books and felt that same kinship, that same connection. I have met a few on-line who no matter how many dialogues, will remain unknowable to me. And then there are those who I meet here who have become part of the dialogue of who I am, and are therefore now know in ways that they share themselves with me. Barbara, I don't agree with you here. They do know each other, know each other as much, if not more than people get to know others (not ALL others -- qualified statement here) f2f. Barbara, you then sent a response to Wilbur that spoke to me of the need to engage in this dialogue with you (and the others as well -- remember that this is not a one-on-one dialogue). You said: >BTW, from your preface I thought you were going to describe some horrible >experience that you had in childhood, inflicted on you by your parents. >While your parents' experiences were certainly horrific, I was relieved >that my assumption was incorrect. Please, do not measure the souls of others with pre-conceived notions. Read our words, listen to our voices, they are not OBJECTS in black on your screen. They are vibrant, pulsating expressions of our psyche, shared and sensed in the dialogues here. Please do not take personal offense. But, what we do here is engage in experiential discovery of our collective psyche, we are not here in search of a free counselor. If I have judged (terrible word with terrible meanings) correctly, most of us are counselors already ourselves, counselors who enjoy f2f relationships with other counselors. If I have overstepped the boundaries of response here, please someone, let me know. I hope to hear your voice again in the future, Barbara. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 10:36:52 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Wilbur! WILBUR!! mon vieux ... Wilbur (and of course to the other Psyberians including the lurkers), I am astonished at the level of disclosure and brutal honesty that you have called forth here on PSYBER-L, an honesty that has its owm message to many of us who are *playing* at the game of *relationship* and *intimacy*. Before I speak many more words, I beg you to consider staying here. I need that honesty and voice that you project. I think we all need to *hear* those discordant voices that make us question those comfortable thoughts and illusions of reality. Do I agree with you? That is not the issue. What matter if all or none agree with your words, your experience? They are real, they are yours. >Critical thought isn't always meant as a chastisement. I agree. I accept critical thought as yet another inner voice that induces further thoughts with which to engage in the constant construction and reconstruction of my being. I grow and change. >I got about 20 messages today ... ... To be brutally >honest, these relationships are not real enough to me to be bothered to >respond to every thought that I generated. This sounds like a replay of the stream-of-consciousness babble. All the words have meaning--take offs of discordant thoughts weakly linked. However, in these babblings are value as well. Conflict as you note, becomes part of the tool chest that helps shape the person we become. I don't hold on to all my thoughts (nor all the messages that pass in front of my eyes on the screen). I wait for a reason to respond, if you will, a treasured moment when I become verifiable in dialogue with others. I don't enjoy babble (small talk, polite conversation, dalliance for the sake of tittilation. My words are real and they are me. Does it make a difference if they are f2f, on the phone, in a carefully-crafted, hand-written letter (I have good writing skills with pen), or with a keyboard. These are media. Media serves to carry bits of me, not ALL of me. So where do we draw the line of reality? >this medium isn't immersive enough for me to express all that >I feel, or even reach for the answers. They don't wait for email responses, >and I can't be bothered with sending messages on topics that don't sustain >my life. Yet, it is valued by both of us (I know I presume much here) as we continue to engage with others using this medium. You go much further than I as you try to "put a face on technology". >So those of >you that would try to tell me that I don't understand the reality of >disconnected conversation should try to understand that I just don't give a >shit, mostly because I understand it all too well. And that is why it would be a loss for me (and I know for others as well, right HooN? Marie? Walter? Mila?) to have you disapear leaving only a minor wake of electrons as you unsub. Would your leaving cause pain? I don't know you well enough. Perhaps given time and opportunities for dialogue I might feel a greater loss that was personal. Regardless of your staying or leaving, my life continues with my engagement with people in whichever frame, format, and fiction that I choose whether f2f or otherwise. >For those of you that wish to insist that this is "real life", I wish you >happiness in your online explorations. Must we limit the concept of *real*? I make love, war, comfort, and seek comfort in my f2f environment -- I am real. I project and connect though my senses to the world to define my *reality* -- a personal construction. My words are part of my projection, my connection -- part of my reality -- not the whole of my reality. So, mon vieux (old buddy), I'll continue to explore this other face of reality that you are busy at humanizing. >Now people feel threatened, >and I'm in a position where I can't express myself for the fear of trampling >the spirits of those that are reeling from the effects of the drug that I >call technology. Express away. They make their own choices, speak their own words or retreat in silence. I will speak my reality as honestly as I understand it. And, I give thanks to those like you who have given me this medium with which to do so. >It's a pity that the viable threads that I was engaging in where quite >interesting, but that is a part of the drug, the addiction. Addiction--immersion--sensation--illusion--vision. >I may perhaps even unsubscribe before I >come to find the devil in this group. Ah! The shadow lurks in each of us! Dare we raise the specture of the shadow and seek to heal the psyche of this listserv? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 09:57:24 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: Illusory love Anita writes: > Some years ago I red a marvelous and poignant masterpiece by > Canadian writer Elizabeth Smart "By Grand Central Station I sat > Down and Wept". It is autobiographical story about herself, how > she by chance found a volume of poetry by George Baker - "and > fell passionately in love with him through the printed word". > They met and, so begun a very tragic love affair. Baker was not > so fine person as he was a poet. I haven't read "By Grand Central Station I sat Down and Wept", but I'm guessing that the poet's name was George Barker, no? And if so, yes, a fine poet. Here's what he had to say about his wife and child... :: Myself I am a simple materialist and the stuff :: in which I believe is flesh. It manufactures love :: the way the winter tree manufactures spring leaves :: or clouds rain, that is, as a fact of its nature. :: the body of flesh is, for this reason, :: as strange and as sacred as that bit of baked dough :: the eucharist to a fanatical catholic. It is :: the temple and tabernacle of Joe Smith and :: contains the Eleusinian Mysteries of Love. :: I have far less reason to believe in the existence :: of DNA than in the existence of this love, because :: I myself have never seen a single twist of DNA but :: this morning I rose from a tangled bed in which Venus :: lay sleeping with newborn Eros in her arms. A beautiful post, Anita. I must get hold of "By Grand Central Station" and read it... Best wishes, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 13:36:49 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Steven B. Hoath" Subject: The Meaning of Love "No one can deny that a network (a world network) of economic and psychic affiliations is being woven at ever increasing speed which envelops and constantly penetrates more deeply within each of us. With every day that passes it becomes a little more impossible for us to act or think otherwise than collectively." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955) (The Formation of the Noosphere, 1947) http://www.sun-angel.com/noosphere/noosphere.html ********************************************************************** Hmm...the threads interweaving on this list are creating an interesting design. I have many thoughts I want to explore relating to cyberaddiction (for good and for bad), illusion versus reality, the role of the imagination in providing nonverbal cues, and the meaning of intimacy (don't leave before you get some, Wilbur...grin). But for the moment, my mind is moving back to my earlier contact with Teilhard de Chardin and his concept of the NOOSPHERE...that is, "the thinking envelope woven around the earth, above the biosphere, and made up by the totality of mankind. Its reality (note this word, Wilbur) is already existing, and its density is constantly increasing through the rise in the human population, in Its inter-relations, and its spiritual quality." Teilhard's concept of the Noosphere predated the world of computerized linkages but presaged, I believe, the idea of cyberspace and Psyberia. Now...why should this be of interest to us...particularly, those of us that are staunch realists...the biologists and engineers and programming types? (Is this the time for me to mention that I make my living in the dual roles of an intensive care physician and a basic academic researcher? In other words, I'm well grounded in the exigencies of the real world...the admonition to "Get Real" doesn't have much effect on me except to provoke amusement.) Anyway, I have mentioned my experience that cyberspace lends itself in a remarkable way to the development of intimacy...the fact is that I have tremendous love and gratitude to my online lover for her trust and willingness to share herself with me. Contrary to what others seem to believe, intimacy is more than cybersex...my cyberlove and I have spent long hours discussing time and the structure of cyberspace...we have shared our doubts and our weaknesses and our dark inclinations (this willingness to lay bare the soul is clearly different from Anita's "bright side" view of cyberlove...what I'm talking about is hideously dark as well as overwhelmingly light...above all, it is spiritually whole) Of great importance, my cyberlover and I have invested ourselves completely in our words...we don't engage in other activities when we talk online...we listen to each other's words with our minds and our hearts and our souls..we let our imaginations wrap round the words...we let our emotions find the proper reply. Now, it could be said that this reply is *only* in words...not true...to say that communication is nonverbal in this medium is to miss the overwhelming importance of the imagination in all communication...imagination informs *all* our thought, but its importance is more clearly seen in this medium...besides, the use of words is not even restrictive in conveying body language...*Steven arches an eyebrow and surveys the crowd for understanding*. So...what do I want to convey in this message other than a restatement of my experience of online intimacy?...well, perhaps another quote from Teilhard sums up best what I have received from this medium and what I believe is possible for me in cyberspace. This quote is taken within the context of Teilhard's belief that Love is by definition the word we use for attractions of a personal nature, it is the most universal, the most tremendous and the most mysterious of the cosmic forces...in its essence, it is the attraction exercised on each unit of consciousness by the centre of the Universe in the course of its taking shape. Whether this experience noted below holds true for everyone I can't really say...but it speaks precisely to my current situation: "if man fails to recognize the true nature, the true object, of his love, the confusion is vast and irremediable. Bent on assuaging a passion intended for the ALL on an abject too small to satisfy it, he will strive to compensate a fundamental imbalance by materialism [how much do you love your car?] or and ever-increasing multiplicity of experiments [the addiction to cybersex, Wilbur?]. His efforts will be fruitless---and in the eyes of one who can see the inestimable value of the "spiritual quantum" of man, a terrible waste. [This is precisely the view of my cyberlover.] But let us put aside any sentimental feelings or virtuous indignation. Let us look very coolly as biologists or engineers, at the lurid atmosphere of our great towns at night. [Or the teeming sexual atmosphere and cyberorgiastic opportunities of the internet relay chat networks...hehe.] There, and everywhere else as well, the earth is continually dissipating its most marvelous power. This is pure loss. Earth is burning away, wasted on the empty air. How much energy do you think the spirit of the earth loses in a single night?" "If only man would turn and see the reality of the Universe shining in the spirit and through the flesh. He would then discover the reason for what has hitherto deceived and perverted his powers of love. Woman stands before him as the lure and symbol of the world. He cannot embrace her except by himself growing, in his turn, to a world scale. And because the world is always growing and always unfinished and always ahead of us, to achieve his love man is engaged in a limitless conquest of the universe and himself. In this sense, man can only attain woman by consummating a union with the Universe. Love is a sacred reserve of energy; it is like the blood of spiritual evolution." Teilhard de Chardin *Human Energy*, pp. 32-4 The point of this overlong missive is that Love cannot be seen...it cannot be touched...it does not have "body language"...but all things are a manifestation of love. The creation of cyberspace is just another level in our constant struggle to remember...to reunite...to find ourselves and become whole. Somewhere in one of Nikos Kazanzakis' books, he speaks about spiritual evolution...how the whole point of Mankind's bloody and painful struggle out of the wilderness of the soul is to somehow...somewhere...in some small way...to create the Face of God... The computer is only a gateway in this struggle...a means to meet other minds...to share and love and explore and play...a means to carry on this creation. Steven _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 14:31:43 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: Wilbur - wait a minute, please! Wilbur, I wrote: <> You write: <> <> I don't believe that the truth will tear us apart. My dis-ease in the face of conflict is rooted in my own past, born in a home where the expression of dissent resulted in the withdrawal of approval -- which I felt as a withdrawal of love and which leaves me still afraid that relationships will be damaged by strong differences of opinion. If you leave, does that mean that I was right? My response to your words is not your responsibility, and I wrote them only to articulate my observation of my own internal process. If they contributed to your feeling that you can't express yourself here, I am sorry. Wilbur, your voice is strong and powerful and it calls forth strong and powerful reactions from those of us who listen to you. For me, it was easier to close myself to the critical tone of your words than to open myself to an identification with the pain you speak of so eloquently. But I learn nothing when I am closed, and I am grateful that you force me to look at myself and my defenses. I do not come here only to be validated in what I already know -- only to listen to those who think as I do -- only to find in others the reflection of my own image. I come here to learn from the multifaceted experience and diverse perceptions of others, to share our common humanity, and hopefully to grow as a human being from our encounter. Your leaving would diminish my chance to do that. I would ask you what response you hoped to receive here -- comfort, support, recognition? I did not respond to you in part because I did not feel that you needed my response, or would value my input. An unconscious assumption on my part that I should have checked out. Your debate with Steven was so loud in my ears that I failed to hear the story of your pain. You remind me to look beyond my first impressions, to challenge my assumptions, to LISTEN. I hope you stay, and continue to share. If you are not free to be who you are here, then neither am I. I would ask only that you respect my thoughts and beliefs and feelings. I may not share yours, but I respect your right to have them. Let the truth bring us together. Marie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:15:43 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Robert G. Longpre" Subject: Re: - intense, emotionally rewarding, and intimate - Walter, You ask: >The debate about what is real and what is not, what is love and what >is not, has continued. It is closely linked to the discussion about >addiction, after all, from the outside love can look like addiction, >and it is close to it, it is a cure for pain. An interesting debate. >Could the debate itself be a move away from authenticity? I think so. It *feels* like a retreat to a corner of safety where we can shore up our emotional walls with a bit of intellectual activity. The acclimitization to this new *reality*, benefits from this space of retreat. The sophistry of *words* that are bandied about like a convention of dictionaries safely let us disappear under their cover. But, they will return when their wounds have healed, self-inflicted wounds for the most part I do believe. >BTW Robert, I checked out >how Kate saw the growth of our relationship, yes, it is mutual. She >described its growth as meandering, weaving its way. That fits for me. >I told her about the discussion we had. It was fun. Merci, Walter. These are good words to hear. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:15:53 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Robert G. Longpre" Subject: Re: Love on a different plane.. Laurel, Your reply to Wilber, Stephen, and your hidden cyber-love finds agreement within me. I agree: >This place is special..it does have a magic. ... ... where >Sometimes the most >wonderfull thing you can do is forget all that you know is possible and to >dive into the impossible and just go with the flow. Like you, and the many others speaking aloud here, I concur that ... >This place has something that I believe we are yet to discover and that is >ourselves and the ability to love and to know other human beings in a way >that just doesnt exist outside of cyberspace, but which we will learn to >translate into our real lives. Voila pourquoi nous sommes ici, en Cyberie. Our rationale for being engaged in this conversation about the psychology of the intrapersonal dialogue, the engagement in cyber-space. >This place is a healing place and also a force for destruction. I for one >will take the good and stomp on the bad. I have seen both and I am afraid of >neither now. And in the passing of that fear comes VOICE. The poem was beautiful. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:16:01 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Robert G. Longpre" Subject: Re: dragons Hello, Marie, ><beginning of all peoples, the myths about dragons that at the last moment >turn into princesses; perhaps all the dragons of our lives are princesses who >are only waiting to see us once beautiful and brave. I, the teller <> believe in the dragons, the princesses, in the beauty and bravery that exists within each of these cyber-souls present in Psyberia. >Perhaps everything >terrible is in its deepest being something helpless that wants help from us. Or, is willing to help us. ><than any you have ever seen; if a restiveness, like light and cloud-shadows, >passes over your hands and over all you do. You must think that something is >happening with you, that life has not forgotten you, that it holds you in its >hand; it will not let you fall.... The hands of our souls will catch you. Your spirit will not be lost. Marie, these words of Rilke are equisite. I am reading a bio of Rilke by Donald Prater, _The Ringing Glass_. There is little doubt in my mind that Rilke would be a *star* in Psyberia. This place is made for the likes of him. What also comes out of reading his life story is support for the ideas voiced by Anita Konkka. Rilke did indeed need the solitude to create. His work came at the expense of his wife, Clara, and his girl-child. What would our world be like without the glittering gifts from Rilke, Tolstoy, Hesse, and other poets of our souls? Is the sacrifice worth the result, these gifts? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:16:12 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Robert G. Longpre" Subject: Re: coming out of a cave Susan, Thank you for taking the time in your busy schedule to spend a few moments with us here. I apologize for not being quicker to respond, but I found that as I was very busy as well. So much for being illusory cyber-beings. >The psyber postings >were a refuge, a place of safety. What beauty in the poetry (including the >lyricism of the prose)--ah, Robert "spinning webs from bits of incandescent >light," and Mila's "joy flash" of understanding --Laurel's mindsharing >especially touched me--to see that "rare and precious thing that can be felt >here... I, too, find Psyberia a place I like to spend some happy, thoughtful moments. Unlike Wilbur, I accept this oasis as a *real* place that is not bound by stuffy materialism (I'm not refering to the technical domaine of keyboard, motherboard, modem, etc.). I did find a few words that help better explain that difficult word, *REAL*. In his book _Lila_, Pirsig quotes Edward Sapir: > The fact of the matter is that the <> > is to a large extent unconsciously built up on the > language habits of the group. So, what we do here is to create, construct a <> through our negotiation of meaning in dialogue. Kluckhohn describes the process as: > a means of categorizing experience ... > the events of the <> through language which is simply an *instrument* for the transfer of ideas. >The strong connection with >the conversation, the joy in the words and ideas, carried with it great pain, >however. Last night (in rl ?) ended a long term relationship--we were at a >distance and e-mail wasn't enough for him, it wasn't vibrant or vital, it was >cold and sterile and distant. How could this be--for me our e-mail was a place >to share my heart and soul, to explore the depths of my feelings, to play with >new ways to look at things, to problem solve issues of the relationship. It was >my element, playing with words, which have been my joy since earliest memory. Unfortunately, we as beings do have a biological aspect that demands *value time* in its quest for survival. I, a poet, revel in this space. I, as a biological man, yearn at times for the melding of flesh-to-flesh (f2f???). I, as a social animal, find here the company of peers with whom I share much. I do hope that your situation resolves itself into one that is *more* than before. >Laurel ... ... >I saw his face/voice projected onto yours and jumped to defend the core of me >that was being now doubly attacked--my apologies for snarling). I realize too >the relative safety of vulnerability on this medium--no face to lose if I am >overhelmed by emotions. F2F doesn't afford that luxury--I wept in front of a >class today (what cruel syncronicity gave me the topic of lifecycles of intimate >relationships to cover today--and I was dumb enough to think I could read a >story as introduction without losing my control)--Here in reading my mail and >in "minding" this posting I have also wept, but I have the choice to offer that >in trust to each of you or to hold that in reserve for my own private grief. And know that you are heard and held. Your grief is a shared pain that many of us here have come to know intimately. Like a support group, we take comfort with others who have shared our pain, for they know the meaning of our experience, the *reality* of our experience. >I am surprised at the safety I feel though-- and >the delight at having such a forum to process the processing of this with you It is this sense of safety that allows us to chance speaking where in f2f we might resort to silence (fear of inflicting unneeded pain, fear of involvement which will be thrown back as unwelcome). The safety nets are deployed for each of us. To forsake one is to risk all. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:44:21 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: the face of God Steven, You wrote: <> Victor Hugo wrote: <> Les Miserables Marie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:05:33 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Robert G. Longpre" Subject: Re: my apologies Wilbur, I have a moment to respond to you regarding your post of May 25. I found it to be moving in the extreme. I also found points of connection. >Believe it or not, there are some things in life, some >wounds from childhood, that can never be healed.. Events of our past are that, events of our past. Wounds heal themselves over time, or are healed through through the interventions of others who care. Some wounds, as you mention become part of the tapestry of our present as they are not *healable*. We build upon our weaknesses as well as our srengths for our survival. >As a warning, I cried when I wrote some of this. The context of a man who is moved by his own thoughts and words, a moment of authenticity. Your story of *roots* serves to provide a focus of *understanding*, the *context* of associations and meaning. Each of us needs to fill in the context of our dialogues if that which we think is to have an opportunity for being comprehended in the listener. Your parents created a *reality* from the experiences lived by and through their parents. We do the same. Hence, my reality and your reality have different dimension, different focal points, even different shades of colour. Yet, each of these realities is *real*. Out of our lives and experiences our children and grandchildren will construct their own concepts of *reality*. Will Pysberia -- Cyberspace -- be part of that *reality*? Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:30:15 +0300 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Anita Konkka Subject: Shadow =20 Hi Walter, Charles, Steven and everybody all, I=92m very young in the Internet. And in this list I=92m only one week= old. I don=92t know on what kind themes you have discussed earlier. I tried= to get Index from Listserv, but got an information: there=92s no files=94. Perhaps *the shadow* is an old theme to you, but to me it is very actually, because I=92m going to give a lecture on the shadow in the literature and dreams. I=92m interested in how the shadow behaves on the screen. When I meet a person face to face I quite soon have feeling what is his or her sore spot and don=92t push my finger in it. Was it Jung who said that don= =92t step on the tiger=92s tail? But how can I take care not to step on the screen, when I don=92t see the tail? I have no experience in that cause. = In *real* life a person seldom bears seeing his own shadow. He gets angry with an other, on whom his shadow is reflected. If the other says: no, it=92= s not me but your shadow, he wants no more meet the other and they=92ll separate as enemies. Perhaps it is not so dangerous on the screen as in the real life. What do you think? Carles Cameron wrote: >I'm guessing that the poet's name was George Barker, no? And if so, yes, a fine poet. Yes, it was George Barker, sorry my error in writing. I cannot write English so well as Finnish. I, too,am as simple as George Barker, because I believe in the flesh. There is the spirit in the flesh. Nevertheless, I have since youth admired Rilke=B4s poetry.=20 Best wishes Anita _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 23:01:41 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == Archives == [Was Shadow] In-Reply-To: <1.5.4b12.16.19960429113022.1cdff71a@megabaud.fi> Hi Anita > get Index from Listserv, but got an information: there=92s no files=94. You almost got it right! Here are the instructions. == Psyber-L Archives and Files == To get the File List associated with Psyber-L send an email to: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the text write: INDEX PSYBER-L You can then get the files with the GET command. For example to get last months archive write to the listserv and in the text write: GET PSYBER-L.LOG9603 Good luck! Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 01:34:13 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: . . . noticing . . . All, I am at the screen, facing Psyber-L, and I feel. For me that is how it is, I feel pain as I think of you, Wilbur. I see others urge you to stay. I am one of those! I often disagree, but I nod with much of what you say, I enjoy what you write, and most of all I like you! I think you invoke a lot of emotion and reaction and you seem to contradict your words wildly with your action -- but you are vital, and a genius type. I know I am only here in *virtuality* with you and this may be all projection -- but I feel in the presence of someone who will make earth shattering impact with some quirky new software -- you will chuckle with glee as it throws us all into confusion about the medium and the message that McLuhan never dreamed of. If you stay or go, I will have had the pleasure of meeting you. Another thing, your take on the focus of the list being too complex, your wanting to get on with the psychology of listserv, you raise matters that need to be raised. I know nothing I say can really change a thing, and that is just as well! You are fine just as you are! ~~~ I had not really intended to focus on you like this Wilbur, it is just that you stand out as I look into Psyber-L. I wanted to look at the whole, I did, and this is what I saw. I will make a more general sweep in another post. I see others interested in you. It is not just personal to you IMO, there are questions here for us all, how we as a list attend to you and your life as you bring it here is important: Can it be done? Can I be here in my fullness and not be kicked off , flamed, excluded . . . or perhaps even: Can I face myself here? Can I combine this level of feeling with learning about lists? Or: can I count on these people? Is this OK? I feel the pain Wilbur because i see your mother in the tunnel as i look at you . . . i fear that we could repeat all that here. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:03:55 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Me, Myself, I In-Reply-To: <199604252239.XAA28568@easynet.co.uk> Marie, how do you know that the man that you love in cyberspace is telling you the truth about himself? Why is it so easy for you to trust that people in cyberspace are telling the truth, when it is so difficult for you to trust people in the "real" world? And I assume that you do not trust people in the non-cyberspace world because you never let them see who you are. I don't know that this man is lying to you, he probably isn't, I am just curious as to how you can be so sure that you know him. Of course, since you have no plans to meet, and are realistic about the possible lack of compatibility if you do, your relationship probably does no harm to you, and in fact, may provide you with a connection that you really need. I hope this line of questioning is not too direct or offensive; I am really curious about this. I am very trusting of people in general, but very wary of people on the net. Since I am only getting content and not the rest of the non-verbal communication, I can never be really sure where someone is coming from. And anyone can say anything on the net. That is both it's greatest strength and weakness. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:06:05 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960425231226.00adb0a0@monmouth.com> Wilbur, Well said on your message to Steven about the nature of cybersex. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:15:34 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever.. Comments: cc: Charles Eversole In-Reply-To: <3180a3ce.42317839@vesta.chch.planet.co.nz> Walter, Actually, my husband, Charles Eversole, knows Diane Madgin quite well. We visited with them a year ago when we vacationed in New Zealand. They are wonderful people. If you happen to see them, or Bill, please say hello from us. Barbara On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Walter Logeman wrote: > Barbara, > > > Walter, > > How neat that you live in Christchurch! Do you happen to know Diane > > Madgin or her husband Bill (don't remember his last name, but he is a > > Sociology prof at the univerisity.) They are the friends we visited a > > year ago. > > Barbara (Boulder, CO) > > I do! I expect you mean Bill Willmot. I don't know them well but > taught his daughter briefly years ago. Also my son did sociology and > will recall him well. > > Do you know them well? > > > > Walter > Sensing the rl world creeping in . . . > > _______________________________________________________________ > For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to > LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L > _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:49:34 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: coming out of a cave In-Reply-To: <960426040021.8ed5@charlie.usd.edu> Susan, I wish that I could hug you. I know how painful it is to have a loved one end a long-distance relationship, and my thoughts are with you. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:14:00 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Marie Tondreau Subject: me, myself, and I Barbara, The message you addressed to me about *my* cyberlove was a little off-track. I did not write <> -- Judith did, and she wasn't writing about cyberlove. I think your words were written with someone else in mind -- in fact, I know they were, because I haven't written anything about that topic, here or anywhere else. Please be aware of the mistaken impressions your words could leave with the rest of the list -- that you were responding to an off-line communication from me. Since you did address your comments to me, I will say that I don't believe it is entirely possible to know if someone is lying to you in cyberspace -- any more than it is always possible to know if someone is lying to you in *real-life*. Trust is always a matter of choice, and always a risk. Sometimes it's worth it. Be well ... Marie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 12:49:15 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: me, myself, and I In-Reply-To: <960429141359_283315554@emout09.mail.aol.com> Marie, Sorry if I mailed to the wrong person. I believe I e-mailed you privately, so no one on the list knows about it, so hopefully there will not be any misinterpretations by the list. I suppose you may have replied to someone else's message, and then I inadvertantly replied to you by mistake. Sorry for the confusion. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 13:00:09 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: eversole barbara a Subject: Re: Cyber-Love In-Reply-To: HooN, Love, IMO, requires intimacy. Intimacy, IMO, requires true communication. Communication, in many people's opinion, requires non-verbals as well as the content, or the words. IMO, you cannot fall in love with another person on-line; you can fall in love with your image of who the person is that wrote those words, however, which has more to do with who *you* are than who they are. Barbara _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 21:32:26 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: /etc/aliases Subject: Re: Cyber-Love, Synchronicity etc. Comments: cc: Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960426144808.00aff8e8@monmouth.com> from "Wilbur Streett" at Apr 26, 96 10:48:08 am More on Cyber-romance ---------------------- (0) Wilbur replied to snippet of my article on Friday: > I feel that much of the 'mainstream' information we are bombarded with by > >the media is designed purposely to produce negative feelings - in effect, > >mental and emotional rape. I dont watch the news last thing at night [on > >the advice of Louise Hay], since it just seems to be a list of disasters; > > Ah yes, the lies that keep us together.. for the sake of our institutions.. Thanks for replying to this, but I must admit I didnt see what you mean here - do you mean that it's the lies of the media that 'keep us together'? and by 'institutions' do you mean hospitals and the government? > the government to protect us from crime, the hospitals to make it all > better, etc.. That wasnt what I meant; when I said that the news was a list of disasters I was talking about things which affect us deeply and negatively at the subconcsious level: murders, accidents, doom and gloom etc. >But what does the instituion have to do with us as > individuals? What institution? the government? >Why do they have to right to dominate our lives in almost all >media forms? They dont. People give their power away and let it happen. But that's not what I was talking about! I was talking about love, and how the media try to wear us down and prevent us from keeping our happy thoughts. If 'net-sex' or 'cyber-romance' as I would rather reframe* it builds people up and lets them break down some of the conditioning and programming we carry around with us to feel some compassion, love and intimacy on the net, then it gets my vote. [Reframing is an NLP technique; Wilbur, is that you I see on the NLP list? If so I'd like to discuss the cyber-love idea with you in an NLP context; now how's that for a reframe! :-)] Since I've crawled out of my lair again I think I'll give my true opinions on the 'cyber-romance' idea. 1. It may be 'old' as far as the net is concerned but then that doesnt say much! I like to consider things for what their worth regardless of time-value, fashion or fads and to take Robert Pirsig's advice about 'static quality'; [Pirsig relates in 'Lila' how if we play a record the first time, we may love it; the second and third, like it; the fourth, fifth and sixth, it's OK; seventh, eighth, ninth... maybe we dont want to play it any more for a while. my illustration here is that cyber-romance may be old for people who've had the experience of it and tired of it; but I reckon if it's done properly, openly, honestly and compassionately [which may be a big if, I admit!] then it could be the best thing since sliced bread.] 2. I'm preaching on something I've never really tried, interactively; I've had a deep and uplifting conversation through e-mail with a fellow NLPer, but not through IRC. Despite my relative ignorance I will claim that the feelings one gets in cyber-romance are very real, very valuable and very worthwhile *if* the intent is positive. Decent, honest, sincere, kind and gentle people can be hard to find, but from what I have gleaned from Psybernet over the past year and a half I think I would get on well with most of the people here. For me there's a charming, uplifting quality to reading other people's inner thoughts rather than surface opinions, and Psybernet has proved unique on the net in that regard for me. 3. I think people engaging in cyber-romance *can* fully interact, and can heal and uplift each other. One of my interests is psychic healing, and I was a little nonplussed when the woman I first 'connected' with in this manner 'zapped' me with heinous amounts of energy from 300 miles away. This is no longer a 'crackpot' claim to make, and is in fact backed up by perfectly valid scientific evidence now; - Where Science and Magic Meet, Serena Roney-Dougall - The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing, Ernest Lawrence Rossi These are 'scientific' books; they show how the mind affects the body on the cellular level, and how we can affect each other and send energy, love and emotion across great distances. Professor Robert Jann's famous psychokinesis experiments showed that this works long ago, but it is only with the advent of Rossi's and Roney-Dougall's books that we have scientific proof to back up these claims. So Laurel, Dolores & other cyber-romancers, how about adding some psychic healing to your net-sex sessions? All you need to do is visualise the other person and see the love flowing into them in your mind's eye, as it flows into you and through you from the world around you. And if you need a boost to get the love flowing, you might like a go of my computer hypnosis program. [sorry, couldnt resist the plug... :-)] 4. I hear a lot about how the lack of the normal senses and information which comes with face-to-face contact limits and devalues net relationships; I dont hear much about the IMO advantages, viz. that it doesnt matter what you look like, what you wear, how old you are & even your sex for you to be able to connect with people and project / receive love. I became very fond of a correspondent I went into some very deep stuff with, gradually finding out several things which would have had me running for the crucifix if we'd met face to face at first. Gradually instead of running away it's my prejudices and fears which have had the chop; as well as suspending many of our taboos limitations which disqualify people in our sights, net relationships can help us overcome them too. 5. One of the good things about Psybernet IMO is that it's OK to say what you're feeling, how the discussion is affecting you and lots of things which just dont get said or treated as important in any other forum, electronic or physical. That sense of my feelings and impressions mattering is a very welcome one, and I believe that Walter and the other participants here are sincere and honest in their consideration of other's experiences. I would like to see this exported to other parts of the internet and to life in general; and not least to 'cyber-romance'. If participants in a chat session ask the questions we have asked here, consider each other's experience as as important and valuable as their own, and go into the depth which is gone into here, then it will be an uplifting experience IMO. If they are able to heal each other and connect psychically too, it will be fantastic. Enjoying the discussions, Steve Murray Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 18:29:05 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Robert G. Longpre" Subject: Re: . . . noticing . . . Walter, Your words struck me hard. We do feel here--anger, love, confusion, sorrow, scorn, impatient, caring, loss, and at times, awe. >I am at the screen, facing Psyber-L, and I feel. ... ... >I know nothing I say can really change a thing, and that is just as >well! You are fine just as you are! But, I think that what we say to you Wilbur can effect change. You, a master in this environment, know only too well, that words have power, they connect us as a species and help us defy time and space, defy our geography and our biology. But, only you can build the change that our words may suggest. Walter, you were drawn to an important point as you noted: >I see others interested in you. It is not just personal to you IMO, >there are questions here for us all, how we as a list attend to you >and your life as you bring it here is important Yes, we search to ourselves and see that we *need* to be mirrored. Each that we encounter here becomes important to our self-knowledge. The questions we ask of others are questions we also ask ourselves hoping that a light will someplace be turned on within us. >Can it be done? Can I be here in my fullness and not be kicked off , >flamed, excluded . . . or perhaps even: Can I face myself here? Can >I combine this level of feeling with learning about lists? Or: can >I count on these people? Is this OK? I don't know, Walter. But I think that we need to find this out. Will we again have this opportunity? Will another list find the same dynamics in its human company to lead us to attempt this feat? The cost of failure is less than the failure to try. We dare much here. We care more. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:02:32 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: - Overview - All, - Numbers - The Psybernet Mailing List has been in a time of change. Six weeks ago or more ago the numbers rose rapidly from about 45 to 150, we are now at about 100. In the last month the number has been fairly steady with about 20 more people subscribing and 20 or so leaving. I think this is fine, we are consolidating our gathering. - A perspective - As the new influx arrived we were whispering. I saw us in large circle around an open space. Now I see us in a more complex swirl of activity. There are people in small groups, some pairs, our diversity is being *voiced*, there is advocacy and opposition to certain perspectives. Feelings are aroused. We know each other better. Some are more solidly here, others are less sure than ever, and on the fringe. There is some anticipation, what will come of all this? On 9 April I wrote a list of items we were discussing. Among them: > * Reality -- the nature of it. What is authentic and what is > bullshit, posturing. That certainly is a theme we have been pursuing. In many ways. What is real dialogue? What is real love? What is a real person? This is not an intellectual discussion, though there has been a lot of thought go into the posts. The ability to combine the philosophical with the deeply personal has been a fine achievement. My hunch is that most of us are less concerned about the ontology of cyberspace than what is in our hearts and in our guts. - Some questions we might (re)consider - How is our list, our gathering, doing OK in attending to the personal opening up that people are doing here? How is it not OK? What else might we do? What are we learning about the psyche in cyberspace? How are we doing with the broader focus of Psybernet? - Overview - My overview here might or might be anything like the how others see our efforts here -- I'd love to hear. How do those questions sound? Would you ask other ones? Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 00:51:47 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: Cyber-Love >HooN, >Love, IMO, requires intimacy. Intimacy, IMO, requires true >communication. Communication, in many people's opinion, requires >non-verbals as well as the content, or the words. IMO, you cannot fall >in love with another person on-line; you can fall in love with your image >of who the person is that wrote those words, however, which has more to >do with who *you* are than who they are. >Barbara My single sense departs from your bifurcation, confirmed for me in my experience: one falls in love with one's image, off-line as well as on-line. *** But the question is subtle (for me,) in that we may talk about *falling in love* as the initiation into loving. (Again, the Jungian view suggests that we fall in love with an ideal image...naively, yet often unconsciously and irrevocably.) *** Can one love another in this medium? Perhaps "falling in love" is the *easy* part of the great leap. ? Peace, HooN _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:19:19 -0400 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Tama.Neill" Subject: Some more Poetry... Heres looking at you!! Well I'm slowly picking & mixing the messages to read but lifes busy so it anint easy, so I just send some more poems-hear ya go Steve: Heart Beated My hearts not beating double time maybe it will never beat faster talking about the weather kissing I think now I should be want but suitcase-coffe table-Yes!! Have I got a suprise for you I wont know if you ask me riddle me this riddle me that wicked games I know not when we shall join in fiery embrace Future too confused now Just breath away your gonna wade from the shallows brave drowning in deeper waters Time was an exuse How convient now the coins been flipped were still connected you think I'm final ending only in conclusion not seen for a while try to explain messy unfinished stammering sentences that end in I wish you were standing here I'll see you & hear from you but I wont be you strange black comedy lifes weaved I muse fill me into life I'll stand out like colour if even I'm there past present future meld me in exspectations of you there... Intimate jest We propersistioned casual sex I do what I want for me that may sound selfish but that's just "her" sometime someplace Intimate sexual creative pleasure but what if attachement occurs? it's not just a Fuck!! It's a casual/non casual agreement between 2 platonic people fear of complication jump into my fire fry me good Green eggs & Ham Tama I am dark silent Bliss books smelling old & wise all shelved in intrigue geeting down with books she hooks Do You feel comfortable here? darkness radiates candles glowing sparkling in air driven dances Shadows etched on wall paper melting in heat intrinsicly subtle dark rollings of Rum hair under water cat eyes cream foldings of face breasts curveously soft resting there hands held in union shy glances to trace hands in pink patterened prints embrace you, hug me warm & good little wet fairy kisses blown about hands of blood warm carress shivering across me at once Clothes slowly unhitched falling in autumn standing like newborn naked in vunerability relaxed fused in anticipation Embrace me sweet to lips bitter sweet pips saite my taste can you? Do You? Feel? Me!! Livid Lethargy Slagged slothfully flaked Woozy wobbling heavyness imbibed drowsy mad cowsy Minow flinches, water flies, fluke nosed dolphin Up with it crooning swooning looning streched floopy numb dumb sum plus fatigue equals Zero energy Going nowhere fast sinking into bed floating up above body luggage emotional baggage jetisoned Full fractal frobulousness in the Spod Loseing it-EXHAUSTION OVERLOADS... Floating the need to Write Fiddleing for meaning not needed but it's fun to mentally masterbate In conscience I bear reality as fine as the nib I write with seeds claeve across leaves aflame cleave juicy fire red seeds pouring out in dementia means scatter to their own ends flaired into a jumbled epilectic fit. Weave it out for me threads spun, extracated, connected shuttled spun spinningly connected glistening to webb Contrived to see me enthralled at you-Life's a gas Flash No!! beuatraus in deep abounded richness of smooth uncouth sultry ease smiles sketched to me unpenned slightly consumed by not being in the mood to be enough cuffs-hold sense hands close smelling mingeledness leaked a stray feeling It'd be cool to be a magical If? Tender slippings-likeing it!! afraid to crease yourself life give me care not to tread to heavy let me freely float mused into clear crisp enlightenment... Thats me for a little while, thanks people!! _____________________ *TAMA JAMEY NEILL* 19 Haywood st, Mornington Dunedin, New Zealand *P:(03)4554627* *E-MAIL address:-* *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz* ____________________________ Custom-Sized Screen Realities: TURN ON TUNE IN BOOT UP "To be is to do" -Socrates "To do is to be" -Sartre "Do be do be do" -Sinatra Just say "Know" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 06:36:13 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Robert G. Longpre" To all, It began one day as I posted a poem to a listserv that was discussing the nature of computer-mediated communication. I have this need to express myself through poetry at times (surprise, surprise). The participants of the listserv were mainly therapists and counselors who were trying to answer the question of Internet's usefulness as a domaine for group counseling. I based much of my contributions on the works and words of Buber (I and Thou) and Rogers (On Becoming a Person). I can't remember the poem, exactly as I was also e-publishing poetry on a majordomo service out of New Mexico. She replied to my poem off-list. She spoke of being caught up in the words that were *speaking to HER*. She felt that those words that appeared on her screen, words that I sent to the *group*, were written for her. She invited me through her praise to dance with her in cyberspace. For a poet, the attention went to my head and to tell the truth, to my hormonal system. Here was a woman that spoke of my reaching her *core*, of melting her resistance. Like a naive fly, I entered the spider-woman's web and began a cyber-affair. Love? No. Filling in the empty spaces that haunted me from a lifetime of bruised emotion would be a better description. For three months the email flew hot and heavy. We spoke often, but we never ventured much past raw needs, a version of sacred sex. Never did we speak of those small things and those large things that form the foundation of relation. Which philosophies, which poets, which small worries, and which small hopes that spoke to our understanding of reality never found a voice. Almost as quickly as it came, it left. I felt bruised and empty from the experience. In a way, I felt raped. I felt the adulterer with all the attendant guilt. Yet, it forced me to face the reality of my reaching out to another, even if only through this electronic medium. I had to look to myself and my real-time life for the roots of my need that allowed me to become involved in a cyber-affair. This is my last poem to the siren. I wrote it last August. XXXX's Song ^^^^^^^^^^^ Sheathed in translucent silk baring your beauty softened you appear before my eyes a phantom Shadowed and erotically luminous in the light glowing from our joint soul Your eyes, glowing sapphires, filled with a promise of passion and hinting of magic and mischief Eyes that invite my soul to a dance to feast in communion Bending the texture of silk, your breasts perfect, having nourished and suckled creation Nourishing me with their milk your tenderness and love Aureoles encircle fountains that feed both body and soul aching for the tug of tongue and lips and the kisses of need. Framed in the strength of body erotically alive to my touch, the birthplace of passion and the human race A place of mystery, shadow and magic Within your depths, this homeland of the soul I am reborn Reborn in love, a love child, a loved man Your centre, a warm hearth that embraces melts denials and banishes shadow Life ... creation ... love flows as warm nectar in moist union of spirit Thus two become one and the universe is complete through the communion of souls A sacrament of love between ghosts A song between soul mates ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The words of love are really words of longong for love. The rest is a response to her physical invitation. She sent me photos, books, a video on sacred sex. What I needed was not found in all this. I needed to learn that I was more than a body and an erotic voice for another's need. I needed to be seen and heard and met. I left her on-line, and I left the discussion group. I retreated. My only involvement with Internet was with a French cafe for small talk. Then, after a period of healing, I again risked genuine dialogue. I had discovered PSYBER-L. My first interactions with Walter and Mila met with gentle, and I feel, honest acceptance. Charles and Stephen helped to welcome me. I then sent a poem _Silence is a time for Whispering_, a testing step into revealing more of who I am, a moment of disclosure. Again, positive reaction -- and no wrote off-list to engage me in a liason. I had found a place that I could trust. Walter. You watch and listen. Can you here the echos of off-list dialogue? As there came a flood of newbies, there also came dual-track dialogues. I began to receive off-list letters inviting me, engaging me, to meet and dance that erotic biological dance. I learn, slowly, but I do learn. I realize that my silence off-list is confusing to those ladies who thought that perhaps they had met HIM at last. I am not HIM, I am Robert de Cyberie, I am ME. Yet, for all of that, I do believe that one can love here in cyberspace. Walter. There is one other dialogue off-list that I've not mentioned. I've met another who is as tentative as I in building relationship. Our dialogue seeks to understand the *other* and the *self*. Where does this relationship head? Only time will tell. But, I have a good feeling about myself in this relationship. Robert de Cyberie _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 01:45:32 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: off-list letters In-Reply-To: Robert, > Walter. You watch and listen. Can you here the echos of off-list > dialogue? As there came a flood of newbies, there also came dual-track > dialogues. I began to receive off-list letters inviting me, engaging me, to > meet and dance that erotic biological dance. Yes, I spoke of it on the list briefly, that the off-list pairing was like the phenomena of lurking, something we know and yet will never know the full extent of. I am delighted that you posted all this Robert. All our talk of "safety" and "danger" and what is real etc. may be something to do with the lack of safety off-list! Words can hurt! Words can create spaces where, like you Robert, you felt raped. No wonder a while back you were warning me! Also saying "listen to the innuendo" there was innuendo in that! I am pleased this is now more in the open. I have had little private off-list mail, none of it has been inappropriate or erotically enticing, though there were some with email addresses that were suggestive, I am not sure where they came from. Quoting private mail from others in public, presents some ethical problems. I am really clear that some private mail in extraordinary circumstances , because of its nature is best quoted in public. Certainly speaking here about on-line off-list experiences, especially ones associated with this list, as you are doing Robert will add to our ability to trust here. Thanks You go on to say: > Yet, for all of that, I do believe that one can love here in > cyberspace. Walter. There is one other dialogue off-list that I've not > mentioned. I've met another who is as tentative as I in building > relationship. Our dialogue seeks to understand the *other* and the *self*. > Where does this relationship head? Only time will tell. But, I have a good > feeling about myself in this relationship. Yes, and yet those warnings from all who have experienced the power of these relationships -- both those for and against their reality and yourself included, are worth listening to . . . I guess I am returning the caution you offered me. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 01:59:27 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: off-list letters [was Re: social microcosm] In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960427071300.00ae4954@monmouth.com> Wilbur and All, I dug this out from a few days ago, I meant to comment earlier, but do so now inspired by Robert's post on off list mail. Wilbur wrote, On Sat, 27 Apr 1996: > I got about 20 messages today based on the 4 messages that I wrote > yesterday. Some of them quite interesting, others that would just generate > yet more "chastisement" because of their nonsensical nature. To be brutally > honest, these relationships are not real enough to me to be bothered to > respond to every thought that I generated.. How much of this was off list? You have shared a lot here from your life - on the list - and IMO the sharing from others is best to occur on list. Opening up like you did about your inner life, is well met with posts from others sharieng something of what it raised in them, and not judgment or advice etc. If that sort of mail comes it can be quite hurtful. And as you say you can’t interupt an email. Sometimes the hut flies in before you realise. Words can be sneaky weapons. And sometimes *unintentionally* so. When this happens on-the list, usually , and hopefully, others will respond to disguised attacks and so on. Twenty emails to evaluate on your own is too much after you have already done the emotional work, for yourself and for the benefit of the list. This is an old principle, that I have heard and used many times: "Take it back to the Group". Walter. _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L