To: Walter Logeman Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9603" From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)" Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:43 -0400 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:53:11 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == This list has a new address == == Announcement == To send mail to the people on this list please send to PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM To get off this list at any time send to LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM with the text SIGNOFF PSYBER-L Please report any difficulties to walterl@chch.planet.org.nz The old address will still work -- but only for a few more days -- or weeks at the most. For those who sort their mail into folders using the adress -- you will need to make a change in your setup. Happy psybernetting. Walter . . . . pleased as punch if this all works well! _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _____________________________________________________________ For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:29:17 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Testing and enjoying the new Listserver * Country Subscribers * ------- ----------- * Brazil 1 The options on this new listserv are far superior than any that have been available the old system Review psyber-l by country gave me the list plus these stats: * Canada 1 * Finland 1 * Great Britain 5 * Greece 1 * Korea 2 * New Zealand 5 * USA 26 * * Total number of users subscribed to the list: 42 walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _____________________________________________________________ For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:37:02 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Marah Rosenberg~203-748-8835" Subject: Hi there! In-Reply-To: <3150a20e.27538386@vesta.chch.planet.co.nz> Hello, this is Marah Rosenberg. I have been fascinated by the social / psychological implications of tele-networking and computers for a very long time. Last year I produced a hypermedia version of A Midsummer Night's Dream where the woods became Cyber(psyber)space and the court of athens the board room of Athens INC. (a communications co.) It was my senior project at Purchase College. The collaboration arose out of many talks about how people use technology and the structure fitting into basic groups. (the lovers, the faries, the court...) The Woods/ Cyber Space became a place where desires were fufilled fantasies played out etc etc. I am still working on projects that I hope will draw more heavilly on jungian related theory and possibly this disscussion will help me refine my ideas. I hope to hear from you soon! Marah Rosenberg CyberSpeare : a hypermedia Midsummer http://gaudi.va.purchase.edu/mnd.html of course the site is never finished, but take a look any way -m _____________________________________________________________ For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:34:29 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Announcement in New List I have wanted to do this for ages,and with the new listserv in place it is possible . . . . Here is what i put in the NEW lists list: PSYBER-L has moved from listserv@link.southern.co.nz to LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM Psybernet Mailing List Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the effects of email groups and lists on the psyche. The list is a starting point for professional depth psychological work on the net. Topics include: The art of leadership in communication networks. Creating communication environments. Gender issues. Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious. Special focus on how these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace. It is a place to form relationships around these interests. The aim is to foster experiential learning. The list is part of the Psybernet project which includes professionally facilitated psychological email groups. Announcements about Psybernet group times and fees will be made in this list. More information: http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html To join the Psybernet Mailing List, send a message to: LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the body of the text write: SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Your Name _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _____________________________________________________________ For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:14:59 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror . . . Greetings! >>The World _Wide_ Web is all light and glitter and >>_surface_ . . . yet under there is all the darkness of our >>culture -- the greed, the pornography, the abuse, and most of all >>the difficulty of relating, the struggle to do that thing that >>Charles has been speaking of -- peace love freedom -- simple but >>seemingly unreachable ideals from the 60s. > >True. Peace, Love, Freedom...simple ideals. Makes me wonder what an *ideal* is. Simple to do or to be at peace, to be free, and to do love, let alone be it? > >I'm turned off by people who advocate the hippy fashion but only pay lip >service to its ideals; the hypocrisy [snip] Yet, by the very nature of such hypocrisy one may be very *near* the other side which is contradiction which itself nears repentence; repentence in esoteric terms. In terms of individuation I suggest the crucial moment hypocrisy/ unconsciousness nears is dissatisfaction, or existential anxiety. > >I also express loathing for the manufactured, pseudo-angst of the >Romper-stompers, the skinheads who felt dispossessed during the late >70's-late 80's, the punk backlash to reclaim youth from the long hair era. > Such 'posing' may be how the Gods, sts, are activated. What I have trouble imagining is what a person does with all the piercing and holes in the skin when that pose loses it's 'numinosity'. >Words to close by: > >"In all nature monstrous things sometimes appear, because of the imagination >of the movers [of the heavenly spheres] above. The intelligences that move >the spheres cannot in one way direct one motion or another except by seizing >upon particular things; and this seizure is called 'imagination' after the >'image' that is formed in the sensitive soul of living things. But in >practice everything that is created is already existent in the thoughts of >the movers of the starry spheres. All the material in things that can be >produced obeys the mover, just as our bodies obey our souls. We, too, have >our own feelings so that when we think of some form or other our bodies are >stirred with delight, or horror, or aversion." >--Avicenna, the Arab philosopher > >The theme? Well . . . Well then, the messenger Avicenna states 'all things in obeyance' which suggests we might do well to identify with 'all manisfestation' without judgement for it also follows that beyond our personal response(s) to hypocrisy, etc. is the necessity of the attributes. Peace, Love, Freedom: purchased through the practice of non-aversion? Simple to say too, yes? And, the *imagination*, a strange angel, and the devil too. Stephen _____________________________________________________________ For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:32:46 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: PLG: Move 8 Comments: To: hoon@apk.net Move 8: Charles plays "niche of the lance" in position 1. This phrase comes from a poem, "The Wreck of the Deutschland", written by the British poet and Jesuit priest, Gerard Manley Hopkins -- my own first love among poets. After years of "silence" during which he had given up his youthful poetry writing to go about the more "serious" task of becoming a Jesuit and a priest, Hopkins was invited by one of his superiors to write a lament for the deaths of five Franciscan nuns who had perished in a shipwreck, while fleeing to England to avoid persecution. His poem, "The Wreck of the Deutschland", was the result. There's a passage in the poem in which Hopkins writes about the founder of their order, Saint Francis, and it is this passage to which I am referring with this move. Francis is popularly known as the saint who talked with the birds and charmed a wolf, and is thus something of a "patron saint" for the ecologically minded. He was a quixotic soul who quit his wealthy family, undressed in front of a bishop to demonstrate his complete disinterest in the things of this world (the bishop was not amused), and lived a somewhat hobo-like existence. It is all too easy to romanticize him, to think of him as a sweet young proto-hippie -- and the process can even be said to have begun in the *Fioretti* or *Little Flowers of St Francis*, a collection of early legends about his life. But Francis was more, he was one of those rare souls so identified with his Christ that Christ's life was in a curious manner incorporated, enfleshed, in his own. Francis received the "stigmata" -- wounds of the crucifixion -- into his body, in a visionary ecstasy in which he saw his crucified Lord carried by a seraph. It is this moment of ecstasy and pain which Hopkins addresses in his poem: Joy fall to thee, Father Francis, drawn to the Life that died; With the gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance, his Lovescape crucified and seal of his seraph-arrival! * Position 1 is directly linked on the board with positions 2, 3 and 8. The move, "niche of the lance", links with "three strange angels" in position 3, since a seraph is an angel of a high order in the heavenly choir. It links with "a peculiar people" in position 2, since both Hopkins and Francis were members of religious orders (the Jesuits, the Franciscans), groups which are set apart from the rest of humanity by their common intent to "show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (and indeed both Francis and Hopkins were considered somewhat "peculiar people" in their own times). And above all, it links and resonates with the image of the "sword" at position 8 -- see Stephen's amplification of this move: > Needless to say: the sword is a powerful and ancient symbol. It is > one of the four suits of the tarot; it is related to the lance which > itself is symbolic of the wounding of Christ and the wounding of > the fisher king of the Grail legend(s); it is Excalibur, symbolizing > the completion of the initial initiation. Indirectly, this move also reverberates with Rilke's "Every angel is terrifying" (see the text of Rilke's poem quoted in my move 4 in position 5) and notably with "knife and wound" in position 4, since the Christ of the Last Supper and Crucifixion is both sacrificing priest and sacrificial victim -- compare the full text of move six: "You see, I always wanted to be both the knife and the wound"... * The meditation on this 8th move, "niche of the lance" in position 1, would therefore be on "knife and wound" representing separate and opposed aspects of human life (Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde), and the resolution of these opposites in the eucharistic sacrifice... < end of move 8 > * Your move... -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone@earthlink.net "a virtual music of ideas" _____________________________________________________________ For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:59:46 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: PLG: Hopkins & Hoon It seems my mailing system sometimes cuts out the spaces when I try to send poetry by e-mail -- and since I believe the graphic "shape" of a poem on the page is a part of its beauty, I'm going to try to resend the Hopkins quote again, in the hope that this will defeat the machine's attempts to second-guess me. :: Joy fall to thee, Father Francis, :: drawn to the Life that died; :: With the gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance, his :: Lovescape crucified :: and seal of his seraph-arrival! Stephen: when you come to put my two posts up at your web site, please use this version of the Hopkins quote both times -- if it "sets the poem off" better in graphical terms... Likewise, my quote of your amplification should read: > Needless to say: the sword is a powerful and ancient symbol. It is > one of the four suits of the tarot; it is related to the lance which > itself is symbolic of the wounding of Christ and the wounding of > the fisher king of the Grail legend(s); it is Excalibur, symbolizing > the completion of the initial initiation. with five of those little "> space" markers, one at the beginning of each line. But the machine persists in "guessing paragraphs", and often cuts all but the first one out... Please reinsert them: it makes it so much clearer that I'm quoting, and where the quote ends... Best wishes, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone@earthlink.net "a virtual music of ideas" _____________________________________________________________ For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:32:55 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: PLG: what do you mean by *lovely*? Comments: To: hoon@apk.net I promised that I would answer Hoon's question: > Charles: what do you mean by *lovely*? either *as* my next move, or along *with* it. I hope that the text which follows will go some way towards providing my answer... In a post to a friend, I wrote recently, "It would be brilliant, entertaining and educational: but it wouldn't be lovely , it wouldn't be *beautiful*." What is lovely, to me, *what draws my love from me naturally*, is beauty. So Hoon's question to me is in my own, poet's way of seeing things, identical to the question: "what do you mean by *beautiful*?" And I think the answer to both questions: > what do you mean by *lovely*? > what do you mean by *beautiful* is far from obvious. I think, in fact, that there's a whole slew of words we use with casual abandon -- "great!" "terrific!" "brilliant!" "lovely" "awesome" "beautiful!" -- which need to be given back their deeper, meditative, *awesome* meanings... And so I wrote, some time back, this attempt to put into words just what it is about Hopkins' poetry that I find so beautiful -- so very lovely: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Let me confess that my own first love in the arts was Gerard Manley Hopkins SJ, and that he has provided the template on which the first part of my life has been envisioned. Hopkins was not published in his own time, and it was not until one of the great clocks of heaven struck a new hour that his work was in fact heard. I am no critic, but would say until corrected that Eliot brought with him a sensibility that could appreciate Donne's brilliant metaphysical wit, and that that same sensibility could hear in Hopkins what he was: a great poet. But to his contemporaries, raised on late sweet Romanticism, Hopkins gave only a tortured sound... Saint Francis, it is said, received the signs of the stigmata -- wounds of the crucifixion -- into his body, in a visionary ecstasy in which he saw his crucified Lord carried by a seraph. Hopkins, lamenting the deaths of five Franciscan nuns in a shipwreck, wrote of the founder of their order: Joy fall to thee, Father Francis, drawn to the Life that died; With the gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance, his Lovescape crucified and seal of his seraph-arrival! There is a tortured sound in there, Hopkins' contemporaries were not mistaken: "gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance" is as vivid in sound as is Grunewald's terrible crucifixion in paint. The pain is excruciating... But as readers, perhaps we do not linger: we pass from "Joy fall to thee, Father Francis" almost trippingly to "Life that died", taking a brief rest there, then onward across "gnarl of the nails and niche of the lance, his" and headlong into that triumphant and terrifying "Lovescape crucified" with its rhyme... which should provide us with a resting place. Read those first four lines again, without the fifth: they would be complete in themselves, if Hopkins permitted it. But no, he has us hurtle on into the next line with not so much as a comma to slow us down, slamming us into the sudden "!" which is emphatically more than a full stop at the end of that strange enigmatic phrase "seal of his seraph-arrival"... All this was not done by Hopkins to make a beautiful formulation in words. This was not done by Hopkins to make life pleasant for the common reader. This was not done by Hopkins to resemble the poets of his day. This was not done by Hopkins to be novel. This was not done by Hopkins to get published. This was not done by Hopkins to please critics. This was not done by Hopkins to prove himself avant-garde. This was done by Hopkins to wrestle an angel into words. This was done, in fact, *to* Hopkins... and constitutes the marks -- "gnarl of the nails, niche" in him, in his language -- of his own Jesuit stigmata. This is the excruciating of Christ's passion in Hopkins' imagination, and he offers it to us so that we can make it imaginatively our own. For the sake of *continuing* the seraph-arrival... * I said that all this was not done by Hopkins with the wish to make a beautiful formulation in words -- which is what we usually take a poem to be -- and I would like to be somewhat more precise about that. The attempt at beauty results in prettiness. The attempt at truth results in beauty. Hopkins was after truth. * What I am after here is to dispel the idea that real art is a matter of working within an esthetic. The problem with our modernism and post-modernism is that it has become a style, there is an esthetic to work within. And within the confines of that style or esthetic there is no room for the freedom of a master -- a Kandinsky or a Klee. In some very simply and direct way, masters do not work within an esthetic. Oh, they may be aware of it, for one may permeate the air around them. They may not resent or fight it, if it keeps out of their way, or they may be utterly unable to tolerate it -- as the Baal Shem Tov was once unable to tolerate the prayers in a synagogue, which he said lacked wings and were cluttering the place up to the point where it was no longer possible for him to breathe. But they do not work within it. Masters may forge one esthetic, or destroy another -- but they do this because what must come through them has so much passion that it requires every muscle of language or color or sound strained to the limit to hold it. It is the exigency of their art that drives their esthetic, not the other way around. Only this one word, "gnarl", Hopkins senses, will work musically against these words, "of the nails", to grind those imagined nails into the imagined palms of the hand twisting so hard that nerve recoils and blood starts... in the reader. And until Hopkins has brought the reader to that pitch, until he has devised his sole infallible method of conveying that aweful vision via words to the sensitive and willing reader, it will not let him alone, it will fester in him... There are no two ways about it, it is not a matter of choice, he has to wrestle it into words to release it -- and himself... And as he wrestles the language of his art into the sinews he needs to do this, he is effectively wrestling the angel, the seraph, even the vision of Christ crucified into words. For it is only in his utter and complete vulnerability to the wounds of his Christ, that the need for this faithful, this truthfilled, wrestling with form and passion, vision and language, arises. So trained "elite" crowds flock to the galleries and hip poetry magazines and concerts to find further examples of an esthetic (today, the modern-post-modern esthetic) that they have learned. Untrained "crowd" crowds likewise flock to disparage an esthetic (the same) that they have not learned, and would not wish to learn. And the artist has an angel within him, and must deal with that fact. * I have said that all this was done by Hopkins to wrestle an angel into words. I would like to make it clear that in my opinion, the angel was "within" Hopkins. I am using the term, I hope, in the same sense in which Ibn Arabi intended it when he wrote: "Angels are the powers hidden in the faculties and organs of man." Hopkins, being a most fortunate and unfortunate man, was also for a time at least "within" the angel. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As Rilke said, in that same passage from the Duino Elegies quoted in this Game: :: beauty is nothing :: but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, :: and we are so awed because it serenely disdains :: to annihilate us. Every angel is terrifying. * Loveliness, real beauty, is the foretaste of the seraph's arrival. -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone@earthlink.net "a virtual music of ideas" _____________________________________________________________ For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:18:01 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: It was a contrast . . . I spent some time today folding brochures for my next 'live' group. I was browsing the web at the same time . . . came to http://metro.turnpike.net/~pflaump/winhttpd/htdocs/bill-g.htm, Bill Gate's opening address in the Developers Conference . . . It was a contrast -- promoting a group by snail mail at the same time being present in the Gold Rush in cyberspace, which is revolutionising communication -- which is what group therapy is about too. Another contrast was to read that address by Gates and then to read David S. Bennahum's MEME 2.04 where he interviews Richard Stallman, another software developer -- of a different ilk! I get that MEME by email but it should be available at http://www.reach.com/matrix/ All these somewhat hyped and technical discussions do get me thinking about the _quality_ of the communication, I think that is what this nook is about. Best, Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:33:08 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: PLG: what do you mean by *lovely*? Alright Charles, I've parsed and snipped away to try to get at a distillation of your welcome answer to the question I posed earlier. >I promised that I would answer Hoon's question: > >> Charles: what do you mean by *lovely*? *What is lovely, to me, what draws my love from me naturally, is beauty.* *The attempt at truth results in beauty.* >For it is only in his utter and complete vulnerability -[snip]-, that the >need >for this faithful, this truthfilled, wrestling with form and >passion, vision >and language, arises. > >And the artist has an angel within him, and must deal with that fact. > >[snip] "Angels are the powers hidden in the faculties and organs of man." > "Every angel is terrifying." > >Loveliness, real beauty, is the foretaste of the seraph's arrival. > This is my way of making sense of your explanation. I will admit that the prospect of our game being *lovely* diminishes although I feel that to work out it's implications might be a powerful personal moment. For the common-folk, sensitive but perhaps unartistic, the translation becomes, (I'm feeling out loud, sts,) ...faith-full and truth-full wrestling with the great vision, passions, power, and faculties which are our birthright does demand a great sensitivity and courageous vulnerability, woundedness... But this kind of suffering is common too. I do not myself believe that the artist is dealing with angels of a different order; their gift might be to be able to work the process artistically. Charles I wonder, now, about what you mean by 'my love'? Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:28:48 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: affection for a machine All, Hard work. I am attending to many things in life! Today Sunday, I did "peer supervision" with a friend -- looking in some depth at how I work on the boundary between individual and group therapy -- it is a vital area for me -- it brings up deep wounds from time when I was in therapy and that boundary was not well attended to. Hard work too, as that "boundary" question applies _right here and now_ with the possibility of any or all of my individual or group therapy clients logging onto this list. The question also comes up with respect to "clients" in cyberspace -- and while there have not been many, it is possible for the members of this list to form that sort of relationship with me. Huge questions really. I am writing about them as they form the back drop to another turmoil of grief. I am here, late at night, alone, "putting down" the old BBS! I haven't managed it quite yet. Its time has come -- the web pages and the new l-soft system for lists have replaced all that Psybernet ever used the BBS for. However . . . with Reg Smith, I set up a complex system of software -- comprising a dozen or more different applications -- many went through several upgrades. I wrote and rewrote dozens of text files -- welcome and goodbye screens etc. I connected the BBS to the fido system -- and then to the Internet. Moments of great wonder as 'echos' poured in -- and moments of despair as the themes of the Psybernet project remained a small voice -- no matter how we multiplied our connectivity. I feel affection for a machine and its software! FrontDoor Remote Access DOS MailGate Gedit Norton's etc. these words have an almost numinous ring . . . and they will be put to sleep, ( archived on a tape) ! The march of progress! Perhaps I can place a small file on the WWW in memory of the BBS . . . Any way it is about to go . . . and it will be one less pressure in my life to maintain it. Pleased to be able to express this here . . . Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:37:48 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: In awe of life [was: PLG: optimism, not idealism] Stephen, > Oddly, as much as despair might be part of the picture for me, the end game > of my inflation was, upon returning to my hometown of Cleveland, watching > my fraternal twin brother, (who said to me: "Jesus carries a sword!",) > attempt to kill himself numerous times until he was successful on > Valentine's Day in 1993. > > The dreadfulness outside lit the shadow inside and those shadows started to > burn. It has taken me a while to digest the Game material, and the lines above stand out, they speak so fully about you and your brother. They make the link between the sword and the burning shadow scream out! What do you mean by your _inflation_ here? > ****** > > Optimism then, not idealism. Our parts are small perhaps, in this game and > that game. > > ******* Do you mean that you thought you had more influence, importance that you actually had? Over what? The world, your life, your brother's? > I'm in awe. Of these processes that are so much larger than us all? I am! Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:36:03 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: In awe of life [was: PLG: optimism, not idealism] >Stephen, > >> Oddly, as much as despair might be part of the picture for me, the end game >> of my inflation was, upon returning to my hometown of Cleveland, watching >> my fraternal twin brother, (who said to me: "Jesus carries a sword!",) >> attempt to kill himself numerous times until he was successful on >> Valentine's Day in 1993. >> >> The dreadfulness outside lit the shadow inside and those shadows started to >> burn. > >It has taken me a while to digest the Game material, and >the lines above stand out, they speak so fully about you and your >brother. They make the link between the sword and the burning >shadow scream out! > >What do you mean by your _inflation_ here? Walter, let me generalize first. Anytime we identify strongly with that which we are projecting upon, anytime our affectual living-out, (the best way I can describe it,) is empowered by intense fascination, those times when we make numinous almost our entire experience, one, later, after the 'fact' might reflect and say: "there, yes, and at that time, I was in the grips of a complex, (perhaps,) one might say also that one had for a moment become the slave of the Self. Such was my inflation upon returning from an unanticipated encounter with a 'peculiar angel' who I admitted in early 1988. The particulars of the later moment (in confrontation with my brother,) are not essential to the point I was pointing at :-) although I will share them. It was a recollection of a dramatic moment when I was 33, but it's essence is somehow a severe essence if you can imagine two fraternal twin brothers, (I think,) both of them crying from the depths of direct, albeit different, experiences, (and make no mistake in qualifying our respective 'states' as being, at the time and in their way, insane; fully-so,) shouting the two sides of the same coin at each other. To divide, to unify: which? But everything that goes up...right? A month later I crashed and was thankful. (Two years later my brother was dead, killed by neurological disease; psychic dis-ease; cut down. ) Today those shadows burn constantly: my gravity as I chuckle about. > >> ****** >> >> Optimism then, not idealism. Our parts are small perhaps, in this game and >> that game. >> >> ******* > >Do you mean that you thought you had more influence, importance >that you actually had? Over what? The world, your life, your >brother's? One ideal is to live in a state of constant numinous insanity! No. Anybody who has lived with, by, a mentally ill sister, brother, parent, will know of powerlessness and 'influencelessness'. But, the *small part* is no less essential than the greatest possible manifestation of soul or spirit. It is paradoxical. Even as a thought problem we can feel around, for example, harmlessness, being influential, but as an act, an every day doing, so small, and: so hard. (Okay...IMO.) I'm much more into the peculiarity of it all, rather than the terror. But the terror has been getting burned up, too. That helps! > >> I'm in awe. > >Of these processes that are so much larger than us all? > >I am! > > Way back in August 1995 (!) I wondered out loud here how our activities here on line might inspire us to rev up our *service* off line. But that's just my idea of *lovely*.... But I forgot how it works! Just as my self-absorbed preoccupations with the Psyber medium have put me where I need to be. *** I will enclose a poem written by my brother as soon as I can de-archive it. Writing poetry was his calling and passion. Best to all, Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:49:11 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: multiple nature of this list Hi all, The announcement in the NEW list was just distributed, and immediately new people have joined the list. This is by way of a welcome message to all on the list who have not been welcomed! What do you think of introductions? I like sometimes to go back and look at someone's introduction or home page when I get involved at a later date. I also like it when someone just launches in and raises their interests and points of concern immediately -- we get to know each other in the discussion. On my mind at this moment of writing, is the multiple nature of this list. It is _on the one hand_ a place to explore the psychological nature of this medium. It is as if by being here in lists of this nature that we are immersed in a place that is closer to the collective unconscious than ordinary reality. Also one where we are able to get closer to our personal dynamics -- the effect of diary writing in public. The list aims to raise our consciousness of these processes. OTOH this list was born with the idea of developing some form of professional depth psychology -- individual and group on the Internet. Can both be done in the one list? Can the second one ever be done? To date, and the list has been around in various ways since 1993 the focus has been far more on the first aspect rather than the development of professional milieu. What do you think? Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:57:52 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: a Tim's seraph (Thinking about what) Charles wrote: "For the sake of *continuing* the seraph-arrival..." a poem by Tim Calhoun. *** A Band of Poets...Forever All day our horses ran away with us. Suddenly the edge vanished. Stars emerged in the heavens, halving themselves infinitely To make the new night flowers. As we galloped near the river without color Our minds let go of the reins. A few individual men Were lost permanently. We did not mourn the passing there. By dawn a solitary candle Gilded the tiny mushroom towns silver, And smeared gold behind behind my eyes. I could not distinguish my comrades From the multitudes of my being. Clearly the war was over now. Though the thud of cannon echoed in the distance And church bells toiled in their rims, All this behind them became forgotten country. For what we discovered is never lost. [c] Tim Calhoun 1990 _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:17:21 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Reflections on Leadership Facilitation, Moderation, Editing, leadership, list-owning . . . All the roles associated with running lists one way or another. It seems that some form of leadership can’t be avoided. Even in the setting up of a list, dozens decisions about how the list operates have to be made. These are not democratically made -- they are up to the owner! Even the most lasais fair (sp?) owner has an influence on the list -- the list description will already create a warm-up, determining who will sub and who will not. How is the leadership combined with participation? Does one contaminate the other? here for example I am both owner, and facilitator (which is not the same as moderator in a technical sense) I also am an avid participator -- seems OK to me , but I want to discuss this and reflect on it more. In another group I am owner -- but not in other leadership roles (formally), I have found that more tricky, being perceived as a leader when I am not. (Even by myself I must admit -- the title of owner can easily go to ones head! ) How do others handle these roles? Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 18:20:39 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Newbie in Psyberia Hello to Walter and company, I've just subscribed and would like to take this opportunity to introduce myself to this assemblage of 85 psyber-ians (and one hidden character on the game board). I am wandering around here in Cyberspace looking for a home, a community, and family. Last year, in April, I was present for the birth of a list called Dignity Net (DNET), a list which set as its mandate, the discussion of using Internet for the purposes of counseling and therapy. The initial reaction was excellent as many who joined the list posted introductions and spoke of their hopes for the list. After a settling-in period, there was some good discussion which focused on the nature of cyberian communication and cyberian relationships. Attempts were also made to discuss some issues in an attempt to dialogue in a group therapy format. By August, the group went into a coma that wasn't broken until fairly recently. However, the recent revival doesn't have a sense of community, a sense of ownership, which has left it a shell - soulless. I have just read the only archived log for this group and find that I may have found a potential home. So, let me begin with a BRIEF biography. My name is Robert. I am a 46 year old male high school teacher in rural Saskatchewan (western Canada). I teach French, Computer Studies, and from time-to-time, the Psychology of Human Development. My post graduate work focused on computer-mediated communication (CMC) and the psychology of communication. My interests lay in meditation, philosophy, poetry, and existentialist counseling therapy. I would like to explore the potential of the NET for the building of relationships based on the VOICED words we speak on the net. Counseling and therapy is essentially a dialogue. Since we can engage in dialogue on-line, it follows that we should be able to use this medium to meet each other for the purposes of counselling, therapy, and building authentic relationships (I'm not speaking of the notion of on-line romance when I speak of relationships). I welcome some reaction to my introduction - any reaction. I don't enjoy engaging in monologue (is it a monologue when we speak to a silent audience of lurkers that we know are present?) near as much as I enjoy authentic dialogue (a la Buber svp). Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:28:41 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Newbie in Psyberia In-Reply-To: Hi Robert de Cyberie A pleasure to get your introduction. Interesting to heat about DNET > therapy format. By August, the group went into a coma that wasn't broken > until fairly recently. However, the recent revival doesn't have a sense of > community, a sense of ownership, which has left it a shell - soulless. Without rehashing details -- are there any principles of cyber communication that you think apply? That we might need to learn here? Here are some that I have come up with from my experience in this list: Is coma silence? We have had that here -- and I have learned to 1. value the silence as one might in a face-to-face group. 2. Value immensely the contributions that _are_ made in a phase of hiatus. > I have just read the only archived log for this group and find that > I may have found a potential home. Wow. This list has just changed home and now the log is automatic -- great! I have three years of old archives from the old system and I can sens those on request. I will also make say the last three months available by GET command -- however this list has just doubled in size and is till growing so we are into a new phase! > My post graduate work > focused on computer-mediated communication (CMC) and the psychology of > communication. My interests lay in meditation, philosophy, poetry, and > existentialist counseling therapy. My guess is you will be at home here if the past is anything to go by. (And if it is then there will also be difficult moments!) > I would like to explore the potential of the NET for the building of > relationships based on the VOICED words we speak on the net. Counseling and > therapy is essentially a dialogue. VOICED? it there some anger in that? Or are you distinguishing it from written? > enjoy engaging in monologue (is it a monologue when we speak to a silent > audience of lurkers that we know are present?) near as much as I enjoy > authentic dialogue (a la Buber svp). Lets have the dialogue. but what about the lurkers -- another principle I have is value the "readers!" -- why? I am one on several lists -- and I learn and have a place there IMHO. What do you think? Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 17:10:00 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: List Unconscious [was: PLG: Summary: Game so far] In-Reply-To: <2e65a6753e65a675@link.southern.co.nz> Hi Charles, Stephen and all, especially those who have just arrived, I was looking over the archives on my disk and recalled that we planned to play one of the "games" with a dream. I am glad it did not happen at that time -- i think there is only room in this list for _one_ game like this at a time, not because of band width or ever overwhelming everyone! But it would be like having two psychodramas at the same time on the same stage! I look forward to the next moves in our current game and to the possibility of the dream game at a later point -- it is as if we are stepping into Hesse' book and leaning to be Magister Ludi (is that the word ? I read it 25 yrs ago.) I am also conscious that as we are in the middle of this complex Glass bead like psyber game we have just doubled the number of people on the list. What are these people doing? might be the response unless we mention something. Let me say this . . . the game we are "playing" was introduced by Charles who thoroughly prepared us for this process. For the new members it might make sense that posts in this series have PLG: in their header, although there are references to the process that do not carry this topic assignment. (there is no formal TOPIC set up on this list at present and I would be reluctant to introduce it as it works best on moderated lists, ie where the moderator looks at all posts first and checks them -- I have no intention of doing that here. The PLG (psyber list Game) will help us to ignore or savour these posts as is our wont. I will make a game archive and put it on the PSYBER-L File list -- await instructions! The game to me reflects deep and personal experiences, for the "players" the active audience and in some way the unconscious processes of this list -- a descent into the underworld in some way? This game thread is part of the "given" on this list. For a taste of the process for those who want to read on -- and take a deeper look -- a week or so ago Charles posted this summary. . . . see below: Walter * * ** ** * * ** ** * * * * * * * ** * * ** > Since the Game that Stephen and I are playing is in a temporary hiatus, I > thought I'd post a sort of short summary of how things have gone so far. > > At the end of move 6, the board looks like this: > > * > > knife and wound > 4 > * |** > * | *** > * | **** > * | ***** > * | ****** > * | ******* > peculiar people | ******** > 2---------------|---------------6 > * | ** | *******| * > * | **** | ******| * > * | ****** | *****| * > * | ********| ****| * > * | ******|*** ***| * > * | ****|******* **| * > * | [sword]***** I awake: I see * > 1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10 > * | **|****** burning shadows, * > * | ****|******* **| * > * | ******|*** ***| * > * | ********| ****| * > * | ****** | *****| * > * | **** | ******| * > three strange angels | *******| * > 3---------------|---------------7 > * | ******** > * | ******* > * | ****** > * | ***** > * | **** > * | *** > who...would hear me? > 5 > > * > > Remember that if the above image doesn't look like a neat square tipped up > on one corner, you are probably viewing it with a "variable spaced" > typeface, and need to convert it to a "monospaced" font such as Courier in > your word processor. I recommend putting it into Courier 10 point type, as > 12 point is too wide for some screens. > > Assuming that you now have the board up and clearly visible, here's what's > going on: > > * > > Move One: > > Stephen began the Game by playing in position three: > > :: No, no, it is the three strange angels > :: Admit them, Admit them." > > This is taken from a longer poem by DH Lawrence, called "Song of a Man Who > Has Come Through". The poem talks about "the wind that blows through me", > a wind which he hopes will carry him -- if he is keen and hard like the tip > of a wedge -- splitting "the rock" so that "the wonbder" will be revealed. > And then he hears a knocking and is at first fearful -- then realizes "it > is the three angels"... > > Move Two: > > The first move in a WaterBird Game sets the initial tone, obviously, but it > can't *connect* with any other moves. The player who goes second has a > choice: s/he can move in a position that doesn't connect with the first > move, and set a very different tone, or s/he can move into a position which > does connect with the first, and establish some kind of link with it. > > Since I didn't recognize the poem, I was working only with the exact words > that Stephen had quoted, and decided to play "a peculiar people" in > position 2. > > I mentioned to Stephen that the phrase comes from I Peter 2: 9: > > :: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, > :: a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him > :: who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. > > and said that at one point in my life, this particular verse had come to > mean the "hippies" for me, because we were a indeed"generation" -- famous > for it, in fact -- and a strange kind of freelance "priesthood", a "nation" > in the sense of Woodstock Nation, and perhaps the most *peculiar* bunch of > people you could hope to meet... > > So my move "a peculiar people" carries a direct echo of Stephen's "strange > angels". > > Move Three: > > Stephen's next move was an image rather than a text -- the Game is > fundamentally a multi-media Game, and moves can be visual, musical, textual > or numerical -- and specifically the image of a sword, which he placed > smack dab in the center of the board, in position eight. > > Move Four: > > I couldn't figure out a direct association between Stephen's "sword" and my > "peculiar people", although the "sword of discrimination" can certainly > separate "darkness" from "light" -- but there is certainly at least one > instance of an angel carrying a sword -- the angel who guards the Garden of > Eden in Genesis has a fiery sword... But by now, Stephen had posted the > rest of the DH Lawrence poem on which his first move was based, and it > reminded me of another "poet's wind" -- wind being a common metaphor for > inspiration -- the storm wind that was blowing around Castle Duino one day, > and which seemed almost to speak to him, giving him the first lines of his > magnificent long poem "The Duino Elegies": > > :: Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels > :: hierarchies? > > My move consisted of these two lines, but the poem continues: > > :: and even if one of them pressed me > :: suddenly against his heart: I would be consumed > :: in that overwhelming existence. For beauty is nothing > :: but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, > :: and we are so awed because it serenely disdains > :: to annihilate us. Every angel is terrifying. > > This move, it seemed to me, fitted nicely in position five, linking with > "sword" somewhat indirectly, since the angel which "serenely disdains to > annihilate us" sounds very like the angel with the fiery sword -- and it's > certainly a "strange" angel when compared with the cute cherubs we see on > cards at Valentine's Day. > > But the most interesting part of the linkage here, it seems to me, is that > between Lawrence's "wind that blows through me" and the wind that was > blowing at Duino when Rilke wrote his lines. > > Move five: > > Stephen, meanwhile, had posted a variety of associations that were relevant > to his own moves -- some material on sword fighting, a comment on the links > between DH Lawrence's reference to the Hesperides, with its golden apples, > and the Garden of Eden, with its forbidden fruit, and so forth. And he > confirmed my sense that the sword was a "sword of discrimination", quoting > a Jungian author, Edinger, and a Gnostic Gospel, the Gospel of Thomas, to > the effect that the metaphorical sword of developing consciousness is that > which cuts a child free of a too great reliance on family, and allows him > or her to become a distinct and individual "person" in their own right... > > Stephen then played the phrase "I awake: I see burning shadows" in position > nine. > > Again, this seemed to me to be an evocative move. Stephen's images, the > "strange angels", the "sword", the phrase "I awake: I see burning shadows", > all seem to have a peculiar intensity which I have tried to match with my > own moves -- it seems to me that it's this *intensity* which connects them > to the other positions on the board, not a particular set of logical > connections. > > Move six: > > And so I played... "knife and wound" in position four. The phrase comes > from the recently released film, Mary Reilly, a retelling of the Jekyll and > Hyde story. Towards the end of the film, Dr Jekyll says: > > :: You see, I always wanted to be both the knife and the wound. > > I think that's an incredibly powerful image in its own right, and it brings > a slightly different twist to the Game -- since "Dr Jekyll / Mr Hyde" is > about a split personality, one half of whom is a killer. > > So the "knife" in this case, though still symbolic, is demonic rather than > angelic... > > That's our Game so far, and I hope this short summary will help make sense > of it. > > To get the sense of the Game as a whole, imagine these various ideas -- the > "strange angels", the "peculiar people", the sword, the poet's cry to an > angel in the teeth of a gale, the awakening to "burning shadows", the knife > and wound -- as speaking to one another, each one clarifying, echoing or > denying the others linked to it along the lines of the board. Glimpse, if > you will, not just the ideas themselves, but the ripples between them... > > This is, as I said, a highly evocative Game, but clearly one which circles > around the issue of consciousness on the one hand, and the nature of the > unconscious processes on the other -- processes which have the power to > turn a man into an angel or a beast... > > * > > Stephen has signaled that he needs a few more days before resuming this > Game, and I have promised to post my response to his question: > > > Charles: what do you mean by *lovely*? > > either *as* my next move, or along *with* it... > > Best wishes, > > > > -- > Charles > Charles Cameron > * > hipbone@earthlink.net "a virtual music of ideas" _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: Re: List Unconscious [was: PLG: Summary: Game so far] Walter, Psyberians, >I am also conscious that as we are in the middle of this complex >Glass bead like psyber game we have just doubled the number of >people on the list. WL: What happened to cause this expansion? (Just curious.) re: PLG I hope tonight to compose my own summary as a prelude to turning the corner and hitting the home stretch. Plan to post my next move on Friday morning. If somebody would be kind enough to confirm for me that the sound files were downloadable. (As an aside Walter, I don't know about your server space, but as an archivable entity the PLG we're playing now, with its multi-media aspects, suggests that it can either be archived as a compressed folder with all contents -downloadable for local viewing-, or, would need to take up space on a server to be accessible through the 'net. Which is to say it will need to come off my server eventually.) re: Walter's posts Hope to have time to consider and reply this evening. Best to all, Stephen *** Eudora Welty: I am a writer who came from a sheltered life. A sheltered life can be daring as well. For all serious daring starts from within. _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:58:58 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: List Unconscious [was: PLG: Summary: Game so far] In-Reply-To: Stephen, > WL: What happened to cause this expansion? (Just curious.) Announcement in New list and also on other list of lists. Hear from you soon, w _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:23:22 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Echos to ancient words spoken in the desert Walter, You wrote in a post dated March 2nd: WL>In a list like this what is consensus? . . . If there is no WL>opposition? How does power here correlate with power in the WL>world? I have the power over many things in this list . . .but WL>not over what we all think? Am I as the facilitator in a position WL>to sum up and declare what the consensus is? I'd like to discuss some of these ideas with you and others. First, I think that we need to dispose of the term _list_ and substitute it with a word that reflects the true nature of this gathering in Cyberia. There is much power in a name. If we tag a concept with a name that hides, shadows, colours, or misleads, we journey into chaos. Perhaps just naming this space and time will allow this space to avoid the plagues that beset _lists_ since it will no longer be a _list_. _Consensus_? Dialogue is an act of consensus. Can we ask for more? Even in a face-to-face environment _consensus_ is a nebulous animal that takes its shape only in a shadow would of perception. For example, we vote on paper (no dialogue) indicating what? a preference for ..., a belief in ..., acknowledgement ..., or? a reaction against ..., an abdication ..., a weariness ... ? Can we ask for what potentially is only imaginal? By agreeing to respond, giving consent, by the engagement in dialogue, we have the only consensus we can fully comprehend. Power here and power in the world are identical ... the power of the mind to imagine, to create, to give voice through word. I hope that we don't need to define power using physical descriptors. What I see and what you see very likely don't correlate since perception is not based solely upon sensory input (which in itself can vary from human to human). The true power is that which allows me to change. That power I retain here. Can I force change on others? No. Each person has choice and directs his or her own change, her or his own evolution. I think I'll take your leave at this moment to gather up the tendrils of thought that have scattered. I'll return. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:43:22 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Another Psyber-newbie Hello to Walter and company, I've just subscribed and would like to take this opportunity to introduce myself to this assemblage of 85 psyber-ians (and one hidden character on the game board). I am wandering around here in Cyberspace looking for a home, a community, and family - much like Robert de Cyberie. I'm expert in list hopping - having tried to contribute something to lists such as CREA-CPS - Creativity and Creative Problem Solving - and I'm hurt by their habit of reacting on my surface mostly - or not at all... For intro: I'm 60, female, Berlin-born, partly of Russian descent, but raised in an entirely German environment in which scholarship as well as artistic performance were the dominating values. For now, I'm doing some research in math and computer science but I'm on the verge to switch to exploring the Net for a psych counseling career. Walter's intro - speaking of PSYBER-L as an experiment in running a facili- tated group via e-mail - was the lure to attract me. I hope there will be plenty of dialogue to learn from. As you'll be fond to imagine, it is reactions of all kind that one needs to learn from e-mail partners as silence does ¬* show youin which direction you're expected to alter your behavior. A technical note : I'm on DIGEST, so there is a day's lag for me to read your nice reactions if sent to the list. If there's an urge to pour out your heart to me instantly, please feel free to write to me in private. I'll try to respond asap. Happy to read from you, Mila (pron. mee-lah) _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:47:28 +0100 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: "Dr.Klemm" Subject: Dialogue: some questions Hi, Robert de Cyberie, it's a real pleasure to read and cite you as follows: >>> I would like to explore the potential of the NET for the building of relationships based on the VOICED words we speak on the net. Counseling and therapy is essentially a dialogue. Since we can engage in dialogue on-line, it follows that we should be able to use this medium to meet each other for the purposes of counselling, therapy, and building authentic relationships (I'm not speaking of the notion of on-line romance when I speak of relationships). <<< Can you give me examples or even a definition of voiced/non-voiced words we speak by e-mail ?? Are we building relationships already if we're engaged in e-mail exchange or is there more to it ?? Which dialog partner is to call a dialog "authentic"?? Heinrich Heine's poetry behavior is witness to a conjecture on dialogs: As long as a dialog is running in a mode called "authentic", it is not deci- dable whether the dialog will remain so. More on "authenticity" later on, if a relationship of understanding has built up. Au relire, Mila _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:42:12 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Echos to ancient words spoken in the desert In-Reply-To: Hi Robert, "Echos to ancient words spoken in the desert" Is this the desert now? I see a huge group of silent people. I am watching with awe as I see the names roll on in! We are up to 100 members. Seeing that "list" (send a Review psyber-l to the listserv) is in sharp contrast to the quiet chat, almost private chat in the corners. > I think that we need to dispose of the term _list_ and substitute it > with a word that reflects the true nature of this gathering in > Cyberia. There is much power in a name. If we tag a concept with a > name that hides, shadows, colours, or misleads, we journey into > chaos. Perhaps just naming this space and time will allow this > space to avoid the plagues that beset _lists_ since it will no longer > be a _list_. Oh boy! I see a huge light and open room with a circle of people right around the walls -- such is my "projection" . I also have images of these same people at the same time in another reality people looking after kids, riding their bike, working, and dreaming about this "gathering" in this dream world, sometimes in small glimpses. > _Consensus_? Dialogue is an act of consensus. Can we ask for more? What do others "see"? Can there be a consensus on that? I doubt it. In some ways I like _list_ because such things as conference, group, forum etc are metaphors and each person might like their own. "List" is building some numinosity of its own here for me. Being on lists is one of the most powerful experiences in my life. > Even in a face-to-face environment _consensus_ is a nebulous animal > that takes its shape only in a shadow would of perception. For > example, we vote on paper (no dialogue) indicating what? a > preference for ..., a belief in ..., acknowledgment ..., or? > a reaction against ..., an abdication ..., a weariness ... ? Can > we ask for what potentially is only imaginal? By agreeing to > respond, giving consent, by the engagement in dialogue, we have > the only consensus we can fully comprehend. Yes _imaginal_ we meet in this imaginal space -- as you say we do even in face-to-face encounter -- but here it is glaringly obvious! A list is not a list! Nebulous . . . shadow . . . yes, and yet my image of the room we are in is _vivid_ as in a vivid dream. Chaos as you say -- we can’t all be in the same dream! > Power here and power in the world are identical ... the power of > the mind to imagine, to create, to give voice through word. Oh yes -- and right now I feel the usual feelings associated with exposure -- speaking to so many -- dialoguing with another _man_. Is this breaking of the silences use of _power_ . . .? All I know is that I feel the vulnerability of being accused of that . . . > What I see and what you see very likely don't correlate since > perception is not based solely upon sensory input (which in itself > can vary from human to human). The true power is that which allows > me to change. That power I retain here. Can I force change on > others? No. Each person has choice and directs his or her own > change, her or his own evolution. Yep -- I also sense that there are some givens -- archetypes of the net. > I think I'll take your leave at this moment to gather up the > tendrils of thought that have scattered. I'll return. Thanks for allowing these tendrils to meet with the tendrils I had put out -- and yes -- which were somewhat dormant in a desert. -- I hope I am meeting with them, allowing them something to touch, and at the same time letting them be what they are. Thanks for dipping into the archive. Walter _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:57:02 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Dialogue: some questions Mila, Walter et cie, Walter, When I wrote VOICED it was to draw attention to the word, not to express anger (the danger of semiotics is the ease with which can misinterpret). Communication on-line has this quality of oral-ness that is not evident in other print-based forms of communication (with the exception of the passing of notes between individuals who cannot use the voice in a face-to-face environment. >Can you give me examples or even a definition of voiced/non-voiced words >we speak by e-mail ?? Mila, I think I can. The dialogue in which I am now engaged (with you), an exchange of ideas, is oral in nature. I _heard_ your question and have chosen to respond. The relative immediacy of our dialogue is placed somewhat between face-to-face dialogue and _correspondence (especially using our postal system). As I speak to you, I am opening up myself to receive the world that you are, I engage in dialogue. As for the others sharing our time and space (the lurkers) they are likened to visitors in the same salon, guests in front of whom we feel free to express ourselves. Non-voiced_ messaging is perhaps a _memorandum_, a posting of a notice to the group. I don't think I'd place monologue in this category since any who engage in a monologue do so knowing that others are listening. There exists a hope that the words fall upon fertile ears and that dialogue ensues. Does any of this help? I can find different paths to take inan attempt to share my thoughts. >Are we building relationships already if we're engaged in e-mail exchange >or is there more to it ?? I'll save this for my next opportunity to speak with you. Be ready for some Thomas Moore and more! >Which dialog partner is to call a dialog "authentic"?? I don't think that you can declare dialogue authentic. It either _is_, or isn't. Buber expressed it as follows: There is genuine dialogue -no matter whether spoken or silent- where each of the participants really has in mind the other or others in their present and particular being and turns to them with the intention of establishing a living mutual relation ... It's time for me to send this off and prepare for my classes. a la prochaine Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:02:53 -0800 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Charles Cameron Subject: Re: Dialogue: some questions Robert, Mila and all: And what was that motto Jung had carved over his doorway at Kusnacht ? VOICED or UNVOICED, the God will be there...? VOCATUS atque NON VOCATUS? * Seriously, folks, I have a friend on another list who uses this word VOICED with an inflection that has always slightly puzzled me. Mila writes: > it's a real pleasure to read and cite you and Robert: > I _heard_ your question so we have here both "writing / reading" and "speaking / hearing" metaphors for what goes on in this espace. It may be that we're dealing here with a system of preferences not unlike that between those who use metaphors of sight (see what I mean?), touch (we hold these truths) and hearing (it sounds as though) to express a relation to meaning... in which case *both* metaphors likely have real contributions to make to our understanding, and *each* will have partisans who may to a greater or lesser extent find the other metaphor less appealing... The poets, now: voicing in such a way that to read them is to hear them... Where tone of voice is unimportant -- what time is it? half past three -- *information* is passed, and may be passed as well in written form as in spoken. But where tone of voice matters most -- gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance -- even cold print bespeaks its *meaning*... * > and one hidden character on the game board Given that it's a "glass bead game" we've been playing here, and that Hesse, the fons et origo of our Game, writes of the "pieces" in his *glasperlenspiel* as :: Those hieroglyphs once so significant :: That now are only colored bits of glass... that word "character" which Robert voiced takes on a double resonance. I'm interested to learn whether the "hidden character" is an unvoiced person, or an occulted hieroglyph... * In any case, welcome to both of you, and I suspect that with the influx of new subscribers we are *all* newcomers to a new Psyber-L... Cordially, -- Charles Charles Cameron * hipbone@earthlink.net "a virtual music of ideas" _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:38:45 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Re: Dialogue: some questions Cameron and revered guests, >And what was that motto Jung had carved over his doorway at Kusnacht >? VOICED or UNVOICED, the God will be there...? VOCATUS atque NON >VOCATUS? Well spoken. To carry on with the metaphor of speaking and listening, I would like to clarify that what is transpiring here is not truly speaking/listening or reading/writing. Computer-mediated communication (CMC) is yet a different metaphor. It has an orality that evokes vague images of speaking when _dialogue_ is in progress. When the words on the screen serve only as a function of mass media, a post-it note on a grocery store bulletin board, the resulting communication reverts to _text_ (reading/writing). Intention is the separating factor, intention of the author, the speaker. CC: so we have here both "writing / reading" and "speaking / hearing" CC: metaphors for what goes on in this espace. It may be that we're CC: dealing here with a system of preferences not unlike that between CC: those who use metaphors of sight (see what I mean?), touch (we hold CC: these truths) and hearing (it sounds as though) to express a relation CC: to meaning... in which case *both* metaphors likely have real CC: contributions to make to our understanding, and *each* will have CC: partisans who may to a greater or lesser extent find the other CC: metaphor less appealing... Preferences/perception > shadows dancing on the wall of a cave, shadows which imitate the concepts they illustrate, ideas based on a collective and unconscious illusion of reality. My words can only be metaphors, my speech tainted by voiced accent (pronunciation, word choice, cultural baggage, and ego). Rather than seek partisans, search for listeners who will dare to hear and reply validating one's being. CC: The poets, now: voicing in such a way that to read them is to hear them... Yes! Listen! Silence is a Time for Whispering ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A faint stirring in shimmering green garments sheltering in shade and silence the memory of a whisper a semiotic dance A ghost in soft shadows singing in pulses of the heart with practiced and patient questions sensed in the dusk and dawning Touch denied and abandoned feeling limited to the caress of a whisper sent in the time of silence R> and one hidden character on the game board This wasn't a reference to the board "glass bead game" originally, but it has come to take on that face as well. It found its origin in the call for a REVIEW of psyber-l wherein one member was hidden. After reading posts of the glass bead game (and Walter's post in reference to the three angels), I realized that the game had a hidden character - the lurker (both in the present time of the game's moves, and in the asynchronic time of my choosing). Like Walter, I became a player, a hidden character. CC: Given that it's a "glass bead game" we've been playing here, and that CC: Hesse, the fons et origo of our Game, writes of the "pieces" in his CC: *glasperlenspiel* as CC: CC:: Those hieroglyphs once so significant CC:: That now are only colored bits of glass... CC: CC: that word "character" which Robert voiced takes on a double resonance. CC: I'm interested to learn whether the "hidden character" is an unvoiced CC: person, or an occulted hieroglyph... Good question. I wish I had an answer. Robert de Cyberie %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:40:50 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Dialogue: some questions In-Reply-To: Hi Robert de Cyberie Mila and all, > Walter, When I wrote VOICED it was to draw attention to the word, > not to express anger (the danger of semiotics is the ease with which can > misinterpret). Communication on-line has this quality of oral-ness that is > not evident in other print-based forms of communication (with the exception > of the passing of notes between individuals who cannot use the voice in a > face-to-face environment. Ah! With your response to Mila I see what you are saying. (That just came out like that no cleverness intended). Of course -- voicing is very different from passing on data. My setup here puts in the "Hi Robert " and i find myself rewriting it sometimes -- to give it voice! Obviously the misinterpretation is a mirror for me -- in that moment it said something about me. Last night, as I sensed the 100 people in this space, I thought, what a field day for projection -- all those unknown people -- and everything I experience in response to them is about _me_! > Buber expressed it as follows: > > There is genuine dialogue -no matter whether spoken or silent- > where each of the participants really has in mind the other or > others in their present and particular being and turns to them > with the intention of establishing a living mutual relation ... I wanted to leave that here, after meditating on it for a bit. In such a relationship there is no room for projection -- a lot to ask of us. I am reminded of what J L Moreno ( psychodrama ) called role reversal -- seeing the world through the eyes of the other. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 00:57:55 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Dialogue: some questions In-Reply-To: Robert, On Thu, 28 Mar 1996 you wrote: > Yes! Listen! > > Silence is a Time for Whispering I have been with the silence here today as I went about my business. A friend who is here mentioned the silence to me. I contemplated speaking to All, but it felt right to move here and whisper to you -- though not in private -- here where we can be heard. > A faint stirring in shimmering green garments > sheltering in shade and silence > the memory of a whisper > a semiotic dance It is as if you are asking for us to see this space . . . > A ghost in soft shadows > singing in pulses of the heart > with practiced and patient questions > sensed in the dusk and dawning I can hear it and the intensity, sadness . . . > Touch denied and abandoned > feeling limited to the caress of a whisper > sent in the time of silence Exactly Moving to listen to you. Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:47:51 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: PLG held up Yes, the PLG Waterbird game is held up and being held hostage by my schedule and three jobs. Will post summary and my move Saturday, God willing, of course. Good to see the new blood sts; lots of provocative and erudite and feeling-full communication going on here. (Walter: it's -still- quote a ride!) : ) Best to all, Stephen *** Plants may be sown by the throwing of seeds, but care is needed for the joys of the eyes- the rich rice field of golden corns. P.Podo _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:45:16 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: another whisper [was Re: PLG held up] In-Reply-To: Hi Stephen > Yes, the PLG Waterbird game is held up and being held hostage by my > schedule and three jobs. as long as you get 4 hrs sleep eh! (saw that advice in your web page -- I try to follow it.) > Good to see the new blood sts; lots of provocative and erudite and > feeling-full communication going on here. sts? I am appreciating what we have -- though I would not call it lots -- perhaps I notice it more because I see the subs coming in -- a 100 new ones is quite a lot and to me it seems quiet here. ( I am whispering to you, out loud as it were) > (Walter: it's -still- quote a ride!) : ) quote? It is. I subbed to a new list -- not that I need more! and watched the introductions roll in. In some ways I prefer the silence -- imagine small whispers building -- each attended to by someone -- noticed -- seen -- heard -- listened to, how would that be? I think that is the tone here at the moment -- or am I imagining that :). > Best to all, and you > Plants may be sown > by the throwing of seeds, > but care is needed > for the joys of the eyes- > the rich rice field of golden corns. some seeds are being sewn here now . . . Walter _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 20:48:03 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: == PSYBER-L FILELIST== In-Reply-To: <199603292258.KAA29989@vesta.intxpress.co.nz> Hi all, == PSYBER-L FILELIST== To get files and archives email LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM In the body of the email write: INDEX PSYBER-L. You can then issue GET commands to the same listserv address. For example GET PSYBER-L.DESCRIPT That will give you the list description. The logs of the list can be sent to you via email in the same way. Walter. End of non _voiced_ communication. As a matter of interest the description is a little fuller than the one used in the New list. More files will be added to this list soon. Let me know if there are any hitches -- the filelist system is in a beta stage on Lsoft, and i am only just learning to set it all up at this end. Walter > * PSYBER-L FILELIST from LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM > * > * ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > * > * The GET/PUT authorization codes shown with each file entry describe > * who is authorized to GET or PUT the file: > * > * ALL = Everybody > * CTL = LISTSERV administrators > * OWN = List owners > * PRV = Private, ie list members > * LMC = LISTSERV master coordinator > * N/A = Not applicable - file is internally maintained by LISTSERV > * MSC = Miscellaneous - contact administrator for more information > * > * ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > * Files that can be downloaded with the GET command. > * > * rec last - change > * filename filetype GET PUT -fm lrecl nrecs date time > * -------- -------- --- --- --- ----- ----- -------- -------- > PSYBER-L DESCRIPT ALL OWN V 62 42 96/03/29 18:02:40 > > > * > * Archive files for the PSYBER-L list at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM > * (monthly logs) > * rec last - change > * filename filetype GET PUT -fm lrecl nrecs date time > * -------- -------- --- --- --- ----- ----- -------- -------- > PSYBER-L LOG9603 LOG OWN V 79 2168 96/03/29 13:50:27 > _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:45:31 GMT Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Walter Logeman Subject: Re: Another Psyber-newbie Comments: To: "Dr.Klemm" In-Reply-To: <9603271143.AA06164@sussun1.ffm.fgan.de> Hi Mila, > I've just subscribed and would like to take this opportunity to > introduce myself to this assemblage of 85 psyber-ians (and one hidden > character on the game board). The number is up again to about 120 . . . many will not have seen your introduction -- I will leave it attached below. > I am wandering around here in Cyberspace > looking for a home, a community, and family - much like Robert de Cyberie. > > I'm expert in list hopping - having tried to contribute something to lists > such as CREA-CPS - Creativity and Creative Problem Solving - and I'm hurt > by their habit of reacting on my surface mostly - or not at all... So how is it so far for you here? I hope you are still here -- though some are leaving. > I'm on the verge to switch to > exploring the Net for a psych counseling career. Wow. That means that this list must have some relevance to you as that sort of professional development is one of its purposes. > Walter's intro - speaking of PSYBER-L as an experiment in running a facili- > tated group via e-mail - was the lure to attract me. Yes, it is my intention to be as _facilitative_ as I am able here. Being present on this old and familiar list with so many new people is an "interesting moment " from a facilitators point of view. Perhaps just before you arrived I made a comment that I am in this leadership role here -- but also a "participant" a member. I am in the position of wanting to learn how facilitation works here. Learning by doing. My back ground in psychodrama gives me a lot of experience in face-to-face groups but in some ways that is not helpful -- there are some things to unlearn as well -- this is not a face-to-face group! Yet I see a face-to-face group! I enjoyed my attempt to see this gathering more as described in Robert's poem: "Silence is a Time for Whispering" , but I return all too easily to a drier image of the large quiet room, where you and I are now whispering. Being the list owner I see that several have left as we gather . . . I have no idea who they are . . . and have learnt that this is OK here in cyberspace -- in a face-to-face group it would be disturbing. > I hope there will be plenty of dialogue to learn from. As you'll be fond to > imagine, it is reactions of all kind that one needs to learn from e-mail > partners as silence does ¬* show youin which direction you're expected to > alter your behavior. What of the silence here . . . what are we learning from that? I am learning from it. One thing I learn is about its intensity _for me_. It is as if I hear it all day! > A technical note : I'm on DIGEST, so there is a day's lag for me to read > your nice reactions if sent to the list. > If there's an urge to pour out your heart to me instantly, please feel free > to write to me in private. I'll try to respond asap. I will send you a copy of this . . . but I would really appreciate our continued discussion, to be in the open . . . space -- list -- group? What sort of net counselling were you hoping to develop? Have you had exp in face-to-face or on the net counselling? What do you envisage? Walter Original message: Hi Mila > Hello to Walter and company, > > I've just subscribed and would like to take this opportunity to > introduce myself to this assemblage of 85 psyber-ians (and one hidden > character on the game board). I am wandering around here in Cyberspace > looking for a home, a community, and family - much like Robert de Cyberie. > > I'm expert in list hopping - having tried to contribute something to lists > such as CREA-CPS - Creativity and Creative Problem Solving - and I'm hurt > by their habit of reacting on my surface mostly - or not at all... > > For intro: I'm 60, female, Berlin-born, partly of Russian descent, but > raised in an entirely German environment in which scholarship as well as > artistic performance were the dominating values. For now, I'm doing some > research in math and computer science but I'm on the verge to switch to > exploring the Net for a psych counseling career. > > Walter's intro - speaking of PSYBER-L as an experiment in running a facili- > tated group via e-mail - was the lure to attract me. > I hope there will be plenty of dialogue to learn from. As you'll be fond to > imagine, it is reactions of all kind that one needs to learn from e-mail > partners as silence does ¬* show youin which direction you're expected to > alter your behavior. > > A technical note : I'm on DIGEST, so there is a day's lag for me to read > your nice reactions if sent to the list. > If there's an urge to pour out your heart to me instantly, please feel free > to write to me in private. I'll try to respond asap. > > Happy to read from you, > > Mila (pron. mee-lah) _____________________________________________________ Walter Logeman walterl@chch.planet.org.nz http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 08:10:01 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Nanci Barthel Subject: Hi to everyone on Psyber-L Hi....... (Should I be whispering? I don't want to startle anyone!) I am new to this list and I thought that I would say hello to everyone. My name is Nanci and I am a clinical social worker by profession. I was intrigued with this list because I am very interested in the dynamics of interaction on the internet. Last summer I joined my first list, and I quickly became totally fascinated with this medium. I have met many interesting people and developed meaningful friendships. I have also learned many things, but to me that is secondary to the relationships that I have developed through e-mail. Besides private e-mail, I enjoy participating in lists and observing the dynamics of interaction on lists, the way lists evolve, and the different cultures that they develop. I am looking forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this list..... Warm Regards, Nanci barthel@ionet.net _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 19:06:03 -0600 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Robert de Cyberie Subject: Touching a whisper Salut tout le monde! I just returned from a week-end of activity with my family (Hockey in Canada) and have a few moments to speak with you. Walter, in your response to Stephen, you state: WL: I see the subs coming in -- a 100 new ones is quite a lot and to WL: me it seems quiet here. I agree, it is quiet. Can it be any other way at the present? All these new psyberians, some visiting, some window shopping, and probably a few moving into the neighbourhood in hopes that they build a new home (like myself). I picture life in a _list_ as somewhat like living in a town that has a high percentage of temporary residents. A transient community on a backwater road that is more suited to motorcycle mechanics practising a zen moment. Yet, I also agree with Stephen's notion: SC: Good to see the new blood sts; lots of provocative and erudite SC: and feeling-full communication going on here. The postings for most of March and April painted a very narrow, insular community. With the broadcast of Psyber-l's existence and it's vision statement, the inrush of subscriptions with already three of these new subscribers giving voice to their presence within just one week, silence appears to have been banished. Mila and Nanci have spoken to all of us casting their communication ripples into the pond of this neophyte community. The old psyber-l disappeared with the opening of the gates. Thankfully, the residents of the previous life of psyber-l have stayed to share this new life (re-incarnation of a list). It isn't so silent after all. Walter, you added: WL: I subbed to a new list -- not that I need more! WL: and watched the introductions roll in. In some ways I prefer the WL: silence -- imagine small whispers building -- each attended to by WL: someone -- noticed -- seen -- heard -- listened to, how would WL: that be? I think that is the tone here at the moment -- or am I WL: imagining that :). We're thinking before opening our mouths. It's very different when you've been invited into someone's home (this isn't a new list), than if you've arrived in a new trailer home park at the same time as everyone else. As we reach the point of committing our voices to dialogue (at least for a few moments) we do so out of faith and hope that our voices belong here. Until then we remain silent. If the community doesn't meet our hoped for expectations, we either unsub or forget about groups's existence until it becomes a mailbox problem. WL: My back ground in psychodrama gives me a lot of experience in WL: face-to-face groups but in some ways that is not helpful -- there WL: are some things to unlearn as well WL: -- this is not a face-to-face group! Strange and stranger!?! What have we here? a plane of existence? what defines us as beings on this plane of existence? I'm reminded of Richard Bach's book _Running from Safety_. We exist on several planes at the same time and are different beings on each plane. The only connection from one plane to the other is the _soul_ which defines each of us. <> (Eknath Easwaran - Meditation) WL: I enjoyed my attempt to see this gathering more as described in WL: Robert's poem: "Silence is a Time for Whispering" , but I return all WL: too easily to a drier image of the large quiet room, where you and I WL: are now whispering. Old metaphors can't fit. I wonder if we couldn't find a myth that is apropos for the situation. Does a _list_ have a psyche? Does a community have a _psyche_? Leave the large room and find me wandering in these electric spaces of my soul, your soul, our community soul. I can hear even when it is silent. I can hear the whisper of our breath as a community, the echoes of our thoughts in formation. WL: What of the silence here . . . what are we learning from that? I WL: am learning from it. One thing I learn is about its intensity WL: _for me_. It is as if I hear it all day! Maybe, the silence is not so silent. Like a voiced message, we experience, we reflect, we worry, we build, we react, we suffer, and we find ourselves faced yet once again with ourselves. Where ever I go, there I am. Robert de Cyberie ps - Hi Nanci! No, whispering isn't necessary. Let your voice ring with its songs for us. Welcome! It's good to have another join with me on this new journey of awakening. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre %% %% Sieur de Cyberie %% %%% poete et philosophe %%% %% dans la toundra cyberienne %% %% longpre@sasknet.sk.ca %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 06:12:43 EST Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Fred Bauder Organization: SLV BBS Subject: The Hidden Character(s) MA>First, let me introduce myself. I am Fred Bauder, an attorney in MA>Crestone, Colorado, USA. I practice family and other civil law and have MA>a sustained interest in psychology, even in psychoanalysis. I have been MA>active on NETDYNAM on the LISTSERV@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU which has been MA>exploring interaction on the net. I was intoduced to Wilfred Bion and MA>Melanie Klein by posters on that list. MA>I have recently been playing on a MUD (an interactive on-line venue MA>within which one assumes a character and has adventures, meanwhile MA>interacting with the other players). I enjoy this immensely and my MA>character, Toots, has recently acheived the level of magess of which I MA>am very proud. MA>To address the topic of this post. Most people who subscribe to an MA>e-list will never post, some very seldomly. They are as a group called MA>"lurkers." Occassionally one may live up to that name and suddenly MA>surface and vigorously expound on his impressions of things, but MA>generally they simply read, or forgot that they subscribe and serve as a MA>rich object for the projections of the active posters. MA>They can be projected as a Chorus, as in Greek theater, but are by MA>defintion tongue-tied. MA>Fred _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 23:35:28 -0500 Reply-To: Psybernet Mailing List Sender: Psybernet Mailing List From: Stephen Calhoun Subject: PLG: Move 9 Comments: To: hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Friends and Fellow Psyberians and Fred too, (Lengthy post to follow. The PLG waterbird came continues. It is presented as a web site at http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html [through ->] http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG5.html) -This will be edited tomorrow am. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Charles, Moving into the game again, I today printed out 32 pages of moves and commentary. I also took a good look at the Waterbird board hoping to see further into it. There are five different triangles activated by the current status of the game. They all share the move in the center: SWORD. This is enough for me: the symbol of the three sides of the triangle and the sword, the symbol of mature spirit. What is missing is the fourth. But (!) the fourth naturally arises out of the third. Hidden are the various shifts which represent the idea of this third, implicit is the movement to a fourth, new position. Brilliantly, the final two moves of the game will clarify this. (What does this have to do with real people? Will wait and see.) *** Charles and I are playing in this game with ideas about human transformation. There is something both stark and repellent expressed here. Although my local friend and fellow Psyberian has not chosen to contribute publicly to the game, her private contribution is relevent. She wonders if this is a man's game, guy stuff. My own efforts to bring my own feminine into view here are somewhat tortured! That has been my intention nonetheless. If it is a man's game, even a wounded man's game, and through it we, Charles and I, the commentators, have been shaping something of our natures, we see what some of our issues are about. Somewhere, myself...toward the end of the mid-life alchemy, God be thanked, I note too how the game recapitulates the contours of my own transformation. Yet, the material is, upon review, obscure. I will attempt when the game is finished to strip this away. For now, I'd like to take a look at how the polarity of MOVE and RESPONSE has made this game psychological and how it is the third has been made. *** Spirit is said to be our true nature outside of time and soul our true nature in time; one the eternal creative response the other the perpetual creative response; one larger than our self the other exactingly of our truest proportion; one transcendent, the other 'made sense' through incarnation. Unity in the archetypal sense may be said to be the marriage of spirit and soul mediated by the open-ended process of individuation arriving at a transcendent fourth, nothing less than a wholeness described by our ability to transform through and throughout our natures. *** The third, the particle of sand in the oyster, is the impetus. There is work to do, always. *** One triangle is PECULIAR PEOPLE [2] and THREE STRANGE ANGELS [3] mediated by SWORD [8]. My sense is the offset between all of those who's taste of the ideal, some hippies for example, has irrevocably give them even the the briefest recollection of the angelic. The 3 strange angels knock on many a man's door, early. Perhaps we are turned into princes, dark ones, or, others, like myself, take flight, and others may focus their spiritual passion on any number of intense pursuits. But the angels' knocking is a singular fact. No matter how perverted our Spirit may be, for some there is the sound of that knocking. Indeed, the peculiar people start out called into ::his marvelous light:: but then, much later, and on a different level, there is the need to embody darkness. The SWORD stands aptly central to the maturation process, signalling the discrimination and feeling necessary to bring our ideals, in my case for example, down to earth and grounded within an incarnation. *** Another triangle speaks to this return. Again, PECULIAR PEOPLE is offset by KNIFE AND WOUND [4] mediated by the ever-present SWORD. Highlighted is the wounding of our ideals. The Summer of Love, Manson's 'commune', free love today pointing directly at the scourge of AIDS. Not only this but the wounding of the Father evident in many men's estrangement from their fathers. Many of us looking across some wide ocean, our country different than the country of our Fathers. This is my experience at least. These kinds of estrangement(s) speak of the wounding and of being alone. ::If I cried out?:: How this echoes with: "Why has thou (Father) forsaken me?". *** "WHO WOULD HEAR ME?" [5] is offset by THREE STRANGE ANGELS and SWORD. What more shall I say? This game with it's players and commentators, yes, this man's game, is crying out to the Angels. However, there is something wonderfully *open* about the WHO. Is it a shout from the spirit world, the world of a man's spirit? *** There is a triangle I AWAKE: I SEE BURNING SHADOWS [9] offset by [SONG: 7] "Waves That I Came To See", mediated by SWORD. This triangle is entirely of my fashioning; it is made up of my moves. Referring back to the 'parsing' which leads to ...BURNING SHADOWS, there is ::Holiness shall find the night::. This is in contrast to the association of the song with the self-immolation of the Cathars. My attempt here is to create tension through the introduction of feminine symbols out of which some feeling sense may arise, uncomfortable as it may be. As for music, in general, it's greatest import to me is in it's unification of spirit and soul. Hopefully, those who were inspired to dig deeply into the sound of my move [at 7] will have had gained some taste of this. *** The SONG is offset, in our final triangle, by WHO WOULD HEAR ME mediated by SWORD. Who would hear my song might be a better way to put it! Does this describe something of the crisis of manhood? Our song of idealism soon rings incapable, our song(s) of careerism soon ring incapable, our songs of marriage soon ring incapable, our song of escape soon rings incapable, our song of, finally of goodness, may ring incapable. Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde expresses this bifurcation of sensibility. It seemed so true...yesterday. Yet, out of the song of falseness rings something true, yes? This falseness is a man's darkness, his demonic angel, the compensation to the light bearing angel, for many, we are confronted by the face of our demons. In this way, doing this shadow work, are we "true to life to its conclusion"? This is the paradox of our individual song and how we may decide to jump into the fire both as a sacrifice of our ideals and for their protection. Our shadows may burn but out of that fire... a new song. *** Finally, there is the one triangle not mediated by SWORD and which, when joined with the first triangle I described, forms a square, a quaternity. Here PECULIAR PEOPLE offsets THREE STRANGE ANGELS and is mediated by NICHE OF THE LANCE, itself directly an echo of SWORD. (If where the sword or lance 'goes' can be said to be an echo!) I am not myself attracted to placing the Saints and the Poets on a pedestal of suffering and redemption to which we can only aspire. :^| Rilke himself describes coming to consciousness as "daywork", hard daywork, and this is the stuff of Saints, poets, and you and me. There is nothing peculiar about being wounded. Or wounded men. Or wounded people. The SWORD in 8 expresses both the instrument of wounding and the discrimination and feeling necessary to be redeemed, and not surprisingly it is central to this game, in the central position, and at the crossroads. Do we not all have our cross to bear? But, as much as I would agree with Charles's explanation of *lovely* being in some way Love's human and truthful expression, I see this as the work of all of us, and what strikes me as peculiar, is my refusal to deal with the darkness, the burning shadows, the falsity of my old, tired, songs. *** Stephen places MOVE 9, a picture in position 6. It goes into position six to formulate new meta-positional symbols of wholeness, but it is for Charles to draw out the final squares and let this bird fly free! I place a picture of the infant girl, in position 6. *She is climbing up, taking a step, but one foot is on the ground.* I know this young lady. She is a daughter of close friends. She is very wise for her age. For our purposes, her name is Sophie. *** Your move my friend Charles. Stephen _______________________________________________________________ For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM, in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L