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Date:         Sun, 9 Dec 2001 10:02:34 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Test
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Hello All:


           I just upgraded my computer to Windows XP operating system, =
and I wanted to check to see if I'm receiving all

right, part of the upgrade cleared out my Outlook Express mail boxes.   =
If someone would respond to this I'll know that things are OK.

          =20
           I hope everyone is well.

             Love and peace.

          Janell=20










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Date:         Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:18:06 -0800
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From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
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Janell,

Test is positive :-)

Holiday blessings,
Judith

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Date:         Sun, 9 Dec 2001 20:14:45 -0500
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From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: viable alternatives
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all,

Nancy wrote,

>N: Hmmm... that was a 4 year old dam you saw break in my case.

I believe this refers to "I am hardly the only one who experiences your
convoluted
writing style as 'offensive' (I don't want to choose a more specific term as
I've found this to be a booby trap.  In language style the dealer and the
recipient usually cannot agree more than to say 'less than friendly'.)  I
read your style as a sort of 'one upmanship' placing clever over clear.  And
was responding in tone more to your style than your ideas." from 11/7.

***

Judith gave me some feedback respecting our exchange Nancy. She shared
several of her impressions, 1) the intention cannot be dialogue if the
effect of my contribution is to crowd other people out of the 'field', 2)
that historically my posts -Judith believes- have been the principle
thread-killers here on psyber-L, and, 3) that she does not plow through any
post if they are constructed in a way as to suggest to her the post is
partly about defeating the reader's comprehension.

We talked for a moment after this de-briefing about the possible
passive-aggressiveand male/masculine/'striking' (as in hitting,) aspects
she feels is a part of my writing style. Finally, she complemented you to
me for "standing up to me".

***

I welcome this feedback. I might have dealt with your forthright challenge
to my intentions and style without embarrassing myself so, but, isn't it
true, that throughout our exchange I displayed my extravagant set of
faults, and, perhaps this stratagem I find preferable to working even
harder to manage someone else's impressions, etc.? I wonder out loud these
thoughts because when I go back to reading the 11/5 reply to your original
question I still do not read anything esoteric or obscure at all! It is
very straight forward at least to me, (and perhaps to others).

So, I wonder what projections I'm getting to capture? I mean really: "4
year old dam"! When so little is at stake?

***

regards,

Stephen

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Date:         Sun, 9 Dec 2001 21:03:51 -0500
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From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Catching UP
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Aldon, all,

>I leave it to the imagination of the readers to determine who the white
>mouse and who the black mouse in the recent emails is, whether either of
>them are 'viable' whatever that means, and what the strawberry represents.

Honestly, I wouldn't know how to take the 'dadaist' position, nor would I
know the appropriate role I incurred in the parable. I get the moralistic
implication. Whatever...your intention doesn't strike me as being very
dada, just holier than thou.

***

I do suppose the heat measures a kind of friction and an intensity; its
been gripping, hasn't it? Things sort of return to normal even as big
issues get their (mostly insipid,) media play and spin. And, I might
provisionally conclude that the psychology of symbol and soul must be close
to death since almost every email venue seemed very resistant to processing
events metaphorically and symbolically and 'archetypically'.

dada kind of recommends itself then as a stance...

***

I really like the end of your writing,

There is no moon in the sky tonight
The spheres have conspired the show.

***

regards,

Stephen

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Date:         Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:41:58 +1300
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: viable alternatives
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Stephen

> So, I wonder what projections I'm getting to capture? I mean really: "4
> year old dam"! When so little is at stake?



I am drawn in... by what i find a refreshing openness to Judith's
talk with you.  She must have a good way with you.

Briefly about the one line above:

I am not at all phased by your style... though at times i find it
obscure.  I do not take it as one-upmanship or any other flaw or
foible.   I see the obscurity (when i experience it) as a
challenge - and sometimes in the distant past I'd "translate" -
and play with your words.

I can empathise with Nancy who has a different experience from
me.  She finds your style "less than friendly".  It might be
incomprehensible to her how it is not intended as unfriendly - as
it is incomprehensible to you that there is much at stake - a
four year dam - not little at all in her experience.

~~~

I disagree with Judith that your posts are a conversation killer.

I liked it when you said that there was more going on here to
produce silence than my part in it - same goes here.

Now back into the day - which is busy.


Walter

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Date:         Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:10:54 -0800
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: viable alternatives
In-Reply-To:  <nf781ug9p118sa2ns2n6j62lrsmtrgdr90@4ax.com>
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Stephen, all,

   I apologize to those whom I came across as 'holier
than thou' to.  I'm not sure what to make of that, and
I shall reflect upon that.  Perhaps there was some
lack of clarity in my message.  I remember (vaguely)
the quote for Tristan Tzara in the play Travesties by
Tom Stoppard.  In the play several people are
discussing the outbreak of World War I.  Tzara has a
line to the effect, "It is the responsibility of the
artist to laugh and jeer and howl and belch at the
common delusion that infinite generations of causes
can be inferred from effects."
   To me, it is important to be able to laugh during
these sad times.  Stephen goes on to comment about it
having been 'gripping', to which I reply, no, not at
all.  In my previous post, I commented about how it
has actually been, to me, fairly boring.  Perhaps that
is because I have difficulties differentiating between
the positions of the Taliban, the U.S. Government, and
many of the people arguing on many of the lists I
read.
   It seems as if there is a lot of hatred, and it
makes me sad.  I don't know.  Maybe that is holier
than thou and I should be hated for coming across that
way.
   I'm sorry.

Aldon

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Date:         Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:25:14 -0800
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From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: viable alternatives
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Hello  all,

N: Stephen, I'm still wondering how to deal with your message without
falling into any 'traps'.  Possibly there is no way.  I'm Not going to plow
repeatedly through a lot of posts which apparently didn't bring out my  best
side the first time.
  'This time' you wrote:
     I mean really: "4
> year old dam"! When so little is at stake?

    It seems this was the final evidence in a string showing that while you
are conscious of all your inner workings (and how your writing might be
accurately understood), I was not of mine (i.e. projecting).  That's nice.
Many other additions come to mind.  Irregardless of what your 'insecurities'
may prompt you to write, it seems I 'make mountains out of moleholes'.
Though I am of no significance to you, I spend all my time for 4 years
working on a 'high maintainance' dam centered on you.  Something like that?
    If projections are, by definition unconscious, how can anyone tell
whether they are either getting or giving them?  It's sort of like the Figi
Christmas food package I received with all names and addesses correct except
it was signed 'Merry Christmas, dad' and mine died in 1964.
    The nice thing about psychic 'dams' is that they require little or no
maintainance at
all.  What little reinforcement they might need is carried out by a post
every so often from the same person to anyone, containing the same elements
that built said dam.  Their effect is to inhibit 'no win' response.
    Unfortunately for list members, there is almost no such thing as a
'pure' post simply seeking dialogue.  I guess that's why the spirit of
Diogenes and his lantern are still out searching.  So, as Judith suggests, I
fully read fairly few.  I do skim yours, Stephen, because of the ******
Which make it easy to tell where one subject stops and another starts.  If
one bit doesn't work for me occasionally another bit will.  Almost it's
moderately interesting to see how someone else is being provoked with
sarcasm when it ain't me.


    I only remember one poster on this list who almost always ended dialog.
I remember her as :) and she's no longer with us.  Oddly I think her primary
responder left shortly after...  Kind of like the two fighters in a Star
Trek episode who were mainly distinguishable by having mirror image black
and white face halves.

    Which brings me back to Aldon's mice.  I kept wondering who that man on
the rope might be, so threatened by large and small biting instincts.  It
wasn't your usual style, Aldon.

    Thanks Judith and Walter for trying to see my side as well as Stephan's.
A little expressed 'caring' is always appreciated.

    Janell, Hope you upgraded your security systems along with the rest.
For some reason there seem to be more 'wild' worms and viruses around at
this time a year, and more this year than usual.

Blessings to all,

Nancy



>
> Nancy wrote,
>
> >N: Hmmm... that was a 4 year old dam you saw break in my case.
>
> I believe this refers to "I am hardly the only one who experiences your
> convoluted
> writing style as 'offensive' (I don't want to choose a more specific term
as
> I've found this to be a booby trap.  In language style the dealer and the
> recipient usually cannot agree more than to say 'less than friendly'.)  I
> read your style as a sort of 'one upmanship' placing clever over clear.
And
> was responding in tone more to your style than your ideas." from 11/7.
>
> ***
>
> Judith gave me some feedback respecting our exchange Nancy. She shared
> several of her impressions, 1) the intention cannot be dialogue if the
> effect of my contribution is to crowd other people out of the 'field', 2)
> that historically my posts -Judith believes- have been the principle
> thread-killers here on psyber-L, and, 3) that she does not plow through
any
> post if they are constructed in a way as to suggest to her the post is
> partly about defeating the reader's comprehension.
>
> We talked for a moment after this de-briefing about the possible
> passive-aggressiveand male/masculine/'striking' (as in hitting,) aspects
> she feels is a part of my writing style. Finally, she complemented you to
> me for "standing up to me".
>
> ***
>
> I welcome this feedback. I might have dealt with your forthright challenge
> to my intentions and style without embarrassing myself so, but, isn't it
> true, that throughout our exchange I displayed my extravagant set of
> faults, and, perhaps this stratagem I find preferable to working even
> harder to manage someone else's impressions, etc.? I wonder out loud these
> thoughts because when I go back to reading the 11/5 reply to your original
> question I still do not read anything esoteric or obscure at all! It is
> very straight forward at least to me, (and perhaps to others).
>
> So, I wonder what projections I'm getting to capture? I mean really: "4
> year old dam"! When so little is at stake?
>
> ***
>
> regards,
>
> Stephen
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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Date:         Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:14:07 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: viable alternatives
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Aldon, all,

That's a weird twist you put on the end of your post.

"Maybe that is holier than thou and I should be hated for coming across
that way."

Only you know whether my impression has anything to do with your own
intentions or feeling when you wrote the post I replied to. I certainly
hope anything along the lines of dislike, let alone hatred, were not
conveyed to you in my reply. I was just sharing a feeling I had, correct or
incorrect. I can be one of the most magnificently deluded
'holier-than-thou' persons when I am so captured, but I suspect I'm not
usually hated for it.

***

I actually do appreciate the absurdities and ironies of world events;
always have. There is something ironically very boring about a U.S.
"in-the-grips" of events. It went over the top for me personally. That
should be clear from my own posts to this list over the last months! I'm
cynical too - I know way too much to be otherwise.

It's been an impressive display of all sorts of psychological and
collective phenomena.

***

On the other hand, I can't understand this: "that is because I have
difficulties differentiating between the positions of the Taliban, the U.S.
Government, and many of the people arguing on many of the lists I read."

Aldon, I don't get it. Are you speaking of a kind of generalizing effect
for which the broadest view of human societies and human nature would posit
no great difference between various positions because all such positions
may be reduced to a point for which differentiation isn't possible? Or, is
this just a cynical observation? Or, do you not care to do the legwork of
investigation which might reveal both how to, and to some extent, what such
a differentiation is?

regards,

Stephen

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Date:         Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:56:47 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: viable alternatives
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Nancy, all,

I appreciate your thoughtful response.

You write,

>Though I am of no significance to you, I spend all my time for 4 years
>working on a 'high maintainance' dam centered on you.  Something like that?

I would agree with you: such kinds of dams require little maintenance. And
disagree with you that you are of no significance to me.

***

>If projections are, by definition unconscious, how can anyone tell
>whether they are either getting or giving them?

Although it surprises me it is not obvious to you, (you are in training to
be a certified Jungian therapist, right?) the overt viewable effects of
something out-of-view are one logical way to counter the argument. Another
way would be to give projection much more valence over a continuum of
domains, so, for example, we could talk reasonably of phenomena such as
transference and counter-transference and other situations for which one
cannot put their finger on an explicit unconscious projection. This points
in the direction of projection not being a reified 'thing', (by definition)
hidden in a person's consciousness, but rather suggests projection
*reflect*.

Viewed this way, it would seem easy to pose clear examples. A man falls in
love with you and feeds back what to you are ridiculous idealizations (in
other words, you don't 'fall' for them, or him,) and brings to you unwanted
romantic needs.

Safe to say you might not only feel you are reflecting and amping a hidden
part of himself back to him, but are capturing his projection?

Or, one could simply avoid the formulation "projections are, by definition
unconscious" by noting that there is much more to the definition of
projection than such a collapsed view and even go as far as saying a
projection exists when it is unconscious just as it may exist, later,
revealed to consciousness.

(Marie-Louise von Franz in <Projection and Re-Collection in Jungian
Psychology> puts it this way: "...an honest, conscientious, and painstaking
devotion on the part of ego consciousness ... can bring the creative
contents of the unconscious matrix successfully over to the threshold into
consciousness.")

***

Do I really think something about my pretensions, arrogance, etc. (also
contained in my writing style) worked to constellate a complex of yours?

You write, "What little reinforcement they might need is carried out by a
post every so often from the same person to anyone, containing the same
elements that built said dam."

Your dam built of elements from my posts? Nancy, you think that's how the
dynamic psyche works?

***

regards,

Stephen

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Date:         Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:57:24 -0800
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: viable alternatives
In-Reply-To:  <003d01c18342$bae90c80$3e0e1ed0@default>
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Hmm, my usual style.... I wonder what my usual style
is, and what is usual anymore.  Is it that one friend
died on Sept 11th, many other friends have been badly
emotionally scarred?  Is it that another friend died
in a car accident the night before?  Is it my anxiety
about finding a new job before I loose my house, and
how Sept 11th effects my prospects of a new job?  Is
it the birth of a new daughter into this changed
world?

I don't know, yet, no offence to Nancy or Stephen but
so much of it all sounds like noise to me.  Perhaps I
am the man on the rope.  Nancy and Stephen are the
little mice, and the tigers are Bush and bin Laden.

And perhaps most importantly, where can I find some
strawberries?

Aldon

--- Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET> wrote:
>     Which brings me back to Aldon's mice.  I kept
> wondering who that man on
> the rope might be, so threatened by large and small
> biting instincts.  It
> wasn't your usual style, Aldon.


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Date:         Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:34:05 -0800
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: viable alternatives
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Dear Stephan,

> disagree with you that you are of no significance to me.
>
N: Thanx... I guess...
> ***
N Thanx again.
>
> >If projections are, by definition unconscious, how can anyone tell
> >whether they are either getting or giving them?
>
> Although it surprises me it is not obvious to you, (you are in training to
> be a certified Jungian therapist, right?)

N: If I am indeed aiming to be certifiable, then I may be thanxful again...
that you are not on my committee :-)

> (Marie-Louise von Franz in <Projection and Re-Collection in Jungian
> Psychology> puts it this way: "...an honest, conscientious, and
painstaking
> devotion on the part of ego consciousness ... can bring the creative
> contents of the unconscious matrix successfully over to the threshold into
> consciousness.")

N: I can't at the moment recall anyone who has more than just dipped into
Jung who didn't suppose so and also suppose that they can do so.  Yet I can
only recall one 'certified' analyst saying, 'I have a projection on you" and
he was drunk.
>
> ***
N: Thanx
>
    You said something about 'argument' so I snipped it, as I don't wanta
argue.

>Nancy, you think that's how the
> dynamic psyche works?

N: Oh, my goodness...  Oh, great master of words, what would I know of such
stuff and if I did - given my 'projections' - why would I trot it out for
you at this point?

> ***
N: Thanx once more.

Blessings,  Nancy

P.S. Aldon, I think all this falls a little short of 'hatred'.  It also
falls a little short of my mother's 'If you can't say something good, don't
say nuffin."
>
> regards,
>
> Stephen
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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Date:         Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:04:18 -0500
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From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: viable alternatives
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Nancy, all,

What an odd -to me- response.

>N: I can't at the moment recall anyone who has more than just dipped into
>Jung who didn't suppose so and also suppose that they can do so.  Yet I can
>only recall one 'certified' analyst saying, 'I have a projection on you"
>and
>he was drunk.

You are certainly correct, 'I am unconsciously doing 'A' doesn't make any
sense. So what? That's not what you wrote originally nor was it what I was
responding to.

(You wrote originally: "If projections are, by definition unconscious, how
can anyone tell
whether they are either getting or giving them?")

***

>N: Oh, my goodness...  Oh, great master of words, what would I know of such
>stuff and if I did - given my 'projections' - why would I trot it out for
>you at this point?

It would be foolish for you to trot 'it' out, regardless of your
projections, my correct or incorrect perception of them or your
non-perception of them.

***

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:35:19 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Change of server - (no need to do anything)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all in Psyber-L

In the next week or so my contract with Lsoft runs out and i will
move the group's list over to Yahoo Groups.

I will move the membership list over and everything will be more
or less the same.

If you filter posts from Psyber-L: There will be a new address
and so you may need to set up a new filter in your email program.

I will have a copy of all the archives and store them online in
text files accessible to members only.

I will add notes to this thread as the change happens.

~~~

My reasons for this are primarily that it is costing more and
more with Lsoft and Yahoo is free.  I have been using Yahoogroups
for quite a few years and it seems OK.  They have a good file
storage system and also good archives.

I have explored other options and have chosen this one despite
some cons.  The main problem I think is the ads - but for those
of us who keep the settings to text they are quite unobtrusive.

One day we might well shift to a purer open source mailing list.

All the best,

Walter

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