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To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Aug 2001 17:01:16 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Anyone there?????
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Nancy

Good to read your recent posts...

> But I find that I need to be in a certain 'mode of being' to
> participate well 'here',

I do to... and am warming up to be here more fully.  I am, as i
said recently in a time of CHANGES - which includes moving out of
the GroupSense mode I have been in.  That means picking up more
psychotherapy... my core profession.

I feel OK about writing about it here ... don't feel this as an
empty or uncaring place, however just now still not quite ready
to focus here ... I need space and the space here has been
welcome in some way.

Walter

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:13:27 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      On being here a-new
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Walter,

I detect in your voice something that gives rise to the smallest spark of
hope that my holding on to this silence has not been a pathetic act.

>I do to... and am warming up to be here more fully.  I am, as i
>said recently in a time of CHANGES - which includes moving out of
>the GroupSense mode I have been in.  That means picking up more
>psychotherapy... my core profession.
>
>I feel OK about writing about it here ... don't feel this as an
>empty or uncaring place, however just now still not quite ready
>to focus here ... I need space and the space here has been
>welcome in some way.

Yes, it has been.  Where do we go from here?  Can we reconstruct/create
something of value from the ashes of our long silence?

Stephen, what say you my dear friend?

Judith, how are you doing?  Do you have the "desire" to re-invest here, to
create a new way of being in relation with old friends?

Charles, are you here?

And Sheryl, the pumpkin soul?  I sense that life has grabbed you hard into
its daily grinds and that you could use a portal to "more."

and others?

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Aug 2001 23:11:37 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: On being here a-new
In-Reply-To:  <5.0.2.1.0.20010801090317.00a3cd90@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
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Robert, Nancy, all

> Yes, it has been.  Where do we go from here?  Can we reconstruct/create
> something of value from the ashes of our long silence?

Good to be with you here again Robert.

I have been warming up to being here... one thing that I wanted
to write about here was on "Silence and psyche" which i will put
in a separate email.

I'd been putting it off because i am not ready! Too much going
on...

I am still in the TRANSITION... which I'd love to write about
here but which is keeping me busy and stretched for time.  Never
mind, it seems this place is stretching and awakening once again,
and I feel drawn in.

HOME

Have i written that Kate quit her counselling job last year and
is now in the Horse Trekking business?

http://www.lyfordtreks.co.nz - (my efforts on the website)

This has kept me busy - in many ways - we are living 145k apart!
Damn, it is hard.  We are in a good space together but the
commuting and living apart takes energy.

Our family home of 20 years (
http://www.psybernet.co.nz/2000_09_03_kwrjarchive.html#801582 -
the one in the picture - feel free to explore our family BLOG )
is not like home and i have been looking at selling and buying
some sort of smaller unit.  More psychological energy - though i
am now more adjusted to the idea.


WORK

My unbounded energy for working in GroupSense amazingly,
unexpectedly and to my embarrassment waned.  It just did not feel
like me for some reason.  I let my practice wind down while I
worked phenomenal hours in GroupSense.  Now reversing the
process, and going back to a more familiar working life....

I am pleased to be still associated with GS and to be really good
friends with Dan - we have marvelously survived our ventures and
will continue to venture one way or another.


ME

I cant really go back though... the push&pull that took me into
GroupSense is still active but with no place to go - because i
cant name it - I don't know where to go... this is part of what
seems to me to be a life transition that needs   s p a c e
right now to manifest itself.

Of course there is heaps more going on... a dear friend has just
had a baby and I have a tinge of grandfatherlyness coming
through.  My son  and his girlfriend were here from SF and we
travelled around and went snow boarding.  Movies - I have a need
to see them all!  (Saw startup.com - INTERESTING!)



PSYBERNET

What is it?  It will have its 10th birthday in 2002.  It is a
company, a website, my email address - and strangely defunct -
strangely entwined with my ID ... A website is like an alter
ego...

~~~


Robert...  I'll simply post here when it is right for me to do
so... but not with the purpose of making anything happen
particularly - though that is a welcome part of it all.  I have
no expectations but will as usual watch with interest and be here
as authentically as I can.

I think being here fully - writing or in silence - will keep this
place alive.


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Aug 2001 23:31:09 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Silence and psyche
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All,

I thought the other day that the focus here: psyche in cyberspace
was not only silent here but on the whole of the net. I typed
"psyche cyberspace" into Google and I found: Psybernet!  In
addition there were familiar articles mostly 6, 7 years old.
Mostly *philosophical* articles.

In my psychotherapy world too there is little focus on psyche.
(Though in my practice it is fully alive.) My profession drifts
into a fashionable "scientism".

The most lively focus for psyche is anything to do with Jung -
but there is rarely discussion about cyberspace, and there is a
tendency to be theoretical.

Important here in Psyber-L (to me at least - and it is in the
groups description) is that we do all this *experientially* not
just theoretically. We have done that pretty well over the
years... projects which immerse us into being fully here online.

I don't think this is a dead topic.  As i emerge out of my
transition it is one i want to pursue with more vigour (I think -
I am only half emerged)  I have a sense of needing to do it at a
quiet pace.

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:25:55 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
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  I'd like to say a bit  on something related to psyche in cyberspace that
has been brewing in me and is now evoked by Walter.
    I shun all the jargon and theoretical terms and say pure and simple that
I am interested in the 'sense' of another person I can pick up with email
(including on lists).
    With people that I also know or have know personally, f2f, this sense is
much stronger.  With people I know only through Internet it varies a lot.
What I believe may be happening is that I am picking up on the individuals
pattern of 'distancing', but amplified.  Some people simply tend to be more
'open' than others.  Somehow this becomes more important on Internet.
    I, myself, am so introverted that I am easily overwhelmed in a f2f
meeting.  It is often 'too much', too much stimuli, too much other person.
As a professional writer (that mean that I have and do occasionally sell
something I've written for money, folks...  not that I can or could make a
living at it) Anyway, as a writer I'm more 'comfortable' often on Internet.
(Hehe...  Here I am in my snug little house.  You can't get me here and if
you try I can just flip the switch to off :-)  Some people simply take up a
lot of space in person.  They seem to breath too much of the air, not
leaving enough for me to subsist on.
    Unfortunately, I have also noted that my personal bugaboos (a tendency
to feel slighted, for example) are just as active here as in person.  Darn!
    Truthfully, if, by psyche we mean soul, I haven't met very many people
whose soul glows from them anywhere.  Of course this could well be a problem
with my own vision.  Seems to me that the way I best identify this quality
in the Internet realm is how  a person reacts to hurt or displeasure.  Do
they react with a 'talon' response, i.e. counter attack when they feel
attacked (whether the other intends to attack or not)?  Do they tend to
withdraw or shun?  Do they start to analyze the other person looking for
negative aspects that will help them get off the spot with themselves?  Or
do the suspend judgment and try with an open mind to see if the other meant
to attack and if so why...  to understand the other, not to deflate them?
    Somehow I seem to sense soul most in the last response.  I tend to
think, 'now here is a developed person' (they don't have to be old in years
to be developed in this way... anyone for 'old souls?)  This is someone with
whom I will have space enough to right possible misunderstanding.  I feel
enough safety to proceed.
    Sometime in proceeding I may begin to feel a sense of the other's Self.
I don't know if Self is the same as Soul, but it seems to serve well enough.

    I began this by saying 'a few words.' Guess I better 'run back up there'
to the beginning and rewrite that bit ;-)

    Best to all,  Nancy

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Aug 2001 16:30:54 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: On being here a-new
In-Reply-To:  <5.0.2.1.0.20010801090317.00a3cd90@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
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Robert and all,

<Judith, how are you doing?  Do you have the "desire" to re-invest here, to
create a new way of being in relation with old friends?>

Well, I seem to be "doing" as opposed to "being" these days...Nu-Me's
new locus of focus...for the first time in years I can actually look
forward in my life past the immediate moment...health is improving
with a terrific new doctor (Orthodox Jewish doctor) who can see me
and is open to alternativecomplimentary approaches to health and
healing...he has been encouraging me to write a one woman
show...seems to think my humor about my "plight" is amusing...he gave
me the first line a few visits ago: My doctor says I'm the sickest
person he has ever treated

My immediate response was to ask him how he meant it...that people
have been accusing me of that for years tho I didn't think he meant
it the same way...ont he other hand...

This last visit he was amazed at how healthy I am becoming...even
venturing that maybe I won't need the monthly infusion for the rest
of my life...it's my goal but it is exciting to have him share
it...Anyway I've made the connection between he and the healer I am
working with at the moment who is "next" as I call it...meaning my
body sense tells me the healer I need to engage for the next step in
my health journey...anyway it is really a trip to have a traditional
medico open to the real healing journey of health...so that, Robert,
is how I am doing

Interestingly this new "doing" person is now busy doing gardening for
people...doing my soul's work...I've surely done this before because
with a modicum of knowledge I seem to "know" what to do...open to the
Universal knowledge available to me...tending the beauty of the earth
while people are out "doing" their life...which combines my need to
be with my necessity of doing...which then leaves less time to "be"
here...but much more to engage with here...lots of paradox going on
these days...

So it seems I've let go of the platform of one life and have embarked
across the tightrope toward the new...

Look Ma! no net

Blessings,
Judith

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:57:31 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: On being here a-new
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Robert,  I just read Judith's post (nice to know What she's doing and how
she is.).
    But in terms of your question, do you figure that was a 'Yes' or a 'No'.

    Confused,

    Nancy

> Do you have the "desire" to re-invest here, to
> create a new way of being in relation with old friends?>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:01:11 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <006501c11b99$b7b01100$bb0f1ed0@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Nancy,

Taking time to digest your post which evoked some contemplation on my
part...then I read your question to Robert re: my posting...it occurs
to me that I am a responder, not an initiator, here as well as in my
life...I play with what is brought to me...sort of exploring the
inputs from people, engaging these, and seeing where this takes
me...what can be discovered...probably  part of my beingness to
explore...I recently had months of telephone conversations with a
person who seemed to be open to whatever emerged from our exchanges,
but as time went on and his conversations became more detailed (and
his e-mails long on minutia)and more linear I realized that he in
fact wasn't open but guiding me to his conclusion...eitheror stuff of
argumentation, presenting a rational (his word) argument for his
point and expecting one in return...I don't do well with that...I
like to play with what comes with no expectation of outcome...except
to expect something "more"...

This is a long way to say I continue to be here...I choose to be
here...however, I don't have any impetus to initiate as Janell
did...I don't know what that means from Robert's question's
perspectives...except to say that for me exploring deep psyche in
cyberspace requires being present and bringing one's stuff with one
and then seeing what emerges...I think this has happened over and
over here with intermissions...you certainly have done that with your
post from my perspective...I haven't had your experience, but your
forthrightness in posting feels good to me as always

Blessings,
Judith

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Aug 2001 06:56:29 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
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Dear, Dear Judith,
    It is about 5:30 am here and I can't sleep.  Last Friday I dreamed my
daughter went berserk and tried to kill me.  Last night (this morning) I
dreamed that my mother (long dead) went berserk and attacked me.
(Unfortunately this is too close to the truth for comfort) I am not right
now a 'happy camper'.  It seems that friends and family have 'leaked' from
my 'real life', by moves to other parts of the country or death.  Right now,
those who still live here in town are on vacation, busy, or in one case
(rather frighteningly) totally preoccupied with the very immediate near
death illness of a grown son.  This boy (the 'boy' is in his late 40s) is
suffering from an illness which is the same as my 2nd son, to whom I
probably feel closest.  Scary...  My friend's son was so ill that over last
weekend they summonsed his daughter from out of town for a last death bed
visit.  Fortunately the father (my friend's son...oh, dear this may be
getting a little hard to follow) anyway, the father, as of yesterday, has
turned a corner...  for now.  His organs have started functioning again
(liver, pancreas etc.)  But you can see how I cannot 'touch base' with her
over my upset dreams etc.
    Judith, this part of your post especially touched such a cord in me:

> ...I recently had months of telephone conversations with a
> person who seemed to be open to whatever emerged from our exchanges,
> but as time went on and his conversations became more detailed (and
> his e-mails long on minutia) and more linear I realized that he in
> fact wasn't open but guiding me to his conclusion...either/or stuff of
> argumentation, presenting a rational (his word) argument for his
> point and expecting one in return...I don't do well with that...

N: The 'cord' it touches is not altogether identical (though I Do understand
what you mean).  For me the feeling is a little broader.  I'm right now
feeling that everyone, in 'real life' and in  virtual lives...that isn't
quite right.  It is our means of communicating with one another which might
be called virtual, not our lives.  Your life in Ohio is real, Walter's in
NZ, mine in Georgia are all 'real' to us (though right now mine does have a
somewhat 'virtual' feel to it) But what I'm trying to get at is that I'm
feeling that everyone has so much their own agenda that it can be hard to
get truly in touch with them.  And many of them are so busy, busy, busy.  I
often feel that it is an imposition to try.
    Walter, I expect you will recognize the above, though from the other
side.  I expect you are only too well acquainted with feeling pulled this
way and that, by the needs of others trying to draw you into their reality,
when you need to be at peace in your own for a bit.  I can imagine (and
remember) the effort it takes to hold on to and tighten those silken cords
that bind your soul and body together.
    Back to my own reality.  At such times as I'm experiencing now,
cyberspace feels not enough.  My computer has been acting up (acting out?
For me perhaps?)  Should it go, my only tie with all of you out there in
virtual land would be severed.
    As I've seen the people in my 'real' life 'leaking' away, out of
physical touch, I've been trying to find a community and have become
involved with a Bible Study group at the Episcopal church.  It meets
Thursday.  My 'attack' dreams occur Friday.  The Episcopal spiritual agenda
is 'strange' to me although they are a very 'open' group.  (Aldon, are you
there?)  Yesterday's meeting was a true 'initiative's nightmare.  We have a
temporary (one year) new priest assistant, fresh out of seminary.  She (I
wish I could underline that) is black and from New York.  I sense her as
being very off balance herself right now, busy and pulled many ways.  I
Should have kept my mouth shut and Not called Yahweh a 'cranky old buzzard'
(well, almost.)
    Anyway, anyone who has read this far is surely getting the picture.  My
old friends (and family) are variously 'away'.  My connections with my 'new
friends' are not yet strong enough to have gotten over the bumps, jolts and
testings that seem always necessary.  (Is the young woman who moved to
Oregon still with us?  I can't remember here name, but I'll bet she would be
recognizing my fix.)

Judith continued:
> Taking time to digest your post which evoked some contemplation on my
> part...then I read your question to Robert re: my posting...it occurs
> to me that I am a responder, not an initiator, here as well as in my
> life...I play with what is brought to me...sort of exploring the
> inputs from people, engaging these, and seeing where this takes
> me...what can be discovered...probably  part of my beingness to
> explore......I  like to play with what comes with no expectation of
outcome...except
> to expect something "more"...

[Judith, you will recognize that I displaced a part of the above.}
>
> This is a long way to say I continue to be here...I choose to be
> here...however, I don't have any impetus to initiate as Janell
> did...I don't know what that means from Robert's question's
> perspectives...except to say that for me exploring deep psyche in
> cyberspace requires being present and bringing one's stuff with one
> and then seeing what emerges...I think this has happened over and
> over here with intermissions...you certainly have done that with your
> post from my perspective...I haven't had your experience, but your
> forthrightness in posting feels good to me as always.

N: Thanks, Judith.  I quite understand how you are saying you are and wish
to remain.  I share most of it.  What was the book, then movie short?  "Free
to be you and me".  Yes.  So we 'should' all be, yet we need some
connections... and sometimes my Me feels too different from others around me
to connect.

    Well, I feel that I have sort of 'dumped' my soul into 'cyberspace'.
Yet there is the comfort of knowing that anyone who doesn't want to notice
it, can "walk on by" with the delete or just by skimming.  (I can't believe
I'm writing this after the last post of easily feeling 'slighted'.  But at
least I won't actually 'know' I've been slighted... or might I....  hmmm.
Perhaps I'll find I've made another mistake.)
    Well, dawn is seeping in at my window so...

    Blessings on you all,

    Nancy

PS Lots of 'seepings' and 'leakings' in this post.  Maybe there's a haiku
there...  Another world-wide affilliation, The World Haiku Club.  The World
is too much with me...and...not enough.

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Aug 2001 15:02:45 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: On being here a-new
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 08/01/2001 4:06:32 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA writes:

> And Sheryl, the pumpkin soul?  I sense that life has grabbed you hard into
>  its daily grinds and that you could use a portal to "more."

Hello, dear Robert!  Are you psychic?  Hello, dear Psyber-L!

The last time I considered writing an email to the list was about May 5th,
because I embarked on another of my huge life changes.

On May 5 2001, I quit smoking cigarettes.

I smoked for 33 years, clearly an addict who lived in a world of
rationalization and apart from reality.  I smoked my entire life as an adult.
 In those 33 years, I never went more than 24 hours without a cigarette.  I
have spent my life in chunks separated by the next nicotine (and every other
toxic ghastly substance) fix.

So what this has meant to me is that I don't yet know who I am as an adult
now.  I have been *living* at an Internet site called Quitnet.org.  My life
there has been generally pragmatic, practical, rah rah, and it is working.

Paradoxically I began my journey for spiritual reasons and to find freedom
for my soul.  Hmmm, you are right, sir l'aigle, I had sought a portal to
*more*, and doing this battle was the direction I chose, for now.

Who will I be, a pumpkin of any sort?  I hope so... at least one without that
blackened inside from the smoke.  My thinking is changing, my being is
changing, and maybe I will be some better sort of pumpkin soul?

There is here in Psyber-L though, a feel of home, a feel of GREAT affection
for my fellow psyberians.  I like that.

Sheryl, pumpkinsoulevolving

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Aug 2001 17:01:48 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      The Law of Attraction
In-Reply-To:  <000b01c11c24$196f27c0$fd0f1ed0@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Well, dear Nancy, I hope you are fast asleep and having dreams of
sugar plum fairies

you wrote:
N: The 'cord' it touches is not altogether identical (though I Do understand
what you mean).  For me the feeling is a little broader.  I'm right now
feeling that everyone, in 'real life' and in  virtual lives...that isn't
quite right.  It is our means of communicating with one another which might
be called virtual, not our lives.  Your life in Ohio is real, Walter's in
NZ, mine in Georgia are all 'real' to us (though right now mine does have a
somewhat 'virtual' feel to it) But what I'm trying to get at is that I'm
feeling that everyone has so much their own agenda that it can be hard to
get truly in touch with them.  And many of them are so busy, busy, busy.  I
often feel that it is an imposition to try.

A story:
Many years ago I was surrounded by people with limiting
beliefs...stuck in scarcity and such...my voice teacher limited what
she wanted me to sound like, the choir members thot making music was
learning the notes, theatre friends telling me I was too old to get
my Equity card...you get the picture...everyone was well meaning but
lived in their lives called "can't"...so I got up one morning and
eliminated everyone I could from my life who didn't share my view or
at least didn't judge me for mine...so quit my voice teacher, quit
the choir, quit my job, and decided that at some point I would get my
Equity card which I eventually did even older...there was a void
created and what I learned was that the Universe doesn't like a void
and seeks to fill it up...and soon I began to attract non limiting
people...now years later I went to the inner city to live (my ex says
I always wanted to be a Bohemian) and without knowing it had put
myself right back in the midst of people who have limited beliefs...I
kept getting sick and theatre friends (the ones made after I did go
professional) kept saying to me "move to Cleveland Heights with Your
people"...which I eventualy did...

What I find so delicious is that for the first time I am in the
majority...I am surrounded by people living very non traditional
lives at the most and at the least raising a family around great
diversity...you'd like it here...many writers and artists

I've lived here almost 2 years...but before I moved I would drive
across town, gaze at the lake, drive through a park, and plop myself
down at Starbuck's and hang out...over these many months the void I
had in my life has been filled many times over with the people I've
met there...

The Law of Attraction at work

Blessings,
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:18:23 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Do the gods occupy cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <002801c11942$54b70120$fd0e1ed0@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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all,

Greetings to all my soulful comrades! Welcome to all you other folks who
may have joined up and found Psyber-L to be somewhat, and enigmatically so,
more composed of space than 'note'.

***

Nancy, my hypothesis is mostly commonsensical: email dialogues on listservs
unfold according to the intention and vitality of active participants. My
hypothesis is that this vitality can fall below a critical mass for which
the number of participants who's vitality is in a state of potentiality
rather than is activated is the critical factor.

Two people may vitalize a list. I suppose one person could too. But, in the
pattern defined by contributions finding no answering 'call', I assume the
critical mass has fallen below a threshold.

***

Despite this (hey, my) abstract way of looking at it, I can offer an image.
Imagine a calm mountain pond.

To toss a pebble in is to see the splash and then the ripples radiate
outward. Think of a second pebble tossed by a second person as the answer
(an email response,) to the first. If that's all that happens then the pond
is soon returned to its placid state.

This image can do duty to measure the moment-to-moment vitality of the
dialogue. In fact, we who have been here over the long term can remember
when the pond's surface was roiling with pebbles, stones, even boulder
sized rocks splashing and radiating.

To gauge a time frame appropriate to this image, I'd suggest wondering
about what the pond looks like if a pebble is dropped in today and no
answer comes within, say, 48 hours. Does the pond then return to its
calmest state?

***

Vitality is energy. In terms of energy, energy which generates intention
and engagement, energy which also measures -whether we are active or not-
the motive and power of attention brought to bear upon this
space-field-pond (!), I would note it's a neutral force in the sense that
there can be both conscious and unconscious motivations which lead to
increases and decreases in activated and 'in-potential' vitality.

***

Perhaps where simple quantities count is the way a group's constituent
'potential' is realized with respect to the variety of matters (pebbles!)
which inspire a second, third, etc., toss. Some group discussions are
organized around more singular purposes; others are more broadly
constituted. But it takes two to tango, so I'd propose that -minimally- a
broad-based group has to cultivate a variety of powerful dyads, so that,
for example, when the abstract philosopher tosses a pebble in, someone with
a sympathetic or antithetical style is attracted and is moved from
potential to activity.

***

So, maybe there is a pile of pebbles at each of our feet. Maybe we haven't
even been near the pond, or cannot be near it. Other ponds beckon! To
return here still brings to our awareness the question. . .do I add my
ripples to yours?

As always, this is just my own weird take, and mileage may very. I'll
follow up with another thought about silence.

regards and best wishes to all,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Aug 2001 11:27:12 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bent_B=F8gedal_Christoffersen?=
              <bbc@MAIL.DANBBS.DK>
Organization: Metusalem Art & music
Subject:      Sv:      Re: [P] Do the gods occupy cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hei All

  I wonder why I have started to read the list again. Oh, I think I =
know,
ist like a tension inside that must be released after a long silent
period. The lake of silence is hiding something underneath ist
clear and dark suface.
 I am one of the silent ones mostly a reader but occasionly
I have to write although english is hard for me to express accurate
enough to my own satisfaction. But also to let You know that I`m still=20
out there.
 Me too experience great changes hard ones ... Right now my wife
i asleep after cemotherapy yesterday. Have not been sleeping very
much this night ,she gets so sick from the treatment.
The spring was allright until my birthday may the 15 where we
was told that she had breastcancer. Strange to walk in to the hospital
fresh and well and then be told that one is very ill. The virtuel world =
of
a hospital. Here we have nearly only public hospitals and everybody
is doing a great job and everything is free.
My creative work with songs and sculpture has stopped. Only a few
poems is coming .I have dificulties finding out what I will do. The =
energy
is focused on taking care. And the band starts up after vacaton tomorrow =
night.
And I have not touched a guitar for a long time. Uh.
And writing here with my tears rigth behind the eyes is a big step.
And maybe it can realese a start. Writing does not
talk back face 2 face.
My job as a teacher is on a limitted level of energi although everybody =
shows
their best sides and let me cry whenever I want to and let me go out
and take care of the garden and animals on the ground whenever I want.
 The Children in the school are so good to be with they keep the live =
going and=20
I am a laughing person and so laughing ,working and crying are my game =
for
the time beeing.
Quit smoking ..Its going allright I am on a level of a few pibes of =
tobacco
instead  of  15-20 cigs a day.  Could not smoke when Jytte ( My Wife )
are ill.
Two of my best colleagues changed job and I miss them allready ,hope
that some new good ones will pop up.=20
The support from family and freinds and neighbourgs has in periods been
brimming over and have sometimes been very very emotional and hard to
take in ,but also shown people from their best side. And its warming =
like
fire on a cold day. But sometimes we just lock the door and unplug the
communication and hold hold hold each other.
 And so I cant say that I will write again but as have been reading the =
last 20=20
letters and staying up late most of the nights who knows.
 This Psyberlistexperiencebyusingitletter did do something ,a bit of
relief of somekind. Great . I think I will update the old homepage a =
bit.
Bent
www.danbbs.dk/~bbcweb

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Aug 2001 00:52:34 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Do the gods occupy cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <000a01c11cc7$adaf48e0$8712f9c3@oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Bent

>  Right now my wife
> i asleep after cemotherapy yesterday. Have not been sleeping very
> much this night ,she gets so sick from the treatment.

Bent - so sorry to hear about your wife's illness - changes that
are really hard, my heart goes out to you. Best wishes and may it
go well for her and you. Marvelous to hear your voice here again
and that of the others too!

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Aug 2001 09:57:16 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sv:      Re: [P] Do the gods occupy cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <000a01c11cc7$adaf48e0$8712f9c3@oemcomputer>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Brent,

So sorry to hear of your and your wife's challenge...I went thru 5
years of serious on and off near death illnesses and know that there
is always hope for healing...what I have learned is that the body is
a wonderous thing with volumns of wisdom which can be tapped...your
wife is so blessed to have a caring partner...tho much may be asked
of you, much will come to comfort you.

Blessings,
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Aug 2001 12:50:04 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Janell Adair <jfadair9@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sv:      Re: [P] Do the gods occupy cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

       Bent:


> ... Right now my wife
>i asleep after cemotherapy yesterday. Have not been sleeping very
>much this night ,she gets so sick from the treatment.
>The spring was allright until my birthday may the 15 where we
>was told that she had breastcancer. Strange to walk in to the hospital
>fresh and well and then be told that one is very ill. The virtuel world of
>a hospital.


    I'm so sorry to hear of your wife's health problems, I second the
fact that she's very lucky to have you as a loving partner.  I send my
prayers that things will go well for her and you during this ordeal. Your
message touched me deeply and I'm so happy that you have a place that allows
you to clear your soul, for I believe "that as the rain cleanses mother
earth that tears cleanse the soul."


         Take care.

            Love

               Janell

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Aug 2001 16:17:31 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Sv:      Re: [P] Do the gods occupy cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bent, of course I feel so sad about your wife and hearing about your
difficult time these months.  And I wish if I could cry and we all in
Psyber-L could cry, and every one of us could combine our tears together, we
could change the thing, the malignancy.  And that would make your wife whole
again, and you whole again, and the beauty of the feeling of that would come
out to each of us in cyberspace, enveloping us.  Then we could say, oh yes,
our souls do touch each other, don't they?

But, that wouldn't happen, it's just a fantasy in my mind, of what I would
like things to be, what I wish things were, but are not.

So just know, I hope you will know from this, that I am thinking of you too,
and your dear wife, (certainly very dear, very dear to you for all your pain,
if she weren't so dear would you feel this pain?) and some of that pain
touches me, and seems to touch elsewhere in pcysyber land.  That I have tears
now too for your pain.

Below the tears though is also anger.  Walter mentioned a pond and a stone,
but I just want to say that in my pond is anger and maybe intense rage.  And
I wouldn't be surprised if there is rage other places in psyber land as
well... for that matter in life anywhere.  I am angry that this is happening
to you, Bent.

And I have tears too.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Aug 2001 14:51:17 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Sv:      Re: [P] Do the gods occupy cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <a0.1843668e.289db25b@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Bent,

As one musician to another:

{{{{{{{{{BENT}}}}}}}}}}

A group hug.  You are painfully feeling mortality.  It is painful to
realise and accept that we and our loved ones are mortal.  What is most
painful is the horror of loss, of loneliness.  Hold fast to your love, my
friend.  Love is all there is, love is all there is, love is all there is
...  Love doesn't die, it morphs.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Aug 2001 12:47:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sv:      Re: [P] Do the gods occupy cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bent:


> ... Right now my wife
>i asleep after cemotherapy yesterday. Have not been sleeping very
>much this night ,she gets so sick from the treatment.
>The spring was allright until my birthday may the 15 where we
>was told that she had breastcancer. Strange to walk in to the hospital
>fresh and well and then be told that one is very ill. The virtuel world of
>a hospital.


        I'm so sorry to hear of your wife's health problems, I second the
fact that she's very lucky to have you as a loving partner.  I send my
prayers that things will go well for her and you during this ordeal. Your
message touched me deeply and I'm so happy that you have a place that allows
you to clear your soul, for I believe "that as the rain cleanses mother
earth that tears cleanse the soul."


         Take care.

            Love

               Janell

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Aug 2001 19:06:43 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sv:      Re: [P] Do the gods occupy cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Bent,

    I am so sorry to hear about your wife and the suffering you are both
experiencing.  The others here speak to this far better than I can.
    All  I can contribute is that I've had a number of friends go through
breast cancer and all have passed their 5 year 'all clear' check.  To the
gods, wherever they are, may it be the same with your wife.
    I'm so glad you've been able to quit the cigarettes and given your own
health a better chance.
    I can identify so well when you say,
        "Writing does not
talk back face 2 face."  I am so glad you have such understanding people
about you who are there when you need them, but give you the space to feel
you own way through this painful time.
    All my good wishes to you and your wife,
    Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Aug 2001 11:19:58 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: The Law of Attraction
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  Good morning, Judith,

> Well, dear Nancy, I hope you are fast asleep and having dreams of
> sugar plum fairies

N Thank you for your good wishes.  I'm certainly doing better than I was ...
Wed?.  Though haven't seen any 'sugar plums' yets.  May be just as well,
since for me even the sight would probably be fattening!

Judith writes:
> A story:
> Many years ago I was surrounded by people with limiting
> beliefs...stuck in scarcity and such...my voice teacher limited what
> she wanted me to sound like, the choir members thot making music was
> learning the notes, theatre friends telling me I was too old to get
> my Equity card...you get the picture...everyone was well meaning but
> lived in their lives called "can't"...so I got up one morning and
> eliminated everyone I could from my life who didn't share my view or
> at least didn't judge me for mine...so quit my voice teacher, quit
> the choir, quit my job, and decided that at some point I would get my
> Equity card which I eventually did even older...there was a void
> created and what I learned was that the Universe doesn't like a void
> and seeks to fill it up...and soon I began to attract non limiting
> people...now years later I went to the inner city to live (my ex says
> I always wanted to be a Bohemian) and without knowing it had put
> myself right back in the midst of people who have limited beliefs...I
> kept getting sick and theatre friends (the ones made after I did go
> professional) kept saying to me "move to Cleveland Heights with Your
> people"...which I eventualy did...
>
> What I find so delicious is that for the first time I am in the
> majority...I am surrounded by people living very non traditional
> lives at the most and at the least raising a family around great
> diversity...you'd like it here...many writers and artists
>
> I've lived here almost 2 years...but before I moved I would drive
> across town, gaze at the lake, drive through a park, and plop myself
> down at Starbuck's and hang out...over these many months the void I
> had in my life has been filled many times over with the people I've
> met there...

N: Judith, I never stop being amazed by your bounces from illness to health.
Your resiliance in all things is to be admired.
    I envy you having found such a compatible community in which to live.
Wish I could locate such a 'Continuing Care'.  My sister-in-law 13 years
older and in Maryland says very firmly that one should have such a place
picked out before one is 70.  Easier said than done, say I.
    I think it's wonderful that your law works so well for you.
>
> The Law of Attraction at work
>
> Blessings,
> Judith
>
And blessings to you,
    Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Aug 2001 20:35:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sv:      Re: [P] Do the gods occupy cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <a0.1843668e.289db25b@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Bent,

I wish for you patience and hope also I wish for the same for all of those
who are praying and giving you their support. Your wife is facing down a
painful and terrible challenge. Believe me your lives will change as you
regard what truly counts and what doesn't.

***

Be hopeful. As we grow older life becomes more difficult. Terrifying
visitations seem to demand almost too much. Put your trust in your most
noble capabilities.

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Aug 2001 22:24:56 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <006501c11b99$b7b01100$bb0f1ed0@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Nancy
  Re: [P] Psyche in Cyberspace
  Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:25:55 -0700


> Truthfully, if, by psyche we mean soul, I haven't met very many people
> whose soul glows from them anywhere.

I saw the movie "Elvis - That's the way it was" - and thought how
he was adored for revealing is soul - psyche - self easily.  By
being himself to an extreme, maximised version of himself his
soul shone through - easy to see.

He was somehow revealing his soul as "icon" which included the
tragedy of it all - the masked vulnerability and ultimate self
destruction - all part of his soul.

~~~

I am surprised you don't see the souls glow!  The Elvis example
is extreme, but even here... it seems every post is stamped with
the soul of its writer.

Janell - "Is there anyone here?" call... this has awoken this
group on several occasions...  There is a particular quality
about asking that question into the silence that evokes a sense
of soul to me.

I have a sense that these fragments reveal the whole...

It may be "projection" but I can imagine entering heaven or hell
and through the mist (or smoke) hearing the call "Is there anyone
here?" - and thinking, Ah here is Janell.

~~~

How characteristic each of our posting styles is!  Is character
the same as soul, I think so.


~~~

Busy busy busy as you say Nancy and torn in many directions but
good to be here reading the latest posts.


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Aug 2001 22:29:15 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <v0421010fb78fdbd9b919@[207.54.160.244]>
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JB <judithb@APK.NET>

  Re: [P] Psyche in Cyberspace
  Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:01:11 -0700


> Taking time to digest your post which evoked some contemplation on my
> part...then I read your question to Robert re: my posting...it occurs
> to me that I am a responder, not an initiator, here as well as in my
> life...I play with what is brought to me.

Just following up on that idea of soul shining through...
capturing something essential like that in a role description is
nice - a way of seeing into the depths of your character Judith.
Also of course into the dynamics here - the character of the
group:

"I am a responder, not an initiator"

~~~

Something I know about me:  I am a dreamer.


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Aug 2001 22:45:30 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
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JB <judithb@APK.NET>

  Re: [P] Psyche in Cyberspace
  Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:01:11 -0700


> except to say that for me exploring deep psyche in
> cyberspace requires being present and bringing one's stuff with one
> and then seeing what emerges...

I have a strong sense of you doing that here - i love your story
of creating void and then letting it fill and finding your place.
You may be a responder but you are able to be present when you do
respond.

I am still searching. That is another thing i know about myself:

I am an explorer.

I looked at a book on palmistry once when a teenager, and the
shape of my hands were according to the book:  Explorers hands -
(I only notice the vague unintended sexual pun now) - I thought
the book was right - it named something in me even then.

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Aug 2001 22:53:43 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
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Nancy

> Walter, I expect you will recognize the above, though from the other
> side.  I expect you are only too well acquainted with feeling pulled this
> way and that, by the needs of others trying to draw you into their reality,
> when you need to be at peace in your own for a bit.  I can imagine (and
> remember) the effort it takes to hold on to and tighten those silken cords
> that bind your soul and body together.

I am being pulled a little into being here right now... as i have
said, I need space for myself and this both is an is not what i
need right now.  The reason for not needing it is that i have had
a day of 7 clients, and been looking at real estate, and been on
the phone with Kate for an hour or more and I need to go an eat!
even thought it is 10.55pm!

However i am loving this psyber-l revival!  And it is good for me
i think.

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Aug 2001 23:06:36 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Attack
In-Reply-To:  <000b01c11c24$196f27c0$fd0f1ed0@default>
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Nancy

> It is about 5:30 am here and I can't sleep.  Last Friday I dreamed my
> daughter went berserk and tried to kill me.  Last night (this morning) I
> dreamed that my mother (long dead) went berserk and attacked me.
> (Unfortunately this is too close to the truth for comfort) I am not right
> now a 'happy camper'.  It seems that friends and family have 'leaked' from
> my 'real life', by moves to other parts of the country or death.



Nancy, thanks for sharing your dreams and story!  Good to get to
know you better.  Your sensitivity to being slighted and your
ability to overcome it in your own way seems to me to be soul
stuff shining (leaking, seeping?) through.

That cord (chord?) in you that is sensitive to attack is wide
open in the dreams.  I imagine that the dreams are painful
because they are attacks by loved ones.

How much might the dreams be (also) about a  Mother Daughter
dynamic? I mean archetypically.  If I had the dreams, as a man
i'd be quick to think what old fminine stuff is at war with new
feminine stuff.  How did the old feminine stuff give birth to the
new feminine stuff?  Is the vulnerability to attack related to
something "open"...

~~~

> My 'attack' dreams occur Friday.  The Episcopal spiritual agenda
> is 'strange' to me although they are a very 'open' group.  (Aldon, are you
> there?)  Yesterday's meeting was a true 'initiative's nightmare.  We have a
> temporary (one year) new priest assistant, fresh out of seminary.  She (I
> wish I could underline that) is black and from New York.  I sense her as
> being very off balance herself right now, busy and pulled many ways.  I
> Should have kept my mouth shut and Not called Yahweh a 'cranky old buzzard'
> (well, almost.)

I notice you want to underline *she* and that there is nightmare
here too.

Open and lealing and seeping go together too...

all for now... of for a late inner city urban snack! & then home.


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Aug 2001 10:45:02 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <006501c11b99$b7b01100$bb0f1ed0@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Well, I was away for the weekend and surprised to find
all the email that had piled up while I was gone.  I
am wandering through it and thinking a little bit
about what people have written.  I imagine I'll toss
out a few more comments later.
   Nancy's comments about getting a 'sense' of another
person online really hits home for me.  As I have
written about before, I was part of a study where
students attempted to get a physical sense of who they
were chatting with online.
(http://www.ascusc.org/jcmc/vol5/issue1/jacobson.html)
   The author of this is thinking of doing a study
this year with his students, trying to get more of
some sort of psychological sense.  For lack of
anything better, it may well be a Meyer's Briggs
sense.
   How do we get a sense of others online?  What is
that like?  How do we give others a sense of who we
are?  Is this a skill that can be learned, different
from how we get a sense of others or give a sense of
ourselves?
   Personally, I think so.  I think I'm better at
getting a sense of the people I chat with online that
a lot of people are.  Personally, I think I am also
better at giving a sense of who I am.  I suspect some
of this comes from a love of writing, and hence, I
suspect that many of the people on this list are
particularly good at giving a sense of who they are.
   Enough for now.  Let me read a little more and
comment later.

Aldon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:07:46 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <000b01c11c24$196f27c0$fd0f1ed0@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Yes, I am here.  Yes, I can talk for a long time about
female Episcopalian priests, and who knows, I might
make a comment or two about them in this post before I
get through.  However, the end of Nancy's post where
she writes "The World is too much with me...and...not
enough." brings to mind Frost's Birches...

So was I once myself a swinger of birches.
And so I dream of going back to be.
It's when I'm weary of considerations,
And life is too much like a pathless wood
Where your face burns and tickles with the cobwebs
Broken across it, and one eye is weeping
From a twig's having lashed across it open.
I'd like to get away from earth awhile
And then come back to it and begin over.
May no fate willfully misunderstand me
And half grant what I wish and snatch me away
Not to return.  Earth's the right place for love:
I don't know where it's likely to go better.
I'd like to go by climbing a birch tree,
And climb black branches up a snow-white trunk
Toward heaven, till the tree could bear no more,
But dipped its top and set me down again.
That would be good both going and coming back.
One could do worse than be a swinger of birches


So, I feel as if we have been wandering in a silent
pathless wood for a while, and have come out to a
clearing.  Is this saying something about our psyches?
 Or maybe about some group psyche?  Is the dot.com
collapse almost over?  Are people poking their heads
out to see what is going on?  I hope so.  I am still
out of work.  The funds start to dwindle and the new
baby is coming.

I have many friends online fighting many health
battles.  One, with Crohn's disease has also recently
joined an Episcopalian study group.  What will emerge
from that?  I wait and see.

And then today, another friend I haven't seen since
March re-appeared online.  Is there something
happening here?

I'll ponder a bit more...

Aldon


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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Aug 2001 21:30:21 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bent_B=F8gedal_Christoffersen?=
              <bbc@MAIL.DANBBS.DK>
Organization: Metusalem Art & music
Subject:      Sv:      Re: [P] Sv:      Re: [P] Do the gods occupy cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Oh my heart
 If anyone doubts the depth of the people on this list.....!
I take every answer as a dearly gift wich I will study
carefully slowly and with love to all this beutiful comforting
words.=20
tears. right now. given all the statictic about this
shit cancer. they say we stand a good chance and we should be
happy.
 i have faced a lot of people who now are death and gone but=20
this time. .....Now I have got a ring on my finger. i cant remember
when we were married but when we met and the year in the ring
( silver ring and Jyttes wish ) 1973.
 i have never thaught that i would be 53 so i have this feeling =
traveling
with me from the Youth. everyday counts. Every hour every minute
every second. But I am never ill. With anything. I should have been
long gone with the life i wish to live.
 oh why am I saying this "i am afreid that i will be alone " and Jytte
will end her life as a cancer patient.
 But we have also the wish and strengt so far to fight it. With every
fiber in our power.
 i hope that ,no I know that its allright that I`ll write here some =
times
not following a tread but just expres some feelings i a =
cyberlistdoingitandlearningway
becauce it feels good.
=20
"But only love can break Your heart"

Bent

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:04:31 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sv:      Re: [P] Sv:      Re: [P] Do the gods occupy
              cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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    It is Most all right that you write of your feelings here, Bent.  I am
only glad if either writing or reading with us can bring you any comfort.
    We are all feeling both for and with you.
    This little bit from your message especially brings tears to my eyes:

>  i have faced a lot of people who now are death and gone but
> this time. .....Now I have got a ring on my finger. i cant remember
> when we were married but when we met and the year in the ring
> ( silver ring and Jyttes wish ) 1973.

    How lucky Jytte is to have you.

    All blessings,

    Nancy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bent Bgedal Christoffersen" <bbc@MAIL.DANBBS.DK>
To: <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 12:30 PM
Subject: [P] Sv: Re: [P] Sv: Re: [P] Do the gods occupy cyberspace


> Oh my heart
>  If anyone doubts the depth of the people on this list.....!
> I take every answer as a dearly gift wich I will study
> carefully slowly and with love to all this beutiful comforting
> words.
> tears. right now. given all the statictic about this
> shit cancer. they say we stand a good chance and we should be
> happy.
>  i have faced a lot of people who now are death and gone but
> this time. .....Now I have got a ring on my finger. i cant remember
> when we were married but when we met and the year in the ring
> ( silver ring and Jyttes wish ) 1973.
>  i have never thaught that i would be 53 so i have this feeling traveling
> with me from the Youth. everyday counts. Every hour every minute
> every second. But I am never ill. With anything. I should have been
> long gone with the life i wish to live.
>  oh why am I saying this "i am afreid that i will be alone " and Jytte
> will end her life as a cancer patient.
>  But we have also the wish and strengt so far to fight it. With every
> fiber in our power.
>  i hope that ,no I know that its allright that I`ll write here some times
> not following a tread but just expres some feelings i a
cyberlistdoingitandlearningway
> becauce it feels good.
>
> "But only love can break Your heart"
>
> Bent
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Aug 2001 08:59:24 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Attack
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter wrote:
>
> Nancy:
> > It is about 5:30 am here and I can't sleep.  Last Friday I dreamed my
> > daughter went berserk and tried to kill me.  Last night (this morning) I
> > dreamed that my mother (long dead) went berserk and attacked me.
> > (Unfortunately this is too close to the truth for comfort) I am not
right
> > now a 'happy camper'.  It seems that friends and family have 'leaked'
from
> > my 'real life', by moves to other parts of the country or death.
>
>
>
W:> Nancy, thanks for sharing your dreams and story!  Good to get to
> know you better.  Your sensitivity to being slighted and your
> ability to overcome it in your own way seems to me to be soul
> stuff shining (leaking, seeping?) through.

N:   I'm thinking from the above and references in other posts, that you are
not using 'soul' and 'Self' interchangeably.  This then would alter what I
originally said about soul/Self.  My take is that you are using 'soul' in
the sense of some more individual quality each has uniquely.  In this case,
I too, would say that each of us does show 'soul' here, sort of as one
develops one's own 'voice' in writing.
       This week I've been seeing what I'd call 'soul' (ammended by your
usage) most clearly in Bent.
    Still this leaves me with lots of qualities?  stuff? each shows which we
might not call 'soul'.  Can you help me with this distinction, if indeed you
also see it?

>
> That cord (chord?) in you that is sensitive to attack is wide
> open in the dreams.  I imagine that the dreams are painful
> because they are attacks by loved ones.

N: The one about my daughter trying to kill me was a true nightmare from
which I roused only slowly.  The fear carried through the rousing and even
after.  I was afraid to move to turn on the light.
>
> How much might the dreams be (also) about a  Mother Daughter
> dynamic? I mean archetypically.  If I had the dreams, as a man
> i'd be quick to think what old fminine stuff is at war with new
> feminine stuff.  How did the old feminine stuff give birth to the
> new feminine stuff?  Is the vulnerability to attack related to
> something "open"...
>
N; I appreciate these suggestions.  So far my notions are two-fold.  !) Both
mother and daughter in these dreams are 'beserk'.  I read that as possessed
and wonder if the archetypal feminine is so doomed culturally to carry
'emotion' as a yin characteristic, that 'possess' might appear in dreams in
feminine form.  Perhaps my own fear of being seized by possess.  Or, 2) The
two dreams represent caretakers, past and future, with the attendent feel of
being dependent on those who don't always 'keep their wits about them' so to
speak.  Lack containment perhaps.
    Of late I've been unable to talk to my daughter by phone without her
heaping me with verbal abuse.  At these times it does feel as if she is
'possessed' and I do feel that the results 'are killing me' in the
colloquial sense.

> ~~~
>
> > My 'attack' dreams occur Friday.  The Episcopal spiritual agenda
> > is 'strange' to me although they are a very 'open' group.  (Aldon, are
you
> > there?)  Yesterday's meeting was a true 'initiative's nightmare.  We
have a
> > temporary (one year) new priest assistant, fresh out of seminary.  She
(I
> > wish I could underline that) is black and from New York.  I sense her as
> > being very off balance herself right now, busy and pulled many ways.  I
> > Should have kept my mouth shut and Not called Yahweh a 'cranky old
buzzard'
> > (well, almost.)
>
> I notice you want to underline *she* and that there is nightmare
> here too.

N: I began the sentence with She so there was no way to give it emphasis
which I felt was needed to emphasis the three characterists which make this
priest different from most priests.
>
> Open and lealing and seeping go together too...

N: And often in dreams or sybolic life stand for difficulty in containing
emotions.  The departure of friends and family (the daughter in the dream is
the only family I have nearby) through death of moves, and the still tenuous
bonds with new friends does leave me without extended container or 'bouncing
off of' walls for intimate issues.
>
> all for now... of for a late inner city urban snack! & then home.

N: Walter, I hope that you and Kate can find a way to be geographically
closer together without either having to give up too much in career
investments.  It seems to me that the current arrangement must be quite
tiring and stressful for both.

Thanks for taking an interest and all the best to you,

        Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:48:38 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <91qsmtgcnfmuh17rk4srvk4c7rj02us95l@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Walter and all



>JB
>
>> except to say that for me exploring deep psyche in
>> cyberspace requires being present and bringing one's stuff with one
>> and then seeing what emerges...
>
>W:I have a strong sense of you doing that here - i love your story
>of creating void and then letting it fill and finding your place.
>You may be a responder but you are able to be present when you do
>respond.
>
>I am still searching. That is another thing i know about myself:
>
>I am an explorer.

I think exploring is great fun...I spent my entire life up until my
self bifracated as an explorer...exploring inner space...exploring
how the universe "works"...how things manifest...how life
"works"...exploring how I "worked"...exploring what "worked"...my
only rememberances from H.S. history is about the explorers...what
has happened as a result of the focus of my exploration is a deep
knowing of how things "work"...now somehow it seems I have
"arrived"...found land...what I learned with my health intensives is
that it took a moment by moment focus in the present in the space
between the physical pain...it took responding...I learned about
responding from exploring

However, what I now have an experienced sense of is how the Universe
initiates through me in a flow of what I can only describe as a flow
to become...and then I am the responder...I am the responder to the
flow molding it through my uniqueness which then moves out into
reality initiating manifestation of some sort...it's the infinity
dance...Bohm's folding and enfolding...creation

>
>I looked at a book on palmistry once when a teenager, and the
>shape of my hands were according to the book:  Explorers hands -
>(I only notice the vague unintended sexual pun now) - I thought
>the book was right - it named something in me even then.
>
>Walter

what is the Poust quote? something like (forgive the butchering) it
is not about seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes

Blessings,
Judith

>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:00:47 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Health and dis-ease
In-Reply-To:  <20010806180746.85460.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Aldon you wrote:

<I have many friends online fighting many health
battles.  One, with Crohn's disease has also recently
joined an Episcopalian study group.  What will emerge
from that?  I wait and see.>

I wonder at all the health challenges as it relates to the health of
the earth...are we in some way healing the earth as we touch the
healing within ourselves?  Interesting "Crohn"...sounds like Crone,
yes?  An immune system condition...Is this a disease of the
feminine...the body's immune system breaking down under the
pressure...sometimes I weep as I read all the medicals belief that
growing organs is the answer...take your body into the body shop and
have your bladder replaced...the masculine answer...tending my
clients' gardens is my answer...the clients too busy to tend their
own...short of taking out my water pistol and shooting someone, it's
what I can do

Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:49:58 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
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    I'm just wanting to say 'hi' to some who've reappear, but I've not yet
directly acknowledged.

    Aldon, always good to 'see' you.  I scanned the study you forward.
Personally I quite like being present 'out of body', nor do I mind it in
others.  Perhaps it is easier to notice essence (soul?) this way.  I  hope
you'll let if the Myers-Briggs is done and put online.
    Thank you for the Frost poem I'd forgotten it and was pleased to reread.
Also I'm hoping you Will tell about other distaff priests you've know.

    And to the koanish Shephen, always glad to 'see' an old 'face', whether
I understand what you say or not.  Mostly this time I did.  As someone here
once remarked you and Judith talk the same language.

    It is odd, but somehow I have less a sense of you Linda, Jarell and
Sheryl, than of some others.  I don't know quite what to make of it.  One
factor certainly is that I've 'know' you less long than some.

    At any rate, blessings on all known and unknown,
        Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:40:56 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: On being here a-new
In-Reply-To:  <e4.18ca9c38.289c4f55@aol.com>
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Sheryl,

>Hello, dear Robert!  Are you psychic?

Yes and no <smile>.

>On May 5 2001, I quit smoking cigarettes.

Congratulations.  In my estimation, this is very good news.  Respect for
"self" comes in many ways.  The respect of the container, the body, is
probably the primary task for each of us.  Judith is a great example of
this.  I do have to admit that for St. John of the Cross (Dark Night of the
Soul), this was his least concern.  An interesting story to read, the life
of St. John of the Cross (St Juan de la Cruz).

>There is here in Psyber-L though, a feel of home, a feel of GREAT
>affection for my fellow psyberians.  I like that.

So do I.  It is good to be talking again.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:35:56 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: On being here a-new
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Hello again, Judith,

>Well, I seem to be "doing" as opposed to "being" these days...Nu-Me's
>new locus of focus...for the first time in years I can actually look
>forward in my life past the immediate moment...

That is good news!

>Interestingly this new "doing" person is now busy doing gardening for
>people...doing my soul's work...I've surely done this before because
>with a modicum of knowledge I seem to "know" what to do...open to the
>Universal knowledge available to me...tending the beauty of the earth
>while people are out "doing" their life...which combines my need to
>be with my necessity of doing...which then leaves less time to "be"
>here...but much more to engage with here...lots of paradox going on
>these days...

I can relate to gardening being "soul" work.  The soul is a dark and moist
place of fertility.  The planting of seeds and the bringing forth of
another generation of ... life.  Interesting how the soul for a man is
referred to as anima, the female ... and animus for the woman, the male.

>So it seems I've let go of the platform of one life and have embarked
>across the tightrope toward the new...

So it is with all of us who are fully into living on the edge, always on
the tightrope even if that is a tightrope of inner and outer worlds, the
tightrope of life and death, the tightrope of dualities.

Thankful for your presence,

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Aug 2001 15:01:34 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Geography & real estate
In-Reply-To:  <004f01c11f59$ef64de00$540f1ed0@default>
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Nancy, all,

Re: [P] Attack

> N: Walter, I hope that you and Kate can find a way to be geographically
> closer together without either having to give up too much in career
> investments.  It seems to me that the current arrangement must be quite
> tiring and stressful for both.

Thanks.  I have been making a frenzy of trips from one home to
another.  I no sooner got up to see kate a few days ago than i
needed to go back to look at a prospective unit I thought might
be *just right* - I was scared someone would snap it up from
under me.  But alas when i saw it closer up I did not want it! So
back up the hill!

The distance will remain and I'll keep looking to find a home to
replace the now oversized old family home.

I have been thinking about soul & self.

One of the things i yearn for is to get this nagging real estate
off my mind... is it really what stops me from sitting here
writing and thinking about soul and self?

It does not stop me thinking anyway!  But writing yes.  My life
is in such turmoil.  Not just houses but the changes... not just
in our relationship but also changes in my work.  I am back to
working hard... a good sale of our old villa might give me a step
into some free time ... at least in theory available for what I
am craving ... meditative writing on the net.

All minor struggles compared to Bent's... and my thoughts are
with you Bent... these are my life issues right now!  Mostly a
drag... but also an adventure I am reluctantly forced into
dragging my feet all the way.

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:10:48 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Geography & real estate
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Good morning (here) Walter and all,

    I had a very unusual dream night before last.  Very archetypal and
collective, pulling together the many wisps and conflicts in my mind of
late... including some thoughts of list members and their situations.  I
won't try to post or even summarize it, as it was long, complex and
especially because it had some horrifyingly graphic images which I had
trouble dealing with myself and am unwilling to foist into the memories of
others.  Something of a nightmare really in some aspects.  I woke in fear
with the last image still unfinished, as alchemical processes of psyche
always are, to some degree.
    I mention it because of the sense of increased insight it gave into the
life situations of others.  How so many of us (I think especially of Walter
and Aldon as I write this) are caught in situations where we are forced,
against our preferences, to deal with the 'practical' details of life,
without being able to quite see an ideal outcome.  Perhaps I am beginning to
have some slight understanding of faith;  at least as it applies to
confidence in the Self's ability to reorganize and resolve our dilemmas
without our direct conscious know-how and direction.
    For what it's worth to each and any here.

    My thoughts are with you,

    Nancy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Logeman" <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
To: <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 3:01 PM
Subject: [P] Geography & real estate


> Nancy, all,
>
> Re: [P] Attack
>
> > N: Walter, I hope that you and Kate can find a way to be geographically
> > closer together without either having to give up too much in career
> > investments.  It seems to me that the current arrangement must be quite
> > tiring and stressful for both.
>
> Thanks.  I have been making a frenzy of trips from one home to
> another.  I no sooner got up to see kate a few days ago than i
> needed to go back to look at a prospective unit I thought might
> be *just right* - I was scared someone would snap it up from
> under me.  But alas when i saw it closer up I did not want it! So
> back up the hill!
>
> The distance will remain and I'll keep looking to find a home to
> replace the now oversized old family home.
>
> I have been thinking about soul & self.
>
> One of the things i yearn for is to get this nagging real estate
> off my mind... is it really what stops me from sitting here
> writing and thinking about soul and self?
>
> It does not stop me thinking anyway!  But writing yes.  My life
> is in such turmoil.  Not just houses but the changes... not just
> in our relationship but also changes in my work.  I am back to
> working hard... a good sale of our old villa might give me a step
> into some free time ... at least in theory available for what I
> am craving ... meditative writing on the net.
>
> All minor struggles compared to Bent's... and my thoughts are
> with you Bent... these are my life issues right now!  Mostly a
> drag... but also an adventure I am reluctantly forced into
> dragging my feet all the way.
>
> Walter
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:05:36 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Conflict and the Self
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    The story below comes from a cousin in Texas suffering from cancer and
radiation treatments.

Subject: Divorce


An elderly man in Phoenix calls his son in New York and says, "I
hate to ruin your day, but I have to tell you that your mother and
I are divorcing; forty-five years of misery is enough.

"Pop, what are you talking about?" the son screams.

"We can't stand the sight of each other any longer," the old man
says. "We're sick of each other, and I'm sick of talking about
this, so you call your sister in Chicago and tell her," and he
hangs up.

Frantic, the son calls his sister, who explodes on the phone.
"They're not getting divorced if I have anything to do about it,"
she shouts, "I'll take care of this."

She calls Phoenix immediately, and screams at the old man, "You are
NOT getting divorced. Don't do a single thing until I get there.
I'm calling my brother back, and we'll both be there tomorrow.
Until then, don't do a thing, DO YOU HEAR ME?" and hangs up.

The old man hangs up his phone and turns to his wife.

"Okay," he says, "They're coming for Thanksgiving and paying their
own fares...Now what do we tell them for Christmas?


Don't be pushed by your problems, be lead by your dreams.

N: This seems 'on topic' for this list today.  Err... What topic?  How?
Where'd it go.  Or as someone on another list quotes at the bottom of each
post:

"it is incumbent upon those with short attention spans to...to....oh, look!
A birdy!"

No 'birds' to any,

    NancyS

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:07:53 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 08/07/2001 2:52:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
nsmith@NEGIA.NET writes:

>    It is odd, but somehow I have less a sense of you Linda, Jarell and
>  Sheryl, than of some others.  I don't know quite what to make of it.  One
>  factor certainly is that I've 'know' you less long than some.
>

What do you think might help you get a better sense of me, Nancy?  Some of
this learning about me is new to myself now, too.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:07:53 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Geography & real estate
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 08/10/2001 9:07:17 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> I have been thinking about soul & self.
>
>  One of the things i yearn for is to get this nagging real estate
>  off my mind... is it really what stops me from sitting here
>  writing and thinking about soul and self?
>
>  It does not stop me thinking anyway!  But writing yes.  My life
>  is in such turmoil.  Not just houses but the changes... not just
>  in our relationship but also changes in my work.  I am back to
>  working hard... a good sale of our old villa might give me a step
>  into some free time ... at least in theory available for what I
>  am craving ... meditative writing on the net.

I've been gathering that several of us are experiencing varieties of turmoil
in our lives, more so in "real" than virtual.  Or maybe I don't mean turmoil
as much as change, and searching for the positive results, or the benefits,
or the *good* results... where are they?  when will they come?

But an odd aside to this for me is that Psyber-L itself has become far less
tense, contentious, striving, yearning kind of place!

It doesn't feel to me now so much that we are having to go somewhere or do
something.  That we are ok to just be for awhile and that Psyber-L has become
a more safe place to write and express ourselves.

I appreciate that deeply, when it seems like franticism is so much everywhere
else.  Franticism = cell phones, pagers, technology.

Just some thoughts.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:28:21 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sheryl Garner" <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
To: <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [P] Psyche in Cyberspace


> In a message dated 08/07/2001 2:52:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> nsmith@NEGIA.NET writes:
>
> >    It is odd, but somehow I have less a sense of you Linda, Jarell and
> >  Sheryl, than of some others.  I don't know quite what to make of it.
One
> >  factor certainly is that I've 'know' you less long than some.
> >
>
> What do you think might help you get a better sense of me, Nancy?

N: I fear even answering the question might be a detriment.  Making any
suggestions might tend to warp you enough out of your orbit, so as to make
it less You of whom I get a sense.  I feel as if I was beginning to know you
a little and the long silence here may have erased some memories.
    My best answer seems to be time and attention.

> Some of
> this learning about me is new to myself now, too.

N: Might you care to say how or why that is particularly 'now'?
>
> Sheryl

N: Looking foreward to the process itself,

    Nancy
    (Curious as usual.)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:55:57 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 08/12/2001 1:30:46 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
nsmith@NEGIA.NET writes:

I had written...
>  Some of
>  > this learning about me is new to myself now, too.
>
>  N: Might you care to say how or why that is particularly 'now'?

For me the now is because I have quit smoking, which seems to be altering me
- to me alone I presume - profoundly.  To others, I doubt the difference in
me would seem profound, but then why would they care to observe the
difference?

I say this pragmatically... the past couple of years have seemed to me to be
generally, years of the mind, and technology, and doing, not years of the
heart, and being.  At least, I haven't experienced much heart lately.  And I
do seem reluctant generally to give it now as well.

But... just a resting period, I hope.  But I do love to see it!

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:05:40 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Geography & real estate
In-Reply-To:  <005301c12351$bc274d60$610f1ed0@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy

> How so many of us (I think especially of Walter
> and Aldon as I write this) are caught in situations where we are forced,
> against our preferences, to deal with the 'practical' details of life,
> without being able to quite see an ideal outcome.  Perhaps I am beginning to
> have some slight understanding of faith;  at least as it applies to
> confidence in the Self's ability to reorganize and resolve our dilemmas
> without our direct conscious know-how and direction.

>     For what it's worth to each and any here.

Lovely thought - even if it came with accompanying nightmareish
images.  I certainly have a faith that the geographic challenge
is of the psyche as much as kilometers - it is "soul making".  I
am not doing a "positive thinking" number on it - it is simply
that it is forcing expansion of self - soul - perspective -
character to not put fine distinctions on those for the moment
(that will come though! hehehe).

>     My thoughts are with you,

Nice to have them - and also to say my thoughts are with you and
others here.

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Aug 2001 22:06:58 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Geography & real estate
In-Reply-To:  <c8.18fcf4cb.28a82e09@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl,

> It doesn't feel to me now so much that we are having to go somewhere or do
> something.  That we are ok to just be for awhile and that Psyber-L has become
> a more safe place to write and express ourselves.
>
> I appreciate that deeply, when it seems like franticism is so much everywhere
> else.  Franticism = cell phones, pagers, technology.
>
> Just some thoughts.

Your thoughts are welcoming and reassuring to me.  We dont need
to go anywhere or do anything! It is interesting that there may
be some inverse proportion to our "external" strivings... where i
know something does need to be done!  Nice to be here.

~~~

> Franticism = cell phones, pagers, technology.

One options that re-currs is to transfer this list, with little
hassle to anyone, to a Yahoogroup - but I will not do it - simply
so that there are no ads.  Ads are everywhere and I find them
part of that franticism.


Walter

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