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To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Apr 2001 22:20:14 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Anyone there?????
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Hello Anyone there??


    I'm wondering if I missed the move to another server that Walter =
talked about, because I'm not sure if any messages are getting through, =
since I haven't had any since 3/21/01.

  Let me know if anyone on Psyber-L gets this.

    Thanks Janell Adair

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Apr 2001 02:37:07 -0000
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         linda oulton <flamingleaf@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Anyone there?????
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FINALLY

a voice from the deep blue yonder!

Linda





>Hello Anyone there??
>
>
>     I'm wondering if I missed the move to another server that Walter
>talked about, because I'm not sure if any messages are getting through,
>since I haven't had any since 3/21/01.
>
>   Let me know if anyone on Psyber-L gets this.
>
>     Thanks Janell Adair
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Apr 2001 17:18:16 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <002701c0c09b$bc793da0$db5179a5@janellad>
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Janell, All

Re: [P] Anyone there?????

> I'm wondering if I missed the move to another server that
> Walter talked about

I will be very vocal upon any changes here - server or otherwise.

~~~

I could not bear to have another post about the silence etc.  I
am just not in the mood for it!  So i changed the name of the
thread! And the thread itself :) though still related.

I was thinking that we are in for a huge change in the Internet
again.  This group has already been through a lot, all reflective
of larger internet forces - I ma not sure of the exact dates.

Phase 1.  Six or so people on the Psybernet BBS in 1993 for a
year or so.

Phase 2.  A move from the BBS to the pre Web Net, using my own
Mailgate Server.

Phase 3.  Closing the BBS and using ther commercial listserv we
have now, and setting up a Psybernet Web Page.  The 1996
DreamEvent.  Flames.

Phase 4.  Closing the archives to the public and setting up the
auto remove feature which dropped people out of the group if they
did not post or actively reply to the notice. This reduced
membership from 160 to about 30 over a couple of years.

Phase 5.  The Millennium DreamEvent to now.  Dotcom crash.
Mobile computing... millions of online groups and emails
everywhere.  Very quiet here.

Phase 6  ??


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Apr 2001 05:22:34 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      _The Third Reich of Dreams_
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Yes, I am still around.  Recently, I sent the
following message to another mailing list I am on.  It
didn't really start much of a discussion there, so I
thought I might try it here.  It is worth noting that
every mailing list I am on right now is dealing with
silences on the list.  I wonder if there is something
larger going on that has gotten people distracted from
lists.  (Overload?  Collapse of dot.coms?  The Bush
presidency? ... )

------

I am on a mailing list where there has been
considerable discussion about the importance of
degrees.  I have brought the discussion around to
focusing not on the degrees, but on the thinkers who
have been influential in affecting the people on the
list.

One person mentioned Wilhelm Reich.  I picked up his
book _Character Analysis_ and started reading.  In the
preface to the first edition, he commented about
whether writing a tome on psychotherapy even made
sense in a setting where 'every hour of every day
fresh thousands of neuroses are produced by family
education and social conditions.'

Does it make sense to focus on the healing of the
individual or should something be done to stop the
damage that society is causing.  I flipped to the end
of the preface and found it dated Berlin, 1933.

A friend of mine is going through a job transition and
I have been spending time helping him make the
transition.  He has now been offered and accepted a
great new job which will allow him a chance to
make some other great changes in his life.

In appreciation, he has given me a copy of _The Third
Reich of Dreams_ by Charlotte Beradt.  I feel
incredibly honored to have been given such a book.

As part of our family time, we are reading _The Little
Country_ by Charles de Lint.  A key aspect of this
story is about a book, the reading of which unleashes
great magic that can be used for good or evil.  We
have just finished a section where an old mystic is
dying and reveals some of the nature of the book to
the heroines.  His concern is to leave the word a
better place.

I will now go sit by the waterfall and read for the
afternoon.

Aldon


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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Apr 2001 10:36:53 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Fw:      [P] _The Third Reich of Dreams_
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Hi Aldon, Walter, Janell, Linda, all,

> every mailing list I am on right now is dealing with
> silences on the list.  I wonder if there is something
> larger going on that has gotten people distracted from
> lists.  (Overload?  Collapse of dot.coms?  The Bush
> presidency? ... )

N: Most of mine have just 'slowed'.  I've been wondering if it wasn't just
Spring with the outdoors calling.
    Of course our u.s. media is much preoccupied with 24 Americans being
held in China...  And this administration's 'weird' handling of the initial
situation.

> In appreciation, he has given me a copy of _The Third
> Reich of Dreams_ by Charlotte Beradt.  I feel
> incredibly honored to have been given such a book.

N: This tweeked my curiousity enough to make a trip 'up the Amazon' but
found no trace.  Is it out of print?  The title is a little ambiguous.
Might you give us an idea of the book's 'direction'?
>
> I will now go sit by the waterfall and read for the
> afternoon.

N: Sounds wonderful.  What a great place to write haiku.

    Best to all,
        Nancy
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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>
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>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:18:50 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: _The Third Reich of Dreams_
In-Reply-To:  <20010409122234.72513.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Aldon, all,

Aldon, if you wish to would you express whether there was a synchronicity
for you 'vibing' between "I flipped to the end of the preface and found it
dated Berlin, 1933" and "he has given me a copy of _The Third Reich of
Dreams_"?

If there was and you feel like saying anything more about it, I'd be
interested to learn more.

***

By the way, the differentials between individual and group seems to be a
motif right now in several fields of the cyberspace I'm a participant in.

regards to all,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:54:21 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      individual and group motif
In-Reply-To:  <p04330105b6f8469fb55f@[207.54.160.173]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>

  Re: [P] _The Third Reich of Dreams_
  Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:18:50 -0500


> By the way, the differentials between individual and group seems to be a
> motif right now in several fields of the cyberspace I'm a participant in.

Cyberspace is so vast & diverse, yet we can pick up on its
evolution... its history.  The technology and the economics and
the maturation of the ideas all move together to give us a sense
of something... I have a sense of a new phase ... Aldon & Nancy
mentions a slow down, Stephen, you notice a "differentials
between individual and group" in several fields of cyberspace.

I have a sense of feeing history, not just reading about it.  I
read about dot com crashes in the newspaper... here i feel an
impact of it as I surf.  But it is not just the dot.bomb Is it
the millennium again... collective unconscious life...


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:39:01 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: _The Third Reich of Dreams_
In-Reply-To:  <p04330105b6f8469fb55f@[207.54.160.173]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Stephen,

   You are right.  There was a keen sense of
synchronicity between reading what Wilhelm Reich was
writing about Psychoanalyis in Berlin in 1933 and his
comments about how it fit in the larger global picture
and then being given, quite unexpectedly a copy of
_The Third Reich of Dreams_.  I think that sense of
synchronicity extends to my family reading of _The
Little Country_, and perhaps even further to the
comments about what is going on with lulls in mailing
lists the collapse of dot.coms the U.S. government's
handling of issues.

   Perhaps to circle back the Wilhelm Reich, he speaks
in the introduction about changes in society and how
it takes a while for individuals' psyches to catch up.
 He seems to suggest that the lag is measured in terms
of generations instead of years.  Given the quicker
rates of change that Information Communication
Technology are occuring, I wonder we as a species, are
pausing to catch up with what has gone on.

    I feel like my thoughts are rambling.  I am not
sure where I go with these feelings.  So, I wonder how
this will all resonate with others here.

Aldon

--- Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET> wrote:
> Aldon, all,
>
> Aldon, if you wish to would you express whether
> there was a synchronicity
> for you 'vibing' between "I flipped to the end of
> the preface and found it
> dated Berlin, 1933" and "he has given me a copy of
> _The Third Reich of
> Dreams_"?
>
> If there was and you feel like saying anything more
> about it, I'd be
> interested to learn more.
>
> ***
>
> By the way, the differentials between individual and
> group seems to be a
> motif right now in several fields of the cyberspace
> I'm a participant in.
>
> regards to all,
>
> Stephen
>
>
____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or
> unsubscribe
> here:
> http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>


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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:29:16 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: _The Third Reich of Dreams_
In-Reply-To:  <20010410223901.48885.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

>Aldon and all,

><   Perhaps to circle back the Wilhelm Reich, he speaks
>in the introduction about changes in society and how
>it takes a while for individuals' psyches to catch up.
> He seems to suggest that the lag is measured in terms
>of generations instead of years.  Given the quicker
>rates of change that Information Communication
>Technology are occuring, I wonder we as a species, are
>pausing to catch up with what has gone on.
>
>    I feel like my thoughts are rambling.  I am not
>sure where I go with these feelings.  So, I wonder how
>this will all resonate with others here.
>
>Aldon>

Interesting observation...I've been in a funk basically for a few
months...I attributed it to my last medical siege but your comments
resonated deeply for me...a number of close friends in the morning
Koffee Klutch group haven't been as social lately...I live in the US
in a very non Republican area and what use to be lively and laughing
sharing of the news has all but ceased...the rate of change from the
Clinton admin to the Bush has been astonishing to me...

So far in my contemplation of my response to this is a great sadness
for the earth which then vacillates to outrage at what I perceive as
a lack of compassion not to mention vision

So much for my political outburst

Regards to all,
Judith

>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:25:58 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Cincinati
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  quoted-printable

Dear Judith and Stephan,

    How about giving up the 'scoop' from your viewpoints about the =
unrest 'up there'?

    Love, Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:00:39 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Cincinati
In-Reply-To:  <003c01c0c468$b78d2f60$6d0e1ed0@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Hey Nancy,

 From "here" (Cleveland) it's "down there" (Cincinnati)...been in
Scottsdale Arizona (Over there) so haven't been tuned in as
yet...just the usual stuff in the paper (here) which I assume you are
getting (where ever) :-).

Blessings,
Judith

>Dear Judith and Stephan,
>
>    How about giving up the 'scoop' from your viewpoints about the
>unrest 'up there'?
>
>    Love, Nancy
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:03:22 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Cincinnati/AZ
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hey Judith,
    It's better than a 'scoop' to know you are well enough to have been in
AZ.  Whew.  I'm relieved.  Been wondering.
    Blessings,  Nancy

----- Original Message -----
From: "JB" <judithb@APK.NET>
To: <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [P] Cincinati


> Hey Nancy,
>
>  From "here" (Cleveland) it's "down there" (Cincinnati)...been in
> Scottsdale Arizona (Over there) so haven't been tuned in as
> yet...just the usual stuff in the paper (here) which I assume you are
> getting (where ever) :-).
>
> Blessings,
> Judith
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:08:20 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <reh2dtcgm1f731pmka9278c90d8b4n16t0@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Walter Logeman wrote:

> Phase 5.  The Millennium DreamEvent to now.  Dotcom crash.
> Mobile computing... millions of online groups and emails
> everywhere.  Very quiet here.
>
> Phase 6  ??

All interactive forums evantally move to the web because the interface
is so much more conducive to an stateless interactive experience, and
everyone wants a little linkable egoboo.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=595265

Rob

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:14:38 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.31.0104141103050.10694-100000@lithium.elemental.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Rob

> All interactive forums evantally move to the web because the interface
> is so much more conducive to an stateless interactive experience, and
> everyone wants a little linkable egoboo.

There are a couple of different ideas here?

1.  the web interface as opposed to locally saved emails etc.

2.  public records as opposed to private records - to enhance the
egoboo


On th first score I totally agree, but i think it will take 5 to
10 years - although some of us will do some of that now.  I
assess orgs for their online groups, and they cant do web only
because of not being online all the time, poor bandwith and
sharing computers.  People need to share telephone lines.

On the second score... BOTH.  More public places but also more
private and secure places.

But one thing is for sure... more use of the net!  That in itself
is bigger than the specific technology:

Here is a quote from Business 2.   "The number of US adults with
Internet access grew to 104 million from 88 million during the
second half of 2000."

That is fast!

What is the impact of that, even on this group in the next year
or so?


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:52:54 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  7bit

In a message dated 04/14/2001 5:19:59 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> 1.  the web interface as opposed to locally saved emails etc.
>
>  2.  public records as opposed to private records - to enhance the
>  egoboo
>
And some other stuff...

>
>  What is the impact of that, even on this group in the next year
>  or so?
>

One impact on me is that now I am concerned that I don't have an egoboo.  Do
I wish I had one, and if I did, would it be difficult to enhance?

Sheryl ;)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:19:40 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <2b.1419163b.280e1536@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Sheryl Garner wrote:

> >  What is the impact of that, even on this group in the next year
> >  or so?

> One impact on me is that now I am concerned that I don't have an egoboo.  Do
> I wish I had one, and if I did, would it be difficult to enhance?

This is the Internet.  If you can't find a place to get yourself an
egoboo, you're not trying hard enough.

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:07:00 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.31.0104181619140.23115-100000@lithium.elemental .org>
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To all,

I don't know why I am still here at PSYBER-L.  Does anybody else know why
they are holding so hard to what appears to be basically an empty
space?  Is there a phase 6?

I am considering my reasons for staying here and have come to the
conclusion that I don't have a reason other than memories of what it used
to be and the activity that flowed in here and from here.  I don't see how
this "evolved" or "devolved" space has meaning, current and relative
meaning for me.

I am waiting and don't know what I am waiting for ... I get a sense of
others waiting, especially others who knew this place in the distant past
in cyberspace terms.  I also feel a sense of disappointment and
disillusionment coming from the aura of others still clinging
here.  Perhaps I am all wrong and I speak more about myself than I do about
PSYBER-L.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:04:48 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <5.0.2.1.0.20010418150059.009ed6a0@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
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Date:         Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:39:32 -0500
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Subject:      Re: The idea of a group
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

Walter, all,

At times in the past many participants have responded to the queries, 'Why
are you here? / What are your expectations?'.

I don't know what the most powerful questions are -which could be asked-
about Psyber-L. I do believe those questions may be worth asking!

[edited 4-18-01]

Questions:

*what do we still do?"

So, what would you surmise from the symbols and words in this group? Do you
have the time to continue to work with our group?

One question I would like to ask you Walter is: what is different about the
purpose *for you, and focused in some way on the meeting of your own needs*
of Psyber-L between 1995-96 and now?

So, my own powerful question, (one possibility,) is: What are the ways
Psyber-L might commence rejuvenating itself?

***

Walter, when you addressed this post two days (2/25) after I sent it, among
what you wrote was:

There is a message in there... connection, warmth, community, spirituality,
and endurance over time

[snip] Words in a symbolic place...perhaps unconsciously put there and if
so carrying more of the psyche as a result.

***

To cut to the chase, I agree with Robert. The Psyber-L list has not *ever*
recovered its vitality or discovered the source of renewal since the days
past when this challenge didn't even seem to be pertinent.

What surprises me Walter is how insipid "connection, warmth, community,
spirituality, and endurance" appears to me today in comparison to the
reality here recently. I mean no attack on anybody's goodwill, but, it
seems to me you couldn't even give my questions much attention, and that
enumerating high principles was an unsatisfying (to me,) substitute.

Also, the group continues to respond largely to your level of energy and
input. This is very unusual 'group behavior', but it's at least suggestive
of what I have long felt to be the case, that the group is well below it's
critical creative mass.

This suggests to me -at a minimum- this list needs a new structure/guidance
and refreshed moderation/facilitation. Alternately, maybe it needs to come
to closure and sign off. yeah, Phase 6.

The prospect of its renewal is a challenge the group will have to address;
no reason to pretend it doesn't matter or its mostly up to Walter. imo

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:10:23 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Brook Trout
In-Reply-To:  <20010401131415.C1559@linx.libero.it>
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Hi Brook

Here is the email you sent upon your request to join. I post it
so it will enable others to welcome you too.

Your thseis is *pertinent* to our discussions. I hope you will be
able to add to our group and also gain from it.


Walter

~~~

> hi,
> i'm a psychology student in Italy majoring with a
> thesis on internet group relations
> and on the perception of the graphical interface
> in relation with the group field.
> i'm also interested in the internal groupality and
> the groupal self,
> in the whay these terms have been developed by the
> recent italian authors.
>
> best regards
> brook

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:16:14 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome BWC
In-Reply-To:  <NEBBJFBIOLBBDDDEAIPCKEFPGKAA.bwc.018@transhimalayan.com>
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Hi BWC

Thanks for joining this group.  You say you rarely post - join
the club <grin>.

Perhaps you could post here?  Your interest is right in line with
our approach here - psychology and cyberspace.

Walter

~~~


> Most interesting.  I have a long-standing interest in "philosophical
> psychology," in various aspects of 'Eastern' psychology, which I have
> studied in detail.  I am a retired prof. of Philosophy and Eastern Religions
> w/ a 6 year interest in/study of 'cyberspace.'  This list is right up my
> alley, so to speak.  I look forward to reading the posts.  Although a member
> of a number of such lists, I rarely post.  More 'informational' interest.
>
>
>
>
>      "As men approach Me, so, too, do I
>       approach them."
>
>                         Krishna

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:32:36 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome BWC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hello Dr. BWC,
    Welcome 'aboard'!
    I found this quote (below) to be interesting.  Might one call it sort of
the inverse of the Golden Rule?
        Best, Nancy

> >      "As men approach Me, so, too, do I
> >       approach them."
> >
> >                         Krishna

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:39:09 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Brook Trout
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Brook Trout,
    What a great aka.   I shall think of it imaginatively when summer comes
to the South (USA).
    Don't know that I can contribute much to you 'thesis' as the terms (as
they appear on Netdym) bewilder me. Do you find anything in Carl Jung's work
that contribute?
    But welcome!

    Best, Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:48:49 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Waiting for Phase 6

A cyberspace.  A mailing list.

Evening.

Robert, sitting at a computer, is trying to write a message.  He types with
both hands, panting.  He gives up, exhausted, tries again.
As before.
Enter Stephen.
Robert: (giving up again). Nothing to be done.
Stephen: (advancing with short stiff strides, legs wide apart)
I'm beginning to come round to that opinion.  All
my life I've tried to put it from me, saying, Stephen, be reasonable, you
haven't yet tried everything.  And I resume the struggle.  (He broods,
musing on the struggle.  Turning to Robert.) So there you are again.
Robert: Am I?
Stephen: I'm glad to see you back.  I thought you were gone for ever.
Robert: Me too.
Stephen: Together again at last!  We'll have to celebrate this.  But how?
(He reflects.)  Get up till I embrace you.
Robert: (irritably).  Not now, not now.
Stephen: (hurt, coldly). May one inquire where His Highness spent the night?
Robert: In a ditch.

...

Robert: Nothing to be done. (He proffers the remains of an egoboo to
Stephen).  Like to finish it?
A terrible cry, close at hand.  Robert drops the egoboo.  They remain
motionless, then together make a sudden rush towards the wings.  Robert
stops halfway, runs back, picks up the egoboo, stuffs it in his pocket,
runs to rejoin Stephen who is waiting for him, stops again, runs back,
picks up his boot, runs to rejoin Stephen.  Huddled together, shoulders
hunched, cringing away from the menance, they wait.
Enter Brook Trout and BWC.  Brook Trout drives BWC by means of a rope
passed round his neck, so that BWC is the first to enter, followed by the
rope which is long enough to let him reach the middle of the stage before
Brook Trout appears.  BWC carries a heavy bag, a folding stool, a picnic
basket and a greatcoat, Brook Trout a whip.
Brook Trout: (off)  On! ...

-----------------------------------
My apologies to Robert, Stephen, Brook Trout, BWC, Vladimir, Estragon,
Pozzo, Lucky and most of all Samuel.


Aldon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:06:30 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
MIME-Version: 1.0
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All,

When I read Robert's email last night, I felt a sense of sadness and of
moving on, times gone by, memories of a place that existed in cyberspace that
was not here but very definitely present in my mind and life.  Psyber-L is a
sort of structure in my mind's eye, of souls more than anything, I suppose,
to meet others on a level that I have rarely -- no never -- seen anywhere
else on the Internet.

But while the structure of Psyber-L has remained for me, it has been one
without much communication for several months.  Stephen's email today jolted
me though, to think -- is Psyber-L actually dying?  Could it actually just
blow away into nothingness?

For me it can't and I won't allow it to.  As Phase 5 ends, if it is ending,
my sense of the Internet, people's (in general) approach to it, is shallow,
greedy, facile, arrogant, and soul numbing.  This isn't unique to cyberspace,
because it's in the media, the environment, and social interaction, too.

Psyber-L remains one of the very few places that I have any opportunity to
experience something deeper that a quick answer, a pop up screen, or the
other bunch of shit that's constantly shoved at me in cyberspace.

I'm open to movement to different places in Psyber-L.  Where do we want to
go, what do we want to do?  But it seems a little premature to suggest that
the depth that has occured in cyberspace through Psyber-L has ended that we
can just shut the door and all go home.

I am home.

Namaste'
Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:06:30 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Welcome BWC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Welcome BWC and Fish,

You have landed in the shallow end of the Psyber-L pond and there haven't
been many waves here lately.  To get to any depth, you'll have to do a little
swimming.

But it might be worth the effort.

Namaste'
Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:22:27 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 04/18/2001 3:08:16 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA writes:

> Perhaps I am all wrong and I speak more about myself than I do about
>  PSYBER-L.

You know what Robert?  I started thinking about this post of yours and I
started to feel pissed off.  Where have you been these last months?  What do
YOU want from Psyber-L now?

Aldon's "waiting for phase 6" post a minute ago reminded me of a post of
yours from years ago.  I haven't seen anything from you even remotely that
engaging for a long time.

So yeah, speak for yourself.  If nothing else, just speak.

Namaste'
Sheryl

PS.  Aldon, I would like to care for the egoboo for awhile since I can't seem
to find one.  I won't try to enhance it or anything.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:01:39 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Welcome BWC
In-Reply-To:  <aa.142f9d4d.28109136@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sheryl

> To get to any depth, you'll have to do a little
> swimming.

Nice!


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:09:00 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <e8.136f5886.281094f3@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Sheryl

>You know what Robert?  I started thinking about this post of yours and I
>started to feel pissed off.  Where have you been these last months?  What
>do YOU want from Psyber-L now?

Where have I been?  I been to London to visit the queen.  I am glad that my
poor words have elicited some kind of response indicating that there is a
bit of breath still flowing here.  Sheryl, I have been here listening to
the silence along with everyone else though that number is quite small at
the moment.  I have been here a long time and have seen silences and rowdy
conversation come and go.

What Stephen has talked about is true.  There are too few of us here to
keep the juices of dialogue going, especially when the head honcho decides
to guard a silence as well while he "engage" fully in his outer life.  And
thinking about that, perhaps that is what is critical, realising that there
is an outer life that wants full investment.

Cyberspace isn't inner space.  We can dance around and play on the cyber
stage, but in the end, it doesn't lead us significantly inwards.  We can
speak to ourselves using this medium as one would use music or art or
poetry or prose, and in so speaking to ourselves, facilitate the inward
dialogue.  In a discussion group, this dynamic often spurs others to
wonder/wander through their own psyche with echoes and reverberations that
ignite still others to muse aloud here in cyberspace.  Cyberspace doesn't
have a psyche of its own, neither does psyberspace.  If anything, this
place is a place for the feeding of the collective unconscious and the
casting of projections.

Why are you so angry, so pissed off with me?  What does this emotion say
about you?  Rather than cast outward, search inward my favorite pumpkin-soul.

>Aldon's "waiting for phase 6" post a minute ago reminded me of a post of
>yours from years ago.  I haven't seen anything from you even remotely that
>engaging for a long time.

I know.  Who would I have been speaking to had I disturbed the
silence?  Who is listening?  Why are they listening?  What are they
listening for here?  Is this deep enough, engaging enough?  I am not
baiting you or any other negative construct of relation/communication that
you may think of here, I am probing.  Perhaps all of my questions are
rhetorical since I am really in conversation with myself in a public forum
much as the philosopher kings of ancient Greece engaged in their "dialogs."

>So yeah, speak for yourself.  If nothing else, just speak.

It is all that I ever speak ... for my "self."  And so I have spoken.

tansi, Robert the Eagle (l'aigle)

(Tansi is Cree, part of my heritage as well as Ojibway and Mohawk and
French and Celtic)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:32:00 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <p04330100b70410ac6041@[207.54.160.114]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Stephen

>At times in the past many participants have responded to the queries, 'Why
>are you here? / What are your expectations?'.

My answer, my friend, is not one that I am aware of at the present.  I
don't know why I am here anymore.  Where I have been in PSYBER-L is not a
place that exists anymore, nor do I expect that such a place could still
exist as change is the only constant.

>I don't know what the most powerful questions are -which could be asked-
>about Psyber-L. I do believe those questions may be worth asking!

Perhaps the first question is "What is PSYBER-L?" a question that might not
have the answer that any of us is truly aware of, especially the architect
of this space.

>Questions:
>
>*what do we still do?"

Listen for the most part ... I think.  I am approaching this positively by
saying this.  It would be too easy to dismiss what is happening here as
"nothing."

>So, what would you surmise from the symbols and words in this group? Do
>you have the time to continue to work with our group?

Time is irrelevant.  Where there is a will, there will always be time, time
stolen from other aspects of life for which we have less will for
presence.  Do I desire to be "present" here?  I don't know as I don't know
what "here" is any more.

>So, my own powerful question, (one possibility,) is: What are the ways
>Psyber-L might commence rejuvenating itself?

Stephen, I turn this question back to you.  How might you be rejuvenated by
being here in PSYBER-L?  This place is a collection of souls, not a place
unto itself from what I have learned about cyberspace.

>To cut to the chase, I agree with Robert. The Psyber-L list has not *ever*
>recovered its vitality or discovered the source of renewal since the days
>past when this challenge didn't even seem to be pertinent.

This place can't be "that" place of the past.  It can only mirror who we
are in the present in terms of inter-relationships using this medium.

>What surprises me Walter is how insipid "connection, warmth, community,
>spirituality, and endurance" appears to me today in comparison to the
>reality here recently. I mean no attack on anybody's goodwill, but, it
>seems to me you couldn't even give my questions much attention, and that
>enumerating high principles was an unsatisfying (to me,) substitute.

I agree with this statement, this position, Stephen.  We need the "mess"
and not the lifeless air of frozen mountain peaks of high principles.  We
need to get down and dirty if we are to discover life here.

>This suggests to me -at a minimum- this list needs a new
>structure/guidance and refreshed moderation/facilitation. Alternately,
>maybe it needs to come to closure and sign off. yeah, Phase 6.

A thought, but only that.  Time and attention will tell.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:55:47 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <3f.13dfcc8d.28109136@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Sheryl,

>When I read Robert's email last night, I felt a sense of sadness and of
>moving on, times gone by, memories of a place that existed in cyberspace
>that was not here but very definitely present in my mind and life.

Sheryl, this is what I have been feeling, so I was able to capture that
feeling somehow and communicate it.  It isn't surprising to me that you
would "catch" the unspoken "feeling" behind the words I used.  Sadness and
moving on.  Nostalgia for a place that didn't really exist, but for a sense
of relation that did exist between people who shared a medium of dialogue.

>Stephen's email today jolted me though, to think -- is Psyber-L actually
>dying?  Could it actually just blow away into nothingness?

Psyber-L isn't dying.  Psyber-L isn't a "thing" in itself.  Are the
relationships based on CMC fading is more the question to be asked.  Who do
you want to speak to here?  Why?  About what?  Why aren't these
conversations that are desired happening?  Who must speak first.  I don't
believe that this is Walter's responsibility.  It belongs to each of us.

And some of us such as myself have been nourishing silence in a way, a
silence in cyberspace due to being more present in a face-to-face world,
something that is hard work for an INFP, with strong tendencies to "I' and "N"

>As Phase 5 ends, if it is ending, my sense of the Internet, people's (in
>general) approach to it, is shallow, greedy, facile, arrogant, and soul
>numbing.  This isn't unique to cyberspace, because it's in the media, the
>environment, and social interaction, too.

Cyberspace can't be anything that the real world isn't.  When one speaks of
the collective, one must confront the collective unconsciousness which
carries so much dark stuff with hidden treasures buried in that collective
slime.

>Psyber-L remains one of the very few places that I have any opportunity to
>experience something deeper that a quick answer, a pop up screen, or the
>other bunch of shit that's constantly shoved at me in cyberspace.

You mean that the people here have approached each other in a manner that
is different that experienced on other discussion lists?  Remember, Sheryl,
it's the people, not the container that differentiates one list from another.

>I'm open to movement to different places in Psyber-L.  Where do we want to
>go, what do we want to do?

What are your answers to these two questions?

>But it seems a little premature to suggest that the depth that has occured
>in cyberspace through Psyber-L has ended that we can just shut the door
>and all go home.

There is no going home, as you pointed out, because there is no place to go
to as we will still be where we are after the proverbial closing of doors
when the company have all left.  It isn't about Psyber-L, it is about the
people who have congregated in a place in their heads connected by
invisible lines that define the Internet.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Apr 2001 22:03:28 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <3f.13dfcc8d.28109136@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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All,

I've been thinking about what has not been going on for quite
sometime...what has happened? is the question I kept holding...and
for me this surfaced...given in truth as best as I can discern at the
moment

It seems to me, Phase 5 as you defined it Walter, really ended for me
when you posted the message about what has been implemented around
your work...at the moment of reading your post, I felt as if Psyber-L
had completed its mission from your standpoint, the air went out of
the balloon...I had felt a specific displacing of Walter's energy
from this space and his post

Let me explain what my experience of Walter's mission has
been...whatever the stated mission of Psyber-L was it was my feeling
that this space was a laboratory which Walter created beyond
exploring the psyche in cyberspace to how he wanted to harness the
internet around his right livelihood...(there was experimentation
with dream events, vivid exchanges around what Walter's role was as
we evolved)...I accepted this and willingly committed to being
here...out of that commitment came the deep connection I feel for
those of us here...

I came during to this space sometime between Phase 3 and 4 I
think...things were lively, intense and Walter was continually
grappling with leadership issues as were we...I always thot
discussions around what we were doing here perplexing because from my
perspective what we were doing here was participating in Walter's
intention to create a way to earn a living in cyberspace (I belive I
remember early on his saying he wanted to create a space out of
Psyber-L which could be charged for)...

My personal conclusion is that at this point Walter's energy is
definitely elsewhere and whether we accepted this or not his energy
has been the primary impetus for this creation that's called
Psyber-l...

I agree with Sheryl that I am not ready to let it go of "here"...I
think we need to look at ways to stay that is not centered around
Walter (and Walter you know I don't mean this in any negative
way)...for an extended time many of us were committed to being here...

I think the issue is about commitment...Walter was totally committed
to being here and many of us signed up to participate

I'll digress...recently the 35 year old food coop, having fallen on
tough times with chains moving in with organic food with slick
marketing and beautiful stores...a coop consultant was hired and he
called a meeting of members thinking about 300 would show up...800
people showed up and pledged to spend at least 20 a week...the energy
created is palpable...seems that a rededication was needed to
energize everyone

It seems to me that in order to make this space interesting and
vibrant a collective meaning needs to be redefined...in the spirit of
the Web...I am reading Rosebeth Kantor's new book E-volve! and maybe
Evoling is a point of departure

I'm still here interested to see what can be created if anything
Blessings,
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:03:37 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
MIME-Version: 1.0
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  Hello all:

Goodness, but things have picked up lately.

 I wonder why????

   Janell

    Busy in the rw, but reading and enjoying!!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:53:11 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Judith, All...

I think, Judith, you are right that a primary issue for Phase 6 is
committment, although equally strong at this point seems to be purpose.  How
do we commit when we don't know what for?

I hope that all the *work* done on Psyber-L is not done, because that would
mean an end of something significant.  And, I've found that when I become
more a part of the process, the experience is far more meaningful for me.

I have been thinking that Phase 5, as Walter first described it, to me has
been a scattering of directions, of cyberspace, of social influences, and of
my life in general... and that this has contributed to my difficulty in
engaging with any meaning in Psyber-L.  Even as I'm writing this, I feel this
overwhelming sense of lethargy in trying to pull something cohesive together,
to move toward understanding of what my vision of what Psyber-L is or what I
want it to become.

Walter, it would be good to hear some of your thoughts.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:53:10 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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L'aigle, Robert...

I am happy that you have been able to stir a little life into Psyber-L,
movement in the big empty structure it has been, off and on.  My frame is of
a big house, follow with me please, with 30 or so current residents, who are
sometimes here speaking, mostly silent lately, many off into their "real
life" activities.  No one has seemed to mind this, or expressed annoyance
and/or hurt (other than toward Papa Walter) that we have moved in different
directions, in "real life" or in cyberspace or both.

Off and on, one resident, brother Stephen, has broken the silences and asked
us, what are we about, we residents of this mostly silent house?  Do we want
to move the house somewhere else?  A few of us, feebly, I think, have
answered, or, in our own way also asked the question.  But, the answers have
been short, unengaging, and the silence resumes.

After a period of this silence, interspersed with short interchanges, out of
his room pops Robert, who has been virtually silent here for (quite long) a
time!  He shouts, "I am sad that this isn't the same place anymore!
Everything that can be done with depth in this house is done!  It's all
memories, and what's left is boring.  There is nothing more to be done here!
I don't know why I'm here, and  I might as well go now."

Robert, your burst into the silent house served to stir some activity and
noise, and maybe that's what you intended.  But the burst seemed... to me...
a little hypocritical in light of your recent committment to Psyber-L.


Namaste l'aigle!!!
Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:51:35 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      imagining a quest
In-Reply-To:  <e1.137bea2e.2811eda6@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

all,

>Robert, your burst into the silent house served to stir some activity and
>noise, and maybe that's what you intended.  But the burst seemed... to
>me...
>a little hypocritical in light of your recent committment to Psyber-L.

Appearance and actuality; for what it's worth, here is a list of posters
since April 3, 2000, the last date I emptied my Psyber-L mailbox. (This
does not include the CoC mailbox.)

Aldon
Anita
Bent
Charles
Greg
Janell
Judith
Linda
Miles
Nancy
Rob
Robert
Sarina
Sheryl
Simon
Stephen
Walter
Wendell


1 year, 428 posts, 18 people; so: average of 24 posts per person; Robert
has posted 25 times.

***

My own feeling is that this challenge of moving out of this stage has
almost nothing to do with the measure of commitment. It doesn't strike me
as a commitment problem.

Rather it strikes me as a lassitude fed by trepidation. This is my own
personal take. Part of this trepidation I think does have to do with taking
the journey from the Psyber-L experiment to the next
place/chapter/'experiment'. Whether by intention or more mysterious
workings, it seems to me the 'group' has slowly 'disinvested' in the
mission here.

When this kind of divestment happens in the mundane world of enterprise and
organizations, i.e. task-oriented groups writ large, without a replacement
'mission', or locus of focus, (or whatever terms 'colorize' the picture for
you,) the transitional stage may be a filled with lowering of energy. This
is so especially if there is no conflict or differential significant,
('numinous', real, necessary, etc.) enough to 'heat' things up.

In other words, Psyber-L -to my way of feeling its unfolding- has been
cooling down for a long long time.

***

Walter's kind response weeks ago "connection, warmth, community,
spirituality, and endurance over time" sticks with me because he states
some of the principles we are 'mysteriously fused' with here, which is
another way of characterizing the very aspects which have allowed us to
comfortably and unconsciously cool down together and to either miss or not
generate the symbolic liveliness (alternately: a tension of opposites,)
which might point the group in the direction of the extraordinary. (Walter
on 2/23: "Words in a symbolic place...perhaps unconsciously put there and
if so carrying more of the psyche as a result.")

Again, I suggest to everybody: take a look at the Circle of Connections
game board now and as a test of your own creative response to the *current*
situation (thanks for the reminder, Robert!) give the group some feedback
about what resonates to today.

[ http://www.psybernet.co.nz/circle/  L: psyber p: circle ]

***

Judith, during the CoC game, wrote:

"in Psyber-L there are always comings
and going...I can feel the absence of various peoples' energies when
they are "away"...the circle of connection is continually broken
energetically creating a lack of center if you will...was it you
Robert who commented that the game board circle didn't have anything
in the center? energetically we are always in a state of
disconnectedness seeking connectedness, continuous energetic
reorganization...I have experienced this most dramatically with the
two dream events when people move into another space and form
connection leaving those of us who remain with more "space" between
us...there is always silence when the dream events end and people
"return"...it takes time to energetically create the connection..."

It's almost like a dream in need of interpretation. I imagine a great Quest
to bring something huge enough and novel enough to energize the connections
between the center and everybody here today. Particularly to honor the
'hugeness' of this group, something commensurate might/must be the 'onject'
of such a quest.

***

If you close your eyes and imagine *psyber-L on a quest* what image comes
into your mind? Where are we? What scenery do you see? What is the smell?
What music is

playing?

yes...take some time and answer wholeheartedly.

***

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:49:08 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sheryl, all

> Walter, it would be good to hear some of your thoughts.

I think purpose is the key and i don't think it has changed.

"The purpose of Psyber-L is to learn experientially about the
psyche in cyberspace." is written large on the groups home page:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/psyber-l.htm

This seems an eternally worthwhile endeavour to me.  One i will
not tire of.  I think the current description of the group is
valid.

My other work *is* an exploration of the psyche in cyberspace and
to talk about it as that is important to me. It is not commitment
but overcommitment that has stopped me.  Oh, and also that when I
have posted about my other work the GroupSense enterprises and so
on it has not taken off as engaging discussion.  No blame there
just how it has felt.

It might seem that there is a contradiction here, that on the one
hand it is an 'experiential' group and on the other that I think
we talk of our cyber - and all other - experiences outside this
group - bit it is not.

For the psyche it is all content.  Mere content, stuff for the
archetypes to manifest through and reveal themselves.

~~~

I had a talk with a colleague the other day - psychotherapy.
Should we ask our clients to come prepared for the sessions?  My
though was ... however they are as they arrive ... that is
prepared.  If they artificially make some commitment to bring so
called "psychological" material, that is a distortion of the
psyche.

However they do need to turn up!  The container does require
commitment to it; the fee, the hour.

~~~

I dont think we ever lost commitment to the container here.

Robert, if you had, you would just have unsubbed - but here you
are telling us your experience.

~~~

I want out of this "hub"... but I take the job of "chief honcho"
in the sense of keeping the space open in its broadest sense
seriously.  Still grappling with leadership - however i think we
all are! (as you said Judith)

~~~

I see synchronicity enveloping us in here as if the psyche has
finally awoken again here...

Psyche in the myth... does she awaken?

The one that strikes me right now is a peculiar refrain related
to commitment, expressed in the quote from BMC who was not in the
group at the time of writing...

>      "As men approach Me, so, too, do I
>       approach them."
>
>                         Krishna

A reversal of the Golden rule? as Nancy put it, but also an
expression of the biblical notion of seek and ye shall find.

Great to be here!

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:50:14 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Waiting for Phase 6
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Aldon, All,

I found your post funny. MORE DRAMA  that is what I could do with
- of the theatrical, of the psychological kind - not flames or
tragedy but creativity.

Synchronistically i posted a godot excerpt to someone the other
day, unrelated for this group.  (appended below).

I dont feel pissed off that there is some pressure on me to be
here more fully in this group, I am the... owner moderator host.
There is a problem though - I am still "here" more than most -
the old "hub" phenomena persists.

There is the long standing problem that if I fade* the group
fades... so I am caught in a bind...

I think I have a part in it.  I think spending many thousands of
hours in what is essentially my profession and not being paid is
problematic... my reward has been great learning, and I am now
applying that in other areas.  But I see no reason for the demise
of this group.  I still want to be here though I also feel the
despair with it that Steven and Robert have been coming from.

Perhaps my engagement and involvement is something that is
typical of earlier phases of the net. Discussion like information
wants to be free.

In my own way i have had a psyber-dot-com-crash.

Right at this moment tech stocks are rising!  A little.

*Note It fades BUT DOES NOT DIE!  The 70 or so posts we have had
this year are our expression of creativity and depth or struggle
to find a way... all of them - as Sheryl just said they are not
engaging enough to keep us going for long.

[Ah well... I love seeing the life here... and now off to a bath
& to see kate who I have not seen for days! ]

Actually it is now the next morning. The post did not go for some
reason and i have edited a little.



Walter


~~~


FROM GODOT


VLADIMIR:
Well? What do we do?
ESTRAGON:
Don't let's do anything. It's safer.
VLADIMIR:
Let's wait and see what he says.
ESTRAGON:
Who?
VLADIMIR:
Godot.
ESTRAGON:
Good idea.
VLADIMIR:
Let's wait till we know exactly how we stand.
ESTRAGON:
On the other hand it might be better to strike the iron before it
freezes.
VLADIMIR:
I'm curious to hear what he has to offer. Then we'll take it or
leave it.
ESTRAGON:
What exactly did we ask him for?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:53:17 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Mail problem
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

I just re posted two posts i sent this morning... 6 or 8 hours
ago.  I dont know why they had not arrived.  They were sitting in
my sent box ??? They will probably come twice now.

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:31:44 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      eye for eye and cheek to cheek?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  quoted-printable

Walter, friends:

About that quote from the Bhagavad Gita:

>      "As men approach Me, so, too, do I
>       approach them."
>
>                         Krishna

What interets me here is that Krishna appears to be saying he waits for =
humans to initiate contact, and then mirrors whatever styles or kinds or =
levels of contact they initiate back in their direction -- gracious with =
those who approach him graciously, but by no means gracious with those =
who oppose him.  What I'm getting out of the quote is classical =
tit-for-tat.  And that's fascinating, both because I tend to expect =
avatars, incarnations, buddhas and persons of hgh spiritual stature to =
turn the other cheek, forgive, do good to those that persecute them, etc =
-- perhaps a specifically Christian approach that I'm projecting where =
it doesn't belong -- and also because of something I've been thinking =
about recently in quite a different context -- the work of Robert =
Axelrod at the University of Michigan. =20

Axelrod has two books, written about ten years apart, entitled "The =
Evolution of Cooperation" and "The Complexity of Cooperation" =
respectively.  In "The Evolution of Cooperation" he took up the =
mathematical game called Prisoner's Dilemma, and suggested that while =
when it is played just once, it favors those who chose "defection" -- =
the selfish manner of play -- over "cooperation" -- the unselfish =
choice, the situation changes when it is played repeatedly by the same =
people.  In these "iterative" playings of the game, it turns out that a =
"tit-for-tat" strategy, always "defecting" or "cooperating" in  such a =
way as to reward or punish the other player's last move by repeating it =
back, is very successful.  In "The Complexity of Cooperation" he takes =
his ideas further, exploring the emergence of complex behaviors from =
simple rulsets by means of "agent based models". =20

One way of looking at what Axelrod is doing here is to see him as =
demonstrating on a rigorous logical basis that there is room in complex =
systems (such as the one we inhabit as humans) for altruism as a =
successful survival strategy.  If that's right -- and I'm probably both =
simplifying Axelrod's point and reading my own interests into it -- then =
he's also showing in an irrefutable (yet non-dogmatic) manner, a =
rationale for generosity in living systems.  Put that another way, less =
accurately perhaps and more provocatively, he's demonstrating, proving, =
the wisdom of the great religious teachers. =20

Except that if he's proving anything, he's proving tit-for-tat rather =
than turn-the-other-cheek.

Which is why, again, I find Krishna's observation, as quoted here, so =
intriguing. =20

Warm regards,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
Rheingold Associates
http://www.rheingold.com/associates

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:53:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      your table is ready
In-Reply-To:  <ga42et4uk78nh8djg6vfjc3g7i31jps772@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter writes,

>I think I have a part in it.

Walter, I'm not despairing. Really we're all bringing to Psyber-L right now
a lot of different perspectives about what is happening and could happen.
Of course you 'have a part in it', but when you write, "I dont feel pissed
off" I'm thinking 'why does he say this?'.

And then you immediately follow up with "I am the... owner moderator host."
and I think, "He wants it both ways!"

(It's like a master chef who has fashioned a wonderful menu and then
doesn't spend enough time in the kitchen to turn out the dishes. Now, left
behind, there is some prospect of making a new menu so that new chefs may
turn out dishes.)

***

>There is the long standing problem that if I fade* the group
>fades... so I am caught in a bind...

(Coming from a therapist)...and the bind the group itself is in, is of its
own making. What do you say about that? About the psychological problem?
What insight do you have about its making and its solution? You're in the
group too.

When you write: "For the psyche it is all content. Mere content, stuff for
the archetypes to manifest through and reveal themselves." I think to
myself (1) cop out, (2) clueless about the archetypes and their process;
unless you just don't want to deal with the moral implications of the
(your) psyche's own imperatives...imperatives which may well be wishing for
you to be a lot less "over-committed". (Walter, my take for what it's
worth.)

A simpler way to put it would be: *walking the talk*.

***

(I sense your reserve but I wonder what would 'piss' you off, have you feel
guilty, rend your reserve.)

Food for thought, hopefully.

one chef to another,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:04:04 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <5942etk01saufkqam98rdq7ts3km052qoj@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Walter,

>I dont think we ever lost commitment to the container here.
>
>Robert, if you had, you would just have unsubbed - but here you
>are telling us your experience.

If you read my recent e-mails carefully, I haven't spoken about death or
leaving; I spoke about what "was" that "isn't" anymore.  I would like a
response that is more in the vein of active listening so that there is less
chance of having missed messages.  The whole purpose of "dialogue" is to
interact and not just react.

>I see synchronicity enveloping us in here as if the psyche has
>finally awoken again here...

My psyche has been always alert waiting and listening.  The container
doesn't have a separate psyche, Walter.  The container is just that a
container.  This container has the unique history of offering temenos for a
few for a short while.  But that had more to do with the dance of
participating souls than it did with anything else.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:07:53 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: eye for eye and cheek to cheek?
In-Reply-To:  <001b01c0ca0b$36e67da0$b328b3d1@3638>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Hello Charles,

Good to hear from you.  Thank you for the note on Krishna.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Apr 2001 22:53:59 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  7bit

Robert, all...

I especially wanted to respond to you more fully yesterday, Robert, but I
found myself in the drained mode that seems to take over (and has been for
quite awhile) when I post to Psyber-L... unless it is a very short post I'm
writing.  But I'll write more about that later.

The attention you paid to my pissed-off-at-you-post in your response was
appreciated and let me know, unless I'm off base, that your expression of
sadness at the current state here was what it was... sadness.

I do want to respond just a little though to questions you asked...

In a message dated 04/19/2001 4:09:20 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA writes:

> Cyberspace isn't inner space.  We can dance around and play on the cyber
>  stage, but in the end, it doesn't lead us significantly inwards.  We can
>  speak to ourselves using this medium as one would use music or art or
>  poetry or prose, and in so speaking to ourselves, facilitate the inward
>  dialogue.  In a discussion group, this dynamic often spurs others to
>  wonder/wander through their own psyche with echoes and reverberations that
>  ignite still others to muse aloud here in cyberspace.  Cyberspace doesn't
>  have a psyche of its own, neither does psyberspace.  If anything, this
>  place is a place for the feeding of the collective unconscious and the
>  casting of projections.

I think it is more than what you have described here, but I don't believe I'm
as jungian oriented as you.  Couldn't this place, Psyber-L also be thought of
as a place where elements from the collective unconscious are brought to
consciousness?  To bring out, and hold, and explore, and expand our knowing?

I don't know if I agree that Cyberspace is not innerspace, either... or at
least it has seemed, at times, that it has some very permeable boundaries
between inner/outer.  I believe I have experienced that here in Psyber-L, and
maybe a few other places... but not many, anymore.  Maybe that is the part of
me that fights so hard to hold on to this *space*, and to believe that it not
only can and will continue (no matter what direction it goes) but that there
is much much more to experience in this place.

>  Why are you so angry, so pissed off with me?  What does this emotion say
>  about you?  Rather than cast outward, search inward my favorite
pumpkin-soul.

Robert, I am not angry now, but maybe my pissed-off-response also served to
stimulate a little more energy in Psyber-L... as did your first expression of
sadness the other day.  May whatever energy we generate expand :)

Hopefully,
Sheryl le potiron

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:17:56 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Thinking about cyberspace/psyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <46.13dbf388.2813a1c7@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Sheryl,

>The attention you paid to my pissed-off-at-you-post in your response was
>appreciated and let me know, unless I'm off base, that your expression of
>sadness at the current state here was what it was... sadness.

You are correct about that assessment, Sheryl.

>I do want to respond just a little though to questions you asked...

Fair enough.  You question about my understanding of cyberspace as being a
medium rather than a place with a psyche of its own.

>I think it is more than what you have described here, but I don't believe
>I'm as jungian oriented as you.  Couldn't this place, Psyber-L also be
>thought of as a place where elements from the collective unconscious are
>brought to consciousness?

Only individuals can arrive at consciousness, Sheryl.  The collective will
always be unconscious as a collective.  The process of coming into
consciousness is called individuation ... focus is on the individual.  When
the focus in on the group, then the individual is not becoming conscious of
"self."  Remember that "psyche" is another term for "soul."  Yes, PSYBER-L
is more than what I have described.  All I was doing in my feeble attempt
to describe is to point to what I sense (intuit) is the nature of psyber-l.

>I don't know if I agree that Cyberspace is not innerspace, either...

I think that cyberspace allows some of us to enter into our own innerspaces
with more ease just like wearing a mask allows some of us to enter into
outerspaces with more personal ease.  I do realise, of course, that I am
speaking from a "personal" way of knowing rather than from a position of
"Truth."

I am looking forward to more thinking out loud from you and our other
members of this very small community.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Apr 2001 04:21:32 -0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         linda oulton <flamingleaf@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>This place is a collection of souls, not a place unto itself


I had begun to think it isn't about souls but indeed about how we fill or do
not fill "the void". about "The emptyness". the Buddhist concept of no
"self". I thought the silence here the beginning of awareness not of what is
but of what isn't. Not of what we are but what we aren't.
Now that we have all been somebodys maybe its time to be no bodies?

but then maybe it is just that frustration of how to connect? the medium
here is of interest...it exists/ but it doesn't exist. how to engage? how to
disengage? after all, how do we connect/disconnect shadows?

anyhow.  thats my wisdom for tonight. Linda,


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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:53:04 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <70mhdto6r2s7s1v26es07jsldkpdgs0c08@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Well, the web isn't the best interface in the world, but it seems to be
robust enough for the majority of weblogs out there these days.

I think privacy will continue to dimish on the web in general.  Digital
data is too easy to copy exactly and correlate easily.

This group will either fade out into something else or continue for the
next 12 months in the manner that it has in the last three.

But that's just my opinion.

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

On Sun, 15 Apr 2001, Walter Logeman wrote:

> Rob
>
> > All interactive forums evantally move to the web because the interface
> > is so much more conducive to an stateless interactive experience, and
> > everyone wants a little linkable egoboo.
>
> There are a couple of different ideas here?
>
> 1.  the web interface as opposed to locally saved emails etc.
>
> 2.  public records as opposed to private records - to enhance the
> egoboo
>
>
> On th first score I totally agree, but i think it will take 5 to
> 10 years - although some of us will do some of that now.  I
> assess orgs for their online groups, and they cant do web only
> because of not being online all the time, poor bandwith and
> sharing computers.  People need to share telephone lines.
>
> On the second score... BOTH.  More public places but also more
> private and secure places.
>
> But one thing is for sure... more use of the net!  That in itself
> is bigger than the specific technology:
>
> Here is a quote from Business 2.   "The number of US adults with
> Internet access grew to 104 million from 88 million during the
> second half of 2000."
>
> That is fast!
>
> What is the impact of that, even on this group in the next year
> or so?
>
>
> Walter
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:22:54 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "bwc.018" <bwc.018@TRANSHIMALAYAN.COM>
Subject:      Re: Welcome BWC
In-Reply-To:  <iuotdt8t9i33md191t1evd4ab9rs3iaiu7@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all:  BWC here.  Just recovering from a 'major' surgery and only this
date seeing my email for first time in 10 days ... thank you for the welcome
and replies to welcome, etc.  I will be 'with you' soon, but just now need
to rest and catch up.


     "As men approach Me, so, too, do I
      approach them."

                        Krishna

-----Original Message-----
From: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace
[mailto:PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf Of Walter Logeman
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 6:16 AM
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: [P] Welcome BWC


Hi BWC

Thanks for joining this group.  You say you rarely post - join
the club <grin>.

Perhaps you could post here?  Your interest is right in line with
our approach here - psychology and cyberspace.

Walter

~~~


> Most interesting.  I have a long-standing interest in "philosophical
> psychology," in various aspects of 'Eastern' psychology, which I have
> studied in detail.  I am a retired prof. of Philosophy and Eastern
Religions
> w/ a 6 year interest in/study of 'cyberspace.'  This list is right up my
> alley, so to speak.  I look forward to reading the posts.  Although a
member
> of a number of such lists, I rarely post.  More 'informational' interest.
>
>
>
>
>      "As men approach Me, so, too, do I
>       approach them."
>
>                         Krishna

____________________________________________________________
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____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:33:02 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Trying to make sense of it all
In-Reply-To:  <p04330100b70758fb88b1@[207.54.160.33]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Okay, here is a random collection of thoughts to
recent posts....

Walter, I found the synchronicity of your post about
Godot
interesting.  Hmm, is there something going on
unconsciously amongst
people as they try to understand cyberspace?  And in
doing so, do we
make some of this conscious?  Is there a group
consciousness?  Are we
struggling to make the group unconscious conscious?

I write this in part as a response to Robert's
assertion that 'Only
individuals can arrive at consciousness'.  Hmm.  That
somehow doesn't
feel right to me.

On a different list, I just read an article about an
Australian
journalist tracking down the chain reaction of a mail
from Jonah
Peretti about Nike's sweat shops.  "Viral
anti-marketening", six
degrees of cyber separation...

"I visit 75 boardrooms a year and I can tell you the
members of the
boards are living in fear of getting
their corporate reputations blown away in two months
on the
internet."

Micromedia...

So where are we going?  I don't know.  I'm just along
for the ride.
Maybe I can learn a thing or two along the way.

Rob prognosticates, "I think privacy will continue to
dimish on the
web in general.  Digital data is too easy to copy
exactly and
correlate easily."

I think there is something important there.  Nike's
identity got
trashed easily by micromedia.  What happens to us?
How do we protect
our identity as privacy decreases?

Does anyone else here use digital signatures or PGP?
Since I am
currently subscribed via Yahoo Mail, I can't do
digital signatures,
but I can do PGP.

Aldon

(I am signing this with my PGP signature, which is
actually set up
for one of my other email addresses, ahynes1@home.net)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use
<http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBOuR0vJgH9O0kUOCAEQJD9QCgoBVXo0+xoLK/4EnibseY9pFEFyUAnRn+
TLH/8RGM97sgqQmwFrxRB7qi
=Gd52
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:47:25 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Professionalism/was phase 5
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 Walter, All,

You wrote:

>I think spending many thousands of
> hours in what is essentially my profession and not being paid is
> problematic...

N: It seems you have company.  This is from a wealthy Thinking type in
training to be a Jungian Analyst.  Due to the T this poster puts it a bit
more bluntly than you do.  Incidentally it was quite clear to whom the
remarks referred!

"I dislike people using it [the list] for free therapy,
and that cuts both ways. I ... dislike people posting their personal
problems (which should be dealt with in depth in analysis and not on a
mailing list) several times a day."

 N: You are right about being too much the hub, I think.  When you are gone
on vacation there is almost total silence here.  But then you are the only
person I know who tries to maintain the list all by yourself.  That makes it
a lot tougher.

    Best of luck in a difficult balancing act,

    Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Apr 2001 01:30:50 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5
In-Reply-To:  <p04330100b70410ac6041@[207.54.160.114]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen,

> I mean no attack on anybody's goodwill, but, it
> seems to me you couldn't even give my questions much attention, and that
> enumerating high principles was an unsatisfying (to me,) substitute.

True.  I have the goodwill but not the actions.  The talk but not
the walk.  That is painful to me and something i need to change.

I have been very busy as usual of late, and am about to be away
from email till next week - off on a tramp in the hills - much
needed break.  But not a break needed from psyber-l - I am
yearning for more time to focus here.

> Also, the group continues to respond largely to your level of energy and
> input. This is very unusual 'group behavior', but it's at least suggestive
> of what I have long felt to be the case, that the group is well below it's
> critical creative mass.

I am not so sure about the critical mass idea.  The rest is
unusual, perhaps, but certainly not what i want.  I'd have liked
it if in the last few days there had been more response to posts
about the group... many addressed to me.

> This suggests to me -at a minimum- this list needs a new structure/guidance
> and refreshed moderation/facilitation. Alternately, maybe it needs to come
> to closure and sign off. yeah, Phase 6.

The first - and as you say it does not need to be from me - there
needs to be a culture of participation and initiative.  I notice
for example that BWC has arrived in the group  - for the first
time (Welcome again BWC!) - and shared a story about health - I
wish that of the 20 or 30 people here that three or four could
take an interest - why not? Welcomes are important.

I think Stephen, you mention in another post i want it both ways.
Maybe.  What i want is for it ok for me to feel my crisis of time
and be held to some extent by the energy here.  At the same time
I am here enough to maintain the space - admin - payments - and
give reasonable attention to the process.

Some of that is happening. I feel seen challenged and respected
... I appreciate that.

> The prospect of its renewal is a challenge the group will have to address;
> no reason to pretend it doesn't matter or its mostly up to Walter. imo


All for now...

Away for a few days in the hills...


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:50:16 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5 - Linda
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  7bit

In a message dated 04/22/2001 10:21:39 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
flamingleaf@HOTMAIL.COM writes:

> I had begun to think it isn't about souls but indeed about how we fill or do
>  not fill "the void". about "The emptyness". the Buddhist concept of no
>  "self". I thought the silence here the beginning of awareness not of what
is
>  but of what isn't. Not of what we are but what we aren't.
>  Now that we have all been somebodys maybe its time to be no bodies?
>

Hi Linda...

For awhile I have felt that Psyber-L has been in some pattern similar to the
ones out-lined in "Dark Night of the Soul" by St. John of the Cross.  He
writes about the contemplative, mystical aspect of Christianity that has been
ignored in the evolution of most modern Christian churches, but has many
parallels to Buddhism and other Eastern religions.

I'm not sure if I completely understand the steps St. John identifies, but it
seems to me that Psyber-L has been experiencing one of the nights
(collectively, making it a sort of creature of its own?), a night of aridity.
 I need to reread the book and hope to gain more clarity.

BTW, while I tasted some various spiritual philosophies for a little while, I
was drawn to contemplative Christianity mostly because I was raised
Christian.  Though Christianity itself now seems like
rationalization/justification for aggression/control for centuries, I
thought, surely what was behind Christianity wasn't always as dogmatic as it
is now.  And, I also thought that it might help me bridge into my "real life"
world, but so far it hasn't helped much with that.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:50:15 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Welcome BWC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  7bit

Hello BWC,

I hope your recuperation is progressing well, and I'm looking forward to
hearing more from you soon.  I'm also curious to hear about your use of the
Krishna phrase.

Like you, I subscribe to a number of lists but rarely post... except within
Psyber-L.  I hope you'll find that to be true for you, too.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:50:14 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: imagining a quest
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  7bit

Stephen, all...

In a message dated 04/20/2001 9:35:07 PM Mountain Daylight Time, hoon@APK.NET
writes:

> f you close your eyes and imagine *psyber-L on a quest* what image comes
>  into your mind? Where are we? What scenery do you see? What is the smell?
>  What music is
>
>  playing?
>
>  yes...take some time and answer wholeheartedly.
>

I have been doing this, taking my time as you suggested, but I'm thinking,
maybe we should continue to share our thoughts about this as they emerge, and
let them evolve into the vision?  Maybe we each are spending too much time
taking time rather than just moving in and sharing... and that too is part of
the energy drain.

Beginning of my Psyber-L quest image:  My image is primarily dark, with
occasional swirls of colors, that move with some unseen force:  something
like the swirls of rainbow colors in puddles of water (when some unknown
substance, like oil?).  The swirls themselves move if the water is disturbed,
but still hang together for a long long time... longer than I have ever taken
time to watch, anyway.

But eventually they must disappear, because the water does evaporate.

No music, silence... .  What music emerges will be according to the direction
(expansion, contraction) of the swirl.

Now that I have the image of the swirl in my mind, all I can think of in
terms of smell is gasoline.  Maybe I can only exist in the abstract for a
short period of time without locking back into something more concrete.  I
would rather connect some other smell, but that's it for now.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:22:57 -0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         linda oulton <flamingleaf@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5 - Linda
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>And, I also thought that it might help me bridge into my "real life"
>world, but so far it hasn't helped much with that.
>
>Sheryl
>

Hello Sheryl,

I know you wrote of spiritual bridges...but today I want to comment on this
list...so I hope you do not mind I use a few of your words

this list like other lists could be a tool to facility and bridge
communication. either with oneself or with others.with individuals or with
groups.

This list is just that..a tool. It has no life of its own..it is
inanimate..The web is not a brige..it is just electronic impulses...only we
as users can build the bridge..

This week I have been deeply touched by the suicide of a 16 year old/ the
son of a minister in a northern Canadian community...
This 16 year old had a web page and wrote many poems ...all about death and
so on...while reading the poems on his web page, I wondered how is it one
read the poems and did not understand, did not act?

I think I feel at the moment that it is one thing to post/ to communicate
here on the web, but unless there is active listening and personal
engagement, the the frameworks for understanding and ultimate action will
not be built... the bridges to understanding will not be constructed.

WHY ARE WE HERE POSTING?

if all we want is to post and not read..or read and not act...I think the
bridge is not built..and the web will remain just electronic impulses going
nowhere for nobody

My sentiments and value statement in any case.
regards to the group
Linda
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Apr 2001 17:15:26 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The end of a Phase 5 - Linda
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Linda...

If I understood your feelings about the young man who committed suicide
correctly, I believe I felt something similar to what you were expressing in
your post when the Columbine (Colorado, US) tragedy occurred.  The location
where it occurred is not far from me, and I knew a few people in the area,
one whose son was in the cafeteria.  And, I had two sons, in high school,
about the ages of those involved at Columbine.

In other words, that event hit *very* close to home.  Even as the news was
*breaking* here, I felt convinced that there had been some Internet activity
(there was) by the two young gunmen, that it had to do with cyberspace and
whatever qualities were shifting human thinking and expressing - cyber
psychology.

I tried to link it somehow here, in Psyber - space, but not much came out of
it.

But nothing much has come out of anywhere, except the usual blathering
generalities  about what would cause two young men who seemingly had infinite
possibilities - or your young man - to choose those final solutions.

In a message dated 04/27/2001 8:23:18 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
flamingleaf@HOTMAIL.COM writes:

> WHY ARE WE HERE POSTING?
>
>  if all we want is to post and not read..or read and not act...I think the
>  bridge is not built..and the web will remain just electronic impulses going
>  nowhere for nobody
>

Cries in the dark, shouts in the silence.  A question I have is, does anybody
care if no one listens?  Or is it just part of the next evolution?

Thanks for your thoughts,
Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Apr 2001 17:15:28 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: imagining a quest
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Stephen, All, a couple of things...

In a message dated 04/20/2001 9:35:07 PM Mountain Daylight Time, hoon@APK.NET
writes:


>  [ http://www.psybernet.co.nz/circle/  L: psyber p: circle ]
>
>  ***

I tried to go there today, but I didn't have the member name or password.
Could you post it again for us?

>  It's almost like a dream in need of interpretation. I imagine a great Quest
>  to bring something huge enough and novel enough to energize the connections
>  between the center and everybody here today. Particularly to honor the
>  'hugeness' of this group, something commensurate might/must be the 'onject'
>  of such a quest.
>
>  ***
>
>  If you close your eyes and imagine *psyber-L on a quest* what image comes
>  into your mind? Where are we? What scenery do you see? What is the smell?
>  What music is
>
>  playing?
>
>  yes...take some time and answer wholeheartedly.
>
>  ***

I think I did not take enough time to imagine the quest when I described my
grease slick image <apologetic grin>  That actually described more an image I
have of Psyber-L now than any quest I envision.  (BTW, Rob... could this
quest be similar to an egoboo???)

And I do envision a quest, or a construction of some sort...  I am not sure
yet what, though.

I'm committed to post what I come up with... but I'd like to see the CoC game
again.

Questingly,
Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Apr 2001 20:07:03 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      The Quest
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I sit here, eyes closed, except when I open them to
type.  I envision the quest.  There is a large sphere,
a riot of apparently random colours swirling about.
There is music that goes along with it.  A random
cachophony.  I feel myself being drawn in. Are others
being drawn in too?

I remember hearing Allen Ginsburg read his poetry
once.  I had always imagined a great ponderous voice
saying "I saw the best minds of my generation go stark
raving mad, searching the angry gutter for a fix."
When I read it, I heard an angry, passionate voice.
Yet when I heard him read it, it was the voice of a
timid Jewish homosexual from New York City with a
lilting voice.  It didn't seem to fit.

He spoke about levitating the pentagon.  Not everyone
saw it, but he was there tripping on acid.  The
pentagon actually was levitated.  It spun in the air
flashing many colours, perhaps like the orb I see of
the psyber quest.

As I get drawn in, I wonder if there are patterns in
the apparent chaos.  I got struck by one this evening.
 I spend a lot of time in an online community.  Part
of the community involves a role playing game.  I have
become friends with a young woman who is just
finishing her undergraduate degree in electrical
engineering.  In the role playing game she is very
adept at magic and we practice our spells together.
Today, as we were practicing, she said she would have
to leave soon.  She was going to go see Mark Knopfler.
 In the background was one of the channels where the
less mature babbled about g4y d00ds, dongs, bongs,
anal sex and the trenchcoat mafia.  It all swirled
around randomly until the surreal epiphany.  "i grew
up in an amish household. no contemporary music" my
friend said.

For the next hour we talked about amish theology and
technology, the use of electricity in the dairy, about
being shunned and feeling like a tourist in this
world.

Is there a pattern?  In our quest, are we approaching
something?  The swirls appear to have some fractal
shape.  The music now sounds techno, trance, rave, a
minimalism repeating forcefully while evolving slowly.
 I read the emails on the list.  Columbine.  The young
man committing suicide.

Three years ago, my wife and I separated.  It was
hell.  I spiraled down through a major depression.  I
did what I could, but I know the kids suffered.  My
oldest daughter was eight then.  She retreated into
reading fantasy books.  As she came out of her shell,
she wrote poetry.  Always very dark, about death,
murder, lots of blood.  I was worried.  I spoke with
therapists about it.  I followed their advice, yet I
worried.

Two years later, I was engaged.  My daughters loved
their new step-mom to be.  My daughter's poetry
changed...

A Morning on the Roof

I climb out of my warm bed
Up my sill and out onto my roof
I wrap my blanket tightly around me and listen
All is silence,
Interrupted by the distant rumble of my water fall and
the faint calls of early risers
The world belongs to me now
No one else is here to claim it
I look at the shadow of my trees
Almost green in the pre-dawn light
Not really light or darkness
I watch my breath misting the cold air
The only movement for miles
The black water of my river is still and my trees are
not shivering
I look again and see the rosy light of dawn creeping
up on shadows that have ruled all night
There is no mystery about the outcome of this battle
The trees have already begun to surrender
First the high trees on the far off ridge
Then the top leaves of my trees
And then their branches
The shadows evacuating so fast I can almost see it
Soon morning will come riding on Apollos chariot and
chasing away the little darkness left
Bringing a new day and new hope
I crawl back into my room

There is no mystery to the outcome of this battle.
Yet a month later, I lost my job.  I've been
unemployed for six months now and worry about loosing
my house, the one with the roof my daughter crawled
out on.  The fears mount.  My new wife is carrying a
child.  Who will this new person be?  What sort of
provider will I be?

I return to my friends online.  The amish electrical
engineer has logged off, but there are others around.


The internet provides a chance for connection amongst
the last lonely and wretched.  Sometimes hope is
spread, sometimes hate.

What is your message?  For me, There is no mystery to
the outcome of this battle.

Aldon


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