From LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM Sun May 27 09:27:58 2001
Return-Path: <>
Delivered-To: walterl1@w.pop.ihug.co.nz
Received: (qmail 24214 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 21:44:02 -0000
Received: from mx2-1.ihug.co.nz (HELO mx2.ihug.co.nz) (203.29.168.197)
  by kate.ihug.co.nz with SMTP; 26 May 2001 21:44:02 -0000
Received: from home.ease.lsoft.com [209.119.0.9] 
	by mx2.ihug.co.nz with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian))
	id 153loM-00008i-00; Sun, 27 May 2001 09:41:26 +1200
Received: from home (home.ease.lsoft.com) by home.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <9.FC69F6E3@home.ease.lsoft.com>; Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:58 -0400
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:58 -0400
From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)"              <LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG0012"
To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Message-Id: <E153loM-00008i-00@mx2.ihug.co.nz>
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:34:07 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Collaboration, confrontation and conflict
In-Reply-To:  <v8d02t43o3r9s9rd15cca7rt2q04nqauum@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy endless polarized discussions like
abortion any more than you do.  I do, however, enjoy cold facts and
logic more than speculation.  I'm not sure how to lead this back into
our discussion since I'm not even sure where it is at this point.

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Walter Logeman wrote:

> Probably not.  I think of confrontation as "naming a difference",
> In counselling work we need to do it all the time... "you look
> sad, but you tell me all is well" etc.  Or, last week you said
> this now you say that.
>
> Confrontation is different from accusation, blame, name calling
> etc.
>
> Collaboration involves differences of opinion and resolving them
> or living with them in some way. Getting right to the core of
> difference can lead into the hot zones... probably needs to.
>
> I think where i am heading is that I like conversation, that goes
> somewhere.  That means going into the heat but not burning up in
> flames.  That takes some skill.
>
> Of course some people just enjoy the endless battle - easy to
> find - abortion discussions etc.

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:49:39 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Spiritual type, and I never forgot
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

These are some thoughts that have recently come to light regarding my
persepctive on religion.  They're posted to my web page on the following
links:

http://epistolary.org/rob/article.phtml?id=188
http://epistolary.org/rob/article.phtml?id=187

with links and images inside of those documents.  The image that the
second part is referring to is:

http://epistolary.org/rob/images/nynacfax.jpg

This is my religious coming out.  My parents and my close friends know
that I'm not interested in my church anymore, but nobody in my parents'
congregation does, since I moved away to Baltimore about the time I
stopped going.

I'm posting it here because of the way that the Internet is involved,
for your thoughts.  Please excuse some of the grammatical errors.

---

Tonight I did a search for the the New Apostolic Church on Google and
was presented with an enticing ad for BeliefNet that read What type of
Christian are you? Take our Christianity quiz and find out. So I
couldn't resist. Their religious quizzes are really fascinating, but the
one I took, What's your Spirital Type was the most interesting.

End of story: in this quiz I rated between 30 and 39, which makes me a
Spiritual Dabbler, open to spiritual matters but far from impressed. I
think that's pretty accurate. For the record, I'll recap the thoughts
that the quiz prompted me to choose from:

(Note: most of this text is just my answers from the quiz itself)

I believe that God is a spiritual ideal, not an actual being. Evil is
present in the world because of human failings; evil has no supernatural
component. I believe that angels do not exist. I believe that the Devil
or demons do not exist I think that following life there is nothing. I
believe there is no spirit world.

When I think about issues of faith or spirituality, my foremost concern
is a rational understanding of whether religious claims are valid. If I
had to categorize my own religious and spiritual beliefs, I would say
they are moderate; part of me is spiritual and part of me is
skeptical. Each days newspaper brings reports of crimes, natural
disasters, and disease. My most basic reaction is that such tragedies
make me confused about the nature of the Higher Power.

I believe the Bible should be viewed mainly as storytelling or metaphor,
not a literal account. Regarding the formal teachings of specific
denominations, I take practically everything taught by faith with a
grain of salt. Regarding those who hold beliefs that are sharply
different from mine, I think they may be sincere but are mistaken or
ill-informed.

Faith is important because it makes the world a better place, by
encouraging love and moral behavior. I think children should be taught
spiritual awareness but also to avoid affiliating with formal
religion. People should be moral and loving, but life itself is a
chemical accident lacking inherent meaning. In regards to religion and
morality, its entirely possible to develop and live by a good moral code
without religion.

I think prayer is best understood as a form of meditation or moral
awareness. In my view, God either does not exist, or Gods nature can
never be known. I believe that the universe we observe is completely
natural and has no higher aspect. Science and faith seem to me two
aspects of the same search for ultimate truth. The spiritual quest for
me is mostly about learning to lead a good life or finding inner peace.

What frustrates me most about faith is that religions continue to create
barriers and hostility between people.

I find the keys to spiritual fulfillment through books, music, and
nature. To be valuable to me, religion and spirituality must be sought
partly with a group and partly by myself. Nature is a spiritual force in
itself.

--

When did this happen?


Back in 1995, I set up an unofficial little New Apostolic Church website
on some borrowed space from Bob Lindabury in Piscataway, NJ. It was a
bland creation of gray screens and clean, inoffensive addresses of
members who would be interested in receiving e-mail from other NAC
members and ways to get in contact with local rectors (the same
information available on invitation cards, I would note) for a visiting
user that might be interested in the church.

At that time, there was no official central clearinghouse space on the
Internet for information on my church. I needed something that I could
link to for my tech-savvy friends. Back then, the large majority of my
best friends and confidants were the ones I found in the security of the
Internet, and I wanted to share my faith with them. Also, a number of
sites with critical perspectives and attacks on the church were
springing up around the web, and I wanted to do my small part with the
resources I had to provide an alternative.

In January of 1996, the bishop of the New Jersey District at the time
sat down with my father and told him tell me, in so many words, to turn
it off completely. Apparently someone from had thoughtfully provided a
printout of my entire NAC homepage via fax to his office. From there, I
can only assume that some anonymous person decided the most judicious
course of action would be to simply squelch it. And down it went.

Who could this wonderful person be? I didn't know until Bob sent me a
copy of the January 1996 traffic records, and I compared them to the
pages that had been downloaded and the times they had been printed
out. In that time period, there was one system in the log to have been
comprehensive enough to download the complete page, including the the
links and pictures to the printouts dated 01/17/96 14:23:31 local time.

The line below is an example from the full logs, which downloaded every
page under that directory structure within a period of a few minutes at
9:24 GMT (11:24 EST).

[Wed, 17 Jan 1996 09:24:22 GMT] ns.viacom.com - - "GET /nac/nac.htm
HTTP/1.0" 200 2698 <- Mozilla/2.0b5 (Win16; I)>

At the time (and even now) there are a bunch of New Apostolic Church
members working for Viacom and it's subsidiaries, so I don't know who of
the half-dozen or more actually sent the information over, but I know it
was one of them.

It was a bitter hit for me. I was only 16, but I was fully aware and
responsible for my own actions. There was an e-mail address written
prominently on the page, but this anonymous person never contacted me to
discuss this before sending it up the ladder of authority within the
church. The Bishop didn't talk to me. He talked to my father, who did
his best to defend me, but considered it perhaps an unworthy fight.

Which leads to the question, of course, why do I bring this up today,
almost five years later? That's because I still have that fax.

The booklet on the top is my Confirmation certificate. It represents
everything that I learned spiritually in the first 15 years of my life,
both from my parents, participation in church services, and religious
instruction and confirmation classes that I attended on many Mondays for
many years. It represents the foundation for the moral guidelines I
developed years after I stopped relying on a church for them and started
thinking about what really mattered.

The bottom consists of the five burnished, and tightly faded pages of
thermal fax paper that represent the sense of community that the church
spoke about and tried to instill, but never really provided to me. It a
representation of the open world that I found in the Internet, and the
closed and secretive cliques I found outside the community of my local
congregations within the church.

Those papers sit flush next to each other, in a dusty folder in a file
box in my closet. A reminder, every time I think of my Confirmation to
think about the things that disenchanted me, and every time I think of
what I am today to think of the foundation of morals that the church
gave me to build myself on.

Is it any surprise that the large majority of my closest friends are
spiritual dabblers too?

Rob

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 06:41:45 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Collaboration, confrontation and conflict
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Okay, I'll take a shot at leading this back into our
discussion...  As I said before, I don't know a lot
about Meyers-Briggs, or Jung for that matter, but
wasn't one of the tempraments something about liking
speculation or cold facts more?  Liking closure versus
liking to keep things open?

As I associate pseudo-randomly to this, I stop to
think about the current U.S. Presidential election.
Are we more interested in closure or exploring all the
possibilities?  What is the distribution of people
preferring one approach or another?

Can I infer from this that Rob prefers Bush?

Enough.
Aldon
--- Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU> wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy endless polarized
> discussions like
> abortion any more than you do.  I do, however, enjoy
> cold facts and
> logic more than speculation.  I'm not sure how to
> lead this back into
> our discussion since I'm not even sure where it is
> at this point.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:22:37 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Spiritual type, and I never forgot
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0012102347440.21867-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rob
> Is it any surprise that the large majority of my closest friends are
> spiritual dabblers too?

The last lines of your beautifully told story of vital steps and
stages in your spiritual journey.

I have enjoyed hearing about you.  Thanks for posting it up.

> I believe that angels do not exist. I believe that the Devil
> or demons do not exist I think that following life there is nothing. I
> believe there is no spirit world.

That makes sense, but it begs the question about "exist".

Here is a passage i just read in a book by Jeanette Winterson,
PowerBook:

"At the bazaar the copper pots were coming in stacked on the
ox-carts.  Eager hands carried them to shaded rugs, to burnish up
the spatterings with a cloth. All the pots were sealed--it keeps
the genie in, and no Turk would want a pot without a genie.

"Humble or grand, what is made must keep with it the memory of
what cannot be made.  In the spun cloth, the thrown earthenware,
the beaten pot and the silver box, is Allah--the spirit of God in
the things of the world.

"Atom and dream"


Now that is a different take on the division between atoms and
bits.


Walter






______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:17:23 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Collaboration, confrontation and conflict
In-Reply-To:  <20001211144145.11740.qmail@web2104.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Aldon Hynes wrote:

> Okay, I'll take a shot at leading this back into our discussion...
> As I said before, I don't know a lot about Meyers-Briggs, or Jung
> for that matter, but wasn't one of the tempraments something about
> liking speculation or cold facts more?  Liking closure versus liking
> to keep things open?

That would be my indefatigable INTJ temperment talking.  The P/J on the
end says whether I'm a Perceiver (Open) or Judger (Closed).

> As I associate pseudo-randomly to this, I stop to think about the
> current U.S. Presidential election. Are we more interested in
> closure or exploring all the possibilities?  What is the
> distribution of people preferring one approach or another?
> Can I infer from this that Rob prefers Bush?

No, I prefer Gore by a large margin.  I was just thinking to myself on
the way home the other day that I would be willing to suffer through two
months more of no Presidency if that would put him into office.

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:35:49 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Spiritual type, and I never forgot
In-Reply-To:  <f22b3ts9ps1gbr74m8m9n5ablf0q79igfc@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Walter Logeman wrote:

> The last lines of your beautifully told story of vital steps and
> stages in your spiritual journey.

Actually, I'd call it more of a social journey, facilitated by the
Internet.

> I have enjoyed hearing about you.  Thanks for posting it up.

Glad you did.  I need to make a sort of declaration on this, and the net
seems the best way to do it.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make on the quote about the
pots.  Care to expand on it?

Rob

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:15:42 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Spiritual type, and I never forgot
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0012131034000.356-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rob

> I'm not sure what point you're trying to make on the quote about the
> pots.  Care to expand on it?

I will, however right now I am packing to go away and will be
away from my computer for a week!

You are not sure what I am trying to make ... but what would you
make of it at first guess? What do you think I am trying to
say...

gOT TO GO!


Walter

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:56:53 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Spiritual type, and I never forgot
In-Reply-To:  <s6pg3t058su5m5kedcjre6mmp867i9812p@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Walter Logeman wrote:

> I will, however right now I am packing to go away and will be
> away from my computer for a week!

But at least you'll have your Palm Pilot and keyboard, right?

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:33:02 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Spiritual type, and I never forgot
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rob, I don't think that you received as much response to this post of yours
as I would have liked.  It was a well written, thoughtful post of a piece of
your personal journey in the spiritual/religious realm.  I read about 3
paragraphs on my computer screen, and then I thought, no, it deserves more
than that.  So I printed it out and read it later, when I had a chance to
absorb it better.  I very rarely print email of any kind, but I was glad I
did yours.

It seemed to me that, if I can call it a crisis, betrayal by your church
leaders was an experience of people, not of God/Great Spirit/Tiny Atom Which
Guides Us/Univeral Force/anything else it can be called.  Is that the way you
perceive the experience?

If this is true, it also seems to me that your experience was verification of
what a prophet or savior teaches... the fallibility and imperfection of
humans.

Betrayal by church leaders can paradoxically reinforce personal spirituality,
whether we forget or remember.

Ok, I think I'll end this because now I'm starting to feel a little too
preachy.

Sheryl

In a message dated 12/10/00 9:50:04 PM Mountain Standard Time,
rcarls2@UMBC.EDU writes:

> Those papers sit flush next to each other, in a dusty folder in a file
>  box in my closet. A reminder, every time I think of my Confirmation to
>  think about the things that disenchanted me, and every time I think of
>  what I am today to think of the foundation of morals that the church
>  gave me to build myself on.
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Dec 2000 11:07:51 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      xmas greetings
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Psyberians,

I've not forgotten you,  even  though I  write here not so often.
   My past year has been very hectic - travels all over Europe, and =
writing. In Novemeber I finished a novel called The Black Passport. It =
is a story on my uncle's unbelievable adventures in Soviet Union during =
the Stalin era. It will be published in the beginning of April.
   Soon after Epiphany   I shall  pack once again my  suitcase, and =
leave for South-France, near Avignon to write a new novel.  There is no =
net connection, nor  cybercafes at that small town called Uzes, in which =
 I'll settle down for 3 months.

I wish  you all a happy  Christmas, and have a fabulous 2001!


Anita

anitak@megabaud.fi
http://geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:25:58 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      (fwd) virus/worm NAVIDAD.EXE
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Forwarded [Better late than never] from Walter Logeman
<walter@psybernet.co.nz>, a post from Nancy Smith
<nsmith@negia.net>, dated Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:55:30 -0800,
with the subject "virus/worm NAVIDAD.EXE":

~~~

Dear Walter,

  Due to the 'subject' I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to
'wipe' my hard drive.  (Though everything checks out ok, so
you're not in danger) I only half know what I'm doing and likely
no real help will be available until after Christmas.  I hate to
just 'disappear' from the list when I'd just gotten back to it,
so if you might be good enough to post a notice of some sort?
And just when it was getting so interesting about religion etc.
But my 'systems' are too damaged to access Rob's site (for
example).

  I'll 'see' you when I 'see' you...  Hope everyone has a good
Christmas.

     Blessings,  Nancy

PS Just 'post' this, if you like.  I figure the sentence
structure will drive Charles 'buggy' (wicked grin).

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 20:26:42 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: xmas greetings
In-Reply-To:  <001e01c06d89$47279f20$970136d4@oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anita and all Psyberians,

I am online!  Just for an hour or so.  We have begin in the
Malborough sounds for Christmas ( I was expecting the phone to
work there, but it simply would not do email!  We will be away
for another week or two.  Walking in the hills.

Anita all the best with the new novel... will it go to English?
All your travels are amazing and the South of France sounds so
romantic.  (Don't cut off any ears!)

We are having an exciting time.  Kate has just quit her job and
is about to set up a Horse Trekking business and we are doing
market research!

My plans for 2001 are to go one step further into Groups
Online... dropping psychotherapy work to about 6 clients over the
year.  Doing more online interaction design. I am buzzing with
plans and ideas.


> I wish  you all a happy  Christmas, and have a fabulous 2001!

Well hope you all *had* a good Christmas and have a good new
year.


Walter
______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:55:11 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: xmas greetings
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I too pass on Christmas greetings to everyone, or
greetings for whatever tradition people prefer.  I am
currently reading _The Hero With a Thousand Faces_ by
Joseph Campbell which gets into a comparision of
different traditions and searches for a common
underlying theme.  Great book.

I also think of a song by Dar Williams called "The
Christians and the Pagans", which I've listened to a
lot recently.  "Christmas is like solitice and we miss
you."

Meanwhile, I am in the process of a job change with
great uncertainty right now, and trying to write and
not getting much done...

So Merry Christmas to everyone...

Aldon
--- Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:
> Anita and all Psyberians,
>
> I am online!  Just for an hour or so.  We have begin
> in the
> Malborough sounds for Christmas ( I was expecting
> the phone to
> work there, but it simply would not do email!  We
> will be away
> for another week or two.  Walking in the hills.
>
> Anita all the best with the new novel... will it go
> to English?
> All your travels are amazing and the South of France
> sounds so
> romantic.  (Don't cut off any ears!)
>
> We are having an exciting time.  Kate has just quit
> her job and
> is about to set up a Horse Trekking business and we
> are doing
> market research!
>
> My plans for 2001 are to go one step further into
> Groups
> Online... dropping psychotherapy work to about 6
> clients over the
> year.  Doing more online interaction design. I am
> buzzing with
> plans and ideas.
>
>
> > I wish  you all a happy  Christmas, and have a
> fabulous 2001!
>
> Well hope you all *had* a good Christmas and have a
> good new
> year.
>
>
> Walter
> ______________
> Walter Logeman
> walter@psybernet.co.nz
> http://www.psybernet.co.nz
> Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/
>
>
____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or
> unsubscribe
> here:
> http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
> .
> here:
> http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
> .
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:52:17 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Virtual community on /,

As this community is all about exploring psyche
in psyberspace - it seems to me appropriate
to post the following link

Jon Katz is, in my mind, responsible for creating one
of the most lively online communities, not
just in sheer traffic - which is huge - but
in terms of how effective, readable and interesting
it is, namely Slashdot.

Personally I like reading the slash dot posts
in 'Highest Scores First" mode, and with a threshold
so that only the highest scoring posts are visible.

Its a great idea - and occasionally i get to
be a 'moderator' myself which is kinda cool!

Anyway - you might want to check out the following
link... an article that JonKatz has written about
Virtual Community

"Rethinking Virtual Community: Part Three"
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/12/15/1619213&mode=thread


Also, those of you who want to know more about
how /. (slashdot) works might be interested in
"The Moderator Guidelines"
http://slashdot.org/moderation.shtml

--

Im interested to hear what people on this list
think about /. What do you think about this idea
of 'meta-moderation' ? Could you see it working
outside of the tech-friendly geek community
of slash dot ?
--

Miles

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:00:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Virtual community on /,
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%2000122813521782@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I've been on Slashdot for... well, a long time.  I'm user number 10844.

I think Jon Katz is a novice journalist who presses hot-buttons to get a
reaction from the (ostensibly) persecuted geek crowd.

Here's an interview my friend Vergil did with him:

  http://www.hackedtobits.com/120400/katz1.htm

Moderation is nice.  I enjoy seeing that enough people thought my
writing was inspired enough to give it a point or two, especially if it
makes it up to five.  But I know what buttons to push in that forum to
get a good response too.

I don't moderate because meta-moderation always seems to take away my
Karma points, even if what I did was fair.  Meta-moderation is
anonymous, and it gets abused a lot.

Even if you went down to meta- meta- meta- meta- meta- moderation, you'd
still have one point where the participants in that process aren't
accountable anymore.

Slashdot was an innovator, and it continues to work, but I think it's
past its peak already.

Rob

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Miles Thompson wrote:

> As this community is all about exploring psyche
> in psyberspace - it seems to me appropriate
> to post the following link
>
> Jon Katz is, in my mind, responsible for creating one
> of the most lively online communities, not
> just in sheer traffic - which is huge - but
> in terms of how effective, readable and interesting
> it is, namely Slashdot.
>
> Personally I like reading the slash dot posts
> in 'Highest Scores First" mode, and with a threshold
> so that only the highest scoring posts are visible.
>
> Its a great idea - and occasionally i get to
> be a 'moderator' myself which is kinda cool!
>
> Anyway - you might want to check out the following
> link... an article that JonKatz has written about
> Virtual Community
>
> "Rethinking Virtual Community: Part Three"
> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/12/15/1619213&mode=thread
>
>
> Also, those of you who want to know more about
> how /. (slashdot) works might be interested in
> "The Moderator Guidelines"
> http://slashdot.org/moderation.shtml
>
> --
>
> Im interested to hear what people on this list
> think about /. What do you think about this idea
> of 'meta-moderation' ? Could you see it working
> outside of the tech-friendly geek community
> of slash dot ?
> --
>
> Miles
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:05:25 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: xmas greetings
In-Reply-To:  <20001228165511.8406.qmail@web2102.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Aldon Hynes wrote:

> I also think of a song by Dar Williams called "The
> Christians and the Pagans", which I've listened to a
> lot recently.  "Christmas is like solitice and we miss
> you."

Solitice?  I'm assuming you mean Solstice?  I'm assuming this is a song
sung between two different beliefs within the same family?

I wrote out my "holiday" e-mails this year, and got back one response
saying that I should just say Christmas, because even with all the
Political Correctness that goes on, "it's not a dirty word."

I didn't really think it was, I'm just trying to be as open-minded as
possible.  I have a lot of friends who celebrate Christmas, and a lot
who don't.

I mean, what's preferred?  If you celebrate Christmas and your friends
celebrate Solstice, Kwanza, and Hanukah, do you send them all Christmas
cards, "Holiday" cards, or customize the greeting to their beliefs?

Who knows these days.

Rob

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:30:09 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: xmas greetings

I've just spent my first .. christmas
in the US and my wife and I were initially
puzzled then, I guess, a bit let down
by the way everyone (on TV esp) was
enjoining us to have 'Happy Holidays"
it seems so generic and bland.

I mean I totally understand the reason why people
dont want to say 'Christmas' to someone
celebrating Chanukah, and so I guess its
inevitable that we will eventually
find a different way to wish the
joys of the season to someone,
but like i say

'happy holidays' seems so incredibly
bland, so THX 1138 ..

you know.. kinda ..
" have an enjoyable entertainment period
  unit twenty three x .."

And what distinguishes *these*
happy holidays from any other holidays ?

Theres no substance, no taste to that
phrase - I guess what's needed is something
else.. maybe not "happy christmas"
but something else.. something
with a bit of taste and history to it ?

Joys of the Season ?

What else can we think of?

--

Miles (getting Meta even over his Merry Christmas) Thompson

who would also like to wish you and
all a very wonderful and merry
Christmas (or whatever) and a happy
new year to come!

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:33:09 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Virtual community on /,
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I read the first article by Katz.  He referenced some
fairly important authors in the field of internet
research, but I had serious questions about his
conclusions.  I've been discussing this article a
little bit in LambdaMOO (a very active online
community).  Here is what I posted there:

---------

Thanks to Tower to pointing to the article about
Virtual Communities on slashdot.  I think it raises a
lot of interesting questions, but I find I have a lot
of questions about the assertions.  I guess one of the
first questions I have, which fits back to pingu's
work, is 'what is community?'  The article seems to
equate community with locality, permanence, and
intimacy, and I question that assertion.  It also
seems to assert that face to face communication is
necessary to control discussion, mediate disputes, or
reach broad consensus.

As I read the article, my mind wandered to an article
in the Washington Post,
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33711-2000Dec20.html,
about the deep structure of the internet being based
on gift giving, and not an expectation of immediate
return, and an investment research article by
Durlacher,
http://www.durlacher.co.uk/research/resrepdetail21.asp
about the need for internet portals to develop a sense
of community online to survive.  I would love to hear
comments on any of these articles.

---------
I am particularly interested in people's reaction to
the assertion that face to face communication is
necessary to control discussion, mediate disputes, or
reach broad consensus.  Does that match experiences
here?  Is this list a community?

As a final comment, Rob's comments about Jon sound
about right to me.

Aldon

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:41:13 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Virtual community on /.

: rob wrote >
> I've been on Slashdot for... well, a long time.  I'm user number 10844.

Cool ! I'm user 113450 so that puts me a whole order of magnitude
further 'out' on the onion eh ?

> I think Jon Katz is a novice journalist who presses hot-buttons to get a
> reaction from the (ostensibly) persecuted geek crowd.

Oh. I see. OK then. There seems to be this general bunch of 'core
slashdot' people like CmndrTaco etc etc, so i didnt realise
JonK was 'only'(sic) a  journalist ..

> Here's an interview my friend Vergil did with him:
>
>   http://www.hackedtobits.com/120400/katz1.htm

Hmmm yeah. Interesting read. Thanks for that. My brother is also
an 'online' journalist and he gets a lot of info just
out of how popular his stories are - imagine how much
more info he could get if he had discussion forums worth
of feedback. Of course we all find stuff which is only even
vaguely reated to ourselves pretty interesting huh ?

> Moderation is nice.  I enjoy seeing that enough people thought my
> writing was inspired enough to give it a point or two, especially if it
> makes it up to five.  But I know what buttons to push in that forum to
> get a good response too.
>
> I don't moderate because meta-moderation always seems to take away my
> Karma points

 eah ? eeeek. Hmmm I saw the (highly rated)
post by a dude saying that he thought once
we have audio and video a lot of the flaming
and such will clear up.. and I down moderated
it (marked it as 'overrated') .. I guess that
means that I'm bringing down the karma
points of both me and the whoever moderted
this post up.

Hmmm.. Kinda a recipe for blandness and middle
of the road really eh?


> even if what I did was fair.  Meta-moderation is
> anonymous, and it gets abused a lot.
>
> Even if you went down to meta- meta- meta- meta- meta- moderation, you'd
> still have one point where the participants in that process aren't
> accountable anymore.

hmm.. yeah. I kinda like the idea that, one day,
just by watching a show, or listening to some
music I am 'recommending' it to people like me.

I guess where slashdot is wrong is in thinking
that a post lies on a scale between 'good' and
'bad' rather than, even that scale being
a matter of opinion. (Of course /. moderation
is complicated enuff as it is, but for the
sake of argument say )

> Slashdot was an innovator, and it continues to work, but I think it's
> past its peak already.

Hmm yeah? Maybe so. What I find interesting
is that, despite its success,
its approach hasn't been copied more often.

I guess that the number of controls and
stuff is too complicated and scary for most
sites - which 'just want your basic forums'
but... hmm i guess I'd like to see the
day that people become educated
about such things.


--

Miles

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:56:50 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      NY greetings
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Oh sorry Psyber-folk,

I regret my political  incorrectness being the consequence of the =
monocultural Finnish background. I promise from now on to send only  =
seasonal  and happy holiday greetings, especially at Midsummer.

Have a Brilliant 2001
Cheers
Anita


anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities/Athens/Ithaca/9661

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 22:47:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Janell Adair <jfadair9@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: NY greetings
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Happy 2001 to Everyone!!!!!!

    Regardless of the season I hope everyone has a happy and healthy year in
2001  !!!!!!


      Janell

 P.S. Right now there's 12 inches of snow on the ground where I am.  I could
do with some warmer weather.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Anita Konkka" <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
To: <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 4:56 AM
Subject: [P] NY greetings


> Oh sorry Psyber-folk,
>
> I regret my political  incorrectness being the consequence of the
monocultural Finnish background. I promise from now on to send only
seasonal  and happy holiday greetings, especially at Midsummer.
>
> Have a Brilliant 2001
> Cheers
> Anita
>
>
> anitak@megabaud.fi
> http://www.geocities/Athens/Ithaca/9661
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html




