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To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:40:59 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: fiction
In-Reply-To:  <4.3.1.0.20001031180925.00a7bcf0@mail.megabaud.fi>
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Anita

> At first I read
> The  Midsummer's Night Dream - of course.  We had here for some summers
> ago  our own  Midsummer's  Dream Event. Methinks, that  Shakespeare's
> comedy is  the most  Psyber-ish or-lish.

First Stephen now Anita - so I have had a look and quickly saw
these psyberellish lines:

~

Swift as a shadow, short as any dream;
Brief as the lightning in the collied night,
That, in a spleen, unfolds both heaven and earth,
And ere a man hath power to say 'Behold!'
The jaws of darkness do devour it up:
So quick bright things come to confusion.

~

I have made a link on the weblog -see sig.


Walter


______________
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Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:45:58 +1300
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: fiction
In-Reply-To:  <tilvvsoobmhppjv13r6kg69ntvv27u3aug@4ax.com>
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How about:


PUCK


If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumber'd here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend:
if you pardon, we will mend:
And, as I am an honest Puck,
If we have unearned luck
Now to 'scape the serpent's tongue,
We will make amends ere long;
Else the Puck a liar call;
So, good night unto you all.
Give me your hands, if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends.




______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:38:42 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Anglican fiction
In-Reply-To:  <20001031151620.5574.qmail@web2101.mail.yahoo.com>
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Aldon

> I was on the Vestry at the time and recorded a lot of
> the events on the church web page.  The archives can
> be found at
> http://members.home.com/ahynes1/stf/aids.htm

Good to read this.  I presume it is ok to link it publicly?

Walter

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 04:38:58 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: The patterns that connect
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I am getting married on Saturday, so I did not dress
up for Halloween when I took my kids (from the first
marriage) trick or treating.  They were disappointed,
but considering the marriage, gave me some leeway.

If I had of had the time and energy, I probably would
have been a left over hippie.  My beard and hair are
long enough, and it suits my personality.

Aldon

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Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 04:49:51 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Meyers-Briggs ... again
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Robert -

   Thanks for the 'reminder'.  In my case it was new
information.  As I noted before, I am not well versed
in Jung or Meyers-Brigss....

   However this fits even better with my own thoughts
about Meyers-Briggs and about group dynamics.  I
wonder to what extent our interaction with this group
affects our is shaped by the group.  As an example are
people drawn more to an extroverted dynamic on this
list?  Does this list help bring out the 'feeling'
aspect of a person?  Is there a 'resting state' for
the group as a whole?  How is that formed?  Does it
change over time?

   This would fit well with the SIDE theory that I
mentioned in a previous post.  It might be interesting
to see how people respond to a personality test in a
group (either face to face, or at least synchronous.
I am not sure how well it would work in an
asynchronous group like a mailing list), and compare
the results with taking the same test alone.

Aldon

--- "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA> wrote:
> Just a reminder that the Meyers-Briggs (based on
> Jung's work on
> Psychological Types (CW vol. 6) indicates the
> "resting" state between
> polarities.


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Date:         Thu, 2 Nov 2000 01:43:39 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Congratulations!
In-Reply-To:  <20001101123858.21208.qmail@web2104.mail.yahoo.com>
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Aldon

> I am getting married on Saturday

Congratulations!  May you have a good event and a marriage that
does what it needs to do for you both.

Our 2nd anniversary is on the 13th, so far so good -- we were
together for 8 or 9 years before that. The sheer intensity
importance and power of it all is still close to me. I can
imagine the excitement...

Go well,


Walter







______________
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walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:28:28 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Meyers-Briggs ... again
MIME-Version: 1.0
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  Aldon, first let me add my congratulations to Walter's and as he said
so well, may your marriage do for each of you what you most need.
  Thanks to Robert for posting the test site.  I've bookmarked it now.
  I was in a workplace staff development day where the Meyers-Briggs was
given.  One of several times I've tested T.  That time, I'll say without
apology, when there was a doubt about answers, I went with the one the
'boss' would approve.
  This is a 'problem' in terms of where and for what purpose projective
tests are given.  Generally I'm 'test-wise' enough not to fear such
situations.  Yet I have some doubts about the ethics of such use.
  To state what is probably the obvious, I feel that extraverting on a
mailing list like Psyber-L, is much less draining on us introverts, than
in face to face groups.
  Robert said that he extroverted as required for many of his head
master of a school work.  No slur intended, Robert, but
I tend to agree with Jung when he says that when we use our inferior
function (and I'd assume I/E attitudes) we do so with less finesse than
when using the more practised superior ones.  At least this is certainly
true of me.

  Best to all, Nancy

Aldon Hynes wrote:

>   I wonder to what extent our interaction with this group
> affects our is shaped by the group.  As an example are
> people drawn more to an extroverted dynamic on this
> list?
>    It might be interesting to see how people respond to a personality test in a  group (either face to face, or at least synchronous.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:49:23 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <p04330101b6247615cec2@[207.54.160.175]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Stephen Calhoun wrote:

> Rob writes, "Right now, it's intimate, but not as productive as it could be
> in terms of competing ideas."
>
> Didn't want this to pass without notice, Rob. This interests me. Maybe it
> has some relationship with a dialogue as a kind of musical interplay. The
> image of a 'polyphonic' dialogue comes to mind.

In a group this small it's easy to get caught up in fallacious circular
discussions where everyone is just seconding the opinions of everyone
else.  Especially in a group where everyone is here with the same
purpose.

Rob

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:23:48 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011011047150.9817-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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all,

Rob writes,
"In a group this small it's easy to get caught up in fallacious circular
discussions where everyone is just seconding the opinions of everyone else.
Especially in a group where everyone is here with the same purpose."

Sheryl previously asked, "And, after all this time, I'm curious why are we
here?  What do we each seek here, searching for psyche in cyberspace?"

This question about purpose has been asked before and the answers truly
express the group's dynamic (in that it is a 'work-in-progress')
purposefulness.

Rest assured, "it's easy to get caught up in fallacious circular
discussions where everyone is just seconding the opinions of everyone else"
hasn't happened very much at all here. In fact, generally, participants are
fairly intrepid about letting everybody know where they stand.

***

I wonder if you feel this is what your experience -so far- suggests to you
"everyone is here with the same purpose."?

***

(I recall now the 'Wilbur" era when this group did learn what it was like
to disagree with someone who was absolutely fanatically convinced of his
own certainties. The awesome differential did not promote creative weighing
of possible truths. To my way of feeling, there isn't anything more
circular than surety: "It is true because I know it is so!")

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:26:55 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Purpose
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Is everyone here with the same purpose?  Not to get
too caught up in symantics, but I would be tempted to
suggest 'similar' purposes.  I am not sure I know
exactly what our purpose is but it seems something
like:

To figure out if we are all here with the same or
similar purposes, what those purposes might be, how we
might react to people with other purposes.  Through
this, coming to get a better understanding of
ourselves, this group, all groups, the psyche and how
it all works out in cyberspace.

Maybe this is being circular.  Maybe that's okay.
Maybe this is dynamic.  My own sense of who I am is
dynamic and by extention I suppose my sense of this
group, all groups, and the psyche is also dynamic.

Back to the music metaphor, dynamics are essential in
making the music interesting.

Aldon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:45:23 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I agree with Rob.   :-)

Aldon

--- Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU> wrote:
> In a group this small it's easy to get caught up in
> fallacious circular
> discussions where everyone is just seconding the
> opinions of everyone
> else.  Especially in a group where everyone is here
> with the same
> purpose.


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Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:17:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <20001101164523.29338.qmail@web2106.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thanks.  I think your reply was pretty intelligent too.  Keep up the
good work!

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Aldon Hynes wrote:

> I agree with Rob.   :-)
>
> Aldon
>
> --- Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU> wrote:
> > In a group this small it's easy to get caught up in
> > fallacious circular
> > discussions where everyone is just seconding the
> > opinions of everyone
> > else.  Especially in a group where everyone is here
> > with the same
> > purpose.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:30:10 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      agreement
In-Reply-To:  <20001101164523.29338.qmail@web2106.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Aldon, all,

Let me rephrase my point in the form of a question,

Why, in this group, has not the following happened very much?

"In a group this small it's easy to get caught up in fallacious circular
discussions where everyone is just seconding the opinions of everyone else.
Especially in a group where everyone is here with the same purpose."

***

regards,

Stephen

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Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:35:05 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <39FF4F8E.7616A161@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Hi all,

Nancy,  I think  that your description  fits me, although I  haven't the
faintest idea what  the XNTX means.
   Robert's response brought to my mind that we have previously
discussed  the  M-B types on this list. Then I downloaded  the test,
but  didn't  carry  it through. Too much questions.  And I had  no
motivation  to know  if I were introvert or extrovert etc.
   Sheryl,  you said to be curious why we are here. I don't know  what is
the  highest common factor ( HCF). of the group. Perhaps  it is a sort of
affinity. Or some mysterious  vibration of the list name.  Maybe  we can
be  classified  as PSY -B  types, as a new  subgroup of  the
M-B  classification.
   Seriously, I am here  because  this  is the  first list I joined,
and  the topics  ( such as metaphors and dreams) interested me highly. At
that  time I had  more free time  than now, besides I was an excited novice
in Cyber space.

Love
Anita

I

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Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:52:36 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <20001101162655.20451.qmail@web2105.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

all,

Aldon wrote,

>Is everyone here with the same purpose?  Not to get
>too caught up in symantics, but I would be tempted to
>suggest 'similar' purposes.

This isn't a quibble: the difference between the same / similar.
Nonetheless, since my purpose is mostly not like what you wrote, I wouldn't
even call it similar.

>To figure out if we are all here with the same or
>similar purposes, what those purposes might be, how we
>might react to people with other purposes.  Through
>this, coming to get a better understanding of
>ourselves, this group, all groups, the psyche and how
>it all works out in cyberspace.

I'm here to explore the experience of being here. I'm not here curious
about why other people are here, although this info -when supplied- isn't
uninteresting to me. Nor am I here to get a better understanding of the
group, although understanding may figure into my exploration. However my
exploration isn't driven by a desire to understand. Nor am I here concerned
with understanding my self, other groups, or 'how it all works out in
cyberspace'.

On the other hand, I do value highly what I learn by doing my purpose.

As for understanding the psyche...my psyche strikes me as being largely
ineffable.

***

For me there is a significant difference between intending to purposefully
understand a circumstance and the intention to purposefully explore that
circumstance. Music for me is interesting because my own intention is
sympathetic with what is of interest in my experience of the music.
(Certainly this perspective I hold is both solopsistic and circular).

The crux can be the dynamics (or other features,) of the music or it may be
discovered in the lack of single or multiple features. My own experience
suggests that no single feature is critical to my interest other than my
own intention to sympathetically explore my own experience.

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:06:21 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Anglican fiction
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Walter,

   I am glad you found it a good read.  Please feel
free to link it publicly.  I think it raises a lot of
important issues that should be thought about.

Aldon

--- Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:
> http://members.home.com/ahynes1/stf/aids.htm
>
> Good to read this.  I presume it is ok to link it
> publicly?


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Date:         Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:16:39 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

me too..

--
miles, the easily amused



> I agree with Rob.   :-)
>
> Aldon
>
> --- Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU> wrote:
> > In a group this small it's easy to get caught up in
> > fallacious circular
> > discussions where everyone is just seconding the
> > opinions of everyone
> > else.  Especially in a group where everyone is here
> > with the same
> > purpose.

sorry, couldnt resist ;-)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:29:51 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sorry to be a voice in disaccord, but I don't agree with you Rob.

> > --- Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU> wrote:
> > > In a group this small it's easy to get caught up in
> > > fallacious circular
> > > discussions where everyone is just seconding the
> > > opinions of everyone
> > > else.  Especially in a group where everyone is here
> > > with the same
> > > purpose.

This presupposes that you know why I am here, that you know my purpose.  I
have a strong sense of our differences ... well a sense of those differences
of those who I have known here for a long time.  I also have a sense of
things in common, things which are "different" with different members here.
I guess that comes because of the interactions, the dialogues over the years
which highlighted our differences.

I am also curious as to the choice of the word "fallacious."  The use of
that word presupposes that the person using the word has a certainty of
truth to which others are blind.  It does come across as spoken by a "god"
on high in judgement of the ignorant peasants mucking about in the dirt
below.

Maybe I am just a pinch too cranky tonight <smile>.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:52:23 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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  I agree with Rob, Aldon, Miles and Robert, cause it's time I agreed
with Somebody this week!
          Nancy

"Robert G. Longpre" wrote:
>
> Sorry to be a voice in disaccord, but I don't agree with you Rob.
>
> > > --- Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU> wrote:
> > > > In a group this small it's easy to get caught up in
> > > > fallacious circular
> > > > discussions where everyone is just seconding the
> > > > opinions of everyone
> > > > else.  Especially in a group where everyone is here
> > > > with the same
> > > > purpose.
>
> This presupposes that you know why I am here, that you know my purpose.  I
> have a strong sense of our differences ... well a sense of those differences
> of those who I have known here for a long time.  I also have a sense of
> things in common, things which are "different" with different members here.
> I guess that comes because of the interactions, the dialogues over the years
> which highlighted our differences.
>
> I am also curious as to the choice of the word "fallacious."  The use of
> that word presupposes that the person using the word has a certainty of
> truth to which others are blind.  It does come across as spoken by a "god"
> on high in judgement of the ignorant peasants mucking about in the dirt
> below.
>
> Maybe I am just a pinch too cranky tonight <smile>.
>
> Robert
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Nov 2000 14:01:11 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <017101c046a4$85c70f10$0101a8c0@snafu>
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All,
> me too..

Me?  Yes, OTOH no.

Walter

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:08:41 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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All,

<smile>  it is so good to see us agree/disagree so amicably.  It reminds me
of "polite" society where nothing of import is really said so as not to
cause anyone to be unfortunately stirred into a state of emotion.

lemon tea anyone?

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:30:42 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <0bd401c045fb$c5fa58c0$dc73a58e@cyberie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Robert

> lemon tea anyone?

Strong black espresso, this is cyberspace!

Now we have a little difference of taste to deal with :)

But then again, what did they drink in the Shakespearian
Comedies?  Did they have tea or coffee then?

Walter

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:58:55 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Walter, Robert, all,
  Both coffee and tea appear to have entered English culture in the
1650s, some years after Shakespeare's death.  I expect wine was the
beverage of choice and it's rather too early for wine here right now.
  Personally I don't like lemon flavor...blat...spat...
  Robert, was your week, day or evening 'a lemon'?
          Nancy

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Robert
>
> > lemon tea anyone?

> But then again, what did they drink in the Shakespearian
> Comedies?  Did they have tea or coffee then?
>
> Walter
>
> ______________
> Walter Logeman
> walter@psybernet.co.nz
> http://www.psybernet.co.nz
> Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:46:29 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,


>   Personally I don't like lemon flavor...blat...spat...
>   Robert, was your week, day or evening 'a lemon'?

Well, I love lemon pie and lemonade.  But, I don't drink almost any lemon
tea ... tea is not my favorite beverage.  I have to admit I like my coffee
black and strong with no sugar.  Occasionally I will enjoy a swiss mocha or
a cappuchino.

As for my week ... yes, it was indeed a lemon.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:35:07 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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"Robert G. Longpre" wrote:
>
> Nancy,
>
> >   Personally I don't like lemon flavor...blat...spat...
> >   Robert, was your week, day or evening 'a lemon'?
>
> Well, I love lemon pie and lemonade.

N; Whoops...I Did forget lemon meringue pie...ummmm...
>
>Robert: As for my week ... yes, it was indeed a lemon.
>
N: Ah, then I Do understand why by Friday evening you were 'up for' a
bit of 'sparing' among friends to work off the feelings that you might
otherwise have to keep tethered due to you position.
  Sorry we were all to vanilla flavored to oblige...

  (Oh, yes...and Walter, I forgot ale/mead for Shakespearean drama, at
least for the 'groundlings'.)

  Best to all, Nancy
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:10:35 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Reminds me of these words from a round
I learnt as a child, for some reason..
-  imagine these three versus
sung simultaneously, and in
discordant harmony.

>Fie, nay prithy John,
>do not quarrel mon,
>lets be merry and drink about.

>>Sir you lie ! I scorn your word
>>or any man who wears a sword,
>>for all your huff you gives a damn
>>and who cares for you !

>>>You're a rogue, you cheated me
>>>I swear before this company,
>>>sir, for all you are so stout.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Smith" <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
To: <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [P] Who is here.


> "Robert G. Longpre" wrote:
> >
> > Nancy,
> >
> > >   Personally I don't like lemon flavor...blat...spat...
> > >   Robert, was your week, day or evening 'a lemon'?
> >
> > Well, I love lemon pie and lemonade.
>
> N; Whoops...I Did forget lemon meringue pie...ummmm...
> >
> >Robert: As for my week ... yes, it was indeed a lemon.
> >
> N: Ah, then I Do understand why by Friday evening you were 'up for' a
> bit of 'sparing' among friends to work off the feelings that you might
> otherwise have to keep tethered due to you position.
>   Sorry we were all to vanilla flavored to oblige...
>
>   (Oh, yes...and Walter, I forgot ale/mead for Shakespearean drama, at
> least for the 'groundlings'.)
>
>   Best to all, Nancy
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> > here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:36:32 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Miles Thompson recited a round:
>
 for some reason..
>>> "...for all you are so stout."

Nancy wrote:
 >
> >   (Oh, yes...and Walter, I forgot ale/mead

Fibber McGee: "and stout."
     and
Molly (shouting from another room):  "What did you say??  Whose stout!"

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:19:17 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Purpose
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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fellow psyberians:

Stephen gave a similar description to my feel of Psyber-L when he said:

> I'm here to explore the experience of being here.

I am curious about each of you here, though, and wonder if your hopes or
needs or wishes are fulfilled through being here, or if any of them ever do,
or if you seek more.

Most of what I think about being here are more peripheral than answers to
*why*, and so some of the peripheral reasons I came up with:

While we are a *group* of some kind, my experience here is a strange mixture
of solitariness yet being a part of some collective, and I enjoy that strange
alchemy.  Being here is such a solitary experience!  Yet it is also a
collective experience that I could not describe it to anyone I know, RL or in
cyberspace.  One result of my own evolution here is that I would not *want*
to try to explain it or care if anyone understood it.  This experience
belongs to me uniquely, but something is being shared by other souls in other
parts of the world.

There is a creative element to being and participating in Psyber-L, an
element that nurtures and encourages me to express myself on a different
level, in a different way than anywhere else.  Sometimes I am amazed that
what or how I've expressed is understood (not the right word, but for the
lack of a better one...) by anyone else here, but I believe it is.  It is not
unlike my experiences of looking into someone's eyes at a shared RL event,
having the same thought simulataneously.

For me, there is a lack of purpose to Pyber-L, a lack of agenda, or
intention... a flowing river of thoughts that rarely emerge other places.  In
some ways, being in of Psyber-L reflects a sense I have of being a misfit in
the world, having a desire and curiosity to go places others don't.

I have a kind of awe that Psyber-L even exists.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:19:14 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The patterns that connect
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 10/31/00 4:24:34 PM Mountain Standard Time,
nsmith@NEGIA.NET writes:

> I have a
>  picture that I feel sort of represents my soul.  Can't reproduce it
>  here.  Looks a bit like a pixy half revealed, curled in a rose or
>  possibly half carved from some substance.  Definitely female.

Nancy, I think I can picture this... maybe half carved within a candle, or
soap?  Anyway my imagination suggests also some kind of light pleasing
fragrance.

Your father's pumpkin poem is a keeper and I'll add it to my pumpkin lore
collection :)

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:19:15 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The patterns that connect
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 11/01/00 5:39:17 AM Mountain Standard Time,
ahynes1@YAHOO.COM writes:

> I am getting married on Saturday, so I did not dress
>  up for Halloween when I took my kids (from the first
>  marriage) trick or treating.  They were disappointed,
>  but considering the marriage, gave me some leeway.
>
>  If I had of had the time and energy, I probably would
>  have been a left over hippie.  My beard and hair are
>  long enough, and it suits my personality.
>
>  Aldon
>

Congratulations on your marriage, Aldon, I hope all went well!  Now that you
are married, would you still be a left over hippie, or has life circumstance
change also resulted in other changes in yourself?

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:13:27 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: The patterns that connect
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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  See below:

Sheryl Garner wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/31/00 4:24:34 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> nsmith@NEGIA.NET writes:
>
> > I have a
> >  picture that I feel sort of represents my soul.  Can't reproduce it
> >  here.  Looks a bit like a pixy half revealed, curled in a rose or
> >  possibly half carved from some substance.  Definitely female.
>
> Nancy, I think I can picture this... maybe half carved within a candle, or
> soap?  Anyway my imagination suggests also some kind of light pleasing
> fragrance.

  I like your additions very much, Sheryl.  The figure illuminated
variously light and dark by candle glow with a faint scent of carnation
-- sweet, but spicy.

  Anyone else want to share imaginatively how their soul might be
represented?

     Best, Nancy
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:44:10 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <f7.459b39e.2739bdc5@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sheryl

Your posts were a pleasure to receive just now. Yes, solitary in
a group.  There is so much talk of Virtual Community - and I do
like community & "belong" to one - but this is not "community" -
a community is so *social* whereas here we are more psychological
- or at least attuned to the psyche, whatever she is!

I think our emphasis on *experiential* - so simple yet so rare is
important.  Here, now what do we experience?  We notice the
immeasurable textures of the mood, the spontaneous associations
arising, not just from within, but in response to *being here* -
this is communion - loving. This feel I am, in a patient group...
listening to our silence... which means the group is always
there, a comforting silence.


> > I'm here to explore the experience of being here.

Sheryl, Stephen, yes.

> I am curious about each of you here, though, and wonder if your hopes or
> needs or wishes are fulfilled through being here, or if any of them ever do,
> or if you seek more.

I am accepting of this group, and seek no more from it and am
reluctant to be active, to disturb the life itself as it unfolds.
Yet I do seek more and look for it and sometimes find bits here
and there.

At present I am doing a lot of work for Groupsense, in corporate
and educational settings.  To me it *is* psychological work in
cyberspace. At GroupSense we have developed something that we are
calling the GroupSense Way - (with a reference to the Way of the
Samurai - from the movie Ghost Dog - my favorite this year!) This
Way is embryonic, in development, we are still creating and
discovering it. It is a lonely job.  Dan & I grasp immaturely at
the Way, I'd like to share and learn from others, and this is not
really the place... yet... some people here might love all that.

Similarly I have a geeky bent.  I like to discuss servers and OSs
etc.  But not in a tech forum... these are tools that shape our
being...  but is seems quite unpsyber-L.  Another psyber wish is
for more discussion about being an online therapist.

I find it hard to have time for all that i want and love the
quiet of our contemplations here - and would not wish to disturb
them too much with more specialised and theoretical stuff.


> For me, there is a lack of purpose to Pyber-L, a lack of agenda, or
> intention... a flowing river of thoughts that rarely emerge other places.  In
> some ways, being in of Psyber-L reflects a sense I have of being a misfit in
> the world, having a desire and curiosity to go places others don't.
>
> I have a kind of awe that Psyber-L even exists.

I see what makes my other things less Psyber-L... they are more
about the world, being in it, how to be in it... here it is not
about how, but simply being.


Walter
______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:10:55 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <0bc801c045f6$5942df40$dc73a58e@cyberie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Fallicious means prone to fallacy.  A falacy can be a statement or an
argument based on an invalid inference.  An inference is a logical
conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true.  If the
assumptions among the group are similar, the inferences will be as well,
and lead to circular arguments where no new data is interjected and
nothing old is questioned to any depth.

Is this happening here?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

A bit of discord often brings the harder or more contested edges of
certain concepts to light.

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Robert G. Longpre wrote:

> I am also curious as to the choice of the word "fallacious."  The use of
> that word presupposes that the person using the word has a certainty of
> truth to which others are blind.  It does come across as spoken by a "god"
> on high in judgement of the ignorant peasants mucking about in the dirt
> below.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:37:37 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <7hsg0tsmfdi44ihktdso0sgc0vfuga5g2j@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Walter Logeman wrote:

> > I have a kind of awe that Psyber-L even exists.
>
> I see what makes my other things less Psyber-L... they are more
> about the world, being in it, how to be in it... here it is not
> about how, but simply being.

This is another thing that I notice here.  I'm writing briefly because
I'm busy, but don't think I'm saying this off the cuff.  I get the
feeling sometimes here like I'm among a group of philosophers who are so
caught up in the wonder of the concept of philosophy that they think of
nothing else, and can't be grounded.  PSYBER-L was created to evaluate
something, no?  Why does it seem like it's always looking right back at
itself?

The irony that I'm doing the exact same thing with this post isn't lost
on me, by the way.  :-)

Rob

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:22:43 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011081334120.13047-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Rob

>  PSYBER-L was created to evaluate
> something, no?

What it was created for, and what it is are inter-rellated but
not the same.  I think it is "on-topic", and this yields
surprising results.  I will quote from the description doc -
which is the statement about its purpose, which is important. I
mean if you go to a particular movie, and they play another one
that would be wrong.

|  = Purpose =
|
|  The purpose of Psyber-L is to learn experientially about the
|  psyche in cyberspace. As all online discussion contributes to the
|  unfolding of the psyche a wide range of topics is suitable.

I think we "look at ourselves" because of that word
"experiential" - we are not theorising or reporting on other
situations - that would be OK, but experiential is a powerful
notion. We read and experience these lines and what is between
them NOW.

|  Participants are encouraged to make posts about the process and
|  how the psyche manifests and can be nurtured in cyberspace. The
|  comment and learning is not kept separate from the discussion, it
|  forms an integral part of it.

When you say we are here to evaluate something, the something is
US - our ever evolving moment of asynchronous meeting. That is
the stated purpose.

> Why does it seem like it's always looking right back at
> itself?

So that we do that makes some sense, no?

Rob,

I sense you are frustrated with that... with this group.  Drawn
to it but want it to be more edgy, vital alive? Fine wishes.

A moment to think about this then, the next lines in the purpose
statement:

|  The list is an environment in which its participants can
|  experiment and learn from experience about the scope of online
|  interaction for ethical psychological depth work.  Psyber-L is
|  forum for individual experiential research, it is requested that
|  the list is not used for academic or other research.

I think our various "games", the different configurations of the
list, the attempts to get something happening are all part of
this experiment.

Miles has considered leading us in an online scripted drama!  But
that is hard to do when you are a busy man!  Miles where are you
on that?

I have been thinking about it.  I thought it would be interesting
to allocate the parts of a Shakespeare play to people, and then
have them post the lines, one speech at a time in turn. Then in
separate posts, using the same thread, everyone could comment -
analyse theorise, expound and generally make use of the "surplus
reality" that exists on line....

I digress...

Rob, I guess you have started some form of intervention...
experiment by stating your hypothesis we are a bunch of followers
(my words) and that we could do with a bit more individuation (my
words).  Can you take that further - without *artificially*
starting a fight of some sort.


Walter

~~~


[rest of the purpose statement appended]

|  To give a sense of the intended direction of the discussions,
|  here is a sampling of topics that have been, and continue to be
|  discussed on the list.  There is a continued focus on how these
|  psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace:
|
|          depth psychology
|          leadership in communication networks
|          creating communication environments
|          gender issues
|          imagination
|          metaphors
|          archetypes
|          dreams
|          myths
|          personal identity
|          psychotherapy
|          the unconscious
|          group dynamics.
|
|  Etiquette, ethos and ethics of the list have an impact on the
|  psychological nature of it, and hence are suitable topics for
|  discussion in the list.  Below in the Information section of this
|  file you will find links to the key people and ideas that inspire
|  the work of this list.  These files are mentioned to give you a
|  sense of the scope of Psyber-L.
|

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:24:22 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      logic
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011081305280.13047-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Rob writes,

>Fallicious means prone to fallacy.

A fallacious definition, Rob: in other words, erroneous, incorrect.
*Fallacious* has nothing to do with the tendency toward fallacy, or error.
It simply means: "containing or based in a fallacy; or: deceptive in
meaning or appearance".

An argument, for example, is fallacious when it is based in, or contains, a
fallacy. A fallacy, with respect to an argument, is a mistake in reasoning,
and may refer to a formal (i.e. having to do with the logical structure
and/or the constituent contents of a logical structure; the most common
class of fallacy are mistakes of deductive logic,) or informal errors, the
latter exemplified by superficially persuasive arguments defeated by
non-rational appeals.

To help us out, you offer the following,

"If the assumptions among the group are similar, the inferences will be as
well, [snip]

This is an example of both a formal and an informal fallacy. Formally
viewed, "If the assumptions among the group are similar, the inferences
will be as well" is a clear statement of premise and conclusion, albeit
bereft of any kind of conjunctive or otherwise allowable propositional
argument, deductive or inductive. (Your statement implies a missing
inductive argument.)

'Similar assumptions result in similar inferences' is clearly superficially
appealing, yet, isn't proved, either as a matter of logical argument, (an
argument not provided,) or, a matter of more commonsensical reasoning,
since, quite evidently, the counter example is simply: similar assumptions
may, *or may not*, result in similar inferences. For example, I would be
very surprised to learn that those of us who are or have been married had
never experienced similar assumptions leading to different inferences.

In other words, your statement begs the question; really several questions!

(The second part: "and lead to circular arguments where no new data is
interjected and nothing old is questioned to any depth." doesn't make any
sense to me at all, except as a possible expression of your experience in
these matters.)

***

This problem may get sorted out if we concern ourselves with the greater
burden placed upon an exacting premise, (or equivalent premises,) instead
of the lesser burden placed upon an assumption, or assumptions, (be they
similar or equivalent to each other or not).

However, it may be quite difficult to extrude such premises out of the
field of assumptions  active here. The first step would be to try to do so,
at which point we could attempt to structure a sound propositional
argument; perhaps even, a conclusive one.

***

This reminds me of a very short story:

A couple goes into a chinese restaurant. They have their dog with them. The
dog is very hungry. The couple doesn't speak chinese and the waiter doesn't
speak english. But, the couple, by making eating gestures, get across to
the waiter that they wish the dog to be fed. The waiter nods his head in
understanding and takes the dog to the kitchen. A half hour later he brings
a platter to the table.

Roast doggie.

***

regards to all,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:56:11 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: The patterns that connect
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I am beginning to get the impression of this list as a
jazz musician blowing his sounds in a cafe where the
tables have jack-o-lanterns with candles inside that
have the shape of a pixy carved into them....

Aldon


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:07:37 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: The patterns that connect
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Sheryl et al -
   The wedding went wonderfully.  Actually, there were
two weddings, an online wedding and a face to face
wedding.  The log of the online wedding is at
members.home.com/ahynes1/wedding/weddinglog.txt
   It was a little whimsical, but allowed friends from
around the world to participate.
   As to becoming less of a left over hippie, it
probably is moving me more in the opposite direction.
For example, we stayed at a Sauna Bed and Breakfast in
Maine during part of our brief honeymoon.  It was a
good hippie haven.

Aldon
--- Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM> wrote:
>
> Congratulations on your marriage, Aldon, I hope all
> went well!  Now that you
> are married, would you still be a left over hippie,
> or has life circumstance
> change also resulted in other changes in yourself?
>
> Sheryl



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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:09:59 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      pumpkins and pixies
In-Reply-To:  <20001110155611.25744.qmail@web2105.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Aldon writes,

>I am beginning to get the impression of this list as a
>jazz musician blowing his sounds in a cafe where the
>tables have jack-o-lanterns with candles inside that
>have the shape of a pixy carved into them....

That's a great image! You leave room for any and all to imagine what the
persons sitting at those tables look like. Or, one could imagine the
musician blowing to an empty room, albeit one illuminated by the orange
glow of the jack-o-lanterns.

You tickled my own association. It welled up with the scene of a jazz club
filled with your tables, the orange glow, and populated with patrons in
various costumes.

Evokes thoughts about persona, disguise, improv, entertainment, hermetic
spaces and the trickster.

A rich, 'dreamlike' picture!

***

best to all,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:17:42 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011081305280.13047-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Rob you wrote:

>
>A bit of discord often brings the harder or more contested edges of
>certain concepts to light.
>
>--
I'm curious. Given that "experiencial" is a key to the group here, Am
I to assume that since joining the list your experienceconclusion of
what Psyber-L appears is a group of lemmings?  Or that you draw a
conclusion from the apparent civility? My experience of being here
over a few years is that the group dynamic ebbs and flows...at
various times we have had very distinctivedifferent responses (some
contested vigorously) given the diversity of the group
(notwithstanding the artificiality (my bias) of a plethora of
INFPs)...Of particular interest to me and an aspect of which I'm most
aware, is that people are from various parts of the world which I
haven't experienced. I tend to hold this as an overarching assumption
of my experience here. Given this, I can't assume anyone's
assumptions.

Regards,

Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:17:50 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011081334120.13047-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Rob wrote:

>"This is another thing that I notice here.  I'm writing briefly because
>I'm busy, but don't think I'm saying this off the cuff.  I get the
>feeling sometimes here like I'm among a group of philosophers who are so
>caught up in the wonder of the concept of philosophy that they think of
>nothing else, and can't be grounded.  PSYBER-L was created to evaluate
>something, no?  Why does it seem like it's always looking right back at
>itself?"

>I would take issue, Rob, with your equating of "us" as "a group of
>philosophers...and can't be grounded"...lots of assumptions flying
>around here, tho I see that this is your experience of being
>here...This venue gives me an opportunity to interactexperience in a
>different way than I do with other aspects of my life...Psyber-L
>adds to the quality of my life...your comment as I have received it
>takes my interaction in Psyber-L and projects it into the totality
>of my life...thereby reducing my life's quality not to mention the
>assumptions that are then drawn about how I live my life ("group of
>philosophers who are so
caught up in the wonder of the concept of philosophy that they think
of nothing else...")...just as I belong to a  papermaking group
on-line which enhances my life as an artist, Psyber-L provides food
for thought and experience I would otherwise not have...life
enhancing...ironically I feel very grounded here...

Judith

>
>The irony that I'm doing the exact same thing with this post isn't lost
>on me, by the way.  :-)
>
>Rob
>
>--
>Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:42:02 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Casting roles.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I like this idea and would like to expand on it in one
way.  Part of my interest is who we form impressions
of others online and how we choose to present
ourselves online.  There have been assorted
discussions about personality types.  Perhaps this can
be shifted around a little bit.

If you were to cast people here, what role would you
give them?

Who gets to be Puck?
Who gets to be Iago?
etc?

Another take on it is
What role would you give to Walter?
to Stephen?
etc?

And then of course the interesting questions are why
and how they match our own expectations.


--- Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:
> I have been thinking about it.  I thought it would
> be interesting
> to allocate the parts of a Shakespeare play to
> people, and then
> have them post the lines, one speech at a time in
> turn. Then in
> separate posts, using the same thread, everyone
> could comment -
> analyse theorise, expound and generally make use of
> the "surplus
> reality" that exists on line....



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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:41:44 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Fw: [P] Casting roles.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 sounds great!!

 im off to samoa for two weeks break (having finished
 6 months mad panic on my project at work)
 so i wont be around to complicate things.,..

 do good things, i look forward to seeing what happens

 i have to apologise, again - arrghh miles the unfinisher -
 for leaving this thread hanging, with the ball in my
 court some time ago..

 i had many thoughts, and as usual that leads to
 technology i wanted to build to support it..
 and thus - from that, a need for time to build,
 and that, in the last 6 months has been impossible
 to find.. so. yeah... thats my apology

 but ignore me , i hope you do good stuff

 i'll be the audience!


 -=- miles

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:29:30 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Casting roles.
In-Reply-To:  <003801c04c06$a8792400$6137fea9@snafu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Miles, Aldon, all

Aldon, I like the idea of using Shakespeare to name types.  Works better
for me than the initials - Anita, what do you think?

I go on to respond to Miles:

Heheheh

> sounds great!!

Yes it does, and i am pleased that your idea has evolved a bit, but you are
assuming it is all happening.  We are still dreaming I think.

>  im off to samoa for two weeks break (having finished
>  6 months mad panic on my project at work)
>  so i wont be around to complicate things.,..
>
>  do good things, i look forward to seeing what happens

Two weeks holiday? Sounds great too.

>  i have to apologise, again - arrghh miles the unfinisher -
>  for leaving this thread hanging, with the ball in my
>  court some time ago..

Unfinisher?  unfinisher?  Now who is an unfinisher in Shakespeare?  An
unfinisher is a sort of dreamer by another name, i prefer dreamer... on
this occasion inspiration...


>  i had many thoughts, and as usual that leads to
>  technology i wanted to build to support it..
>  and thus - from that, a need for time to build,
>  and that, in the last 6 months has been impossible
>  to find.. so. yeah... thats my apology

Interesting.  In my case i dream about using simple technology like this
list.  However i realise that people do not use it so that there are
definite threads, so we can see what is said by the characters and what is
said bey the audience etc.  After a while there is just a jumble of "I
thought that was you speaking as Puck to Bottom but it was only you
commenting to blah blah blah."  So my dreaming is not about technology
quite in the way you do, but ... as we do in GroupSense about the plan and
the design.

I think of such things as a special email group for the project,
*moderated* - in the sense of vetted posts to see they are well formed.  Of
having people sub with as their name "Puck" ... and really designing the
format well. Maybe i am too fenikity, but i dont think so.  I think this
has the makings of a marvelous approach, but it needs *planning & design*.

However, like you Miles I can't  give it the time... here is Summer coming,
Christmas and family and tramping as well as finishing all the years
commitments.... Arhhh!

>  but ignore me , i hope you do good stuff
>
>  i'll be the audience!

Who will be the director, producer, set designer, cleaner, makeup artist,
costume designer, casting agency.... an they all need "personal
assistants!"

Now that is needed to make it *WORK*

However we may just be here to *play* and that is fun, and the mess is
fine.


walter
______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:17:19 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <v04210108b631f76e6252@[207.54.160.121]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Perhaps it's that I don't consider something to be adqeuately thought
out until there is one or more people on the side thoroughly critizing
it, and one or more on the other side of the issue adding in more facts
and support until everyone can make their decision.

But by and large this is not a group to promote this, so some of my
analogies in the last few days have been misplaced.

While I won't go so far as to assume assumtions anymore, I do miss the
vigorous contests.

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, JB wrote:

> I'm curious. Given that "experiencial" is a key to the group here, Am
> I to assume that since joining the list your experienceconclusion of
> what Psyber-L appears is a group of lemmings?  Or that you draw a
> conclusion from the apparent civility? My experience of being here
> over a few years is that the group dynamic ebbs and flows...at
> various times we have had very distinctivedifferent responses (some
> contested vigorously) given the diversity of the group
> (notwithstanding the artificiality (my bias) of a plethora of
> INFPs)...Of particular interest to me and an aspect of which I'm most
> aware, is that people are from various parts of the world which I
> haven't experienced. I tend to hold this as an overarching assumption
> of my experience here. Given this, I can't assume anyone's
> assumptions.
>
> Regards,
>
> Judith
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:22:06 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <v04210109b6320473716f@[207.54.160.121]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Judith,

As far as I interact with you, PSYBER-L is the only facet.  And as far
as most of you know, for me it's PSYBER-L and perhaps my overwhelming
web page.  But I wouldn't dare generalize that to be the sum of your
existence-- just the portion as far as I can see it.

How does it ground you in particular?

Rob

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, JB wrote:

> >Rob wrote:
>
> >"This is another thing that I notice here.  I'm writing briefly because
> >I'm busy, but don't think I'm saying this off the cuff.  I get the
> >feeling sometimes here like I'm among a group of philosophers who are so
> >caught up in the wonder of the concept of philosophy that they think of
> >nothing else, and can't be grounded.  PSYBER-L was created to evaluate
> >something, no?  Why does it seem like it's always looking right back at
> >itself?"
>
> >I would take issue, Rob, with your equating of "us" as "a group of
> >philosophers...and can't be grounded"...lots of assumptions flying
> >around here, tho I see that this is your experience of being
> >here...This venue gives me an opportunity to interactexperience in a
> >different way than I do with other aspects of my life...Psyber-L
> >adds to the quality of my life...your comment as I have received it
> >takes my interaction in Psyber-L and projects it into the totality
> >of my life...thereby reducing my life's quality not to mention the
> >assumptions that are then drawn about how I live my life ("group of
> >philosophers who are so
> caught up in the wonder of the concept of philosophy that they think
> of nothing else...")...just as I belong to a  papermaking group
> on-line which enhances my life as an artist, Psyber-L provides food
> for thought and experience I would otherwise not have...life
> enhancing...ironically I feel very grounded here...
>
> Judith
>
> >
> >The irony that I'm doing the exact same thing with this post isn't lost
> >on me, by the way.  :-)
> >
> >Rob
> >
> >--
> >Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/
> >
> >____________________________________________________________
> >Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> >here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:25:48 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: logic
In-Reply-To:  <p04330100b62fc7471a7e@[207.54.160.213]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I'm glad to see you've taken up the torch to argue with me, and so
rationally, but I got lost in your answer.  Are you talking about the
field of assumptions within my argument or the group at large?  In
either case, what are they (in your eyes).  There are a lot of
perspectives, but perspectives can't be argued, only shared.

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Stephen Calhoun wrote:

> This problem may get sorted out if we concern ourselves with the greater
> burden placed upon an exacting premise, (or equivalent premises,) instead
> of the lesser burden placed upon an assumption, or assumptions, (be they
> similar or equivalent to each other or not).
>
> However, it may be quite difficult to extrude such premises out of the
> field of assumptions  active here. The first step would be to try to do so,
> at which point we could attempt to structure a sound propositional
> argument; perhaps even, a conclusive one.
>
> ***
>
> This reminds me of a very short story:
>
> A couple goes into a chinese restaurant. They have their dog with them. The
> dog is very hungry. The couple doesn't speak chinese and the waiter doesn't
> speak english. But, the couple, by making eating gestures, get across to
> the waiter that they wish the dog to be fed. The waiter nods his head in
> understanding and takes the dog to the kitchen. A half hour later he brings
> a platter to the table.
>
> Roast doggie.
>
> ***
>
> regards to all,
>
> Stephen
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:31:05 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <vffj0tshc2avtcag28l6ir9s6m21om0v14@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Walter Logeman wrote:

> I think we "look at ourselves" because of that word "experiential" -
> we are not theorising or reporting on other situations - that would
> be OK, but experiential is a powerful notion. We read and experience
> these lines and what is between them NOW.
>
> When you say we are here to evaluate something, the something is
> US - our ever evolving moment of asynchronous meeting. That is
> the stated purpose.
>
> So that we do that makes some sense, no?

Strong point.  I'm not sure why that makes me feel disconcerted here.

> I sense you are frustrated with that... with this group.  Drawn
> to it but want it to be more edgy, vital alive? Fine wishes.

I want the final sum of the efforts and keystrokes that I put into it be
more visible and longer lasting.  I'm not sure how.

> I think our various "games", the different configurations of the
> list, the attempts to get something happening are all part of
> this experiment.

I can never seemto stick with the games long enough to keep
playing.  There seems to be a certain activation energy involved that
would make me feel like I was making a worthwhile response that I can
never seem to get up to.

> Miles has considered leading us in an online scripted drama!  But
> that is hard to do when you are a busy man!  Miles where are you
> on that?

And I'm sure I'd get lost in all the preparations for the post, or get
so busy that I'd get too far behind to take the whole experience in as
it was unfolding, just like I'm responding to a glut of messages all at
once because I haven't had an opportunity before this moment.

> Rob, I guess you have started some form of intervention...
> experiment by stating your hypothesis we are a bunch of followers
> (my words) and that we could do with a bit more individuation (my
> words).  Can you take that further - without *artificially*
> starting a fight of some sort.

I think Stephen was ready to take me up on that, but it was difficult to
read through his response for some reason.  I didn't get much out of it
in response to my thoughts.

Rob

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:19:42 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: logic
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011141723110.21736-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Rob,

Point of clarification: your original statement wasn't set up as an
argument in a formal sense although it implied (at least,) a hypothesis in
that you wrote: "If the assumptions among the group are similar, the
inferences will be as well".

However, because you defined <fallacious> incorrectly, your implicit
hypothesis provided a good example to explore.

***

Today you write,

"Are you talking about the field of assumptions within my argument or the
group at large?  In either case, what are they (in your eyes).  There are a
lot of perspectives, but perspectives can't be argued, only shared."

Any time one casts a group in terms of a singular assumption (or set of
such assumptions) held by the group, one is only correct if it is actually
the case. Otherwise the assumption that a group is characterized by
assumptions-held-in-common, (really an attribution of 'group-think') may
turn out to be a projection upon the group.

This kind of projection happens all the time. I would myself suppose from
my own experience that after initially joining a group my developing
comprehension of the group's 'character' begins with lots of
over-generalized projections and judgements and only over time does the
illusory unity of a group start to break up into a more realistic
comprehension of the group's diversity/multiplicity.

The sharing of perspectives is key.

Are their commonly-held assumptions here? Is "perspectives can be shared"
an assumption of every participant?

***

Does joining a group reveal a paradox? On one hand the person coming into
the group may wish to become part of the group and at the same time sustain
a critical tension defined by their assertion (or position,) of being not
part of the group. I'd go further to wonder about the natural tendency to
preserve our distinctiveness against the apparent 'unity' of a group.

Or, we may happen upon a group in which individuality is so submerged,
(true group-think,) that we understand as an outsider that to truly join
the group our own individuality may have to also be submerged.

***

In any case, I don't have any experience -over five+ years- of group think
here in Psyber-L, nor do I experience assumptions here being so similar
that it could be logically argued that some or certain resulting inferences
will tend to be similar.

It had not occurred to me to investigate this possibility until you brought
it, (albeit as a generalization and not, as far as I interpret your
statement, as an observation of this particular group,) up.

Well, as usual this should be clear as mud. <;-)

***

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:24:58 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hmmm....  My associations to this are the issues of
confrontation verses collaboration, which produces a
more effective result.  This group feels more
collaborative than confrontational, which feels good
to me....

Now, is it possible for critical analysis to take
place in a non-confrontational way?  It feels like
this can happen with an evolution of an idea.

Enough of my ramblings for the moment.

Aldon


--- Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU> wrote:
> Perhaps it's that I don't consider something to be
> adqeuately thought
> out until there is one or more people on the side
> thoroughly critizing
> it, and one or more on the other side of the issue
> adding in more facts
> and support until everyone can make their decision.
>
> But by and large this is not a group to promote
> this, so some of my
> analogies in the last few days have been misplaced.
>
> While I won't go so far as to assume assumtions
> anymore, I do miss the
> vigorous contests.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:42:49 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <20001115202458.13412.qmail@web2105.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Could an idea be formed and analyzed in a collaborative effort?  Maybe.

Would I consider the results of such an effort to be reliable?  Probably
not.

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Aldon Hynes wrote:

> Now, is it possible for critical analysis to take place in a
> non-confrontational way?  It feels like this can happen with an
> evolution of an idea.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:50:45 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      collaboration
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011151841330.10633-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Rob writes,

>Could an idea be formed and analyzed in a collaborative effort?  Maybe.
>
>Would I consider the results of such an effort to be reliable?  Probably
>not.
>
>--
>Rob Carlson

Would you wish to explore this skepticism further? Narrowly, an unsound
result should not be relied upon, but in what way does collaboration
mitigate the effort to effect a sound result?

***

It seems to me one of the bedrocks of scientific methodology is the
collaborative effort. No doubt for science, as well as other disciplines,
idea formation and analysis are no less crucial to this kind of focused
effort.

Since objective analysis by many (alternately: more than one,) is the
essence of the repeatability so essential to the scientific method, in the
final run, isn't this redundant analysis -by definition- a collaboration?

Just a few questions to fuel the competition of ideas here!

***

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:29:22 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: collaboration
In-Reply-To:  <p04330100b638eaca7172@[207.54.160.185]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Stephen Calhoun wrote:

> It seems to me one of the bedrocks of scientific methodology is the
> collaborative effort. No doubt for science, as well as other disciplines,
> idea formation and analysis are no less crucial to this kind of focused
> effort.

I've always considered the peer review process of science to be a very--
not combative-- but argumentative part of the process.  The end result
seems collaborative, but I see a lot of publication as fishing for
other, mostly countering, opinions and information.

> Since objective analysis by many (alternately: more than one,) is the
> essence of the repeatability so essential to the scientific method, in the
> final run, isn't this redundant analysis -by definition- a collaboration?

I think I might be agreeing with you, in so many words.

Rob

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Nov 2000 02:29:17 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011141726090.21736-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rob

> I want the final sum of the efforts and keystrokes that I put into it be
> more visible and longer lasting.  I'm not sure how.

Do you want to be a *net celebrity*?

I sometimes see people I put in that category and feel envy.
Maybe that is a bit neurotic.  I admire people who are so fine in
their niche that they stand out. I  *admire* the actual skill...
it still evokes some envy, a frustration that my niche is so
esoteric, small, invisible, complex that i can barely grasp it.

How could it be done... be more visible and longer lasting?

(we are looking at archiving options - hehehe)


Walter



______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:56:59 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <3rn71tgq2anfjpio19jm769j7he579sv2k@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Walter Logeman wrote:

> Do you want to be a *net celebrity*?

My friends often are.  I get kind of envious.  Take Dale Ghent:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,33476,00.html

> I sometimes see people I put in that category and feel envy.
> Maybe that is a bit neurotic.  I admire people who are so fine in
> their niche that they stand out. I  *admire* the actual skill...
> it still evokes some envy, a frustration that my niche is so
> esoteric, small, invisible, complex that i can barely grasp it.

Nah, it's like any other sort of star fandom.  We're just moving from
Hollywood to Silicon Valley to look for the source of our idols.

At least more people are being respected for their hard work and
accomplishments rather than being in the right place/time or having a
natually beautiful face or body.

Rob

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:52:02 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      celebrity
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011171054220.4718-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

all,

For what it's worth, accomplishments which resonate with me earn my
admiration, but, more often than not, those whom I admire are not likely to
ever obtain celebrity. Much of the accomplishment I resonate to happens far
away from the mainstream and doesn't have the drive to obtain celebrity as
a factor.

The trap -as I see it- is to admire someone simply because they've obtained
celebrity.

And, I naturally keep my admiration closer to respect than idolization. In
fact, I don't really know what it would to idolize someone.

I indulge myself an opinion on such a trivial matter!

***

best to all,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:23:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: celebrity
In-Reply-To:  <p04330100b63b10ea3c52@[207.54.160.109]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

The cyberspace celebrities, historically pretty far from the mainstream,
aren't so far away anymore now that cyberspace has moved closer to
everyone.  Who doesn't know Bill Gates?

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Stephen Calhoun wrote:

> For what it's worth, accomplishments which resonate with me earn my
> admiration, but, more often than not, those whom I admire are not likely to
> ever obtain celebrity. Much of the accomplishment I resonate to happens far
> away from the mainstream and doesn't have the drive to obtain celebrity as
> a factor.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:04:35 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Who is hererreeee...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

          HAPPY THANKSGIVING !!!!   (author unknown)

When I was a young turkey, new to the coop,
My big brother Mike took me out on the stoop,
Then he sat me down, and he spoke real slow,
And he told me there was something that I had to know;
His look and his tone I will always remember,
When he told me of the horrors of... Black November;

"Come about August, now listen to me,
Each day you'll get six meals instead of just three,
"And soon you'll be thick, where once you were thin,
And you'll grow a big rubbery thing under your chin;
"And then one morning, when you're warm in your bed,
In'll burst the farmer's wife, and hack off your head;
"Then she'll pluck out all your feathers so you're bald'n pink,
And scoop out all your insides and leave ya lyin' in the sink;
"And then comes the worst part" he said not bluffing,
"She'll spread your cheeks and pack your rear with stuffing".
Well, the rest of his words were too grim to repeat,

I sat on the stoop like a winged piece of meat,
And decided on the spot that to avoid being cooked,
I'd have to lay low and remain overlooked;
I began a new diet of nuts and granola,
High-roughage salads, juice and diet cola;
And as they ate pastries, chocolates and crepes,
I stayed in my room doing Jane Fonda tapes;
I maintained my weight of two pounds and a half,
And tried not to notice when the bigger birds laughed;
But 'twas I who was laughing, under my breath,
As they chomped and they chewed, ever closer to death;
And sure enough when Black November rolled around,
I was the last turkey left in the entire compound.

So now I'm a pet in the farmer's wife's lap;
I haven't a worry, so I eat and I nap;
She held me today, while sewing and humming,
And smiled at me and said "Christmas is coming...."



(Sorry...  Guess the silence is 'getting to' me.  Nancy)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:27:04 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011141720430.21736-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Rob,

Been out of commission, ill, for days...

I'm been thinking about how to answer your question about
grounding...had to follow the context based on your original
"philosopher" observation...

It is not that I feel grounded "here" but grounded in my life and
"here" is a thread in my life weave...I often am curious at comments
which make very clear a delineation between cyber life and ftf
life...It never occurs to me that the people here are not in my life
or that the interactions here are unlike other interactions...the
analyticsesearchers have been very busy dissecting the cyber
experience vis a vis real life...

Well, it's snowing and a pair of cardinals just flew into my yard
reminding me it's time to load up on bird seed.

Blessings,
Judith

>Judith,
>
>As far as I interact with you, PSYBER-L is the only facet.  And as far
>as most of you know, for me it's PSYBER-L and perhaps my overwhelming
>web page.  But I wouldn't dare generalize that to be the sum of your
>existence-- just the portion as far as I can see it.
>
>How does it ground you in particular?
>
>Rob
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Nov 2000 06:07:21 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Casting roles.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter, all

I could start my responding by first reading
everything.. which maybe i should

but if I do that, I do believe, I may
never even get started

so..


>Walter:
> Interesting.  In my case i dream about using simple technology like this
> list.  However

<snip>
>  After a while there is just a jumble of "I
> thought that was you speaking as Puck to Bottom but it was only you
> commenting to blah blah blah."  So my dreaming is not about technology
> quite in the way you do...

well,, see but heres the thing,

it seems to me our concern is the same thing,

the danger of jumble

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Nov 2000 06:21:42 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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> Now, is it possible for critical analysis to take
> place in a non-confrontational way?  It feels like
> this can happen with an evolution of an idea.

during the evolution

yeah..

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Nov 2000 13:15:29 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: The Cola Mail System
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <006901c056eb$08c95750$6137fea9@snafu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, Miles Thompson wrote:

> > Now, is it possible for critical analysis to take
> > place in a non-confrontational way?  It feels like
> > this can happen with an evolution of an idea.
>
> during the evolution
> yeah..

Once the idea has solidified in the minds of the participants, it
can't be non-confrontational anymore?

--
Rob Carlson  rob@epistolary.org  http://epistolary.org/rob/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:10:19 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Collaboration, confrontation and conflict
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011251314440.29606-100000@xenon.elemental.org>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Rob

was - Re: [P] Who is here.

> Once the idea has solidified in the minds of the participants, it
> can't be non-confrontational anymore?

Probably not.  I think of confrontation as "naming a difference",
In counselling work we need to do it all the time... "you look
sad, but you tell me all is well" etc.  Or, last week you said
this now you say that.

Confrontation is different from accusation, blame, name calling
etc.

Collaboration involves differences of opinion and resolving them
or living with them in some way. Getting right to the core of
difference can lead into the hot zones... probably needs to.

I think where i am heading is that I like conversation, that goes
somewhere.  That means going into the heat but not burning up in
flames.  That takes some skill.

Of course some people just enjoy the endless battle - easy to
find - abortion discussions etc.

Hmmm...

Walter

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
Weblog: http://www.psybernet.co.nz/weblog/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:49:28 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Anglican fiction
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Aldon, Walter, all,
  Thanks to your 'now wife' (how's married life?), Aldon.  I've read
through most of this series.  It's good background for my current
Episcopal
integrative endeavor.  I particular enjoyed the 5th, Mystical Paths, and
was interested to see the main characters (clergy included) agree
to the hidding of a dead body from the police.  It reminded me of what
some have referred to as the 'amorality of the Self'.  I would regard it
more as a placing Situational Ethics above current procedural law.
Fraid I sort of bogged down in the 6th vol., but perhaps by then the
series had already done what it could for me.

  Walter,  I gave the first two volumes of the Robertson Davies Deptford
trilogy a try.  Regretfully this bait didn't catch this fish at this
time, not even the 2nd one, the Manticore, which is probably the one
which contains the Jungian analysis (but then I get pretty bored when I
dip into the tapes from my Own analysis!)
   From what I can remember of what you told us on list of your own
early wanders, I think I see a parallel which helps me understand why
these books would interest you.  My own issues apparently just aren't
quite close enough (but then I'm not sure you mentioned these books
especially in regard to the above subject title.)

  Thanks to both for your suggestions.  Any more from anyone?

  Blessings, Nancy

Aldon Hynes wrote:
>
> My fiancee recommends any book by Susan Howitch.  She
> has an "Anglican Church Series".  _Glittering Images_
> is the first of the series.  Also, Gail Godwin's
> Evensong is probably a good starting point.
>
> Aldon
>
> --- Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET> wrote:
> > The Archivist by Martha Cooley:
> >
> >  I applaud anyone finding a book of serious fiction
> > they can enjoy in depth and take full responsibility
> > for my own reaction.
> >   Mostly I don't read fiction except when awaiting
> > sleep and then it tend to be light or 'cosy' murder
> > mysteries which usually have women sleuths and a dog
> > or two.
> >   Books of serious, psychological betrayal scare me
> > silly.  Too close to
> > home, I guess.  Can't even watch
> > the movie Gaslight.
> >   I'd like to find a sensible novel about Episcopal
> > missionary work, as I'm trying to weave some
> > emotional
> > treads between my local Episcopal pastor's
> > feeling/convictions about
> > Christ and the connection I developed between myself
> > and Jung's concept
> > of the Self (ie representation of the divine within
> > each of us.)
> >   Any suggestions?
> >
> > Walter, would you care to elaborate beyond the one
> > example as to what
> > you mean by "psyber-lish"?  Like the "Cocktail
> > Party" on a deeper level
> > perhaps?  Or...?
> >
> >
> > Walter Logeman wrote:
> > >
> > > Nancy, all
> > >
> > > > wouldn't it be less painful to hit  yourself
> > with a hammer
> > > > than to read such a book?
> > >
> > > Funnily enough I have loved reading it.
> >
> > > another theme that reverberates with our process
> > here, certainly
> > > with me - I am an archivist!
> > >
> > > ~~~
> > >
> > > What is the most "psyber-lish" book you have read?
> > >
> > > Now there is a question we could *play* with.  I'd
> > want to read
> > > the top contender straight away!
> > >
> > > Walter
> > >
> > > ~~~
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0316158461/psybernbooksinasA/
> > > - The Archivist : A Novel by Martha Cooley
> > >
> > > A Brilliant, Electrifying, Literary First Novel,
> > August 11, 1999
> > > Reviewer: Palmtree95@aol.com from New Jersey
> > >
> > > I stayed up late enraptured by the discovery of
> > this marvelous
> > > first novel. Complex , literary, it revolves
> > around Matthias, the
> > > archivist of literary documents at a prestigious
> > university
> > > library. He is the gatekeeper of letters written
> > by T.S. Eliot to
> > > a woman who he loved for most of his life, Emily
> > Hale, and then
> > > spurned after his religious conversion to the
> > Anglican Church.
> > > These letters are the bequest of Hale to the
> > library, not to be
> > > opened until the year 2020, to scholars. Into
> > Matt's life comes
> > > Roberta, a poet, who is obsessed with seeing the
> > letters as a way
> > > to understand her own religious identity.
> > Interwoven with the
> > > story of Eliot's relationship with his wife
> > Vivienne, committed
> > > to a mental institution by Eliot, is the story of
> > Matt's marriage
> > > to the dark, unfathomable Judith who is also a
> > poet. Eliot's life
> > > is the 'stillpoint of the turning world' upon
> > which the lives of
> > > Matt, Judith and Roberta balance as each of them
> > comes to terms
> > > with hidden secrets, revelation, religious
> > identity, faith,
> > > solitude, obsession and the spiritual vacuum
> > created by the
> > > aftermath of WWII and the Holocaust. This book is
> > multi-textured;
> > > a delicate tapestry of meaning is woven. It's
> > finely crafted like
> > > a beautiful symphony as themes, exposition and
> > resolution are
> > > spun by the author. And when all is finally woven
> > together magic
> > > occurs, and the reader learns something valuable
> > about his or her
> > > own life. Any reader can ask for nothing more
> > sublime from an
> > > author than this.
> > >
> > > Walter Logeman
> > > Psychotherapist
> > > PO BOX 13543
> > > Christchurch
> > > New Zealand
> > >
> > >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> > > Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or
> > unsubscribe
> > > here:
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> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
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> >
> >
>
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