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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Aug 2000 06:27:33 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles THompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: [COC GAME] REFLECTIONS
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
>

>Judith wrote.

>
> I related an experience of playing with my son when he was about 7
> (he's 28 now)...there was a "game" called the "un-game"...there was
> no outcome...it was about the experience...it was non
> competitive...there were no right or wrong answers, only your answers
> which were right for you...in our competitive US world it faded...
> <

this got me thinking..

maybe game has different resonances for different people..
certainly for me, "game" is all about play and not
necessarily about score. but, as has been said.. different resonances..

then i thought.. i wonder what resonances the word "play"
has for people.. something i've wanted to do for a while is
to put on a cyber-play.

i have heard of shakespeare readings being done on-line
in IRC..

its kinda neat, since you can take on multiple identities
in IRC.. so one person could be running multiple windows
and appear as a member of the audience, and, perhaps
two characters..

you can also exit the stage, or be present on it,
and even do the actions in a way.

hmm.. anyway, at the moment this is just the nascent
promise of an idea. not nearly as well formed as
Stephen's fantastic happening thing, but
lets hear interest.. if people are interested
I will try to coordinate the technology
infrastructure and lay out some guidlines
to help people get onto this chat thing,
and we can work out how to do it,
and what we want to do, etc
as in what script, in this list.

i am willing to take on that role
but if there is no interest then
i am also perfectly happy to forget about
(at least here in this forum)

so... what do you think all ?


--

before i sent this, i had a look for references
to such events on the web..

hmm found something..

heres the script: (dont know what exactly
i think of it)
http://www.sandiego.com/hamnet/dscript.htm

and heres how it came out in practice.. bit confusing
but perhaps less so if experienced in real time
rather than read down the page.
http://www.sandiego.com/hamnet/d1log.htm


we could do something :
 - simpler
 - nicer

( or not ;-)

i think i might think about this a bit more...
but in the meantime.. here it is

--

love to all

Miles

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Aug 2000 06:34:24 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles THompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: [COC GAME] REFLECTIONS
Comments: To: miles@mail.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hmm.. a couple more links:

- a more readeable explanation of the hamnet players
  link i sent in an earlier email
http://www.ascusc.org/jcmc/vol1/issue2/perform.html

- a  starting point for the hamnet players
http://www.sandiego.com/hamnet/

Miles Thompson wrote:
>
> >
> >
>
> >Judith wrote.
>
> >
> > I related an experience of playing with my son when he was about 7
> > (he's 28 now)...there was a "game" called the "un-game"...there was
> > no outcome...it was about the experience...it was non
> > competitive...there were no right or wrong answers, only your answers
> > which were right for you...in our competitive US world it faded...
> > <
>
> this got me thinking..
>
> maybe game has different resonances for different people..
> certainly for me, "game" is all about play and not
> necessarily about score. but, as has been said.. different resonances..
>
> then i thought.. i wonder what resonances the word "play"
> has for people.. something i've wanted to do for a while is
> to put on a cyber-play.
>
> i have heard of shakespeare readings being done on-line
> in IRC..
>
> its kinda neat, since you can take on multiple identities
> in IRC.. so one person could be running multiple windows
> and appear as a member of the audience, and, perhaps
> two characters..
>
> you can also exit the stage, or be present on it,
> and even do the actions in a way.
>
> hmm.. anyway, at the moment this is just the nascent
> promise of an idea. not nearly as well formed as
> Stephen's fantastic happening thing, but
> lets hear interest.. if people are interested
> I will try to coordinate the technology
> infrastructure and lay out some guidlines
> to help people get onto this chat thing,
> and we can work out how to do it,
> and what we want to do, etc
> as in what script, in this list.
>
> i am willing to take on that role
> but if there is no interest then
> i am also perfectly happy to forget about
> (at least here in this forum)
>
> so... what do you think all ?
>
> --
>
> before i sent this, i had a look for references
> to such events on the web..
>
> hmm found something..
>
> heres the script: (dont know what exactly
> i think of it)
> http://www.sandiego.com/hamnet/dscript.htm
>
> and heres how it came out in practice.. bit confusing
> but perhaps less so if experienced in real time
> rather than read down the page.
> http://www.sandiego.com/hamnet/d1log.htm
>
> we could do something :
>  - simpler
>  - nicer
>
> ( or not ;-)
>
> i think i might think about this a bit more...
> but in the meantime.. here it is
>
> --
>
> love to all
>
> Miles

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Aug 2000 15:53:17 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: [COC GAME] REFLECTIONS
In-Reply-To:  <39905115.389AF606@paradise.net.nz>
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Miles

Ah, nice to have one more reflection!

> then i thought.. i wonder what resonances the word "play"
> has for people..

I have a friend called Christopher Wainwright in Perth who used
to run workshops on play.  They were all about pain!  It seems
that in order to play we need to overcome the trauma of having it
*not allowed* ... well i say "we" but it might be just people who
went to his workshops - I only went to one where he presented the
work to other therapists, but the same theme came up.

That was just one more resonnance that popped up out of many.

~~~

> something i've wanted to do for a while is
> to put on a cyber-play.

Go for it Miles... I'll be in, and also willing to help out in
here or behind the scenes if you need help.  I have not been too
successful with meeting for chat... I find it hard to *shedule*
cyberspace time.  This sounds like something we will need to put
in our diaries, and *make* time for.  I'll do that.

> heres the script: (dont know what exactly
> i think of it)
> http://www.sandiego.com/hamnet/dscript.htm
>
> and heres how it came out in practice.. bit confusing
> but perhaps less so if experienced in real time
> rather than read down the page.
> http://www.sandiego.com/hamnet/d1log.htm


Confusing to me!

> we could do something :
>  - simpler
>  - nicer

That sounds good.


Walter

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:18:32 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: [COC GAME] REFLECTIONS
In-Reply-To:  <399052B0.A1920C46@paradise.net.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Miles

It makes a bit more sense,after looking at the links below,  but
it looks like a messy business!

Of course *messy* is how some people like things to be... that
has some of the qualities of *play* ... but it distresses me!  Of
course that wont stop me from being here in this...

I actually found our experiment a while back intriguingly messy
delightful.  I am thinking of Nancy's idea of our play in the
group here where we did some sort of version of the story of
Psyche and Eros.  I was the Tower, Stephen was "ants".  The thing
never ended... I feel as if i am still in it sometimes!  It is a
bit like the world trip I started when i was 20 and came from
Sydney to New Zealand... a great world trip, proceeding very
slowly.

What I liked about the COC game was that it was not all that
messy. I liked the way i felt held by Stephen's containment and
commitment.


Walter

~~~


> hmm.. a couple more links:
>
> - a more readeable explanation of the hamnet players
>   link i sent in an earlier email
> http://www.ascusc.org/jcmc/vol1/issue2/perform.html
>
> - a  starting point for the hamnet players
> http://www.sandiego.com/hamnet/

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:57:52 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Backstory
In-Reply-To:  <su1voss3o6qaubtljbssje3msjj4b02upf@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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All,

Dan was telling me the other day of an Internet concept I had not
heard about.  How on the Well there is a tradition of people
being guardians of the archives, and experts on the Backstory...
made me think of your comment the other day Anita, and others too
that somehow the shared history and the feel it creates is
important

Anita wrote:
"But  how   do I relate in Psyber-L?  I  feel  that  this list is
like  a old friend  we  have common  interests and experiences,
we  know each other very well, but  don't meet  often."

I notice that in my last post i was referring to one of our
backstories (see below)

Has anyone heard of this concept described in this way?  A bit of
searching on the net seems to indicate that "backstory" gets used
as history in US slang?  Any way i like it that we have a shared
backstory... I treasure our archives.


Walter


~~~



  Re: [P] [COC GAME] REFLECTIONS
  Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:18:32 +1200


> I actually found our experiment a while back intriguingly messy
> delightful.  I am thinking of Nancy's idea of our play in the
> group here where we did some sort of version of the story of
> Psyche and Eros.  I was the Tower, Stephen was "ants".  The thing
> never ended... I feel as if i am still in it sometimes!

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:50:48 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      accessing playfulness
In-Reply-To:  <movuosk79rna1722s99e94rvdi04j04db2@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

all,

Walter, as much as some adults have lost the experience of letting go and
really playing and doing so infused with play located toward the joyful,
ecstatic, uninhibited end of the spectrum, my own experience is that -above
all- it takes a bit of practice, making time, and forging the intention to
engage in the spirit of the 'mood' of play-full-ness.

Do people have playfulness traumatically removed from their repertoire,
so-to-speak? Or, is play simply socialized away?

Count me adolescent enough to observe how it works from a perspective
unencumbered by whatever makes play hard instead of easy. I have, then,
observed the connections *delight* makes: with a more unfettered
exploration, more intense desire, a fuller openness, creativity, novelty,
etc.

***

Psychologizing to the extent, "It seems that in order to play we need to
overcome the trauma of having it *not allowed*" seems to me to be an
unnecessary, extra step, calling forth the infection of family systems and
problem-making. Where, to my view, really only practice and commitment and
a joyful process are needed.

Play and joy and openness are much closer (and accessible,) to our
sensibility I believe. So, I don't buy into interpretations which overlay
barriers. I note my view results from my own experience playing with
grown-ups.

Perhaps there is research available to back up or defeat my own general
opinion.

***

regards, Stephen

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Aug 2000 11:10:35 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Miles and play
In-Reply-To:  <399052B0.A1920C46@paradise.net.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Miles,

I need to take time to check out the links but since Stephen views me
as playing impaired I must opt in whatever it is.

love and kisses
Judith

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Aug 2000 11:08:20 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JB <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Backstory
In-Reply-To:  <h43vos071f2smhvd1qphqhge7gsas7s2uj@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Walter, and all,

I love the idea of backstory...thanks, Walter, for sharing this...I
am struck by the juxtaposition (in my mind such as it is these days
as nu-me emerges) of history and backstory...my own experience as I
reflect on this is that history has a sense of the past as permanence
and relates to facts or at least happenings as facts often without
the nuances of the lives which created the history...backstory has a
sense of permeability and an inclusion of nuance as we have here in
the archives of Psyber-l...in my case lately I have dramatically
experienced a re-storying of my life emerging with new insights as I
have lived and emerged through this past year of recovery...the
re-storying has occurred through writing what I had always thot of as
my history, but in an instant a new piece of data (fact you might
call it) completely re-storied my early life and shifted me
dramatically in my present life...

I have heard a few biographers lately discussing the impact of the
internet and the loss (in their opinions) of letter writing which
feeds their story telling...there are interesting implications of the
internet and archives and the shared contributions of a group such as
we are here as it relates to telling the story in years to come

Blessings

Judith, off to reflect further



>All,
>
>Dan was telling me the other day of an Internet concept I had not
>heard about.  How on the Well there is a tradition of people
>being guardians of the archives, and experts on the Backstory...
>made me think of your comment the other day Anita, and others too
>that somehow the shared history and the feel it creates is
>important
>
>Anita wrote:
>"But  how   do I relate in Psyber-L?  I  feel  that  this list is
>like  a old friend  we  have common  interests and experiences,
>we  know each other very well, but  don't meet  often."
>
>I notice that in my last post i was referring to one of our
>backstories (see below)
>
>Has anyone heard of this concept described in this way?  A bit of
>searching on the net seems to indicate that "backstory" gets used
>as history in US slang?  Any way i like it that we have a shared
>backstory... I treasure our archives.
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>~~~
>
>
>
>  Re: [P] [COC GAME] REFLECTIONS
>  Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:18:32 +1200
>
>
>> I actually found our experiment a while back intriguingly messy
>> delightful.  I am thinking of Nancy's idea of our play in the
>> group here where we did some sort of version of the story of
>> Psyche and Eros.  I was the Tower, Stephen was "ants".  The thing
>> never ended... I feel as if i am still in it sometimes!
>
>______________
>Walter Logeman
>walter@psybernet.co.nz
>http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Aug 2000 13:33:53 NZST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sarina Simpson <sarina_simpson@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: accessing playfulness
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Hi,

>Do people have playfulness traumatically removed from their repertoire,
>so-to-speak? Or, is play simply socialized away?

Maybe a bit of both and more. I think what happens is that the recipients
over-develop variouis counter roles or other things that don't compliment
playfullness so that it does not allow for the role of "spontaneous player"
to be enacted.

eg .. Grandmother says in a very stern voice every time the children play
and laugh ... "STOP BEING SILLY"

Thus little Mary and Bob grow up hearing the "stern critical Grandma"
telling them NOT to be silly. They learn to equate play with sillyness. So
they are reluctant "players". Mary and Bob need to learn to tell Grandma
(even though she is long dead) to shut the @##$$%$# up and let us play like
we were never allowed. With the critic silenced they will soon learn how to
play again.

.... just my 3 cents worth

regards Sarina

________________________________________________________________________
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____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Aug 2000 03:26:47 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles THompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: [COC GAME] REFLECTIONS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all,

Well this idea of a psyber-l play is intriguing and
I welcome Judith and Walters early intention to
"opt-in" with out necessarily knowing what *it*
is. How brave! ;-)

So, I guess this deserves some more thought.

However, I think it deserves quite a bit more
thought!

Before I step up to the plate (so to speak)
of providing some containment and commitment
for this play, let me just have a wee
search around for a bat.

I therefore beg a bit of your patience,
and perhaps even some suggestions ,
whilst I/we try to get some more idea of
what *it* is gonna be, and how it might work.


> Walter wrote<
> It makes a bit more sense,after looking at the links below,  but
> it looks like a messy business!

<snip>

Yes. It sure does look very messy, and
thinking about that last night, it is a
bit of a concern to me.

> I actually found our experiment a while back intriguingly messy
> delightful.  I am thinking of Nancy's idea of our play in the
> group here where we did some sort of version of the story of
> Psyche and Eros.  I was the Tower, Stephen was "ants".  The thing
> never ended... I feel as if i am still in it sometimes!

Yeah. I remember that particular piece of back history.
It was great ! Perhaps it would be great to do something
a bit like that, except perhaps with more of a 'stage'
to help make it a bit less messy.

> What I liked about the COC game was that it was not all that
> messy. I liked the way i felt held by Stephen's containment and
> commitment.

Yes, I agree. And since the COC game reflects our intentions
for Psyber-l too, lets keep that in mind.


--

love and respect,

Miles

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Aug 2000 18:11:07 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Online Theatre
In-Reply-To:  <39917837.1390D73C@paradise.net.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Miles, All,

Miles wrote:
> Yeah. I remember that particular piece of back history.
> It was great ! Perhaps it would be great to do something
> a bit like that, except perhaps with more of a 'stage'
> to help make it a bit less messy.

One thing I have been thinking about for a while, but which might
or might not apply is the notion of "moderated" in these type of
experiments.  I am not thinking of IRC type chats but in a
mailing list.

In this very L-soft list we can set up "topics", for example we
could clearly delinieate what is ordinary psyber-l discussion and
what is *in the theatre*. All theatre posts could be prefixed by
the word THEATRE or STAGE or AUDIENCE or whatever.

We have done this of course informally with the COC prefix, but
it can be actually switched on in the software, which means that
those posts can then be treated differently (eg some people could
opt out, we could filed them differently locally etc.)

It is recommended in the manual not to do this unless one also
moderates, is checks the posts for accurate use of the protocol
etc.  We can set up one or more moderators or editors in the
software.

~~~

I mention all this as it could be of interest here, though i
expect we do not want our culture and traditions mucked around
with too much!

The other reason i mention it is that in my work with other
groups I am contemplating building something like this into the
design from the start so that the collaboration in the team - eg
writing a document - is managed and facilitated easily.

Enough to say that we can play around here!  :)

Here is the link to the manual for the software that runs this
list.

http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8d/owner/owner.html


Walter




______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Aug 2000 08:27:43 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      [PLAY] Plays
In-Reply-To:  <39905115.389AF606@paradise.net.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Miles,

(I've changed the title of the thread and hope you will consider re-titling
it to whatever you think is best.)

***

I have a few questions:

What would be the script?

What room in the script is made for playing?

What is your own intention in beginning to think about such a project?

***

What I read here http://www.sandiego.com/hamnet/d1log.htm struck me (my
opinion,) as a typically puerile IRC pissing contest. The script itself
doesn't offer any clues to me because it's not very interesting.

What did you see going on?

***

I suspect you have something more sophisticated in mind. The replay of a
script is an interesting concept. Or, do you see this going in the
direction of a group improvising a story in real time together?

Just a few questions, my friend!

***

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Aug 2000 08:32:11 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: accessing playfulness
In-Reply-To:  <20000809013353.30346.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sarina writes,

"With the critic silenced they will soon learn how to play again."

This makes sense. I would guess it doesn't cover all the cases where the
'play instinct' is inhibited. But, the idea of persons admonishing
themselves in repeat of earlier admonishments seems a workable hypothesis.

***

Perhaps people here in Psyber-L might qualify their own ability to play and
do so according to their own conception of what play is and what role it
*plays* in their life.

Any takers?

***

best2all,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Aug 2000 08:36:11 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Miles and play
In-Reply-To:  <v04210105b5b5fd3352f2@[207.54.181.55]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Judith writes,

>I need to take time to check out the links but since Stephen views me
>as playing impaired I must opt in whatever it is.

I have clarified the background to this mis-attribution with Judith over
the phone. When *play* first came up in our ongoing dialogue, Judith
couldn't come to terms with what play meant for her: "I don't know what
play is."

However, my own observation is that Judith plays just fine but may not know
that's what she is doing.

On the other hand, she dances very well...

and knows when she is dancing.

***

the mambo king,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Aug 2000 19:51:32 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: accessing playfulness
In-Reply-To:  <v04220801b5b6fed8746d@[207.54.160.91]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Stephen,


At 08:32 9.8.2000 -0400, you wrote:
>Perhaps people here in Psyber-L might qualify their own ability to play and
>do so according to their own conception of what play is and what role it
>*plays* in their life.
>
>Any takers?


Nowadays I'm  playing  by myself  Oulipian   languages  games
-  just  now   the N+7  game
fascinates and  amuses me greatly. It is  a  method  replacing each  noun (
N)  in the  chosen text  with the  seventh following it  in
a  dictionary.  For  example  the text chosen  of the   Book of Genesis
derived from  a small dictionary: " In the  bend God created the
hen  and  the education. And the  education was without founder, and void:
and the death was upon  the falsehood of  the demand. And the  sport of God
moved upon the falsehood of the  wealth. And God said, Let there be limit;
and there  was limit."

Love2you
Anita

PS. I 'm also  very  fond  of  non-intellectual plays, such as dancing.

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Aug 2000 21:46:35 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Backstory
In-Reply-To:  <v04210104b5b5f8773617@[207.54.181.55]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Dear Judith and Walter,

I think that without  the  back story there cannot   be  a  true
connection,  not  a soulful touch with  anybody.  It  is my  experience
during  the  6 week tour of Europe  with  107
writers.   Those  you    didn't  tell  their stories,   left  only
the  names for me, without  personal  characteristics, so  somehow
anonymous. And   I  couldn't  join together their faces  and  names.
They  were like  paper dolls, not  really persons to me.  I  can remember
those  fellow travellers, who shared   with me their  stories and their
dreams.  They  were  to me real human beings with  the deep dimension,
because they had  a history.   Of  course  everyone  on the train had his
or her history, but  some  don't  want to share
it   with  others,  some  couldn't enough English, some  were too
shy,  some  don't like to be  personal - they  were mostly men.  For some
reason the women told  their back stories more freely than  the men.
They  were not  afraid to be  personal.   It is  same  in the real life
as  in the cyber space  -    one  cannot   understand  other soul
without  words.  Telling  the  own  history is  regeneration -
as  Judith  wrote:

   in my case lately I have dramatically
>experienced a re-storying of my life emerging with new insights as I
>have lived and emerged through this past year of recovery...the
>re-storying has occurred through writing what I had always thot of as
>my history, but in an instant a new piece of data (fact you might
>call it) completely re-storied my early life and shifted me
>dramatically in my present life...


My  fondest regards
Anita

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:21:10 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: accessing playfulness
In-Reply-To:  <v04220800b5b5ca449fa1@[207.54.160.207]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen, all,

> Do people have playfulness traumatically removed from their repertoire,
> so-to-speak? Or, is play simply socialized away?

Both... and more.  Also simply being playful can bring forth
other memories.  I might have sounded like I have a narrow view
on these things, but i think we are very diverse beings!

~~~

> Psychologizing to the extent, "It seems that in order to play we need to
> overcome the trauma of having it *not allowed*" seems to me to be an
> unnecessary, extra step, calling forth the infection of family systems and
> problem-making. Where, to my view, really only practice and commitment and
> a joyful process are needed.
>
> Play and joy and openness are much closer (and accessible,) to our
> sensibility I believe. So, I don't buy into interpretations which overlay
> barriers. I note my view results from my own experience playing with
> grown-ups.
>
> Perhaps there is research available to back up or defeat my own general
> opinion.

You make good sense to me... the context might be important
too... is the play part of learning, work or therapy, each of
these things has its own culture and will throw its own light on
the matters. I am most familiar with the therapy world and the
dynamics of the original family may come up more readily. It is
easy to see and explore links that do not *need* to be there in
other contexts.

In here our various *games* led to quite a bit of personal
*work*... not always fun, but still play for all that.

More posts have arrived.  On to those.


Walter
______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:56:24 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: accessing playfulness
In-Reply-To:  <v04220801b5b6fed8746d@[207.54.160.91]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sarina, Stephen

Sarina, you gave a good example of the sort of therapeutic
dynamics around play that I am familiar with - fairly typical of
the dynamics revealed through psychodrama approach to play
workshops!

I am open to learning more on all this and I'll be a taker on
your question Stephen:

> Perhaps people here in Psyber-L might qualify their own ability to play and
> do so according to their own conception of what play is and what role it
> *plays* in their life.
>
> Any takers?

Kate and i have recently been playing scrabble on my Palm
machine.  It's fun.  We began on the plane trips, and have
continued ever since.  So that is a real game, with real rules
with scores and outcomes like win-loose.  Kate wins most games,
damn. We have had other computer game fads - tetris and freecell
(we play on two computers and race!)

For all the fun of these things it is a bit trivial in my life...
a rest from the day's work.

I guess i play with my computer in a way... sometimes I "play
around" with new software and so on, just for fun... I usually
feel as if i have wasted time when i do that. I have a sense of
needing to give myself "permission to play" and usually need a
larger goal to justify it all.

By far the most important "play" in my life is the Dreamevent
"games" and so on... I think of looking for the patterns and
associations as a sort of play... I learn through play.

I wish i could play a musical instrument... I have failed at that
a couple of times.

I dont like any sports other than the ones without a strong game
element like surfing, climbing, walking etc.

Well there is a start.


Walter


______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:32:38 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      (fwd) PSYBER-L Renewal
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Psyber-Lers,

I thought i'd forward this email from the Lsoft people who host this
mailing list to the group, I have not done this before.  I'd quite like
some feedback on how useful continuing in this *format* is.  The cost every
three months is going up and up, the reason is that the archives get bigger
and bigger.  [one reason it is good to delete extranious quoting from
posts]... the other is our ever falling $NZ!

I have not found a group format with an archiving system and search engine
as good as lsoft.  Also we dont have ads in the emails, which is important
I think.

There are some alternatives though:

I could post the old archives as files on the web, they would be in a form
that could be used by some email programs.  I could easily use Dan's Lyris
listserver, which does not use ads, and will not cost a thing.  The
interface on the web is not as good though.

Please note:  I am quite happy to continue the payment.  This is not a
request for money. I find it worth it just for me to keep the archives like
this, though I only use them occasionally. If a few other people like the
status quo it will seem more like something worth pursuing.

To see the archives look at the link on the bottom of any email.  There is
a password sytem to negotiate.

Note:  I have oked the list as is for the next three months.


Walter


~~~


Forwarded from walter@psybernet.co.nz,
a post from "Jeni" <jeni@lsoft.com>, dated Tue, 8 Aug 2000 11:31:41 -0500,
with the subject "PSYBER-L Renewal":

~~~


    My name is Jeni Williams and I am with L-Soft international Inc.
 The reason I am contacting you is to let you know that your EASE Home
 list is up for renewal.  The cost for your renewal is $50.25.
Please let me know as soon as possible what you would like to do
concerning your list. If you will be sending your payment, you can
make payment payable and send to:

L-Soft International, inc
8100 Corporate Drive
Suite 350
Landover MD 20785

Thank you, and I look forward to hearing from you soon.

** Because of the low-cost principle of EASE Home lists, we cannot honor
 requests for paper invoices.  If you would like proof of payment for
 you EASE Home list, this can be accomplished by sending mail to me
 and I wil supply you with a Confirmation of Payment Notice.  Thank
 you for your understanding and cooperation.


Jeni Williams
L-Soft international Inc
jeni@lsoft.com




______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:46:52 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: (fwd) PSYBER-L Renewal
In-Reply-To:  <vsg6psg9ae7pksm2joqookceokv7mun6ju@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

There is one thing I like to be able to do, and it *used* to be easy, which
is to make a link to an older post like this:

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9603&L=psyber-l&P=R2030&X=270A3964408338265E&Y=walter@psybernet.co.nz

Since this archive is *now members only* for this like to work you'd need
to change the final email address to the one you are subbed to the list
with.

Also if your email program breaks up the long URL then you'd need to
rebuild it in the browser!

For all that if you do get to the old post you can see how much fun this
is!  I like it anyway.



Walter
______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Aug 2000 08:45:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      word play <> accessing playfulness
In-Reply-To:  <4.3.1.0.20000809190731.00a85470@mail.megabaud.fi>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Anita,

>-  just  now   the N+7  game

Hey, I wonder if a synchronicity might appear in such a game!?

***

This (your) openness to a formula, short of ramdomness, ('not any noun will
do!') transmogrifies the sentence(s) played with and seems to me to be a
very good example of a process for finding a hidden gem.

This is a model of using a novel convention to derive the unconventional.
It's an interesting feature of a kind of play.

"In the  bend God created the hen  and  the education."

Funny and a bit telling.

"hen" derives from old English, *kan*; older: (Latin) canere, to sing;
related (Latin) oscine [ a singing bird used in divination, "one that sings
before the augurs" ]

To sketch the continuum of this family: hen-chant-enchant-charm . . .

***

So: in the bend God created the charm and education, for example. And is
not God good at hiding the signs from us? Maybe one reason first there was
the word, the word we come to play with!

***

regards,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:26:09 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Robin Jai
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Welcome to Psyber-L Robin Jai <robinjaii@yahoo.com>

Looking forward to your presence here.  BY way of introduction
you wrote:

|  Great, I like everything in your web page
|        Robin

You may wish to add somehting to that.  Even so I hope others
welcome you here. You obviously have good taste.<grin>

Currently we are discussing various "games" we have plyed here of
a psychological nature and the nature of "play".  This is a rough
summary as there is actually lots being discussed in may ways.

There are about 20 or so on this list, you can see who they are
by sending an email to

review Psyber-L

at

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

You can see the archives (the url should be on the bottom of this
post -- you will need to set up a password.)


Walter

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:14:01 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Introuction to my family - Walter
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Psyber-l,

I have just had occasion to write up an intro to my family, and
have included a few pictures... thought i'd send a version of it
here - who knows I kick off some more intros!


Walter

~~~


I am, at almost 56 in a quite new family situation.  I am newly
married (Nov. 98) to Kate.  Here is the moment:
http://psybernet.co.nz/photos/wkwedding.jpg  We have been
together since '88, and marriage has been a good step! It has
been quite different doing this the second time for both of us,
this time we were a bit more aware!

Our kids have left home.  So Kate and I are on our own in our
central city villa http://psybernet.co.nz/photos/house2000.jpg in
Christchurch New Zealand. We are also often to be found at Mt
Lyford North Canterbury in our holiday house there.

Josh born '72 in my first marriage to Marian Hobbs
http://www.executive.govt.nz/minister/hobbs/ (this link indicates
what she is up to now :)   We were married in 1970, and had a
difficult marriage though full of rich ventures including setting
up an urban intentional community in Christchurch, which
continues to this day and also setting up an alternative school
"Four Avenues" which was state run and survived until recently.
We were divorced in 1979.

Josh On (he changed his name informally from Daniel Logeman for
some reason of his own) has just graduated from the Royal College
of Art, we went over to London for his graduation
http://psybernet.co.nz/photos/wjgrad.jpg  That's me on the left
:)  Josh is now in San Francisco working on amazing digital
design stuff currently with http://www.futurefarmers.com

Rebecca Webber 19 (Kate's daughter from her previous marriage) is
the USA, working in a summer camp at Laguna Beach CA.  Here is
she is with Kate on our trip to Universal Studios.
http://psybernet.co.nz/photos/rk.jpg

So we have a scattered family...

I grew up in Australia, however my parents and my brother have
all died so my nearest relatives are now in holland, and i have
little contact. Kate's family is fraught with tensions and not
really close, and so family for me is now Kate & I with our
children somewhere in the world... and we have some good friends.
I feel good about all of it!

Here is a photo i like of Kate and I, in the Ethiopian restaurant
in Brixton (where we were on our trip for Josh's graduation.)
http://psybernet.co.nz/photos/wkbrixton.jpg



______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:17:50 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Synchronicity?
In-Reply-To:  <v04220800b5baf2292b86@[207.54.160.91]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

  Stephen, Walter and  everybody



Stephen, At 08:45 12.8.2000 -0400, you wrote:

>"hen" derives from old English, *kan*; older: (Latin) canere, to sing;
>related (Latin) oscine [ a singing bird used in divination, "one that sings
>before the augurs" ]


That's  interesting! I  didn't  know  the  English derivation. I  took
my  example  from
the   book Oulipo  Compendium,  because it  was too difficult to me
translate my  Finnish  N+ 7 word games to English.


>So: in the bend God created the charm and education, for example. And is
>not God good at hiding the signs from us? Maybe one reason first there was
>the word, the word we come to play with!



>Hey, I wonder if a synchronicity might appear in such a game!?


  I wonder, too.  I'm  not  quite sure, what   synchronicity?   Apropos of
which,  yesterday I  thought  who  are on this list now. I  couldn't
remember
how  to  ask  Listserv to  send names.  When I opened my  mail-box  some
hours later, there was   Walter's  post with  an advice how  to do
it.  That's  synchronicity!

Thanks, Walter for  your  photo links.  You  are now more  real,  you
have  a face and a body. I knew formerly that you have  a wife and  a
son.  Congratulations to  your  son for his graduation.  BTW, my  son
also  changed his name.  He  was formerly  Jyrki  Pasanen, but he took my
name  Konkka. He  defended last May his thesis on the game  theory.
So  I'm  now  a  very proud  mother of PhD.  To  tell the truth  I take
more pride in  his dissertation ( called Funk Games) than my  own books.

Hello all faithful souls to the list.  How are you?


Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:49:48 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles THompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      general ranting..
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all,

i've been thinking about this N+7 game, and how
interesting it sounds.. trying to work out if
it has anything to do with play on stages..
not sure that it does a whole lot!! ;-)

Anyway.. sounds like a great game.. If anyone
else has some great N+7 koans to share I'd
love to hear them..

Uhh.. im actually writing to this list
because i've come across a story
which makes me think of a discussion that
went on here some time ago about
"tremenos" - about how, sometimes, aspects
of having a a place harder to get to, for
instance through having to "subscribe"
can be important to create the vibe
for a list..

also, how important the people are to
the creating the "tremenos" for a place
(over the technology).

all of which is brought out by this story
on www.chessclub.com
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/07/chess.ent.idg/index.html
...


Uhh.. well better go now. much desperate
working going on..

Anita Konkka wrote:
<snip>
> So  I'm  now  a  very proud  mother of PhD.  To  tell the truth  I take
> more pride in  his dissertation ( called Funk Games) than my  own books.

Anita,

Sounds like a very interesting thesis! Any way
I can get to see it ? (I devoured Walters'
son, and my friend, Josh's thesis with great interest!)

..

i am doing well thank you Anita, BTW!


Miles

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Aug 2000 15:07:24 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: general ranting..
In-Reply-To:  <399B52CC.750339EB@paradise.net.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Hello Miles, and   all Psyberbians

At 14:49 17.8.2000 +1200, you wrote:


>i've been thinking about this N+7 game, and how
>interesting it sounds.. trying to work out if
>it has anything to do with play on stages..
>not sure that it does a whole lot!! ;-)


I think that  it has nothing with that  kind of   plays.   Just now  I have
no time to  plays any kind of games. I'm  leaving day after tomorrow
to  the literary train trip, again.  The train is called Lev Tolstoy.
I  shall be for 4 night on the train, 2 days in Moscow and 3  days  in
Saransk. It is  in Mordavia, about  600 km from Moscow to east.  There
is  the  Finno-Ugric  writer's confrence. Travel broadens the
mind,  hopefully :-))

Best to you
Anita



>Anyway.. sounds like a great game.. If anyone
>else has some great N+7 koans to share I'd
>love to hear them..
>
>Uhh.. im actually writing to this list
>because i've come across a story
>which makes me think of a discussion that
>went on here some time ago about
>"tremenos" - about how, sometimes, aspects
>of having a a place harder to get to, for
>instance through having to "subscribe"
>can be important to create the vibe
>for a list..
>
>also, how important the people are to
>the creating the "tremenos" for a place
>(over the technology).
>
>all of which is brought out by this story
>on www.chessclub.com
>http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/07/chess.ent.idg/index.html
>...
>
>
>Uhh.. well better go now. much desperate
>working going on..
>
>Anita Konkka wrote:
><snip>
> > So  I'm  now  a  very proud  mother of PhD.  To  tell the truth  I take
> > more pride in  his dissertation ( called Funk Games) than my  own books.
>
>Anita,
>
>Sounds like a very interesting thesis! Any way
>I can get to see it ? (I devoured Walters'
>son, and my friend, Josh's thesis with great interest!)
>
>..
>
>i am doing well thank you Anita, BTW!
>
>
>Miles
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:04:50 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Aldon Hynes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Welcome Aldon Hynes

Hi, this will be your first post from the group... this one goes
to the other 20 or so of us on the "list".  Thanks for your intro
Aldon.  Your interests are 100% aligned with the purpose of this
group, and also with my own - and as listowner - host - of this
group that makes sense.

What specifically would do you *imagine* you might get from this
group, what would you want?

We have been discussing this lately and it seems that one strong
sense here is among the core of longer stayers at least is the
sense of history and continuity.  That certainly has impact for
me - but of course it is not enough.


There has not been a lot of activity here... but a steady stream
including Miles hinting that he is planning some sort of online
play with a script (!).


I would like to know what other groups you are on - what is
useful.


Walter



~~~

Over the past few years, I have become more and more
interested is the psychology of the internet, and
especially its group dynamics.  I have been reading
extensively in these areas.  I am a technologist by
training and have been connected to the internet since
the early eighties.  I am active on several mailing
lists and also in synchronous communications,
primarily MOOs.

Aldon

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Aug 2000 07:06:17 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Extended introduction.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Walter (et al)

   Thank you for the warm welcome to the list.  Before
I get too much into my fantasies of what this list is
likely to be like, I hope to read the archives to get
a sense of the who is here and what the recent topics
have been.

   Other lists that I am on that are somewhat related
to this list include:

Experiences in Groups Online
http://www.egroups.com/group/expingrpsonl
I run this group as an experiential group working
primarily from a framework of Wilfred Bion.  I have
tried to get folks from outside of the Bion framework
to join this list.

Group Analysis
http://www.mailbase.ac.uk/lists/group-analysis/
This is a group that comes more from the S.H.Foulkes
framework.  It is not especially process oriented, yet
spends sometime in process.

Group Psychotherapy
http://www.group-psychotherapy.com/listinfo.htm
This is an old established list which is much more
broad based than either of the two lists above.

Group Relations
http://www.egroups.com/group/grouprelations
This is a more general list about Group Relations in
the tradition of Bion.  It is fairly low volume and
not process oriented.

Organizational Dynamics
http://www.egroups.com/group/orgdyne
This is a new list which takes some of Bion's work and
beyond and applies it to the workplace.  It was
through Organizational Dynamics that I got interested
in this whole area.

Association of Internet Research
http://aoir.org/airjoin.html
This is an even more general list aimed at promoting
interdisciplinary research about the internet.

Resource Center for Cyberculture Studies
http://www.otal.umd.edu/~rccs/
This is another general list aimed at understanding
the dynamics of Cyberculture.

As I mentioned before, I am also active in MOOs, which
I will perhaps go into more details about later on.

I look forward to getting to know everyone here

Aldon


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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:55:03 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Extended introduction.
In-Reply-To:  <20000826140617.29242.qmail@web2102.mail.yahoo.com>
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Aldon

Hi again.

> I hope to read the archives to get
> a sense of the who is here and what the recent topics
> have been.

That makes good sense of course.  I am still curious about your
fantasies though. It is not fair to put you on the spot, but I
think our "fantasies" of this group are of great interest!
Partly because our fantasies are so potent online.  Walking into
a face to face group, you know which city, social milieu etc. to
expect. Our fantasy is important there too, but not as much as
here - where i think we live closer to them, in a fantasy world.
Perhaps you might share then much later when you *do* know who is
here etc.

> Experiences in Groups Online
> http://www.egroups.com/group/expingrpsonl
> I run this group as an experiential group working
> primarily from a framework of Wilfred Bion.  I have
> tried to get folks from outside of the Bion framework
> to join this list.

I have just joined and read about 6 posts or so recent posts.  I
experienced a lovely feel to the group. I have not introduced my
self there... one of the things that was under discussion there
was "belonging" in a group and also the discussion of *other*
online groups in a group.

I could easily imagine being at home in your group. But then what
about being here?  I cant really have two homes.

Now i am thinking that this group, nor "Experiences in Groups
Online" are designed to be "homes" they both have clearly stated
purposes - quite similar ones!

What is it that when we come into a friendly open place (at least
one where we have a fantasy of that) that it feels like home?
Maybe we need to work more specifically to create "online homes"
so the study groups, the learning groups are more "work" groups.

~~~

Now I am thinking of how hard it is sometimes to keep a work
group from being a "therapy" group.  Everyone has old wounds,
family crisis, interesting stories, and it is part of the art of
group work in organisations to honour that, and at the same time
do the work.

~~~

Hmmmm, what shall i do with my new "Experiences in Groups Online"
membership?  Introduce myself? Stay? Say hi and bye? Be a lurker?
Not sure yet.

Aldon, do you share any of thes feelings as you enter here?

Oh, and thank for sharing all the links... good to have!


Walter



______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:30:27 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Aldon Hynes <ahynes1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Extended introduction.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Walter (et al)

  Thank you for the warm welcome.  I have not yet read
through the archives, but Walter has asked some good
questions that I feel called to respond to.  I recall
walking into Group Relation conferences, which start
with the same sort of question about what has brought
people to the conference and what their expectations
are.  I recall walking in, sitting down, and not
really knowing what my expectations were, other than
to be challenged to think in new ways and to grow from
that challenge.

   It does seem to me as if this list and the
Experiences in Groups Online list have a lot in
common, or at least my fantasies about this list and
my understanding of the Experiences in Groups Online
list.  What is different, for me, about this list is
the focus on depth interaction.

   Before I go any further, I should explain that I
come to all of this from a technological bent, and my
grounding is psychology is very weak.  I imagine
depth to carry a special meaning, and in my mind it
is all tied up with thoughts about Jung, myths, and
archetypal images, all of which I know very little
about and I look forward to learning more about this,
especially experientially, online.

   With these few posts, I imagine an image of who I
am is starting to emerge in the group and I wonder
what others are imagining about me joining the group
at this point.

  As a final point, Walter pondered the boundaries
between a home, a work group, and a therapy group.
 I wonder about the desire to keep boundaries clear.
This seems to conflict with the desire to integrate.
Perhaps, for me, home is where my attention is,
every group can be a work group if people choose to do
the work, and a therapy group if people grow, from
doing the work.

Aldon



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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:55:06 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Extended introduction.
In-Reply-To:  <20000827213027.2547.qmail@web2105.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Greetings Aldon,

I'm impressed by your lineup of email groups. I've long been a member of
this group and netdynam, (as well as several others focused on Jung's
work,) and have been a participant/observer with -I assume- similar
interests in matters of psyche, psychology and the dynamics of groups.

Netdynam was originally commissioned by its founder to make the attempt to
implement a task-oriented study of its own unfolding dynamics with Bion's
framework central to its mission. It became a 'hard to fit' task, although,
for -literally- years the group did study its own process. Netdynam has
been fitfully active in a much more informal mode for the last year or so.

***

My own view of 'therapy' is it is equivalent to experiential learning when
it is concerned primarily with the group being in the mode of
participant/observer, with group process on the table. My own experience
has been that almost all the email groups focused on psychology eventually
tackle the conundrums of projection and anxiety and unconscious enactments
over time.

So, this is a way of stating the obvious: in the situations for which
participants' powers of observation, engagement and feeling are activated,
and tied to the intention to understand in a personal and 'psychological'
sense, the prospect of learning about one's self and about the group is
fulfilled.

***

At the same time, there is a waxing and waning of engagement that becomes
part of a group's ongoing history, at least my own experience of several
groups. Perhaps it could be viewed -one way- as a matter of the group's
unfolding narrative.

***

Largely the groups I participate in are interdisciplinary and further mixed
by virtue of the varying degrees of background, etc.

It remains all very interesting and, often exciting to be involved in these
kinds of groups.

Welcome aboard!

***

regards, Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:13:18 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: accessing playfulness
In-Reply-To:  <7ec4pskpb812l3gssaqvimjr3jgb2offod@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, all,

Let me pick this thread back up. Thanks for responding to my question.
("Perhaps people here in Psyber-L might qualify their own ability to play
and do so according to their own conception of what play is and what role
it *plays* in their life.")

You've made *play* range widely. Allow me to interpret your answers by way
of breaking down play into some categories.

First, you described playing a game with Kate. Game play: for amusement and
relaxation, and directed toward an outcome, yet not a particularly
important outcome (in the scheme of things).

Second, fun, exploratory play in the mode of 'trial and error' directed to
understand how something works or at least reveal some its capabilities.

(Question: if you gain some new knowledge in this kind of play, do you
still feel you have "wasted time"?)

Third, (as you put it, "important") play  "looking for the patterns and
associations as a sort of play... I learn through play."

Put this way, I get a sense this is very vitalizing for you.

Fourth, non-competitive play which immerses you physically in a compelling
environment/

***

The next question is: in what way is play similarly and differently
implicated in all of these different activities?

***

playfully,

Stephen

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