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To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:44:22 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psybernet Weblog
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Salutations all,

Things around here seem pretty quiet/peaceful/restful/meditative (I
see psyber-l these days as kind of the mailing list equivalent of Zen
MOO - though I guess some people would see it as dead, or at least
dormant!). Is the dream list still dreaming?

Robert, picking up on your post and web page describing your
community project, I thought the following might be of interest.

all the best to all,

Simon


--- begin forwarded text


       Neighborhoods Online Forum - DO-NO@egroups.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
     From Democracies Online - http://e-democracy.org/do

  -> Subscribe to:  do-no-subscribe@egroups.com  <-
    Opening Late March 2000 with 100th Subscriber

DO-NO is an international e-mail list for information exchange
among those using the Internet as a tool to improve their
neighborhoods and other small geographic communities.

This peer-to-peer forum encourages neighborhood volunteers,
leaders, and others to share advice, experiences, technical
tips, and big ideas. This includes discussions on the use of
online tools (e-mail lists, web sites, etc.) to:

     - Build a sense of local community
     - Break down social isolation in geographic communities
       (virtual introductions leading to enhanced community life)
     - Increase citizen participation in both in-person and
       virtual community affairs
     - Promote efforts that encourage Internet public access for
       everyone within a very local area

This is NOT a general discussion list about neighborhood issues in
general, for that try <http://www.libertynet.org/nol/build-com.html>.

To SUBSCRIBE, send a blank e-mail message to:

      do-no-subscribe@egroups.com

To read past posts or join the 1000 person moderated Democracies
Online Newswire, visit <http://e-democracy.org/do>.


Who should I invite to join us?

Please help spread the word about the Neighborhoods Online Forum
by forwarding this message.  Those involved with neighborhood
associations and other small geographic communities such as
block clubs, apartment associations, business districts, lake
communities, and other unincorporated areas are encouraged to
participate in this forum.  Those active with local government
online efforts, particularly small towns and villages, are
welcome as are those active with online commercial efforts such
as small local media outlets or those developing online tools
for local communities.

Neighborhoods Online RULES:

1.  All posts must be signed with your real name, e-mail
address, and city/state/country of residence.

2.  It is recommended that no one post more than twice a day.
Three posts per person in one day is the absolute limit.

The list manager, Zach Korb <do-no-owner@egroups.com>, reserves
the right to deal with problems as they arise and add or change
the rules upon informal consultation with the forum to further
the mission and purpose of this information exchange space.


--- end forwarded text

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Apr 2000 00:36:41 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Salutations!
In-Reply-To:  <p04310101b50e231a7ada@[195.200.13.67]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon,

  Re: [P] Psybernet Weblog
  Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:44:22 +0100

Nice to hear from you.

> Things around here seem pretty quiet/peaceful/restful/meditative (I
> see psyber-l these days as kind of the mailing list equivalent of Zen
> MOO - though I guess some people would see it as dead, or at least
> dormant!). Is the dream list still dreaming?

Zen, dead or dormant... I'll go with Zen!

The DreamEvent concluded a week or so ago.  I have been asked to
write something about these groups by Richard Wilkerson (was a
member here briefly years ago) for a journal he is editing that
has kept me really busy, and i still am!  I have found it hard to
write, and hope that what I come up with is ok.  I will post the
address here once it is done.  It will of course not encroach on
the privacy of the groups we have had.

I have had dozens of Psyber-L posts fly through my mind but not
found the time to actually post them!  So I hope that you have
been getting them by esp, or zen.  Today's one was a comment on
seeing ads and articles each day scaring people into going
online:  e-commerce or die.  Go online or get left behind... this
is an interesting cultural phenomena to me, especially as i am
now working to get online learning happening in a post-graduate
course.  I have a sense of a new phase in the new era... panic.

~~~

> Robert, picking up on your post and web page describing your
> community project, I thought the following might be of interest.

Certainly looks of interest...


Walter


______________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:31:10 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Salutations!
In-Reply-To:  <su2hess8f0gqo9tmfgcsr5l5l0rmuvioku@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

At 12:36 am +1200 4/4/00, Walter Logeman wrote:
>Simon,
>
>   Re: [P] Psybernet Weblog
>   Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:44:22 +0100
>
>Nice to hear from you.

Ah, good to be in touch again, Walter, the spark of words once more
lighting the way...

>Zen, dead or dormant... I'll go with Zen!

Glad to hear it!


>The DreamEvent concluded a week or so ago.  I have been asked to
>write something about these groups by Richard Wilkerson (was a
>member here briefly years ago)

Years ago? Somehow it doesn't seem that long, but time is playing
funny tricks on me at the moment. Internet time has messed up my
intranet clock, I think!


>I have found it hard to
>write, and hope that what I come up with is ok.  I will post the
>address here once it is done.  It will of course not encroach on
>the privacy of the groups we have had.

So soon after the event, maybe too soon to process everything?


>I have had dozens of Psyber-L posts fly through my mind but not
>found the time to actually post them!  So I hope that you have
>been getting them by esp, or zen.

Well, something's been buzzing around for me...


>Today's one was a comment on
>seeing ads and articles each day scaring people into going
>online:  e-commerce or die.  Go online or get left behind...

Isn't this rather old rhetoric now? The message is more implicit than
explicit, at least in what I see now over here. The Internet is much
more part of the everyday fabric of our media-inscribed lives. Overt
scare tactics are too vulgar, it's more a case of the insidious
feeling of being left out... like the party's going on somewhere else
and if you're not online then you hear the echoes but that's all...
No-one needs to actually tell you that.

>  I have a sense of a new phase in the new era... panic.

I think there's just as much, if not more, panic in being online!
Everything's either unwinding or it's being wound too tight.

I can see the start of a phase shift in the way that material is made
available and regulated on the net. Beginning with Napster and
evolving now through programs like Wrapster and Gnutella and
countless variants, plus (the new) Divx video compression software
that's pushing movies towards the MP3 stage (with broadband net
access vectoring in from the other direction)... also the Free
Network Project (http://freenet.sourceforge.net/) and the philosophy
behind that...the whole peer-to-peer networking thing, and the
decentralised online 'swapshop' concept instead of the centralised
delivery paradigm. All of which has got a lot of people edgy.

Simon

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:59:57 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Salutations!
In-Reply-To:  <p04310100b50e7c6ef7de@[195.200.13.237]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon,

> >The DreamEvent concluded a week or so ago.  I have been asked to
> >write something about these groups by Richard Wilkerson (was a
> >member here briefly years ago)
>
> Years ago? Somehow it doesn't seem that long, but time is playing
> funny tricks on me at the moment. Internet time has messed up my
> intranet clock, I think!

I think it was 1996.  That is the third time in two days i have
heard the phrase Internet time.  It is weird.

Ten years ago it was the pleistocene.  I had a computer, with a
black on green monitor. It could do 40 characters on each line.
It took 5minutes for the word processor to launch.

Yet having conversations with people on line 5 years ago seems
like yesterday.  The conversations come in through the
finger-tips and through the retina. They are mirrored back
prefaced by > signs.  Occasionally they are revisited in a
search, or someone quotes them back. They imprint more thoroughly
than face to face discussions I think, at least for me.

The environment changes faster.  In the town where I grew up in
Australia, I watched the dirt roads get tar sealed, the trains
change from steam to electricity, the highway go from 2 to 6
lanes, the shops go from wooden sheds to neon lit extravaganzas.
That took about 40 years.  On the net the equivalent has taken
about five. The world is whizzing by faster, not just because i
am getting older, it actually whizes faster.

I sit in front of the screen to write an email.  Kate goes out to
do shopping, tend her horses and visit a friend.  While she is
out I search for a file, tend to a little disk tidying, check the
email and just as I begin the email she is back.  I have lived
for 10 minutes while she has lived for the whole afternoon.

~~~

> >I have found it hard to
> >write, and hope that what I come up with is ok.  I will post the
> >address here once it is done.  It will of course not encroach on
> >the privacy of the groups we have had.
>
> So soon after the event, maybe too soon to process everything?

I am writing something very generic, based on the first
DreamEvent as much as the second.  I began writing it before this
one was off the ground.  Actually Charles and i had a go at a
start of something in 1996.

~~~

> >Today's one was a comment on
> >seeing ads and articles each day scaring people into going
> >online:  e-commerce or die.  Go online or get left behind...
>
> Isn't this rather old rhetoric now? The message is more implicit than
> explicit, at least in what I see now over here. The Internet is much
> more part of the everyday fabric of our media-inscribed lives. Overt
> scare tactics are too vulgar, it's more a case of the insidious
> feeling of being left out... like the party's going on somewhere else
> and if you're not online then you hear the echoes but that's all...
> No-one needs to actually tell you that.

You are right about how that feels.  I feel it! I feel thoroughly
online but still it is happening around me in such waves of
change that I feel I could be missing something. Not necessary
the latest thing either... today i saw a post to a list with

|| h e a d i n g s   l i k e   t h i s

and with some fancy ascii (see below) I thought that was cool.  I
think that developing the plain text on the net is somehow more
profound than flashing HTML posts.  But I can appreciate good
examples of those too... where am i heading with this... still
the sense of being flooded by the new...


> >  I have a sense of a new phase in the new era... panic.
>
> I think there's just as much, if not more, panic in being online!
> Everything's either unwinding or it's being wound too tight.

That is it.  Wound, sprung.

> I can see the start of a phase shift in the way that material is made
> available and regulated on the net. Beginning with Napster and
> evolving now through programs like Wrapster and Gnutella and
> countless variants,

We should continue this conversation... this post is getting too
long!  But the idea of us all being servers and wrapping our
writing in XML and sharing all the time is an amazing thought!

> plus (the new) Divx video compression software
> that's pushing movies towards the MP3 stage (with broadband net
> access vectoring in from the other direction)... also the Free
> Network Project (http://freenet.sourceforge.net/) and the philosophy
> behind that...the whole peer-to-peer networking thing, and the
> decentralised online 'swapshop' concept instead of the centralised
> delivery paradigm. All of which has got a lot of people edgy.

I get quite excited... and i still want my email:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Walter

______________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:19:13 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Talking about the rate of change...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On the theme of Change... just saw this review:


~~~

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/026219418X/ref%3Dad%5Fb%5Fcy%5F2/104-1968388-8007641

The Internet Edge : Social, Legal, and Technological Challenges
for a Networked World
by Mark J. Stefik



Editorial Reviews


Amazon.com
It's hard enough keeping up with today's advances in technology
without worrying about tomorrow's--but that's always where the
action is. Xerox PARC scientist Mark Stefik gets paid to think
about and act on future technology, and his fascinating,
enjoyable report, The Internet Edge, shows us what we're becoming
as our information technology gets more ubiquitous and
transparent.

Suits and nerds alike will love his pragmatic, brainstorming
style that reaches back into our technological history to make
sense of the road ahead. Chapters cover portability, digital
commerce, publishing, privacy, and more, examining changes in the
breadth of our social experience as well as our work lives. What
will libraries look like in 10 years? What will "trust" mean in a
world of instant information access? Will we ever stop watching
television?

Stefik addresses these questions and goes beyond them to ask
about the meaning of rapid change in our lives: how will we cope?
He presents a convincing picture of a culture struggling with
inevitable transformation, with thousands of small changes
absorbed but not fully understood. Change is always stressful,
even the many new Net-derived benefits he describes. Our best
hope to survive the transition is deeper analysis of what's
happening to us and why, which you'll find in The Internet Edge.
--Rob Lightner

Book Description
"Mark Stefik puts Internet mania into perspective - we're all
teetering on the edge of a revolution. I found this a most
perceptive and thought-provoking read. You will, too." -- Vinton
G. Cerf, Sr. Vice President for Internet Architecture and
Technology, MCI WorldCom

Sometimes when we face change, we feel conflicting forces driving
us forward and pulling us back. This place of tension and
confusion can be called an "edge." The "Internet edge" is our
collective struggle to change as the world... read more

"Sometimes when we face change, we feel conflicting forces
driving us forward and pulling us back. This place of tension and
confusion can be called an "edge." The "Internet edge" is our
collective struggle to change as the world becomes more
connected."--BOOK JACKET.

About the Author
Mark Stefik is a Principal Scientist and Manager of the Human
Document Interactions Area at the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center
and adjunct member of the Secure Document Systems area. He is the
author of Internet Dreams (MIT Press, 1996).


______________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 6 Apr 2000 03:42:10 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Talking about the rate of change...
In-Reply-To:  <lhbmesg3i7rf4d304aidfhqicgb9s9ngbh@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="============_-1257133560==_ma============"

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At 12:19 am +1200 6/4/00, Walter Logeman wrote:
>On the theme of Change... just saw this review:

Also I notice this line on the related editorial reviews web page
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-reviews/026219418X/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_5/102-6169234-4593625

"Finally, it is about how old myths of magic, power, and control can
help us to understand our fascination and fear of new technologies."

I have a book by Steffik called 'Internet Dreams: Archteypes, Myths
and Metaphors'. Actually, it's more compiled by than written by him,
as it's mostly papers and extracts from papers by other people. But
he takes the interesting approach of framing the subject in terms of
four metaphors: Digital Library: The I-Way as Publishing and
Community Memory, Electronic Mail: The I-Way as a Communications
Medium, Electronic Marketplace: Selling Goods and Services on the
I-Way, and Digital Worlds: The I-Way as a Gateway to Experience. The
latter includes a long paper by someone called Barbara Viglizzo,
'Internet Dreams: First Encounters of an Online Dream Group' which I
am sure you would find interesting, Walter! But maybe you already
know the book?

Talking of online bookshops and the rate of change... (I feel a rant
coming on... :) ) my experience of online book ordering has left me
singularly unimpressed. I haven't ordered any books this way since
the order I placed in February of last year with the Internet
Bookshop, because what these people say about availability is
meaningless. Notice that these stores use phrases like 'Usually
ships' or 'Normally available'. These are total get-out clauses,
because actually they can't tell you anything about the actual
availability of the books until after you've placed your order. Books
that I was told were 'Normally available for dispatch' within 48
hours or 1-2 weeks turned out to be nothing of the sort, in fact some
of them weren't even in print, and one still hasn't been reprinted
more than a year later! How supremely ironic that in this supposedly
fast (and ever faster) moving Internet world I'm still waiting more
than a year on for a book that I was told would be available within
48 hours! If this is what 'Selling Goods and Services on the I-way'
means, I want none of it! Heaven help us if online bookstores take
over from the physical ones, where at least you can see what's on the
shelves, and the staff will look up the actual availability of books
not in stock and let you reserve rather than order copies. <sigh>

Simon









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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Talking about the rate of
change...</title></head><body>
<div>At 12:19 am +1200 6/4/00, Walter Logeman wrote:</div>
<div>&gt;On the theme of Change... just saw this review:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Also I notice this line on the related editorial reviews web
page http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/boo<span
></span>k-reviews/026219418X/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_5/102<span
></span>-6169234-4593625</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>&quot;<font color="#000000">Finally, it is about how old myths
of magic, power, and control can help us to understand our
fascination and fear of new technologies.&quot;</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000">I have a book by Steffik called 'Internet
Dreams: Archteypes, Myths and Metaphors'. Actually, it's more
compiled by than written by him, as it's mostly papers and extracts
from papers by other people. But he takes the interesting approach of
framing the subject in terms of four metaphors: Digital Library: The
I-Way as Publishing and Community Memory, Electronic Mail: The I-Way
as a Communications Medium, Electronic Marketplace: Selling Goods and
Services on the I-Way, and Digital Worlds: The I-Way as a Gateway to
Experience. The latter includes a long paper by someone called
Barbara Viglizzo, 'Internet Dreams: First Encounters of an Online
Dream Group' which I am sure you would find interesting, Walter! But
maybe you already know the book?</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000">Talking of online bookshops and the rate
of change... (I feel a rant coming on... :) ) my experience of online
book ordering has left me singularly unimpressed. I haven't ordered
any books this way since the order I placed in February of last year
with the Internet Bookshop, because what these people say about
availability is meaningless. Notice that these stores use phrases
like 'Usually ships' or 'Normally available'. These are total get-out
clauses, because actually they can't tell you anything about the
actual availability of the books until after you've placed your
order. Books that I was told were 'Normally available for dispatch'
within 48 hours or 1-2 weeks turned out to be nothing of the sort, in
fact some of them weren't even in print, and one still hasn't been
reprinted more than a year later! How supremely ironic that in this
supposedly fast (and ever faster) moving Internet world I'm still
waiting more than a year on for a book that I was told would be
available within 48 hours! If this is what 'Selling Goods and
Services on the I-way' means, I want none of it! Heaven help us if
online bookstores take over from the physical ones, where at least
you can see what's on the shelves, and the staff will look up the
actual availability of books not in stock and let you reserve rather
than order copies. &lt;sigh&gt;</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000">Simon</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font size="+1" color="#000000"><br></font></div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1257133560==_ma============--

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 6 Apr 2000 04:41:22 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Salutations!
In-Reply-To:  <ddamesce4asc2t4psnqp8phnpi9bkfjcn6@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

At 11:59 pm +1200 5/4/00, Walter Logeman wrote:
>I think it was 1996.

Goodness! That long ago??

>That is the third time in two days i have
>heard the phrase Internet time.  It is weird.

I remember when I was first on the Internet and spent long hours
hanging out in MOO world ... in the space of about four months I went
from newborn babe to old age! One month was like 15-20 years! That
was when I discovered Internet time was different ;)

>Ten years ago it was the pleistocene.  I had a computer, with a
>black on green monitor. It could do 40 characters on each line.
>It took 5minutes for the word processor to launch.

The first computer I used for writing work was a BBC Model B, with
usually a green on black monitor, sometimes orange on black. Programs
were user-installable on ROM chips, and the computers I used at work
had just one program, a word processor called Wordwise. When you
switched on the computer, the program was there onscreen instantly. I
still miss that instantaneous availability!

>Yet having conversations with people on line 5 years ago seems
>like yesterday.  The conversations come in through the
>finger-tips and through the retina. They are mirrored back
>prefaced by > signs.  Occasionally they are revisited in a
>search, or someone quotes them back. They imprint more thoroughly
>than face to face discussions I think, at least for me.

I think if you're a textual person, and used to living through the
imagination, then that ability to have conversations via onscreen
text, whether in real time or delayed as in email, can indeed imprint
strongly. I always remember having an online conversation with
someone about how we each 'saw' this MOO 'world'. We both were drawn
to this virtual textual world, but for him it was just a flat surface
that he gazed on and studied in a detached way (or at least so he
said!), whereas for me it was a mental and emotional 'deep imaginal
landscape' that I inhabited and lived (in).

>The environment changes faster.  In the town where I grew up in
>Australia, I watched the dirt roads get tar sealed, the trains
>change from steam to electricity, the highway go from 2 to 6
>lanes, the shops go from wooden sheds to neon lit extravaganzas.
>That took about 40 years.  On the net the equivalent has taken
>about five. The world is whizzing by faster, not just because i
>am getting older, it actually whizes faster.

That 'faster' is really about quicker and more drastic
reconfiguration, I think.

>I sit in front of the screen to write an email.  Kate goes out to
>do shopping, tend her horses and visit a friend.  While she is
>out I search for a file, tend to a little disk tidying, check the
>email and just as I begin the email she is back.  I have lived
>for 10 minutes while she has lived for the whole afternoon.

That actually sounds like your world is slowed down compared to hers.
Also, the way you put it, Kate's afternoon sounds more rewarding!

>I am writing something very generic, based on the first
>DreamEvent as much as the second.  I began writing it before this
>one was off the ground.  Actually Charles and i had a go at a
>start of something in 1996.

Yes, that rings a bell.

>You are right about how that feels.  I feel it! I feel thoroughly
>online but still it is happening around me in such waves of
>change that I feel I could be missing something. Not necessary
>the latest thing either...

Well, we're always missing something. How could it be otherwise?

>today i saw a post to a list with
>
>|| h e a d i n g s   l i k e   t h i s
>
>and with some fancy ascii (see below) I thought that was cool.  I
>think that developing the plain text on the net is somehow more
>profound than flashing HTML posts.

I agree wholeheartedly. We seem to be substituting unthinking
brashness and vulgarity for subtle invention and careful attention.

Sorry to keep coming back to this, but some of the ascii art that was
on the MOOs was just phenomenal and magical in its imagination and
depth.

>still the sense of being flooded by the new...

saturation incarceration eh... but actually, how much of this is
psychological construct and how much 'actual'?

>We should continue this conversation... this post is getting too
>long!  But the idea of us all being servers and wrapping our
>writing in XML and sharing all the time is an amazing thought!

Yes. the battles seem to be about individual or (in)corporation,
devolution or centralisation, one-way delivery or multi-way
exchange...

to digress a little...: in the UK now, the trend is definitely
towards devolution of power and identity to the regions... including
London! we want back (and looks like we'll get back) our independent
mayor and the right to make our own decisions about how our city is
tended to. logically enough, other cities will want the same, and
other regions will ( in fact, already) want more power to shape their
own destinies...

>I get quite excited... and i still want my email:
>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Couldn't agree more about text/plain. charset I would like to see
global-inclusive...

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:50:58 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Salutations!
In-Reply-To:  <p04310100b511aab74f34@[195.200.19.9]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon

> >I get quite excited... and i still want my email:
> >
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Couldn't agree more about text/plain. charset I would like to see
> global-inclusive...

That does sound good.  Never heard of it though. Is there such a
thing?  I just copied the above out of my header.  Here is yours:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

What is that "flowed" about?


Walter

More soon

______________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:32:19 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Salutations!
In-Reply-To:  <0qcoesgsciup6cllol4o0s0ine0gp4e980@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

At 6:50 pm +1200 6/4/00, Walter Logeman wrote:
>>  Couldn't agree more about text/plain. charset I would like to see
>>  global-inclusive...
>
>That does sound good.  Never heard of it though. Is there such a
>thing?

No, it was just a spot of 'poetic license'!

>What is that "flowed" about?

It was implemented in Mac Eudora beginning with v4.2. Basically it's
a way to support non-wrapped text (the Mac way) and wrapped text (the
PC way) in the same email message. The Mac standard is to only hard
wrap text at the end of each paragraph, but Mac emailers provide the
option to add line breaks to messages on send in order to comply with
the DOS/Windows approach. With format=flowed, text is still sent hard
wrapped per line (if enabled), but a space is added to the end of
each non-end line within a paragraph. Apparently this doesn't throw
PCs from displaying text in their normal way (so presumably you're
seeing this text displayed to a fixed width?), but at the same time
it allows Mac emailers that support format=flowed to distinguish
between line ends and paragraph ends in flowed email. The result is
that line length automatically adjusts ('flows') to the width of the
message window.

If you're interested, you can read up further on format=flowed at
http://www.eudora.com/techsupport/kb/1625hq.html ;the page also has a
link to the official format=flowed RFC if you want the full monty!

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:17:59 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Zenon Park, Saskatchewan
In-Reply-To:  <005501bf9588$dd646ba0$a865a58e@cyberie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert,

> You asked in reference to my story/post:
> > > http://rgl.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$5
> >
> > Interesting Robert.  Is this a project you have involvement with?
>
> Yes.  I am the one who heads this project.  I have done most of the work to
> obtain the grants and I have the authority/responsibility to set up the
> centre in the school in which I am principal.

How is it going Robert? Is it going as you wish? Feel free to
post up anything you are writing on that.

I am curious about the combination of the local face to face
meetings and the immediate link into the global, as well as the
most interesting of all, the use of digital communication to link
people who live close together.

I am in a group that meets face to face, and we also meet online.
The longest and most used thread is Re: f2f where we discuss
plans for the next meeting.  Every rl group should have its
virtual space I think, it is so easy to plan the meetings and
alter dates etc.


Walter
______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 8 Apr 2000 21:42:32 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Big Brother is the Network
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Continuing the battles/pressing issues theme...

'Big Brother is the Network':
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,35518,00.html

'Getting snooped on? Too bad':
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,35498,00.html?tw=wn20000407

To my mind these two reports neatly encapsulate the scary direction
that 'global mind' is headed under the powerful (unstoppable?)
influence of corporate governance.

Another worrying issue is terms of service affecting the control that
people do or don't have over their own posted material (text, music
etc). Also the trend for people's online interactions,  material
exchanges and 'owned goods' (eg. purchased music) to be increasingly
mediated and controlled by corporations eg. early signs of a move
away from music being stored locally towards an eventual situation
where it's stored 'in the network' (ie. in some third-party database)
and accessed over the network using an Internet appliance that's
hooked up 24/7 to the net via wireless broadband connection. If this
seems bizarre, I think it's worth bearing in mind that each
generation grows up with a new set of what it considers to be norms -
norms of thinking, norms of doing, norms of 'the way things are done'.

Having said that, there's the opposite trend, the 'decentralised' way
of thinking - the whole Napster etc phenomenon. Is there a middle
ground? Does 'protecting intellectual property' (if that property is
owned by a corporation rather than an individual, that is) only mean
centralisation and all the dangers that that entails? Does
decentralisation only mean the dismantling of intellectual property
protection?

When it comes down to it, who 'owns' our ways of thinking, our very
thoughts even?

Along these lines, this site has some, er, thought-provoking material:

'Language in the New Capitalism':
http://www.uoc.es/humfil/nlc/LNC-ENG/lnc-eng.html

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:21:18 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Zenon Park, Saskatchewan
In-Reply-To:  <q19uesk3jtgh3og0cbe11cjr5tprq78cq2@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

At 1:17 am +1200 9/4/00, Walter Logeman wrote:
>I am curious about the combination of the local face to face
>meetings and the immediate link into the global, as well as the
>most interesting of all, the use of digital communication to link
>people who live close together.

Walter, Robert,

There was a program on TV here a few weeks back that followed the
Internet adventures of a street of people. The production company
behind the program had loaned every household in the (short!) street
a PC, got them hooked up to the Internet, and for the week-long
experiment paid their Internet access phone bills. Also, they
specifically chose a street in the area of the country with the
lowest Internet takeup (I think it was Sunderland). As part of this
experiment they also set up a web chat board for the residents, and
gave them all anonymous access. One of the many interesting findings
to come out of this experiment was that having this Internet meeting
place and its associated anonymity actually got people together in
physical space. People who in their normal day-to-day lives kept to
themselves and never spoke to one another ended up arranging a
get-together in the local pub.

It's a myth, isn't it, that community exists these days in the
physical world, that people living in a street somehow all know one
another and live intertwined daily lives. Maybe in small village
communities, though even there traditional communities are breaking
down due to economic factors - town-dwellers are moving out to the
country, forcing up house prices, young locals can't afford to live
locally any more... Sorry, this is a UK perspective, it's maybe not
the same elsewhere. Anyay, continuing in this perspective, there's
much less trust these days, much more fear of crime, much less of a
sense of commonality and therefore of community. Local(ised)
community, anyway. There's community based on commonality of
interests, of course, but that's different, less 'frictionalised'.

>I am in a group that meets face to face, and we also meet online.
>The longest and most used thread is Re: f2f where we discuss
>plans for the next meeting.  Every rl group should have its
>virtual space I think, it is so easy to plan the meetings and
>alter dates etc.

This is a commonality-of-interest community, Walter? The online
aspect sounds utilitarian. Is there more that happens? A different
quality of communication online and f2f? Do interactions follow the
same patterns in both situations? I guess if there's no anonymity of
identity then the same patterns hold. One of the interesting issues
in groupware is the impact of anonymous-identity communication, it
can be a way to break down institutionalised barriers to
inter-communication.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 22 Apr 2000 17:17:20 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Greg <Marshkan@AOL.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Greg,

This is coming to you straight from the list.  Thank you for the interesting
intro, which i have added below.  I hope you enjoy being in this group.

As you are probably aware this is not a Jung group per se, however I think most
of us here have a lot of respect for Jung.

The quest here is to explore how the Net relates to and effects our psyche...
what ever we have come to know it to be.  Occasionally we have posts that tackle
that directly, mostly we enter into the net with that question in mind and
simple notice what happens while we are here.  That is how I see it, not wishing
to speak for others.

Of late I have been exploring many aspects of the Net and psyche away from this
Psyber-L... I have a new "WebLog" which brings some pleasure as well as angst.
(see Link in my sig.) I am also noticing that as the net moves away from the PC
into other gadgets, and I begin to think of everything being more "connected"
and my "data" being stored online... how that definitely impacts my sense of
self.

Just a thought, welcome to this group.  Explore the archives and please post
more about your experiences!

I hope other's also welcome you!


Walter

~~~

Greg's intro follows:

~~~

Hello,

I am attracted to this list, in part, because of the brief description I read
on Psybernet.  Especially appreciated was the quote from Thomas Moore's Care
of the Soul. I had the wonderful opportunity to meet and have lunch with Tom
Moore last week, prior to his lecture in my city where I am on the board of
the local Friends of Jung group.

While not a professional psychotherapist or practitioner, I have become quite
familiar with Jung's works which I have studied for over 15 years. Having
been in analysis for 2 and having participated with great joy and pleasure in
another Jung-related cyber group for the past two years, I hope to find a
similar camaraderie here among fellow questers.

Few things in life as important as one's attention to and care of psyche, in
all its manifestations.

Greg

______________
Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz
WebLog: http://psybernet.editthispage.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:56:30 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      In the midst of a shift
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Psyber-Lers

I have been doing a weblog for a few months and have found that I get more
involved with it as I go on.  Partly my interest is in exploring something new
that I think will have a major impact on how we communicate on line!  I began
with a BBS in the early 90s, and moved to the Web and mailing lists  a few years
later, and have had a website since then, I have, it seems an itch to explore on
and on.  Weblogs are web pages really, easy to update, with a default format.
The links on http://www.psybernet.co.nz/links.htm were much harder to do
maintain, and hence I lost interest. The weblog is livelier, there is more room
for interaction and feedback.

The way they update by default lends to a diary structure, so I find myself
linking and annotating links each day, adding some personal notes... wondering
what is actually happening to me as this new tool has its influence.  It is not
just the tool though, there is also the influence of the other logs around, I am
influenced in the *use* of the tool.  I feel less isolated as i see other
webloggers with the same urges to do what I do.  It strikes me it can be used
for many things we have not dreamt of yet.

Maybe this is the next generation of the internet... think of what is happening:
I can set up a web page even if I do not have a computer, or an internet
account.  I use tools that live online "in the sky", I store my data online.
Journals, images, music, with the tools for manipulating them improving by the
day!  Microsoft is heading this way!

I think this tool has made me think of my main store of files... my virtual self
as being in cyberspace, as easily accessible from my Desktop as my Laptop or my
Palm, or any connected machine anywhere, specialist machines even, players,
cameras, viewers (why do I keep thinking toasters?).  "Think" is the main word
here, nothing much has changed, but I am in the midst of a shift in how I feel
and think.

http://psybernet.editthispage.com


Walter
______________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html




