From walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ Thu Dec 02 15:01:36 1999
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Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject: Facilitating and participating
Comments: To: roles@lists.groupsense.co.nz
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Hi all in psyber-l,

One discussion that has resulted from the dreamevent is the
extent to which a facilitator should also be a participant of an
online group, such as the dreamevent.  What I have in the doc is
this:

|  I will aim to ensure
|  that we respect the purpose of the group and the participation
|  and privacy guidelines.  I will also attend to the time structure
|  of the event.
|
|  As we will be using the HipBone Games I will offer guidance and
|  information to assist in this aspect of the group. I will edit
|  the Dreamevent document, which will be private to the group.
|
|  I expect to be a member and full participant in the group.

It is interesting that I should put in that last line. I would
not do it in a f2f group... it has got me thinking.

I've come up with two main ideas on this:

1.  It is not so different from f2f after all.  The participation
happens there too.

2.  There are some differences resulting from the contours of
cyberspace.


It would be a strange party where the host was not also part of
the celebrations.  Yet the host needs to be a good (what is the
right word here? I don't mean nice or restrained) participant.

There are models of groupwork where the group therapist is very
restrained.  There are others, such as psychodrama where there is
a specific slot, in the sharing after a drama, where the director
explicitly shares personal experience.

Keeping away from the "therapy" model, and thinking of the psyche
as an something objective to be explored, perhaps like white
water rafting, then there is a guide, who must be a participant,
by the very nature of the job, along with all the other roles.

On the other hand, there are some factors that make online
asynchronous communication like email, and possibly synchronous
communication like IRC or ICQ chat, quite different from anything
we can do offline. Facilitation online demands participation.

One reason is that there is not a physical space in which to have
silence. There was a group once, that met f2f everyday for 136
days and sat in silence, stalemated. I am guessing at the days
and the facts here, but it is a true story. I think it was a
committee set up to negotiate peace, was it in the Korean war, or
vietnam?  Imagine the tension and the consciousness of that
silence!  I can feel the tension in an online group for a week or
so, but then it feels like the group goes stale somehow.  It can
always be revived, even years later, but it dies after a certain
time.

To keep a group open, to build its virtual walls, the host must
post.  But what?  In a f2f group, we might hear the familiar
invitations... Let's hear from everyone. Online that might be
good too.  Its not enough.  Why would anyone want to be in such a
group?  It needs life! So, an interesting post, which furthers
the purpose of the group is the wtg.

And there are more reasons why leaders (what ever type) can
participate online, where in the situation in physical meetings
might call for a more distant approach.

There are contours here in cs which do not have physical
equivalents.  The time twist is one. Posts can be made days
apart.  There is time between. Posts are condensations of
experience, one hour to write, 5 minutes to read.  I what f2f
group does the leader have the luxury of opportunity for
meditation, reflection, supervision and so on for every
contribution?  If there are transferences and
countertransferences they can be attended to in a way that one
can't do with physical presence... imagine it, excuse me for a
moment while I cathart!

Another contour is the identity between the fact or the
communication and the record of the communication.  The posts
have distinct individual reality. They are each, unique distinct
packages. They can be linked to. They can be copied. They have a
length, a time stamp, a line length, a subject line. In other
words they have a body language.  How does this contour relate to
the participation facilitation theme?  The physical presence of
the body in a group is very fundamental participation.  The
online body is the email body.

I think there are other factors at work here, perhaps to do with
the nature of symbols, or the nature of imagination that make a
difference... I can feel something at work that I can't put words
to.

Of course there must be a counter story to all of this.  That in
some cases, perhaps all, we need a better boundary between
facilitation and participation online.  I'd be interested to
hear.


Walter

PS I wrote this with Psyber-L in mind but have also posted it to
the Roles group.






__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html




From walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ Sun Dec 05 11:24:52 1999
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Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject: Hidden intent
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
In-Reply-To: <v01550121b46d3b3ad2b7@[207.54.160.133]>
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Judith

Re: == Psybernet Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000 ==
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:29:29 -0500


Good to year from you.

Your story, your life incident, with its sustaining aha, shows
how the literal can be seen as symbolic, and it is interesting.

How important it is for you, that your system learns to
distinguish the goodies from the baddies!  And then right there
you manage to distinguish a lot, the forgetfulness from the
hidden intention, and the symbolic from the literal. I believe it
was Brian Eno who used the phrase "hidden intention" with respect
to making music.  "See mistakes as hidden intention".

Reflecting on this process of distinguishing I am thinking who it
is that knows the symbolic meaning of these things.  I seem to
have a belief that the "dreamer" knows (in a way you were
dreaming!) But that is not the whole story, as a dream can carry
so much meaning long before we know it!  But when we know it we
*do* know it.

I am still intrigued by the symbolic aspects of your incident.

Carry
Heavy
shoes
repair
purse
hand

all these words spring to life for me if I look at their symbolic
aspects... though i do not presume to know a thing about what
they mean in your incident.

All the best, and trust that hidden intent! Keep up the sorting
and packing :)


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html




From utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ Sun Dec 05 22:48:20 1999
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Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: Relationships or Fw: find miles' photo's here (you choose..)
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hey all !

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
> All,
> oops, sorry...I just hit 'sent' instead of 'reply'


I think this might have been what happend to me too..
(hence my long silence)


Anyway, I can't seem to find the exact email,
 in fact.. from where
 I wanted to continue on, but=20
  - computers... YKNow ?!!!
 =20
 what the hey.


> that hidden intention stuff you've all
been talking about.. I thought that was cool.<

Only sometimes, for me, it doesn't quite work out
sortof how you you would wish.

I mean.I do like the sound of it,
sortof abdigating control.. like what
I had been about to do here...
>
from the literal. I believe it
was Brian Eno who used the phrase "hidden intention" with respect
to making music.  "See mistakes as hidden intention".
>
except I can't find it because my 'psybernet' folder is,
for some stupid reason, almost empty,

sitting there.... staring back up at me,,

hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

anyway.. I've (finally) posted some pictures of=20
this beautiful building La Pededra which is
where I had this dream about.. wit me and my fiancee,
and we were sitting under it


Heres some photos we took a the time.. They just happen
to be some ones that I've just got back from the developers..

  looking up at La Pededra=20
  .
  also looking up at La Pededra=20
  .
  spiral staircase in La Segrada Familia


BTW. I sort of uploaded them to the 'psybernet=20
testing testing testing' vault thing..

http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/


Yes indeed, I also want to experiment with this medium.

(this is an "HTML" email... pleas tell me if it
doesn't work !! )


------------

Walter you're dream of being high in the mountains..
I wantd to say that I
also had a similar )???( dream a long time ago once,

 -  well it was about the mountains, anyway.


pecifically, it was in
the amazingly high=20
http://www.met.co.nz/home/products/oaod/sat/sat00.html
mountains up above Arthurs Pass
 http://www.ski.net.nz/gallery/alps.htm

(, around below Temple Basin
up in the Southern Alps like) , and there
was this really really high high ledge
(it wasn't snow covered, lower down,
all ice and waterfall crevasse type
thing) and anyway I  just
jumped right off it, but it didn't
matter 'cause I was already dead, like.. which was really cool..

Actually it was a *wikedly&*( intense dream=20
 - kinda like some sort of mix=20
between Highlinder (the original) and
American Werewolf in London.=20

All my skin was coming off me.. which totally=20
freaked me right out, but it was cool.

I meane, I was still walking around, and I didn't see
any dead people, and I sorta decided i'd
make it like everyone I knew or liked was still around
only everyone else wasn't...=20

and then I went up to heaven, and it
turned out that that was actually really
dull because everyone was just standing around at
these big grey videogame consoles, doing nothing and
all grey like a total fog out..=20

then i went back down to hell, and got this wicked sense
of darkness and like utterly dead blackness, which was
the wickedly intense part which I experienced again
some nights even, whilst walking around on high
high counrty roads at night.. with the cool cool air

Hmm.. that's some sort of association anyway..


------------------------


Cheryl... Was it you ?

I just want to say - Go To BudaPest....

It was the totaly bestest place of all..

I really loved it..

And when you do.. you will of course
visit the Turkish Baths they have there..

do.


the'yre really cool.

--------------------------
Great dream too..


Oh yeah..=20
              ....      if you are still reading..

               )_ the pictures are here _(


----- Original Message -----=20
From: Miles Thompson=20
To: testingtestingtesting@eGroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 10:24 PM
Subject: find miles' photo's here


  .
  looking up at La Pededra=20
  .
  also looking up at La Pededra=20
  .
  spiral staircase in La Segrada Familia=20
Dunno if you want to do this,, but if you like..


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

To Post a message, send it to:   testingtestingtesting@eGroups.com To =
Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: =
testingtestingtesting-unsubscribe@eGroups.com=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Hey all !</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>From: Cheryl Foltos &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:cfolt@COINET.COM">cfolt@COINET.COM</A>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt; All,<BR>&gt; oops, =
sorry...I just hit=20
'sent' instead of 'reply'<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>I think this might have been =
what happend=20
to me too..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">(hence my long silence)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Anyway, I can't seem to find =
the exact=20
email,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;in fact.. from =
where</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;I wanted to continue on, =
but=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;- computers... =
YKNow=20
?!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;what the hey.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt; that hidden intention =
stuff you've=20
all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>been talking </FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>about.. I thought that was =
cool.&lt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Only sometimes, for me, it =
doesn't quite=20
work out</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>sortof how you you would =
wish.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>I mean.I do like the sound of=20
it,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">sortof abdigating control.. like =
what</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">I&nbsp;had been about to do =
here...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&gt;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>from the literal. I believe =
it<BR>was Brian=20
Eno who used the phrase "hidden intention" with respect<BR>to making=20
music.&nbsp; "See mistakes as hidden intention".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&gt;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>except I can't find it because =
my=20
'psybernet' folder is,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>for some stupid reason, almost=20
empty,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>sitting there.... staring back =
up at=20
me,,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss</FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>anyway.. I've (finally) posted =
some=20
pictures of </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>this beautiful building La =
Pededra which=20
is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>where I had this dream about.. =
wit me and=20
my fiancee,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>and we were&nbsp;sitting under=20
it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Heres some photos we took a the time.. They just happen</DIV>
<DIV>to be some ones that I've just got back from the developers..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<UL><A href=3D"/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.jpg">looking =
up at La=20
  Pededra </A></UL>
<UL>.</UL>
<UL><A href=3D"/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.jpg">also =
looking up=20
  at La Pededra </A></UL>
<UL>.</UL>
<UL><A href=3D"/docvault/testingtestingtesting/spiral.jpg">spiral =
staircase in=20
  La Segrada Familia</A></UL></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>BTW. I sort of uploaded them to the 'psybernet </DIV>
<DIV>testing testing testing' vault thing..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/">http://ww=
w.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/</A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com"></A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Yes indeed, I also want to experiment with this medium.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>(this is an "HTML" email... pleas tell me if it</DIV>
<DIV>doesn't work !! )</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>------------</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Walter you're dream of being =
high in the=20
mountains..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>I wantd to say that =
I</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>also had a similar )???( dream =
a long time=20
ago once,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;- &nbsp;well it was about =
the=20
mountains, anyway.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>pecifically, it was =
in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>the amazingly high =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.met.co.nz/home/products/oaod/sat/sat00.html">http://ww=
w.met.co.nz/home/products/oaod/sat/sat00.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>mountains <FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>up above Arthurs=20
Pass</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;<A=20
href=3D"http://www.ski.net.nz/gallery/alps.htm">http://www.ski.net.nz/gal=
lery/alps.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>(,&nbsp;around below Temple=20
Basin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>up in the Southern Alps like) , =
and=20
there</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>was this&nbsp;really really =
high high=20
ledge</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>(it wasn't snow covered, lower=20
down,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>all ice and waterfall crevasse=20
type</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>thing)&nbsp;and anyway I&nbsp;=20
just</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>jumped right off it, but it=20
didn't</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>matter 'cause&nbsp;I was =
already dead,=20
like.. which was really cool..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Actually it was =
a&nbsp;*wikedly&amp;*(=20
intense dream </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;- kinda like some sort of =
mix=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>between Highlinder (the =
original)=20
and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>American Werewolf in=20
London.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>All my skin was =
coming</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2> off me.. which&nbsp;totally </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>freaked me right out, but it =
was=20
cool.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>I meane, I was still walking =
around, and I=20
didn't see</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>any dead people, and I sorta =
decided=20
i'd</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>make it like everyone I knew or =
liked was=20
still around</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>only everyone else wasn't... =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>and then I went up to=20
heaven,&nbsp;and&nbsp;it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>turned out that that&nbsp;was =
actually=20
really</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>dull because everyone was just =
standing=20
around at</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>these big grey videogame =
consoles, doing=20
nothing and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>all grey like a total fog out.. =

</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>then i went back down to hell, and got this wicked sense</DIV>
<DIV>of darkness and like utterly dead blackness, which was</DIV>
<DIV>the wickedly intense part which I experienced again</DIV>
<DIV>some nights even, whilst walking around on high</DIV>
<DIV>high counrty roads at night.. with the cool cool air</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Hmm.. that's some sort of =
association=20
anyway..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>------------------------</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Cheryl... Was it you ?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I just want to say - Go To BudaPest....</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It was the totaly bestest place of all..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I&nbsp;really loved it..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>And when you do.. you will of course</DIV>
<DIV>visit the Turkish Baths they have there..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>do.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>the'yre really cool.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>--------------------------</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Great dream too..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Oh yeah.. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
....&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if you are still =
reading..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
)_ the pictures are here _(</FONT></DIV></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:miles@mail.com" title=3Dmiles@mail.com>Miles Thompson</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:testingtestingtesting@eGroups.com"=20
title=3Dtestingtestingtesting@eGroups.com>testingtestingtesting@eGroups.c=
om</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 05, 1999 10:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> find miles' photo's here</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<UL>.</UL>
<UL><A href=3D"/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.jpg">looking =
up at La=20
  Pededra </A></UL>
<UL>.</UL>
<UL><A href=3D"/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.jpg">also =
looking up=20
  at La Pededra </A></UL>
<UL>.</UL>
<UL><A href=3D"/docvault/testingtestingtesting/spiral.jpg">spiral =
staircase in=20
  La Segrada Familia </A></UL>
<DIV>Dunno if you want to do this,, but if you like..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<HR>

<DIV>To Post a message, send it to:&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:testingtestingtesting@eGroups.com">testingtestingtesting@e=
Groups.com</A>=20
To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:testingtestingtesting-unsubscribe@eGroups.com">testingtest=
ingtesting-unsubscribe@eGroups.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0082_01BF3F72.D4248CD0--

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From utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ Sun Dec 05 22:53:33 1999
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Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:53:33 +1300
Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: Rela -- Find miles' photo's here
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_008E_01BF3F73.8ED62110
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Another HTML email

Forgot to put the http://www.egroups.com bit in,

Try this..

  Heres some photos we took a the time.. They just happen
  to be some ones that I've just got back from the developers..

    looking up at La Pededra=20
    .
    also looking up at La Pededra=20
    .
    spiral staircase in La Segrada Familia


  BTW. I sort of uploaded them to the 'psybernet=20
  testing testing testing' vault thing..

  http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/=20

Yes indeed, I also want to experiment with this medium.

  Suprise me !!

  It didn't work..=20

  And I do this for a living..
  (this is an "HTML" email... pleas tell me if it
  doesn't work !! )


  ------------

  Walter you're dream of being high in the mountains..
  I wantd to say that I
  also had a similar )???( dream a long time ago once,

   -  well it was about the mountains, anyway.


  pecifically, it was in
  the amazingly high=20
  http://www.met.co.nz/home/products/oaod/sat/sat00.html
  mountains up above Arthurs Pass
   http://www.ski.net.nz/gallery/alps.htm
  =20
  (, around below Temple Basin
  up in the Southern Alps like) , and there
  was this really really high high ledge
  (it wasn't snow covered, lower down,
  all ice and waterfall crevasse type
  thing) and anyway I  just
  jumped right off it, but it didn't
  matter 'cause I was already dead, like.. which was really cool..

  Actually it was a *wikedly&*( intense dream=20
   - kinda like some sort of mix=20
  between Highlinder (the original) and
  American Werewolf in London.=20
  =20
  All my skin was coming off me.. which totally=20
  freaked me right out, but it was cool.

  I meane, I was still walking around, and I didn't see
  any dead people, and I sorta decided i'd
  make it like everyone I knew or liked was still around
  only everyone else wasn't...=20

  and then I went up to heaven, and it
  turned out that that was actually really
  dull because everyone was just standing around at
  these big grey videogame consoles, doing nothing and
  all grey like a total fog out..=20

  then i went back down to hell, and got this wicked sense
  of darkness and like utterly dead blackness, which was
  the wickedly intense part which I experienced again
  some nights even, whilst walking around on high
  high counrty roads at night.. with the cool cool air

  Hmm.. that's some sort of association anyway..


  ------------------------


  Cheryl... Was it you ?

  I just want to say - Go To BudaPest....

  It was the totaly bestest place of all..

  I really loved it..

  And when you do.. you will of course
  visit the Turkish Baths they have there..

  do.


  the'yre really cool.

  --------------------------
  Great dream too..


  Oh yeah..=20
                ....      if you are still reading..

                 )_ the pictures are here _(


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Miles Thompson=20
  To: testingtestingtesting@eGroups.com=20
  Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 10:24 PM
  Subject: find miles' photo's here


    .
    looking up at La Pededra=20
    .
    also looking up at La Pededra=20
    .
    spiral staircase in La Segrada Familia=20


  Miles Thompson

   your homeboy  =20
      - miles@mail.com -

   your get away back home!, boy=20
      - miles@funmail.co.uk -

   http://switch.to/miles
   +64 4385 3289=20



------=_NextPart_000_008E_01BF3F73.8ED62110
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Another =
HTML=20
email</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Forgot to put the <A=20
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com">http://www.egroups.com</A> bit =
in,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Try this..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Heres some photos we took a the =
time.. They just=20
  happen</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to be some ones that I've just got =
back from the=20
  developers..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>
  <UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
    href=3D"/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.jpg">looking up =
at La=20
    Pededra </A></FONT></UL>
  <UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>.</FONT></UL>
  <UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
    href=3D"/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.jpg">also looking =
up at La=20
    Pededra </A></FONT></UL>
  <UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>.</FONT></UL>
  <UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
    href=3D"/docvault/testingtestingtesting/spiral.jpg">spiral staircase =
in La=20
    Segrada Familia</A></FONT></UL></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>BTW. I sort of uploaded them to =
the=20
  'psybernet </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>testing testing testing' vault=20
  thing..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/">http://ww=
w.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/</A><A=20
  href=3D"http://www.egroups.com"></A></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><PRE>Yes indeed, I =
also want to experiment with this medium.</PRE>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Suprise me !!</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It didn't work.. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And I do this for a=20
  living..</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(this is an "HTML" email... pleas =
tell me if=20
  it</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>doesn't work !! )</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>------------</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walter you're dream of being high in =
the=20
  mountains..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I wantd to say that I</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>also had a similar )???( dream a long =
time ago=20
  once,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;- &nbsp;well it was about the =
mountains,=20
  anyway.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>pecifically, it was in</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the amazingly high </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.met.co.nz/home/products/oaod/sat/sat00.html">http://ww=
w.met.co.nz/home/products/oaod/sat/sat00.html</A></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>mountains up above Arthurs =
Pass</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;<A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.ski.net.nz/gallery/alps.htm">http://www.ski.net.nz/gal=
lery/alps.htm</A></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(,&nbsp;around below Temple =
Basin</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>up in the Southern Alps like) , and=20
  there</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>was this&nbsp;really really high high =

  ledge</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(it wasn't snow covered, lower =
down,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>all ice and waterfall crevasse =
type</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>thing)&nbsp;and anyway I&nbsp; =
just</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>jumped right off it, but it =
didn't</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>matter 'cause&nbsp;I was already =
dead, like..=20
  which was really cool..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Actually it was =
a&nbsp;*wikedly&amp;*( intense=20
  dream </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;- kinda like some sort of mix =
</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>between Highlinder (the original)=20
and</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>American Werewolf in =
London.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All my skin was coming off me..=20
  which&nbsp;totally </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>freaked me right out, but it was=20
  cool.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I meane, I was still walking around, =
and I didn't=20
  see</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>any dead people, and I sorta decided=20
  i'd</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>make it like everyone I knew or liked =
was still=20
  around</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>only everyone else wasn't... =
</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and then I went up to=20
  heaven,&nbsp;and&nbsp;it</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>turned out that that&nbsp;was =
actually=20
  really</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>dull because everyone was just =
standing around=20
  at</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>these big grey videogame consoles, =
doing nothing=20
  and</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>all grey like a total fog out.. =
</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>then i went back down to hell, and =
got this=20
  wicked sense</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>of darkness and like utterly dead =
blackness,=20
  which was</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the wickedly intense part which I =
experienced=20
  again</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>some nights even, whilst walking =
around on=20
  high</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>high counrty roads at night.. with =
the cool cool=20
  air</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hmm.. that's some sort of association =

  anyway..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>------------------------</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cheryl... Was it you ?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I just want to say - Go To=20
  BudaPest....</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It was the totaly bestest place of=20
  all..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I&nbsp;really loved it..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And when you do.. you will of =
course</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>visit the Turkish Baths they have=20
  there..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>do.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the'yre really cool.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>--------------------------</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Great dream too..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Oh yeah.. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  ....&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if you are still =
reading..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  )_ the pictures are here _(</FONT></DIV><BR>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:miles@mail.com" title=3Dmiles@mail.com>Miles =
Thompson</A> </DIV>
  <DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:testingtestingtesting@eGroups.com"=20
  =
title=3Dtestingtestingtesting@eGroups.com>testingtestingtesting@eGroups.c=
om</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 05, 1999 10:24 PM</DIV>
  <DIV><B>Subject:</B> find miles' photo's here</DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <UL>.</UL>
  <UL><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.=
jpg">looking=20
    up at La Pededra </A></UL>
  <UL>.</UL>
  <UL><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.=
jpg">also=20
    looking up at La Pededra </A></UL>
  <UL>.</UL>
  <UL><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/spiral.jpg"=
>spiral=20
    staircase in La Segrada Familia </A></UL>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Miles Thompson</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;your homeboy&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - <A =
href=3D"mailto:miles@mail.com">miles@mail.com</A>=20
  -</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;your get away back home!, boy=20
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:miles@funmail.co.uk">miles@funmail.co.uk</A> =
-</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;<A=20
  =
href=3D"http://switch.to/miles">http://switch.to/miles</A><BR>&nbsp;+64 =
4385=20
  3289 <BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ Sun Dec 05 22:55:50 1999
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Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:55:50 +1300
Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: Rela -- Find miles' photo's here
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

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Apologies for the long self-quote, in my last email,
I accidentally pressed "ctrl-return" in Outlook..

 it just suddenly sent my email
 without even asking me
bizzarre...
to experiment with this medium.

    Suprise me !!

    It didn't work..=20





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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Apologies for the long self-quote, in =
my last=20
email,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I accidentally pressed "ctrl-return" in =

Outlook..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;it just suddenly sent=20
my&nbsp;email</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;without even asking =
me</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>bizzarre...</FONT></DIV></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"><PRE>to =
experiment with this medium.</PRE>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Suprise me !!</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It didn't work.. </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY=
></HTML>

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From utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ Wed Dec 08 12:32:48 1999
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Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: Rela -- Find miles' photo's here
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Apologies to all for sending HTML/RTF formatted
email to this list.. (which is, of course, against
the guidelines)

It was ill-conceived and rude of me.

Cheryl there is nothing wrong with your email program,
it was me.

----- Original Message -----
From: Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
> Miles,
> FYI - Six of the last seven of your posts have not come through.

Like i say, sorry about that..


-----

If you do want to see the photos, the
following is how I wish I
had done it the first time...

---

Two are of La Pededra, the building
under which, in my dream ( see 'Dream' thread ),
I sat and drank coffee with my
partner, looked up and thought - wow cool..

http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra2.jpg
http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.jpg

How solid, yes... but how ethereal as well.

The photos are taken by myself at night,
looking up, a month or two ago.

The last photo is of, yes, a stair case, in La Sagrada Familia..
http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/spiral.jpg

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From cfolt@COINET.COM Thu Dec 09 06:21:42 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:21:42 -0800
Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Rela -- Find miles' photo's here
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Miles,
It's easy to confuse me regarding things virtual and cybernetic
and e-anything but when I went to look at the photos (and I am
about to give up here) I was sent to eGroups which asked me for
a password which to the best of my memory(which isn't always
very good at any rate and I apologize in advance if I actually
know something that I can't remember I know or don't know I know)but
the long and short of it is - I don't seem to have a password
to view these things and it's probably not so important anyway
but  now what's got me wondering - and this is for Walter I guess,
do we need a password for the dream event and did I give myself
one when signing up - I don't think I did, can't remember if
I did - see above - but if I need one how do I retrieve it or
do I need to start over - oh drat the complications of being
e-literate.

Miles,
And just a little response from the one post of yours that did
come through recently - I felt ashamed to be an American -I guess
I know in the abstract that 'as a group' we are not so well liked
in other parts of the world but your post created in me a bit
of humiliation and shame like perhaps you would automatically
judge me also just because of what section of the globe I live
on. I haven't experienced much national bias in my life on a
one-to-one level but it sure feels awful - like, it creates a
feeling of 'I don't want to relate to you either' if that's how
you feel about me as an American. Yucky. How unfortunate to be
so identified with one's country of origin. Didn't know I had
those feelings. Thanks for bringing them up. Always useful to
know more about oneself.
Cheryl


-----
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From utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ Sun Dec 05 22:59:43 1999
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Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: Find miles' photo's here <<-- This one
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

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  l
    l
  up at La...
  oh my goodness.. it didn't work.
  One last time -- this better work:
  Looking up at La Pededra=20
  .
  also looking up at La Pededra=20
  .
  spiral staircase in La Segrada Familia



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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.=
jpg">l</A></FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
  <UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.=
jpg">l</A></FONT></UL>up=20
  at La...</FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>oh my goodness.. it didn't =
work.</FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One last time -- this better =
work:</FONT></UL>
<UL>
  <UL></UL>
  <UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></UL><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>
  <UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.=
jpg"></A></FONT></UL><U><FONT=20
  color=3D#800080>Looking up at La Pededra</FONT></U> </FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>.</FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.=
jpg">also=20
  looking up at La Pededra </A></FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>.</FONT></UL>
<UL><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/spiral.jpg"=
>spiral=20
  staircase in La Segrada Familia</A></FONT></UL></DIV>
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Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:04:08 +1300
Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: Rela -- Find miles' photo's here <-- last one i promise
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Miles......... grrr...

Please post your email in plain text,
on psyber-l.

like this...

http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra2.jpg
http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/lapededra1.jpg
http://www.egroups.com/docvault/testingtestingtesting/spiral.jpg


Apologies to all..

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From aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA Mon Dec 06 04:07:54 1999
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Rela -- Find miles' photo's here <-- last one i promise
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
In-Reply-To: <00de01bf3f08$126b66a0$0201a8c0@localdomain>
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Miles,

The photos came through quite well.  Thank you for these.  Was the photo
*spiral* a set of stairs?

Robert

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From utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ Mon Dec 06 18:15:34 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:15:34 +1300
Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: Rela -- Find miles' photo's here <-- last one i promise
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Hey Robert..

> The photos came through quite well.  Thank you for these.  Was the photo
> *spiral* a set of stairs?


yeah.. spiral.jpg is of a stair case.. looking up one
of the towers in La Sagrada Familia which is a
most awesome cathedral still under construction
in Barcelona. Actually by the same Architect, Gaudi.

Hey look! Someone else scanned pics in so I don't
have too...
http://www.pcez.com/~elford/Europe/barcelona/sagrad.html


Actually we walked down the stair case.. which as you can
see from this photo..
http://www.pcez.com/~elford/Europe/barcelona/sagYikeB.jpg
is a bloody scarey thing to do..

Still - it was either that or take the lift back down with
a gaggle of Americans, who .. well ..

<off topic tirade>
no disrepect to American citizens
generally, but oh my goodnes.. why do some
of those American tourists even bother
going to Europe if they insist on
learning nothing about the
amazing miracles and mysteries
they (apparently) go there to
 discover,  ( in fact Senor Gaudi has been
nominated for sainthood - which I think
he would deservere !!:-)

and in fact, loudly proclaiming their
own closemindedness and stupidity
and eating at McDonalds the whole time ?
</off topic tirade>
S

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From cfolt@COINET.COM Tue Dec 07 07:11:40 1999
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Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Rela -- Find miles' photo's here <-- last one i promise
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Miles,
FYI - Six of the last seven of your posts have not come through.
I use mailstart and I don't know if that's the problem or not.
I get the header - just no message - or in this case - photos.
It happened once with something Robert sent also awhile back.
???
Cheryl


-----
Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html )
The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!

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From walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ Wed Dec 08 15:06:54 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:06:54 +1300
Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject: Virtual Nations
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

All,

Interesting that there is a trial happening in The Netherlands
which is actually Scotland.

Made me think about what a nation is, and it is all about bits of
paper, access, law -- virtual stuff.

We could have them in cyberspace, where access is via passport
id.

Just a thought...


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
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From walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ Thu Dec 09 13:06:19 1999
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Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject: eGroups
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
In-Reply-To: <081299342.33702@208.139.26.35>
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Cheryl, all

was: Re: Rela -- Find miles' photo's here

> and this is for Walter I guess,
> do we need a password for the dream event and did I give myself
> one when signing up - I don't think I did, can't remember if
> I did - see above - but if I need one how do I retrieve it or
> do I need to start over - oh drat the complications of being
> e-literate.

Good question... nothing elitterate (wonderful word! or is it
*not* elitterate ...  mmmm)  anyway it is the right question and
I *think* this is the answer:


1.  People who have subbed (as you did) will get the emails and
be able to send mail to the group.  No problem.

2.  It will be possible to view the emails on the web, from any
machine connected to the web.  To do that you will need to set up
an eGroup password, and create something they call My Space.  I
think the instructions will be at http://www.egroups.com
This is not essential to get started.

I have set up a list that anyone can join called
testingtestingtesting.

To join that might be useful, as we can try all sorts of things
there without cluttering other lists with messy things.  There
are other things to play around with such as the Vault where we
can store images and so on.

to join send a blanl email to

testingtestingtesting-subscribe@egroups.com




__________________________________________________________________
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From walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ Mon Dec 13 16:34:42 1999
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From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject: Dreamevent Postcard
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
In-Reply-To: <2d9j4s0s0ooae78u43kbj8b24p83gd056d@4ax.com>
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

All in Psyber-L

The event is, as you know, confidential to the members, but I
will say this:

The group filled to capacity and we are an active bunch at
present.

I am enjoying it very much.

I am conscious of the peculiar relationship between this group
and something like the dreamevent.  I know it may be silent here,
but if we think of the interconnection between us, and the energy
we value, that, is far from quiet.

In this psyber-l forum it is good to look at these phenomena...

How can we give voice to our yearning for the psyche?


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
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Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject: Welcome Patrick Lawlor
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Welcome Patrick Lawlor,

This email coming from the mailing list.  You are now a member
of.

At present we have about 30 people here, 10 or so who participate
actively.  Others who have done so in the past, and who may well
do so again!

You will be able to see many years of archives on the web, and
there is a good search ability there.  There is plenty to catch
up on.  :)  Definitely a joke.

At present there is a "Psybernet" group going on, a Dreamevent.
It is closed to the members now, and some of us are quite
absorbed there.

We have been somewhat quiet here of late, this list is what we
make it of course, and a few interesting posts usually spark off
interesting discussions.


Here is your intro:


>      My name is Patrick Lawlor and I work as a computer analyst
>      in New York.  I've been interested in Jungian psychology/therapy
>      for many years, although my main practice has been Eastern-style
>      meditation, mostly influenced by Jiddu Krishnamurti.



Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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From CMCPsych@AOL.COM Thu Dec 16 14:39:06 1999
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From: Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Welcome Patrick Lawlor
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Patrick, welcome from me, too...

Not everyone on Psyber-L is involved in the current dream event and I'm not
sure Walter's welcome to you made that clear.  I'm not involved, and I'm not
sure who else is not involved, other than Judith (how are you doing, Judith?)
 Although Psyber-L has been fairly quiet, some of us are still reading :)

Maybe I should just ask, who else is out there who isn't involved in the
dream event?

Anyway, welcome Patrick :)
Sheryl

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From anitak@MEGABAUD.FI Fri Dec 17 06:14:47 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:14:47 +0200
Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject: Re: Welcome Patrick Lawlor
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
In-Reply-To: <0.1e994857.25899cba@aol.com>
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Welcome Patrick,

And hello Sheryl,
you asked who else isn't involved in the dreamevent.
I'm not, I would like to participate in it, but I have no time, even to
write on this time. I'm writing a new novel, and it takes all my time and
capacity, so I can't keep contact with other people's dreampsyche. In any
case, it's a very overwhelmed  event, at least the first one was.

My  best wishes to you all, both dreamers and no-dreamers.

Anita
anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661




anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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From walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ Fri Dec 17 11:20:53 1999
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Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject: Re: Welcome Patrick Lawlor
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991216191447.007d3160@megabaud.fi>
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Anita, Sheryl, Patrick, all,

Glad you are reading and welcoming Patrick!

> And hello Sheryl,
> you asked who else isn't involved in the dreamevent.

Patrick & others who may interested can see the Invitation,
Description and Guideline doc for the Dreamevent on the Web :
http://www.psybernet.co.nz/de99description.htm

The group is private but it feels ok for me to say *in here* that
there are 6 of us from Psyber-L the Dreamevent.  This way people
can say if they are in or out and you'll get more of a feel of
the contours.

Anita:
> it's a very overwhelmed  event, at least the first one was.

I'd say that fits again, though being overwhelmed is an
experience, and some people feel overwhelmed when others feel
they are just getting going!  This is not a reference to the
current event, but a generalization that applies any group, and
we have seen it here in Psyber-L.

I was thinking about this yesterday while working with
psychotherapy clients... I am seeing their overwhelming crisis as
opportunities, god given respite from their stuck lives.  All
very well for me, I'm not in the crisis, not having the pain...
It is a strange situation where I am thinking: Good, and they are
thinking and feeling Bad.  All in a day's work!

Can we go into the new, into the psyche's hitherto hidden spaces
without being overwhelmed?  It took a few years of immersion to
get me going.

> My  best wishes to you all, both dreamers and no-dreamers.

Thank you so much... it is nice to be wished well...


> Anita
> anitak@megabaud.fi
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

Ithaca ... very interesting!

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/8/0,5716,44008+1,00.html

Have you been there Anita? In your Greek island sojourns?

AND, Anita,

All the best with your novel!


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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From plawlor@SLRHC.ORG Fri Dec 17 09:10:52 1999
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From: Patrick Lawlor <plawlor@SLRHC.ORG>
Subject: thanx for welcome
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

     Thank you all for welcoming me to the list.

     Now for my first newbie question: what exactly is this
     "dreamevent" that other people are currently involved in?

     Pat

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From walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ Fri Dec 17 11:36:38 1999
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From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject: Re: thanx for welcome
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Patrick
>      Thank you all for welcoming me to the list.
>
>      Now for my first newbie question: what exactly is this
>      "dreamevent" that other people are currently involved in?

Your question crossed in the ether, and I answered befor you
asked!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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***********************************************************************
* AMARANTH  Vol. E.1.1:          An Electronic zine by  Larry Cornett *
* 8/22/'88  9527 Blake Lane, # 102, Fairfax, VA  22031  (703)352-3791 *
*     Copyright by Larry Cornett.  Call for permission to publish.    *
***********************************************************************


                          QUANTUM MAGIC


REALITY AS DESCRIBED BY QUANTUM MECHANICS

In quantum mechanics, reality is described by waves defining the
probabilities of different outcomes from the same interactions.
These waves manifest as what we have been taught to call matter,
energy, particles, and/or waves when observed.

These probability waves overlap and continue forever.  The
interactions between different entities constitute a single
structure of linked wave patterns, so that the entire universe
can be thought of as an unbroken whole.  The waves form a matrix,
with all parts of the system affecting all other parts.  Non-
local relationships exist between parts of the system that are
distant from each other [1].  It is impossible to distinguish
two particles of the same type in a region of space in which they
may be found simultaneously [2].  Particles loose their
individual identity in such regions.  Thus, the physical universe
is fundamentally unified.

The basic equation of non-relativistic quantum mechanics is
Schrodinger's Wave Equation  [2]:

                       2         2
  i h (p)Q /(p)t  = - h /2m Delta Q + V(x,y,z) Q


satisfying the normalizing condition:

  Integral      2
  over all   |Q|  dx dy dx = 1
  space


where:

       h = 6.63E-34 joule sec / (2 pi)

      pi = 3.14...

V(x,y,z) = Potential energy, as a function of
           coordinates x, y and z

       m = Mass

       t = Time

     (p) = Partial derivitive of
                                                 2
       Q = Wave function of the particle, where Q dx dy dz is
           the probability that the particle may be found in the
           volume element dx dy dz at a particular time.  Values
           of Q are components of the "state vector."


Values of Q are quantum mechanically defined states and
constitute components of the "state vector."  These quantum
mechanically defined states define the probabilities of various
results from quantum mechanically defined interactions [2].  In
one orthodox interpretation of quantum mechanics, a system exists
simultaneously in all quantum mechanically possible states until
an observer (or apparatus outside the system) interacts to
"collapse" the state vector" and obtain an observation.

Quantum mechanical systems can go from one configuration to
another instantly, without passing through any states in
between.  Quantum mechanical movement is discontinuous, with all
actions occurring in discrete amounts (quanta).

Schrodinger himself discovered one of quantum mechanics' more
distinctive features:  whenever two systems interact, the
mathematical waves that represent the two systems do not separate
but remain linked.  The link does not drop off with distance and
the link acts instantaneously at both locations, but the
specificity of the link can be diluted through interactions with
other objects  [7].


WHAT UNDERLIES QUANTUM MECHANICS?

There are lots of hypotheses on the nature of the underlying
reality described statistically by quantum mechanics.

o Some scientists are content with the hypothesis that there is
  no more subtle structure than the probability waves described
  by quantum mechanics; and reality, at its most basic level, has
  a large amount of randomness whose limits are described by the
  quantum mechanical wave function, making the wave function
  itself the fundamental reality.  This is called the probability
  doctrine.  It asserts that such indetermination is a property
  inherent in nature and not merely a profession of our temporary
  ignorance, from which we expect to be relieved by a future
  better and more complete theory  [2].

o Einstein speculated that there must be some underlying
  mechanism, some hidden variables,  that uniquely determines
  the outcome of the interactions quantum theory can only
  statistically predict.

o J.S. Bell showed mathematically that, if such a mechanism
  exists, and the math of quantum mechanics is strictly correct,
  hidden variables must not have any functional dependence on the
  separation of events in space and time [3].

o According to David Bohm, from both a consideration of the
  meaning of the mathematical equations and from the results of
  experiments, particles can be understood as projections of a
  higher-dimensional reality.  This reality can not be accounted
  for by any force of interaction between independent entities,
  but can be understood as a process of enfoldment in a higher
  dimensional space  [1].  Information within the quantum wave
  determines the outcome of the quantum process.  This
  information is potentially active everywhere but only actually
  active when and where it enters into the energy of an observed
  particle, implying that all particles have complex inner
  structures [10].

o Recently, superstring theory has been proposed, describing a
  ten dimensional webwork of space-time at an incredibly small
  scale (1E-33 cm) underlying the phenomenon described
  statistically by quantum mechanics, relatively, particle
  physics etc.

Some scientists consider speculation about the nature of the
underlying reality to be irrelevant, since the predictions of
quantum mechanical equations match the statistics of the results
of experiments.  To the best of my knowledge, experiments have
not been performed that unambiguously distinguish between these
alternative world-views.  On the other hand, experiments have
been proposed; and some work is underway to check some
predictions of superstring theory.  Eventually, from the results
of experiments, some of these hypotheses may be screened out and
others elevated to the level of scientific theory.

We are one and the same as the structures that underlie the
matter and energy that we manifest as; and that structure is
continuous, interconnected, and non local in nature.  Whatever
the underlying structure behind the interconnected wave pattern
described by quantum mechanics (if any), we are that.


QUANTUM MECHANICS AND CONSCIOUSNESS

Getting back to established scientific theory, normal waking
consciousness occurs when the nerve cell firing rate (synaptic
switching rate) is high enough to spread out the waves associated
with electrons to fill the gaps between nerve cells (synaptic
clefts) with  waves of probability of similar amplitude.  This is
described mathematically by the quantum mechanical mechanism of
tunneling.  These waves are interconnected throughout regions of
the brain through resonances, resulting in a large, complex,
unified, quantum mechanically defined resonance matrix filling a
region in the brain.  The waves are interconnected with each
other and with information storage and sensory input mechanisms
within these regions of the brain.

The nerve cell firing rate (v') at which this occurs has been
modeled mathematically by Evan Harris Walker (at the U.S. Army
Ballistics Center at Aberdeen Proving Ground) and corresponds to
the threshold between waking and sleeping consciousness in people
and animals.  For normal waking consciousness to exist, the
synapse transmission frequency for the brain (v') must satisfy
the condition:

                                        2/3
  v' must be greater than or equal to  N    /T


where:

  N =  The total number of synapses in the brain (in humans,
       about 5E11)

  T =  Synaptic transmission delay time (the time interval
       required for the propagation of the excitation energy
       from one synapse to another)


This theory ascribes consciousness to an association of the
events occurring at any one synapse with events occurring at
other synapses in the brain by means of a quantum mechanical
propagation of information.  The sense of individual identity is
an aspect of the continuity of the wave matrix residing in the
brain [4].


QUANTUM MECHANICS AND PSYCHOKINESIS

By merely observing a phenomenon (resonating ones brain with it)
one can affect the outcome, since the physical mechanisms in your
brain are part of the wave matrix described by quantum mechanics.
The information handling rate in resonance determines the amount
of effect, along with the elapsed time of resonance and the
probability distribution of the phenomenon you are observing
[5].  According to Evan Harris Walker, quantum mechanical state
selection can be biased by an observer if [5]:


  W te  is greater than or equal to  -Log  P(Qo-Qi)
   Q                                     2

where:


     P(Qo-Qi) = Probability that state Qi will occur by chance
                alone

          W   = Information handling rate in process in brain
           Q    associated with state vector selection (bits/sec)

           te = Elapsed time

            Q = Overall state vector

           Qo = Initial physical state of system

           Qi = State that manifests "paranormal" target event


The effect of consciousness is incredibly small on macroscopic
systems; but it can be measurable when it occurs on quantum
mechanically defined and divergent systems, where a slight change
can amplify itself as it propagates through the system.  The
effect is about 1E-17 degrees on the angle of the bounce of cubes
going down an inclined plane.  Changes in the angle of bounce
result in changes in displacement of the cubes that increase
about 50% on every bounce, and the effect is measurable after
many bounces [6].  The theory successfully and quantitatively
modeled the differing amounts of displacement observed in
experiments on cubes of different weights and weight
distributions  [5].

Walker also modeled information retrieval in "guess the card"
experiments.  Simple, classical, random chance would predict a
smooth, binomial curve for the probabilities of getting the right
answer versus the number of subjects making successful
predictions at these probabilities.  Walker's model predicts that
the curve would have peaks at certain levels of probability of
getting the right answer above those predicted by chance alone.
Experimental data showed peaks at the locations modeled.
However, more people were successful at the higher probability
levels than Walker's model estimated.  This is considered to be
evidence of learning enhancement  [5].


SCIENTIFIC THEORY

Mr. Walker's ideas and equations would only be hypotheses if it
weren't for the fact that they have been tested experimentally
and found to predict the results of experiments with reasonable
accuracy [4,5].  The evidence meets the usual rules of proof for
scientific theory, and this makes Walker's equations legitimate
scientific theory.

The non-local underlying wave patterns beneath manifestations of
matter and energy that we hold in common with our surroundings
allow us to influence reality and to obtain information about it
using the power of the mind.  This underlying interconnecting
pattern is the very stuff of consciousness  and manifests, not
only as matter & energy, but also as psychokinesis, precognition
and other phenomenon that are only now beginning to be recognized
and embraced by some theories of modern physics.


IMPLICATIONS OF QUANTUM CONSCIOUSNESS THEORY

Deflections caused by consciousness are not caused by force or
energy in the conventional sense; but by something more subtle,
namely effects within the underlying wave structure out of which
matter and energy are manifestations (collapse of the state
vector) [5].

To psychically obtain information about a target or to
psychically influence events, one has to have one's brain
resonating with aspects of reality interconnecting the brain with
the target.  The more one's brain resonates with non-local
aspects of reality connecting with a target, the more
communication and direct influence one can have on it.

The more fundamentally diverse the potential outcomes of a
process targeted are, the more effect one gets from resonating
ones brain with it  [5].  Also, the more small changes in the
system tend to amplify as larger changes in the end result, the
more effect one can get.  This provides an explanation of why
patterns exist within seemingly random events and why successful
magic often results in a chain of synchronicities.

For a given subject (performing under optimum conditions and
having no difficulty visualizing the nature of the experimental
target nor psychological aversions to the target), the
magnitudes of the results obtained in tasks to affect the
readings on measuring devices (such as magnetometers, radiation
detectors, Josephson effect devices, balances, etc.) can be
related to one another by calculating the probability of the
reading based on the standard physical principles of quantum
mechanics  [5].

The sporadic nature of psi phenomena can be explained as a
matter of outside observers randomizing the process, causing
dilution of will data channels and randomizing the results  [5].
Thus, the need for secrecy in magical operations.

One can no longer maintain the division between the observer and
observed or between consciousness and the physical world.
Rather, both observer and observed, along with both consciousness
and the material world, are merging and interpenetrating aspects
of one whole indivisible reality  [1].

Whatever the subtle level of reality underlying matter and
energy, we are that (including our consciousness).  If hidden
variables exist, we are the hidden variables.  It has been
theorized that consciousness is an inseparable aspect of this
underlying reality.  When our awareness connects with the deepest
layer of reality interconnecting everything, we may experience
the level of consciousness beyond time and form reported by many
mystics.  It is this non local structure that we share with
nature that makes it possible to "attune to nature," to
psychically participate in nature, and to live in accordance with
it.

What we are usually aware of (normal waking consciousness) is a
relatively superficial movement in the order of things.  Behind
the things we are aware of in waking consciousness are a vast
array of less strongly linked phenomena.  This latter realm is
commonly called the unconscious (and parts of it the
subconscious).  The unconscious is not very accurate, since it
forms a kind of ground of consciousness  [8].  Our awareness can
link with this ground of consciousness to gain information and to
influence events.


THE GODS, GODDESSES AND NATURE SPIRITS

At this point, I diverge from theory and describe some plausible
hypotheses.  Consciousness, at a fundamental level, is associated
with the continuity of the underlying structures out of which
matter and energy manifest.  Everything shares this continuous
structure; therefore everything has consciousness to some degree
(though not necessarily normal waking consciousness).

Quoting from Evan Harris Walker (4):  "Consciousness may exist
without being associated with either a living system or a data
processing system.  Indeed, since everything that occurs is
ultimately the result of one or more quantum mechanical events,
the universe is 'inhabited' by an almost unlimited number of
rather discrete, conscious, usually non-thinking entities that
are responsible for the detailed working of the universe.  These
conscious entities determine (or exist concurrently with the
determination) singly the outcome of each quantum mechanical
event, while the Schrodinger equation (to the extent that it is
accurate) describes the physical constraint placed on their
freedom of action collectively."

In shamanic and in religious practice, one resonates with other
intelligences to get their assistance, inviting them to join in
the work at hand.  These intelligences can be thought of as
consciousness resonance matrices.  Some may be localized, as we
are (such as other biological intelligences, plant divas, power
spot spirits, some deities, etc.); and some may be non localized
(spirit animals in the other world, some deities, etc.).

The personalities of the Gods, Goddesses and spirits that many
practitioners of religion relate to can also be thought of as
consciousness resonance matrices.  They can be very non-specific
and disperse, or very specific (such as the Orishas and other
deities that can manifest in full possession of those who invoke
them).


QUANTUM MECHANICS AND MAGICAL RITUAL

Consider a typical structure of magical ritual and its quantum
mechanical explanation:

o Purify one's mind  and one's surroundings, freeing them of
  interfering resonances, quieting the static so that one can
  get a clear and strong resonance on the target desired.

o Achieve a non-localized state of consciousness, often by
  resonating ones mind with ones inner being, with the Earth,
  the sky, and ones surroundings.

o Meditate on the elements (Earth, Air, Fire, Water)
  representing non-local essences.  This helps your mind to
  resonate powerfully non-locally.

o After reaching out with one's mind and connecting its
  resonance pattern intimately with the non-local web of wave
  patterns connecting everything, invoke deities whose natural
  function is related to the purpose of your ritual.  If
  successful, this connects your mind to a powerful,
  established, non-localized, intelligent resonance matrix that
  (hopefully) joins in the magic.

o Focus on the target of the work, connecting with the target.

o While connected with the target, visualize the end result
  desired, thus creating a resonant template for the phenomenon
  one wants to achieve.

o Energize the resonance through dance, drumming, chants, pure
  channeling of will power, or other means.

o Release the energy into the target while strongly visualizing
  the target achieved (energizing the resonance in the target).

o Ground,  removing ones mind from the direct, resonant link
  with the target, so that the patterns you have set in motion
  in the target can continue with minimum interference  (to
  throw a ball, one has to let go).

o Thank and say goodbye to the intelligences one works with, thus
  disconnecting ones mind further from other resonance matrices.

There are other forms of magic, and much more detail to the
forms I described.  There are also ethical considerations.  This
paper provides a description of some aspects of the integration
of quantum mechanics with magickal thinking, but it does not
cover everything.




SO WHAT?

To read about theories of magic is like reading about sports.
You may pick up a few ideas; but to become proficient, you must
participate and play the game.  People have been teaching and
performing magic for thousands of years, without the benefit of
quantum theory.  Many magicians have had to separate their
scientific training from their magical practice.  Now, magical
theory has been merged with scientific theory, and more of the
mind of those trained in science can resonate with magic.  Also,
critics of magic can be shown the scientific theory and data
validating it, to show that there is more to magic than
superstition.

I have not seen any other quantitative scientific theories that
explain the results of experiments on psychokinesis, extrasensory
perception, and consciousness as accurately as Walker's theory,
or that give as satisfying of an explanation of the
synchronicities that I, as a worker of magic and a scientist,
have observed from personal experience.  This is not to say that
these ideas represent ultimate truth, that alternative theories
no not exist, or that flaws will not be found and that
alternative theories will not replace them.  I would welcome
hearing from others who have additional information and insight
into the applicability and limitations of the theories of modern
Physics as applied to the occult.


MULTIPLE UNIVERSES?

One interesting hypothesis is that of multiple universes.  As I
understand it, this hypothesis states that all of the alternative
possibilities allowed by quantum mechanics actually occur, but in
different universes.  Magicians can interpret their magic as
moving their awareness between these alternative universes.  I
have never seen the multiple universe theory set up
mathematically in a way that would allow it to be quantitatively
tested, using physical measurements (like was done with Mr.
Walker's theory),

It  would be interesting to determine if and to what extent the
multiple universe hypothesis can be integrated with Mr. Walker's
theory.  Consciousness, acting at a gross level, seems to be
relativistic - something experienced by observers relative to
their frames of reference.  Consciousness, at its ultimate level,
seems to be subtler than time and location.

When two observers see the same thing, they both may have certain
experiences in common, they both may affect the thing observed,
and they may report some of the events the same and some
differently.  Experience may be categorized in a multiple
universe mode and/or in a single universe mode.  If would be
interesting to know which mode is most useful for various
purposes.

It is obvious that some people have such a different personal
perception of reality as to be seemingly out of touch with the
world we experience around them.  Their self-world image becomes
more important than anything, and they adjust their memories and
perceptions to meet whatever emotional needs they have at the
time  [9].  Delusions of personal reality and the high
probability that such realities are real for the person
experiencing that reality can result in interesting questions
about what is real and what is unreal.

Although the universe may be a seamless whole, most physicists
describe it in two different modes, depending on whether things
are being observed or not  [7]:

o A classical, mechanistic mode for the definite attributes of
  observation, and

o A statistical, mathematical, quantum mechanical mode for the
  wave patterns described by quantum mechanics.

David Bohm has begun to develop new terminology that integrates
both the process of observation and quantum theory  [1].


REFERENCES

1.     Bohm, David.  Wholeness and the Implicate Order, ARK
       Paperbacks, London, 1983.

2.     Merzbacher, Eugene.  Quantum Mechanics, John Wiley and
       Sons, Inc., New York, 1967.

3.     Bell, J.S.  "On the Problem of Hidden Variables in Quantum
       Mechanics, Review of Modern Physics 38, 447-452, 1966.

4.     Walker, Evan H.  "The Nature of Consciousness,"
       Mathematical Biosciences 7, 1970.

5.     Walker, Evan H.  The Complete Quantum Mechanical
       Anthropologist. U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratories,
       Aberdeen Proving ground, Maryland, presented at the 73rd
       Annual American Anthropological Association Meeting,
       Mexico City, November 19-24, 1974.

6.     Walker, Evan H. and Nick Herbert.  "Hidden Variables:
       Where Physics and the Paranormal Meet," Future Science,
       edited by John White and Stanley Krippner, Anchor books,
       Garden City, New York, 1977.

7.     Herbert, Nick. "Notes Toward A User's Guide to the Quantum
       Connection," Psychological Perspectives 38,  Jung
       Institute of Los Angeles, Spring-Summer 1988.

8.     Bohm, David. "Consciousness and Self-Consciousness-A
       Working Paper," Psychological Perspectives 38,  Jung
       Institute of Los Angeles, Spring-Summer 1988.

9.     Bohm, David. "Beyond Relativity and Quantum Mechanics,"
       Psychological Perspectives 38,  Jung Institute of Los
       Angeles, Spring-Summer 1988.

10.    Bohm, David and Peat, David. Science Order and Creativity,
       Bantam, 1987.

***************************************************************

Note that "E" in numbers like 5E11 stands for five "times ten to
the" eleventh power.



C:\WP\QUANTUM.TXT ce.  Now, magical
theo
------ =_NextPart_000_01BF4B0D.AD498D80--

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From walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ Wed Dec 22 16:18:30 1999
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Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject: Tonights Moon Biggest Kiwis Will Ever See
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Hi,

I thought it looked bright last night!  Unfortunatly tonight
looks as if it will be overcast where I am. Just as well we are
psybernaughts and not werewolves.


Walter




~quote~
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL9912/S00102.htm

Tonights Moon Biggest Kiwis Will Ever See
Wednesday, 22 December 1999, 11:22 am
Article: Jonathan Hill

For the first time since 1866 the Summer Solstice and a full moon
will coincide tonight, with the moon being the biggest and
brightest moon you are ever likely to see.

Tonights full moon will be about seven per cent larger than most
full moons and will be closer to the earth than it has been in
over 70 years. The Met Service describe the event as the event
of a lifetime.

The orbital factors which bring the moon so close to the earth
will also bring abnormally high tides over the next few days.

The moon will be closest to the earth at around 8.45pm tonight at
about 350,000 kilometers away. Make sure you see it.


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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From walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ Sat Dec 25 13:16:51 1999
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From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject: Have a good Christmas!
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
In-Reply-To: <3682ad35.36530177@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

All In Psyber-L,

It is Christmas here in NZ. It is summer here of course, but we have had a
good drop of unseasonal snow last night on the hills. Kate & i have been
having a relaxing morning in our "bach" (holiday cabin) and we are
expecting family to arrive from all over soon.  We will have a Christmas
dinner tonight.

I'm going to be here by the PC for a week or more, and am having a good
time to think, even though not much inclination to type too much.

Have been having discussions with Josh, my son, as to weather the
information, knowledge economy is actually making a qualitative leap in the
nature of our social structures.  He tends to think it is all capitalism.
I'm not so sure.  I think that info and knowledge is a bigger part of our
"commodities" and that it is fundamentally different to atoms, and totally
different in the way it is produced and distributed, we may be onto a shift
that will lead to utterly new political economy.

That is not separate from the psyche to me... I still think that our
conditions lead to our thinking, feeling and experience and that this is
related to the psyche and in short, that the psyche evolves.

~~~

What an unexpected rave!

~~~

Have a good day!


Love to all,

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject: Happy New Year
Comments: To: dreamevent@egroups.com, josh@zesty.com,
          kathrynbrooker@clear.net.nz, group-l@lists.groupsense.co.nz,
          bonaanna@hotmail.com
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Hi friends,

It is the 31st here, and we are having a family day and I will be
more involved with life off screen than on, we are about to go
and camp on the hill.

Let me say Happy New Year, now rather than later as I will be
away from the computer.

On my mind has been the idea that some things do not change no
matter what, then this morning I got a lovely edition of Dave
Winer's email, entitled:  As time goes by


  ***You must remember this

  A kiss is still a kiss, a sigh is just a sigh.

  The fundamental things of life as time goes by.

  ***And when two lovers woo

  They still say I love you, on that you can rely.

  No matter what the future brings, as time goes by.

  ***Constancy

  Life is short, simple and sweet.

  Think of the unlocked doors.

  Think of a friend who calls just to say hello.

  Think of a kiss..

-------------------------------------------
Scripting News: <http://www.scripting.com/>




Love to all,

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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From bbc@MAIL.DANBBS.DK Sat Jan 01 03:42:54 2000
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Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Bent =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F8gedal?= Christoffersen              <bbc@MAIL.DANBBS.DK>
Subject: Re: Happy New Year
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Thank You Walter
 For all the Years that you have worked visely on this list.
 Thank You for the Years that have pasted and a warm wish
of a good new 2000 to all.
 from
Bent (  the long time silent memmber )
http://www.danbbs.dk/~bbcweb


Walter Logeman skriver:

> Hi friends,
>
> It is the 31st here, and we are having a family day and I will be
> more involved with life off screen than on, we are about to go
> and camp on the hill.
>
> Let me say Happy New Year, now rather than later as I will be
> away from the computer.
>
> On my mind has been the idea that some things do not change no
> matter what, then this morning I got a lovely edition of Dave
> Winer's email, entitled:  As time goes by
>
>   ***You must remember this
>
>   A kiss is still a kiss, a sigh is just a sigh.
>
>   The fundamental things of life as time goes by.
>
>   ***And when two lovers woo
>
>   They still say I love you, on that you can rely.
>
>   No matter what the future brings, as time goes by.
>
>   ***Constancy
>
>   Life is short, simple and sweet.
>
>   Think of the unlocked doors.
>
>   Think of a friend who calls just to say hello.
>
>   Think of a kiss..
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Scripting News: <http://www.scripting.com/>
>
> Love to all,
>
> Walter
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html




From aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA Sat Jan 01 05:30:45 2000
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Reply-To: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Happy New Year
Comments: To: dreamevent@egroups.com
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
In-Reply-To: <cs7o6sg5emnumgvsv2o82sd75d7q53bq4u@4ax.com>
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

Hello Walter and friends,

I have a few moments free here in a day that gives every indication of
being too busy to return to the keyboard.  In a few hours my grandchildren
will be coming and I will again get to play with energetic pre-school aged
boys.  Grandpa (Papa-pere) and grandsons seem to have a special connection
based on imagination.  In the evening I will take my wife, and my eldest
daughter and her husband to a New Year's Dance here in our small
rural-agricultural community.  I will be busy with family for the next two
or three days and will have little opportunity to connect here.

Please know that in the ensuing silence, I will remember and think about
the friends I have made over the years that are here in cyberspace.

May the future be blessed for each of you.

Robert

____________________________________________________________
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