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To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:32:21 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Letter
MIME-Version: 1.0
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All,

I hope you are well... Judith with your health, Cheryl, as you
grapple with the things you grapple with! Nancy... its been a
while, Robert with the transitions, Stephen, Simon. Sheryl.
Miles, are you still here?  Newer people, Wayne, Evan, Eric.
Hi to silent readers: you know who you are :)

I have been away from psyber-l for ages, apart from working hard
in my office I have been exploring the psyche in cyberspace.

The ATP conference http://event.tmn.com/events/atp was
interesting.  I found the first week more so than the other
three, as the focus was on cyberspace.  Met some interesting
people, and looked at such things as "Who is the Internet?"
Dreamwork was hot, and i am inspired to do more.  Richard
Wilkerson was there and persuaded me to write and article on
dreamwork, and promote an online dreamgroup in Dream Time the
magazine of the ADS http://www.asdreams.org/

I have been intrigued to see Ken Wilber online, and found it
quite an experience to see him do his thing.  Intelligent, warm,
humorous.  I felt something of the pull towards a guru, and am
not sure that was all me!

I did a talk about Sex and the Internet, at NZ Venerological
Society Conference, here is the outline, mostly links (thanks
Simon) http://psybernet.co.nz/writing/sex.htm It went ok, next
time I'd call it relationships online or something, as that was
really more my focus.

I have been somewhat more present in Howard Rheingold's
Brainstorms http://staging.rheingold.com/community.html it is a
couple of years since I joined, and it is one of the best online
communities i know of.

The other thing that has been important for me, is hanging out
with some local people, who share my interest in psyberspace.  I
am particularly thinking of Dan of http://www.groupsense.co.nz we
are writing the doc:  Roles Online
http://psybernet.co.nz/roles/roles009.htm

So many places to go, so many projects!  For all that my mind is
never far away from here in psyber-l. I often think I'll write, I
always notice if there is a post here. I think how it could be
made more vital.  Stephen said the other day "this list runs on
vitality!" I have vitality for it, I hope others have.


Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:05:13 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Letter
In-Reply-To:  <VVwjOENfabcn1dZ=o4OU6NaPPnMt@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Walter, all,

Glad to read of your projects and explorations and encounters. I'm curious
and have a somewhat personal question to ask of you. Do all of your
counseling and therapeutic and intellectual and psyberian inspirations
reduce to any kind of personal keynote?

And, how do you balance the multiplicity of commitments with these kinds of
keynotes? (Presuming you'll have an answer to the first question!)

You also wrote regarding Ken Wilber,: I felt something of the pull towards
a guru, and am not sure that was all me! Would you like to expand upon this
not 'all me' phenomena? <winking>

Anyway, a few questions for you to take up and weave with, Walter.

***

best2all

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:06:47 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      which way does time flow?
In-Reply-To:  <VVwjOENfabcn1dZ=o4OU6NaPPnMt@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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fans of the synchronous,

Interestingly, as Judith and my own commitments have recently developed, an
innocuous event here on Psyber-L has made a contribution. When Evan stated
how a book, _The User Illusion_ excited him, I, also interested in
cognitive science, the study of consciousness, and what both broad fields
have to do with my own work in experiential learning and instructional
design immediately borrowed the book from the library. It's turned out to
be a mildly interesting book, not (for me) convincingly argued but with a
lot of fascinating information. But, what it led to was a much more
surprising book.

How? This other book, _Living at the Edge of Chaos: Complex Systems in
Culture and Psyche_ by a Jungian analyst, Helene Schulman [?] was shelved
next to the other book on the store's shelf, discovered on the occasion I
went searching for a paperback copy to read and mark-up. $2.99 and, as it
is said, 'the book spoke to me'.

A flare of Synchronicity: not only did this book expand its own 'argument'
beyond the shores of archetypal psych but did so toward the far shore of my
and Judith's work, contributing not only a vital component to a new tool
while landing that a host of other profound ideas in the midst of our
recent "pushing of our own collaborative envelope". In fact, we've been
traveling at a significantly faster rate of inspiration and learning
ourselves since the end of August. Much of it has to do with Judith holding
and aligning our creative field while I become more practiced at the
permeability that allows novel inspirations and synchronous 'significants'
to manifest in our work.

This has to do with, in part, from what temporal direction some data comes
from. And, I note, some physicists are working on theories which have to do
with the source of order in a 'feed-from-the-future' (in QM terms,)
scenario in direct contradiction of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. None of
these theories are proved substantial, but, as the mind wanders. . .

(I intend to recount a summary of our work over the past three months on
the squareONE-learning.com web site, although I doubt I can do so very
accurately or without interpretation; its been a very intensive, personal
experience for us both, the most significant and amped collaborating we've
done in four years.)

All this has happened in the midst of a series of
darkly-turning-toward-light events in my life, events which have to do with
dear relationships, the health of both of my parents, and dramatic
developing alterations in my own environment. frighteningfabulous

***

Soul. How one enters with all the awareness available in the moment into
the stream of one's life, (made for me sacred by the experiential knowledge
that this stream sources a river, a river sourced in a greater,
transpersonal ocean). Yet, the point of my own soul-play is found in the
'day work', grand transcendental considerations put to the side; as Rumi,
ra, sang:

   "Encourage that freshness
    in yourself, and not what clouds you
    with dullness and futility."

peace. Stephen

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:49:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         GwR <nori@FDN.COM>
Organization: Infinity
Subject:      Re: Letter
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> You also wrote regarding Ken Wilber,: I felt something of the pull towards
> a guru, and am not sure that was all me! Would you like to expand upon this
> not 'all me' phenomena? <winking>
>

plus all the guru will tell you is that u are the master!   :)

so maybe IT *was* within you


> Anyway, a few questions for you to take up and weave with, Walter.
>
> ***
>
> best2all
>
> Stephen
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:44:30 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Letter
In-Reply-To:  <v04220801b44b3f6cd69b@[207.54.160.46]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen, Evan, all

> Glad to read of your projects and explorations and encounters.

Good to have your response...

> I'm curious
> and have a somewhat personal question to ask of you. Do all of your
> counseling and therapeutic and intellectual and psyberian inspirations
> reduce to any kind of personal keynote?

At lunch today I thought:  restless.  That is the one word answer
to Stephen. There is a magnetism which pulls me to life on the
edge of my known and unknown... I feel agony in that, and would
like that to go.

I wanted to be a therapist, now I am one, I wanted to be a
psychodramatist, these things are done and now they feel like
steppingstones.

Of course now there is the need to examine the very
restlessness... watching the restlessness almost but not quite
translating into projects.

> And, how do you balance the multiplicity of commitments with these kinds of
> keynotes? (Presuming you'll have an answer to the first question!)

What is the keynote here for me?  Exploring?  I have done that
literally in the hills, in relationships, family, in projects, in
my own personal therapy, or therapies of several kinds. Yet I
still have the explorer's drives... is there anywhere left to go?


One balance is to look at the process itself... as I do here now.
A friend said you are like Mozart he worked on 7 symphonies at
once. There is a balancing act to do here. There is a unity in
all of the diversity here too: psyche-cyber-writing. It is also
an obsession with one thing, and not only a multiplicity.  In a
way I am quite focussed.

What is the personal thing behind that focus... I am continuing
to hang onto your probe here...

I experience it as a drive, just like the urge to build a home, I
want to have a greater comfort being with the psyche in
cyberspace.  Psyber-l remains one of the places where i feel
closest... where the restlessness quietens a little giving me the
feeling of you are warm (warm as in games of hide and seek, not
always in the sense of comfort).  The dream event also stands out
as "warm".

The civil, social, e-commerce, learning and knowledge base
developments on the Net are not so warm, but they do seem like
building blocks... much in the way the commercialisation of
medicine was a stepping stone to psychotherapy... an essential
disaster.

It might look as if I am drifting from the personal...

I don't think so. Sometimes i talk cyber stuff, and it feels like
a painter talking "red ocher, linseed oil"... a love for the raw
materials.  Electronic words!  Love 'em!

~~~

> You also wrote regarding Ken Wilber,: I felt something of the pull towards
> a guru, and am not sure that was all me! Would you like to expand upon this
> not 'all me' phenomena? <winking>

Oh, I think his approach is devotee-genic.  I know it will take a
devotee-suseptible to make the match, it takes two, and he is
quite a capable provider of the guru half.

Evan wrote:

|  plus all the guru will tell you is that u are the master!   :)
|
|  so maybe IT *was* within you

Yes perhaps the devotee-suseptible in me is simply part of the
denial of the aspiring devotee-genic...

I was thinking today that my various teachers are almost in the
place of ancestors... ancestors would be a nice place actually.
Ancestors are dead, not only literally, but they are more like
old shells from which the new life has already emerged and been
integrated.  I am sill in the process of ancestor-ising some of
the teachers, and feel the clamour of some of new ones.  They are
not succeeding, I am not succumbing.


> Anyway, a few questions for you to take up and weave with, Walter.

Thanks.  How do these matters weave with you Stephen?


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:27:55 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Letter
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Walter,
Thanks for some of the recent links. I followed-up and some of
what I found I think will be useful to me.

One question I have for Psyber-L: do you think we could have
another Dream Event here?       It is the one thing that we might
do here that might keep me interested in contiuing on the list.
Not much seems to be happening here...

wondering what to do to stay involved,
Cheryl


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:55:08 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Letter
In-Reply-To:  <111199315.55674@204.245.234.87>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Cheryl,

Looks like you are back on line!  How is the new machine?

> Thanks for some of the recent links. I followed-up and some of
> what I found I think will be useful to me.

> One question I have for Psyber-L: do you think we could have
> another Dream Event here?

Been thinking about that a lot. I'd love to have another go at a dream
group.  I have learnt quite a bit about the process since than and have
been thinking of a plan for one. I think it would be best done, like last
time in a separate list. It gets confusing, as there is a different
purpose.

I'll post something more on that soon.

I'd like to hear from others who are interested.


> It is the one thing that we might
> do here that might keep me interested in contiuing on the list.
> Not much seems to be happening here...
>
> wondering what to do to stay involved,

Great that you are making suggestions, and being present here.

I had a look at the archives sizes the other day, and it is true we are in
a quiet phase, but interestingly, if the stats are anything to go by,
anything can happen!  I'll post them up.




Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:04:14 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: which way does time flow?
In-Reply-To:  <v04220802b44b406410f5@[207.54.160.46]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen,

> This has to do with, in part, from what temporal direction some data comes
> from. And, I note, some physicists are working on theories which have to do
> with the source of order in a 'feed-from-the-future' (in QM terms,)
> scenario in direct contradiction of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. None of
> these theories are proved substantial, but, as the mind wanders. . .

I am reminded of James Hillman's acorn theory... are you familiar with
that? He turns the developmental notions on their head, and explains
childhood behaviour by looking at the adult life! A famous bull fighter,
long before he was that, as a child, was clingy and hid behind his mothers
skirts.  Afraid of the bulls that were waiting for him as his destiny
unfolded.

In my own life it seems that earlier learning, rather than being a
foundation for the things i do now or that lie ahead, sometimes seem as if
they were put there to train me up for the things yet to come.

My whole interest in psychology and so on, for example, seem to be an
essential prerequisite for something crucial that is yet to happen, a task
for me in cyberspace... I have no idea what it is exactly... but the
restlessness goes on!


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:09:23 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      squareONE
In-Reply-To:  <v04220802b44b406410f5@[207.54.160.46]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>

  which way does time flow?
  Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:06:47 -0500


> (I intend to recount a summary of our work over the past three months on
> the squareONE-learning.com web site, although I doubt I can do so very
> accurately or without interpretation; its been a very intensive, personal
> experience for us both, the most significant and amped collaborating we've
> done in four years.)

I have had a look at the site again and there is much of interest.  When
you say you are going to recount a summary, I presume that the more recent
work is not online?

Have you two been working with clients with you tools?  How is that going?

Have you considered doing more work with some of these processes online?

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:14:07 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      frighteningfabulous
In-Reply-To:  <v04220802b44b406410f5@[207.54.160.46]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>

  which way does time flow?
  Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:06:47 -0500


> All this has happened in the midst of a series of
> darkly-turning-toward-light events in my life, events which have to do with
> dear relationships, the health of both of my parents, and dramatic
> developing alterations in my own environment. frighteningfabulous

Wow!  You have a lot on your plate. I wish you well Stephen with these
personal developments. I hope you find it ok to say more here.

I know recently we have been speaking about the tendency not to want to go
more deeply into personal matters here... I am pleased you have shared this
and hope you will say more, it would help me to know you more.  At the
share time I would respect any and all reluctance you may wish to share!


Walter





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:20:34 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Ebb and Flow
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all,

Here is data from the file list, it shows the size of each of the months
since 1996.

Best viewed in a fixed pitch font like Courier New.

PS You can get the whole of a month's emails in one big file using the GET
command. eg:

GET PSYBER-L      LOG9603


Walter

~~~

* filename      filetype        GET PUT size (bytes) date       time
* --------      --------        --- --- ------------ ---------- --------
  PSYBER-L      LOG9603         LOG OWN      119,624 1996-03-31 23:38:11
  PSYBER-L      LOG9604         LOG OWN    1,247,537 1996-04-30 09:05:32
  PSYBER-L      LOG9605         LOG OWN      857,635 1996-05-30 10:46:59
  PSYBER-L      LOG9606         LOG OWN      116,343 1996-06-30 20:23:21
  PSYBER-L      LOG9608         LOG OWN      126,190 1996-08-30 09:23:20
  PSYBER-L      LOG9609         LOG OWN      384,626 1996-09-30 19:55:33
  PSYBER-L      LOG9610         LOG OWN      340,886 1996-10-31 21:03:32
  PSYBER-L      LOG9611         LOG OWN      286,059 1996-11-30 23:51:44
  PSYBER-L      LOG9612         LOG OWN      312,984 1996-12-31 19:25:19
  PSYBER-L      LOG9701         LOG OWN      559,553 1997-01-31 20:59:22
  PSYBER-L      LOG9702         LOG OWN      308,984 1997-02-28 23:17:04
  PSYBER-L      LOG9703         LOG OWN      694,602 1997-03-31 23:12:14
  PSYBER-L      LOG9704         LOG OWN      713,978 1997-04-30 06:15:23
  PSYBER-L      LOG9705         LOG OWN      465,297 1997-05-31 11:43:45
  PSYBER-L      LOG9706         LOG OWN      277,053 1997-06-30 09:21:43
  PSYBER-L      LOG9707         LOG OWN      511,974 1997-07-31 12:48:06
  PSYBER-L      LOG9708         LOG OWN      894,354 1997-08-31 22:12:45
  PSYBER-L      LOG9709         LOG OWN    1,365,609 1997-09-30 22:41:02
  PSYBER-L      LOG9710         LOG OWN    1,807,061 1997-10-31 19:06:09
  PSYBER-L      LOG9711         LOG OWN      935,456 1997-11-30 12:36:24
  PSYBER-L      LOG9712         LOG OWN      229,599 1997-12-29 22:38:36
  PSYBER-L      LOG9801         LOG OWN       67,110 1998-01-31 16:44:14
  PSYBER-L      LOG9802         LOG OWN      133,441 1998-02-28 19:37:22
  PSYBER-L      LOG9803         LOG OWN      484,241 1998-03-31 08:39:34
  PSYBER-L      LOG9804         LOG OWN      373,017 1998-04-30 21:10:08
  PSYBER-L      LOG9805         LOG OWN      959,151 1998-05-31 00:01:22
  PSYBER-L      LOG9806         LOG OWN    2,350,359 1998-06-30 22:24:20
  PSYBER-L      LOG9807         LOG OWN      609,987 1998-07-31 21:46:38
  PSYBER-L      LOG9808         LOG OWN      181,025 1998-08-31 12:10:13
  PSYBER-L      LOG9809         LOG OWN      393,867 1998-09-30 11:05:32
  PSYBER-L      LOG9810         LOG OWN      464,272 1998-10-31 18:18:52
  PSYBER-L      LOG9811         LOG OWN      260,347 1998-11-30 23:04:02
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  PSYBER-L      LOG9901         LOG OWN      420,000 1999-01-30 19:17:26
  PSYBER-L      LOG9902         LOG OWN       45,668 1999-02-27 01:26:22
  PSYBER-L      LOG9903         LOG OWN      284,458 1999-03-30 19:33:38
  PSYBER-L      LOG9904         LOG OWN      303,617 1999-04-27 10:49:32
  PSYBER-L      LOG9905         LOG OWN      168,905 1999-05-31 22:47:43
  PSYBER-L      LOG9906         LOG OWN    1,236,466 1999-06-30 14:55:38
  PSYBER-L      LOG9907         LOG OWN      405,006 1999-07-31 17:35:02
  PSYBER-L      LOG9908         LOG OWN      209,896 1999-08-30 07:02:27
  PSYBER-L      LOG9909         LOG OWN       87,552 1999-09-30 09:41:52
  PSYBER-L      LOG9910         LOG OWN      105,643 1999-10-22 17:23:47
  PSYBER-L      LOG9911         LOG OWN       14,151 1999-11-08 21:47:23

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:42:10 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Letter
Content-Type: text/plain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Walter wrote (about the idea of a dream event)
>I'll post something more on that soon.
>
>I'd like to hear from others who are interested.

Wow... Well I think I have the time and space to
participate in a dream event if anyone will have me !!

 Sounds like it could be great !!

---

Incidentally I had a *great* dream last night. All it was
was just me sitting in a cafe with my partner
Louise and then looking up and
realising that we were sitting just underneath
this most beautiful building, in particular
an apartment block by Gaudi, called
"La Pedrera" I think. Anyway I was
sitting there, and then I looked up
saw the building and thought - cool..

Since  Louise and I recently
visited Barcelona, and saw that
particular building, its probably not
really all that suprising..

In fact I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean anything, but
it was still a great dream. One of the best type
even, dont you think, a simple meaningless
nice dream ?


 --


Miles Thompson

 your homeboy
    - miles@mail.com -

 http://switch.to/miles

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:56:12 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Dream Group
In-Reply-To:  <99111116503402.03753@localhost.localdomain>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Miles,

  Re: Letter
  Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:42:10 +1300

> Wow... Well I think I have the time and space to
> participate in a dream event if anyone will have me !!

Sounds like a good idea to me.

I have been writing up the article on dreams for ADS
http://www.asdreams.org/ and so the whole process has been on my
mind.  I am pleased that Cheryl mentioned the idea of doing a
dream event here, and that you have the time and space!

I set a lot of store by how a group is *designed* ie the
brochure, the purpose, the format and so on and I will have
something ready soon.

A few thoughts for now... and I'd be interested in feedback:

Time, in asynchronous groups online requires structuring that is
quite different from what we might expect.  I was recently in the
Transpersonal conference and found that even a few simple threads
could not be given their full due in one week.  I also felt
rushed, and had to *work hard* at being there.  I even took time
off work, but that did not help all that much.  I had no time to
think, let alone dream!

The solution I'll suggest is that the group will move into a
closure phase once 10 dreams have been linked.  The closure phase
itself will consist of everyone sharing something of their
experience and learning and making some evaluatory comments. The
group will remain open for one month after that for further
closing comments, then it will remain online archives available
to members only.

Such a process can be stymied of course if links are not made, or
if the participation is not forthcoming.  To help with that Id
suggest a an optimum time of 6 to 8 weeks and a maximum of twice
that.

One other thought.

I have come to point, through much exploration here in psyber-L
where I think of this mailing list as being hosted by me.  A
dream group like the one I am thinking of has a tighter
structure, so in addition to the hosting requires facilitation.
Subtle differences perhaps, but leads to not so subtle
differences in experience for members.  Dan & I are writing this
up in our roles paper.

Miles, lovely dream.  Meaningless!!!  More in the next post...


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:42:35 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Dreaming on...
In-Reply-To:  <99111116503402.03753@localhost.localdomain>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Miles

  Re: Letter
  Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:42:10 +1300

http://gaudi.tm/ingles/i_partici/i_impart/vlasta/1mila2.jpg

This looks interesting too:

http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/~f9581133/gaudi/gal2/batllo1.html

One way of commenting on a dream that I like, which I have found
is not intrusive, is to think of the dream as one of my own... in
that way I can make of it what I like, and so can you!


> Incidentally I had a *great* dream last night. All it was
> was just me sitting in a cafe with my partner
> Louise and then looking up and
> realising that we were sitting just underneath
> this most beautiful building, in particular
> an apartment block by Gaudi, called
> "La Pedrera" I think.

Immediately i think of it as the opposite of a dream I had last
night.

~~~

I was scrambling through bush with an male friend, I cant
identify him (now, in the dream he seemed familiar).  We
scrambled up a hill through bush and saw some people resting on
an outcrop.  We merely said hallo, and moved on.  My friend went
first and went down a steep gully, and up a rock face on the
other side.  When i got to the top of the rock face and looked
over the other side there was about a 1000 meter drop to a forest
below! We were sitting on the top of an overhang. The "face" I
had been climbing up was thin.  I was scared. I decided to go no
further, against the protestations of my friend who wanted to go
along this insubstantial knife edge.

~~~

I find it uncanny how I am with a male somewhat unknown, you with
Louise.  You are in a cafe, I am in the bush.  The amazing thing
in my case is below, a huge space! Yours is above and solid.

If your dream were also my dream, and I wish it was, then i would
think that as well as being "on the edge" I was also in "cool"
space.

I would also think that my relationship with (Kate in my case)
was under a beautiful structure, somehow contained by it.  If I
"dream into your dream" such a building is quite unlike the sort
of steel and glass corporate affairs, but a living building, with
history, organic, not too heavy even though it is above us...
made by humans but with respect for nature and life.  I'm now
beginning to link it to being blessed in the relationship by
something like that.

If it were my dream...

I would feel earthed through drinking coffee.  I love cafes and
coffee.  I loved that moment in the movie "Wings of Desire" when
the angel falls to earth and the first thing he does is gets a
cup of coffee!  Oh to be able to taste!  Of course you might not
be drinking coffee in the dream... I would be I think!

The earthed in this dream contrasts with the decidedly scary
position perched above all that air in my (other) dream.


> Anyway I was
> sitting there, and then I looked up
> saw the building and thought - cool..

Cool indeed!

~~~

That is my comment.

> Since  Louise and I recently
> visited Barcelona, and saw that
> particular building, its probably not
> really all that suprising..
>
> In fact I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean anything, but
> it was still a great dream. One of the best type
> even, dont you think, a simple meaningless
> nice dream ?

Nice dream... I can imagine it brimming with meaning though once
4 or 5 people link to it in this way!

The meaning not being so much one that reveals inner secrets of
your unconscious or the future or whatever, rather stories that
pour out of the dream like they might out of a poem or a
painting.


I hope it was ok for me to launch in like that Miles...


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:40:46 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dreaming on...
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Walter, Miles,
Sounds as if we have already started a dream event. I took a
look at the building, Miles, and it's definitely a memorable
structure and certainly not surprising that it might show up
in a dream.

If it had been my dream....;)
 I would have had sense of creative solidity - rooted, yet fluid,
with a circular rather than "squre" perspective out into the
world, which is of course a globe and not a block. I too love
cafes and coffee and sitting around in places where I might see
familiar faces, catching up on news and having a sense of belonging...wow,
this buidling is part of me I might say, if it were my dream,
she wrote, tonuge in cheek...

btw, Miles, glad to see you here and participating...you can
be in my dreams... and Barcelona is on my "spring list" of places
to go...Budapest being another..and a "windjammer cruise" in
the Caribbean with friends being another. Who knows which way
the wind may blow?

No, Walter, I don't have a new computer yet, being online the
other day was a function of being at home with a virus (NOT virtual)
and having the office laptop in my possesssion at the time. Today
I am in the office (Sat) and soon to take the little lovely home
with me for the rest of the weekend. I suddenly realized that
if we do a dream event I may have to take the laptop home every
night and I hope this will not be a problem with my co-workers..if
I tell them it's because I'm in a "DREAM EVENT" - oh, god, they
already think I'm wierd enough...I do live in Central Oregon
after all. Bless this lovely little land....

Bye, off the see the movie "Dogma"

Cheryl


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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Nov 1999 12:41:48 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Dreaming on...
In-Reply-To:  <131199317.38441@208.139.26.35>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Cheryl,

> Sounds as if we have already started a dream event.

I hope that we can just do whatever we do here, and that any
other groups simply add to our riches!

> I took a
> look at the building, Miles, and it's definitely a memorable
> structure and certainly not surprising that it might show up
> in a dream.

I am thinking of using eGroups for the dream group (dGroup? :)
The free service has some very good features. It also has ads on
the bottom of each email.  I do't find them too intrusive.  The
reason i mention it right here, is that we can use a HTML format
more easily and that means seeing the pictures right in the mail.

Just to get the feel of the list, I have set up a test list.  Any
one who wants to experiment a little can join.  I will send a
separate post about it.

I think it would be great to see the building right here in the
discussions.  However I hate getting too much HTML coding
scattered in my text only reader.

~~~

> ...wow,
> this buidling is part of me I might say, if it were my dream,
> she wrote, tonuge in cheek...

That is just another wonderful way to explore dreams... to be
things in the dream... Let me try it with my "Big Drop" dream.

"I am a cliff overhanging a big vertical drop... I am made of
solid rock, but very thin at the top, like a knife edge.  I have
some scrub growing on me, and am ancient and well weathered.
While there is a lot of exposure below me for anyone on the edge,
and while there are a few loose bits of rock to watch out for,
with some care I can be negotiated quite easily."

Nancy, where are you? ... now it feels like a resolution of sorts
to the dream I was discussing here a while back with Nancy, where
i was hanging on to a ladder outside a window with no way down.

In this dream there is some hope of movement, it is just so
scary!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Nov 1999 12:47:17 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Psybernet eGroup Test Group
Comments: To: collab_project@egroups.com, group-l@lists.groupsense.co.nz
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all,

I have set up an eGroup for some experimetation, please join in
if you have the inclination.

~~~

Testing, testing, testing. Psybernet eGroup Test Group

A group to test eGroups. Try different html settings and learn
how to be proficient with eGroup lists and services such as the
calendar, database and the vault etc. Let's build up some
knowledge here about how to use the lists, and I hope people
experiment and help others. I am the only moderator for now, but
am happy to add others so they can experiment.

Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz



Group email addresses:

 Post Message  testingtestingtesting@eGroups.com
 Subscribe  testingtestingtesting-subscribe@eGroups.com
 Unsubscribe  testingtestingtesting-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
 List owner  testingtestingtesting-owner@eGroups.com



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:05:16 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psybernet eGroup Test Group
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Walter, what does this most recent message mean????

Cheryl


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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:21:51 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psybernet eGroup Test Group
In-Reply-To:  <131199317.57911@204.245.234.65>
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Cheryl,

> Walter, what does this most recent message mean????

I hope it is not too confusing.  I am simply trying out another
service that provides lists.

It means nothing has changed on this list.  You can safely ignore
the message and all will be well.

I am thinking that we could run a dream group using that type of
list, but the testing list is just that, a place to try things
and get familiar with the list.

I have been using the eGroup service for some other lists and
would like to learn how the various options work, so that is my
style, set up something and learn by doing.

If you are still unsure, please keep asking!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Nov 1999 12:58:11 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: which way does time flow?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 11/12/99 2:10:04 AM Mountain Standard Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> My whole interest in psychology and so on, for example, seem to be an
>  essential prerequisite for something crucial that is yet to happen, a task
>  for me in cyberspace... I have no idea what it is exactly... but the
>  restlessness goes on!

Walter, all...

I chose this subject line because I have lost threads of the more recent
subject lines...  and, it reflects, synchronistically, my own *space* in
life, because I have *gone home* by moving in with my ex and sons.  I
resigned my position as a birth counselor, and I'm refocusing on family
connections and I in the process of evaluating my directions.  I am doing
bookkeeping instead of anything related to psychology.

For me, for now, time almost seems to be flowing backwards, in some respects.


(Robert, if you are still participating in PSYBER-L, note the contrast of
this with your lifestyle changes, the moving away you mentioned awhile back!
Does the irony strike you, too?)

That aside, what you wrote above so resonnates with me, Walter... "a task for
me in cyberspace" and the restlessness you feel connected with the unknown
task, and how your interest in psychology, experential learning, etc. are
also crucial to this unknown task.  I'm also asking myself these questions,
of my own learning, scholarly and experential, especially the past few years.

I see, however, that you continue your search with your egroup testing,
Walter, and I want to say that I admire your tenacity :)

I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, though... when do you feel closest
to being on the path to this unknown crucial task?  Is it related to dream
work?  Synchronicity, or especially multiple synchronicities?  Is it more
present when you are in cyberspace or in *real life*?

Questions I'm sure asking myself would also benefit exploration of my own
undefined task :)

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:06:20 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Psybernet eGroup/dGroup
In-Reply-To:  <1vctOK=cXV6GFsgXL9loV5m+qS=8@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,

I wonder at the wisdom of this, but I do offer to become part of this
group.  But in saying this, I do so only on the condition that the others
of the group want me to be part of such a group.  I will accept the staying
on the sidelines if even ONE voice fonds discomfort in my presence within
such a group ....

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:06:44 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: which way does time flow?
In-Reply-To:  <0.3a7d2a74.25605233@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sheryl, Walter, Cheryl, Stephen, Miles, all ...

>I chose this subject line because I have lost threads of the more recent
>subject lines...  and, it reflects, synchronistically, my own *space* in
>life, because I have *gone home* by moving in with my ex and sons.  I
>resigned my position as a birth counselor, and I'm refocusing on family
>connections and I in the process of evaluating my directions.  I am doing
>bookkeeping instead of anything related to psychology.
>
>For me, for now, time almost seems to be flowing backwards, in some respects.

Thesea are powerful changes indeed Sheryl.  I wonder about the nature of
time as well.  I have some notion that time doesn't have any direction at
all.  Synchronicity and dreams help to arrive at a difference understanding
of time.  I think that all time is now and that we exist in all phases of
time as we can conceive of time at the same time.  I wonder if we find
ourselves moving backwards in time because we haven't allowed the lessons
of time (the openning to the unconscious contents) to work upon us without
our fears of change, fears of the unknown sabotaging that very alchemical work.

>(Robert, if you are still participating in PSYBER-L, note the contrast of
>this with your lifestyle changes, the moving away you mentioned awhile back!
>Does the irony strike you, too?)

Yes it does, Sheryl.  Yes, I am still *here* participating at a distance
though wondering why I continue to do so.  Something is here is PSYBER-L
that is valuable in a way that I am not consciously aware of and I trust to
that which urges me to patience with the process.  I guess that this lesson
of patience is what I need to cultivate in the cyclical changes of
lifestyle.  I fled from the classroom to a more psychological place only to
find myself once again back in the school system in a different role.  And
I wonder where the next change cycle will find me.  I notice that (and
sense that) the cycles are speeding up.  I'm learning that this has never
been an either/or though it has felt like that kind of equation.  Changes
are teaching me to hold *all* to contain *all* and thus integrate it
somehow ... perhaps not so much integrate as to become more conscious of
the complexity of *self* ... a porous being ...

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:03:38 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psybernet eGroup/dGroup
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Robert,
Here is what is bothering me about your post: that 'you' are
wondering about the wisdom of it. I did not participate in the
last dream event and so do not have the experience of you bailing
out as some of the others here do - although I do remember being
'cyber-napped' by you and put on another list without my permission
and therefore am wary of you. But here it seems that you are
immediately giving up any responsibility for your own participation
- letting 'others' decide whether or not you shall be a member
instead of acknowledging that you 'will' be a member AND a responsible
one (ie, no bailing out). So that's what's bothering me - not
whether you participate or not. Be responsible for yourself,
Robert. "I'm" not going to decide whether or not you are welcome
- if you have unfinished business with others here because of
the last event then finish it up before we start.

Cheryl


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Date:         Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:33:51 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Psybernet eGroup/dGroup
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Cheryl,

>I do remember being
>'cyber-napped' by you and put on another list without my permission
>and therefore am wary of you.

Good enough.  The dream event is an intense work and one that should not
happen without a sense of *full* trust, a sense of *temenos* for all
concerned.  You were not "cyber-napped" but be that as it may, the sense of
trust is loud and clear.

The *others* who I offered the choice were those of the last event who *do*
have a say.  This isn't to say that I don't have a responsibility to state
my own intent to participate, but to say that these *others* deserve a say
in my participation.

>Be responsible for yourself,
>Robert. "I'm" not going to decide whether or not you are welcome
>- if you have unfinished business with others here because of
>the last event then finish it up before we start.

It takes more than that, Cheryl.  I don't have all the dice, all the words.
 Do you know what words have or haven't been said?  Do you know the
response or non-response?  As for the *bail-out* that event wasn't fully a
project of *one* though it may appear to have been so.  In all relational
projects, the inter-relationships are key to the health of the whole.  This
is why I propose my consideration for the next event.  I have been here for
years and will still be here years down the road regardless of *glitches*
in my journey.

It is good to hear you speak up even if with anger and a sense of being
pissed-off with me.

Robert

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Date:         Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:21:10 +1300
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Psybernet eGroup/dGroup
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???

oh, never mind

i reckon you guyz do whatever you want,
lets just  be good kids to each other yeah ?

<Robert G. Longpr wrote:>
>Cheryl,
>It is good to hear you speak up even if with anger and a sense of being
>pissed-off with me.
>
>Robert

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Date:         Tue, 16 Nov 1999 00:52:01 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: which way does time flow?
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Sheryl,

Wow what a bundle of change!

> I chose this subject line because I have lost threads of the more recent
> subject lines...  and, it reflects, synchronistically, my own *space* in
> life, because I have *gone home* by moving in with my ex and sons.  I
> resigned my position as a birth counselor, and I'm refocusing on family
> connections and I in the process of evaluating my directions.  I am doing
> bookkeeping instead of anything related to psychology.

How is all that for you?

> For me, for now, time almost seems to be flowing backwards, in some respects.

So is it an ok thing?  A re-evaluation.

Am I off beam when i read a touch of sadness at a retreat?

> That aside, what you wrote above so resonnates with me, Walter... "a task for
> me in cyberspace" and the restlessness you feel connected with the unknown
> task, and how your interest in psychology, experential learning, etc. are
> also crucial to this unknown task.  I'm also asking myself these questions,
> of my own learning, scholarly and experential, especially the past few years.
>
> I see, however, that you continue your search with your egroup testing,
> Walter, and I want to say that I admire your tenacity :)

It does express how I feel... working hard on an unknown task!

Testing the technology is a piece of cake... like the sharpening
of pencils before writing a novel, essential, maybe even helpful
in attuning to the muse, but largely trivial.

The tenacity, if i have any at all, is to fulfil the unknown
task!  Doing an online dream group might be very helpful.
Certainly just the talk of it here is... interesting, exciting!

> I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, though... when do you feel closest
> to being on the path to this unknown crucial task?  Is it related to dream
> work?  Synchronicity, or especially multiple synchronicities?  Is it more
> present when you are in cyberspace or in *real life*?

Dream work and cyberspace seem to be in the right direction for
me.

In response to this question I was thinking about the times in
1992. I made a list of all the things that cyberspace bought up
of a psychological nature... identity, metaphor, the question of
what is real, projection & transference, gaia, belonging,
relationships. I was quite pleased with myself for seeing how the
Net would get us all thinking about these things in a new way.
Since then I have seen dozens of books come out on these very
subjects.  They are the books i wrote in my dreams. I feel regret
at not being able to get them out at the time!

But somehow books are not quite it for me.  I am drawn to
*experiential* stuff, doing it more than writing *about* it.  The
pull is strong to really grasp the psyche in cyberspace!

> Questions I'm sure asking myself would also benefit exploration of my own
> undefined task :)

Nice to be on a parallel exploration!



Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Nov 1999 01:08:02 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psybernet eGroup/dGroup
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Robert, (all)

I am keen that there is dream event and busy planning one.  What
i have in mind is that soonish i will post an invitation, with
details of the group and its process.

I don't have it clear yet about what will be in those docs: The
invite, the full description, the welcome file.

Should we post the invite beyond Psyber-L... at the moment i am
inclined to say yes, as we could do with new people here too.  On
the other hand I like small and familiar!  (comments, suggestions
welcome!)

However the process is planned, I imagine none of us will know
for sure who is *in* till they sub.  Given that, I hope you
simply go for it!  I'd be happy for you to be in there, and your
presence would be as valid and important as anyone's.  I'd hope
you see it that way.  Of course *however* you feel about being in
the group (in Psyber-L too of course) is just fine really, grist
to our mill. What an awful metaphor that is... we each bring our
unique flame to the larger fire.


Walter


> Walter,
>
> I wonder at the wisdom of this, but I do offer to become part of this
> group.  But in saying this, I do so only on the condition that the others
> of the group want me to be part of such a group.  I will accept the staying
> on the sidelines if even ONE voice fonds discomfort in my presence within
> such a group ....
>
> Robert




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:54:04 -0600
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From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Psybernet eGroup/dGroup
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Walter


>I hope you
>simply go for it!  I'd be happy for you to be in there, and your
>presence would be as valid and important as anyone's.  I'd hope
>you see it that way.

Thank you for that, Walter.  These are important words for me to hear.  I
will now decide when the time comes with a better sense of clarity.

merci,

rgl

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Date:         Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:36:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: frighteningfabulous
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all,

Walter writes,
>I know recently we have been speaking about the tendency not to want to go
>more deeply into personal matters here... I am pleased you have shared this
>and hope you will say more, it would help me to know you more.

For myself I feel it is more accurate to say that I'll choose to reveal
what seems appropriate to reveal given the parameters here. Parameter-wise,
above all, I'm aware any sense this group is but the friendly and honest
regulars is an illusion. That said, I'm in favor of getting to know people
better, yet, I'm also aware other parameters are invoked, especially in
this restricted medium.

Anyway, I'm devoting this morning to answering and responding to email:
partly I need to project my self-representation out into the cyber-ether! A
way to evoke being pinched, if you catch my drift.

***

Under my current circumstances, the events give a glimpse of what I'm
'going through' but not how I'm going through. Cheryl mentioned she's
moving back with her ex and sons. (Here I imagine, without much more
information, Cheryl, that this is a complicated, ambivalent move.) My
romantic partnership of six years has moved into a separation stage,
probably to fulfill a split. This separation is amicable (see below) and,
I, always better at beginnings and endings than the day work of
relationships, and she are redeveloping the previous four years or so.
(Sadly, we both neglected the garden.) Recently, I've seen her, better,
more fully than I have in years. Bittersweet, yes, because I love her.

Due to timing and our sharing of a lease, my partner and I tossed around
ideas about how to effect my leaving.

Then my mother learned that she will undergo first radiation and then
chemotherapy. She has a third floor suite, so I posed my dilemma as a
win/win. Yes, I am, at 45, back in my mother's house. As I told my former
wife over the phone a week ago, "This is a case of the puer aeternus moving
back into the maternal sphere...but at least I know the psychology!" In
anycase, my mother and I share tremendous intellectual affinities and get
along well. I enforce my boundaries and don't hesitate to fence with her
animus.

I am deeply ambivalent about this resolution, yet, think it is about the
best the situation has offered up. Not prone to self-sacrifice, the advent
of an opportunity to be here for my mother is almost an abstraction for me.
However, the sword of Democles hanging over her health is not abstract.

Now all of this is contrasted with my principle work commitment, even as
squareONE exists to the side of how I pay my bills. It's literally my
livelihood and the work I most profit from, even as I work to manage a
music store and keep the camel tethered.

How do I feel about all of this? I feel heavy and scared and open-minded;
also I'm feeling committed to seeing a bunch of stuff through, and my self
through. As I get older, I realize life is terrible. I don't mean by this
terrible=bad, but terrible=full of opposites; full of birth and death; full
of *just so*.

***

How to tend to the truth that arises out of the cosmic truth? I do not
easily serve my self or others, but now there simply is not much way to
squeeze through any other choices. Walter, I've never sought after an
optimal flow of events and really haven't been rigorous even about an
optimal flow of response to events; however I'll gladly make lemonade as
best as I am able to. And, as a person in Islam, I know that the terrible
is funded by mercy and compassion; a comfort, thank God.

***

best to all,

Stephen

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Date:         Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:38:58 -0500
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: squareONE
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all,

Walter asks about squareONE.

>When
>you say you are going to recount a summary, I presume that the more recent
>work is not online?

Updates are cursory. The web site isn't very hardworking now. In the future
this will change. Judith and I envision it will archive all sorts of
substantial materials; example will include downloadable outlines for the
tools we use, essays about experiential learning and awareness, and,
inevitably, use of the web as the 'commons' for online activities. Right
now, I try to keep the program announcements current. And, currently we
have no programs scheduled. We just finished doing two in the past month.

***

>Have you two been working with clients with you tools?  How is that going?

This is a very timely question. Judith and I have, after five years, and
especially after ten or so weeks of intense work together, developed a
mutual field that is substantial, sustainable and extensible via our
designs, potentially, to all sorts of learners, groups, clients.

There's nothing about what we've done in programs over the last four years
that couldn't be extended, but we've discovered -now- how our very
collaboration is the foundation of the real goods we have to offer. It is
kind of a combination of a change in emphasis and the revelation of a
substantial structure for explaining and implementing what experiential
learning/awareness and creative collaboration is about and how to translate
it into practical tools.

Furthermore, I am continually researching to find out about where the
various moving edges of adult learning, management, and self-development
theories are and how it is what squareONE does fits in and doesn't fit in.
Where it doesn't fit in represents to me our own unique cutting edge and
also makes distinct (i.e. differentiates) the exciting practice we have to
offer. This, God Willing, will fulfill squareONE's serving of any community
able to disover with our assistance what they wish to discover, especially
with respect to what is both valuable and practical from a personal
perspective.

***

>
>Have you considered doing more work with some of these processes online?

Yes. I have privately considered all sorts of variations of tools which
translate to this medium. What squareONE does is very similar to what
Charles has been developing. squareONE's vision for experiential awareness
concerns how group work with revelations of data, value, and connections
evokes reformulations of sensibility and reconfigurations of awareness. By
the way, the programs we've given over four years demonstrate clearly that
the work is fun, a real blast. . .much more fun than reading about it. :-)

Online work, in a way, is not hugely different than what we do in f2f work.
Right now squareONE has a big enough experiential stock to feed online work.

(Here's a bit of the flavor of the recent context of our work. In a big
moment in October I happened upon an exquisite quote. Incredibly this quote
seemed to fill in a blank drawn when Judith, some weeks before during a
discussion mentioned, "It's about refraction." She couldn't explain,
really, what she meant, but what she expressed then was held in our
collaborative field, nonetheless.

The quote, oddly, is from a CD jacket for a new recording by the ambient
composer Steve Roach.

*Refraction: the deflection from a straight path undergone by an energy
wave in passing from one medium, such as air, into another, more solid
form, such as glass. the sudden change in velocity effectively bends the
light, but if the new medium is transparent, a single ray of light reveals
a radiant display of color.*

This is metaphorically an apt description of what experiential awareness
may achieve; the correlations with ways we frame and term our work are
striking enough to suggest it is an analogous description. It's soul work
fed by spiritual process; in other words its fed by the exploration and
discovery of a greater order. Ideas about the inspiration of negentropy and
synchronicity also are apt in this sense.)

***

We don't ever overtly connect our work up with spirituality per say, but
the experience of sudden reformulations, insight and options for new
intentions and responses out of complex order (chaos!), as well as
practical new ways of being are inarguably transcendent experiences. (ref:
Corbin in the ps. to this response.)

Immodestly I would suggest this may be a direction some wish to head in;
one idea is: each of our own creative abilities and 'flexibility' are the
very riches which supports our being in our own truth, and, perhaps, also
is the direction away from the 'entropic' wandering among the so-called
riches outside of ourselves.

Finally, this is a flowering of my own 'dream'; Judith's too. High
transcendence aside, the work is very powerful yet practical; and the group
work aspect has become elemental to our designs.

Thanks for asking, and all for indulging this long response.

***

bright moments,

Stephen

ps.

"Who is sought? Who is the seeker? The two questions, belonging together,
cannot remain theoretical. In every case the revealing light has preceded
the revealed light, and phenomenology does no more than uncover later the
already accomplished fact. It is then that the five senses are transmuted
into other senses. Superata tellus didera donut: "And the earth transcended
brings us the gift of the stars" (Boethius)

Henri Corbin concluding _The Man of Light in Iranian Sufism_

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:07:29 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      inside the oyster
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Robert, all,

>But in saying this, I do so only on the condition that the others
>of the group want me to be part of such a group.  I will accept the staying
>on the sidelines if even ONE voice fonds discomfort in my presence within
>such a group ....

My intention, my friend, is to express the following to you respectfully,
and compassionately.

Do pearls desire the speck of sand; do they say 'yay' or 'nay'? Robert,
this is a condition you might have better kept to yourself. Do you see the
wisdom of doing so? (It still would have been your condition.)

I would prefer you risk absolutely and participate no matter what
reservations others have. As for your decision to do so, I'll support it
either way.

***

In the last dream group we made a pearl. Not a perfect pearl by any means,
but a pearl nonetheless. In dealing with the actuality of a real
anima-animus problem we discovered the force of flight and fight and fusion
and feeling. In my view it is pointless to castigate reality, expressed as
it was then; nor will I use it as a premonition to ward off what reality
may bring up in the future.

As Rumi, ra, put it, "Give me the flesh!"

And lets make another pearl all.

***

sincerely. Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:25:47 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psybernet eGroup/dGroup
In-Reply-To:  <FPQvONNCTMGZJuPGFVC6PIZ6TGma@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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all,

Walter writes,

>I am keen that there is dream event and busy planning one.

I would join this group. I do have reservations about what kind of
dreamwork may be effected in this medium. For example, I do not myself feel
the "if it were my dream" assumption is workable if the dream of a
particular dreamer is to be explored for the sake of that dreamer. (What i
feel about that specific kind of dreamwork is: the dreamer is the knower of
what may or may not be for his or her 'sake' or benefit.) But, that said,
some kind of provocation of an interpersonal field may be enjoined by using
dreams as data and signs, and I know very well something enlightening may
be evoked. I approach the prospect with both ambivalence and a willingness
to engage this kind of *dance*.

***

>Should we post the invite beyond Psyber-L...

I don't feel a leak-proof temenos is a possibility online. I've said so
before. Still, a group might make a nice basket together!

The qualification to any such invite is the difficulties which may (or may
not) arise with respect to different agendas and intentions. There is a
kind of voyeurism implicit should any person come at dreamwork with hidden
intentions and agendas. This would be potentially grievous if someone
should choose to either violate the ground rules *unconsciously* or come to
the group with a mind to taking its fruits elsewhere for "display".

I mention the latter possibility because I personally feel the publication
of dreamwork in the public sphere, in disregard for its private status, is
off target, and from my framing, mistaken. This goes along with my bias
against the value of other person's dreamwork for my own.

On the other hand, I don't know how participants would be qualified. One
advantage the first dreamgroup possessed was the group's makeup of persons
whom had already begun to get to know each other and forge a bit of trust.
It seems necessary that any group willing to stomp the shovel into the
soul's ground would need a bit of knowing and trust to be able to do so
consciously.

***

reagrds. Stephen

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Date:         Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:39:35 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: inside the oyster
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Stephen,

I want to thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.

>this is a condition you might have better kept to yourself.

I see from Cheryl's response that you are right.  I was amiss in presenting
this for the whole group.  Since it was in reality directed at Walter, you,
and others from the first event ... people who might consider participation
in a second event, I felt (and still feel) the need for permission.  Yet in
saying this, I realise that I need to give myself permission for this.

>I would prefer you risk absolutely and participate no matter what
>reservations others have. As for your decision to do so, I'll support it
>either way.

I am fully inclined to participate but will reserve decision of such
participation until such time as appropriate so as to consider all that
needs to be considered (life, work, energy, etc.).

>In the last dream group we made a pearl. Not a perfect pearl by any means,
>but a pearl nonetheless. In dealing with the actuality of a real
>anima-animus problem we discovered the force of flight and fight and fusion
>and feeling. In my view it is pointless to castigate reality, expressed as
>it was then; nor will I use it as a premonition to ward off what reality
>may bring up in the future.

This is an important distinction to make, the separation of past, present,
and future.  I have changed as has everyone else so there can be no going
back to repeat.  What was, was real.  What is now, is what is, not what was.

gratefully,

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Nov 1999 01:37:42 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: frighteningfabulous
In-Reply-To:  <99111519215304.11992@localhost.localdomain>
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Stephen, all,

Thanks for your posts Stephen.

I am sorry to hear about the ending of a relationship with the woman you love.
That is sad Stephen, even though you make it amicable and see it in the larger
context of life.

Yes life is full of things that are full of terror, opposites, birth and
death... it is a cruel blow for you, i think, that your mother is so ill just as
you are making these transitions.

Go well my friend.

I am deeply moved by these words of yours:


"I'll gladly make lemonade as best as I am able to."

and these too:

"And, as a person in Islam, I know that the terrible
is funded by mercy and compassion; a comfort, thank God."


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:34:31 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: which way does time flow?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To respond to your query, Walter...

In a message dated 11/15/99 4:53:22 AM Mountain Standard Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

>  So is it an ok thing?  A re-evaluation.
>
>  Am I off beam when i read a touch of sadness at a retreat?

Nope, you aren't off beam, and I admire your ability to discern this!

The touch of sadness in my retreat is primarily for the current environment
of *non profit* organizational *mental health*, at least here in Colorado,
but I suspect it is as widespread in the US.  In many ways, it is not only
bereft of caring but probably hurts more people than it helps.  Money, egoes
(?!), and occasionally individual pathology of the care providers certainly
seem to contribute to the mess.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:34:32 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      *Bailing out*
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 11/14/99 6:32:55 PM Mountain Standard Time,
aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA writes:

> Do you know what words have or haven't been said?  Do you know the
>  response or non-response?  As for the *bail-out* that event wasn't fully a
>  project of *one* though it may appear to have been so.  In all relational
>  projects, the inter-relationships are key to the health of the whole.  This
>  is why I propose my consideration for the next event.  I have been here for
>  years and will still be here years down the road regardless of *glitches*
>  in my journey.

Robert...

Your response to Cheryl about the dream event seemed a little defensive to
me, although I can understand why you would feel defensive. Your experience
here on PSYBER-L at various times seems to me to be one of being tagged with
a label that never dies.  With all the times I've seen you have to deal with
the *bailer outer* label seem to have been like punching at shadows.

Sometimes *bailing out* is as essential for a soul as breathing is to a body,
isn't it?

Usually, my own *bail outs* were to survive, whether physically,
relationally, or soulfully.  Wasn't survival at least part of your leaving
the first Dream Group?

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:34:30 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: which way does time flow?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Walter, all...

In a message dated 11/15/99 4:53:22 AM Mountain Standard Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> In response to this question I was thinking about the times in
>  1992. I made a list of all the things that cyberspace bought up
>  of a psychological nature... identity, metaphor, the question of
>  what is real, projection & transference, gaia, belonging,
>  relationships. I was quite pleased with myself for seeing how the
>  Net would get us all thinking about these things in a new way.
>  Since then I have seen dozens of books come out on these very
>  subjects.  They are the books i wrote in my dreams. I feel regret
>  at not being able to get them out at the time!

Were any of the books you've read one you really would have written?  Or did
they leave out some missing piece that you wish you could convey but would be
an essential piece of your personal on-line experiential learning?

For me, I suspect that contributes to the restlessness.  How could you, I,
any of us write the final chapter??!!!

>  But somehow books are not quite it for me.  I am drawn to
>  *experiential* stuff, doing it more than writing *about* it.  The
>  pull is strong to really grasp the psyche in cyberspace!
>

I think, however, that you are an artist in the experiential realm of psyche
of cyberspace.  Grasping the psyche, what a tall order!  A little like trying
to hold a cup of water in your hands.

But it doesn't keep some of us from trying, does it?  :)

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:41:33 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: frighteningfabulous
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Stephen, Robert, all...

In a message dated 11/16/99 9:36:03 AM Mountain Standard Time, hoon@APK.NET
writes:

> For myself I feel it is more accurate to say that I'll choose to reveal
>  what seems appropriate to reveal given the parameters here. Parameter-wise,
>  above all, I'm aware any sense this group is but the friendly and honest
>  regulars is an illusion. That said, I'm in favor of getting to know people
>  better, yet, I'm also aware other parameters are invoked, especially in
>  this restricted medium.

Interestingly, this morning I had decided to respond to prior PSYBER-L posts
before reading yours, Robert's, and Walter's posts of today.  Before sending
my posts, I did quite a job *editing* out much of my own personal
information, attempting to define my own parameters for posting to this space.

What we would like to say, or what I would like to say, in this space creates
a running, constant tension for me, IMO, learning to define the parameters or
what boundaries as an individual I invoke.  That in itself is a profoundly,
ongoing personal learning experience.

>  Anyway, I'm devoting this morning to answering and responding to email:
>  partly I need to project my self-representation out into the cyber-ether! A
>  way to evoke being pinched, if you catch my drift.

A touch of synchronicity... this is what I attempted to do this morning, but
not nearly as eloquently as you, I think!  The boundaries I erected to avoid
revealing much personal information makes me feel now like Barb Bodinage (is
that the correct spelling Robert?)

>  Under my current circumstances, the events give a glimpse of what I'm
>  'going through' but not how I'm going through. Cheryl mentioned she's
>  moving back with her ex and sons. (Here I imagine, without much more
>  information, Cheryl, that this is a complicated, ambivalent move.) My
>  romantic partnership of six years has moved into a separation stage,
>  probably to fulfill a split. This separation is amicable (see below) and,
>  I, always better at beginnings and endings than the day work of
>  relationships, and she are redeveloping the previous four years or so.
>  (Sadly, we both neglected the garden.) Recently, I've seen her, better,
>  more fully than I have in years. Bittersweet, yes, because I love her.

Well, first, it is Sheryl, not Cheryl, who mentioned moving back with my ex
and sons... I suspected that our identities would at some points become
confused in this place!  :)  Cheryl, IMO, has been wonderfully open in
posting here, while I, on the other hand, have been much more closed about
posting personal info since returning.

You are right that my own changes have been complicated and ambivalent, from
the moment I shared with a friend a dark place I had come to and his response
was *why don't you just go home?*  Because I felt I was going *backwards*
soulfully, financially, physically, and every other way that made me human,
it made sense.

I have no doubt that it was the best choice I could have made, but it has
been weird and strange and even bittersweet to not have the autonomy that I
had for some years. In some ways I feel like the past few years were a dream.

*Coming home*... I would rather, I think, share the how I have been doing it.
 Since not much has changed in the physical environment, I have gone to the
depth of drawers, boxes, even the flow of places like the kitchen, and
cleaned out.  I mean, really cleaned out, thrown out, given away.  It's been
like experiencing the past, present and future, all in a short period of
time.

It continually occurs to me that what I am doing is physical manifestation of
what I have experienced on a psychological and soulfull level, but is not
nearly as thrilling!  It is more like, now the real work comes into being.

Robert spoke of cycles... this is one for me, cycling back to a familiar
place but with a different perception of what is important, with a different
*me*... I imagine somewhat similar to both what you are experiencing,
Stephen, and also, Robert?

Sheryl

(Garner! :)

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:58:08 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: *Bailing out*
In-Reply-To:  <0.f72816ee.25645d48@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sheryl,

>Your response to Cheryl about the dream event seemed a little defensive to
>me, although I can understand why you would feel defensive.

Yes, it was defensive.  When it comes to discussion of the dream event I
have a very tender spot, likely because of the depth of my involvement in
that event and the role that I found myself carrying, an archetypal role.

>Your experience
>here on PSYBER-L at various times seems to me to be one of being tagged with
>a label that never dies.  With all the times I've seen you have to deal with
>the *bailer outer* label seem to have been like punching at shadows.

I think that this has much to do with bringing that dialogue here after the
event with others of this group who had not participated, others who felt
somewhat abandoned by those who turtled into a smaller group.  And then
with the growth of the group the dialogue became even more stilted and more
difficult to address.  I think that part of this difficulty stemmed from
the fact that we honoured the request to bring it to the group rather than
carry on dialogues back-channel.

>Sometimes *bailing out* is as essential for a soul as breathing is to a body,
>isn't it?

It most definitely is/was for me.  It is not too surprising that following
this I had to take time to retreat from most things including work and
family to rebuild a sense of *self*.  The dream event wasn't a contributing
factor to that.  Yet, the event did highlight for me a need to find a
balance in my f2f world as I was too much in the domaine of spirit and the
inner world.  I was caught in the vortex of anima.

>Usually, my own *bail outs* were to survive, whether physically,
>relationally, or soulfully.  Wasn't survival at least part of your leaving
>the first Dream Group?

It was everything.  I not only left the event, I left all of cyberspace and
gave up my Internet account.  Even the professional areas which had focused
on educational uses of Internet (published by Hammond Press in 1998) were
abandoned.  It took total withdrawal to relocate a sense of *self* that had
a foundation in reality.  In the following fall I took a week-long retreat
away from everything taking only a few books, and a few necessities.  It
has been a long recovery towards a balance, towards survival.  And that
journey still continues ...

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:09:59 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: which way does time flow?
In-Reply-To:  <0.880646e.25645d46@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl,

You wrote:
> Were any of the books you've read one you really would have written?  Or did
> they leave out some missing piece that you wish you could convey but would be
> an essential piece of your personal on-line experiential learning?

A beautiful question.  No, none are exactly as i would want
them... but then I can't get the one I want out at all!  I can't
even envisage it.  Sometimes I can see a cover, a title:
Psyberspace. I have drafts I don't really like.

> For me, I suspect that contributes to the restlessness.  How could you, I,
> any of us write the final chapter??!!!

The final chapter is a way off surely!  But you are right... just
writing this email gets me restless!

> I think, however, that you are an artist in the experiential realm of psyche
> of cyberspace.

Thank you.  Good for me to hear that.

> Grasping the psyche, what a tall order!

Too tall an order, but easy to want to grasp once I have had a
glimpse.

> A little like trying
> to hold a cup of water in your hands.

Holding a cup of water in my hands reminds me of a dream I had a
while back and have been wanting to post here. I am intrigued now
by the two empty glasses in the dream. I thought of it as a
resolution of the dream where I was on a ladder on the side of a
window with no where to go, stuck.  Maybe i have already posted
it here.

~

I was in a cave dwelling. I slipped on a wet, natural, rounded
stone floor, landed on my side, quite gently, and was holding a
glass in each hand.  I looked at the glasses with surprise; I had
not dropped them in the fall, or used my hands to break the fall.

~

Sheryl, good to hear from you,

Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:53:07 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Backchannel - when to use it.
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19991117184241.00941220@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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All,

Robert, you mention a couple of things in:

  Re: *Bailing out*
  Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:58:08 -0600

related to backchannel posts, ie private posts to other members
of the same forum, and the relationship between other Psybernet
groups and Psyber-L.

These matters are the stuff of psyche in cyberspace. I'd love to
look at the more general principles involved, with reference to
literature on the web if there is any, and of course our
experience as and when we wish to share that.

I will start two new threads, this one and the other on the
relationship between various forums.  I hope we can explore these
topics thoroughly.

Here are some of the issues... I will raise them in this post,
and say more later.

Two factors on which a lot depends: the nature & purpose of the
email and of the group involved.  How do these factors influence
things.

Should there be a policy on this if so when and what?

How might any of this be different if it involves the listowner /
host / facilitator?

Should there be reference to private posts in the forum, even if
the actual emails remain private?


Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Nov 1999 00:33:11 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      One Psybernet, more than one mailing list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

Robert you mentioned the phenomena that happened here at the time
of the first dream group when there was one open list and another
closed list and so on.  I was conscious of the exodus as well,
and how it created an inclusion exclusion dynamic.

Cheryl mentioned we could have a dreamevent here, in Psyber-L...
and we have been sharing dreams, I hope we do more.  Just as she
mentioned that i was planning one using another list, and I am
enthusiastic for that right now!  The proposal is almost ready.

Another thing that has been on my mind, ever since psyber-l went
more private, is another list which is much more open and more
journalistic, more informative, and aimed at a broad group of
people who are interested in all aspects of psyche in cyberspace.

I think it would be good to discuss all of this further.


Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:54:55 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psybernet eGroup/dGroup
In-Reply-To:  <v04220802b4573fe03d64@[207.54.181.102]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

Stephen, you wrote:

> I would join this group.

Great to hear that... it sounds from the indications here that we will have a
viable group.

> I do have reservations about what kind of
> dreamwork may be effected in this medium. For example, I do not myself feel
> the "if it were my dream" assumption is workable if the dream of a
> particular dreamer is to be explored for the sake of that dreamer. (What i
> feel about that specific kind of dreamwork is: the dreamer is the knower of
> what may or may not be for his or her 'sake' or benefit.) But, that said,
> some kind of provocation of an interpersonal field may be enjoined by using
> dreams as data and signs, and I know very well something enlightening may
> be evoked. I approach the prospect with both ambivalence and a willingness
> to engage this kind of *dance*.

The "If it were my dream..." approach is not built in as integral to what I'm
drafting up at the moment.  I don't have the misgivings you do about the
approach, and feel fine about doing it here in Psyber-l or in any dreamgroup.
It brings out my reflections on who is me, who are you and what is "we".  The
dream is to be explored for the sake of the dreamer, that is how it should be,
that feels right to me, exploration without respect for the dreamer is no good.
When I enter into a dream, and explore it as my own, then I am saying *nothing*
about the dreamer, only about my self.

At that point the dreamer, as you say has something to work with, a provocation.
They will know more about their dream through either a sense of Yes, Aha! or No.
Only they will know.

There are some complications though.  Through respect, fear, transference, love
whatever, the dreamer may take more stock of the other persons insight than they
should.  This could even be unconscious.  What are we to do?  This goes on all
the time, it would be there sharing dreams or not.  Perhaps by getting into this
work these departures from the self are revealed more easily.  In a group such
departures may be observed by others who can draw attention to it.  What they
see will of course also be "influenced" by their "fog".

I can get as much out of looking at another person's dreams as my own.  I have
in f2f work (half jokingly, but with serious intent) suggested to clients who
cant remember dreams to bring someone else's!

When we do it with the other person there, and they come back with a clear No,
then we can be sure that the insight tells us more about us than them.  But that
applies even if the two dream insights are the same!  When we do and "as fir it
were mine..."  then it is about us.

I think it gets even more interesting though...

Is there a "we"?  Are we somehow tapping into something larger than us both
which is using our "interpersonal field" to reveal itself? I think so. Even if
this is only a metaphor for a mystery!


Enough for mow!


Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Nov 1999 14:11:58 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psybernet eGroup/dGroup
In-Reply-To:  <v04220802b4573fe03d64@[207.54.181.102]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen, you wrote in:

  Re: Psybernet eGroup/dGroup
  Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:25:47 -0500

Good to have your thoughts on these matters Stephen.

> >Should we post the invite beyond Psyber-L...
>
> I don't feel a leak-proof temenos is a possibility online. I've said so
> before. Still, a group might make a nice basket together!

Basket alchemy!

> The qualification to any such invite is the difficulties which may (or may
> not) arise with respect to different agendas and intentions. There is a
> kind of voyeurism implicit should any person come at dreamwork with hidden
> intentions and agendas. This would be potentially grievous if someone
> should choose to either violate the ground rules *unconsciously* or come to
> the group with a mind to taking its fruits elsewhere for "display".

I set a lot of store by the "design" of a group, on and off line.  The temenos
is made from stuff like rules and tools, and mostly the dialogue we enter into.
With respect to rules, at least we can state them, and enforce them to some
extent.  The tools (mailing lists etc. are not perfect, but it makes a big
difference if we "close or lock the door" even if we cant prevent a break in.
The main thing is dialogue.

I see it as fine now to state that participation is expected, and to
backchannel if it is not forthcoming, and if it seems that there is no response
or interest in removing people off the list.

The tools in this Lsoft list allow that to be done automatically! It can also be
done personally.

Stating these things up front is important, however they can be stated at any
time really.


> I mention the latter possibility because I personally feel the publication
> of dreamwork in the public sphere, in disregard for its private status, is
> off target, and from my framing, mistaken. This goes along with my bias
> against the value of other person's dreamwork for my own.

In the group I am drafting everything is to remain in the group.  People own
their own words.  Any publication would be a breach of confidence and ethics.

> On the other hand, I don't know how participants would be qualified. One
> advantage the first dreamgroup possessed was the group's makeup of persons
> whom had already begun to get to know each other and forge a bit of trust.
> It seems necessary that any group willing to stomp the shovel into the
> soul's ground would need a bit of knowing and trust to be able to do so
> consciously.

My plan at this point is to post the invitation to people and places where i
know there is a high interest in these things.  Where i know some of the people.
I will ask others to do the same.

The first phase is to "connect"... any connection that feels less than trusting
will be the black stuff, the grist in our basket! The fertiliser.


All the best, Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:19:59 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: One Psybernet, more than one mailing list
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Walter,
I hadn't realized that Psybernet was more than one mailing list.
Should I go to the home page to figure this out? How many mailing
lists are part of Psybernet? How many people total? Do you know?
(I'm not asking for an exact count - just to get an idea of the
bigger picture here.

You mentioned something about 'interpersonal fields' I think.
Are you aware of the work of Rupert Sheldrake? He's interested
in what he callls 'morphogenetic fields" and morphic resonances.
His work has been in the animal realm but as I read your post
(in reply to Stephen) I was reminded of Sheldrake. A morphogentic
field would be, in sheldrake's hypothesis, what enables geese
or flocks of birds to all turn in synchronicity while flying,
or what may bond animals and owners together - so naturally I
jumped
to the question, could such a 'field' operate in an environment
like cyberspace? Curious to think about. Sheldrake has a web-site:
www.sheldrake.org and at least a couple of books - his original
one was "A New Science of Life" He's now loking at bonds between
mothers and infants.
Many years ago he had offered a large monetary 'prize' for anyone
who could design an experiment to demonstate the actual existence
of morphogenetic fields. I had had an experience which I almost
wrote to about but I never thought I could design an experiment.
Just at little syncronicity here since I heard him on National
Public Radio this afternoon and then read your message. Hadn't
though about him in a couple of years.

Cheryl



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Date:         Sat, 20 Nov 1999 17:46:33 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: One Psybernet, more than one mailing list
In-Reply-To:  <191199323.62399@204.245.234.122>
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Cheryl

> I hadn't realized that Psybernet was more than one mailing list.
> Should I go to the home page to figure this out? How many mailing
> lists are part of Psybernet? How many people total? Do you know?
> (I'm not asking for an exact count - just to get an idea of the
> bigger picture here.

The bigger picture is an idea!  hehe

I have a picture in my head of online groups of some sort.  There
really are't any.  Last time we did that, three years ago, I was
overwhelmed by it, and the complexity of two lists that it is
only now I feel ready to tackle something again.  I feel much
more confident about such things, though I know we are still
learning.

I can imagine many lists, but right now they don't exist.

There are plenty of forums on the web like Utne the well and
Salon where there are many topics being discussed in a
"community".  I like those things on occasion, and am a member of
a private one, but they tend to be *social*, focussed on
discussion.  Here we can go into the process more without it
being seen as "thrash".

I do have a few other lists, like the one for writing the Roles
document, and so on.  I'd not really think of them as Psybernet.
Actually it is a joint one that Dan and I do.  The other one is
the test list in egroups, where I am thinking we could have more
groups.

~~~

> You mentioned something about 'interpersonal fields' I think.
> Are you aware of the work of Rupert Sheldrake?

Interesting stuff.  I have read some of his stuff.  I was not
really thinking of anything with the sort of *literal* power of
the fields he talks about, but simply the fact that when we are
together, we can focus on the interconnection.  It then has
qualities.


Warm wishes,

Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Nov 1999 14:56:20 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Psyber-sychology
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Walter, All, especially those in the past Dream Event....

You've hit on my biggest concern with dreamwork,
cyberspace/psyberspace/psyber-sychology, and so much more, because how can
any one of us know who or what another is dealing with in these very personal
realms?

I do NOT mean to be discouraging, critical, negative of plans for dreamwork
or any other psychoanalytic soul depth work, and please don't read my
thoughts that way!  In fact, it is because, I think, I truly love
psychoanalysis, and that I am always psychoanalyzing almost everything, that
I present this devil's advocate stance...

In a message dated 11/19/99 5:51:39 PM Mountain Standard Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> At that point the dreamer, as you say has something to work with, a
> provocation.
>  They will know more about their dream through either a sense of Yes, Aha!
or
> No.
>  Only they will know.

Yes, the Aha's, how powerful they can be!  IMO, they can be powerful enough
to tip a person from sanity to insanity...  and that is my fear!

Without giving specifics, I believe I have seen this happen to some people,
and to me to an extent.  While I value my personal experience, exhilarating
sometimes, frightening at other times, for some others I am not sure that
sanity can be maintained.

>  There are some complications though.  Through respect, fear, transference,
> love
>  whatever, the dreamer may take more stock of the other persons insight
than
> they
>  should.  This could even be unconscious.  What are we to do?  This goes on
> all
>  the time, it would be there sharing dreams or not.  Perhaps by getting
into
> this
>  work these departures from the self are revealed more easily.  In a group
> such
>  departures may be observed by others who can draw attention to it.  What
> they
>  see will of course also be "influenced" by their "fog".

Reading this, I thought of various *mental illnesses* listed in the DSM IV,
particulary borderline, narcissistic, obsessive compulsive, bipolar... the
impact of the kind of depth that Psyber-sychology could have on people with
those tendencies.  I dislike the labels, but they do describe qualities in
people to one degree or another.

Yes, that the transference and projection goes on all the time is true, but
the complication for me comes in the *knowing of the other*... not an easy
thing to do in cyberspace.

Someone with no boundaries, for example...  how much of another's projections
does s/he absorb in a CMC environment, such as a dream event?  How does it
impact her/his real life?  Would s/he have the boundaries essential to not
let it all leak into RL?

>  I can get as much out of looking at another person's dreams as my own.  I
> have
>  in f2f work (half jokingly, but with serious intent) suggested to clients
> who
>  cant remember dreams to bring someone else's!

I like this approach to dreams and it makes sense to me.  It provides
feedback for the *knowing* of another.  What is important to the person
exploring the dream will stand out, so it doesn't matter whose dream it is.
But there is a different sort of connection with your client, with the
relationship falling into a more tangible zone, doesn't it?

Walter, other members of the last Dream Event... can you address some of
these issues and the impact as you saw them?  Could some of the fears I've
expressed be related to what Robert experienced?

I wish I could get beyond the doubts I have about Psyber-sychology!  I am
very  caught in inner conflict about all this, and maybe some discussion in
PSYBER-L could help.  The doubts and hesitations I have related to these
issues seem to be at the crux of my own lack of movement in my personal
directions in cyberspace.

Sheryl G

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Nov 1999 17:21:44 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-sychology
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Sheryl, all,

You spoke of many things that have made me wonder about things that are
happening in the f2f version of reality that I live within here in
west-central Canada.  Psychology/cyber-psychology ... projections ... CMC
.... relationships ........ these are issues which only seem to be becoming
more and more part of the real-world.

I came home for the week-end to find out that an acquaintance has decided
to travel halfway across Canada to meet with a woman he has been talking
with for some time.  The object of this voyage is to seek a partner.
Another, the daugther of another aquaintance has just married a man she met
online from Europe.  They now live in a nearby city.  A boy of 17 is
heading off to Australia to meet a 15 year old girl with whom he has fallen
in love ... he has his plane ticket ready.  My son finally broke up with a
girl he met online.  They had been going out f2f and on-line for two years.
 Now, I have just been phoned by a client who called to tell me he now has
a girl friend.  She lives and works in the same town.  ICQ has been the
main vehicle of communication between them for the past while.

Something about this medium calls us to *depth* and allows us to speak in a
manner that feels denied to us in f2f reality.  And in the speaking and
listening, the fairytale worlds open up to us and we project so much of
what we wish for on an *other*.  It is almost like a call to soul, a call
to a soulmate for those unversed in the power and danger of CMC.

This demands special skills for those who would enter this realm as a place
of healing, as a healer.  Perhaps what these attempts with dream events can
give us are just these skills that are so needed.  And given the context
and container that Walter has provided and is again in the process of
providing we are able to develop a compass and communication skill to
navigate these CMC waters with safety.

Yes, we can get lost in these cyberspaces if the ability to differentiate
between cyber and f2f reality is not in place.  Once in place, I feel that
the profession of healing the psyche will be enriched as this is indeed an
environment that can allow both therapist and the wounded to meet within a
container of magic and myth.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Nov 1999 16:26:00 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-sychology
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Robert and Sheryl,
You have both mentioned CMC - What is this? I don't know to what
this refers.

Sheryl,
Can I ask a plain question? Do you mean that people participating
in something like a dream event can become psychotic from the
experience? Does this happen to people? Is this really a concern
in cyberspace? Something I hadn't even considered. I was in Phoenix
recently for a meeting and we were treated to an evening at a
place called "Gameworks' where there were seeminly endless virtual
reality games, etc. It was something I had never done before
but I was 'game' so I played quite a few for a couple of hours.
What surprised me the next day was I kept having this experience
that I had actually 'done' those things in the sense of a 'dream"
- that I'd had a 'dream' for instance that I was in a motorcycle
race after having sat on a motorcycle with a virtual reality
'game'.It was very strange how the 'game' had seeped into my
mind as if it had been a dream.

Robert - I don't know why I am surprised that you live in western
Canada but I am

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Date:         Sat, 20 Nov 1999 18:49:07 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-sychology
In-Reply-To:  <201199324.59155@204.245.234.88>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cheryl,

>CMC - What is this?

Computer-Mediated Communication.

>Robert - I don't know why I am surprised that you live in western
>Canada but I am.

That is curious.  Why? Where did you think I was living.  I realise that
each of us builds mental images and with them attach projections and
suppositions so as to cloak these people we meet in cyberspace.  I live in
a small community of 1500 on weekends and live and work in a yet even
smaller one during the week (two and a half hours distant from home).

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:34:06 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyber-sychology
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19991120170230.00937640@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
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Robert, Sheryl, all

Sheryl, you have raised some great questions and thanks for
sharing your concerns.  I hope we discuss this thoroughly.

Interesting stories Robert about the online and f2f
relationships. There is a merging an blurring there of the two
modes.

Robert wrote:
> This demands special skills for those who would enter this realm as a place
> of healing, as a healer.  Perhaps what these attempts with dream events can
> give us are just these skills that are so needed.  And given the context
> and container that Walter has provided and is again in the process of
> providing we are able to develop a compass and communication skill to
> navigate these CMC waters with safety.

I think it is true that there are skills to be learnt.  There is
the whole business of "designing" the group.  All the things that
go into the perameters of the group's container.  Stephen called
it a basket, but I am more optimistic really, though it is wise
to know that there can be leaks.  There is also the role of
administrator / host / facilitator, I know i have been wrestling
with all this and feel as though we have learnt a lot.

I don't think we are doing anything too dangerous.  There may be
disasters and terrible things happen, but I don't think that is
the medium's problem per se.  The advent of paper and pencils led
to Leonardo Da Vinci as well as horrible ransom notes, bad
designs etc. We did live in a simpler age before paper, some
disasters were not possible without it.

~~~

I want to make a strong disclaimer.  While I might be "providing"
something, as anyone who sets up a group online does, is 100% up
to participants to judge what is right for them.  I do not come
here as "healer". Of all the roles I have explored I want to stay
away from that one.  What I like about Psybernet, and Psyber-L is
that we have managed to look at psyche right outside a medical or
even a health context.  That is fantastic as far as I am
concerned.  Perhaps the Internet has helped in that process. For
all that we are going into new and somewhat unchartered areas...
exploring the psyche is always like that.  Who knows what will
happen.  Who know if it is safe?

Sheryl, I am somehow going from feeling that this is all ok, and
that even though it is ok, that won't stop eruptions of the
psyche which may have painful consequences.  I'd be interested to
know what you are thinking and feeling now that a few of us have
responded.  Is there a specific fear, that might relate to you
personally?

~~~

One more tiny thing.  I think these discussions about "safety"
and "temenos" relate to Psyber-L as much as the dreamevents.
There is a difference of time span, and a closed membership, and
we make use of some more structure. People are still people.


Walter,

Thinking it is better to have loved and lost, than not to have
loved at all.
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:04:33 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-sychology
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Walter, Robert, Cheryl, all...

First, I absolutely acknowledge the powerful potential of CMC, specifically
depth and psyche/soul exploration on-line!  If I didn't believe in its power,
I would not have raised some of these questions I have.

Also, I hope that by expressing myself as I have does not cause anyone to
assume that I believe that they are *bad* or that anyone is *wrong* to pursue
psychological depth work via CMC.  As Robert pointed out, it changes lives.

In a message dated 11/20/99 8:31:50 PM Mountain Standard Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> I want to make a strong disclaimer.  While I might be "providing"
>  something, as anyone who sets up a group online does, is 100% up
>  to participants to judge what is right for them.  I do not come
>  here as "healer". Of all the roles I have explored I want to stay
>  away from that one.  What I like about Psybernet, and Psyber-L is
>  that we have managed to look at psyche right outside a medical or
>  even a health context.  That is fantastic as far as I am
>  concerned.  Perhaps the Internet has helped in that process. For
>  all that we are going into new and somewhat unchartered areas...
>  exploring the psyche is always like that.  Who knows what will
>  happen.  Who know if it is safe?

There still seems to be not much directed, from what I've been able to find,
on research, other than the flaky addressing of *Internet Addiction* (and I
don't even want to think about going there!!!)  The opportunities for the
kinds of research I would like to see are vast... from the angle of physics,
like what kinds of energy exchanges could be taking place between user and
computer to depth analysis of all kinds of on-line relationships.

Because only a little, but not too much of that seems to be happening,
though, finding the kinds of safeguards that could be instituted in depth CMC
such a dream event is a difficult... a personality test to indicate whether
someone is properly *ego oriented* (ha!)???  A strong disclaimer does make
good sense to me, though.

I don't think the experential method of discovery is *wrong*, and probably,
the best safeguard I can think of is someone like you, Walter, and your
having a strong presence in something like a dream event.

With your combination of experiences in RL, especially psychodrama and depth
psychotherapies, and various CMC psychological depth work, you are likely
more aware of some of the fragile areas, do you agree?

>  Sheryl, I am somehow going from feeling that this is all ok, and
>  that even though it is ok, that won't stop eruptions of the
>  psyche which may have painful consequences.  I'd be interested to
>  know what you are thinking and feeling now that a few of us have
>  responded.  Is there a specific fear, that might relate to you
>  personally?

My specific fear is related to wanting to *do no harm*, but doing nothing at
all sometimes is as harmful as taking the risks.  Otherwise we learn nothing.

Robert's stories of on-line relationships seemed to have at least some
positive aspects.  I have stories of some very positive on-line
relationships, too, but also of some less than positive.  One was a friend
who became diverted from a simple research project into some dark,
mega-paranoid on-line crusade that leaked all over into RL, and I couldn't
(and wouldn't) even begin to number the complications that presented.

I think what happened in my friend's and many other cases I've heard is that
the line between fantasy, projection, transference, etc. blurrs between CMC
and RL, one realm leaking into the other realm.

Cheryl, in response to your question... I do not know of anyone who became
psychotic from CMC, but I do know several people whose lives changed
profoundly following their involvement with it and just do not know how to
deal with it.  The stuff of *insanity* was probably there all the time.  TV,
movies, the radio... all are having some impact on people, and maybe bringing
out sanity/insanity, too!  Exploring cyberspace is uniquely individual,
though, so has different, more powerful trigger potential.

Even for those who I think suffered *negative* effects through
cybercommunicating, though, I have a spiritual/transpersonal leaning in
psychology that tells me these changes can also be a *good* thing, if they
can figure out how to see it that way, and that is the challenge!

>  One more tiny thing.  I think these discussions about "safety"
>  and "temenos" relate to Psyber-L as much as the dreamevents.
>  There is a difference of time span, and a closed membership, and
>  we make use of some more structure. People are still people.
>

I think they relate to Psyber-L, too... but this is a sort of closed forum,
as compared to dream events which are closed.  As I hope you understand from
above, I've worked out some of my doubts based on your involvement.

For the most part, posters to Psyber-L over the years have generally seemed
*ego intact* (for lack of a better description!) to me, although there have
been a few, occasionally, who have concerned me.  I couldn't say why I felt
concerned for them, precisely, whether it was my intuition, something that
was written, or who know, maybe even response time... but I suspect that you
and others have also experienced this.  In a more focused medium like a dream
event, are you comfortable in identifying and expressing this kind of
concern?  I'm not sure how comfortable I would be in doing that.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses, all, btw :)

Sheryl

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:08:05 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyber-sychology
In-Reply-To:  <0.d318c259.256afbd1@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl, all,

> There still seems to be not much directed, from what I've been able to find,
> on research, other than the flaky addressing of *Internet Addiction* (and I
> don't even want to think about going there!!!)  The opportunities for the
> kinds of research I would like to see are vast... from the angle of physics,
> like what kinds of energy exchanges could be taking place between user and
> computer to depth analysis of all kinds of on-line relationships.

Research of the psychological is tricky. I believe that the best work with the
psyche is contained.  Within that containment we can watch the emergence of
psychic (I mean natural, not supernatural) phenomena. We do that here in this
mailing list. These phenomena are not purely subjective, yet they are not
objective either.  I think it right that on many occasions in Psyber-L we have
strung opposites together, solunary, subjective-objective.


I have just deleted a long bit where i expounded on research... I have had it
sitting here for a few days and was not happy with it.  I will work more on it
some time.

~~~

> Because only a little, but not too much of that seems to be happening,
> though, finding the kinds of safeguards that could be instituted in depth CMC
> such a dream event is a difficult... a personality test to indicate whether
> someone is properly *ego oriented* (ha!)???  A strong disclaimer does make
> good sense to me, though.

I am sure your (ha!)??? indicated that you think this a sort of nonsense.

> I don't think the experential method of discovery is *wrong*, and probably,
> the best safeguard I can think of is someone like you, Walter, and your
> having a strong presence in something like a dream event.

I think there are many factors involved here... the actual statement of purpose,
the guidelines etc, have an impact.  They are one of the things we use to weave
our basket  :) Here is a snippet from the guidelines I am drafting and which I
will post in a day or so for a dreamevent:


|  * Participation Guidelines

|  Personal attacks and threats will not be tolerated, and all
|  members are expected to maintain a high standard of respect for
|  authentic dialogue and etiquette.

Knowing the roles that are required, stating them and knowing how to enact them
is also important.

So I agree that *someone like me* is a safeguard, but I think it learnable and
definable, and not personal to me. We will never know all there is to know, and
there are many ways of doing these things.  I hope we are all learning about
this, and that more groups will happen with other facilitators.

> With your combination of experiences in RL, especially psychodrama and depth
> psychotherapies, and various CMC psychological depth work, you are likely
> more aware of some of the fragile areas, do you agree?

Yes.  It can be very confusing though.  In f2f work there are many different
variables.  For example i have asked all the members of the group to assist in
holding a person while they had a major catharsis.  In a f2f group we can
encourage instant feedback and attention to someone who goes into a crazy space.

On the other side of the coin, I have a sense that the very act of typing in
solitude while also connected, here we go... solitartycompanionship,
alonetogether, is a grounding act.  One unavailable to f2f groups.

> My specific fear is related to wanting to *do no harm*, but doing nothing at
> all sometimes is as harmful as taking the risks.  Otherwise we learn nothing.

I read a reassuring passage by Jung, though i forget where (does anyone know it?
I think it might be in "Man and his (sic) Symbols". I like the opening chapter
there on dreams ...)  He urged therapists not to be too concerned about damaging
the individual's psyche.  He said it was self healing, just as our broken bones
will heal.  He might have said that in a different way.

Also the "harm" might be simply someone feeling bad, or having a crisis.  We all
hate them, but we need crisis.  Things need to come to a head... clouds turn to
rain... We can't easily judge these things.  If in the end I thought all this
was harmful to people i would stop.

> Even for those who I think suffered *negative* effects through
> cybercommunicating, though, I have a spiritual/transpersonal leaning in
> psychology that tells me these changes can also be a *good* thing, if they
> can figure out how to see it that way, and that is the challenge!

Yes :)  You said it first!


> I think they relate to Psyber-L, too... but this is a sort of closed forum,
> as compared to dream events which are closed.

That small difference makes a big difference, I agree.  For all that, this
Psyber-L is linked to the other closed groups and that in itself presents
profound complexities.

> As I hope you understand from
> above, I've worked out some of my doubts based on your involvement.

Great.


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Nov 1999 18:52:48 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      == Psybernet Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000 ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

== Psybernet Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000 ==

Invitation, Description and Guidelines

The Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000 is a group to explore dream
life, to learn about the psyche, and to share struggles and
celebrate joys.  The event will span the New Year period. This
millennial time is an opportunity for archetypal experiences and
dreams. This Dreamevent can focus our awareness and be a forum to
share how the transition impacts on our lives and on our psyche.
The group starts on 10 December 1999 and continues for
approximately 3 months.

I am Walter Logeman, a psychotherapist in Christchurch,
New Zealand and the founder of Psybernet, a project for
psychologically oriented work online. Psybernet has been running
online groups since 1993 and hosted a successful Dreamevent in
1996. I was impressed how the Net made it possible for us to work
collaboratively with our dreams and reveal psychological depths
in a new way. Psybernet is hosting this event, and I will be
facilitating the group.

As the Dreamevent unfolds the interconnections will be brought
into focus using the HipBone Game designed by Charles Cameron.
Using this approach to dreams was pioneered in the 1996 event
which Charles and I co-facilitated.  The process is called a
'game' as it is inspired by the profound Glass Bead Game, which
is central in the novel with that title by Hermann Hesse. Charles
has generously given me the full use of his copyrighted material
for this group. Read more about the game on the HipBone web site.
For links to the site and other background information see the
Links section below.

The discussions will be in a mailing list using plain text and
here will also be a place to post graphics or other multimedia
files. A hypertext "Dreamevent Document" will be created as part
of the group's work.

I am pleased to invite you to join this group.



*    Read on to find out about:



Facilitation
Who is Invited?
Three Phases of the Dreamevent
Timing
The Process
Graphics and the Dreamevent Document
Privacy Guidelines
Participation Guidelines
How to Join
Links



*   Facilitation

I will be the facilitator and host for this event.  What we dream
is in the lap of the gods, what we do with our dreams and how the
group unfolds is up to all the members.  I will aim to ensure
that we respect the purpose of the group and the participation
and privacy guidelines.  I will also attend to the time structure
of the event.

As we will be using the HipBone Games I will offer guidance and
information to assist in this aspect of the group. I will edit
the Dreamevent document, which will be private to the group.

I expect to be a member and full participant in the group.

To add some more words about myself: My main training is in
Psychodrama and I have an interest in the work of Carl Jung.
I have participated in and conducted dream groups on and off
line. I am the originator of Psybernet, which explores "psyche
in cyberspace" and this event promises to enhance that process.
I look forward to being involved.

Charles Cameron has agreed to be my mentor in the facilitation
of the HipBone Games.



*   Who is Invited?



All who think this group is for them once they have read and
understood the description and agree to respect the privacy and
participation guidelines in this document.

Joining this group indicates that you are 100% responsible for
your own well-being and learning and that you understand that the
group members or facilitator are not obligated to offer healing,
therapy or support.

This invitation will be initially posted in Psyber-L and to
participants of the earlier Dreamevent.  Two days later it will
be made more widely available.

Maximum number of participants: 16.



*   Three Phases of the Dreamevent.


One

The first is the introductory phase, during which the
participants will meet, introduce themselves and connect. The aim
is to lay the basis for a cohesive and caring group.

This may be a time of sharing dreams and to hear what is emerging
in the life of our group as a whole.

There will also be opportunity to familiarise with the medium and
to make sure people are comfortable with the technology.

Two

This is the linking dreams phase. Using the Waterbird board, part
of the HipBone game structure and our ability to see patterns, we
will bring focus to the emerging themes in an aesthetically
pleasing and revealing way.  We will place dreams in relationship
to each other and describe the nature of the links we see.

Dreams may be linked by a similarity of topic, feeling or the
common connection to a deeper archetypal theme.  Exploring the
themes and possible links, offering suggestions and encouragement
is a collaborative process. However, making the actual move of
your dream is an individual choice.  I will provide guidance with
respect to the HipBone game.  Others who are familiar can also
help with this.  The Dreamevent document will evolve during this
time.  It will provide a hypertext of the moves and links made in
the posts to the group. See the Links section below for more
information on HipBone Games.

A game closes when ten moves are completed.  This phase will have
at least one game.  It is possible there will be more than one
game, it will depend on the sort of energy the group generates.


Three

The third phase is that of closure, a time to share our
experience. Personal insights, archetypal understanding and
learning can be discussed. Sharing our experience will multiply
our learning.  Privacy considerations will restated and
discussed.  We can make evaluations and suggest ideas for more
events.



*   Timing

As facilitator, I will structure the phases according to the
group's life and the completion of each phase and not according
to chronological time.  Bearing in mind that times are a rough
guide, three months is offered for the three phases. The times
to guide the phases is 3, 6 and 3 weeks, respectively.

It is important that there is no rush and also that we do not
have unhelpful pauses. Some periods of silence may well be part
of the natural flow of the group.

The event will span the Christmas and New Year period, which is
a holiday and family time. In the southern hemisphere it will
involve the summer holidays and participation can ebb and flow
accordingly. Ample allowance will be made for these events.

I will be unavailable to the group while camping (and dreaming!)
in the hills for one week during early January.

Exactly when the group will conclude is unknown but it *will*
start on 10 December 1999.



*   The Process

The event is both tightly structured and very fluid.

We start on a given date and conduct the phases of the group as
planned.  We shall make the ten moves on the game board, taking
advantage of the heightened impact that the structure of the
HipBone game and the Waterbird board itself imposes.  We have a
time for closure.  These are the structures which will focus our
enthusiasm.

Within these structures, the group and the game will develop
their own rhythms and the *virtual music of our dreams* will
play itself to a close.



*   Graphics and the Dreamevent Document




In addition to the plain ASCII of the main discussion list we can
post photos, scanned drawings or paintings and other multimedia
files to the Web, there is a storage place provided in the eGroup
software we use. Images associated with our dreams enrich our
experience.  The Dreamevent Document will record the moves,
dreams, links and have an aesthetically pleasing representation
of the Waterbird Board, and other graphics.



*   Privacy Guidelines


The group parameters are that people can subscribe until we start
on 10 December then the group will be closed and all of us will
be honour bound to keep the words of others confidential. Your
words remain your property. Please do not use other people's
posts outside the list without their permission.

Participants are to use their real name in this group.  The
eGroup software is to be set to make your name visible in each
post.

The archives will remain on the web, accessible to members for
one year after closure, no more posts can be added. The URL of
the Dreamevent Document will be confidential to members and not
hyperlinked to from other documents.

I will remind the group of these privacy rules from time to time
and invite discussion of details.

As mentioned above, Charles Cameron will be my mentor for this
group, while he is not a member of the group, I may share some of
the process of the group and HipBone game with him. My agreement
with him includes confidentiality of the discussion he and I
have.

Beyond honouring this plan, and enforcing it to the best of
my ability, no guarantees of confidentiality can be promised.



*   Participation Guidelines


Personal attacks and threats will not be tolerated, and all
members are expected to maintain a high standard of respect
for authentic dialogue and etiquette.

Please only join if you intend to participate in all phases of
the group and if you think you can post at the very least *on
average* once per week.  Holiday absences, if mentioned to the
group, will be taken into account.

Private emails are not to be quoted in the group without
permission from the writer.

Quoting: Please keep quoting from earlier emails (using the >
sign) to a minimum. Quote enough to put your response in context.
Please do not use more than two generations of quoting (>>).

Threading:  Use the subject line to make it possible to have
several conversational threads at once.

The preferred format for writing and reading the text in the
posts is a fixed pitch font such as Courier New, no more than 76
characters per line. Please do not send attachments, multimedia
or HTML files to the list. Images and HTML documents can be
posted to a confidential place associated with the group.

Upon joining you will receive more information in the Welcome
message.



*   How to Join



Send a blank email to:
dreamevent-subscribe@eGroups.com

Please reply to the email you will then be sent asking you to
verify that you made the request.

Please send a short email to me walter@psybernet.co.nz to
indicate your interest in this Dreamevent and that you have
read and understood this Invitation, Description and Guidelines
document.



*   Links



Walter Logeman
http://psybernet.co.nz/walter.htm

Psybernet
http://www.psybernet.co.nz

HipBone Games and Charles Cameron
http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/

Psyber-L Mailing List, Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace.
http://www.psybernet.co.nz/psyber-l.htm

This Invitation, Description and Guideline doc on the Web:
http://www.psybernet.co.nz/dreamevent99.htm

The Waterbird Board
http://www.psybernet.co.nz/waterbird.htm





Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz

~~~

* Version 1.00

27 November 1999

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:40:12 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: == Psybernet Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000 ==
In-Reply-To:  <hqqu3s8j5hc0tcab75prf1ucnh7237cn98@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

> Psybernet Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000

I have posted the proposed dreamevent invite.  I managed to post
it up last night just before we went off to friends to watch the
election results come in.  NZ has a change of government, and
everyone I know is quite pleased by that!

I am looking forward to the Dream event. I have put a bit of work
in to the document and also into testing out the software and so
on.  I am pleased with how it all looks.

I have a short invite I will post here, and in other places soon,
but I wanted to be sure that people here in Psyber-l could join
first.  I've put the 16 place limit on the group to ensure it
does not overwhelm us with emails.  I will soon send it to the
other dreamevent participants.

All for now,


Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206
Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:26:18 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: == Psybernet Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000 ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E6_01BF3A5C.8DF7C210"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00E6_01BF3A5C.8DF7C210
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


How exciting !

I just sent off my thingy to join up.. Can't wait.

Well I am sitting here about to catch a plane back
to Wellington (NZ) from Christchurch ( NZ) where
I have been this last, exciting, election week.

I want to, sort of apologise, for having left the
my response dangling in the 'dreaming on' thread. I really
wanted to reply, but put it off to do 'properly' (always a killer
for me)

 ( uhh.. see attached windoze 'shortcuts' or maybe follow the following
link:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9911&L=psyber-l&F=&S=&X=6CA7
D90A94F6777BB5&P=1204
)


I was/am wanting to get my photo's developed
so I could scan one in, and reply to Cheryls post with
a photo, but.. hmmm..

Anyway good to see your introduction Walter !!
Cool shit. I'll write more soon, once I get
home to my own computer (and my own bed mmm...)

Hope you are all doing well..




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URL=3Dhttp://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=3Dind9911&L=3Dpsyber-l=
&F=3D&S=3D&X=3D6CA7D90A94F6777BB5&P=3D1204
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er-l&F=3D&S=3D&X=3D6CA7D90A94F6777BB5&Y=3Dmiles@mail.com&P=3D1298
[InternetShortcut]
URL=3Dhttp://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=3Dind9911&L=3Dpsyber-l=
&F=3D&S=3D&X=3D6CA7D90A94F6777BB5&Y=3Dmiles@mail.com&P=3D1298
Modified=3D80C36201EF39BF018E

------=_NextPart_000_00E6_01BF3A5C.8DF7C210--

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:48:25 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: == Psybernet Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000 ==
In-Reply-To:  <00e901bf39ef$9792a3c0$36b71bca@chris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Miles, All,


> How exciting !
>
> I just sent off my thingy to join up.. Can't wait.

All fixed. You should have got a welcome message.

I'm excited by it all too.

~~~

I will post up a shorter invitation post.  Please send that to
friends or groups or other places where you think it will be
appreciated.

~~~

And ... I think it is ok, a good thing,  if we continue the
warm-up here to the event, dreams, discussion...

Regards,


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:50:21 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      The season...
In-Reply-To:  <00e901bf39ef$9792a3c0$36b71bca@chris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Miles
  Re: == Psybernet Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000 ==
  Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:26:18 +1300

> Well I am sitting here about to catch a plane back
> to Wellington (NZ) from Christchurch ( NZ) where
> I have been this last, exciting, election week.

Miles, you were in Christchurch! When will you be back?  Josh
will be here for Christmas & New Year.  Kate & I will be up at
Mt. Lyford most of the time.  Call in!


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:54:27 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: == Psybernet Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000 ==
In-Reply-To:  <tbt34s8mmqsn2ae59vbnpmgtgsk6ormvqi@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

== Psybernet Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000 ==

Invitation

The Online Dreamevent 1999 ~ 2000 is a group to explore dream
life, to learn about the psyche, and to share struggles and
celebrate joys.  The event will span the New Year period. This
millennial time is an opportunity for archetypal experiences and
dreams. This Dreamevent can focus our awareness and be a forum to
share how the transition impacts on our lives and on our psyche.
The group starts on 10 December 1999 and continues for
approximately 3 months.

I am Walter Logeman, a psychotherapist in Christchurch,
New Zealand and the founder of Psybernet, a project for
psychologically oriented work online. Psybernet has been running
online groups since 1993 and hosted a successful Dreamevent in
1996. I was impressed how the Net made it possible for us to work
collaboratively with our dreams and reveal psychological depths
in a new way. Psybernet is hosting this event, and I will be
facilitating the group.

As the Dreamevent unfolds the interconnections will be brought
into focus using the HipBone Game designed by Charles Cameron.
Using this approach to dreams was pioneered in the 1996 event
which Charles and I co-facilitated.  The process is called a
'game' as it is inspired by the profound Glass Bead Game, which
is central in the novel with that title by Hermann Hesse. Charles
has generously given me the full use of his copyrighted material
for this group. Read more about the game on the HipBone web site.
For links to the site and other background information see the
Links section below.

The discussions will be in a mailing list using plain text and
here will also be a place to post graphics or other multimedia
files. A hypertext "Dreamevent Document" will be created as part
of the group's work.

I am pleased to invite you to join this group.


~~~


*   How to Join


Please go to the full Invitation, Description and Guidelines
document, available on the Web, all the information you need is
there:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/dreamevent99.htm



*   Links



Walter Logeman
http://psybernet.co.nz/walter.htm

Psybernet
http://www.psybernet.co.nz

HipBone Games and Charles Cameron
http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/

Psyber-L Mailing List, Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace.
http://www.psybernet.co.nz/psyber-l.htm

The Invitation, Description and Guideline doc on the Web:
http://www.psybernet.co.nz/dreamevent99.htm

The Waterbird Board
http://www.psybernet.co.nz/waterbird.htm





Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz

~~~



* Version 1.00  de99invitation.txt  29 November 1999

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html




