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Date:         Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:44:29 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: old souls
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Stephen, Walter, Judith, all,

Stephen, your pose some interesting questions and I will try speaking to them.

>What is soul?

In my version of understanding I sense soul as being something that is from
a place other than the ego, the heights of spirit.  Soul is a place of
water, soil, nature, relation, humus, blood, damp, dark, pulling at the
solar plexus, pulling one down to earth, it is that which is communion,
union, a fullness, a heaviness ....... and this is just an approach to soul.

>What do I mean if I should say I am experiencing soul?

For me the experience of soul is a descent from the flights within my head,
the soaring lightly to light.  Experiencing soul is getting down to the
dirt, hands on the soil in awe of its power of feeding, stone broken;
making love and getting lost in the experience, the warmth and the
moistness; wandering through a field or forest and listening to a brook
rippling; singing into the night honouring the depth of sadness, reading or
writing so as to exert a pull on the organ called heart, but yet not really
that mechanical blood-pumping organ, a deeper organ; holding the hand of
another and trusting to the contact without thought, without reasoning and
understanding ....

>What do I mean if I should say I am doing something soulfully?

Engagement ... being in/with other be it a *thou* or one of the many faces
of the earth.  Caressing the strings of a guitar with an attitude that is
not concerned so much with the skill as with the dialogue; daring to expose
self without a mask, without the protection of persona ...

>What kinds of distinctions am I drawing when I qualify experiences as
>having more or less soulfulness?

For me that would be a distinction between a distancing versus engagement,
distancing through words focused on logic, ego, heirarchy, in place of
words that seek to find a mate, a kindred spirit, a listener who would
embrace and respond and resonate with the words ...

>Is soul a location in the psyche?

It is the psyche.

>Is soul a quality of some other aspect of our being?

It is the fullness and not the part of our being, it is a fullness that
somehow goes passed the *self* to touch and include the whole of all and
everything.

>Do I relate to soul as a concept or as something beyond the conceptual?

Beyond conceptual.  Concepts float within and find a home within soul but
do not define soul.  In searching for *soul* one is bound to never find it
as it is behind the eyes that do the searching as well as being that which
is seen, unseparated yet apparently divorced in our concepts of what is and
what isn't ....

>Is soul connected with other stuff; does it have to do at all with how one
>relates oneself to their life and the world?

I have already answered this ... related, engaged, full, connected,
eco-system, webbed ... appears to be many parts looking to connect while
never divorced ...

>One general kind of view I do not at all resonate to is the one which
>promotes the idea that soul is simply whatever is and thus, conclusively,
>everything that happens is soul or soul-full (and anybody who feels
>differently). . .

I don't fully understand here, Stephen ... if I do understand then I find
that we are not on a similar wave-length of understanding thus can not
communicate.  Communication only is possible with an agreement on the
meaning of words and concepts and a shared experience of life with which to
frame those words .... I am confused (and that is okay and good)

>So, what does a lack of soul seem to be about or feel like?

An emptiness, a weightlessness, isolation, an inability to relate, to
engage ... distance ... cold, dry peaks, lost in a head space, lack of
sense of identity, lack of commitment and purpose and meaning ....

returning regards for the engagement,

Robert

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Date:         Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:52:17 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: e=mc2
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Walter

>I like what you say here.  I find it enabling... whatever we do
>is (or not) is, or can be an engagement.

Yes, but be aware of that word "can be" not *is*.

>> Even in honouring,
>> soulfully honouring PSYBER-L the place can be damaged.
>
>that throws me!  In a sort of Judo-ish sort of way... I used to
>do Judo and loved being thrown in friendly throw for throw
>sessions and then breakfalling.
>
>I have a sense that you are saying *damage* is part of the soul.
>Shadow can be here... if there is damage then it to *is*.

Yes, death is a final descent, an act of soul returning to its source.
Breaking, breaking down, transmuting, transforming ... all involve damage
... but the damge may lead to gold, to purity, to reformation ... rebirth ...

>I recall something from Jung where he assures therapists that
>they really need not worry too much about getting it wrong... the
>psyche is resilient, and self healing...

The work is done by the patient, the analysand.  The analyst is simply a
container for engagement, a meeting place for both the shadows and light of
the analysand so that a dialogue may be safely engaged ... transference ---
countertransference ... and in the engagement, in that time of temenos
comes self-healing ... less what the therapist does and more of who the
therapist is ... in just being ...

>I hope you are doing well in your ever changing world Robert!

I hope so too, Walter.  Someday I will stand back and see how it is going.

Robert

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Date:         Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:50:26 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: e=mc2
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Robert

> >I like what you say here.  I find it enabling... whatever we do
> >is (or not), or can be an engagement.
>
> Yes, but be aware of that word "can be" not *is*.

and a little later you say:

> Yes, death is a final descent, an act of soul returning to its source.
> Breaking, breaking down, transmuting, transforming ... all involve damage
> ... but the damge may lead to gold, to purity, to reformation ... rebirth ...

I am noting the word "may" here.

Do you have some inkling of how it can all be missed? What would
a disaster actually look like.  It would seem that there could be
soul in a disaster as well.

My take on it now is that it can be missed... it is not what is
happening but what we do with it... no, how we are with it...

It would be possible to miss the damage, to miss the death... now
that would be a death beyond the death.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Fri, 1 Oct 1999 21:22:05 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: old souls
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19990930221154.009491d0@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
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Robert,

Beautiful post... all of it, & here is just one paragraph I want
to highlight:


> For me the experience of soul is a descent from the flights within my head,
> the soaring lightly to light.  Experiencing soul is getting down to the
> dirt, hands on the soil in awe of its power of feeding, stone broken;
> making love and getting lost in the experience, the warmth and the
> moistness; wandering through a field or forest and listening to a brook
> rippling; singing into the night honouring the depth of sadness, reading or
> writing so as to exert a pull on the organ called heart, but yet not really
> that mechanical blood-pumping organ, a deeper organ; holding the hand of
> another and trusting to the contact without thought, without reasoning and
> understanding ....


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Fri, 1 Oct 1999 21:40:45 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: old souls
In-Reply-To:  <v04210100b4192639f4e5@[207.54.181.93]>
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Stephen,

> it would be very interesting and revealing for all who wish to, to express
> just what their own 'take' on *soul* is.

I like your question and also the response from Robert...

On my Psybernet web pages... years ago, aiming to create a tone
for what ever I was creating(?), I wrote a few phrases that I
still like :

|  Patiently in the present

|  Mindful... aware, seeing into the patterns of life,
|  valuing experience, with loveing attention...

|  It is a way of seeing. A way of seeing
|  with the imagination, the eternal patterns in the
|  ordinary.

After the warm-up here of late I would add:

Engagement, dialogue, I-Thou relationships and earthy communions
and unions.

~~~

I am mindful of Judith's question in Re: e=mc2  Wed, 29 Sep 1999
17:14:28 -0400:

> Does one talk *about* soulful depth?

I am finding our conversation here, with its aspects of talking
*about* soul... engaging... not because they are about soul so
much, but because they are about us and our group and because I
have a sense of us *doing* what we are talking about as we do it!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:49:57 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      words, concepts, mutuality
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19990930221154.009491d0@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Robert, all,

First, thank you Robert for considering my questions. I felt your response
was profound. I'll continue to consider it and consider a response in kind.

***

I had written,  "One general kind of view I do not at all resonate to is
the one which promotes the idea that soul is simply whatever is and thus,
conclusively, everything that happens is soul or soul-full"

You'll need to highlight what was unclear so that I may assist. Then you
wrote:

> Communication only is possible with an agreement on the
>meaning of words and concepts and a shared experience of life with which to
>frame those words

This is not congruent with my experience at all. I have been faced with
severe language and conceptual barriers, and, also, have been engaged by
persons who shared not a whit of my kind of experience. We were able to
communicate.

That we can communicate at all, even within a single language, is somewhat
incredible given that there is often not a great deal of agreement about
what words mean, especially as they are extended via metaphor, (etc.). As
we reveal our individual meanings of *soul* this phenomena will be
exemplified. Yet, we can bring our differences together and make them
richly interpenetrate, and so communicate far short of presumptive
agreements about meanings and concepts and shared experiences. Well,
Robert: imo! ;-)

(I would go farther and suggest that sometimes semantic and conceptual
agreements, and shared experience at times inhibit communication because
(enriching) 'differentials' are eliminated. In specific instances *group
think* is obtained and when the underlying symbolic agreement is made
numinous and total, would we not be then talking about the
participation-mystique?)

***

regards,

Stephen

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Date:         Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:04:07 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
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> >Judith Buerkel wrote:
> >>
> >

> Well, I wasn't into the Jung descriptors of male and female in terms of
> feeling but in a construct used by one of the feminist psychologists whose
> name escapes me where she postulates the male psychological construct as
> one of seeking separation, dipping into relationship, and the female one of
> seeking to stay in continuous relationship...I don't have the data at hand
> anymore but it had to do with the need for the son to separate from the
> mother while the daughter does not have the same need...I seem to recall
> (tho my recall is suspect since my illness) that the psychologist whose
> last name starts with a C and I think first name Nancy...anyway I ran into
> her work during my adult learning study

N: Don't think I've hear of this psychologist..  Aside from Jung, I
associate the
'theory' as you state it with the anthropologist who speak of specialial
rites for
the boys.  I have always thought these were due to bond 'too close for
mother and son'.  Too close for whom?  Foor the elder men  in those
tribes, which were usually
small and oftened in a confined space (such as an island).  My own
experience is that I am somewhat closer to my sons than my daughters.
This is also true of my best brst frinds.

  Back to the Myers Briggs, Introverted Feeling type are less inclined
toward 'closeness'.  They tend to 'keep their feeling' for themselves.
Something similar (though not the same) might be said of Extravert.

  It seems to me the one expressing oneself 'soulfully' is a 'how'.  It
is easier for me to image doing the on some suggests than other.   One
of my two Jungian 'dictiionaries' refers from 'loss of soul' to
depression.   This makes some sense in
term of Anima and Amimus relationship to animation.

  I would suppose there might be 'whats' that it  would very hard to
discuss 'soulfully'.   (This is probably somewhat individual)

  I amm interested in the 'wheres' though I find the 'place' very hard
to imagine.

  (Judith, glad  to hear yoo Are actually healing.  You may  look back
on the years as the most 'soulful' [though not necessarily the
pleasantest] of your life.

  Best  to all,   Nancy

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Date:         Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:52:54 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject:      Fw: [P] old souls
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i dont see paradox myself because i have what keats, f.scot fitzgerald and
lionel trilling supposedly call negative capability.

if the soul is infinite then it must contain a place where it is non
existant.
makes absolute sense/nonsense to me.

that is the absolute truth, that both continuums exist simultaneously tho
they are diametrically opposed. the infinite stands before us *in spite* of
itself.

the coincidences prove that the universe is a living thing.
sorry i dont have Time right now to really say what soul is;) nor could i
if i did have Time;) everytime we try to describe the infinite in a finite
space we spin off of it's true essence. all i can do is thro out a paradox
that points with an invisible finger to the higher realms beyond duaLITY.
study Surat Shabd Yoga to get on the lifelines
c u l8r and luv2u all


>

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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"><br>i dont see paradox myself because i =
have what keats, f.scot fitzgerald and lionel trilling supposedly call =
negative capability. <br><br>if the soul is infinite then it must =
contain a place where it is non existant.<br>makes absolute =
sense/nonsense to me. <br><br>that is the absolute truth, that both =
continuums exist simultaneously tho they are diametrically opposed. the =
infinite stands before us *in spite* of itself.<br><br>the coincidences =
prove that the universe is a living thing. <br>sorry i dont have Time =
right now to really say what soul is;) nor could i if i did have Time;) =
everytime we try to describe the infinite in a finite space we spin off =
of it's true essence. all i can do is thro out a paradox that points =
with an invisible finger to the higher realms beyond duaLITY.<br>study =
Surat Shabd Yoga to get on the lifelines<br>c u l8r and luv2u =
all<br><br><br>&gt; <br><font size=3D2><br></p>
</font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BF0C35.C9BD7560--

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Date:         Sat, 2 Oct 1999 12:54:43 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: words, concepts, mutuality
In-Reply-To:  <v04210100b41a9fd4ef93@[207.54.160.15]>
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Stephen, all

> That we can communicate at all, even within a single language, is somewhat
> incredible given that there is often not a great deal of agreement about
> what words mean, especially as they are extended via metaphor, (etc.).

With these thoughts on my mind, while up in the hills yesterday,
one of the children said, looking at the view out to the Pacific
Ocean, "What is the dictionary definition of 'horizon'?  The
adults had a go and we came up with "as far as you can see" --
that was no good -- "where the sea meets the sky".  So is that
the horizon up there, he said pointing to the mountain behind us
and the clear blue sky above?  Not really, that is the sky-line.

One of those situations where we all knew what the horizon was,
but lacked a definition.

I enjoyed the moment... I am not trying to making any new points
here or anything.


Walter

I have looked it up now:
http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=horizon





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Oct 1999 22:17:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fw: [P] old souls
In-Reply-To:  <199910012150.RAA19622@smtp.leading.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Wayne writes, "that is the absolute truth, that both continuums exist
>simultaneously tho they are diametrically opposed. the infinite stands
>before us *in spite* of itself." and, "everytime we try to describe the
>infinite in a finite space we spin off of it's true essence. all i can do
>is thro out a paradox that points with an invisible finger to the higher
>realms beyond duaLITY."

Okay; thanks.  Didn't seem to be a paradox you threw out so mebbe I have
that negative capability too. Dunno.

peace.Stephen

Our method is a method of alchemy. It is a question of drawing out the
subtle organism of light, for over it is the mountain under which man is
prisoner.
        Shayk Najm al-Din Kubra ::ra

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Date:         Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:12:14 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      e=mc2
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hello Psyber-folk,
Tonight is the first night in many many moons that I have been
able to be at home and be online. I've been wading through the
psyber-l posts trying to get a sense of the conversation. I am
still computer-less at home and am working tonight on a laptop
that I brought home from work. This at least gives me the opportunity
to sit at my kitchen table and ponder the posts in a way that
I simply can't do from work. Energy. Engagement. Soulfullness.
Old souls. Personal vs professional. Participation. Silence and
presence in silence. Damage. Dreams. Paradox. LIGHTENING!

I miss being able to engage in the way I used to - pre-lightening
strike ('PLS') - (like Judith's 'BMI'). One of things that's
interesting to me was the depth of my relating just prior the
lightening strike putting me out of commission. I had taken some
(big - to me) risks just before that and was even on the verge
of more personal revelation when all hell broke loose on this
end. Now, if this were a real 'therapy group' that would undoubtably
be a quite interesting 'process observation'. I don't really
know what to make of it - or even if anything is to be made of
it. If I remember correctly, the last thing I posted was something
about wanting to 'sit closer to my heart's desire' in reply to
a post from Stephen. Well, the next day (I think) lightening
hit the ground and at the same time I was falling in love. August
and Sept have been personally tumultuous - in love, then horrid
mis-communication (lightening!),then barely being able to speak
to beloved, things much better now but the 'in love' spell is
over. I have no idea if any of this makes any sense to anyone
who hasn't lived through the last couple of months with me. Plus
a friend's suicide and my best friend's wedding - both on the
same day. Whew! Guess I'm just trying to say hello again and
that I miss playing with you all at the level I was playing before
- well, you know, the L-word. I'm hoping that with the new laptop
and being able to bring it home, I'll be able to ponder and muse
and participate again in a way that's satisfying to me and perhaps
useful to the group as a whole.

All for now,
Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:06:24 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: e=mc2
In-Reply-To:  <061099279.72734@204.245.234.76>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Cheryl

I am moved and delighted (to pick up on something L-wordish) to
see your post.  Hearing your story is quite something...
especially to catch up on what was a dream a while back and
through some of your courage no doubt, has become reality.

THe e=mc2 as a result of Stephen mentioning the words 'critical
mass' - and I thought there might be more than mass needed in the
equation (of course Stephen also said that with references to
commitment etc.)  I really have a sense of your commitment... to
Psyber-L... yes, and more, to your self, life, being, people!

Hello and welcome back.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:31:23 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
In-Reply-To:  <37EFD831.BD71B7C@negia.net>
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Nancy,

A while back, Mon, 27 Sep 1999 you responded to what i had
written:

> > My personal journey - psyche - is not something i have moved away
> > from - and I bring aspects here.  Our dream discussions I found
> > useful.  My posts about "Structure and soul" continue that
> > journey... the discussions were marvelous for me.  I do have a
> > hesitancy about posting personal stuff... that somehow the list
> > becomes too much my therapy list...

> N: Huh?  In my (rather too extensive) experience, it seems  to me that
> if it is not involving and/or  a 'therapy list' for you, then it is not
> likely to be therapy (or involving) for anyone.

Psyber-L is utterly involving for me, I live it all the time.
Whether I post or not it is one of my "significant others".  I
agree with you that if I were to loose commitment, interest,
involvement this place would die, unless of course someone else
took on the job.

My comment about therapy above about my inner voices... my
hesitancy doubts and fears, uncensored.  Upon reflection there is
a some neurosis in there isn't there.  My fear that if I go on
about my 'personal' stuff too much that it would be bad for the
group as a whole.  I certainly know how not to burden my
psychotherapy clients with my own burdens.  I may have let that
carry over too here too much.  No one has yet said that I go on
too much about my therapy...

It is complex though... Psyber-L is not a 'therapy list', what
ever they are. It is therapeutic.  The phrase 'exploring psyche
in cyberspace' does not restrict therapy at all, it simply means
we can go much broader...

Having done all this talk 'about' life in Psyber-L ... is useful
for me and I feel more ready to at least send an update on where
i am at with my journey... if you recall last time I really spoke
about it i was hanging on a ladder fire escape with nowhere to
go.

More soon.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Oct 1999 15:09:13 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      The Association for Transpersonal Psychology - Cultivating
              Connections conference
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hi,

This conference starts next week, online. I am one of the people
leading a forum discussion -- Cyberspace and Psyche.  So far it
looks as if it will be good.  It is well organised, and the
Caucus software is a wonderful environment for this sort of
thing.  The fee is $US150 to join.

The press release follows... feel free to forward it on.


Walter

~~~


The Brave New World of Cyber Conferences

Groups around the world are now experimenting with new ways to
meet, share ideas, and network.
Many of these conferences are held privately by corporations and
institutions. However, a fascinating event worth visiting will be
open to the public online this fall from October 17-November 7 on
the World Wide Web at http://event.tmn.com/events/atp/

Sponsored by The Association for Transpersonal Psychology and
Caucus Systems this one-of-a-kind event Global Cyber Conference
will include transpersonal theorists Ken Wilber,
Charles Tart, and Frances Vaughan, along with Jeanne Achterberg,
Angeles Arrien, James, Fadiman, Christian de la Huerta, Dwight
Judy and Carol Pearson. Leaders from the international
transpersonal movement will also be represented.

The Cultivating Connections conference will have many of the
familiar features of a face-to-face conference including
interactive sessions, dialogue with leaders in the field, weekly
forums, guest authors, a bookstore, exhibit hall,and an
audio/visual gallery.  This incredible conferencing format allows
attendees to join together to learn, share, and vision from
around the globe.

To learn more about this event, including a program
schedule, full list of presenters and exhibitor/sponsor
opportunities, please visit the Conference Center at:
http://event.tmn.com/events/atp/
You can also *Register Now* on the site.
Continuing Education Units are also available at a very
reasonable rate.

Registration for "Cultivating Connections" will be $100 US
for ATP members and $150 US for Non-members. Non-ATP members
are encouraged to join ATP to receive the member conference
rate. Go to the ATP website at http://www.igc.org/atp/ to
join, or call (650) 327-0437. Exhibitor and Sponsor space is also
available at atp99@caucus.com

This conference is an opportunity to attend the first
CyberConference held in the field of Transpersonal Psychology, as
well as chance to experience the new world of cyber conferencing
yourself.

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Oct 1999 17:49:06 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Collective free-association
Comments: To: ilikethis@egroups.com
In-Reply-To:  <=Nb9N34ShKcqxx3qFshLOEQDgfEP@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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All,

I have been chatting with some people who have developed a
method for improving search engines.  They have lots of data
from millions of anonymous users on what people type into a
search engine and how they associate that with what is actually
clicked on.  The data also reveals what words were used to go
to particular sites. In other words a particular site may be
associated with Clinton as well as cigar.  This is quite a view
into the collective, it is a form of collective free-association.
It could be a thesis for someone!

The free association idea is not the only Freudian aspect of
the data... there are a lot of sexual words! The other glimmer
of info was that men and women are very different.

That this sort of data exists suggests to me, again, that there
is qualitative shift in psyche.  I have been thinking of the
notion:  The flesh is made word.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Oct 1999 18:09:22 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Collective free-association
In-Reply-To:  <LxcAOAPIbtdwj64p+JEbHv5F6qF4@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

> That this sort of data exists suggests to me, again, that there
> is qualitative shift in psyche.  I have been thinking of the
> notion:  The flesh is made word.

I have had another experience that may fit under this heading.

Deja.com http://www.deja.com work away on the web to make Usenet
more workable, and I think they succeed.  One service they
provide is called Tracker.  You can set it up to get an email
when it finds Usenet posts with certain keywords.

I tracked Freud Jung and Hillman for years, but quit a while back
as the results became predictable, boring and time consuming.
Freud it seems is mentioned 99% of the time in association with
being 'unscientific'.  I just did a search on all three keywords
together and it worked beautifully. It gave me one post, on who
else... Joseph Campbell, and one I found worth reading!

Does this link work:

http://x22.deja.com/[ST_rn=md]/getdoc.xp?AN=528947278&CONTEXT=939531326.361234508&hitnum=2

My experience here is not just that i am getting information.
Nor that it is 'knowledge'.  More importantly it gibes me a link
to heaps of people including the author and alt.mythology. It
goes one step further for me... I am in awe.  Of what?  The
memosphere, the noosphere? I'm happy to call it psyche.


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:22:46 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Walter, Nancy, all...

In a message dated 99-10-08 07:27:20 EDT, Walter writes:

> It is complex though... Psyber-L is not a 'therapy list', what
>  ever they are. It is therapeutic.  The phrase 'exploring psyche
>  in cyberspace' does not restrict therapy at all, it simply means
>  we can go much broader...

>  Having done all this talk 'about' life in Psyber-L ... is useful
>  for me and I feel more ready to at least send an update on where
>  i am at with my journey... if you recall last time I really spoke
>  about it i was hanging on a ladder fire escape with nowhere to
>  go.

I wonder if the sense of exploration of the psyche via Psyber-L which seems
lately to lack depth reflects something more in the evolution of the Internet
in general?  Has the Internet's tremendous growth commercially in the past
couple of years moved cmc in general to a superficial level, especially for
those of us who have experienced (and probably desired) more depth
communication?

Commercials constantly pop up on my screen when I connect to the Internet.
Every advertiser on television, radio, newspaper, bus, ad nauseum lists a web
site (do people actually write these sites down and visit them?)

I can't remember the last time I actually began corresponding with someone
*new* online.  Friends I had Before Internet who now have Internet access
also seemed to have evolved into *something else* that seems more shallow
now.

Yet, of all the *places* I have visited on the net, Psyber-L at least retains
or remains the one with the most potential for depth...  a place that at
least someone may interact with me rather than talking at me.

Is anyone else as tired of being talked at as I am?

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Oct 1999 22:12:15 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
In-Reply-To:  <0.617278e6.253368d6@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl

> I wonder if the sense of exploration of the psyche via Psyber-L which seems
> lately to lack depth reflects something more in the evolution of the Internet
> in general?  Has the Internet's tremendous growth commercially in the past
> couple of years moved cmc in general to a superficial level, especially for
> those of us who have experienced (and probably desired) more depth
> communication?

The thing i am aware of here is that once, in the Internet
pleistocene when i mentioned Psyber-L anywhere, there would be
new subs to the list.  Now there are sites for every variety of
psychology and self help.  We are in a narrow niche. Perhaps we
always have been but we attracted people who have now found
places of more relevance to them.  Or are they just distracted by
the neon? Or is it a bit of both.  I hope it is the latter, which
would mean that when things settle down a little we amy expect
some new life.

Of course they wont settle down... I read in news scan (one of
the better distractions:

 "NewsScan" <newsscan@newsscan.com>
  NewsScan Daily,  11 October 1999 ("Above The Fold")
  Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:59:38 -0700

|  THE WHOLE WORLD IN YOUR HANDHELD
|  Information industry leaders at the United Nations-sponsored Telecom 99
|  conference in Geneva are predicting that there will be a worldwide
|  proliferation of handheld computing devices bringing Internet access to the
|  people of China and other developing countries. And Nortel Networks chief
|  executive John Roth expects "an explosion of bandwidth in Western Europe --
|  with Internet users rising from 38 million today to 150 million by 2005."
|  (AP/San Jose Mercury News 11 Oct 99)
|  http://www.sjmercury.com/svtech/news/breaking/merc/docs/077165.htm

> Commercials constantly pop up on my screen when I connect to the Internet.

Sheryl, I find all that appalling and continue to pay for this
list, rather than use free ad supported ones.  Also I downloaded
InterMute which removes all ads from the web and speeds up
performance.  After tying it for a month I paid out!  I could not
stand watching it all come back.

> I can't remember the last time I actually began corresponding with someone
> *new* online.

I have just started in the Transpersonal Psych Conference... an
interesting place to be asked to present.  I am sure I could not
afford to pay to be there, so I feel quite lucky... something
like that is more or less new on the net, and goes beyond the
crasser developments.  I'm meeting new people there and enjoying
that (it is still closed and we are behind the scenes as it
were.)

> Friends I had Before Internet who now have Internet access
> also seemed to have evolved into *something else* that seems more shallow
> now.

I am finding it a little tedious as such friends send jokes and
such which circulate around with lots of >>>>>>> all through
them.  For all that the net is impacting on my most technophobic
friends, especially ones with friends and family overseas...
there is something new afoot.  Digital pictures are on the rise
which I am noticing with interest.

> Yet, of all the *places* I have visited on the net, Psyber-L at least retains
> or remains the one with the most potential for depth...  a place that at
> least someone may interact with me rather than talking at me.

Potential... a bit of a sad word, but good to have it for all
that.

> Is anyone else as tired of being talked at as I am?

I have been working against that tide and I get too much spam.  I
am getting better at avoiding it though... lots of folders and
lots of filters for my email.  I also find myself unsubbing from
things i have never subbed to!

Good to hear you here.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:27:16 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Evan Morris <evan@EXCLUSIVEBOOKS.CO.ZA>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Hi again

I have been on this list for perhaps two months now, lurking and so forth,
and I have to confess I am still not certain what the underlying motive of
the list is. That must sound dreadful, but there it is. I signed up for the
list on a whim, having scanned a brief description of it on a list-server's
index. I am quite interested in cognitive science, and thought this might be
the place - or a place - to further that interest. Without trying to sound
rude, could somebody please give me an idea of what sort of things get
discussed here? Since signing, I have pretty much only seen discussions
about the state of the list itself. Could someone please clarify?

I do not mean any of this to sound offensive or obnoxious to anybody.

Thank you


Evan Morris
evan@exclusivebooks.co.za
+ 27 11 792 2777 (tel)
+ 27 11 792 2711 (fax)

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Oct 1999 00:40:55 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
In-Reply-To:  <014E5138E613D111BFAA00805F06B07724FD66@server.exclusivebooks.co.za>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Evan,

> I have been on this list for perhaps two months now, lurking and so forth,
> and I have to confess I am still not certain what the underlying motive of
> the list is. That must sound dreadful, but there it is. I signed up for the
> list on a whim, having scanned a brief description of it on a list-server's
> index.

Did you get the post where I put in the URLs for the description
of the list and the Welcome message?  I won't repeat them here,
but will send the full text to the list, it has not been done for
a while.

That said, I can understand your uncertainty, and it does not
sound dreadful at all!  I imagine even the docs i am about to
post may not do the trick.

I know from your intro you are interested in writing, Jean
Baudrillard, work with books etc. I think the underlying notion
here, of psyche, may be what is puzzling.  We have had some
discussion of it recently, Stephen invited us to muse on the word
soul, and Robert did so quite fully... what did you make of those
posts?

I do not have a cognitive understanding of the word psyche.  As
one central to this lists life that may sound puzzling, but to me
it is one of those things that ...

is uncertain
messy
shifts
can be experienced but not defined

I am now thinking of a couple of matters that lie not fully
addressed here in the forum from a post by Stephen, which may
challenge what i say... I will sum them up from memory, as i
don't have the original here right now:

    The soul is not 'all there is' or 'everything'...
    there is something specific and nameable that
    makes for soulfulness.  While we all may speak
    different languages and have different experiences
    we *can* get through to each other and come to some
    mutual understanding even of these elusive experiences.

~~~

That was a bit of a digression...

As a therapist and someone who has indulged in *experiential*
groups it makes sense to me that we are exploring 'psyche' by...
what you call "discussions about the state of the list itself".
It is not that this is the only possible topic, but it is a place
where psyche happens or does not, and we are in cyberspace... so
you see we are thoroughly immersed in the subject matter of our
learning.

I have a sense of the psyche being an autonomous and revealed
through aspects of our functioning which we have no direct
control, our "automatisms" as I have heard them called; dreams,
forgotten and recovered experience, slips of the tongue, word
associations etc.

Here in this cool medium of text we have ample opportunity to
"see into" a void.  What we see here is more to do with 'psyche'
than with us or any more measurable 'state of the list itself'.
For some of us the list seems quiet, for others it is noisy, and
so on.  If we bring a little imagination to it, we might be
cruising, floating, sinking, swimming, treading water, drowning.
Or up in the air!

Getting a grasp of that experiential exploration might not come
easily to some.  Nor is it the only way to go here!

> I am quite interested in cognitive science, and thought this might be
> the place - or a place - to further that interest. Without trying to sound
> rude, could somebody please give me an idea of what sort of things get
> discussed here?

I think cognitive science is related to our explorations here...
I discovered the word autopoesis, and I was recently lent a copy
of - Understanding Computers and Cognition : A New Foundation for
Design - by Terry Winograd, Fernando Flores:

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0201112973/psybernbooksinasA/>

It has a chapter:  Cognition as a Biological Phenomenon.
Specifically on Matuarana & Varela, I'm looking forward to
getting to read all this stuff. I have also been reading Fritjof
Capra "The Web of Life" ... who has interesting things to say
about these things.

Please do bring in topics of interest.

> Since signing, I have pretty much only seen discussions
> about the state of the list itself. Could someone please clarify?
>
> I do not mean any of this to sound offensive or obnoxious to anybody.

Not at all, good to have your probes.

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:12:20 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Evan Morris <evan@EXCLUSIVEBOOKS.CO.ZA>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Thanks for the reply, Walter

On a related subject, then, let me say that I am currently reading what I
regard as the best non-fiction book I have ever read: The User Illusion by
Tor Norretranders (it is translated from the Danish). Although the book does
not address - or has not yet addressed (I'm about halfway through) - the
idea of the 'soul', there are some interesting facts that might open
discussion on the subject. Perhaps the most mind-blowing part of the book
that I have encountered is the discussion of 'the bandwidth of
consciousness', which is to say, the rate at which consciousness is able to
process information. While it is estimated that the total rate of
information into the human brain from the sensory receptors is something
like 1.4 gigabytes per second (!), the conscious mind only seems capable of
processing about 50 BITS pers second, and that is at the upper limit of its
application. What Norretranders is arguing, essentially, is that
consciousness really isn't very important to us as organisms at all...it's
sort of like a circus sideshow. The bulk of our responses, actions and
decisions emerges from things that we are not conscious of, and are - in
fact - totally incapable of becoming conscious of.

Another interesting idea - which is certainly not original to Norretranders,
but heavily discussed in the book - is the idea that information has meaning
because of what has been left out of it, not because of what it includes. He
calls the important part of information 'exformation'. Without trying to
reproduce his arguments here - although we can discuss them at length if
anyone is interested - what Norretranders is saying has an enormous bearing
on the Web, where there is a wealth of information but a dearth of
exformation. You have to remember that - in pure communication theory terms
- even the babbling of an idiot is information. In fact, the babbling of an
idiot contains FAR MORE information than a line of poetry, or an algebraic
expression, and yet its meaning is significantly less. The reason for this
is that the babbling of an idiot is information without logical depth, ie
nothing has been discarded before the utterance or expression, whereas in a
line of poetry or a phrase of music by Bach, an enormous amount has been
discarded, condensed and calculated into it, so that the exformation far
outweighs the information, the phrase or line has logical depth, and we
experience this as meaning.

I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, because I'm extremely excited
about this book and the ideas it contains (even the parts about
thermodynamics...so much so that I have made a commitment to revisit
mathematics, which is quite something for me).

I wonder if any of what I have said has much bearing on the proper topics of
this list. Perhaps someone else can eke out the relevant meaning and we can
discuss it.

Cheers


Evan Morris
evan@exclusivebooks.co.za
+ 27 11 792 2777 (tel)
+ 27 11 792 2711 (fax)


>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:23:42 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
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walter, could you please fix my status so i can post from nori@fdn.com? i
like the shortversion better. my isp has been usurped by yet another
company... i have 3 different mail adresses now.... ok thank you i am
resetting the default in my options now...
eternally dyed in shabd,
                wayne
p.s. my grandfathers name was/is *walter* edward richardson=)
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">walter, could you please fix my status =
so i can post from nori@fdn.com? i like the shortversion better. my isp =
has been usurped by yet another company... i have 3 different mail =
adresses now.... ok thank you i am resetting the default in my options =
now...<br>eternally dyed in shabd,<br>&#009;&#009;wayne<br>p.s. my =
grandfathers name was/is *walter* edward richardson=3D)</p>
</font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BF1493.79B02C00--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:19:08 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: free association
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uhh... hi all

should I be asking
if I can come back onto
the psyber-l list... ?

oh no. thats right I am on.

Free assosciation data huh !!?
Flesh is made word eh?   y2k !

far out... ! eh?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:21:36 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: free association
MIME-Version: 1.0
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any astrologers here?

i've got a question.

is there any significance to this
year 2000 'planetary alignment' thing you
keep hearing that 'they' say is gonna happen,

or is it just one of those urban myths ?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Oct 1999 22:07:39 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: free association
In-Reply-To:  <01bf169a$dc5fbe20$299b60cb@utunga.paradise.net.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Free association and Y2K ....

Well, what significance is the year 2000?  Counting ability is suspect as
dating is all wrong ... if I am not mistaken the real date if we use Christ
as the starting point would be 2003/4/5 (it's tough getting the dates all
right) ....  what about other calendars?  .... now do the stars obey only
the Christian calendar which has been adopted by the modern world due to
commerce and the British empire turned American empire?  .... hysteria  ...
boredom and the need to create an issue *out there* to avoid the real
issues *within* ... and the real *shadows* of the collective unconscious ...

and then there is the need to be right even when being *right* is not a
concept that is within the scope of being human (nor is being wrong) ...

rgl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:06:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
In-Reply-To:  <014E5138E613D111BFAA00805F06B07724FD7C@server.exclusivebooks.co.za>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Evan, all,

Welcome to Psyber-L, Evan. Your excitement over and summary of some of the
points made in _The User Illusion_ are right on topic and welcome. This
post covers two facets in my estimation: what is of interest to you (and
implied in that is a wider ranging import since it fits into your
professional discipline and several ways in which understanding is
currently being sought,) and what "excites" you; which, for me, points in
the direction of what you willingly are engaged in, engaged by, and, so
excitement is linked to energy, vitality, thrills and spills... :-)

This list literally runs on vitality; it's essential, imo.

***

I've ordered the book from the library. What few of its assumptions you've
mentioned are not congruent with my own so I'm looking forward to being
stretched. However, as a person in Islam, I could write my own "User
Illusion" if need be..

Ummm, my own illusions are more than enough to fuel such a project!

***

peace. Stephen


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

"There is no knowledge without objectivity of the intelligence,
there is no freedom without objectivity of the will,
there is no nobility without objectivity of the soul."

Frithjof Schoun

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:58:25 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Back Miles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Miles good to have you back, I knew you were gone, but it was
only briefly?

Your full email is posted below.  You will see there are two
email addresses there... I added them both.  If you don't want
both to get posts you can always go NOMAIL, which is handy if you
have two email addresses, as you can then still go to the
archives and you can still post from the address.  (If anyone
else wants that just let me know by private email.)

Yes the post goes to me.  The intros from new people go to the
list.  That way people joining have the opportunity of a good
welcome, as we can respond to something they have offered, even
before they knew us!

All for now...


Walter


~~~


To: <PSYBER-L-request@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re:      PSYBER-L: utunga@PARADISE.NET.NZ requested to
join
From: "MIles Thompson" <miles@mail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 08:50:57 -0700

Hi Walter,

Does this go to you ?

Well I have now returned from my travels and
am looking forward to my having a bit of time to
pursue more sedentary interests - not that
Psybernet is especially sedentary, but it
does seem to require a bit of space and
time for reading and consideration of your
replies !!

I am looking forward to consulting the
archives of what has been happening,
no doubt many interesting things, but
I will, of course need to subscribe before
I can read the archives.

I hope that all are well on the list,
and the things are going well.

Maybe there will be nobody
I recognise!


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:04:21 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
In-Reply-To:  <199910121321.JAA05275@smtp.leading.net>
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Wayne

> walter, could you please fix my status so i can post from nori@fdn.com?

Done.  Is it all working ok?

> i
> like the shortversion better.

It is nice, like a stone worn smooth in a river, as Neal
Stephenson might say.

> my isp has been usurped by yet another
> company... i have 3 different mail adresses now.... ok thank you i am
> resetting the default in my options now...
> eternally dyed in shabd,
>                 wayne
> p.s. my grandfathers name was/is *walter* edward richardson=)


shabd?

Yes, it is a grand fatherly sort of name.  I more or less made it
up for myself aged 7 as an anglicised version of Wouter, my Dutch
name, which kids in Australia just played havoc with (and the
adults too.)


Wouter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:48:59 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: free association
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Miles,
and miles
and miles,

how far did you go?

Cheryl


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:34:44 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: The Association for Transpersonal Psychology - Cultivating
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Walter,
I would love to hear more about the Transpersonal Psych online
conference. I have participated in a couple of online conferences
and enjoyed them very much. In fact, that's how I first came
to Psyber-L because I encountered Charles in one such event.
I guess I'm going to have to break down and get a new computer
soon so that I can be online at hone again in a way that I enjoy.
Trying to keep up from work just doesn't work and even bringing
the laptop home is not working as I do not have access to it
very much.

Cheryl








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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:03:28 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         GwR <nori@FDN.COM>
Organization: Infinity
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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tap... tap... tap... i think this thing is on=)


> > eternally dyed in shabd,
> >                 wayne
> > p.s. my grandfathers name was/is *walter* edward richardson=)
>
>
> shabd?
sound... also Nam or Eck or Haq

http://www.he.net/~naam/
>
> Yes, it is a grand fatherly sort of name.  I more or less made it
> up for myself aged 7 as an anglicised version of Wouter, my Dutch
wonder if its an offshoot of the norse, Wotan. could be like "kindred of odin" r sump'n

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:06:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         GwR <nori@FDN.COM>
Organization: Infinity
Subject:      Re: The Association for Transpersonal Psychology - Cultivating
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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i think ken wilber just came out with a "best of" type of package featuring
his first five books or 3 books or whatever it was.
ken coined the phrase "transpersonal. psyche" and has also been refered to
as "the einstein of conciousness". i read The Atman Project back about 15
years ago when i was 18. i lurked around his vajrayana forum once and found
some good threads.

On Friday, October 15, 1999 6:35 PM, Cheryl Foltos [SMTP:cfolt@COINET.COM]
wrote:
> Walter,
> I would love to hear more about the Transpersonal Psych online
> conference. I have participated in a couple of online conferences
> and enjoyed them very much. In fact, that's how I first came
> to Psyber-L because I encountered Charles in one such event.
> I guess I'm going to have to break down and get a new computer
> soon so that I can be online at hone again in a way that I enjoy.
> Trying to keep up from work just doesn't work and even bringing
> the laptop home is not working as I do not have access to it
> very much.
>
> Cheryl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html )
> The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:14:58 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: The Association for Transpersonal Psychology - Cultivating
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

GwR,
Actually, I'm not very interested in reading Ken Wilbur - although
you're hardly the first person to suggest it. I was a philosophy
major in college and have pretty much given up that sort of reading/discourse.
Occaisionally I've come across an interview with him that I have
appreciated but I'm really not into books much these days. I
was actuallu asking about that conference which Walter mentioned.
Also - who are you? I don't know the GwR appellation.
Thanks,
Cheryl





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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:52:07 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: The Association for Transpersonal Psychology - Cultivating
In-Reply-To:  <151099288.58497@208.139.26.35>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Cheryl,

I'm glad you are getting the new computer... you may just be the
one to swing the critical mass around here :)

I think GwR -- Wayne -- is talking about the conference i am
going to.  Ken Wilbur is a bit of a star in the ATP and is
presenting there... answering questions!  I'd never head of him
really... only leafed through books in shops incidentally.
Deciding about presenting at this conference was partly
influenced by Judith saying some things about Wilbur... I have
since bought a book...

I was a philosophy major too (we don't use that word here...
major, at least not as a noun in 1969 when I "majored" in
philosophy doing a BA. (which is how we do use the word) I quit
during my next year, loosing faith in all that academic stuff...
I was doing an MA in philosophy of education and threw it in to
start a "School without Walls" ie believing in doing it rather
than talking about it.  I think if I'd stayed in academia I'd be
richer, but know less!

In the forum i am conducting in the Conf. I want to present a few
*ideas* but mostly have sharing of experience od "Cyberspace and
Psyche".

I will make some sort of summary of the my experience there...
there will also be a CD of the proceedings... I am now curious
about the boundaries of such a conf.  I must check what the
understanding is there as to who can read the stuff and if the CD
can be freely copied.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:40:58 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: The Association for Transpersonal Psychology - Cultivating
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Walter,
I'm not sure I understand...are you "going" somewhere to this
conference or is it online or is it both? hmmm...both...I can't
imagine. Also, I tink some of the stuff you guys do with your
computers is great ..like the search engine data you were talking
about..I wish I knew more about how to use my computer online.I
know next to nothing about the many resources that are out there
- like "mailstart" which I told so many people about. I don't
know what "critical mass" you may be talking about,however, here
on Psyber-L. I just know that I miss being here in ways that
I would not have anticipated. I think Schools without Walls are
wonderful - I've learned more since being in school than ever
in school. But what I really want in my life is a partner - it's
just where I'm at...kind of different for me really - to be serious
about taking the risks involved ..when I've been thin and therefore
in the 'attracting' mode, I've always been the one to run away.
Now that I'm less likely to run I'm not able to really interest
anyone. I'm kind of in a bit of a feel sorry for myself mode
today - feeling a little raw.
Still....glad to be here.
Cheryl



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Date:         Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:24:27 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: The Association for Transpersonal Psychology - Cultivating
In-Reply-To:  <151099288.63656@204.245.234.59>
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Cheryl,

> I'm not sure I understand...are you "going" somewhere to this
> conference or is it online or is it both? hmmm...both...I can't
> imagine.

Is all online!  Was that true of the conferences you spoke of?
Where you met Charles?  It feels like I am going somewhere...
hence my theme idea for the presentation:  the flesh made word.

> Also, I tink some of the stuff you guys do with your
> computers is great ..like the search engine data you were talking
> about..I wish I knew more about how to use my computer online.

I never think of myself as a computer sort of person... it is
still hard to accept that i know something about technology... I
don't think i do actually... I am very awkward with a
screwdriver.  I don't program or understand much about how it all
works... the big attraction here, earlier than most was spell
checkers. Even now I check every post, and there are usually 5 or
6 errors, some just typos, but others just silly things I'll
never grasp, as to why they use double letters in one place and
not another etc. those things never imprint on my brain, they
seem to wash off.  It does not have the neurones for it.
Computers do, and so i feel much freer in the world.  In the
university days Most of the time was spent rewriting stuff by
hand.  When I did my social work paper in 82... still no computer
I paid to have the essays typed up.

That search engine data was just something I heard about... but
it is quite something!  It is not freely available.  Maybe it
should be.


> I
> know next to nothing about the many resources that are out there
> - like "mailstart" which I told so many people about.

There are great things happening, and I think we are all
struggling to keep up just knowing about these cool things. This
conference is interesting for me ... the form as well as the
content.  Not so much Caucus software... which i know from
another forum, Howard Rheingold's Brainstorms but that it has a
conf fee, and set dates.  I am not sure about those things...
time is so different here in cyberspace.  My forum will start
Tuesday and go for a week.  It is much the same theme as
Psyber-L... how would we do it in a week?

> I don't
> know what "critical mass" you may be talking about,however, here
> on Psyber-L. I just know that I miss being here in ways that
> I would not have anticipated.

Oh it has been on my mind ever since Stephen has said it, sever
times I think that Psyber-L might lack the numbers of committed
people to really do its best thing. (my paraphrase entirely!)

> I think Schools without Walls are
> wonderful - I've learned more since being in school than ever
> in school.

That is another story... The school "Four Avenues" it was called,
after the four avenues that surround Christchurch city centre,
was mainly MY school without walls... I learnt heaps... one thing
being that kids are more interested in *each other* than learning
and to be in groups walls actually help!

Next item to new post!  "Relationships"


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:40:37 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: The Association for Transpersonal Psychology - Cultivating
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Walter,
The conference where I met Charles was all online - I've done
a couplke of them can't remember which one it was - maybe something
on Spirituality Learning...Contemplative Learning I think it
was called. Once it started it was closed but then later it was
published online for awhile ...or maybe that was another one.

Relationships....yes, let's talk about relationships.

Cheryl


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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:51:37 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Relationships
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl,

> But what I really want in my life is a partner - it's
> just where I'm at...kind of different for me really - to be serious
> about taking the risks involved ..

I'm glad you have been telling us about your adventures in
relationships. Sounds like while you have had computer struggles
the parallel with your love life has continued right on.  You are
without a PC and a relationship... with all sorts of lightning
strikes behind you. Fears ahead.

When you do get the new PC I hope you get a beautiful thing!
Your heart's desire and that it may never play up, crash, or get
in the way of what you really want to do.  And more so, that the
parallel with a partner continues apace.

Feeling raw... has the recent experience been bad for you?  Was
it worth it, as it were, for all the pain?

I will move into talking about my experience...

I have had a rugged history with relationships... but right now
Kate & i are doing well.  Ten years together, and our first
marriage anniversary is coming up next month.

(I plan to post all those who sent poems etc. the booklet BTW...
it was wonderful to have that... I was sick just before the
wedding and it needs editing, though it did the job adequately at
the time, I want a better version).

Rawness right now is not about having a partner... touch wood.  I
do feel rawness though... and it is somehow hard to get across...
I feel I go on and on about it too... it is about my identity,
connection with psychodrama, feeling a bit lost with Psybernet.
The image I have is of being possessed by external structures...
like an alien inside me.  All my psychodrama knowledge and skill
feels like it occupies me.  Extracting it does not seem to
work... the remnants multiply!

It is like having an ex-partner who wont go away.  A relationship
that is not over.

Dream:  I was doing therapy with a family.  It was the second
session.  They had come to visit me in a country house (batch...
not the one where I am right now thou... one with no real life
equivalent)  In a corner of the room was a cubicle.  An old
friend from psychodrama days... ( I am reluctant to name him here
for some reason... whew -- issue in its own right)  was in the
cubicle.  I am grappling away with this family and it is
difficult.  Suddenly the ex-friend is sitting next to me
chuckling and making sarcastic and confrontative comments to the
family.  The family leave without paying.  The children in the
family quickly set up a whole pile of hand held computers and
emailed stuff about the meeting before they go.  The mess the
family left was shocking, paper and clothes etc.

I said to the ex-friend:  You are not invited, please leave.  He
would not go.  I'll call the cops.  He still would not leave.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:16:40 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Relationships
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Walter,
The raw feeling today is more one of aching vulnerabilty. I want
more from a current relationship than perhaps will ever be there.
The 'recent experience' is still in process and is what I am
talking about. He is a very very cautious person, only recently
divorced after many many years. I'd like to talk about it more
here but I just don't feel I can. I am also very very cautious.
I know he likes me - seems very nervous around me, I am just
as nervous - I sense alot of holding back on both sides - I was
with him today and afterwards I just found myself aching. The
risk is of course exposing one's real feeling and desires to
the other and as it now I really can't see either one of us doing
that. He's very sensitive and perceptive and really holds his
cards close - very discreet - seems to need alot of reassurance
but then  so do I. And of course there's the weight thing. I
guess the biggest fear is the humilation of unrequited love and
going away feeling unlovable at the core. I could alsmost cry
just thinking about the possibility. Deep breaths....

Cheryl


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:37:04 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Dream
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Walter,
I also had a dream last night concerning someone who I know does
not like me and mocks me behind my back. She is in a very real
sense a rival and in the dream she was kissing and then (behind
the scenes) had sex with the person I am aching over(in real
life). Then she got sick and was vomiting blood and was limp
and we were dragging her out of the room. In the meantime, the
person that I have been writing about tonight (shall I call him
'heart's desire"? ;) was just watching this scene from a podium
where he was giving a lecture. He did not come to her aid which
was odd because in the dream he was a doctor.

Some of this dream reflects recent events since the woman rival
and I took a CPR class last week and of course I work around
doctors all the time.

So we are dreaming about our insecurities and our rivals and
being mocked...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:09:05 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Relationships
In-Reply-To:  <151099288.69400@204.245.234.95>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl,

Your ache comes across!  Oh, yours reminds me of ones i have had,
and always around relationships... nothing it seems is as painful
as that, especially when it seems like there is something we need
to do ourselves...

Both of us in this exchange have said we find it hard to say some
things here.  What is that about?

In my case i feel bad about naming someone.  It makes sense I
suppose.  Once people are here, if they abide by the rules, may
not quote what we write here. Only members can access the
archives.  This is a confidential place. It is in the welcome
files and so on, and i would protect Psyber-l by enforcing that
proviso.

It is not about all of that though is it? I would like to hear
what your reluctance is about. The vulnerability, I know... but
what is the image... the imaginary image of what will happen
here.  Actually you have said, though in a slightly different
context... does this apply here too:

> I
> guess the biggest fear is the humilation of unrequited love and
> going away feeling unlovable at the core.

Mine, among more unconscious stuff, is that people will see me as
vindictive, blaming, re my ex friend.

~

Looks.

I just know they don't really matter... but I like being
invisible here... even though I have recently posted my picture
to the net! The delight of purely text based comm is ending...
webcams are cheaper, computers are building them in, digital
cameras are taking over photography, and it is fun to get pix,
the conference i am in simply asked me for a picture and put it
in the opening paragraph of my conference... I'm on the edge with
it.

Why, not even having ever seen you, do I believe that the weight
is not about the kilos but the psyche... there is a huge shadowy
force in the collective about it, and so it is hard to go
against...

> The 'recent experience' is still in process and is what I am
> talking about.

I read that as it is all still alive and happening.  It is not
about grief but the agony of the present. Cautious but still
engaged...

Thanks for bringing yourself here... for all the reluctance and
difficulty you are doing it really... both here and with him.


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:12:21 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Dream
In-Reply-To:  <151099288.70624@204.245.234.110>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl,

> So we are dreaming about our insecurities and our rivals and
> being mocked...

Yes.  In my case I see that more clearly as an aspect of myself.
I do it to others and to myself... more subtly to others...

When i do it to others it feels like the alien within me.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:07:53 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Relationships
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

--- Original Message ---
        Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> Wrote on
        Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:09:05 +1300
 ------------------
Cheryl,

Your ache comes across!  Oh, yours reminds me of ones i have
had,
and always around relationships... nothing it seems is as painful
as that, especially when it seems like there is something we
need
to do ourselves...

Both of us in this exchange have said we find it hard to say
some
things here.  What is that about?

In my case i feel bad about naming someone.  It makes sense I
suppose.  Once people are here, if they abide by the rules, may
not quote what we write here. Only members can access the
archives.  This is a confidential place. It is in the welcome
files and so on, and i would protect Psyber-l by enforcing that
proviso.

It is not about all of that though is it? I would like to hear
what your reluctance is about. The vulnerability, I know... but
what is the image... the imaginary image of what will happen
here.  Actually you have said, though in a slightly different
context... does this apply here too:

> I
> guess the biggest fear is the humilation of unrequited love
and
> going away feeling unlovable at the core.

Mine, among more unconscious stuff, is that people will see me
as
vindictive, blaming, re my ex friend.

~

Looks.

I just know they don't really matter... but I like being
invisible here... even though I have recently posted my picture
to the net! The delight of purely text based comm is ending...
webcams are cheaper, computers are building them in, digital
cameras are taking over photography, and it is fun to get pix,
the conference i am in simply asked me for a picture and put
it
in the opening paragraph of my conference... I'm on the edge
with
it.

Why, not even having ever seen you, do I believe that the weight
is not about the kilos but the psyche... there is a huge shadowy
force in the collective about it, and so it is hard to go
against...

> The 'recent experience' is still in process and is what I am
> talking about.

I read that as it is all still alive and happening.  It is not
about grief but the agony of the present. Cautious but still
engaged...

Thanks for bringing yourself here... for all the reluctance and
difficulty you are doing it really... both here and with him.


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html





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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:25:07 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Relationships
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

All,
oops, sorry...I just hit 'sent' instead of 'reply'

Walter,
My reluctance to say more here has to do with this being a public
medium. I'm afraid to say enough that could identify who I am
talking about in the event that somehow he would find out. 'Heart's
desire' is the kind of person who would be horrified to find
out that I was discussing him/me/us here. I know the possibility
is remote but that doesn't matter to me. I also realize that
the people on the list are to keep what's written here, 'here'
but that doesn't mean it will always happen. I've learned things
like the hard way.

Also thanks for your response. I'm beginning to feel like I'm
'in conversation' again here - at least a bit. Sheryl had mentioned
awhile back that at least Psyber-L holds the possibility of depth
on the web but what's pretty clear to me is that the only depth
you get is the depth you put in - and even then you might not
always get a response. Still, this is a good place and I think
you work pretty hard to keep it that way.

One last thing - in dreams - yes, I agree that we are all the
parts/aspects that show up. When I was young (!) I was taught
to examine every character/event in the dream as some aspect
of yourself. Not always pleasant - always useful.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:17:41 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         GwR <nori@FDN.COM>
Subject:      please excuse this i'm having trouble importing my address book
Comments: To: Toadstroid@aol.com, STUMPERS-L@cuis.edu, Songie@aol.com,
          Scott Adams <pnpgm@softhome.net>,
          respool@listbot.com, Ooogaleee@aol.com, MU5Roam@aol.com, mm baylor
          <wookieland@ilnk.com>, Laurabelle Burgess <bellewulf@hotmail.com>,
          JetDrivr <jetdrivr@mediaone.net>,
          James Syfrett <hdsallmt@excite.com>,
          hillary valliere <hill3273@hotmail.com>,
          glasscamels@onelist.com, fenwick@thefenwicks.com, Eric Hanley
          <write2eric@hotmail.com>, Elaine <elainedc@bu.edu>,
          David Caldwell <drcstudios@worldnet.att.net>,
          davehend@bellsouth.net, cjmayer@mediaone.net, bomdotcom@excite.com,
          BethJudy@aol.com, Andrew King <andyking@leading.net>,
          a <ashley@earthling.net>, rabello@uniserve.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BF18B2.C108FBE0"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BF18B2.C108FBE0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

i dont know my way around outlook express as well yet so i'm doing it the
manually.

"Great ideas need landing gear as well as wings." -- C.D.
Jackson
------=_NextPart_000_01BF18B2.C108FBE0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">i dont know my way around outlook =
express as well yet so i'm doing it the manually.<br><br>&quot;Great =
ideas need landing gear as well as wings.&quot; -- C.D. <br>Jackson </p>
</font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BF18B2.C108FBE0--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Oct 1999 11:29:49 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      (fwd) Scheduled service interruption  Sun Oct. 31, 1999
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Forwarded from List Owner <all-request@home.ease.lsoft.com>,
a post from L-Soft Hosting Support <bparker@lsoft.com>, dated Fri, 22 Oct 1999
09:42:31 -0400,
with the subject "Scheduled service interruption  Sun Oct. 31, 1999":

~~~

ATTN: List Owner

This message is to notify you that L-Soft is planning a scheduled service
interruption on Sunday, October 31, 1999.  (Yes, we are having a special
Halloween work day.)  On this day L-Soft is moving its entire computer
center  to a new location and all machines and all services will necessarily
be interrupted for a time.

All of your list traffic (if any) on the list:  home.ease.lsoft.com
will be affected by this interruption.

The service outage is planned to start at 09:00 am (Eastern Standard Time)
and will last for several hours.  During this time NO services (i.e. no mail,
ftp or WWW services) or connectivity to our machines will be available.
However, mail in transit will be preserved and will be processed normally
when service is restored.

Site Managers should notify anyone (List Owners, etc) with a need to know.
List Owners may wish to inform their list subscribers of this interruption.

We apologize for the inconvenience and we appreciate your selecting L-Soft for
your list-hosting needs.  The new computer center will enable us to serve you
better.  If you have any questions or concerns about how our move will affect
your service please write to:  ease-home@home.ease.lsoft.com

Our new street address will be:

 L-Soft international Inc.
 8100 Corporate Drive, Suite 350
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Our phone number(s) remain the same as always:

 Phone:  301-731-0440
 Fax:    301-731-6302
 WWW:    http://www.lsoft.com      (please visit our new website)

L-Soft international Inc.


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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