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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Sep 1999 02:27:09 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Evan Morris
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Evan Morris,

Welcome to Psyber-L, your interests give me the sense you will enjoy our
discussions here and also that you may well want to post up things that
interest you, with a good chance of thoughtful discussion.

It is a while since we have had talk of McLuhan, I'd welcome your ideas and
thoughts ...

I have posted your intro below, thanks for that.

Walter

~~~~

Evan Morris wrote:


Hi

I'm sending this as a brief introduction of myself to the list.

My name is Evan Morris and I work in book retail on the Web. I live in South
Africa. I have recently become interested in the works of Jean Baudrillard
and by extension in the works of Marshall McLuhan. My readings of these two
are at present very limited, and my understanding of what I have read is
perhaps even more limited. However, I have a deep personal interest in the
matters that they discuss, as well as a semi-professional one in that I
write fiction as well. I hope to broaden my ability to write by
investigating topics such as those discussed on this mailing list.

Thank you

Evan Morris
evan@exclusivebooks.co.za
+ 27 11 792 2777 (tel)
+ 27 11 792 2711 (fax)


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:54:30 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Montessori
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Walter,
Been away from my 'puter attempting to gain resolution to a mental
construct...think this am early I found a way to frame it...picked up Ken
Wilbur's One Taste...his logic always assists me...that said...
>Judith,
>
>I am picking this snippet out from your last post:
>
>  squareONE
>  Sun, 29 Aug 1999 10:46:12 -0400
>
>So I can give it a new name.
>
>> My son has a process and he is aware of his process (Montessori and I
>> taught him from the beginning that he alone knows what is correct for him,
>
>I went to a Montessori school for the first 2 year or so (in
>Amsterdam).  Interesting experience... I suddenly realised just
>how much I lost when my parents then immigrated to Australia and
>the Montessori experience was cut woefully short.  The migration
>of course had its own wonderful learning, six weeks on the
>FairSea and 3 months living in the outback in Victoria, before
>moving to the wonderful climate of Sydney and the beautiful bush
>on its outskirts.
>
>However the schooling in Australia was seriously bad news!
>Structured lessons ... (content wise! I mean!  :)  corporal
>punishment etc.
>
>Montessori was strange although looking back on it. I had two
>favorite activities, one was drawing circles and painting them
>yellow -- repeated that thousands of times, attempting to perfect
>my technique of not going *onto* the line let alone over it.
>The other was polishing brass ornaments - especially one favorite
>little jug -- I polished it for what still seems like eternity.

J: Activity which is at the heart of Madame Montessori's theory...that a
child given the opportunity will continue with an activity until the child
is finished with it, maybe for the time being...meaning that learning to go
into something in depth which takes as long as it takes is important...my
own theory on ADD is the 45 minute bell...it takes children away from the
depth of pursuit and frustrates and causes anxiety to rise...then it
becomes self reinforcing later and we call the symptom the problem...anyway
polishing gave you something as did Jon working on the bead bar for
hours...you received the ability to look in depth at something thus your
pursuit in this day
>
>Was all that good for me?  I wonder.  Maybe some *extension* of
>that into more creative areas wa called for?  But who knows, they
>were my choices, and there was plenty of choice.  I was not much
>of an explorer in that classroom.

Another of Montessori premises is that all comes in the proper time and the
directress job is to witness and assist as the child enters their own
learning experience...creativity may not have been "up" for you at that
time...
>
>~~~
>
>Sounds like your son had a good experience there... I wish I'd
>continued on with it... Im curious now as to how that would have
>been... it would really be easy to see what was more naturally
>me.  I have a sense that the perfectionistic streak that I had
>might have given way to something else of its own accord if left
>longer.

That opportunity is always present to pursue...pursuing the idea of
perfection and how that dynamic plays out is available to play with...in my
view the experience we hadhave wasis the experience necessary for our
path...with more awareness comes more opportunity for choice, nes pas?
>
>All of that might have more of an influence on me than I really
>give it credit for... I was instrumental in setting up an
>alternative school here in the early 70s which recently closed.
>There are 2 or 3 others springing up at the moment though
>following some of the model.

IMO We're each contributing to our own evolution AND the universal
consciousness thru our actions and this time calls for a more encompassing
educational process...Montessori was the result of her scientific
exploration based in her passion...she did what she believed in...I value
that

Blessings,
Judith
>
>
>Walter

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:12:11 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: squareONE
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,

snipping

your comment reminds me of a very funny story told to me recently (BTW I
love Tibetan humor...the monks make me laugh so hard)


J:>> here's an
>> excerpt from your questions to Stephen...remember as you read I am not
>> familiar with the references you mentioned however, I am assuming an agenda
>> by them which says "this is our way"...you obviously have are unaligned
>> with anyone who says  *THE way*
>
W:>You are right in that the examples I offer are ONE way in that
>they offer specific methods and processes, that seem universally
>applicable.  I think the processes often "work wonders" and so
>they foster that belief that there is one way.
>
>I think I am unaligned with the cults and the born again
>approaches, AND also with shoddy anything goes, unthought out
>muddles!  I am trying to find some way of being where i feel OK,
>and right now that is hard... this stuff hits me hard...

My healer had journeyed to India to work in the Bonpo Monestary in the
clinic...she took donations from our community here in american dollars...

The Abbot was separating the bills into piles deciding where to allot the
money to the many projects he has going...this lead to his commenting on
the difficulty of telling one bill from the other, all being the same
size...Laura pointed out the different presidents on the bills

The Abbot: yes, well Bill Clinton should be on a bill

Laura: Well, Abbot, a lot of people aren't happy with him right now

The Abbot: But Bill Clinton is happy

And one of his stories told which speaks to your aversion to muddy thinking:

The Abbot was studying various monastic traditions and he was visiting the
monestaries...he wwent to an island in Greece where as he said no women
were allowed...no females animals were allow either

The Abbot: I said: What about the birds?

>
>I think it mirrors something quite drastic in my own psyche ... a
>Logos Eros conflict or... Mother Father thing???

As always, Walter, I don't know about "drastic"

Back to Ken Wilbur
Blessings,
Judith

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Sep 1999 17:12:34 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: squareONE
In-Reply-To:  <v01550108b3f2c54ef189@[207.54.181.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith

> As always, Walter, I don't know about "drastic"

It may sound a bit over the top, however as I searched for the word I saw
an image of my psyche as a landscape, in places it is pastoral, in other
places there are villages, but there is also a rough and unchartered area,
with dense bush, ravines and thundering rivers...

My need and love for structure and boundaries and frameworks meeting up
with my "unalignment" with cults and born again fundamentalism is like a
one of those ravines that Indiana Jones can only *just* make it across...

It feels drastic to me... however  I am open to finding a better word!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Sep 1999 17:20:15 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Roles Online
In-Reply-To:  <37c0c997.176300370@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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 http://www.psybernet.co.nz/roles/

The next version 0.07 of "Roles Online" the doc Dan & I are writing is on
the web... another one will be up soon, I'll keep you posted.  You will
also find the files there with instructions as to how to join the roles
group.

We have are up here in our holiday home working on it, though today our
families arrived and the snow is calling!

The document is still very rough, and not for public distribution.  The
next one will have a preface, which shows more how this writing ties in
with my experience here in Psyber-L.

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Sep 1999 00:59:34 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche and email
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a03b3e46206bbc2@[195.200.13.210]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Simon,

You wrote:
  Re: Psyche and email
  Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:52:15 +0100


> But the ability to cooperate is not in itself a good thing.
> People can cooperate on a lie. Isn't that what dysfunctional
> families and dysfunctional societies do?


As to it being a good or a bad thing *in itself*,  I am sure you
are right... it depends what we do.

I have been thinking of movies as an example of cooperation --
war is too! Cooperation to kill.  The "open source" movement is
cooperative / collaborative, and so is a corporation.  There is
good and bad in all of that.

I have been thinking of how cooperation happens on the net.

We form swirls of cooperation -- this small wisp is a
collaborative experiential exploration of the psyche online. The
swirls, do what groups and society has always done, but faster,
morph and die and reform and meld.  We can now re-rout around
"bad cooperation" -- vote with our mouse... it is easier to get
out of a net swirl than out of dysfunctional families and
dysfunctional societies.

Could this mean that coop is getting better -- or just better
when its good and worse when it's bad?

~~~

I am hosting a small group of us who have been writing about
designs and protocols for online collaboration, (interested
others may join):

http://www.egroups.com/group/collab_project/info.html


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Sep 1999 19:49:51 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Eric Griffin-Shelley, Ph.D.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Welcome Eric Griffin-Shelley, Ph.D.

Eric, apologies for taking over a week to add you to the list.
Rivalry of various commitments I am afraid.  However such is the
beauty of asynchronous communication that we can do this *paced*.


We have had a quiet psyber-l for a few weeks. It can be like that
here, we have 32 people aboard 33 now with you added to the list.
A high proportion of the members have been here for some time,
and have made substantial contributions -- all in the archives.

I would be interested in hearing more about your online work with
the MYDAILY sites. When you say consult, what do you do there
exactly, do you consult to the owners of the site or the people
who join?

Look forward to hearing from you.  Your intro is below:


Walter


~~~


|  I am interested in joining Psyber-L because my work as a psychologist seems
|  to draw me increasingly in this direction.  I specialize in addictions work,
|  especially sexual and relational addictions, and cyberspace appears to be a
|  fertile ground for these problems.  I also consult with a commercial website
|  (MYDAILYHEALTH.com) and it's addiction subsite (MYDAILYRECOVERY.com).  Eric
|  Griffin-Shelley, Ph.D.
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:39:13 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Eric Griffin-Shelley <Ericgs1@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Eric Griffin-Shelley, Ph.D.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks Walter.
I developed a good deal of the content for MyDailyRecovery.com and now answer
questions and monitor the "discussion groups" (actually bulletin boards).  My
specialty of sexual addiction and lead into an interest in cybersex
addiction.  This had lead to more general interest in online psychology
(hence joining this list) and how addictions fit into the mix.  I look
forward to learning more from others on the list.  Thanks again for the
welcome.
Eric.

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:38:03 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Learning about Online Psychology
In-Reply-To:  <fcb8029e.2516f851@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Eric,

> I developed a good deal of the content for MyDailyRecovery.com and now answer
> questions and monitor the "discussion groups" (actually bulletin boards).  My
> specialty of sexual addiction and lead into an interest in cybersex
> addiction.

Fascinating.  I had a look at the Q & A on the site and saw your straight
forward instructive comments.  I guess you would learn a lot about these
addictive behaviours just hearing the stories.

> This had lead to more general interest in online psychology
> (hence joining this list) and how addictions fit into the mix.  I look
> forward to learning more from others on the list.  Thanks again for the
> welcome.

One of the tenets that has been strong in my training as a psychotherapist has
been the experiential component of training.  In the description of the psyber-l
we aim to explore online psychology (I think the actual words used are psyche in
cyberspace) experientially and certainly that is what I think we have done here.

One thing I have learnt from being here is about my own role in a space like
this.  Initially before we moved onto the Internet I was the Sysop (the software
gave me no choice).  To overcome the limitations (as I saw it) of that title I
called myself "facilitator".  That carried on through onto the net where I am
now still the List Owner.  With much soul searching as some here will recall I
removed the line in the list's description where I said I was the "facilitator".
I have now learnt to use the words Administrator for what I do as List Owner and
Host, for what I do in the way of keeping the space open, interesting, and
conducive  to our explorations.  These words are not in the description of
psyber-l (yet?) but i use them in several other forums, and also in my collegial
discussions with Dan http://www.groupsense.co.nz where we are creating designs
for online interaction for mostly business clients.  Of course I am also a
participant here, and I think that is more possible online than in the
equivalent physical situations.

Now that was a psychological journey for me!  Simply learning the subtle but
essential distinctions, not so much linguistically, but personally.  This has
led to a paper i am writing called: Roles Online.  I will be posting up a new
version soon and will mention that here.

How does this resonate with your experiences as "moderator" Eric?

I would love to hear about the learning others have made from being online.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:12:11 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Eric Griffin-Shelley <Ericgs1@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Learning about Online Psychology
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 9/20/99 4:34:18 AM, walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

<< Now that was a psychological journey for me!  Simply learning the subtle
but
essential distinctions, not so much linguistically, but personally.  This has
led to a paper i am writing called: Roles Online.  I will be posting up a new
version soon and will mention that here.

How does this resonate with your experiences as "moderator" Eric?
 >>

Dear Walter,
Sounds like you have been more active than I.  Even initially, I was advising
the site owner, rather than being in that role myself.  On the message
boards, I do a lot of "lurking" and often only comment when I perceive a need
for a response.  I have enjoyed observing the development of the online
community.  Many of the members make it a point to remind newcomers that
there's no substitute for face-to-face communication and support.  I was not
sure that a recovery community was possible online, but my experience
suggests that it is.  We have dabbled with the idea of doing research, but it
wasn't in the budget and generating enough funds to keep us afloat was the
main focus (and still is).  Hope these comments are helpful.  Would like to
hear from others about their experiences.
Eric.

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:24:59 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Roles Online
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Walter Logeman wrote:
>
>  http://www.psybernet.co.nz/roles/
>
> The next version 0.07 of "Roles Online" the doc Dan & I are writing is on
> the web... another one will be up soon, I'll keep you posted.  You will
> also find the files there with instructions as to how to join the roles
> group.

N: Walter, though I have selected to respond to this particular message
to which to respond, I don't want it to seem that I object to this
message.
  It may be that at some point you have chosen to move away from the
discussion of depth psychology and Jungian psychology in particular.  (I
believe Psyber-L is not longer a link from the San Francisco Jung
Institute site,  as it was when I picked it up.)
  While I can understand that the 'role' concept would have appeal to a
psychodramatist (as well as your personal place here), I have dislike it
since I first ran across it in Social Work training years ago.
  I see us as moving more and more in that direction though it is a very
small part of psychology.  At the same time we are mostly drowning in
silence since the list became more private.
  It seems to me that roles are part of persona.  You asked me once a
couple of months ago if I saw you as 'such a tower' (from our brush with
the Eros/Psyche myth)  I see roles and persona as tower-like, useful for
protection and relatively impersonal functioning.  But in this I think
they impede, rather than aid,  expressions of depth psychology.  If
authenticity in depth psychology is not personal (and hence probably
somewhat idiosyncratic) what is it?
  With Jung I think 'thinking' (relatively impersonal) tended to be male
related, while 'feeling' (more personal) was more female related.  In
the years since his death we have moved away from these links (though
they still seem to haunt us, unconsciously perhaps.)
  I would ask you to examine your interpretation of your 'host role'.
This list is becoming more and more a 'profession' list and less and
less a human one.  Is Psyche 'professional' or 'human'?  It no longer
feels safe to be personal here, yet I had thought this was one of the
reasons for closing the list.
  It is no longer the list I joined.  Perhaps that is ok.  If so,
perhaps the name (or mission statement) needs to be changed.
  I see a number of differences between psyche f2f and on-line, some
good, some not so good, but they all touch a more personal level than
currently seems appropriate to the flow here.
  Whatdayathink?

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 24 Sep 1999 21:59:13 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Life in Psyber-L
In-Reply-To:  <37E7E99B.9300760E@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nancy, all,

It has taken a while for me to respond to you post:

  Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
  Re: Roles Online
  Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:24:59 -0700

I am deeply interested in the psyche, and the Roles Online
document relates to my interest in its own particular way. I
won't go into that right now.

Your post addresses a matter that I think relate to the group as
a whole.

You have a sense of the group moving in a direction characterised
by the word role and persona. (Is that summary ok?)

>   I see us as moving more and more in that direction though it is a very
> small part of psychology.  At the same time we are mostly drowning in
> silence since the list became more private.

Your experience, I am sure relates to something that is happening
here.  Is it that the list's archives are closed?  Everything
that happens here -- is up to us!  Within the description of the
list, much is possible, on personal and professional levels, and
especially on the interface of those.

>   I would ask you to examine your interpretation of your 'host role'.
> This list is becoming more and more a 'profession' list and less and
> less a human one.  Is Psyche 'professional' or 'human'?  It no longer
> feels safe to be personal here, yet I had thought this was one of the
> reasons for closing the list.

I hope that you can feel safe here.  How can I, and others play a
part in this?

I am delighted that there are people here who work online
professionally with people in psychological areas. It is within
the scope of the list to discuss our work with the psyche in this
way.  I am right with you that as this work is discussed we
involve our deeper selves, and our experience here in Psyber-L.

You raise your heartfelt concerns and relate them to what is
happening here... I hope we can continue here and be thoroughly
'human'  :)

I am keen to see life in the group, and it sounds like you do
Nancy... I think the 33 members here do lapse into quiet at times
I have a sense that sometimes I am sitting in silence with others
here... not altogether a bad experience.

You mentioned drowning in silence, sounds a painful experience
and i can imagine that the time it has taken to get this response
might contribute to you sense of lack of safety.


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:41:38 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Nancy, all,
>
> It has taken a while for me to respond to you post:
>
>   Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
>   Re: Roles Online
>   Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:24:59 -0700

Walter wrote:
>
> I am deeply interested in the psyche, and the Roles Online
> document relates to my interest in its own particular way. I
> won't go into that right now.
>
> Your post addresses a matter that I think relate to the group as
> a whole.
>
> You have a sense of the group moving in a direction characterised
> by the word role and persona. (Is that summary ok?)

N: No, it's really not ok (with me).  It is doing exactly was I was
writing about.  It takes about 1/3 of what I said and summaries it
accurately enough.  But by omitting what I said about the Jung Institute
and depth psychology, it subtly continues the into impersonality and
professionalism.  (I didlike that last word because it is used generaly
in a hieracrchical way to separate 'us' from 'them'. An unhealthy thing
IMO)
>
> >   I see us as moving more and more in that direction though it is a very
> > small part of psychology.  At the same time we are mostly drowning in
> > silence since the list became more private.
>
> Your experience, I am sure relates to something that is happening
> here.

N: This statement makes me feel placed among the 'them', as if you were
'giving me the benefit of the doubt' in that you couldn't image,
yourself, any relationship.

> Is it that the list's archives are closed?

N: You omitted my statement that I thought the purpose of closing them
was to make
this temenos a safer place.

> Everything
> that happens here -- is up to us!

N: It always was.

> > This list is becoming [a] less and
> > less [snip] human place.  It no longer
> > feels safe to be personal here, yet I had thought this was one of the
> > reasons for closing the list.

Walter wrote:

> I am delighted that there are people here who work online
> professionally with people in psychological areas. It is within
> the scope of the list to discuss our work with the psyche in this
> way.

N: I thought as much, nor do I object.. as long as it doesn't become
just another 'head trip'.  I know nothing save what you have said of
your work with Dan, yet I wonder if it's mode hasn't slipped over into
this list?

>I am right with you that as this work is discussed we
> involve our deeper selves, and our experience here in Psyber-L.

N: Hmmm...  Right with me?  New Zealand and the US.  I am not seeing any
depth involvement so far.  I would compare two Jungian conferences I
have attended: 1) the International where everyone was being so careful
of their reputions that little which hadn't already been published was
said, and 2) the National Chiron conference at Ghost Ranch where there
was so much group dynamics in action it was out there for all to see.
It was often used as a testing ground for new ideas.
  Not so safe, but very vital.
>
> You raise your heartfelt concerns and relate them to what is
> happening here... I hope we can continue here and be thoroughly
> 'human'  :)
>
> I am keen to see life in the group, and it sounds like you do
> Nancy...

N: Walter, can you really be missing the point of my post this much?  I
am mouring
the lose of the life that used to be here and seems now to have fled.  I
am questioning if it's absence may not be safer and more 'comfortable'
for some.

Walter continues:
> I think the 33 members here do lapse into quiet at times
> I have a sense that sometimes I am sitting in silence with others
> here... not altogether a bad experience.

N: I don't think we can expect 'new people' to feel 'right at home' and
with so much
silence they have no way of telling what sort of group they have
wandered into.

Walter again:
> You mentioned drowning in silence, sounds a painful experience
> and i can imagine that the time it has taken to get this response
> might contribute to you sense of lack of safety.

N: This sounds rather patronizing to me.  Does it look like it has done
so?  I'm afraid that actually the omission of most of the 'meat' of my
post I tend to attribute to a 'professional' wariness that bodes badly
for my concerns.  The concern seems to be for the media of the group
rather than for the human souls that make it up.
  I came across this site the other day which seems to illustrate what
is happening to this list:

http://www.users.interport.net/~mrex/experiments/eliza/eliza.html

N: I think we need to take care that we don't crush the life out of the
butterfly while trying to investigate what makes it fly.

          Nancy

PS Doesn't the notion fly that adults will impose the same abuses  on
others which they suffered as children?  Might that not include the
experience of feeling unseen?
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:01:19 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
In-Reply-To:  <TzvrNxcxNzPtR73PLtva+N=1=8bg@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,

I hope Walter will respond to your question, "Is Psyche 'professional' or
'human'?" But, I don't see Walter's engagement with people and especially
new subscribers as being anything but an attempt to forge an initial bridge
between the fund of interests here already and the interests of the person
new to Psyber-L. This is a complicated task and also complicated are the
varieties of interests and the multitude of levels; they may not hold
together.

Ironically, the schism between professional and personal (if you don't mind
me presuming that professionals are human too,) plays out on email lists
any number of ways, but, generally, I find it like this: on so-called
'professional' lists the personal is either not allowed, denigrated
(subjectivity=bad) or under-appreciated (read:not worth appreciating), and
on personal lists the professional is oft found limited by its own
categorical imperatives, its chilliness, its conventionality, etc.

Also, there is a funny (to me!) classism: 'professionals' evidently don't
like to hang and recreate the wheel (or "frequently-answered-questions")
for the unwashed nor do they usually enjoy the wild "performance art" that
breaks out in loosely structured environs. Meanwhile the personal wrought
into individualism of a frequently encountered type might then make of the
'professional' the masculine, conformist, corporate, 'scientific' and
proceed to void such a person's soul out altogether. One kind of performing
then becomes a relentless attempt to get under the professional's skin.

I've even witnessed therapists try to give entire email lists therapy in
the hopes of healing the email list, or at least making the list more 'easy
to take'. :-)

***

Ahh, but I could have made one word stand in for all of this.

Projection.

regards,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:01:01 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Roles Online
In-Reply-To:  <37E7E99B.9300760E@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

all,

Nancy writes,

>  It is no longer the list I joined.

I experience that Psyber-L has changed quite a bit from the seemingly
intimate list for which personal reflection was the stuff of its 'daywork'
to it status today, in my view, as in extended transition between what was
and what will be. In fact, from when I subscribed in 1995 I observed the
group grow into its most personal and intimate stage and then observed the
transformation; the transformation about which you passionately write.

Personally feeling about this process of change, I feel the loss of many
voices, sense that Psyber-L has slipped below the level of critical mass
with respect to the nature of a group willing and eager to soulfully
participate together on a day-to-day basis, and I also believe, Psyber-L
has not completely righted itself after the extended Wilbur-Julienne et al
episode.

***

That said, I would make several general observations. One, that email lists
organized around personal matters of psyche require a core group that is
committed on a day-to-day basis of engaging each other and, also, doing so
for the sake of the creative or generative flow of the group. Since both
you and I may refer to jung-circle as an exemplary group in this respect,
I'd point out jung-circle has a solid day-to-day core group of almost a
dozen persons.

I don't know any way around this structural requirement. Psyber-L seems
most vital when its vitality is being actively manifested. If the "old"
group has been dissipated then the real question of Psyber-L's future
vitality will be discovered in the way a new group activates its interests
on a day-to-day basis. As we each learn just how mutual and compelling
those interests are, we'll either activate our own vitality and creativity
or not.

Silence -I hope- means that things are percolating quietly.

***

I feel real intimacy in this environment is possible and illusory; a
paradox. As I will always maintain, in the sense of the archetypal
framework, *temenos* seems to me to be impossible at least because of the
silence and strangeness of the lurker. However, the fantasy of temenos is
quite possible.

***

best2all,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Sep 1999 10:43:11 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter and Nancy and all,

I am reading with interest your exchange which resonnated to my own
(seemingly unrelated) experience of late...may be that there is a
relationship...BMI (before my illness) I lived my life out of my observer
locus, dipping into participation but always "separated" by the construct
of observer...a framing for my experience began to emerge while
researching, sort of personal heuristcs, my knowing of participant...to see
what I didn't know...

Let me say as a context to experience what I share here, My own journey's
superordinate is 'balance' these days...that said...

My insight into my own experience, found that my focus from "observer" by
definition seemed to separate me from total immersion in
participation...two weeks ago as I was practicing Participation I had a
complete experience of what this felt like...for a few moments I shifted
out of my observer (let go of the holing on so to speak) and there I was
totally participating (in complete relationship) during a small exchange
with an aide in Physical Therapy...I was stunned to discover how fixed my
construct was and how "observer/participant" way of thinking was distancing
me from fully experiencing, tho I was experiencing fully "observer"...at
that moment the experience permeated the construct and it is now in the
process of disconstructing...seeking fluidity

One of the insights was that in the process of healing myself during my
20's (from the emotional turmoil of my youth) I had created this observer
construct...it had served me well...however, it had become the font of my
knowing and because my knowing resided in my "observer" I was not incented
to shift...my intense experience these past 9 months with my no-name
illness served to put me completely in "participant"...and one of the
purposes of this illness was in fact to release me from "observer"...the
trick of being in the participant was finding the ability to be releaved
from suffering (observer had most likely become my refuge,distancing me
from the pain, during those early years blah blah blah :-))...anyway with
the exception of 2 short periods where I lost fascination with being here I
found peace and acceptance during some pretty nasty physical stuff
including deciding to stay on the earthplane when the opportunity to leave
was compelling, choosing "participation"

I feel like a totally different self which may be merely the feeling of
what pure participation is...I now like Feta cheese which I couldn't
swallow 9 months ago...engaged in exploring this "nu-me" and "nu-me's"
relationship to-from the lens of "participant"

All this said I can't really know what the dialogue means to either you,
Nancy, or you Walter...from my current place of being I am experiencing
your exchange as a male female one compounded by your locus of focus,
Walter, as a therapist, and Nancy, your less than fulfilling experience of
therapy and the seeming incompatibility of expectations about being
here...but that is "my" experience given where I am at the moment...also
given my 25year on-going study of Ken Wilber's Integral Philosophy, which
is driven by his desire to find that which includes to which I resonate, I
see your exchange from my intellect as a confusion of logical
levels...which is not to say "roles"...Walter, I am experiencing your thots
from an intellectual/physical place and Nancy, an emotional/spiritual
place...now those words are all loaded but I am merely attempting to find a
place for me to enter into dialogue...to participate :-)

Blessings,
Judith out to participate in the wonderous sun

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:45:35 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Learning about Online Psychology
In-Reply-To:  <488763d7.2518518b@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

Eric, you wrote:

> Sounds like you have been more active than I.  Even initially, I was advising
> the site owner, rather than being in that role myself.  On the message
> boards, I do a lot of "lurking" and often only comment when I perceive a need
> for a response.  I have enjoyed observing the development of the online
> community.  Many of the members make it a point to remind newcomers that
> there's no substitute for face-to-face communication and support.  I was not
> sure that a recovery community was possible online, but my experience
> suggests that it is.  We have dabbled with the idea of doing research, but it
> wasn't in the budget and generating enough funds to keep us afloat was the
> main focus (and still is).  Hope these comments are helpful.  Would like to
> hear from others about their experiences.

I glanced back over recent posts and saw your post again Eric.  I
am curious now how the personal / professional is interwoven in
this for you Eric?  You "only comment when [you] perceive a need
for a response." -- on what basis do you decide that?

Stephen wrote today that he saw my welcomes as attempts "an
attempt to forge an initial bridge between the fund of interests
here already and the interests of the person new to Psyber-L."  I
think that is right! I was not really conscious of that, I simply
aim at welcoming someone to the list.

I am not sure if or how our recent discussions have impacted on
you Eric, my sense is that there is something that while it may
not feel exactly welcoming it may be involving?


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Sep 1999 00:25:50 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
In-Reply-To:  <37EBA9C2.E04DA2@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

> > Your post addresses a matter that I think relate to the group as
> > a whole.
> >
> > You have a sense of the group moving in a direction characterised
> > by the word role and persona. (Is that summary ok?)
>
> N: No, it's really not ok (with me).  It is doing exactly was I was
> writing about.  It takes about 1/3 of what I said and summaries it
> accurately enough.  But by omitting what I said about the Jung Institute
> and depth psychology, it subtly continues the into impersonality and
> professionalism.  (I didlike that last word because it is used generaly
> in a hieracrchical way to separate 'us' from 'them'. An unhealthy thing
> IMO)

I can see what you mean.  What is happening for me here is that I
was thinking that many of your comments "relate to the group as a
whole." and others relate to me personally... I was removing
myself... (with little success!) from this particular post... I
agree not a good idea. To put it differently, (more
professionally and personally?) :  I don't like being held too
responsible for the groups's life. (Which was my experience of
what you were doing.)

I am open  & interested in going into my personal quirks and my
participation in the personal - professional split.  (Linked here
to the participant - list owner duality and as you and Judith
mentioned to a gender and spiritual dimension as well.) There is
so much going on! (I am a one thing at a time kind of person -
perhaps another factor in the dualities).

In the previous post you say:

|  It may be that at some point you have chosen to move away from the
|  discussion of depth psychology and Jungian psychology in particular.  (I
|  believe Psyber-L is not longer a link from the San Francisco Jung
|  Institute site,  as it was when I picked it up.)

My personal journey - psyche - is not something i have moved away
from - and I bring aspects here.  Our dream discussions I found
useful.  My posts about "Structure and soul" continue that
journey... the discussions were marvelous for me.  I do have a
hesitancy about posting personal stuff... that somehow the list
becomes too much my therapy list...

So there are many things going on for me which might lead to less
than a good balance ...

I really hope that will not hinder the list too much!

I have found much to reflect on in your post... I think it
highlights much of what is ongoing and unfinished personally,
professionally for me for the group! I am pleased Judith and
Stephen have contributed, and I am committed to stay involved -
personally.

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:48:36 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen Calhoun wrote:
>
> Nancy,
>
> I hope Walter will respond to your question, "Is Psyche 'professional' or
> 'human'?" But, I don't see Walter's engagement with people and especially
> new subscribers as being anything but an attempt to forge an initial bridge
> between the fund of interests here already and the interests of the person
> new to Psyber-L. This is a complicated task and also complicated are the
> varieties of interests and the multitude of levels; they may not hold
> together.

N: Exactly.
>
> Ironically, the schism between professional and personal (if you don't mind
> me presuming that professionals are human too,)

M: Well...  I'm not sure that assumption is warranted...  Who knows?
  (Didn't anyone try the automated therapist link I sent?)
> ***
>
> Ahh, but I could have made one word stand in for all of this.
>
> Projection.

N: Glad you didn't.  It would have sounded too 'professional' and
conveyed none of the personal prospective that you well-taken points
did.

  BTW I really don't idealize JungCircle.  I find it too saccharine to
feel quite real.  Though, for whatever reason, it does stay active.

  Thanks for chiming in, Stephen.  I think both your and Judith's posts
helped give
'texture' to the list for the newcomers.

      Nancy

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:48:49 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Nancy,
>
> > > Your post addresses a matter that I think relate to the group as
> > > a whole.
> > >
> > > You have a sense of the group moving in a direction characterised
> > > by the word role and persona. (Is that summary ok?)
> >
> > N: No, it's really not ok (with me).  It is doing exactly was I was
> > writing about.  It takes about 1/3 of what I said and summaries it
> > accurately enough.  But by omitting what I said about the Jung Institute
> > and depth psychology, it subtly continues the into impersonality and
> > professionalism.  (I didlike that last word because it is used generaly
> > in a hieracrchical way to separate 'us' from 'them'. An unhealthy thing
> > IMO)
>
> I can see what you mean.  What is happening for me here is that I
> was thinking that many of your comments "relate to the group as a
> whole." and others relate to me personally... I was removing
> myself... (with little success!) from this particular post... I
> agree not a good idea. To put it differently, (more
> professionally and personally?) :  I don't like being held too
> responsible for the groups's life. (Which was my experience of
> what you were doing.)

N: Well, yes.  It was sorta what I was doing, though I question the 'too
much'.  You have been largely the  only one writing, except for
newcomers...  and it certainly wouldn't be fair to hold them
responsible.
>
> I am open  & interested in going into my personal quirks and my
> participation in the personal - professional split.  (Linked here
> to the participant - list owner duality and as you and Judith
> mentioned to a gender and spiritual dimension as well.) There is
> so much going on! (I am a one thing at a time kind of person -
> perhaps another factor in the dualities).
>
> In the previous post you say:
>
> |  It may be that at some point you have chosen to move away from the
> |  discussion of depth psychology and Jungian psychology in particular.  (I
> |  believe Psyber-L is not longer a link from the San Francisco Jung
> |  Institute site,  as it was when I picked it up.)
>
> My personal journey - psyche - is not something i have moved away
> from - and I bring aspects here.  Our dream discussions I found
> useful.  My posts about "Structure and soul" continue that
> journey... the discussions were marvelous for me.  I do have a
> hesitancy about posting personal stuff... that somehow the list
> becomes too much my therapy list...

N: Huh?  In my (rather too extensive) experience, it seems  to me that
if it is not
involving and/or
a 'therapy list' for you, then it is not likely to be therapy (or
involving) for anyone.
>
> So there are many things going on for me which might lead to less
> than a good balance ...
>
> I really hope that will not hinder the list too much!
>
> I have found much to reflect on in your post... I think it
> highlights much of what is ongoing and unfinished personally,
> professionally for me for the group! I am pleased Judith and
> Stephen have contributed, and I am committed to stay involved -
> personally.

N: Yah, me too.  Still I'm doubtful that we can have a viable list, if
it contains too many 'off the top of the head' participants from those
of us who've been around for a while.  If I were a 'newcomer', it would
make me very wary of revealing much of myself.

  Stephen mentioned the Julienne episode.  My objection to that was that
she went round in the same circle all the time.  She proported to
'reveal' while actually carrying a quarter acre of shrubbery about to
hide behind,  and it was always the same shrubbery.  It needed at least
a sprig of fern or a spray of nandina added every so often, at the very
least.

  Wish I'd been part of the dream group since it isn't even available in
the archives.

  Wonder what Simon's up to?

  My guess is that most of those those who are attracted to therapy as a
profession are more observer than participant to begin with.

  'Nuff' for now, but you done  better this time, Walter.  Thanks,

            Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:49:04 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Judith Buerkel wrote:
>

> All this said I can't really know what the dialogue means to either you,
> Nancy, or you Walter...from my current place of being I am experiencing
> your exchange as a male female one compounded by your locus of focus,

N: Huh?  Because 'tradition'  has  it that females prefer the 'personal'
and mailes
the impersonal?  Of course Jung sorta thought females were 'feeling
types' and males
'thinking types', which hasn't held up well to the 'lense of time'
(particularly in this case where both Walter and I test more 'feeling')

> Walter, as a therapist, and Nancy, your less than fulfilling experience of
> therapy and the seeming incompatibility of expectations about being
> here...but that is "my" experience given where I am at the moment...also
> given my 25year on-going study of Ken Wilber's Integral Philosophy, which
> is driven by his desire to find that which includes to which I resonate, I
> see your exchange from my intellect as a confusion of logical
> levels...

N: Sorry about that.  I hadn't intended to be logical beyond the effort
to incluce
enough sentence structure to communicate.

Judith,  Does your healing progress?  You mention change of attitude,
but not really your physical healing.  Not sure how to take the liking
for feta cheese on the healing scale.

Good to hear from you,

Nancy


>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Sep 1999 22:46:56 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Life in Psyber-L
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy wrote...

>Judith Buerkel wrote:
>>
>
>> All this said I can't really know what the dialogue means to either you,
>> Nancy, or you Walter...from my current place of being I am experiencing
>> your exchange as a male female one compounded by your locus of focus,
>
>N: Huh?  Because 'tradition'  has  it that females prefer the 'personal'
>and mailes
>the impersonal?  Of course Jung sorta thought females were 'feeling
>types' and males
>'thinking types', which hasn't held up well to the 'lense of time'
>(particularly in this case where both Walter and I test more 'feeling')

Well, I wasn't into the Jung descriptors of male and female in terms of
feeling but in a construct used by one of the feminist psychologists whose
name escapes me where she postulates the male psychological construct as
one of seeking separation, dipping into relationship, and the female one of
seeking to stay in continuous relationship...I don't have the data at hand
anymore but it had to do with the need for the son to separate from the
mother while the daughter does not have the same need...I seem to recall
(tho my recall is suspect since my illness) that the psychologist whose
last name starts with a C and I think first name Nancy...anyway I ran into
her work during my adult learning study
>
>> Walter, as a therapist, and Nancy, your less than fulfilling experience of
>> therapy and the seeming incompatibility of expectations about being
>> here...but that is "my" experience given where I am at the moment...also
>> given my 25year on-going study of Ken Wilber's Integral Philosophy, which
>> is driven by his desire to find that which includes to which I resonate, I
>> see your exchange from my intellect as a confusion of logical
>> levels...
>
>N: Sorry about that.  I hadn't intended to be logical beyond the effort
>to incluce
>enough sentence structure to communicate.

I didn't get at what I was sensing, but it has to do with the unalignment
of expectations and unexamined or unarticulated assumptions, or viewing the
"other's" from one's point of view...the reason I am sensitive to this is
because of my interest in teaching adults and the learning philosophy to
which I resonate where the teacher goes to where the student is and looks
from that viewpoint...clearly a value issue for me
>
>Judith,  Does your healing progress?  You mention change of attitude,
>but not really your physical healing.  Not sure how to take the liking
>for feta cheese on the healing scale.

Healing continues with residule imbalances caused by the intensive
antibiotics...the neck healed and I am in Physical therapy twice a week to
loosen scar tissue and deal with the months of muscle atrophy...just as a
point of clarification my self reformulation isn't about "attitude" as I
would use the word...I feel like a different person or better yet feel like
I am myself, scales falling away, seeing things is acuteness, surprised by
responses to things which in the past were different ie: feta cheese being
the most dramatic...it is as if the entire construct which I had lived as
up until now dissolved and something else  or someonw new is emerging...in
a very real sense it feels like death and rebirth...I've experienced
transformation a few times in the past but this experience was beyond
those...before what it seems like is that aspects of my self
reformulated...it could be that the intense physical experience was the
last piece in this cycle of transformation...so now I am in a new cycle
which is my "feta" period...time will reveal itself as always

Blessings,
Judith
>
>Good to hear from you,
>
>Nancy
>
>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:08:21 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      e=mc2
In-Reply-To:  <v04210100b41289086484@[207.54.181.116]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Stephen, Nancy, Judith, all,

Stephen
> Personally feeling about this process of change, I feel the loss of many
> voices, sense that Psyber-L has slipped below the level of critical mass
> with respect to the nature of a group willing and eager to soulfully
> participate together on a day-to-day basis,

I am aware of the loss of voices... somehow I don't have the
grief... I have a fond memory of some spectacular times here...
and muster nostalgia.  At the time it often felt fraught.  I
think the psyche ... and our interpersonal connections (somehow
the two interrelated) are like that... the soulfulness comes with
pain and shards (recalling a word you used once Nancy) of one
kind and another.  I mean throwing cows at each other is soulful
in a way, unless you happen to have one land on you! Almost at
any given time here there have been a few participants compared
to many on the list.

In this very moment I have a sense of depth here...

Nancy... I feel connected to you via our recent (for me somewhat
difficult) conversations.  I was watching my stream of
consciousness over lunch and it had snippets of dialogue about
*what the hell is therapy* in response to your recent post, and
the idea that I do more of it here.

Stephen & Judith... I have not responded (in posts to P-L) but i
have in my experience over the last few days to the things you
have individually raised.

Then there are all the others on the list... *many* familiar
names!

> and I also believe, Psyber-L
> has not completely righted itself after the extended Wilbur-Julienne et al
> episode.

You may be right... whatever it is I have a sense of the very
silence as being a embodiment of psychic energy. There are people
who have left... and there are those who stay...

And there are new people...

So many experiences that *could* be shared... does sharing
experience reveal psyche?

(time to go)


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:56:34 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Evan Morris <evan@EXCLUSIVEBOOKS.CO.ZA>
Subject:      Is there a web site?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Hi

I have been lurking here for a while. Is there an official web site for this
list containing FAQs and rules etc?

Thanks


Evan Morris
evan@exclusivebooks.co.za
+ 27 11 792 2777 (tel)
+ 27 11 792 2711 (fax)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:10:48 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Is there a web site?
In-Reply-To:  <014E5138E613D111BFAA00805F06B07724043A@server.exclusivebooks.co.za>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Evan,

> I have been lurking here for a while. Is there an official web site for this
> list containing FAQs and rules etc?

There is no FAQ as such.  There is a Description and a Welcome file.  There is
also the Psybernet website, with a page for this group:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/psyber-l.htm

The archives of the group are at:

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


Happy browsing!


Walter








__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Sep 1999 19:51:41 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: e=mc2
In-Reply-To:  <6xzwNxdpeXE8y5Fu1XVgyEFKzTmF@4ax.com>
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All,

> (time to go)

Back.

I was of course thinking about Stephen's phrase "critical mass"
and then thought that in addition to mass there are other factors
in the equation - us!

As I wrote in the last post that there *is* soulful depth here...
lets not discount what the psyche is saying here in Psyber-L.  I
have a sense that not honouring what *is* will damage it.

There is also much that can happen here... how can the
dissatisfaction be turned to good use to enhance our group?


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Sep 1999 17:14:28 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: e=mc2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter you wrote:

>All,
>
>> (time to go)
>
>Back.
>
>I was of course thinking about Stephen's phrase "critical mass"
>and then thought that in addition to mass there are other factors
>in the equation - us!
>
>As I wrote in the last post that there *is* soulful depth here...
>lets not discount what the psyche is saying here in Psyber-L.  I
>have a sense that not honouring what *is* will damage it.
>
>There is also much that can happen here... how can the
>dissatisfaction be turned to good use to enhance our group?

I'm not sure how to think about your question, Walter...

what I am confused about is maybe what *soulful depth* is? Does one talk
*about* soulful depth? Is this some sort of implied measuring stick, some
posts measuring up  and some not? Is it an experienced experience? If I
post about my experience of illness which has been what these past 3 years
has been about for me, does that qualify as a post about psyche? Is it the
poetry that often is posted that measures high on the soulful meter?The
Myers Briggs posting information but lower on the soulful meter? And the
questions about computers not making the meter at all?

Seems to me being here continues to be a matter of engagement...while
Stephen describes a daily commitment to a list, I never thot of being here
as a daily commitment...I read all the posts but very often tho interesting
I'm not moved to comment...

All in all I think this time of experience is yet another variation of the
list theme of exploring psyche in psyber space...but then I might not get
it

Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Sep 1999 10:08:29 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: e=mc2
In-Reply-To:  <v01550106b417f617bd30@[207.54.160.133]>
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Judith

Someone said to me the other day you can't define love but you
can measure it.  I took it more as know how much you feel rather
than measure -- much the same thing I guess.

> what I am confused about is maybe what *soulful depth* is? Does one talk
> *about* soulful depth?

I think your very question has it!

> Is this some sort of implied measuring stick, some
> posts measuring up  and some not?

As you say engagement, a sense of connection is part of the
equation :) so the subject matter is irrelevant really.  Thomas
Moore (Care of the Soul etc.) mentions somewhere that he goes
window shopping as a meditation.

> Is it an experienced experience? If I
> post about my experience of illness which has been what these past 3 years
> has been about for me, does that qualify as a post about psyche?

I experience your writing here in that way... I think the word
depth comes in here... you and most of us are able to look
"under" whatever is on the surface.  We see things.

This raises for me again my hesitancy in suggesting (as I did)
that we can do more or better here.  The most beautiful thing
really is to be present here with what is... and when you post or
not, there is a Judith presence here...

Which now brings to mind that I noticed a long silence from you,
Nancy, it seemed like a mont or so.  I was curious and wondered,
but also remained silent with my curiosity.  Now what is "under"
all of that... perhaps we have seen some of that surface in the
recent posts.  For me it is not having fully found my voice here
(and elsewhere of course).  Strange fears which are unconscious
at the time, like "I should not be demanding".  (In my
unconscious I confused curiosity and interest with demanding)


> Is it the
> poetry that often is posted that measures high on the soulful meter?The
> Myers Briggs posting information but lower on the soulful meter? And the
> questions about computers not making the meter at all?

What do you think?  I can't be that specific.  I also think that
we will be different on all of this... that there can be many
conversations at once.  The conversation is chronological as the
posts arrive, but multi-layerd with the Subject line.  I may
engage with one "thread" while simply noting another.

> Seems to me being here continues to be a matter of engagement...while
> Stephen describes a daily commitment to a list, I never thot of being here
> as a daily commitment...I read all the posts but very often tho interesting
> I'm not moved to comment...

It is not definable and not really measurable either in terms of
daily or weekly!  Or even reading all the posts.  I do that too,
and often make a mental note to respond and then other things
intrude.

> All in all I think this time of experience is yet another variation of the
> list theme of exploring psyche in psyber space...but then I might not get
> it

I experience it as you do, but then i might not get it either!

I feel like I know less and less.


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:48:52 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: e=mc2
In-Reply-To:  <v01550106b417f617bd30@[207.54.160.133]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Judith, Walter and all,


Walter>>As I wrote in the last post that there *is*
Walter>>soulful depth here... lets not discount what
Walter>>the psyche is saying here in Psyber-L.  I have
Walter>>a sense that not honouring what *is* will damage it.

How does one honour or not honour what *is*?  What is, is.  What happens
here is what wills itself to happen whether consciously or unconsciously.
One can rail against what is here, one can watch/listen, one can post
agreement, one can post poetry that mirrors or flies tangently to the
doalogue that is present or absent ... all engagement of which the above is
but a brief listing is a soulful honouring IMO.  Even in honouring,
soulfully honouring PSYBER-L the place can be damaged.

Walter>>There is also much that can happen here... how can the
Walter>>dissatisfaction be turned to good use to enhance our group?

Look at the dissatistaction what does it attempt to say about itself, about
the nature of dialogue, relation, the meeting of needs which somehow does
not want to be expressed.  Poke at the dissatisfaction, honour the
dissatisfaction ... don't dismiss it, deny it, repress it, blindly and
quietly turn from it ... or it will turn and bite, ferociously like
*shadow* is known to do.  Obviously I am approaching this from a
particularily Jungian POV (no surprise I suppose).

Judith>what I am confused about is maybe what *soulful depth* is?
Judith>Does one talk Does one talk *about* soulful depth?

Judith, this is indeed confusing.  All *engagement* is soulful (I-Thou).
All discourse isn't soulful nor is discourse needing to be soulful.
Sometimes it has for its purpose the giving of factual information (name of
author or book) which may or may not be in context of I-Thou dialogue.
Sometimes it is simply and I-it
monologue/lecture/informational/journalsitic (pick your own word if none of
these suffices) ... depth = I-Thou engagement as best as I can figure it out.

Judith>Is this some sort of implied measuring stick, some
Judith>posts measuring up  and some not?

I don't think that this was the intended thought expressed.

Judith>All in all I think this time of experience is yet another
Judith>variation of the list theme of exploring psyche in psyber
Judith>space...but then I might not get it

Oh, I think you have it alright :-)  And, I'm glad that you expressed it as
it did bring me into a state of overt engagement rather than the quiet,
listening, reflective stae of engagement that I was within until your post.

still praying for your health
still listening to even the silences

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:05:45 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: e=mc2
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19990929174353.0093bdd0@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Robert,

You wrote:
> How does one honour or not honour what *is*?  What is, is.  What happens
> here is what wills itself to happen whether consciously or unconsciously.
> One can rail against what is here, one can watch/listen, one can post
> agreement, one can post poetry that mirrors or flies tangently to the
> doalogue that is present or absent ... all engagement of which the above is
> but a brief listing is a soulful honouring IMO.

I like what you say here.  I find it enabling... whatever we do
is (or not) is, or can be an engagement.  I have a sense that
Wayne was onto the themes we are exploring now a while back...
I'll dig out the old post.  Engagement ... it seems we are all
placing as having high value... it is the *human* aspect Nancy
has been talking about.  Your engagement comes through loud and
strong, and i have not doubted it... it is perhaps because i have
such an easy conviction about your presence here, and Stephen's
too ... and others!  that I can sense engagement in the silence.

When you say:

> Even in honouring,
> soulfully honouring PSYBER-L the place can be damaged.

that throws me!  In a sort of Judo-ish sort of way... I used to
do Judo and loved being thrown in friendly throw for throw
sessions and then breakfalling.

I have a sense that you are saying *damage* is part of the soul.
Shadow can be here... if there is damage then it to *is*.

I recall something from Jung where he assures therapists that
they really need not worry too much about getting it wrong... the
psyche is resilient, and self healing... my paraphrase you may
know the source. (Memories Dreams and Reflections near the
start?)

I hope you are doing well in your ever changing world Robert!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:41:51 +1200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: old souls
In-Reply-To:  <001101be4bae$7d4ddc80$2add36d1@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I found the post I was thinking about in the other (e=mc2)
thread.

Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>

  Re: old souls
  Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:40:38 -0500

Wayne responds to Stephen on synchronicity; the discussion we are
having on what might be honouring the soulfulness reminded me of
this discussion -- the same paradoxes at work.

> it is a
> very tricky thing tho because if your thought disallows coincidence then
> *that* will *be* the coincidence.

>  >Still, synchronicity is neither willed into the situation or bidded to
> >enter...it just arrives, suddenly and often with a
> shock.]]quite-like-lightning!![[
>
>     the universe for the most part,  *is* a bumbling unwilled oaf of mixed
> intentions indeed.  all prayer/spells/thought manifestations are willed
> occurances that require the pulling of the wool over your own eyes
> temporarily.  evryone who thinks the sun will rise tomorro and plans
> accordingly is pulling the wool over thier eyes since it is still up in the
> air.
> just some babblins', c u l8r


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Sep 1999 10:57:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: old souls
In-Reply-To:  <T9ryNyKLPKNwLVPiM+do43=4VhRQ@4ax.com>
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Walter, all,

it would be very interesting and revealing for all who wish to, to express
just what their own 'take' on *soul* is.

I would ask myself some questions:

What is soul?;

What do I mean if I should say I am experiencing soul?;

What do I mean if I should say I am doing something soulfully?;

What kinds of distinctions am I drawing when I qualify experiences as
having more or less soulfulness?

(etc.)

Is soul a location in the psyche?

Is soul a quality of some other aspect of our being?

(etc.)

Do I relate to soul as a concept or as something beyond the conceptual?

(etc.)

Is soul connected with other stuff; does it have to do at all with how one
relates oneself to their life and the world?

(Yes, a rhetorical interjection,)

***

One general kind of view I do not at all resonate to is the one which
promotes the idea that soul is simply whatever is and thus, conclusively,
everything that happens is soul or soul-full (and anybody who feels
differently). . .

Perhaps, a paradox of soul is that soul is an aspect one minds and 'mines'
and so it would be possible to express what it feels like to mind it
deeply, and to dig beneath soul's 'surface'. (I'm feeling out loud here.)

So, what does a lack of soul seem to be about or feel like?

***

As for your quote from the archives, "the universe for the most part,  *is*
a bumbling unwilled oaf of mixed intentions indeed.  all
prayer/spells/thought manifestations are willed occurances that require the
pulling of the wool over your own eyes temporarily."

Is that a paradox? Is what Wayne writes here true, even?

***

regards, Stephen

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