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To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:12:59 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Nancy's Dream
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 Hello Nancy,

You asked  concerning dreams:

:   Did you mean 'asocial' or 'amoral' (as John Beebe one said of the
: Self.)

I mean 'asocial' -  because they  have no social codes and norms, they are
totally  " wild thinking".

You wrote:

: About dreams, I think it is ok to just
: 'incubate' them also, i.e. hold them in your thoughts without actively
: analysing.  Sometimes something more will come to you.

Yes,  sometimes it is useful to  incubate.  But  most  dreams  refer direct
to  an actual situation at home or work or relationships.  The are so-called
ordinary dreams ( although to my mind all dreams are extraordinary). "Big
dreams"  need  a long  incubation time before  the meaning will  reveal,
sometimes it will happen after many years.
   BTW, why the unconscious is sending  us  "messages",  if  we don't even
open  and decode  them?
Maybe they are not messages,  but  our brain's creative  activity.

Regards
Anita

anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:32:28 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Wecome Donnell
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Donnell, good to have you on board... Here is what you wrote by
way of introduction.  Looks like you are doing interesting
research.  I like your premise that there is something lacking...
there is of course but that might be a "feature" rather than a
"bug".  Freud (our scout - :) had us not looking at each other...
probably as it helped us take the leap into "cyberspace" ... the
images in our mind are important and reveal a different reality
to the ones we can see with our eyes.


Walter

> Hello,
> I am interested in many areas, namely
> the impact  communication via computer
>  is shaping our  "weltenshzaung" or
> World  View.
>
> Also interested in the intrapsychic
> impact on individuals who utilize
> computers, not just for facts/data
> gathering, but for more personal com-
> munication.  May soon being doing a
> study on interviewer-bias which
> is often present with psych-counselor
>  interviews  in-person with diverse
> populations -- how this bias may
> be lessened by interviews/interacts
> via computer instead.  Some  people
> seem convinced using computer bound
>  to be only a  handicap with 'so much
>  lacking'  re:the psychinterviewing pro-
> cess-- but I do not subscribe  to that,
>  and am willingto see it's  its many plus'
> and potential to enhance.
>
> I am interested in all aspects of how
> computers can help heal the planet-
>  which can help a person express him-
> self/ herself.  Intersted in Privacy
>  issues, shyness, and other aspects.
>
> Regards,
> Donnell
> aia@jump.net

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:18:46 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Changes
In-Reply-To:  <37a37647.668190@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello Walter, all,

In reference to my message about the changes close to hand in my life, you
wrote:

>This sound like changes even more significant than those in your
>career.  What does it all mean for you Robert?

Yes, the changes are more significant than that of a career change IMO.
How do I feel/understand these changes, what do they mean to me?  I guess
thay they promise a re-evaluation of relation, particularly in terms of
relation to "self."

>Is this simply a change of living arrangement, or is it
>also a crisis in your marriage?  Or perhaps the resolution of one?

It is simply a change of living arrangement.  I will spend four week nights
in the small house by myself and return to our home for the weekend most of
the time.  The community to which I am going to work is a francophone
community where French is used in shops, on the streets, and at most
community events.  Maureen has no desire to relocate as she does not know
French and would feel totally isolated.

Where does this lead in terms of the marriage?  I am hoping that in the end
it tempers the marriage highlighting the bonds that can survive repetitive
separation.  But, I know that *we* are risking here.  This is a journey
into a way of relation that has no script written for us, no ending that we
can foretell ....... risky ......... yet necessary.

>The way you emphasise HOME... is that anger?

No, it is a *holding on* a maintaining of attachment.  In my mind there is
no doubt where *home* lies.   One place is a house, the other is *home*.

>One of the positives is that it may be easier for you to get to
>your email, perhaps a minor compensation in the midst of larger
>changes.

Yes, I saw this as well.  Perhaps this is not such a *minor* compensation
but a *significant* compensation.  Last time I was away from *home* (the
Calgary experience) e-mail was the connection to home (at least twice a
day, often three or four times a day).  During the Calgary experience, I
maintained a richer connection with JUNG-L and with PSYBER-L and know the
value of these connections.

I am daring the changes knowing that the future is not written in words or
feelings that I can decode at the present.  I know that I *risk* everthing
and that it is necessary to take these risks for my sanity.  Such is the
fire that drives the beast that is me.

regards,

Robert

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:52:07 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Changes
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"Robert G. Longpr" wrote:
>

> I am daring the changes knowing that the future is not written in words or
> feelings that I can decode at the present.  I know that I *risk* everthing
> and that it is necessary to take these risks for my sanity.  Such is the
> fire that drives the beast that is me.
>
N: I appreciate the openness with which you wrestle with Walter's
questions, Robert.
I had wondered the same things, but hesitated to ask.
  Now I would ask if this move will leave you still close enough to your
analyst to continue, and will the new job allow you the mobility and
time?
  I hope so.  It would seem to me important at this juncture.

  Best wishes,   Nancy
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:50:51 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Changes
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19990803065757.00924260@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Robert writes,

"I know that I *risk* everything and that it is necessary to take these
risks for my sanity.  Such is the fire that drives the beast that is me."

What a wonderful way to put it! Thank you.

***

Nancy wonders, "Now I would ask if this move will leave you still close
enough to your analyst to continue, and will the new job allow you the
mobility and time?"

Robert, I have no opinion about the place of an analytic relationship in
your life. I do know life can go very well without such a hook-up. As
Judith might put it, and I do now, your own natural process of insighting
appears to work for you.

In any case, go for it and have fun.

***

with affection,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:17:06 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: Wecome Donnell
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hello donnell heres a good link for u

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/reith_99/default.htm

another good book is Being Digital, by nicholas negroponte [spelling?]

> From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
> To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: [P] Wecome Donnell
> Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:32 AM
>
> Donnell, good to have you on board... Here is what you wrote by
> way of introduction.  Looks like you are doing interesting
> research.  I like your premise that there is something lacking...
> there is of course but that might be a "feature" rather than a
> "bug".  Freud (our scout - :) had us not looking at each other...
> probably as it helped us take the leap into "cyberspace" ... the
> images in our mind are important and reveal a different reality
> to the ones we can see with our eyes.
>
>
> Walter
>
> > Hello,
> > I am interested in many areas, namely
> > the impact  communication via computer
> >  is shaping our  "weltenshzaung" or
> > World  View.
> >
> > Also interested in the intrapsychic
> > impact on individuals who utilize
> > computers, not just for facts/data
> > gathering, but for more personal com-
> > munication.  May soon being doing a
> > study on interviewer-bias which
> > is often present with psych-counselor
> >  interviews  in-person with diverse
> > populations -- how this bias may
> > be lessened by interviews/interacts
> > via computer instead.  Some  people
> > seem convinced using computer bound
> >  to be only a  handicap with 'so much
> >  lacking'  re:the psychinterviewing pro-
> > cess-- but I do not subscribe  to that,
> >  and am willingto see it's  its many plus'
> > and potential to enhance.
> >
> > I am interested in all aspects of how
> > computers can help heal the planet-
> >  which can help a person express him-
> > self/ herself.  Intersted in Privacy
> >  issues, shyness, and other aspects.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Donnell
> > aia@jump.net
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz
> http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
------=_NextPart_000_01BEDDC3.3F775920
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">hello donnell heres a good link for =
u<br><br>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/reith_99/default.=
htm<br><br>another good book is Being Digital, by nicholas negroponte =
[spelling?]<br><br>&gt; From: Walter Logeman &lt;<font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>&gt; To: <font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; Subject: [P] Wecome Donnell<br>&gt; Date: =
Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:32 AM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Donnell, good to have =
you on board... Here is what you wrote by<br>&gt; way of introduction. =
&nbsp;Looks like you are doing interesting<br>&gt; research. &nbsp;I =
like your premise that there is something lacking...<br>&gt; there is of =
course but that might be a &quot;feature&quot; rather than a<br>&gt; =
&quot;bug&quot;. &nbsp;Freud (our scout - :) had us not looking at each =
other...<br>&gt; probably as it helped us take the leap into =
&quot;cyberspace&quot; ... the<br>&gt; images in our mind are important =
and reveal a different reality<br>&gt; to the ones we can see with our =
eyes.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Walter<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; =
Hello,<br>&gt; &gt; I am interested in many areas, namely<br>&gt; &gt; =
the impact &nbsp;communication via computer<br>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;is =
shaping our &nbsp;&quot;weltenshzaung&quot; or<br>&gt; &gt; World =
&nbsp;View.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Also interested in the =
intrapsychic<br>&gt; &gt; impact on individuals who utilize<br>&gt; &gt; =
computers, not just for facts/data<br>&gt; &gt; gathering, but for more =
personal com-<br>&gt; &gt; munication. &nbsp;May soon being doing =
a<br>&gt; &gt; study on interviewer-bias which<br>&gt; &gt; is often =
present with psych-counselor<br>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;interviews =
&nbsp;in-person with diverse<br>&gt; &gt; populations -- how this bias =
may<br>&gt; &gt; be lessened by interviews/interacts<br>&gt; &gt; via =
computer instead. &nbsp;Some &nbsp;people<br>&gt; &gt; seem convinced =
using computer bound<br>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;to be only a &nbsp;handicap with =
'so much<br>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;lacking' &nbsp;re:the psychinterviewing =
pro-<br>&gt; &gt; cess-- but I do not subscribe &nbsp;to that,<br>&gt; =
&gt; &nbsp;and am willingto see it's &nbsp;its many plus'<br>&gt; &gt; =
and potential to enhance.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I am interested in =
all aspects of how<br>&gt; &gt; computers can help heal the =
planet-<br>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;which can help a person express him-<br>&gt; =
&gt; self/ herself. &nbsp;Intersted in Privacy<br>&gt; &gt; =
&nbsp;issues, shyness, and other aspects.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; =
Regards,<br>&gt; &gt; Donnell<br>&gt; &gt; <font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>aia@jump.net</u><font color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; =
__________________________________________________________________<br>&gt=
; Walter Logeman &nbsp;<font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>walter@psybernet.co.nz</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; <font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>http://www.psybernet.co.nz</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
__________________________________________________________________<br>&gt=
; Walter Logeman &nbsp;<font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>walter@psybernet.co.nz</u><font color=3D"#000000"> =
&nbsp;<font color=3D"#FF0000"><u>http://www.psybernet.co.nz</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
____________________________________________________________<br>&gt; =
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe<br>&gt; =
here: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html</u=
><font color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; <br>&gt; </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BEDDC3.3F775920--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:38:08 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Changes
In-Reply-To:  <37A71E37.524A3037@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,

>N: I appreciate the openness with which you wrestle with Walter's
>questions, Robert.
>I had wondered the same things, but hesitated to ask.
>  Now I would ask if this move will leave you still close enough to your
>analyst to continue, and will the new job allow you the mobility and
>time?

I haven't been to my analyst for six months, since February.  I will be
making this journey under my own steam, self-guided.

Robert

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:43:50 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Changes
In-Reply-To:  <v04210100b3cccd4af921@[207.54.181.10]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Stephen,

Your words in response to my post were gratifying.

>"I know that I *risk* everything and that it is necessary to take these
>risks for my sanity.  Such is the fire that drives the beast that is me."
>
>What a wonderful way to put it! Thank you.

I do consider these words of yours as very important and affirming for me.

>Nancy wonders, "Now I would ask if this move will leave you still close
>enough to your analyst to continue, and will the new job allow you the
>mobility and time?"
>
>Robert, I have no opinion about the place of an analytic relationship in
>your life. I do know life can go very well without such a hook-up. As
>Judith might put it, and I do now, your own natural process of insighting
>appears to work for you.

I agree with you Stephen, I am working well with insight and action based
on the natural process of self-monitoring.  And it is interesting to me how
you refer to the journey as going out and having fun, that is precisely how
I have been characterizing it for those who wonder about this in my
face-to-face domaine.

I will have fun.  I will also have all the other emotions and feelings I am
sure.  The ride will be well worth the price of the ticket.

affection returned,

Robert

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:54:02 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Cyberspace hazards
In-Reply-To:  <867743c.24d48eac@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sheryl,

I have come out of a hibernation of sorts.  The last of the painting and
wall-papering have been done and I have begun working on creating materials
for my next career/assignment.  I hope that I can honour you and the others
here with response and with encouragement.

Another of the cyberspace hazards that needs mentioning is that of the pull
to face-to-face interaction.  All too easy is it to abandon the chaos of
f2f for the world of CMC.  Here one can easily let down the guards as one
feels protected in a strange sort of way by the absence of other stimuli.
There are just the words.  Stranger still is how these words let us plumb
such incredible depths in relationship, in communion.

This medium was made for "depth" psychology, analytical psychology.

How is life in Denver?

in friendship,

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:01:35 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         aia <aia@JUMP.NET>
Subject:      Re: Wecome Donnell
Mime-version: 1.0
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Walter,
Thank you very much my friend. Will take a serious
look at the site. The book, I'll try to obtain from
Amazon.com.or locally.

Again thanks for the good direction.

regards,
Donnell
aia@jump.net
****
hello donnell heres a good link for u

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/reith_99/default.htm

another good book is Being Digital, by nicholas negroponte [spelling?]

> From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
> To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: [P] Wecome Donnell
> Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:32 AM
>
> Donnell, good to have you on board... Here is what you wrote by
> way of introduction.  Looks like you are doing interesting
> research.  I like your premise that there is something lacking...
> there is of course but that might be a "feature" rather than a
> "bug".  Freud (our scout - :) had us not looking at each other...
> probably as it helped us take the leap into "cyberspace" ... the
> images in our mind are important and reveal a different reality
> to the ones we can see with our eyes.
>
>
> Walter
>
> > Hello,
> > I am interested in many areas, namely
> > the impact  communication via computer
> >  is shaping our  "weltenshzaung" or
> > World  View.
> >
> > Also interested in the intrapsychic
> > impact on individuals who utilize
> > computers, not just for facts/data
> > gathering, but for more personal com-
> > munication.  May soon being doing a
> > study on interviewer-bias which
> > is often present with psych-counselor
> >  interviews  in-person with diverse
> > populations -- how this bias may
> > be lessened by interviews/interacts
> > via computer instead.  Some  people
> > seem convinced using computer bound
> >  to be only a  handicap with 'so much
> >  lacking'  re:the psychinterviewing pro-
> > cess-- but I do not subscribe  to that,
> >  and am willingto see it's  its many plus'
> > and potential to enhance.
> >
> > I am interested in all aspects of how
> > computers can help heal the planet-
> >  which can help a person express him-
> > self/ herself.  Intersted in Privacy
> >  issues, shyness, and other aspects.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Donnell
> > aia@jump.net
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz
> http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>


--MS_Mac_OE_3016569695_2816006_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [P] Wecome Donnell</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
<BLOCKQUOTE>Walter,<BR>
Thank you very much my friend. Will take a serious<BR>
look at the site. The book, I'll try to obtain from<BR>
Amazon.com.or locally.<BR>
<BR>
Again thanks for the good direction.<BR>
<BR>
regards,<BR>
Donnell<BR>
aia@jump.net<BR>
****<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">hello donnell heres a good link for u<BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/rei=
th_99/default.htm<BR>
</U></FONT><BR>
another good book is Being Digital, by nicholas negroponte [spelling?]<BR>
<BR>
&gt; From: Walter Logeman &lt;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>walter@PSYBERNET.CO.=
NZ</U></FONT>&gt;<BR>
&gt; To: <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM<BR>
</U></FONT>&gt; Subject: [P] Wecome Donnell<BR>
&gt; Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:32 AM<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Donnell, good to have you on board... Here is what you wrote by<BR>
&gt; way of introduction. &nbsp;Looks like you are doing interesting<BR>
&gt; research. &nbsp;I like your premise that there is something lacking...=
<BR>
&gt; there is of course but that might be a &quot;feature&quot; rather than=
 a<BR>
&gt; &quot;bug&quot;. &nbsp;Freud (our scout - :) had us not looking at eac=
h other...<BR>
&gt; probably as it helped us take the leap into &quot;cyberspace&quot; ...=
 the<BR>
&gt; images in our mind are important and reveal a different reality<BR>
&gt; to the ones we can see with our eyes.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Walter<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; &gt; Hello,<BR>
&gt; &gt; I am interested in many areas, namely<BR>
&gt; &gt; the impact &nbsp;communication via computer<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;is shaping our &nbsp;&quot;weltenshzaung&quot; or<BR>
&gt; &gt; World &nbsp;View.<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Also interested in the intrapsychic<BR>
&gt; &gt; impact on individuals who utilize<BR>
&gt; &gt; computers, not just for facts/data<BR>
&gt; &gt; gathering, but for more personal com-<BR>
&gt; &gt; munication. &nbsp;May soon being doing a<BR>
&gt; &gt; study on interviewer-bias which<BR>
&gt; &gt; is often present with psych-counselor<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;interviews &nbsp;in-person with diverse<BR>
&gt; &gt; populations -- how this bias may<BR>
&gt; &gt; be lessened by interviews/interacts<BR>
&gt; &gt; via computer instead. &nbsp;Some &nbsp;people<BR>
&gt; &gt; seem convinced using computer bound<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;to be only a &nbsp;handicap with 'so much<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;lacking' &nbsp;re:the psychinterviewing pro-<BR>
&gt; &gt; cess-- but I do not subscribe &nbsp;to that,<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;and am willingto see it's &nbsp;its many plus'<BR>
&gt; &gt; and potential to enhance.<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; I am interested in all aspects of how<BR>
&gt; &gt; computers can help heal the planet-<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;which can help a person express him-<BR>
&gt; &gt; self/ herself. &nbsp;Intersted in Privacy<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;issues, shyness, and other aspects.<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<BR>
&gt; &gt; Donnell<BR>
&gt; &gt; <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>aia@jump.net<BR>
</U></FONT>&gt; <BR>
&gt; __________________________________________________________________<BR>
&gt; Walter Logeman &nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>walter@psybernet.co.nz<B=
R>
</U></FONT>&gt; <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://www.psybernet.co.nz<BR>
</U></FONT>&gt; <BR>
&gt; __________________________________________________________________<BR>
&gt; Walter Logeman &nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>walter@psybernet.co.nz</=
U></FONT> &nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://www.psybernet.co.nz<BR>
</U></FONT>&gt; <BR>
&gt; ____________________________________________________________<BR>
&gt; Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe<BR>
&gt; here: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://ho=
me.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html<BR>
</U></FONT>&gt; <BR>
&gt; <BR>
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:03:52 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         aia <aia@JUMP.NET>
Subject:      Re: Wecome Donnell
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3016569832_2824236_MIME_Part"

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Wayne,
I meant thanks to you my friend -  I just
realized the post with link and book
from you.

Info looks very promising. Appreciate
the direction and tips.

Regards,
Donnell
aia@jump.net
*****
hello donnell heres a good link for u

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/reith_99/default.htm

another good book is Being Digital, by nicholas negroponte [spelling?]

> From: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
> To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: [P] Wecome Donnell
> Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:32 AM
>
> Donnell, good to have you on board... Here is what you wrote by
> way of introduction.  Looks like you are doing interesting
> research.  I like your premise that there is something lacking...
> there is of course but that might be a "feature" rather than a
> "bug".  Freud (our scout - :) had us not looking at each other...
> probably as it helped us take the leap into "cyberspace" ... the
> images in our mind are important and reveal a different reality
> to the ones we can see with our eyes.
>
>
> Walter
>
> > Hello,
> > I am interested in many areas, namely
> > the impact  communication via computer
> >  is shaping our  "weltenshzaung" or
> > World  View.
> >
> > Also interested in the intrapsychic
> > impact on individuals who utilize
> > computers, not just for facts/data
> > gathering, but for more personal com-
> > munication.  May soon being doing a
> > study on interviewer-bias which
> > is often present with psych-counselor
> >  interviews  in-person with diverse
> > populations -- how this bias may
> > be lessened by interviews/interacts
> > via computer instead.  Some  people
> > seem convinced using computer bound
> >  to be only a  handicap with 'so much
> >  lacking'  re:the psychinterviewing pro-
> > cess-- but I do not subscribe  to that,
> >  and am willingto see it's  its many plus'
> > and potential to enhance.
> >
> > I am interested in all aspects of how
> > computers can help heal the planet-
> >  which can help a person express him-
> > self/ herself.  Intersted in Privacy
> >  issues, shyness, and other aspects.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Donnell
> > aia@jump.net
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz
> http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>


--MS_Mac_OE_3016569832_2824236_MIME_Part
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Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [P] Wecome Donnell</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
<BLOCKQUOTE>Wayne,<BR>
I meant thanks to you my friend - &nbsp;I just <BR>
realized the post with link and book <BR>
from you.<BR>
<BR>
Info looks very promising. Appreciate<BR>
the direction and tips.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
Donnell<BR>
aia@jump.net<BR>
*****<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">hello donnell heres a good link for u<BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/rei=
th_99/default.htm<BR>
</U></FONT><BR>
another good book is Being Digital, by nicholas negroponte [spelling?]<BR>
<BR>
&gt; From: Walter Logeman &lt;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>walter@PSYBERNET.CO.=
NZ</U></FONT>&gt;<BR>
&gt; To: <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM<BR>
</U></FONT>&gt; Subject: [P] Wecome Donnell<BR>
&gt; Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:32 AM<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Donnell, good to have you on board... Here is what you wrote by<BR>
&gt; way of introduction. &nbsp;Looks like you are doing interesting<BR>
&gt; research. &nbsp;I like your premise that there is something lacking...=
<BR>
&gt; there is of course but that might be a &quot;feature&quot; rather than=
 a<BR>
&gt; &quot;bug&quot;. &nbsp;Freud (our scout - :) had us not looking at eac=
h other...<BR>
&gt; probably as it helped us take the leap into &quot;cyberspace&quot; ...=
 the<BR>
&gt; images in our mind are important and reveal a different reality<BR>
&gt; to the ones we can see with our eyes.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Walter<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; &gt; Hello,<BR>
&gt; &gt; I am interested in many areas, namely<BR>
&gt; &gt; the impact &nbsp;communication via computer<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;is shaping our &nbsp;&quot;weltenshzaung&quot; or<BR>
&gt; &gt; World &nbsp;View.<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Also interested in the intrapsychic<BR>
&gt; &gt; impact on individuals who utilize<BR>
&gt; &gt; computers, not just for facts/data<BR>
&gt; &gt; gathering, but for more personal com-<BR>
&gt; &gt; munication. &nbsp;May soon being doing a<BR>
&gt; &gt; study on interviewer-bias which<BR>
&gt; &gt; is often present with psych-counselor<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;interviews &nbsp;in-person with diverse<BR>
&gt; &gt; populations -- how this bias may<BR>
&gt; &gt; be lessened by interviews/interacts<BR>
&gt; &gt; via computer instead. &nbsp;Some &nbsp;people<BR>
&gt; &gt; seem convinced using computer bound<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;to be only a &nbsp;handicap with 'so much<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;lacking' &nbsp;re:the psychinterviewing pro-<BR>
&gt; &gt; cess-- but I do not subscribe &nbsp;to that,<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;and am willingto see it's &nbsp;its many plus'<BR>
&gt; &gt; and potential to enhance.<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; I am interested in all aspects of how<BR>
&gt; &gt; computers can help heal the planet-<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;which can help a person express him-<BR>
&gt; &gt; self/ herself. &nbsp;Intersted in Privacy<BR>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;issues, shyness, and other aspects.<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<BR>
&gt; &gt; Donnell<BR>
&gt; &gt; <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>aia@jump.net<BR>
</U></FONT>&gt; <BR>
&gt; __________________________________________________________________<BR>
&gt; Walter Logeman &nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>walter@psybernet.co.nz<B=
R>
</U></FONT>&gt; <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://www.psybernet.co.nz<BR>
</U></FONT>&gt; <BR>
&gt; __________________________________________________________________<BR>
&gt; Walter Logeman &nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>walter@psybernet.co.nz</=
U></FONT> &nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://www.psybernet.co.nz<BR>
</U></FONT>&gt; <BR>
&gt; ____________________________________________________________<BR>
&gt; Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe<BR>
&gt; here: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://ho=
me.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html<BR>
</U></FONT>&gt; <BR>
&gt; <BR>
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:59:22 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Changes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

"Robert G. Longpr" wrote:
>
> I haven't been to my analyst for six months, since February.  I will be
> making this journey under my own steam, self-guided.
>
> Robert
>

N: Perhaps I phrased my question poorly, Robert.  I am relieved to know
that you are not having to give up the analysis, which I'd thought meant
much to you, Because of the new job.   I am relieved to read that is not
the case.
   Hopefully we are always Self-guided, whether in or out of therapy.
   I wish you well in your new endeavor.
           Nancy
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:20:54 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: Wecome Donnell
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<html><head><title>Re: [P] Wecome Donnell</title></head><BODY =
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:56:52 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Hello Again
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Psyber-folk,

Wow, what a trip this has been. Some very strange things afoot....

First off, thank you Walter for posting my message on the list( from more
than a month ago now). I never did recieve any posts at the new address -
I don;t know why. In fact, I haven't been able to do *anything* via this
list,  again all mysteries to me. I tried to unsubscribe via the web and
resubscribe at the new address address - didn't work. I tried to read the
archives from the web - didn't work. I couldn't remember my LSoft
password, tried to get another one, didn't work, don't know why, all very
very frustrating. I just let everything go for awhile while I calmed down
- went on vacation, came back and started all over again trying to
recover my computer's functions. Last week I was able to recover the
program groups and today finally I got the email program working again
with some glue and paperclips basically. I'm kinda of piggybacking on my
local server with old email software that I brought with me from SF - who
knows it could go down again but for the moment I'm here. What a wierd
time this has been. Incredible amounts of communication difficulties on
every front - if I didn't know better I'd swear Mercury was in
retrograde...at least that';s what my astrolofgy friends say when
communication goes awry. I've never quite had any set of circumstances
all coincide like this - it's been a drag folks. I just downloaded 169
messages -so I'm going to read for awhile but I wanted to respond to them
one by one and Walter's was first in line.

More later.

Whew - this has been *wierd*.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:46:04 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Hello Again
In-Reply-To:  <37AB4C14.58FF@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl,

Hello indeed, good to see you back... I was just thinking about
what might be happening there as i was getting the "error
messages" that i get when mail does not go through to an account.


Mystery solved, at least the mundane aspect of it.  What mercury
has been up to remains beyond my ken.

Looking forward to your posts.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:31:16 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> Incorrect or incomplete address field found and
              ignored.
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      So many fractals...er...messages
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Psyber-folk,

Making my way through so many messages. Still having a little trouble
posting - computer keeps telling me I don't have a server which of course
I do but am not using "it's" software - just another version.
So much talk about fractals..somehow I can't help but think that what
I've just gone through concerning communication was a huge fractal of
itself reflecting over and over again throughout my life. Glad to hear
Judith is getting better and to see Sheryl and Richard participating -
and Anita! - you mentioned Dolores - I still miss Dolores sometimes - her
posts were great. I was a big fan. And Stephen of course - and Simon - I
have to say that as I statred reading all the posts I felt a slight ache
in my chest and I realized that I had really missed all of you and that
many of you - especially those I've interacted with or have been here all
long time are taking on the character of friends for me. I actually felt
like crying to be be back in this mode. Plus I've experienced some
painful stuff around "heart's desire" which I'll talk more about later -
big time communication problem - sort of a core issue arose for me. Hope
someone can tell me whether Mercury has been in retrograde because I
can't explain all the communicative "crashing" that has gone on around
and in and through me. It did start with the computer though and then
many things went downhill from there. I'm still not through all the
messages but wanted to say hello again. So good to be back. :)

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:23:39 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      And what's your sign...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all,
I guess I'lll jump in here - I brought up the astrology piece not knowing
there had been some conversation along those lines...

Sheryl,
I'm a Taurus with Cancer rising and my moon is in...hmmm, I'm not sure
but I think it's Leo with the midheaven at Pices. Does that seem
right...?
It's been awhile. I've never known what to make of astrology but I sure
seem to want to think this latest communication problem had some roots in
something beyond just me although certainly involving all my "stuff".

Alll the best,
Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:15:59 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Psyche and email
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19990803065757.00924260@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
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Robert,

I am replying to your post:

  Re: Changes
  Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:18:46 -0600


I have enjoyed getting a fuller picture of your life unfolding.

Among the immediate life changes you have mentioned you have also
raised the matter of the psyche and email.

I said:
> >One of the positives is that it may be easier for you to get to
> >your email, perhaps a minor compensation in the midst of larger
> >changes.

You replied to my comment:
> Yes, I saw this as well.  Perhaps this is not such a *minor* compensation
> but a *significant* compensation.  Last time I was away from *home* (the
> Calgary experience) e-mail was the connection to home (at least twice a
> day, often three or four times a day).  During the Calgary experience, I
> maintained a richer connection with JUNG-L and with PSYBER-L and know the
> value of these connections.

There is a power in email that continues to influence me, and
that I don't think anyone has yet over-hyped.  Email and the net
as a whole.  It is a peculiar phenomena though.  Kate simply does
not do email.  Perhaps if I moved away from home, but even then,
shed want phone calls. Do you find you can connect with your
family via email?  My son is right into the net, but we do ICQ,
he'll email from time to time, but not like me!

I think it suits my introversion, and also, I like my *pace*, not
only can i write them while in rhythm with my being... but i can
write them at any time that suits me.  I like to think abut
things, mull things over, let things come together in new ways.

In a post to Sheryl you wrote:

  Re: Cyberspace hazards
  Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:54:02 -0600

> This medium was made for "depth" psychology, analytical psychology.

Of course I agree over all with what you say here.  I would like
to explore this further.

I'd want to put the first part like this:

The medium has *inherent* psychological depth.

I was thinking about this all day, while away from the machine...
that the longer I am here the more i think the actual roots of
the medium are psychological; such things as new functions in
chips, new peripherals such as infrared ports,  software entities
such as directories and protocols for communication such as IP.

Think of the current war between AOL and MS over internet direct
messaging, where there is a threat of two separate communication
pools each involving millions of people, or one seamless
interconnection... this might have social and economic news
value, but these crass corporate battles involve something deeply
psychological.

I suppose i am thinking that even the least overtly psychological
communication on the net has a psychological quality, a soulful
quality of its own.  I am finding my self once again in the
territory of "the medium is the message"

I got a card from a friend who is in Washington DC at the moment,
and an email on the same day.  On the postcard, she has written
boldly: Not an e-mail!

I want to explore the bit about "analytical psychology" too.  But
will leave it for another day, apart from a question... are you
thinking in capitalization here... as in the formal legacy of
Jung who called his work Analytical Psychology, as distinct from
Freud's Psychoanalysis.  Robert, and others... what is possible
here, to pick up the question that has been coming up lately in
the area of "online psychotherapy"?

Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Aug 1999 12:42:57 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         aia <aia@JUMP.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche and email
Mime-version: 1.0
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All,
After reading your post(s) I am reminded of a quote:

       "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor
         nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive
         to change".   -Charles Darwin
Enjoy,
L. Donnell
aia@jump.net

> Robert,
>
> I am replying to your post:
>
>   Re: Changes
>   Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:18:46 -0600
>
>
> I have enjoyed getting a fuller picture of your life unfolding.
>
> Among the immediate life changes you have mentioned you have also
> raised the matter of the psyche and email.
>
> I said:
>> >One of the positives is that it may be easier for you to get to
>> >your email, perhaps a minor compensation in the midst of larger
>> >changes.
>
> You replied to my comment:
>> Yes, I saw this as well.  Perhaps this is not such a *minor* compensation
>> but a *significant* compensation.  Last time I was away from *home* (the
>> Calgary experience) e-mail was the connection to home (at least twice a
>> day, often three or four times a day).  During the Calgary experience, I
>> maintained a richer connection with JUNG-L and with PSYBER-L and know the
>> value of these connections.
>
> There is a power in email that continues to influence me, and
> that I don't think anyone has yet over-hyped.  Email and the net
> as a whole.  It is a peculiar phenomena though.  Kate simply does
> not do email.  Perhaps if I moved away from home, but even then,
> shed want phone calls. Do you find you can connect with your
> family via email?  My son is right into the net, but we do ICQ,
> he'll email from time to time, but not like me!
>
> I think it suits my introversion, and also, I like my *pace*, not
> only can i write them while in rhythm with my being... but i can
> write them at any time that suits me.  I like to think abut
> things, mull things over, let things come together in new ways.
>
> In a post to Sheryl you wrote:
>
>   Re: Cyberspace hazards
>   Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:54:02 -0600
>
>> This medium was made for "depth" psychology, analytical psychology.
>
> Of course I agree over all with what you say here.  I would like
> to explore this further.
>
> I'd want to put the first part like this:
>
> The medium has *inherent* psychological depth.
>
> I was thinking about this all day, while away from the machine...
> that the longer I am here the more i think the actual roots of
> the medium are psychological; such things as new functions in
> chips, new peripherals such as infrared ports,  software entities
> such as directories and protocols for communication such as IP.
>
> Think of the current war between AOL and MS over internet direct
> messaging, where there is a threat of two separate communication
> pools each involving millions of people, or one seamless
> interconnection... this might have social and economic news
> value, but these crass corporate battles involve something deeply
> psychological.
>
> I suppose i am thinking that even the least overtly psychological
> communication on the net has a psychological quality, a soulful
> quality of its own.  I am finding my self once again in the
> territory of "the medium is the message"
>
> I got a card from a friend who is in Washington DC at the moment,
> and an email on the same day.  On the postcard, she has written
> boldly: Not an e-mail!
>
> I want to explore the bit about "analytical psychology" too.  But
> will leave it for another day, apart from a question... are you
> thinking in capitalization here... as in the formal legacy of
> Jung who called his work Analytical Psychology, as distinct from
> Freud's Psychoanalysis.  Robert, and others... what is possible
> here, to pick up the question that has been coming up lately in
> the area of "online psychotherapy"?
>
> Walter
> _____________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman
> Counsellor & Psychotherapist
> Harley Chambers
> PO Box 13 543
> Christchurch NZ
> Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
> walter@psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:25:23 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche and email
In-Reply-To:  <199908081742.MAA01088@mail11.jump.net>
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L. Donnell


> After reading your post(s) I am reminded of a quote:
>
>        "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor
>          nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive
>          to change".   -Charles Darwin

hehehe

we were responding to a post called changes...

I think hat the ability to *cooperate* is another factor... and I
am really glad to know this quote from Darwin, it balances out
survival of the fittest!


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:08:59 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         aia <aia@JUMP.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche and email
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

***
Walter, and all:

Yes, 'cooperate' is another factor.

When I go back and read Darwon's quote, the focus on the part, "responsive
to change", I immediately think of at least a  FEW people (chuckle)who do,
indeed respond to change -with a bunch of belly aching;  respond with anger
or total confusion, so on.

Am 'assuming' or would like to believe Darwin actually had semantic s of the
word 'responsive' to mean, responding  positively, naturally evolving with
change, etc.

Lets see.  How many fingers do I need to count the people who 'respond' to
change with a natural 'acceptance', instead of  respond to change by
fighting it??? (more chuckle)
  Donnell
***
>
>
>> After reading your post(s) I am reminded of a quote:
>>
>>        "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor
>>          nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive
>>          to change".   -Charles Darwin
>
> hehehe
>
> we were responding to a post called changes...
>
> I think hat the ability to *cooperate* is another factor... and I
> am really glad to know this quote from Darwin, it balances out
> survival of the fittest!
>
>
> Walter
>
> _____________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman
> Counsellor & Psychotherapist
> Harley Chambers
> PO Box 13 543
> Christchurch NZ
> Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
> walter@psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:44:28 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      What next?
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Forwarded from "'walter@psybernet.co.nz'"
<walter@psybernet.co.nz>,
a post from Research Dept <Research@BMCLLP.COM>, dated Mon, 9 Aug
1999 16:40:44 -0700 ,
with the subject "What next?":

~~~

Walter,
It's Cheryl Foltos again asking if you would post this to the
list -

About 5 hours after I had managed to get my computer up and
running, including the email software, we had a terrific
thunderstorm here - so intense that lightening struck the ground
in the yard next door to me. It grazed a tree and blew up/out
alot of the roots, throwing dirt up into the street and into a
nearby pickup truck parked at the curb. I lost my electric stove,
my TV, and - you guessed it - my computer. Pretty much everyone
on my street lost some electrical appliances, mostly TVs and
VCRs, one refrigerator, one security system, various telephones.
The telephone jack in the back of my house blew off completely
across the yard Two generators in the neighborhood had to be
replaced - one of them directly behind my back fence. The
neighbors where the lightening struck had an electrical socket
blown out of the wall in their bedroom. The thunder was so
intense that our houses shook - first time in my life I've ever
become truly scared during a thunderstorm - and I grew up in the
Midwest where such summer storms are a matter of regular weather.
Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction as they say. By most
accounts this was the most intense storm most people had ever
seen here. The possibly good side to this is that my insurance my
cover the replacement costs of what I lost - after a $500
deductible. But it will be awhile before I'm back on the list
again.

I just wanted to check in with what is the latest obstacle. I'm
just shaking my head....

Cheryl


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Aug 1999 03:50:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What next?
Comments: cc: Research@BMCLLP.COM
In-Reply-To:  <37b1757d.6797669@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl,

What a situation!  What is next might be the Y2K but that will
seem like a piece of cake after this.

> But it will be awhile before I'm back on the list again.

If I can add you by any other address let me know.

Also you can read and write to the list from ANY computer that
has the web and that is online.  I know you had trouble with
that, and there are a couple of password things to negotiate,
once you get there it is easy (getting to there is the thing
though! -- feel free to ask for help right here in the list, as
others may benefit, via email to me if you like.)

> I just wanted to check in with what is the latest obstacle. I'm
> just shaking my head....

Maybe there is some tie in with the god of thunder and the gods
of communication?

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Aug 1999 23:45:17 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: What next?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello all,

I'm  back in Helsinki after a  short vacation and  a language conference,
where I gave a lecture on  the language of dreams. I've  browsed through
about 500 emails.   it was quite a job.  Somebody on this list - maybe
Donnell, a new member, wrote that he is  interested in  how  computers  can
help  in healing work.
I  recommend him and all of you to read www.dreamgate.com/electric-dreams,
the August 1999 issue. There is a report of a dream group held during the
Crisis in Kosovo:
.Richard Wilkerson, the dream group leader and the  ex-member of  the
Psyber-L wrote:
       "In this issue we are offering a full transcript of a dream group
held with a Serbian woman during the Kosovo Crisis.  I feel this group is
such a good example of how dreamwork at a grassroots level is an
international tool of understanding. At the beginning of our dream group,
there were people that immediately left on moral grounds and refused to do
dreamwork "with the enemy". Many of us were very nervous about the
situation. What kinds of projections would we bring to the group process?
Could we get past the media propaganda pouring out from both sides?  For
those who stayed, transformations occurred. It was very difficult to
polarize the political situation and see the Serbian people as a real enemy,
regardless of my feelings toward their leadership and military.  I feel this
reflected a whole cultural attitude that many of us online felt both inside
and outside of dreamsharing. Branka, our Serbian dreamer,  struggled with
the polarization, trying to separate NATO politics from European/American
Culture.  As with all struggles of this nature, nothing is ever very clear
or cleanly separated. As we explore our souls and the souls of our friends
online, this not-so-clean
reality seems the only thing that is clear.  Branka's dream, significantly,
was about a hero's uniform that hung empty in a closet."

Branka's  dream and the  dream-work of the  group   made  such a great
impact on me that  I  used it  as a major  example about  the  international
language of  dreams,  and  how  integrative  the  dream- work  can  be in an
on-line  group.

What next?  Also here in Finland there  have been  heavy  thunderstorms, but
thanks  heaven, my   two computers have been saved  from  damages.
 This  is  only a short   on-line visit, because  my  next  job is to make a
lecture  on  "giving up" in  the  women's  life -  I don't know  what is a
right term in English.  I mean:  " giving  up work, family, love, youth,
children, ego image, world view etc. etc.  W hat  this  all  giving  up
means  to a woman. I'll  give  the lecture  after three weeks in the
women's   autobiographical seminar  during the August full- moon.  The
August  full-moons are special magnificent  in Finland.

Best  to you all
Anita

anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Aug 1999 04:46:08 PDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walterlogeman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      hotmail
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

I have joined with a hotmail address to see if that works in psyber-l...
part of a process of assisting Cheryl to be comnnected again.

Walter


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:36:36 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: hotmail
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

So that works, and I get the post at the Hotmail site as well.

Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:25:28 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Roles Online
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Psyber-Lers

I think of the psyche and our roles as closely interrelated.  The
soul... spirit of a group or a relationship is strongly influence
by who and how we are ... and it is that sense i use the word
role here.

My friend Dan (our Host) and I have been in a conversation about
online roles for years and we are working on a document that
covers this in some depth -- its called Roles Online (working
title)

The paper will cover all the roles involved in creating online
interaction, everything from ownership and design of the system
to the modes of participation. We are not yet at a public version
of the document but are happy to involve interested people even
at this stage. We have set up an online group to assist us in our
creation, and others can come into the writing studio as it were.
You can also see our efforts grow on the web without belonging to
the group.

Collaboration to write such a doc is a self-referential task, we
are writing about the very thing we are doing! I love that.  It
has a section on Copyright which will involve thinking about
intellectual property etc., *including* the copyright of the doc
we are writing. The endeavour is self referential too in that we
will include writing about what we are *doing* : how to move the
discussion in a group into something more concise and accessible.

So this is an invitation to interested people from Psyber-L to
come and have a look at what we are up to, to comment or
contribute.

I'll post the description and joining details in a separate post.

Or you can get to it all at:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/roles/


Walter









__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz


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__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:27:05 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Roles Online
In-Reply-To:  <37c0c997.176300370@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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== Description of this Roles Online Group ==

The purpose of the group is to collaboratively write and maintain
a document on the roles involved in creating, leading and
participating in online groups. The paper has co-authors, Walter
Logeman and Dan Randow dan@groupsense.co.nz, who together are
responsible for what is included in ''Roles Online". We invite
others to join this group and contribute.

The document we are writing will cover how people can be fully
and effectively present in various types of online groups. The
aim is to create a practical document with some reference to
theoretical and philosophical issues.

Upon joining you will receive a welcome message with more details
about the plan and collaboration process we are using to author
the document.

The Roles Online Document and this Roles Online Group are a joint
GroupSense and Psybernet Project.  The list's Administrator and
Host is Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz

To Join Roles Online via Email, send a email to:
join-roles@lists.groupsense.co.nz

In the text please say a few words about yourself and why you
wish to join, this will go to the list by way of introduction.

Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz

Description updated Thursday, 12 August 1999

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:09:58 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      FW: COINET BULLETIN August 9 - Lightning strikes and network
              backbone outages
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

PsyberFolk,
Walter has given me a way to connect to the list while my own
computer is still out - I'm now able to connect to the list through
something called startmail - thank you Walter - I aapreciate
your info - I never knew such a thing was possible as startmail.
I want to forward this message that I just found in my email
messages re: computer safety - especially since I was one of
those with a 56K modem that was affected. The info here is worthwhile
I think since it is thunderstorm weather in alot of the world
right now.

Morelater.
Cheryl
--- Original Message ---
Coinet System Administrator <sysadm@coinet.com> Wrote on
Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:02:31 -0700
 ------------------
Dear Customers,

Lighting strikes and MCI/WorldCom problems are the topic of this
bulletin.

THE DANGERS OF LIGHTNING STRIKES

This past weekend saw some of the most intense lightning we've
seen
here in some time.  Unfortunately, our 56K equipment was damaged
critically by a strike that surged through the digital lines
to the US
West central office.  The equipment was replaced and service
has been
restored.

This just goes to show that even very good protection can fail
when
faced with a full-force electrical surge caused by a lightning
strike.

In addition to the 56K line problem, a few of our analog modems
at
382-5051 went haywire after a strike.  That caused problems unless
you
were dialing into the 33.6K line at 318-1425.  The equipment
wasn't
damaged, however, and service was up Saturday morning.  We're
going to
take some measures to better protect the analog modems so that
doesn't
happen again.

Some customers have called with various problems since the strike.
Many unplugged their computers during the storms but forgot to
unplug
their phone line from the modem, and that is dangerous since
surges
can and do travel through telephone lines and will damage a modem's
sensitive parts, not to mention your health if you happen to
be on the
telephone.  We recommend that you always unplug the telephone
line
from the computer during severe storms, and obviously turn off
the
computer.

MCI/WORLDCOM OUTAGE

MCI/WorldCom experienced a complete shutdown of their frame relay
network this weekend.  Since MCI is a major backbone network
that
serves thousands of customers, many of you may have noticed that
sites
you were trying to connect to were unreachable.

As of this time, it seems that MCI is currently plagued with
intermittent frame relay outages.  No information seems to be
available on their web site, nor have there been any press releases.
The lack of information is a sore point for many ISPs out there,
but
there is little that can be done.  Our traceroute tool at
http://cois.coinet.com/users/cgi/nph-traceroute.cgi may be able
to
assist if you think the MCI outage may be to blame for not being
able
to reach a site.

regards,

Central Oregon Internet




-----
Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html )
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:41:26 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What next?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 8/10/99 2:40:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
anitak@MEGABAUD.FI writes:

> What next?  Also here in Finland there  have been  heavy  thunderstorms, but
>  thanks  heaven, my   two computers have been saved  from  damages.
>   This  is  only a short   on-line visit, because  my  next  job is to make
a
>  lecture  on  "giving up" in  the  women's  life -  I don't know  what is a
>  right term in English.  I mean:  " giving  up work, family, love, youth,
>  children, ego image, world view etc. etc.  W hat  this  all  giving  up
>  means  to a woman.

Anita, when you have a chance, would you write more about this here in
Psyber-L?  "Giving up" is a good term.

I would like to hear your thoughts about this.  I suspect it is a primary
force in a woman's life, not frequently acknowledged or often explored.  Such
as, the giving up of youth and beauty when a woman becomes a mother.  Or, the
giving up of motherhood when her children are old enough, to become....  ?

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:41:37 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Cyberspace hazards... and f2f realities
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert...

In a message dated 8/3/99 6:57:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, you write:

> Another of the cyberspace hazards that needs mentioning is that of the pull
>  to face-to-face interaction.  All too easy is it to abandon the chaos of
>  f2f for the world of CMC.  Here one can easily let down the guards as one
>  feels protected in a strange sort of way by the absence of other stimuli.
>  There are just the words.  Stranger still is how these words let us plumb
>  such incredible depths in relationship, in communion.
>
>  This medium was made for "depth" psychology, analytical psychology.

Yes I agree to all of the above, my eagle friend... although it can be
difficult, I'm finding, now that I am back in a truer f2f world, as opposed
to my own *vacation* from life during my years of school.  Living within the
paradoxes of the depth you speak of while manuevering within f2f reality can
be quite a delicate dance.  Some of the clumsiness I learned dancing in f2f
reality from the past occasionally reasserts itself and I find myself
teetering and stepping on other people's toes at times.

On a less lyrical level, though, I suspect that this medium allows us the
exploration of the psyche far more in terms of the hurts and wounds we have
suffered throughout our lives, on line and off line.  In fact, it is a medium
that almost begs us to do this!  Oh the times I have felt so compelled to say
something to explain this is who I am and this is how I feel!  The anonymity
allowing that, the compelling draw of will I be accepted?

I suspect this medium may be less able, though, to help us move out and on,
beyond our wounds.  To risk communicating that to another can sound so
callous.  How do we communicate warmth and acceptance while gently pushing on
beyond the wounds and pains?  How do we talk about strengths without sounding
like pollyannas?  Do you know yet of the ways?

Can I communicate my belief in another without looking into his or her eyes?
Can words on a screen ever be enough?

>  How is life in Denver?

It is interesting...  what I've written reflects my own dance, for now, in my
f2f world, and trying to bring the depth I've discovered in and through CMC
to it.  It is very difficult most of the time.  But beyond that, I am full of
hope and determination, and still have the insane notion that I will have
something important to give, when the time is right.

How are your changes going?

And also in friendship :)
Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:41:11 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         aia <aia@JUMP.NET>
Subject:      Re: What next?
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

***
Sheryl,
Re:  Anita's Finnish term of women 'giving up' in the womens life.

When I read it ....I think of when American's use the term,
so-and-so "doesn't have a life".  Also, I think of "sacrafices" that
women have to make (real or imagined).

Decades ago there was an old ''saying" in the1950's & '60's when  husbands
really did little to help a working wife;  nor women necessarily expected to
have career, provide $ support.  It's not so applicable today with so many
women chosing to have a career, and now young husband/ fathers more
involved in family life.  But, it went like this:

    "How often do you  hear a man being asked how he "manages  a family
       and a career?"

Perhaps the term she mentioned, is somewhat like American women
referring to the "Second Shift" ?

Then also, it occured to me,the  scores of housewives in the 1970's who
"went on strike" and said, that's it:   I Quit!     One lady was in People
magazine, having made a treehouse in her front yard, where she was
hold up with food, TV, radio, bedding, water, etc. and refused to come
down until her family seriously promised to stop taking her for granted.

I'm wondering from her country of origin, Finland, how big (if any)
gap there is in the awareness of womens roles, womens rights, or what is
expected of women/men..  For instance, many Americans [male and female]
might chuckle if  they read the quip which says:   "A womans place is in the
home and she should go there directly from the office and get to work."
But few American women [I'm guessing] would allow their husbands
to get a big belly laugh or wise crack  that quip.

Perhaps in Finland, 'giving up' means what so many women
prior to the '70's and 80's were assumed they wanted to do..
IE:   Be glad to give up  childhood hopes or dreams for the
future...any  plans once had as a child of ' becoming this'...
or  'doing that' and to concentrate on one  major goal.

Perhaps inFinland,  unless one is wealthy and have a maid  or nanny,
"Anatomy is Destiny".   I know little about Finn culture, so this is
just my interpretation/speculation. I only have an interest in
psycholinguistics, but less real academic  training in that specific area

Just a thought... my interpretation.

Donnell

aia@jump.net
***

> In a message dated 8/10/99 2:40:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> anitak@MEGABAUD.FI writes:
>
>> What next?  Also here in Finland there  have been  heavy  thunderstorms, but
>>  thanks  heaven, my   two computers have been saved  from  damages.
>>   This  is  only a short   on-line visit, because  my  next  job is to make
> a
>>  lecture  on  "giving up" in  the  women's  life -  I don't know  what is a
>>  right term in English.  I mean:  " giving  up work, family, love, youth,
>>  children, ego image, world view etc. etc.  W hat  this  all  giving  up
>>  means  to a woman.
>
> Anita, when you have a chance, would you write more about this here in
> Psyber-L?  "Giving up" is a good term.
>
> I would like to hear your thoughts about this.  I suspect it is a primary
> force in a woman's life, not frequently acknowledged or often explored.  Such
> as, the giving up of youth and beauty when a woman becomes a mother.  Or, the
> giving up of motherhood when her children are old enough, to become....  ?
>
> Sheryl
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:07:43 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: What next?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Donnell  gives  American connotations  for "giving up"

: When I read it ....I think of when American's use the term,
: so-and-so "doesn't have a life".  Also, I think of "sacrafices" that
: women have to make (real or imagined).

There are not such  connotations in  the  Finnish term "luopuminen" =
"giving  up".
The  verb "luopua"   means -  depending on  a context - to abandon, to
renounce, to drop, to relinquish, to desert, to forsake, to withdraw from
something,  to abdicate, to  disengage.
    The concrete, original  meaning of this verb   is to fade.   "The
colours have faded from the material".

I think, that  "giving up" is  not  only the  females' issue. The males,
too,  have to give  up  many things during their  course of life.  They too
get older and will be pensioned some day.  It  may be  a hard  place to
give up work.  "What next", he will  think.  Maybe  the females are more
used to  pass through the sorrow and other  emotions  arising from  giving
up.  But  the males often  fall sick   I have an acquaintance, a male, who
couldn't  give up  his wife,  when  he fell in love with another woman.  And
couldn't  give up  the other woman , either. And then, after two or three
years, he got diabetes.  Maybe there was too much sugar in his life.
To my  experiences there cannot be  new beginnings, no growing  up without
giving up  old  things   A baby, too, must  give up  the mother's breast
some day,   ce la vie!   It is not  always easy to  give up.

As to  the Finnish  culture, it is true that there is  more "machismo" than
in  other Scandinavian countries.  But  the women are   more  qualified
 educated) than  the men in Finland.  No one thinks that  a woman's place
is at home.  The  women do not give up their career, when they  get
children.  There  a women in  a very high office,  for  example  the
parliament's  chairman ( Speaker) is a woman.  The  Finnish women got the
universal vote ( Am. suffrage)  as a second  country in the world -  after
New Zealand!

Sheryl,   more about "giving up"  some  other time, perhaps my own
experiences,  but don't  promise anything.

Cheers
Anita






anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:35:19 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         aia <aia@JUMP.NET>
Subject:      Re: What next?
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Anita,
Thank you so much for your note. It is appreciated.
Although I was not trying to translate the term.
Perhaps I am remembering the original post incorrectly,
but I thought it said something about 'women in Finland'
having meetings to discuss 'giving up'...so next someone
here asked what that meant.

I was  guessing what I imagined it to be...
or what I already perceive it to be here in the US
when I hear it in our context--what it reminds
me of, etc. I connected it to women, only because
I thought the posting said 'women'..I must have
read it incorrectly.

Thank you for your very interesting information
about life in Finland. I especially like your example
of the man with two women in his life, later 'got
diabetes' possible from too much sugar?  I believe
here in America that would be "metaphysical"
interpretation of him? very nice metaphysical
interpretation.

Finland sounds like a very advanced, progressive
country.  It sounds lovely. I find it so interesting
that the women in Finland are more educated than
the men. Does this mean women make more money
than men, also?

Thank you for enlightening and clarifying information
about what sounds like a beautiful country with
beautiful people.

Kind regards,
Donnell

aia@jump.net


----------
>From: Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
>To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>Subject: Re: [P] What next?
>Date: Tue, Aug 17, 1999, 7:07 AM
>

> Donnell  gives  American connotations  for "giving up"
>
> : When I read it ....I think of when American's use the term,
> : so-and-so "doesn't have a life".  Also, I think of "sacrafices" that
> : women have to make (real or imagined).
>
> There are not such  connotations in  the  Finnish term "luopuminen" =
> "giving  up".
> The  verb "luopua"   means -  depending on  a context - to abandon, to
> renounce, to drop, to relinquish, to desert, to forsake, to withdraw from
> something,  to abdicate, to  disengage.
>     The concrete, original  meaning of this verb   is to fade.   "The
> colours have faded from the material".
>
> I think, that  "giving up" is  not  only the  females' issue. The males,
> too,  have to give  up  many things during their  course of life.  They too
> get older and will be pensioned some day.  It  may be  a hard  place to
> give up work.  "What next", he will  think.  Maybe  the females are more
> used to  pass through the sorrow and other  emotions  arising from  giving
> up.  But  the males often  fall sick   I have an acquaintance, a male, who
> couldn't  give up  his wife,  when  he fell in love with another woman.  And
> couldn't  give up  the other woman , either. And then, after two or three
> years, he got diabetes.  Maybe there was too much sugar in his life.
> To my  experiences there cannot be  new beginnings, no growing  up without
> giving up  old  things   A baby, too, must  give up  the mother's breast
> some day,   ce la vie!   It is not  always easy to  give up.
>
> As to  the Finnish  culture, it is true that there is  more "machismo" than
> in  other Scandinavian countries.  But  the women are   more  qualified
>  educated) than  the men in Finland.  No one thinks that  a woman's place
> is at home.  The  women do not give up their career, when they  get
> children.  There  a women in  a very high office,  for  example  the
> parliament's  chairman ( Speaker) is a woman.  The  Finnish women got the
> universal vote ( Am. suffrage)  as a second  country in the world -  after
> New Zealand!
>
> Sheryl,   more about "giving up"  some  other time, perhaps my own
> experiences,  but don't  promise anything.
>
> Cheers
> Anita
>
>
>
>
>
>
> anitak@megabaud.fi
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Aug 1999 07:37:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Structure and soul
Comments: To: group-l@lists.groupsense.co.nz
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Psyber folk, and friends...

Yesterday I went on an Imago Therapy workshop.  I would love a
bit of debriefing and discussion!  Imago is Harville Hendrix's
modality and you can see more at:

 http://www.imagotherapy.com/

I do quit a lot of couple work and have also run couple groups,
and have gained quite a lot from listening to a Hendrix tape, I
have learnt a thing or two from him.  So some elements of Hendrix
have crept into my work.  Useful.  I like a lot of the underlying
ideas, and have had them before i ever came across that tape:

The unconscious chooses our partner.

Marriage is therapy.

I also like his ideas that couple work be highly structured, that
we coach people to relate well and the passion will return.

~~~

The workshop itself was quite well done, and I learnt a lot, it
has stimulated my thinking.  However I am disturbed by it.

The therapy consists of *very* specific "dialogues", each one
facilitated in a uniform manner.  A sort of therapy by numbers
approach.  Funnily enough it is not as bad as it sounds... as I
make it sound.  The principles at work seem to be very beneficial
and I know *I want* to have some of those tools in my work and in
my own relationships.

It reminds me of Scientology however, and when i spoke to Kate
about it she thought of Pirreli (sp) horsemanship... it is
packaged and delivered as a One Way approach, the training is
expensive and never ends!  There are also heaps of products:

http://www.imagotherapy.com/order.asp

There is a belief that the Imago people seem to have that all is
well if one follows the method.  I have done no more than read
the odd Scientology book many years ago, but it has the same
feel... there are specific tools and methods worked out from on
high, and delivered by people in the system. That is not so
different from other therapy modalities, and i think they can all
have this shadow side, however, some don't seem to have such
closed intellectual shops.  Knowledge has more freedom within the
modalities, clients come into contact with a person and less of a
method.

~~~

What is the relationship between structure and the soul?

If structure is at all helpful, then is there also structuring
that is primarily influenced by its own *shadow* ... I think that
is the case here, and I'd like to be able to discriminate more
easily between the two. I feel as if for a few hours last night I
was "converted" ... and feel relief to be out of it already...

~~~

I am aware all this in itself raises personal issues for me.  I
am (at a deep sort of archetypal level) a lost one, who seeks to
*belong* and thus I am vulnerable to such groups, that offer such
saving, and secure structure.


My dreams at the moment are pointing to conflict between
structure and total chaos, and i am woefully stuck between them.

I'd love to hear peoples comment and experiences with such
things, perhaps est, Forums, Amway!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:52:15 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche and email
In-Reply-To:  <37aee6ef.15221324@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Donnell, Walter,

>> After reading your post(s) I am reminded of a quote:
>>
>>        "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor
>>          nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive
>>          to change".   -Charles Darwin

There again, "The ones most responsive to change" could simply be the
lemmings that walk over the cliff because they didn't question, either
individually or collectively, whether change was taking them in a good
direction or not.

Human beings individually, as societies, as a species need to question
change, not just blindly follow where it leads. Especially nowadays when
'change' is so closely linked to the notion of 'technological progress',
which isn't a force of nature that can't be questioned but a political
process embodying power relations that can and do need to be explored and
questioned.


>I think hat the ability to *cooperate* is another factor... and I
>am really glad to know this quote from Darwin, it balances out
>survival of the fittest!
>
>
>Walter

But the ability to cooperate is not in itself a good thing. People can
cooperate on a lie. Isn't that what dysfunctional families and
dysfunctional societies do?

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:53:43 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Structure and soul
In-Reply-To:  <37be1308.4316770@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,

>If structure is at all helpful, then is there also structuring
>that is primarily influenced by its own *shadow* ... I think that
>is the case here, and I'd like to be able to discriminate more
>easily between the two.

Do you mean that shadow is an innate facet of the structuring process, or
that the structuring can be infused with the shadow of those doing the
structuring? Or both?

>I am aware all this in itself raises personal issues for me.  I
>am (at a deep sort of archetypal level) a lost one, who seeks to
>*belong* and thus I am vulnerable to such groups, that offer such
>saving, and secure structure.

Maybe you're only vulnerable if lead unconsciously by the desire (to
belong). If you can ask yourself the question "What do I *want* to believe
in this situation?" then I think you stand more chance of being conscious
of and avoiding or rejecting the manipulations and traps.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:36:03 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Fw: Doping Kids
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

All,

I find this article shocking and disturbing. Just how did things get so
bad? The word 'displacement' comes to mind.

Simon



FEAT DAILY ONLINE NEWSLETTER          Families for Early Autism Treatment
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          "Healing Autism: No Finer a Cause on the Planet"
____________________________________________________________
Doping Kids
Sunday, August 22, 1999

     [Another look at kids and drugs.  From Insight Magazine by Kelly
Patricia O'Meara, June 22, 1999. Thanks to Candace Fellner.  Edited for
space.]
http://www.insightmag.com/

     Just three weeks after Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold went on their
April 20 killing spree at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.,
President Clinton hosted a White House conference on youth violence. The
president declared it a strategy session to seek "the best ideas from people
who can really make a difference: parents and young people, teachers and
religious leaders, law enforcement, gun manufacturers, representatives of
the entertainment industry and those of us here in government."
     There was, however, complete silence from the president when it came to
including representatives from the mental-health community, whom many
believe can provide important insight about the possible connection between
the otherwise seemingly senseless acts of violence being committed by
school-age children and prescription psychotropic drugs such as Ritalin,
Luvox and Prozac.
     There are nearly 6 million children in the United States between the
ages of 6 and 18 taking mind-altering drugs prescribed for alleged mental
illnesses that increasing numbers of mental-health professionals are
questioning.
     Although the list of school-age children who have gone on violent
rampages is growing at a disturbing rate -- and the shootings at Columbine
became a national wake-up call -- few in the mental-health community have
been willing to talk about the possibility that the heavily prescribed drugs
and violence may be linked. Those who try to investigate quickly learn that
virtually all data concerning violence and psychotropic drugs are protected
by the confidentiality provided minors. But in the highly publicized
shootings this spring, information has been made available to the public.
     Prozac has not been approved by the FDA for pediatric use.
     At the top of the list of so-called "mental illnesses" among children
is attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, which is diagnosed
when a child meets six of the 18 criteria described in the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM-IV, published by the American
Psychiatric Association, or APA.
     ADHD was determined by a vote of APA psychiatrists to be a "mental"
illness and added to the DSM-IIIR in 1987. By definition, children with ADHD
exhibit behaviors such as not paying attention in school, not listening when
spoken to directly, failing to follow directions, losing things, being
easily distracted and forgetful, fidgeting with hands or feet, talking
excessively, blurting out answers or having difficulty awaiting turn. The
most common ADHD remedy among pediatricians and representatives of the
mental-health community is, as noted, Ritalin.
     First approved by the FDA in 1955, Ritalin (methylphenidate) had become
widely used for behavioral control by the mid-1960s. It is produced by the
Swiss pharmaceutical company Novartis. According to the Drug Enforcement
Administration, or DEA, the United States buys and uses 90 percent of the
world's Ritalin. A U.N. agency known as the International Narcotics Control
Board, or INCB, reported in 1995 that "10 to 12 percent of all boys between
the ages of 6 and 14 in the U.S. have been diagnosed as having ADD
[attention-deficit disorder, now referred to as ADHD] and are being treated
with methylphenidate."
     But opponents are concerned about evidence they say confirms a close
relationship between use of prescribed psychotropic drugs and subsequent use
of illegal drugs, including cocaine and heroin. While the United States has
spent more than $70 billion on the war on drugs, says Bruce Wiseman,
president of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights, a California-based
organization that investigates violations of human rights by mental-health
practitioners, "if you think the Colombian drug cartel is the biggest drug
dealer in the world, think again. It's your neighborhood psychiatrist ...
putting our kids on the highest level of addictive drugs."
     This complaint is not new and there is a lengthy list of government
agencies connecting the prescribed psychotropic drugs to use of illegal
substances.
     Twenty-eight years ago the World Health Organization, or WHO, concluded
that Ritalin was pharmacologically similar to cocaine in its pattern of
abuse and cited Ritalin as a Schedule II drug -- the most addictive in
medical usage. The Department of Justice followed the WHO by citing Ritalin
in Schedule II of the Controlled Substances Act as having a very high
potential for abuse. As a Schedule II drug, Ritalin joins morphine, opium,
cocaine and the heroin substitute methadone.
     According to a report in the 1995 Archives of General Psychiatry,
"Cocaine is one of the most reinforcing and addicting of the abused drugs
and has pharmacological actions that are very similar to those of Ritalin."
In the same year the DEA also made the Ritalin/cocaine connection, saying,
"It is clear that Ritalin substitutes for cocaine and d-amphetamine in a
number of behavioral paradigms," expressing concern that "one in every 30
Americans between 5 and 19 years old has a prescription for the drug."
     Despite decades of warnings about the potential for abuse of Ritalin,
experts continue to argue that the benefits far outweigh the consequences.
Yet the INCB has reported that "Methylphenidate's [Ritalin] pharmacological
effects are essentially the same as those of amphetamine and
methamphetamine. The abuse of methylphenidate [Ritalin] can lead to
tolerance and severe psychological dependence. Psychotic episodes [and]
violent and bizarre behavior have been reported."
     These are, in fact, some of the same symptoms exhibited by Eric Harris.
David Fassler, a child and adolescent psychiatrist and chairman of the APA
group on Children, Adolescents and Their Families, says he is unaware of any
research to suggest a correlation between the recent cases of violent
behavior in school-age children and the widespread prescription of
psychotropic drugs. Fassler argues that the number of school-age children
suffering from mental illnesses such as depression is "more than earlier
believed and it is important that there be a comprehensive evaluation by a
mental-health clinician trained in this area." He stresses that "treatment
should be multimodal -- not left to medications alone."
     Mike Faenza, president and chief executive officer of the National
Mental Health Association, the country's oldest and largest mental-health
group, notes that "there is little known about how the drugs affect brain
function." Faenza adds that "we do know that a hell of a lot of kids commit
suicide because they aren't getting the help they need. It's irresponsible
not to give them the help just because we don't know what causes the mental
illness."
     Opponents are quick to capitalize on this admission. "There is no such
thing as ADHD," declares Wiseman. "It's not a deficiency of 'speed' that
makes a kid act out. If you look at the criteria listed in the DSM-IV for
ADHD, you'll see that they are taking normal childhood behavior and
literally voting it a mental illness. This is a pseudoscience, entirely
subjective. Unlike medical conditions that are proved scientifically, with
these mental illnesses the only way you know you're better is if the
psychiatrist says you're better. That's not science."
     Pediatric neurologist Fred Baughman not only agrees that there is no
such illness as ADHD, but says: "This is a contrived epidemic, where all 5
million to 6 million children on these drugs are normal. The country's been
led to believe that all painful emotions are a mental illness and the leader
ship of the APA knows very well that they are representing it as a disease
when there is no scientific data to confirm any mental illness."
     Peter Breggin, a psychiatrist and director of the International Center
for the Study of Psychiatry and Psychology and author of Talking Back to
Prozac, Toxic Psychiatry and Talking Back to Ritalin, for years has waged a
war with the APA about what he regards as its cavalier diagnoses of mental
illnesses. "Psychiatry has never been driven by science. They have no
biological or genetic basis for these illnesses and the National Institutes
of Mental Health are totally committed to the pharmacological line." He is
concerned that "there is a great deal of scientific evidence that stimulants
cause brain damage with long-term use, yet there is no evidence that these
mental illnesses, such as ADHD, exist."
     Breggin points out that the National Institutes of Health, or NIH,
admitted as much at their 1998 Consensus Development Conference on the
Diagnosis and Treatment of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder.
Thirty-one individuals were selected by NIH to make scientific presentations
to the panel on ADHD and its treatment. The panel made the following
observations and conclusions: "We don't have an independent, valid test for
ADHD; there are no data to indicate that ADHD is due to a brain malfunction;
existing studies come to conflicting conclusions as to whether use of
psychostimulants increases or de-creases the risk of abuse, and finally
after years of clinical research and experience with ADHD, our knowledge
about the cause or causes of ADHD remains speculative."
     If so, there is little evidence to support a scientific basis for
classifying ADHD as a mental illness. On the other hand, there is an
abundance of evidence that stimulants such as Ritalin can produce symptoms
such as mania, insomnia, hallucinations, hyperactivity, impulsivity and
inattention. And the DEA's list of potential adverse effects of Ritalin
includes psychosis, depression, dizziness, insomnia, nervousness,
irritability and attacks of Tourette's or other tic syndromes.
     While Ritalin is the drug of choice for treating ADHD, other mental
illnesses such as depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder, or OCD, from
which Columbine shooter Harris suffered, are being treated with new SSRI
antidepressants. Harris' autopsy revealed that he had used Luvox
(Fluvoxomine), an SSRI, prior to the shooting spree. And days earlier he had
been rejected by the Marine Corps because he was taking the psychotropic
drug.
     Luvox, a cousin of Prozac, has been approved by the FDA for pediatric
use, although research shows that a small percentage of patients experience
     adverse effects such as mania, bouts of irritability, aggression and
hostility. But many physicians still prescribe it to children.
     More disturbing to those who believe sufficient evidence exists that
prescription psychotropic drugs may play a role in the violence being
carried out by school-age children is the response of physicians to the
issue. Rather than erring on the side of caution by reducing the number of
kids on mind-altering drugs, physicians instead are prescribing psychotropic
drugs even to infants and toddlers. The warning label states that "Ritalin
should not be used in children under 6 years, since safety and efficacy for
this age group has not been established" and "sufficient data on safety and
efficacy of long-term use of Ritalin in children are not yet available."
     A report in the July 1998 issue of the Clinical Psychiatric News
revealed that in Michigan's Medicaid program, 223 children 3 years old or
younger were diagnosed with ADHD as of December 1996. Amazingly, 57 percent
of these children, many of whom are not yet capable of putting together a
complete sentence, were treated with one or more psychotropic drugs
including Ritalin, Prozac, Dexedrine, Aventyl and Syban. Thirty-three
percent were medicated with two or more of these drugs.
     But it is Ritalin that is being prescribed to 6 million American childr
en. Children's Hospital in Washington has been running television
advertisements expressing concern. According to its spokeswoman, Lynn
Cantwell, the ads were part of a series covering many medical issues. "We
wanted to advocate that children get a comprehensive evaluation because we
are finding that children were coming in who were taking Ritalin who
actually did not have ADHD."
     Wiseman has suggested that the only way to gain control of the
situation is to expose widespread "fraudulent diagnoses" of psychiatrists.
"Without the diagnoses, you can't get the drugs," he says. Baughman's answer
isn't too far from Wiseman's. He says, "A big-time class-action lawsuit
needs to be filed."
____________________________________________________________
editor: Lenny Schafer         east coast editor: Catherine Johnson, Ph.D.
schafer@sprynet.com                                        CIJOHN@aol.com
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:42:13 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche and email
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a03b3e46206bbc2@[195.200.13.210]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon,

I am looking at the Subject line: Psyche and email, and am still
thinking in that context as i read your post.  I have been
reflecting a lot on the depth of the responses people have to
email - one of those technological changes you are talking about.




> >> After reading your post(s) I am reminded of a quote:
> >>
> >>        "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor
> >>          nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive
> >>          to change".   -Charles Darwin
>
> There again, "The ones most responsive to change" could simply be the
> lemmings that walk over the cliff because they didn't question, either
> individually or collectively, whether change was taking them in a good
> direction or not.
>
> Human beings individually, as societies, as a species need to question
> change, not just blindly follow where it leads. Especially nowadays when
> 'change' is so closely linked to the notion of 'technological progress',
> which isn't a force of nature that can't be questioned but a political
> process embodying power relations that can and do need to be explored and
> questioned.
>
>
> >I think hat the ability to *cooperate* is another factor... and I
> >am really glad to know this quote from Darwin, it balances out
> >survival of the fittest!
> >
> >
> >Walter
>
> But the ability to cooperate is not in itself a good thing. People can
> cooperate on a lie. Isn't that what dysfunctional families and
> dysfunctional societies do?
>
> Simon
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:20:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Structure and soul
In-Reply-To:  <37be1308.4316770@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, Simon, all,

"Structure(s)" that underlie either therapeutic or learning modalities is,
obviously, a subject area that is front and center for Judith and I in our
work. I began to get into it for the sake of the thread, but, as usual (!)
it turned into an extensive piece, a typical lecture from yours truly, so
it's on hold. Meanwhile I'd like to alternately and with brevity, make a
few suggestions about how I approach an offered mode, (as opposed to the
assumptions and structure that are the foundations of squareONE's modes of
experiential learning design).

***

Here's what I'm alert to:

(1) Working assumptions: what are the general working assumptions made
about human nature and the psyche? What are the implied benefits and cost
of these assumptions? What is their "logic"? Are the assumptions fit
together reasonably, or not?

(2) Dependence/Independence: viewed as a capability, does the mode assume
the capability will be operated at some point independently or is it
presumed it will always be connected to an ongoing support system, external
structure, or 'product line'?

(3) Depth/Shadow/Mystery: Does the presumptive context include a view of
what is unconscious, or hidden or tacit or precluded or mysterious or
unknowable?

(4) Utility: is the mode qualified as being one approach adaptable to
anybody, an adaptable approach adapted to anybody, or is it highly
qualified as to who may or may not be able to take advantage of it's
singular or multiple approaches?

(5) Effectiveness: What's its track record?

(6) Devil's advocacy: What do the nay-sayers, say?

[finally four considerations aimed at revealing the charlatan!]

(7) Unassailability; does the mode allow it's assumptions to be questioned?

(8) Inflation; is the mode posed as the "be all, end all" or "last word" or
answer to any and all problems or challenges it is positioned to engage
with?

(9) Hidden agenda; what are some of things the mode is about that aren't
stated up front? (Best example is any mode which is partly directed by a
merchandising and profit motive and and for which the leaders are not
forthcoming about it.)

(10) Walking the talk; do the 'leaders' practice what they preach?

***

Quite the wringer, right? Any 'rich' mode will reveal itself accordingly,
and any impoverished mode likewise will suffer this wringer accordingly.
Because of the placebo effect or the ways manipulative approaches may
capture the vulnerable, or the broad reach that is effective in a
particular instance, or even due to serendipity, impoverished modes can be
or appear to be quite effective,  but, on the other side of this wringer
I've found a lot of 'modes' to be bereft of a dignified and deep view of
human nature. And, at their worst, corrupted by the very human nature they
are presumed to be able to attend to. . .old story. Even 'Psycho
pharmacology', in some ways that it may be applied (or believed to apply,)
doesn't fair very well when wrung out.

***

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:47:54 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fw: Doping Kids
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a03b3e6e74e06f2@[195.200.10.188]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Simon, all,

This is of interest to me. My partner's 15 yo son has been diagnosed with
ADHD and has been on Ritalin for seven years. He's a great kid. He's also
extremely forgetful, a behavior tied into his supposed disorder. My amateur
opinion is that he has no such disease. His treatment has, evidently,
helped him better concentrate in school. No alternatives to this drug
regimen were suggested; taking Ritalin every day was step one.

It would be interesting to learn which of the adults of my generation
(40-50yo) would have been diagnosed with ADHD had this "industry" existed
back then. Obviously, in the psychiatric framework, such 'mental illnesses'
do not spring up over night, so, the fact is: there must be literally
millions of adults who went through their adolescence untreated and their
lives today are the outcome.

***

>ADHD was determined by a vote of APA psychiatrists to be a "mental"
>illness and added to the DSM-IIIR in 1987.

>     Wiseman has suggested that the only way to gain control of the
>situation is to expose widespread "fraudulent diagnoses" of psychiatrists.
>"Without the diagnoses, you can't get the drugs," he says.

The DSM-IIIR just keeps getting bigger! (Various editions sit on a book
shelf in the next room.) One wonders if what psychiatry has gotten much
better at is both defining symptoms and then casting them outside of
"normal". A boon for drug companies, doctors, and others in a world in
which it is becoming increasingly difficult to point to a normal person.

The DSM is a religious book, and the dark side of our 'religious'
scientism. certainly the so-called behavioral symptoms of ADHD are
demonstrable but only a few persons have suggested, before Ritalin, the
curative regime should include turning off the t.v., turning off the game
gear, turning off the disengagement with one's kids, etc. Alternately, ADHD
may be a category used to punish a certain way of processing the
environment ( a "style") that is coming to the fore in a world for which
keener intuition and refined eros are becoming more necessary.

***

Meanwhile, the high standard of living of a minority is purchased on the
backs of a majority of persons living in brutal, unhealthy poverty. We've
not yet gotten to the point at which selfishness, shortsightedness, and
hubris are found to be, mentally speaking, *not normal*.

***

polemically yours,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:19:32 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Fw: Doping Kids
In-Reply-To:  <v04210101b3e85b38829b@[207.54.160.20]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Stephen,

>It would be interesting to learn which of the adults of my generation
>(40-50yo) would have been diagnosed with ADHD had this "industry" existed
>back then.

I am one of those, who would have been diagnosed ADHD.  for those who know
me as a 50 year old, this is no surprise at all.  In *many* ways, I am stil
ADHD (a little less *h* these days as my body deteriorates with the passing
of optimum physical development.

>Obviously, in the psychiatric framework, such 'mental illnesses'
>do not spring up over night, so, the fact is: there must be literally
>millions of adults who went through their adolescence untreated and their
>lives today are the outcome.

In my opinion, it is not a *mental illness* at all.  It is just another way
of *being* within this world.

>The DSM-IIIR just keeps getting bigger! (Various editions sit on a book
>shelf in the next room.) One wonders if what psychiatry has gotten much
>better at is both defining symptoms and then casting them outside of
>"normal". A boon for drug companies, doctors, and others in a world in
>which it is becoming increasingly difficult to point to a normal person.

In the end, the DSM will contain enough *illnesses*, enough *disorders*
that there will be none that will be able to escape a label of suffering
from a mental disorder.  Makes one think that there is no *norm* just as
there is no *average* human, only unique humans.

>The DSM is a religious book, and the dark side of our 'religious'
>scientism. certainly the so-called behavioral symptoms of ADHD are
>demonstrable but only a few persons have suggested, before Ritalin, the
>curative regime should include turning off the t.v., turning off the game
>gear, turning off the disengagement with one's kids, etc. Alternately, ADHD
>may be a category used to punish a certain way of processing the
>environment ( a "style") that is coming to the fore in a world for which
>keener intuition and refined eros are becoming more necessary.

Ritalin is used to achieve a clientel that can passively sit still so that
all may be on the *same page* in order to allow educators the opportunity
to say with some conviction that they are providing for individual needs
(this being said by an educational administrator/psychotherapist).
Expectations of an easy time, of less resistence as our reward for all the
*shit* that was lived in order to get where we are, the payoff *we deserve
this* is behind much of the attempts to have a clientel that does not press
us too much.

on my way to the office
on my way to administrate

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:00:00 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche and email
In-Reply-To:  <37c46497.42920177@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, all,

>Simon,
>
>I am looking at the Subject line: Psyche and email, and am still
>thinking in that context as i read your post.  I have been
>reflecting a lot on the depth of the responses people have to
>email - one of those technological changes you are talking about.

Your words prompted me to look back through the thread, and I was struck by
the following line from your initial post (referring to the 'messaging
wars' - I notice you framed it in this militaristic metaphorical way):

>these crass corporate battles involve something deeply
>psychological.

There does seem to be a dominant narrative at work in which everything gets
collapsed down into this war or that war - the perennial binary. We had the
Microsoft vs. Netscape 'browser war', now there's the AOL vs. Microsoft
'messaging war', also the ongoing 'battles' between proprietary and open
source (instantiated in Windows vs. Linux), and between top-down and
bottom-up approaches to the evolution of human society (which could be
presented, perhaps simplistically - aren't all binarisms simplistic? - as a
battle between the increasingly virtual power elites and those always
already and increasingly now powerless in the evolving 'global society').
There's a powerful David vs. Goliath resonance to many of these
developments (Microsoft vs. AOL, on the other hand, being more akin to a
battle of the titans - King Kong vs. Godzilla, perhaps!). And underlying
all this is the core notion of struggle.

Lakoff and Johnson in their book 'Metaphors We Live By' write about the
extent to which militaristic metaphors are embedded in our ways of thinking
and expressing ourselves. They argue that human thought processes are
largely metaphorical, and that our dominant metaphors shape how we conceive
of things and, consequently, how we act.

As they say:

"we act according to the way we conceive of things."

A couple or so more quotes:

"The essence of metaphor is understanding and experiencing one kind of
thing in terms of another."

(which requires conceptualisation of similarity - perhaps fractal
self-similarity relates in some way here?)

Also:

"The most fundamental values in a culture will be coherent with the
metaphorical structure of the most fundamental concepts in the culture."

(which begs the question: how is the metaphorical structure determined?)

There's a nice quote contrasting two ways of conceptualising arguments (pp.
4-5):

"Try to imagine a culture where arguments are not viewed in terms of war,
where no one wins or loses, where there is no sense of attacking or
defending, gaining or losing ground. Imagine a culture where an argument is
viewed as a dance, the participants are seen as performers, and the goal is
to perform in a balanced and aesthetically pleasing way. In such a culture,
people would view arguments differently, experience them differently, carry
them out differently, and talk about them differently. But *we* would
probably not view them as arguing at all: they would simply be doing
something different. It would seem strange even to call what they were
doing "arguing." Perhaps the most neutral way of describing this difference
between their culture and ours would be to say that we have a discourse
form structured in terms of battle and they have one structured in terms of
dance."

(and from a meta (phorical) level I suppose these could be viewed as
competing concepts or balancing concepts!)

From this perspective, the 3 Cs - capitalism, corporatism and consumerism -
embody (passive) or enforce (active) certain dominant metaphors in human
culture and society.

I'm not sure if this relates at all to psyche and email (!). There again,
it might be interesting to consider what metaphorical structures email taps
into, or what the relationship might be between metaphorical structures and
the psyche.


Simon

ps. apropos of nothing in particular, Walter, I notice that you quoted a
whole email in your response. I'm not raising a good/bad issue here, just
noticing and commenting because it's unusual for you to do that.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:43:03 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re; Psyche and email
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Psyber-folk,
This is my first post from the work computer "after hours". My
computer is still down and although the "StartMail" system does
work very well, I just don;t have time at work to read, much
less write, and even less to "correspond". But I have come back
to the office tonight to catch up on the mail (only 25 this time!)
and to spend a little time 'contemplating'.
This topic, plus the one about "Structure and Soul" have got
my attention. I agree with whomever, (can't remember exactly
who's said what) that this medium is made for depth.
It also suits my introversion. And my need for contemplation
going hand-in-hand with communication. I would never make a good
Trappist! I like to contemplate, I like to communicate, I like
my solitude and I like to do all of the above at my own pace!
Fussy little bugger! This medium also allows me to 'be myself'
in a protected environment. I mention this because I see some
of my f2f relating being a little more in the 'risk zone' of
late - perhaps because i have a place that i feel 'safe' - that
i can retreat to and still be connected (except of late - thunder
and lightening notwithstanding!) Hmmm...Simon said something
about the ever present binary - good observation.
I will say that being in the office (ie, structure)right now
is having it's effect on how I'm writing here..I feel different
in this 'structure" than I would at home...something to consider..contemplate.
Simon, I very much appreciate your observations.
All the best,
Cheryl

PS
Charles,
Are you ever going to be an active member here again? I remember
appreciating your contributions as well. And Anita,
I can only imagine the August moon in Finland. Is it not also
called the 'Harvest Moon"? I think it is here.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:48:53 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche and Email
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Okay,
Here's an immediate example of what I was just talking about.

In my f2f world it would have been difficult for me to say to
Simon that I appreciated his posts. I probab;ly wouldn't have
done it f2f unless I knew him really really well and maybe not
even then. I also would not have aksed Charles the question I
did because in my f2f life I don;t like to really put out there
what I want very often. I'm embarrassed by my wants. Okay so
now that I've said what I've said and FELT the ensuing wave go
through me, I "may" get used to the feeling of saying those kinds
of things a little and "may' be more willing to do the same in
my f2f
world.

Just a little process observation here.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Aug 1999 04:51:24 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fw: Doping Kids
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I believe all this pharmaceutical augmentation is sending us on the death
spiral away from natural urgencies that have preserved the species until
now.  in this civilized time people have become lazy and just don't
understand that kids are kids,and that they have much more energy than
adults.


"...as a bishop of the Church, I will continue to disseminate the fables of
the Church, but in my private capacity I shall remain a philosopher to the
end."



----------
> From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
> To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: [P] Fw: Doping Kids
> Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 10:47 AM
>
> Simon, all,
>
> This is of interest to me. My partner's 15 yo son has been diagnosed with
> ADHD and has been on Ritalin for seven years. He's a great kid. He's also
> extremely forgetful, a behavior tied into his supposed disorder. My
amateur
> opinion is that he has no such disease. His treatment has, evidently,
> helped him better concentrate in school. No alternatives to this drug
> regimen were suggested; taking Ritalin every day was step one.
>
> It would be interesting to learn which of the adults of my generation
> (40-50yo) would have been diagnosed with ADHD had this "industry" existed
> back then. Obviously, in the psychiatric framework, such 'mental
illnesses'
> do not spring up over night, so, the fact is: there must be literally
> millions of adults who went through their adolescence untreated and their
> lives today are the outcome.
>
> ***
>
> >ADHD was determined by a vote of APA psychiatrists to be a "mental"
> >illness and added to the DSM-IIIR in 1987.
>
> >     Wiseman has suggested that the only way to gain control of the
> >situation is to expose widespread "fraudulent diagnoses" of
psychiatrists.
> >"Without the diagnoses, you can't get the drugs," he says.
>
> The DSM-IIIR just keeps getting bigger! (Various editions sit on a book
> shelf in the next room.) One wonders if what psychiatry has gotten much
> better at is both defining symptoms and then casting them outside of
> "normal". A boon for drug companies, doctors, and others in a world in
> which it is becoming increasingly difficult to point to a normal person.
>
> The DSM is a religious book, and the dark side of our 'religious'
> scientism. certainly the so-called behavioral symptoms of ADHD are
> demonstrable but only a few persons have suggested, before Ritalin, the
> curative regime should include turning off the t.v., turning off the game
> gear, turning off the disengagement with one's kids, etc. Alternately,
ADHD
> may be a category used to punish a certain way of processing the
> environment ( a "style") that is coming to the fore in a world for which
> keener intuition and refined eros are becoming more necessary.
>
> ***
>
> Meanwhile, the high standard of living of a minority is purchased on the
> backs of a majority of persons living in brutal, unhealthy poverty. We've
> not yet gotten to the point at which selfishness, shortsightedness, and
> hubris are found to be, mentally speaking, *not normal*.
>
> ***
>
> polemically yours,
>
> Stephen
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
------=_NextPart_000_01BEEEB5.7B9B0200
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I believe all this pharmaceutical =
augmentation is sending us on the death spiral away from natural =
urgencies that have preserved the species until now. &nbsp;in this =
civilized time people have become lazy and just don't understand that =
kids are kids,and that they have much more energy than =
adults.<br><br><br>&quot;...as a bishop of the Church, I will continue =
to disseminate the fables of<br>the Church, but in my private capacity I =
shall remain a philosopher to =
the<br>end.&quot;<br><br><br><br>----------<br>&gt; From: Stephen =
Calhoun &lt;<font color=3D"#FF0000"><u>hoon@APK.NET</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>&gt; To: <font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; Subject: Re: [P] Fw: Doping Kids<br>&gt; =
Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 10:47 AM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Simon, =
all,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; This is of interest to me. My partner's 15 yo son =
has been diagnosed with<br>&gt; ADHD and has been on Ritalin for seven =
years. He's a great kid. He's also<br>&gt; extremely forgetful, a =
behavior tied into his supposed disorder. My amateur<br>&gt; opinion is =
that he has no such disease. His treatment has, evidently,<br>&gt; =
helped him better concentrate in school. No alternatives to this =
drug<br>&gt; regimen were suggested; taking Ritalin every day was step =
one.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; It would be interesting to learn which of the =
adults of my generation<br>&gt; (40-50yo) would have been diagnosed with =
ADHD had this &quot;industry&quot; existed<br>&gt; back then. Obviously, =
in the psychiatric framework, such 'mental illnesses'<br>&gt; do not =
spring up over night, so, the fact is: there must be literally<br>&gt; =
millions of adults who went through their adolescence untreated and =
their<br>&gt; lives today are the outcome.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; ***<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; &gt;ADHD was determined by a vote of APA psychiatrists to be a =
&quot;mental&quot;<br>&gt; &gt;illness and added to the DSM-IIIR in =
1987.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wiseman has =
suggested that the only way to gain control of the<br>&gt; &gt;situation =
is to expose widespread &quot;fraudulent diagnoses&quot; of =
psychiatrists.<br>&gt; &gt;&quot;Without the diagnoses, you can't get =
the drugs,&quot; he says.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The DSM-IIIR just keeps =
getting bigger! (Various editions sit on a book<br>&gt; shelf in the =
next room.) One wonders if what psychiatry has gotten much<br>&gt; =
better at is both defining symptoms and then casting them outside =
of<br>&gt; &quot;normal&quot;. A boon for drug companies, doctors, and =
others in a world in<br>&gt; which it is becoming increasingly difficult =
to point to a normal person.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The DSM is a religious =
book, and the dark side of our 'religious'<br>&gt; scientism. certainly =
the so-called behavioral symptoms of ADHD are<br>&gt; demonstrable but =
only a few persons have suggested, before Ritalin, the<br>&gt; curative =
regime should include turning off the t.v., turning off the game<br>&gt; =
gear, turning off the disengagement with one's kids, etc. Alternately, =
ADHD<br>&gt; may be a category used to punish a certain way of =
processing the<br>&gt; environment ( a &quot;style&quot;) that is coming =
to the fore in a world for which<br>&gt; keener intuition and refined =
eros are becoming more necessary.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; ***<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
Meanwhile, the high standard of living of a minority is purchased on =
the<br>&gt; backs of a majority of persons living in brutal, unhealthy =
poverty. We've<br>&gt; not yet gotten to the point at which selfishness, =
shortsightedness, and<br>&gt; hubris are found to be, mentally speaking, =
*not normal*.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; ***<br>&gt; <br>&gt; polemically =
yours,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Stephen<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
____________________________________________________________<br>&gt; =
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe<br>&gt; =
here: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html</u=
><font color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; <br>&gt; </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
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____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:46:43 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. & D. Donnell" <aia@JUMP.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fw: Doping Kids
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Wayne, I couldn't agree more.  Too many disorders are being created for the
convenience of the practitioner, not  on what is best for the
client/patient.  I've been around this field since 1968 and seen a lot of
changes and flucuations.

 In response to Stephen wondering of persons in the now 40-50 age group had
such incidences of ADD years ago, I have an interesting contribution
(anecdote) to tell.  I am in my mid-50's. Back around 1978, I noticed that I
had never really functioned  as other people.  In some ways I acknowledged
that I seemed to "intuit" things others could not (a
gift), but was constantly ridiculed as an adult for now keeping my "mind in
the ballgame".  I research the literature at that time.
Up to then, Ritalin was associated only with 'hyperactive kids', and not too
awfully many of them running around, at least not in my circle of educated
friends.  I was a constant Sleepyhead since birth...was under a lot of
pressure to both raise my kids alone as a single mom and hold down  2 jobs,
while going to graduate school.
I had no idea about ADD, much less ADD for adults. I don't think it fits me
now, and don't think it would have been appropriate back then.
Nevertheless, Iwas desparate for something which would make me feel more
awake, "on the ball", etc. Apparently the 'laid back'  sixties had
disappeared, was being replaced by the fast-track near'80's and I found it
hard to do it all. I went
to a neurologist.  Actually, several of them.  I described how I could not
concentrate on a thing, was feeling forced to drop out of school, which I
hated to do...I wanted degree so much.
And each and every physician I spoke to either became angry, thought I was
making it up...or, and this is the important part,
called me a "drug addict".  Now in retrospect, perhaps I was on the verge of
becoming one...at least I was not clear on my intention to get some Ritalin
I had purposefully asked for.  Ijust wanted to stay awake. I asked each
doctor if I could be treated for narcolepsy. I was practically laughed out
of their offices.
Now in 1999, what is irrelevant [for purposes of this post] is what my true
motivation was [attention/sleep disorder, real or
not?] and is moot.  The point is, there was no doctor on earth who I could
find to prescribe it.  Most said, "Now why would  you want to take a drug
meant for hyperactive kids, and not too many kids at that?"   The whole
point I'm making is this:   There was such a "big deal" made out of it.
Contrast to now.  If I [just for the sake of 'testing'] went out and said
the same things -- it's seems to be the 'fad' of late to just
hand out the Ritalin like candy.I'm so glad none of the doctors gave it to
me. Their  not giving it to me was appropriate I believe -- but for the
wrong reasons.
I went on in the 1980's and 1990's  to achieve and accomplish things I never
knew I had in me.  I have several grad school degrees. More importantly I
started on a spiritual path, with meditation.  I discovered on my own,how to
use my creativity
and gifts -- turning symptoms into skills. Now, I have a reputation of being
one of those "genius" people who just 'does' something, but can't explain
exactly how  I did it; or who knows something but was never taught from
another.
Now, I would not trade in my creativity and 'gifts' for all the money in the
world. And to all the people back in the 1970's who
kept saying, "Hey, can't you keep your head  in the ballgame?  -- I notice
that none of them are doing well. They all look old enough to be our parents
age. They are grumpy, negative and bitter.  The "spark" has gone out of
them, leaving only a shell of a person they used to be.  Onthe other hand, I
have been told I look like I'm 38, and they my eyes are lit up with
excitement,
curiousity and humor.  Which fits, because I feel great.
In one of the more popular lay books on the topic of ADD [sorry, forgot
authors name] he says, "I'm not inattentive,
you're boring".  Several years ago when many of my friends (including
colleagues in our field) started going for their
Ritalin for themselves and teenage son -- I kept getting T-shirts printed up
with that motto on it.    I am still trying to explain to them that Ithink
they were fine just the way they were before.
Our  society and many in our field [with our DSM4 as a Religious Book - I
like that phrase,fits perfectly]  are creating disorders to have something
to keep treating.   Too many disorders created for the convenience of the
practitioner, not based on actual functioning or reality of client/patient.
Some in psych/ and allied mental health fields are *so* Dependent on
scounging around and rooting out Pathology (whether its there are not) that
if someone does not have a disorder, the clinician will hunt long engouh
until s/he can dig up one fromthe bowels of the DSM.   About 10 years ago, I
put down my cigarettes on Smoke Out day.  Never picked one up again, never
loked back. Inthe following 18 months Ilost almost 100 pounds ( and kept it
all off to this day).No fad diet. I just 'had a feeling' I could
do it.  When I ran into a colleague inthe field ofpsych/related at a
conference, she did not recognize me. After I said Hi!, you didn't recognize
me -- she asked how I had changed so much, so I relayed my little story.
She proceeded to very extremely
cautious and reluctant to see my achievement/improved health as anything
positive.  She was quite convinced, she told me, that I had 'better watch
out about being anorexic".  [Just for the record, she was/is 85 pounds
overweight]
    Ever ready to pathologize anything which is a gift.?  Not for me.
I look for turning symptoms into skills.  I know how - I teach others how.
And 3/4 of the people eating Ritalin right now will
never believe me, as long as their clinician encourages this fad.
My next soapbox will be what I believe to be a vast over-diagnosis of
everybody and their dog as:  Bipolar.

Just my 2 cents.
d.donnell
 ===========================================================================
=========
----------
From: Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: [P] Fw: Doping Kids
Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999, 3:51 AM



I believe all this pharmaceutical augmentation is sending us on the death
spiral away from natural urgencies that have preserved the species until
now.  in this civilized time people have become lazy and just don't
understand that kids are kids,and that they have much more energy than
adults.


"...as a bishop of the Church, I will continue to disseminate the fables of
the Church, but in my private capacity I shall remain a philosopher to the
end."




>
>

--MS_Mac_OE_3018404803_308921_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [P] Fw: Doping Kids</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
Wayne, I couldn't agree more. &nbsp;Too many disorders are being created fo=
r the convenience of the practitioner, not &nbsp;on what is best for the cli=
ent/patient. &nbsp;I've been around this field since 1968 and seen a lot of =
changes and flucuations.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;In response to Stephen wondering of persons in the now 40-50 age grou=
p had such incidences of ADD years ago, I have an interesting contribution (=
anecdote) to tell. &nbsp;I am in my mid-50's. Back around 1978, I noticed th=
at I had never really functioned &nbsp;as other people. &nbsp;In some ways I=
 acknowledged that I seemed to &quot;intuit&quot; things others could not (a=
<BR>
gift), but was constantly ridiculed as an adult for now keeping my &quot;mi=
nd in the ballgame&quot;. &nbsp;I research the literature at that time.<BR>
Up to then, Ritalin was associated only with 'hyperactive kids', and not to=
o awfully many of them running around, at least not in my circle of educated=
 friends. &nbsp;I was a constant Sleepyhead since birth...was under a lot of=
 pressure to both raise my kids alone as a single mom and hold down &nbsp;2 =
jobs, while going to graduate school.<BR>
I had no idea about ADD, much less ADD for adults. I don't think it fits me=
 now, and don't think it would have been appropriate back then. &nbsp;Nevert=
heless, Iwas desparate for something which would make me feel more awake, &q=
uot;on the ball&quot;, etc. Apparently the 'laid back' &nbsp;sixties had dis=
appeared, was being replaced by the fast-track near'80's and I found it hard=
 to do it all. I went<BR>
to a neurologist. &nbsp;Actually, several of them. &nbsp;I described how I =
could not concentrate on a thing, was feeling forced to drop out of school, =
which I hated to do...I wanted degree so much. <BR>
And each and every physician I spoke to either became angry, thought I was =
making it up...or, and this is the important part,<BR>
called me a &quot;drug addict&quot;. &nbsp;Now in retrospect, perhaps I was=
 on the verge of becoming one...at least I was not clear on my intention to =
get some Ritalin I had purposefully asked for. &nbsp;Ijust wanted to stay aw=
ake. I asked each doctor if I could be treated for narcolepsy. I was practic=
ally laughed out of their offices. &nbsp;<BR>
Now in 1999, what is irrelevant [for purposes of this post] is what my true=
 motivation was [attention/sleep disorder, real or<BR>
not?] and is moot. &nbsp;The point is, there was no doctor on earth who I c=
ould find to prescribe it. &nbsp;Most said, &quot;Now why would &nbsp;you wa=
nt to take a drug meant for hyperactive kids, and not too many kids at that?=
&quot; &nbsp;&nbsp;The whole point I'm making is this: &nbsp;&nbsp;There was=
 such a &quot;big deal&quot; made out of it.<BR>
Contrast to now. &nbsp;If I [just for the sake of 'testing'] went out and s=
aid the same things -- it's seems to be the 'fad' of late to just<BR>
hand out the Ritalin like candy.I'm so glad none of the doctors gave it to =
me. Their &nbsp;not giving it to me was appropriate I believe -- but for the=
 wrong reasons.<BR>
I went on in the 1980's and 1990's &nbsp;to achieve and accomplish things I=
 never knew I had in me. &nbsp;I have several grad school degrees. More impo=
rtantly I started on a spiritual path, with meditation. &nbsp;I discovered o=
n my own,how to use my creativity<BR>
and gifts -- turning symptoms into skills. Now, I have a reputation of bein=
g one of those &quot;genius&quot; people who just 'does' something, but can'=
t explain exactly how &nbsp;I did it; or who knows something but was never t=
aught from another. &nbsp;<BR>
Now, I would not trade in my creativity and 'gifts' for all the money in th=
e world. And to all the people back in the 1970's who<BR>
kept saying, &quot;Hey, can't you keep your head &nbsp;in the ballgame? &nb=
sp;-- I notice that none of them are doing well. They all look old enough to=
 be our parents age. They are grumpy, negative and bitter. &nbsp;The &quot;s=
park&quot; has gone out of them, leaving only a shell of a person they used =
to be. &nbsp;Onthe other hand, I have been told I look like I'm 38, and they=
 my eyes are lit up with excitement,<BR>
curiousity and humor. &nbsp;Which fits, because I feel great.<BR>
In one of the more popular lay books on the topic of ADD [sorry, forgot aut=
hors name] he says, &quot;I'm not inattentive,<BR>
you're boring&quot;. &nbsp;Several years ago when many of my friends (inclu=
ding colleagues in our field) started going for their<BR>
Ritalin for themselves and teenage son -- I kept getting T-shirts printed u=
p with that motto on it. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I am still trying to explain to t=
hem that Ithink they were fine just the way they were before. &nbsp;<BR>
Our &nbsp;society and many in our field [with our DSM4 as a Religious Book =
- I like that phrase,fits perfectly] &nbsp;are creating disorders to have so=
mething to keep treating. &nbsp;&nbsp;Too many disorders created for the con=
venience of the practitioner, not based on actual functioning or reality of =
client/patient.<BR>
Some in psych/ and allied mental health fields are *so* Dependent on scoung=
ing around and rooting out Pathology (whether its there are not) that if som=
eone does not have a disorder, the clinician will hunt long engouh until s/h=
e can dig up one fromthe bowels of the DSM. &nbsp;&nbsp;About 10 years ago, =
I put down my cigarettes on Smoke Out day. &nbsp;Never picked one up again, =
never loked back. Inthe following 18 months Ilost almost 100 pounds ( and ke=
pt it all off to this day).No fad diet. I just 'had a feeling' I could<BR>
do it. &nbsp;When I ran into a colleague inthe field ofpsych/related at a c=
onference, she did not recognize me. After I said Hi!, you didn't recognize =
me -- she asked how I had changed so much, so I relayed my little story. &nb=
sp;She proceeded to very extremely<BR>
cautious and reluctant to see my achievement/improved health as anything po=
sitive. &nbsp;She was quite convinced, she told me, that I had 'better watch=
 out about being anorexic&quot;. &nbsp;[Just for the record, she was/is 85 p=
ounds overweight]<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ever ready to pathologize anything which is a gift.=
? &nbsp;Not for me. <BR>
I look for turning symptoms into skills. &nbsp;I know how - I teach others =
how. &nbsp;And 3/4 of the people eating Ritalin right now will<BR>
never believe me, as long as their clinician encourages this fad.<BR>
My next soapbox will be what I believe to be a vast over-diagnosis of every=
body and their dog as: &nbsp;Bipolar.<BR>
<BR>
Just my 2 cents.<BR>
d.donnell<BR>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>
----------<BR>
From: Wayne Richardson &lt;nori@SOUTHEAST.NET&gt;<BR>
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM<BR>
Subject: Re: [P] Fw: Doping Kids<BR>
Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999, 3:51 AM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I believe all this pharmaceutical augment=
ation is sending us on the death spiral away from natural urgencies that hav=
e preserved the species until now. &nbsp;in this civilized time people have =
become lazy and just don't understand that kids are kids,and that they have =
much more energy than adults.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&quot;...as a bishop of the Church, I will continue to disseminate the fabl=
es of<BR>
the Church, but in my private capacity I shall remain a philosopher to the<=
BR>
end.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; <BR>
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3018404803_308921_MIME_Part--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Aug 1999 00:08:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fw: Doping Kids
MIME-Version: 1.0
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              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BEEF57.260E09C0"
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i think the more gravity of the situation determines how pronounced the
level of exitement is to be reconciled by the awareness. the way the
awareness deals with stress helps to diffuse the gravity of the situation.
i.e. i am extremely happy! i just made my first million on internet stocks!
i'll quit my job!
 i'll sell my house and move to beverly hills!

[then suddenly]

oh no! i just lost everything and i cant pay to have all my stuff shipped
back to where i quit my job! oh no! i guess i'll be a super depressed
homeless guy and sell the last bit of my stuff so i can get some clean
clothes to start a hand to mouth existance as a pauper...

the way the guy deals with stress is what determines his level of
bi-polarity. my point is that in many cases there is a tendancy to belive
that body chemistry is what creates these problems when in fact it is
nurture over nature, resulting in a retroactive sympton that causes the
body chemistry to change to accomodate.i.e. a high level of adreneline
production and lower seratonin levels could be a symptom of someone being a
soldier in an intense and prolonged term of duty.

i am not denying that nature over nuture is applicable in many instances.
but 9 times out of 10 someone is making big bux by prescribing or producing
the medicines to mask symptoms that are rooted in mental approaches to
situations that can be unlearned. the body then gets used to the mind being
at a state of ease then produces less adrenaline and more seratonin so the
soldier can debrief and go to the mall without becoming all ID.
>

------=_NextPart_000_01BEEF57.260E09C0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><title>Re: [P] Fw: Doping Kids</title></head><BODY =
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">i =
think the more gravity of the situation determines how pronounced the =
level of exitement is to be reconciled by the awareness. the way the =
awareness deals with stress helps to diffuse the gravity of the =
situation.<br>i.e. i am extremely happy! i just made my first million on =
internet stocks! <font size=3D2>i'll quit my job!<br><font size=3D2> =
i'll sell my house and move to beverly hills! <br><br>[then =
suddenly]<br><br>oh no! i just lost everything and i cant pay to have =
all my stuff shipped back to where i quit my job! oh no! i guess i'll be =
a super depressed homeless guy and sell the last bit of my stuff so i =
can get some clean clothes to start a hand to mouth existance as a =
pauper...<br> <br>the way the guy deals with stress is what determines =
his level of bi-polarity. my point is that in many cases there is a =
tendancy to belive that body chemistry is what creates these problems =
when in fact it is nurture over nature, resulting in a retroactive =
sympton that causes the body chemistry to change to accomodate.i.e. a =
high level of adreneline production and lower seratonin levels could be =
a symptom of someone being a soldier in an intense and prolonged term of =
duty.<br><br>i am not denying that nature over nuture is applicable in =
many instances. but 9 times out of 10 someone is making big bux by =
prescribing or producing the medicines to mask symptoms that are rooted =
in mental approaches to situations that can be unlearned. the body then =
gets used to the mind being at a state of ease then produces less =
adrenaline and more seratonin so the soldier can debrief and go to the =
mall without becoming all ID.</p>
<p><font size=3D3>&gt; </p>
<p><font size=3D2><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BEEF57.260E09C0--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Aug 1999 00:27:47 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. & D. Donnell" <aia@JUMP.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fw: Doping Kids
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
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Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit


Wayne,
Yeah.  No kidding!
Couldn't have said it better myself.

donna donnell
aia@jump.net

----------
From: Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: [P] Fw: Doping Kids
Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999, 11:08 PM



i think the more gravity of the situation determines how pronounced the
level of exitement is to be reconciled by the awareness. the way the
awareness deals with stress helps to diffuse the gravity of the situation.
i.e. i am extremely happy! i just made my first million on internet stocks!
i'll quit my job!
 i'll sell my house and move to beverly hills!

[then suddenly]

oh no! i just lost everything and i cant pay to have all my stuff shipped
back to where i quit my job! oh no! i guess i'll be a super depressed
homeless guy and sell the last bit of my stuff so i can get some clean
clothes to start a hand to mouth existance as a pauper...

the way the guy deals with stress is what determines his level of
bi-polarity. my point is that in many cases there is a tendancy to belive
that body chemistry is what creates these problems when in fact it is
nurture over nature, resulting in a retroactive sympton that causes the body
chemistry to change to accomodate.i.e. a high level of adreneline production
and lower seratonin levels could be a symptom of someone being a soldier in
an intense and prolonged term of duty.

i am not denying that nature over nuture is applicable in many instances.
but 9 times out of 10 someone is making big bux by prescribing or producing
the medicines to mask symptoms that are rooted in mental approaches to
situations that can be unlearned. the body then gets used to the mind being
at a state of ease then produces less adrenaline and more seratonin so the
soldier can debrief and go to the mall without becoming all ID.

>




--MS_Mac_OE_3018472067_416077_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [P] Fw: Doping Kids</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
<BR>
Wayne,<BR>
Yeah. &nbsp;No kidding!<BR>
Couldn't have said it better myself. &nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
donna donnell<BR>
aia@jump.net<BR>
<BR>
----------<BR>
From: Wayne Richardson &lt;nori@SOUTHEAST.NET&gt;<BR>
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM<BR>
Subject: Re: [P] Fw: Doping Kids<BR>
Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999, 11:08 PM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">i think the more gravity of the situation=
 determines how pronounced the level of exitement is to be reconciled by the=
 awareness. the way the awareness deals with stress helps to diffuse the gra=
vity of the situation.<BR>
i.e. i am extremely happy! i just made my first million on internet stocks!=
 i'll quit my job!<BR>
&nbsp;i'll sell my house and move to beverly hills! <BR>
<BR>
[then suddenly]<BR>
<BR>
oh no! i just lost everything and i cant pay to have all my stuff shipped b=
ack to where i quit my job! oh no! i guess i'll be a super depressed homeles=
s guy and sell the last bit of my stuff so i can get some clean clothes to s=
tart a hand to mouth existance as a pauper...<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
the way the guy deals with stress is what determines his level of bi-polari=
ty. my point is that in many cases there is a tendancy to belive that body c=
hemistry is what creates these problems when in fact it is nurture over natu=
re, resulting in a retroactive sympton that causes the body chemistry to cha=
nge to accomodate.i.e. a high level of adreneline production and lower serat=
onin levels could be a symptom of someone being a soldier in an intense and =
prolonged term of duty.<BR>
<BR>
i am not denying that nature over nuture is applicable in many instances. b=
ut 9 times out of 10 someone is making big bux by prescribing or producing t=
he medicines to mask symptoms that are rooted in mental approaches to situat=
ions that can be unlearned. the body then gets used to the mind being at a s=
tate of ease then produces less adrenaline and more seratonin so the soldier=
 can debrief and go to the mall without becoming all ID.</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<BR>
&gt; <BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3018472067_416077_MIME_Part--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:32:30 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Structure and soul
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a02b3e4561fef3c@[195.200.13.210]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon

I am appreciating the discussion (have had a quick scan through),
but have been somewhat late in getting back to this as both Kate
& I have colds and flu and this is getting in the way of my life!


> >If structure is at all helpful, then is there also structuring
> >that is primarily influenced by its own *shadow* ... I think that
> >is the case here, and I'd like to be able to discriminate more
> >easily between the two.
>
> Do you mean that shadow is an innate facet of the structuring process, or
> that the structuring can be infused with the shadow of those doing the
> structuring? Or both?

Both, I think. Not that all structure is shadow stuff, but I
think more firmly than when i wrote the above that structuring
can be easily "influenced by its own *shadow*".  I have had a
conversation about this I found very helpful.  The rhetorical
question was put to me:  If it is the truth, does it matter who
speaks it?  I experienced a flash of excitement at the answer:
Yes, the Devil can speak the truth, he is the god of light. This
has helped me get to the point where I can say that I like some
of the Imago teaching but that I do not like the spirit of the
organisation, at all!

This ties in with the structure - shadow, as i think it is the
all encompassing structuring that leads to the cultishness of the
organisation, that makes for the unpleasant spirit. It is not
structuring in the way a canvas for a painting creates a
possibility for creativity.


> >I am aware all this in itself raises personal issues for me.  I
> >am (at a deep sort of archetypal level) a lost one, who seeks to
> >*belong* and thus I am vulnerable to such groups, that offer such
> >saving, and secure structure.
>
> Maybe you're only vulnerable if lead unconsciously by the desire (to
> belong). If you can ask yourself the question "What do I *want* to believe
> in this situation?" then I think you stand more chance of being conscious
> of and avoiding or rejecting the manipulations and traps.

I think that I am heading direction of not being led by that
unconscious desire.

Are you thinking that "What I *want* to believe in this
situation" is the trap?  I think it is. I *want* to believe that
this is a glorious breakthrough... On this occasion I did drift
into that belief momentarily, and then out of is just as quickly.
I recognise the moment of abandonment of my critical judgment.  I
am aware that I have done that in the past too, I become blind to
what I wish I did not see.

This discussion has led me back to thinking about Stephen's
questions in the area of the "eternal atmosphere". I cam up with,
after Stephen gently pared it down:

  Re: Happiness
  Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:59:29 -0500

:: I will love my lunch,
::
:: I want to be absorbed in writing, and then taking a rest from that.
:: The smell... anachronistically is that of freshly sharpened pencils.
::
:: I get all of it in our lovely holiday house in the bush...

In such moments i belong to my self and can retain my judgment.

Thanks Simon, eager to get to the next posts, however I need to
sleep!


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:53:18 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Scheduled Downtime for Server Upgrade
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Forwarded by Walter from all-request@home.ease.lsoft.com, a post
from bparker@LSOFT.COM (Ben Parker), dated Fri, 27 Aug 1999
09:36:37 -0600, with the subject "IMPORTANT Notice!  Scheduled
Downtime for Server Upgrade!":

~~~

L-Soft is in the process of moving the EASE-HOME server to a new
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During this time you will not be able to access your list and no
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normal traffic will resume when the new server is restored.  As a
List Owner, you may wish to notify your subscribers.  We regret
any inconvenience.

L-Soft Support Staff




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:35:56 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Structure and soul
In-Reply-To:  <v04210100b3e85898e448@[207.54.181.27]>
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Stephen,

> "Structure(s)" that underlie either therapeutic or learning modalities is,
> obviously, a subject area that is front and center for Judith and I in our
> work.

Are you developing specific structured activities?  Interesting.


> I began to get into it for the sake of the thread, but, as usual (!)
> it turned into an extensive piece, a typical lecture from yours truly, so
> it's on hold. Meanwhile I'd like to alternately and with brevity, make a
> few suggestions about how I approach an offered mode, (as opposed to the
> assumptions and structure that are the foundations of squareONE's modes of
> experiential learning design).

Your "wringer" below is interesting... do you have a write up of
your "squareONE's modes of experiential learning design", a link?


I find the whole idea of ... squareONE's modes of experiential
learning design ... or any *organisation's* experiential learning
design fascinating.  Imago certainly have this down to a tee... I
imagine people like http://www.emyth.com/ E-Myth Academy do as
well.  They both have the feel of Scientology to me...

How is that different from the modalities of psychotherapy, which
are not really academic disciplines.  They are also modes of
experiential learning, with high elements of design.

I have a yearning and urge to need the difference clarified...
Let me make use of your approach...


> ***
>
> Here's what I'm alert to:
>
> (1) Working assumptions: what are the general working assumptions made
> about human nature and the psyche? What are the implied benefits and cost
> of these assumptions? What is their "logic"? Are the assumptions fit
> together reasonably, or not?

The logic fits all too well I'd think.  There is often a genius
who has marvelously compelling works, that are consistent...

Jung, Freud, Marx, Mao ... and Moreno, Ron L Hubbard of
Scientology and Hendrix of Imago...

In these cases the approach to the psyche is more important to me
than the logic ... none of the above are too bad IMO they all
have some approach to the depths... Marx for example on the
*dialectics* inherent in nature, comes very close to the Jungian
ideas of reciprocity, both give some tribute to "things
transforming into their opposite".

I think I have the problem with the organisational implementation
rather than the ideas...

Actually if the ideas don't appeal then there is no dilemma for
me at all.

So yes , this is an important gate in the wringing process.


> (2) Dependence/Independence: viewed as a capability, does the mode assume
> the capability will be operated at some point independently or is it
> presumed it will always be connected to an ongoing support system, external
> structure, or 'product line'?

Lovely point.

I find most espouse independence and create dependence.  My 15
years or so of going to regular psychodrama training is my
experience of something like that ... many of my contemporary
trainees still do that, and go to annual conferences as well.
When I looked at the Imago manual there were dozens of courses...
never ending supply of new skills to learn.

However... it does take a long time to learn profoundly new ways
of being.  Also regular contact with peers is needed.

I still find it hard to use this as a definitive gate.


> (3) Depth/Shadow/Mystery: Does the presumptive context include a view of
> what is unconscious, or hidden or tacit or precluded or mysterious or
> unknowable?

Hmmm usually they do... is that a good thing or a bad thing?  God
moves in mysterious ways.  Seems like an ok slogan to me.
Sometimes there is something peculiar, that is not subject to the
usual scrutiny... Bhagwan's 84 Rolls Royces as well as a few
mysterious deaths.  Sudden unexplained elevation of certain
favored individuals to positions of leadership outside of the
usual channels.  Questioning might invoke the presence of deeper
hidden forces, known only to the few.

> (4) Utility: is the mode qualified as being one approach adaptable to
> anybody, an adaptable approach adapted to anybody, or is it highly
> qualified as to who may or may not be able to take advantage of it's
> singular or multiple approaches?

In the case of Imago the Dialogues are designed to work with
anyone!  I think they do.  They have a slogan:  One
pre-condition: Commitment.  They take a couple turning up
together for a session as enough commitment.

For the *training* they have very high entry level standards...
now that appeals to me.  I think that if one had a relationship
in trouble, that going to an Imago qualified couple counsellor
one would be assured of something very useful.

Yet functionality does not make for a good spirit.  (CF
McDonalds)

> (5) Effectiveness: What's its track record?

as above

> (6) Devil's advocacy: What do the nay-sayers, say?
>
> [finally four considerations aimed at revealing the charlatan!]

In the case of Imago I'd like to meet up with some!  is there a
Judas somewhere?

There are often apostates around when it comes to modalities... I
guess the tighter the cult the more anti the apostates.  Moonies
etc.

There can be opposition to things that is not to be trusted
though... for example in the discussion of *medication* in the
other thread... it is easy for the medical profession and the
pharmacological profession to sow FUD ... fear uncertainty and
doubt.  They have PR firms that specialise in that... deviation
from the norm takes *courage* under these conditions.

> (7) Unassailability; does the mode allow it's assumptions to be questioned?

In Psychodrama there are certain things that follow a very strict
path.  For example:  after one person has completed a
psychodrama, there is a sharing phase.  This should always
happen, it is not "assailable" as it is part of the safety of the
process.  During this phase participants are "directed" to speak
about their own process, not analyse the person who did the work.


If I am training people in this method I would teach this as very
basis stuff... it can be questioned, but it is not something that
is up for grabs, or to be decided by each person... that is part
of the *experiential learning design*.

Is questioning a committed Freudian different from questioning a
committed Maoist... they have a central committee, and a method
as outsiders we will never change their minds.

> (8) Inflation; is the mode posed as the "be all, end all" or "last word" or
> answer to any and all problems or challenges it is positioned to engage
> with?

For many Jungians Jung is... and that makes sense in a way.
Edinger thought he was to the next Millennium what Jesus was to
the last two.

I guess this is more in the eyes of the beholder.

Some movements do not preach they are One Way, but somehow thy
have a bunch of followers who do.  Some create the conditions for
that more than others.  I have a sense Imago does this... I feel
its pull... though i react to it.

> (9) Hidden agenda; what are some of things the mode is about that aren't
> stated up front? (Best example is any mode which is partly directed by a
> merchandising and profit motive and and for which the leaders are not
> forthcoming about it.)

This a big one, if there is a *company* behind it that is very
different to there being an association...


> (10) Walking the talk; do the 'leaders' practice what they preach?

Especially the top guru...


> And, at their worst, corrupted by the very human nature they
> are presumed to be able to attend to. . .old story.

That is not as scary as something that is corrupt even before
human nature gets to it :)

Interesting to respond to your thoughts Stephen.  I know i have
gone on a bit long!

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Aug 1999 10:46:12 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      squareONE
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,
I'm going to jump in here...Stephen will give a different response which
BTW is part of the power of our design...each of us has a very different
process of being which models *difference* for participants...here's an
excerpt from your questions to Stephen...remember as you read I am not
familiar with the references you mentioned however, I am assuming an agenda
by them which says "this is our way"...you obviously have are unaligned
with anyone who says  *THE way*

You say:

<I find the whole idea of ... squareONE's modes of experiential
learning design ... or any *organisation's* experiential learning
design fascinating.  Imago certainly have this down to a tee... I
imagine people like http://www.emyth.com/ E-Myth Academy do as
well.  They both have the feel of Scientology to me...>

Because if I may these are unaligned with your beingness...these don't
resonnate to your basic assumptions and inf act sound as if the unalignment
reveals seomthing about your experience with cult which as I remember
wasn't a good experience, but a good experiencial learning

<How is that different from the modalities of psychotherapy, which
are not really academic disciplines.  They are also modes of
experiential learning, with high elements of design.

First of all modalities of psychotherapy have assumptions and you as a
practioner use your chosen modality, I am assuming because this modality
resonnated with your own beingness and your journey and thus the
assumptions align with you on some level which are underlying the design,
this modality which resonnates to your beingness, puts a client into that
modality...the client may or may not resonnate to the modality, may or may
not be aware that there are modalities..my question is does the therapist
in the beginning speak to the differnt modalities and the choice that a
client needs to make based on the basic assumptions...or if the modality
isn't working, does the therapist say this, or is the assumption that the
modality can assist everyone (squareONE is not for everyone and we state
that)...it is not a question of *high elements of design*, of course, the
modality has these and if one examines Scientology there probably are *high
elements of design* as well tho I assume there are assumptions underlying
your use of the word *high*...these may feel manipulative to you but not to
me...I assume participants are where they are suppose to be based on the
individualcollective journey they are taking

<I have a yearning and urge to need the difference clarified...
Let me make use of your approach...>

the basic tenet of our experiencial model is creating an opportunity to
enter into an experience which may be different from one's
consciousunconscious process for personal development to uncover an aha
which is personal...well, you might say that's what I do however,...keep in
mind that Stephen and I are not content providers per se, we do not engage
the indivudal content of the participant, our design engages the individual
with their own content (the baic assumption is "you know")..

our content is embedded in the process or IS the process and seeks to
reveal to each participant hisher process, first to say there is a process
at work one may not be aware of it...the other assumption is that we as the
delivery system have no idea what one's next aha is in one's journey ...our
process is designed to reveal the *next piece* for one...this assumes
everyone is unique in their development (do not read *psychological"
development) as well as their process and our process stimulates the
emergence of the *next piece*...this process allows for all to bring their
individual process and benefit through some learning (aha)...it is an open
system process, so the spiritual seekers can sit together with the *suits*
and each hold their question...we seek to sensitize one to one's own
process, first to become aware that there is a personal process and then to
begin to learn how that personal process is at work in one's life but we
leave finding this connection to the participant...the tools we design
stimulate emergence of personal knowing, reinforcing that the participant
*knows*...

An other assumption underlying our design is that *knowing*...this is one
of the highest leverage points to personal transformation...I may know how
to get to toronto but I do not know what your next step is, I may know what
A next step is, but the participant needs to have the experience of
learning through their *own* knowing...which in our society here in the US
embraces experts and credentials and other forms of external
validations...doesn't mean expertice isn't valuable but our assumption is
that the participant is the final arbitrator of *knowing* so our process
gives the participant *permission* to know, validates this knowing...now
this assumption is going to be a problem for some and therefore we are not
apprpriate for them

So for example one participant might be having a work crisis while another
is seeking a deeper meaning thru spiritually...doesn't matter to us...plus,
and this is very important for me, this is about learning, it is framed as
learning not healing...if healing is the *next piece* the person will get
something from our process which illuminates something...and the person
dealing with a very real work issue will get something, probably different,
but relevent...this means everyone leaves our process with something
regardless of their belief systems

My reason for this distinction is that our culture here in the US is
obsessed with "healing" and no surprise most of the people in therapy are
women and no surprise when personal growth is framed as "healing" most men
here in the US avoid it like the proverbial plague, why would anyone want
to allow oneself to be defined as sick...here in the US it is a
stigma...and if we frame our reason for being on the earth plane as
"healing" then by default people make the illogical leap and say *I* need
to heal thereby defining themselves as sick...instead of having an *aspect*
of self which is out of alignment...I know that men resist therapy because
of this illogic and very importantly some people doen't need therapy...plus
people then put off their lives until they are healed which could take many
lifetimes...so I say to people: what are you doing while you are healing
that aspect...hopefully engaging life joyfully and (Stephen's passion)
playfully and (mine) with a sense of humor

When a person becomes aware of hisher process which includes the basic
assumption of what one is doing here on earth,  then one can make choices
about that process...so it is important to know the creation story one is
embracing, the unexamined assumptions around one's beliefs, one's beliefs,
and how these may be at work in the *process* they use to navigate their
life,...so I can embrace both the mainstream medical profession AND my
spiritual practice AND the healers but not dreams because I'm a tracker not
a dreamer in the Shamanic world, my process superordinate is
exploration...open ended

squareONE is different than psychotherapy because it *isn't*
psychotherapy...psychotherapy can be part of one's process or be one's
process as in Jungian, Cognitive, Freudian, etc therapy, and a person might
choose therapy but it is important to know that each is a process with
often very different assumptions which may or may not resonnate...

My son has a process and he is aware of his process (Montessori and I
taught him from the beginning that he alone knows what is correct for him,
I may given advice but he decides not me...he is vital and healthy and
psychologically fit (according to those tests they give)...he is engaged in
living a satisfying life on the earth...he is happy, his fulcrum of being
is happy, if he gets out of alignment with *happy* he figures it out and
takes action...he has taught me alot about *happy*...being in his field in
the early days *tuned* me, attuned me, to what *happy* was because no one
around me resonnated that...I learned it from being in his presence...which
is another aspect of our design...Stephen and I have no agenda for people
other than to explore the tools and see what emerges...however, being in
our field tunes people...so there is an aspect of the *unseen* we are very
aware of and must have integrity around...we have to keep it *clean* at all
times

And most of all it is fun to engage in the tools...so the feedback says

Well, this is disorganized, but my cross lateralization lost something in
the health experience

Blessings to all,
Judith

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:08:39 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: squareONE
In-Reply-To:  <v01550106b3eeaa413c45@[207.54.181.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith

Good to hear from you,

> Walter,
> I'm going to jump in here...Stephen will give a different response which
> BTW is part of the power of our design...each of us has a very different
> process of being which models *difference* for participants...

That sounds good to me.

> here's an
> excerpt from your questions to Stephen...remember as you read I am not
> familiar with the references you mentioned however, I am assuming an agenda
> by them which says "this is our way"...you obviously have are unaligned
> with anyone who says  *THE way*

You are right in that the examples I offer are ONE way in that
they offer specific methods and processes, that seem universally
applicable.  I think the processes often "work wonders" and so
they foster that belief that there is one way.

I think I am unaligned with the cults and the born again
approaches, AND also with shoddy anything goes, unthought out
muddles!  I am trying to find some way of being where i feel OK,
and right now that is hard... this stuff hits me hard...

I think it mirrors something quite drastic in my own psyche ... a
Logos Eros conflict or... Mother Father thing???


> You say:
>
> <I find the whole idea of ... squareONE's modes of experiential
> learning design ... or any *organisation's* experiential learning
> design fascinating.  Imago certainly have this down to a tee... I
> imagine people like http://www.emyth.com/ E-Myth Academy do as
> well.  They both have the feel of Scientology to me...>

I'd say that!  Now that I read it here I hope that neither you or
Stephen took it that I have any judgment of *your* experiential
learning designs.  From knowing you two here I have no hint of
anything like that, in fact I get the opposite impression.

> Because if I may these are unaligned with your beingness...these don't
> resonnate to your basic assumptions and inf act sound as if the unalignment
> reveals seomthing about your experience with cult which as I remember
> wasn't a good experience, but a good experiencial learning

Yes.  It has been helping me to distinguish the spirit of an
organisation from its teaching.

[snipped: most of your lucid description of the squareONE process
you teach with Stephen -- I'd encourage anyone who missed it the
first time to go back to Judith's post to get a feel of the
teaching.]

I am drawn to what you say.  Makes sense and I can see how it
applies to various contexts... modalities in general, my own
psychotherapy practice, squareONE.

I think you have understood my awkward phrase "high elements of
design" ... assumptions and some specific sequences of behaviour,
related to a theoretical framework that make up the modality.
The medical psychiatric model is like that as are all modalities.
I mistrust that one as it can be applied very mechanistically.
It is mostly in the application that my mistrust comes in... the
medical training will often succeed in implanting an unhelpful
spirit.

I particularly like that the process is so open to any content
that there is no need to call it healing, as healing may or may
not be the *next step* for a person.



> My reason for this distinction is that our culture here in the US is
> obsessed with "healing" and no surprise most of the people in therapy are
> women and no surprise when personal growth is framed as "healing" most men
> here in the US avoid it like the proverbial plague, why would anyone want
> to allow oneself to be defined as sick...here in the US it is a
> stigma...and if we frame our reason for being on the earth plane as
> "healing" then by default people make the illogical leap and say *I* need
> to heal thereby defining themselves as sick...instead of having an *aspect*
> of self which is out of alignment...I know that men resist therapy because
> of this illogic and very importantly some people doen't need therapy...plus
> people then put off their lives until they are healed which could take many
> lifetimes...so I say to people: what are you doing while you are healing
> that aspect...hopefully engaging life joyfully and (Stephen's passion)
> playfully and (mine) with a sense of humor

I couldn't snip that bit... I am right with you on that... I hate
it that my profession of *psychotherapy* is so linked with
sickness ... I don't believe in mental sickness or health or
healing.  One of the things about this group... Psyber-L and
Psybernet is that it has enabled much talk, thought, play and
exploration around the psyche, without it being at all close to
the mental illness frameworks.

As an aside the Imago people talk of *healing* and in making use
of their structured dialogues I have reframed it... I just
checked how i put it, and it is still not right... I'll be
putting it on the web soon.  The difficulty I am having with it
is to what extent to acknowledge the source.  I am not sure what
the legal position is, and I have made the structure my own to a
degree.

This brings me to what might be another point to add to Stephen's
wringer...

Is the material, the tool, the process available under an open
licence?  I like the idea that we have a non-proprietry alphabet
for example and I'd like all our intellectual tools to be like
that. The GNU General Public Licence is such a brilliant step in
the right direction -- deserves a thread of its own here...

> When a person becomes aware of hisher process which includes the basic
> assumption of what one is doing here on earth,  then one can make choices
> about that process...so it is important to know the creation story one is
> embracing, the unexamined assumptions around one's beliefs, one's beliefs,
> and how these may be at work in the *process* they use to navigate their
> life

That makes sense... I'd sign up for a process here :)

> ,...so I can embrace both the mainstream medical profession AND my
> spiritual practice AND the healers but not dreams because I'm a tracker not
> a dreamer in the Shamanic world, my process superordinate is
> exploration...open ended

Really, you can do all that but NOT dreams?  I find that really
hard to grasp!  I must be a dreamer... I am a dreamer!  Does that
really contrast that sharply with tracker?  trackerdreamer?  What
is a tracker?  I am a dreamer AND an explorer... only happy with
one foot in the unknown.

[snipped: more, with reluctance]

> squareONE is different than psychotherapy because it *isn't*
> psychotherapy...psychotherapy can be part of one's process or be one's
> process as in Jungian, Cognitive, Freudian, etc therapy, and a person might
> choose therapy but it is important to know that each is a process with
> often very different assumptions which may or may not resonnate...

I can see that.  In addition to psychotherapy I do two other
things... couple work and consulting for online interaction.  In
the area of *couple work* there is more common ground with
something like squareONE and with Imago... I am teaching couples
a process and not so interested in the content.

Strangely enough, in my work with Dan
<http://www.groupsense.co.nz>  I am involved with developing
processes that can be repeated in a variety of contexts.  For
example... Planning, Designing, Launching, Hosting, Host support
and Training for online interaction groups.  The content is
different in each case but I have worked closely with Dan as this
sequence, and the steps in each one of them have been clearly
spelled out.  They will work with a mailing list like this or the
online equivalent of the olympic games.

> Well, this is disorganized, but my cross lateralization lost something in
> the health experience

You sound very well indeed! I don't know why you all it
disorganised, you got that muddled :)

> Blessings to all,
> Judith

And you,

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:06:17 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Montessori
In-Reply-To:  <v01550106b3eeaa413c45@[207.54.181.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,

I am picking this snippet out from your last post:

  squareONE
  Sun, 29 Aug 1999 10:46:12 -0400

So I can give it a new name.

> My son has a process and he is aware of his process (Montessori and I
> taught him from the beginning that he alone knows what is correct for him,

I went to a Montessori school for the first 2 year or so (in
Amsterdam).  Interesting experience... I suddenly realised just
how much I lost when my parents then immigrated to Australia and
the Montessori experience was cut woefully short.  The migration
of course had its own wonderful learning, six weeks on the
FairSea and 3 months living in the outback in Victoria, before
moving to the wonderful climate of Sydney and the beautiful bush
on its outskirts.

However the schooling in Australia was seriously bad news!
Structured lessons ... (content wise! I mean!  :)  corporal
punishment etc.

Montessori was strange although looking back on it. I had two
favorite activities, one was drawing circles and painting them
yellow -- repeated that thousands of times, attempting to perfect
my technique of not going *onto* the line let alone over it.
The other was polishing brass ornaments - especially one favorite
little jug -- I polished it for what still seems like eternity.

Was all that good for me?  I wonder.  Maybe some *extension* of
that into more creative areas wa called for?  But who knows, they
were my choices, and there was plenty of choice.  I was not much
of an explorer in that classroom.

~~~

Sounds like your son had a good experience there... I wish I'd
continued on with it... Im curious now as to how that would have
been... it would really be easy to see what was more naturally
me.  I have a sense that the perfectionistic streak that I had
might have given way to something else of its own accord if left
longer.

All of that might have more of an influence on me than I really
give it credit for... I was instrumental in setting up an
alternative school here in the early 70s which recently closed.
There are 2 or 3 others springing up at the moment though
following some of the model.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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