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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:52:11 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Cheryl's connection
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Cheryl, all

I have received the following two posts from Cheryl, and have added you
Cheryl, to the list with the new address, so you should get this via the
list Cheryl.

It could be any virus as you say, or even something else altogether?
Whatever it is I doubt you need to get a new PC, just someone who knows
how to get it going again on the cheap.

I use Norton's antivirus, it is a commercial product, but works well in
that I can update it easily once per week with info about new viruses,
this is done with one click while online, dead easy, and I feel much
more secure.  I did get infected with the Happy99?? virus and so that
got me motivated.

Cheryl, all the best and don't forget you can see all the old posts via
the archive, and even download them (ask me how if you ever need to do
this -- or look in the listserv manual :)

Walter


"Cheryl Foltos" <cheryl92@theglobe.com>

  Melissa Virus
  Thu, 01 Jul 1999 09:33:51 -0700


> Walter,
> Sorry to contact you off list but my computer has been invaded
> by the Melissa virus and I no longer have any usable applications
> at home. I am using a terminal from work and have set up a
> temporary address until I figure out what I want to do.
> At the moment this truly sucks. I am not going to be able to
> afford a new computer and don't yet know if anything is salvagable.
> I guess I'll resubscribe from this address until I know what else to
> do. I just wnated you to know so that if you see a new subscription
> request you'll know what it's about. Actually if you want to use this
> message as a 'welcome' you can do that.
>
> Grrrrrrrrrrr.........
>
> Cheryl
>


"Cheryl Foltos" <cheryl92@theglobe.com>

  (No Subject)
  Thu, 01 Jul 1999 10:54:18 -0700


> Walter,
> The IS people here tell me it might not be the Melissa
> virus - that it could be any virus. Just didn't want to
> alram anyone - I guess the Melissa spreads by sending
> itself to the first 50 people inyour address book. What a bother.
>

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:50:15 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: The eternal atmosphere
In-Reply-To:  <37783DF2.5A6A@coinet.com>
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Cheryl, all,

(Computers problems come and go. Aggravation. After much hassle
you'll be returned to computer grace. :-) )

***

vanilla roses lilacs spring rain .yes!

I like rose also, and some kinds of spicy musks and campfires, the
combination of pineapple and salt ocean air and places on the neck.

Maybe a fragrance could be a mantra or something like a comfort
stone, except you roll it around your nostrils! How wonderful the
imagination is that can conjure aromatic happiness even if, for
example,  one doesn't happen to be stepping off the plane in Honolulu.

I wonder if there are any more conjuring tricks to call up a moment
of happiness, or a breath of the eternal atmosphere?

***

best2all.Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:09:26 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals
In-Reply-To:  <3778BCAD.21D7@coinet.com>
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Cheryl

> Walter,
> What are fractals? I've heard this word before but don't have much of an
> understanding of what this is. Could you say more?


It is self similarity all the way through... the idea that we can
see the world in a grain of sand.

The way a leaf is structured like the tree.

Little waves on big waves.

Random patterns which repeat, so that there is order in chaos, as
in how sand ripples or the way the car shudders at exactly 65
kph.

The self similarity is important for psychotherapy, in that the
*process* of an interaction in our sessions might be indicative
of patterns in the whole of the clients life. Parallel process
between therapy and supervision too.

Synchronicity?


Here is a page of fractal images:

   http://web.pinknet.cz/fractal/frindex.html


Walter









__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 2 Jul 1999 22:33:39 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: A Rape in Cyberspace ~ By Julian Dibbell
In-Reply-To:  <37808975.157500979@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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At 09:10 am +0100 26/06/99, Walter Logeman wrote:
>I have been asked to speak to a conference of sexual health
>workers on Sexuality and the Internet and want to have this url
>handy:
>
> http://www.levity.com/julian/bungle_print.html
>From the opening:
>
>
>A Rape in Cyberspace


Walter,

This takes me back a few years.

If there's still time before your talk, here's some more articles you might
find of interest.

Simon


Julian Dibbell: 'My dinner with Catherine McKinnon and other hazards of
theorising virtual rape':
http://www.levity.com/julian/mydinner.html
(worth reading as a follow-up to the original article; maybe you saw it)

John Oughton: 'Genderbending on the MUSH':
http://www.oise.on.ca/~jnolan/muds/about_muds/ours/john1

Lynne Cherny: 'Gender differences in text-based virtual reality':
http://www.oise.on.ca/~jnolan/muds/about_muds/gt

Amy Bruckman: 'Gender swapping on the Internet':
http://www.oise.on.ca/~jnolan/muds/about_muds/asb/gen

Allucquere Rosanne Stone: 'Violation and virtuality reality: two cases of
physical and psychological boundary transgression and their implications':
http://www.eff.org/pub/Net_info/Net_culture/Gender_issues/violation_and_virtuali
ty.html

Tomasz Mazur: 'Working out the cyberbody: sex and gender constructions in
text-based virtual reality':
http://www.well.com/user/tmazur/research/sexgen.html

Infobahn magazine: 'Tinysex is Safe Sex':
http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~claire/texts/thoughts.html

Elizabeth M. Reid: 'Electropolis: Communication & Community in IRC':
http://www.oise.on.ca/~jnolan/muds/about_muds/et

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 2 Jul 1999 22:35:05 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals
In-Reply-To:  <377cd3d6.13588281@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 04:09 pm +0100 02/07/99, Walter Logeman wrote:

>The self similarity is important for psychotherapy, in that the
>*process* of an interaction in our sessions might be indicative
>of patterns in the whole of the clients life. Parallel process
>between therapy and supervision too.

And indicative of patterns in wider society ie. the
social/cultural/economic sphere in which people are situated and
constrained - the 'external atmosphere', perhaps?

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Jul 1999 02:08:10 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: A Rape in Cyberspace ~ By Julian Dibbell
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a09b3a2b6cfe489@[195.200.10.239]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, another link you might find useful:

Cleo Odzer: 'Virtual Spaces: Sex and the Cyber Citizen' (book excerpt, review)
http://www.echonyc.com/~cleo/vs.html

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Jul 1999 02:58:42 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: A Rape in Cyberspace ~ By Julian Dibbell
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a09b3a2b6cfe489@[195.200.10.239]>
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Simon,

Thanks for that info!  I thave a couple of months so will do the
work in some depth.


> Walter,
>
> This takes me back a few years.
>
> If there's still time before your talk, here's some more articles you might
> find of interest.
>
> Simon

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:14:55 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals
In-Reply-To:  <377cd3d6.13588281@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Cheryl
>
>> Walter,
> > What are fractals?

Walter,

Please indulge me here. Your response to Cheryl is slightly incorrect.

>It is self similarity all the way through... the idea that we can
>see the world in a grain of sand.

Yes. But, what you wrote next would be correct if you substitute
*irregular* for <random>, and clarified what you mean by chaos.
<Chaos> in our 'everyday' denotation  doesn't fit here, and chaos as
a mathematical conception needs to be explained, for the sake of
making a confusing matter less confusing(!).

>Random patterns which repeat, so that there is order in chaos, as
>in how sand ripples or the way the car shudders at exactly 65
>kph.

So, it is correct to state: "*Irregular* patterns which repeat, so
that there is order in chaos."

(Fractals have the same degree of irregularity at all scales of
measurement and depiction.)

***

Let's go a little further, especially to clarify your 'order in
chaos' distinction. A chaotic system may give the appearance of
randomness or disorder. It is in fact governed by deterministic
rules. But, when a system gives random, non-predictable results, the
process  is likely to be governed by inherently probabilistic
rule(s).  From this distinction, it is understood that one has to dig
deeper into the 'rules' before one may comprehend the difference
between results driven by deterministic rules and results driven by
probabilistic rules.

So, to examine how the pattern in a chaotic system 'works' one must
consider the initial state, and what are the fixed rules, and what
are the values for the variables. (There are more considerations
too). What is particularly confusing is precisely the paradox of
certain kinds of  fractals: they are iterated by perfectly
deterministic rules yet are extremely complex, even to the extent
that they are *apparently* messy or disorderly. Obviously, this is
confusing because chaos nowadays has come to mean both pattern and
mess!

But, the distinctions are crucial.

***

best to all,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:16:05 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Stephen Calhoun wrote:
>
> >Cheryl
> >
> >> Walter,
> > > What are fractals?
>
> Walter,
>
> Please indulge me here. Your response to Cheryl is slightly incorrect.
>
> for the sake of
> making a confusing matter less confusing(!).
>
N: I suppose (she says brightly) one might say that  15/16  and   1/2,
while looking quite
dissimilar, are both fractions.

            Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:12:31 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals
In-Reply-To:  <v04210101b3a671b6745e@[207.54.160.98]>
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Stephen,

> Yes. But, what you wrote next would be correct if you substitute
> *irregular* for <random>, and clarified what you mean by chaos.
> <Chaos> in our 'everyday' denotation  doesn't fit here, and chaos as
> a mathematical conception needs to be explained, for the sake of
> making a confusing matter less confusing(!).
>
> >Random patterns which repeat, so that there is order in chaos, as
> >in how sand ripples or the way the car shudders at exactly 65
> >kph.
>
> So, it is correct to state: "*Irregular* patterns which repeat, so
> that there is order in chaos."

Your clarifications are welcome.  I know I just threw an intuitive non
scientific explanation.  I am still reflecting on the difference between random
and irregular.  It sort of takes me to the edge of my intelligence... or is it
just comprehension?

How did we get into this... comparing perspectives of the psyche... is it a
chaotic system?  I think I was seeing something that had no particular pattern,
rather its own unique shape and Simon saw something which I commented looked
more like fractals.

I wonder if your distinction has an impact on that Stephen... I presume it has,
but I cant quite grasp it.

~~~

What is it about the ebb and flow of posts to Psyber-L?  Is the flow related to
some ebb and flow on the net as a whole?  (like shares which tend to move up and
down together with the DOW, even though there are exceptions?)  Or is there
something in our psyche... do we have a "path" to follow?  Are there certain
things we must do here so that other posts can happen?

Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:34:37 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> What is it about the ebb and flow of posts to Psyber-L?  Is the flow related to
> some ebb and flow on the net as a whole?  (like shares which tend to move up and
> down together with the DOW, even though there are exceptions?)  Or is there
> something in our psyche... do we have a "path" to follow?  Are there certain
> things we must do here so that other posts can happen?
>
> Walter

N: I am wondering something like this again, Walter.  Particularly if
the recent silences
were related to the List having recently gone more private, or whether
this was a seasonal
phenomina.  I now belong to a number of lists.  The JungCircle is the
only discussion group
which has not had silent spells in the  last month or so.  The haiku
lists seem to flow
right along without pause.
  My very tentative conclusions about 'other posts' has been that it is
hard to maintain an
interest center along the contimuum of what I might  call something like
'personal' ('warm and fuzzy'? and 'intuitive intellectual' on the lists
where members have diverse preferences.
  Hope that makes a little sense though my descriptions are not exact
enough to satisfy me.
        Nancy
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:24:19 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals
In-Reply-To:  <3788246a.6993699@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Walter, all,

>
>Your clarifications are welcome.  I know I just threw an intuitive non
>scientific explanation.  I am still reflecting on the difference
>between random
>and irregular.  It sort of takes me to the edge of my intelligence... or is it
>just comprehension?


I'm hoping it's the edge of your comprehension. :-) Since we're
discussing metaphoric applications of mathematical concepts, the
difference between irregular and randon could be put like this:

"Stephen has an irregular personality, but it's not a random one."

***

As far as how we got here, here's three posts reprised,

(Walter)  "Later
he was to decide that Andrew's life had been fractally weird.
That is you could take any small piece of it and examine it in
detail and it, in and of itself, would turn out to be just as
complicated and weird as the whole thing in its entirety."

(Simon, also quoting Walter) >The self similarity is important for
psychotherapy, in that the
>*process* of an interaction in our sessions might be indicative
>of patterns in the whole of the clients life. Parallel process
>between therapy and supervision too.

"And indicative of patterns in wider society ie. the
social/cultural/economic sphere in which people are situated and
constrained - the 'external atmosphere', perhaps?"

So, the subject is *pattern*; which can be regular and/or irregular.
Of course an irregular pattern may then strike us as being regular
once we observe it on the scale where it's regularity becomes
apparent, or, even more intriguing, become familiar with it so that
it's irregularity transforms into regularity.

An example of this would be: if you meet one uniquely peculiar kind
of person, then that person might be characterized as an irregularity
in the scheme of "persons", yet, if you meet another, this seeming
irregularity is less so, and if you meet several, then it might turn
out that the original uniqueness no longer holds.

Another example would regard the old saw, "Nothing happens randomly."
Okay, we become sensitive to the "external atmosphere" as Simon well
put it, and so we become immersed in a sea of regular and irregular
events. Our experience may at times imbue events with meaning or
import in a flow, continuous way; other times, the event is (or
becomes) a disruption or represents a discontinuity.

Hypothesis: our very human nature is wired to make the irregular more
regular.  (In other words, our sense of pattern is natural and
disposed toward making of the irregular, patterns.)

eh?

***

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:36:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <3787761D.61FA357@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Walter, nancy, all,

A couple of things I note about ebb and flow. I participate and am
committed to three mailing lists. If they all were to become busy I
would feel very cramped for time.

JungCircle has always generated a constant flow.
Netdynamics ebbs and flows but can produce a flood when there is
conflict or someone about to be gored by the lions :-)
Psyber-L ebbs and flows too; but different than Netdynam is that key
posters have fallen silent over the past year

***

As a 'personalized' space Psyber-L has, as I suggested several months
ago, possibly fallen below critical mass. Six main posters and five
long time posters who now lurk can only fuel the waves if it happens
that some core group is mutually engaged and inspired by the same
subjects or fields of interest, and, of course, this doesn't happen
in a vacuum either since what all is happening and how time becomes
available to one is also key.

Sol Cohen dropped in with a burst of fireworks and then...nada.

Irregular bursts of activity! Perhaps a larger pattern will become
apparent. (Just making some guesses, really.)

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 13:11:48 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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------------------
Stephen,
My interest piques when you mentioned
you are member of JungCircle.
Is that a closed or open group?
Professionals or everyone?
Web URL?   email address?

If you have a sec, can you let
me know, via my email add.below?

Thanks so much.
Linda Wageck, BS,MA, LCDC, ADC-III-Dipl.
email:  lwageck@io.com
------------------------
>Walter, nancy, all,
>
>A couple of things I note about ebb and flow. I participate and am
>committed to three mailing lists. If they all were to become busy I
>would feel very cramped for time.
>
>JungCircle has always generated a constant flow.
>Netdynamics ebbs and flows but can produce a flood when there is
>conflict or someone about to be gored by the lions :-)
>Psyber-L ebbs and flows too; but different than Netdynam is that key
>posters have fallen silent over the past year
>
>***
>
>As a 'personalized' space Psyber-L has, as I suggested several months
>ago, possibly fallen below critical mass. Six main posters and five
>long time posters who now lurk can only fuel the waves if it happens
>that some core group is mutually engaged and inspired by the same
>subjects or fields of interest, and, of course, this doesn't happen
>in a vacuum either since what all is happening and how time becomes
>available to one is also key.
>
>Sol Cohen dropped in with a burst of fireworks and then...nada.
>
>Irregular bursts of activity! Perhaps a larger pattern will become
>apparent. (Just making some guesses, really.)
>
>***
>
>Stephen
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 13:27:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

---------------
Walter, Nancy and group,
I've been pondering same as Nancy just commented.
Nancy said: " My very tentative conclusions about 'other
 posts' has been that it is hard to maintain an
interest center along the contimuum of what I might  call
 something like 'personal' ('warm and fuzzy'? and 'intuitive
intellectual' on the lists where members have diverse
preferences."
Insofar as words resonating, and vibrating,especially
on a more "soul" felt level  -- I notice a big
difference in the ebb and flow of dialog.
Another group emailList I belong to was sound asleep
earler in month around the holiday 4th --there were
even several "Helloa?Anyone Out There?" postings
just last week.
Then the subject turned to Whyte's work, re: Soul in the
Workplace.  Discussion grew around topic of so many of
our clients have abusive work atmospheres. Then discussion
took on a very tender and healing tone.  Male  therapists who
are younger and want to work + visit their child's school
play, are now dialoging with women who have had to work
(forced by single parenthood, etc.).  The topic of abuse
by managers and supervisors in the workplace is now a
very, live, dynamic thread in the same List.
The "flow" or floodgates opened, when list members were
resonating with like-vibrations -- but on a very soul felt
level (ie: not academic).
Of course, thats *one* List; not all Lists; not all subjects, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

[oh, P.S:  i have a sorta request: please lets not all start
              getting sidetracked with definition of "soul". At
               least for me, I'm just too tired.  Nancy's "warm &
                fuzzy" is better term I guess]
Thanx all,
Linda Wageck, BS,MA, LCDC, ADC-III-Dipl
Email:  lwageck@io.com
-------------------------------------------


 >Walter Logeman wrote:
>>
>> What is it about the ebb and flow of posts to Psyber-L?  Is the flow
>related to
>> some ebb and flow on the net as a whole?  (like shares which tend to move
>up and
>> down together with the DOW, even though there are exceptions?)  Or is there
>> something in our psyche... do we have a "path" to follow?  Are there certain
>> things we must do here so that other posts can happen?
>>
>> Walter
>
>N: I am wondering something like this again, Walter.  Particularly if
>the recent silences
>were related to the List having recently gone more private, or whether
>this was a seasonal
>phenomina.  I now belong to a number of lists.  The JungCircle is the
>only discussion group
>which has not had silent spells in the  last month or so.  The haiku
>lists seem to flow
>right along without pause.
>  My very tentative conclusions about 'other posts' has been that it is
>hard to maintain an
>interest center along the contimuum of what I might  call something like
>'personal' ('warm and fuzzy'? and 'intuitive intellectual' on the lists
>where members have diverse preferences.
>  Hope that makes a little sense though my descriptions are not exact
>enough to satisfy me.
>        Nancy
>> __________________________________________________________________
>> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:47:25 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re[P] Eb &Flow Posting/Soccer Game
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

----------------------------
Just my 2 cents on Saturday, 3:45 Central Time:

I watching my email computer screen.
When the womens soccer finals came on
tv -- almost instant  "constipation"  of the
ebb/flow of posting on all of the 5 lists
I subscribe too.  I mean, almost *deserted*
ghost-town email activity on all lists.

I'm guessing, people either:
1) Taxing children; running errands
2) Doing chores/maintenance around the house
3)  Taking nap/catching up on reading
4)  Watching soccer Game finals(US vs China)

I wonder how accurate my guessing is?  P.S. I have
a mirror over my computer screen at home which
serves as my "rear-view mirror" to watch some
TV (if important enough) while I get stuff done,
simultaneously, on my computer. Am serious.
(No telling what sort of image of myself I
just gave to list members, argghhh)
Linda Wageck,BS,MA, ADC-III-Dipl
email:  lwageck@io.com
.>---------------
>Walter, Nancy and group,
>I've been pondering same as Nancy just commented.
>Nancy said: " My very tentative conclusions about 'other
> posts' has been that it is hard to maintain an
>interest center along the contimuum of what I might  call
> something like 'personal' ('warm and fuzzy'? and 'intuitive
>intellectual' on the lists where members have diverse
>preferences."
>Insofar as words resonating, and vibrating,especially
>on a more "soul" felt level  -- I notice a big
>difference in the ebb and flow of dialog.
>Another group emailList I belong to was sound asleep
>earler in month around the holiday 4th --there were
>even several "Helloa?Anyone Out There?" postings
>just last week.
>Then the subject turned to Whyte's work, re: Soul in the
>Workplace.  Discussion grew around topic of so many of
>our clients have abusive work atmospheres. Then discussion
>took on a very tender and healing tone.  Male  therapists who
>are younger and want to work + visit their child's school
>play, are now dialoging with women who have had to work
>(forced by single parenthood, etc.).  The topic of abuse
>by managers and supervisors in the workplace is now a
>very, live, dynamic thread in the same List.
>The "flow" or floodgates opened, when list members were
>resonating with like-vibrations -- but on a very soul felt
>level (ie: not academic).
>Of course, thats *one* List; not all Lists; not all subjects, etc.
>
>Just my 2 cents.
>
>[oh, P.S:  i have a sorta request: please lets not all start
>              getting sidetracked with definition of "soul". At
>               least for me, I'm just too tired.  Nancy's "warm &
>                fuzzy" is better term I guess]
>Thanx all,
>Linda Wageck, BS,MA, LCDC, ADC-III-Dipl
>Email:  lwageck@io.com
>-------------------------------------------
>
>
> >Walter Logeman wrote:
>>>
>>> What is it about the ebb and flow of posts to Psyber-L?  Is the flow
>>related to
>>> some ebb and flow on the net as a whole?  (like shares which tend to move
>>up and
>>> down together with the DOW, even though there are exceptions?)  Or is there
>>> something in our psyche... do we have a "path" to follow?  Are there certain
>>> things we must do here so that other posts can happen?
>>>
>>> Walter
>>
>>N: I am wondering something like this again, Walter.  Particularly if
>>the recent silences
>>were related to the List having recently gone more private, or whether
>>this was a seasonal
>>phenomina.  I now belong to a number of lists.  The JungCircle is the
>>only discussion group
>>which has not had silent spells in the  last month or so.  The haiku
>>lists seem to flow
>>right along without pause.
>>  My very tentative conclusions about 'other posts' has been that it is
>>hard to maintain an
>>interest center along the contimuum of what I might  call something like
>>'personal' ('warm and fuzzy'? and 'intuitive intellectual' on the lists
>>where members have diverse preferences.
>>  Hope that makes a little sense though my descriptions are not exact
>>enough to satisfy me.
>>        Nancy
>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 01:59:15 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <199907101829.NAA02539@deliverator.io.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

All,

Talking of patterns, and ebbs and flows:

here's just one weave through the list stream... inevitably a
simplification of the interactions and refractions that happen here, and
not meant to be a judgement on significance...

There's no such thing as *the* beginning, of course, but I think a good
starting point is the poem that Cheryl brought to the list, about the
thread that goes among things that change but doesn't itself change...

...which then flows through the image of ripples spreading out from a
pebble thrown into a pond...

...on through the notion of hidden depths below the surface...

...to more nature imagery from Walter, who writes of a thread that winds
its way round trees and other things in the landscape, adding "of course
each trip around the tree is slightly different from the time before, and
noticing the subtly of that is important."...

...which prompts me to bring in the image of the spiral, and to talk about
jumping off the spiral rather than surveying the landscape...

...which puts Walter in mind of fractals...

... while Cheryl jumps off the spiral into a deep and painful issue for her
to do with appearance, and brings a workplace issue to the list when she
writes: "I have been denied promotion and advancement as a result of
"appearance-driven" men being in charge (who were also threated by my
intelligence and competence I might add and found the weight an easy (and
justifiable, at least according to them, target)."...

...and in responding to Cheryl's jump I write: "Then somehow the deep
inside needs to come to the surface and not be hidden away." ...

... Walter meanwhile encounters more things fractal, and brings this quote
from Neil Stephenson's 'Cryptonomicon' to the list:

>"This was just the executive summary of a weird life that Randy
>only learned about in bits and pieces as the years went on. Later
>he was to decide that Andrew's life had been fractally weird.
>That is you could take any small piece of it and examine it in
>detail and it, in and of itself, would turn out to be just as
>complicated and weird as the whole thing in its entirety."

Cheryl writes in response:

>Walter,
>What are fractals? I've heard this word before but don't have much of an
>understanding of what this is. Could you say more?
>
>Boy, I seem to be full of questions. We'll see where *this* thread goes.

To which Walter in turn responds:

>It is self similarity all the way through... the idea that we can
>see the world in a grain of sand.
...
>The self similarity is important for psychotherapy, in that the
>*process* of an interaction in our sessions might be indicative
>of patterns in the whole of the clients life. Parallel process
>between therapy and supervision too.

Which prompts me to write:

>And indicative of patterns in wider society ie. the
>social/cultural/economic sphere in which people are situated and
>constrained - the 'external atmosphere', perhaps?

Stephen highlights *pattern*...

...Nancy brings in the ebb and flow pattern of Psyber-L, compares it to the
patterns on some other lists, and writes:

>  My very tentative conclusions about 'other posts' has been that it is
>hard to maintain an
>interest center along the contimuum of what I might  call something like
>'personal' ('warm and fuzzy'? and 'intuitive intellectual' on the lists
>where members have diverse preferences.

Stephen in turn writes:

>Six main posters and five
>long time posters who now lurk can only fuel the waves if it happens
>that some core group is mutually engaged and inspired by the same
>subjects or fields of interest, and, of course, this doesn't happen
>in a vacuum either since what all is happening and how time becomes
>available to one is also key.

... and Linda, picking up on Nancy's words, writes of an energising
experience on another list, commenting:

>Then the subject turned to Whyte's work, re: Soul in the
>Workplace.  Discussion grew around topic of so many of
>our clients have abusive work atmospheres.

...connecting back to the workplace and the patterns in wider society - the
"external atmosphere"...

ripples spreading out... but also ripples converging in...


Simon

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:20:49 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

-----------------------------------
Simon,
Thanx for the great post.

Also, reminds me of [part] of a poem by
Tennyson (I'm paraphrasing only)
which goes:
           "At the end of all our searching,
             We shall return to where we first began;
            But Know that place for the first time".

[All things being interconnected --
deja vu, all over again.]

Kindest regards,
Linda
-------------------------------------
>All,
>
>Talking of patterns, and ebbs and flows:
>
>here's just one weave through the list stream... inevitably a
>simplification of the interactions and refractions that happen here, and
>not meant to be a judgement on significance...
>
>There's no such thing as *the* beginning, of course, but I think a good
>starting point is the poem that Cheryl brought to the list, about the
>thread that goes among things that change but doesn't itself change...
>
>...which then flows through the image of ripples spreading out from a
>pebble thrown into a pond...
>
>...on through the notion of hidden depths below the surface...
>
>...to more nature imagery from Walter, who writes of a thread that winds
>its way round trees and other things in the landscape, adding "of course
>each trip around the tree is slightly different from the time before, and
>noticing the subtly of that is important."...
>
>...which prompts me to bring in the image of the spiral, and to talk about
>jumping off the spiral rather than surveying the landscape...
>
>...which puts Walter in mind of fractals...
>
>... while Cheryl jumps off the spiral into a deep and painful issue for her
>to do with appearance, and brings a workplace issue to the list when she
>writes: "I have been denied promotion and advancement as a result of
>"appearance-driven" men being in charge (who were also threated by my
>intelligence and competence I might add and found the weight an easy (and
>justifiable, at least according to them, target)."...
>
>...and in responding to Cheryl's jump I write: "Then somehow the deep
>inside needs to come to the surface and not be hidden away." ...
>
>... Walter meanwhile encounters more things fractal, and brings this quote
>from Neil Stephenson's 'Cryptonomicon' to the list:
>
>>"This was just the executive summary of a weird life that Randy
>>only learned about in bits and pieces as the years went on. Later
>>he was to decide that Andrew's life had been fractally weird.
>>That is you could take any small piece of it and examine it in
>>detail and it, in and of itself, would turn out to be just as
>>complicated and weird as the whole thing in its entirety."
>
>Cheryl writes in response:
>
>>Walter,
>>What are fractals? I've heard this word before but don't have much of an
>>understanding of what this is. Could you say more?
>>
>>Boy, I seem to be full of questions. We'll see where *this* thread goes.
>
>To which Walter in turn responds:
>
>>It is self similarity all the way through... the idea that we can
>>see the world in a grain of sand.
>...
>>The self similarity is important for psychotherapy, in that the
>>*process* of an interaction in our sessions might be indicative
>>of patterns in the whole of the clients life. Parallel process
>>between therapy and supervision too.
>
>Which prompts me to write:
>
>>And indicative of patterns in wider society ie. the
>>social/cultural/economic sphere in which people are situated and
>>constrained - the 'external atmosphere', perhaps?
>
>Stephen highlights *pattern*...
>
>...Nancy brings in the ebb and flow pattern of Psyber-L, compares it to the
>patterns on some other lists, and writes:
>
>>  My very tentative conclusions about 'other posts' has been that it is
>>hard to maintain an
>>interest center along the contimuum of what I might  call something like
>>'personal' ('warm and fuzzy'? and 'intuitive intellectual' on the lists
>>where members have diverse preferences.
>
>Stephen in turn writes:
>
>>Six main posters and five
>>long time posters who now lurk can only fuel the waves if it happens
>>that some core group is mutually engaged and inspired by the same
>>subjects or fields of interest, and, of course, this doesn't happen
>>in a vacuum either since what all is happening and how time becomes
>>available to one is also key.
>
>... and Linda, picking up on Nancy's words, writes of an energising
>experience on another list, commenting:
>
>>Then the subject turned to Whyte's work, re: Soul in the
>>Workplace.  Discussion grew around topic of so many of
>>our clients have abusive work atmospheres.
>
>...connecting back to the workplace and the patterns in wider society - the
>"external atmosphere"...
>
>ripples spreading out... but also ripples converging in...
>
>
>Simon
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:23:58 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      JungCircle info
In-Reply-To:  <199907101814.NAA32234@deliverator.io.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

(I'm posting to Psyber-L in case anyone else is interested.)

>
>Stephen,
>My interest piques when you mentioned
you are member of JungCircle.

Jung Circle:  http://members.xoom.com/jungcircle
A Fireside Ring where Mercurius, Soul & Imagination reign
supreme . . .

To subscribe to or unsubscribe from Jung Circle Fireside List, go to
http://www.jungindex.net/circle/subscribe.html


>Is that a closed or open group?
>Professionals or everyone?

Open to everyone; even professionals. :-)

Glad to help, Linda.

g'day,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:44:26 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a06b3ad4419572a@[195.200.13.26]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Simon, all,

Helpful recap. thx My intuitiveness similarly regards all the threads
weaving themselves together, no matter whether they are abstract or
personal or both.

Another odd thing happens when different lists seem to parallel each
other. Since I'm on three psyche-oriented lists, this might be
expected at times but sometimes the seeming entranement between the
lists can be startling.

And each of the three lists is different, but. . .

***

regards,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:51:50 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals
In-Reply-To:  <3788246a.6993699@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Walter, you write, "I think I was seeing something that had no
particular pattern,
rather its own unique shape and Simon saw something which I commented looked
more like fractals."

I'd like to go around this a bit.

Irregularity moves into a pattern. . .touches upon an interesting
experience Judith and I had yesterday. This also folds in some stuff
about communication and how meanings overlap and do not. Also, and
this may have to do something with ebb and flows of posts, (heh,
maybe not!) and how it is our individual intentions via communicating
among others is realized.

buckle up

***

Judith and I are developing a plan for a short book about what we do
and, also, plotting how the book would be used as a manual for
experiential learning. Okay-

Generally, Judith and I bring to the table our different framings. At
the table, so-to-speak, we learn through our interaction learn the
ways in which our framings and meanings overlap, and the ways in
which they do not.

Where there is overlap there is an ease of communicating between us
because either the overlap of what is 'meant' poses no obstacles or,
if there is a differential, it is easily bridged with a little
further expanation or working toward some sort of shared middle
ground. Also, we've learned together to speak each other's language
to some extent and also learned how to bridge the greater disparity
in processing. I'm balanced on the extroversion/introversion
function, favoring extroversion, whereas Judith is decidedly
introverted. This is all about our feel for communicating, and
feeling about the situation of our interaction.

Now communication, (I'm supposing,) partly concerns making the
connection, i.e. successfully processing what is meant by the other
person.

Yesterday, as we began to sort out the differences in focus that will
eventually enrich the foundation of the collaboration on our book, I
introduced a concept, *play* and Judith then, not relating clearly to
what I meant, asked me what play means to me.

So, I sorted out for her the different 'attending' concepts and
qualities. Judith still didn't get it very well. Then I suggested
we'd have to experience *play* so she could understand it
experientially.

She posed a thought problem, then. "What would I experience if we did
that?" I thought to myself that she would experience *play* but put
it this way, "You'd experience the process of play."

We discussed the process of play for awhile. She felt my earlier
calling it 'soulful play' was a hint, a possible connecting point,
but we were stuck on her not having an experience of play. And I was
stuck on not really knowing what the obstacle to her understanding
really was. Then I asked her how she would she, short of playing,
develop an 'attitude of play'.

This unlocked the mystery of play for her. Instead of an abstract
idea wed to other abstract ideas it became a state of attitude, a way
of approach, and this made all the difference in our ability to
connect and make the bridge between what I intended to mean and what
Judith understood.

Thus the thread was developed between us on this day. In a second
post I will relate this experience to fractals, yup.

***

best to all,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 01:11:09 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      regular and irregular, unique and everything else
In-Reply-To:  <v04210101b3ad125a9b68@[207.54.160.39]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

all,

(I love the part when the train goes into the tunnel!)

Allow me to misuse the work: irregular! Where we are not understood,
there is an irregularity, or a lack of the kind of pattern which
connects and bridges.

***

The paradox of irregularity and regularity, touched upon in the
apparent irregularity and 'regulation' of the fractal pattern,
particularly as a matter of mathematics, yet metaphorically as a
description of a kind of interpersonal process, also refers to other
paradoxical phenomena, (for lack of a better word).

Several examples which I introduce to resonate with recent threads.

There is the paradox of the non-ordinary and the ordinary. An
example: most people, especially single persons, have an ideal in
mind when it comes to the qualities their anticipated soul mate would
possess. Generally, this is felt in the singular: such an ideal would
be represented by the one unique person who embodies these qualities.
Also, often this ideal is felt as the unique answer to our call for
partnership. (In terms of atmosphere, we might suppose our unique
eternal atmosphere finds its match in another's unique eternal
atmosphere.)

What happens, of course, is that we then encounter persons who seem
close to this ideal, or even are equal to it. Over time, if we should
go through several relationships or dances with a number of these
possible "answers" to our call, we develop an experience of how the
unique ideal we hold is in actuality repeated as a pattern in
embodiment of several persons with which we have done this dance.

A feature of this movement from a unique ideal to a particular
pattern is the reduction from the general to the actual. It is
notable that the seeming uniqueness of our ideal may be shared by
others, and there also is a pattern. However, to misuse irregularity
again, it is in the uniqueness of our ideal that we feel it is both
suited to our own uniqueness and also itself is not felt as being
either regular or ordinary.

(One way of sensing this paradox is to feel "unique pattern" as an oxymoron!)

Here's another example in which the paradox is deeper. One aspect we
share but also in the specifics is bound to be utterly unique for
each of us is the pattern of the events of our individual lives. It
obviously does not happen that individual's lives unfold in anything
other than a unique pattern, like a fingerprint.

We may share many of the same events but their order and the
different outcomes and the various ways in which cause and effect
reflects contingent factors, in total, add up to our truly unique
lives, and our unique 'stories'.

One way we can create a kind of class of similarity is to refer the
unique story against certain 'organizing principles'. One example of
a systematic set of principles and patterns is archetypal psychology.
This way of generalizing has a fractal (in the metaphoric sense),
aspect because the archetypes are generative in a deeply regulated
manner. (This description doesn;'t really justify use of fractal as
ametaphor, but for the sake of simplicity, kinda.)

However, note this second example reverses the dynamic of the first
example: the actuality is unique whereas the generalizing needed to
make the pattern 'regular' is an abstraction.

By the way both these examples can be further abstracted and thus
flipped and reversed again. Do you see this? :-)

***

My experience of *play* -scarcely expressible with respect to its
actuality for me- became, for Judith, ordinary, or much less
irregular, when I used *attitude* to, literally ordinate it for her.

Similarly, the actuality of an attractive person ordinates our unique
ideal. (Generally speaking, whatever is attractive to us ordinates
for us our ideal.)

In our work, Judith and I, understand that the utility of novelty
comes about through its ordination. Paradoxically, the a-ha of
insight expresses the non-ordinary and the ordinary; i.e. insight is
novelty connected through to some kind of pattern.

(Here, the fractal metaphor now beckons the metaphor of the strange
attractor.) Gregory Bateson puts it, "the difference that makes a
difference". To describe the way novelty is then ordinated is to,
inevitably, describe an aspect of process, of the change from one
dynamic state to a different dynamic state. Novelty, discontinuities;
yet unique stuff nonetheless eventuating "deeply regulated" (or in a
mathematical sense, "logical") patterns.

***

(Ordinarily, (!) when the unfolding of our own lives is spoken about,
seldom do we feel the specifics were due to randomness or random
effects.)

In our discussion, once Judith got what I meant (more crucially: and
I got what she meant!), it became easier for us to proceed to toss
back and forth our intuitions about the *attitude of play* and we
wrapped up our (as always,) intriguing encounter by noting how it is
this attitude is open to novelty, discontinuity.

We arrive at *openness*. Its an attitude optimally aware of the
ordinary, and the non-ordinary, the regular and the irregular, the
mundane and the divine.

(Better: the divine in the mundane.)

***

sent with a wish,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 01:15:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: JungCircle info
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

-----------------------------
Stephen,
I just spent the last 2 hours on the Jung Circle
site -- wow.

Thanks so much.  Really a treasure of a web
site; also very healing.

Kindest regards,
Linda
--------------------------
>(I'm posting to Psyber-L in case anyone else is interested.)
>
>>
>>Stephen,
>>My interest piques when you mentioned
>you are member of JungCircle.
>
>Jung Circle:  http://members.xoom.com/jungcircle
>A Fireside Ring where Mercurius, Soul & Imagination reign
>supreme . . .
>
>To subscribe to or unsubscribe from Jung Circle Fireside List, go to
>http://www.jungindex.net/circle/subscribe.html
>
>
>>Is that a closed or open group?
>>Professionals or everyone?
>
>Open to everyone; even professionals. :-)
>
>Glad to help, Linda.
>
>g'day,
>
>Stephen
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:09:46 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Re[P] Eb &Flow Posting/Soccer Game
In-Reply-To:  <199907102049.PAA29145@deliverator.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Linda,

> I watching my email computer screen.
> When the womens soccer finals came on
> tv -- almost instant  "constipation"  of the
> ebb/flow of posting on all of the 5 lists
> I subscribe too.  I mean, almost *deserted*
> ghost-town email activity on all lists.

Maybe, but I imagine the somewhat global nature and various time zones, would
interfere with that theory.

We can see roughly what country people are from by posting the following command


To: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

REView psyber-l by (country date)

The date is the date of subscription.  (Ill post up the results)


> I wonder how accurate my guessing is?  P.S. I have
> a mirror over my computer screen at home which
> serves as my "rear-view mirror" to watch some
> TV (if important enough) while I get stuff done,
> simultaneously, on my computer. Am serious.
> (No telling what sort of image of myself I
> just gave to list members, argghhh)

I can open the TV up in a window on my computer screen, the graphics card has a
TV tuner built in... I hardly ever use it while i am working on anything.

What sort of image does that project!!!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:13:56 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Membership of Psyber-L by country.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

The following is the result of a review psyber-l by (country date)

It is inaccurate in that

a) .com or .Net do not necessarily mean USA

b) the sub dates are just for the most recent subscription, not the first
subscription.




* Brazil:
damian@CENTROIN.COM.BR          [1997-05-11] Maddi Damian
* Canada:
lking@DIRECT.CA                 [1999-01-07] Lorraine King
aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA           [1996-08-24] Robert Longpre
* Denmark:
bbc@CYBERNET.DK                 [1998-09-27] Bent Bgedal Christoffersen
* Finland:
anitak@MEGABAUD.FI              [1997-12-29] Anita Konkka
* France:
gfrancil@CLUB-INTERNET.FR       [1999-01-27] Grard Francillon
* Great Britain:
dave@THE-FREAK-SHOW.DEMON.CO.UK [1998-06-21] David Postlethwaite
* New Zealand:
paulingb@CLEAR.NET.NZ           [1998-08-22] Brian Pauling
dan@GROUPSENSE.CO.NZ            [1998-07-05] Dan Randow
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ          [1997-05-22] Walter Logeman
* USA:
cheryl92@THEGLOBE.COM           [1999-07-01] Cheryl Foltos
lwageck@IO.COM                  [1999-06-29] L Wageck
psyber-group@EGROUPS.COM        [1999-06-29] Psyber Group
Cohensol@AOL.COM                [1999-06-05] Sol Cohen
hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET           [1999-05-22] Charles Cameron
josh@ZESTY.COM                  [1999-05-11] Josh On
lsaba_phd@YAHOO.COM             [1999-05-01] Lynne Saba
dwatkins@SWLINK.NET             [1999-03-24] Dan Watkins
nori@SOUTHEAST.NET              [1999-01-29] Wayne Richardson
nsmith@NEGIA.NET                [1999-01-23] Nancy Smith
amcgee@IGC.ORG                  [1999-01-14] Art McGee
taraindreams@YAHOO.COM          [1999-01-07] Renata Verschraegen
rcarls2@UMBC.EDU                [1999-01-06] Rob Carlson
CMCPsych@AOL.COM                [1998-11-10] Sheryl Garner
cfolt@COINET.COM                [1998-10-13] Cheryl Foltos
C21Teri@AOL.COM                 [1998-09-24] No Name Available
sswan@USD.EDU                   [1998-05-22] Susan Swan
judithb@APK.NET                 [1998-04-12] Judith Buerkel
miles@MAIL.COM                  [1997-08-26] Miles Thompson
jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET        [1996-09-21] Janell Adair
simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM             [1996-06-30] Simon G. Trask
hoon@APK.NET                    [Unknown]    Stephen Calhoun
moonasylum@QED.NET              [Unknown]    Marie Tondreau
*
*  Country                  Subscribers
*  -------                  -----------
*  Brazil                             1
*  Canada                             2
*  Denmark                            1
*  Finland                            1
*  France                             1
*  Great Britain                      1
*  New Zealand                        3
*  USA                               23
*
* Total number of users subscribed to the list:     33
* Total number of countries represented:             8
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:18:23 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a06b3ad4419572a@[195.200.13.26]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon,

Thanks for your beautiful summary!  With its own small profound summation at the
end:

> ripples spreading out... but also ripples converging in...


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:39:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <3787761D.61FA357@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy, All,

I think the more private nature may be a factor.  We have moved
from personal to related but abstract discussion.  I have found
that a little tricky.  I value the personal sharing we do here
very much, and also find it harder to respond to some of those
than to more abstract posts.  I am not comfortable with that in
myself... I'd like to come to terms with this phenomena I notice
in myself.

I am full of small but potent little injunctions... I don't want
to pry, I don't want to "play the therapist", I am afraid of
being insensitive ... etc.  Sometimes i have something quite
interesting about cyberspace or something, which I would like to
post but become reticent because it is so utterly intellectual
and unrelated to the sharing that is going on.

I guess that is my response to your second paragraph (below)...
is that in line with what you were thinking?


Walter

> N: I am wondering something like this again, Walter.
> Particularly if the recent silences were related to the List
> having recently gone more private, or whether this was a seasonal
> phenomina.  I now belong to a number of lists.  The JungCircle is
> the only discussion group which has not had silent spells in the
> last month or so.  The haiku lists seem to flow right along
> without pause.
>
> My very tentative conclusions about 'other posts' has been that
> it is hard to maintain an interest center along the contimuum of
> what I might  call something like 'personal' ('warm and fuzzy'?
> and 'intuitive intellectual' on the lists where members have
> diverse preferences. Hope that makes a little sense though my
> descriptions are not exact enough to satisfy me.
>
> Nancy
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:29:05 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Deep Feminine info
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Linda, Did you also request the subscriptiion address for Deep Feminen
list (or am I just
dreaming?)  If you did, you can join by sending a short note about
yourself and your interest
to:

Chris Ford at Chapford@ecentral.com

"L. Wageck" wrote:
>
> -----------------------------
> Stephen,
> I just spent the last 2 hours on the Jung Circle
> site -- wow.
>
> Thanks so much.  Really a treasure of a web
> site; also very healing.
>
> Kindest regards,
> Linda
> --------------------------
> >(I'm posting to Psyber-L in case anyone else is interested.)
> >
> >>
> >>Stephen,
> >>My interest piques when you mentioned
> >you are member of JungCircle.
> >
> >Jung Circle:  http://members.xoom.com/jungcircle
> >A Fireside Ring where Mercurius, Soul & Imagination reign
> >supreme . . .
> >
> >To subscribe to or unsubscribe from Jung Circle Fireside List, go to
> >http://www.jungindex.net/circle/subscribe.html
> >
> >
> >>Is that a closed or open group?
> >>Professionals or everyone?
> >
> >Open to everyone; even professionals. :-)
> >
> >Glad to help, Linda.
> >
> >g'day,
> >
> >Stephen
> >
> >____________________________________________________________
> >Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> >here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
> >
> >
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:01:01 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter, All,
  I want to be frank without being too blunt or tackless.  Don't know
how well
I'll manage this trickiness...

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Nancy, All,
>
> I think the more private nature may be a factor.  We have moved
> from personal to related but abstract discussion.  I have found
> that a little tricky.  I value the personal sharing we do here
> very much, and also find it harder to respond to some of those
> than to more abstract posts.  I am not comfortable with that in
> myself... I'd like to come to terms with this phenomena I notice
> in myself.
>
N: I had sensed this about you, Walter, and intuited some of the
reasons you give.  Unfortunately I have also probably added some
projections from and early home of which my father wrote: 'by forty
all communication had ceased between us save Yeh or Ney.'  I was
born after that time of ceasation and so have lived hypersensative
to most omissions or hesitancy in personal responsiveness.

> I am full of small but potent little injunctions... I don't want
> to pry, I don't want to "play the therapist", I am afraid of
> being insensitive ... etc.  Sometimes i have something quite
> interesting about cyberspace or something, which I would like to
> post but become reticent because it is so utterly intellectual
> and unrelated to the sharing that is going on.

N: Usually you confine this to a separate thread where it may or may
not find resonace.  If I have nothing to offer, I just keep still.
>
> I guess that is my response to your second paragraph (below)...
> is that in line with what you were thinking?

  Walter

N: Yes.  I think you've understood my two main points quite well.
I did however think that one of the reasons for becoming more
private was also to feel freer in personal dialogue.  (Was I mistaken
in this?)  The greatest
outpouring I have noticed since the change was after Cheryl's recent
confidences.  It seemed that everyone could empathize with her
situation.
   JungCircle, as has been mention, seems to have the most continuous
posting (of those I know)  It almost always maintains a 'positive
attitude',
so much so that I find it a little 'off balance' (saccharine?).   This
may be my own idiosycracy and Linda may not find it so with time.  It
also stays with a ...  um... sort of poetic prose style.  I do not
want to be understood as advocating that for this list except when it
is naturally occuring.
   I suppose that you find your real life role as therapist (with a
possibility
of taking online someday?) may sometimes conflict with your role on list
(?)
Jungian Analysist Alice O. Howell is an almost daily contributor to
JungCircle,
but she does not have the addition responsibilities of List Owner.

  Well, donno how well I've managed to walk the 'tightrope', but that's
my attempt
at present.  As you know Psyber-L was my 'first love'.

  Nancy

>
> > N: I am wondering something like this again, Walter.
> > Particularly if the recent silences were related to the List
> > having recently gone more private, or whether this was a seasonal
> > phenomina.  I now belong to a number of lists.  The JungCircle is
> > the only discussion group which has not had silent spells in the
> > last month or so.  The haiku lists seem to flow right along
> > without pause.
> >
> > My very tentative conclusions about 'other posts' has been that
> > it is hard to maintain an interest center along the contimuum of
> > what I might  call something like 'personal' ('warm and fuzzy'?
> > and 'intuitive intellectual' on the lists where members have
> > diverse preferences. Hope that makes a little sense though my
> > descriptions are not exact enough to satisfy me.
> >
> > Nancy
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:41:33 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Eb &Flow Posting/Soccer Game
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

-----------------------------------
Walter,
I'm so jealous!  About your computer, with
TV screen, card, etc.
What kind of computer do you have? [This is a
serious inquiry, really.] The only computer I
have now to work on (both personal *and*
professiaonl) is a new iMac.  I know.
But I've always been a very dedicated
Macevangleist. But when the umpteenth
testassessments software company, told me
not they don't have the same software or CD
in Mac, last month I threw n the towel and
decided to get a new (additional) computer;
my first PC.
I've not yet purchased it. I still love my beloved
iMac; I intend to keep it.  But I dread learning
a new platform (the rest of the summer, while
I';m *supposed* to be on vacation.). My iMac
has QuckTime video/audio built in, of course.
and also, I hae  RealPlayer G2>. Probably a
"user" problem, as well, as I've pretty much
self-taught myself any few computer skilss I
have (and typically, about two days before a
paper was due in grad school).  So the lack
of time to actually learn correct  computer
skils by this 'user" is a definite factor.

But, again Walter, what brand, etc.  Details?
I'm going out next weekend to actually plop
down the big$ for it.  Since I'm a NewsAddict,
and can't see myself on the computer without
the news on -- your set-up sounds like a
dream-come-true.
Please advise,
LInda
---------------------------------
Linda,
>
>> I watching my email computer screen.
>> When the womens soccer finals came on
>> tv -- almost instant  "constipation"  of the
>> ebb/flow of posting on all of the 5 lists
>> I subscribe too.  I mean, almost *deserted*
>> ghost-town email activity on all lists.
>
>Maybe, but I imagine the somewhat global nature and various time zones, would
>interfere with that theory.
>
>We can see roughly what country people are from by posting the following
>command
>
>
>To: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>
>REView psyber-l by (country date)
>
>The date is the date of subscription.  (Ill post up the results)
>
>
>> I wonder how accurate my guessing is?  P.S. I have
>> a mirror over my computer screen at home which
>> serves as my "rear-view mirror" to watch some
>> TV (if important enough) while I get stuff done,
>> simultaneously, on my computer. Am serious.
>> (No telling what sort of image of myself I
>> just gave to list members, argghhh)
>
>I can open the TV up in a window on my computer screen, the graphics card has a
>TV tuner built in... I hardly ever use it while i am working on anything.
>
>What sort of image does that project!!!
>
>
>Walter
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 13:10:36 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Deep Feminine info
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

-----------------------------
Nancy,
Hmmmm-m-m-m-m-;-}
.
Yes, you were dreaming, but not
"just".
Boy, talk about powerful, insightfuly
dreaming.  Talk about reading my mind.
Talk about pre-cognition! (love it).

No I didn't request subscription
addres for Deep Feminene cuz I've
never heard of it till now -- but
now *very* interested.

Will follow through with a shortened
CV or something to the person you
listed.

Thanx again for your most interesting
and pre-cog, dream
Hmmmmmm......;-}
Linda
-----------------------------------
>Linda, Did you also request the subscriptiion address for Deep Feminen
>list (or am I just
>dreaming?)  If you did, you can join by sending a short note about
>yourself and your interest
>to:
>
>Chris Ford at Chapford@ecentral.com
>
>"L. Wageck" wrote:
>>
>> -----------------------------
>> Stephen,
>> I just spent the last 2 hours on the Jung Circle
>> site -- wow.
>>
>> Thanks so much.  Really a treasure of a web
>> site; also very healing.
>>
>> Kindest regards,
>> Linda
>> --------------------------
>> >(I'm posting to Psyber-L in case anyone else is interested.)
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Stephen,
>> >>My interest piques when you mentioned
>> >you are member of JungCircle.
>> >
>> >Jung Circle:  http://members.xoom.com/jungcircle
>> >A Fireside Ring where Mercurius, Soul & Imagination reign
>> >supreme . . .
>> >
>> >To subscribe to or unsubscribe from Jung Circle Fireside List, go to
>> >http://www.jungindex.net/circle/subscribe.html
>> >
>> >
>> >>Is that a closed or open group?
>> >>Professionals or everyone?
>> >
>> >Open to everyone; even professionals. :-)
>> >
>> >Glad to help, Linda.
>> >
>> >g'day,
>> >
>> >Stephen
>> >
>> >____________________________________________________________
>> >Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>> >here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 05:46:26 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <3788CDCD.281DF157@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy

>   I want to be frank without being too blunt or tackless.  Don't know
> how well
> I'll manage this trickiness...

Well I think.

> N: I had sensed this about you, Walter, and intuited some of the
> reasons you give.  Unfortunately I have also probably added some
> projections from and early home of which my father wrote: 'by forty
> all communication had ceased between us save Yeh or Ney.'  I was
> born after that time of ceasation and so have lived hypersensative
> to most omissions or hesitancy in personal responsiveness.

I have mentioned my hesitancy and so on... I can see how that
could easily create a vicious circle in combination with
inevitable residue from your family of origin.  Opportunity for
us to turn that around into synergy... which I have a sense we
are doing.

> > I am full of small but potent little injunctions... I don't want
> > to pry, I don't want to "play the therapist", I am afraid of
> > being insensitive ... etc.  Sometimes i have something quite
> > interesting about cyberspace or something, which I would like to
> > post but become reticent because it is so utterly intellectual
> > and unrelated to the sharing that is going on.
>
> N: Usually you confine this to a separate thread where it may or may
> not find resonace.  If I have nothing to offer, I just keep still.

Yes.  I like to think of each thread as having a life of its own,
as well as contributing to the whole, and so those not interested
in the topic can skip without fear of loosing too much.  For all
that this does not overcome my hesitancy... I will happily
respond to Lisa's question about my computer, and do that in a
separate thread.  We could all compare notes about hardware to
our heart's content...  I am also conscious that in "real life"
computer talk cutting across more personal talk can be escape
from the more intimate and sometimes painful potential.  Having
threads here means it is much easier to have several
conversations which do not cut across each other.  The difficulty
is still there though, especially when there are only a few
posts.

> > I guess that is my response to your second paragraph (below)...
> > is that in line with what you were thinking?
>
>   Walter
>
> N: Yes.  I think you've understood my two main points quite well.
> I did however think that one of the reasons for becoming more
> private was also to feel freer in personal dialogue.  (Was I mistaken
> in this?)

That was my intention... I think there has been more personal
sharing, the life situations from Judith and Cheryl and many more
personal incidentals as well.

<sniped interesting comments on JungCircle>

>    I suppose that you find your real life role as therapist (with a
> possibility
> of taking online someday?) may sometimes conflict with your role on list
> (?)

Yes.  I like a strong container around psychological work.  We
have strengthened that here.  While the list was open, as more
and more people came online the possibility of my psychotherapy
clients coming into Psyber-L increased all the time, and I don't
think it would be a good thing to combine both, specially in a
list where I talk about my personal life and feelings.  The same
applies with online therapy or counselling... the net is a very
public place and we meet the same faces as we go to various
psychological places, the world is till small!

I am interested in online therapy, and have done some at the
moment am exploring how it ties in with ordinary f2f work... and
that is going quite well.  The "container" is vastly altered,
more so than by including the occasional phone call from clients.


You are right Nancy, someday I'd like to do... *something*, I am
inclined not to think we can do psychotherapy on line but rather
that there will be new psychological medium that evolves... this
sort of list is one of them!

> Jungian Analysist Alice O. Howell is an almost daily contributor to
> JungCircle, but she does not have the addition responsibilities
> of List Owner.

Frequent contributors have a big influence in and online group.
The List Owner does as well... in my foray into this field I have
had the title of Sysop, List owner, and at one point I used the
word "facilitator" from which i made a hasty retreat once I saw
that it carried with it a level of responsibility for the process
that went further than I wanted in Psyber-L.  In the Dream Event
Charles and I used the word as well (from memory) where it might
have been more suitable.  Now I tend to think more of Host, as
this word is being used a lot and is a bit different from Owner.


At this point Dan Randow (on this list) and I are talking about
these various roles a lot and working on writing up a document on
how they interrelate.

>   Well, donno how well I've managed to walk the 'tightrope', but that's
> my attempt
> at present.  As you know Psyber-L was my 'first love'.

I am enjoying the discussion and finding that it has led me into
areas I wish to explore.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:00:52 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Happiness
In-Reply-To:  <377A69B9.4A27@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl, Stephen

> Happiness smells like vanilla hand-lotion which I wear as often as I
> remember because it is so lucious. Or roses. Or lilacs. Or spring rain.
> Or fresh mown grass...which reminds me...

I have not absorbed, or rather grasped, the whole thread of
"eternal atmosphere" ... but it has taken us to this post of
yours Cheryl, which is a good thing.  I also enjoyed the story
you sent Stephen about the boy who swept the porch.

What i really want to ask though, Cheryl is how you are doing
with your heart's desire!

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:08:05 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <v04210100b3ad124395c7@[207.54.160.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen

> As a 'personalized' space Psyber-L has, as I suggested several months
> ago, possibly fallen below critical mass. Six main posters and five
> long time posters who now lurk can only fuel the waves if it happens
> that some core group is mutually engaged and inspired by the same
> subjects or fields of interest, and, of course, this doesn't happen
> in a vacuum either since what all is happening and how time becomes
> available to one is also key.

Of course leaving and lurking mirror something of the psyche in
our midst.  I have been discussing my "hesitancy" with Nancy...
lurking is a sort of hesitancy perhaps... is there a "thing"
happening here?  Or am I alone with the "potent injunctions i
mentioned?

On a more practical level, I think it would be good to have some
more people here ....

Any one have ideas on that?

I somehow think that if we simply *do what we do well* then
others will want to be here, by word of mouth as it were.

What is needed?


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:32:19 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals
In-Reply-To:  <v04210103b3ade007da7b@[207.54.181.20]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen, Judith

> Judith and I are developing a plan for a short book about what we do
> and, also, plotting how the book would be used as a manual for
> experiential learning. Okay-

Good to hear about your project... and to hear you mention such
plans with Judith...

Hoping your health is doing well Judith,


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:47:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      What kind of computer do you have?
In-Reply-To:  <199907111643.LAA32633@deliverator.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Linda,

  Re: Eb &Flow Posting/Soccer Game
  Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:41:33 -0500


> What kind of computer do you have?

I have what we might call a Captain Cook's Axe.  It was Captain
Cook's but it has had 10 new handles and 5 new heads.

This is what i like about PCs ... when I need a faster graphics
card, I can get one and put it in.

So if you want this sort of thing buy any PC and it can probably
be set up for you the way you want it.

Mine was a 486 once but now has a new case, new mother board (AMD
K6 200) New 6 gig Hard Disk, and still has the older 2 gig one
and I have the original 500 one as well in a drawer!  It had a
14" screen, now 17".  On my wish list is a flat LCD one.

I am not technically minded really, have been doing this since
the mid 80s with lots of help!  Friends and helpful professional
aquaintences who will do wonders for a few petrol vouchers etc.

It once ran DOS & win3.1 and now has Win 98.  I am now in the
process of putting Linux on the 2 gig hard drive... I seem to
have a deep psychological need to do this ... I hope it is not
too pathological.  It once had 4! meg of memory, now 96.

I am writing my notes up as i go on what I am doing... in an
egroup, anyone who wants to join to watch or join in, let me
know!

Lisa, I hope you go well with your purchase... bigger everything
is best IMO, but over here we can get amazing PCs way more
powerful than mine for around NZ$ 1200. Something like that could
be upgraded for years.


Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:42:01 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Happiness
In-Reply-To:  <378e9196.165995663@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Walter writes,

>I have not absorbed, or rather grasped, the whole thread of
>"eternal atmosphere"

*Experientially grasped*

Same question I asked of Cheryl I now ask of you, Walter,

Of all the possibilities you *would be able to* realize tomorrow, if
you could pick one what would it be?

Now imagine yourself immersed in your very own unique eternal
atmosphere, and you sense a delightful aroma...it is the aroma of
*happiness*.

What does happiness smell like to you, Walter?

***

Hey, what is the experience of answering these questions like for you? :-)

***

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:56:15 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Computer/Tourists Rush In???
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

-----------------------------------
Walter<
That's facinating.  do you knkow anything about the
new eMachines?  I was told this morning (Monday,
July 12, 1999) they can build one for in 3 days,
I just need to tell them what I want; they build
one according to what you need, so you don't buy
what you don't need.  Got great reviews from the
MSNBC computer guru.

Also,
You are in New Zealand?  This next question is not
about computers *or* Psych...but...I just have
to ask:  Are you expected hoards of people to
appear in your neighbohood approximately
Dec.31, 1999??? I've read that's the case.
In some instances, I read homes are renting
out bedrooms (for high prices) to visitors/
vacationer who want to be some of the first
people on the planet to see the sun rise on
January 1,2000.:-0

 Are you in that area? ;-)

Thanx,
Linda Wageck
-------------------------------
>Linda,
>
>  Re: Eb &Flow Posting/Soccer Game
>  Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:41:33 -0500
>
>
>> What kind of computer do you have?
>
>I have what we might call a Captain Cook's Axe.  It was Captain
>Cook's but it has had 10 new handles and 5 new heads.
>
>This is what i like about PCs ... when I need a faster graphics
>card, I can get one and put it in.
>
>So if you want this sort of thing buy any PC and it can probably
>be set up for you the way you want it.
>
>Mine was a 486 once but now has a new case, new mother board (AMD
>K6 200) New 6 gig Hard Disk, and still has the older 2 gig one
>and I have the original 500 one as well in a drawer!  It had a
>14" screen, now 17".  On my wish list is a flat LCD one.
>
>I am not technically minded really, have been doing this since
>the mid 80s with lots of help!  Friends and helpful professional
>aquaintences who will do wonders for a few petrol vouchers etc.
>
>It once ran DOS & win3.1 and now has Win 98.  I am now in the
>process of putting Linux on the 2 gig hard drive... I seem to
>have a deep psychological need to do this ... I hope it is not
>too pathological.  It once had 4! meg of memory, now 96.
>
>I am writing my notes up as i go on what I am doing... in an
>egroup, anyone who wants to join to watch or join in, let me
>know!
>
>Lisa, I hope you go well with your purchase... bigger everything
>is best IMO, but over here we can get amazing PCs way more
>powerful than mine for around NZ$ 1200. Something like that could
>be upgraded for years.
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:30:10 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Happiness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Cheryl, Stephen,(Nancy added: Walter,  All),
>
> > Happiness smells like vanilla hand-lotion which I wear as often as I
> > remember because it is so lucious. Or roses. Or lilacs. Or spring rain.
> > Or fresh mown grass...which reminds me...

Walter continues:

> I have not absorbed, or rather grasped, the whole thread of
> "eternal atmosphere" ...

N: I have heard it said that the body of Saints give off the 'odor of
sanctity'.   Has anyone read anything esoteric enough to be able to tell
what this fragrance might  be like?
   Somehow 'altar of roses' comes to mind, but it might just be the
'altar' part.

Walter again,

> but it has taken us to this post of
> yours Cheryl, which is a good thing.  I also enjoyed the story
> you sent Stephen about the boy who swept the porch.
>
> What i really want to ask though, Cheryl is how you are doing
> with your heart's desire!
>
> Walter

N: I, too, am interested but (like Walter) don't want to be intrusive.

Best,  Nancy
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:50:17 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
In-Reply-To:  <378db652.175389572@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Walter,

I, too, have a computer with multiple hard drivesw and am also interestedin
Linux. How much trouble is it to install and use both Linux and Windows as
dula operating systems? Thanks.

Dan

At 09:47 AM 7/12/99 GMT, you wrote:
>Linda,
>
>  Re: Eb &Flow Posting/Soccer Game
>  Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:41:33 -0500
>
>
>> What kind of computer do you have?
>
>I have what we might call a Captain Cook's Axe.  It was Captain
>Cook's but it has had 10 new handles and 5 new heads.
>
>This is what i like about PCs ... when I need a faster graphics
>card, I can get one and put it in.
>
>So if you want this sort of thing buy any PC and it can probably
>be set up for you the way you want it.
>
>Mine was a 486 once but now has a new case, new mother board (AMD
>K6 200) New 6 gig Hard Disk, and still has the older 2 gig one
>and I have the original 500 one as well in a drawer!  It had a
>14" screen, now 17".  On my wish list is a flat LCD one.
>
>I am not technically minded really, have been doing this since
>the mid 80s with lots of help!  Friends and helpful professional
>aquaintences who will do wonders for a few petrol vouchers etc.
>
>It once ran DOS & win3.1 and now has Win 98.  I am now in the
>process of putting Linux on the 2 gig hard drive... I seem to
>have a deep psychological need to do this ... I hope it is not
>too pathological.  It once had 4! meg of memory, now 96.
>
>I am writing my notes up as i go on what I am doing... in an
>egroup, anyone who wants to join to watch or join in, let me
>know!
>
>Lisa, I hope you go well with your purchase... bigger everything
>is best IMO, but over here we can get amazing PCs way more
>powerful than mine for around NZ$ 1200. Something like that could
>be upgraded for years.
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:50:40 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         catcher at times <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET> wrote:

> Dear Walter,

>

> I, too, have a computer with multiple hard drivesw and am also

> interestedin

> Linux. How much trouble is it to install and use both Linux and

> Windows as

> dula operating systems? Thanks.

Does this mean that you guys _don't_ have a Mac? Maybe this
sounds weird, but I thought that everyone with some sense had a
Mac - guess I'm just byassed.

renata (sorry to but in, by the way)
===
But where is what I started for so long ago?
And why is it yet unfound?
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:27:39 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
In-Reply-To:  <19990712225040.17108.rocketmail@web215.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 03:50 PM 7/12/99 -0700, you wrote:
>--- Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET> wrote:
>
>> Dear Walter,
>
>>
>
>> I, too, have a computer with multiple hard drivesw and am also
>
>> interestedin
>
>> Linux. How much trouble is it to install and use both Linux and
>
>> Windows as
>
>> dula operating systems? Thanks.
>
>Does this mean that you guys _don't_ have a Mac? Maybe this
>sounds weird, but I thought that everyone with some sense had a
>Mac - guess I'm just byassed.

I've got a IIsi that still works.


>
>renata (sorry to but in, by the way)
>===
>But where is what I started for so long ago?
>And why is it yet unfound?
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:50:39 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      there IS a God! fr/ a MacAddict
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

--------------------------------------------
                         Yes, Thank God, Another Wise One Who
                         Realizes the HigherTruth (ie: Mac Rules)=
                          My Hero of the Day:     Walter
Walter,

I have an iMac! (She eagerly raises her hand,
waving around)

I do!
Ido!

Macs Rule!
From
Another Macevanglist'-))

(I'm the list member who has a mirror over my turq.iMac,
   to view TV news -- I want to know what to ask forat computer store so
I
    can watch TV on my screen like you described in an earlier post-
software?)

Eager-borline-almost-frantic-for-specifics-cuz-am-a-MacAddict
Linda
email: lwageck@io.com
-------------------------->At 03:50 PM 7/12/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>--- Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Walter,
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I, too, have a computer with multiple hard drivesw and am also
>>
>>> interestedin
>>
>>> Linux. How much trouble is it to install and use both Linux and
>>
>>> Windows as
>>
>>> dula operating systems? Thanks.
>>
>>Does this mean that you guys _don't_ have a Mac? Maybe this
>>sounds weird, but I thought that everyone with some sense had a
>>Mac - guess I'm just byassed.
>
>I've got a IIsi that still works.
>
>
>>
>>renata (sorry to but in, by the way)
>>===
>>But where is what I started for so long ago?
>>And why is it yet unfound?
>>_________________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:01:48 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: there IS a God! fr/ a MacAddict
In-Reply-To:  <199907130053.TAA10974@deliverator.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Linda... all...

No no no ... no PC vs Mac wars...

Please!

But for those who must, have a look at Neal Stephensons article
on the whole technology scene, which I mentioned in an earlier
post:

  Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
  Command Line ~ by Neal Stephenson
  Sat, 26 Jun 1999 08:02:56 GMT

  http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html


Linda, you wrote:
> I want to know what to ask forat computer store so
> I can watch TV on my screen like you described in an earlier post-
> software?

A TV card. They also come combined with the graphics card.

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:25:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Tourists Rush In???
In-Reply-To:  <199907121559.KAA27302@deliverator.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Linda, you wrote:

  Re: Computer/Tourists Rush In???
  Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:56:15 -0500


> Also,
> You are in New Zealand?

Yes the South Island.

> Are you expected hoards of people to
> appear in your neighbohood approximately
> Dec.31, 1999??? I've read that's the case.

There is a place in the North Island where David Bowie will be
performing... many miles from here.

We will still get the sun a day before the rest of the world, and
we'll probably climb a mountain to watch the dawn.

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:13:47 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Linux Odyssey
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19990712135017.0096cd80@swlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dan,

you wrote:

> I, too, have a computer with multiple hard drivesw and am also interestedin
> Linux. How much trouble is it to install and use both Linux and Windows as
> dula operating systems? Thanks.

I have not done it but am in the process of exploring it

I tend to use email groups for everything and my slow progress,
is on view here:

~~~

Linux Odyssey
I want a place to keep a record of my journey with the linux os,
and keep my jotting for easy access.  I will invite a few friends
and if you want to watch or are on this journey & want to discuss
the whys and wherefores and tell tales of your *odyssey*, you're
welcome to join in.

To subscribe, send a message to
linuxodyssey-subscribe@egroups.com or go to this e-group's home
page at http://www.egroups.com/list/linuxodyssey

You can also see the archives there.

Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:20:42 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

catcher at times wrote:

> Does this mean that you guys _don't_ have a Mac? Maybe this
> sounds weird, but I thought that everyone with some sense had a
> Mac - guess I'm just byassed.

N: Am I missing a joke?  I was told last year (and read) that 80-90% of
computer users has
some sort of IBM compatible.  I sorta wanted a Mac, but also thought I
might want to exchange
floppies and write with others.
  And what was that last word you used, Renata?
>
> renata (sorry to but in, by the way)

N: Don't think there is an other way (espec. now that I'm trying to keep
my phone line free
for house repair people to reach me and so puting posts in "send
later".)
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:20:53 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Tourists Rush In???
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> We will still get the sun a day before the rest of the world, and
> we'll probably climb a mountain to watch the dawn.
>
> Walter

N: Oh, good!  Then you can tell us what works and what doesn't...  That
is
if your computer still works <g>

   My niece and family have now been in New Zealand for 10 days.  The
younger 'rough and
ready'  son has already begun school at Boulcott.  They are still
looking for the elder,
shier one.   It hadn't before occurred to me than your school years
would be reversed from
ours along with the seasons.  Poor kids.  Hers hardly got out for summer
vacation when they
moved and they had to start right back in again.
  Her mother and I are impatiently waiting their purchase of a current
compatible computer.
Judy said told me she printed out the ISP list I forwarded from you.

  Best regards, Nancy
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:21:30 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:

>
> Of course leaving and lurking mirror something of the psyche in
> our midst.  I have been discussing my "hesitancy" with Nancy...
> lurking is a sort of hesitancy perhaps... is there a "thing"
> happening here?  Or am I alone with the "potent injunctions i
> mentioned?

N: Now I can't remember exactly what they were, but I'm sure you
are not alone in most of them.  Yet I find in some ways I am freer
to express myself here than in many group in the small town where
I have lived for over 20 yrs.
>
> On a more practical level, I think it would be good to have some
> more people here ....
>
> Any one have ideas on that?

N: Actually I have noticed practically no correlation in participation
and size in
e-lists.  Perhaps you have?
>
> I somehow think that if we simply *do what we do well* then
> others will want to be here, by word of mouth as it were.
>
> What is needed?

N: I picked up this group from a link from the San Francisco Jung
Institute.  I'm
not sure that link any longer exists.  Yet it seems to me many here are
familiar
with his works... or has that changed?


> Walter

N: You mentioned in an earlier post that you had felt (before this
became more private)
that the possibility of your clients being members has increase.  I can
understand that
as an inhibitor and hope it is now decreased.  I would like to view you
as a Host/participant.

    Best regards,  Nancy

PS I do hope that 'no news is good news' from Judith?
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:33:25 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         catcher at times <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET> wrote:
> N: Am I missing a joke?  I was told last year (and read) that
> 80-90% of
> computer users has
> some sort of IBM compatible.  I sorta wanted a Mac, but also
> thought I
> might want to exchange
> floppies and write with others.
Oh, but you can do that if you have a Mac - he knows how to talk
with IBM compatibles. And I wasn't really joking - I am a Mac
freak, to be honest.
>   And what was that last word you used, Renata?
If you mean "byassed" - it means something like "prejudiced" -
renata

===
But where is what I started for so long ago?
And why is it yet unfound?
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:12:44 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Walter Logeman wrote:


>  > I somehow think that if we simply *do what we do well* then
>  > others will want to be here, by word of mouth as it were.
>  >
>  > What is needed?

From here, Walter, I've felt a very loose association within Psyber-L that I
honestly take to be indifference or apathy by the list.  I can't put my
finger on it, exactly, except it *feels* to me to be a lack of passion.

Occasionally passion surfaces, as in Cheryl's post about her desire, or some
other passion that resonates within me.   I see some passion that ignites
other members,  but has no resonance for me.  I don't know if this is because
I expended passion I felt for Psyber-L when I first signed on (only a couple
of years ago?), and by accident stumbled into PWP (whatever that turned out
to be!!!)  Then, Psyber-L was a signficant part of my life, and I felt I was
learning and growing faster than I could absorb.

Now, my feeling is different, and I don't know whether it is a part of what
Psyber-L is now, or if it is that I am in another phase.  Then, I was in
school.  Now, I am in *real life*.

It could be that my job is so consuming that I have had to move to a more
depersonalized psychic place in my life in general.  I would love to write
about my work.  It is so consuming, intense, passionate and emotional,
centered around one of the most significant events in life, birth.

But my work is centered around the birth parent, most frequently the birth
mother, who has chosen to relinquish her child to adoptive parents.  While I
am in absolute awe of these birth parents, my *job* is to help them through
the trauma of this process... to help them experience the grief (and phases
of it) to some level of acceptance.  I find myself on the unique journey of
each birth parent I work with, experiencing incredible highs and lows.  It is
bittersweet.

It seems so parallel to what I absorbed from Psyber-L in the months I was
more active and less lurkive!   It seems so Jungian, in some sense, existence
in both  deep and shallow spaces simultaneously.

But, from a personal level, there is still some part of me that says, hey,
notice me in this Psyber place :) !!!  When I write a post and it falls into
a black hole I move back into some place of indifference, thinking, oh, I'm
really not a part of this.

Whatever *this* is ;)

Just some ramblings.

Sheryl :)

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:41:22 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Linux Odyssey
In-Reply-To:  <378d390c.941114571@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 02:13 PM 7/13/99 GMT, you wrote:
>Dan,
>
>you wrote:
>
>> I, too, have a computer with multiple hard drivesw and am also interestedin
>> Linux. How much trouble is it to install and use both Linux and Windows as
>> dula operating systems? Thanks.
>
>I have not done it but am in the process of exploring it
>
>I tend to use email groups for everything and my slow progress,
>is on view here:
>
>~~~
>
>Linux Odyssey
>I want a place to keep a record of my journey with the linux os,
>and keep my jotting for easy access.  I will invite a few friends
>and if you want to watch or are on this journey & want to discuss
>the whys and wherefores and tell tales of your *odyssey*, you're
>welcome to join in.
>
>To subscribe, send a message to
>linuxodyssey-subscribe@egroups.com or go to this e-group's home
>page at http://www.egroups.com/list/linuxodyssey
>
>You can also see the archives there.
>
>Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz
>
Thanks for the tip - will check out the web site.

Best wishes,

Dan Watkins

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:11:41 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert =?iso-8859-1?Q?Longpr=E9?= <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <d50b7873.24bd2ffc@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sheryl,

It's good to hear your voice again.  Like yourself, I find myself at
distance with PSYBER-L, a "very loose association."

>I've felt a very loose association within Psyber-L that I
>honestly take to be indifference or apathy by the list.

I am noticing that Dan and Nancy are "active" on this list as well as
JungCircle and Jung-L, lists which are best characterized as extended
family members.  (Did I see one of these names on the ALCHEMY list?)
Stephen, Judith and Walter are voices that I will always associate with
PSYBER-L.  Their occasional participation of late makes me think of
chrysalis ... and hibernation.  There are presences that I feel in the
background even in their awesome silences, presences such as Marie, Anita,
Charles ... all who were part of the fabled time called the dream game.
They are there, still in the background .........

>I can't put my
>finger on it, exactly, except it *feels* to me to be a lack of passion.

I wonder if that is the case.  I wonder if it isn't hesitancy.  I wonder if
it isn't a bit of fear as well.  Passion has many side effects that perhaps
are unwanted ... demands an intensity and energy that perhaps is missing at
the moment.

>Occasionally passion surfaces, as in Cheryl's post about her
>desire, or some other passion that resonates within me.
>I see some passion that ignites other members,  but has no resonance
>for me.

A reality that is NOT virtual, a reality that parallels that which we
experience in our f2f domaines as well.  Yet the lack of resonance is
harsher here because we can't sense in some way the presence of each other
without the "textual" resonances.

>But, from a personal level, there is still some part of me that says, hey,
>notice me in this Psyber place :) !!!  When I write a post and it falls into
>a black hole I move back into some place of indifference, thinking, oh, I'm
>really not a part of this.

Yes!  Notice me!

We do know the power and nature of the medium, its short-comings, and its
power of bringing us together such as no medium has yet managed to
duplicate in a "deep" manner.  Yet knowing this, we retreat.  Because we
know this, we retreat.  Perhaps not ready or willing to "dare" being
passionate, authentic, transparent and ...... (fill in the blank).

between staying and leaving
wondering what holds me still
linked to this PSYBER-L

Robert

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:07:12 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Francillon <gfrancil@CLUB-INTERNET.FR>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Really, is this the right place for discussions on such trivial subjects
as PC vs. Mac, Linux vs. Windows, hiking, etc.?

How much does this contribute to the aims and purpose of this list?

Let me just remind its very title: "Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace"
which seems to me to be reasonably explicit!

Grard Francillon


Nancy Smith wrote:
>
> catcher at times wrote:
>
> > Does this mean that you guys _don't_ have a Mac? Maybe this
> > sounds weird, but I thought that everyone with some sense had a
> > Mac - guess I'm just byassed.
>
> N: Am I missing a joke?  I was told last year (and read) that 80-90% of
> computer users has
> some sort of IBM compatible.  I sorta wanted a Mac, but also thought I
> might want to exchange
> floppies and write with others.
>   And what was that last word you used, Renata?
> >
> > renata (sorry to but in, by the way)
>
> N: Don't think there is an other way (espec. now that I'm trying to keep
> my phone line free
> for house repair people to reach me and so puting posts in "send
> later".)
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> > here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:50:01 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <d50b7873.24bd2ffc@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl, all,

What a stimulating post!

I have a passion for the psyche, and for cyberspace, and I still
think the combination of the two is a potent mixture, as in
mixing whatever they mix to make nuclear bombs.  Cyberspace since
I first found it has transformed.  It is now i big thing on Wall
Street, it is now inhabited by millions more people...

There is a lot more about psyche on the web... the great Jung
sites, and so on, alchemy, Jung, psychodrama mailing lists...

I feel grabbed by the soul, psyche, unconscious and the
collective morass of abstract, the symbolic and the sacred that
we enter here.  I have all the passion of a Columbus in the face
of these unchartered depths.

We transformed by this medium, as we have been by all new media,
but this time it is more radical.  We speak of "entering" the
medium rather than it coming into us.  We are able to
*experience* the transformation, while previously we have seen it
in the rear view mirror.  This medium has transformed the past.
We now can see that there ways always a cyberspace... from the
day we painted a symbol on a  stone wall, it was just too thin
and slow for us to name it.

Sheryl, I ache with the passion, damn it!  I feel frustrated with
my ability to absorb and not express or be seen.  So I resonate
with your comment about absorbtion here...

> Occasionally passion surfaces, as in Cheryl's post about her desire, or some
> other passion that resonates within me.   I see some passion that ignites
> other members,  but has no resonance for me.  I don't know if this is because
> I expended passion I felt for Psyber-L when I first signed on (only a couple
> of years ago?), and by accident stumbled into PWP (whatever that turned out
> to be!!!)  Then, Psyber-L was a signficant part of my life, and I felt I was
> learning and growing faster than I could absorb.

Good to hear where you are at... and how passionate you were.
PWP (Psybernet Web Project)  It must be longer than two years
ago!  It is:

96/08/16 03:04 209
PWP: Psybernet ~ Web Project. Description & Invitation

I was naive I think to try such a thing here, and felt relief
when i declared the thing over.  However the inspiration is still
with me... to *collaborate* to learn and to write up thes
psyberspace insights.

One thing I have learnt is that such projects take more energy
than I can muster *while I have a full time job*  ... somehow I
always hope ... I have the Internet Dream ... that I can quit or
radically reduce my day job and somehow work in psyberspace... I
wish.

One of the reasons that I have not launched another Dream Event
is that I simply cant participate in something like that, work,
and have a family life.  At that time I did it by not sleeping
much, but my body is not so willing anymore.  Charles who
co-hosted that event was onto it full time as well... that sort
of hosting boosts a mailing list into orbit.  Charles (greetings
if you see this) now has a *job* and hence is somewhat quiet!

In a quieter way I have been working away on these things though.


In addition to Psyber-L I am in another group, a few of us who
meet f2f as well... we share our *noosphere probes* as i like to
call them.  Barry, some of you may remember him from here
has just launched his online counselling,

http://www.counselling.co.nz

Dan on this list has his

http://www.groupsense.co.nz

Brian is doing amazing research into online education and media.

It is a privilege to be part of such explorations, huge learning.

~~~

I have mentioned that with Dan I am writing a Roles Online paper,
we are at the point where we would like others to come in on
that... as you can see it is a sort of PWP thing, but much more
focussed and measured. I will post a more detailed invitation
soon.

~~~

I have learnt that doing these things together in a group
involves quite a lot ... and have been busy writing, reading,
thinking, talking about *online collaboration*  and I have a
mailing list for that as well... I want to open that up more
publicly soon as well.  It is a sort of meta discussion about
collaboration ...

~~~


> It could be that my job is so consuming that I have had to move to a more
> depersonalized psychic place in my life in general.  I would love to write
> about my work.  It is so consuming, intense, passionate and emotional,
> centered around one of the most significant events in life, birth.

Please do write and post here!

> But my work is centered around the birth parent, most frequently the birth
> mother, who has chosen to relinquish her child to adoptive parents.  While I
> am in absolute awe of these birth parents, my *job* is to help them through
> the trauma of this process... to help them experience the grief (and phases
> of it) to some level of acceptance.  I find myself on the unique journey of
> each birth parent I work with, experiencing incredible highs and lows.  It is
> bittersweet.

I have some experience of this with birth mothers who have come
to me for psychotherapy.  I am thinking of some who came for
quite different reasons but then were hit by the grief of having
adopted a baby out years ago.  It is major stuff!

> It seems so parallel to what I absorbed from Psyber-L in the months I was
> more active and less lurkive!   It seems so Jungian, in some sense, existence
> in both  deep and shallow spaces simultaneously.

lurkive!

Love it!

> But, from a personal level, there is still some part of me that says, hey,
> notice me in this Psyber place :) !!!  When I write a post and it falls into
> a black hole I move back into some place of indifference, thinking, oh, I'm
> really not a part of this.

Ok!  You are noticed this time...

What i have learnt is that some posts get a big response, and
others seem to get nothing... I can feel the frustration of
that... the pain sometimes.

On the other side, it has been interesting when, occasionally, I
meet a lurker in real life, Dan, Brian or Josh or Miles and
discover they have read every post and know us all!  Not that
they always read every post, but sometimes they read  a swag of
them.

> Whatever *this* is ;)

Yeah, what is it?

> Just some ramblings.

Just?

> Sheryl :)


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:51:34 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         lwageck <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What kind of ....
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Gerard,
Although I myself do not have enough expertise to
even have a discussion or a conversation about a
computer -- I can, however, discern how it *does*
indeed relate to this discussion group.

After all, via computer is how we are all talking
right now, that is obvious. It also follows logic
and reason, that any talk/discussion of computers
(whether I or one other person likes it or not) is
bound to be relevant, since this is "Psber-L.

I suppose, using your implied logic, that a list
may talk about (for example) "The Psychology of
Human  Verbal Communication"  it would be trivial,
inappropriate to discuss what part the neurons
in the brain had to do with human communication?

Besides, geez.  Lighten up.

Hardware/ software.  Grey matter, brain,
movement, speech -- and/or emotion, feeling
and/or "consciousness".  We can't limit this
discussion topics to such a small box that we
need a "Syllabus" and/or "Schedule of Topics"
handed out to us when we enroll.

All  threads/postings can't please everybody.
But to claim asking somebody else "what kind
of computer you have" is "trivial" talk, as
you said??  Off hand, if it were me who were
so irritable, I'd get more aquainted with
my delete key [found on your computer].

When things start getting so black and white
with strict guidelines omitting talk of computers
on a list named:  Psyber-L "Exploring the
Psyche in Cyberspace"....then, I'll be using
my delete key for all the dogmatics left on
the threads who think from a very small
box between his/her ears.

It's also crucial for those of us in the field of
psychology who *make a living* (ie: eat)
by using our computers 12 hours a day.
Just like a car. If one must use ones car
in ones work all day long -- I do believe,
that "what kind of car do you drive" quickly
becomes more relevant than it ever did.
Not *just* a car--and certainly not "trivial".

Differing degrees of importance of topics
varying depending on how crucial/all con-
suming or absent something is in ones every
day work/home life.  Moreever, since this
is 1999, I don't see the question "what kind
of computer do you have" disappearing any-
time soon.
 Especially not from a Psyber-L
Discussion List -- its Bound to come up.
So what? [ Boring is not the same as trivial.]

Linda ;-)
----------
Linda Wageck, BS, MA, ADC-III-Diplomate
      LCDC, ICADC, CTAC-ACP Advanced Clinical Practitioner
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>Really, is this the right place for discussions on such trivial subjects
>as PC vs. Mac, Linux vs. Windows, hiking, etc.?
>
>How much does this contribute to the aims and purpose of this list?
>
>Let me just remind its very title: "Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace"
>which seems to me to be reasonably explicit!
>
>G=E9rard Francillon
>
>
>Nancy Smith wrote:
>>
>> catcher at times wrote:
>>
>> > Does this mean that you guys _don't_ have a Mac? Maybe this
>> > sounds weird, but I thought that everyone with some sense had a
>> > Mac - guess I'm just byassed.
>>
>> N: Am I missing a joke?  I was told last year (and read) that 80-90% of
>> computer users has
>> some sort of IBM compatible.  I sorta wanted a Mac, but also thought I
>> might want to exchange
>> floppies and write with others.
>>   And what was that last word you used, Renata?
>> >
>> > renata (sorry to but in, by the way)
>>
>> N: Don't think there is an other way (espec. now that I'm trying to keep
>> my phone line free
>> for house repair people to reach me and so puting posts in "send
>> later".)
>> >
>> >
>> > ____________________________________________________________
>> > Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>> > here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:12:27 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <378D0A10.92D7DD06@club-internet.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Grard

Good to hear from you again... are you still in the nudist
village?  Did you ever get the Jungian books, insights you were
seeking?

I have changed the subject line from:

  Re: What kind of computer do you have?
  Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:07:12 +0200


> Really, is this the right place for discussions on such trivial subjects
> as PC vs. Mac, Linux vs. Windows, hiking, etc.?

I feel a scared of a sort of usener degeneration when I see these
topics as well, even though i have been contributing to them.

Can we fully divorce the technology from cyberspace?  Soul from
body?  Perhaps the discussion involves that theme which is more
ontopic.

For me the topic was also linked to the word *religion*, and with
the wonderful subject line "There is a God!"...

There is a real sense of belonging that people get from being in
a hardware or software cult.  What is that about?

I cant feel it with respect to hardware, but I do get a tingle
from the GNU/linux phenomena... not unlike when I first
encountered flower power! heheheh

> How much does this contribute to the aims and purpose of this list?
>
> Let me just remind its very title: "Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace"
> which seems to me to be reasonably explicit!

Here (below) is a quote from the list description, which might
help, and of course can evolve in the light of discussion here,
as it has many times.


Walter


~~~

= Purpose =

The purpose of Psyber-L is to learn experientially about the
psyche in cyberspace. As all online discussion contributes to the
unfolding of the psyche a wide range of topics is suitable.
Participants are encouraged to make posts about the process and
how the psyche manifests and can be nurtured in cyberspace. The
comment and learning is not kept separate from the discussion, it
forms an integral part of it.

The list is an environment in which its participants can
experiment and learn from experience about the scope of online
interaction for ethical psychological depth work.
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:11:04 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         lwageck <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

================================================================
Re:  First page or so of  Walter's response
below --Ditto, ditto.   I second that motion.

PS:   My quote for the month:

      "After all talk of rightdoing and wrongdoing,
       There is a Place.
        I'll Meet You There"
                                        (-Rumi)
Cyberspace,
perhaps, Walter??
Linda ;-)
-------
Linda Wageck, BS, MA, ADC-III-Diplomate
     LCDC,ICADC, CTAC-ACP Adv. Clin. Practnr.
===============================================================


>Sheryl, all,
>
>What a stimulating post!
>
>I have a passion for the psyche, and for cyberspace, and I still
>think the combination of the two is a potent mixture, as in
>mixing whatever they mix to make nuclear bombs.  Cyberspace since
>I first found it has transformed.  It is now i big thing on Wall
>Street, it is now inhabited by millions more people...
>
>There is a lot more about psyche on the web... the great Jung
>sites, and so on, alchemy, Jung, psychodrama mailing lists...
>
>I feel grabbed by the soul, psyche, unconscious and the
>collective morass of abstract, the symbolic and the sacred that
>we enter here.  I have all the passion of a Columbus in the face
>of these unchartered depths.
>
>We transformed by this medium, as we have been by all new media,
>but this time it is more radical.  We speak of "entering" the
>medium rather than it coming into us.  We are able to
>*experience* the transformation, while previously we have seen it
>in the rear view mirror.  This medium has transformed the past.
>We now can see that there ways always a cyberspace... from the
>day we painted a symbol on a  stone wall, it was just too thin
>and slow for us to name it.
>
>Sheryl, I ache with the passion, damn it!  I feel frustrated with
>my ability to absorb and not express or be seen.  So I resonate
>with your comment about absorbtion here...
>
>> Occasionally passion surfaces, as in Cheryl's post about her desire, or some
>> other passion that resonates within me.   I see some passion that ignites
>> other members,  but has no resonance for me.  I don't know if this is because
>> I expended passion I felt for Psyber-L when I first signed on (only a couple
>> of years ago?), and by accident stumbled into PWP (whatever that turned out
>> to be!!!)  Then, Psyber-L was a signficant part of my life, and I felt I was
>> learning and growing faster than I could absorb.
>
>Good to hear where you are at... and how passionate you were.
>PWP (Psybernet Web Project)  It must be longer than two years
>ago!  It is:
>
>96/08/16 03:04 209
>PWP: Psybernet ~ Web Project. Description & Invitation
>
>I was naive I think to try such a thing here, and felt relief
>when i declared the thing over.  However the inspiration is still
>with me... to *collaborate* to learn and to write up thes
>psyberspace insights.
>
>One thing I have learnt is that such projects take more energy
>than I can muster *while I have a full time job*  ... somehow I
>always hope ... I have the Internet Dream ... that I can quit or
>radically reduce my day job and somehow work in psyberspace... I
>wish.
>
>One of the reasons that I have not launched another Dream Event
>is that I simply cant participate in something like that, work,
>and have a family life.  At that time I did it by not sleeping
>much, but my body is not so willing anymore.  Charles who
>co-hosted that event was onto it full time as well... that sort
>of hosting boosts a mailing list into orbit.  Charles (greetings
>if you see this) now has a *job* and hence is somewhat quiet!
>
>In a quieter way I have been working away on these things though.
>
>
>In addition to Psyber-L I am in another group, a few of us who
>meet f2f as well... we share our *noosphere probes* as i like to
>call them.  Barry, some of you may remember him from here
>has just launched his online counselling,
>
>http://www.counselling.co.nz
>
>Dan on this list has his
>
>http://www.groupsense.co.nz
>
>Brian is doing amazing research into online education and media.
>
>It is a privilege to be part of such explorations, huge learning.
>
>~~~
>
>I have mentioned that with Dan I am writing a Roles Online paper,
>we are at the point where we would like others to come in on
>that... as you can see it is a sort of PWP thing, but much more
>focussed and measured. I will post a more detailed invitation
>soon.
>
>~~~
>
>I have learnt that doing these things together in a group
>involves quite a lot ... and have been busy writing, reading,
>thinking, talking about *online collaboration*  and I have a
>mailing list for that as well... I want to open that up more
>publicly soon as well.  It is a sort of meta discussion about
>collaboration ...
>
>~~~
>
>
>> It could be that my job is so consuming that I have had to move to a more
>> depersonalized psychic place in my life in general.  I would love to write
>> about my work.  It is so consuming, intense, passionate and emotional,
>> centered around one of the most significant events in life, birth.
>
>Please do write and post here!
>
>> But my work is centered around the birth parent, most frequently the birth
>> mother, who has chosen to relinquish her child to adoptive parents.  While I
>> am in absolute awe of these birth parents, my *job* is to help them through
>> the trauma of this process... to help them experience the grief (and phases
>> of it) to some level of acceptance.  I find myself on the unique journey of
>> each birth parent I work with, experiencing incredible highs and lows.  It is
>> bittersweet.
>
>I have some experience of this with birth mothers who have come
>to me for psychotherapy.  I am thinking of some who came for
>quite different reasons but then were hit by the grief of having
>adopted a baby out years ago.  It is major stuff!
>
>> It seems so parallel to what I absorbed from Psyber-L in the months I was
>> more active and less lurkive!   It seems so Jungian, in some sense, existence
>> in both  deep and shallow spaces simultaneously.
>
>lurkive!
>
>Love it!
>
>> But, from a personal level, there is still some part of me that says, hey,
>> notice me in this Psyber place :) !!!  When I write a post and it falls into
>> a black hole I move back into some place of indifference, thinking, oh, I'm
>> really not a part of this.
>
>Ok!  You are noticed this time...
>
>What i have learnt is that some posts get a big response, and
>others seem to get nothing... I can feel the frustration of
>that... the pain sometimes.
>
>On the other side, it has been interesting when, occasionally, I
>meet a lurker in real life, Dan, Brian or Josh or Miles and
>discover they have read every post and know us all!  Not that
>they always read every post, but sometimes they read  a swag of
>them.
>
>> Whatever *this* is ;)
>
>Yeah, what is it?
>
>> Just some ramblings.
>
>Just?
>
>> Sheryl :)
>
>
>Walter
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:15:49 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         lwageck <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Purpose
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Walter,
  Ruffffffff,

Linda    {:-D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>G=E9rard
>
>Good to hear from you again... are you still in the nudist
>village?  Did you ever get the Jungian books, insights you were
>seeking?
>
>I have changed the subject line from:
>
>  Re: What kind of computer do you have?
>  Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:07:12 +0200
>
>
>> Really, is this the right place for discussions on such trivial subjects
>> as PC vs. Mac, Linux vs. Windows, hiking, etc.?
>
>I feel a scared of a sort of usener degeneration when I see these
>topics as well, even though i have been contributing to them.
>
>Can we fully divorce the technology from cyberspace?  Soul from
>body?  Perhaps the discussion involves that theme which is more
>ontopic.
>
>For me the topic was also linked to the word *religion*, and with
>the wonderful subject line "There is a God!"...
>
>There is a real sense of belonging that people get from being in
>a hardware or software cult.  What is that about?
>
>I cant feel it with respect to hardware, but I do get a tingle
>from the GNU/linux phenomena... not unlike when I first
>encountered flower power! heheheh
>
>> How much does this contribute to the aims and purpose of this list?
>>
>> Let me just remind its very title: "Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace"
>> which seems to me to be reasonably explicit!
>
>Here (below) is a quote from the list description, which might
>help, and of course can evolve in the light of discussion here,
>as it has many times.
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>~~~
>
>=3D Purpose =3D
>
>The purpose of Psyber-L is to learn experientially about the
>psyche in cyberspace. As all online discussion contributes to the
>unfolding of the psyche a wide range of topics is suitable.
>Participants are encouraged to make posts about the process and
>how the psyche manifests and can be nurtured in cyberspace. The
>comment and learning is not kept separate from the discussion, it
>forms an integral part of it.
>
>The list is an environment in which its participants can
>experiment and learn from experience about the scope of online
>interaction for ethical psychological depth work.
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:49:29 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Purpose
In-Reply-To:  <199907142318.SAA22014@deliverator.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Linda,

>   Ruffffffff,


Can you expand on that?  hehehe


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:39:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
In-Reply-To:  <378D0A10.92D7DD06@club-internet.fr>
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All,

Neal Stephenson's character in Cryptonomicon is looking through a window at
Bletchley Park c. 1942, and realizes what he is looking at:

"They are vacuum tubes.  Hundreds of them.  More tubes in one place than
Waterhouse has ever seen.

                             _____________


"It is no wonder, then, that men in the room accept the burning of the tape so
calmly.  That strip of paper, a technology as old as the pyramids, is merely a
vessel for a stream of information. When it passes through the machine, the
information is abstracted from it, transfigured into a pattern of pure binary
data. That the mere vessel burns is of no consequence. Ashes to ashes, dust to
dust--the data has passed out of the physical plane into the mathematical, a
higher and purer universe where different laws apply.  Laws, a few of which are
dimly and imperfectly known to Dr. Alan Mathison Turing and Dr. John von Neumann
and Dr. Rudolf von Hacklheber and a few other people Waterhouse used to hang
around with in Princeton.  Laws about which Waterhouse himself knows a thing or
two."


Page 195
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:49:22 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert =?iso-8859-1?Q?Longpr=E9?= <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <199907142313.SAA20189@deliverator.io.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hmmm-nnmmn!!!!!!!!

More non-response, especially from Walter who does seem to be making an
effort to recognize posts with some sort of response.  But then again, this
is not a new script.

Why bother writing.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:50:10 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         lwageck <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Purpose
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===========================
Be glad to  Walter, make that

   "whooooof, gggrufffff."   {->>

(now how does one "cite" that in
the Literature of the Silly (SillyLit)
orPsyberSillyLit ???

Linda ;-))
===========================
>Linda,
>
>>   Ruffffffff,
>
>
>Can you expand on that?  hehehe
>
>
>Walter
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:37:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19990714214720.00921e20@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
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Robert,

That hurts.  I am not so much making an effort as enjoying being here.

Do you think I should respond to every post?  Why is the non-response
*especially* mine?  I don't have a sense of not having responded... I may well
still have done that, as may others, a day or two or three is not that long
here... though now there is a *new* situation ... I think your post is a solid
contribution to a topic that may well flow on for a while.

> More non-response, especially from Walter who does seem to be making an
> effort to recognize posts with some sort of response.  But then again, this
> is not a new script.
>
> Why bother writing.

To be noticed?  Especially by me?  I noticed and appreciated your post... I know
it is great to be welcomed and noticed, and we could all be more generous...

I have heard a maxim for online communications... assume good will.  A non
response is just that, a space to project into... assume good will makes sense,
and ... have we covered this... I have no ill will towards you...

How are you with this now?


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:26:29 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <37946e8e.30014167@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

>we could all be more generous...
>
>a maxim for online communications... assume good will

all,

So it is like that:a continuum of generosity and will.

Seems we've been this route before, Robert. Maybe it's about
something beyond this group (for you), maybe it's not. (Honestly, I
don't know!)

I'm self-centered and I desire a response. But I don't shed anything
if I'm ignored and I gain much otherwise, whether I'm being
responsive or not. Responsive to you, or not. If my non-response in
specific instances hurts, I understand it may hurt, but that's not my
intention when I'm silent. By the way, I'm always here reading and
regarding one way or the other. It may not feel like devotion to
others, but to me that's exactly what it feels like.

***

My attitude is this: I don't dwell on yesterday's losses; rather, I
hope for gains today and tomorrow. That doesn't mean I don't miss
people, here especially, but I don't let that *missing* take a piece
out of me. And I don't beat myself about whether it should, or not.
Obviously: each to their own attitude; but ebbing isn't joyless for
me.

***

highest regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:52:02 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter and all,

Getting stronger every day...I'm living with friends in a beautiful setting
which feeds me with love all around...I'm sitting quietly with what I have
experienced allowing it to permeate my psyche but I feel something emerging
to share at some point with everyone here as you all have been instrumental
in my journey...I feel as if my psyche is reformulating (another fractal
emerging called Judith)

For now really enjoying *hearing* everyone's voices again here and
Stephen's and my work together...such a learning experience

In gratitude
Judith

>Stephen, Judith
>
>> Judith and I are developing a plan for a short book about what we do
>> and, also, plotting how the book would be used as a manual for
>> experiential learning. Okay-
>
>Good to hear about your project... and to hear you mention such
>plans with Judith...
>
>Hoping your health is doing well Judith,
>
>
>Walter
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:18:21 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Purpose
MIME-Version: 1.0
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lwageck wrote:
>
> ==============================
> Walter,
>   Ruffffffff,
>
> Linda    {:-D

N: Very well put, Linda!

       Nancy

PS Does the Psyche giggle in Cyberspace?  If so, I think mine just did.
> ==============================

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:34:32 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
> That hurts.

N: Just wanted you to know, Walter, that I found the above statement
helpful.  I am making
a considerable effort to 'own my own feelings' by substituting such
statements for the
'talon principle' (i.e. the tendency to lash back went hurt.

  Just thought you might like to know I found your example inspiring.
(Though I haven't
always found the results of such a response so awfully satisfactory.)

  Best regards, Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:49:53 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert =?iso-8859-1?Q?Longpr=E9?= <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Fractals
In-Reply-To:  <v01550102b3b243a6afcc@[207.54.160.203]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

to a fractal called Judith,

>Getting stronger every day...I'm living with friends in a beautiful setting
>which feeds me with love all around...

For this I am truly grateful.  Somehow, I see that the feeding with love is
not a one-way activity.  It is natural and easy to feed another with love
when you are nourished in return.  I can see your smiles and hear your
words to those who "feed" you.  To continue this when there is no return is
the hardest task, an expression of "unconditional" love.

>I'm sitting quietly with what I have
>experienced allowing it to permeate my psyche but I feel something emerging
>to share at some point with everyone here as you all have been instrumental
>in my journey...

And I wonder if what I have given here to you has truly been
given/received. This medium is problematical.  Yet having now wondered
aloud, I "know" that I have indeed given and that I have indeed received
and that I have shared your journey as you have in some personal way shared
mine.

>For now really enjoying *hearing* everyone's voices again here and
>Stephen's and my work together...such a learning experience

Yes, a learning experience and a living experience.  Four things vital to
us as humans .... life, love, learning, and leaving a legacy (taken from S.
Covey who borrowed it from ???)

be well and whole,

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:09:50 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert =?iso-8859-1?Q?Longpr=E9?= <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <37946e8e.30014167@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,

>Robert,
>
>That hurts.

For that I do apologize.  I have sat for a time thinking about this, this
issue of non-response that triggers emotional affect within me.  Why is it
primarily an issue that I feel is between yourself and myself.  I noticed
that I do not find the same emotional reaction if I don't hear from
Stephen, or Bent, or others (notice that all named are males).  Why you,
Walter?  My post hurt you.  I had been hurt in not receiving a response, a
response from you.  And, "knowing" at a deeper level that in posting I
would hurt you and that it would ellicit a response, I threw out the words
and waited for what I knew would result ... and that was confirmed.  Again,
I apologize ... and I mean it.

>Do you think I should respond to every post?  Why is the non-response
>*especially* mine?

No, I do not think that this is even remotely reasonable.   Why do I make
an issue of non-response with you?  You may remember our discussion about
this before, how you mentionned some difficulty in responding "directly" to
me.  I have wondered about this and felt it.  It is not a factor of your
being the list-owner.  I belong to other lists with other male list-owners
as well as female list-owners and do not sense any of this.  This issue is
*especially* mine.  But somehow, you are entangled within the issue.  And,
I don't know if this is the place to investigate the issue, a one-to-one issue.

> ... I think your post is a solid
>contribution to a topic that may well flow on for a while.

Perhaps.

>I have heard a maxim for online communications... assume good will.  A non
>response is just that, a space to project into... assume good will makes
sense,
>and ... have we covered this... I have no ill will towards you...

I have not indicated the existence of any "ill will" at all, Walter.  What
I have indicated is more of "avoidance".  There is NO DOUBT in my mind that
you are a caring person with much good will, much gentleness here in this
PSYBER place.

>How are you with this now?

Better.  I want to add that I don't get the same affect on my JUNG-L list.
For whatever reason, non-response there is not "personal" .... strange
since it my e-child.

How are you with this now, Walter?

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:16:08 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert =?iso-8859-1?Q?Longpr=E9?= <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <v04210101b3b348666d2f@[207.54.160.50]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Stephen,

>Seems we've been this route before, Robert. Maybe it's about
>something beyond this group (for you), maybe it's not. (Honestly, I
>don't know!)

I have spoken of this in my post to Walter.  This is, in my opinion both
within the group and without the group.  It is not the group itself.

Stephen, I want to thank you for finding words of contact.  It was your
words that highlighted the fact that it isn't about the group at all.  I
wonder if this makes sense, if my words are full enough to fill in the gaps
of words unspoken.  I look forward to reading all of your posts.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:13:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19990716091051.00937100@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Robert, Walter, all,

Reading today I realize, "you never know what you can work out", and
even big breakthroughs most often start with small steps and even the
tiniest of self-revelations; glimpses really.

In your experience of Walter the-person-in-text, obviously something
is charged. I do get a sense of deja vu, and wonder if what's getting
loaded on Walter is both stuff from this list's past and also how any
male figure, especially authoritative ones, or, heck, "moderated"
ones, can be corrupted by projections of
father-boss-priest-police-military etc.

Walter, evidently, captures something and it is, as it usually is, a
case of being captured by ones' self in some 'imaginative' :-) way.
Am I close to the base, Robert?

***

Walter, there's a bit of an edge that I feel here *in a general
sense*. On one hand you've underlined what is the context for your
own personal restraint. On the other hand, the issue of restraint and
revelation with respect to Psyche is a paradox. One reason is that
naive self-revelation, persona building, and, then, spontaneous (or
considered) deep uncovering of where one is at, and what is of
immediate concern to one, are different ways of relating our selves
to each other. There are many more ways, of course. All the stuff of
Psyche and Soul.

***

I asked you direct questions last week (subject: re: Happiness) and
I've not received a response. I anticipate that it will take time.
Maybe no response will come out of it. However, there are two
resonations with this thread about dialogue (my term for it) as I
feel it.

One, is, I proposed to you an experiential process in response to
your "I have not absorbed, or rather grasped, the whole thread of
"eternal atmosphere"". Moreover, I was attempting to take you into
the personal sphere so that you might understand what I was intending
to convey via 'eternal atmosphere'. This is an aspect of the
abstract/personal continuum, imo.

Two, is that when I seek dialogue, no matter what
responsenon-response (<-solunary!) I receive, I'm going to think
something! So, when I tell you I don't know what to think, I'm also
stating my thinking is a work-in-progress on this matter.

Overall, I usually don't get my shorty shorts bunched up over
non-response but that's not the same as not having a thoughtful
internal feeling about what happens as a result of expressing my wish
to engage.

***

best to all,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:55:55 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Stephen you wrote:

<Overall, I usually don't get my shorty shorts bunched up over
non-response but that's not the same as not having a thoughtful
internal feeling about what happens as a result of expressing my wish
to engage.>

Isn't this the crux? one's *wish to engage*...My experience in the nursing
home illustrates this-dramatically...I had a roommate which was problematic
as I am a private person who *vants to be alone* alot...the good news was
that she was lucid and a nice person in a very difficult situation...the
other news was that I didn't want to feel obligated to interact so I kept
the drape between us closed off...however, interestingly she was blind so
the boundary went unnoticed... she would begin conversation and my choice
was to ignore her which challenged my rules of manners...get up and leave
the room which I couldn't do without disengaging all sorts of IV's and feed
tubes...or of course respond...it really challenged me and for a few weeks
I continued in this double bind...then somehow it shifted, my
response...now out of The Home recovering I find I am craving connection
and now that I'm out of The Home and out of danger friends breathed sighs
of relief and I see and hear from them less often...I am perfectly fine
with this but I am still craving engagement...with other people...

On-line I sometimes envision walking into a huge building and yelling out
"Hellloooo...is anybody there?" :-)

Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:07:23 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>to a fractal called Judith,

Very interesting to me, Robert, that you used this salutation...last night
I was with a friend, an astrologer, who explains astrology as fractals
which I relate to...I've used the idea that we are *equations* which are
being computed which relates to the origins of fractals and discovery of
chaos theory once the equations could be computed with the ability of the
PC...
>
>>Getting stronger every day...I'm living with friends in a beautiful setting
>>which feeds me with love all around...
>
>For this I am truly grateful.  Somehow, I see that the feeding with love is
>not a one-way activity.  It is natural and easy to feed another with love
>when you are nourished in return.  I can see your smiles and hear your
>words to those who "feed" you.  To continue this when there is no return is
>the hardest task, an expression of "unconditional" love.

Yes, often...yet I have found that the *unconditional* part really relates
to me...I remember at some point after working for years on my *stuff*
saying I've fixed all I'm going to fix...the rest is part of my charm and I
understand if you don't find it charming and need to go...it becomes a very
peaceful place of non attachment which then others seem to respoond
to...but then *giving and receiving* is the basic feedback loop of the
universe
>
>>I'm sitting quietly with what I have
>>experienced allowing it to permeate my psyche but I feel something emerging
>>to share at some point with everyone here as you all have been instrumental
>>in my journey...
>
>And I wonder if what I have given here to you has truly been
>given/received. This medium is problematical.  Yet having now wondered
>aloud, I "know" that I have indeed given and that I have indeed received
>and that I have shared your journey as you have in some personal way shared
>mine.

As I said, Robert, *you all*

>
>>For now really enjoying *hearing* everyone's voices again here and
>>Stephen's and my work together...such a learning experience
>
>Yes, a learning experience and a living experience.  Four things vital to
>us as humans .... life, love, learning, and leaving a legacy (taken from S.
>Covey who borrowed it from ???)

And play according to Stephen :-) which I am beginning to grok
>
>be well and whole,
>
>Robert

Thanks, Robert
Judith
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:26:28 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gerard, you wrote:

>Really, is this the right place for discussions on such trivial subjects
>as PC vs. Mac, Linux vs. Windows, hiking, etc.?

I guess my response depends on how long you have been a list
member...forgive if I missed this...that said

It seems to me that life has it's trivalities and sometimes these serve a
very important function...yes we are engaged here in an adventure called
Psyber-L and we have over the time I've been here confronted very dicey
moments which at least in my perspective have forged closer relationships
so when Lynda, a newer member of the group, engaged playfully in revealing
she watches tv using a mirror, to which Walter responded about a card he
had which allows him to watch it on his PC, I think this is ultimately
about engagement which has to do with deep Psyche...plus a bit of useful
information emerged...

>
>How much does this contribute to the aims and purpose of this list?

One of the issues with a list is how much do we take to backchanneling
particularly off topic stuff...I have no sense of how much of that goes on
among us, but I for one know I have a greater knowing of Linda (Linda
excuse me talking *about* you here for the moment) through this exchange
and tho I don't know where it will lead, there is a connection made at some
level which will have some sort of life here...it becomes an experiencial
moment...a long time ago we went through a period of the women on the list
engaging deep psyche *experiencially* and the men for the most part talking
*about* the deep psyche...we moved through that time and the list
experience is richer for it IMHO...

Regards,
Judith


>
>Let me just remind its very title: "Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace"
>which seems to me to be reasonably explicit!
>
>G=E9rard Francillon
>
>
>Nancy Smith wrote:
>>
>> catcher at times wrote:
>>
>> > Does this mean that you guys _don't_ have a Mac? Maybe this
>> > sounds weird, but I thought that everyone with some sense had a
>> > Mac - guess I'm just byassed.
>>
>> N: Am I missing a joke?  I was told last year (and read) that 80-90% of
>> computer users has
>> some sort of IBM compatible.  I sorta wanted a Mac, but also thought I
>> might want to exchange
>> floppies and write with others.
>>   And what was that last word you used, Renata?
>> >
>> > renata (sorry to but in, by the way)
>>
>> N: Don't think there is an other way (espec. now that I'm trying to keep
>> my phone line free
>> for house repair people to reach me and so puting posts in "send
>> later".)
>> >
>> >
>> > ____________________________________________________________
>> > Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>> > here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:50:58 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
To Judith from Linda,
Uh, wuz that a compliment
or an insult?

I'm still half asleep.I take Fridays off, and my
heart doesn't start beating til noon...
[heh,heh]

Senile, but present and accounted
 for, proud to say pulse still being,

Regards,
Linda;-)
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
 Gerard, you wrote:
>
>>Really, is this the right place for discussions on such trivial subjects
>>as PC vs. Mac, Linux vs. Windows, hiking, etc.?
>
> I guess my response depends on how long you have been a list
> member...forgive if I missed this...that said
>
> It seems to me that life has it's trivalities and sometimes these serve a
> very important function...yes we are engaged here in an adventure called
> Psyber-L and we have over the time I've been here confronted very dicey
> moments which at least in my perspective have forged closer relationships
> so when Lynda, a newer member of the group, engaged playfully in revealin=
g
> she watches tv using a mirror, to which Walter responded about a card he
> had which allows him to watch it on his PC, I think this is ultimately
> about engagement which has to do with deep Psyche...plus a bit of useful
> information emerged...
>
>>
>>How much does this contribute to the aims and purpose of this list?
>
> One of the issues with a list is how much do we take to backchanneling
> particularly off topic stuff...I have no sense of how much of that goes o=
n
> among us, but I for one know I have a greater knowing of Linda (Linda
> excuse me talking *about* you here for the moment) through this exchange
> and tho I don't know where it will lead, there is a connection made at so=
me
> level which will have some sort of life here...it becomes an experiencial
> moment...a long time ago we went through a period of the women on the lis=
t
> engaging deep psyche *experiencially* and the men for the most part talki=
ng
> *about* the deep psyche...we moved through that time and the list
> experience is richer for it IMHO...
>
> Regards,
> Judith
>
>
>>
>>Let me just remind its very title: "Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace"
>>which seems to me to be reasonably explicit!
>>
>>G=E9rard Francillon
>>
>>
>>Nancy Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> catcher at times wrote:
>>>
>>> > Does this mean that you guys _don't_ have a Mac? Maybe this
>>> > sounds weird, but I thought that everyone with some sense had a
>>> > Mac - guess I'm just byassed.
>>>
>>> N: Am I missing a joke?  I was told last year (and read) that 80-90% of
>>> computer users has
>>> some sort of IBM compatible.  I sorta wanted a Mac, but also thought I
>>> might want to exchange
>>> floppies and write with others.
>>>   And what was that last word you used, Renata?
>>> >
>>> > renata (sorry to but in, by the way)
>>>
>>> N: Don't think there is an other way (espec. now that I'm trying to kee=
p
>>> my phone line free
>>> for house repair people to reach me and so puting posts in "send
>>> later".)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>> > Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>> > here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:44:08 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Judith,
  I am glad to hear from you and know you are healing.  When you are
long silence
I begin to worry.
  Somehow the way you write of your environment makes me almost envy you
(despite the cost,
which I know must be heavy in many ways you spare us.)

  Blessings,   Nancy

Judith Buerkel wrote:
>
> Walter and all,
>
> Getting stronger every day...I'm living with friends in a beautiful setting
> which feeds me with love all around...I'm sitting quietly with what I have
> experienced allowing it to permeate my psyche but I feel something emerging
> to share at some point with everyone here as you all have been instrumental
> in my journey...I feel as if my psyche is reformulating (another fractal
> emerging called Judith)
>
> For now really enjoying *hearing* everyone's voices again here and
> Stephen's and my work together...such a learning experience
>
> In gratitude
> Judith
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:57:47 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <v04210101b3b513cddcca@[207.54.181.97]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All, especially everyone who posted during th night while i was a
sleep!

It is now Saturday morning here, and I have just got up.  It is
the last day of our 2 week ski holiday.  Kate's brother, the two
boys and the others have all gone and we are off today... back to
Christchurch and our busy lives.

I have glanced through the wonderful posts and appreciate your
response to me very much Robert, and good to hear you writing
<heheh> Judith.

Kate is in the bath and I am cooking breakfast and then we will
pack up and go... Then re-enter, catch up with Rebecca, mail,
papers phone mesages... life in the real world.

I don't want her to walk down the stairs and see me
computering... I AM cooking breakfast...

However I will be back here when i get the chance!

I love being here in this Psyber-L


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:48:39 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 7/14/99 4:51:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> Sheryl, all,
>
>  What a stimulating post!

Thank you, Walter :)

I had some points I wanted to address to you about my work with birth
parents, but then, after reading the posts of today, I'm thinking, hmmm,
something weird about Psyber-L is going on again with me!

Now... how did what I wrote about my experience and feelings about Psyber-L
make the turns it has... about Robert and you, Walter, some involvement from
Stephen, but exactly what is not in my knowledge base.

So, translated to a rl situation, this comes to my mind:  I walked into a
room of a group of people I have known off and on for what seems like quite
awhile.  They are gathered in groups of two and three, according to their
interests.  One of the members, the person who has welcomed me, asks a
question about what the group means to the members.  I think for a moment,
feel a need to share some of my thoughts about what the group has meant to
me, and compare it to what is going on in my life.  The welcomer thanks me
warmly and genuinely for sharing my thoughts, and I feel some eagerness to
share more!

Based on the next Psyber-L responses, though, my interpretation of is on of
two scenarios:

#1  Once again, I have somehow triggered emotional responses in others in
past Psyber-L interaction that have nothing to do with me.  That is and has
been one of the most disturbing aspects of my experience with Psyber-L.  I
feel like, huh?  It's a disoriented feeling.  My post stimulated some
response, but it's like a race started and I'm still standing at the
beginning line not knowing the direction everyone else is running!

Only, on some level, I feel like I shouted *GO!* which began the race, only I
didn't know that's what I did, and that's the spooky part.

#2  When I made my remarks to this group (remember, we are all gathered in
the room, groups of twos and threes), as I stood in front of everyone and
spoke, I didn't realize that I had mustard all over my T shirt from a Big Mac
I'd eaten earlier.  So, the welcomer responded to me kindly, as the rest of
the group turned away, in some embarrassment for me, and continued talking
amongst themselves.

To me, this is a weird thing about Psyber-L.

Sheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:48:30 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?  And what's your sign(s)?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Answers to questions asked in Psyber-L at various times which I haven't
answered in the past but always thought I might:

I have a (new) two month old Gateway which has a whole bunch of gigs,
upgraded sound speakers, and an upgraded monitor.  I think I can go rent
DVDs, and could watch them on my computer.  But I understand that I might
have to move my mouse every 15 minutes or the screen saver would come on.

I'm INFP.

I know a some about astrology, enough to know that the little I caught of the
Julienne episode, I suspected she was placing too much emphasis on it's
meaning, and it was contributing to a lack of internal locus of control I
sensed in her.  My sun is Pisces, my moon is Aries, and my ascendant is
Capricorn.  So I am a transcendent, emotionally challenging, take charge kind
of person.  Or, if looked at in another way, an astrological mess :)

So what signs are everyone else here in Psyber-L?  (just trying to engage,
Judith ;)

Sheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:33:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?  And what's your sign(s)?
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

=============================================
 Sheryl & All,

Hi, Sheryl!  Good to hear from you.

Well, I guess I'llhave to jump in the the astrological
stuff...I think Sheryl and I both picked up something
somebody (don't remember who) brought up about
astrology.
Anyway, I'm a triple Sagittarius. Sag Sun, Sag Rising,
and ascendant is Sag, etc.  Which either makes me
the most spiritual, travel loving, educated guru ones
ever met, or the biggest flake. [Take your pick!;-)]

I don't know much about astrology really, but from
what I hear, a triple Sagittarius is rare.  Probably
for the best [heh, heh].

Just my 2 cents.

Linda ;-)
email:  lwageck@io.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINDA D. WAGECK, BS, MA, ADC-III-DIPLOMATE, LCDC
           ICADC, CTAC-ACP-ADVANCED CLINICAL PRACTITIONER
Executive Director:  Austin Independent Assessments (AIA)
President:  Addiction Prog/Personnel Investigation Services (APPIS)
Owner:  A/D Professional Assessments Services Online (ADPASO)
           ~ Over Thirty Years in the Neuropsychology, Behavioral
              Medicine, Addictions Counseling and Related Field(s) ~
                [A dignitifed way of saying I'm retiring before I drop]
=======================================================


> Answers to questions asked in Psyber-L at various times which I haven't
> answered in the past but always thought I might:
>
> I have a (new) two month old Gateway which has a whole bunch of gigs,
> upgraded sound speakers, and an upgraded monitor.  I think I can go rent
> DVDs, and could watch them on my computer.  But I understand that I might
> have to move my mouse every 15 minutes or the screen saver would come on.
>
> I'm INFP.
>
> I know a some about astrology, enough to know that the little I caught of the
> Julienne episode, I suspected she was placing too much emphasis on it's
> meaning, and it was contributing to a lack of internal locus of control I
> sensed in her.  My sun is Pisces, my moon is Aries, and my ascendant is
> Capricorn.  So I am a transcendent, emotionally challenging, take charge kind
> of person.  Or, if looked at in another way, an astrological mess :)
>
> So what signs are everyone else here in Psyber-L?  (just trying to engage,
> Judith ;)
>
> Sheryl
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:31:22 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

========================================
Hi  Walter and List gang!
Just wanted to share this article with all
list mates on PsyberL -- I got it from
Wired News on Friday, July 16, 1999
Enjoy!    -Linda

W I R E D   N E W S
- - - - - - - - - -
Li'l Kid Saved by the Net
     Wired News Report

A 3-year-old Georgia boy has a poison control worker and the Net to
thank for saving his life as a remote diagnosis averted a potential
tragedy.

The boy (whose name has not been released) ate four berries from an
unidentified plant. The boy's panic-stricken parents, Jim and Jennifer
Dennis, contacted the state Poison Control Center, who were unable to
identify the plant and referred the parents to a county agricultural
specialist.

The specialist went to the location of the plants, took pictures with a
digital camera, and sent the images over the Internet to the University
of Georgia's Herbarium for identification.

The plant was quickly identified as the poisonous American Nightshade,
or Solanum americanum, which can be fatal for small children.

"The first picture was a pretty good one, and we knew it was Solanum
americanum," said Patrick Sweeney, curator of the Herbarium. "But
identifying a plant with a digital image is not straightforward thing."

Based on the picture, Sweeney and another specialist found the plant in
their library, a process that took less than seven minutes, according
officials from the University of Georgia. Sweeney emailed the poison
control center, which alerted the parents to the danger.

"Things in this plant family are poisonous," Sweeney said. "We knew then
that we had a problem. We suggested they take this kid somewhere pretty
quickly."

Once the plant was identified, the child's parents took him to an
emergency room where he was treated successfully, and released the
following day in good health.

The technology used to transmit the images was made through Distance
Diagnostics through Digital Imaging Project, a joint venture of the
plant pathology department at the university, and the Office of
Information Technology.
----------------------------
Have a comment on this article?
Send it.
- - - - - - - - - -
W I R E D   N E W S
   Wired News is a real-time news service offering news
   briefs and in-depth reporting on politics, business, culture,
   and technology. For the most up-to-date coverage on the
   digital world, go to ...
   http://www.wired.com/news/
-------------
   You are receiving this email because a friend or acquaintance
   sent it to you. If you no longer wish to receive these messages,
   please contact the sender, and not Wired News.

   Copyright 1999 Wired Digital, Inc.
--------------------------------
Well, that's the first time I've read or heard
of that -- glad the child is okay!

Linda ;-)
---------------------------------
LINDA D. WAGECK, BS, MA, ADC-III-DIPLOMATE, LCDC
           ICADC, CTAC-ACP-ADVANCED CLINICAL PRACTITIONER
Executive Director:  Austin Independent Assessments (AIA)
President:  Addiction Prog/Personnel Investigation Services (APPIS)
Owner:  A/D Professional Assessments Services Online (ADPASO)
=====================================================

> All, especially everyone who posted during th night while i was a
> sleep!
>
> It is now Saturday morning here, and I have just got up.  It is
> the last day of our 2 week ski holiday.  Kate's brother, the two
> boys and the others have all gone and we are off today... back to
> Christchurch and our busy lives.
>
> I have glanced through the wonderful posts and appreciate your
> response to me very much Robert, and good to hear you writing
> <heheh> Judith.
>
> Kate is in the bath and I am cooking breakfast and then we will
> pack up and go... Then re-enter, catch up with Rebecca, mail,
> papers phone mesages... life in the real world.
>
> I don't want her to walk down the stairs and see me
> computering... I AM cooking breakfast...
>
> However I will be back here when i get the chance!
>
> I love being here in this Psyber-L
>
>
> Walter
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:41:26 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19990716085033.0094f320@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert

> I apologize ... and I mean it.

Thanks.  I like the reflection on all of this and will hang in
with it... to find my part in this too.

Stephen's reflection on this along the lines of it being about
something beyond this group makes sense to me, I think it is
*always* related to the beyond, to the family of origin, to
birth, to the archetypal, but that does not mean it is not also
immediate and real in the now.

> Why do I make
> an issue of non-response with you?  You may remember our discussion about
> this before, how you mentionned some difficulty in responding "directly" to
> me.

I do recall it and this is perhaps another instance of that...  I
must look up what that was about.  This time I can say that I
wanted to respond directly to Sheryl... I'd started before I had
your post

> This issue is
> *especially* mine.  But somehow, you are entangled within the issue.  And,
> I don't know if this is the place to investigate the issue, a one-to-one issue.

I would prefer to keep at this in the list... and it is worth
doing, from my point of view.  I agree i have a part in it.

> > ... I think your post is a solid
> >contribution to a topic that may well flow on for a while.
>
> Perhaps.

I think I will reply to it!  heheh


> I have not indicated the existence of any "ill will" at all, Walter.  What
> I have indicated is more of "avoidance".  There is NO DOUBT in my mind that
> you are a caring person with much good will, much gentleness here in this
> PSYBER place.

Thanks.

> How are you with this now, Walter?

Fine.

More to come somewhere somehow.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:06:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <v04210101b3b513cddcca@[207.54.181.97]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen, Robert, all,

> Reading today I realize, "you never know what you can work out", and
> even big breakthroughs most often start with small steps and even the
> tiniest of self-revelations; glimpses really.
>
> In your experience of Walter the-person-in-text, obviously something
> is charged. I do get a sense of deja vu, and wonder if what's getting
> loaded on Walter is both stuff from this list's past and also how any
> male figure, especially authoritative ones, or, heck, "moderated"
> ones, can be corrupted by projections of
> father-boss-priest-police-military etc.

Occasionally i feel that, and then work not to take it
personally... as well as looking at how *in the role of host
(whatever) invite that, in other words look at my own
countertrasferential stuff, to put it in psychotherapy jargon.

However i don't feel an authority projection from you Robert, at
my end it is something more like "brother" ... I had a brother of
course, and there is a lot to that! More for me to explore
here... but i hope it also flows into Stephen's reflections and
invitations:

> Walter, evidently, captures something and it is, as it usually is, a
> case of being captured by ones' self in some 'imaginative' :-) way.
> Am I close to the base, Robert?
>
> ***


> Walter, there's a bit of an edge that I feel here *in a general
> sense*. On one hand you've underlined what is the context for your
> own personal restraint. On the other hand, the issue of restraint and
> revelation with respect to Psyche is a paradox. One reason is that
> naive self-revelation, persona building, and, then, spontaneous (or
> considered) deep uncovering of where one is at, and what is of
> immediate concern to one, are different ways of relating our selves
> to each other. There are many more ways, of course. All the stuff of
> Psyche and Soul.

I have been speaking about two sorts of restraint that i feel the
"hesitancy" about delving into personal stories that people
bring... something I'd like to do better... ie not be so
hesitant, have an easier and lighter touch.

The other time! We are now home after our long day and there is
much to do around the house etc.!

Both are stuff of the psyche... my dreams of late are all about
clearing out and making a space for newness to emerge.



> ***
>
> I asked you direct questions last week (subject: re: Happiness) and
> I've not received a response. I anticipate that it will take time.
> Maybe no response will come out of it. However, there are two
> resonations with this thread about dialogue (my term for it) as I
> feel it.

I know... and have not forgotten!  And I want to get to it!

> One, is, I proposed to you an experiential process in response to
> your "I have not absorbed, or rather grasped, the whole thread of
> "eternal atmosphere"". Moreover, I was attempting to take you into
> the personal sphere so that you might understand what I was intending
> to convey via 'eternal atmosphere'. This is an aspect of the
> abstract/personal continuum, imo.

Wonderful.

> Two, is that when I seek dialogue, no matter what
> responsenon-response (<-solunary!) I receive, I'm going to think
> something! So, when I tell you I don't know what to think, I'm also
> stating my thinking is a work-in-progress on this matter.
>
> Overall, I usually don't get my shorty shorts bunched up over
> non-response but that's not the same as not having a thoughtful
> internal feeling about what happens as a result of expressing my wish
> to engage.

I will, through the constraints, follow up on the Happiness
thread, and also be active in my relationship with you Robert...
in both cases because i want to.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:10:50 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
In-Reply-To:  <199907161750.MAA16311@anarchy.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Linda

> To Judith from Linda,
> Uh, wuz that a compliment
> or an insult?

I would have thought it was a desire to connect!

However the not knowing you got into seems to be an iteration (if
that is the right word) of the irregular (not random! ... do I
have that right Stephen?) pattern that Robert and I are into?


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:14:16 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?  And what's your sign(s)?
In-Reply-To:  <6bb2b9fe.24c13aee@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sheryl

> But I understand that I might
> have to move my mouse every 15 minutes or the screen saver would come on.

Very easy to turn off the screen saver... if you need more info
let me know.


I am a Virgo.  That is about all I know... but when i read any
thing about virgos it fits!  Kate is Pisces, and everything fits
about our combination too!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:04:07 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      what kind of fractals do you play with?
In-Reply-To:  <379663cf.186436406@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

>However the not knowing you got into seems to be an iteration (if
>that is the right word) of the irregular (not random! ... do I
>have that right Stephen?) pattern that Robert and I are into?

Walter, all,

No, I would just think it's a different occasion of not knowing! :-) twisi(+)

***

However, encounters of two complex systems will often mesh (used here
to cover the entire spectrum of how they come together and interact
and *cause effects*) in irregular patterns.

Where the fractal metaphor is apt here, as I feel it, might be
sampled via several suppositions:

"In the interactions between individuals"

(1) the interaction may be viewed as the interplay of complexity,
(1a) assumption: where there is consciousness there is complexity;

(2) the pattern of interaction of individuals is neither static or
periodic (so, iterations are not identical to each other)
(2a) hypothesis: the interaction of individuals is described by a
unique pattern

(3) the domains of interaction include: explicitness, implicitness,
tacitness, overtness, consciousness, consciousness, etc., (including
transference-countertransference; noting the continuums implied by
the polarities)
(3a) in normal interactions there is much that cannot be known
(3b) the unknown provokes effects

(4) "Unknowns" are aspects of some kinds of complexity

***

So, if person's individual psyche is, metaphorically, a fractal, then
does the interaction of two such 'fractals' no less irregular than
the individual pattern?

Judith points out the crux of engagement. The hidden *great*
potential in any interpersonal interaction is seldom realized beyond
what we are habituated to; i.e. our habits of interaction determine
the limits of our interaction. (In that sense, metaphorically, habit
is somewhat like a strange attractor's basin in that it captures the
interaction and causes it to realize some patterns but *precludes
others*.

Engagement is complex only in as much as the consciousness brought
into interaction is itself complex. Umm, one way of looking at it!

Perhaps we feel estranged when our own felt complexity isn't allowed,
recognized, or otherwise allowed to widen the basin of attraction in
our interpersonal playing <-for you Judith) .

***

off2work, wish best!

Stephen



(+) twisi - the way I see it

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:06:14 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Robert
>
> > I apologize ... and I mean it.
>
> Thanks.  I like the reflection on all of this and will hang in
> with it... to find my part in this too.
>
> Stephen's reflection on this along the lines of it being about
> something beyond this group makes sense to me, I think it is
> *always* related to the beyond, to the family of origin, to
> birth, to the archetypal, but that does not mean it is not also
> immediate and real in the now.

N: I would add 'to genectics'.  But really I just wanted to post how
involving and interesting
I am finding the 'thread' (Do we need a new subject line?)
  For me it tends  to break back down to 'feeling seen'.
     We have talked about this before, Walter and I saying that we both
felt unseen by our
family of origin, though I think we can be too reductionist here (walk
the walk backward)
thus making a dog out of a horse.
    This syndrome overtakes me too often on and off the net.  (As Sheryl
mentioned.)  In a  post elsewhere Robert
mentioned something about some people 'attempting' to remain unsean.
I'm not sure that's
true, at least consciously.  It might in some be a reaction to being
seen too often in a
harmful way (sometimes actually violent), yet some simply learn to adapt
to circumatances,
i.e. when the atmospher seems threatening, don't attrack attention.
When it is 'thrivable'
come out.  Others don't seem to make that discrimination (interesting
word).
    I've just had a 'too little seen' experience on shiki-workshop which
I will attempt to
post here and see if it triggers anything.  I think I'll use simply 'ebe
& flow' as our need
to be seen also varies.


ah, what can i say. it is the dark side showing. i know many of you saw
skipping stones being gathered at the bridge (two boys) and i saw thrown
stones. anyone remember shirley jackson's short story "the lottery."
from my
life perspective i often see humanity gathering stones. that said i
wanted to
give c&c to nancy on:

waking i know
through last night's dreams
the tyger paced.

i think the arrangement of lines gives the reader pause, but my attempt
may
change your meaning. it's that dark side again. feel free to totally
ignore
this. kathi

waking, i know
the tyger that paced
through last night's dream.

Love to All,   Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:14:25 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?  And what's your sign(...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 7/17/99 5:11:03 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> I am a Virgo.  That is about all I know... but when i read any
>  thing about virgos it fits!  Kate is Pisces, and everything fits
>  about our combination too!

Walter, this is where the intricacies and complexities of astrology come into
play... on the face of it, if someone looked at only your sun signs, you and
Kate would likely coexist as the *Bickersons*, in constant tension and
polarization, because your signs are opposite.  Obviously, there is much more
complexity in your birth charts with strong influences from other
signs/planets/houses!  There is so much to know about astrology.  It is so
complex and so mysterious!

Sheryl :)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:14:26 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?  And what's your sign(...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Hi Linda :)

In a message dated 7/16/99 9:34:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time, lwageck@IO.COM
writes:

> Anyway, I'm a triple Sagittarius. Sag Sun, Sag Rising,
>  and ascendant is Sag, etc.  Which either makes me
>  the most spiritual, travel loving, educated guru ones
>  ever met, or the biggest flake. [Take your pick!;-)]

To me, you come across as the spiritual, travel loving, educated teacher kind
of Sag!

>  I don't know much about astrology really, but from
>  what I hear, a triple Sagittarius is rare.  Probably
>  for the best [heh, heh].

Is your moon Sag too?  Steven Forrest, who has written some books that have
helped to me understand some of the complexities and influences of current
transits on natal charts, used a triple Sag as an example in one of his
books...
George Armstrong Custer!!!  Poor George's last stand occurred, according to
Forrest, during several pivotal transits, particularly Saturn and Mars.

I'm not knowledgeable enough though to analyze the probabilities and
possibilities that were present at that time in his life... but I get a
feeling of dread when someone who really does know astrology tells me that
Saturn or Mars are in some influential place in my life!

Just some astrology trivia :)

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:01:07 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Nancy,
Not to worry...all is going well except I can't move my head from side to
side which makes driving a car tedious...silence is a large part of my life
at the moment tho I seem to be coming out of that period...I feel strangly
calm and peaceful and while people around me seem to be going very fast I
am in a place which reminds me of being in a hot air balloon (of course
I've never been in one) where there is no sensation of wind inside the
basket because one is going with the wind...we'll see what emerges

And yes there is alot more to all of this which I continue to engage...but
it doesn't feel like *cost* just *what is*...I said to a healer friend
today, I am benefiting from all the years of *leading a learning life* and
continuing to connect to Dharma
Blessings
Judith

>Dear Judith,
>  I am glad to hear from you and know you are healing.  When you are
>long silence
>I begin to worry.
>  Somehow the way you write of your environment makes me almost envy you
>(despite the cost,
>which I know must be heavy in many ways you spare us.)
>
>  Blessings,   Nancy
>
>Judith Buerkel wrote:
>>
>> Walter and all,
>>
>> Getting stronger every day...I'm living with friends in a beautiful setting
>> which feeds me with love all around...I'm sitting quietly with what I have
>> experienced allowing it to permeate my psyche but I feel something emerging
>> to share at some point with everyone here as you all have been instrumental
>> in my journey...I feel as if my psyche is reformulating (another fractal
>> emerging called Judith)
>>
>> For now really enjoying *hearing* everyone's voices again here and
>> Stephen's and my work together...such a learning experience
>>
>> In gratitude
>> Judith
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:53:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Linda,
I'll have to reread what I wrote cause from where I sit at my screen I
wasn't intending an insult...actually I thot I was indicating why what
Gerard saw as off topic (computer stuff), I gained from in terms of
experiencing the nuances of people-in this case I mentioned your engagement

Boy, it get tricky, eh:-)
Judith

>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D
>To Judith from Linda,
>Uh, wuz that a compliment
>or an insult?
>
>I'm still half asleep.I take Fridays off, and my
>heart doesn't start beating til noon...
>[heh,heh]
>
>Senile, but present and accounted
> for, proud to say pulse still being,
>
>Regards,
>Linda;-)
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>
> Gerard, you wrote:
>>
>>>Really, is this the right place for discussions on such trivial subjects
>>>as PC vs. Mac, Linux vs. Windows, hiking, etc.?
>>
>> I guess my response depends on how long you have been a list
>> member...forgive if I missed this...that said
>>
>> It seems to me that life has it's trivalities and sometimes these serve a
>> very important function...yes we are engaged here in an adventure called
>> Psyber-L and we have over the time I've been here confronted very dicey
>> moments which at least in my perspective have forged closer relationships
>> so when Lynda, a newer member of the group, engaged playfully in revealin=
g
>> she watches tv using a mirror, to which Walter responded about a card he
>> had which allows him to watch it on his PC, I think this is ultimately
>> about engagement which has to do with deep Psyche...plus a bit of useful
>> information emerged...
>>
>>>
>>>How much does this contribute to the aims and purpose of this list?
>>
>> One of the issues with a list is how much do we take to backchanneling
>> particularly off topic stuff...I have no sense of how much of that goes o=
n
>> among us, but I for one know I have a greater knowing of Linda (Linda
>> excuse me talking *about* you here for the moment) through this exchange
>> and tho I don't know where it will lead, there is a connection made at so=
me
>> level which will have some sort of life here...it becomes an experiencial
>> moment...a long time ago we went through a period of the women on the lis=
t
>> engaging deep psyche *experiencially* and the men for the most part talki=
ng
>> *about* the deep psyche...we moved through that time and the list
>> experience is richer for it IMHO...
>>
>> Regards,
>> Judith
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Let me just remind its very title: "Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace"
>>>which seems to me to be reasonably explicit!
>>>
>>>G=E9rard Francillon
>>>
>>>
>>>Nancy Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>> catcher at times wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Does this mean that you guys _don't_ have a Mac? Maybe this
>>>> > sounds weird, but I thought that everyone with some sense had a
>>>> > Mac - guess I'm just byassed.
>>>>
>>>> N: Am I missing a joke?  I was told last year (and read) that 80-90% of
>>>> computer users has
>>>> some sort of IBM compatible.  I sorta wanted a Mac, but also thought I
>>>> might want to exchange
>>>> floppies and write with others.
>>>>   And what was that last word you used, Renata?
>>>> >
>>>> > renata (sorry to but in, by the way)
>>>>
>>>> N: Don't think there is an other way (espec. now that I'm trying to kee=
p
>>>> my phone line free
>>>> for house repair people to reach me and so puting posts in "send
>>>> later".)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>>> > Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>> > here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>
>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
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>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:21:56 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello all,

Walter sais some days ago:
: lurking is a sort of hesitancy perhaps...

I've been hesitant  long,  just read and  flagged  messages,   which I
considered to reply -  but always it  remained undone , partly because of
the lack of time.    But  it is not the whole truth. I  do every much
writing-work ( a new novel,  dream-diary, lectures ) in Finnish , but
somehow my  psyche is not verbal  in English, at present.

 I  don't now  what is "a thing happening here", as  Walter put it. Is it
really hesitance,  that people don't any more  shared their personal
experiences here,  as in the old days,  except Cheryl,  whose post
concerning  of feelings of unworthiness ( very  familiar to me in my youth)
I flagged  and  was about to  reply.

 Sheryl  set a question, what this group means to its members. I'm  a lurker
on nine mailing -lists,  but  Psyber-L   is an extraordinary, very special
list,  not my "first love" (referring to Nancy's  words),   but  the second
one,  at least , I feel some kind of affinity,  or maybe the  right word is
resonance. I still save the messages of this list , but delete   immediately
almost all  other posts. But I'm  a littile bit aloof,  not commited,
because I don't  feel hurt, if  I don't get response to my  writings.

A note to Sheryl, who asked signs. I'm  a computer-freak Aquarius, my  moon
is Taurus and  the ascendant is  in  Sagitarius.  I don't  know, if I'm INFP
or  ENFP  or something else. Abbreviations get me  nervous, because  I don't
know what they mean.  The are like social security numbers -
incomprehensible to me.

Best  to all
Anita

anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:42:56 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <024501bed0ab$58e2dbc0$7f0136d4@AnitaKonkka>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Anita, All:

   I've been reading (I don't like the word lurking) for quite awhile, and
most of the time I don't respond , because for whatever reason the real
world interferes and I run out of time, or I often lose my train of thought
on what I was going to say when I responded.   I'm the kind of person who
always prefers face to face communication and this modality has been
difficult for me.


At 02:21 AM 7/18/99 +0300, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>Walter sais some days ago:
>: lurking is a sort of hesitancy perhaps...
>
>I've been hesitant  long,  just read and  flagged  messages,   which I
>considered to reply -  but always it  remained undone , partly because of
>the lack of time.    But  it is not the whole truth. I  do every much
>writing-work ( a new novel,  dream-diary, lectures ) in Finnish , but
>somehow my  psyche is not verbal  in English, at present.
>
> I  don't now  what is "a thing happening here", as  Walter put it. Is it
>really hesitance,  that people don't any more  shared their personal
>experiences here,  as in the old days,  except Cheryl,  whose post
>concerning  of feelings of unworthiness ( very  familiar to me in my youth)
>I flagged  and  was about to  reply.

    Sometimes when personal items are shared it seems as if they're ignored
or very little attention is paid to them.

>
> Sheryl  set a question, what this group means to its members. I'm  a lurker
>on nine mailing -lists,  but  Psyber-L   is an extraordinary, very special
>list,  not my "first love" (referring to Nancy's  words),   but  the second
>one,  at least , I feel some kind of affinity,  or maybe the  right word is
>resonance. I still save the messages of this list , but delete   immediately
>almost all  other posts. But I'm  a littile bit aloof,  not commited,
>because I don't  feel hurt, if  I don't get response to my  writings.
>
>A note to Sheryl, who asked signs. I'm  a computer-freak Aquarius, my  moon
>is Taurus and  the ascendant is  in  Sagitarius.  I don't  know, if I'm INFP
>or  ENFP  or something else. Abbreviations get me  nervous, because  I don't
>know what they mean.  The are like social security numbers -
>incomprehensible to me.

      Sheryl, my sign is Pisces but 15 minutes away from Aries, I'm not
sure about  the moon aspect or the ascendant, and like Anita abbreviations
like INFP or ENFP make me very nervous, and I don't know (or Care) which I am.
>
>Best  to all
>Anita
>

           Greetings to all.

     Janell

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:59:28 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

>No, Judith, your okay--
I was just messin'round
on the keyboard.  No, its not so tricky.
*I'm* just a little dense. [I know you
wouldn't insult anyone else on the
list---ButIhaddaOpenMuhBigMouth,
heh,heh]

Now, that its Saturday night, I'm typing
away on the keyboard -- with my mirror
above my computer -- watching the
television behind me at the same
time --   waiting for news of John
Kennedy, Jr. [This post of mine here
has absolutely nothing to do with
Exploring the Psyche inCyberspace,
so my apologies].

Which is to say that when I look at
some of my own posts (in the past),
it appears I was primarily watching tele-
vision (usually the news), and  more
or less simultaneiously  "doodling" or
thinking-out-loud on my keyboard.
My poor listmates reading me
thinking out loud.....ouch!

Thanks for being sensitive enough
to think I was sensitive enough.....
(There I prattling on again...see what
I mean?  .....).  I wish they would just
find he and Caroline, so I can turn
off the television and turn off my
computer and get to bed.

Thanx for listening to my prattling
and follin'round on the keyboard!;-)

Linda ;-)
----------------------

LINDA D. WAGECK, BS, MA, ADC-III-DIPLOMATE, LCDC
           ICADC, CTAC-ACP-ADVANCED CLIN. PRACTITNR
Executive Director:  Austin Independent Assessments (AIA)
President:  Addiction Prog/Personnel Investigation Services (APPIS)
Owner:  A/D Professional Assessments Services Online (ADPASO)
       ~ Over Thirty Years in the Neuropsychology, Behavioral
         Medicine, Addictions Counseling and Related Field(s) ~
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 Linda,
> I'll have to reread what I wrote cause from where I sit at my screen I
> wasn't intending an insult...actually I thot I was indicating why what
> Gerard saw as off topic (computer stuff), I gained from in terms of
> experiencing the nuances of people-in this case I mentioned your engageme=
nt
>
> Boy, it get tricky, eh:-)
> Judith
>
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>To Judith from Linda,
>>Uh, wuz that a compliment
>>or an insult?
>>
>>I'm still half asleep.I take Fridays off, and my
>>heart doesn't start beating til noon...
>>[heh,heh]
>>
>>Senile, but present and accounted
>> for, proud to say pulse still being,
>>
>>Regards,
>>Linda;-)
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>
>> Gerard, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>Really, is this the right place for discussions on such trivial subject=
s
>>>>as PC vs. Mac, Linux vs. Windows, hiking, etc.?
>>>
>>> I guess my response depends on how long you have been a list
>>> member...forgive if I missed this...that said
>>>
>>> It seems to me that life has it's trivalities and sometimes these serve=
 a
>>> very important function...yes we are engaged here in an adventure calle=
d
>>> Psyber-L and we have over the time I've been here confronted very dicey
>>> moments which at least in my perspective have forged closer relationshi=
ps
>>> so when Lynda, a newer member of the group, engaged playfully in reveal=
ing
>>> she watches tv using a mirror, to which Walter responded about a card h=
e
>>> had which allows him to watch it on his PC, I think this is ultimately
>>> about engagement which has to do with deep Psyche...plus a bit of usefu=
l
>>> information emerged...
>>>
>>>>
>>>>How much does this contribute to the aims and purpose of this list?
>>>
>>> One of the issues with a list is how much do we take to backchanneling
>>> particularly off topic stuff...I have no sense of how much of that goes=
 on
>>> among us, but I for one know I have a greater knowing of Linda (Linda
>>> excuse me talking *about* you here for the moment) through this exchang=
e
>>> and tho I don't know where it will lead, there is a connection made at =
some
>>> level which will have some sort of life here...it becomes an experienci=
al
>>> moment...a long time ago we went through a period of the women on the l=
ist
>>> engaging deep psyche *experiencially* and the men for the most part tal=
king
>>> *about* the deep psyche...we moved through that time and the list
>>> experience is richer for it IMHO...
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Judith
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Let me just remind its very title: "Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace"
>>>>which seems to me to be reasonably explicit!
>>>>
>>>>G=E9rard Francillon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Nancy Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> catcher at times wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Does this mean that you guys _don't_ have a Mac? Maybe this
>>>>> > sounds weird, but I thought that everyone with some sense had a
>>>>> > Mac - guess I'm just byassed.
>>>>>
>>>>> N: Am I missing a joke?  I was told last year (and read) that 80-90% =
of
>>>>> computer users has
>>>>> some sort of IBM compatible.  I sorta wanted a Mac, but also thought =
I
>>>>> might want to exchange
>>>>> floppies and write with others.
>>>>>   And what was that last word you used, Renata?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > renata (sorry to but in, by the way)
>>>>>





 N: Don't think there is an other way (espec. now that I'm trying to
keep
>>>>> my phone line free
>>>>> for house repair people to reach me and so puting posts in "send
>>>>> later".)
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> > Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>>> > here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>>> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>>
>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:12:29 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Happiness
In-Reply-To:  <v04210101b3afbc7e2e67@[207.54.160.177]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen,

You wrote, in connection with the experiential knowing of my
eternal atmosphere:

> Of all the possibilities you *would be able to* realize tomorrow, if
> you could pick one what would it be?

Tomorrow i go to work.  Could I cancel the appointments?  Yes but
not my pick.  I will work.  I have a job I love, yet somehow I
need to make a shift of focus and energy.

I will love my lunch, somewhere in a cafe with a coffee, and
Cryptonomicon.  It is a break from the intensity of the work.
Even the smell of a book and the smell of coffee is not *quite*
it! Wonderful as it is it is too much a response to stress.

I want to be absorbed in writing, and then taking a rest from
that.  The smell... anachronistically is that of freshly
sharpened pencils.  I'll have the coffee and books too :)  The
atmosphere requires months or years... long enough for me to
really *want* to come back ... to people, work...

> Now imagine yourself immersed in your very own unique eternal
> atmosphere, and you sense a delightful aroma...it is the aroma of
> *happiness*.

> What does happiness smell like to you, Walter?

I think I have covered it, and strangely enough i think I get all
of it in our lovely holiday house in the bush... but *not* the
eternity, the lack of time pressure, that is the bit that stinks.

I really need to find time!

And I am working on it.

> ***
>
> Hey, what is the experience of answering these questions like for you? :-)

Good, enlivening, motivating.  Thanks Stephen.



Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:19:07 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
In-Reply-To:  <199907180359.WAA29756@anarchy.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Linda,

> Now, that its Saturday night, I'm typing
> away on the keyboard -- with my mirror
> above my computer -- watching the
> television behind me at the same
> time --   waiting for news of John
> Kennedy, Jr. [This post of mine here
> has absolutely nothing to do with
> Exploring the Psyche inCyberspace,
> so my apologies].

It might be one of the most psyche in cyberspace statements
ever... especially as you are not only doodling on the keyboard
but sending the doodles around the world ... connecting with
Judith, and us all.

And then there is the bit about it being tricky in here!

No, not tricky for you!

hehehe

I'm still trying to figure out what you are saying when you are a
dog!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:03:36 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <024501bed0ab$58e2dbc0$7f0136d4@AnitaKonkka>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anita

>  I  don't now  what is "a thing happening here", as  Walter put it. Is it
> really hesitance,  that people don't any more  shared their personal
> experiences here,  as in the old days,  except Cheryl,  whose post
> concerning  of feelings of unworthiness ( very  familiar to me in my youth)
> I flagged  and  was about to  reply.

Lovely to see you here, I don't think you'd be hesitant!

I think we do have personal sharing here, Cheryl's story stands
out in one way, Judith's in another, Stephen, Sheryl, Robert,
Nancy and more (sorry if I missed !!) bring themselves here
personally in their unique way.

>  I feel some kind of affinity,  or maybe the  right word is
> resonance.

Nice to hear, and it is a sort of personal sharing, not about our
other lives but how it is right here and now in Psyber L.

So in a way I am disagreeing with you about the personal...

I also agree that there is a ongoing discussion here, which
surfaces and then dips, about *personal* ... as if we *should* be
personal.  Or some would think *should not* be personal.  There
is a focus on that, which gets tied in with concepts of gender,
intellectual, feeling vs thinking, left vs right brains and so
on.

Is this simply a global cultural meme, or does it get a special
hearing here?

I know the psyche often is expressed via catharsis, and full
expression of deep feeling, but also...  through stories, and
especially in looking at stories *psychologically* giving them a
peculiar twist as Freud did with Oedipus etc.

I think we have done a bit of all of that...

What would you like more of here?

~~~

Anyway, how is the novel coming along?

Sounds like you are thriving in your work.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:20:52 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 7/17/99 8:43:07 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET writes:

>      Sheryl, my sign is Pisces but 15 minutes away from Aries, I'm not
>  sure about  the moon aspect or the ascendant, and like Anita abbreviations
>  like INFP or ENFP make me very nervous, and I don't know (or Care) which I
> am.


Hi Janell!

Gosh, I just thought of how much I appreciate your thoughts!  I hope you'll
be able to get more time away from rl to write more to Psyber-L.

Is your birthday March 19?  I'm asking because it happens to be my birthday!

I think I understand what you mean about the INFP, ENFP, ESTJ and those other
labels.  They don't make me nervous, but I think there needs to be great
caution when considering or using them, because it is so easy to absorb them
or the characteristics they describe, just another sort of self-stereotyping.


It's the same caution I have with astrology if I mention that I find it
interesting.  The self-stereotyping occurs with it, too, IMO when a person
completely accepts any kind of categorization, he/she has limited
himself/herself and reduced possibilities and potentialities.

Sheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:20:53 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 7/17/99 5:17:17 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
anitak@MEGABAUD.FI writes:

> I'm  a computer-freak Aquarius, my  moon
>  is Taurus and  the ascendant is  in  Sagitarius.

Anita, this strikes me as an extremely powerful sign combination at this
moment in history... has anyone knowledgeable about astrology ever told you
this?

Sheryl :)

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:46:46 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "L. Wageck" <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

>
Walter,
  Run that by again please? (the question in the
last sentence re "when you are a dog"....)...
Say what now? [I'm sorta dense, I guess]
what dog?
Did I miss a thread here?
Or did I fall asleep at the keyboard?
Thankx!

Linda ;-))
email:  lwageck@io.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
LINDA D. WAGECK, BS, MA, ADC-III-DIPLOMATE, LCDC
           ICADC, CTAC-ACP-ADVANCED CLIN. PRACTITNR
Exec.Direc.:  Austin Independent Assessments (AIA)
Pres:  Addiction Prog/Personnel Investigation Services
Owner:  A/D Professional Assessments Services Online
     ~ Over Thirty Years in the Neuropsychology, Behavioral
       Medicine, Addictions Counseling and Related Field(s) ~
===============================================
 Linda,
>
>> Now, that its Saturday night, I'm typing
>> away on the keyboard -- with my mirror
>> above my computer -- watching the
>> television behind me at the same
>> time --   waiting for news of John
>> Kennedy, Jr. [This post of mine here
>> has absolutely nothing to do with
>> Exploring the Psyche inCyberspace,
>> so my apologies].
>
> It might be one of the most psyche in cyberspace statements
> ever... especially as you are not only doodling on the keyboard
> but sending the doodles around the world ... connecting with
> Judith, and us all.
>
> And then there is the bit about it being tricky in here!
>
> No, not tricky for you!
>
> hehehe
>
> I'm still trying to figure out what you are saying when you are a
> dog!
>
>
> Walter
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:12:55 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <2762f02c.24c33cc4@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sheryl:

   No, my birthday is March 20th, which is the last day of Pisces. Aries
begins on March 21st, and I was born at 11:45 PM on the 20th,  so I really
am on the cusp.

   I too find astrology interesting but I don't venture beyond that into
belief because of my own caution, however,  I also don't disbelieve it either.

   Thank you for the kind words on my thoughts. I appreciate that.

   I'll try to find some time for Psyber-L, but the way the real world is
for me now I'm not sure how successful I'll be.

    Janell

At 10:20 AM 7/18/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/17/99 8:43:07 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
>jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET writes:
>
>Hi Janell!
>
>Gosh, I just thought of how much I appreciate your thoughts!  I hope you'll
>be able to get more time away from rl to write more to Psyber-L.
>
>Is your birthday March 19?  I'm asking because it happens to be my birthday!
>
>I think I understand what you mean about the INFP, ENFP, ESTJ and those other
>labels.  They don't make me nervous, but I think there needs to be great
>caution when considering or using them, because it is so easy to absorb them
>or the characteristics they describe, just another sort of self-stereotyping.
>
>
>It's the same caution I have with astrology if I mention that I find it
>interesting.  The self-stereotyping occurs with it, too, IMO when a person
>completely accepts any kind of categorization, he/she has limited
>himself/herself and reduced possibilities and potentialities.
>
>Sheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:30:08 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Purpose? of diadems and dogs?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

lwageck wrote:
>
> ==============================
> Walter,
>   Ruffffffff,
>
> Linda    {:-D
> ==============================
>
> >Grard
> >
> >Good to hear from you again... are you still in the nudist
> >village?  Did you ever get the Jungian books, insights you were
> >seeking?
> >
> >I have changed the subject line from:
> >
> >  Re: What kind of computer do you have?
> >  Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:07:12 +0200
> >
> >
> >> Really, is this the right place for discussions on such trivial subjects
> >> as PC vs. Mac, Linux vs. Windows, hiking, etc.?
> >
> >I feel a scared of a sort of usener degeneration when I see these
> >topics as well, even though i have been contributing to them.
> >
> >Can we fully divorce the technology from cyberspace?  Soul from
> >body?  Perhaps the discussion involves that theme which is more
> >ontopic.
> >
> >For me the topic was also linked to the word *religion*, and with
> >the wonderful subject line "There is a God!"...
> >
> >There is a real sense of belonging that people get from being in
> >a hardware or software cult.  What is that about?
> >
> >I cant feel it with respect to hardware, but I do get a tingle
> >from the GNU/linux phenomena... not unlike when I first
> >encountered flower power! heheheh
> >
> >> How much does this contribute to the aims and purpose of this list?
> >>
> >> Let me just remind its very title: "Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace"
> >> which seems to me to be reasonably explicit!
> >
> >Here (below) is a quote from the list description, which might
> >help, and of course can evolve in the light of discussion here,
> >as it has many times.
> >
> >
> >Walter
> >
> >
> >~~~
> >
> >= Purpose =
> >
> >The purpose of Psyber-L is to learn experientially about the
> >psyche in cyberspace. As all online discussion contributes to the
> >unfolding of the psyche a wide range of topics is suitable.
> >Participants are encouraged to make posts about the process and
> >how the psyche manifests and can be nurtured in cyberspace. The
> >comment and learning is not kept separate from the discussion, it
> >forms an integral part of it.
> >
> >The list is an environment in which its participants can
> >experiment and learn from experience about the scope of online
> >interaction for ethical psychological depth work.
> >__________________________________________________________________
> >Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
> >
> >____________________________________________________________
> >Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> >here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
> >
> >
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:32:47 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl,

You wrote

:  this strikes me as an extremely powerful sign combination at this
: moment in history
( concerning  Sagittarius-Aquarius- Taurus combination)

I took a look in the ephemeris. Yes, indeed  - there  is  transiting  Pluto
in Sagittarius,   transiting Uranus and Neptune in  Aquarius! And  next year
there is  Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in  Taurus,  just  on my moon. This
week  Uranus conjuncts  exactly my sun, and  next week  Pluto  conjuncts
exactly my ascendant.  Interesting times!  According to Dane  Rudhyar
transits of Uranus release the individual's genius or "madness" and make it
socially effective.  Perhaps  just now there  are about   billion ( maybe
billions) ingenious  or mad
Aquariuses in the  world.  Both of my  sons are Aquariuses ( sorry,  my
computer dictionary don't know the plural of Aquarius).  They had  already
their  Uranus  transits over Sun, but  I've not observed  any  changes in
them, no madness, nor genius -  a sigh of relief!

Cheers
Anita


anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:20:23 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Walter,

 You asked:
: Is this simply a global cultural meme, or does it get a special
: hearing here?

 I decided to  lower the  language wall, and  bought at the sales a computer
dictionary ( Finnish-English-Finnish) with a  translating program. But it is
a silly dictionary, it don't know what is "meme" in Finnish, and  the
sentences translated by it are without  sense.

You also asked:
 : What would you like more of here?

I'm not sure what do you mean, but  I like most of  the personal posts, such
as Dolores' messages used to be olden times. She  made people to write  by
reflecting her  psyche and emotions here. I'm not so brave.  I'm a quite
private person outside my books.

Regards
Anita

anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:03:28 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
In-Reply-To:  <00ab01bed1fd$958c8d20$0a0136d4@AnitaKonkka>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anita

>  You asked:
> : Is this simply a global cultural meme, or does it get a special
> : hearing here?

I am sorry i am using unnecessary jargon.  A meme is a like a
gene a unit of genetic material, but it is used to speak about
the spread and evolution of ideas, not plants and animals.  It is
a nice idea to play with for those who like ideas as a sort of
toy.

>  : What would you like more of here?
>
> I'm not sure what do you mean, but  I like most of  the personal posts, such
> as Dolores' messages used to be olden times. She  made people to write  by
> reflecting her  psyche and emotions here. I'm not so brave.  I'm a quite
> private person outside my books.

Yes that is what I mean.  Yes, Dolores has dropped off the list,
and I miss her posts too.  Sometimes they were distressing and
sometimes very funny.  One post from Dolores and we would have a
flood of posts for a week!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:29:20 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fractals
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith Buerkel wrote:
>
> Dear Nancy,
> Not to worry...all is going well except I can't move my head from side to
> side which makes driving a car tedious...silence is a large part of my life
> at the moment tho I seem to be coming out of that period...I feel strangly
> calm and peaceful and while people around me seem to be going very fast I
> am in a place which reminds me of being in a hot air balloon (of course
> I've never been in one) where there is no sensation of wind inside the
> basket because one is going with the wind...we'll see what emerges

N: You make your 'middle stair' (the place where Christopher Robin used
to sit,
which was neither up nor down)  Sound very inviting to me.  I think
perhaps it is
because - to me - you sound as if you feel loved, accepted and cared
for, by others as well as yourself.

  I suppose the  'immobile' driving might be a nuisance.  I am
contimplating my
first drive to the nearby big city since my eyes trouble began.  I want
to go because
it is a meeting of published regional haiku writers, one of whom I have
not seen in many years and the rest I have not met f2f but only through
e-mail.  Now I must busy myself again with the 'fireflies' to hope to
take to the meeting.  Such lovely creatures.  They always make
me want to clap three times so, like Tinkerbell, they will know I
believe in them, yet I would  not startle them away.

*******
N  I, too, miss Delores, Anita and Walter.  I hope she is all right.
Sometimes she sounded...
rather close to the edge.

Love and fireflies too all,

Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:25:04 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?  And what's your
              sign(s)?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey, Sheryl,

Got your message, lost your message then was working on your response  re:
walter and Robert and remembered I had neglected to *get engaged*...hard
here in my friend's home to get on-line with teenager on both lines

So I'm a (use to be computer) Aquarian with Cancer rising and a lot of Virgo
but I have forgotten when I was born (in more ways than one) and can't find
the time to get the time right so my astrology friend with her new nifty
computer program can play with my sign...life when I look into the future
gives me no feedback at the moment, tho dreams are interesting

Judith
>So what signs are everyone else here in Psyber-L?  (just trying to engage,
>Judith ;)
>
>Sheryl
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:37:44 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         catcher at times <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What kind of computer do you have?  And what's your
              sign(s)?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> >So what signs are everyone else here in Psyber-L?  (just

> trying to engage,

I'm Cancer, moon in Leo.

Chinese: Dog.

Indian: Woodpecker.

Which maybe makes me playful, persistent, loyal, exuberant
seafood.

renata (wondering what makes her and what she makes)


===
But where is what I started for so long ago?
And why is it yet unfound?
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:59:29 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Happiness
In-Reply-To:  <3791b8b9.15047003@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Walter, all,

Thanks for answering my questions.

***

Please both excuse me and indulge me as I pare away the
qualifications that accompanied your answers.


>
>Of all the possibilities you *would be able to* realize tomorrow, if
>you could pick one what would it be? What does happiness smell like
>to you, Walter?
>
>I will love my lunch,
>
>I want to be absorbed in writing, and then taking a rest from that.
>The smell... anachronistically is that of freshly sharpened pencils.
>
>I get all of it in our lovely holiday house in the bush...


***

again, pardon me and my broom,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:37:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Time & happiness
In-Reply-To:  <3791b8b9.15047003@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Walter writes,

>but *not* the
>eternity, the lack of time pressure, that is the bit that stinks.
>
>I really need to find time!


Doesn't this ring with the recent posts by Anita and Janell which
concern what circumstance, including 'time', is available to them to
engage here? Time obviously is a feature of that which engagement in
Psyber-L is dependent upon.

***

Yet, it is hard to mix it up with eternity! You've put your finger on
one idea of eternity: it is a feeling of plenty of time, so much so
that one would be delivered from 'having to find time'.

But with respect to Eternity, it is also "timelessness".

There are two sayings, (one I recall has been introduced here
before,): (1) *Time takes time*, and (2) *Whatever searching for time
is about, it isn't about time*.

I wouldn't suggest one can work with these koan-like phrases,
however, one could play with 'em!

***

As far as eternal atmosphere goes: an experience of it is exemplified
by what happens when the parceling out of commitments and engagements
and time is disrupted so radically that the sense of order and time
(etc.) is shifted, even transcended.

Suddenly where one is at is sufficient. It may actually feel like one
has lost track of time. An example: you meet up with someone as a
matter of serendipity and in your engagement with them, your plan is
suspended. Another example: suddenly you see a 'sight' and your
attention on other things goes into suspension as you take what you
are seeing in.

Would anyone volunteer a recollection of such moments?

***

In such instances and other similar instances, 'finding time' becomes
temporarily irrelevent. Those here who have indulged me this far
might wonder and wander about connections with eternal atmospheres,
where one is really at, being who you are, chaos, fractals, play,
strange attractors, novelty, serendipity, and synchronicity, and,
whatever pops into your awareness.

***

best to all,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:51:42 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Time & happiness
In-Reply-To:  <v04210101b3ba3f812d0d@[207.54.160.209]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen All,

We are a funny bunch!

  Time & happiness
  Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:37:18 -0500

This is the last post i have... and the date has just moved (here) to 23 Jul!

Now that is not that long to not have Psyber-L mail, but it is peculiar after

17 Jul   30 posts
18       28
19       15
20        6
21        2
22        0

Weekend?  Maybe, I was more active because it was the weekend.

Peculiar or not, I experience it as a phenomena... a puzzling one.  One that we
have really been focussing on too... looking for the meaning of our ebb and
flow.

~~~

I wrote:
> >I really need to find time!


Stephen:
> Doesn't this ring with the recent posts by Anita and Janell which
> concern what circumstance, including 'time', is available to them to
> engage here? Time obviously is a feature of that which engagement in
> Psyber-L is dependent upon.
>
> ***
>
> Yet,

I like your "yet" Stephen...

> it is hard to mix it up with eternity! You've put your finger on
> one idea of eternity: it is a feeling of plenty of time, so much so
> that one would be delivered from 'having to find time'.
>
> But with respect to Eternity, it is also "timelessness".
>
> There are two sayings, (one I recall has been introduced here
> before,): (1) *Time takes time*, and (2) *Whatever searching for time
> is about, it isn't about time*.

It is not... deeply, about time.

> I wouldn't suggest one can work with these koan-like phrases,
> however, one could play with 'em!
>
> ***

Yes.  I will pick up one line from here Stephen... and post up a dream of
mine...


> In such instances and other similar instances, 'finding time' becomes
> temporarily irrelevent. Those here who have indulged me this far
> might wonder and wander about connections with eternal atmospheres,
> where one is really at, being who you are, chaos, fractals, play,
> strange attractors, novelty, serendipity, and synchronicity, and,
> whatever pops into your awareness.

> where one is really at


here is the dream, which i had about 10 days ago:

I make my way up to about the fourth or fifth level of an old building, a hotel.
There is a conference, of elite people, some in tuxedos, others in hi-tech
mountain fashion clothes - beards.  I am being chased, or simply wanting to get
out of the room and I climb out of a window into the night, the window then
shuts, so it can't be opened again.  I don't want to get back in anyway.

I am on an iron ladder of a fire escape, two or three lengths are folded
together and impossible to untangle while I am on them, but even if they were
unfolded, they lead nowhere, there is only a 5 storey drop.  I am content enough
on the ladder, but also unable to go anywhere.


So that is where I am at.  For some reason this dream fits in here... it is how
I feel about the time situation... I'm vague describing the connection but sure
of the feeling of it connecting.


Warm wishes,


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:50:20 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Time & happiness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

[snips here and there]

Walter Logeman wrote:

> We are a funny bunch!
>
> Now that [2 days?]is not that long to not have Psyber-L mail, but it is peculiar after
>
> 17 Jul   30 posts
> 18       28
> 19       15
> 20        6
> 21        2
> 22        0
>

N: 'And the posts dwindle down to a precious few...'

>
> > But with respect to Eternity, it is also "timelessness".

N: But we, perhaps, are not.
>
> > where one is really at
>
> here is the dream, which i had about 10 days ago:

N: I am glad you will entrust your dream to use.  You received it about
the time I
received an Arizona 'dream catcher', which is even now hanging at my
window.  Bear was most intranced when I opened the package.  He
especially like the rust colored feather (lures?) that hang from the
bottom.  I don't know if they smelt of CB, David's dog, or of some
original bird origin.  It is the same window at which I 'saw' a spector
15 years ago in a dream...  just after I entered Jungian analysis.  It
was raining and the spector said to me "This is how they poisoned the
water."

Walter's dream:
>
> I make my way up to about the fourth or fifth level of an old building, a hotel.
> There is a conference, of elite people, some in tuxedos, others in hi-tech
> mountain fashion clothes - beards.  I am being chased, or simply wanting to get
> out of the room and I climb out of a window into the night, the window then
> shuts, so it can't be opened again.  I don't want to get back in anyway.

Nancy projects:  This feels to me  like a 'passage dream'... liminal.
If it were mine I'd wonder if it might associate with 'leaving the
garden of Eden' because I once read a book that firmly equated 'stories'
with age.
  The (well dressed) 'wild man' and the 'swave'.  You reject them both
and leave (at least temporarily) to be aside, looking in.

Walter continues with his dream:
> I am on an iron ladder of a fire escape, two or three lengths are folded
> together and impossible to untangle while I am on them, but even if they were
> unfolded, they lead nowhere, there is only a 5 storey drop.  I am content enough
> on the ladder, but also unable to go anywhere.

Nancy continues with her  projections:
  An odd thing, such a fire escape.  I know them only from big U.S.
Cities.  As if it were somehow both a 'prison' (made of iron bars) and a
means to safety, but not quite available yet as an escape.

And Walter:
>
> So that is where I am at.  For some reason this dream fits in here... it is how
> I feel about the time situation... I'm vague describing the connection but sure
> of the feeling of it connecting.
>
> Warm wishes,
>
> Walter
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Jul 1999 05:55:45 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Time & happiness
In-Reply-To:  <3797840B.3BAC76E5@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

> N: I am glad you will entrust your dream to use.

I like the way you have approached my dream... sharing your story of the catcher
and the spectre. Also your response to mine follows the format:  "If this were
my dream..." which I think is very respectful and fruitful.  I have an article
at home on one of the early online dream groups which used this format.


> Nancy projects:  This feels to me  like a 'passage dream'... liminal.
> If it were mine I'd wonder if it might associate with 'leaving the
> garden of Eden' because I once read a book that firmly equated 'stories'
> with age.

It is a passage for me, but it comes to a standstill.

>   The (well dressed) 'wild man' and the 'swave'.  You reject them both
> and leave (at least temporarily) to be aside, looking in.

Thanks for that... what I now realise is that both those male figures are
extremes, and that what I am avoiding here is those extremes, not the more
honest form of those archetypes.

> As if it were somehow both a 'prison' (made of iron bars) and a
> means to safety, but not quite available yet as an escape.

My means of avoidance or withdrawal is not so successful!

The ladder particularly relates to my trap with time (I now have it clearer) ...
The ladders get in their own way. I can't... make time to make time, to pick up
on Stephen's words.

~~~

Another link with the ebb and flow of posts here, is that when they come to ...
a standstill ... I am ok with that, I can sit in that place with that space
under me...

My dilemma of Where to now?  seems to be an unspoken question in the group's
dynamics.


All the best,


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:24:13 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Cheryl's connection
In-Reply-To:  <377c1782.314096@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl, all,

The subscription at your new address does not seem to be working,
and the other computer is still out I guess??

I (as administrator) keep getting these messages, so i hope you
will find your way back here soon!


--> Error description:
Error-for:  cheryl92@THEGLOBE.COM


Walter



  Cheryl's connection
  Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:52:11 GMT


> Cheryl, all
>
> I have received the following two posts from Cheryl, and have added you
> Cheryl, to the list with the new address, so you should get this via the
> list Cheryl.
>
> It could be any virus as you say, or even something else altogether?
> Whatever it is I doubt you need to get a new PC, just someone who knows
> how to get it going again on the cheap.
>
> I use Norton's antivirus, it is a commercial product, but works well in
> that I can update it easily once per week with info about new viruses,
> this is done with one click while online, dead easy, and I feel much
> more secure.  I did get infected with the Happy99?? virus and so that
> got me motivated.
>
> Cheryl, all the best and don't forget you can see all the old posts via
> the archive, and even download them (ask me how if you ever need to do
> this -- or look in the listserv manual :)
>
> Walter
>
>
> "Cheryl Foltos" <cheryl92@theglobe.com>
>
>   Melissa Virus
>   Thu, 01 Jul 1999 09:33:51 -0700
>
>
> > Walter,
> > Sorry to contact you off list but my computer has been invaded
> > by the Melissa virus and I no longer have any usable applications
> > at home. I am using a terminal from work and have set up a
> > temporary address until I figure out what I want to do.
> > At the moment this truly sucks. I am not going to be able to
> > afford a new computer and don't yet know if anything is salvagable.
> > I guess I'll resubscribe from this address until I know what else to
> > do. I just wnated you to know so that if you see a new subscription
> > request you'll know what it's about. Actually if you want to use this
> > message as a 'welcome' you can do that.
> >
> > Grrrrrrrrrrr.........
> >
> > Cheryl
> >
>
>
> "Cheryl Foltos" <cheryl92@theglobe.com>
>
>   (No Subject)
>   Thu, 01 Jul 1999 10:54:18 -0700
>
>
> > Walter,
> > The IS people here tell me it might not be the Melissa
> > virus - that it could be any virus. Just didn't want to
> > alram anyone - I guess the Melissa spreads by sending
> > itself to the first 50 people inyour address book. What a bother.
> >
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:30:28 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Time & happiness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  Correct me if I'm wrong, Walter, but my recall is that you are INFJ.
I am INFP.  It seems to me that I see the J/P difference in our way of
approaching your dream (tho it is appropriate in this case that I be the
more tentative.)

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Nancy,
>
> > N: I am glad you will entrust your dream to use.
>
> I like the way you have approached my dream... sharing your story of the catcher
> and the spectre. Also your response to mine follows the format:  "If this were
> my dream..." which I think is very respectful and fruitful.  I have an article
> at home on one of the early online dream groups which used this format.
>
> > Nancy projects:  This feels to me  like a 'passage dream'... liminal.
> > If it were mine I'd wonder if it might associate with 'leaving the
> > garden of Eden' because I once read a book that firmly equated 'stories'
> > with age.
>
> It is a passage for me, but it comes to a standstill.

N: No closure for you, while I am comfortable with it as a tenporary
perspective.
>
> >   The (well dressed) 'wild man' and the 'swave'.  You reject them both
> > and leave (at least temporarily) to be aside, looking in.
>
> Thanks for that... what I now realise is that both those male figures are
> extremes, and that what I am avoiding here is those extremes, not the more
> honest form of those archetypes.
>
> Another link with the ebb and flow of posts here, is that when they come to ...
> a standstill ... I am ok with that, I can sit in that place with that space
> under me...

N: Ok. So now you can wait.
   What I have thought of in the interuum, is that it is a 'sindow' that
shut on you.  Do you use 'Windows' on your computer?
   You have for some time (longer than I've known you) expressed an
interest in exploring a psychotherapy by email (have, in fact, been
using it as an adjunct).  But how to 'ground' this
escape (and if 'escape' for the best) in ways so that time expended
meets money needed.  How
many sections were there yet unfolded?  Three?  An awkward number
calling for a fourth, yet
develmentally a big step from one to one relationships to three.

  Just some futher cents (never 'sense') for what they're worth.
>
> My dilemma of Where to now?  seems to be an unspoken question in the group's
> dynamics.

N: Perhaps.
>
> All the best,
>
> Walter
>
N: to all of Psyber-L.   Nancy

PS  Thank you for reminding me that Cheryl was having a connection
problem.  I forgotten and
was beginning to worry.
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:00:56 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Time & happiness
In-Reply-To:  <3798B4C4.B622CF1D@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

>   Correct me if I'm wrong, Walter, but my recall is that you are INFJ.
> I am INFP.  It seems to me that I see the J/P difference in our way of
> approaching your dream (tho it is appropriate in this case that I be the
> more tentative.)

I have a sense of us approaching it quite similarly, i am getting
a lot from you comments in this post too.  My myers Briggs
ratings are all close especially the FT and the JP...


> > It is a passage for me, but it comes to a standstill.
>
> N: No closure for you, while I am comfortable with it as a tenporary
> perspective.

I am actually.  I could sit there forever!


> > Another link with the ebb and flow of posts here, is that when they come to ...
> > a standstill ... I am ok with that, I can sit in that place with that space
> > under me...
>
> N: Ok. So now you can wait.
>    What I have thought of in the interuum, is that it is a 'sindow' that
> shut on you.  Do you use 'Windows' on your computer?

I was thinking "sindow"... now there is something to explore! But
yes, the window is shut... as a screen and something to look
through it is still there.  But In the dream I don't want to be
seen really. At least not by everyone...

>    You have for some time (longer than I've known you) expressed an
> interest in exploring a psychotherapy by email (have, in fact, been
> using it as an adjunct).  But how to 'ground' this
> escape (and if 'escape' for the best) in ways so that time expended
> meets money needed.

Your comment resonates!  Thanks. I appreciate that you notice my
interests and dilemmas.

> How
> many sections were there yet unfolded?  Three?  An awkward number
> calling for a fourth, yet
> develmentally a big step from one to one relationships to three.

Three but they are tangled as well as unable to be unfolded while
I sit on them.  It would take major gymnastics to unfold them,
and then there are only three, while even a fourth would lead
nowhere.

A question...

How personally do you feel related to this dream, how OK is it
for you to be in such a place... if you are.

Another one...

How is the online psychotherapy going?

One of the tangles I see, is that I am not even happy to call
anything online psychotherapy... anymore than I'd call a radio
play a movie. Perhaps this is just a "hang up" I have, heheheh


All for now,


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:18:54 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anita, Judith, Renata, Linda, Walter...

Thanks all for sharing your astrological signs.  Off the cuff, as I read
them, I thought of both the interesting combinations and what each of your
individual *karma/destiny* might be, but also the what the *karma/destiny* of
this particular group of people brought together at this moment in time
through Psyber-L might be, too.

I seem to do this kind of analysis, not usually astrologically though,
constantly, if not consciously, then sub or unconsciously, almost like a
software program running in the back of my mind that is running behind the
scene.  This *software program* in my mind seems to me to be connected to
soul, spirituality, destiny, God or Goddess (choose whichever is appropriate
to you :)

Once in awhile, I can pick up a kind of theme or thread, and those can be
insightful, *ah ha* kind of moments for me.  Intellectually and more
objectively, though, I think I may be just playing mind games with myself
rather than just *being*.  The insights usually occur at some seemingly
totally unrelated later time.  In some ways, they have elements of hindsight,
but more frequently seem to come from nowhere.

Another bit of information from my astrological question was to discover that
there are some others on Psyber-L who have some astrological knowledge :)
And it was great to hear from all of you and to know not everyone just checks
the newspaper  under their sun sign and believe that's all there is to
astrology!

Thanks for sharing and engaging, all :)

Sheryl

In a message dated 7/19/99 9:38:31 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
anitak@MEGABAUD.FI writes:

> According to Dane  Rudhyar
>  transits of Uranus release the individual's genius or "madness" and make it
>  socially effective.  Perhaps  just now there  are about   billion ( maybe
>  billions) ingenious  or mad
>  Aquariuses in the  world.  Both of my  sons are Aquariuses ( sorry,  my
>  computer dictionary don't know the plural of Aquarius).  They had  already
>  their  Uranus  transits over Sun, but  I've not observed  any  changes in
>  them, no madness, nor genius -  a sigh of relief!

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:18:55 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Time & happiness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 7/24/99 3:02:36 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> One of the tangles I see, is that I am not even happy to call
>  anything online psychotherapy... anymore than I'd call a radio
>  play a movie. Perhaps this is just a "hang up" I have, heheheh
>

Walter, this resonates with me, too, about calling anything online
psychotherapy, it is something else... more powerful, if one chooses to make
it so, maybe than psychotherapy?

It also resonates with my work, though, which is not psychotherapy, either,
IMO.  You briefly mentioned that you had had some clients who were
birthmothers... I see my work at this point as hopefully providing
birthmothers with at least some of the means to cope with their life changing
loss in later years to avoid the need for psychotherapy.  The adoption
picture in the last few years has changed with the advance of open adoption,
although in this arena too, people have not caught up to the possibilities
and potentials available to them, and they frequently seem to cling to
limited, rigid perspectives.

One, for example, makes almost no sense to me at all:  many of the birth
parents I see are constantly being given the message by others around them
(mothers, fathers, friends, medical personnel in their doctor's offices,
etc.) that in considering adoption they are being selfish!  This makes NO
sense to me!  It is NOT a selfish act... rather it is one of the most
UNselfish acts I can think of!

But it is not psychotherapy to try to convey this to birth parents... it fits
a lot more under the umbrella of counselling.  Counselling as a process seems
a lot less objective to me than psychotherapy as a process.

What do you think about this distinction?  Is it valid?

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:52:02 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Fwd: [P] Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_4d35af55.24cb6552_boundary"

--part1_4d35af55.24cb6552_boundary
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And a third!

Plus three more of the same in response to the my other post... Walter,
anyone, do you have any idea what might be going on?

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Subject: Re: [P] Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
From: "lwageck" <lwageck@io.com>
To: Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@aol.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
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I'm sorry,your message came back undelivered.  There is
reason to suspect that either you, your computer, another person using your computer, has a past history of questionable email to the intended recipient. I am sure
you understand safety precautions.  If you are annoyed
or irritated by the fact that this is being blocked and
is undeliverable, that is all the more proof that YOU are
indeed someone of suspet motives, and ill intent behind
your message.  Go away.  Your computer Source ID information is being recorded. Your server is being notified by personnel at my server. Should you insist on further attempts to email the person at this email address, it will idicate obvious abusive intent on your part.  If you are indeed a regular innocent emailer, who has inadvertantly
received this message, we are sure you understand and
would want the same security on your incoming mail as well -- and will not find this message inconvenient nor
annoying. Thank you.

--part1_4d35af55.24cb6552_boundary--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:51:59 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Fwd: [P] Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Psyber-L...

This is a hmmm?!!!   Has anyone else gotten anything like this from Linda?

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Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:22:51 -0500
Subject: Re: [P] Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
From: "lwageck" <lwageck@io.com>
To: Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@aol.com>
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Your email is being returned undelivered.  You or someone using your computer and your name have a past history of
sending obscene and/or abusive emails to this address and will not be tolerated.  Your server has been notified,as has this server. Security personnel and abusefilter experts at this server, trained in tracking online pedofilia's are now
enabled to trace your Source ID information and identification. It would be in your best interests to discontinue any further attempts to email me; after today you have been duly warned and your local authorities will be contacted. A warrent for your arrest will be issued and you will be charged with abuse, and harrassment of a minor child/ and pedophilia.  The information from you hospital and/or institution is not safe from the Source information the security personnel working for my server are also
gathering from your emails.  You have exactly 72 hours
to make certain you change your online behavior, or legal
action will be promptly executed in the form of an arrest warrent.

--part1_9c17aeef.24cb654f_boundary--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:52:01 EDT
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Fwd: [P] Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_c67b22ee.24cb6551_boundary"

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And another I got from her...

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The intended recipient of your email message has
chosen to refuse mail from any computer
with matching source description found in
this.  This message was chosen to deflect as
it has has a past history of abusive and harrass-
ing intent. Your message is also being forwarded
to your server, so it will be documented the number
and attempts which were made to continue sending
unsolicited email to this recipient.  It would be wise
and prudent to discontinue any further attempts at
communication to this email address. You, you real
name, your email name,and your pseudonyms, as
well as your emails Source ID are all being tracked
by security personnel employed by my server, who
have special training in tracking down internet
pedophiles, etc.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:08:57 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fwd: [P] Fractals / ebb & flow of posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Walter, all...

Fortunately I discovered that someone else on another list had received this
from response from Linda, from a totally unrelated post of his to that list.
It is apparently an autoresponder (pretty crude I think!) and I don't know
why it responded to each of us personally rather than to the list.

I don't know what anyone can do to clear it up at this point, though, but at
least if it happens to someone else you'll know what it is!

But I wonder what this is about from Linda's end?  Anyone have any thoughts?

Sheryl (writing from her apartment, not from a hospital or jail!)

In a message dated 7/24/99 12:53:35 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
CMCPsych@aol.com writes:

> Your email is being returned undelivered.  You or someone using your
computer
> and your name have a past history of
>  sending obscene and/or abusive emails to this address and will not be
> tolerated.  Your server has been notified,as has this server. Security
> personnel and abusefilter experts at this server, trained in tracking
online
> pedofilia's are now
>  enabled to trace your Source ID information and identification. It would
be
> in your best interests to discontinue any further attempts to email me;
after
> today you have been duly warned and your local authorities will be
contacted.
> A warrent for your arrest will be issued and you will be charged with
abuse,
> and harrassment of a minor child/ and pedophilia.  The information from you
> hospital and/or institution is not safe from the Source information the
> security personnel working for my server are also
>  gathering from your emails.  You have exactly 72 hours
>  to make certain you change your online behavior, or legal
>  action will be promptly executed in the form of an arrest warrent.
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:45:37 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         lwageck <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Sorry for inadvertent message/alert to nice members...
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Dear respected friends, list members,

We are so sorry for the messages/alerts to you
in error.  We have minor grandchildren in our home
for the summer.   For several weeks  we have received
 some (at first) "odd" email messages.
Later they got down right personal/ abusive. So we were
 up all last night (until about 5AM) working with tech-
knowledgable personnel on tracking down the individual
persons. It seems he was using a pseudonym as well,at least
one or more.  One pseudonym used was the same
or similar name of the moderator for one of the
psych-related email groups.  So when a "block"
was put on to block him out -- the same block
when to other people.
We  want to apologize for confusing nice people who
were totally non-related. My husband is a Meth.Minister,
he's 71, getting older and not computer literate. I am
still  in  the psych field (counseling), at least supposed
to be, altho thinking of retiring soon
(Also  not accustomed  to so many grandkids in for the
 summer - whewww!)

But the odd/questionable postings started weeks
ago, before any  grandkids were here.  I started
get moreconcerned about it, knowingk ids would be
using this computer starting Friday July 23rd. Even
 Thursday night, late,  I  received a very blatent abusive
message from that individual and/or his pseudonym.

Again our apologies... we are so sorry that the wrong
persons got the alert flash meant for only the weird
guy  and/or his pseudonyms. Also thank you so much
 for not taking it personally. We've had quite a scary time..
 and the technology is just good enough to be able to filter
people out, but in this case, it filtered out lots of
respected, professional, innocent persons such as
yourself as well.
Again, we're so sorry.. the alert/message was not
for you.Thanks so much for your patience and
understanding.
Kindest regards,
Linda Wageck
------------------------------------------>
 Psyber-L...
>
> This is a hmmm?!!!   Has anyone else gotten anything like this from Linda?
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:49:29 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         lwageck <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Am receving in triplicate..x3 help!
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Sherly,
Am so sorry -- what in the heck is going on?
My server is sending me three (3) of each message!

I'm even getting three copies of my *own* messages.

Again, my apologies. Am on the phone to our Server.
Hope te rest of this weekend all works out..

Thanx  for patience and understanding (hopingyou
don't get this message three (3) times, arrrgghh!
Linda
---------------
PS.
I think grandkids came in and tried to "help" gramma
fix things when we got up this morning.....hmmmmm
------------------------------------------------------------------->
 And a third!
>
> Plus three more of the same in response to the my other post... Walter,
> anyone, do you have any idea what might be going on?
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 04:51:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Time & happiness
In-Reply-To:  <3c959aa.24cb416f@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl,

> > One of the tangles I see, is that I am not even happy to call
> >  anything online psychotherapy... anymore than I'd call a radio
> >  play a movie. Perhaps this is just a "hang up" I have, heheheh

Hmmm looking at that I notice we are happy to call them "radio"
plays, and we know the difference with stage plays.

Online psychotherapy might be ok... however...

> Walter, this resonates with me, too, about calling anything online
> psychotherapy, it is something else... more powerful, if one chooses to make
> it so, maybe than psychotherapy?

It still resonates with me too, it obscures the differences, and
often the strengths of this medium.  I would not say *more*
powerful... I think it is powerful, and just as new media
transforms old media, rather than replacing it, I think we are
beginning to see that happening with the ways we attend to the
soul... I heard someone say today about a group of people who had
been in a focus group together... we are just like a family we
are all in touch by email!  Some people might say; My god what
has happened to the family, but the *connection* is stronger and
there, whereas our geographical distance would have cut us off a
lot more in the past.

> It also resonates with my work, though, which is not psychotherapy, either,
> IMO.  You briefly mentioned that you had had some clients who were
> birthmothers... I see my work at this point as hopefully providing
> birthmothers with at least some of the means to cope with their life changing
> loss in later years to avoid the need for psychotherapy.  The adoption
> picture in the last few years has changed with the advance of open adoption,
> although in this arena too, people have not caught up to the possibilities
> and potentials available to them, and they frequently seem to cling to
> limited, rigid perspectives.
>
> One, for example, makes almost no sense to me at all:  many of the birth
> parents I see are constantly being given the message by others around them
> (mothers, fathers, friends, medical personnel in their doctor's offices,
> etc.) that in considering adoption they are being selfish!  This makes NO
> sense to me!  It is NOT a selfish act... rather it is one of the most
> UNselfish acts I can think of!
>
> But it is not psychotherapy to try to convey this to birth parents... it fits
> a lot more under the umbrella of counselling.  Counselling as a process seems
> a lot less objective to me than psychotherapy as a process.
>
> What do you think about this distinction?  Is it valid?

It sounds like counselling to me, because the *agreement* is not
to let the psyche or soul take the lead, and let it lead us where
it will while we *attend* to the soul... you have an
understanding to attend to the social and personal processes...
(perhaps only tacitly).  I'd call that counselling, but the terms
are fluid, and vary around the world too.  I think that the sort
of work you do can be soulful, psychotherapeutic... however it
must also stay within its own (possibly tacit) agreed boundaries.
It is the more soulful for that!

About objectivity... I think of the psyche as being able to lead
us... there is something there to follow... Jung was fond of
thinking what he did as *empirical* exploration of that.

It would seem to me that it is harder to be objective about
something so ethereal than the more immediate thoughts and
feelings of your clients...

How idea all that sound to you?


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 05:08:45 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Cyberspace hazards
In-Reply-To:  <199907242149.QAA16081@anarchy.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cyberspace hazards

Linda,

> We have minor grandchildren in our home
> for the summer.   For several weeks  we have received
> some (at first) "odd" email messages.
> Later they got down right personal/ abusive.

Sorry to hear about your problems with that.  Not good.  And i
can see that you are having some problems in sorting it all out.
How is it going?

Sheryl... how are you doing with getting those posts in error?
All of these things can be very hurtful.

I have not seen any other problems at this end.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:18:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         lwageck <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Time & happiness
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

-----------------------------------------------------------
Walter,
Please don't think I'm trying to 'brown-nose' or get
overly gushy with flattery -- but I think that's such a
great metaphor you used below...ie " not happy to
call anything onlne psychotherapy...anymore than
I'd call a radio play a movie.."

(darn, I wish *I'd* thought of that)  ;-)

Still enjoying y'alls insight(s)...
.
[Onward through the Threads!]

Linda  ;-)
email: lwageck@io.com
------------------------------------------------------------
>
 Sheryl,
>
>> > One of the tangles I see, is that I am not even happy to call
>> >  anything online psychotherapy... anymore than I'd call a radio
>> >  play a movie. Perhaps this is just a "hang up" I have, heheheh
>
> Hmmm looking at that I notice we are happy to call them "radio"
> plays, and we know the difference with stage plays.
>
> Online psychotherapy might be ok... however...
>
>> Walter, this resonates with me, too, about calling anything online
>> psychotherapy, it is something else... more powerful, if one chooses to make
>> it so, maybe than psychotherapy?
>
> It still resonates with me too, it obscures the differences, and
> often the strengths of this medium.  I would not say *more*
> powerful... I think it is powerful, and just as new media
> transforms old media, rather than replacing it, I think we are
> beginning to see that happening with the ways we attend to the
> soul... I heard someone say today about a group of people who had
> been in a focus group together... we are just like a family we
> are all in touch by email!  Some people might say; My god what
> has happened to the family, but the *connection* is stronger and
> there, whereas our geographical distance would have cut us off a
> lot more in the past.
>
>> It also resonates with my work, though, which is not psychotherapy, either,
>> IMO.  You briefly mentioned that you had had some clients who were
>> birthmothers... I see my work at this point as hopefully providing
>> birthmothers with at least some of the means to cope with their life changing
>> loss in later years to avoid the need for psychotherapy.  The adoption
>> picture in the last few years has changed with the advance of open adoption,
>> although in this arena too, people have not caught up to the possibilities
>> and potentials available to them, and they frequently seem to cling to
>> limited, rigid perspectives.
>>
>> One, for example, makes almost no sense to me at all:  many of the birth
>> parents I see are constantly being given the message by others around them
>> (mothers, fathers, friends, medical personnel in their doctor's offices,
>> etc.) that in considering adoption they are being selfish!  This makes NO
>> sense to me!  It is NOT a selfish act... rather it is one of the most
>> UNselfish acts I can think of!
>>
>> But it is not psychotherapy to try to convey this to birth parents... it fits
>> a lot more under the umbrella of counselling.  Counselling as a process seems
>> a lot less objective to me than psychotherapy as a process.
>>
>> What do you think about this distinction?  Is it valid?
>
> It sounds like counselling to me, because the *agreement* is not
> to let the psyche or soul take the lead, and let it lead us where
> it will while we *attend* to the soul... you have an
> understanding to attend to the social and personal processes...
> (perhaps only tacitly).  I'd call that counselling, but the terms
> are fluid, and vary around the world too.  I think that the sort
> of work you do can be soulful, psychotherapeutic... however it
> must also stay within its own (possibly tacit) agreed boundaries.
> It is the more soulful for that!
>
> About objectivity... I think of the psyche as being able to lead
> us... there is something there to follow... Jung was fond of
> thinking what he did as *empirical* exploration of that.
>
> It would seem to me that it is harder to be objective about
> something so ethereal than the more immediate thoughts and
> feelings of your clients...
>
> How idea all that sound to you?
>
>
> Walter
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:43:44 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         lwageck <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Cyberspace hazards
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Walter and Sheryl and all:

Yes, I learned the hard way exactly what a "auto reply"
was [never heard of it until ever-so-helpful teen
grandsons played with it]. In my case, its not only
hazards in cyberspace.  It's also, that I'm not around
young people much -- young toddlers, OR  teens.
Since they live out of state and I get to see them
only once or twice a year, I forget just how much
other ages know (or don't know) about certain
things.  Not just computers, but stuff in general.
[I can type out loud now -- they've all gone to the
movies,heh, heh].
I was so eager to show grandkids -- "oh, look Grammy
has a new computer!! (Isn't Grammy modern, ie: terrific?)
Since my entire family has already let me know that the
field of psychology is so...well, you know (eyes rolling
toward the ceiling by 35 year old son).  Rodney Danger-
field gets more respect than I do insofar as being seen
by my grown kids as a *real* professional.  Other son:
"Iits 'just talking to people, chatting in a private practice
room about Freud, mother, that so old, your field
has not changed in 50 years" unquote.
So Mom here ever so proud to point out that, yes, us in
 the field of counseling actully do have IQ's higher than
 hamsters, look, we actually have computer software for
our tests, assessments, see??  [More eyes toward to ceiling.
 He claims not , but I have eyes in the back of my
head --I *know* those things, ya  know].
In all my eagerness to  let a gang of family members
toy around with my computer -- I just happen to mention
that, well, one down side of computer and related, was
this one creep who had been sending very abusive
letters (several).  So everyone attempted to come to
my" rescue" to remedy the situation.   [I can tell my
teachings about co-dependency around the house
in the late 1970's went unheard].  Great, loving family,
just a tad "too helpful", lets say!
The two grandsons are from Colorado, from the school
next to Columbine.They're my husbands two grandsons,
actually...I'm not old enough to have teen grandkids of
my own.[ Mine own are 2 year olds]. Anyway  I have been
 reflecting on all the talk that "teenagers have to grow up
so fast nowadays" from phone conversations with my
step-daughter-in-law in Colorado.  I just assumed that
teens today, had a knowledge base, of, oh lets say
a 23 year old of my generation. [ Wrong].  I just assumed
 that the two boys would be okay 'helping Grammy' fix the
guy who keeps bugging her".  [Wrong again].
Needlessto say, I got a crash course in "auto-reply".
And my computers auto-reply was stuttering .
Happy to say, no more triplicates of each email!

Still having a fun time with family though.
Tomorrow's another day. You knkow what they
say:  "Insanity is inherited:  You get it from your children".

Still enjoying contact with you all -- other professionals.
It really means a lot to me.  Serious. Y'all were so
understanding this morning, thanx Sheryl.
And Walter a rare find-- so kind as usual.
Priceless listpals.

Kindest regards,
Linda ;-)  >
--------------------------------------------------
Cyberspace hazards
>
> Linda,
>
>> We have minor grandchildren in our home
>> for the summer.   For several weeks  we have received
>> some (at first) "odd" email messages.
>> Later they got down right personal/ abusive.
>
> Sorry to hear about your problems with that.  Not good.  And i
> can see that you are having some problems in sorting it all out.
> How is it going?
>
> Sheryl... how are you doing with getting those posts in error?
> All of these things can be very hurtful.
>
> I have not seen any other problems at this end.
>
>
> Walter
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:17:08 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Cyberspace hazards
In-Reply-To:  <379d98fe.4007777@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

All,

Erik Davis in 'Techgnosis' has a neat phrase, which also ties into some of
the terminology and imagery that's been used on the list:

"... the dangerous attractors that lurk, as they always have, in virtual
space, waiting to draw our bodyminds into downward spirals."

Another phrase of his that struck me as I dipped into the last chapter:

"mindfulness cultivates a kind of *mobile center* than can pliably and
creatively interact with the morphing demands of a perpetually decentered
world."  [my emphasis]

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:03:43 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Time & happiness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Nancy,
>
> >   Correct me if I'm wrong, Walter, but my recall is that you are INFJ.
> > I am INFP.  It seems to me that I see the J/P difference in our way of
> > approaching your dream (tho it is appropriate in this case that I be the
> > more tentative.)
>
> I have a sense of us approaching it quite similarly, i am getting
> a lot from you comments in this post too.  My myers Briggs
> ratings are all close especially the FT and the JP...
>
> > > It is a passage for me, but it comes to a standstill.
> >
> > N: No closure for you, while I am comfortable with it as a tenporary
> > perspective.
>
> I am actually.  I could sit there forever!
>
> > > Another link with the ebb and flow of posts here, is that when they come to ...
> > > a standstill ... I am ok with that, I can sit in that place with that space
> > > under me...
> >
> > N: Ok. So now you can wait.
> >    What I have thought of in the interuum, is that it is a 'sindow' that
> > shut on you.  Do you use 'Windows' on your computer?
>
> I was thinking "sindow"... now there is something to explore!

N:  True.  For me particularly to explore <g> as it is my typo.
Sometimes 'coming about of' these typos are quite obvious to me.  This
one is not.  Some of the things which occur to me are: 1) I am quite
involved with trying to 'spin' for myself a feminine divinity equal too
God.  Men  (in my experience) do not understand why it is so hard, nor
perhaps, why it is so necessary. I often feel that it is a...
blasphemy.  2) At some level I may feel that it is a 'sin' that people
charge for 'psychotherapy' at all.  I won't even attempt to dignify that
rationally.  We live in a barter economy.  How else is one to keep body
and soul together?
3) I am almost 'all' introvert, and hence likely spend too much time
with my computer rather than 'climbing mountains or socializing'.  Freud
would include a 4th) What did I (or you) hidden see that I wasn't
supposed to.  But I don't take much stock in Freud, except as a brave
'scout' in the forefront...

> But yes, the window is shut... as a screen and something to look
> through it is still there.  But In the dream I don't want to be
> seen really. At least not by everyone...

N: I sense the last thought in this post of yours (20/20 hindsight?)  I
assumed it was night so that you could see without being seem.  In a way
this is what terrorists tend toward.  Beyond that, it is not an
unreasonable assumption as parties most often occur at night...  and
tuxedoes (?)
   I guess I should asked how old you were in Your dream.  In my
dreaming-along-with you are
4 or 5.  Occasionally I have found that 'stories' = age felt valid, more
often not, I think.
   As I recall, it was not you who closed the window.  The window closed
(?)
>
> >    You have for some time (longer than I've known you) expressed an
> > interest in exploring a psychotherapy by email (have, in fact, been
> > using it as an adjunct).  But how to 'ground' this
> > escape (and if 'escape' is for the best) in ways so that time expended
> > meets money needed.
>
> Your comment resonates!  Thanks. I appreciate that you notice my
> interests and dilemmas.
>
> > How  many sections were there yet unfolded?  Three?  An awkward number
> > calling for a fourth, yet  develmentally a big step from one to one relationships to three.
>
> Three but they are tangled as well as unable to be unfolded while
> I sit on them.  It would take major gymnastics to unfold them,
> and then there are only three, while even a fourth would lead
> nowhere.

N: Are you on the top floor?  Generally one can take the weight off by
going up a story or
climbing on the roof.  But your fire escape is 'badly' tangled.  It
might take almost a miracle to untangle it (?)  And even then it
wouldn't quite be 'grounded.  But perhaps close
enough for you to safely 'drop' to earth?
>
> A question...
>
> How personally do you feel related to this dream, how OK is it
> for you to be in such a place... if you are.

N: In my conscious mind (after 2 weeks?) I am basically accompanying
you.  Would you like
me to truly 'pour myself' into your dream as if I had dreamt it?  I
will, if there is interest...
     Personally I still struggle with my 'specter at the window' who
said "This is how they poisoned the water."  I was then working with a
Jungian Analyst, who by odd circumstance happened to be a Feeling type
(much more discriminated than myself) and with a Sensation function that
drove my extreme Intuition up the wall.  The first thing she asked me
was "who
are 'they'"  My immediate reaction was 'THEY'?  Who cares?  Why was it
at my window?  Why a specter.  What did it mean by what it said?  etc.
     I have come tentatively to believe that 'they' were my parents
(perhaps both birth and archetypal) and that they had 'poisoned' the
waters of my unconscious by rainy on my parade.
By somehow failing to let me see that there was joy as well as sorrow in
this world.
>
> Another one...
>
> How is the online psychotherapy going?
>
> One of the tangles I see, is that I am not even happy to call
> anything online psychotherapy... anymore than I'd call a radio
> play a movie. Perhaps this is just a "hang up" I have, heheheh
>
> All for now,
>
> Walter

N: It is now my belief that 'therapy' is where you find it.  That human
therapists are too flawed themselves to avoid making their clients
problems often worse.  This has been pretty
much my experience after many years.  I won't claim that it would be
everyone's.  Nor can I say with any certainty what pitfalls I might have
stumbled into had I stayed out of therapy.
  The first analyst I saw (a Sullivanian) I came after 4 years to find
so damaging that when he suggested raising my fee, I walked out and
never came back. I still feel that quitting then was for the best.  Yet
there are flecks of gold in every sand pile.  I have since remembered
many things he said, that taken other than I then took them, make a
certain sense.  The one
that comes most immediately to mind is the way he told me he defended
himself from discouragement, in what can (at times) be a pretty slow
task.  He said that he'd learned that
sometimes what he said would come back to people years later, make sense
and be helpful.  There was truth in that.  (He also told me that he was
glad that the man whom he advised not to enter anthropology, did not
take his advice.  That man later wrote what was a definitive
book on Hospitals.  This confession was a 'grace note' on the part of my
analyst, I thought.)

   Best to all Psyberians,      Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:01:45 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Dan's GroupSense
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Psyber-L,

My friend Dan made the news today in the local paper!  I think it
all looks great Dan... if you are still reading here occasionally
:)

To get these words about online groups so clear has been a big
task Dan... congratulations.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:21:26 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         lwageck <lwageck@IO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dan's GroupSense
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

--------------------------
Walter,
I'm intrigued...how did Dan make the news?
What was the article about?

[As a  a friend of yours, I know article/news bound to
be positive,  i.e.being part of the answer,not part of
 the problem, etc.

Is he on our list?  Since I'm still farily new, i'm not
farmiliar with name...but itching with curiosity
to know the details!

Kindest regards,

Linda  ;-)
--------------------
> Psyber-L,
>
> My friend Dan made the news today in the local paper!  I think it
> all looks great Dan... if you are still reading here occasionally
> :)
>
> To get these words about online groups so clear has been a big
> task Dan... congratulations.
>
>
> Walter
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:27:48 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Dan's GroupSense
In-Reply-To:  <199907271821.NAA15722@anarchy.io.com>
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Linda all,


Oops I forgot to add the url!

http://www.press.co.nz/30/990727d4.htm

If you can access that all will be clear!

Yes, Dan is on the list.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:53:51 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Time & happiness
In-Reply-To:  <379CBF1F.9E663D0@negia.net>
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Nancy,

I have been reflecting on your thoughtful and fascinating post,
and there are interesting threads from here on some of them could
well branch off with a new subject line of their own as this post
is getting long, and some people find that harder to work with. I
have kept it together at this point as there seems to be a thread
(spun) that ties it all...


Feminine Divinity

> > I was thinking "sindow"... now there is something to explore!
>
> N:  True.  For me particularly to explore <g> as it is my typo.
> Sometimes 'coming about of' these typos are quite obvious to me.  This
> one is not.  Some of the things which occur to me are: 1) I am quite
> involved with trying to 'spin' for myself a feminine divinity equal too
> God.  Men  (in my experience) do not understand why it is so hard, nor
> perhaps, why it is so necessary. I often feel that it is a...
> blasphemy.

Spinning is important here i guess... one would not have a Bible
then, but a coat or a blanket.  I am comparing to the Christian
idea that in the beginning there was the Word.

It seems you have a feminine divinity seeking equality, a cosmic
feminist...

Could it be that the feminine divinities are already there, in
the right place as it were, but that we (with our unfortunate
conditioning) don't give them their due?

When I say we, I was thinking of men and women, but it is men, I
agree.

Even as i write, and am attempting to spin along with you, I feel
I am speaking a poor dialect of the feminine... or maybe even not
feminine at all.


Psychotherapy and Money

2) At some level I may feel that it is a 'sin' that people
> charge for 'psychotherapy' at all.  I won't even attempt to dignify that
> rationally.  We live in a barter economy.  How else is one to keep body
> and soul together?

I could go into this discussion with interest and pleasure... how
have those who attended to the soul been paid through the ages?


A sin to be in Cyberspace

> 3) I am almost 'all' introvert, and hence likely spend too much time
> with my computer rather than 'climbing mountains or socializing'.

I feel guilty about it a lot!  I would love to be absolved from
that!


Freud

> Freud would include a 4th) What did I (or you) hidden see that I wasn't
> supposed to.  But I don't take much stock in Freud, except as a brave
> 'scout' in the forefront...

An interesting question for all that... I don't have a sense of
having, you know, seen my parents having sex or something...
hmmmm???


Back to my dream:

> N: I sense the last thought in this post of yours (20/20 hindsight?)  I
> assumed it was night so that you could see without being seem.  In a way
> this is what terrorists tend toward.  Beyond that, it is not an
> unreasonable assumption as parties most often occur at night...  and
> tuxedoes (?)

"terrorist" is a good word here for me to explore.  I do not want
to be part of those male archetypes but nor do I want to just
hang out the window... do I want to be a revolutionary and go
against those values ... Yes... can I?  No.

>    I guess I should asked how old you were in Your dream.  In my
> dreaming-along-with you are
> 4 or 5.  Occasionally I have found that 'stories' = age felt valid, more
> often not, I think.
>    As I recall, it was not you who closed the window.  The window closed
> (?)

I had a sense of myself in the dream as my current age, 54...
heading for a Saturn return.  However... what if I was 4 or 5?  I
have a sense of myself as a curious observer at that age...


> N: Are you on the top floor?  Generally one can take the weight off by
> going up a story or
> climbing on the roof.  But your fire escape is 'badly' tangled.  It
> might take almost a miracle to untangle it (?)  And even then it
> wouldn't quite be 'grounded.  But perhaps close
> enough for you to safely 'drop' to earth?

Gong up seems very hard, but more possible than going down, down
is death, up would mean scaling at least one more story, with
nothing but bricks to cling to.

> > A question...
> >
> > How personally do you feel related to this dream, how OK is it
> > for you to be in such a place... if you are.
>
> N: In my conscious mind (after 2 weeks?) I am basically accompanying
> you.  Would you like
> me to truly 'pour myself' into your dream as if I had dreamt it?  I
> will, if there is interest...

I am interested.  I recall you saying "If this were my dream..."
so you have been doing that to some extent... I hope my interest
is enough.... though i have a sense of others reading along, and
that we might be treated with another POV at some point.


The Spectre at the Window.

Now we are heading into the territory of your dream...

>      Personally I still struggle with my 'specter at the window' who
> said "This is how they poisoned the water."  I was then working with a
> Jungian Analyst, who by odd circumstance happened to be a Feeling type
> (much more discriminated than myself) and with a Sensation function that
> drove my extreme Intuition up the wall.  The first thing she asked me
> was "who
> are 'they'"  My immediate reaction was 'THEY'?  Who cares?  Why was it
> at my window?  Why a specter.  What did it mean by what it said?  etc.
>      I have come tentatively to believe that 'they' were my parents
> (perhaps both birth and archetypal) and that they had 'poisoned' the
> waters of my unconscious by rainy on my parade.
> By somehow failing to let me see that there was joy as well as sorrow in
> this world.

Our dreams are linked in that they both have windows... and we
are relating to each other through a window... not just the
Microsoft one, they chose that name because of the more
archetypal connotations.  Were you involved with online
communication at the time of the dream?

Interesting that spectre at the window could be abbreviated to
sindow.

Nancy if it were my dream...

"This is how they poisoned the water" would refer to the dream
itself... I'd find that very scary.  That dreams might be
poisonous.  That 'they' ... and (in my dream) it would be evil
people (like nazis) could have that power is too terrible to
contemplate.

But then such a scary spectre could not be trusted either... so I
would experience a sort of logical dilemma, if they have poisoned
the water, ie dreams, then is this a poisonous dream?

The dream takes me into my doubt about my dreams in life... a
marriage that did not live up to my dream of it.  Project after
project that did not live up to my dreams.

~~~

Therapy


> N: It is now my belief that 'therapy' is where you find it.  That human
> therapists are too flawed themselves to avoid making their clients
> problems often worse.  This has been pretty
> much my experience after many years.  I won't claim that it would be
> everyone's.  Nor can I say with any certainty what pitfalls I might have
> stumbled into had I stayed out of therapy.
>   The first analyst I saw (a Sullivanian) I came after 4 years to find
> so damaging that when he suggested raising my fee, I walked out and
> never came back. I still feel that quitting then was for the best.  Yet
> there are flecks of gold in every sand pile.  I have since remembered
> many things he said, that taken other than I then took them, make a
> certain sense.  The one
> that comes most immediately to mind is the way he told me he defended
> himself from discouragement, in what can (at times) be a pretty slow
> task.  He said that he'd learned that
> sometimes what he said would come back to people years later, make sense
> and be helpful.  There was truth in that.  (He also told me that he was
> glad that the man whom he advised not to enter anthropology, did not
> take his advice.  That man later wrote what was a definitive
> book on Hospitals.  This confession was a 'grace note' on the part of my
> analyst, I thought.)


I have to come back to this later...

Perhaps in a new thread...

Thanks for reading this far it is a long post...

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:31:09 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Feminine Divinity
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Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Nancy,
>
> I have been reflecting on your thoughtful and fascinating post,

> Feminine Divinity
>
> > > I was thinking "sindow"... now there is something to explore!
> >
> > N:  True.  For me particularly to explore <g> as it is my typo.
> > Sometimes 'coming about of' these typos are quite obvious to me.  This
> > one is not.  Some of the things which occur to me are: 1) I am quite
> > involved with trying to 'spin' for myself a feminine divinity equal too
> > God.  Men  (in my experience) do not understand why it is so hard, nor
> > perhaps, why it is so necessary. I often feel that it is a...
> > blasphemy.
>
> Spinning is important here i guess... one would not have a Bible
> then, but a coat or a blanket.  I am comparing to the Christian
> idea that in the beginning there was the Word.

N; I refer here to Rumplestiltskin.  Would that one could make the
'tyrants'
of this world go 'poof!' by the wily learning of their names.

> It seems you have a feminine divinity seeking equality, a cosmic
> feminist...

> Could it be that the feminine divinities are already there, in
> the right place as it were, but that we (with our unfortunate
> conditioning) don't give them their due?

N: I have been told that the original Aramaic word for God meant
Mother/Father
God.  But that some early translator changed it to the masculing.  Any
scholars
on the list?
>
> When I say we, I was thinking of men and women, but it is men, I
> agree.

N: The men don't seem to quite see the need.  But I guess that I mean
'I', for how men saw Feminine Divinity would matter less to me if I were
able to establish a deep, personal and heart-felt connect to...  I chose
Sophia (sometimes referred to as God's Playmate from the beginning.)

> Even as i write, and am attempting to spin along with you, I feel
> I am speaking a poor dialect of the feminine... or maybe even not
> feminine at all.

N: I don't fault you here, Walter.  My  own dialect is not all I wish it
were.  Nor do I lawd the Feminists.  I no more anxious to return to
matriarchy than to destroy the gains made under patriarchy.  I tend to
agree that 'power corrupts' and who like to move beyond our differences
to a society that dwelt on our similarities.  But I feel that more
consciousness is needed on both sides to do this.
   Why, for example, do we excuses a sinner by saying, "Well, he's only
human."  (And yes, as I've heard it it is usually 'he')  Does being
human make us more vulnerable to err than to transcend outselves?

   Thanks for returning to my post, Walter.  Anyone else wanting to be
heard?

   Love,   Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:00:30 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Psychotherapy and money
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Psychotherapy and Money
>
> 2) At some level I may feel that it is a 'sin' that people
> > charge for 'psychotherapy' at all.  I won't even attempt to dignify that
> > rationally.  We live in a barter economy.  How else is one to keep body
> > and soul together?
>
> I could go into this discussion with interest and pleasure... how
> have those who attended to the soul been paid through the ages?

N: As it happens I live in a primarily 'Behaviorists' region, where
'tending the soul' seems fairly irrelevant with most therapists.  But
that aside I would be inclined to divide past therapy and soul tending.
Most of the soul tending 'appeared' to come from 'the church'.  Even as
today I suspect the quality of that attending depended a lot on the
quality of the individual priest.  So seldom, it seems have the
'churches' (whichever) lived up to their own standards.  And for the
larger ones it seems often to have been a case of 'bleed the poor' that
we may build monuments to God, and let their flocks increase.  I wonder
if a God (or Goddess) I would respect enough to worship, would really
want expensive monuments?

  When 'power corrupts' it seems to do so first as inflation.

  The other part of attending the soul came from friends, family and
communities.  There the payment was 'in kind'.  As we often hear, in our
mobile economy, these mainstays have been weakened.  And even then they
were somewhat subject to 'popularity contests' and ostracism.

  Even at these earlier times, I would have it 'attend me because I am a
human soul' rather than 'attend to me because I agree with and support
all your beliefs.'

  Money is, I suppose, power.  I heard just recently on TV of how the
collection of tattooed heads of native New Zealanders became collector
pieces to the English.  Can
soul be found on either side of these transaction?

  Again, this is not a private discussion, if anyone is interested in
this topic.  What I think distresses me most in our society is the
seeming lack of responsibility for results in  return for money.  This
is true in all fields, I think.  I do not wish to pay simply for
people's 'time' while I donate mine.

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:55:39 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Walter's Dream
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Back to my dream:

>
> > N: I sense the last thought in this post of yours (20/20 hindsight?)  I
> > assumed it was night so that you could see without being seen.  In a way
> > this is what terrorists tend toward.  Beyond that, it is not an
> > unreasonable assumption as parties most often occur at night...  and
> > tuxedoes (?)

N: Ouch!  My typo.  I,  of course, meant 'therapists'.  But I did it, so
now I must account (at least  to myself)
  I don't think, Walter, that this one was provoked by you.  I think it
has to do
with a personal issue between me and a daughter.  To broaden it a
little, it may have to do with the resentment I feel for the 'Let's
blame mothers (or women) for all of their children's faults, lacks...
etc.  I understand that this is lessening a little, but less than many
would have us believe.  Aside from the harm it does women, I feel it is
depriving children (and fathers) of the sense of responsibility they
need to become functional adults.  Again it is so deeply ingrained that
challenges go almost unheard.  "The hand that rocks the cradle, rules
the world."
Oh, yah?  How about the hand that cripples the hand that rocks the
cradle?
  Sometimes I think that in 'destroying' a female divinity, we have
deified the ordinary woman and her own abilities to be (to quote
Winnicott) a 'good enough mother.
>
> "terrorist" is a good word here for me to explore.  I do not want
> to be part of those male archetypes but nor do I want to just
> hang out the window... do I want to be a revolutionary and go
> against those values ... Yes... can I?  No.

N; Patients would not be referred to you?  Or...?  Aren't you saying
much the same thing here about therapists that I (topic straying) just
said about mothers?
>
> >    I guess I should asked how old you were in Your dream.  In my
> > dreaming-along-with you are
> > 4 or 5.  Occasionally I have found that 'stories' = age felt valid, more
> > often not, I think.
> >    As I recall, it was not you who closed the window.  The window closed
> > (?)
>
> I had a sense of myself in the dream as my current age, 54...
> heading for a Saturn return.  However... what if I was 4 or 5?  I
> have a sense of myself as a curious observer at that age...

N: Yes. I also, but often a distressed observer.
   You have said you 'felt unseen'  as I did as a child.  Only I have a
leftover sense of identification with The Little Match Girl and other
'poor' children left out in the snow to press their noses to the windows
of family warmth.
   I did not encode that in my comments on your dream because I got no
hint of such feeling in what you wrote.  Nor have I noticed them as a
significant presence in other posts about yourself.  So I had no reason
to suppose that they would fit.
>
> > N: Are you on the top floor?  Generally one can take the weight off by
> > going up a story or
> > climbing on the roof.  But your fire escape is 'badly' tangled.  It
> > might take almost a miracle to untangle it (?)  And even then it
> > wouldn't quite be 'grounded.  But perhaps close
> > enough for you to safely 'drop' to earth?
>
> Gong up seems very hard, but more possible than going down, down
> is death, up would mean scaling at least one more story, with
> nothing but bricks to cling to.

N: Here is seems that we have a 'dream circumstance contrary to fact'
(or do we?)
Don't fire escapes usually go to the top of a building.  Perhaps it
might be worth
multiplying the 'stories'/'age' by 10.  Then instead of four or five we
would have forty or fifty.  Few climb a great deal higher in their
professions after the mid fifties (though there are exceptions)
  You are not discontent with where you are.  For most of us a decent
would be an Ego death.  In Alchemical terms it might take a fire to make
you take that risk.
>
> > > A question...
> > >
> > > How personally do you feel related to this dream, how OK is it
> > > for you to be in such a place... if you are.
> >
> > N: In my conscious mind (after 2 weeks?) I am basically accompanying
> > you.  Would you like
> > me to truly 'pour myself' into your dream as if I had dreamt it?  I
> > will, if there is interest...
>
> I am interested.  I recall you saying "If this were my dream..."
> so you have been doing that to some extent... I hope my interest
> is enough.... though i have a sense of others reading along, and
> that we might be treated with another POV at some point.

N: Even as, despite my care to limit, anything I say about anther's
dream will be tainted by my own POV.  I think I have mentioned the main
point with "The Little
Match Girl" bit.
   What else I would have to say would apply to my own experience with
such fire escapes.  I associate them with building of a lower to middle
class socioeconomic level.  I have never lived (not visited, I think) a
building with such a fire escape.  But for a time when I was about 9 I
saw them daily from the Illinois Central.  In hot weather I would often
see men in undershirts sitting on them to cool themselves.  I also
associate them with alleys as they seem often to come down there.  Yet
again, I had no reason to apply these associations to your dream.
   I do remember that those views used to fascinate me.  I was getting
little glimpses of other lives.  I don't think the socioeconomic level
mattered so much, except perhaps the wealthy were better able to project
their lives from observation.

   Another ending,   Nancy
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 14:38:11 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Nancy's Dream
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:

>
> The Spectre at the Window.
>
> Now we are heading into the territory of your dream...
>
> >      Personally I still struggle with my 'specter at the window' who
> > said "This is how they poisoned the water."  I was then working with a
> > Jungian Analyst, who by odd circumstance happened to be a Feeling type
> > (much more discriminated than myself) and with a Sensation function that
> > drove my extreme Intuition up the wall.  The first thing she asked me
> > was "who
> > are 'they'"  My immediate reaction was 'THEY'?  Who cares?  Why was it
> > at my window?  Why a specter.  What did it mean by what it said?  etc.
> >      I have come tentatively to believe that 'they' were my parents
> > (perhaps both birth and archetypal) and that they had 'poisoned' the
> > waters of my unconscious by rainy on my parade.
> > By somehow failing to let me see that there was joy as well as sorrow in
> > this world.
>
> Our dreams are linked in that they both have windows... and we
> are relating to each other through a window... not just the
> Microsoft one, they chose that name because of the more
> archetypal connotations.  Were you involved with online
> communication at the time of the dream?

N: No.  I was not, even at work.
>
> Interesting that spectre at the window could be abbreviated to
> sindow.

N: Not impossible.  What strikes me most is that 'win' and 'sin' are
such opposites.  Also it is the 21st letter of the Hebrew alphabet, and
by that I don't mean to diminish your suggestion.  I think when I dreamt
of the specter I was not 'in a state of grace'.  I was feeling pretty
alienated from myself.

>
> Nancy if it were my dream...
>
> "This is how they poisoned the water" would refer to the dream
> itself... I'd find that very scary.  That dreams might be
> poisonous.  That 'they' ... and (in my dream) it would be evil
> people (like nazis) could have that power is too terrible to
> contemplate.

N:  Interesting.  We just had a brief discussion about this on another
list, that while we Jungians are encouraged to look  on all dreams as
messages to be welcomed from the unconscious, could it be that some
dreams are actually harmful?
   I do 'analyze' the good will of the messenger along with the
message.  This specter was not pretty, the little that could be seen.
It reminds me of one of the furies or death.
   'They' has long been associated for me with somewhat paranoid states.
>
> But then such a scary spectre could not be trusted either... so I
> would experience a sort of logical dilemma, if they have poisoned
> the water, ie dreams, then is this a poisonous dream?

N: Yes.  I didn't not sense it as a 'poisonous dream' then or now...
except if I am still carrying that poison around in my unconscious and
trying unconsciously to reconcile 'reality' (whatever that is) with my
poisoned view...  Yet don't we all to some degree do this?
>
> The dream takes me into my doubt about my dreams in life... a
> marriage that did not live up to my dream of it.  Project after
> project that did not live up to my dreams.

M:  Yes.  I've had that one...  no so long after the other.  I was with
a short robed figure going down in the elevator at the Daily Planet.  As
we bottomed and the door opened I looked out on a desolate scene.  In
the foreground a bunch of cavemen were clubbing a large stuffed dragon.
On all the horizons were blacked, burned out, abandoned castles.
   May all your dreams be healing dreams,  Nancy

P.S. I still want you know how your window got closed.
P.S.S.  Today is my birthday.  Your post and my answers to it have been
my presents for me.  (And, No, Robert, I tell you which birthday.)
> ~~~
>
> Therapy
>
> > N: It is now my belief that 'therapy' is where you find it.  That human
> > therapists are too flawed themselves to avoid making their clients
> > problems often worse.  This has been pretty
> > much my experience after many years.  I won't claim that it would be
> > everyone's.  Nor can I say with any certainty what pitfalls I might have
> > stumbled into had I stayed out of therapy.
> >   The first analyst I saw (a Sullivanian) I came after 4 years to find
> > so damaging that when he suggested raising my fee, I walked out and
> > never came back. I still feel that quitting then was for the best.  Yet
> > there are flecks of gold in every sand pile.  I have since remembered
> > many things he said, that taken other than I then took them, make a
> > certain sense.  The one
> > that comes most immediately to mind is the way he told me he defended
> > himself from discouragement, in what can (at times) be a pretty slow
> > task.  He said that he'd learned that
> > sometimes what he said would come back to people years later, make sense
> > and be helpful.  There was truth in that.  (He also told me that he was
> > glad that the man whom he advised not to enter anthropology, did not
> > take his advice.  That man later wrote what was a definitive
> > book on Hospitals.  This confession was a 'grace note' on the part of my
> > analyst, I thought.)
>
> I have to come back to this later...
>
> Perhaps in a new thread...
>
> Thanks for reading this far it is a long post...
>
> Walter
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 14:06:17 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter's Dream
MIME-Version: 1.0
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              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BEDA94.B10EBA60"
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----------
hi guys i'm back been outta the water for about 2 months
heres a little something i wrote

SARASWATI'S MILK
        There was once an Ocean of Milk that Flowed from Saraswati's (The Goddess
of learning) Breasts. Our Son Ravana (Whom later I must Kill to enlighten),
Urinated into the Ocean of Milk?.!  Since I am responsible for all I create
I was obligated to Drink The Urilk by the Other pantheons.  After Drinking
the Urilk I became Emblazoned With Desire so intensely that I was Forced By
the Other Pantheons to go to one of my Nearest Mates, Shakti (The Goddess
of Energy).  I'm glad it was Shakti that was Nearest To Me, for She, like
Kali, is one of the few who can be Truly Insatiable, and, has as potent a
life force as can be Manifested In This Continuum. As we MADE LOVE Infinite
Universes were Created within every shade of Ego between I AM and i am not.

        A Multiple-continuumconglomeration-Eventhorizon/VORTEX erupted from Our
navels and became Par-Brahman (Beyond formful Creations), Our Son.  After
nurturing Par-Brahman to maturity, SHAKTI released the remaining Milk of
Her Breasts into the Void I left after drinking The Urilk.........This Time
The MILK TASTED OF Honey!


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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"><br><br>----------<br>hi guys i'm back =
been outta the water for about 2 months<br>heres a little something i =
wrote<br><br></p>
<p align=3Dcenter><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New">SARASWATI'S MILK =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<p>&#009;There was once an Ocean of Milk that Flowed from Saraswati's =
(The Goddess of learning) Breasts. Our Son Ravana (Whom later I must =
Kill to enlighten), Urinated into the Ocean of Milk?.! &nbsp;Since I am =
responsible for all I create I was obligated to Drink The Urilk by the =
Other pantheons. &nbsp;After Drinking the Urilk I became Emblazoned With =
Desire so intensely that I was Forced By the Other Pantheons to go to =
one of my Nearest Mates, Shakti (The Goddess of Energy). &nbsp;I'm glad =
it was Shakti that was Nearest To Me, for She, like Kali, is one of the =
few who can be Truly Insatiable, and, has as potent a life force as can =
be Manifested In This Continuum. As we MADE LOVE Infinite Universes were =
Created within every shade of Ego between I AM and i am not. =
&nbsp;<br>&#009;A Multiple-continuumconglomeration-Eventhorizon/VORTEX =
erupted from Our navels and became Par-Brahman (Beyond formful =
Creations), Our Son. &nbsp;After nurturing Par-Brahman to maturity, =
SHAKTI released the remaining Milk of Her Breasts into the Void I left =
after drinking The Urilk.........This Time The MILK TASTED OF =
Honey!<br><br><font size=3D2 face=3D"Arial"><br></p>
</font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BEDA94.B10EBA60--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Jul 1999 16:32:20 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Nancy's Dream
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Nancy,

You wrote ( Saturday, July 31, 1999):

: P.S.S.  Today is my birthday.  Your post and my answers to it have been
: my presents for me.  (And, No, Robert, I tell you which birthday.)


Congratulations on your birthday!  This is also  my  best friend's
birthday.  I'm  just  leaving  for her  birthday party, but  before leaving
some words about dreams. You pondered:

: could it be that some dreams are actually harmful?

I think that dreams are never  harmful, but our  conscious attitude  may be
harmful - too rigid, too repressive and so on.  Dreams  are mythopoetics,
products of our creative imagination. And  creativity is  asocial like
dreams.
 Not all  dreams are messages, only remembered dreams.  They communicate
with us like art and poetry.  We can   analyse them by  dividing   them into
parts, just  like  Claude Levi-Strauss  did to the  Oedipus-myth.  Then he
put the parts ( mythems)  on the two axes ( vertical and horizontal). So he
recollected  the  myth   and  found what was its message   and meaning.  In
Antonioni's film  Blow- Up,  there is a photographer who  use the same
semiotic method with photos,  and  so he gets on the track of a murder.   I
think that it is a good method to analyse our dreams.   If you can  remember
what triggered  your dream , you're on the track.

Now, I must  hurry up to the party.

Best wishes
Anita


anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Jul 1999 07:50:03 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Robert_G=2E_Longpr=E9=22?=
              <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Nancy's Dream
In-Reply-To:  <37A21B43.41E3E80A@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Nancy,

>P.S.S.  Today is my birthday.  Your post and my answers to it have been
>my presents for me.  (And, No, Robert, I tell you which birthday.)

Bonne f=EAte ~ Bonne anniversaire ~ Happy Birthday!

I celebrated my 50th on the 22nd of July ... still a little wet behind the
ears and needing a few more decades before I can gain enough wisdom to
offer much that is worth listening to. =20

I wish I had more time for participation here but RL is crowding me with
numerous tasks and demands for presence that leave me unable to check out
my e-mail as often as I would like.  This will all change after the 16th of
August when I move to live in a small house ... to live on my own while
Maureen continues to live in our HOME (she will be taking a local college
course and my daughter Natasha will be taking her second year of university
classes in the local (half hour away) college which means that she will be
staying with Maureen).

Curiously, I find that I haven't been taking time to record my dreams for
the past few months even though I have been going through an active period
of dreaming.  Please know that I think of you and all of our friends here
on PSYBER-L even in my absence.

Again, best wishes for a sunny day that extends into peaceful dreams ...
happy birthday, Nancy  :-)

rgl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:54:09 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Nancy's Dream
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Anita,
  Nice to hear from you.

Anita Konkka wrote:
>
> Hi Nancy,
>
> You wrote ( Saturday, July 31, 1999):

N: Here it was Friday July 30th.
>
> : P.S.S.  Today is my birthday.  Your post and my answers to it have been
> : my presents for me.  (And, No, Robert, I tell you which birthday.)
>
> Congratulations on your birthday!  This is also  my  best friend's
> birthday.  I'm  just  leaving  for her  birthday party, but  before leaving
> some words about dreams. You pondered:
>
> : could it be that some dreams are actually harmful?
>
> I think that dreams are never  harmful, but our  conscious attitude  may be
> harmful - too rigid, too repressive and so on.  Dreams  are mythopoetics,
> products of our creative imagination. And  creativity is  asocial like
> dreams.

N; Yes.  I'd always heard (and thought) is as 'Jungian party line'.  But
first
someone one another list, then Walter questioned it, and I began to
think, is this possible?
  Did you mean 'asocial' or 'amoral' (as John Beebe one said of the
Self.)

>  Not all  dreams are messages, only remembered dreams.  They communicate
> with us like art and poetry.  We can   analyse them by  dividing   them into
> parts, just  like  Claude Levi-Strauss  did to the  Oedipus-myth.  Then he
> put the parts ( mythems)  on the two axes ( vertical and horizontal). So he
> recollected  the  myth   and  found what was its message   and meaning.  In
> Antonioni's film  Blow- Up,  there is a photographer who  use the same
> semiotic method with photos,  and  so he gets on the track of a murder.   I
> think that it is a good method to analyse our dreams.   If you can  remember
> what triggered  your dream , you're on the track.

N:  Yes.  I saw that movie.  About dreams, I think it is ok to just
'incubate' them also, i.e. hold them in your thoughts without actively
analysing.  Sometimes something more will come to you.
>
  Thanks for your comments,
           Nancy
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Jul 1999 11:01:09 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Nancy's Dream
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Robert,
   Thank you for your kind wishes.
   I would fear that your new duties at the French School would leave
you with even less time for 'e-asing' (OK.  I apologize <g>) and also
hope it will not be so.
   Good luck to you and 'we'll look for you when we see you' (as we say
in the U.S.)
            Nancy

"Robert G. Longpr" wrote:
>
> Nancy,
>
> >P.S.S.  Today is my birthday.  Your post and my answers to it have been
> >my presents for me.  (And, No, Robert, I tell you which birthday.)
>
> Bonne fte ~ Bonne anniversaire ~ Happy Birthday!
>
> I celebrated my 50th on the 22nd of July ... still a little wet behind the
> ears and needing a few more decades before I can gain enough wisdom to
> offer much that is worth listening to.
>
> I wish I had more time for participation here but RL is crowding me with
> numerous tasks and demands for presence that leave me unable to check out
> my e-mail as often as I would like.  This will all change after the 16th of
> August when I move to live in a small house ... to live on my own while
> Maureen continues to live in our HOME (she will be taking a local college
> course and my daughter Natasha will be taking her second year of university
> classes in the local (half hour away) college which means that she will be
> staying with Maureen).
>
> Curiously, I find that I haven't been taking time to record my dreams for
> the past few months even though I have been going through an active period
> of dreaming.  Please know that I think of you and all of our friends here
> on PSYBER-L even in my absence.
>
> Again, best wishes for a sunny day that extends into peaceful dreams ...
> happy birthday, Nancy  :-)
>
> rgl
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Jul 1999 13:38:51 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Time & happiness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 7/24/99 10:57:39 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> It sounds like counselling to me, because the *agreement* is not
>  to let the psyche or soul take the lead, and let it lead us where
>  it will while we *attend* to the soul... you have an
>  understanding to attend to the social and personal processes...
>  (perhaps only tacitly).  I'd call that counselling, but the terms
>  are fluid, and vary around the world too.  I think that the sort
>  of work you do can be soulful, psychotherapeutic... however it
>  must also stay within its own (possibly tacit) agreed boundaries.
>  It is the more soulful for that!
>
>  About objectivity... I think of the psyche as being able to lead
>  us... there is something there to follow... Jung was fond of
>  thinking what he did as *empirical* exploration of that.
>
>  It would seem to me that it is harder to be objective about
>  something so ethereal than the more immediate thoughts and
>  feelings of your clients...
>
>  How idea all that sound to you?

Hello, Walter, all :)

I know my response may not follow the latest thread, but maybe it does?  I do
want to respond to your thoughts, but it looks like my involvement will
probably be limited to week ends, when I have *free* time ;)

I agree, Walter, that it is difficult to be objective in the presence of the
thoughts and feelings of clients, which for my clients are particularly
intense and traumatic.  And, I do agree that the terms counseling and
psychotherapy are fluid, in some respects.  But, I think, and others have
told me, very little of what I *do* with my clients is psychotherapy.  If
there is any psychotherapeutic presence in the birth/adoption/triad, it is in
the process and experience of the process itself.  During that period,
though, it is difficult for the birth parents, those around them, including
the adoptive parents to *see* the soulfulness that is present during that
period.

Is it primarily the soul that leads us into these experiences?  IMO, the
elements of psychotherapy are present in the process, but are unlikely to be
seen during the process, though.  In this respect, is the dream work you and
Nancy have been writing about another dimension of psychotherapy?
Discovering and exploring places and spaces the soul wishes us to attend?

I like what Anita wrote, that if you can remember what triggers your dreams,
you're on the right track.  IMO this extends to an individual's experiences
in rl, traumatic or otherwise.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Jul 1999 13:38:52 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Cyberspace hazards
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 7/24/99 11:10:26 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> > We have minor grandchildren in our home
>  > for the summer.   For several weeks  we have received
>  > some (at first) "odd" email messages.
>  > Later they got down right personal/ abusive.
>
>  Sorry to hear about your problems with that.  Not good.  And i
>  can see that you are having some problems in sorting it all out.
>  How is it going?
>
>  Sheryl... how are you doing with getting those posts in error?
>  All of these things can be very hurtful.

I think it has been sorted out, thanks Walter... although I will see what
happens when I post to Psyber-L this morning :)  From what Linda has written
to me, she has been having quite a time!

It was a strange experience for me, not so much hurtful as just cognitively
dissonant.  There are so many interactions in cyberspace that can be
perceived in a hurtful way... but, as you wrote in the subject line, it is a
cyberspace hazard, a risk we all take when we reach out to others.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Jul 1999 22:28:36 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Changes
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19990731073915.00969aa0@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert,

Re: Nancy's Dream
Sat, 31 Jul 1999 07:50:03 -0600

> This will all change after the 16th of
> August when I move to live in a small house ... to live on my own while
> Maureen continues to live in our HOME (she will be taking a local college
> course and my daughter Natasha will be taking her second year of university
> classes in the local (half hour away) college which means that she will be
> staying with Maureen).

This sound like changes even more significant than those in your
career.  What does it all mean for you Robert?  Is this simply a
change of living arrangement, or is it also a crisis in your
marriage?  Or perhaps the resolution of one?  The way you
emphasise HOME... is that anger?

One of the positives is that it may be easier for you to get to
your email, perhaps a minor compensation in the midst of larger
changes.

Look for ward to hearing from you.


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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