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To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 May 1999 03:18:11 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Lynne Saba
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Lynne Saba,

Welcome to Psyber-L ~ Exploring the psyche in cyberspace.  Quite a mouth
full but it does broadly define what we are on about, and in your intro
below you indicate your interest in this.

There are about 30 of us here, you can see who they are with  Review
Psyber-L command to the listserv.  You can also explore about 5 years of
archives.  About 10 of us contribute regularly & most have at some time or
other.  It has been a quiet here for a few days, we have been facing the war
in Yugoslavia, the shootings in Denver.  Illness and death has also been on
the agenda here in more personal ways... to my mind we have been attending
to these things with authenticity and care, also with an eye to the
complexities of psyche. As usual there are a myriad of unfinished threads,
some of them more playful, any of which could revive at any time.

I hope you find this an interesting forum!

Walter


> I am a Clinical Psychologist who also teaches online
> and obviously because of this I am interested in how
> the web, or internet affects the mind and other social
> processes.  I am looking forward to other interaction
> with my colleagues or others in the group.
>
> Lynne Saba Ph.D.
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 May 1999 11:51:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Lynne Saba
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whats up doc=) i havent been participating much here since my keyboard has
been missing a few teeth, but now i'm back in the bandwidth with a new
wireless model. i can do it all from my bed now ahhh... good thing i am very
active or i'd really be a loafer eh?
ok wel have you ever heard of transpersonal psycology? ken wilber? the atman
project?
is neurosis as common as setting a clock ahead 10 minutes?
is undoing as common as Mass[catholic]?
is psychosis as common as slamming your hand on the desk in anger at your
keyboard?
is sociopathy as common as someone who is waiting for thier god to come back
and vanquish all the world?

heh=)


>Walter
>
>
>> I am a Clinical Psychologist who also teaches online
>> and obviously because of this I am interested in how
>> the web, or internet affects the mind and other social
>> processes.  I am looking forward to other interaction
>> with my colleagues or others in the group.
>>
>> Lynne Saba Ph.D.
>> _________________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 May 1999 11:54:04 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Poem:  The Second Coming - W.B.Yeats
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The Second Coming  - W.B.Yeats

---------------------------------------------------

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction; the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand;
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of *Spiritus Mundi*
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.


The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?


- W.B.Yeats


1920


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 May 1999 11:59:33 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: war and school and process, horror and soul
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Nancy,

Thanks for the poem.  The word falconiforms was a bit of a mystery to me.
Then i stumbled onto the Yeats poem "The Second Coming" which i have just
sent up... the poem spoke to the same disturbing feeling I felt in your
poem, and which is never far away in this time of war.  Perhaps your poem is
a reference to that in Yeats?

Walter


Your poem quoted below:







~~~



  Inanima

The singing of missiles..
A round, where one begins
   before another ceases.
Merry each
  to fullfill its purpose.
So long a journey.
So short a fall.
So dramatic a finale...

With each,
  rubble sprays on rubble.
Some tinged with red
  to mellow into rust.
Sunlight strains through dust
  of factories that were.
In a sense...
   each returning home.

Fragments of steel,
  no longer file cases,
  beige-flaked with folders.
The fingers of a clerics hand,
  twitchless.
Too strewn to wring...  or pray.
Born to feed...
  the falconiformes



Nancy 4/27/99

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__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 May 1999 08:02:22 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Poem:  The Second Coming - W.B.Yeats
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Walter,
Thanks for reminding me of this poem...read so long ago but so appropro
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 May 1999 08:00:52 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Lynne Saba
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Lynne,
I was interested to see you teach online...I had early on experience with
it as well as participating in the California Institute for Integral
Studies on-line PHD program in transformation learning...I haven't been
involved for a few years so would be interested in hearing about your
experience...my own learning experience was very powerful at CIIS tho the
experimental group I was in disbanded because the head was a traditionalist
and merely assigned reading and papers with little interaction while the
other groups were doing collaboration in assignments as well as research...

Looking forward to your input
Judith



> I am a Clinical Psychologist who also teaches online
> and obviously because of this I am interested in how
> the web, or internet affects the mind and other social
> processes.  I am looking forward to other interaction
> with my colleagues or others in the group.
>
> Lynne Saba Ph.D.

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 May 1999 08:55:43 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Poem:  The Second Coming - W.B.Yeats
In-Reply-To:  <37328ddc.56442041@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

thx Walter.

Synched up with a post sent to me today containing URL's with Millennial
flavor; although I've always related to the Yeats poem on its psychological
import alone.

***

Stephen

ps.

[ from http://village.infoweb.or.jp/~fxba0053/ ]

We declare that we are forming alternative society based on completely
different system from that of nations. No people nor systems control and
are not under control, word "rule" is not there, born from the earth, no
building on the earth, existing with the earth, returning to the earth, our
each relationship is based on love, freedom, wisdom. This idea supports the
new society. We call the society "The Tribal Society".

Young generations in US, Europe, Japan and other countries are forming lots
of "The Tribal Society" quietly and certainly in cities, mountains, farm
villages, seaside and islands. In at least ten or twenty years, "United
Tribes" will be formed and we will keep watching nations disappear. We are
producing the way - for survival, not for death.

For personal, the way leads us to eternal and immortal self, not to
disappear with death of the body.

We recommend all people on the earth to join "The Tribes". Concretely, that
is dropping out from separated life, family, job, education, national
thinking in national society. Or abandonment of private property such as
money, real estate, house, working tools, education, medical care, study,
books, transportation system, manufacturing, market and consumption. We
leave all of them to "The Tribes". "The Tribes" is the great character made
from our hearts and wisdom, and at the same time "He" is our friend. We and
he love each other.

From wider and wider and cosmic point of view, and with brightness of
wisdom, as whole universe is God's lila, our movement to outside is game
which our each whole life execute. The society is the place for the game.
Here, we are in the game and are masters of the game.

We have duty deep inside ourselves. It is called nirvana, awareness or
realization. And it is said that "This duty is completed with countless
transmigration. This is His or God's lila". One way for this duty is to
meditate far away from town without any comfort, but our way is to do game
named life and our game field is "The Tribal Society".

If there is only defference in rule between national and "Tribal" society,
why do we choose "Tribal" society, not national one?

Our main concern is, to the last, each awareness, nirvana or realization.
Whole universe is Hari's appearance or lila. We will proceed the game and
conform "Tribal" society based on the truth that everyone is God. Here,
there is no confusion nor being under control nor misunderstanding between
game and duty nor loosing true duty. We will go deep inside straight with
our love, freedom and wisdom. Idling in the game will not be found out.
Humanbeings will find out the way and Each of us will find the way to
eternal self.

Tribal Society shine on the whole earth like the sunshine in dawn in order
to recover internal breath, earth's breath, soul's breath for the people
living breathlessly in national societies. Back to the mother earth!
Recover the earth's breath inside us!

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 May 1999 09:45:15 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: war and school and process, horror and soul
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Nancy,
>
> Thanks for the poem.  The word falconiforms was a bit of a mystery to me.

N: It is the classification which includes both vultures and hawks.

> Then i stumbled onto the Yeats poem "The Second Coming" which i have just
> sent up... the poem spoke to the same disturbing feeling I felt in your
> poem, and which is never far away in this time of war.  Perhaps your poem is
> a reference to that in Yeats?
>
> Walter

N: Wow!  It wasn't a conscious reference, but there are so many echoes
I'm
wondering if it wasn't an unconcious one from long ago school days.  The
only
part I actually recognized were the last two lines which one hears or
sees
often.  "...slouching toward Bethlehem."

  Thanks for posting that!.

        Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 May 1999 09:38:09 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Poem:  The Second Coming - W.B.Yeats
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Stephen Calhoun quotes from a Millinium group:

>  Concretely, that
> is dropping out from separated life, family, job, education, national
> thinking in national society. Or abandonment of private property such as
> money, real estate, house, working tools, education, medical care, study,
> books, transportation system, manufacturing, market and consumption. We
> leave all of them to "The Tribes".

N: Er...  ah...  forgive my cenicism, but...  Kool Aid anyone?

     Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 May 1999 07:40:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: war and school and process, horror and soul
In-Reply-To:  <372DD29B.2C30F98C@negia.net>
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Nancy,

> The only part I actually recognized were the last
> two lines which one hears or sees
> often.  "...slouching toward Bethlehem."

What i make of that is that Yeats sees a rough beast in the new millennium
... and the last two were a nightmare ... the first and second coming are a
nightmare.

The lines that I knew, but not from having heard the poem:

The best lack all conviction; the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

They describe the dilemma I find myself in... if I am my "best" I lack
conviction, and if I allow my passionate intensity, i feel worst!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 May 1999 08:38:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Poem:  The Second Coming - W.B.Yeats
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a01b3535a6484f0@[207.54.160.129]>
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Stephen

> Synched up with a post sent to me today containing URL's with Millennial
> flavor; although I've always related to the Yeats poem on its psychological
> import alone.

What do you make of it at that psychological level... do you see it as
referring to the psyche... is his beast a metaphor for the soul?

As for the tribes...

I am still recovering from my commune days in 60s and 70s.  What really gave
me the intellectual push out of that scene was Engles:  Socialism - Utopian
and Scientific, (1880).

Life has given me a few more shoves since then.

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 May 1999 10:36:16 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: war and school and process, horror and soul
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Walter Logeman wrote about Yeats poem "Second Coming":
>>
> What i make of that is that Yeats sees a rough beast in the new millennium
> ... and the last two were a nightmare ... the first and second coming are a
> nightmare.

N: Huh...  The 'rough beast' reminds me of the Sphinx (whose rising
would
I expect alarm the birds.)
   The rest reminds me of the Book of Revelation (which I know only by
hearsay) and the many books. movies and TV drama about the '2nd coming'
being
the anti-Christ, and the errant groups which have now fixed on the 2nd
millennium for his birth.
>
> The lines that I knew, but not from having heard the poem:
>
> The best lack all conviction; the worst
> Are full of passionate intensity.
>
> They describe the dilemma I find myself in... if I am my "best" I lack
> conviction, and if I allow my passionate intensity, i feel worst!
>
> Walter

N; Sounds like the divided 'wholeness' in you warring to me, Walter,
i.e.
your 'passionate intensity' does not know where to direct itself.
(I'm sure you have thought of this, but world affairs aside, this is
something of a natural 'anticlimactic' state which seems to follow the
achievement of a goal long and arduously sought.)

       Peace will come,   Nancy
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 May 1999 05:31:12 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      neurosis
In-Reply-To:  <000601be94b3$ac75a300$1d04c7d8@default>
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Wayne

What struck me about what you say here Wayne is that all the really
*interesting things* might be a bit sick!

Please say more!

Walter

> ok wel have you ever heard of transpersonal psycology? ken wilber? the atman
> project?
> is neurosis as common as setting a clock ahead 10 minutes?
> is undoing as common as Mass[catholic]?
> is psychosis as common as slamming your hand on the desk in anger at your
> keyboard?
> is sociopathy as common as someone who is waiting for thier god to come back
> and vanquish all the world?

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 May 1999 10:40:12 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Bombs Tornados Butterflies
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi all,
Just more musings...

We've all heard the weather theory that a butterfly flapping its wings in
one place affects the weather in another...seems to me all that energy
unleashed (for better or worse or otherwise) by the bombs has to be
connected to the 200mph tornados that hit Oklahoma...one newsman said "it
looks like its been bombed"...

Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 8 May 1999 04:43:25 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      LIVING SYSTEMS: Interview with Fritjof Capra
Comments: To: smartnettalk@lists.groupsense.co.nz
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http://newdimensions.org/html/audio.html


At the moment there is a great interview here with Fritjof Capra

This will dissapear off the site soon... then the tape can be purchased.

~quote~

LIVING SYSTEMS: A new scientific understanding of life at all levels of
living systems is currently evolving. At its heart is the awareness that
everything is interconnected and interrelated. Out of this awareness comes
the greatest challenge of our times--creating sustainable communities.
"Success and survival in the 21st century will depend on ecological
awareness and on new ideas of how to change our technology and ways of doing
business. Our children need to learn values, ideas, knowledge and
wisdom--not just how to use computers to access more and more information."

~end quote~

> not just how to use computers to access more and more information.

No, use them to tune into the Gaia.  :)


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 May 1999 13:32:39 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      War
In-Reply-To:  <3734bf49.229818539@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All in Psyber-L,

Grappling with war is too difficult for me.  I find I can't think of the
psyche in cyberspace without linking it right through to the bombing in
Yugoslavia.  Then i don't want to post here, write here, be here (but if you
are reading I sent this anyway!)  I fear being a demagog, taking a line,
abhor making a stand, on the other hand abhor not to.  Yet i have a stand ~
what do i do with it?  The internal conflicts of Yugoslavia are bad news,
the response by Nato makes bad news worse.  The Nato motivation is
questionable and I utterly mistrust it.  The bombing strategy, whatever the
motivation, is useless at stopping the internal conflict, the results are
barbarous, with civilian deaths and destruction, even if it were military
deaths it would only be an extension of the evil they are supposedly
against. Worse for me because I identify with the West in this way, even
though NZ is not in Nato it is all tied in, historically, culturally ~
somehow *we* are doing this. Dreadful. I think it is an expression of an
aspect of culture, a rape culture, and we are blind to that abuse, as we are
to most rape.

I keep thinking of Giegerich and his notion that we can see the collective
psyche at work in global events and tendencies, not just in those things we
think of as "soulful". There is shadow in the soul and the darkest of all is
rape.  I call it rape culture, because i don't think it is *male* or
patriarchal or masculine that is the essence of the abhorrent phenomena but
the violation, desecration, forceful entry.  I can't see beyond the rape
metaphor... and see through the others... saviour, hero etc.

That there is a pattern repeating here comes through in this article by
George Lakoff, from which i quote the conclusion, worth reading from the
start

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Texts/Scholarly/Lakoff_Gulf_Metaphor_1.html

~quote~

Reality exists. So does the unconscious system of metaphors that we use
without awareness to comprehend reality. What metaphor does is limit what we
notice, highlight what we do see, and provide part of the inferential
structure that we reason with. Because of the pervasiveness of metaphor in
thought, we cannot always stick to discussions of reality in purely literal
terms.

There is no way to avoid metaphorical thought, especially in complex matters
like foreign policy. I am therefore not objecting to the use of metaphor in
itself in foreign policy discourse. My objections are, first, to the
ignorance of the presence of metaphor in foreign policy deliberations,
second, to the failure to look systematically at what our metaphors hide,
and third, to the failure to think imaginatively about what new metaphors
might be more benign.

It is in the service of reality that we must pay more attention to the
mechanisms of metaphorical thought, especially because such mechanisms are
necessarily used in foreign policy deliberations, and because, as we are
witnessing, metaphors backed up by bombs can kill.

~end quote~


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 May 1999 11:46:59 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: War
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>All in Psyber-L,
>
>Grappling with war is too difficult for me.  I find I can't think of the
>psyche in cyberspace without linking it right through to the bombing in
>Yugoslavia.  Then i don't want to post here, write here, be here (but if you
>are reading I sent this anyway!)  I fear being a demagog, taking a line,
>abhor making a stand, on the other hand abhor not to.  Yet i have a stand ~
>what do i do with it?
First, Walter, I think it is very useful for you to post here...from my
perspective we have created relationship here so it doesn't feel like
demagogary to me, but a scream from the heart.

> The internal conflicts of Yugoslavia are bad news,
>the response by Nato makes bad news worse.  The Nato motivation is
>questionable and I utterly mistrust it.  The bombing strategy, whatever the
>motivation, is useless at stopping the internal conflict, the results are
>barbarous, with civilian deaths and destruction, even if it were military
>deaths it would only be an extension of the evil they are supposedly
>against. Worse for me because I identify with the West in this way, even
>though NZ is not in Nato it is all tied in, historically, culturally ~
>somehow *we* are doing this. Dreadful. I think it is an expression of an
>aspect of culture, a rape culture, and we are blind to that abuse, as we are
>to most rape.
>
I find a parallel which I am equally passionate about as we in the US
debate the impact of the entertainment business on our cultural psyche...my
passion explodes when I look and see that it is men for the most part who
make the video games which have gratuitous violence, that agression comes
from someplace and for the most part is expressed by the men of our US
culture...those aspects of territory and waging war to increase power...I
am not discounting that somewhere in me as a female there is shadow and
history has women who have warred, but for the greatest part it is men and
that is my prejudice...I raised a boy and watched his tendancy to agression
but I put him in Montessori from babyhood and in that setting there were
values of personal boundaries, respect for others, non competitiveness and
love...so as you are feeling your frustration and anger I am finding I am
feeling mine...

In the Congressional hearing on violence there is this blindness to the
impact our culture of violence has on everyone's psyche...maybe most
children don't go out and kill but certainly children have grown up and
have waged war...so the agression is sanctified and organized and thot to
be more rational...I've only heard one psychologist (male) speak to the
male's instinct for agression...

 >I keep thinking of Giegerich and his notion that we can see the collective
>psyche at work in global events and tendencies, not just in those things we
>think of as "soulful". There is shadow in the soul and the darkest of all is
>rape.  I call it rape culture, because i don't think it is *male* or
>patriarchal or masculine that is the essence of the abhorrent phenomena but
>the violation, desecration, forceful entry.  I can't see beyond the rape
>metaphor... and see through the others... saviour, hero etc.

And when I think of rape as a female I think of it being carried out by the
males...as a female I cannot perform physical forceful
entry...unfortunately for me until there is an acknowledgement by males of
how agression plays out in our culture we are not getting to the impetus...

That said, it is not all males
>
>That there is a pattern repeating here comes through in this article by
>George Lakoff, from which i quote the conclusion, worth reading from the
>start
>
>http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Texts/Scholarly/Lakoff_
>Gulf_Metaphor_1.html
>
>~quote~
>
>Reality exists. So does the unconscious system of metaphors that we use
>without awareness to comprehend reality. What metaphor does is limit what we
>notice, highlight what we do see, and provide part of the inferential
>structure that we reason with. Because of the pervasiveness of metaphor in
>thought, we cannot always stick to discussions of reality in purely literal
>terms.
>
Certainly our language uses the war metaphor to apply to all sorts of
actions as Debrah Tannen has pointed out...

>There is no way to avoid metaphorical thought, especially in complex matters
>like foreign policy. I am therefore not objecting to the use of metaphor in
>itself in foreign policy discourse. My objections are, first, to the
>ignorance of the presence of metaphor in foreign policy deliberations,
>second, to the failure to look systematically at what our metaphors hide,
>and third, to the failure to think imaginatively about what new metaphors
>might be more benign.
>
Exactly,..and this is what those of us struggling with the (pardon the
expression) paradigm shift from the mechanistic to something are all
about...there are efforts afoot to unglorify war alaStephen Spielberg's
Private Ryan imbuing that glorification with *reality* of war...

>It is in the service of reality that we must pay more attention to the
>mechanisms of metaphorical thought, especially because such mechanisms are
>necessarily used in foreign policy deliberations, and because, as we are
>witnessing, metaphors backed up by bombs can kill.
>
>~end quote~
>
>Walter

I would add to my fairly incoherent response here that fear drives it all...
so much for my irrationality

Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 May 1999 13:17:27 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: War
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>what do i do with it?  The internal conflicts of Yugoslavia are bad news,
>the response by Nato makes bad news worse.  The Nato motivation
>questionable and I utterly mistrust it.  The bombing strategy,
"Humanitarian action"--it is the modern way to aquire turf...
of course these days it is much easier on the men getting killed since we
have decent medical facilities and potent weapons. not like running around
manually skewering or being skewered. booom you are vaporized[with nukes]

when we defeat these "evil warlords", who are attempting to accomplish what
we had done years ago, but came onto the scene too late, we will establish
business with yugo and exploit thier crushed economy to get peasant labor.
this will move americans into more white collar jobs abroad and in the
states. the yugos will also build a little financial power and become
consumers of our goods as well. the whole thing works out to less trauma for
more people in the future, believe it or not.

does he have "the whooole world in his hands" or not
here is an excerpt from my forthcoming book of 4d metafiction short
stories...
GOD AS AN ELEMENTAL

 God is a Force emanating from The Heart of Infinity to the exponent of
Infinity.  God exists because Infinity to the exponent of Infinity and ALL
IT'S implications exists.  It is a hard concept that is immutable and free
from belief or doubt. When someone causes miracles to happen it is not proof
of a state of closeness to the Ultimate Grace.  It merely shows that person
has been able to utilize the fact that thought creates a space in which the
Universe falls to a higher degree through mental disciplines.

 The coincidences that are manifesting in your life are a result of your
mental emanations transmitting into the Event at large.  As we have
discussed before there are many other mental transmitters pulling the fabric
of the Universe in different directions, so thoughts that are more powerful
dissipate the others of a lesser degree.  To wrap up the Whole Thing I'll
just say that the Power that occurs in any given Miracle is Impersonal.

 The ideals of Grace, however, as a General Rule of Thumb, have more Power
to last through the destructive tendencies of the Universe at Large.
Secorac Ji Teaches us to have a Personal Relationship with The Force that
our mind Touches as an easy way to crystallize thoughts, but, the Underlying
Force is as partial to one of IT'S parts as It is to the other.  Hence also,
Karma is not necessarily "cut and dried" for as was seen in this story the
people that were being exterminated then captured on those planets hadn't
yet done anything.

-------------------------------------------------------
i like to liken group karma to cardriving... sometimes if you are in the
heat of driving you may cut someone off or take anothers spot...
if you lead a country and forget to turn on your blinker you may have
accidentally bombed the chinese embassy...
if you are driving a country and you rush to get the parking spot before the
guy who has to walk an extra 500' you have crushed an Iraqi army.

anyone who has forgotten to put on thier blinker or cut someone off in
traffic has imbibed the spirit of the world situation at large;)
damn you all!=)
as above so below maties!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 May 1999 08:28:21 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Back Josh On
In-Reply-To:  <000601be9b08$fbf47c20$a104c7d8@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Josh wrote

  josh wants to join psyber-l
  Mon, 10 May 1999 17:55:43 +0100

> if that is ok!
>
> josh

Sure is, good to have you here again.  For those who may not be aware, Josh
is my son, who is living in London at the moment.

Since you were last here I think Psyber-l has changed two things in its
"cyber-soma"... the archives are now, *members only* and the joining, as you
can see is *via owner*, this minor adjustments have contributed to a major
change in how it feels here to me and also how it actually is!  Fewer people
are joining and leaving, and the group is at about 30. As new people come we
learn something about them.  There is more privacy in that non members can't
check you out in the archives.

I hope you say a few more things about you...


Love


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 May 1999 08:56:16 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      (fwd) [RRE]Professor Jenkins Goes to Washington
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Judith, all,

I thought this might be of interest... I like this writer's tone.

A few years ago I had a whirl in the local media as the expert on "Internet
Addiction" ... I took the line that *anything* could be abused and misused,
and that if someone had pain they could not face then escape into the Net
was preferable to some other forms of escape such as suicide or alcohol
abuse.  I could not get that across in the newspaper or on TV where they
would twist it so I said the opposite.  On unedited live Kim Hill (New
Zealanders will know the radio show) it came out rather well.  It seems that
popular media has a need to make the Internet a drug, a form of violence, or
a sex machine.  They seem so intent on headlining these demonic aspects that
intelligent discussion about how we can moderate the dark side, through such
things as talking to your children, is lost.


Walter


~~~


On Sun, 9 May 1999 14:29:43 -0700 (PDT), Phil Agre
<pagre@alpha.oac.ucla.edu>,  to <rre@lists.gseis.ucla.edu>, wrote:

[I have taken the liberty of reformatting this message.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
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Date: Sat, 8 May 99 13:19:28 EDT
From: Henry Jenkins <henry3@MIT.EDU>

Prof. Jenkins Goes to Washington

So many people have asked for the details that I've decided to write
out a personal narrative that can circulate where-ever anyone wishes.

This is the story of how a mild mannered MIT Professor ended up being
called before Congress to testify about "selling violence to our
children" and what it is like to testify.

Where to start?  For the past several months, ever since my book, FROM
BARBIE TO MORTAL KOMBAT: GENDER AND COMPUTER GAMES appeared, I've been
getting calls to talk about video game violence.  It isn't a central
focus of the book, really.  We were trying to start a conversation
about gender, about the opening up of the girls game market, about
the place of games in "boy culture," and so forth.  But all the
media wants to talk about is video game violence.  Here is one of the
most economically significant sectors of the entertainment industry
and here is the real beach head in our efforts to build new forms of
interactive storytelling as part of popular, rather than avant garde,
culture, but the media only wants to talk about violence.  These
stories always follow the same pattern.  I talk with an intelligent
reporter who gives every sign of getting what the issues are
all about.  Then, the story comes out and there's a long section
discussing one or another of a seemingly endless string of anti-
popular culture critics and then a few short comments by me rebutting
what they said.  A few times, I got more attention but not most.
But these calls came at one or two a week all fall and most of
spring term.  Then, when the Littleton shootings, they increased
dramatically.  Suddenly, we are finding ourselves in a national witch
hunt to determine which form of popular culture is to blame for the
mass murders and video games seemed like a better candidate than most.
So, I am getting calls back to back from the LA TIMES, THE NY TIMES,
The Christian Science Monitor, The Village Voice, Time, etc., etc.,
etc.  I am finding myself denounced in The Wall Street Journal op-ed
page for a fuzzy headed liberal who blames the violence on "social
problems" rather than media images.  And, then, the call came from
the U.S. Senate to see if I would be willing to fly to Washington with
just a few days notice to testify before the Senate Commerce Committee
hearings.  I asked a few basic questions, each of which feared me
with greater dread.  Turned out that the people testifying were all
anti-popular culture types, ranging from Joseph Lieberman to William
Bennett, or industry spokesmen.  I would be the only media scholar
who did not come from the "media effects" tradition and the only one
who was not representing popular culture as a "social problem".  My
first thought was that this was a total setup, that I had no chance
of being heard, that nobody would be sympathetic to what I had to say,
and gradually all of this came to my mind as reasons to do it and not
reasons to avoid speaking.  It felt important to speak out on these
issues.

A flashback: When I was in high school, I wore a trenchcoat (beige,
not black), hell, in elementary school I wore a black vampire cape
and a medallion around my neck to school.  I was picked on mercilessly
by the rednecks who went to my school and I spent a lot of time
nursing wounds, both emotional and some physical, from an essentially
homophonic environment.  I was also a sucker for Frank Capra movies --
Mr. Smith Goes to Washington most of all -- and films like 1776 which
dealt with people who took risks for what they believed.  I had an
amazing high school teacher, Betty Leslein, who taught us about our
government by bringing in government leaders for us to question (among
them Max Clevland, who was then a state legislature and now a member
of the Commerce Committee) and sent us out to government meetings to
observe.  I was the editor of the school paper and got into fights
over press censorship.  And I promised myself that when I was an
adult, I would do what I could to speak up about the problems of free
speech in our schools.  Suddenly, this was a chance.

I also had been reading Jon Katz' amazing coverage on the web of the
crackdown in schools across America on free speech and expression in
the wake of the shootings.  Goth kids harassed for wearing subcultural
symbols and pushed into therapy.  Kids suspended for writing the wrong
ideas in essays or raising them in class discussions.  Kids pushed off
line by their parents.  And I wanted to do something to help get the
word out that this was going on.

So, it didn't take me long to say yes.

I was running a major conference the next day and then I would
have one day to pull together my written testimony for the Senate.
I didn't have much in my own writings I could draw on.  I pulled
together what I had.  I scanned the web.  I sent out a call for some
goth friends to tell me what they felt I should say to Congress about
their community and a number of them stayed up late into the night
sending me information.  And I pulled an all nighter to write the damn
thing which was really long because I didn't have time to write short.
And then, I worked with my assistant, Shari Goldin, to get it proofed,
edited, revised, and sent off to Congress.  And to make arrangements
for a last minute trip.

When I got there, the situation was ever worse than I had imagined.
The Senate chamber was decorated with massive posters of video game
ads for some of the most violent games on the market.  Many of the
ad slogans are hyperbolic -- and self-parodying -- but that nuance
was lost on the Senators who read them all deadly seriously and with
absolute literalness.  Most of the others testifying with professional
witnesses who had done this kind of thing many times before.  They had
their staff.  They had their props.  They had professionally edited
videos.  They had each other for moral support.  I had my wife and son
in the back of the room.  They are passing out press releases, setting
up interviews, being tracked down by the major media and no one is
talking to me.  I try to introduce myself to the other witnesses.
Grossman, the military psychologist who thinks video games are
training our kids to be killers, won't shake my hand when I wave it in
front of him.  I am trying to keep my distance from the media industry
types because I don't want to be perceived as an apologist for the
industry -- even though, given the way this was set up, they were
my closest allies in the room.  This is set up so you can either be
anti-popular culture or pro-industry and the thought that as citizens
we might have legitimate investments in the culture we consume was
beyond anyone's comprehension.

The hearings start and one by one the senators speak.  There was
almost no difference between Republicans and Democrats on this one.
They all feel they have to distance themselves from popular culture.
They all feel they have to make "reasonable" proposals that edge up
towards censorship but never quite cross the constitutional lines.
It is political suicide to come out against the dominant position in
the room.

One by one, they speak.  Hatch, Lieberman, Bennett, the Archbishop
from Littleton....  Bennett starts to show video clips which removed
from context seem especially horrific.  The fantasy sequence from
Basketball Diaries reduced to 20 seconds of Leo DiCaprio blasting away
kids.  The opening sequence from SCREAM reduced to its most visceral
elements.  Women in the audience are gasping in horror.  The senators
cover their faces with mock dread.  Bennett start going on and on
about "surely we can agree upon some meaningful distinctions here,
between CASINO and SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, between THE BASKETBALL DIARIES
and CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER...".  I am just astonished by the sheer
absurdity of this claim which breaks down to a pure ideological
distinction which has neither aesthetic credibility nor any
relationship to the media effects debate.  Basketball Diaries is an
important film; CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER is a right wing potboiler!
Scorsese is bad but Spielberg is good?

Meanwhile, the senators are making homophobic jokes about whether
Marilyn Manson is "a he or a she" that I thought went out in the
1960s.  These strike me as precisely the kind of intolerant and
taunting comments that these kids must have gotten in school because
they dressed differently or acted oddly in comparison with their more
conformist classmates.

By this point, we reach the hour when the reporters have to call in
their stories if they are going to make the afternoon addition and so
they are heading for the door.  It's down to the C-Span camerawoman
and a few reporters from the game industry trade press.

And then I am called to the witness stand.  Now, the chair is
something nobody talks about.  It is a really really low chair and
it is really puffy so you sit on it and your butt just keeps sinking
and suddenly the tabletop is up to your chest.  It's like the chairs
they make parents sit in when they go to talk to elementary school
teachers.  The Senators on the other hand sit on risers peering down
at you from above.  And the whole power dynamics is terrifying.

Grossman starts to attack me personally, claiming that a "journalism"
professor and a "film critic" have no knowledge of social problems.
It takes me a while for the attacks to sink in because they are so far
off the mark.  I am not a journalism prof. and I am not a film critic.
I am a media scholar who has spent more than 15 years studying and
writing about popular culture and I do think I have some expertise
at this point on how culture works, how media is consumed, how
media panics are started, how symbols relate to real world events,
how violence operates in stories, etc., etc. and that's what I was
speaking about.

I am doing OK with all of this.  I am surprisingly calm while the
other people speak, and then Sen. Brownback calls my name, and utter
terror rushes through my body.  I have never felt such fear.  I try
to speak and can hardly get the words out.  My throat is dry.  I reach
for a glass of water and my hands are trembling so hard that I spill
water all over the nice table.  I am trying to read and the words
are fuzzing out on the page.  Most of them are handwritten anyway by
this point because I kept revising and editing until the last minute.
And I suddenly can't read my writing.  Cold sweet is pouring over
me.  I have visions of the cowardly lion running down the halls in OZ
escaping the great blazing head of the wizard.  But there's no turning
back and so I speak and gradually my words gain force and I find my
voice and I debating the congress about what they are trying to do
to our culture.  I take on Bennett about his distorted use of the
BASKETBALL DIARIES clip, explaining that he didn't mention this was
a film about a poet, someone who struggles between dark urges and
creativity, and that the scene was a fantasy intended to express
the rage felt by many students in our schools and not something the
character does let alone something the film advocates.  I talked about
the ways these hearing grew out of the fear adults have of their own
children and especially their fear of digital media and technological
change.  I talked about the fact that youth culture was becoming more
visible but it's core themes and values had remained pretty constant.
I talked about how reductive the media effects paradigm is as a way of
understanding consumers relations to popular culture.  I attacked some
of the extreme rhetoric being leveled against the goths, especially
a line in TIME from a GOP hack that we needed "goth control" not "gun
control".  I talked about the stuff that Jon Katz had been reporting
about the crackdown on youth culture in schools across the country and
I ended with an ad-libed line, "listen to your children, don't fear
them".  Then, waited.

The Senator decided to take me on about the goths, having had some
staff person find him a surprisingly banal line from an ad for a
goth nightclub which urged people to "explore the dark side".  And
I explained what I knew about goths, their roots in romanticism
and in the aesthetic movement, their nonviolence, their commitment
to acceptance,their strong sense of community, their expression of
alienation.  I talked about how symbols could be used to express many
things and that we needed to understand what these symbols meant to
these kids.  I spoke about Gilbert and Sullivan's PATIENCE as a work
that spoke to the current debate, because it spoofed the original
goths, the Aesthetics, for their black garb, their mournful posturing,
and said that they were actually healthy and well adjusted folks
underneath but they were enjoying playing dark and soulful.  The
Senator tried repeating his question as if he couldn't believe I
wasn't shocked by the very concept of giving yourself over to the
"dark side".  And then he gave up and shuffled me off the stand.

The press warmed around the anti-violence speakers but didn't seem
to want to talk to me.  I just wanted to get out of there.  I felt no
one had heard what I had to say and that I had been a poor messenger
because I had stumbled over my words.  But several people stopped
me in the hallway to thank me.  And dozens more have sent me e-mail
since having seen it on C-Span or heard it on the radio or seen the
transcript on the web or heard about it from friends.  And suddenly
I feel better and better about what had happened.  I had spoken out
about something that mattered to me in the halls of national power and
people out there had heard my message, not all of them certainly, but
enough.

I know the fight isn't over -- at least I hope it isn't.  There will
be more chances to speak, but I felt like I had scored some victory
just by being there and speaking.  Someone wrote me that it was all
the more powerful to have one rational voice amid a totally lopsided
panel of extremists.  People would see this was a witch hunt of sorts.
I'd like to believe that.

THe key thing was I got a statement into the record that was able to
say more than I could in five minutes and people can read it on the
web at: http://www.senate.gov/~commerce/hearings/0504jen.pdf

What follows is the text of my oral remarks which are rather different
from the written statement because I was still doing research and
writing on the airplane.

I am Henry Jenkins, Director of the MIT Comparative Media Studies
Program.  I have published six books and more than fifty essays
on various aspects of popular culture.  My most recent books, THE
CHILDREN'S CULTURE READER and FROM BARBIE TO MORTAL KOMBAT: GENDER
AND COMPUTER GAMES deal centrally with the questions before this
committee.  I am also the father of a high school senior and the
house master of a MIT dormitory housing 150 students.  I spent my
life talking with kids about their culture and I have come here today
to share with you some of what I have learned.

The massacre at Littleton, Colorado has provoked national soul
searching.  We all want answers.  But we are only going to find valid
answers if we ask the right Questions.  The key issue isn't what the
media are doing to our children but rather what our children are doing
with the media.  The vocabulary of "media effects", which has long
dominated such hearings, has been challenged by numerous American nd
international scholars as an inadequate and simplistic representation
of media consumption and popular culture.  Media effects research most
often empties media images of their meanings, strips them of their
contexts, and denies their consumers any agency over their use.

William Bennett just asked us if we can make meaningful distinctions
between different kinds of violent entertainment.  Well, I think
meaningful distinctions require us to look at images in context,
not looking at 20 second clips in isolation.  From what Bennett just
showed you, you would have no idea that THE BASKETBALL DIARIES was
a film about a poet, that it was an autobiographical work about a
man who had struggled between dark urges and creative desires, that
the book on which it was based was taught in high school literature
classes, and that the scene we saw was a fantasy which expressed his
frustrations about the school, not something he acts upon and not
something the film endorses.

Far from being victims of video games, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold
had a complex relationship to many forms of popular culture.  They
consumed music, films, comics, videogames, television programs.  All
of us move nomadically across the media landscape, cobbling together
a personal mythology of symbols and stories taken from many different
places.  We invest those appropriated materials with various personal
and subcultural meanings.  Harris and Klebold were darn toward dark
and brutal images which they invested with their personal demons,
their antisocial impulses, their maladjustment, their desires to hurt
those who had hurt them.

Shortly after I learned about the shootings, I received e-mail for
a 16 year old girl who shared with me her web site.  She had produced
an enormous array of poems and short stories drawing on characters
from popular culture and had gotten many other kids nationwide to
contribute.  Though they were written for no class, these stories
would have brightened the spirit of writing teachers.  She had reached
into contemporary youth culture, including many of the same media
products that have been cited in the Littleton case, and found there
images that emphasized the power of friendship, the importance of
community, the wonder of first romance.  The mass media didn't make
Harris and Klebold violent and destructive and it didn't make thi girl
creative and sociable but it provided them both with the raw materials
necessary to construct their fantasies.

Of course, we should be concerned about the content of our culture
and we all learn thing from the mass media.  But popular culture
is only one influence on our children's imaginations.  Real life
trumps media images every time.  We can shut down a video game if
it is ugly, hurtful, or displeasing.  But many teens are required
to return day after day to schools where they are ridiculed and
taunted and sometimes physically abused by their classmates.  School
administrators are slow to respond to their distress and typically can
offer few strategies for making the abuse stop.  As one Littleton teen
explained, "Everytime someone slammed them against a locker or threw a
bottle at them, they would go back to Eric and Dylan's house and plot
a little more".

We need to engage in a rational conversation about the nature of
the culture children consume but not in the current climate of moral
panic.  I believe this moral panic is pumped up by three factors.

1) Our fears of adolescents.  Popular culture has become one of the
central battlegrounds through which teens stake out a claim on their
own autonomy from their parents.  Adolescent symbols from zoot suits
to goth amulets define the boundaries between generations.  The
intentionally cryptic nature of these symbols often means adults
invest them with all of our worst fears, including our fear that our
children are breaking away from us.  But that doesn't mean that these
symbols carry all of these same meanings for our children.  However
spooky looking they may seem to some adults, goths aren't monsters.
They are a peaceful subculture committed to tolerance of diversity and
providing a sheltering community for others who have been hurt.  It
is, however, monstrously inappropriate when GOP strategist Mike Murphy
advocates "goth control" not "gun control."

2) Adult fears of new technologies.  The Washington Post reported
that 82 percent of Americans cite the Internet as a potential
cause for the shootings.  The Internet is no more to blame for the
Colombine shootings than the telephone is to blame for the Lindbergh
kidnappings.  Such statistics suggest adult anxiety about the current
rate of technological change.  Many adults see computers as necessary
tools for educational and professional development.  But many
also perceive their children's on-line time as socially isolating.
However, for many "outcasts," the on-line world offers an alternative
support network, helping them find someone out there somewhere who
doesn't think they are a geek.

3) The increased visibility of youth culture.  Children fourteen and
under now constitute roughly 30 percent of the American population,
a demographic group larger than the baby boom itself.  Adults are
feeling more and more estranged from the dominant forms of popular
culture, which now reflects their children's values rather than
their own.  Despite our unfamiliarity with this new technology,
the fantasies shaping contemporary video games are not profoundly
different from those which shaped backyard play a generation ago.
Boys have always enjoyed blood and thunder entertainment, always
enjoyed risk-taking and rough housing, but these activities often
took place in vacant lots or backyards, out of adult view.  In a world
where children have diminished access to play space, American mothers
are now confronting directly the messy business of turning boys into
men in our culture and they are alarmed at what they are seeing but
the fact that they are seeing it at all means that we can talk about
it and shape it in a way that was impossible when it was hidden from
view.

We are afraid of our children.  We are afraid of their reactions to
digital media.  And we suddenly can't avoid either.  Thee factors may
shape the policies that emerge from this committee but if they do,
they will lead us down the wrong path.  Banning black trenchcoats or
abolishing violent video games doesn't get us anywhere.  These are the
symbols of youth alienation and rage -- not the causes.

Journalist Jon Katz has described a backlash against popular culture
in our high schools.  Schools are shutting down student net access.
Parents are cutting their children off from on-line friends.  Students
are being suspended for displaying cultural symbols or expressing
controversial views.  Katz chillingly documents the consequences
of adult ignorance and fear of our children's culture.  Rather than
teaching children to be more tolerant, high school teachers and
administrators are teaching students that difference is dangerous,
that individuality should be punished, and that self expression should
be constrained.  In this polarized climate, it becomes IMPOSSIBLE
for young people to explain to us what their popular culture means to
them.  We re pushing this culture further and further underground and
thus further and further from our understanding.

I urge this committee to listen to youth voices about this controversy
and have submitted a selection of responses from young people as part
of my extended testimony.

Listen to our children.  Don't fear them.
Henry Jenkins


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 15 May 1999 10:18:04 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: (fwd) [RRE]Professor Jenkins Goes to Washington
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks, Walter
I observed the C-Span hearings, including the reality that only 2 Senator's
(males) were in attendance...he was a voice in the wilderness of fear

It once again says to me that gender is again at the core of this...as a
mother of a son it was stunning to me to see how Jon's agressiveness played
out as he got older...I was well aware of my response as a female of
revulsion to the violence in movies...Jon and Ihave had a number of
conversations about this...this need to legislate the core agressiveness of
the male reminds me of the years before birth control when the female was
in change of controling the boy's sexuality...

Jenkins alluded to this only slightly in his talk and no one wants to go
there it seems...

We see agression play out in the business model...preditory
companies...battling for marketshare, and people get hurt by this model,
but a friend of mine recenltly said "then you shouldn't get in the
game"...so capitalism is an accepted form thru which male agression can be
channeled, but no one is making the connection to the business model and
how it plays out thru the media...the corporations are about making mondy
and we keep looking at the seeming results and draw simple conclusions...

I'd love to listen to a group of men talk about agression in themselves...

There are times when I grow weary of trying to hold up my female end of
things...

Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 15 May 1999 11:39:00 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: (fwd) [RRE]Professor Jenkins Goes to Washington
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

N: Hi Judith, Walter and all,

Judith Buerkel wrote:
.I was well aware of my response as a female of
> revulsion to the violence in movies...Jon and Ihave had a number of
> conversations about this...this need to legislate the core agressiveness of
> the male reminds me of the years before birth control when the female was
> in change of controling the boy's sexuality...

N: I guess you are referring to earlier times when wives were 'put
aside' for not producing male heirs?  That is when it was believed
that it was somehow the woman controlled the sex of a child?  Guess
this inacuracty disappeared when they discovered that the sex of
the fetus was control by the chromasomes of the sperm which happened
to reach the egg first?  Right?
>
  I guess we'll never be which sex is the more capable of aggression
until we see some cultures where woman hold most of the power.  But
then if women are really the less aggressive, perhaps there will
never be enough with the drive to take over the power position.

  Best to all,  Nancy

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 May 1999 10:15:48 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: (fwd) [RRE]Professor Jenkins Goes to Washington
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>N: Hi Judith, Walter and all,
>
>Judith Buerkel wrote:
>.I was well aware of my response as a female of
>> revulsion to the violence in movies...Jon and Ihave had a number of
>> conversations about this...this need to legislate the core agressiveness of
>> the male reminds me of the years before birth control when the female was
>> in change of controling the boy's sexuality...
>
>N: I guess you are referring to earlier times when wives were 'put
>aside' for not producing male heirs?  That is when it was believed
>that it was somehow the woman controlled the sex of a child?  Guess
>this inacuracty disappeared when they discovered that the sex of
>the fetus was control by the chromasomes of the sperm which happened
>to reach the egg first?  Right?
J:I was'nt thinking that long ago...the good girl, bad girl thing...and the
back seat of a Ford
>>
>  I guess we'll never be which sex is the more capable of aggression
>until we see some cultures where woman hold most of the power.  But
>then if women are really the less aggressive, perhaps there will
>never be enough with the drive to take over the power position.
J:I think this is a way to slid off the issue of *what is*...I don't know
if I can be more agressive and I'm not interesting in that answer...what I
am insterested in is the males acknowledging what they have created here in
the US...if they will see how this is agression is played out...sometimes
in seemingly benign ways...we aren't asking the correct questions and when
someone like the professor attempts to get people to ask the teens about
their culture he is steamrolled over and marginalized because among other
reasons it sounds like theory against concrete action and Congress can't
legislate theory...the irony of all of this is that the disfunctionally
brought up are now trying to understand what's going on and the idea of
looking to the young people for guidance is not on their radar screen
because adult males are the holders of the answers and cann't conceive that
someone younger *knows* something of value...how many times my son lamented
to me "he (his father) won't listen to me"...the children have wisdome to
impart if we have the courage to ask...but I suspect we won't like the
answers

Interesting that during the immediacy of the aftermath of Littleton, CNN
and FOX both had professors from Harvard and somewhere else who had written
books about boys...the interviewers didn't know the questions to ask so
these men quickly fadded from the screen...

Judith trying to tap into her aggressiveness and heal
>
>  Best to all,  Nancy
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 May 1999 10:27:12 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: (fwd) [RRE]Professor Jenkins Goes to Washington
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> >Judith Buerkel wrote:

.what I
> am insterested in is the males acknowledging what they have created here in
> the US...if they will see how this is agression is played out...sometimes
> in seemingly benign ways...we aren't asking the correct questions and when
> someone like the professor attempts to get people to ask the teens about
> their culture he is steamrolled over and marginalized because among other
> reasons it sounds like theory against concrete action and Congress can't
> legislate theory...the irony of all of this is that the disfunctionally
> brought up are now trying to understand what's going on and the idea of
> looking to the young people for guidance is not on their radar screen
> because adult males are the holders of the answers and cann't conceive that
> someone younger *knows* something of value...how many times my son lamented
> to me "he (his father) won't listen to me"...the children have wisdome to
> impart if we have the courage to ask...but I suspect we won't like the
> answers

N: I think I do understand what you mean here (maybe)  My son and
his fiancee and her son just left.  The son is on ridelin (sp?)  I
seems to me he gets hyperactive when noone will listen to him, but
as long as everything is going his way he's fine.

>
> Interesting that during the immediacy of the aftermath of Littleton, CNN
> and FOX both had professors from Harvard and somewhere else who had written
> books about boys...the interviewers didn't know the questions to ask so
> these men quickly fadded from the screen...

N: But then how are we, as a society, ever to get better?  It will
always be the disfunctional raised (that is, raised in what is then
the 'old way'  With the same 'blind spot' as their parents) asking the
questions.
>
> Judith trying to tap into her aggressiveness and heal

Best wishes, Nancy
>_______________________________________________________
> >Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> >here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 May 1999 10:51:01 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: (fwd) [RRE]Professor Jenkins Goes to Washington
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,
Just a quick thot...not much energy to spare these days...pretty much
confined to my bed with people coming in and taking care of me

snip
>> Interesting that during the immediacy of the aftermath of Littleton, CNN
>> and FOX both had professors from Harvard and somewhere else who had written
>> books about boys...the interviewers didn't know the questions to ask so
>> these men quickly fadded from the screen...
>
>N: But then how are we, as a society, ever to get better?  It will
>always be the disfunctional raised (that is, raised in what is then
>the 'old way'  With the same 'blind spot' as their parents) asking the
>questions.

The children have the answer...and will wait until their time comes...I
remember how stunning it was to raise my son...he knew so much more than I
did...deep wisdom...I knew how to teach him to tie his shoes and feed him
and get him to Toronto...what I did was to continuously focus on evoking
that which was seeking to manifest...I find it very amusing that he has
made career decisions based on his knowing and basically ignored the
pressure from his father and his fiance to get a college degree, taking a
job which they both lobbied against...now 6 months and an increase in
salary of$18,000 working for a class company, he is happy and more
opportunities are opening for him...the one absolute I taught him was that
he knew the correct answer for him and tho he could listen to others in the
end it was he who knew...this goes against the authoritarian perspect,
which says *father knows best*...we are stuck in the belief of the blank
slate...which assumes a baby knows nothing and has to be taught
everything...but we all know we *knew* things when we were young...society
punished me fairly severly until I learned to hide what I knew....40 years
later that knowing is sprouting all over as we change our view from the
superordinate of the mechanistic and subsume it within the organic...
>>

Blessings,
Judith

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 May 1999 15:16:33 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: (fwd) [RRE]Professor Jenkins Goes to Washington
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Judith,
   From what you write it saounds as if your healing is not progressing
as well as we had all wished.  I hope I am wrong about
this.

Judith Buerkel wrote:

> The children have the answer...and will wait until their time comes...I
> remember how stunning it was to raise my son...he knew so much more than I
> did...deep wisdom...

N: I hope, too, for the future, that there will be enough like you
and your son, who will know to listen to their inner wisdom.  People
who will seek spirit and soul instead of power over others.

  Love, Nancy

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 May 1999 00:13:31 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Back Charles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

Charles wrote to me:

> Walter:
>
> I think I can handle being subbed again, tho I may need to go nomail at
> some point and to read the list on the web.

I am pleased you are on this list again Charles.

For those who were not here at the time...

Charles has been a long standing member of Psyber-L and conducted an
introductory Hipbone Glass Bead Game on the list three or so years ago.
Following that, together, we planned and conducted the Dream Event where we
used the form of the GBG to explore dreams.

I thought it went remarkably well. The form is a way of attending to psyche
that is suited to the medium and builds on all the earlier forms such as
therapy and journal writing.  Sixteen of us dreamt together and interlinked
dreams on a Waterbird Board.  Even in face to face work, linking is the
principle things we do to attend to the psyche; current dilemmas to
childhood traumas to archetypal structures to theoretical constructs to the
here and now constellation of transference and counter transference.  Using
a board with links in hypertext medium is a turning point in working with
the psyche.

I want to say more on all that, but I am welcoming Charles...

I think of Charles as a poet, and that his love of the net and skills and
inventiveness on the Internet stem from there.

Charles has been working for the Arlington Institute as information and
media person (right?) The institute works on preparation for Y2K and has a
sane approach - don't panic but don't go into denial either - use the
opportunity for community and collaboration.  (Do I have that right?)  This
has involved heaps of work and a shift of home and disruption to family.
Life must be settling down Charles if you are looking this way again!

~~~

Charles I will leave you to set the nomail options...


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 02:32:07 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Judith
In-Reply-To:  <3749404c.3376876@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

I have had a request to set Judith's account to nomail, which I have done.
This is related to the sad news that Judith is in hospital.  Stephen may be
able to say more.

Judith, if you are reading this on the Web, which nomail allows you to do,
all the best with your health and the process you are going through.

Many warm wishes,

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 02:54:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

All,

I just checked the list with a review command and thought what a great bunch
of people we have here.  There are very few who have not posted and most
have been fully present here at one time or another.  Of course being on the
list tells us some things and not others.  One thing about this list is that
people drop off it unless they either post or respond to the confirm
membership request which comes every 4 months, so that means all have taken
steps to be here.

I am posting this as Psyber-L is on my mind... and I reflect on the psyche,
how it manifests in cyberspace....


Walter




C21Teri@AOL.COM                 No Name Available
CMCPsych@AOL.COM                Sheryl Garner
Conboitano@AOL.COM              Connie Boitano
hoon@APK.NET                    Stephen Calhoun
judithb@APK.NET                 Judith Buerkel
damian@CENTROIN.COM.BR          Maddi Damian
paulingb@CLEAR.NET.NZ           Brian Pauling
gfrancil@CLUB-INTERNET.FR       Grard Francillon
cfolt@COINET.COM                Cheryl Foltos
bbc@CYBERNET.DK                 Bent Bgedal Christoffersen
lking@DIRECT.CA                 Lorraine King
hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET           Charles Cameron
dan@GROUPSENSE.CO.NZ            Dan Randow
amcgee@IGC.ORG                  Art McGee
jdimmick@IX.NETCOM.COM          Jim Dimmick
miles@MAIL.COM                  Miles Thompson
anitak@MEGABAUD.FI              Anita Konkka
nsmith@NEGIA.NET                Nancy Smith
jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET        Janell Adair
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ          Walter Logeman
moonasylum@QED.NET              Marie Tondreau
simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM             Simon G. Trask
aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA           Robert Longpre
nori@SOUTHEAST.NET              Wayne Richardson
dwatkins@SWLINK.NET             Dan Watkins
dave@THE-FREAK-SHOW.DEMON.CO.UK David Postlethwaite
rcarls2@UMBC.EDU                Rob Carlson
sswan@USD.EDU                   Susan Swan
lsaba_phd@YAHOO.COM             Lynne Saba
taraindreams@YAHOO.COM          Renata Verschraegen
josh@ZESTY.COM                  Josh On
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 May 1999 21:22:23 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <3758543c.12485744@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Walter,

I am here.  I am saddened by the previous message just sent by you about
Judith.  If I have any form of prayer that may touch her then it is being
said/lived/believed at this moment.  I hope that Stephen writes soon to
tell us more.

About me, I have been VERY quiet on the JUNG-L list as of late (as some of
you already know since there is some cross-over between the two lists).  I
have recently obtained a new job for the following school year as a
principal of a French Immersion School (I get to teach computers and
psychology in French.  I have been busy with becoming familiar with aspects
of the job in preparation for the year to come which has left me little
time for being present in cyberspace ... yet this place never leaves my
thoughts.

listening quietly,
Robert Longpr=E9

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 03:37:55 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Psyche
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear All,

Some thoughts on psyche and cyberspace, emerging out of discussions I have
recently had offlist with friends:

Psyche however we envisage it, does well to be made manifest in some way.
Art, poetry, drama, music are ways she manifests... perhaps the whole world
manifests her in some way, but then we still need to be alerted to that...
as Wordsworth does in Tintern Abbey 1798:

To look on nature, not as in the hour
Of thoughtless youth; but hearing oftentimes
The still, sad music of humanity,
Nor harsh nor grating, though of ample power
To chasten and subdue. And I have felt
A presence that disturbs me with the joy
Of elevated thoughts; a sense sublime
Of something far more deeply interfused,
Whose dwelling is the light of setting suns,
And the round ocean and the living air,
And the blue sky, and in the mind of man;
A motion and a spirit, that impels
All thinking things, all objects of all thought,
And rolls through all things.

Psychotherapy with its ritual hour, its traditions of intensity and depth,
its aura of the sacred while remaining secular, is a way of manifesting
psyche. The psychodrama group, and all group therapy lets us see the usually
invisible psyche, lets it be, helps it unfold.

The main form of representation of psyche is language and to use it is
psychological, every word has its etymology which brings depth to our
experience.  We can't say "depth" for example, but hear the echo of the
sea... think of the world in three dimensions. The power of the word is
evident when, early on, they called psychotherapy the Talking Cure. I
think the naming of roles is to make a small poem which manifests the soul
or psyche. Acting them out on the stage is another form of representation.

In out text based environment here in cyberspace the written language evokes
the usually hidden psyche, even in nooks of cyberspace where one least
expects it.  One reason is that by joining an online environment
(technically having access to certain files) we have a sense of belonging,
of being "in" a place, we can't avoid the  *vas hermeticum* -- a place where
psyche is present, even in silence. Journals, writing, poetry and naming
things (diagnosis) etc are all psychological and working with
them as "methods" and techniques in their own right can be expanded
deliberately to make some cyberspaces more deliberately psychological.  I am
sure pictures and music can easily be added as can video however for us now
I think *writing* is a great tool, *form* or medium for manifesting the
psyche.

Linking is the other thing that is native to the web and is psychological in
its own rights "I link therefore I am".  Moreno used the manifestation of
links, sociometry, represent the underlying web of interconnection that he
saw as psyche... psyche is not inside us, but the links we have with
entities, dead or alive, real or imagined. The word "religion" means
re-linking and noting that puts a whole new slant on hypertext.

Writing and linking can be developed on the internet.  Just as new forms
came about with the printing press so we are making them here -- this very
list is one such new form.  I think Hipbone Glass Bead Games take the very
things we do naturally in this medium and develops them a midge, and then
can take us to a new level of soul making here.

To sum up... the internet is a psychological medium, we are still learning
to use it.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 12:45:51 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Judith
In-Reply-To:  <375550b8.11585512@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter wrote:
>All,
>
>I have had a request to set Judith's account to nomail, which I have done.
>This is related to the sad news that Judith is in hospital.  Stephen may be
>able to say more.

Walter, all,

I am sorry to hear this. Judith has been in my thoughts, and will be so
even more now. Through the medium of this list I have felt, and now feel,
her presence in my heart. Stephen, I too hope you can say more on how she
is doing, in body and spirit.

my best wishes to all who are gathered yet spread far and wide on this list,

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 08:50:53 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Judith
In-Reply-To:  <375550b8.11585512@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Psyber folks,

I have a report concerning Judith. She was admitted to the hospital on the
19th to be treated for complications which arose due to the double burdens
of her illness and the inadequacy of the treatment regimen she was on.

I visited with her last Sunday and she was feeling much better. The major
development for her is that they have switched her medical teams and the
new lead doctor is insistent she remain in the hospital until the new team
has a substantial handle on what's causing her health problems and she's
really turned the corner.

After seven months of the roller coaster, she is now in a closely observed
situation in which she is being cared for around the clock. And, her new
team has taken a keen interest in her illness, that, incredibly, remains an
exceptional medical mystery.

If you'd like to correspond with her and wish her well, email me. ( She's
offline while in the hospital.) I'm sure she'd like to hear from her
friends, maybe get a post card showcasing your exotic far-flung burgs.
Obviously to focus a prayer on her behalf is highly recommended.

best to all,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 13:06:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Judith
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a01b375a04989d3@[207.54.181.19]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen

Thanks for your report, I am pleased to hear the positive news! I like the
idea of the postcards, and the prayers!  Can you give me an address Stephen?

Mystery illness fits for Judith I think... You (I hope Stephen passes on
snippets from us in the list) weave together opposites... things are not
what they seem... or rather... things are what they seem *and* not what they
seem! <grin> I hope your medical team have at least half your wisdom!

I have just been glancing through some of your posts to Psyber-L and they
would make great reading for someone looking for peace, healing and meaning.

Easy to find examples... Fri, 18 Sep 1998

JB>  I heard my mentor in my head saying as she always did "trust the
JB>  process" so my choice was to hold my own space and response
JB>  within my own integrity and to trust everyone here which btw has
JB>  increased enormously over the past few months for me...the trick
JB>  I've learned through the years of this is to take one step at a
JB>  time and to sense when an action will be the next action to take
JB>  to move through the process and not to get ahead of myself...to
JB>  hold loving kindness and to hold accountability my own included
JB>  which could be interpreted as an illogical pairing...


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 13:19:29 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19990528211252.00911b00@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Robert,

Congratulations, sounds *perfect* ... computers and psychology in French,
that is a job from heaven! How old are the students?  Will you be
introducing them to the depths of psyberspace?

Walter

> I
> have recently obtained a new job for the following school year as a
> principal of a French Immersion School (I get to teach computers and
> psychology in French.  I have been busy with becoming familiar with aspects
> of the job in preparation for the year to come which has left me little
> time for being present in cyberspace ... yet this place never leaves my
> thoughts.
>
> listening quietly,
> Robert Longpr


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 00:34:21 -0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         damian <damian@CENTROIN.COM.BR>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I am following the list with the eyes closed. There are a long time that i
dont read the list, just chequed to see the subjects. But i want to spent
more time reading all the messages. Here, in Brazil, the life is hard, I am
working around 40 hours per weekand doing a doctorat and a junguian
formation at the SBPA, filiated to IAAP , so...
I saw that there is a jung-l, how can subscribe?

Maddi

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 17:36:48 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Judith
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  I am so sorry to hear that Judith feels badly enough to go to the
hospital, but glad to hear from Stephen that she has a new medical team
that is
taking an active interest in her mystery malody and hope that they
may at last find a way to get her on the path to a real, durable
recovery.
  Nancy, feeling concerned
======

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> All,
>
> I have had a request to set Judith's account to nomail, which I have done.
> This is related to the sad news that Judith is in hospital.  Stephen may be
> able to say more.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 22:14:50 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <199905292103.SAA19010@trex.centroin.com.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Maddi,

> I am following the list with the eyes closed.

I love the turn of phrase... I read a lot of books like that, absorb them
while they remain on the shelf!

I'll see if I can beat Robert with the instructions for Jung-L:


~ quote ~
To unsubscribe from Jung-L, go to the ONElist web site, at
www.onelist.com, and select the User Center link from the menu bar
on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription
between digest and normal mode.
~ end quote ~

I presume you can subscribe that way too.  Is there an email way of doing
that Robert?

Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 15:43:18 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Who's Here
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter, all,
Glad to see the list whirling again. Sorry that the topic is something as
worrisome as Judith's hospitaliztion.

Stephen, I would be happy to send a card or write a note if you could let
me know where.

The most wonderful season is unfolding here. All the best to all of you.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 21:23:22 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore County
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <3758543c.12485744@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Seeing in this message how small the group is, I feel a bit guilty for
taking up a slot and saying so little.  I realize that's somewhat strange
since the tiny bit of e-mail traffic that lsoft.com doles out to me every
day is obviously insignificant.  I do watch carefully, just say very
little.

Rob

--
Rob Carlson, KC2AEI | rcarls2@umbc.edu | http://rob.carlson.org

On Sat, 29 May 1999, Walter Logeman wrote:

> I just checked the list with a review command and thought what a great bunch
> of people we have here.  There are very few who have not posted and most
> have been fully present here at one time or another.  Of course being on the
> list tells us some things and not others.  One thing about this list is that
> people drop off it unless they either post or respond to the confirm
> membership request which comes every 4 months, so that means all have taken
> steps to be here.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 02:08:04 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Seasons
In-Reply-To:  <37506D86.59A0@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl, all,

  Re: Who's Here
  Sat, 29 May 1999 15:43:18 -0700

You wrote:
> Glad to see the list whirling again. Sorry that the topic is something as
> worrisome as Judith's hospitaliztion.

Judith's health is worrisome.

> The most wonderful season is unfolding here. All the best to all of you.

Here we are what should be the ending of autumn (as we call it here)
but it is like summer.  No snow on the hills... I wish the winter
would come.

I am up at our holiday house (near a ski field), and Kate is off with
the horses this weekend, and I have taken time to *be* here in
Psyber-L a bit more (as well as in some other writing projects).
Seasons seem to come and go here too.  I am stretched in my work, very
full up with clients, but need to do it as I have had 2 quite low
periods in the last two years ~ it was quiet for most therapists at
those times, puzzling as to why ~ I think the first time was
associated with some bad press for "recovered memories" and so called
manipulation by counsellors etc.  But who would know?  Right now I am
turning people away.

There is another season i am aware of.  A friend told me that Saturn,
which governs structures has a 28 year cycle.  Without taking the
astrology too seriously, I must be right into my second one and
seeking a change in my work.  I do lots of wonderful sessions all day,
but this only increases a desire to teach what i do.  My attempts at
making that happen have not been successful yet.  The urge to do that
is strong, and being as busy as i am offers little opportunity to
explore options, or even to think about it much.

Still a new season will come... I'll just watch it happen I think
without too much pushing.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 02:14:11 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905292116190.32292-100000@media.umbc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rob

> Seeing in this message how small the group is, I feel a bit guilty for
> taking up a slot and saying so little.  I realize that's somewhat strange
> since the tiny bit of e-mail traffic that lsoft.com doles out to me every
> day is obviously insignificant.  I do watch carefully, just say very
> little.

I have a sense that you do.  What is the guilt about exactly?  Using
bandwidth?  I don't quite get it...

However that you say you are watching carefully is worth every bit of
the bandwidth IMO... it creates a sense of a group, with you in it!

To express the feeling... I find that interesting, if puzzling.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 00:31:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore County
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <37519dee.3096501@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I hate to be a non-contributing member of any sort of group.  Most of the
time when I join a mailing list I just stand by the sidelines and watch,
and it doesn't bother me at all.  I know that if something comes up that
nobody else can answer I'll jump in and do my part, but otherwise I can
just scan them daily for good ideas and inspiration like any other
resource.

There was something about your post, though, listing out the members and
the little blurb about the community of the list that struck something in
me.  Literally, this list is no different than any of the thousands out
there, and any that I'm subscribed to.  But by pointing out the one thing
we all have in common (the effort, if small, to remain subscribed), for a
brief moment this list distinguished itself from the others.

That's what motivated me to write that paragraph, as my small contribution
to the group.

Rob

--
Rob Carlson, KC2AEI | rcarls2@umbc.edu | http://rob.carlson.org

On Sun, 30 May 1999, Walter Logeman wrote:

> I have a sense that you do.  What is the guilt about exactly?  Using
> bandwidth?  I don't quite get it...
> However that you say you are watching carefully is worth every bit of
> the bandwidth IMO... it creates a sense of a group, with you in it!
> To express the feeling... I find that interesting, if puzzling.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 10:24:41 -0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         damian <damian@CENTROIN.COM.BR>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

----------
Walter, thanks for de Jung-L informations, i will try it. Someone knows if
the Thymoti Leary`s home page still existe?

Bye,
Maddi Damian

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 14:15:11 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <199905301344.KAA12709@trex.centroin.com.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Maddi

> Walter, thanks for de Jung-L informations, i will try it. Someone knows if
> the Thymoti Leary`s home page still existe?

Try:

http://www.leary.com

I had a first edition of Politics of Ecstasy that I have lent out - I'd
really like it back, even though it was quite preposterous really.  Such a
lovely idea, that LSD could change the world.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 May 1999 23:05:16 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Bent Bgedal Christoffersen <bbc@CYBERNET.DK>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
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damian skrev:

> the Thymoti Leary`s home page still existe?

Yes try this http://www.interverse.com/~leary/
>
> Bye,
> Maddi Damian
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 06:44:19 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Seasons
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Walter, all,

You mentioned that Saturn governs "structures". What kind of structures?
Buildings? Conceptual structures? The structure of our lives? I don't
know much about astrology - so much of what is put out seems like bunk
but sometimes it is puzzling and a bit of mystery that just might be a
huge mystery... our vision being so limited.

The old song...(and originally from the Bible???) 'to everything there is
a season" and also "you can't always get what you want...but if you
try..you just might get what you need."

A friend here told me the four seasons here are called, "Autumn, Winter,
Sprint, and Summer". Sprint is the season which is neither winter nor
spring and goes by so fast that summer is immediately upon us. Two and a
half weeks ago there were still snow flurries here and now for the past
three days it's been in the 80s - otherwise known as *summer*. So there
is no spring here really - just a variation on a theme, not something
conceptually definable as a "thing" with a "name". One condition flows
into another and without a doubt "everything" affects "everything".

Walter, perhaps I am not getting some posts but I think there are people
on the list who have not appeared on my computer screen in more than 4
months. Some of them have spoken in the last couple of days but ...just
wondering.

I have a friend visiting from San Franciso this weekend. It is the season
in my heart for friendship.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 15:40:54 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <37519dee.3096501@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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At 3:14 am +0100 30/05/1999, Walter Logeman wrote:
>Rob
>
>> Seeing in this message how small the group is, I feel a bit guilty for
>> taking up a slot and saying so little.  I realize that's somewhat strange
>> since the tiny bit of e-mail traffic that lsoft.com doles out to me every
>> day is obviously insignificant.  I do watch carefully, just say very
>> little.
>
>I have a sense that you do.  What is the guilt about exactly?  Using
>bandwidth?  I don't quite get it...
>
>However that you say you are watching carefully is worth every bit of
>the bandwidth IMO... it creates a sense of a group, with you in it!


Just wondering, in a silly rhetorical sort of of way, how much psychic
bandwidth it takes to be present here - also, who pays for it, and who
decides if it's too much or too little?? Who are the psychic bandwidth
police, and where do they hide out?!

I liked that you posted the list review, Walter, somehow it seemed timely.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 07:11:54 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Psychic Bandwith
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Simon,

I'm having a hard time imagining what this means. I don't think I know
enough about computers to understand the reference/metaphor.

Can you elucidate?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 15:05:36 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Seasons
In-Reply-To:  <375140B3.1EB9@coinet.com>
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Cheryl

> You mentioned that Saturn governs "structures". What kind of structures?
> Buildings? Conceptual structures? The structure of our lives? I don't
> know much about astrology - so much of what is put out seems like bunk
> but sometimes it is puzzling and a bit of mystery that just might be a
> huge mystery... our vision being so limited.

I am not an astrologer either... In the past i have read bits but always
thought of it as a sort of guide to the archetypes.  I but have a definite
notion of *structure* of things, all the things you mention, and their
symbolic value as well. I feel a bit lost without a definite "ideology"...
conceptual structures as you say.  I've been into Marxism, Moreno,
Hillman... right now they are all just in the past, and there is nothing in
their place.  That plus the restless feeling around work resonated with my
friend's casual comment about Saturn...

> Walter, perhaps I am not getting some posts but I think there are people
> on the list who have not appeared on my computer screen in more than 4
> months. Some of them have spoken in the last couple of days but ...just
> wondering.

Yes that is because when they don't post they get an automatic message
asking them if they really want to be here, and if so, to reply.  If they
don't reply, they drop off the list in 14 days. I think it is a great
scheme.  As Rob said it is a small list, but people are here with some
consciousness.

> I have a friend visiting from San Franciso this weekend. It is the season
> in my heart for friendship.

Sounds good!

By the way Judith has her computer and is now back on MAIL.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 11:24:06 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Judith
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all,

Anybody who has or will ask me back channel for Judith's contact
information, hold on. I'll be visiting her today and this figures into
finding out what her new location is at the enormous hospital.

My preference is to make further reports back channel. So if you'd like to
request to be kept up-to-date, please let me know.

I'll be printing out stuff to take to her later and I know she's
appreciative and will enjoy learning where P-L is at!

I thank you all too,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 11:19:33 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      wisdom, again
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter writes,
>things are what they seem *and* not what they
>seem! <grin> I hope your medical team have at least half your >wisdom!

all,

Sometimes the test is to see things for what they are.

Reading your kind post this morning, Walter, a lot bubbled up. Let's keep
at this idea of wisdom, for, as I'm sure you recall, it was Judith stating
how her son's innate wisdom plays out in his life that connects with the
"who you really are" thread.

***

What I hope for is that Judith's medical team gets the opportunity to tap
into their wisdom. Wisdom in my view is not ever a 'partial'. Where one is
wise and it may be appplied it is wholly present and implemented. - imo -

***

We don't need to discover why you feel I'm wise, Walter! Believe me when I
scan the traveled landscape of my life, *wise* isn't among the signs I see.

Wise ass, yes...

***

But isn't wisdom a key. . .and perhaps our travels across the landscapes of
our own life could be marked wise moment to wise moment.


regards,
Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 11:34:29 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      wisdom and the barest facts
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

all,

(Last riff of the day. Seasons-wise it's a gorgeous May day 75d, sunny,
light breeze...)

Judith and I have enjoyed this great fortune of our meeting and forging an
association based on our affinities and some groping toward a professional
partnership that allows our expression of who we really are and want to be
in our workplay life.

Alas, it's been a year on year off deal, for four years, due to the
fatefulness of life. Our concern, squareONE: experiential toolmakers, was
actually conceived to design learning tools which serve as an instructional
framework aimed at providing people with an opportunity to explore and
learn how their natural *wisdom* functions. We've had some truly
extraordinary encounters with wisdom! Then, interrupted by Judith's
battling. This may seem selfish but truly how she and I feel is that the
return to health and doing what we're meant to do is central.

***

Now she's an INFP and I'm an ENFP, although my F is very close to T. We're
both into lots of data, lots of connections, lots of playing around in
different framings, multiplicity, and other wild, undisciplined ways of
feeling about the cave.

However, the F, the feeling factor, is difficult for us both as it is with
many intuitive types. So there is a paradox that's central because it is a
line of resistance for us both. The paradox has to do with wisdom, or
knowing where one is at, and then, what to do.

The pointed question, and it can be directed at one's self or anybody, is:
'Where are you at?' The trap for me the intuitive is the elaboration which
escapes from the value of knowing where I'm at. For me, the elaboration is
valuable, yes, and it certainly is exciting, dynamic, rich, soulful, but it
easily departs from the more central, more germane, more valuable
recognition of where one is at.

Sometimes a mysterious illness is simply a mysterious illness, for example.
The elaboration might construe some grand narratve or some wide ranging
connections but then it is a short leap to what sometimes happens, that
illness is seen to be caused by some failure of individuation.

When this is believed to be true, not surprisingly, there seems to be an
accompanying inability to feel, think, judge, perceive where one is really
at. The failure is part of the elaboration, the 'big story' that gets in
the way of simply being where one is at, of knowing what one's state is.

Elaborations may tend to high-mindedness; they seem to being warming,
expansive, and they may take us up. Open ended, these kinds of grand
conceptions are always works-in-progress, and often are provisional,
disincarnate.

The paradox is that where one is at isn't discretely some objective state
unconnected from the elaboration. But, and this is my speculative aim here,
it's an act of wisdom to *first* know where one is surely at. This knowing
is primary, prime, even primal. Whereas the big story is apparently imbued
with a thrilling heroicism, about which we feel proud, the sense of
"at-ness" is often humbling, scary, right but somehow wrong too.

Elaboration, intuition, sometimes working to take us away from our keen
instincts, our instinctuality. There's little soulfulness possible if soul
is unconnected with the bare facts of where we truly are at.

With some 'zen' capability we might also know our at-ness to be neither
right or wrong;  *wise at-ness* transcends wrong and right to be just what
it is. In Islam, imagination is the most formidible 'djinn' or path of our
desire. Hope and hazard, there.

regards,

Stephen


ps. I've got a game in mind for us to engage, by-the-way...more later

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 11:30:25 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      wisdom again and again
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, you write about Judith,

>they
>would make great reading for someone looking for peace, healing and
>meaning.

Learning too; Judith is someone who is dedicated to learning and learning's
revelations, and, essentially, the experiential means through which one
discovers their own wisdom. I've been deeply changed in our ongoing
encounter. Interestingly, wisdom is not only the singular goal of her and
my work but also represents a key creative tension in this work.

Our work seeks to discover 'leverage points' in the learner's knowing. Out
of this leverage point a reformulation comes into life, is activated. We
describe this in terms of engagement of the process, recognition of the
play of old patterns and the instigation of novel patterns, and, then a
paring away of the inessential so that the essential perspective and its
wisdom come to the fore. Many similarities and sympathies with what Charles
is up to with GBG and the dramatic discovery of insight.

***

Oh yeah, the creative tension...since we two intuitives build intuitive
tools which implement data gathering and, (mentioned previously,)
'elaboration' or what we term simply 'making connections',  the trick of
the design is to then have a component of the process attend to the
revelation of wisdom.

It wasn't until Judith and I tossed between us the stuff of our different
framings, (yet amazingly resonant too) that I became aware of what she
intended to convey in speaking of the transition or transformation from one
"locus of focus" to another "locus of focus".

With respect to the revelation of wisdom, the distillation of a new locus
of focus is that more effective personal standpoint that is the point
beyond all the making of connections, beyond in alechemical terms, the
solutio.

At times it's a paradox because this new locus of focus may in actuality be
nothing more than the revealing of where one is really at! In some
instances this discovery requires a "dis-elaboration". a loosening and then
a losing of that 'build up' that has moved one away from where they are
at...the paradox of course being that one is already exactingly at where
one is at.

The key is: to know it. And sometimes the key is to know it *as if new*,
and, to know it as if new is to know it both newly and to know its newness
is resolute, essential, irrevocable. Again, paradoxically, newness, at-ness
that has always been there.

Judith is a great, even adept process person, but as intuitives we struggle
most with how to design in the 'burning away of the dross'. One aspect I'm
on to is the loosening part and so we're wondering about an element of
playfulness and creativity, randomness and chaos figured into the
loosening. The hard part is how to have this kind of process and not have
it become more fodder for further elaboration.

***

On the other hand, the direct route offers its own simple imperative: what
matters most? What do you notice first? Where are you at?

(Ask yourself or another person, "Where are you at?" and then explore what
is elaboration and what is not.)

I'm reminded the paradoxical doesn't need to be resolved, either. Sometimes
the truth of the moment just is infused with the mystery, the
irreconciliable, the inconsolable.

Wisdom may be *very accepting* at times.

best to all,

Stephen



.............................................................
squareONE: experiential toolmakers
 _o     \o_         __|    \ /     |__         o _   o/  \o/
__|-  __/    \__/o    \o    |    o/     o/__   /\   /|    |
   \    \    /  \     / \  /o\  / \     |   \  / |  / \  / \
E X C I T I N G - L E A R N I N G - T H R O U G H - P L A Y
web site: http://squareONE-learning.com
.............................................................

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 11:37:51 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Seasons
In-Reply-To:  <37524f7a.14517050@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,
>By the way Judith has her computer and is now back on MAIL.
>
>
>Walter


Appreciate the update. LOL! Saves me the printing!

hoo haaa,


Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 11:53:36 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Who is here. (Us chickens.)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  Hi All, I just tried the Timothy Leary link that Walter gave and got a
black page saying
"We are experiencing technical difficulties.  Expect to be back up
soon."
  Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

  Walter, Thanks for mentioning that NZ is just going into winter.  I
hadn't integrated that
concerning my niece who's family is moving there in July.  I think she
mentioned they'd be
living in Wellington.  That would be across a channel from your home in
Christchurch.  Is there a ferry or bridge?  Her mother tells me that she
will be looking for a dependable ISP
when they arrive.  Is on better than another?  She and I haven't had a
chance to correspond
so much lately because she has been so busy selling their house near DC,
finishing her Hebrew
studies and arranging leave from her semenary, caring for the two boys
and looking into schools for them in Wellinton.  Now they are going off
for 3 weeks on the family island off
McGregor Bay Canada before the big move.

  Hope you find an attractive teaching opportunity, if this is what you
want.
  Also congratulation to Robert on his principalship in the French
School.  It sounds, hopefully, like it might be more satisfying than his
old job.

  Blessings to all,  Nancy

damian wrote:
>
> ----------
> Walter, thanks for de Jung-L informations, i will try it. Someone knows if
> the Thymoti Leary`s home page still existe?
>
> Bye,
> Maddi Damian
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 12:15:57 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      wise assery
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a00b377153847f6@[207.54.181.19]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,
>>seem! <grin> I hope your medical team have at least half your >wisdom!

(Stephen)
>We don't need to discover why you feel I'm wise, Walter! Believe me when I
>scan the traveled landscape of my life, *wise* isn't among the signs I see.

Closing those windows I was going to print out for Judith I reread and note
how what you wrote Walter wasn't referring to me. Ha ha!  I projected my
'wishitwere' I suppose.  ...anyway it's more appropriate as it was intended.

the wise, ass,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 18:49:12 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psychic Bandwith
In-Reply-To:  <3751472A.65A7@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 3:11 pm +0100 30/05/1999, Cheryl Foltos wrote:
>Simon,
>
>I'm having a hard time imagining what this means. I don't think I know
>enough about computers to understand the reference/metaphor.
>
>Can you elucidate?

Cheryl,

Without being too literal, hopefully: bandwidth in cyberspace... defines
the data carrying capacity of the wires that make up the (Inter)network's
physical infrastructure... by extension, the more data sent, the more
bandwidth used... though the amount of data conveyed/bandwidth used doesn't
necessarily correlate to the amount of information conveyed, let alone the
amount of knowledge (or wisdom!). What is the bandwidth of a Zen koan?

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 14:22:24 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psychic Bandwith
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"Simon G. Trask" wrote:
>
> Without being too literal, hopefully: bandwidth in cyberspace... defines
> the data carrying capacity of the wires that make up the (Inter)network's
> physical infrastructure... by extension, the more data sent, the more
> bandwidth used... though the amount of data conveyed/bandwidth used doesn't
> necessarily correlate to the amount of information conveyed, let alone the
> amount of knowledge (or wisdom!).

*** What is the bandwidth of a Zen koan?***
>
  Hi Simon,

   Following through on the statements you made, I would say the answer
to you question is
'From 0 to Infinity.

   Nancy
   (Feeling terribly bright, but waiting for the pin prick to her
balloon <g>)
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 15:05:04 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Judith
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I hope I'm not too late Stephen, please send my very best thoughts, wishes,
whatever energy I can send via cyberspace to Judith.

Before she went into the hospital I had been following her thoughts about
masculinity, femininity and aggressiveness, and even wrote one response but
deleted it.  It came across as too much of a *me too* deal, but I have been
missing her very much and I'd like her to know that!

Judith, may the force be with you!

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 15:15:32 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
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In a message dated 5/28/99 9:07:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> I just checked the list with a review command and thought what a great bunch
>  of people we have here.  There are very few who have not posted and most
>  have been fully present here at one time or another.  Of course being on
the
>  list tells us some things and not others.  One thing about this list is
that
>  people drop off it unless they either post or respond to the confirm
>  membership request which comes every 4 months, so that means all have taken
>  steps to be here.
>

Me, Walter, I am here.  It looks like a few of us have some time to write to
Psyber-L with more of us *here* than at least I thought!

I've felt like a goof because I had just tried to commit myself to being more
involved in Psyber-L dialogue, about 6 weeks ago?  I was between jobs at the
time.  I had just resigned from my residential counselor job 2 weeks prior to
that.  It was a difficult thing for me to do, to resign from there, because
everyone liked me there.  But I felt I had to do it to save my life,
physically, emotionally and spiritually.

Then, I had a very strange period in which I felt disconnected from life,
myself, everything.  Then Columbine happened and jolted me emotionally.  Then
I heard from the one place I had sent a resume to... an adoption agency.  So,
for the last month I have been learning a new job, as a birth parent
counselor.  It is FASCINATING.  I am seeing my job evolving into becoming who
I am.  Does anyone understand that?

It hasn't left time for me to be involved in Psyber-L dialogue though.  Maybe
I will be able to a little more now.

Cheers to all who are here :)
Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 15:16:20 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
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In a message dated 5/30/99 8:12:14 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

>
>  I had a first edition of Politics of Ecstasy that I have lent out - I'd
>  really like it back, even though it was quite preposterous really.  Such a
>  lovely idea, that LSD could change the world.

Who says it didn't?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 16:13:42 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: Judith
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Judith:


    I hope that you're feeling better and that things will improve for you
very soon, if not sooner.


    I was just recently in the hospital, for the first time in almost 20
years, with a bout of bacterial Pneumonia. I'm feeling better now, but I
was amazed at how much it took out of me. No where near the severity of
what you're going through, but I can empathize, even if just a little.

   Take care and I hope to hear from you that you're better in the very
near future.

  Janell

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 18:19:13 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psychic Bandwith
In-Reply-To:  <3751AC10.67A9E9CE@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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all,

What I find fascinating is bandwidth taken for something more than a
quality of the network's capacity.

Bandwidth is a metaphor . . . room enough for me and mine . . .

***

Our projection of identity takes up bandwidth. How about that!

Other times people wonder if they are hogging bandwidth. I can't help but
think there is a concern about abundance being expressed.

Text doesn't take up much bandwidth on an individual basis, so to be told
something is a 'waste of bandwidth' obviously is the convenient way of
saying the equivalent of 'your breath is wasted'.

Other times the worry over "my" bandwidth and your "bandwidth" or the
rights implied by the odd idea that bandwidth is owned, (I'm on the john,
it's my plumbing,) raise up the image of two people trying to stand in the
same spot at the same time.

***

Perhaps it's time for an affirmation:


there is enough bandwidth
there is enough bandwidth
there is enough

:-)

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 May 1999 18:15:56 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bandwidth
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Simon,
I guess you'll have to ask that question to someone who knows about
computers *and* zen. Nancy's answer sounded pretty good.

all the best,

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 02:56:20 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
In-Reply-To:  <e253a263.2482e884@aol.com>
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Sheryl,

> >  Such a lovely idea, that LSD could change the world.
>
> Who says it didn't?

Ah, so *this, here now* is what we tune into!

What did I think that it *was* I needed to love?


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 14:38:00 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psychic Bandwith
In-Reply-To:  <3751AC10.67A9E9CE@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>*** What is the bandwidth of a Zen koan?***
>  Hi Simon,
>
>   Following through on the statements you made, I would say the answer
>to you question is
>'From 0 to Infinity.
>
>   Nancy
>   (Feeling terribly bright, but waiting for the pin prick to her
>balloon <g>)

You'll get no deflation from me, Nancy. More like you've hit the nail on
the head!

If I read you right:

0 = I don't get it
infinity = enlightenment

and the bandwidth of the message signifies its potential...

which may or may not be actualised on the level of the individual receiver.

Maybe I only have a very narrow bandwidth capability, or maybe my 'modem'
is broken altogether and I can't even connect to the message.

Enlightenment == all channels open, everywhere? (talking of LSD...)

Simon, in search of more bandwidth...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 09:41:52 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Who is here.
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In a message dated 5/30/99 9:07:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ writes:

> Ah, so *this, here now* is what we tune into!
>
>  What did I think that it *was* I needed to love?

I have no answers to this one Walter!  What?

I haven't read any of T.L.'s stuff.  When I think of him specifically what
goes through my mind is the Moody Blues singing "Timothy Leary's dead..."
(bet that reference could trigger a few memories!)

But re: the use of LSD (and other hallucinogens) seemed to me to introduce a
whole bunch of us to a different experience of altered reality, maybe
preparing us for many of life's experiences today?

Like communicating with a bunch of strangers via cyberspace, thinking and
having a gut feeling that we know each other, even for some with degree of
fondness and warmth!

Ha, I'd better let you expand on what it was you thought you needed to love
:)

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 14:47:44 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bandwidth
In-Reply-To:  <3751E2CC.23E4@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 2:15 am +0100 31/05/1999, Cheryl Foltos wrote:
>Simon,
>I guess you'll have to ask that question to someone who knows about
>computers *and* zen. Nancy's answer sounded pretty good.
>
>all the best,
>
>Cheryl

Bandwidth could be the width of my 'perception', a measure of how much
data, information, knowledge, wisdom or love I'm able to receive or give.
And that of course can be affected by how I'm feeling (about myself, other
people, the world around me).

Maybe the role of a therapist is to help increase the bandwidth??

Simon, musing 'out loud'...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 09:55:40 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psychic Bandwith
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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"Simon G. Trask" wrote:
>
> >*** What is the bandwidth of a Zen koan?***
> >  Hi Simon,
> >
> >   Following through on the statements you made, I would say the answer
> >to you question is
> >'From 0 to Infinity.
> >
> >   Nancy
> >   (Feeling terribly bright, but waiting for the pin prick to her
> >balloon <g>)
>
> You'll get no deflation from me, Nancy. More like you've hit the nail on
> the head!
>
> If I read you right:
>
> 0 = I don't get it
> infinity = enlightenment

N: You most always read me exactly right, Simon, and quit with the false
modesty or I shall
Begin addressing you as Lord Peter Whimsey [of whom you rather remind me
anyway!]

  Warmly, Nancy
>
> and the bandwidth of the message signifies its potential...
>
> which may or may not be actualised on the level of the individual receiver.
>
> Maybe I only have a very narrow bandwidth capability, or maybe my 'modem'
> is broken altogether and I can't even connect to the message.
>
> Enlightenment == all channels open, everywhere? (talking of LSD...)
>
> Simon, in search of more bandwidth...
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 06:42:16 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bandwidth
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Simon, Nancy, all,

I'm beginning to see the light! ;) I'm the sort that always needs things
explained to me. Between the two of you I have a glimmer of what you're
getting at.

Cheers.

Simon, are you English? Did I ask this before?

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 15:52:07 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bandwidth
In-Reply-To:  <375291B8.4207@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Simon, are you English? Did I ask this before?
>
>Cheryl

Yes, and I think so... definitely not upper class though (Nancy!)

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 11:31:58 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Bandwidth
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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   Then  I guess you'll have to be a 'plain' classy Peter Whimsey....
              Nancy

"Simon G. Trask" wrote:
>
> >Simon, are you English? Did I ask this before?
> >
> >Cheryl
>
> Yes, and I think so... definitely not upper class though (Nancy!)
>
> Simon
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 07:56:16 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Who is?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Nancy,
Who is Peter Whimsey?...

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 08:00:17 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Roles...
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You wrote,
Maybe the role of a therapist is to help increase the bandwidth??

Simon,

Or the role of a zen master?...

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 12:00:08 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Who is?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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  Lord Peter Whimsey is the sleuth in Dorothy Sayers mystery novels.
And of the people I know, every woman's dreamboat, sensitive, brave and
intelligent.
       Nancy

Cheryl Foltos wrote:
>
> Nancy,
> Who is Peter Whimsey?...
>
> Cheryl
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 May 1999 16:46:45 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Who is here?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Greetings all from the nursing home...
Life if getting more mysterious...feel like I'm starring in a Rod Serling
tv show...won't bore you with the near death to life past 10 days but to
say it was dramatic...the show has a cast of hundreds of medicals all
organized around the "interesting" mysterious condition...many moments of
hilarity...and such tragedies in the next hospital bed...good care and
caring for which I'm grateful...

When I finally brought myself into the hospital I felt like Rambo coming in
from the Jungle saying "ok, I'm coming in...get ready"...

Feeling very safe and hopeful that the mystery will be solved

Had to chuckle at the mentions about LSD...I usually don't take anything
but morphine (my drug of choice)...they had given me Percoset in February
which gave me a first hand 60's experience...I missed it the first time...a
few days of that drug and I was channeling books and fighting maya at every
turn of my mind...now I'm on something else...so far no books...

Finally on the subject of serendipity, the ambulance driver who brought me
here recognized me from a workshop I gave at his company about 5 years
ago...boy I must have looked bad back them...and the boyfriend of the woman
here in the Home worked with my ex and I 30 years ago at NCR...sometimes I
think life is all written out somewhere

So great to be able to be here

Blessings to all
Judith harnessing the collective medical mind

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 03:35:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Who is here. (Us chickens.)
In-Reply-To:  <37518930.F8DEFBE@negia.net>
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Nancy, us chickens???

>   Walter, Thanks for mentioning that NZ is just going into winter.  I
> hadn't integrated that concerning my niece who's family is moving
> there in July.  I think she  mentioned they'd be  living in Wellington.
> That would be across a channel from your home in
> Christchurch.  Is there a ferry or bridge?

Yep, it is the capital of NZ, five hours drive north from here, and
then across Cook Strait, about 3 hours in the ferry - quite a crossing
in bad weather.

> Her mother tells me that she
> will be looking for a dependable ISP
> when they arrive.  Is on better than another?

I use one of the big three... Ihug the other two are Clear and Xtra.
Any of those is ok, and they all have a wide variety of options for
pricing.  I pay NZ$45 per month for unlimited access, plus 5meg of web
pages. I find it reliable enough.  If it fails I use Xtra which I
joined for a one off joining fee and now costs me nothing per month,
$2.50 per hour.

There are lots of smaller ISPs too, with perhaps more personal
service.

>   Hope you find an attractive teaching opportunity, if this is what you
> want.

Thanks.  Sort of what I want... I would not want to be institutionally
bound up, it would need to be some courses, which could compliment
some therapy work.

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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