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Date:         Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:29:53 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: animal life

Dear Stephen,

  As commandant of the ants, could I request that you call your minions off?
They are all around my Mr. Coffee and insist on hitching a ride every time
I go near it, and come along.  They tickle and in the last analysis it is
not in the best interests of the health of either (especially them!)
  Thanks,  Nancy (who's been watching M*A*S*H reruns)

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:40:29 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
In-Reply-To:  <36FFCC12.DBFFC863@negia.net>
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Nancy,

  Re: Individual - community (shadow)
  Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:53:06 -0800

Your reflections on my comments are interesting ... I like your words "inner
ire" ... I had the idea that there was a common thread in our various
'threads'; the question of being our selves in the face of "other".  You go
on to say:

>  N: (If I understand you, Walter)This has long been a subject of
>  moderate interest to me.  People (and groups) seem to have
>  various ways of dealing with it.  I'd like to give some examples
>  of one way.  (I'm thinking mostly individuals, but Nazis vs Jews
>  would be a collective example) Some people seem to have a
>  stronger need for and 'adversary' than others.
>
>       1) Freud seems a good example of this.  He always seemed
>          to need an 'enemy'.
>
>       2) My Finnish mother-in-law was another I think.

>  As long as I knew her she was the 'victim' of her husband.  (From
>  what my ex- has said this went back as far as he could remember.
>  I don't think she was a particularly passive 'victim'.  She and I
>  seemed to get along fine (with me mostly mirroring empathy) until
>  he died.  Then her letter became very critical, not only to me,
>  but to my children also (grown by then)  The wrong Christmas
>  present (been thanked for sending a wooden block train engine to
>  a 12 yr. old), the wrong grades, life styles, you name it.  It
>  felt as if she needed some outlet for an inner ire.
>
>          I notice something similar in quite a different way
>  in myself. My newest way of viewing this is that I get an 'off
>  feeling' (could be anything: hurt feelings, something doesn't
>  work, things 'go wrong' for over two weeks) and I begin to
>  withdraw.  I think it is the build-up I sense within and then
>  project the reaction I 'expect' from others.  Then, if nothing
>  else, others react to my 'withdrawal'.


You then connect this to life in Psyber-L:

>          I don't know what you are picking up in this group.
>  It just think we are in a difficult transition period: still
>  recovering from a 'show of authority' in unsubbing, going
>  private, more new people at one time than usual, to name just a
>  few.  Our 'temenos' has developed some sharp inner spots, or so
>  it may seem to us (not to mention our individual 'real' and
>  virtual lives)  Our 'community' has become a little 'estranged'
>  perhaps?

I feel more comfortable here as a result of all of the above, not as
'estranged', yet we have ben dealing with shadows and I am still intrigued
by Dan's comment on the value of the shadow in politics (groups).  Links in
I thought with the value of illness that Judith has been reflecting on.

I wonder how the word 'transition' sits with others... new people would not
sense it I think, others may see the 'old' as far behind, or the new not yet
here.  I share your sense of transition. I find that ebbs and flows in our
interconnections and discussions are slow, we have long memories, and even
longer in this asynchronous mode.

I am curious about your notion of 'sharp inner spots' in the 'temenos'.  I
think of old smouldering fires on fields far away, but still close enough
for us to see the smoke and perhaps a faint glow in the night.  Perhaps your
ires are more acute?

>          I am in a group where there is a good bit of back
>  channeling.  I think it is because there are a couple of people
>  in the group who are quite critical and have some power in the
>  interest area that is the groups reason for being.

>  N: In my experience they less 'represent' the shadow than they
>  simply expose it to sunlight...that which can't be openly exposed
>  in the group.

Why do you say can't?  I know some things are private, others confidential,
and these contours are to be honoured but others by staying "backchannel"
might take on something darker.  In the case of the "therapeutic friendship"
that Renata has mentioned I think that was the case, in the light comes in
the correspondence *about* such suspect 'private talk'.


More on my mind, but i will take it to the "back-channel" thread, here in
Psyber-L (not back-channel :-)



Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:57:33 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Back-channeling
In-Reply-To:  <19990330211407.2693.rocketmail@web208.mail.yahoo.com>
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renata,

I am glad you have let us know in Psyber-L, and I hope that the responses so
far have been useful for you in this situation.

>  1) I checked and he's no longer a member anymore, so you shouldn't
>  feel unsafe.

Good!  Otherwise I think there would be some work for me as 'List owner'.
Even now I wonder if there is anything that could have been done that might
have prevented this sort of thing?  I don't like the idea that someone uses
this list to strike up private friendships, which are hidden from the light
of the membership as a whole, especially if they are not participants here
and also if there are possible gender issues or other boundaries involved.
Offering therapy, paid or unpaid would be to cross such a boundary imo.

Should there be some statement in our "welcome file" making this sort of
behaviour more explicitly unwelcome?

I think it would be useful to put this person on a list of people who should
not join this list.

>  2) I'm sorry for blaming the list for all this

Makes sense to do that, and also to withdraw it as you have done!  All part
of a worthwhile process I think.

I hope that as I reflect on these things others also think of what might be
good practice with respect to this sort of pace, and how the listowner can
influence the 'temenos'.



Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:40:13 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Back-channeling
In-Reply-To:  <37013883.25A@coinet.com>
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Cheryl, All,

  Back-channeling
  Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:48:03 -0800

I have been thinking about this during the quiet days here ... Cheryl you
ask "What difference does it make, Walter?" I am not sure.  As a therapist
with individuals and groups i have such as sense of boundaries and
containment that I sometimes think I go way over the top.  I get the creeps
when my solicitor mutters something about one of his other clients and even
when the plumber does it.  I also see firms listing their clients, something
which happens on the net a lot... I guess that is done by contract.  It
seems i live in a world where everything is confidential. I'm not a good one
to ask!

Have just in writing these posts clarified something though:

Backchannel is not good or bad as such, it depends on the purpose.

In the welcome file for example I explicitly ask people to post to me in
private if they think that i need to know something that is happening on
list... (such things as threats or verbal abuse).  This is worth doing
because I give priority to personal mail, and if the list is very busy I
might not get to all the posts immediately.

More reflections on the nature of privacy, confidentiality and secrecy:

In the online world I have a sense of a strong netiquette of not posting
private email in public.  I am sure that it is a good principle, though
there are other ethical principles that would override that in some cases,
for example protecting others.

What about forwarding private mail to others?  Perhaps for some help in
formulating a reply?  A sort of informal online mentoring?  I think it might
be ok, but I can see huge traps... some of which include the propensity for
email to obscure who said what, some of it that email goes to the wrong
recipient in error etc.

But then what about taking email from this Psyber-L outside of it to others,
for any purpose, even a therapist or a mentor, supervisor?  There is a case
for saying "everything belongs in the group".  Is this a group?  We have to
make these codes as we evolve i think, not "rules" so much, those too, but a
comprehension of the appropriate ethics to a situation.

On many online places they say "take the flames to email" meaning do not
contaminate the group with them.  I don't like the idea, I never have, but
there may be a place for it if the war is about Apples vs. Wintel etc.

There is another area where i have seen strong advocacy for the use of
backchannel.  Here is a good example of what i mean from Cliff Figgalo's
book *Hosting Web Communities : Building Relationships, Increasing Customer
Loyalty, and Maintaining a Competitive Edge* P. 205

    Once relationships are established in public systems, people will
    want to isolate their most trusted interactions from the fishbowl
    of open access.  Private discussions, through email, one-to-one
    messaging, and exclusive forums, are the backchannel foundations
    of a lasting community. Boosting the backchannel is one way to
    add to the user's feeling that you are serving his or her
    important personal communication needs.(*)


All makes good sense.  In some ways we have taken the *whole of Psyber-L*
into an exclusive forum.  As those who have been here longer know, I have
the intention of re-creating the public forum, making this one more private
seemed the best step in that process.

Obviously there are good things about backchannel and my linking it with the
shadow might not be such a good idea.  I imagine though that when there are
simply good things happening between people off list, that those things are
private and confidential but not secret, ie it is known that Josh (who used
to be here, is my son, that Dan and Brian who both post very occasionally
are rl friends here in Christchurch, this interconnection of online and off
list is great!)

I have had a bit of a rave, I have clarified a few things for me Cheryl, how
does all this sit with you now?


Your original post:

>  I too have wondered if there is back-channleing in our list. I have felt
>  there is..or sensed it..or been paranoid about it... I don't know which
>  is correct. Speaking for myself, I don't communictae with anyone on this
>  list except on the list. Somwhow it doesn't feel right to do so. But
>  that's just my own feeling of propriety. If people here are friends in
>  real life (like Stephen and Judith and Joanne and some other guy here
>  whose name I can't remember but who knew Julienne with her) then it's
>  natural that they would communicate off list and so called "back
>  channel". What difference does it make, Walter?



Walter


(*) I had to edit that to make the language inclusive ... I hate having to
do that, especially in a book written in 1998! I like the guy. A bit of
outter ire on my part!
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 13:48:47 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: brooking foolishness 2
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a01b3218bfb04b4@[207.54.160.39]>
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Stephen

I'm about to enter into a dreamland of images & associations...

Exploring naively, playfully, foolishly... nothing will come of it... a
mug's game, a waste of time, forget it, like a dream morning will come and
it will be gone, a fool's paradise, madness ...

>  Do you think fools ever feel much pressure to be foolish? In riffing about
>  fools and foolishness, you note, "Fools were really the only members of
>  their societies who could tell the truth to the King or Queen without
>  having their heads lopped off." So does foolishness descrribe an
>  opportunity?

Does a clown feel pressure to be funny?  I think the clown comes when the
nose goes on.


>  ***
>
>  Let's refer to near the beginning of the poem:
>
>  I build a palace
>  the world pulls it down:
>  what do you call this
>  but PLAY?
>  What is it: Ludus?
>  that from which nothing
>  is gained. But you
>  are mad for it.
>
>  About the poem, it's statements are stated with severity. Our connotations
>  may be required to change, to enable us to begin to find our way.

I have built a few palaces in my time, and all of them are flat, like sand
castles in the rain.

Does the World pull them down?  I tend to think they are not good enough,
and they don't do the trick.

Psyber-L sometimes feels like one of my wet castles.  I am a wet Tower?  My
castles are made in play, and turn to mud when i live in them. I have to
work to see shit from clay.


>  ***
>
>  You wrote, "If Ludens is something about being playful, Foolish, then
>  satirically, play might be wisdom... " Your intuition is marvelous, yet,
>  for it to become powerful it needs to be driven into the very disturbing
>  implication: <<mad for PLAY from which is nothing is gained.>> (Ludus;
>  (yes), play, to game, to make sport of)

How about this from King Lear:


Fool

Mark it, nuncle:
Have more than thou showest,
Speak less than thou knowest,
Lend less than thou owest,
Ride more than thou goest,
Learn more than thou trowest,
Set less than thou throwest;
Leave thy drink and thy whore,
And keep in-a-door,
And thou shalt have more
Than two tens to a score.


KENT

This is nothing, fool.

Fool

Then 'tis like the breath of an unfee'd lawyer; you
gave me nothing for't. Can you make no use of
nothing, nuncle?


KING LEAR

Why, no, boy; nothing can be made out of nothing.

~~~

Lear of course is suffering the loss of his castle, his state...

and in Nasir-I Kushraw's  poem:


When you were so rich
     why didn't you stash something
to tide you over now
     you're down and out?
Your 'states' are like
     fish in the sea:
in the sea who owns them
     mon brave?


>  ***

>  But I guarantee that if you come to know this poem, it will bring out a
>  foolishness you may not know you have access to! That's the way it works.
>
>  ***
>  playin'
>  Stephen

I'm just foolin' around here, but i trust nothing will come of it!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 06:24:02 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Things to Ponder
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Wallter, Psyber-folk,

It is very early on a Saturday morning. I am sitting here in my kitchen
with a cup of coffee looking out over the back fence into the park.
Musing. Having just read Walter's (and Nancy's) posts about back
channeling. What caught my eye was a statement from Nancy about power. So
here's my question....where is power anyway? So much of it seems to be
just in the mind...but not all....if you think someone has power, they
do, if you don't think they do, you diminish it..the power of opinion
regardless of fact...the power of the people...physical power(as in
Kosovo)...too much for my brain to sort out...power is often thrust on
people who don't want it...others command/demand it...the power of gossip
to "determine" fact (ie repeat a lie often enough and noone will ever
belive the truth)..giving away our power...reclaiming our power...the
power of the shadow..power over others...maybe I'm thinking about this
because of the topic...back-channeling leaves one powerless...someone
once said to me.."there's nothing you can do about what people
think"..it's so difficult tobe powerless in the face of injustice...and
on and on...too much for so early in the morning.

Looks like a beautiful day. Spring is just about here although we had
several inches of snow this week..only the shady spots inthe garden
still have small patches of it. So much of the mundane to take care of
today. The fellow Walter quoted saying that back-channeling binds(bonds?)
a community...true enough but intent is so imporatnt...what KIND of
community then emerges...a deluded one or an enlightening one...and on
and on. I'm rambling..to no one in particular...tomoorow is Eater.. a
holy-day in Christendom..a spring day in half the world, an autumn day
elsewhere..may I share a poem with you all..one of my favorites froma
favorite poet - Mary Oliver

The Summer Day

Who made the world?
Who made the swan, and the black bear?
Who made the grasshopper?
This grasshopper, I mean ---
the one who has flung herself out of the grass,
the one who is eating sugar out of my hand,
who is moving her jaws back and forth instead of up and down ---
who is gazing around with her enormous and complicated eyes.
Now she lifts her pale forearms and throughly washes her face.
Now she snaps her wings open, and floats away.
I don't know exactly what prayer is.
I do know how to pay attention, how to fall down
into the grass, how to kneel down in the grass,
how to be idle and blessed, how to stroll the through the fields,
which is what I have been doing all day?
Tell me, what else should I have done?
Doesn't evrything die at last, and too soon?
Tell me, what is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?

As Judith says,

Blessings to you all.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 09:58:09 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Back-channeling
In-Reply-To:  <3705e8ee.113065476@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:40 PM 4/3/99 GMT, Walter wrote:
>Cheryl, All,
>
>  Back-channeling
>  Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:48:03 -0800
>
>I have been thinking about this during the quiet days here ... Cheryl you
>ask "What difference does it make, Walter?" I am not sure.  As a therapist
>with individuals and groups i have such as sense of boundaries and
>containment that I sometimes think I go way over the top.  I get the creeps
>when my solicitor mutters something about one of his other clients and even
>when the plumber does it.  I also see firms listing their clients, something
>which happens on the net a lot... I guess that is done by contract.  It
>seems i live in a world where everything is confidential. I'm not a good one
>to ask!
>
>Have just in writing these posts clarified something though:
>
>Backchannel is not good or bad as such, it depends on the purpose.
>
>In the welcome file for example I explicitly ask people to post to me in
>private if they think that i need to know something that is happening on
>list... (such things as threats or verbal abuse).  This is worth doing
>because I give priority to personal mail, and if the list is very busy I
>might not get to all the posts immediately.
>
>More reflections on the nature of privacy, confidentiality and secrecy:
>
>In the online world I have a sense of a strong netiquette of not posting
>private email in public.  I am sure that it is a good principle, though
>there are other ethical principles that would override that in some cases,
>for example protecting others.
>
>What about forwarding private mail to others?  Perhaps for some help in
>formulating a reply?  A sort of informal online mentoring?  I think it might
>be ok, but I can see huge traps... some of which include the propensity for
>email to obscure who said what, some of it that email goes to the wrong
>recipient in error etc.
>
>But then what about taking email from this Psyber-L outside of it to others,
>for any purpose, even a therapist or a mentor, supervisor?  There is a case
>for saying "everything belongs in the group".  Is this a group?

Just my two cents on this question - for myself, I feel that the internet
is pretty public, however private certain lists may feel. For this reason I
am usually hesitant to discuss personal issues on line, preferring to talk
books, ideas, etc. I don't think that I would be comfortable bringing
everything to the group.

BTW, I didn't "snip" anything from the rest of the post because I don't yet
know the group "rule" on this  - do we "snip" where appropriate to save
bandwidth or reproduce the entire post to which we are responding?

Regards,

Dan

> We have to
>make these codes as we evolve i think, not "rules" so much, those too, but a
>comprehension of the appropriate ethics to a situation.
>
>On many online places they say "take the flames to email" meaning do not
>contaminate the group with them.  I don't like the idea, I never have, but
>there may be a place for it if the war is about Apples vs. Wintel etc.
>
>There is another area where i have seen strong advocacy for the use of
>backchannel.  Here is a good example of what i mean from Cliff Figgalo's
>book *Hosting Web Communities : Building Relationships, Increasing Customer
>Loyalty, and Maintaining a Competitive Edge* P. 205
>
>    Once relationships are established in public systems, people will
>    want to isolate their most trusted interactions from the fishbowl
>    of open access.  Private discussions, through email, one-to-one
>    messaging, and exclusive forums, are the backchannel foundations
>    of a lasting community. Boosting the backchannel is one way to
>    add to the user's feeling that you are serving his or her
>    important personal communication needs.(*)
>
>
>All makes good sense.  In some ways we have taken the *whole of Psyber-L*
>into an exclusive forum.  As those who have been here longer know, I have
>the intention of re-creating the public forum, making this one more private
>seemed the best step in that process.
>
>Obviously there are good things about backchannel and my linking it with the
>shadow might not be such a good idea.  I imagine though that when there are
>simply good things happening between people off list, that those things are
>private and confidential but not secret, ie it is known that Josh (who used
>to be here, is my son, that Dan and Brian who both post very occasionally
>are rl friends here in Christchurch, this interconnection of online and off
>list is great!)
>
>I have had a bit of a rave, I have clarified a few things for me Cheryl, how
>does all this sit with you now?
>
>
>Your original post:
>
>>  I too have wondered if there is back-channleing in our list. I have felt
>>  there is..or sensed it..or been paranoid about it... I don't know which
>>  is correct. Speaking for myself, I don't communictae with anyone on this
>>  list except on the list. Somwhow it doesn't feel right to do so. But
>>  that's just my own feeling of propriety. If people here are friends in
>>  real life (like Stephen and Judith and Joanne and some other guy here
>>  whose name I can't remember but who knew Julienne with her) then it's
>>  natural that they would communicate off list and so called "back
>>  channel". What difference does it make, Walter?
>
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>(*) I had to edit that to make the language inclusive ... I hate having to
>do that, especially in a book written in 1998! I like the guy. A bit of
>outter ire on my part!
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:57:04 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Nancy,
>
> I am curious about your notion of 'sharp inner spots' in the 'temenos'.  I
> think of old smouldering fires on fields far away, but still close enough
> for us to see the smoke and perhaps a faint glow in the night.  Perhaps your
> ires are more acute?

N: More acute than......?

   When I first began to catch on to 'temenos' as an alchemical vas and
as
a term in my Jungian analysis.  I would sometimes feel quite angry with
my
analyst (the fact that both she and my then disliked supervisor at work
has
strong 'Sensation' which is my interior function didn't help!) I would
paint
little red devils dancing in a tear shaped vas (beaker?) with flames
under
it.
    Then I was writing to this list recently about 'our shared temenos'
the
image that came into my mind was of such a vas with sharp shards of
glass
melted to the inner surface.  Thus in response to your question I found
I
was perceiving our vas as 'safe from outside' but a place where one had
to
move carefully to avoid getting 'cut' on the inside.
>
> >          I am in a group where there is a good bit of back
> >  channeling.  I think it is because there are a couple of people
> >  in the group who are quite critical and have some power in the
> >  interest area that is the groups reason for being.
>
> >  N: In my experience they less 'represent' the shadow than they
> >  simply expose it to sunlight...that which can't be openly exposed
> >  in the group.
>
> Why do you say can't?  I know some things are private, others confidential,
> and these contours are to be honoured but others by staying "backchannel"
> might take on something darker.  In the case of the "therapeutic friendship"
> that Renata has mentioned I think that was the case, in the light comes in
> the correspondence *about* such suspect 'private talk'.

N: I was speaking of a poetry group which has as members some pretty
influential poets in 'my little pond'.  I felt they 'used' their
'positions'
(there had not actual power as list-owners or moderators) to be
unnecessarily
harsh in criticism and authoritarian and that it was detrimental to a
potential playful group spirit as well as creative spontaneity of
individuals.
Some of them were also editors of their own journals.  I was new to the
group
and working slowly to remedy the situation.  It wasn't in out best
interest
publication-wise to go openly head to head with them.  There was a fair
amount
of 'back-channelling' while I came to understand the situation.  No
flames
or back-biting particularly, just straight-forward communication.
        Perhaps this has similarities to your psycho-drama organizational
challenges?
        I'm pretty content with the way the poetry group has resolved itself
at the moment.

        Does this resolve your questions, Walter?

                Nancy
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:18:38 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Back-channeling
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:

>  I don't like the idea that someone uses
> this list to strike up private friendships, which are hidden from the light
> of the membership as a whole, especially if they are not participants here
> and also if there are possible gender issues or other boundaries involved.

N: Just my opinion, Walter, but I feel you are taking on undue
responsibility
here (as least in the general way this statement is phrased, lifted out
of
context.)
   It seems to me similar to a situation which arose when I met one of
the
Oscar Meyer (meat packing) brothers in the waiting room of my first
analyst.
We struck up an acquaintence, he invited me on his yaught to go down to
a
dinner theater.  We dated a few times, but I was more interested in
someone
else.  My analyst didn't raise any particular objections.
   Might this be a bit of your 'big brother' complex?  (Abraham Low,
founder
of the Recovery movement addresses this issue.)
   I do think that this went badly for Renata and she would have been
well
within her rights to bring it to your attention, but I sort of gathered
that
the 'time flow' of the situation was such that this wouldn't have quite
worked.
   I suppose we are all adults here...though I don't know of anything
that
would prevent a bright teen from joining (???)

        Nancy
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:38:01 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Back-channeling
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> In the welcome file for example I explicitly ask people to post to me in
> private if they think that i need to know something that is happening on
> list... (such things as threats or verbal abuse).  This is worth doing
> because I give priority to personal mail, and if the list is very busy I
> might not get to all the posts immediately.
>
> More reflections on the nature of privacy, confidentiality and secrecy:
>
> In the online world I have a sense of a strong netiquette of not posting
> private email in public.  I am sure that it is a good principle, though
> there are other ethical principles that would override that in some cases,
> for example protecting others.
>
> What about forwarding private mail to others?  Perhaps for some help in
> formulating a reply?  A sort of informal online mentoring?  I think it might
> be ok, but I can see huge traps... some of which include the propensity for
> email to obscure who said what, some of it that email goes to the wrong
> recipient in error etc.

N: I've been through this with some private correspondents.  We've agree
that
its okay if the personal parts (including names) are 'snipped'.  Mostly
it's
joke such as I posted about dogs and cats.
>
W: But then what about taking email from this Psyber-L outside of it to
others,
> for any purpose, even a therapist or a mentor, supervisor?  There is a case
> for saying "everything belongs in the group".  Is this a group?  We have to
> make these codes as we evolve i think, not "rules" so much, those too, but a
> comprehension of the appropriate ethics to a situation.

N: I think taking anything pertainent to a licensed, paid therapist
(espec.
an analysist) has to be allowed.  There again I don't  see why names
shouldn't
be withheld.  It would be the interpersonal transaction and clients
reaction
which would be pertinent to therapy.
>
W: On many online places they say "take the flames to email" meaning do
not
> contaminate the group with them.

N: It isn't exactly maturely managing one's own anger to flame anyway,
is it?

W: I don't like the idea, I never have, but
> there may be a place for it if the war is about Apples vs. Wintel etc.

N: What's a 'Wintel'?

> _
         Nancy
   ______________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 22:31:09 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Back-channeling
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19990403095809.00ae8220@swlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dan,

>  I feel that the internet
>  is pretty public, however private certain lists may feel.

It is not just to do with feeling.  There is something which I think of as
the soma of cyberspace.  Psyber-L used to have archives that were public.
Now they are member only.  People used to be able to join without others
knowing, now they are introduced as you were.  These are not just things one
agrees to or part of the ethos, they are set in the structure of the list.

OK, that is still very public, and I take your point about hesitancy to go
to personal, however there is a whole range of privacy online, this is a
slightly more private place than some.

Then there is the *ethos* which is not built into the actual structure but
related to the Description statement, which everyone is asked to read.  It
is mentioned that words from here are not to be quoted outside the list for
example.  You will see that they set a certain tone, which does leave its
impact here. ( I will post both to the list as I have not done that for a
while.)

Can we go more personal?  I know I can, I am on another list where there are
only four people, and the format is tighter than here, we do not admit new
people without unanimous agrement.  That gives it a whole new *feel*, but it
is not a feeling based on nothing, it is a feeling in response to the
cyber-soma!


>  For this reason I
>  am usually hesitant to discuss personal issues on line, preferring to talk
>  books, ideas, etc. I don't think that I would be comfortable bringing
>  everything to the group.

Does that mean you use the backchannel?  That is private conversations
online but off list?


>  BTW, I didn't "snip" anything from the rest of the post because I don't yet
>  know the group "rule" on this  - do we "snip" where appropriate to save
>  bandwidth or reproduce the entire post to which we are responding?


Snip! I will add more on that below, thanks for asking Dan, much
appreciated.  There is no definite restriction, but less is more here as by
quoting the lines we think are pertinent, we add information!  Conscious
quoting is a form of active and reflective mirroring.


Walter

~~~

http://psybernet.co.nz/pl_descript.txt


| * Quoting: Please keep quoting from earlier emails (using the >
|   sign) to a minimum.  Quote enough to put your response in
|   context. Please do not use more than two generations of quoting (>>).


I recently posted some reasons for this policy, which I will
repeat here:

*  Readability:
As member mentioned:  "I don't  want to climb over many barriers
to fetch your grains of gold."  This is the main reason as far as
I am concerned.

*  Cost:
Everything in this list is saved to disc and online for future
reference.  It costs 25c per meg per month and it is a wasted to
have endless repeats of the messages.

* Bandwidth cost:
Some people pay quite a lot for traffic and even email can
add up.

* Save trees:
Often people print a series of posts and it is unecological and
unpleasant to have several pages repeated *unnecessarily*.

* Searching:
When looking for a word or phrase it comes up too many times in
a search if there is excessive quoting. This severely limits the
*knowledge base* we have evolved to date.

* Confusion:
More than one generation of quotes can become confusing.  Please
find other ways of referring to older contributions.  Short
summaries are often effective, with a link or reference to the
post if need be.
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 22:32:53 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      == Psyber-L: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

== Psyber-L: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace ==
== Description & Information ==
Updated:  19 December 1998


In this file you will find the following:

    = DESCRIPTION =

    = Purpose =
    = Networking =
    = Psyber-L Settings =
    = Listowner & Host =
    = Guidelines for Psyber-L Members =
    = How to send your posts to Psyber-L =
    = Psyber-L Web Interface =
    = Mail Management =


    = INFORMATION =

    = Subscribe and Unsubscribe to Psyber-L:
    = The Psybernet Web Pages =
    = Access to Psyber-L Files via Email =



= DESCRIPTION =

Psybernet was formed in 1993 to offer professional psychological
services on the Internet.  The Psyber-L mailing list grew out of
the need to learn more about and experience first hand the
potential of the net, especially how online group interaction
effects the psyche.  Psyber-L is a starting point for depth
psychological work on the net, and also a place for exploring and
defining its directions.


= Purpose =

The purpose of Psyber-L is to learn experientially about the
psyche in cyberspace. As all online discussion contributes to the
unfolding of the psyche a wide range of topics is suitable.
Participants are encouraged to make posts about the process and
how the psyche manifests and can be nurtured in cyberspace. The
comment and learning is not kept separate from the discussion, it
forms an integral part of it.

The list is an environment in which its participants can
experiment and learn from experience about the scope of online
interaction for ethical psychological depth work.  Psyber-L is
forum for individual experiential research, it is requested that
the list is not used for academic or other research.

To give a sense of the intended direction of the discussions,
here is a sampling of topics that have been, and continue to be
discussed on the list.  There is a continued focus on how these
psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace:

        depth psychology
        leadership in communication networks
        creating communication environments
        gender issues
        imagination
        metaphors
        archetypes
        dreams
        myths
        personal identity
        psychotherapy
        the unconscious
        group dynamics.

Etiquette, ethos and ethics of the list have an impact on the
psychological nature of it, and hence are suitable topics for
discussion in the list.  Below in the Information section of this
file you will find links to the key people and ideas that inspire
the work of this list.  These files are mentioned to give you a
sense of the scope of Psyber-L.


= Networking =

Relationships of a collegial nature around our psychological net
interests is an important part of the work. This has developed to
the point where, at times, there is a sense of community
building. The value, direction and purpose of the emerging
connections are suitable topics for discussion.


= Psyber-L Settings =

The parameters of the list are set by the list owner, any changes
to the settings will be clearly notified in the list.  Current
settings:


* Psyber-L membership is monitored by the Listowner.  There is no
  vetting or verification of identity.  Prospective members are
  asked to be familiar with this file, Psyber-L.Descript, and to
  indicate their interest in Psyber-L.

* The list is unmoderated, in the sense that all messages are
  instantly posted, and not previewed in any way.  With
  discretion the listowner can review posts, this would not be
  done without notification of the person(s) concerned.

* Archives:  Note that everything you say on Psyber-L will
  be in a permanent archive and will not be removed once posted.
  The archive is available to members only.

* The list of members can be requested by members only.
  Concealment on this list is not an option, as concealed members
  are set to non-concealed regularly.


= Listowner & Host =

The list is "owned" by Walter Logeman, that's me.  I am a
psychotherapist in private practice in Christchurch, New Zealand
and the founder of the Psybernet project. I pay for the means of
its existence, and I have access to change the settings.  I am
responsible for this Psyber-L.Descript file the INFO and WELCOME
files that define Psyber-L.  I can change these files at any
time, however I only do so with discussion and notification in
Psyber-L.  I am the "Host", in that role I introduce new members
and ensure we have an environment conducive to the purpose of
Psyber-L.

I am a participant in the discussions.

How I juggle the three roles:  Listowner, Host and Participant
may have a profound impact on the psychological life of Psyber-L.
Discussion of the listowner, host and other roles and styles is
an important aspect of learning about the psyche.  I may be
absent at times, and there is no guarantee I will read every post
immediately.  I rarely enter into extended discussion outside the
list about matters that could be discussed in the list.  However,
please note:

Should there be matters that you consider require the attention
of the Listowner, matters that simply writing to the list will
not achieve, please send a cc to me or email me directly.  I give
personal email a priority and there are times it is important I
am involved as Listowner.


= Guidelines for Psyber-L members =

* Personal attacks or threats are not welcome.

* Ownership of your words: In Psyber-L your words remain your
  property. Please do not use other people's posts outside the
  list without their permission.  If the writer can not be
  contacted discuss permission with the Listowner.  Please notify
  the Listowner if material is to be used off-list.

* Topics:  Feel free to start a new topic.  This is done by using
  a new Subject: line in your posts. It is best if they relate to
  the purpose of the list, however it is very broad.

* Privacy:  Private emails are not to be quoted in Psyber-L
  without permission from the writer.

* Quoting: Please keep quoting from earlier emails (using the >
  sign) to a minimum.  Quote enough to put your response in
  context. Please do not use more than two generations of quoting
  (>>).

* The preferred format for writing and reading the text in the
  posts is a fixed pitch font such as Courier New, 10pt and no
  more than 76 characters per line.  Please do not send
  attachments, multimedia or HTML files to the list.

* Netiquette: If you are not familiar with the basics of
  etiquette on the Internet please check out or ask in Psyber-L.


= How to send your posts to Psyber-L =

To send an email that will be distributed to the list send it to:

Psyber-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM


= Psyber-L Web Interface =

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

Psyber-L has a useful interface on the web.  You can read all the
posts, write new ones or reply.  You can also change your
settings there.  There is an excellent search facility which
means
Psyber-L is an extensive knowledge base.  Note that if you are
away from your own machine you can still access the list on
anyone's computer, although there are some instructions to
follow for security.  You can participate fully via the web and
not use email at all by setting the list to NOMAIL.


= Mail Management =

Sometimes the list has many posts each day. To keep track of the
discussions it is recommended that you file the posts in a
mail folder you create for Psyber-L.

I recommend you create a filter to automatically move the mail
into the Psyber-L folder as it arrives.

You can also set the list to a digest option which
puts all the posts from that day in one email.  Not recommended
as you do not readily see subject and author lines.  Makes
replying to one post more work.

The list is set so that each post has [P] in the subject line.
You can turn this off if you wish with a SET command, or from the
web interface. You receive copies of the posts you make, this is
also something you can change.

All of the guidelines will be repeated in the Welcome file


= INFORMATION =

= Subscribe and Unsubscribe to Psyber-L: =

Send a command to:

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

in the BODY of email:

SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname

For example:

SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith

Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive further
instructions, please respond to those.

To leave Psyber-L, send an email to:

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

In the body of the email write:

SIGNOFF  PSYBER-L

~~~

Subscription can be made from the Web at:

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

You can also monitor all your setting from there.



= The Psybernet Web Pages =

http://www.psybernet.co.nz

You will see the Psybernet Motif, click on through to find files
on Depth Psychology and on Key Ideas and Key People that will
give an indication of the ethos of Psyber-L.

Psyber-L has its own page there which has links to some of the
files mentioned here.

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/psyber-l.htm



= Access to Psyber-L Files via Email =

It is useful to become familiar with sending commands to the
listserver. Feel free to try them out.  The listserver (the
machine that does all this work) has the following address, you
may wish to add it to your Address Book, note that it is
*different* from the one used to send your posts to the list (see
above):

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

Send following commands in the body of the email to the listserv
to get files sent back via email:

INDEX  PSYBER-L
    This will return an index of all the files, including the
    archives of the list.

GET PSYBER-L WELCOME
    Automatic upon subscription, & available at any time.

GET PSYBER-L DESCRIPT
    This file.  Latest version can be obtained with this command.
    This file is the main description of the list.  It is
    requested that all members are familiar with this file.

INFO PSYBER-L
    The short list Description, useful to send to prospective
    list members.

INDEX PSYBER-L
    You get a list of files that are available.

SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname

SIGNOFF  PSYBER-L
    To leave Mailing List at any time.

HELP  PSYBER-L
    More commands you can send. Get this one for information on
    how to customise your settings.

REVIEW  PSYBER-L
    Will give you a list of all the people who are on the list.

~~~

If you have a problem with the PSYBER-L list, write to the list
owners at the generic address:

PSYBER-L-request@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

or contact

Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:29:11 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Back-channeling
In-Reply-To:  <37068ed5.22923297@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Walter,
At 10:31 PM 4/3/99 GMT, you wrote:
>Dan,
>
>>  I feel that the internet
>>  is pretty public, however private certain lists may feel.
>
>It is not just to do with feeling.  There is something which I think of as
>the soma of cyberspace.  Psyber-L used to have archives that were public.
>Now they are member only.  People used to be able to join without others
>knowing, now they are introduced as you were.  These are not just things one
>agrees to or part of the ethos, they are set in the structure of the list.
>
>OK, that is still very public, and I take your point about hesitancy to go
>to personal, however there is a whole range of privacy online, this is a
>slightly more private place than some.
>
>Then there is the *ethos* which is not built into the actual structure but
>related to the Description statement, which everyone is asked to read.  It
>is mentioned that words from here are not to be quoted outside the list for
>example.  You will see that they set a certain tone, which does leave its
>impact here. ( I will post both to the list as I have not done that for a
>while.)
>
>Can we go more personal?  I know I can, I am on another list where there are
>only four people, and the format is tighter than here, we do not admit new
>people without unanimous agrement.  That gives it a whole new *feel*, but it
>is not a feeling based on nothing, it is a feeling in response to the
>cyber-soma!
>
>
>>  For this reason I
>>  am usually hesitant to discuss personal issues on line, preferring to talk
>>  books, ideas, etc. I don't think that I would be comfortable bringing
>>  everything to the group.
>
>Does that mean you use the backchannel?  That is private conversations
>online but off list? (snp)
>
>
No, not on this list in any case. I subscribe to another list here it is
common, abnd where I use it sometimes.

Regards,

Dan

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Apr 1999 01:15:53 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
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Nancy, Cheryl, Dan, all,


> N: More acute than......?

The faint glow in the distance that i saw... and yes it is more acute and
internal to the vessel as you go on to say...

> Then I
> was writing to this list recently about 'our shared
> temenos' the image that came into my mind was of such a
> vas with sharp shards of glass melted to the inner
> surface.  Thus in response to your question I found I was
> perceiving our vas as 'safe from outside' but a place
> where one had to move carefully to avoid getting 'cut' on
> the inside.

An awful place to be really!  I do love it that we share these images of
this forum like this, I think it reveals how the psyche works in cyberspace
(much like elsewhere).  I can see that your shards are not all that
different from the old smouldering fires in the field that I mention, but
much more *acute*, and severe... and they may relate to dangers that do not
exist for me here but they do for you.

You mentioned that on a list you were on some things could not be expressed
in the group, I responded:


> > Why do you say can't?

You go on to say:

> N: I was speaking of a poetry group which has as members
> some pretty influential poets in 'my little pond'.  I felt
> they 'used' their 'positions' (there had not actual power as
> list-owners or moderators) to be unnecessarily harsh in
> criticism and authoritarian and that it was detrimental to a
> potential playful group spirit as well as creative
> spontaneity of individuals. Some of them were also editors
> of their own journals.  I was new to the group and working
> slowly to remedy the situation.  It wasn't in out best
> interest publication-wise to go openly head to head with
> them.  There was a fair amount of 'back-channelling' while I
> came to understand the situation.  No flames or back-biting
> particularly, just straight-forward communication. Perhaps
> this has similarities to your psycho-drama organizational
> challenges? I'm pretty content with the way the poetry group
> has resolved itself at the moment.

Yes I see.  The 'power' there is not embedded in the software as such or
'cybersomatic' (if you excuse my use of what I think is a wonderful word,
means we can talk of actual power here without it being physical power!).
Nor is it specified in the charter (legal power?), it is the result of the
ethos and culture of the group, which is related to the social position in
rl. Powerful forces indeed ...

Interesting to note Cheryl's morning coffee reflection on this:

     Things to Ponder
     Sat, 3 Apr 1999 06:24:02 -0800

| What caught my eye was a statement from
| Nancy about power. So here's my question....where is power
| anyway? So much of it seems to be just in the mind...but not
| all....if you think someone has power, they do, if you don't
| think they do, you diminish it..the power of opinion regardless
| of fact...the power of the people...physical power(as in
| Kosovo)...too much for my brain to sort out...power is often
| thrust on people who don't want it...others command/demand
| it...the power of gossip to "determine" fact (i.e. repeat a lie
| often enough and no one will ever believe the truth)..giving away
| our power...reclaiming our power...the power of the shadow..power
| over others...maybe I'm thinking about this because of the
| topic...back-channeling leaves one powerless...someone once said
| to me.."there's nothing you can do about what people think"..it's
| so difficult to be powerless in the face of injustice...and on and
| on...too much for so early in the morning.

Especially too much when you mention Kosovo... My inner ire is working away
there as I feel powerless, not only about what is happening but about what I
see as emotional manipulation of the situation in our media. There is a
strong link between the physical power, and the power of words here... and
it all remains too 'inner' as I am loathe to become an 'activist' once
again.  I notice that my son in London is doing just that, painting
placards.

> Does this resolve your questions, Walter?

Nancy, I am content to attend to these questions... they go deeply into what
we are about with our explorations.  Right now I am thinking about your
shards here... being inside a vessel with such sharp edges must be awful!  I
do have some inkling as to how they appear there.  How can we attend to
them, or is that, as it is on the other list curtailed by various 'power'
situations?  Or is it as Dan said too personal for this space?


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Apr 1999 01:44:49 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Back-channeling
In-Reply-To:  <3706779E.F772D453@negia.net>
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Nancy,

> N: Just my opinion, Walter, but I feel you are taking on undue
> responsibility  here (as least in the general way this statement
> is phrased, lifted out of  context.)

...

>    Might this be a bit of your 'big brother' complex?

Perhaps, but while we are on the question of 'power', there are certain
chores that come with the job of list owner.  What is neglect of that power
and what is over use of it?

My personal complexes are open for discussion,  I'd like that in the context
of the discussion of the listowner roles.  I am raising the question here,
not taking action, the situation remains transparent, so that should i ever
need to exclude someone from the list it is with some shared consciousness.

I would not even raise these matters in some lists, it would just be
"process mess" that may not be related to the task, here to discuss these
matters is on topic.

The listowner role has been likened to the role of an inn keeper.  There
would need to be heaps of discretion on the one hand, and on the other if
someone was a prowler, or doing illegal or unethical things in the inn then
some action is required.  It is best if the rules are clearly stated...
"people under the age of 20 will not be served liquor" etc.

The analogy breaks down in that this is not an inn and we do reflect
together on the "rules" and our roles.  The role of 'host' at a wedding is
different from on at a children's party.

~~~

There is a personal side to it all of course... I have a sense that the
sharp spots in the 'temenos' that you sense relate to the way i host this
environment... that would bring both our complexes into play, no?


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:23:11 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
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Walter Logeman wrote:
      quoting Nancy
> > Then I
> > was writing to this list recently about 'our shared
> > temenos' the image that came into my mind was of such a
> > vas with sharp shards of glass melted to the inner
> > surface.  Thus in response to your question I found I was
> > perceiving our vas as 'safe from outside' but a place
> > where one had to move carefully to avoid getting 'cut' on
> > the inside.
>
And then Walter (not Nancy) wrote: An awful place to be really!

> I do love it that we share these images of
> this forum like this, I think it reveals how the psyche works in cyberspace
> (much like elsewhere).  I can see that your shards are not all that
> different from the old smouldering fires in the field that I mention, but
> much more *acute*, and severe... and they may relate to dangers that do not
> exist for me here but they do for you.
>
N: Hmmm.  I feel that I just got too close to one of those 'shards'
(which
incidentally were transfered from the poetry group there used to
describe
bits of moonlight on water between lily pads.  I wanted the edges
blunted in the poem.)
    Now why were you 'fires' in the distance and my 'shards' in the
vessel?
Could it have anything to do with 'owning one's own imagry and fears'?

> You mentioned that on a list you were on some things could not be expressed
> in the group, I responded:
>
> > > Why do you say can't?
>
> You go on to say:
>
> > N: I was speaking of a poetry group which has as members
> > some pretty influential poets in 'my little pond'.  I felt
> > they 'used' their 'positions' (there had not actual power as
> > list-owners or moderators) to be unnecessarily harsh in
> > criticism and authoritarian and that it was detrimental to a
> > potential playful group spirit as well as creative
> > spontaneity of individuals. Some of them were also editors
> > of their own journals.  I was new to the group and working
> > slowly to remedy the situation.  It wasn't in out best
> > interest publication-wise to go openly head to head with
> > them.  There was a fair amount of 'back-channelling' while I
> > came to understand the situation.  No flames or back-biting
> > particularly, just straight-forward communication. Perhaps
> > this has similarities to your psycho-drama organizational
> > challenges? I'm pretty content with the way the poetry group
> > has resolved itself at the moment.
>
> Yes I see.  The 'power' there is not embedded in the software as such or
> 'cybersomatic' (if you excuse my use of what I think is a wonderful word,
> means we can talk of actual power here without it being physical power!).
> Nor is it specified in the charter (legal power?), it is the result of the
> ethos and culture of the group, which is related to the social position in
> rl. Powerful forces indeed ...
>
> Nancy, I am content to attend to these questions... they go deeply into what
> we are about with our explorations.  Right now I am thinking about your
> shards here... being inside a vessel with such sharp edges must be awful!

N: Not so much 'awful' as calling for some care in thought and movement,
perhaps a bit more wariness than I'm prefer.  It's a sizable vessel
(more
so when I think of all the lurkers quietly contained.)  It's just a
matter
of not brushing against the sides and if I do so accidentally yelling
'ouch'.
After all if it gets too 'awful' I know the way out or into 'lurkdom'.

> I
> do have some inkling as to how they appear there.  How can we attend to
> them, or is that, as it is on the other list curtailed by various 'power'
> situations?  Or is it as Dan said too personal for this space?
>
> Walter

N: Walter, I was asking you if I had understood your questions
accurately
enough to have addressed them.
  Which of you wrote this post?  The therapist, list owner, participant,
big brother...?
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Apr 1999 07:45:54 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Heidegger Quote
In-Reply-To:  <071A2DC9E07FD211A27500805F9F548925D3B5@KG-EX01>
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Dan, Philip,

  Philip wrote in:       Re: Jung
  Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:18:10 -0500


> I suspect that the quote from Heidegger may be from his book "Poetry,
> Language and Thought".  I'm not entirely sure, but it's possible.  I'll have
> to dig out my copy of it & re-read it.  It's interesting that you mention
> him anyway, because I've wanted to return to his writings since I recently
> came across Henry Corbin's work on presence and the angelic function of
> beings.  Hope that helps...


I have asked my source and have come up with this:

"... a good book that overviews his work- George Steiner - Heidegger -
Fontana Press 1992 (second edition) I bought it in London, so am not sure if
you can get it here."

But you can get it here :-)

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0226772322/psybernbooksinasA/>


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:32:22 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
In-Reply-To:  <37079FFF.5AC6DA9D@negia.net>
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Nancy,

> N: Hmmm.  I feel that I just got too close to one of those
> 'shards' (which incidentally were transfered from the
> poetry group there used to describe bits of moonlight
> on water between lily pads.  I wanted the edges
> blunted in the poem.)

Did you get to close right now in the midst of this conversation?  Is the
thing that those 'shards' do happening in our exchange of posts?  If so,
what is it about me?  If not, when did you get too close?

>     Now why were you 'fires' in the distance and my 'shards' in the
> vessel?

I don't know about your shards, my fires relate to more difficult times in
Psyber-L, and perhaps to difficulties that might be still around, but well
hidden, that I guess is a fear of sorts.  I am not really afraid, as i feel
ready for what may surface ...

> Could it have anything to do with 'owning one's own imagry and fears'?

Could you say more about this, I am interested.  I will say what it brings
forth in me, but that may not really be what you are suggesting.  Are you
saying that the shards, being closer, are evident because you are owning
your fears, and that I am not, and hence the painful stuff is more distant,
as with one who is removed from his feelings?  Perhaps I am... we never
really know that ourselves, I don't have that sense.  I have a sense of
unknowing about the non-posters here, there is an uneasiness...

I have a strong belief, knowledge of?, the 'objective psyche', what i mean
is that fires, and shards could well refer to something that is present here
for others, that it is not entirely personal, that collectively we can name
the something collective, objective, even though we are speaking about the
landscape of a virtual place.

I say virtual, and it is so clear that we are in a virtual place, but that
makes it all the more obvious that in therapy, in the world, there is also a
virtuality, that is best described metaphorically, but can be objective...

Foolish thoughts perhaps?  I feel ill with the shards and flames I feel in
the bombings, they don't feel distant at all, and I feel sickened...
impotent.

Are there people on this list from the Balkans, from war zones anywhere? Is
it all a war zone?  I am in a war zone, I feel the threats of bombs but here
they are metaphorical  (here on this occasion refers to a virtual New
Zealand!  (I often use here, to refer to Psyber-L.) How does the war in the
world come in here (psyberspace)?

I am conscious that I get a lot news via the internet, I hardly watch tv.  I
read the Red Rock Eater News!  I am on a Kosovo discussion list.  I am aware
of the American presence in Psyber-L, I am aware that Dan has joined and is
interested in Jung and politics.  I am scared that we might have war here!
about politics, and war!

I was born in an occupied country, Amsterdam 1944.  We went to Australia in
1952, not refugees in a literal sense, but getting away from the horror was
on my parent's agenda, protecting their children by going far away.  I think
the ambiance of war came with them and is in me.


I (Walter) wrote:

> > Nancy, I am content to attend to these questions... they go deeply into what
> > we are about with our explorations.  Right now I am thinking about your
> > shards here... being inside a vessel with such sharp edges must be awful!

Nancy replied:

> N: Not so much 'awful' as calling for some care in
> thought and movement,  perhaps a bit more wariness
> than I'm prefer.  It's a sizable vessel  (more
> so when I think of all the lurkers quietly contained.)
> It's just a matter of not brushing against the sides
> and if I do so accidentally yelling 'ouch'.
> After all if it gets too 'awful' I know the way out
> or into 'lurkdom'.

Like treading on eggshells? moving carefully, so as not to ... ?

Could it also be that the 'safer' it gets, the more we attend the more
painful it can be?  That even though this is not personal therapy ...
exploring the psyche leads to seeing that the psyche is full of trials and
... WAR!  We don't want it, but it is always possible.  Here in cyberspace
we can always stumble across one of the hot topics, politics, pedophiles,
gender, recovered memories...  we can call them off limits, and off topic,
yet here (Psyber-L) they are not "the" topic, yet they must be seen as part
of the stuff that makes up the psyche in cyberspace.

Nancy:
>   Which of you wrote this post?  The therapist, list owner, participant,
> big brother...?

Friend.  Explorer. Learner. Participant.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Apr 1999 05:22:03 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Individual-community shadow
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Walter, all,
Something occurred to me this morning when I read your post and you
mention the people on the list who do not post. They are in fact (in
virtual?) in the shadow...they can't be seen, aren't known, stay in the
dark without coming forth. I have no pithy insights or conclusions just
the observation that the majority of this list is "in the shadow" ,
unknown. When you mentioned your list of just four people I have to admit
I was envious. Envious because I like this medium but am not particularly
satisfied with the list format - partly because of the "built-in" ???
shadow I guess. It has something to do with writing/communicating. It's
very easy to express oneself sitting quietly at home in the morning (or
whenever) but there is always this built in caution - who's reading it -
what might be done with it - how personal can one afford to be - how
revealing - the list format provides a false sense of security I think -
at least for me. I cycle around the feeling of unsubscribing to this list
periodically - I already have once - mostly because I find it somehow
unsatisfying communication - threads that go nowhere - communications
that end abruptly - long silences, etc etc.

Anyway just some thoughts...

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:09:27 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Individual-community shadow
In-Reply-To:  <370B4DEB.579D@coinet.com>
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Cheryl,

> It's
> very easy to express oneself sitting quietly at home in the morning (or
> whenever) but there is always this built in caution - who's reading it -
> what might be done with it - how personal can one afford to be - how
> revealing - the list format provides a false sense of security I think -
> at least for me. I cycle around the feeling of unsubscribing to this list
> periodically - I already have once - mostly because I find it somehow
> unsatisfying communication - threads that go nowhere - communications
> that end abruptly - long silences, etc etc.

A strange business indeed ... I'd find it very sad to see you go yet
understand it completely.  What struck me about the passage i have quoted
here is that it capture something of the very mystery of our (my) psyche.  I
find that I can and will speculate into those silences and unknowns and
nowheres just to see myself ...

There is another side to this too.  In this huge Internet wave sweeping us,
how can we create, find, harness, the appropriate-to-media way of "attending
to the psyche" ... it is this question which just burns in me.  Perhaps we
can spawn a few 4 people groups ... there is nothing to stop anyone doing
that.  What inhibits me from doing that as in a public way or as part of my
psybernet project (whatever it is these days) is, one, that somehow
additional closed groups in addition to this one, create an us and them
situation with respect to this one. Two, my day job.

What is this psybernet thing i have in my head...

I think of the successful and interesting internet phenomena ... ebay,
Amazon, Excite and so on.  Psybernet was here on the web before them, with a
notion that whatever it would be that the net could do that Freud Jung
Hillman, Spring Publications, Moreno could do with the psyche in their
respective media, Psybernet would do it in Psyberspace!  I was that
ambitious.  I still am!  I think in many ways we are on the right track, but
there is something dreadfully missing... I am here in the middle of the
night thinking about these things, and need to work hard in the morning
face-to-face!

Does anyone have any idea what I am on about?

A spin off from my search and efforts is that i know a lot, from sometimes
bitter experience, about the varieties of online interaction.  I have and
will put that to some interesting use in consulting and in writing.

I still have a dream, a yearning...  I still have some plans too... a public
list on my mind, but i am not sure why I would want that, what is the larger
picture?  For all that I meditate on it, I even drew up a web page as a sort
of sketch, Ill post it here, but please keep it confidential, it is a mockup
only, a way of thinking out loud:

<http://www.psybernet.co.nz/imagination.htm>

Without any of these grand transformations, I find simply *being* here a
soulful thing.  Cheryl, Nancy, JoAnne, Stephen, Judith, plus esteemed new
people, plus occasional posters, plus some others still on the list, who
rarely post, but whose names are very familiar on that list, and then the
smallish group who I don't know at all, darker mysteries... Just to hear
about spring coming in the northern hemisphere, your easter morning coffee
Cheryl, to hear about Nancy's date which originated with the waiting room
meeting, to watch our sometimes awkward dance... i find it ok.  Nothing more
is needed to make this ok, it is just that there is *also* a "dreadful
missing" thing for me.

Again, the net mirrors something in me perhaps...



Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:42:41 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
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Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Nancy,
>
> > N: Hmmm.  I feel that I just got too close to one of those
> > 'shards' (which incidentally were transfered from the
> > poetry group there used to describe bits of moonlight
> > on water between lily pads.  I wanted the edges
> > blunted in the poem.)
>
> Did you get to close right now in the midst of this conversation?  Is the
> thing that those 'shards' do happening in our exchange of posts?  If so,
> what is it about me?  If not, when did you get too close?

N: It was in one of your recent posts to me which I now seem to have
some difficulty in finding.  You didn't snip it from the beginning of
this that
you are answering?

>
> >     Now why were you 'fires' in the distance and my 'shards' in the
> > vessel?
>
> I don't know about your shards, my fires relate to more difficult times in
> Psyber-L, and perhaps to difficulties that might be still around, but well
> hidden, that I guess is a fear of sorts.  I am not really afraid, as i feel
> ready for what may surface ...

N: Then, like my shard, they are perhaps in this vessel?
>
> > Could it have anything to do with 'owning one's own imagry and fears'?
>
> Could you say more about this, I am interested.  I will say what it brings
> forth in me, but that may not really be what you are suggesting.  Are you
> saying that the shards, being closer, are evident because you are owning
> your fears, and that I am not, and hence the painful stuff is more distant,
> as with one who is removed from his feelings?  Perhaps I am... we never
> really know that ourselves, I don't have that sense.  I have a sense of
> unknowing about the non-posters here, there is an uneasiness...

N: Yes.  I am suggesting such a possibility.  If you apprehend possible
firer
(current) and I apprehend (current) shards then for us as regards this
list
temenos they are both/each withing the vessel we apprehend.
  My 'shards' have to do with this temenos, not the Balkans, I
think...they
feel like potential threats to my feelings of well-being and/or
self-esteem...
Perhaps I can say this because of the poetry list I spoke of before
where the
separation between person and Balkan is clearer.  They have been waging
a
disagreement about whether Kosovo if a fit subject for poetry or not (a
non-
issue to me, as anything should be an ok subject for poetry, in my mind.
 Still this feels a lot more esoteric there than here...to you.  Both
Julienne and Anita are on another list I'm on.  Both say they are too
tuner
to Internet discussion of Kosovo to participate much.  If I lived in
Finland
this would be true of me also, I think perhaps.
>
> I have a strong belief, knowledge of?, the 'objective psyche', what i mean
> is that fires, and shards could well refer to something that is present here
> for others, that it is not entirely personal, that collectively we can name
> the something collective, objective, even though we are speaking about the
> landscape of a virtual place.
>
> I say virtual, and it is so clear that we are in a virtual place, but that
> makes it all the more obvious that in therapy, in the world, there is also a
> virtuality, that is best described metaphorically, but can be objective...

N: Or at least a sharing of a communal subjective perception...
>
> Foolish thoughts perhaps?  I feel ill with the shards and flames I feel in
> the bombings, they don't feel distant at all, and I feel sickened...
> impotent.
>
> Are there people on this list from the Balkans, from war zones anywhere? Is
> it all a war zone?  I am in a war zone, I feel the threats of bombs but here
> they are metaphorical  (here on this occasion refers to a virtual New
> Zealand!  (I often use here, to refer to Psyber-L.) How does the war in the
> world come in here (psyberspace)?

N: Now this is reminding me of Jung's dream of rivers of blood just
before
WW II.  He felt them to be a forecast of the war, but that has been
dispute
by people since who suggest they may have been of something more
personal.
>
> I am conscious that I get a lot news via the internet, I hardly watch tv.  I
> read the Red Rock Eater News!  I am on a Kosovo discussion list.  I am aware
> of the American presence in Psyber-L, I am aware that Dan has joined and is
> interested in Jung and politics.  I am scared that we might have war here!
> about politics, and war!
>
> I was born in an occupied country, Amsterdam 1944.  We went to Australia in
> 1952, not refugees in a literal sense, but getting away from the horror was
> on my parent's agenda, protecting their children by going far away.  I think
> the ambiance of war came with them and is in me.

N: I doubt that there are many of us who have grown up untouched by war,
though I see that the involvement would differ.
   I wonder if you had the same sense of personal threath during...
ummm...
Desert Storm, the Falklands, etc.
>
> I (Walter) wrote:
>
> > > Nancy, I am content to attend to these questions... they go deeply into what
> > > we are about with our explorations.  Right now I am thinking about your
> > > shards here... being inside a vessel with such sharp edges must be awful!
>
> Nancy replied:
>
> > N: Not so much 'awful' as calling for some care in
> > thought and movement,  perhaps a bit more wariness
> > than I'm prefer.  It's a sizable vessel  (more
> > so when I think of all the lurkers quietly contained.)
> > It's just a matter of not brushing against the sides
> > and if I do so accidentally yelling 'ouch'.
> > After all if it gets too 'awful' I know the way out
> > or into 'lurkdom'.
>
> Like treading on eggshells? moving carefully, so as not to ... ?
>
> Could it also be that the 'safer' it gets, the more we attend the more
> painful it can be?

N: This doesn't fit for me as I don't feel I have been as 'present' in
this
group as I was last summer.

  That even though this is not personal therapy ...

N: Therapy is a potential in every situation.  My lst analyst (not
Jungian)
said I took too many things personally in my live.  I asked where I
should
take things personally.  He said in there (referring to that therapy
room)
God help me if I'd followed his advise.  I'd have certainly been 'shunk'
to
invisibility.

> exploring the psyche leads to seeing that the psyche is full of trials and
> ... WAR!  We don't want it, but it is always possible.  Here in cyberspace
> we can always stumble across one of the hot topics, politics, pedophiles,
> gender, recovered memories...  we can call them off limits, and off topic,
> yet here (Psyber-L) they are not "the" topic, yet they must be seen as part
> of the stuff that makes up the psyche in cyberspace.

N: Nothing should be 'off limits' as a topic.  It is the presentation
and the
form the interaction takes that bears watch (IMO).
>
> Nancy:
> >   Which of you wrote this post?  The therapist, list owner, participant,
> > big brother...?
>
> Friend.  Explorer. Learner. Participant.

N: This post sounds more like that than the original one did to me.
>
> Walter

Nancy
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:36:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      spokes and wheels
In-Reply-To:  <37030634.167444459@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

(I'm getting back to it, Walter. I've been somewhat drawn away from P-L as
world events have gained my dim attentions. There is a synchronous aspect
to this nonetheless, as I note the lack of foolishness and news from fools
whereas absurd *spins* rule our American propaganda day. However, that
said, this has led to me the web with its (usually) barely mediated
information flow, although it is organized archetypically of course! Some
fool's news was found... btw, the Balkans are of great interest to me,
partly because of how that part of the world figures into the histories of
religion and heresy.)

***


Walter writes,

>Stephen has responded to this with his analogy of the spokes and the
>wheel, >which I don't fully grasp yet. I will, I will!

Judith and I have done this exercise ("Target Practice") with groups of
people: on an easel is a newsprint pad upon which is drawn a circle. We ask
the individuals in the group to respond in rapid fire fashion and identify
(for example) what are their core concerns and/or values and to also intuit
as they do so, how far each successive answer is from the center of the
circle, which is made to represent the values/concerns  closest to the
center of each group member's regard.

We set up, then, a target with a built-in depiction of individual's
concerns, that in turn becomes a bigger picture of the group's concerns as
sympathies and antipathies between individual values become clarified. Not
surpisingly, since almost any statement of value supposes itself on a
continuum and also as a constituent of a polarity, there comes about the
spokes of the wheel. So, picture a group as containing all the individually
contributed aspects expressing polarities as well as consisting of
collective aspects similarly depicted as polarities.

A more general and honored spoke and wheel metaphor comes about from the
age old idea that each believer is being drawn to the center, or his or her
spiritual home, on a unique God-given path, articulated by the spoke each
believer may travel.

Finally, the same metaphor comes into play if we talk about a unique path
of individuation, or, alternately, the path down which we travel to realize
who it is we really are.

***

By the way, it's an interesting exercise also to create an instant picture
of where one is at and then ask a thought problem-type query of one's self:
"If this is where I am at, and I draw a line from these various points
outward, at what or where do those lines terminate. ...playing with the
spokes as it were.  For example, if I'm "at confidance" then the opposition
would describe a line between confidance and, say, insecurity. The thought
problem would be to ask, "At what or where does the line made from
confidance in me, here and now, terminate in insecurity?

(I know, 'why bother?') These are different ways of getting at the
dynamicism and praxis of self and collective systems.

Interesting question: what are your polarities?
***

brooking foolishness to follow,
thx for being patient,

Stephen
ps. >The *pattern* is suddenly present, everywhere, and the words fit. I
guess Cyberspace is such a word, the >word almost creates the phenomena.

This made me think of some sort of connotational waveform collapsing.

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:55:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: brooking foolishness 1
In-Reply-To:  <37030634.167444459@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, all,

youth / age.
eye / ear
create / perceive

>An incurable Romantic?

motion / spirit

"the nurse, The guide, the guardian of my heart, and soul
Of all my moral being."

Over the top, yes, but 'Tintern Abbey' is among the very greatest romantic
poems..

***

"The fool of my heart". ???

(Several thoughts on news delivered by fools.) The connection between
romantic notions and foolishness seems evident to me, Walter. Picture two
people sitting on a hillside watching a sunset and one thought balloon
says, "Magnificent, beyond words!" and the other person's thought balloon
says "Fascinating! Sunsets created by the fractured and prismatic
variations beween light rays and reflective and absorbant particles and
molecules of water vapor and gases."

Think of the varieties of foolishness: at one extreme is the unmediated
foolishness of the person who speaks the truth but with no intention to do
so. They cannot help themselves. They're expressions are immediate, such as
those of children, who really do say the strangest, and often, the most
*true* of things. This is the story of the emperor with no clothes, right?

On the other end is the symbol of divine foolishness at a high level of
eros: the crone and senex as wizard or teacher or, in our age, 'Yoda'. The
clue-giver who understands the key element of progress is information made
in exacting measure to where the person is really at and where it is they
*must* go. (Thus connecting up with who they really are.) This wise person
often strikes us as unassailable, because they have a mixture of
experience, practicality, and a laser-like intuitive sensibility that
allows them to understand what is necessary. And, such wise persons always
seem to be fully incarnated. Over the top perhaps, but also sunk deeply
into the ground; spirit fully ensouled.

***

But isn't the role of giving advice or giving our views with respect to
another person's "predicament" a role which demands we somehow grasp what
will do the trick? We may be then in the role of the jester, the only
person who may speak the truth, but, nonetheless, are we not most inspired
to pick the wise end of the continuum, instead of the childish? How do we
assist another person supporting their travel down the spoke of their own
whotheyreallyareness?

***

"These are questions of measurement and mediation."

World's face embroidered
     with playfulness:
turn away and sew up
     your own affairs.
Unless you turn body and soul
     to  gnosis and devotion
those two uncaring frauds
     will cheat you blind.
Circling. . .circling -
     close the circle - die,
If you do not start NOW
     when will you start?
Screwing around, ballgames
     injustice, backbiting, theft
lying, conning, putting it on,
     pride, impudence and slander:
demongames
     set-ups for the Fire -
get out of them
     heave them overboard.
At school they force knowledge
     down your throat;
ignorance sings harmonies with you
     when you harmonize with 'Nature'.

***

regards,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Apr 1999 04:22:04 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: spokes and wheels
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a01b331605284cf@[207.54.160.176]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen,


> (I'm getting back to it, Walter. I've been somewhat drawn away from P-L as
> world events have gained my dim attentions. There is a synchronous aspect
> to this nonetheless, as I note the lack of foolishness and news from fools
> whereas absurd *spins* rule our American propaganda day. However, that
> said, this has led to me the web with its (usually) barely mediated
> information flow, although it is organized archetypically of course! Some
> fool's news was found... btw, the Balkans are of great interest to me,
> partly because of how that part of the world figures into the histories of
> religion and heresy.)

Dim attention, feels the most i can ever give to such things... partly
because to *know* what is going on is so hard, partly because when I think I
know, and go with the knowing there is so little i can do and the impotence
hurts, I feel the urge for participating in collective action, needed to
make a difference, yet i hate adhering to a party line, I am too liberal,
partly because perception of world events is so coloured by my inner turmoil
so that all I have is demon doubt.  I have some clarity too, I'll reply to
Nancy's post.

Stephen, can you say more about the balkans, religion, the fruits of dim
attention?  Do you have personal connections with people there?  I would
love it if in a place like this we had already build strong connections with
people in the balkans who share a perspective on the soul.

Archetypal order on the Internet, that makes my day! Of course.  Actually
you said archetypically *mediated* which is interesting.  Your words give
rise to an image in me where the wires and screens and servers and keyboards
make up one medium, the flesh, material base, soma of cyberspace but that
all of those, including the software and search engines are all mediated by
higher powers!

Makes more sense then to entertain Giegerich's thesis that maximisation of
profit and globalisation are Archetypes who are having a ball!  Perhaps they
are nothing new, I wonder if we know these forces by other names?  Have they
always been around?

> ***

> Judith and I have done this exercise ("Target Practice") with groups of
> people: on an easel is a newsprint pad upon which is drawn a circle. We ask
> the individuals in the group to respond in rapid fire fashion and identify
> (for example) what are their core concerns and/or values and to also intuit
> as they do so, how far each successive answer is from the center of the
> circle, which is made to represent the values/concerns  closest to the
> center of each group member's regard.



            depth - meaning


  o centre        love - acceptance


            contribution - creativity


> We set up, then, a target with a built-in depiction of individual's
> concerns, that in turn becomes a bigger picture of the group's concerns as
> sympathies and antipathies between individual values become clarified. Not
> surpisingly, since almost any statement of value supposes itself on a
> continuum and also as a constituent of a polarity, there comes about the
> spokes of the wheel. So, picture a group as containing all the individually
> contributed aspects expressing polarities as well as consisting of
> collective aspects similarly depicted as polarities.

So the collective is the sum of the individual contributions?  Or is there a
shared creation of a collective image.  Nancy & I in comparing our image of
Psyber-L's container, with fires and shards for example, immediately builds
something more than the parts... even the alchemical nature of it all is
hovering around almost by accident ... the shards melted into the  vessel,
the glowing fires... I hope the image can build with something from others.

I imagine that in the groups you conduct with Judith, that something similar
would happen to create the collective wheel?


> A more general and honored spoke and wheel metaphor comes about from the
> age old idea that each believer is being drawn to the center, or his or her
> spiritual home, on a unique God-given path, articulated by the spoke each
> believer may travel.

I have encountered reductionists lately and it is infuriating.  Of course
this wheel makes sense... I can feel the pull, the unique made-for-me pull
towards something, a small no here a big No there, a tug here, a yes there,
a Yes! all moving towards something, something bigger than me... something
that makes sense if only I could grasp it...

> Finally, the same metaphor comes into play if we talk about a unique path
> of individuation, or, alternately, the path down which we travel to realize
> who it is we really are.

Yes.

> ***



all for now,


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Apr 1999 18:14:47 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
In-Reply-To:  <370B9911.2EBF005@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:42 7.4.1999 -0700, Nancy Smith wrote:

>Both Julienne and Anita are on another list I'm on.  Both say >they are
too tuner Internet discussion of Kosovo to participate >much. If I lived in
Finland this would be true of me also, I >think perhaps.

Not only too tuner Internet discussion, Nancy, but also making with Finnish
writers statements concerning Finland's official  refugee politics, writing
about the matter, and  seeing nigthly dreams about Kosovo. Kosovo hurts me,
and I take the crisis very subjectively, because my father was a refugee in
Finland, and  is a hard country to live in exile. I know it as a daughter
of the refugee.

Maybe the Psyche is a vagabond wandering in cyberspace from lists to lists.
 All the while I meet familiar names. Cyberspace is so small! I was
suprised when I had just landed on the Jung-list, and  Julienne was there.
I checked the members, and find  also another persons I've met on the
Psyber-l. There (on the Jung-l)folks were discussing about faith, God and
unconditional love - just now when there is a war in Balkan, or "a
humanitarian intervetion", as Nato calls it. A very nice
definition of a war!

On conclusion a little true story about uncondiotional love. I've clipped
it from the Nettime-list.

Cheers
Anita

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


BISCUITS AND BROTHERLY LOVE

Kosovo refugees streaming over the Albanian border near Kukes are being met
by two aid workers distributing biscuits and two Italian Jehovah's
Witnesses urging them to love each other.


The two aid workers on the border are both Albanians working for Catholic
Relief Services (CRS). They are handing out boxes of biscuits, each
containing 20 packets, to the refugees, many of whom had not eaten since
fleeing their homes. They also have two barrels of water.

Standing 50 feet from the aid workers, two Italian Jehovah's Witnesses were
offering the latest arrivals spiritual solace. They were handing out fliers
in Albanian saying "We have to learn how to love each other" and posing the
question "Does everybody understand this?" The words were set over a
picture of the smiling faces of young people of every ethnic and racial
background, all apparently living in some sort of tropical harmony,
complete with palm trees.

The Jehovah's Witnesses, who were dressed in two-piece suits and sparkling
white over-coats, had not come to Kukes to proselytize, but to meet their
co-religionists from the Kosovo towns of Djakovica and Pristina whom they
hoped to find among the refugees. They decided that since they were there,
they should make the most of the situation and distribute the fliers.




anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:22:45 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  Wasn't your father coming from close to that area when he arrived in
Pinland, or do I have it mixed.
  You did not mention that I had switched the conversation on the other
list
from prediphilia to Unconditional love.
  It seems that life is nothing if not paradoxical.  You have managed to
keep
it from making you bitter, I think (?)
  I wonder what is the general tenor of your Kosovo dreams?

   Sincerely, Nancy

Anita Konkka wrote:
>
> At 10:42 7.4.1999 -0700, Nancy Smith wrote:
>
> >Both Julienne and Anita are on another list I'm on.  Both say >they are
> too tuned in to Internet discussion of Kosovo to participate >much. If I lived in
> Finland this would be true of me also, I >think perhaps.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:04:17 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.6.32.19990410181447.00838460@megabaud.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anita, Nancy,

Anita wrote,
> Maybe the Psyche is a vagabond wandering in cyberspace from lists to lists.
>  All the while I meet familiar names. Cyberspace is so small! I was
> suprised when I had just landed on the Jung-list, and  Julienne was there.
> I checked the members, and find  also another persons I've met on the
> Psyber-l. There (on the Jung-l)folks were discussing about faith, God and
> unconditional love - just now when there is a war in Balkan, or "a
> humanitarian intervetion", as Nato calls it. A very nice
> definition of a war!

The sliver of psyche in cyberspace probably reflects the psyche in the world
and it is a mad dog of war... we seem to be never rid of the familiar
insanity.  That is what hurts, that all the efforts of my parents, and my
generation when we were against the bomb, against the wars has made no
difference...

You have been writing...

> making with Finnish
> writers statements concerning Finland's official  refugee politics, writing
> about the matter,

please say if it is on the web I would appreciate reading it.  I have not
found a way to be active at all...

I know it is driven somehow by capitalism, imperialism, the need for global
domination for markets... I read informative stuff on nettime and by
Chomski:

http://www.zmag.org/zmag/chomreplieskos.htm

again, this page is constantly updated:
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/kosovo.htm


Hear stories that these bombs will leave uranium deposits that will lead to
birth defects...

Behind the political and economic drives are shadows... flaws in the psyche,
can we heal that tear?

Is even thinking about the psychology of this a symptom of the evil
hippocrates you quoted Anita?  That is not my aim...

I am wishing the pen was mightier than the sword. That even here by
attending to the collective psyche we could make a difference... or must it
be in deeds?  I don't think of the archetypes and our collective soul as
some sentimental thing separate from the killing machine, not separate from
us here...

I have a sense of being stunned by it and that perhaps others feel that
too...

Nancy, you asked Anita to write about her Kosovo dreams.  I also look
forward to hearing them.  I had one recently that tied in, though
indirectly... perhaps it is through sharing dreams that we can heal
something?

Here is mine...

There was a large convention in NZ run by men in suits to promote a new
software product ? Windows 2000?.  They were the Evil Empire ... IBM for
some reason, not Microsoft? To demonstrate it they divided the men from the
women, and put the women in a "safe" area, which was really a prison with a
high fence.  A very good friend and colleague of mine was hired by the Evil
Empire to run a workshop for the women.  The women were all "feminine" in a
motherly sort of way, not feminist, they knitted and sewed while listening
to the speeches.  Some were older women and had baskets of sandwiches etc.
All very home made, no fast foods. My friend was unaware that she was
working for an evil force, and i had to get to her to explain it to her.
Before i could do it, I was taken away by two men in suits. They called me
Walter... I was very surprised, "how do you know my name?" I asked. They
knew everything and had been monitoring all my emails... seeing them as
subversive... pro open source software, and critical of the global force
they represented, I was scared and disturbed and woke up.


Walter









__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:42:37 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:
".... perhaps it is through sharing dreams that we can heal
> something?
>
N: As medial types I hope (and believe) that Jung was right in writing
that
the future depends on us extending the Collective Consciousness enough
to
overcome old patterns of solution through aggession and domination.

> Here is mine...
>
> There was a large convention in NZ run by men in suits to promote a new
> software product ? Windows 2000?.  They were the Evil Empire ... IBM for
> some reason, not Microsoft? To demonstrate it they divided the men from the
> women, and put the women in a "safe" area, which was really a prison with a
> high fence.  A very good friend and colleague of mine was hired by the Evil
> Empire to run a workshop for the women.  The women were all "feminine" in a
> motherly sort of way, not feminist, they knitted and sewed while listening
> to the speeches.  Some were older women and had baskets of sandwiches etc.
> All very home made, no fast foods. My friend was unaware that she was
> working for an evil force, and i had to get to her to explain it to her.
> Before i could do it, I was taken away by two men in suits. They called me
> Walter... I was very surprised, "how do you know my name?" I asked. They
> knew everything and had been monitoring all my emails... seeing them as
> subversive... pro open source software, and critical of the global force
> they represented, I was scared and disturbed and woke up.
>
> Walter
>
N: Thanks for sharing this, Walter.  My observations are pretty
superficial,
I expect but I will note them anyway.  I think 'men in suits' have come
to
symbolize 'Darth Vadar' types (the absernt father, organization man)
   I wonder if it is an expension of 'us' thinking we can soften this
aspect
of the Col. Unc. to suppose we might be endangered by them.  'They' knew
your
name.
   Software seems to go with the nurturent feminine aspect which has
been
imprisioned.

   I realized yesterday that I was watching M*A*S*H reruns as a sort of
defense against the horrors in Kosovo.  It seems to exemplify a sort of
(usually) gentle humor and 'inanity' in the face or war.  Something like
your 'knitting' women who kow that when there is little they can do to
stop
attrocities, the that little is what they must do with patience.

Blessings, Nancy

 __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:18:05 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Globalisation
In-Reply-To:  <3712f00e.5376081@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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All,

Giddens & Globalisation
Reith Lectures 1999.

I found the (first) one yesterday interesting.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/reith_99/default.htm

The Real Audio and txt are there.

I got it off the net last night and recorded it on a tape, great to do, and
listened to it today while walking to work and back & cooking tea.
Enjoyable, disturbing lecture.

I grew uncomfortable as no one mentioned the war in Yugoslavia... I have a
sense war is counter the globalisation conception.  Nationhood, boundaries,
imperialism - imperialism was of course the older name for something like
globalisation... is Giddens obscuring the essentially economically
determined tyrannical trend with incidental cultural fluff... I have no
idea.  Perhaps the war will come up in the next lectures, as they happen
around the world.

There are psychological issues here, Giddens speaks of globalisation
"inside" and addresses the relationship between Globalisation and the will.
Is it just a "force, like the forces of nature" somehow "outside" of us? ...


I find it interesting in connection with Wolfgang Giegerich's article... see
next post.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:54:57 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Globalisation
In-Reply-To:  <371409ea.11012031@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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All,

I wrote:

> There are psychological issues here, Giddens speaks of globalisation
> "inside" and addresses the relationship between Globalisation and the will.
> Is it just a "force, like the forces of nature" somehow "outside" of us? ...

> I find it interesting in connection with Wolfgang Giegerich's article... see
> next post.

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:58:15 -0600, Robert Longpre
in Re: shrinks: alerted us to the work of Wolfgang Giegerich.

http://www.cgjung.com/giegerich1.html

The Opposition of 'Individual' and 'Collective'
- Psychology's Basic Fault:
Reflections On Today's Magnum Opus of the Soul*

WOLFGANG GIEGERICH

Reprinted [on the web] with the permission of the publisher from Harvest:
Journal for Jungian Studies, 1996. V. 42, No. 2, pp. 7-27.

|  Jung recovered for our time the notion of the magnum opus or the
|  symbolic life (about which he spoke to the Guild in 1939). He
|  recovered it through his study of historical soul processes, such
|  as those in the world of alchemy, and through his finding
|  parallel processes in the personal analysis of his analysands.
|  Because of this formal parallelism, Jung thought that the
|  development going on inside those modern individuals was the same
|  magnum opus. But I believe this was a mistake, a mistake
|  concerning the order of magnitude. Jung's newly recovered insight
|  into the reality called magnum opus is a precious notion, an
|  invaluable discovery. We should retain, it- but we should
|  withdraw the predicate 'magnum opus' from individual experience,
|  to which Jung had still assigned it. Individual experience of the
|  individuation process today no longer deserves this title. As
|  part of our strictly personal psychology, it may still be The
|  Work, the opus, rather than just an ego activity, but it
|  certainly does not qualify as the Great Work. It is opus parvum,
|  the 'little work'. It is part of our personal psychology and thus
|  of an ultimately historical psychology. As such, it has both its
|  own dignity and importance, inasmuch as our caring for the past
|  we carry in us is always important, but its status is such that
|  it can no longer be considered 'magnum'. The true opus magnum of
|  today takes place in an entirely different arena, not in us as
|  individuals, but in the arena of world affairs, of global
|  competition, in the arena of the psychological District
|  Commissioner, who in our case, as we said, is the overwhelming
|  pull towards maximizing profit. The individual merely feels the
|  effects of the opus magnum as those of a blind fate, but remains
|  absolutely disconcerted, helpless, and dumbfounded as to what it
|  is that is happening to him and why.


I have had a good go at reading the articles and some of the archives of the
discussion, which i missed at the time. The work of Giegerich is interesting
to look at along side of the Reith lectures.

A passage from Jung comes to mind, quoted by Greg Mogenson in a reply to
Giegerich  which has had me thinking on the nature of the psyche:

~~~

|  In an interview given in the 1950's, Jung, speaking not as a
|  theologian but as a psychologist (even though he drew upon the
|  language of the theologian in characterizing the unconscious),
|  identifies God as whatever happens to us against our will:
|
|  To this day God is the name by which I
|  designate all things which cross my wilful
|  path violently and recklessly, all things
|  which upset my subjective views, plans and
|  intentions and change the course of my life
|  for better or worse.

http://www.cgjung.com/mogenson1.html

Response to Wolfgang Giegerich's
Reflections On Today's Magnum Opus of the Soul
by Greg Mogenson
Copyright 1998 Greg Mogenson. All rights reserved.

Greg Mogenson is a Jungian analyst practicing in London,
Ontario, Canada. He is the author of God Is a Trauma:
Vicarious Religion and Soul-Making and Greeting the Angels:
An Imaginal View of the Mourning Process.

~~~

Call it God, gods, archetypes, God-image, psyche, soul... I sense the
numinous in these violent tyrannical forces... they are bigger than us,
unknown, I suddenly grasp the notion of being God-fearing.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:11:30 GMT
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Jung-Seminars
In-Reply-To:  <37171a12.15147943@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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~quote~

Jung-Seminars

The Jung-Seminars
The Next Jung-Seminar
Andrew Samuels will be leading a seminar from May 15-20, 1999, on the
subject of his article, "Countertransference, the Imaginal World, and the
Politics of the Sublime." Dr. Samuels is Professor of Analytical psychology
at the University of Essex and Visiting Professor of Psychoanalytic Studies
at London University. He is a Jungian training analyst, lecturer and
political consultant. His books include Jung and the Post-Jungians, A
Critical Dictionary of Jungian Analysis, The Plural Psyche, and The
Political Psyche. In 2000 he will publish The Secret Life of Politics.

http://www.cgjung.com/jungsem.html

~end quote~

This time I want to sub to this, sounds interesting.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:18:10 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Globalisation
In-Reply-To:  <37171a12.15147943@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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Hi,

> http://www.cgjung.com/giegerich1.html
>
> The Opposition of 'Individual' and 'Collective'
> - Psychology's Basic Fault:
> Reflections On Today's Magnum Opus of the Soul*


Another quote from this paper, which I find resonating with Giddens:

~quote~

In such a context where the very goal of the process we find ourselves in is
objectively to render the human being, and individual identity as such,
metaphysically or logically redundant, the process of individuation has no
place. To continue to advocate it is the wrong move. It entirely misses the
point. The process of individuation is totally disconnected from what is
really going on. Not individuation, but globalization is the soul's magnum
opus of today. And globalization means the elimination of personal identity
as something in its own right and the logical subjugation of everything
individual under the one great abstract goal of profit maximization: profit
must increase, but I must decrease. The process of profit maximization
(together with the need for companies and individuals to stand up well in
global competition) brings about the subjection of all of life, indeed of
Being, under the logic of money.

Here it becomes necessary to remind you that with these statements I am not
giving you my program. I am not describing what I think would be good and
right and desirable and should be done. I am merely trying to formulate the
program or logic inherent in the powerful 'autonomous' movement of the soul.

~end quote~
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:27:31 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Soul
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Walter, all.
Re: the recent posts by Walter re: Jung etc. I want to say that I have
some problem with the use of the word 'soul' esp. the quote that spoke of
'the automomous movement of the soul' When people use the word 'soul' it
lulls them into thinking that whatever is happening is something noble,
and good and should therefore in some way be revered. I think it is
somewhat misleading to equate 'collective unconscious' with 'soul'.
Collective unconscious is so apt implying as it does all the base and
UNCONSCIOUS impulses, the movement of larger than life forces which may
not be so 'noble', perhaps even, as mentioned, evil. Perhaps I am
misunderstanding the way the words are being used here but I try to be
very careful about words since people fall so easily under their sway -
just think about 'the soul of the German people" as used in WWII.

Am I trying to sort out something that is already quite clear to others?

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:37:36 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
In-Reply-To:  <3712308D.833AEF9B@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi all,

some time ago Cheryl wrote, that she feels communication here somehow
unsatisfying:

 - threads that go nowhere - communications
   that end abruptly - long silences, etc etc.

Maybe the list shadow is in the sleeping mode, not active now. When someone
writes irritating posts,it awakes, energizes and revitilized the list.
Formerly, we had Julienne, Wilbur and  Void here. They were good projection
hooks, very energetic, dynamic and irritating. They activated the shadow
element in (almost)everybody, and inspired to write. But not all could bear
the activated shadow in themselves, it was too oppressive, and they
unsubbed. Now we are civilized and low-energized here, isn't true? I have
found on the Netdynam , and formerly on the Jung-Psych list, that whenever
somebody draws shadow projections on him- or herself, the energy bursts
out, and  the heaps of posts is following. Now the shadow has begun to
emerge on the Jung-l.

Walter, thanks for sharing your dream. It is interesting how Balkan  crisis
is mirroring in the dream-world. I saw some nights ago, that Hitler was in
my high-school. I had just viewed on TV a document about Milosevic. It was
told that he was a son of an orthodox priest, both his father and mother
were commited suicide. He was compared with Hitler.Formerly he was a hard
core communist. He was said to be without human feelings and he was
demonized completely in that document.
   I have read both  NATO-  and Yugoslavian  government bulletins, they are
full of shadow projections. The Bad is outside there, never here. Never in
us. Never in me! Although I know that Hitler of my dreams is just my own
shadow activated by Balkan crisis.

Nancy, you asked where my father was coming from. He was coming from
Russia, near St.Petersburg, where there a small Finnish-Ugrish folk,
Ingrians, lived. They dreamed of cultural autonomy, and was removed  from
that area to Siberia during the Stalin era.  After the revulution my father
and uncle were recuited to the Northen Ingermanlandian liberation army.
Father was then only fifteen years old. He was wounded, my uncle was
killed. The family escaped from Russia to Finland. On the run, near
Finland's border, my aunt, then seven years old, fell seriously ill and
died.  When the conditions were calmed down, the family returned to home,
besides my father, he didn't dare, because he had fought in the white army.
After some years the family was banished to Siberia and my grandfather was
died there. Oddly enough, but my grandmother didn't become embittered by
the hard fate. Fortunately, she had a good sense of humour.

Now, I must finish, and rush to work.

Cheers
Anita




anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:47:01 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Anita, Walter, all,


> Maybe the list shadow is in the sleeping mode, not active now. When someone
> writes irritating posts,it awakes, energizes and revitilized the list.
> Formerly, we had Julienne, Wilbur and  Void here. They were good projection
> hooks, very energetic, dynamic and irritating. They activated the shadow
> element in (almost)everybody, and inspired to write. But not all could bear
> the activated shadow in themselves, it was too oppressive, and they
> unsubbed. Now we are civilized and low-energized here, isn't true? I have
> found on the Netdynam , and formerly on the Jung-Psych list, that whenever
> somebody draws shadow projections on him- or herself, the energy bursts
> out, and  the heaps of posts is following. Now the shadow has begun to
> emerge on the Jung-l.

N: I've observed much the same thing, yet as far as I can tell
JungCircle
rolls merrily along with nary a shadow (I feel a little 'out of place')
>
> Walter, thanks for sharing your dream. It is interesting how Balkan  crisis
> is mirroring in the dream-world. I saw some nights ago, that Hitler was in
> my high-school.

N: thanks for this dream, Amita.  I dreampt once of Hitler.  Oddly, I
too
was high school age.  He was running for president and I was too young
to
vote!  In my case I was feeling a lot of impotent anger because someone
close
to me had made a unilateral decision that closely affected me.
  Somewhat like the feeling Walter describes in response to the Balkans
situation.
>
> Nancy, you asked where my father was coming from. He was coming from
> Russia, ...

N: Thanks for the update, Anita.  I was thinking I'd read somewhere on
the
web months ago that he'd come via Poland, but apparently that was not
the
case.

   An interesting story on another list about American
controversial intervention.  A member's father was the only member of
his
Norwegian underground movement to escape alive during W.W.II.  When
asked
what was the happiest day of his life, he answered "Pearl Harbor".
   I guess a lot depends on where you're sitting.

   Regards, Nancy

> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:46:55 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
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Nancy,

The shadow did (recently) put in an appearance on the Jung Circle
group.  There was a great deal of "affect" which resulted in apologies,
resignations, an such.  That is a different list and for that I am
particularly thankful.  It would be pointless to have all of these
groups being the same but at different addresses.

Nancy Smith wrote:

> N: I've observed much the same thing, yet as far as I can tell
> JungCircle
> rolls merrily along with nary a shadow (I feel a little 'out of place')

Notice as well that they are attempting to move to a format where four
people will act as "moderators" ... a quaternity of sorts.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:54:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)

On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:46:55 -0600, Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>The shadow did (recently) put in an appearance on the Jung Circle
>group.  There was a great deal of "affect" which resulted in apologies,
>resignations, an such.

N: I lounge corrected.  I'm very new there.
>
>Nancy Smith wrote:
>
>> N:  as far as I can tell JungCircle
>> rolls merrily along with nary a shadow (I feel a little 'out of place')
>
>Notice as well that they are attempting to move to a format where four
>people will act as "moderators" ... a quaternity of sorts.
>
>Robert
>
N: I did notice that (due to vacation of single moderator?) Just didn't
know that it was new.

Nancy
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:17:23 GMT
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.6.32.19990414123736.007ec640@megabaud.fi>
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Anita, all,

> some time ago Cheryl wrote, that she feels communication here somehow
> unsatisfying:
>
>  - threads that go nowhere - communications
>    that end abruptly - long silences, etc etc.
>
> Maybe the list shadow is in the sleeping mode, not active now. When someone
> writes irritating posts,it awakes, energizes and revitilized the list.

It energises me when you comment on the state of play (no connection to my
discussion with Stephen intended, but noted) in our list.

Threads go nowhere - Ok by me, that is the nature of *discussion* it has
some value as does the endless banter in pubs, in  *cafs* or the university
common room. I also would like some more collaboration, team work, write up
of stories and outcomes of deliberations, how to make that happen?  I do
think about those things and work at them too, but keep them somewhat
removed from this list.  I am not sure why... it has its own life...

shadow is in the sleeping mode - We do not have the personal attack and
irritation ... a good thing really if you ask me, but I sense something of a
shadow for all that, in sleeping mode fits for me too.  could it be
awakened, expressed in a more conscious manner than irritating and attacking
posts?  Can shadow be seen as something collective that we can look at
together?  Or is it always polarised, like the Serbian Media VS the US Media
where everything is always Other, them, evil, where we have God on our side,
as you say in this post.

If it is sleeping what are its dreams?

> Formerly, we had Julienne, Wilbur and  Void here. They were good projection
> hooks, very energetic, dynamic and irritating. They activated the shadow
> element in (almost)everybody, and inspired to write.

Do you miss those hooks Anita?  I miss something of the energy, but would
loathe more of the endless same that was happening.  If we are to emerge
from our more reflective quiet, may it be with a new energy and a new mood.

> But not all could bear
> the activated shadow in themselves, it was too oppressive, and they
> unsubbed. Now we are civilized and low-energized here, isn't true? I have
> found on the Netdynam , and formerly on the Jung-Psych list, that whenever
> somebody draws shadow projections on him- or herself, the energy bursts
> out, and  the heaps of posts is following. Now the shadow has begun to
> emerge on the Jung-l.

Yes, some people are shadow projection attractors ... just as some are Anima
projection attractors, I guess.  Interesting... I seem to attract big
brother ones... :)  Sometimes a bit of Parent.  I can irritate myself too!


> Walter, thanks for sharing your dream. It is interesting how Balkan  crisis
> is mirroring in the dream-world. I saw some nights ago, that Hitler was in
> my high-school. I had just viewed on TV a document about Milosevic. It was
> told that he was a son of an orthodox priest, both his father and mother
> were commited suicide. He was compared with Hitler.Formerly he was a hard
> core communist. He was said to be without human feelings and he was
> demonized completely in that document.
>    I have read both  NATO-  and Yugoslavian  government bulletins, they are
> full of shadow projections. The Bad is outside there, never here. Never in
> us. Never in me! Although I know that Hitler of my dreams is just my own
> shadow activated by Balkan crisis.

Is your inner Hitler so personal?  I know that is a fruitful way of looking
at dreams and projections, but am entertaining that you are picking up on
something that was present in the school as well.  What about the people who
attract projections of a particiular archetype ... who hang out the hooks,
does that mean we are hooked by our *own* hooks? Perhaps, but the others do
play a part.

I am reading the article by Andrew Samuels on Countertransference ... it
looks like an interesting discussion coming up on that in the Jung Seminars
... he seems to think there are neurotic countertransference, the ones where
it is our stuff, but in other cases it is a "communication from the client",
where we embody something that is in the clients soul.

I am not really clear on what i am saying, just musing out loud here... I am
disturbed by the deaths in the world, many of my clients are... I can see
how the war sometimes constellates in the pattern of the original family,
warring parents, sadistic schools, however, I think the disturbance, rage,
fear, impotence, is not *just* their own shadow stuff, history, it makes
sense now! I think it is healthy and appropriate to feel these things even
here in safe NZ, even to feel them in extremes, to feel debilitated even
makes sense.

Ah, I am disturbed, and I am in touch with both the stuff in the world, and
in me.  Damn!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:18:24 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1999041418553339@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Nancy,

I haven't seen on the list your mail, to which Robert is replying. I have
not even seen my own post. Perhass my mail server is overstrained because
of a considerable amont of Kosovo posts.

Anita


At 18:54 14.4.1999 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:46:55 -0600, Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
>wrote:
>
>>Nancy,
>>
>>The shadow did (recently) put in an appearance on the Jung Circle
>>group.  There was a great deal of "affect" which resulted in apologies,
>>resignations, an such.
>
>N: I lounge corrected.  I'm very new there.


anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:18:46 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      discontinuity
In-Reply-To:  <3715dbe6.1584273@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter reprises,

>> some time ago Cheryl wrote, that she feels communication here somehow
>> unsatisfying:
>>
>>  - threads that go nowhere - communications
>>    that end abruptly - long silences, etc etc.
>>
>> Maybe the list shadow is in the sleeping mode, not active now. When
>>someone
>> writes irritating posts,it awakes, energizes and revitilized the list.
>
>It energises me when you comment on the state of play (no connection to my
>discussion with Stephen intended, but noted) in our list.
>
>Threads go nowhere - Ok by me, that is the nature of *discussion*

Walter,

I think's it's frustrating when you work hard on a thread or your side of
the thread and, seemingly, poof! The nature of some discussions is that it
leaps and invigorates and then the collaboratordancers wrap it up and move
on.

***

However, appearances are deceiving at times. You and I have been brooking
foolishness and I intend to keep playing. (You left off with this ace
'minder for me: "I'm just foolin' around here, but i trust nothing will
come of it!") Since then you asked, on 4/7, "Stephen, can you say more
about the balkans, religion, the fruits of dim attention?" and, again, I
intend to respond, and have been generating a response.

No updates, no progress report, such slowness...yup. What could be
happening on my end? What happened is that I let my self engage my 'God
complex', and have been going through that distinctive creative inflation
"as if" some creature greater-than-Stephen is to address these three
threads left hanging. I allow myself this, to have the Gods speak through
me (in a psychological sense), although it doesn't usually end up in a
writing I'm necessarily going to share. Why? Because what comes out is
imbued with all the inferior feeling and *dim* attention which promotes
such over-reaching in the first place. That's how I would view this
archetypically; but, it might be viewed in other ways, too. So: behind the
scenes is always a factor and, to use the term shadow loosely, those
aspects are hidden. There is much more to quiet, disruption, loose threads,
abrupt endings than we might think, or, think to know.

For me, I'm looking at a process of distillation. As the saying goes: 'time
takes time'.

More later! :-)

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:19:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: discontinuity
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a00b33baf9f74a2@[207.54.181.117]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Stephen

  discontinuity

> I think's it's frustrating when you work hard on a thread or your side of
> the thread and, seemingly, poof! The nature of some discussions is that it
> leaps and invigorates and then the collaboratordancers wrap it up and move
> on.

I must do it a lot.  I enthuse and over commit ... however ... if i think of
it like a pub, or a caf it is ok.  I also like to think that someone can go
into our archives and continue on... redo, open up after more reflection,
more practice, experience.  That possibility is always there, and i think of
it as a sort of new possibility for a group like this ... we can look at our
past, make it present... like psychotherapy, see the patterns and flows.

I would also like to see something more come of things... that is HARD work!
Especially when it is collaborative.

> However, appearances are deceiving at times. You and I have been brooking
> foolishness and I intend to keep playing. (You left off with this ace
> 'minder for me: "I'm just foolin' around here, but i trust nothing will
> come of it!") Since then you asked, on 4/7, "Stephen, can you say more
> about the balkans, religion, the fruits of dim attention?" and, again, I
> intend to respond, and have been generating a response.

I never doubt your presence here.  I recall you saying once that you'd be
here for ... was it the long haul, or something.  I have that sense too.  I
have it here, and in my marriage, all else is mutable.

I thought of you today when i read this from Andrew Samuel:

http://www.cgjung.com/articles/asctrpol.html

~quote~
The mundus imaginalis

The mundus imaginalis, the imaginal world, is a term employed by Henry
Corbin, the French philosopher and scholar of Islam (Corbin, 1972, 1978,
1983). To use this term in an analytic context is not in itself original.
Hillman's suggestion that we practise 'Jung's technique with Corbin's
vision' is a precursor (Hillman, 1980). This enables us to include inside
the mundus imaginalis those images that Corbin regarded as a 'secularisation
of the imaginal': grotesque, painful, pathological - analytical material.
The mundus imaginalis refers to a precise order or level of reality, located
somewhere between primary sense impressions and more developed cognition or
spirituality.

~end quote~

I was thinking you might know of the more ancient conception of this realm.

The quote was also on my lips in a reply to Cheryl, in the beautifully
entitled thread:  Soul.  The thing happened, I had a post and it got deleted
by a stray lot of keystrokes, i hate *that* - discontinuity!


> No updates, no progress report, such slowness...yup. What could be
> happening on my end? What happened is that I let my self engage my 'God
> complex', and have been going through that distinctive creative inflation
> "as if" some creature greater-than-Stephen is to address these three
> threads left hanging. I allow myself this, to have the Gods speak through
> me (in a psychological sense), although it doesn't usually end up in a
> writing I'm necessarily going to share. Why? Because what comes out is
> imbued with all the inferior feeling and *dim* attention which promotes
> such over-reaching in the first place. That's how I would view this
> archetypically; but, it might be viewed in other ways, too. So: behind the
> scenes is always a factor and, to use the term shadow loosely, those
> aspects are hidden. There is much more to quiet, disruption, loose threads,
> abrupt endings than we might think, or, think to know.
>
> For me, I'm looking at a process of distillation. As the saying goes: 'time
> takes time'.
>
> More later! :-)

We see the tip of the iceberg of Psyber-L, and when it goes quiet it may
well submerged with its own weight, into a deeper place.

All is well,


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:01:17 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Soul
In-Reply-To:  <37134643.2F89@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl writes,

>Re: the recent posts by Walter re: Jung etc. I want to say that I have
>some problem with the use of the word 'soul' esp. the quote that spoke of
>'the automomous movement of the soul' When people use the word 'soul' it
>lulls them into thinking that whatever is happening is something noble,
>and good and should therefore in some way be revered. I think it is
>somewhat misleading to equate 'collective unconscious' with 'soul'.

I agree.

*Soul* is one of those words that can be so hard to pin down. Obviously it
carries a lot of connotations, especially given that what soul means in any
number of religious framings or philosophical framings promotes its
elusiveness. Then there are private and semi-private meanings and
aculturated meanings. Soul gets equated with spirit and becomes
interchangeable and prosaic.

In a Jungian framing it would be a simple mistake to equate soul with the
collective unconscious. (It's much more complicated.) Equally mistaken
would be to blow up soul and make it stand for everything-as-it-is. Yet,
even in analytic psychology it isn't so easily pinned down. For Jung, soul
is equated with the function of anima and animus, or the mediation of our
nature with our interiority, or as Hillman puts it, 'the face we turn to
our inner world'.

Irene Claremont de Castillejo grapples with defining soul in _Knowing
Woman_ :

"To be on one's thread is to be in touch with the Self that so that life
has meaning." and she senses this as a process of humanizing the Soul, (in
her words, "our immortal essence"), because "That the soul can be dark,
negative and destructive may seem a strange idea but it is impossible to
imagine the immortal soul has human attributes such as kindness, courage or
forgiveness. Those are qualities acquired through being mortal and human."

***

Soul may be seen to be more a function than an aspect, in which case, it
takes us to and through our necessity. Soul is impersonal in this sense; it
takes us to and through whether we like it or not. However, connecting
person with the impersonal, our *concious embrace* of our own necessity,
('who we really are!') does seem to be a noble stance. Yet, the autonomous
movement of soul is impersonal and beyond quality in the sense that only
conscious experience and differentiation may humanize our knowledge of
soul's function; incarnate it, so-to-speak.

Still, Jung does speak of the two souls, one the ancestral soul, "into
which the impersonal psyche of the individual reaches" and this apparently
does equate the collective unconscious with soul, as long as the
distinction between the impersonal and the personal psyche is made. This is
of import, since in the collective sense, the archetypes at times become
like a contagion, and infect masses of people with simple, fantastic,
primitive ideas.

Soul mediates the personal and the impersonal psyche so the person who can
contain the images of the primitive movement around them, who can
differentiate aspects of the ancestral soul, and respond to the 'madness'
is effecting the necessary humanization. But, this process of soul, good as
a process, will often reveal what is happening to be rightly the opposite
of noble, and good and beneath what should be revered.

This is my idiosyncratic take on it, not to be confused with correctness or
orthodox Jungian perspectives!

***

What Soul should mean is a good question, Cheryl.

regards,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:32:02 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Discontinuity/Soul
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Psyber-people,

I have had an up close and personal experience of discontinuity this
week. My brother died on Tuesday morning at 5 am from injuries sustained
4 years ago in a bicycle accident. He never got out bed after that except
to be strapped into a wheelchair. He had a feeding tube for the last year
which he often tried to take out. He didn't seem to think very well and
he rarely talked. Sort of brings the theorectical question of 'what is
soul" into a different focus.

Yesterday I put 175 miles on my car driving up into the mountains where
spring has begun. Just driving and thinking. Enroute I stopped and bought
 2 cherry trees which will go into my front yard. I also received 2
emails from friends of the birth of 2 babies girls - both on the day he
died. Kind of amazing - those kind of announcements at that time. I
decided that life wins. (how crude, how simplisitic, how comforting). One
death, two births and two cherry trees planted in spring. Not to get
maudlin but I wanted to buy a weeping cherry so I could mourn every year
(a little facitious  here, for those who don't know me ;) but they didn'y
have any. Just as well, indulgence is a bad habit. I am very sad and
sometimes if I think about it a little too long I get angry. He was 43
and certainly one of the walking wounded all his life. I'm pretty sure he
wanted to be out of his body and now he is. In my deep sad moments I feel
like a failure as a sister - I couldn't save him from his pain. It's a
horrible thought really, to see someone so close in pain for so many
years (and I mean from childhood on) and not be able to do anything about
it. We each have our journey. He is onto another phase of his now.

Does he have a soul - and where is it? There was no moon last night and I
looked up into the stunningly brillant mountain stars and wondered.
Really really wondered. And cried. I am very sad. He was my little
brother.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:38:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: Discontinuity/Soul
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

sorry for your loss cheryl  all the coincidence we notice in our life proves
that the universe is a living thing that responds to our thoughts your
brother has ascended into the 1st bardo and is still alive


>discontinuity this

;0
>week. My brother died on Tuesday morning at 5 am from injuries sustained
>4 years ago in a bicycle accident. He never got out bed after that except
>to be strapped into a wheelchair. He had a feeding tube for the last year
>which he often tried to take out. He didn't seem to think very well and
>he rarely talked. Sort of brings the theorectical question of 'what is
>soul" into a different focus.
>
>Yesterday I put 175 miles on my car driving up into the mountains where
>spring has begun. Just driving and thinking. Enroute I stopped and bought
> 2 cherry trees which will go into my front yard. I also received 2
>emails from friends of the birth of 2 babies girls - both on the day he
>died. Kind of amazing - those kind of announcements at that time. I
>decided that life wins. (how crude, how simplisitic, how comforting). One
>death, two births and two cherry trees planted in spring. Not to get
>maudlin but I wanted to buy a weeping cherry so I could mourn every year
>(a little facitious  here, for those who don't know me ;) but they didn'y
>have any. Just as well, indulgence is a bad habit. I am very sad and
>sometimes if I think about it a little too long I get angry. He was 43
>and certainly one of the walking wounded all his life. I'm pretty sure he
>wanted to be out of his body and now he is. In my deep sad moments I feel
>like a failure as a sister - I couldn't save him from his pain. It's a
>horrible thought really, to see someone so close in pain for so many
>years (and I mean from childhood on) and not be able to do anything about
>it. We each have our journey. He is onto another phase of his now.
>
>Does he have a soul - and where is it? There was no moon last night and I
>looked up into the stunningly brillant mountain stars and wondered.
>Really really wondered. And cried. I am very sad. He was my little
>brother.
>
>Cheryl
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:11:09 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)

Hi Anita, I'm having the same trouble. Psyber-L isn't coming through my
Netscape Messager mail program.  I'm have to come over to the web site to
read and response.
  It was said that the virus Melissa might overload servers sending out
50 messages to those in the address books of infected computers.
  DUnno.  The little irritations don't seem to disappear just because of
tragic world crises.

  Take care,  Nancy

On Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:18 Anita Konkka wrote:
>Hi Nancy,
>
>I haven't seen on the list your mail, to which Robert is replying. I have
>not even seen my own post. Perhass my mail server is overstrained because
>of a considerable amont of Kosovo posts.
>
>Anita
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:18:34 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Discontinuity/Soul
In-Reply-To:  <37160672.4328@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,

>I have had an up close and personal experience of discontinuity this
>week. My brother died on Tuesday morning at 5 am from injuries sustained
>4 years ago in a bicycle accident. He never got out bed after that except
>to be strapped into a wheelchair. He had a feeding tube for the last year
>which he often tried to take out. He didn't seem to think very well and
>he rarely talked. Sort of brings the theorectical question of 'what is
>soul" into a different focus.

A sense of discontinuity ...
... a breaking of union
... questionning connection
... questionning self
... meaning

Soul ...
... re-union
... relation
... unconditional
... infinite

>Does he have a soul - and where is it?

Where it has always been, dearest Cheryl ... in relation.  That essence
which is not bounded by biology, by time ... Bodies are not homes for
souls, it is the other way around ... the soul gives a home for the body
until ... and sometimes that until happens before the body expires.

Yes, Cheryl ... there is "soul"  ... Yes, your brother has/is soul ... and
he still "is" ...

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:50:58 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Discontinuity/Soul
In-Reply-To:  <37160672.4328@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl,

> Does he have a soul - and where is it? There was no moon last night and I
> looked up into the stunningly brillant mountain stars and wondered.
> Really really wondered. And cried. I am very sad. He was my little
> brother.

Little brother... that brings it home, to the child in me, to you too I am
sure, I feel the sadness of loosing the past, such a time of hope and
possibility.  Your story with us is a love and honour for his soul and when
you do that I want to ask no further, just appreciate your soul connection,
feel the mystery of the stars, and how you bring that here, thank you.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:11:43 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Kosovo Dream
In-Reply-To:  <37160672.4328@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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All,
I dreamt this last night...  I have very clear personal associations with
the dream, not related to Kosovo (that i know of!)... I am interested in how
this might go beyond my personal stuff, i have no idea.


I was in Yugoslavia and had a computer (!) and printer.  I in the dream was
not quite me, older and a Yugoslav (Serb or Albanian, I have no idea of the
politics of this dream) I may have had a uniform, I do feel as if I was
against the suffereing of innocent people, and highly motivated in that
area).  Three men middle aged and in whitish but well used overalls, perhaps
also with insignias, wanted to tell the truth about the situation, they
wanted to make a newsletter, but leave off the heading and then print them
out and add the heading later i ink, and sign it personally so that it could
all be verified as real.  They also wanted volunteers to come and help.
Before much was done beyond the printing out, one of the men was shot and
died and the others hid.  I was left with the documents, in a language I
could not read... the dream went on with me trying to find ways of adding
something and verifying the documents but not succeeding.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:54:11 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: Discontinuity/Soul
In-Reply-To:  <37160672.4328@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl:


    I don't know you very well but I feel your pain and I can empathize
with it, I too had a profound loss many years ago when my Mom died at 43.

 She died in a matter of minutes from a blood clot that hit her heart and I
was not at home. I was on a return trip to a distant location driving alone
at night when a shooting star fell right in front of my car. It'll be 37
years on July 29th and I still remember the feeling I had when that star
fell,  that something had happened,  although I did not know what it wasn't
until the next day when I found out that Mom had died shortly after my trip
had started. Somehow I still feel it was her soul communicating to me
through that star.

   I didn't have either a brother or a sister all I had was Mom and in a
matter of minutes or perhaps seconds she was gone. I've managed to keep her
in my heart all these years but at times I really just wanted her there
even if it was just for a minute.

   Please accept my sorrow at your loss and understand that I feel your
pain through your writing about it. I belive that his soul's presence is
still with you and shall be as long as you want it to be.

   Love.

   Janell


At 08:32 AM 4/15/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Psyber-people,
>
>I have had an up close and personal experience of discontinuity this
>week. My brother died on Tuesday morning at 5 am from injuries sustained
>4 years ago in a bicycle accident. He never got out bed after that except
>to be strapped into a wheelchair. He had a feeding tube for the last year
>which he often tried to take out. He didn't seem to think very well and
>he rarely talked. Sort of brings the theorectical question of 'what is
>soul" into a different focus.
>
>Yesterday I put 175 miles on my car driving up into the mountains where
>spring has begun. Just driving and thinking. Enroute I stopped and bought
> 2 cherry trees which will go into my front yard. I also received 2
>emails from friends of the birth of 2 babies girls - both on the day he
>died. Kind of amazing - those kind of announcements at that time. I
>decided that life wins. (how crude, how simplisitic, how comforting). One
>death, two births and two cherry trees planted in spring. Not to get
>maudlin but I wanted to buy a weeping cherry so I could mourn every year
>(a little facitious  here, for those who don't know me ;) but they didn'y
>have any. Just as well, indulgence is a bad habit. I am very sad and
>sometimes if I think about it a little too long I get angry. He was 43
>and certainly one of the walking wounded all his life. I'm pretty sure he
>wanted to be out of his body and now he is. In my deep sad moments I feel
>like a failure as a sister - I couldn't save him from his pain. It's a
>horrible thought really, to see someone so close in pain for so many
>years (and I mean from childhood on) and not be able to do anything about
>it. We each have our journey. He is onto another phase of his now.
>
>Does he have a soul - and where is it? There was no moon last night and I
>looked up into the stunningly brillant mountain stars and wondered.
>Really really wondered. And cried. I am very sad. He was my little
>brother.
>
>Cheryl
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:29:21 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Discontinuity/Soul
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Cheryl...

I was sorry to read about the loss of your brother.  I remember when you
wrote about him after my brother died in November, that you shared your
feelings then, and I deeply appreciated it.

I don't know what to think about souls now, but I do know that the feeling of
grief is a very mysterious thing.  It is different things at different times,
sometimes it is just for that one person, but sometimes it expands and seems
to encompass others lost.  At times it seems to me to tinge everything I
think and feel, at other times I feel numb, and sometimes I don't think about
it at all.

I wonder about the duration of grief, and if it can be confined or if there
are certain steps that can be taken to stimulate the process.  Somehow, that
seems ludicrous.  It is just one of those times to experience, I guess.

Cheryl, I want to say again that I am sorry about your loss.  When I read
your words, wondering about your brother's soul, and where it is, I thought
about how I miss that my brother is not in this world.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:42:52 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Discontinuity/Soul
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cheryl,
These past months I have experienced in a small way and certainly not
equated with your brother's challenge those moments when I didn't want to
continue in the reduced quality of life I was experiencing, when it seemed
staying held little and leaving at the very least would bring something
else...my friends hovered and worried and loved me but ultimately it was a
reframing of my view of *soul* that gave me the ability to stay...it seems
to me your brother's view is now expanded
Judith in deep sympathy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:32:49 -0700
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      [Fwd: Discontinuity/Soul]
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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:24:34 -0700
From: Nancy Smith <nsmith@negia.net>
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  I'm sorry about the loss of your brother, Cheryl.

  Of the people that have died in my life, most seem to have been 'ready
to
go', as it seems from your post your brother may have felt.  And that
has
been some comfort...  that at least they did not feel 'snatched from
life'.

  I still miss my own 'older' brother who died about 10 years ago.
There
was so much that only he and I shared.  I will think of something I
would
like to ask him only to realize he is not there to ask.

  Yet in a sense he is still with me, in memories, in Active
Imagination,
and in the others we both knew and love.

  Someone recently compared our knowledge of the great beyond
 to that of an ant in the Smithsonian.  Yet perhaps some sense of your
brother's soul may yet come to you that will at least partially satisfy.

  Blessings,

  Nancy

--------------0911A0EB4EE4CCCA66999F99--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:12:38 -0700
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Discontinuity/Soul
MIME-Version: 1.0
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  I'm sorry about the loss of your brother, Cheryl.

  Of the people that have died in my life, most seem to have been 'ready
to
go', as it seems from your post your brother may have felt.  And that
has
been some comfort...  that at least they did not feel 'snatched from
life'.

  I still miss my own 'older' brother who died about 10 years ago.
There
was so much that only he and I shared.  I will think of something I
would
like to ask him only to realize he is not there to ask.

  Yet in a sense he is still with me, in memories, in Active
Imagination,
and in the others we both knew and love.

  Someone recently compared our knowledge of the great beyond
 to that of an ant in the Smithsonian.  Yet perhaps some sense of your
brother's soul may yet come to you that will at least partially satisfy.

  Blessings,

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Apr 1999 08:13:02 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Kosovo Dream
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Walter and all,

Since I'm pretty much shut in my apartment on the couch I have been
watching all the tv about Kosovo...there is of course the horror of what is
going on yet I have been interested in the comments here and have a
wondering about shadow and transformation...

It struck me about the complexity of issues involved and that in order to
shift the collective consciousness the shadow has to be made visible...and
at least in the US it is on the tv 24 hours channel after channel...so many
belief systems are being amped...Walter you say *so many innocent people*
and I'm wondering about how Jung frames this...in my belief system we are
all connected thru the collective and thus in a cooperative event...there
isn't an other outside myself but within me that I am connected to...to
this end I am finding I'm being asked to evaluate what I am seeing and
sensing and hold an intention...what I am coming to is that this event has
all the ingredients for possible shifting in the collective, for
transformation...I don't understand how what I believe fits into Jung or
doesn't...

Judith contemplating

>All,
>I dreamt this last night...  I have very clear personal associations with
>the dream, not related to Kosovo (that i know of!)... I am interested in how
>this might go beyond my personal stuff, i have no idea.
>
>
>I was in Yugoslavia and had a computer (!) and printer.  I in the dream was
>not quite me, older and a Yugoslav (Serb or Albanian, I have no idea of the
>politics of this dream) I may have had a uniform, I do feel as if I was
>against the suffereing of innocent people, and highly motivated in that
>area).  Three men middle aged and in whitish but well used overalls, perhaps
>also with insignias, wanted to tell the truth about the situation, they
>wanted to make a newsletter, but leave off the heading and then print them
>out and add the heading later i ink, and sign it personally so that it could
>all be verified as real.  They also wanted volunteers to come and help.
>Before much was done beyond the printing out, one of the men was shot and
>died and the others hid.  I was left with the documents, in a language I
>could not read... the dream went on with me trying to find ways of adding
>something and verifying the documents but not succeeding.
>
>
>Walter
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:40:04 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Discontinuity/Soul
In-Reply-To:  <37160672.4328@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,

How horrible and painful a loss. Having lost my twin brother Tim in 1993, I
am on the other side of my mourning, but when I think of the event and even
his mostly saddened life cut short, I feel: "It sucks! I miss him!"

>Does he have a soul - and where is it? There was no moon last night and I
>looked up into the stunningly brillant mountain stars and wondered.

Immortal soul. Yet, for me, it is my loving my brother today which allows
his soul to be here.

***

<<When Gan-en died, Confucius groaned aloud and was inconsolable. The
disciples said, "Is not your grief excessive?" Confucius said, "You call it
excessive? If I am not to lament for this man, when am I to grieve?">>

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:26:26 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Kosovo Dream
In-Reply-To:  <v0155012eb33df09ddaec@[207.54.181.88]>
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[snip]

>transformation...I don't understand how what I believe fits into Jung or
>doesn't...
>
>Judith contemplating

For what it's worth, how something fits into something else, (let alone
poor Jung!) is, usually, fitfully. :-) Witnessing and contemplating, cooped
up in your healing room as it were, and then perspecting for us is
valuable, no matter what is archetypal.

That said, when you write, "in my belief system we are all connected thru
the collective and thus in a cooperative event...there isn't an other
outside myself but within me that I am connected to" is a statement of
valuation that is keenly congruent with an archetypal perspective. For what
it's worth since you wondered out loud, gyrll wonder.

***

The cooperative event is highly charged with all the various and competing
fantasies. We know about "the Greater Serbia", and perhaps we're also clued
into the tenants of Kosovar Liberation, but it was only Thursday night when
I spent two hours watching C-SPAN (a non-profit TV channel set up by the
television industry to broadcast verite captures of legislative proceedings
and conferences and public presentations and speeches, along with
interviews and call-in segments) broadcast deliberations of the Senate
armed forces committee that I heard the NATO fantasy articulated.

Amazingly, quite synchronous with Psyber-L. Sen. Robb, in response to Sen.
Inhofe (who told the assembled he was secure in doing everything he could
to prevent a ground war so that "When his grandchildren asked about what
their grandfather did...") mentioned that in the background of policy was
the requisite *humanitarian soul* of the United States.

I feel it is essential to recognize this is largely an undifferentiated
aspect of our US policy. Certainly Robb is not great enough a man to
understand its implications but, also, in his saying so one has to suppose
it resonates deeply within him nonetheless.

One implication is that, given this humanitarian soul, the US (us!) always
seems to be like the boy with a hammer, and knowingly propose what the
solution is to be, i.e. 'what's good for all involved' and this turns out
to be democracy. In the case of Yugoslavia, Serbian and Kosovar fantasies
don't suggest they have a desire to live together harmoniously along the
lines of one person one vote, but, as usual what people want and what their
political rights may or may not be idealised to be are different questions.
And, democracy never looks appropriate from within the magical group.

(Ha! "We'll teach them!") As always, this a defect in feeling about our
humanitarian soul. Necessarily, as an American, I remind myself how
democracy works in our country, and of the almost 1 billion hungry people
in the world, and of our own country's decadent worship of the almighty
dollar, among other realities of the current state of surety and mystery. I
don't kid myself, however, that's the soul we have to work with and from.

***

Yet, people are contemplating, our us-senate is contemplating; we're
getting amped heading into the y2k+1,2,3,(), and groping feeling regarding
the elephant in our cave.

Walter's dream:

>Three men middle aged and in whitish but well used overalls, perhaps
>also with insignias, wanted to tell the truth about the situation, they
>wanted to make a newsletter, but leave off the heading and then print them
>out and add the heading later i ink, and sign it personally so that it
>could
>all be verified as real.  They also wanted volunteers to come and help.
>Before much was done beyond the printing out, one of the men was shot and
>died and the others hid.

No heading! Yo: got to think, feel about it first! Use your head white
fellas; or men will be shot and damn you'll have to go hide to work on your
after-the-fact thinking and feeling about it. (Like Viet Nam, eh? After the
fact there is a thinking that simply states the USA would have triumphed if
we had just upped our involvement to crush those pesky pajamed
revolutionaries. Men get shot and white guys go hide and work such stuff
['we forgot we were omnipotent'] out.)

*After the fact thinking and feeling rarely is anything more than just
another fantasy about what will never be*. The time to get it right is
before you act. Yo!

***

The wise know, charges toward fantasy aren't going to go away. . .it's a
question of what fantasy charges you and what one is, what most are, what
few are. . .charging toward.

***

charge it,

Stephen



<< Things base and vile, holding no quantity,
Love can transpose to form and dignity:
Love looks not with the eyes but with the mind;
And therefore is wing'd Cupid painted blind. >>

[fr "A Midsummer Night's Dream"]

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:53:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Kosovo Dream
In-Reply-To:  <v0155012eb33df09ddaec@[207.54.181.88]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Judith,

> Since I'm pretty much shut in my apartment on the couch I have been
> watching all the tv about Kosovo...there is of course the horror of what is
> going on yet I have been interested in the comments here and have a
> wondering about shadow and transformation...

I have been listening on the net to some good interviews with Noam Chomsky
and also with Serbians etc:

http://www.wbur.org/connection/con_03.html

> Walter you say *so many innocent people*
> and I'm wondering about how Jung frames this...in my belief system we are
> all connected thru the collective and thus in a cooperative event...there
> isn't an other outside myself but within me that I am connected to...to
> this end I am finding I'm being asked to evaluate what I am seeing and
> sensing and hold an intention...what I am coming to is that this event has
> all the ingredients for possible shifting in the collective, for
> transformation...

You sense a direct line with us all in this?  Somehow you are the Serbs,
Nato, the KLA, the refugees?  There are no innocents or evil doers as such,
as all are a part of all?  Speaking of innocents I have been listening to a
Blake poem that speaks to this idea I think, I am sure you know it, but it
might tune in well here.  I will post it in a separate email.

I have an urge to take sides, to find the truth... as my dream shows the
three white men had the truth.  I am a seeker, foolishly perhaps...

> I don't understand how what I believe fits into Jung or
> doesn't...

I like what Stephen says in his post... what does Jung have to do with it? I
am sure we can all have our own perspective and still contribute. On the
other hand, in my dream, the "truth" has no heading... no "Jung says"  no
give away of a party line such as "Fascist Bombs hit Civilians" ... it is
hard to have a truth that is not part of a collective schema, is it even
possible?

All the best in your "healing room" with your difficult times.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:56:11 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Auguries of Innocence ~ Blake
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Auguries of Innocence


To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour
A Robin Red breast in a Cage
Puts all Heaven in a Rage
A Dove house filld with doves & Pigeons
Shudders Hell thro all its regions
A dog starvd at his Masters Gate
Predicts the ruin of the State
A Horse misusd upon the Road
Calls to Heaven for Human blood
Each outcry of the hunted Hare
A fibre from the Brain does tear
A Skylark wounded in the wing
A Cherubim does cease to sing
The Game Cock clipd & armd for fight
Does the Rising Sun affright
Every Wolfs & Lions howl
Raises from Hell a Human Soul
The wild deer wandring here & there
Keeps the Human Soul from Care
The Lamb misusd breeds Public strife
And yet forgives the Butchers Knife
The Bat that flits at close of Eve
Has left the Brain that wont Believe
The Owl that calls upon the Night
Speaks the Unbelievers fright
He who shall hurt the little Wren
Shall never be belovd by Men
He who the Ox to wrath has movd
Shall never be by Woman lovd
The wanton Boy that kills the Fly
Shall feel the Spiders enmity
He who torments the Chafers sprite
Weaves a Bower in endless Night
The Catterpiller on the Leaf
Repeats to thee thy Mothers grief
Kill not the Moth nor Butterfly
For the Last judgment draweth nigh
He who shall train the Horse to War
Shall never pass the Polar Bar
The Beggers Dog & Widows Cat
Feed them & thou wilt grow fat
The Gnat that sings his Summers song
Poison gets from Slanders tongue
The poison of the Snake & Newt
Is the sweat of Envys Foot
The Poison of the Honey Bee
Is the Artists jealousy
The Princes Robes & Beggars Rags
Are Toadstools on the Misers Bags
A truth thats told with bad intent
Beats all the Lies you can invent
It is right it should be so
Man was made for Joy & Woe
And when this we rightly know
Thro the World we safely go
Joy & Woe are woven fine
A Clothing for the soul divine
Under every grief & pine
Runs a joy with silken twine
The Babe is more than swadling Bands
Throughout all these Human Lands
Tools were made & Born were hands
Every Farmer Understands
Every Tear from Every Eye
Becomes a Babe in Eternity
This is caught by Females bright
And returnd to its own delight
The Bleat the Bark Bellow & Roar
Are Waves that Beat on Heavens Shore
The Babe that weeps the Rod beneath
Writes Revenge in realms of death
The Beggars Rags fluttering in Air
Does to Rags the Heavens tear
The Soldier armd with Sword & Gun
Palsied strikes the Summers Sun
The poor Mans Farthing is worth more
Than all the Gold on Africs Shore.
One Mite wrung from the Labrers hands
Shall buy & sell the Misers Lands
Or if protected from on high
Does that whole Nation sell & buy
He who mocks the Infants Faith
Shall be mock'd in Age & Death
He who shall teach the Child to Doubt
The rotting Grave shall neer get out
He who respects the Infants faith
Triumphs over Hell & Death
The Childs Toys & the Old Mans Reasons
Are the Fruits of the Two seasons
The Questioner who sits so sly
Shall never know how to Reply
He who replies to words of Doubt
Doth put the Light of Knowledge out
The Strongest Poison ever known
Came from Caesars Laurel Crown
Nought can Deform the Human Race
Like to the Armours iron brace
When Gold & Gems adorn the Plow
To peaceful Arts shall Envy Bow
A Riddle or the Crickets Cry
Is to Doubt a fit Reply
The Emmets Inch & Eagles Mile
Make Lame Philosophy to smile
He who Doubts from what he sees
Will neer Believe do what you Please
If the Sun & Moon should Doubt
Theyd immediately Go out
To be in a Passion you Good may Do
But no Good if a Passion is in you
The Whore & Gambler by the State
Licencd build that Nations Fate
The Harlots cry from Street to Street
Shall weave Old Englands winding Sheet
The Winners Shout the Losers Curse
Dance before dead Englands Hearse
Every Night & every Morn
Some to Misery are Born
Every Morn & every Night
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to Endless Night
We are led to Believe a Lie
When we see not Thro the Eye
Which was Born in a Night to perish in a Night
When the Soul Slept in Beams of Light
God Appears & God is Light
To those poor Souls who dwell in Night
But does a Human Form Display
To those who Dwell in Realms of day

               *


http://virtual.park.uga.edu/~wblake/eE.html#web




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Apr 1999 08:32:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Kosovo Dream
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Stephen,

>[snip]
>
>>transformation...I don't understand how what I believe fits into Jung or
>>doesn't...
>>
>>Judith contemplating
>
>For what it's worth, how something fits into something else, (let alone
>poor Jung!) is, usually, fitfully. :-) Witnessing and contemplating, cooped
>up in your healing room as it were, and then perspecting for us is
>valuable, no matter what is archetypal.

I mispoke...or didn't get the musing correct...I see the archetypes...what
I really was wondering about was *shadow* and how in Jung's framing
integration (don't know if that's the correction word) or transformation
(in my vocabulary) occurs...there is a lot of alluding to shadow here which
I am beginning to grok, yet as usual I'm interested in how integration (if
that is the word) *works* or if one simply battles the archetypes on and
on...

(snip)

>***
>
>The cooperative event is highly charged with all the various and competing
>fantasies. We know about "the Greater Serbia", and perhaps we're also clued
>into the tenants of Kosovar Liberation, but it was only Thursday night when
>I spent two hours watching C-SPAN (a non-profit TV channel set up by the
>television industry to broadcast verite captures of legislative proceedings
>and conferences and public presentations and speeches, along with
>interviews and call-in segments) broadcast deliberations of the Senate
>armed forces committee that I heard the NATO fantasy articulated.
>
>Amazingly, quite synchronous with Psyber-L. Sen. Robb, in response to Sen.
>Inhofe (who told the assembled he was secure in doing everything he could
>to prevent a ground war so that "When his grandchildren asked about what
>their grandfather did...") mentioned that in the background of policy was
>the requisite *humanitarian soul* of the United States.
>
>I feel it is essential to recognize this is largely an undifferentiated
>aspect of our US policy.

Yes, undifferentiated, however, having this said out loud begins the
process of differentiation, no?
 Certainly Robb is not great enough a man to
>understand its implications but, also, in his saying so one has to suppose
>it resonates deeply within him nonetheless.

And in many others so it seems...I find the implications of the use of
military delivery systems for humanitarian aid AND delivery of the bombs
interesting...there is some alluding to how taxed the air strips are and
how hard it is to fly into Albania...there is huge cooperative effort going
on to care for the people coming out of Kosovo causing discussion about the
changing role of the military including NATO...so the war archetype which
includes pillage and plunder,good guy, bad guy, no regard for the
innocents, etc. is being pushed on by a resonance deep within the
collective which is rising up and manifesting maybe? colliding with all the
complexities

>
>One implication is that, given this humanitarian soul, the US (us!) always
>seems to be like the boy with a hammer, and knowingly propose what the
>solution is to be, i.e. 'what's good for all involved' and this turns out
>to be democracy. In the case of Yugoslavia, Serbian and Kosovar fantasies
>don't suggest they have a desire to live together harmoniously along the
>lines of one person one vote, but, as usual what people want and what their
>political rights may or may not be idealised to be are different questions.
>And, democracy never looks appropriate from within the magical group.

Yes, and democracy is what is rising up (not just a fantacy of
US)...remember the surprise when the Berlin Wall suddenly came down
seemingly out of nowhere? We in the US may well hold an arrogant position
and perpetrate our value systems at the expense of others, and we certainly
have a very messy country...what this seems to ask is how some ideations
manfiest, catch the fantacy if you will of people...why did Newton's
spiritual beliefs he held as a man get separated from his theories and
Western thot advanced into a mechanistic view of the world?
>
>(Ha! "We'll teach them!") As always, this a defect in feeling about our
>humanitarian soul. Necessarily, as an American, I remind myself how
>democracy works in our country, and of the almost 1 billion hungry people
>in the world, and of our own country's decadent worship of the almighty
>dollar, among other realities of the current state of surety and mystery. I
>don't kid myself, however, that's the soul we have to work with and from.

Wow...
>
>***
>
>Yet, people are contemplating, our us-senate is contemplating; we're
>getting amped heading into the y2k+1,2,3,(), and groping feeling regarding
>the elephant in our cave.
(snip)
Judith leaving her couch for coffee
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:49:13 +0300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Kosovo Dream
In-Reply-To:  <37175f51.35232213@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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Hi Walter,

I, too, was in Kosovo three night ago, but I didn't meet you there :-) I
remember only a huge,( 3 meters high) statue of clay. It stood stockstill
on the border of Kosovo. Its back was inlaid by oval ceramics, which were
blue and very bright- coloured. I have no inkling what it means, no
personal connections, only a biblical recollection of Nebuchadnezzaar's dream.

With best regards
Anita

anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:46:22 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Kosovo Dream
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks Walter...I was not familiar with Blake's poem

>Judith,
>
>> Since I'm pretty much shut in my apartment on the couch I have been
>> watching all the tv about Kosovo...there is of course the horror of what is
>> going on yet I have been interested in the comments here and have a
>> wondering about shadow and transformation...
>
>I have been listening on the net to some good interviews with Noam Chomsky
>and also with Serbians etc:
>
>http://www.wbur.org/connection/con_03.html
>
>> Walter you say *so many innocent people*
>> and I'm wondering about how Jung frames this...in my belief system we are
>> all connected thru the collective and thus in a cooperative event...there
>> isn't an other outside myself but within me that I am connected to...to
>> this end I am finding I'm being asked to evaluate what I am seeing and
>> sensing and hold an intention...what I am coming to is that this event has
>> all the ingredients for possible shifting in the collective, for
>> transformation...
>
>You sense a direct line with us all in this?  Somehow you are the Serbs,
>Nato, the KLA, the refugees?  There are no innocents or evil doers as such,
>as all are a part of all?

I don't know if the sense is direct however I have recently been made aware
of how "good guy/bad guy" has been playing out for me...It might be useful
to elaborate a bit...

My resonnance has been to Shamanism and I study with Myron Eschowsky who is
a gifted teacher and powerful...In March I had a session with him which was
key to me turning the corner health wise...and it led to revelation of a
deep seated dynamic for me...I have spent this life time in fear of being
blindsided...and in a hypervigilance...after the session with Myron I felt
a safety which I had never experienced before...feeling a sense of
tribalness and the role of the Shaman in monitoring the health and safety
of the tribe, a total feeling that I was being taken care of, someone was
watching out for me...it stayed with me for weeks...which then revealed the
root of my lifelong hypervigilance...I have had an aversion to Sorcery and
have avoided anything having to do with it, tho often I could recognize it
at work...and it has been around me particularly lately...

All this is to say that out of this emerging awareness which I have been
tenaciously following to learn what I had not been seeing, I experienced  a
trigger which sent me into convulsions of fear, the nth...and as the
universe provides I was headed to a session which allowed me to process the
source of the fear which was my sensing of Wizzard War's which is good
guy/bad guy...and learning a different framing which as a result shifted me
out of the fear...

What I learned was that my conscious avoidance of participation, making a
boundary, did not release me from the framing...I was still
participating...and thus continued at risk tho with my alignment with my
teacher I felt safe...it took reframing and shifting out of the Wizzard War
which ultimately brought me to a safety resting in my higher self...

My present awareness then moves me out of good guy/bad guy which is very
much playing out over Kosovo...and ultimately identifying who the good guy
or bad guy is depends on which side one is on...and underlying it all is
fear

 Speaking of innocents I have been listening to a
>Blake poem that speaks to this idea I think, I am sure you know it, but it
>might tune in well here.  I will post it in a separate email.
>
>I have an urge to take sides, to find the truth... as my dream shows the
>three white men had the truth.  I am a seeker, foolishly perhaps...

Yes, there is that age old question...what is the truth? I remember my
mentor riling at me about me being a relativist which I didn't understand
because I had no knowledge of philosophy...I see no foolishness, however, I
wonder at three white men having the truth...
>
>> I don't understand how what I believe fits into Jung or
>> doesn't...
>
>I like what Stephen says in his post... what does Jung have to do with it?
Well, I suppose I was just attempting to understand how the Jungian framing
sees what is going on...
 I
>am sure we can all have our own perspective and still contribute. On the
>other hand, in my dream, the "truth" has no heading... no "Jung says"  no
>give away of a party line such as "Fascist Bombs hit Civilians" ... it is
>hard to have a truth that is not part of a collective schema, is it even
>possible?
And isn't that the rub?:-)

>
>All the best in your "healing room" with your difficult times.
Thanks...difficult but necessary as it becomes clearer...

Judith with more to go
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:38:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Jung-Seminars ~ countertransference ~ politics ~ war and process
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All,

A while back I posted a reference to the Jung Seminar.  I have since been
reading the central essay "Countertransference, the Imaginal World, and the
Politics of the Sublime" by ANDREW SAMUELS

http://www.cgjung.com/articles/asctrpol.html

I am finding it interesting... though i have not completed the reading.  I
love this stuff and the topic, and so far some of the essays themes are
worth the effort!

The essay so far is good on countertransference - I love his equating it
with a mystical experience while at the same time figuring exactly what is
going on, distinguishing various forms of countertransference - neurotic, or
as communication from the client - reflective or embodied, worth persevering
with the distinction, and noting how this may also operate in "here" in
Psyber-L, cyberspace, in our various transferences (actually in all of our
life really).  He thinks of himself as linking the empirical with the
poetic.

The words "imaginal world" link to my fascination with the ontology of
cyberspace and the psyche.  What are they!  His familiarity with Corbin and
Hillman are useful. I like his rhizome metaphor for linking the individual
and the collective.

Politics is on my mind -- nothing sublime about it.  I have been off work
with a flu and been reading up lots on Yugoslavia.  I want NATO out Now!
Invasion of a sovereign state by 19 countries, how can that happen? -- that
might tie in with the countertransference notion ...

Arrh... war is on my mind a lot, perhaps that is as it should be, but is
this really the place for politics of Kosovo, NATO, US and the war?  I think
so, though you may note my hesitation.  The tension I feel is well put in
the opening of the essay, with Samuels quoting Freud then Jung:

~quote~

    To throw light on the origins of our great cultural
    institutions - on   religion, morality, justice,
    and philosophy... Our knowledge of the neurotic
    illnesses of individuals has been of much assistance
    to our understanding of the great social institutions.
                                  (Freud, 1913a, p.235)


Jung made a similar point about the relationship of depth psychology and
politics in a more reactive vein in 1946 in his preface to a collection of
his essays on Nazi Germany:

    We are living in times of great disruption:
    political passions are aflame, internal upheavals
    have brought nations to the brink of chaos.... This
    critical state of things has such a tremendous
    influence on the psychic life of the individual
    that the analyst ... feels the violence of its
    impact even in the quiet of his consulting room.
    ... The psychologist cannot avoid coming to grips
    with contemporary history, even if his very soul
    shrinks from the political uproar, the lying
    propaganda, and the jarring speeches of the
    demagogues. We need not mention his duties as a
    citizen, which confront him with a similar task
                        (CW 10, para. 11).

At times, it seems that Freud and Jung were as interested in the broad sweep
of cultural evolution and in an engagement with collective psychology as
they were in their day-to-day work with clients. Certainly, there is a
tension between their cultural and clinical projects and this is a tension
that is still with their descendants today."

~end quote~

I feel the tension... not because of the clinical vs the cultural, but
because of the fear of "political uproar, the lying propaganda, and the
jarring speeches of the demagogues." including the demagogue in me.

NATO out NOW!  listen to me!

~~~

The war mirrors inner turmoil in my life... but it is obscene in my opinion
to somehow think of the war as a projection, as something in the imaginal
world. It may be all that, but as a "westerner", in a "western" nation I
think the focus must be on making a change, in our countries politics... in
the way the war is propagandised here, in the way we are part of a
hypnotized people, kept ignorant, undereducated.

I am looking to reading the rest of the essay to see if Andrew Samuels
speaks more directly to these dilemmas.

Our sharing of war dreams is a form of searching for something other than
personal salvation, I hope we keep that up... Anita, I want to get back to
your dream, I started by researching Nebuchadnezzaar's dream, got nowhere,
and then got lost in flu and cyberspace... oh and there is nothing wrong
with personal salvation either -- do i make sense?


Robert,

I am an occasional lurker on Jung-L!  I saw that you invited people there to
discuss the Samuels essay pre- the seminar.  I thought of writing there...
however the sense of becoming overwhelmed came up as on other occasions... I
can't really be in two places at once, however *that* is the Jung list and
this is *exploring the psyche in cyberspace*.  I think this seminar relates
to both in different ways.  These days this (Psyber-L) is a more enclosed
space, and I notice how after some deliberation I simply want to stay put,
even with this Jungian discussion.

Who knows, we might even have some preliminaries in both these lists and
then see each other in the more formally moderated environment of the
Seminar.  Could be interesting.


Walter


> ~quote~
>
> Jung-Seminars
>
> The Jung-Seminars
> The Next Jung-Seminar
> Andrew Samuels will be leading a seminar from May 15-20, 1999, on the
> subject of his article, "Countertransference, the Imaginal World, and the
> Politics of the Sublime." Dr. Samuels is Professor of Analytical psychology
> at the University of Essex and Visiting Professor of Psychoanalytic Studies
> at London University. He is a Jungian training analyst, lecturer and
> political consultant. His books include Jung and the Post-Jungians, A
> Critical Dictionary of Jungian Analysis, The Plural Psyche, and The
> Political Psyche. In 2000 he will publish The Secret Life of Politics.
>
> http://www.cgjung.com/jungsem.html
>
> ~end quote~
>




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:05:08 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      war and process, horror and soul
In-Reply-To:  <3735b5b0.333754076@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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If peace is the aim, then the peacekeeper's rule should be the same as the
medical profession's: First, do no harm. If all this sounds disgustingly
soft-minded, bear in mind that the current NATO strategy seems designed to
turn the children in Belgrade's bomb shelters into tomorrow's international
terrorist menace. In the end, of course, we bomb because bombing is what we
know how to do. Here, another historical analogy may apply: In the Hundred
Years War, the French knights tried to battle English archers by charging
them on horseback in the usual knightly fashion. Again and again--Cr=E9cy
through Agincourt--the French knights charged very nicely indeed, and were
duly slaughtered by English arrows. Yes, NATO does a commendable job of
bombing. But it has yet to prove it can accomplish anything useful.

Barbara Ehrenreich

***

"We need to be there for the families,'' said Sen. Ken Chlouber,
R-Leadville, Senate sponsor of SB 84, which Dean sponsored in the House.
"Anything else we do as a Legislature is just insignificant.''

(Sen. Clouber's votes were being counted as in-favor of two proposed bills
to significantly loosen Colorado's gun control laws. The two bills were
shelved by Republican leadership in Denver on the day of the Cullenbine
massacre.)

***

About the shelving of the bills, an NRA spokesperson said:

"Nobody's going to be able to discuss it rationally,'' said Bill Dietrick,
a member of the National Rifle Association who has been lobbying lawmakers
this year as legislative director of the NRA's state group, the Colorado
State Shooting Association. "As far as I'm concerned, they can table
everything.''

***

(from Denver Post)

"He's big on that, they're all big on that," Brown said. "They're all big
on anti-God, Satanism. They're really just pure hate is the way the entire
group is. I know all of them, I'm acquaintances of all of them -- I
wouldn't say friends, but I don't reject them."

"They were extremely bright, but not good students," said choir teacher Lee
Andres. "... They disliked authority. They did not like to be told what to
do."

***

from San Francisco Chronicle)

Dylan Klebold was a lanky computer genius who had been on an honor studies
track since elementary school, and his pal Eric Harris was a promising
short story writer who was so good at his studies they bored him.

***

"We also have to take this moment, once again, to hammer home to all the
children of America that violence is wrong. And parents should take this
moment to ask what else they can do to shield our children from violent
images and experiences that warp young perceptions and obscure the
consequences of violence -- to show our children, by the power of our own
example, how to resolve conflicts peacefully."

(Bombs away! President Clinton speaking on Wednesday, 4/21)

***

from San Francisco Chronicle

``Too many boys don't have fathers and uncles around them to demonstrate
what it is to be a man, so they learn from television and video games,''
said Michael Ghiglieri, an anthropologist at Northern Arizona University
and author of ``The Dark Side of Man: Tracing the Origins of Male
Violence.''

[snip]

Besides the outside influences, studies of children who kill are finding
several common psychological elements, typically a sense of being
victimized and ignored.

``They feel people have stolen their power, and a way to regain that is to
use a fairly dramatic format, threatening with knives or guns, or even
using them,'' Martin said.

***

from the San Francisco Chronicle:

``It's always society's solution to blame something other than itself,''
said Carolyn, a 17-year-old senior. ``They just want a scapegoat.''

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:41:14 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: war and process, horror and soul
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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>From about 20 miles from Littleton, Colorado:

Psyber folks, the past two days in Colorado have been surreal beyond any
shared mass experience I can remember.  It is almost as if the closer you get
to connections with the Columbine tragedy, the more surreal it gets.

Those of us who live in the metro area are probably most aware and horrified
that this would happen where it did... the area around Columbine High School
is primarily middle, if not upper middle class, an oasis of big suburban
homes, minivans, and with a plethora of soccer moms and dads.  It is
difficult to picture anywhere that is more conducive to opportunities for
children than were available at Columbine.  As my 16 year old son and I
watched the events unfold on tv here, he said, "Mom, they have THREE baseball
diamonds!"  His school, in a less affluent but still soccer parent territory,
has only one baseball diamond.

Since I have a couple of friends in Littleton, I have a son who is 16 who has
played soccer with some of the students who attended Columbine, my closeness
to this surreal tragedy has been both peripheral but VERY connected.
Yesterday, I found out that indeed, one of my friends in Littleton not only
has a son who was there during the shooting, but who was IN the cafeteria at
the time the shooting began.  He made it out safely, thankfully, running with
bullets being fired around him.

There is something about all this that I think has triggered many many
people.  I have heard from several people, especially young people, on-line
who have been touched by the tragedy.  Maybe because I live in Colorado and
have counselor in my AOL profile, they have contacted me, to express
sympathy, express their own fears, look to me for reassurance?  I don't know,
except I have been intuiting a deep need in others for connection.  It is
both a hopeful and skeptical feeling in me.

I think most of all, when the shock of this passes, I hope that we can learn
and pursue dialogues to attempt to address the unanswered needs of so many in
this culture.  I don't even care what kind of dialogue, hostile,
conciliatory, whatever.

I am thinking that is a way out of some kind of mass shared denial in our
collective psyche that currently exists in our culture, which I feel VERY
angry about.

Sheryl

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Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:22:03 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: war and process, horror and soul
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sheryl and all,
Sheryl it is important for me to have your message here...thanks

Tho I am many miles away and only connected through about 6 tv stations, I
too have a surreal feeling...in the past I felt it as happening somewhere
else to others, a rising phenomenon which didn't motivate me to *do*
something ...tragic yes but my child was grown and past it as I thot...I
had raised him with specific intention to keep him out of public schools
where competition and humiliation and normanizing were the rules...knowing
the consequences to the psyche

it feels like the universe has been throwing cosmic bricks for the last few
years and instead of getting the message we in the US focused on
prosecuting the perpetrator(s)...though there was some action taken in
schools mostly in the inner cities, it seems people somehow still thought
that we were safe in our suburbandness with *three baseball diamonds* and
so the universe upped the ante...and the ante was upped with
Kosovo...somewhere here I said we were being amped for a shift and I for
one have been watching, my heart has been opened wide...and then boom, the
cosmic bomb hits us in the United States...and I am feeling a rising of
something in me to *do* something...and it will be accomplished IMHO
through leading with the heart and not the intellect and that has to do
with the rising feminine

The message for me is the parallel of the alienated, the path of
*difference*...the intolerance for those other than *me*...and in the US
the rising of groups of *difference* and our lack of perception as to what
to do...so we surround a group with FBI agents and storm or we move to the
suburbs in denial that what is happening is about us and support the NRA
who is now pushing for concealed weapons...

What I find particularly fascinating is that the young men killed
themselves so though there is talk about others involved, we really can't
be focused on brining them to justice, the rule of law solving rationally,
and have the next years be about pictures from courthouses like
Oklahoma...so questions are being asked here about what is going on, some
dumb and some not so dumb...dialogue maybe in every school in America...

In Ohio there has been an effort to put mediation for conflict resolution
into schools down to the elementary level...and yesterday Pres Clinton
visited a school in Virginia where there is a highly diversified student
body and listened about their use of peer mediation and hot line to alert
themselves to conflict and to intervene...Clinton (for all his flaws) got
to what I sense is a huge issue for us here in the US...what I call the
*railroad track* dynamic...the need to make myself feel better by
comparison and conversely create those who feel worse...Clinton spoke to
the consequences of this...he said something about how someone is hurt with
words and then they turn around and find someone else to hurt... and now
they hurt with guns

Isn't it interesting that the NRA was to have their big convention to rally
after the defeat in Missouri of concealed weapons...so we see the US big
guns being used in Kosovo and the small guns being used on ourselves here
in the US

Twice yesterday reporters asked parents of killed students, *don't you hate
the boys who did this* and in both cases the answer was *no, everything
happens for a reason*...

(snip)

>  I have heard from several people, especially young people, on-line
>who have been touched by the tragedy.  Maybe because I live in Colorado and
>have counselor in my AOL profile, they have contacted me, to express
>sympathy, express their own fears, look to me for reassurance?  I don't know,
>except I have been intuiting a deep need in others for connection.  It is
>both a hopeful and skeptical feeling in me.

I have the same feeling...and one of the outward signs for me of hope is
the cooperation in both situations...the Littleton Sherrif commented over
and over about the incredible cooperation of all the units from all the
jurisdictions who came together and cooperated and as he said *with no turf
issues*...

>
>I think most of all, when the shock of this passes, I hope that we can learn
>and pursue dialogues to attempt to address the unanswered needs of so many in
>this culture.  I don't even care what kind of dialogue, hostile,
>conciliatory, whatever.
>
>I am thinking that is a way out of some kind of mass shared denial in our
>collective psyche that currently exists in our culture, which I feel VERY
>angry about.
>
>Sheryl

Time will tell, but I for one find a reason to heal rising in me...and a
need to participate...a surprising place to be since I have spent a
lifetime working at the inner level and teaching at the edge of the map
which was completed...in retrospect I see these latest months of health
crisis for me have been about looking for an entry point from my couch to
the *outside*, for a reason to stay on the earth...and that reason begins
to emerge...

Judith with a few dots connecting



>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:12:21 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Direct Reports from Kosovo/Serbia/Yugo ~ Mailing list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

I have found this a well run list, and hope that we may get more news this
way, have others seen sites that do this sort of direct linking with people
from the area?

Walter


~quote~

Direct Reports from Kosovo/Serbia/Yugo

To Join send email to:

kosovo-reports-subscribe@egroups.com


This HIGHLY MODERATED forum now only allows direct reports, period.
Discussion should be taken to this forum or to the forums listed below.
Discussion posts will be ignored.  Thanks.  Please read on ...

This is a special mechanism to post real life informational e-mail updates
from the Kosovo/Serbia/Yugoslavia region to the web for the world to see.
All those involved are welcome to contribute their story, from people on the
ground to those in the skies.  Third person accounts, rumors, or news
service stories are discouraged.

[snip]

To view the reports on the web visit:
http://www.egroups.com/list/kosovo-reports

This forum was created by Steven Clift based on the idea that an e-mail to
web mechanism in this crisis situation would be an important contribution
towards greater understanding from all perspectives.




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:44:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Jung-Seminars ~ countertransference ~ politics ~ war and
              process
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,

I am so touched by your posting and have my own, tho very different,
response to what is going on I am wondering when we think about change
isn't it tricky...I wonder where we are in the change...and what the change
is? Your political belief system around wanting NATO out now says to me
that you value the nation state and it is inviolate (am I
misconcluding?)...if we take that to it's extreme then we allow ethnic
cleansing within the borders no matter what and in my view support it by
default (because I hold a belief system that we are all connected)...I feel
we are being asked as citizens of the globe to feel our collective
connection (brought by the rising of the feminine maybe)...and yes, with
this comes the asking of very tricky questions which pushes on the very
structures apparently holding the chaos at bay...

Is it a masculine/feminine dynamic being played out? the shift from
either/or to synthesis?  to even Transformation, a reformulation of the
collective psyche?

I hear your deep feeling and I find it helpful to me in clarifying my own
feelings...for me the position of humanitarianism juxtaposed to the Serbian
dream of a Greater Serbia is a question of asking Serbians, could there be
another way other than ethnic cleansing to accomplish this...it seems to me
that is what all the diplomacy was about...which failed...I wonder why?

Judith wondering

>All,
>
>A while back I posted a reference to the Jung Seminar.  I have since been
>reading the central essay "Countertransference, the Imaginal World, and the
>Politics of the Sublime" by ANDREW SAMUELS
>
>http://www.cgjung.com/articles/asctrpol.html
>
>I am finding it interesting... though i have not completed the reading.  I
>love this stuff and the topic, and so far some of the essays themes are
>worth the effort!
>
>The essay so far is good on countertransference - I love his equating it
>with a mystical experience while at the same time figuring exactly what is
>going on, distinguishing various forms of countertransference - neurotic, or
>as communication from the client - reflective or embodied, worth persevering
>with the distinction, and noting how this may also operate in "here" in
>Psyber-L, cyberspace, in our various transferences (actually in all of our
>life really).  He thinks of himself as linking the empirical with the
>poetic.
>
>The words "imaginal world" link to my fascination with the ontology of
>cyberspace and the psyche.  What are they!  His familiarity with Corbin and
>Hillman are useful. I like his rhizome metaphor for linking the individual
>and the collective.
>
>Politics is on my mind -- nothing sublime about it.  I have been off work
>with a flu and been reading up lots on Yugoslavia.  I want NATO out Now!
>Invasion of a sovereign state by 19 countries, how can that happen? -- that
>might tie in with the countertransference notion ...
>
>Arrh... war is on my mind a lot, perhaps that is as it should be, but is
>this really the place for politics of Kosovo, NATO, US and the war?  I think
>so, though you may note my hesitation.  The tension I feel is well put in
>the opening of the essay, with Samuels quoting Freud then Jung:
>
>~quote~
>
>    To throw light on the origins of our great cultural
>    institutions - on   religion, morality, justice,
>    and philosophy... Our knowledge of the neurotic
>    illnesses of individuals has been of much assistance
>    to our understanding of the great social institutions.
>                                  (Freud, 1913a, p.235)
>
>
>Jung made a similar point about the relationship of depth psychology and
>politics in a more reactive vein in 1946 in his preface to a collection of
>his essays on Nazi Germany:
>
>    We are living in times of great disruption:
>    political passions are aflame, internal upheavals
>    have brought nations to the brink of chaos.... This
>    critical state of things has such a tremendous
>    influence on the psychic life of the individual
>    that the analyst ... feels the violence of its
>    impact even in the quiet of his consulting room.
>    ... The psychologist cannot avoid coming to grips
>    with contemporary history, even if his very soul
>    shrinks from the political uproar, the lying
>    propaganda, and the jarring speeches of the
>    demagogues. We need not mention his duties as a
>    citizen, which confront him with a similar task
>                        (CW 10, para. 11).
>
>At times, it seems that Freud and Jung were as interested in the broad sweep
>of cultural evolution and in an engagement with collective psychology as
>they were in their day-to-day work with clients. Certainly, there is a
>tension between their cultural and clinical projects and this is a tension
>that is still with their descendants today."
>
>~end quote~
>
>I feel the tension... not because of the clinical vs the cultural, but
>because of the fear of "political uproar, the lying propaganda, and the
>jarring speeches of the demagogues." including the demagogue in me.
>
>NATO out NOW!  listen to me!
>
>~~~
>
>The war mirrors inner turmoil in my life... but it is obscene in my opinion
>to somehow think of the war as a projection, as something in the imaginal
>world. It may be all that, but as a "westerner", in a "western" nation I
>think the focus must be on making a change, in our countries politics... in
>the way the war is propagandised here, in the way we are part of a
>hypnotized people, kept ignorant, undereducated.
>
>I am looking to reading the rest of the essay to see if Andrew Samuels
>speaks more directly to these dilemmas.
>
>Our sharing of war dreams is a form of searching for something other than
>personal salvation, I hope we keep that up... Anita, I want to get back to
>your dream, I started by researching Nebuchadnezzaar's dream, got nowhere,
>and then got lost in flu and cyberspace... oh and there is nothing wrong
>with personal salvation either -- do i make sense?
>
>
>Robert,
>
>I am an occasional lurker on Jung-L!  I saw that you invited people there to
>discuss the Samuels essay pre- the seminar.  I thought of writing there...
>however the sense of becoming overwhelmed came up as on other occasions... I
>can't really be in two places at once, however *that* is the Jung list and
>this is *exploring the psyche in cyberspace*.  I think this seminar relates
>to both in different ways.  These days this (Psyber-L) is a more enclosed
>space, and I notice how after some deliberation I simply want to stay put,
>even with this Jungian discussion.
>
>Who knows, we might even have some preliminaries in both these lists and
>then see each other in the more formally moderated environment of the
>Seminar.  Could be interesting.
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>> ~quote~
>>
>> Jung-Seminars
>>
>> The Jung-Seminars
>> The Next Jung-Seminar
>> Andrew Samuels will be leading a seminar from May 15-20, 1999, on the
>> subject of his article, "Countertransference, the Imaginal World, and the
>> Politics of the Sublime." Dr. Samuels is Professor of Analytical psychology
>> at the University of Essex and Visiting Professor of Psychoanalytic Studies
>> at London University. He is a Jungian training analyst, lecturer and
>> political consultant. His books include Jung and the Post-Jungians, A
>> Critical Dictionary of Jungian Analysis, The Plural Psyche, and The
>> Political Psyche. In 2000 he will publish The Secret Life of Politics.
>>
>> http://www.cgjung.com/jungsem.html
>>
>> ~end quote~
>>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:02:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Jung-Seminars ~ countertransference ~ politics ~ war and
              process
In-Reply-To:  <v01550106b345fbb29255@[207.54.160.214]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,

> I am so touched by your posting and have my own, tho very different,

I can see it is very different... and I find the difference hard to be with!
The main difference is that I do not see this as humanitarian bombing,
though I think such a thing might even exist in certain times and places.
Money spent on the attacks could have been used in far more humanitarian
ways... as Stephen posted yesterday:

| If peace is the aim, then the peacekeeper's rule should be
| the same as the medical profession's: First, do no harm.

I am an admirer of the work Noam Chomsky does and his points have made sense
to me.  He makes the same point, that no action would be more humanitarian
than the present action.  He also points out that in Turkey the US *arms*
the Serbian equivalent... The US has no record at all of humanitarian
interventions like this.

> Your political belief system around wanting NATO out now says to me
> that you value the nation state and it is inviolate (am I
> misconcluding?)...

Misconcluding, yes.  At least we might be able to clarify
misunderstanding... if not resolve difference...

I have no love of nations or nationalism at all, and humanitarian action
would be a good thing even against the will of inhumane governing powers.  I
would want such intervention to be effective and do more good than harm... I
don't think that is the case here.  Has it ever happened that outsiders have
been able to come in and create peace in a civil war via attack? NATO has
self-defence as its prime directive and has gone way beyond that.  I think
this is far darker and more evil, it is aggression disguised as
humanitarianism.

The analogy I heard was that bombing Belgrade is like bombing London if
there is trouble in Ireland, it simply would not help.

If not humanitarian, then what is it?  Is it a show of force designed to
keep up the "credibility" of NATO? Economic? A realignment of european
powers once again, with the real possibility of Russia coming in on this?
Very scary.  Is it nationalism in the USA, somehow catering to a streak in
the population that will respond with votes?


> if we take that to it's extreme then we allow ethnic
> cleansing within the borders no matter what and in my view support it by
> default

No, borders should not influence our compassion or willingness to take a
stand.  How to be of use is a big challenge.  There is a dispute as to
whether this is ethnic cleansing... a war, terrorism, conflict, violence is
admitted by both sides, but not the sort of Nazi master race philosophy of
Hitler.  To bring those terms in confuses this with other wars, and unhealed
wounds.  Those wounds play a part I guess.

> (because I hold a belief system that we are all connected)...I feel
> we are being asked as citizens of the globe to feel our collective
> connection (brought by the rising of the feminine maybe)...and yes, with
> this comes the asking of very tricky questions which pushes on the very
> structures apparently holding the chaos at bay...

There is a complex knot to untangle in our rhizome of interconnection, it is
not as you say, an either or situation.  Being against NATO's actions is not
pro ethnic cleansing etc.  I see nothing feminine here, it seems like a male
war on all sides.

> Is it a masculine/feminine dynamic being played out? the shift from
> either/or to synthesis?  to even Transformation, a reformulation of the
> collective psyche?
>
> I hear your deep feeling and I find it helpful to me in clarifying my own
> feelings...for me the position of humanitarianism juxtaposed to the Serbian
> dream of a Greater Serbia is a question of asking Serbians, could there be
> another way other than ethnic cleansing to accomplish this...it seems to me
> that is what all the diplomacy was about...which failed...I wonder why?

If i saw what you see, humanitarian intervention opposed to ethnic cleansing
I would share your feelings... even think of it as rising feminine, but I
see a different reality.

Phew...

~~~

Judith, I hope we can *be* with difference, because if we can't, then who
will bomb us into our senses?  Maybe this point by point debate is not a
good way to go, however I have found it of some benefit to simply air my
views.

Your post Steven, counterpointing snippets, was evocative.

~~~

BTW, have got a few more pages into the Samuels article, and it seems he
advocates that we can tune into the world as we tune into our clients, and
countertransferentially pick up on the state of the world.

(Let me verify the accuracy of this later)

Maybe.  I think it takes a lot of *investigation* of the world.  This is the
first time I have viewed a war through the net.  It is quite an experience.




Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:09:22 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: war and process, horror and soul
In-Reply-To:  <d96b2c8c.2450d55a@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl,

Thanks for your moving post.

I found this inspiring...

> I think most of all, when the shock of this passes, I hope that we can learn
> and pursue dialogues to attempt to address the unanswered needs of so many in
> this culture.  I don't even care what kind of dialogue, hostile,
> conciliatory, whatever.

Your desperation makes good sense, & throws a light on the value of
dialogue!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:28:11 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: war and process, horror and soul
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

  I live in the Deep South, where States Rights is strong.  If that
sentiment had prevailed we would still have slavery.
  People here are also much opposted to gun control.  There is even a
town where guns
are manditory.  We have a factory/high school the size of the one near
Denver going up
near us now
  I find it a little hard to appreciate what seems to be your
viewpoint.  Perhaps if
I lived in the mountain stronghold of Switzerland it would be earier.
            Nancy

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Apr 1999 01:29:32 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Jung-Seminars ~ countertransference ~ politics ~ war and
              process
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,
Thanks for your thoughtful response...I need time to process a bit except
for noting your revelation that you *find the difference (in our views)
hard to be with*...it struck me that *difference* is certainly one of the
highly charged elements in the Albanian/Serbian dynamic...and we are
dealing with that one here in the US at the moment with the school
bombing...

Judith with much to think about


>Judith,
>
>> I am so touched by your posting and have my own, tho very different,
>
>I can see it is very different... and I find the difference hard to be with!
>The main difference is that I do not see this as humanitarian bombing,
>though I think such a thing might even exist in certain times and places.
>Money spent on the attacks could have been used in far more humanitarian
>ways... as Stephen posted yesterday:
>
>| If peace is the aim, then the peacekeeper's rule should be
>| the same as the medical profession's: First, do no harm.
>
>I am an admirer of the work Noam Chomsky does and his points have made sense
>to me.  He makes the same point, that no action would be more humanitarian
>than the present action.  He also points out that in Turkey the US *arms*
>the Serbian equivalent... The US has no record at all of humanitarian
>interventions like this.
>
>> Your political belief system around wanting NATO out now says to me
>> that you value the nation state and it is inviolate (am I
>> misconcluding?)...
>
>Misconcluding, yes.  At least we might be able to clarify
>misunderstanding... if not resolve difference...
>
>I have no love of nations or nationalism at all, and humanitarian action
>would be a good thing even against the will of inhumane governing powers.  I
>would want such intervention to be effective and do more good than harm... I
>don't think that is the case here.  Has it ever happened that outsiders have
>been able to come in and create peace in a civil war via attack? NATO has
>self-defence as its prime directive and has gone way beyond that.  I think
>this is far darker and more evil, it is aggression disguised as
>humanitarianism.
>
>The analogy I heard was that bombing Belgrade is like bombing London if
>there is trouble in Ireland, it simply would not help.
>
>If not humanitarian, then what is it?  Is it a show of force designed to
>keep up the "credibility" of NATO? Economic? A realignment of european
>powers once again, with the real possibility of Russia coming in on this?
>Very scary.  Is it nationalism in the USA, somehow catering to a streak in
>the population that will respond with votes?
>
>
>> if we take that to it's extreme then we allow ethnic
>> cleansing within the borders no matter what and in my view support it by
>> default
>
>No, borders should not influence our compassion or willingness to take a
>stand.  How to be of use is a big challenge.  There is a dispute as to
>whether this is ethnic cleansing... a war, terrorism, conflict, violence is
>admitted by both sides, but not the sort of Nazi master race philosophy of
>Hitler.  To bring those terms in confuses this with other wars, and unhealed
>wounds.  Those wounds play a part I guess.
>
>> (because I hold a belief system that we are all connected)...I feel
>> we are being asked as citizens of the globe to feel our collective
>> connection (brought by the rising of the feminine maybe)...and yes, with
>> this comes the asking of very tricky questions which pushes on the very
>> structures apparently holding the chaos at bay...
>
>There is a complex knot to untangle in our rhizome of interconnection, it is
>not as you say, an either or situation.  Being against NATO's actions is not
>pro ethnic cleansing etc.  I see nothing feminine here, it seems like a male
>war on all sides.
>
>> Is it a masculine/feminine dynamic being played out? the shift from
>> either/or to synthesis?  to even Transformation, a reformulation of the
>> collective psyche?
>>
>> I hear your deep feeling and I find it helpful to me in clarifying my own
>> feelings...for me the position of humanitarianism juxtaposed to the Serbian
>> dream of a Greater Serbia is a question of asking Serbians, could there be
>> another way other than ethnic cleansing to accomplish this...it seems to me
>> that is what all the diplomacy was about...which failed...I wonder why?
>
>If i saw what you see, humanitarian intervention opposed to ethnic cleansing
>I would share your feelings... even think of it as rising feminine, but I
>see a different reality.
>
>Phew...
>
>~~~
>
>Judith, I hope we can *be* with difference, because if we can't, then who
>will bomb us into our senses?  Maybe this point by point debate is not a
>good way to go, however I have found it of some benefit to simply air my
>views.
>
>Your post Steven, counterpointing snippets, was evocative.
>
>~~~
>
>BTW, have got a few more pages into the Samuels article, and it seems he
>advocates that we can tune into the world as we tune into our clients, and
>countertransferentially pick up on the state of the world.
>
>(Let me verify the accuracy of this later)
>
>Maybe.  I think it takes a lot of *investigation* of the world.  This is the
>first time I have viewed a war through the net.  It is quite an experience.
>
>
>
>
>Walter
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Apr 1999 01:43:01 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Jung-Seminars ~ countertransference ~ politics ~ war and
              process
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter a P.S.

Hoping it doesn't come across flippant

>| If peace is the aim, then the peacekeeper's rule should be
>| the same as the medical profession's: First, do no harm.

And the first thing the medicals had to do to get to my tumor was crack
open my chest, collapse my lung, and once removed wire me back together...I
still have lung problems and my diaphram didn't go back to where it was
suppose to so long term breathing issues loom and I still have to deal with
this, but as the surgeon said it was the only way to get to the
tumor...Believe me if I had been able to find another way I would have, but
this was the state of medicine and I was in crisis...I see my situation as
my own responsibility as I ignored warning signs and don't get yearly check
ups so I paid a huge price

The Croatian Ambassador to the US said in a speach two days ago at one of
the Universities in Wash DC, that in fact the warning signs were ignored by
those outside which began 10 years ago

So it seems to be coming to pass that in the school shooting warning signs
were ignored

Judith sorting through the messiness of life

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:50:48 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Interconnection
In-Reply-To:  <v01550109b346cf89d363@[207.54.160.214]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,

  Re: Jung-Seminars ~ countertransference ~ politics ~ war and process
  Sat, 24 Apr 1999 01:43:01 -0400

> Hoping it doesn't come across flippant

Of course not --

> >| If peace is the aim, then the peacekeeper's rule should be
> >| the same as the medical profession's: First, do no harm.

You show, very personally, how the medic's maxim does not lead to a clear
path of action, in health or war. Dilemmas all the way.

I want to add a thought for now since I wrote...

You say:  "we are all connected" ... I have that sense.  Which means that
understandings of how we interconnect while connected are relevant.
Psychotherapy, parenting, police work, medicine all have codes of ethics
which separate intervention from invasion, and the ethics become more
important the closer we are, the  closer we come to intimacy and spiritual
core. Connected as we are we become, paradoxically, more conscious of the
our individual integrity as well. A tear in the whole, is a tear in each of
us. And vice versa.

    A dog starvd at his Masters Gate
    Predicts the ruin of the State

I mention this without knowing where it leads exactly, but having an
inkling, like Andrew Samuels, that we can put to use politically our ability
in the are of he psyche, in the transferences, (or in the tele as
psychodramatists would say,  or in the "dreaming up" as process oriented
therapists might say - as I learnt recently).

One of the tasks of the therapist is to keep the process in the room, in the
interpersonal relationship.  This can means doing complex work with people
who phone in, doctors, lawyers, parents.  Also with requests from the client
to be a witness, to attend exhibitions, to see family members.  The work of
keeping the psychotherapy integral, involves deep social work, because these
things have to be attended to in *some* way, often involving work on the
edge, knowing where the tidal zone ends and a tsunami would begin.

I did not know where this was heading, but just as I write heard the news
that NATO is, post the fact, rewriting its mission from defensive to
"strategic":

    "U.S. and NATO officials said the strategic concept to be
     adopted Saturday will reaffirm NATO's Cold War founding
     principle of mutual defense -- of members pledging to
     jointly defend any other member from attack.

    "But it will go beyond this to define a role for NATO
     outside of its borders when needed to contain new types
     of threats to the security of its members.

 NATO To Adopt New Mission, With Kosovo As Example

 http://nt.excite.com/news/r/990424/01/international-nato

~~~

Judith, while writing I am thinking of your story quoted again below... so
related to what we are talking about.  I hope these reflections we are
having, which I find painful, are -- healing, and, above all, doing no harm!
But who knows, as discussing your immediate physical difficulties in
connection with global difficulty may not be the right thing. I struggle to
hold my faith in dialogue.

I have no sense that the doctors in your case lost sight of the main work.
I have no indication that they were thinking about broader strategic goals
other than your heath.  I think our difference hangs on the fact that I
don't *trust* nations in this way.


> And the first thing the medicals had to do to get to my tumor was crack
> open my chest, collapse my lung, and once removed wire me back together...I
> still have lung problems and my diaphram didn't go back to where it was
> suppose to so long term breathing issues loom and I still have to deal with
> this, but as the surgeon said it was the only way to get to the
> tumor...Believe me if I had been able to find another way I would have, but
> this was the state of medicine and I was in crisis...I see my situation as
> my own responsibility as I ignored warning signs and don't get yearly check
> ups so I paid a huge price

~~~

> So it seems to be coming to pass that in the school shooting warning signs
> were ignored

I would think that one of the warning signs is the state of our culture, our
nations, our foreign policy, our economic disparity and the mind numbing
imperative of greed in advertising, media, that all combine to make lives
hollow. Sheryl mentioned denial, and I think that it is good that we are
discussing these things here.  I find it easier to avoid it all! Especially
my own thoughts on these matters.


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:59:45 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: war and process, horror and soul
In-Reply-To:  <3720E5EB.875A9B55@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

You wrote:

>   I live in the Deep South, where States Rights is strong.  If that
> sentiment had prevailed we would still have slavery.

>   People here are also much opposted to gun control.  There is even a
> town where guns  are manditory.  We have a factory/high school the
> size of the one near Denver going up near us now

How do you see these things interconnect with the current events in Europe,
I am sure they do, and I'd like to hear more.  You will know more than many
of us about the US history and the current dynamics in the South.


~~~

>   I find it a little hard to appreciate what seems to be your
> viewpoint.

Which aspects of what I have been saying are you thinking of here.  What
does it seem to be to you?  Perhaps we are still in the realm of
missconnection, misunderstanding -- some of this might have been clarified
in my recent posts.  Please note that I am also voicing my own doubt about
having a viewpoint at all...


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:28:30 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: war and process, horror and soul
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  Walter, all, I am probably getting over my head here, but I am
disturbed by all this
criticism after the fact.  20/20 hindsight.
  Last night I watched a news segment where a reporter walked as near
the edge as
possible in questioning a police officer as to whether additional lives
had been lost
because of an over-cautious intervention in the Colorado school where
some 30 bombs
had been planted apparently in an effort to destroy the whole school and
everyone in it.
  The NRA says and its supporters say that if guns are controlled,
criminals will simply
steal them.  To me this is like saying that since there are robbers
wanting to break into
our houses we should leave the doors unlocked.
  The UN is the closest thing we have to a World Government.  It is thus
analogous to
sovereign nation as the U.S. Federal Govt is to the 50 states.
  There would be no armed intervention if individual states and nations
had their way
against larger more representative bodies.  In fact there would be no
intervention at
all.
  The Chamberlains of the world would prevail instead of the Churchills.
  Where were the critics when the decisions were being made?  Had they
worked themselves
into positions of power where they could ensure more humane actions were
taken?  Where were they when the 'warning signs' began to show at the
schools finally horrified by acts of student violence.
  And in the aftermath specifically what were the more humane steps, the
preventative
steps that might have been taken?
  Here in the south there is still bitterness over the civil war.  There
are still
arguments over whether to fly the Confederate flag.  But we have black
state senators
and our colleges are full of students, not only black but from all
nations.  There are
no longer separate bathrooms, schools, the blacks are no longer force to
sit in the
balcony of movie theaters or churches in August when the heat rises.
   The virtue of 20/20 hindsight is to learn to do better in the future,
not to make
our leaders afraid to take any action at all.
   Are we learning?  What are we learning?

   Nancy

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:56:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Interconnection
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter and all,

>Judith,
>
>  Re: Jung-Seminars ~ countertransference ~ politics ~ war and process
>  Sat, 24 Apr 1999 01:43:01 -0400
>
>> Hoping it doesn't come across flippant
>
>Of course not --
>
>> >| If peace is the aim, then the peacekeeper's rule should be
>> >| the same as the medical profession's: First, do no harm.
>
>You show, very personally, how the medic's maxim does not lead to a clear
>path of action, in health or war. Dilemmas all the way.

Certainly difficult to probe the greyness and come up with a specific
action...one then is put in the position of having those sitting on the
side lines ready to give their hindsight evaluations


>
>I want to add a thought for now since I wrote...
>
>You say:  "we are all connected" ... I have that sense.  Which means that
>understandings of how we interconnect while connected are relevant.
>Psychotherapy, parenting, police work, medicine all have codes of ethics
>which separate intervention from invasion, and the ethics become more
>important the closer we are, the  closer we come to intimacy and spiritual
>core. Connected as we are we become, paradoxically, more conscious of the
>our individual integrity as well. A tear in the whole, is a tear in each of
>us. And vice versa.

I agree...which is what I was attempting to get at when I said somewhere I
had my own experience of learning how I was participating in injustice
caused by a distorttion in my ethics...I was understanding the other
person's point of view which caused their action which violated me and by
not holding them accountable I thus contributed to injustice

>
>    A dog starvd at his Masters Gate
>    Predicts the ruin of the State
>
>I mention this without knowing where it leads exactly, but having an
>inkling, like Andrew Samuels, that we can put to use politically our ability
>in the are of he psyche, in the transferences, (or in the tele as
>psychodramatists would say,  or in the "dreaming up" as process oriented
>therapists might say - as I learnt recently).
>
>One of the tasks of the therapist is to keep the process in the room, in the
>interpersonal relationship.  This can means doing complex work with people
>who phone in, doctors, lawyers, parents.  Also with requests from the client
>to be a witness, to attend exhibitions, to see family members.  The work of
>keeping the psychotherapy integral, involves deep social work, because these
>things have to be attended to in *some* way, often involving work on the
>edge, knowing where the tidal zone ends and a tsunami would begin.
>
>I did not know where this was heading, but just as I write heard the news
>that NATO is, post the fact, rewriting its mission from defensive to
>"strategic":

Yes, Walter, it was my sense that the impass in negotiations about Kosovo
was at the unseen level creating reformulation...I listened to the short
speeches of all the NATO members at the opening of the 50th anniversary and
to a man they spoke of shared values and upholding these in the coming
years...that this is what binds them together...they all don't agree on the
bombing and certainly grounds troups and each country has their own set of
complexities but I for one find it significant and interesting from the
perspective of cooperation that the agreed superordinate is *values*

Now one can disagree with the perpetuating of democracy and freedom and the
rule of law but this is the basic interconnection of the countries
participating

>    "U.S. and NATO officials said the strategic concept to be
>     adopted Saturday will reaffirm NATO's Cold War founding
>     principle of mutual defense -- of members pledging to
>     jointly defend any other member from attack.
>
>    "But it will go beyond this to define a role for NATO
>     outside of its borders when needed to contain new types
>     of threats to the security of its members.

>
> NATO To Adopt New Mission, With Kosovo As Example
>
> http://nt.excite.com/news/r/990424/01/international-nato
>
>~~~
>
>Judith, while writing I am thinking of your story quoted again below... so
>related to what we are talking about.  I hope these reflections we are
>having, which I find painful, are -- healing, and, above all, doing no harm!
>But who knows, as discussing your immediate physical difficulties in
>connection with global difficulty may not be the right thing. I struggle to
>hold my faith in dialogue.

Walter, in no way do I find this painful to me...anyway I find the
micromacro significant...it is my pattern reflexive...always looking for
signs...for dots which may seem obscure, connecting...one of my skillsets
is seeing the interconnections...in my computer years I was sought after by
owners to tell them what I *saw* in their companies, mostly not having
anything to do with computer installation
>
>I have no sense that the doctors in your case lost sight of the main work.
>I have no indication that they were thinking about broader strategic goals
>other than your heath.  I think our difference hangs on the fact that I
>don't *trust* nations in this way.

Well, *main work* by their definition and their protocols...certainly no
one was concerned with anything other than my body

I think *trust* is the crux issue...My trust is based in what I see
evolving...not that I'm correct...I remember the night I sat and watched
the Berlin Wall come down and commentators kept commenting that this event
came out of nowhere...to me it came out of the inner connection of people
who wanted to experience freedom...and it manifested, messy
>
>
>> And the first thing the medicals had to do to get to my tumor was crack
>> open my chest, collapse my lung, and once removed wire me back together...I
>> still have lung problems and my diaphram didn't go back to where it was
>> suppose to so long term breathing issues loom and I still have to deal with
>> this, but as the surgeon said it was the only way to get to the
>> tumor...Believe me if I had been able to find another way I would have, but
>> this was the state of medicine and I was in crisis...I see my situation as
>> my own responsibility as I ignored warning signs and don't get yearly check
>> ups so I paid a huge price
>
>~~~
>
>> So it seems to be coming to pass that in the school shooting warning signs
>> were ignored
>
>I would think that one of the warning signs is the state of our culture, our
>nations, our foreign policy, our economic disparity and the mind numbing
>imperative of greed in advertising, media, that all combine to make lives
>hollow. Sheryl mentioned denial, and I think that it is good that we are
>discussing these things here.  I find it easier to avoid it all! Especially
>my own thoughts on these matters.

Oh, but there are such signs of hope...and I don't mean to sound like this
mushy optomist

Last night (won't everyone here be happy when I'm off the couch with the tv
off:-) Ted Koppel set up a connection between the people in I think Paduka
KY who had the killings a year ago and a group of the Littleton
people...the purpose was to give the people of Littleton the opportunity to
ask what to expect as they went forward...I sat listening to the Paduka
parents still in anger and frustration while their children would say
things like "keeping with your friends will help" and "it will get better
with time"...a Littleton elementary teacher sitting quietly until the end
made the observation (whcih I was screaming into the tv) "did you notice
how the parents won't let go, but the children are going on"...

I then am reminded of Stephen's comment about the bombing creating "little
terriorists" out of the Serbian children...It is my trust that there is as
much possibility that those children will grow up and say *enuf*

I suppose this is based in my experience with my own child and how he came
to teach me and he continues to do so

Judith trusting in the children of the world
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:00:16 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Interconnection
In-Reply-To:  <v0155010bb34748def1e8@[207.54.160.214]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

(By the way Walter, I'm still distilling!)

The web has been my information source, not the TV. So, as my own intuitive
gleening has proceeded in pace with the multiplicity of 'sides' and views
and interpretations. I'm aware of some of the great complexities,
paradoxes, and multi-dimensional interpenetration of modes, sociological,
psychological, political, and personal, (to conceive them broadly).

I'm biased to favor a *center* at which the implied tensions and
oppositions are all alive and evolving. This is also the place and point at
which, personally, I can honestly state I don't know what "should be done".
At the same time, I comprehend most decisions, like wave functions
collapsing, are singular. They are distinctly aimed at both supposed
concrete objectives and all the results which accrue as unintended
consequences. (As much as those kinds of consequences may not be
anticipated, may surprise, and may even represent novel outcomes, or at
least, are of the unknown.)

***

I've, several weeks after suffering my own personal humanitarian shock with
respect to Kosovo, become completely unfused from the simplistic rationales
offered as propaganda. Is not propaganda a kind of complex, and a mask for
the more subtle, if not brutal, thinking and feeling behind the scenes? Old
school belicosity intensifies along familiar lines; the trick is to ignore
the propaganda and its conveniently 'moving target' reasons. It rings dully
as the official Nato line, paranoid progressive posturing, worn out
isolationism, or self-serving misinformation from either side.

***

I comprehend Clinton's walk along the razor's edge, while not exactly an
expression of a differentiated and deep feminine  :-) is, nonetheless,
understandable as having something to do with  his distaste for involvement
of ground troops in this already messed up conflict. Something in him is
having him resist the urge to destroy Yugoslavia to 'save' it. His lesser
furious bombardment is a novel tactic. It may end up destroying Yugoslavia,
but a ground war would very probably do so. (The 'air wars alone never
work' gang: they may be undergoing a failure of imagination!) Clinton
senses it would be a quagmire; his fear is valuable.

***

This is a complex picture clarified in terms of psychology for me by what I
know of the background to the recent history, but also put in clear
symbolic terms in this way: Kosovo symbolizes the "cosmological center" of
the Serbian grand fantasy. (Yes, Milosovec has manipulated this symbolism
for his own purposes. He is a combination of mobster and evangelist who has
ordained himself the protector of the mother country.)

It is a bit more outlandish to suggest that a global extension of shared
values backed by the magnificent arms industry and military might of the
United States and NATO, itself able to be projected over the world in the
military equivalent of multitasking, is connected to the cosmological
principle of "America", "land of the free". But, for purposes of intuiting
the lower forces possibly in play here, it's a workable imagining for me.

Unintended consequences of war accumulate and may come to include
environmental damage, serious disruptions of the agricultural industry that
feeds the Yugoslavs, and destruction which will necessitate at some point
repairs and reconstruction that will cost billions of dollars. The onus is
on both Milosovec and NATO for this violence against the 'feminine'. These
ill effects will accumulate for both Serbian and Kosovar Yugoslavia. (It
hasn't been mentioned anywhere that I've seen, but this is the worst
bombing a first world country has been subjected to since world war II.)

***

This psychological idea about the cosmological center of a collective
culture has been the principle obsession of my creative god complex for
four weeks. Because of the internet, to some extent the global average,
(just a way of characterizing the collective engaged expressively with each
other on the net), seems to have as their point of gravity *at the center*
a sense that this Balkan crisis is not resolvable like a simple lock opened
with a simple key. Since the function is collapsing into decisiveness,
there is a certain amount of dread as well as a sense that this is an "old
way" of 'being' being played out.

The prototypical American image is the cavalry riding in to save the
pioneers; this time around it seems to be a "that was the way things were
done in the last millenium" kind of response. Yet, Clinton's sense that a
ground war is a very bad idea is novel. It may be naive to expect the
mobsterista Milosovec who cradles Serbian aspirations and forgives
beastiness, to back down, but, for now, the unwillingness to start a world
war is...encouraging.

Negotiation failed; if it was tried at all. Agreed: the cauldron now,
reformulation tomorrow. But, what would a deeply ensouled response be?

***

How many citizens of NATO countries would drop everything and constitute an
unarmed peace force in the Balkans? Wouldn't that be something! Say 100,000
civilians from several dozen countries showing the Yugoslavians how to get
along.

As I said, I'm distilling. . .

***

best to all,

Stephen

ps. As for stopping ethnic cleansing, NATO seems quite clueless and have
been so with respect to the Balkans for ten years, and, umm, counting.
Meanwhile, in Turkey, the Kurds are killed with American weaponry. Go
figure.

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:28:21 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Listener editorial
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://www.listener.co.nz/editorial.asp

Vol 229 No 3077 May 01 1999 - MAy 7 1999

I thought this was a pretty good summary.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:52:22 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Website Persona
In-Reply-To:  <v01550135b340957561f0@[207.54.181.88]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Psyberfolk,

I know we are in the middle of yet more unfinished threads... I think that
is the nature of the beast here.  I have thoughts on that... for another
post.  Here is new topic.

Website persona.

Do you have a web page?  Is it "You", is it your Work, is it something else
again?  I want to discuss this.  I don't really have a web page... Psybernet
has a web page... but it is a mess, maybe that's ok, maybe not.  Here is the
story of Psybernet, by way of background to its life online (and mine in its
shadow).

In 1992 I was blown away by the potential for attending to the psyche in
cyberspace, I had a glimpse of the possibilities in Compuserve, not so much
in MedSig 16 (anyone know it?) as in a Forum called OZCIS (anyone know that?
Do these places still exist?  Oscis was a software program that did
excellent offline reading, it was free and there was a camaraderie around
its development that was fun! and erudite at times.  But none of these
places had a clue about depth psychology.

I wanted to develop psychotherapy, in groups, online professionally, so I
did a few silly things.  I spent  my life savings on getting an Internet
address, setting up a BBS called Psybernet, and started Psyber-L to explore
the psyche online.  It was silly because I spent too much money, chose to go
with a local BBS, & Fidonet, rather than the incredibly expensive and
unfriendly Internet.  The worst thing of all was that I got a business
development grant from the local govt agency that paid for half of
everything including the wages for a friend who helped me set up the BBS.
One of the things we did was to set up a company, this was a prerequisite
for the grant, hence Psybernet Ltd. is still a living entity, with a debt
and 100 shares, I own 99 Kate owns 1. (She deserves more, but then maybe not
as they represent debt!) (Wanna buy some shares in Internet stock hehehe?)

Some people are still on this list who were there in the BBS days, though
not the very first bunch.  Eventually I exported the list from my own server
onto the Internet, finally shut down the gratuitous machine and just used
Lsoft to do this list (Now we'd probably be better off on eGroups) and set
up the web pages instead of having the "file areas" on the BBS.

On that BBS we sure cut our teeth.  All that geeky stuff for a non geek was
interesting, but most of all the DRAMAS!  The friend who I had paid out of
the grant... was active on the list (or Echos as they were called), as were
some other friends, and my Therapist! (sadly blurred boundary there) and
Stuart, who some of you know... we got into the most awful fallings out and
sad desperate relationships and leavings and banishments you can imagine!  I
learnt about the psyche in cyberspace!

All this is just background to my current questions, about me, Psybernet,
and the interrelationship via a website... what is the Psybernet Website
for?  What is the Company... you are all good company here! and as a sort of
hobby outlet I love this place, will continue my questioning here forever I
think, I am not questioning this list, but Psybernet, the project.

And who an I in this?  I am not an entrepreneur, though I have
entrepreneurial dreams and the occasional seizure.  I am a psychotherapist.
I do that job with integrity, pleasure and ease.  I am not on the web or in
cyberspace in that capacity. "I" am not on the web at all really.  I
consider myself present online in this Psyber-L and in such things as the
Dreamevent. I do not have a "Home Page". I feel clear about me as a
husband, father, lover, homemaker -- I don't do that online too much.  I am
clear about Walter Logeman the psychotherapist...

I hide behind Psybernet online, yet Psybernet is really not easy to grasp, a
shadow.  I feel like the shadow of a shadow.  Should / could I develop a
clearer online persona that captures what I do online?
  http://www.psybernet.co.nz/webpersona.htm   (being playful here, but would
you like a page like that? I find it a psychologically tricky thing to do!
-- let alone to add pictures)  I am writing some cyber things, that is good.
I am extending my psychotherapy with some emails with some of my clients -
that is interesting.  I am working with Dan with some of his GroupSense
  http://www.groupsense.co.nz   knowledge capability projects... I want to
have an easy harmony with my persona and myself.

Any one else have these sort of dilemmas?  :)


How is this for persona, beautifully understated net celebrity:

  http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/#top

And this one, from an interesting man:

  http://www.rheingold.com/howard/




Walter

~ There are pros and cons to being ambivalent ~



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:30:15 EDT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: war and school and process, horror and soul
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Judith, Walter...

I want to thank you both for responding to my post last week about Columbine.
 I had not been reading your dialogue about Kosovo, not because of lack of
time, but because of lack of desire.  This morning I moved out of that zone
and read most of your dialogue.  I can see a few links between the two, even
though my Columbine post felt like it was more a cry out in the dark.

I'm not sure, Judith, whether it is the feminine, the heart, the intellect...
or just some balance?  As more of the Columbine story is enfolding, my
feminine (if that's what it is) empathizes and sympathizes with the two young
men who did the planning and shooting, and their families, and the words,
sticks and stones aimed at pointing out their *differences*.

My immediate reaction, when I first heard about the shootings, was that the
two young men had no connection or understanding of death, not of their own
or of the other students they shot.  They have grown up in a culture in which
they watch movies or television shows, and the actors may be killed, but they
will return next week in another show, as another character.  They project
themselves into characters in video games that are routinely *killed* but
with the push of a button get new *lives.*  On the 'net, they can change
identities with another push of a button.  Knowing this, my thought was that
they would never know the consequences of their actions, because they were
never taught that, in reality, they had no more *lives.*

This disconnection also seems to me to extend to what is happening in Kosovo.
 I feel shame in admitting that to me, it's been (and mostly still is) a big
video game.  Laser bombs shooting the bad guys buildings.  I did feel a
limited connection of complete disdain recently, when it was mentioned that
ground troops might need to be sent in.  My connection was, well, what the
heck kind of war is this that we wouldn't commit our beliefs to actually
giving up any lives of those on *our* side?

In a message dated 4/23/99 8:58:49 AM Mountain Daylight Time, judithb@APK.NET
writes:

>  Time will tell, but I for one find a reason to heal rising in me...and a
>  need to participate...a surprising place to be since I have spent a
>  lifetime working at the inner level and teaching at the edge of the map
>  which was completed...in retrospect I see these latest months of health
>  crisis for me have been about looking for an entry point from my couch to
>  the *outside*, for a reason to stay on the earth...and that reason begins
>  to emerge...
>

Judith, I hope you are well and the reasons continue to emerge for you.
Following all the "media"ization of Columbine last week, I could almost feel
the haze of apathy and feeling of helplessness begin to descend over me
again.  I have some ideas about what this apathy is about and what I will do
with it... one way is to contribute more frequently to Psyber-L.

Is this feeling something of what you and Walter have been discussing, but
more in reference to Kosovo?

Am I on topic here at all?
Sheryl

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Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1999 17:44:47 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Thank you
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Psyber-people,
Thank you for your recent kind words and sympathies regarding my
brother's death. I'm just not into posting anything these days although I
am reading along abit here and there. There seemed to be something in
each of your responses that I truly appreciated - each of you said
something which touched me in some way - or made me cry - or that I will
remember. I wish I didn't feel so sad - but I do. It's just something
which has to be lived through as some of you have already been through.

Thank you all for your kindnesses.

Chery;

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Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:56:21 -0400
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: war and school and process, horror and soul
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All,

>Judith, Walter...
>
>I want to thank you both for responding to my post last week about Columbine.
> I had not been reading your dialogue about Kosovo, not because of lack of
>time, but because of lack of desire.  This morning I moved out of that zone
>and read most of your dialogue.  I can see a few links between the two, even
>though my Columbine post felt like it was more a cry out in the dark.
>
>I'm not sure, Judith, whether it is the feminine, the heart, the intellect...
>or just some balance?  As more of the Columbine story is enfolding, my
>feminine (if that's what it is) empathizes and sympathizes with the two young
>men who did the planning and shooting, and their families, and the words,
>sticks and stones aimed at pointing out their *differences*.

What I was struggling to articulate, Sheryl, was the huge need for
humanitarian aid coupled with the onslaught of the bombs, maybe cheaply but
I was seeing the nurturing with the waring...that which is associated with
the feminine and the masculine...that the same airfields and cargo planes
were having to be shared by the food and supplies needed for the Albanians
and the requirements of the military...it was requiring a balancing act to
serve both...

In the meantime I too have empathy for the young men and their families...
>
>My immediate reaction, when I first heard about the shootings, was that the
>two young men had no connection or understanding of death, not of their own
>or of the other students they shot.  They have grown up in a culture in which
>they watch movies or television shows, and the actors may be killed, but they
>will return next week in another show, as another character.  They project
>themselves into characters in video games that are routinely *killed* but
>with the push of a button get new *lives.*  On the 'net, they can change
>identities with another push of a button.  Knowing this, my thought was that
>they would never know the consequences of their actions, because they were
>never taught that, in reality, they had no more *lives.*

With the diary entries being revealed, the grandiosity of the fantacy is
breathtaking to me...but then I am not familiar with the video games or the
movies with violence...I asked my 26 year old son today how he had been
affected by those (even with me protesting his watching) and he said he
just knew it wasn't real...I think there is more to it for him as well as
others...
>
>This disconnection also seems to me to extend to what is happening in Kosovo.
> I feel shame in admitting that to me, it's been (and mostly still is) a big
>video game.  Laser bombs shooting the bad guys buildings.  I did feel a
>limited connection of complete disdain recently, when it was mentioned that
>ground troops might need to be sent in.  My connection was, well, what the
>heck kind of war is this that we wouldn't commit our beliefs to actually
>giving up any lives of those on *our* side?

>In a message dated 4/23/99 8:58:49 AM Mountain Daylight Time, judithb@APK.NET
>writes:
>
>>  Time will tell, but I for one find a reason to heal rising in me...and a
>>  need to participate...a surprising place to be since I have spent a
>>  lifetime working at the inner level and teaching at the edge of the map
>>  which was completed...in retrospect I see these latest months of health
>>  crisis for me have been about looking for an entry point from my couch to
>>  the *outside*, for a reason to stay on the earth...and that reason begins
>>  to emerge...
>>
>
>Judith, I hope you are well and the reasons continue to emerge for you.
>Following all the "media"ization of Columbine last week, I could almost feel
>the haze of apathy and feeling of helplessness begin to descend over me
>again.  I have some ideas about what this apathy is about and what I will do
>with it... one way is to contribute more frequently to Psyber-L.

It continues to be an intense time and I am staying engaged...what I find
fascinating as I watch 6 stations for hours are the dots which I am
collecting from the interviews...so much information being revealed by the
hour...I mentioned to a friend a few days ago it felt like a Shakespearian
tragedy...and then today the parents of the young girl who was killed after
saying she believed in God said that she was in the library reading
Shakespear at the time

>
>Is this feeling something of what you and Walter have been discussing, but
>more in reference to Kosovo?
>
>Am I on topic here at all?
<Sheryl<

Sure seems so to me and it feels good to have your contributions adding to
the mix here

Meanwhile I am left contemplating the dynamics of boundaries... that which
NATO has chosen to draw (rightly or wrongly) and the lack of boundaries (on
many levels) revealed through the Littleton tragedy...

Judith exploring self-organizing systems

>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:42:26 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: war and school and process, horror and soul
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  Inanima

The singing of missiles..
A round, where one begins
   before another ceases.
Merry each
  to fullfill its purpose.
So long a journey.
So short a fall.
So dramatic a finale...

With each,
  rubble sprays on rubble.
Some tinged with red
  to mellow into rust.
Sunlight strains through dust
  of factories that were.
In a sense...
   each returning home.

Fragments of steel,
  no longer file cases,
  beige-flaked with folders.
The fingers of a clerics hand,
  twitchless.
Too strewn to wring...  or pray.
Born to feed...
  the falconiformes



Nancy 4/27/99

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