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To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:21:30 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Back from the hills
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter and all,
>Judith you wrote "...I'm in another health crisis so lovely news of any kind
>brings a healing bath"
>
>I'm sorry to hear that, and also pleased you mention it here.  I hope you are
>attending to it well and that you are healing, even if there is no cure. In a
>way our various crisis or major life experiences make up our collective here...
>and you are such a part of that.  If it is important or right for you I
>hope you
>share your struggles and journey here.

I'm deeply in it tho the medicals don't know what is going on and staying
connected to whatever is to be revealed...initially frustrated as I was
just beginning to claim my life after the tumor bout...then remembering
that journey and what I learned I was able to touch that place of peace and
acceptance and engage the process, not easy and in fact asking all of me
once again...I feel it will all make sense at some point though there
aren't enuf dots to connect at this point...I have spent 4 weeks in bed one
of those weeks in the hospital keeping the heat turned up...I learned to
listen to my body from the last bout and the rampaging infection seemed to
need to be sweated out...anyway there is a 3 inch by 2 inch hole in my neck
which is now in the process of healing...as always when one is given a
challenge support is given and I am staying with friends who are nursing
me...so that's a little of what is going on...
>
>While on our adventure in the hills i thought a lot about my life in
>"psyberspace" as i knew i would.  How important this list is in my imaginal
>space... it is where i am most at home on the net, even though i hang out in
>other places... I think the main reason is that its theme... "exploring the
>psyche in cyberspace" puts name to the very deepest drives and urges that
>are in
>me, list or no list. Kate calls me an evolutionist.
>
>I reflected on the quiet here before i left, and how the presence of the list's
>space is important to me.  Knowing it is here allows me to think into it
>even as
>i am walking into a rainstorm, miles away from electricity!

Interesting how for weeks I couldn't get on line but I felt the list's
presence...evryone had given me such support before and I can still feel
the resonance of those prayers
>
>How different that might be for new people here.  A silence might just
>seem like
>a dead space, or go unnoticed.  If you are new here and have hardly seen a post
>you may like to search the archives for the word "silence" which we have
>used as
>a mantra at times to reach into our essence.
>
>Blessings Judith...

And to you and all all, Walter
Judith
>
>Walter
>_____________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman
>Counsellor & Psychotherapist
>Harley Chambers
>PO Box 13 543
>Christchurch NZ
>Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
>walter@psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:41:52 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Back from the hills
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>I'm deeply in it tho the medicals don't know what
is going on and staying
<br>connected to whatever is to be revealed...initially frustrated as I
was
<br>just beginning to claim my life after the tumor bout...</blockquote>
N: I'm sorry you're having a tough time again.&nbsp; I wondered (knowing
a little about the
<br>hours and work involved in reheasals) how you could find the energy.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>then remembering
<br>that journey and what I learned I was able to touch that place of peace
and
<br>acceptance and engage the process, not easy and in fact asking all
of me
<br>once again...I feel it will all make sense at some point though there
<br>aren't enuf dots to connect at this point...I have spent 4 weeks in
bed one
<br>of those weeks in the hospital keeping the heat turned up..</blockquote>
N: Amazing that medicals would let you choose to do this, though when I
was in the
<br>hospital last December the nurse did turn on the air conditioner when
I objected to taking
<br>tylenol for my fever.&nbsp; I prefer to let fevers run their course,
at least as long as they stay
<br>under 102 and other signs are ok.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>.I learned to
<br>listen to my body from the last bout and the rampaging infection seemed
to
<br>need to be sweated out...anyway there is a 3 inch by 2 inch hole in
my neck
<br>which is now in the process of healing...</blockquote>
N: It sounds as though you had had to have surgery for some sort of tumor.
<p>Walter wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<br>>While on our adventure in the hills i thought a lot about my life
in
<br>>"psyberspace" as i knew i would.&nbsp; How important this list is
in my imaginal
<br>>space... it is where i am most at home on the net, even though i hang
out in
<br>>other places... I think the main reason is that its theme... "exploring
the
<br>>psyche in cyberspace" puts name to the very deepest drives and urges
that
<br>>are in
<br>>me, list or no list. Kate calls me an evolutionist.
<br>>
<br>>I reflected on the quiet here before i left, and how the presence
of the list's
<br>>space is important to me.&nbsp; Knowing it is here allows me to think
into it
<br>>even as
<br>>i am walking into a rainstorm, miles away from electricity!
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
N: Seems to me this List has been awfully quiet for an awfully long time.&nbsp;
Wish I had
<br>something terribly 'stimulating' to say, since I rather miss the discourse
here.
<p>Best Wishes to all,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Nancy
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>____________________________________________________________
<br>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
<br>here:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html">http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html</a></blockquote>
</html>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:50:47 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Back from the hills
In-Reply-To:  <36E04FA0.6393524D@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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    I'm deeply in it tho the medicals don't know what is going on
    and staying connected to whatever is to be
    revealed...initially frustrated as I was just beginning to
    claim my life after the tumor bout...


N: I'm sorry you're having a tough time again.  I wondered
(knowing a little about the hours and work involved in reheasals)
how you could find the energy.


    then remembering that journey and what I learned I was able
    to touch that place of peace and acceptance and engage the
    process, not easy and in fact asking all of me once again...I
    feel it will all make sense at some point though there aren't
    enuf dots to connect at this point...I have spent 4 weeks in
    bed one of those weeks in the hospital keeping the heat
    turned up..


N: Amazing that medicals would let you choose to do this, though
when I was in the hospital last December the nurse did turn on
the air conditioner when I objected to taking tylenol for my
fever.  I prefer to let fevers run their course, at least as long
as they stay under 102 and other signs are ok.


    I learned to listen to my body from the last bout and the
    rampaging infection seemed to need to be sweated out...anyway
    there is a 3 inch by 2 inch hole in my neck which is now in
    the process of healing...


N: It sounds as though you had had to have surgery for some sort
of tumor.


Walter wrote:


>While on our adventure in the hills i thought a lot about my life in
>"psyberspace" as i knew i would.  How important this list is in my imaginal
>space... it is where i am most at home on the net, even though i hang out in
>other places... I think the main reason is that its theme... "exploring the
>psyche in cyberspace" puts name to the very deepest drives and urges that
>are in me, list or no list. Kate calls me an evolutionist.
>
>I reflected on the quiet here before i left, and how the presence of the list's
>space is important to me.  Knowing it is here allows me to think into it
>even as i am walking into a rainstorm, miles away from electricity!


N: Seems to me this List has been awfully quiet for an awfully
long time.  Wish I had something terribly 'stimulating' to say,
since I rather miss the discourse here.


Best Wishes to all,      Nancy


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:55:32 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      HTML
In-Reply-To:  <36E04FA0.6393524D@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy

Your post looked beautiful in my HTML reader, but not everyone
can read that easily, and we need to keep posts in plain text
here, so they are easy to search, quote, and don't take up all
that extra space.

I have reformed your post so it now looks much as it did in HTML.

Others please note the reformed post is from Nancy, though it
looks as if it is from me.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:13:54 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: HTML
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp; Apparently I have transgressed though I have no idea how and now
rather wish I
<br>hadn't posted.
<br>&nbsp; Walter, the only difference I could see between 'my message'
and your repeat of it,
<br>was that in the first Judith's parts were lined with blue at the left.&nbsp;
On your reposting
<br>either mine or Judith's were inset.&nbsp; I haven't a clue how to do
that except most laboriously.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sorry if I've erred, but as usual even sorrier to receive
one of your public repremands.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Most sincerely,&nbsp; Nancy
<p>Walter Logeman wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Nancy
<p>Your post looked beautiful in my HTML reader, but not everyone
<br>can read that easily, and we need to keep posts in plain text
<br>here, so they are easy to search, quote, and don't take up all
<br>that extra space.
<p>I have reformed your post so it now looks much as it did in HTML.
<p>Others please note the reformed post is from Nancy, though it
<br>looks as if it is from me.
<p>Walter
<br>__________________________________________________________________
<br>Walter Logeman&nbsp; walter@psybernet.co.nz&nbsp; <a href="http://www.psybernet.co.nz">http://www.psybernet.co.nz</a>
<p>____________________________________________________________
<br>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
<br>here:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html">http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html</a></blockquote>
</html>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:25:03 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: HTML
In-Reply-To:  <36E07342.60F7AADA@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

No transgression!  Your post is fine, and I for one am pleased
you post!  Your email program has somehow set itself to HTML.
That is all,  I'll discuss this off list.

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Mar 1999 21:22:01 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Dream:  Hosting 2 lists.
In-Reply-To:  <36E04FA0.6393524D@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Here is a dream I had last night.

I was the host of two lists each list was of mountaineers?

One list had six members or so in their party, I did not have to
do much.  The other list had only two, a solo climber and an old
mountaineer.  I had to assist the old mountaineer, who was simply
watching the young one climb via the emails, which somehow
arrived from the man on the mountain, to contribute so that the
over all effect of the list worked, the story of the climb, and
comments from the old man.  I back channelled the old man and
that was the only intervention in that list.  At one point he
complained about his ailments, I said to him, describe each
feeling really accurately as you have it. His posts seemed
beautiful when he did that, and made a counterpoint to the
extreme health and fitness of the heroic climber.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Mar 1999 02:31:12 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      (fwd) Cyberculture Studies
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

David Silver, who I have (briefly) met online in other contexts has asked me to
forward this to Psyber-l, it looks interesting and on topic so here it is:


== cut here ==

List members,

The Resource Center for Cyberculture Studies is an online, non-profit
organization whose purpose is to research, study, teach, support, and
create diverse and dynamic elements of cyberculture. Recent additions
and current works-in-progress include the following:

  * A fully updated list of Spring 99 university and college-level
    courses in cyberculture;

  * Four new full length book reviews:  Anne Balsamo, TECHNOLOGIES OF
    THE GENDERED BODY: READING CYBORG WOMEN; Julian Dibbell, MY TINY
    LIFE: CRIME AND PASSION IN A VIRTUAL WORLD; Christopher Dewdney,
    LAST FLESH: LIFE IN THE TRANSHUMAN ERA; and a review of "Sexuality
    and Cyberspace: Performing the Digital Body," a special issue of
    WOMEN & PERFORMANCE: A JOURNAL OF FEMINIST THEORY;

  * The establishment of the Cyberculture Working Group, a collection
    of Maryland, Virginia, and Washington, DC-based scholars and
    activists who meet face-to-face to discuss issues of cyberculture;

  * And the creation of a low volume announcement list for RCCS events
    and updates (see below for instructions to join).

David Silver
American Studies, University of Maryland
Resource Center for Cyberculture Studies
<dsilver@glue.umd.edu>

*******************************************************************
resource center for cyberculture studies  http://otal.umd.edu/~rccs
if you are interested in joining a low volume announcement list for
rccs events and updates, please email:  majordomo@majordomo.umd.edu
no subject is required.  in the body, type:  subscribe cyberculture
*******************************************************************



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:43:22 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Brian Pauling <paulingb@CLEAR.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand (fwd)
In-Reply-To:  <3660b029.6212145@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter wrote:

> So there is a loss of a sense of nationhood.  Yet
> "nationalism" was never a
> strong platform for many of us who value humanity  beyond
> nations and race. I
> have a sense that some things simply need to go global to
> work at all. Hence
> combating the "globalisation" is difficult... perhaps it is
> not globalization
> that is the problem but individualism and capitalism and
> the accumulation of
> wealth in the hands of a few.  What is to be done?
>
> I would also welcome comment from other New Zealanders on
> my take on this stuff
> as I feel somewhat unsure of my perspective.  What
> globalisation means for us
> from various parts of the world would be interesting to know.

You spark in me a response based on a comment made just yesterday by a
colleague. She had just returned from a Cultural Studies conference in
Australia. She said that she noticed how proud Maori stood at the
conference in comparison with other indigenous nations participating.
She talked about Maori clearly claiming their space at the conference
and "being seen" whilst other races still "hovered on the periphery"
of White dominated space. She talked about how indigenous nations were
looking to Maori for leadership. In this sense I suspect what has been
happening in New Zealand is positive. Other "positives" for me include
the way education and, with some reluctance, the media are making
space for Maori. One optimistic take on it all, Walter, is that this
country is set for an immense struggle between the spiritual values so
precious to Maori and the individualistic and material values so much
worshiped by Pakeha (Caucasian New Zealanders). The resulting
synthesis could see a paradigm shift in the cultural hegemony.

> My friend Brian, (sorry Brian if you don't want to be
> dragged into this!) is
> writing about media and education and how these areas of
> human endeavour are
> going through revolutionary changes... I think it would be
> interesting compare
> and contrast the impact on psyche or soul.

One immediate comment is that Maori, being superb performers, have
grasped the opportunities that particularly the electronic and film
media offer for them to express themselves. Much of New Zealand cinema
is influenced by Maori and many Maori play key roles, not only on
screen but also in crew. One of the results is that our cinema is
preoccupied with deep and sometimes dark themes of the human spirit.
(e.g. Once Were Warriors, The Piano, Vigil and Utu). I suspect that in
the transition to cyberspace, television and cinema are playing an
important role, acknowledgedly sometime as bad as it is good!

An interesting area, Walter!?

Brian

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Mar 1999 07:45:59 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Making sense of illness
In-Reply-To:  <36f14113.66801330@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,


>     then remembering that journey and what I learned I was able
>     to touch that place of peace and acceptance and engage the
>     process, not easy and in fact asking all of me once again...I
>     feel it will all make sense at some point though there aren't
>     enuf dots to connect at this point...


I am impressed that you have been able to enter this psyberspace via the
gadgetry and also simply mentally in the midst of your struggles.  You mentioned
that you have felt comforted here, and I hope that we are able to sustain that
comfort as we do our psyber space stuff... including silence.  Psylence!

I could call this post "Back from the hills" once again, but this time it was a
three hour walk in the rain with the dog.  I got lost, and had to push my way
through some dense wet scrub for an hour or so, I loved it!  While walking the
mist descended and the old totara trees silhouetted against the backdrop of
mist.  I wanted, at that moment a digital camera, so I could immediately post
those images here.  That was the feel and mood of the silence here. A sense of
ancient beauty, and silence.

Judith I wish you well...


Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Mar 1999 05:37:09 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Be Well
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,

I wish you well also and hope that you have continuing peace and comfort
regardless of whether you are able to connnct the dots. You seem like a
lovely person...

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:48:37 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Dream:  Hosting 2 lists.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
N: Hmmm...Did you 'back channel' anyone but me on a List yesterday?
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; N (Just wondering again.)
<p>Walter Logeman wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Here is a dream I had last night.
<p>I was the host of two lists each list was of mountaineers?
<p>One list had six members or so in their party, I did not have to
<br>do much.&nbsp; The other list had only two, a solo climber and an old
<br>mountaineer.&nbsp; I had to assist the old mountaineer, who was simply
<br>watching the young one climb via the emails, which somehow
<br>arrived from the man on the mountain, to contribute so that the
<br>over all effect of the list worked, the story of the climb, and
<br>comments from the old man.&nbsp; I back channelled the old man and
<br>that was the only intervention in that list.&nbsp; At one point he
<br>complained about his ailments, I said to him, describe each
<br>feeling really accurately as you have it. His posts seemed
<br>beautiful when he did that, and made a counterpoint to the
<br>extreme health and fitness of the heroic climber.
<p>Walter
<p>__________________________________________________________________
<br>Walter Logeman&nbsp; walter@psybernet.co.nz&nbsp; <a href="http://www.psybernet.co.nz">http://www.psybernet.co.nz</a>
<p>____________________________________________________________
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</html>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:49:47 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Dream:  Hosting 2 lists.
In-Reply-To:  <36E16A75.5AE0A381@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy


> N: Hmmm...Did you 'back channel' anyone but me on a List yesterday?
> N (Just wondering again.)

I knew nothing of the day ahead at the time of the dream, which would give it a
slight precognitive element.

I have a stronger sense of it being about my young and old self.

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Mar 1999 23:53:15 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand (fwd)
In-Reply-To:  <000301be6783$7b82d0e0$f1f1a7cb@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Brian,

> One optimistic take on it all, Walter, is that this
> country is set for an immense struggle between the spiritual values so
> precious to Maori and the individualistic and material values so much
> worshiped by Pakeha (Caucasian New Zealanders). The resulting
> synthesis could see a paradigm shift in the cultural hegemony.

I love listening to our public broadcasting National :-) radio.  I wonder how
long it has to live?  The station certainly has a strong Maori and Pacific
emphasis.  Yesterday I heard an interview with the leader of the Bougainvillea
rebels.  A very spoken man, who had a lot of praise for the New Zealand
negotiators, who have managed to assist in the current peace there.  He
mentioned that New Zealanders, because of the experience with the treaty of
Waitangi, have a better understanding than Australian counter parts.

I certainly noticed how growing up in Australia, educated in a Sydney suburban
school and culture, how without being explicitly racist, I thought in terms of
such phrases as the Aboriginal problem, native customs, helping them come into
the 20th century etc.  It was disarming to come to NZ where we have a living
Maori language and culture which confronted my underlying attitudes.


> One of the results is that our cinema is
> preoccupied with deep and sometimes dark themes of the human spirit.
> (e.g. Once Were Warriors, The Piano, Vigil and Utu). I suspect that in
> the transition to cyberspace, television and cinema are playing an
> important role, acknowledgedly sometime as bad as it is good!

I know what you mean about those movies... The Piano was so dark I could hardly
bear it.

Just how all this ties in with cyberspace...

> An interesting area, Walter!?

That certainly is an interesting question... beyond the scope of this post.

In the last month or so I have been reading Giegerich on the nature of the
psyche.  He is a Jungian (of sorts) who thinks that the psyche is to be found in
the "maximisation of profits and globalisation".  Sounds weird and bad, but I
like the stimulation of his work.  You can see the thrust... not only do the
Maori (or traditional Jungians, new agers etc.) have "spiritual values" but
there is something grandly spiritual or soulful in the dominant drives in the
world.  Obscene or sublime?  I have links and comments to his writing online as
well as other material on the nature and evolution of the psyche on the
Psybernet Links page:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/links.htm


Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:22:00 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Dream:  Hosting 2 lists.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>Walter Logeman wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Nancy
<p>> N: Hmmm...Did you 'back channel' anyone but me on a List yesterday?
<br>> N (Just wondering again.)
<p>I knew nothing of the day ahead at the time of the dream, which would
give it a
<br>slight precognitive element.</blockquote>
N: I had to go back and sort dates (and times!) to understand this.&nbsp;
You are correct,
<br>of course.&nbsp; I still think it's a heck of a 'coincidence'. (I guess
I won't call it synchronicity
<br>since you didn't provide me with the info I requested (with day adjusted...etc....)
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; I would suggest that you consider the possibility that
'the mood' of your dream might
<br>have still been with you enough that when you 'set me straight', your
phrasing might have
<br>come&nbsp; more out of the senex than usual?&nbsp; It certainly took
me by surprise in a way in
<br>which your posts have not for nearly a year.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>I have a stronger sense of it being about my young
and old self.
<p>Walter</blockquote>
N: I hope this post looks as it should now?&nbsp; If not, please someone
let me know.
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp; Best regards,&nbsp; Nancy
<br>&nbsp; PS I do believe somewhat in precognitive dreams having had very
mild ones of my own.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<p>__________________________________________________________________
<br>Walter Logeman&nbsp; walter@psybernet.co.nz&nbsp; <a href="http://www.psybernet.co.nz">http://www.psybernet.co.nz</a>
<p>____________________________________________________________
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</html>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:39:45 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Be Well
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,
Thanks for the kind thots...I've been improving and this weekend the shaman
I study with was here for a workshop and did a healing with me which was
amazingly powerful...sometimes the healing of the spiritual issue doesn't
necessarily mean the physical will heal but in this case I am experiencing
physical healing as well...interesting the belief systems lurking in my
blind spot...anyway it is beautiful here in Cleveland, sun shining outside,
so bright off the snow...sun shining inside bringing healing...I am truly
blessed

Judith in gratitude



>Judith,
>
>I wish you well also and hope that you have continuing peace and comfort
>regardless of whether you are able to connnct the dots. You seem like a
>lovely person...
>
>Cheryl
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:47:32 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Be Well
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Judith,&nbsp; I'm glad to hear that things are going better for you.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Warmly, Nancy
<p>Judith Buerkel wrote:..I've been improving and this weekend the shaman
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>I study with was here for a workshop and did a healing
with me which was
<br>amazingly powerful...sometimes the healing of the spiritual issue doesn't
<br>necessarily mean the physical will heal but in this case I am experiencing
<br>physical healing as well...interesting the belief systems lurking in
my
<br>blind spot.....I am truly
<br>blessed
<p>Judith in gratitude
<p>>Judith,
<br>>
<br>>I wish you well also and hope that you have continuing peace and comfort
<br>>regardless of whether you are able to connnct the dots. You seem like
a
<br>>lovely person...
<br>>
<br>>Cheryl
<br>>
<br>>____________________________________________________________
<br>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
<br>>here:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html">http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html</a>
<p>____________________________________________________________
<br>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
<br>here:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html">http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html</a></blockquote>
</html>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:06:54 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Making sense of illness
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter and all,
This experience with healing has been huge for me and since my last round
taught me patience I have been able to stay connected to the experience in
a more consistant way...it has slowed me down to experiencing seconds and
the learning is that in this state I have had an acute awareness of choice
and sensing probabilities...like slow motion, the issues, the body's work,
etc were there to see...and with it a deep sense of timing...

>
>I am impressed that you have been able to enter this psyberspace via the
>gadgetry and also simply mentally in the midst of your struggles.  You
>mentioned
>that you have felt comforted here, and I hope that we are able to sustain that
>comfort as we do our psyber space stuff... including silence.  Psylence!

This weekend I attended a workshop with the shaman I study with...it was
about bringing the practices into our daily lives...prior to the workshop I
had asked for a time to have him look at what was going on...the session
was profound in many ways but I will share somethiing maybe relevant
here...lurking in my blind side was a belief system about the soul...my
framing of the soul's purpose here was causing me great difficulty but I
hadn't been able to figure it out...tho I had expanded my framing of soul
purpose beyond healing to include learning I could not integrate the idea
of joy and beauty and love,etc into my purpose, meaning these were
certainlyaspects to be experienced but these weren't attached to anything
so they were fleeting and secondary...he was able to expand my framing of
soul to *include* joy and beauty and love, experiencing the earth plane, as
well as healing and learning and as a result an immediate expansion
occurred which felt like having breathing space...then the Presbeterian dot
connected (I am of scottish decent)with Calvinism and fate and the
religious framing of soul certainly in my ancestral DNA...I thot I had
dodged that bullet since my childhood religion was liberal and open...silly
me...interesting the remaining hard places in my neck are liquifying since
Friday very quickly...and I can feel my body's impetus moving quickly to
pysical healing...much to ponder

>
>I could call this post "Back from the hills" once again, but this time it was a
>three hour walk in the rain with the dog.  I got lost, and had to push my way
>through some dense wet scrub for an hour or so, I loved it!  While walking the
>mist descended and the old totara trees silhouetted against the backdrop of
>mist.  I wanted, at that moment a digital camera, so I could immediately post
>those images here.  That was the feel and mood of the silence here. A sense of
>ancient beauty, and silence.

Someday I hope to experience New Zealand...I have such an affinity for it
>
>Judith I wish you well...

Thanks
Judith
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:16:55 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Philip Baumann
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Welcome Philip Baumann,

I have added your name to the Psyber-L list, and this is a post
to all the people on the list.

I hope you find this place of interest.  We certainly have
explored many facets of the area that interests you:

> My main interests are Jungian depth pychology, mythology, dreams.

As you will have gathered the purpose of Psyber-L is to explore
the psyche *online*, in cyberspace.  The idea is to do that
through being here, and to share our experiences,  that can be
quite personal, and in the "here and now", hence the archives and
our words here are confidential.

Psyber-L has a long history (in net time).  For all that there
are a good proportion of new members here, others who are still
perhaps simply waiting and watching what this is all about...

What we do here and how it works is up to us, so feel free to
make it happen!


Walter






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Mar 1999 00:10:53 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Talking
Comments: cc: bonaanna@hotmail.com
In-Reply-To:  <36ec951d.18851743@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

I have a friend who has just come online with a hotmail account.
No computer.  I showed her the basics.  I was fascinated to see
her write her first email to a friend.  The Subject: was Me (her
name) Talking.

I find that interesting.  I know we talk to each other and see
each other here, but I had a sense that was because we'd done it
for a while.

I wonder if it is "out there" in the culture, or if it is the
nature of the media that instantly gives us this feel?  Or some
of us anyway.  I'll cc this to her, and see what she thinks.

Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:20:05 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Depression
In-Reply-To:  <35b428cb.408094013@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi all, I've been sort of invisible for a while.

I am writing with an agenda in mind, but first I want to say that Judith, I have
been listening to you with interest and concern, but I haven't felt able to
contribute anything.  Perhaps I should say "I hear you" more often on this list;
we all tend to be so passive when not "fired up"!

Anyway.

I'm looking for online resources for someone I know who is going through severe
depression (not me, not anyone any of you know I don't think).  She threatened
suicide on a discussion list I'm on.  There was some response, mostly privately
to her.

I know the discussion list she and I are on is not a good place for her to work
this out; it's a list with another topic of discussion and this just sort of
"popped up."  But I definitely don't want to just let it drop.

So does anyone here have a recommendation for places on line where she can go to
discuss her depression?  She has a therapist, she is taking meds, but that
doesn't seem to be enough (well obviously).  This depression is longstanding.

I also don't know if it would be right to invite her here.  Somehow I feel
uncomfortable with that idea.

Thanks all,
JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:30:26 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Depression
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
What a 'kind little soul' you are behind all that 'logic', JoJo.&nbsp;
Wish I could help, but I
<br>instituted several similar searches on my own behalf and came up 'dry'.&nbsp;
If you find any
<br>I hope you'll share.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Nancy
<p>JoAnne Schmitz wrote:ASo does anyone here have a recommendation for
places on line where she can go to
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>discuss her depression?&nbsp; She has a therapist,
she is taking meds, but that
<br>doesn't seem to be enough (well obviously).&nbsp; This depression is
longstanding.
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
</html>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:54:17 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Depression
In-Reply-To:  <36ED6DE2.3BDC8429@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:30:26 -0800, you, Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>, wrote:

>What a 'kind little soul' you are behind all that 'logic', JoJo.

Thanks Nancy!

>Wish I could help, but I instituted several similar searches on my
>own behalf and came up 'dry'.  If you find any I hope you'll share.

I will.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:07:53 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Depression
In-Reply-To:  <36fd3b90.4090531@mail.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Some resources I found from the alt.support.depression FAQ at
http://x7.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=143002042:

Internet Resources------------------
Q. What are some electronic resources on the internet related to   depression?
   This list is a shortened version of one compiled and maintained by
   Sylvia Caras. It is posted periodically to ThisIsCrazy-L (see below
   for subscription information) If you would like to suggest additions
   for this list, contact <sylviac@netcom.com> To suggest additions to
   this list for the Alt.support.depression FAQ, send them to
   cf12@cornell.edu.    * News groups:      alt.support.depression
      alt.support.phobias      sci.psychology      sci.med
      sci.med.psychobiology
   * Internet Health Resources is an extensive listing of medical
     resources available over the internet.       ftp2.cc.ukans.edu
      cd pub/hmatrix       get file medlst03.txt or medlst03.zip.
   * An FTP site at Temple University containing articles related to
     depression      ftp 129.32.32.98       cd/pub/psych
   * ThisIsCrazy is an electronic action and information letter for
     people who experience moods swings, fright, voices, and visions
     (People Who). To subscribe, send a message to majordomo@netcom.com
     with this command in the body of the message:      subscribe ThisIsCrazy-L
   * Pendulum is a mailing list for people diagnosed with bipolar mood
     disorder (manic depression) and related disorders and their
     supporters, and some professionals. To subscribe to pendulum, send
     a message to majordomo@ncar.ucar.edu containing the line
      subscribe pendulum
   * Walkers-in-Darkness is a list for people diagnosed with various
     depressive disorders (unipolar, atypical, and bipolar depression,
     S.A.D., related disorders). The list also includes sufferers of
     panic attacks and Borderline Personality Disorder. Please, no
     researchers trying to study us, etc. (Postings are copyrighted by
     individual posters.)
     To subscribe to walkers or walkers-digest, send a message to
     majordomo@world.std.com containing the line "subscribe walkers" or,
     for the digest, "subscribe walkers-digest". There is an anonymous
     FTP site at ftp.std.com in ~/pub/walkers, that includes a technical
     FAQ.   * To subscribe to the Mailbase list psychiatry send the command
     SUBSCRIBE psychiatry <your name> to mailbase@uk.ac.mailbase

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:14:20 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Depression
In-Reply-To:  <36fd3b90.4090531@mail.digex.net>
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JoAnne,

Good to hear from you again, and that you are here ... we have
been a bit passive eh!

> I'm looking for online resources for someone I know who is going through severe
> depression (not me, not anyone any of you know I don't think).  She threatened
> suicide on a discussion list I'm on.  There was some response, mostly privately
> to her.

What a nasty moment for you really, that someone does that
online, how do you feel about that?  Over the years as a
therapist "working" with people who are suicidal has become a
well refined art.  I think I do it well and have developed ways
that attend to the roots of the matter as well as prevent the
suicide.  Doing that is quite an art and it is not imo full of
"no suicide contracts" and so on.  How to be with it outside of
work, is more difficult, for me anyway, life is much harder than
therapy (for the therapist).  Online brings its own complexities.


I hope by the time you se this you will have found a way to help
your friend.

> I know the discussion list she and I are on is not a good place for her to work
> this out; it's a list with another topic of discussion and this just sort of
> "popped up."  But I definitely don't want to just let it drop.

Makes sense that these matters cant be raised if they are not on
topic for the list, that would lead to conflict and rejection.
Would you do a one on one email thing with her?

> So does anyone here have a recommendation for places on line where she can go to
> discuss her depression?  She has a therapist, she is taking meds, but that
> doesn't seem to be enough (well obviously).  This depression is longstanding.

Perhaps there are places where people discuss depression... but I
think they would be ... depressing!  One simple thing is to
always think what are the actual feelings and experiences that
are involved, naming them is immediate relief from hopelessness,
if that is present.  The point is that *sadness* can lead to
working through grief, boredom to taking up challenges, fear can
lead to courage. This makes me think that there may be a place
for her to discuss ... adventure ... theology ... mothercraft
whatever is her thing.  Makes me think of a group here that was
called the "Post Natal Depression Group" but is now called the
"Mother Support Group".  Words make a difference here!

Maybe her therapist is lousy?  Maybe the meds make it worse?
These things happen.

Right now I think like the Tower in the Eros and Psyche story,
let me quote from a previous email:


Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>

  Re: breathe Eros and Psyche
  Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:06:27 GMT

| I have been reading "She", Psyche's final task, is given to her by the
| tower. I'll try it guided by the book, in first person.
|
|
| Tower:
| "Psyche came to me in a state.  Aphrodite has been driving her ... to the
| point of despair, suicide, death.  She comes to me so she can jump off and
| kill herself. Psyche is being forced by Aphrodite to go into the underworld
| and get Persephone's beauty ointment.  It is like asking her to die, and so
| she almost does.
|
| I don't want her to die, I want Psyche to have her breath!
|
| Psyche, here are the instructions, the maps to the secret places where you
| will find that you can get to Hades.  First to the opening where the
| underworld gets its breath.  You will need two cakes and two coins.
|
| AND when you get the cask with the ointment YOU MUST NOT OPEN IT!"


In other words a guide into hell.  That is what a therapist is
really. There is something to pay:  two cakes and two coins.  I
wonder if she is getting her cakes and coins worth?  Can this be
done online?

I think the closest I cam to feeling like that was in the Dream
Group, and even though I was one of the ... owners leaders
whatever, I was a thorough participant.  I also know that I have
not done anything like that since ... It took over my life for
months!  I have been thinking how such groups could be done
professionally for a fee, on the net, but have not really found a
way.  I'd like to conduct something like that, and haver it pay
enough so that I could drop a client or two a day to run it!

That is one of the questions you raise Joanne and it is one of
the topics in the Psyber-L description ... how to do this sort of
psychological work on the net.

> I also don't know if it would be right to invite her here.  Somehow I feel
> uncomfortable with that idea.

I think that one reason for that is that Psyber-L ... for all our
willingness to be open and personal, is not primarily a personal
therapy or personal development forum.  Almost but not quite, to
quote the Description:


| = Purpose =

| The purpose of Psyber-L is to learn experientially about the
| psyche in cyberspace. As all online discussion contributes to the
| unfolding of the psyche a wide range of topics is suitable.
| Participants are encouraged to make posts about the process and
| how the psyche manifests and can be nurtured in cyberspace. The
| comment and learning is not kept separate from the discussion, it
| forms an integral part of it.

Your question Joanne is just so much *our* question.  I hope we
really look into all this together and while me might not want to
focus on an absent other person in a detailed way, the situation
is worth exploring.

On a more immediate level I hope this helps and it is ok by me if
you quote this email, if it is of use.



Walter
PS maybe we should change the title of this thread!  I'd hate to
see 20 posts in a row in my Psyber-L folder with that word!



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:29:57 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Depression
In-Reply-To:  <37147613.19069734@mail.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne, all,

Thanks for the resources JoAnne.  It does sound like there are
plenty there!  I think it would be good to hear about personal
experiences in these places, in so far as they can be shared
without breach of confidentiality.


Walter
Adding the D word to the Subject list once again!


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:44:56 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      thisiscrazy-l
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:34:14 -0800 (PST), Sylvia Caras <sylviac@netcom.com>
wrote:


Thank you for trying to subscribe to ThisIsCrazy.  We have changed
our name to MADNESS, moved, and restructured.

I have been correcting the ThisIsCrazy announcements when I
learn about them, and letting people know about the address
change.  You could help with that by letting me know where
you heard about ThisIsCrazy.

The family of MADNESS nested lists creates a decentralized electronic
forum and distribution device for exchanging ways to change
political systems that touch people who experience mood swings,
fear, voices and visions (People Who), and for
distributing any information and resources that might be
useful.

MADNESS itself is a super-list.  MADNESS is outgoing only.  Discussions
may take place on the sub-lists.  Messages from MADNESS will be
announcements of conferences and news of interest to people who
experience mood swings, fear, voices and visions, some forwards
from other lists, an occasional URL, sometimes a quotation.

Anticipated MADNESS volume is low, from none to five messages a day. (9/1/97)

For more information send LISTSERV@maelstrom.stjohns.edu the
command INDEX MADNESS.

To join, e mail LISTSERV@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
the message
SUBSCRIBE MADNESS yourfirstname yourlastname

When you receive the request for connection
confirmation from LISTSERV, reply with the message
ok

key words: mind mad crazy moods voices visions fear consumer
survivor ex-patient rights advocacy


               Sylvia Caras, Coordinator
                   The Madness Group
          lists works library chat and building ...
            http://www.peoplewho.org/Madness



          WNUSP is the electronic arm of the World Network of
          Users and Survivors of Psychiatry.

          The list purpose is to discuss global mental health social
          justice issues, U N actions, W H O statements, ... and to
          foster the inclusion at all policy levels of people who
          experience mood swings, fear, voices and visions.  The
          intent is for the list to be low volume and sharply focused
          on global advocacy.

          To subscribe, send e mail to
          LISTSERV@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
          with the message
          SUBSCRIBE WNUSP <yourfirstname> <yourlastname>

         When you receive the request for connection
         confirmation from LISTSERV, reply with the message
         ok

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:05:33 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Easing Depression
In-Reply-To:  <36ed788b.46070511@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:14:20 GMT, you, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>,
wrote:

>> I'm looking for online resources for someone I know who is going through severe
>> depression (not me, not anyone any of you know I don't think).  She threatened
>> suicide on a discussion list I'm on.  There was some response, mostly privately
>> to her.
>
>What a nasty moment for you really, that someone does that
>online, how do you feel about that?  Over the years as a
>therapist "working" with people who are suicidal has become a
>well refined art.  I think I do it well and have developed ways
>that attend to the roots of the matter as well as prevent the
>suicide.  Doing that is quite an art and it is not imo full of
>"no suicide contracts" and so on.  How to be with it outside of
>work, is more difficult, for me anyway, life is much harder than
>therapy (for the therapist).  Online brings its own complexities.

It was a squirmy feeling.  One thing that complicated it was that she did it in
a way that was not quite clear to me, but was to others on the list; she quoted
a famous person's "famous last words" before his suicide, and I thought it
sounded familiar.  So I was both worried and also feeling that I might be
overreacting to nothing.

Others were more immediately alarmed because they recognized the saying.
Luckily I got in an offlist conversation with them about it, and we're
discussing what to say before actually saying it, both for her and for the
shared list.

>I hope by the time you se this you will have found a way to help
>your friend.

I hope so too!  I sent the same list of lists as I sent here, and a list of
things to do when depressed from the alt.support.depression newsgroup FAQ.  I'm
not really close to her, but she was reaching out, so I wanted to help.  But I
don't like her bringing suicide into the social list she and I are on.

>> I know the discussion list she and I are on is not a good place for her to work
>> this out; it's a list with another topic of discussion and this just sort of
>> "popped up."  But I definitely don't want to just let it drop.
>
>Makes sense that these matters cant be raised if they are not on
>topic for the list, that would lead to conflict and rejection.
>Would you do a one on one email thing with her?

I can try.  She's not very easy to deal with in some ways.  She gets, shall we
say, melodramatic.  It's hard for me to deal with that and not provoke her, I
think, because it provokes me!  And I have the same problem I had with you know
who, that the statements seem to me unbelievable.  I can't pretend to believe,
at least not very credibly.

>> So does anyone here have a recommendation for places on line where she can go to
>> discuss her depression?  She has a therapist, she is taking meds, but that
>> doesn't seem to be enough (well obviously).  This depression is longstanding.
>
>Perhaps there are places where people discuss depression... but I
>think they would be ... depressing!  One simple thing is to
>always think what are the actual feelings and experiences that
>are involved, naming them is immediate relief from hopelessness,
>if that is present.  The point is that *sadness* can lead to
>working through grief, boredom to taking up challenges, fear can
>lead to courage. This makes me think that there may be a place
>for her to discuss ... adventure ... theology ... mothercraft
>whatever is her thing.  Makes me think of a group here that was
>called the "Post Natal Depression Group" but is now called the
>"Mother Support Group".  Words make a difference here!

Yes, that's a positive change of name!  But might not attract the currently
depressed.  which brings up the time element.

One thing we discussed some before here was that the group as a whole has moved
in a particular direction, had common experiences.  When new people come in they
disturb the wholeness of the group.  In a way the group is like a ship that
sails; those who come on board late or show themselves late are forever playing
catch-up.  And we're always possibly resenting the time taken to help catch them
up, or resenting that they're not caught up.  Like ten-year-olds forced to play
with four-year-old little siblings, it can be okay or even fun but then turn
irritating.

>Maybe her therapist is lousy?  Maybe the meds make it worse?
>These things happen.

She's not getting enough therapy, or wasn't at least as of her threat.  Her meds
are increased and she's getting more therapy now with a different person as a
result of Friday's occurrence.

>Right now I think like the Tower in the Eros and Psyche story,
>let me quote from a previous email:
>
>
>Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
>
>  Re: breathe Eros and Psyche
>  Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:06:27 GMT
>
>| I have been reading "She", Psyche's final task, is given to her by the
>| tower. I'll try it guided by the book, in first person.
>|
>|
>| Tower:
>| "Psyche came to me in a state.  Aphrodite has been driving her ... to the
>| point of despair, suicide, death.  She comes to me so she can jump off and
>| kill herself. Psyche is being forced by Aphrodite to go into the underworld
>| and get Persephone's beauty ointment.  It is like asking her to die, and so
>| she almost does.
>|
>| I don't want her to die, I want Psyche to have her breath!
>|
>| Psyche, here are the instructions, the maps to the secret places where you
>| will find that you can get to Hades.  First to the opening where the
>| underworld gets its breath.  You will need two cakes and two coins.
>|
>| AND when you get the cask with the ointment YOU MUST NOT OPEN IT!"
>
>
>In other words a guide into hell.  That is what a therapist is
>really. There is something to pay:  two cakes and two coins.  I
>wonder if she is getting her cakes and coins worth?  Can this be
>done online?

But Walter, it takes the right therapist to get the patient to give those cakes
and coins!  If they're not given then nothing can really be done.

>I think the closest I cam to feeling like that was in the Dream
>Group, and even though I was one of the ... owners leaders
>whatever, I was a thorough participant.  I also know that I have
>not done anything like that since ... It took over my life for
>months!  I have been thinking how such groups could be done
>professionally for a fee, on the net, but have not really found a
>way.  I'd like to conduct something like that, and haver it pay
>enough so that I could drop a client or two a day to run it!

Perhaps if you had clients whom you required to have email access and you would
see them in person as well as on line.  That would be different though.  Just a
thought.

>That is one of the questions you raise Joanne and it is one of
>the topics in the Psyber-L description ... how to do this sort of
>psychological work on the net.
>
>> I also don't know if it would be right to invite her here.  Somehow I feel
>> uncomfortable with that idea.
>
>I think that one reason for that is that Psyber-L ... for all our
>willingness to be open and personal, is not primarily a personal
>therapy or personal development forum.

Right.  And in her current state I don't trust her not to go into a
getting/forcing therapy mode, and I would feel guilty about her being guided
here into a non-therapy situation hoping for more, because both sides would be
disappointed.

My boyfriend Phil once told me of a dream where he was trying to help a hurt
animal.  I was in the dream and while he held the animal I drove him and the
animal to get help.  You can see what I'm saying here.  I'm not so good at
giving the help, but I'm pretty good at looking for it and driving people to it.

>Almost but not quite, to
>quote the Description:
>
>
>| = Purpose =
>
>| The purpose of Psyber-L is to learn experientially about the
>| psyche in cyberspace. As all online discussion contributes to the
>| unfolding of the psyche a wide range of topics is suitable.
>| Participants are encouraged to make posts about the process and
>| how the psyche manifests and can be nurtured in cyberspace. The
>| comment and learning is not kept separate from the discussion, it
>| forms an integral part of it.
>
>Your question Joanne is just so much *our* question.  I hope we
>really look into all this together and while me might not want to
>focus on an absent other person in a detailed way, the situation
>is worth exploring.
>
>On a more immediate level I hope this helps and it is ok by me if
>you quote this email, if it is of use.

Thanks, I may send some of it along.

>PS maybe we should change the title of this thread!  I'd hate to
>see 20 posts in a row in my Psyber-L folder with that word!

I just changed it!  Abracadabra!  now it's better.

-JoAnne

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:55:12 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Easing Depression
In-Reply-To:  <3733a94a.32180968@mail.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:05:33 GMT, you, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>, wrote:

>I can try.  She's not very easy to deal with in some ways.  She gets, shall we
>say, melodramatic.  It's hard for me to deal with that and not provoke her, I
>think, because it provokes me!  And I have the same problem I had with you know
>who, that the statements seem to me unbelievable.

Let me clarify that the threat didn't seem unbelievable, just the slant she puts
on a lot of things in other conversations.  Especially when the slant changes
overnight.

-JoAnne

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:09:32 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Depression
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I once saw someone commit suicide - a jumper off the Golden Gate Bridge
in San Francisco. I used to cross the Bridge twice a day commuting. On
this particular evening (Election Day, 1994 - we were on our way to
vote!) my friend was driving and we were moving slowly in the lane
nearest to the walkway and the railing. The fellow who jumped was walking
south (we were going north)and I noticed him and turned to look at him
because he had been walking but he broke into a run. He took a ilttle hop
and one, two, three, he was over the railing. It looked just like he was
hopping a backyard hedge. We both saw it and we both screamed out "No!"
We got off the Bridge at the North Tower to call the Bridge District and
three other cars got off with us because they had seen it too. A patrol
car was there and we flagged him down and told him what had happened and
he radioed for a boat patrol search. We called the Bridge District the
next Day to ask if they had found the man and they had and he had died.

It shook me up quite a bit. The way my upset manifested was that I
couldn't look at people walking across the Bridge for a long time. It had
never occurred to me that one of those people might jump but now I think
about it often as I cross that Bridge. Luckily, I don't live there
anymore. Still, it felt like a small rip in the fabric of the universe.
It was horrible but what also lingered with me was how easy it looked -
one, two three, hop. That was almost as upsetting as seeing the act
itself. The SEEMING ease of such a little and fatal hop.

Sorry about the grim little story . It's just that suicide really
happens- it's not always just a threat. Creepy. Sad. Horrible.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:39:12 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Depression
In-Reply-To:  <36EDBD5C.5715@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl, all

  Re: Depression
  Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:09:32 -0800

> Sorry about the grim little story . It's just that suicide really
> happens- it's not always just a threat. Creepy. Sad. Horrible.

I'm glad the story is here.  It happens.  Your story got me
thinking about the situation of us who look on.  Your shout of
NO! I wish he could have heard it!  On line we can shout too, but
we are also trapped by the medium, where we can't grab someone
physically.  It is the same for a therapist, I have to stay
inside my office.  There is a lot more we can do in these
"virtual" spaces (therapy has its own virtuality) than in a car
on a bridge though!  Perhaps even more than family or friends.

Once a client threatened suicide over the phone and I called the
police and they went to check.  They were very good, and rang me
back, they had met with a very composed person, who said the
therapist was overreacting!  Later in the work she said it was
the worst thing I did in the therapy.  I did it only on that one
occasion, I usually contain the whole drama within the therapy,
even when it is very scary.  Much better that way than calling
cops etc.  I'm not sorry i did it on that occasion for all that.

I was on a list once called FutureCulture, 94?, and someone
threatened suicide.  One of the very competent and active members
of the list traced the email back to a specific campus, and
called the dean.  He got both praise and flack for his actions. I
liked what he did. The threat was dismissed as a joke by the
perpetrator.  I wonder if that episode was ever written up, it is
in the public archives of the list somewhere.


Walter
Trying (in vain) to think of a new name for this post.
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Mar 1999 03:01:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Online Therapy
In-Reply-To:  <3733a94a.32180968@mail.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>

  Easing Depression
  Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:05:33 GMT


> Perhaps if you had clients whom you required to have email access and you would
> see them in person as well as on line.  That would be different though.  Just a
> thought.

I use it now with clients who have email and are into it.  They
do the writing, and I do very little online, just short
encouraging receipts.  I print them out and use them in the
session, often dreams or poems etc.  Works well!  I don't charge
extra for that.

It is different!

I am interested in your word "required" there.  It is a
possibility!  When a new person rings I say "do you have email?"
if no, I say "sorry, I only work with the wired".  heheheh


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:28:56 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Baumann, Philip" <Philip.Baumann@CONECTIV.COM>
Subject:      Re: Easing Depression
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Joan, thank you for sharing your experience with your friend.  I have
bipolar mood disorder (or good old fashioned manic-depression) and my
experience with electronic support is dichotomous.  On line support has the
potential to be therapeutic; likewise it can be a source of
"triggering"--that is sometime online conversations can lose their focus and
help to cause depressive episodes.  I would say that the treatment of
depression requires a rounding out of methods and the cornerstone of
effective treatment is talk therapy (which is probably why mythology and
poetics can be a very inspiring source of new ways of looking at life),
combined with careful administration of medication.  For depressives, the
most difficult aspect of the illness can be the very lack of other people's
understanding; it's 1999 and we still have an embarrassing mass of stigma
pitted against mental illness. But with time and education, I'm hopeful that
will continue to change for the better.  Your friend may seek out a support
group, talk to the group leader over the phone and visit the group.  I don't
think being in a group of depressives is necessarily depressing, although
that is a possibility.  But if a person is physically present at a meeting,
I would say that's a good sign.  Electronic extensions of the human voice
are wonderful technologies but I would say we are far from substituting
human voice with the essence of technology.  I'm sure it can be very
frustrating to deal with someone with depression, but just when it's most
frustrating it's also the most critical--that's why listening is so
important (not judging or giving advice--a little knowledge can be
dangerous).  So pat yourself on the back for taking the initiative and
reaching out for help for your friend.  Good luck and e-mail me if you would
like to discuss more.


On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:14:20 GMT, you, Walter Logeman
<walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>,
wrote:

>> I'm looking for online resources for someone I know who is going through
severe
>> depression (not me, not anyone any of you know I don't think).  She
threatened
>> suicide on a discussion list I'm on.  There was some response, mostly
privately
>> to her.
>
>What a nasty moment for you really, that someone does that
>online, how do you feel about that?  Over the years as a
>therapist "working" with people who are suicidal has become a
>well refined art.  I think I do it well and have developed ways
>that attend to the roots of the matter as well as prevent the
>suicide.  Doing that is quite an art and it is not imo full of
>"no suicide contracts" and so on.  How to be with it outside of
>work, is more difficult, for me anyway, life is much harder than
>therapy (for the therapist).  Online brings its own complexities.

It was a squirmy feeling.  One thing that complicated it was that she did it
in
a way that was not quite clear to me, but was to others on the list; she
quoted
a famous person's "famous last words" before his suicide, and I thought it
sounded familiar.  So I was both worried and also feeling that I might be
overreacting to nothing.

Others were more immediately alarmed because they recognized the saying.
Luckily I got in an offlist conversation with them about it, and we're
discussing what to say before actually saying it, both for her and for the
shared list.

>I hope by the time you se this you will have found a way to help
>your friend.

I hope so too!  I sent the same list of lists as I sent here, and a list of
things to do when depressed from the alt.support.depression newsgroup FAQ.
I'm
not really close to her, but she was reaching out, so I wanted to help.  But
I
don't like her bringing suicide into the social list she and I are on.

>> I know the discussion list she and I are on is not a good place for her
to work
>> this out; it's a list with another topic of discussion and this just sort
of
>> "popped up."  But I definitely don't want to just let it drop.
>
>Makes sense that these matters cant be raised if they are not on
>topic for the list, that would lead to conflict and rejection.
>Would you do a one on one email thing with her?

I can try.  She's not very easy to deal with in some ways.  She gets, shall
we
say, melodramatic.  It's hard for me to deal with that and not provoke her,
I
think, because it provokes me!  And I have the same problem I had with you
know
who, that the statements seem to me unbelievable.  I can't pretend to
believe,
at least not very credibly.

>> So does anyone here have a recommendation for places on line where she
can go to
>> discuss her depression?  She has a therapist, she is taking meds, but
that
>> doesn't seem to be enough (well obviously).  This depression is
longstanding.
>
>Perhaps there are places where people discuss depression... but I
>think they would be ... depressing!  One simple thing is to
>always think what are the actual feelings and experiences that
>are involved, naming them is immediate relief from hopelessness,
>if that is present.  The point is that *sadness* can lead to
>working through grief, boredom to taking up challenges, fear can
>lead to courage. This makes me think that there may be a place
>for her to discuss ... adventure ... theology ... mothercraft
>whatever is her thing.  Makes me think of a group here that was
>called the "Post Natal Depression Group" but is now called the
>"Mother Support Group".  Words make a difference here!

Yes, that's a positive change of name!  But might not attract the currently
depressed.  which brings up the time element.

One thing we discussed some before here was that the group as a whole has
moved
in a particular direction, had common experiences.  When new people come in
they
disturb the wholeness of the group.  In a way the group is like a ship that
sails; those who come on board late or show themselves late are forever
playing
catch-up.  And we're always possibly resenting the time taken to help catch
them
up, or resenting that they're not caught up.  Like ten-year-olds forced to
play
with four-year-old little siblings, it can be okay or even fun but then turn
irritating.

>Maybe her therapist is lousy?  Maybe the meds make it worse?
>These things happen.

She's not getting enough therapy, or wasn't at least as of her threat.  Her
meds
are increased and she's getting more therapy now with a different person as
a
result of Friday's occurrence.

>Right now I think like the Tower in the Eros and Psyche story,
>let me quote from a previous email:
>
>
>Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
>
>  Re: breathe Eros and Psyche
>  Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:06:27 GMT
>
>| I have been reading "She", Psyche's final task, is given to her by the
>| tower. I'll try it guided by the book, in first person.
>|
>|
>| Tower:
>| "Psyche came to me in a state.  Aphrodite has been driving her ... to the
>| point of despair, suicide, death.  She comes to me so she can jump off
and
>| kill herself. Psyche is being forced by Aphrodite to go into the
underworld
>| and get Persephone's beauty ointment.  It is like asking her to die, and
so
>| she almost does.
>|
>| I don't want her to die, I want Psyche to have her breath!
>|
>| Psyche, here are the instructions, the maps to the secret places where
you
>| will find that you can get to Hades.  First to the opening where the
>| underworld gets its breath.  You will need two cakes and two coins.
>|
>| AND when you get the cask with the ointment YOU MUST NOT OPEN IT!"
>
>
>In other words a guide into hell.  That is what a therapist is
>really. There is something to pay:  two cakes and two coins.  I
>wonder if she is getting her cakes and coins worth?  Can this be
>done online?

But Walter, it takes the right therapist to get the patient to give those
cakes
and coins!  If they're not given then nothing can really be done.

>I think the closest I cam to feeling like that was in the Dream
>Group, and even though I was one of the ... owners leaders
>whatever, I was a thorough participant.  I also know that I have
>not done anything like that since ... It took over my life for
>months!  I have been thinking how such groups could be done
>professionally for a fee, on the net, but have not really found a
>way.  I'd like to conduct something like that, and haver it pay
>enough so that I could drop a client or two a day to run it!

Perhaps if you had clients whom you required to have email access and you
would
see them in person as well as on line.  That would be different though.
Just a
thought.

>That is one of the questions you raise Joanne and it is one of
>the topics in the Psyber-L description ... how to do this sort of
>psychological work on the net.
>
>> I also don't know if it would be right to invite her here.  Somehow I
feel
>> uncomfortable with that idea.
>
>I think that one reason for that is that Psyber-L ... for all our
>willingness to be open and personal, is not primarily a personal
>therapy or personal development forum.

Right.  And in her current state I don't trust her not to go into a
getting/forcing therapy mode, and I would feel guilty about her being guided
here into a non-therapy situation hoping for more, because both sides would
be
disappointed.

My boyfriend Phil once told me of a dream where he was trying to help a hurt
animal.  I was in the dream and while he held the animal I drove him and the
animal to get help.  You can see what I'm saying here.  I'm not so good at
giving the help, but I'm pretty good at looking for it and driving people to
it.

>Almost but not quite, to
>quote the Description:
>
>
>| = Purpose =
>
>| The purpose of Psyber-L is to learn experientially about the
>| psyche in cyberspace. As all online discussion contributes to the
>| unfolding of the psyche a wide range of topics is suitable.
>| Participants are encouraged to make posts about the process and
>| how the psyche manifests and can be nurtured in cyberspace. The
>| comment and learning is not kept separate from the discussion, it
>| forms an integral part of it.
>
>Your question Joanne is just so much *our* question.  I hope we
>really look into all this together and while me might not want to
>focus on an absent other person in a detailed way, the situation
>is worth exploring.
>
>On a more immediate level I hope this helps and it is ok by me if
>you quote this email, if it is of use.

Thanks, I may send some of it along.

>PS maybe we should change the title of this thread!  I'd hate to
>see 20 posts in a row in my Psyber-L folder with that word!

I just changed it!  Abracadabra!  now it's better.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:27:42 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Depression
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>Walter Logeman wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Trying (in vain) to think of a new name for this
post.</blockquote>
N: DON'T do it!&nbsp; It only further advertises your own fear of something
others need to
<br>count on you for.
<p>&nbsp; Thanks, JoJo, for the list.&nbsp; I plan to check out the Walkers
in Darkness.
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Nancy
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<br>_____________________________________________________
<br>Walter Logeman
<br>Counsellor &amp; Psychotherapist
<br>Harley Chambers
<br>PO Box 13 543
<br>Christchurch NZ
<br>Phone: (643) 377 1206&nbsp; Fax: (643) 377 1207
<br>walter@psybernet.co.nz
<p>____________________________________________________________
<br>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
<br>here:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html">http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html</a></blockquote>
</html>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:15:37 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         renata <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Depression
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

---Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET> wrote:

Walter Logeman wrote:

Trying (in vain) to think of a new name for this

post.



Sorry to but in after such a long silence, but I couldn't resist.

Why not change the name of this post? I mean, "depression" isn't
really inviting, is it? When I'm not depressed I tend to forget the
importance of other people's depressions, and when I actually am
depressed, I tend to think mine's the mostimportant around ... so
either way, the title isn't really inviting, I think.



N: DON'T do it! It only further advertises your own fear of something

others need to count on you for.

Why not advertise one's fear? Sounds pretty sound to me. Better than
to hide it and let it eat you up without anyone noticing.



renata (just couldn't resist)
==
Language can dress bare thoughts and feelings






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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:39:15 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Easing Depression
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>renata wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>---Nancy Smith &lt;nsmith@NEGIA.NET> wrote:
<p>Walter Logeman wrote:
<p>Trying (in vain) to think of a new name for this
<p>post.
<p>Sorry to but in after such a long silence, but I couldn't resist.
<p>Why not change the name of this post? I mean, "depression" isn't
<br>really inviting, is it? When I'm not depressed I tend to forget the
<br>importance of other people's depressions, and when I actually am
<br>depressed, I tend to think mine's the mostimportant around ... so
<br>either way, the title isn't really inviting, I think.
<p>N: DON'T do it!&Ecirc; It only further advertises your own fear of something
<p>others need to count on you for.
<p>Why not advertise one's fear? Sounds pretty sound to me. Better than
<br>to hide it and let it eat you up without anyone noticing.
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
N: I guess that's fair, only I don't think a psychotherapist would want
people getting the idea that he, himself if afraid of one of the commonest
complaints people might come to him for.
<br>&nbsp; Certainly if it's so better to be up front about it, but I don't
think I'd find it very helpful
<br>as a client.&nbsp; And the Jungians tend to feel that depression (nigredo)
is an ordinary and
<br>useful part of the healing/awareness process.
<br>&nbsp; He's absolutely right in saying that one tends to find rejection
in revealing depression.
<br>I feel that is why depressed people withdraw rather than the other
way around.&nbsp; It may
<br>very well be the straw that drops them over the bridge.
<br>&nbsp; By the way, David Rosen directs the only public university PhD
program I know of in
<br>Analytic Psychology (at Texas A &amp; M).&nbsp; He has written a book
on depression and most
<br>of his examples come from the results of people who survived the leap
off the Golden
<br>Gate.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Another BTW, I don't object to JoJo's "Easing Depression"
as long as the (shudder)
<br>'D' word is included for 'search' purposes.
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sincerely,&nbsp;&nbsp; Nancy</html>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:53:31 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Easing Depression
In-Reply-To:  <36EEEBA2.A9E507B8@negia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy Smith

>  N: DON'T do it! It only further advertises your own fear of something
>  others need to count on you for.

I'd acknowledge fear if it was there and pertinent, however I am
being a little playful here.  I thought it funny really the
thought of the look of my Psyber-L folder:

Re: Depression
Re: Depression
Re: Depression
Re: Depression
Re: Depression
Re: Depression
Re: Depression
Re: Depression
Re: Depression
Re: Depression


I was taking my perceptions into the here and now of this
discussion.  Parallel process.  Too much use of the word
depression is creates a vicious circle. I don't like the word
"depression"  said it many times on this list so wont repeat to
much, but it is in part because it has been co-opted by the
medical model.  Despair for example might look pretty gloomy as
well but it does invite the mental leap to Prozac. Its use also
prevents more enlivening descriptions of the feelings.  The word
"upset" is a bit like that too, it says something, but is not
enlivening, as angry or sad might be.

I did not actually change the name of the thread though, simply
commented on it.

I had a direct response to Cheryl and there was nothing that
really merited a new name.  The subject names are used
significantly in the archives, so it is good to be conscious of
how we use them.


Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Mar 1999 02:01:59 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Depression
In-Reply-To:  <19990316201537.1286.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

renata,

> renata (just couldn't resist)

I'm glad you didn't.  How are you doing with this "list"?  The
experience of entering here might be quite different for
different people, it is hard to put myself in your shoes, what is
it like?

> Language can dress bare thoughts and feelings

Were you meaning that they are better dressed than bare?

I think they make a difference.  Huge sometimes.  More simply
changing the words, the words can create or transform the
experience.  For example "I do".  :)


Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:12:34 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Depression
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Hi all, I've been sort of invisible for a while.
>
>I am writing with an agenda in mind, but first I want to say that Judith,
>I have
>been listening to you with interest and concern, but I haven't felt able to
>contribute anything.  Perhaps I should say "I hear you" more often on this
>list;
>we all tend to be so passive when not "fired up"!
>
Thanks, JoAnne...you raised a point which has a sort of dull nagging for me
these last 3 months...to share or not to share what I have been
experiencing...I really pondered this because I didn't want to evoke
uncomfortability on the list...in the end I opted to share what I thot
might serve the purpose of the list, without expectation of response,
because body mind spirit is relevant to the psyche or maybe *is* the
psyche...as I have said in the past, the sense of caring here is
palpable...I also know that *relating* to someone's experience is a tricky
thing...how does one find the doorway in?...I have no expectation as I have
said, only that to bring myself fully to this space with integrity and
authenticity which actually required that I share, edited tho it may be...

At the moment I have returned home...the medicals are still stumped so we
check the hole in my neck weekly and I pack it every day while my body
creates flesh...it has been an extremely unpleasant experience but the
learning has been the most profound as yet and in truth has delivered me to
the rest of my life and for that I am in awe...
Great to hear you
Judith
>
>Thanks all,
>JoAnne
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:25:40 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         renata <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Depression
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

-How are you doing with this "list"?



I must say I'm still quite uncomfortable with it.

People tend to be elaborate in a way I find hard to relate to ... they
have a "srieux" that I do not possess.

I tend to smile when I look upon myself and the world surrounding me ...



> > Language can dress bare thoughts and feelings

> Were you meaning that they are better dressed than bare?

I mean that thoughts and feelings can only be conveyed if we dress
them, be it with word or body language.

renata
==
Navigate with raging soul far from the paternal home






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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:12:26 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Depression
In-Reply-To:  <v01550100b315109ec1a1@[207.54.181.88]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:12:34 -0500, you, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>,
wrote:

>>Hi all, I've been sort of invisible for a while.
>>
>>I am writing with an agenda in mind, but first I want to say that Judith,
>>I have
>>been listening to you with interest and concern, but I haven't felt able to
>>contribute anything.  Perhaps I should say "I hear you" more often on this
>>list;
>>we all tend to be so passive when not "fired up"!
>>
>Thanks, JoAnne...you raised a point which has a sort of dull nagging for me
>these last 3 months...to share or not to share what I have been
>experiencing...I really pondered this because I didn't want to evoke
>uncomfortability on the list...in the end I opted to share what I thot
>might serve the purpose of the list, without expectation of response,
>because body mind spirit is relevant to the psyche or maybe *is* the
>psyche...as I have said in the past, the sense of caring here is
>palpable...I also know that *relating* to someone's experience is a tricky
>thing...how does one find the doorway in?...

Yes, exactly what I was feeling.  I don't want to just barge in, or assume I'm
in if I'm not.  It's hard to relate where I think I am when you tell us
something, and see if I'm really approaching the doorway.

>I have no expectation as I have
>said, only that to bring myself fully to this space with integrity and
>authenticity which actually required that I share, edited tho it may be...
>
>At the moment I have returned home...the medicals are still stumped so we
>check the hole in my neck weekly and I pack it every day while my body
>creates flesh...it has been an extremely unpleasant experience but the
>learning has been the most profound as yet and in truth has delivered me to
>the rest of my life and for that I am in awe...

I am reminded of any time I find some part of my body (or mind!) doing something
I didn't want or at least expect it to do.  We don't like to talk about that, do
we!  It causes fear.

In some place in our minds we are still perfectly healthy 16-year-olds, lungs
full of air, energy all over the place, with nothing more disturbing than a zit
or algebra test to worry us.  Even if we were never that perfectly healthy 16!

>Great to hear you

I'm glad you responded, Judith, and glad to hear from you.

JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:19:45 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Be Well
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Judith,&nbsp; I'm glad to hear that things are going better for you.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Warmly, Nancy

Thanks Nancy...the sun is shining this am
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:20:02 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Making connections
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

JoAnne and all,

snip...I also know that *relating* to someone's experience is a tricky
>>thing...how does one find the doorway in?...
>
>Yes, exactly what I was feeling.  I don't want to just barge in, or assume I'm
>in if I'm not.  It's hard to relate where I think I am when you tell us
>something, and see if I'm really approaching the doorway.

Isn't this a reality of living in a diverse time? Each of us IMO is
exploring our life in our uniquenesssameness...Doesn't this have something
to do with opening to awareness? In this accelerated time it feels like a
process of continuous process of dividing and redividing...and with the
acceleration it feels to me that paradoxically it requires slowing oneself
down...I was acutely aware in the midst of the worst part of the raging
infection that I was slowed down to seconds (of course it could be
attributd to the pain killer :-) and within those seconds were infinite
probabilities...finding connections between ourselves and others seems to
require slowing down lest we miss a sign on the path...then again I think
what you and I were feeling JoAnne in response to my post is what often
brings silence here...and here it is more keenly felt it seems to me...In
f2f life we may not notice the silences

My experience of my friends these last weeks speaks to this. The deeper I
went into the engagement with the condition, the more specific the
experience wasis to me, the less some could relate...the phone calls
dropped off to a trickle of those who related to the process...of course it
could be attributed to my *boringness* and apparant naval gazing :-)...

Because I am so aware of the moment, it seems to me that if it doesn't
relate to someone's current moment, spending time to find the doorway may
not be the personally efficient expenditure of energy...it certainly may
come up at a later moment or may not...

Well, from the length of this rambling you all can tell I have lots of
moments available...

>
>>I have no expectation as I have
>>said, only that to bring myself fully to this space with integrity and
>>authenticity which actually required that I share, edited tho it may be...
>>
>>At the moment I have returned home...the medicals are still stumped so we
>>check the hole in my neck weekly and I pack it every day while my body
>>creates flesh...it has been an extremely unpleasant experience but the
>>learning has been the most profound as yet and in truth has delivered me to
>>the rest of my life and for that I am in awe...
>
>I am reminded of any time I find some part of my body (or mind!) doing
>something
>I didn't want or at least expect it to do.  We don't like to talk about
>that, do
>we!  It causes fear.
>
>In some place in our minds we are still perfectly healthy 16-year-olds, lungs
>full of air, energy all over the place, with nothing more disturbing than a zit
>or algebra test to worry us.  Even if we were never that perfectly healthy 16!

Well, I'm working to connect with that balanced healthy place...
>>Great to hear you
>
>I'm glad you responded, Judith, and glad to hear from you.
It's been awhile...

Judith in relection
>
>JoAnne
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:20:17 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Learning from illness
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi, all,

Big revelantion this week after the doctor's appointment (evidentally the
US Army Pathology Organization is fast at work on the mystery)

I don't usually ask any questions mostly because I don't want the doctors
to feel bad, however, I this question slipped out *inadvertantly*...How
long will it take for the hole in my neck to fill in with new flesh? Her
answer "Oh, months"...I took a direct hit to my solar plexus...knocking me
off my equilibrium to be sure...immediately questions raced thru my
mind...how was I going to support myself? was it healthy to take Advil for
pain for months? who would want to date a woman with a hole in her neck?
and on and on...I made it to my car and the tears gushed directly from the
reality of anticipating months of packing the wound...mountains of four by
four surgical pads flashed...the pain of the mysterious condition which now
seemed to be closing my jaw meant no McDonald's Big Mac's to be sure...tho
if I took small enuf bites I could have chocolate...and what was this
craving for Coke...I hadn't had a soft drink in years and now I was downing
quarts, savoring the burning in my throat...remembering I was addicted to
coke in college...supporting my sense that this condition was a clearing
out of past unexpressed grief...the tears continued, I was experiencing
cleansing and an unfamiliar sense of relief...home, a calm decended and I
spent the rest of the day shoveling out the accumulation of dust from a
month of neglect...occasionally checking on my response to "Oh,
Months"...something was definitely reformulating in the space released by
the tears

By the next morning I awoke with an impetus to move which I hadn't felt for
months...or maybe even ever in this purity...I had been freed somehow into
my life...I was brought directly to the awareness that I had been in a
continuous time of *waiting*...tho I was calling it *staying in the
moment*, there was a subtle aspect which now surfaced...I was waiting to
heal so that I could get on with my life...Hadn't I just been thru that
with the tumor?...how many times had I asked of others, what are you doing
while you're healing?...the finger pointing at them slowly turned back on
myself in this newness...

The process of reformulation continued as I watched and breathed...I had an
overwhelming sense of wanting to give everything away...again I have done
this cleaning out many times before aware of the metaphor but it was
different...there was a direct connection...the stuffed tears of the past
finally finding release and with it a reality that this was not emotional
sublimation but *it*...I felt an eerie disconnection from any emotional
reality in the now...the sacred woundings of the past, so necessary to my
soul path, packed into my body now manifesting in some mysterious
condition, unnameable in the medicals terms...an organic process,
definitely unpleasant and requiring new skills (there's a reason I went
into computers and not nursing)...I reached for the rest of my chocolate
dessert...

Space...create space...how many times have I offered that to those who come
to me...the universe hates a vacuum I would say...my papermaking studio now
packed full a testiment to this truism...I awoke this morning laying very
still...fearful the impetus had subsided...but there it was in full
force...two days in a row...I found it interesting I wasn't concerning
myself if it would be here tomorrow...it was here and now...I eyed the
shoeboxes I hadn't opened in months...time to go...with a silent prayer
that my jaw would release I visualized a Big Mac as I turned Orff's Carmina
Burana up to 9...nothing like a few drunk Monks to bring joy to the
moment...

Judith indulging

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:56:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Learning from illness
In-Reply-To:  <v01550105b316757b940c@[207.54.181.88]>
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On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:20:17 -0500, you, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>,
wrote:

["months"]

>By the next morning I awoke with an impetus to move which I hadn't felt for
>months...or maybe even ever in this purity...I had been freed somehow into
>my life...I was brought directly to the awareness that I had been in a
>continuous time of *waiting*...tho I was calling it *staying in the
>moment*, there was a subtle aspect which now surfaced...I was waiting to
>heal so that I could get on with my life...Hadn't I just been thru that
>with the tumor?...how many times had I asked of others, what are you doing
>while you're healing?...the finger pointing at them slowly turned back on
>myself in this newness...

I'm smiling for you here, because of what is being released, I think.

>The process of reformulation continued as I watched and breathed...I had an
>overwhelming sense of wanting to give everything away...again I have done
>this cleaning out many times before aware of the metaphor but it was
>different...there was a direct connection...the stuffed tears of the past
>finally finding release and with it a reality that this was not emotional
>sublimation but *it*...I felt an eerie disconnection from any emotional
>reality in the now...the sacred woundings of the past, so necessary to my
>soul path, packed into my body now manifesting in some mysterious
>condition, unnameable in the medicals terms...an organic process,
>definitely unpleasant and requiring new skills (there's a reason I went
>into computers and not nursing)...I reached for the rest of my chocolate
>dessert...
>
>Space...create space...how many times have I offered that to those who come
>to me...the universe hates a vacuum I would say...my papermaking studio now
>packed full a testiment to this truism...I awoke this morning laying very
>still...fearful the impetus had subsided...but there it was in full
>force...two days in a row...I found it interesting I wasn't concerning
>myself if it would be here tomorrow...it was here and now...I eyed the
>shoeboxes I hadn't opened in months...time to go...with a silent prayer
>that my jaw would release I visualized a Big Mac as I turned Orff's Carmina
>Burana up to 9...nothing like a few drunk Monks to bring joy to the
>moment...

Or a living Judith.

>Judith indulging

You go girl.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:59:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Steve to Judith [excrpt] Re: Y2K M Wheatley
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

All,

To qualify Judith's being-in-her-hole-in-the-neck moment, she and I,
professionally associated as teachers/mentors on the active edge of
learning/playing with adults, have renewed our dialogue. (It demands
energy!) I thought I would share some excerpts of my part to at least
qualify Judith's circumstance as including much other stuff; she has enough
energy today to heal and play. Selfishly, I'm grateful.

Yeah: Go girl!

***

She sent me an article by Margaret Wheatley sbout the Y2K situ; if you
remember, Charles is working with Wheatley's organization. In an earlier
post I made the following observation about the Y2K situation.

"It's not a symptom of unawareness; it's a symptom of awareness."

***

From that perspective, I offer some leaping subject matter, both about
where Judith and my dialogue is at, and, perhaps, of import to Netdynam one
way or the other. Also, perhaps not!

best regards to all,

Stephen

note: [edited in/out for this reposting]

>Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:15:29 -0500
>To: judithb@apk.net
>X-Attachments:
>
>Desse,

[snip]

>Last week I, for the first time and as a lurker, read [on another] email
>list the suggestion that the old patterns manifested out of the ineffable
>archetypes may be in a stage through which they will be reformulated. More
>broadly, the question on that list is how the paradox of crazy/ drunk/
>feminine beingingness/ relationship /creativity is to be, might be, can
>be, manifested.
>
>Here's the difficult conceptual field we're sort of at the edges of, at
>least in the consideration of it. One reason why Jung's framing is so
>essential, is that it is conceptually enabled to deal with oppositions,
>continuums, processes, [multiplicity, soul, depth], without shame; very
>important capability! So, when Alice O. Howell boils it down  to "It's
>about being who you really are." she's stating a superficially obvious
>explicit with a deceptively subtle implication.

>***
>
>It's unclear exactly what Wheatley is saying. Although it's comprehensible
>despite what's confusing or contradictory. Here's what I got, with some
>reading between the lines. On one hand, the dependency on complex
>artifactual systems becomes a layer interposed between us and the natural
>complex system, and the repercussions of this is that our whole life
>becomes less natural and more artificial. We've become less relational,
>less in our bodies, more materialistic, and more "systematic" really.
>Fritz would say we've become more prone to believe we can fill in the
>gaps, do end runs around the paradoxes, and live a life of convenient
>conviction.

[snip]

>Outside of those conservative [orthodox wisdom] schools lies a continuum
>of options, many of which are 'products' aimed to make the belief/ideal
>problem less problematic by amping it and thus allowing reality and
>creativity to recede into the background. [Disowned in this way, reality
>and creativity go into the 'dark'.]

>
>Basically, presence as an imperative, doesn't make sense to me. "Be
>present!", yes; "We all have to be present!", no, can't see the wisdom of
>such a trip.
>
>***
>
>But, still our opportunity is starting to look differently to me. Play,
>dance, creating, music, and somehow, some measure of ecstacy in the
>moment.
>
>"What did you learn?"
>
>"How to get out of my mind!"
>
>Is that where we're, um, headed?
>
>***
>
>Stephen
>
[note: Robert Fritz has observed how a person's being driven by their
beliefs, usually focused on the achievment of an ideal, tends to drive them
out of and away from the creative opportunity being in the *unideal* moment
presents to our attentiveness. He also has observed that collections of
beliefs and ideals are elaborated into worldviews that provide a further
impetus "out of the moment". He notes, finally, that no matter how driven
in this way we are, we do not obtain the ideal, nor do we make the
"unideal" any less a part of us, although he would say we may have limited
success in feeling that we have removed the unideal from our reality. A
delusion by any other name!]
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Sell your cleverness
and buy bewilderment.
Cleverness is mere
opinion. Bewilderment
brings intuitive
knowledge. -Rumi, ra
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:19:24 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Psyber folk,

I really like language. I almost always respond to a complexly subtle
concept elegantly put. Here is such one:

"a superficially obvious explicit with a deceptive;y subtle implication."

How wonderful, how subtle, how below the stream of ordinary discourse,
how interior. Do you know that the Tibetans do not in normal discourse
refer to themselves as Buddhists? They call themselves by a word which
means "inner people".

Has anyone seen the recent movie entilted "Wilde"?  It is re: the life
story of Oscar Wilde. In it Wilde makes the comment that one "must follow
one's nature" by which he means (in reference to himself) that he became
a homosexual much to his ruin and detriment. The lover he chose created
endless and ultimatley ruinously circumstances in Wilde's life.
Nonetheless he embraced his life "as it presented itself to him" (my
quotes) What a scary risky choice. Especially for some people. It seems
that Judith is embracing her life/her illness as it presents itself
to her.

What other choice is there? There are plenty of other choices - those
which result in the kind of lives that Stephen alludes to in his post -
inauthentioc, materialistsic, etc etc. HOWEVER, if you are materiualistic
- BE IT. BE inauthentic. BE BE BE. When you smile, smile, When you don't
smile, don't smile.

Just be aware.

Does that absolve everything?

I don't know.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:35:32 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
In-Reply-To:  <36F2BF5C.5823@coinet.com>
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Cheryl

> Just be aware.
>
> Does that absolve everything?

Your post giveds me an ease with which to face burdens, inner and
outer.

What a pleasure to wake to the two posts, yours and Stephen's.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:39:19 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Steve to Judith [excrpt] Re: Y2K M Wheatley
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a01b3180c9a92b0@[207.54.160.179]>
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On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:59:24 -0500, you, Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>, wrote:

>>Here's the difficult conceptual field we're sort of at the edges of, at
>>least in the consideration of it. One reason why Jung's framing is so
>>essential, is that it is conceptually enabled to deal with oppositions,
>>continuums, processes, [multiplicity, soul, depth], without shame; very
>>important capability! So, when Alice O. Howell boils it down  to "It's
>>about being who you really are." she's stating a superficially obvious
>>explicit with a deceptively subtle implication.

I struggle with this; I feel there is an objective reality which has more
"reality" to it than my subjective reality.  This objective reality is something
I'm discovering all the time through subjective experience.

>>It's unclear exactly what Wheatley is saying. Although it's comprehensible
>>despite what's confusing or contradictory. Here's what I got, with some
>>reading between the lines. On one hand, the dependency on complex
>>artifactual systems becomes a layer interposed between us and the natural
>>complex system, and the repercussions of this is that our whole life
>>becomes less natural and more artificial. We've become less relational,
>>less in our bodies, more materialistic, and more "systematic" really.
>>Fritz would say we've become more prone to believe we can fill in the
>>gaps, do end runs around the paradoxes, and live a life of convenient
>>conviction.

My fear is that doing the opposite leads to a life of convenient solipsism.
"Because I feel it it must be so" can end up in all kinds of horror -- murder,
bigotry, illusion.

>>Outside of those conservative [orthodox wisdom] schools lies a continuum
>>of options, many of which are 'products' aimed to make the belief/ideal
>>problem less problematic by amping it and thus allowing reality and
>>creativity to recede into the background. [Disowned in this way, reality
>>and creativity go into the 'dark'.]

Yes, that's a problem, but what is the difference between the 'product' as it
was envisioned by the originator and the 'reality' of the originator?  In most
cases, when I've found a system or 'rule' or general picture or the like, it's
because of a sharp intuitive insight that all that I'm seeing is part of one
pattern, a recognition rather than an imposition.

I guess what I'm saying is that the imposition of someone else's idea of reality
onto me is not what I think of as reality, yet that does not discount my own
discovery of a similar or even identical system or picture, sometimes
independently, sometimes after having that vision communicated to me.

>>Basically, presence as an imperative, doesn't make sense to me. "Be
>>present!", yes; "We all have to be present!", no, can't see the wisdom of
>>such a trip.

What's the difference between the two, though?  "Be present" is spoken to all,
is it not?

>[note: Robert Fritz has observed how a person's being driven by their
>beliefs, usually focused on the achievment of an ideal, tends to drive them
>out of and away from the creative opportunity being in the *unideal* moment
>presents to our attentiveness. He also has observed that collections of
>beliefs and ideals are elaborated into worldviews that provide a further
>impetus "out of the moment".

But aren't they born in the moment experiences?  Is he just speaking against
extending my moment into time or a system?

>He notes, finally, that no matter how driven
>in this way we are, we do not obtain the ideal, nor do we make the
>"unideal" any less a part of us, although he would say we may have limited
>success in feeling that we have removed the unideal from our reality. A
>delusion by any other name!]

Where does reality become unreal?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:18:57 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There IS no inner and outer, no objectivity and subjectivity. Reality is
SEAMLESS (oh how I wish for italics!) It is only our two dimensional
linear THINKING which sets up these categories. Reality FLOWS. The inner
IS the outer, the outer IS the inner - it just takes lots and lots of
silence to see it. The rest is just mental noise, false dichotomies,
egoistic based self-flattery - or fearful denial - "THAT'S not me, that's
not ME." We can see ourselves each moment if we have the courage.

Gulp.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:40:56 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
In-Reply-To:  <36F2F781.37E5@coinet.com>
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Cheryl, JoAnne, Stephen,

I just cant wait get into this discussion more fully... we are
about to go out for a long walk.  However just want to say that I
am loving your bold *knowing* Cheryl (that is me using italics,
how does that look?).  I sense you totally present when you add
the Gulp.  Thank you.

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:38:14 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      obsubjective experience
In-Reply-To:  <36f5878b.162159156@mail.digex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hiya JoAnne,

You write,

>I struggle with this; I feel there is an objective reality which has more
>"reality" to it than my subjective reality.  This objective reality is
>something
>I'm discovering all the time through subjective experience.

So, (if I understand what you say about your experience here), would you
also say: "I'm discovering objective reality's 'more reality' through
subjective experience"?

I tend to believe my subjective reality is commensurate with objectivity,
and thus the particular of who I am is commensurate also. Talk about a
convenient belief! However, also for me, it doesn't matter, this or that,
one or many, important or essential. . .I'm becoming less able to decide
for myself.

***

I share your fear.

>My fear is that doing the opposite leads to a life of convenient solipsism.
>"Because I feel it it must be so" can end up in all kinds of horror -- murder,
>bigotry, illusion.

Is it a continuum, of knowing and, also, of not knowing? How many different
factors may drive each of our various "must be so"s! [A] might be known
clearly, even objectively by one person, and be the certain result of nutty
inferences of another person. Generally,  we can't then say one person's
way of getting to [A] will eventuate more horror then another person's, if
[A] is nonetheless pregnant with the possibility of horror;

What I wonder about is, if it is a continuum, do we put the solipsistic
disposition in the middle or on one end? :-)

***

no easy answers, eh? thanks for the provocative response,

regards,

Stephen



A branch shorn of leaves
A crow perching on it -
This autumn eve.

::Basho

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:04:34 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      originator and the 'reality'
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

JoAnne writes,

"Yes, that's a problem, but what is the difference between the 'product' as it
was envisioned by the originator and the 'reality' of the originator?"

Does very much rides on the envisioning of the product being the same as
the reality of the originator? On one hand, there's probably a catagorical
difference. This doesn't stop people from offering or accepting a product
along the lines of "Do this so your reality may obtain a stage like or very
similar or sympathetic to my own". On the other hand, in varying degrees,
someone's choice to access the product may have nothing to do with the
reality of the originator, the content of the product and everything to do
with how the situation might be maneuvered or manipulated to cause, umm, a
sale!

I recognize, Jo, when you tell

"when I've found a system or 'rule' or general picture or the like, it's
because of a sharp intuitive insight that all that I'm seeing is part of
one pattern, a recognition rather than an imposition."

...part of the picture of your personal process and its value and
effectiveness. There's not much more that comes up for me; you're fortunate!

Jo writes,

"I guess what I'm saying is that the imposition of someone else's idea of
reality
onto me is not what I think of as reality," [snip]

I'm reminded of the game titled, "Guess What the Teacher's Reality Is". A
person goes to the pious and holy Hindu Saint feeling all along 'Yes!
Godhead, here I come!' and the Saint sends you home to clean your house.

"Don't worry reality. First things first".

***

I was told once, "You want to focus on religion, and you can't even think
straight!" I would be surprised to ever be in the circumstance in which the
originator's reality had become, for me, the primary consideration. But,
then, I'm still trying to straighten out the thinking! :-)

***

aak,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:42:21 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
In-Reply-To:  <36F2F781.37E5@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cheryl, yo,

>There IS no inner and outer, no objectivity and subjectivity. Reality is
>SEAMLESS

Seemless too?

***

(Don't mind if I parse in honor of saying what you know.)

}

(oh wish!) is only
FLOWS. IS IS lots lots
rest mental false denial

THAT'S that's
see we courage.

Gulp.

***

thanks gogirls,
been a blessin' this eve.

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:35:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      herebenow
In-Reply-To:  <36f5878b.162159156@mail.digex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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joAnne,


>>>Basically, presence as an imperative, doesn't make sense to me. "Be
>>>present!", yes; "We all have to be present!", no, can't see the wisdom of
>>>such a trip.
>
>What's the difference between the two, though?  "Be present" is spoken to all,
>is it not?

I hope there's a difference, or I've wasted some virtual paper. Again.

Spoken to all, one is a didactic, commanding "have to be" and the other to
make the difference more distinct, read as an intense suggestion. I suppose
either might startle a person in presence into non-presence!

***

JoAnne:

> Is he just speaking against
>extending my moment into time or a system?

Since he is talking about what is the set up for *creating*, he begins by
sorting through all the factors that people intermix in the succession of
moments, (my term by the way, not his), among which are the various motives
close us instead of open us. A mundane example would be if I suggested that
you and I go sit on the blanket and watch the shooting stars, and then I
lay down and started thinking about answering my email. I'm in the moment,
sure, thinking about email, but I'm missing the stars because my attention
is focused on some future objective.

Let's adjust the example, you suggest to me to go watch the stars, and,
because I'm such a smarty pants, I lay back and reflect upon my worldview
about stars, I'm looking but also thinking, "Emmm, burning balls of gas
born out of hot and vast plumes of superheated gases blah blah." In both
cases, the disposition he's suggesting is optimal for being open to *what
we do not know*, (as he explains it in his book _Creating_) would be
missing.

(There's a saying, and I've adjusted it a little: 'Be not concerned with
having your moments serve your choices, but rather concern yourself with
having your choices serve the moment.')


>
>Where does reality become unreal?
>

Really!

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:05:30 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
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Stephen,

Seemless
Yes
Seems less
less is more

where did eveything go?
:)

We could get very strange here!

Be yourself.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:31:06 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I hope this thread continues!

Oh, and let me second the *yougogirls*  !

Sheryl :)

"There is no 'other world.'  I only know what I've experienced.  You must be
hallucinating."  -- Rumi

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:13:59 -0800
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Memo

To:     Sheryl
From:   Cheryl
Re:     One and the Same
Date:   March 20, 1999

The is no other
Hallucinate away


:)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:30:10 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
I'm not much of a Rumi fan, but I really like this one.&nbsp; Thanks for
sharing it, Sheryl,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Nancy
<p>Sheryl Garner wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>I hope this thread continues!
<p>Oh, and let me second the *yougogirls*&nbsp; !
<p>Sheryl :)
<p>"There is no 'other world.'&nbsp; I only know what I've experienced.&nbsp;
You must be
<br>hallucinating."&nbsp; -- Rumi
<p>____________________________________________________________
<br>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
<br>here:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html">http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html</a></blockquote>
</html>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:40:05 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
In-Reply-To:  <36F3F742.69165206@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>I'm not much of a Rumi fan, but I really like this one.  Thanks for
>sharing it, Sheryl,
>   Nancy

But Rumi's not the only celeb out there. If I might contribute a ditty by
Nasir-I Kushraw (may his memory be blessed; 1004-1078) a Persian poet
somewhat less unsober than Rumi, ra; in fact, the heart of a satirist beat
in him.

***

Homo Ludens

The world knows the GAME -
     don't cut yourself in.
Even swiftflying hawks
     will fall in the snare.
I build a palace
    the world pulls it down:
what do you call this
     but PLAY?
What is it: Ludus?
    that from which nothing
is gained. But you
     are mad for it.
In the claws of the worldhawk
     your hair goes piebald grey;
now turn back
     from thsi pointless Play,
Youth was a downward slope
     - easy breathing, head held high -
now the upward climb of old age
     and you hang your head.
Youth a descent
     you rushed unchecked;
but now before the hill of age
     you gape and yawn
'When I was young
     I did so-and-so'
but now you've grown old
     why boast over nothing?
When you were so rich
     why didn't you stash something
to tide you over now
     you're down and out?
Your 'states' are like
     fish in the sea:
in the sea who owns them
     mon brave?
World's face embroidered
     with playfulness:
turn away and sew up
     your own affairs.
Unless you turn body and soul
     to  gnosis and devotion
those two uncaring frauds
     will cheat you blind.
Circling. . .circling -
     close the circle - die,
If you do not start NOW
     when will you start?
Screwing around, ballgames
     injustice, backbiting, theft
lying, conning, putting it on,
     pride, impudence and slander:
demongames
     set-ups for the Fire -
get out of them
     heave them overboard.
At school they force knowledge
     down your throat;
ignorance sings harmonies with you
     when you harmonize with 'Nature'.
Why aren't you greedy
     for knowledge? you're usually
voracious, a glutton for
     whatever you don't have.
I heard you boasting of
     your eloquent Arabic.
Idiot! Arabic - its only value
     is to read the Quran
the Treasury of Knowledge
     for those who read it passionless -
and what enticed you to poetry
     if not your passions?
Mine of Divine Mysteries
     you scorn it
intimate playfellow
     of lying devils.
If I'm to be called
     your fellow religionist
you'll have to cut yourself
     off from such friends
O Nasir! cut yourself off indeed
     O PROOF! from braggarts
and seekers of fame, for you
     are a man of truth and piety.
It's enough if you can
     escape from their clutches -
cut the story short and leave off
     talking about Persians.
For in your heart are
     ambergris-scented rose-tinted
brocades which you
     the perfumer, the draper
will offer to
     the wise.

***

As for poetry in this "mode", Nasir has this *tough* advice:

You don't believe me?
     Try it yourself
and test the worth of my poem -
     read it and memorize it!

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:41:25 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a00b31a92c6abdd@[207.54.160.121]>
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Stephen, Cheryl, Sheryl, Nancy, Judith, JoAnne, renata

Being myself... oh shit.  How hard... I am going through a
variety of agonies really... don't want to bring them here, how
can i be myself?  Now feel ashamed, Judith, you bring your very
physical grapplings here...

I am enjoying the ontology poems and I have been calling the
short wise gogirl exchanges.  I feel prosaic overall, reluctant
to write, as i fear there will be no poetry, but something dry,
not a lively brook of wisdom...

I will come back to my here and now feelings at some point... but
want to respond to

Nasir-I Kushraw (that Stephen posted):

I couldn't really grasp it all, but liked it a lot.  I could do
with a bit of teaching on the poem, some context and some handles
on it.  Is that to go against its spirit?  Dependence?  (You can
se what sort of agonies I am having!)

Let me say what bits I liked, and what I make of it all, so that
I am not utterly dependent, though I might look foolish:

> Homo Ludens

Made me think of the Fool.  I have been enjoying
http://www.fool.com  If Ludens is something about being playful,
Foolish, then satirically, play might be wisdom... "Embracing the
Paradox" ...

~~~ quote ~~~
The Motley Fool name comes directly from Shakespeare's "As You
Like It," from Act II, scene VII in which Jacques (quite a Fool
himself) utters, "A fool, a fool, I see a fool i' the forest, a
motley fool," going on to say "I am ambitious for a motley coat,"
and "Motley's the only wear." Motley is of course the
parti-colored garment worn by Elizabethan court jesters. And
Fools were the happy fellows who were paid to entertain the king
and queen with self-effacing humor that instructed as it amused.
In fact, Fools were really the only members of their societies
who could tell the truth to the King or Queen without having
their heads lopped off. They had a freedom of speech that makes
even our own Constitutional one look weak by comparison.
~~~ end quote ~~~


> Youth was a downward slope
>      - easy breathing, head held high -
> now the upward climb of old age
>      and you hang your head.
> Youth a descent
>      you rushed unchecked;
> but now before the hill of age
>      you gape and yawn

I did!  I did, I loved the downward run!  And now i do feel tired
at the trudge up the hill...



> For in your heart are
>      ambergris-scented rose-tinted
> brocades which you
>      the perfumer, the draper
> will offer to
>      the wise.

I like the sound of those lines... the Foolishness we can offer
to the wise?

Stephen... is it ok just to chat about this poem a bit more?



Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:48:35 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Dan Watkins
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19990323204107.00ae8350@swlink.net>
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Welcome Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>


> My name is Dan Watkins. I am a "fan" of Carl Jung and have been studying
> his works for 20+ years. Lately I am particularly interested in Jung and
> Jungian psychology and its relations to politics. I am interested in
> joining the list with a view to learning more about this and other Jung
> related and depth-psychology topics.


Could you say something just briefly about Jung and politics?

Are you familiar with Giegerich who has recently been writing I
think as a Jungian, about how the soul, has evolved, to embrace
such phenomena as globalisation, the drives for profit etc?
He knocked the idea that cyberspace might also be a form of
soulmaking, an idea i rather like.  (I have some links to his
writing on the Psybernet links page:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/links.htm


Hope you enjoy it here!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:06:23 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Making connections
In-Reply-To:  <v01550103b3166f0b112d@[207.54.181.88]>
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Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>

  Making connections
  Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:20:02 -0500


> My experience of my friends these last weeks speaks to this. The deeper I
> went into the engagement with the condition, the more specific the
> experience wasis to me, the less some could relate...the phone calls
> dropped off to a trickle of those who related to the process...of course it
> could be attributed to my *boringness* and apparant naval gazing :-)...

I have an old open wound, which will not heal, and i am angry
with it... I am loathe to mention it at all and mention it here.
I am loathe to mention it because I have before, and many times
to some of my friends.  I am boring and going on about something
endlessly, and don't really go into anything specific...

I am talking about a grief, which is hard to hang on anything
specific, but it is strong now that I have completed my thesis.
I loved getting it done, and have a sense of completion, but one
of the unforseen consequences is that many difficulties with
relationships with individuals and organisations have resurfaced
as a result of my status as a "Psychodrama Director" ... I'd sort
of forgotten that would happen.  Something like that happens in a
social context.  I have unfinished business with the
organisations and I have a lack of full trust in the
psychodramatic methods, a bad combination, especially as that
involves my social world of about 20 years, and my training for
about as long.  Like leaving a church... this grief has been with
me for about 7 years!  I can't get out of it.

Judith, it is much easier to encourage you to speak here about
your processes, your "navel gazing" ... in other words your
journey!  It seems fine and brave for you to do that.  It does
not feel fine for me to bring my gnawing grief.  Yet I am glad i
have... gnawing grief... it is satisfying to hang those words on
it.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:07:37 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
In-Reply-To:  <36f9dd8a.266336889@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:48 PM 3/24/99 GMT, you wrote:
>Welcome Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
>
>
>> My name is Dan Watkins. I am a "fan" of Carl Jung and have been studying
>> his works for 20+ years. Lately I am particularly interested in Jung and
>> Jungian psychology and its relations to politics. I am interested in
>> joining the list with a view to learning more about this and other Jung
>> related and depth-psychology topics.
>
>
>Could you say something just briefly about Jung and politics?
>
>Are you familiar with Giegerich who has recently been writing I
>think as a Jungian, about how the soul, has evolved, to embrace
>such phenomena as globalisation, the drives for profit etc?
>He knocked the idea that cyberspace might also be a form of
>soulmaking, an idea i rather like.  (I have some links to his
>writing on the Psybernet links page:
>
>http://www.psybernet.co.nz/links.htm
>
>
>Hope you enjoy it here!
>
>
>Walter

Dear Walter,

Thanks for the welcome. I can't comment on Giegerich because I haven't read
him, but will check out the links you provide when I can.

As for Jung and politics, I am interested in trying to recover and
understand what Jung himself thought about politics - his "political
philosophy," as someone put it to me. Jung was of course always primarily
interested in the individual and the development of the individual, not
politics, but, as you know, there is always - to say the least - a
"tension" between the individual and the community, if not a downright
difference in their interests. The question is always how to "hold" the
community - to sustain a community-holding temenos - while at the same time
allowing/encouraging the individuation of the individual. Jung himself
advocates a certain kind of aristocracy - I find that this somtimes upsets
people, but I think we have to understand what Jung means by it. As an
American, I am also interested in Jung's critique of American politics and
the American regime/culture, particularly its globilizing tendency.

I love Jung. In general, I am more interested in what he thought than in
what his various students have thought (with von Franz as an exception). I
have sometimes been accused of being slavish in my approach to Jung's
thought, and it has been suggested at times that I should "get past" some
of his ideas - but it is a lot to get past. I don't think that I will ever
get as far as he did, much less past. Therefore, when I talk about Jung I
usually just talk about Jung and try to understand his ideas. I hope that
this will not be unwelcome to other list members.

I must rush off now, but am looking forward to future posts and list
participation. Thanks.

Best wishes,

Dan

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:15 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Subject:      Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
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Welcome, Dan.  I'm a new student of Jung but I would think that a lot of his
work on the human shadow would cast a lot of wisdom on politics.  I think
that politics actually involves a lot of individuation, not just collective
integration.  If politics is about the interaction of individuals and groups
of individuals, then Jung's shadow work should enlighten our understanding
of politics.  I don't think we necessarily need to go right to any direct
statements by Jung on politics--understanding the basic mechanism of
unconscious projection out of the shadow yields a lot of insight.

>
>
>> My name is Dan Watkins. I am a "fan" of Carl Jung and have been studying
>> his works for 20+ years. Lately I am particularly interested in Jung and
>> Jungian psychology and its relations to politics. I am interested in
>> joining the list with a view to learning more about this and other Jung
>> related and depth-psychology topics.
>
>
>Could you say something just briefly about Jung and politics?
>
>Are you familiar with Giegerich who has recently been writing I
>think as a Jungian, about how the soul, has evolved, to embrace
>such phenomena as globalisation, the drives for profit etc?
>He knocked the idea that cyberspace might also be a form of
>soulmaking, an idea i rather like.  (I have some links to his
>writing on the Psybernet links page:
>
>http://www.psybernet.co.nz/links.htm
>
>
>Hope you enjoy it here!
>
>
>Walter

Dear Walter,

Thanks for the welcome. I can't comment on Giegerich because I haven't read
him, but will check out the links you provide when I can.

As for Jung and politics, I am interested in trying to recover and
understand what Jung himself thought about politics - his "political
philosophy," as someone put it to me. Jung was of course always primarily
interested in the individual and the development of the individual, not
politics, but, as you know, there is always - to say the least - a
"tension" between the individual and the community, if not a downright
difference in their interests. The question is always how to "hold" the
community - to sustain a community-holding temenos - while at the same time
allowing/encouraging the individuation of the individual. Jung himself
advocates a certain kind of aristocracy - I find that this somtimes upsets
people, but I think we have to understand what Jung means by it. As an
American, I am also interested in Jung's critique of American politics and
the American regime/culture, particularly its globilizing tendency.

I love Jung. In general, I am more interested in what he thought than in
what his various students have thought (with von Franz as an exception). I
have sometimes been accused of being slavish in my approach to Jung's
thought, and it has been suggested at times that I should "get past" some
of his ideas - but it is a lot to get past. I don't think that I will ever
get as far as he did, much less past. Therefore, when I talk about Jung I
usually just talk about Jung and try to understand his ideas. I hope that
this will not be unwelcome to other list members.

I must rush off now, but am looking forward to future posts and list
participation. Thanks.

Best wishes,

Dan

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:39:52 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Making connections
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Dear Walter,

Yes, often how difficult it is to *move on*, to make the decision to leave
the past and open to newness...yet how unsatisfying to expend one gromet of
energy with something that doesn't feed one...it's cliched to mention how
an illness changes ones perspective...but in a metaphoric sense leaving the
past and feeling the grief is about a death...I've come face to face with
the reality of leaving the earth which I love...in those moments of
quietness the sun is brighter, the love I have is fuller, and those things
which no longer serve my journey fall away...yet tears still flow when I
think of leaving my son...

>Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
>
>  Making connections
>  Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:20:02 -0500
>
>
>> My experience of my friends these last weeks speaks to this. The deeper I
>> went into the engagement with the condition, the more specific the
>> experience wasis to me, the less some could relate...the phone calls
>> dropped off to a trickle of those who related to the process...of course it
>> could be attributed to my *boringness* and apparant naval gazing :-)...
>
>I have an old open wound, which will not heal, and i am angry
>with it... I am loathe to mention it at all and mention it here.
>I am loathe to mention it because I have before, and many times
>to some of my friends.  I am boring and going on about something
>endlessly, and don't really go into anything specific...

Oh, but Walter I believe that it is important to be witnessed in such times...
>
>I am talking about a grief, which is hard to hang on anything
>specific, but it is strong now that I have completed my thesis.
>I loved getting it done, and have a sense of completion, but one
>of the unforseen consequences is that many difficulties with
>relationships with individuals and organisations have resurfaced
>as a result of my status as a "Psychodrama Director" ... I'd sort
>of forgotten that would happen.  Something like that happens in a
>social context.  I have unfinished business with the
>organisations and I have a lack of full trust in the
>psychodramatic methods, a bad combination, especially as that
>involves my social world of about 20 years, and my training for
>about as long.  Like leaving a church... this grief has been with
>me for about 7 years!  I can't get out of it.

Walter, there is a process in physics which is called clinging...just
before a structure which has been under pressure to reformulate comes to
the moment of reformulation,, the structure *clings* to itself with the
most tenacity...one way to look at it is the process of turning water into
steam...in order for the structure of the water to give way to a
reformulation you gotta keep the heat turned up...in my experience this is
directly related to those who are comfortable or at least can tolerate
turning the heat up...I think of this time in the universe's evolution in
this metaphor...the heat is definitely being turned up and we are certainly
clinging

And could it be that the grief you are feeling is yours *and* intensified
by the collective grief?

I am offering this Walter in humbleness given your expertise


>Judith, it is much easier to encourage you to speak here about
>your processes, your "navel gazing" ... in other words your
>journey!  It seems fine and brave for you to do that.  It does
>not feel fine for me to bring my gnawing grief.  Yet I am glad i
>have... gnawing grief... it is satisfying to hang those words on
>it.

Some of us are more private than others...and our socialization plays a
part doesn't it...keep our dirty laundry to ourselves, put on a social
face...

Again, IMO knowing you are witnessed here is important and I want to
acknowledge my witnessing of your grief

Judith in lovingkindness

Oh, people learning to walk a tightrope at sometime must let go of the
platform and head out across the wire...I've found making sure there is a
net essential to the process:-)


>
>Walter
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:56:11 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19990324070737.00a4e4d0@swlink.net>
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I've met Dan on one or the other of the Jung lists I joined months ago.
Welcome, Dan, I've enjoyed talking (wrangling!) with you there and look forward
to your participation here.

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:07:37 -0800, you, Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>,
wrote:

>As for Jung and politics, I am interested in trying to recover and
>understand what Jung himself thought about politics - his "political
>philosophy," as someone put it to me. Jung was of course always primarily
>interested in the individual and the development of the individual, not
>politics, but, as you know, there is always - to say the least - a
>"tension" between the individual and the community, if not a downright
>difference in their interests.

If there isn't it seems to me there is no community!  Just a collection of
people.  Thanks for mentioning this, it clarified a thought I was having just
yesterday about different email lists being alive or dead at different times and
the role of conflict.

[the rest snipped for space 'cause I had no comment]

>I must rush off now, but am looking forward to future posts and list
>participation. Thanks.

Glad to see you here, Dan.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:02:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Making connections

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:06:23 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
wrote:


> I have a lack of full trust in the
>psychodramatic methods, >
>
>Walter
>
  I wonder if you might be able to expand on this statement here, Walter?
As I think I may have mentioned before my own experiences with psychodrama
haven't been good.  (Partly because I involuntarily got into a situation
with a man of very little training.)  Like most schools of therapy, I
suspect it is not the best choice for every type of personality, but may
be for some.

Nancy
Wondering again
>__________________________________________________________________
>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:25:36 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
In-Reply-To:  <071A2DC9E07FD211A27500805F9F548925D39D@KG-EX01>
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At 09:25 AM 3/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Welcome, Dan.  I'm a new student of Jung but I would think that a lot of his
>work on the human shadow would cast a lot of wisdom on politics.  I think
>that politics actually involves a lot of individuation, not just collective
>integration.  If politics is about the interaction of individuals and groups
>of individuals, then Jung's shadow work should enlighten our understanding
>of politics.  I don't think we necessarily need to go right to any direct
>statements by Jung on politics--understanding the basic mechanism of
>unconscious projection out of the shadow yields a lot of insight.
>
>>
Dear Phillip,

Agreed. It would be fruitful, I think, to ask not only what disadvantages
but what advantages the shadow brings to politics.

Best wishes,

Dan

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:34:33 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
In-Reply-To:  <370c1ca3.163652031@mail.digex.net>
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At 05:56 PM 3/24/99 GMT, Joanne wrote:
>I've met Dan on one or the other of the Jung lists I joined months ago.
>Welcome, Dan, I've enjoyed talking (wrangling!) with you there and look
forward
>to your participation here.
>
Thanks. Nice to hear from you again, and same back atcha'.

Best wishes,

Dan

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:14:56 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Making connections

Dear Judith,
   Fraid I may have left you with the impression that I didn't ever observe
the influence of the outter world on my inner psychic condition.  So I
thought I'd let you be the first to know about my week.
   Since Monday (maybe longer) there has been more than the usual conflict
on the email lists and workshops in which I participate.  I also haven't
felt 'right': upset, angry, running a subnormal temp... etc. with less than
usual personal reason.
   Then I turned on Tv and heard about Serbia.
   This is by no means the first time I've noticed this kind of
synchronicity.  (I just couldn't see it last fall).
   Just thought I'd let you know,
   Blessings,  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:06:10 -0800
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Topics
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Psyber-folk,
So many many topics hae come up on this list in the last few days..that I
have nothing to say. How paradoxical.

Walter, I recognize and sympathize with your plight. And I agree with
Judith, some of us are more private than others.

Cheryl

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Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:09:44 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Making connections
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dear Nancy,
I didn't draw that conclusion...if truth were known I have wondered if you
entrain to *outter* experiences...I've even played with the idea of the
erruptions in Serbia may be connected through the collective somehow to the
condition growing in my neck which interestingly 3 days ago grew another
one...I have been following the Serbian erruption mostly because I must
stay close to home but also to see what's going on...
>Dear Judith,
>   Fraid I may have left you with the impression that I didn't ever observe
>the influence of the outter world on my inner psychic condition.  So I
>thought I'd let you be the first to know about my week.
>   Since Monday (maybe longer) there has been more than the usual conflict
>on the email lists and workshops in which I participate.  I also haven't
>felt 'right': upset, angry, running a subnormal temp... etc. with less than
>usual personal reason.
>   Then I turned on Tv and heard about Serbia.
>   This is by no means the first time I've noticed this kind of
>synchronicity.  (I just couldn't see it last fall).
>   Just thought I'd let you know,
There is alot of this not feeling *right* among my circle...people are
physically sick, others having the experience of being upset...It has been
my experience which was passed on from my teacher of years ago when I was
going thru intensified depression to ask me if what I was feeling was mine
(am I repeating myself...) I hadn't thought to ask that of myself until it
was pointed out

It is fascinating to me that this is occuring just as we leave the century
of 2 WW's both of which have their seeds in that region...I have empathy
for the Serbians, but my sense of their leader is the personification of
dare I say evil...so now action is being taken to reformulate a pattern
maybe?

>   Blessings,  Nancy
And peace to you,
Judith
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:27:45 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Baumann, Philip" <Philip.Baumann@CONECTIV.COM>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Good question!  I think Jung said that 90% of the shadow is gold.  If that's
the case, then there's a lot of shadow work to be done in politics.  If we
were to take the conflict in the Balkans, for instance, a lot of the racial
hatred displayed in the region is probably a lot of projection of the
"darker" parts of the self onto other people.  We saw this collective
projection in Nazi Germany and we see it here--to a much lesser extent, of
course--in our own country.  I don't think we can understand individuation
without the influence of the collective shadow since it is such a pervasive
energy into our individual psyches.  The advantages of positive politics is
the differentiation of the individual from the collective shadow--to
recognize its existence, to honor it and to develop the ego apart from the
unconscious shadowy aspects of the collective.  Good thread...



At 09:25 AM 3/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Welcome, Dan.  I'm a new student of Jung but I would think that a lot of
his
>work on the human shadow would cast a lot of wisdom on politics.  I think
>that politics actually involves a lot of individuation, not just collective
>integration.  If politics is about the interaction of individuals and
groups
>of individuals, then Jung's shadow work should enlighten our understanding
>of politics.  I don't think we necessarily need to go right to any direct
>statements by Jung on politics--understanding the basic mechanism of
>unconscious projection out of the shadow yields a lot of insight.
>
>>
Dear Phillip,

Agreed. It would be fruitful, I think, to ask not only what disadvantages
but what advantages the shadow brings to politics.

Best wishes,

Dan

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:18:13 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Making connections
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>Judith Buerkel wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Dear Nancy,
<br>I didn't draw that conclusion...if truth were known I have wondered
if you
<br>entrain</blockquote>
N;&nbsp; I don't know what this word means in this context.&nbsp; (I often
have this problem with
<br>the writing style you and Stephen use.)&nbsp; Just for the sake of
discussion I'm going to
<br>pretend that it means you aren't sure if I pay any attention to outter
experience.&nbsp; The
<br>answer to that varies a lot.&nbsp; As it happens this Serbian thing
'snuck up on me' (which I
<br>would tend to suppose might intensify its effect.)
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>to *outter* experiences...I've even played with the
idea of the
<br>erruptions in Serbia may be connected through the collective somehow
to the
<br>condition growing in my neck which interestingly 3 days ago grew another
<br>one...</blockquote>
N: Again I'm not sure I understand.&nbsp; Do the holes start with a boil
of some sort?&nbsp; Either
<br>way it must be very hard for you.&nbsp; I'm sorry.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; It seems to me so much harder to draw psychological conclusion
about illnesses that
<br>have rather long development states (such as my gall stones last fall.)&nbsp;
And even more so
<br>to effect psychological remedies...&nbsp; I guess because the roots
are ao deep and have been
<br>going on such a long time, often out of awareness.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>I have been following the Serbian erruption mostly
because I must
<br>stay close to home but also to see what's going on...
<br>>Dear Judith,
<br>>&nbsp;&nbsp; Fraid I may have left you with the impression that I
didn't ever observe
<br>>the influence of the outter world on my inner psychic condition.
<br>>&nbsp;&nbsp; This is by no means the first time I've noticed this
kind of
<br>>synchronicity.&nbsp; (I just couldn't see it last fall).</blockquote>
N: I had to watch myself with particular care when my children were young.&nbsp;
I was so
<br>prone to think first of psychological causes and be slow to take temperatures,
etc.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>There is alot of this not feeling *right* among my
circle...people are
<br>physically sick, others having the experience of being upset..
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
N: Interesting to have the same reactions popping up in different geograhy.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>It is fascinating to me that this is occuring just
as we leave the century
<br>of 2 WW's both of which have their seeds in that region..</blockquote>
N: Do you draw any tentative conclusions from the reoccurence of locate?
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>.I have empathy
<br>for the Serbians, but my sense of their leader is the personification
of
<br>dare I say evil...</blockquote>
N: Perhaps 'possessed by evil impulses'?&nbsp; To me it's worthy of remark
that the area is so
<br>close to that of our two greatest 'horror' legends: the vampire and
the werewolf.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>so now action is being taken to reformulate a pattern
<br>maybe?</blockquote>
N: I wonder if this action will be any more effective than those preseding
it...
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<br>>&nbsp;&nbsp; Blessings,&nbsp; Nancy
<p>>
<br>>____________________________________________________________
<br>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
<br>>here:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html">http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html</a>
<p>____________________________________________________________
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</html>

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Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:24:57 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19990324070737.00a4e4d0@swlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Greetings, Dan,

I've observed in lurker mode stimulating dialogues you've developed with
other thoughful types on "Jung" oriented lists. I look forward to your
participation here.

***

"The question is always how to "hold" the community - to sustain a
community-holding temenos - while at the same time allowing/encouraging the
individuation of the individual."

A big question; to draw the picture of all the polarities which intersect
in a given "community" (group? organization? polity?) is to visualize a
wheel with all its spokes. The gravity of what is most valued in the group
sense shifts even as it is subject to the averaging effect, (which may tend
to toss out the dynamicism of the extremes).

This is fascinating since there is any number of different qualities of the
collision between individual and community, and individual and group,
depending on all sorts of factors. For example, the American teenager fits
into his or her peer or more particularized group in a way and due to
factors which I suspect are different in some or most ways than similar
processes of fitting in are for other 'kinds' of teenagers, elsewhere. What
is personal, group-collected, culture-collected, (pardon the coinage!) and
universal? Around what symbols does a group organize itself consciously and
unconsciously?

***

Often in sensing the publicized position of politicians, I'm struck with
how bereft of both thinking and feeling the position is, which is to say
the position doesn't make sense. Of course it does make sense to an
extent...as an averaged message inputed to the collective sensibility, a
sensibility that doesn't need keen feeling or thinking to "know" what's
correct or incorrect. Then unintended consequences will eventually kick in.

Discrimination and what allows for it are another matter altogether.

***

regards, Stephen

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Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:53:27 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      profit taking
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Walter,

"about how the soul, has evolved, to embrace such phenomena as
globalisation, the drives for profit etc?"

(I'm unclear how the soul can embrace anything, or, alternately, given all
experiences from the perspective of our incarnation may be said to be
connected through our soul-full-ness, what would make such an assertion
into something other than a tautological statement.) Anyway, is not what
drives us beyond all reason or feeling, stuff which is numinous to us, or
onto which some sort of compelling projection has been cast?

There's is a price paid in declining eros, it seems. As Hillman has pointed
out, *profit* has had its significantly human meanings pared away from it
so that now it means to many people simply what's left over after you sell
something and pay your costs out.

If you don't mind a very cheap speculative formulation: "where the human
gets pared away the gods we're blind to rush in".

***

best to all,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:56:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      appreciation of cyberspace?
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Walter, all,

"He knocked the idea that cyberspace might also be a form of soulmaking, an
idea i rather like."

From my perspective, soulmaking is, (as simply as I can put it), what human
do with their learning, choicemaking, and doing, to, (ta da!) realize who
they really are. Cyberspace on the other hand may be perspected in a lot of
various ways. For example, it's medium, context, network, environment,
organization, system, group(s) of groups, etc. In these ways it provides
surprises, pleasures, rewards, dangers, adventure, and may lock us into old
patterns as well as provoke novel patterns.

(Does the net help us get more fully into our bodies? Generally, no. From
the frame of analytic psychology, is it right to associate this notion of
disembodiment with the psychology of the puer/puella, tentatively or poorly
integrated instincts, and a one sidedness which favors the expression and
consumption of psychoid energies, data, surprise, (etc.)? If so, what is
such a compensation referencing in a dynamical psyche? Harshly, some would
say, many cyberians are drunk on cyberspace.)

***

So, what would be a soul-full appreciation of cyberspace? What kind of
regard for cyberspace would reveal what is good, bad, neutral about it?
What may measure the hopes and hazard we experience and associate with
cyberspace?

***

(I'm reminded Walter three and half years ago I came into this group and
the discussion was about Indra, the spidery net, and maya in addition to
the fascinations of a 'place' which allows people to express and represent
themselves to, initially, strangers sitting at computers in far flung
places; spun together in a gossamer web...)

***

puer Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:11:16 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
In-Reply-To:  <36f8d514.264170549@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Waltyer wonders,

>Nasir-I Kushraw (that Stephen posted):
>
>I couldn't really grasp it all, but liked it a lot.  I could do
>with a bit of teaching on the poem, some context and some handles
>on it.  Is that to go against its spirit?  Dependence?  (You can
>se what sort of agonies I am having!)

Please not to worry. The poem is a kernal for you; that's it's spirit. (As
for further explaining, cogent or dumbly indulgent, only I am in a position
to become preachy, overwrought, arrogant, and tone deaf, and thus step
badly off the stairs.) I'm considering a foolish response.

Before I "go there", I'll identify three contexts, among several, which
come to mind. First, the context of Nasir-I-Kushraw, about which I can only
summarize secondary materials. Second, the context given by own intention,
and, this fit into, three, what is meaningful for whoever cares in the
scheme of what Psyber-L is tossing back and forth right now.

The poem was partly intended as a response to Nancy's saying she liked the
Rumi, but isn't a *fan*. (Later we learn someone is a Jung fan. Hmmmm.) And
of larger recent concern is what it means for each of us, (umm who care to
have this subject mean anything),

== Who we are, really. ==

Who we really are; who we want to be be; who are we; who are we to be? What
bridges who we are now with who we are...next?

***

Give me a moment to become quite pretentious about all this.

Stephen



parsing.
>> Homo Ludens
>
>Made me think of (what) the Fool.
>> will offer to
>>      the wise.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:42:43 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a01b31fed0081be@[207.54.181.52]>
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On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:24:57 -0500, you, Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>, wrote:

>A big question; to draw the picture of all the polarities which intersect
>in a given "community" (group? organization? polity?) is to visualize a
>wheel with all its spokes. The gravity of what is most valued in the group
>sense shifts even as it is subject to the averaging effect, (which may tend
>to toss out the dynamicism of the extremes).

I like this wheel shape idea, Stephen.

>Often in sensing the publicized position of politicians, I'm struck with
>how bereft of both thinking and feeling the position is, which is to say
>the position doesn't make sense. Of course it does make sense to an
>extent...as an averaged message inputed to the collective sensibility, a
>sensibility that doesn't need keen feeling or thinking to "know" what's
>correct or incorrect. Then unintended consequences will eventually kick in.

Sounds like the politician is trying to be the center and is averaging out the
spokes.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:51:43 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a01b31fed0081be@[207.54.181.52]>
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Dear Stephen,

Thanks. I came home from work today with 130+ e-mails - new record- so hope
I can keep up. I also look forward to future dialogue. Comments below.



At 01:24 PM 3/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Greetings, Dan,
>
>I've observed in lurker mode stimulating dialogues you've developed with
>other thoughful types on "Jung" oriented lists. I look forward to your
>participation here.
>
>***
>
>"The question is always how to "hold" the community - to sustain a
>community-holding temenos - while at the same time allowing/encouraging the
>individuation of the individual."
>
>A big question; to draw the picture of all the polarities which intersect
>in a given "community" (group? organization? polity?) is to visualize a
>wheel with all its spokes. The gravity of what is most valued in the group
>sense shifts even as it is subject to the averaging effect, (which may tend
>to toss out the dynamicism of the extremes).
>
>This is fascinating since there is any number of different qualities of the
>collision between individual and community, and individual and group,
>depending on all sorts of factors. For example, the American teenager fits
>into his or her peer or more particularized group in a way and due to
>factors which I suspect are different in some or most ways than similar
>processes of fitting in are for other 'kinds' of teenagers, elsewhere. What
>is personal, group-collected, culture-collected, (pardon the coinage!) and
>universal? Around what symbols does a group organize itself consciously and
>unconsciously?

I suspect that the group always tends to organize itself unconsciously
around the idea of the whole, or some reflection of that idea. I think that
what is universal is what Nietzsche calls, disparagingly, the "herd
instinct," and what I will prefer to call the political instinct or impulse.

Do groups organize themselve consciously? I should think, rather, that
certain individuals organize groups consciously to the degree that they are
consciously organized (Machiavelli comes to mind, and law givers in general).


>
>***
>
>Often in sensing the publicized position of politicians, I'm struck with
>how bereft of both thinking and feeling the position is, which is to say
>the position doesn't make sense. Of course it does make sense to an
>extent...as an averaged message inputed to the collective sensibility, a
>sensibility that doesn't need keen feeling or thinking to "know" what's
>correct or incorrect.

Yes, politicians must always speak to the collective in humanity - what
else can they do, esp. in a democracy (and not just because they want to be
re-elected either, although of course that is part of it)? When they know
better than the collective opinion ( and I think that they generally do),
they must be careful about how or if they say so. Statesmen can't always
tell the truth - FDR's handling of lend-lease always comes to my mind as an
example.

It seems to me that Jung suggests that collective/political life always and
necessarily takes place on a plane much lower than that necessarily
inhabited by the true individual (who is, btw, for Jung quite rare).

>Then unintended consequences will eventually kick in.
>
>Discrimination and what allows for it are another matter altogether.
>
>***
>
>regards, Stephen
>
Best wishes,

Dan

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:50:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Death ~ metaphoric and real
In-Reply-To:  <v01550118b31e68d8140c@[207.54.181.88]>
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Judith,

I am responding to:

  Re: Making connections
  Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:39:52 -0500


> Yes, often how difficult it is to *move on*, to make the decision to leave
> the past and open to newness...yet how unsatisfying to expend one gromet of
> energy with something that doesn't feed one...

The trouble for me with psychodrama is that it is so many things.
People, philosophy, methodology, my professional roots... there
are some things i need to let go of, and some are just fine, and
it is complex to disentangle.

The trouble is that there is a professional jargon: roles,
sociometry, psychodramatic, warm-up, etc.  it is so satisfying to
belong to a community that shares one language... here in
Psyber-L we have some of that... but those words would not have
much meaning for most here.  Ego, unconscious, shadow archetype,
are analytical psychology words... Jungian words which get loose
use, and that can be fun, but there is great satisfaction to use
them with precision.  I guess that is where the JUNG list comes
in, there it would be on topic to get all that exactly right.

When i go to places that speak psychodrama, i feel
uncomfortabl;e, and i feel uncomfortable speaking it too.  I can
really explain it.  Perhaps it is because I have grief about my
native Dutch as well?  I have a sense of false devotion to a
method by the "true believers", a sense of a cult.  Im glad to be
out of it, but I have not resigned fro the professional body.
But i am not much good with "belonging" ... and not much good at
NOT belonging either... more later perhaps when the word "fan"
comes up in some posts further along.

There is a death here for me... death of some friendships which
have gone!  They have no more life, the friendships can't be
rekindled.  I am thinking of several friendships here, with
personal and professional aspects.  When a friendship is dead,
that is a death.  Grief!

> it's cliched to mention how
> an illness changes ones perspective...but in a metaphoric sense leaving the
> past and feeling the grief is about a death...I've come face to face with
> the reality of leaving the earth which I love...in those moments of
> quietness the sun is brighter, the love I have is fuller, and those things
> which no longer serve my journey fall away...yet tears still flow when I
> think of leaving my son...

Judith, you are not speaking cliches. I am not sure about
metaphor or actual here, but the grief of the inevitable losses
is real and worth visiting. The dropping away and the sharper
focus on your son, painful, but also wonderful that such loving
can happen, still have its life.  I was thinking of our
discussion here as i heard a speech from Shakespeare today on the
radio.  I'll see if i can find it on the net, I thought of
friends who have died, but also friendships... and perhaps that
is metaphorical, but it helped with real grief:


Fear no more the heat o' the sun,
Nor the furious winter's rages;
Thou thy worldly task hast done,
Home art gone, and ta'en thy wages:
Golden lads and girls all must,
As chimney-sweepers, come to dust.

Fear no more the frown o' the great;
Thou art past the tyrant's stroke;
Care no more to clothe and eat;
To thee the reed is as the oak:
The sceptre, learning, physic, must
All follow this, and come to dust.

Fear no more the lightning flash,
Nor the all-dreaded thunder-stone;
Fear not slander, censure rash;
Thou hast finish'd joy and moan:
All lovers young, all lovers must
Consign to thee, and come to dust.

> Oh, but Walter I believe that it is important to be witnessed in such times...

I am pleased i have opened up here about it.

> Walter, there is a process in physics which is called clinging...just
> before a structure which has been under pressure to reformulate comes to
> the moment of reformulation,, the structure *clings* to itself with the
> most tenacity...one way to look at it is the process of turning water into
> steam...in order for the structure of the water to give way to a
> reformulation you gotta keep the heat turned up...in my experience this is
> directly related to those who are comfortable or at least can tolerate
> turning the heat up...I think of this time in the universe's evolution in
> this metaphor...the heat is definitely being turned up and we are certainly
> clinging

Good one.  Amazing how uncomfortable it can be ... knowing it
will all turn to steam soon does help though!

> And could it be that the grief you are feeling is yours *and* intensified
> by the collective grief?

Reading these lines were important... I think I tune into a lot
of shadow stuff in the group, and also am a "good listener" and
then hear about what goes on behind the scenes and in "private".
It is Ok, but it means I know about the hidden side of things.
More than i can always talk about.

> Some of us are more private than others...and our socialization plays a
> part doesn't it...keep our dirty laundry to ourselves, put on a social
> face...

Yes, and as Cheryl said (almost) If you are private BE private!
My privacy drops away when i feel ok with the people i am with,
and that is quite rare, apart from being with Kate, we are
"private" together :)  Psyber-l feels ok these days.  It is not
only Psyber-L of course, I have found a way of being less
conflicted about being a participant as well as a listowner ~
still carries some complexity for me, but it is better.  The
closed archives and more personal entry into Psyber-L give me a
sense of greater possibility, and more confidentiality, I am more
confident.

> Again, IMO knowing you are witnessed here is important and I want to
> acknowledge my witnessing of your grief
>
> Judith in lovingkindness

Thank you and I hope the witnessing can be a mutual thing.  You
need that to be sure.

Blessings


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:40:46 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      = Psybernet Update =
MIME-Version: 1.0
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= Psybernet Update =

SEARCH the Psybernet website

The link to the search engine is about half way down the page.
There is quite a bit of stuff that has accumulated over the
years, and the site is a bit *chaotic* but who cares when there
is a search engine!  Great that such things are free on the net,
and easy to install.

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/welcome.htm


ANNOTATED LINKS

I post up links to things I find interesting and related to
Psybernet.  I'd be pleased to add links and comments to the ones
already there, if you send them to me.

Recently added:  link to the articles by Judith S. Donath
Assistant Professor of Media Arts And Sciences
Director of the Sociable Media Group at the MIT Media Lab

There are also a swag of links to articles and books on
spirituality and technology.

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/links.htm


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:20:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      brooking foolishness 1
In-Reply-To:  <36f8d514.264170549@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Walter wonders,

"I couldn't really grasp it all"

Oh my goodness, join the club! You've already begun to dig for handles, in
the spirit of its containing some kernal, some grain to work at, with. You
write, "Dependence? (You can see what sort of agonies I am having!)"

Will you be returned to this at some point in the digging process?
(Possibly if you choose to play!)

***

It's okay to take the poem and your experience in your own direction. Its
kernal is deeply relevent; you've already made it so. The spirit of the
poem connects to your starting point, where you're at, what you bring to
the engagement. I intent to put a little warm pressure on you, as a way of
getting at your comments about the poem. You make some forthright
statements, from your moment; allow me to line them up.

(1) Being myself... oh shit. How hard...
(2) I am going through a variety of agonies really... don't want to bring
them here,
(3) how can i be myself?
(4) I feel prosaic overall, reluctant [snip]
(5) i fear there will be no poetry, but something dry, not a lively brook
of wisdom...

That's a great deal, right there, is it not? A lot of self-observing, a
giving up of how you feel, a tangible sense of ambivalence, a strong sense
that something is really going on for you...and then: 'hard' and
"reluctance" and "fear". I infer your prosaic state tends to dryness and
that some other or future state would be not so, rather it would a lively
brook of wisdom. Dryness...wetness, then. You start off with a basic and
existential admission. I follow it as a question, and a double sided
reflection; one the emotional 'oh shit' and the thought 'hard"; which I
read as somewhere between challenging and difficult.

***

For me, this report begs the questions, "What do you want right now." and
"What do you want right later". (Wordplaying is intentional!)

Walter, you seek to hold your cards tightly in this report, but I can see
that you're holding cards! You supply, in actuality, a very rich report of
your "state" and, even lacking specifics, my intuitive sense is that you
are, contrary to one aspect of how you feel, not holding back dryness

but a great deal of wetness, the brook, as you say, of, who you really are.

***
...is that enough context for you, friend?

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:45:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      brooking foolishness 3
In-Reply-To:  <36f3dd50.52321001@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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(Can't be sure yet, but Walter and Stephen may be playing a game together.)

***

>For in your heart are
>ambergris-scented rose-tinted
>brocades which you
>the perfumer, the draper
>will offer to
>the wise.

(Walter writes), "I like the sound of those lines... the Foolishness we can
offer to the wise?"

Let's sit with this, Walter, and see, first if you'll take up my challenge
to play and be foolish, second to get back to here. One of the difficulties
of a poem is, it's easy to read the whole poem. Your hint here is more
personal than you may realize.

I'd like to add my own hint. *It is said, the guru will tell the practical
person to be more impractical, and the impractical person to be more
practical.* Foolish advice?

***

Stephen


ps.
"Your If is the only peacemaker, much virtue in If."
Touchstone the Clown

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:44:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      brooking foolishness 2
In-Reply-To:  <36f8d514.264170549@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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Walter writes,

>Homo Ludens

"Made me think of the Fool."

Do you think fools ever feel much pressure to be foolish? In riffing about
fools and foolishness, you note, "Fools were really the only members of
their societies who could tell the truth to the King or Queen without
having their heads lopped off." So does foolishness descrribe an
opportunity?

***

Let's refer to near the beginning of the poem:

I build a palace
the world pulls it down:
what do you call this
but PLAY?
What is it: Ludus?
that from which nothing
is gained. But you
are mad for it.

About the poem, it's statements are stated with severity. Our connotations
may be required to change, to enable us to begin to find our way.

***

You wrote, "If Ludens is something about being playful, Foolish, then
satirically, play might be wisdom... " Your intuition is marvelous, yet,
for it to become powerful it needs to be driven into the very disturbing
implication: <<mad for PLAY from which is nothing is gained.>> (Ludus;
(yes), play, to game, to make sport of)

***

What comes up with wandering about fools, foolishness, being the fool?
What's the amplification? What kind of stuff, for example, lies between the
spontaneous, improvised 'foolery' of the child and the deception and
manipulation of the trickster, the mercurial fool? (These would be some
ways to work with your self just at this point in the poem; where you start
and where the poem begins...)

What is a fool's game? (Walter, I'm feeling how this could be like working
with the stuff of a dream game or glass bead game.) You bring the "fool" to
this poem; very profound, to me, for you to do so; you've latched on to a
handle quite adequate to the task.

But I guarantee that if you come to know this poem, it will bring out a
foolishness you may not know you have access to! That's the way it works.

***
playin'
Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:53:31 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a04b32037880d18@[207.54.181.52]>
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Stephen

I am responding to:  Re: Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself,   Thu,
25 Mar 1999 14:11:16 -0500, your first response to my
Foolishness!  Will get to the brooking Foolishness ones
soonish...

> Please not to worry. The poem is a kernal for you; that's it's spirit. (As
> for further explaining, cogent or dumbly indulgent, only I am in a position
> to become preachy, overwrought, arrogant, and tone deaf, and thus step
> badly off the stairs.) I'm considering a foolish response.

Hey!  We can't have two Fools!  The fool needs a Wise One to Fool
with.

> Please not to worry. The poem is a kernal for you; that's it's spirit.

But then that is pretty wise stuff!  And I like your explanations
... the simpler the better for me.  Oh what a yearning to be a
simple fool.

> Before I "go there", I'll identify three contexts, among several, which
> come to mind. First, the context of Nasir-I-Kushraw, about which I can only
> summarize secondary materials. Second, the context given by own intention,
> and, this fit into, three, what is meaningful for whoever cares in the
> scheme of what Psyber-L is tossing back and forth right now.

> The poem was partly intended as a response to Nancy's saying she liked the
> Rumi, but isn't a *fan*. (Later we learn someone is a Jung fan. Hmmmm.)

My agony in "being yourself"... I have been too much a "fan" and
then i come a cropper as disillusionment sets in.  Can you be
yourself and a "fan"?  I suppose so; If you are a fan then BE a
fan.  But I am a partial fan, never utterly making the leap.  Ok
if you are a somewhat luke about being a fan then BE luke about
it.  That is what i am doing with my declarations here... I am in
a swampland, I only flow when it gets really wet, ie as i posted
in to Judith in another thread, or she to me, in different words:
going with the flow of life can be uncomfortable, and so we
cling, but if with really intense discomfort we just have to let
go.

> And
> of larger recent concern is what it means for each of us, (umm who care to
> have this subject mean anything),
>
> == Who we are, really. ==
>
> Who we really are; who we want to be be; who are we; who are we to be? What
> bridges who we are now with who we are...next?
>
> ***

... we are who we are so we don't have too much say in that, we
cant just be anything.


Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself


I am a moss on the tree of ideas.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:11:21 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
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Walter,
I have to say, you are sounding very different in these last few posts.
But I like it. Is this a new modeling behaviour? This could be fun.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Mar 1999 03:57:53 GMT
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
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Cheryl

> Is this a new modeling behaviour?

Cheeky!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:29:46 -0800
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Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Embracing Paradox/Being Yourself
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Walter,

Quite.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:31:57 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Making connections
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Nancy,
Just a quick response before I go out into the sun...I was responding to
your post which I am assuming was meant to clarify something of
before...where you infered I might have drawn a conclusion...to this I
respond that I did not draw that conclusion...

I didn't draw that conclusion...if truth were known I have wondered
>if you
>entrain


>N;; I don't know what this word means in this context. (I often
>have this problem with
>the writing style you and Stephen use.;

Entraining for me in this context was used as the process where things come
into resonance together as with striking a tuning fork...so in the context
of *inner/outter* what I meant was that your sensitivity resonnates to
certain aspect in the collective which is manifesting in the *outter*...

Anyway I fear I have made it no clearer
N: Just for the sake of
>discussion I'm going to
><br>pretend that it means you aren't sure if I pay any attention to outter
>experience.
For me it means that you have a hightened sensative capacity to resonnate
deeply to the *outter*...But then I am drawing a conclusion which I see is
creating confusion

This exchange is certainly a learning for me...

Best regards,
Judith

><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>&nbsp;
><p>Judith Buerkel wrote:
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>Dear Nancy,
><br>nbsp; The
><br>answer to that varies a lot.&nbsp; As it happens this Serbian thing
>'snuck up on me' (which I
><br>would tend to suppose might intensify its effect.)
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>to *outter* experiences...I've even played with the
>idea of the
><br>erruptions in Serbia may be connected through the collective somehow
>to the
><br>condition growing in my neck which interestingly 3 days ago grew another
><br>one...</blockquote>
>N: Again I'm not sure I understand.&nbsp; Do the holes start with a boil
>of some sort?&nbsp; Either
><br>way it must be very hard for you.&nbsp; I'm sorry.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; It seems to me so much harder to draw psychological conclusion
>about illnesses that
><br>have rather long development states (such as my gall stones last
>fall.)&nbsp;
>And even more so
><br>to effect psychological remedies...&nbsp; I guess because the roots
>are ao deep and have been
><br>going on such a long time, often out of awareness.
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>I have been following the Serbian erruption mostly
>because I must
><br>stay close to home but also to see what's going on...
><br>>Dear Judith,
><br>>&nbsp;&nbsp; Fraid I may have left you with the impression that I
>didn't ever observe
><br>>the influence of the outter world on my inner psychic condition.
><br>>&nbsp;&nbsp; This is by no means the first time I've noticed this
>kind of
><br>>synchronicity.&nbsp; (I just couldn't see it last fall).</blockquote>
>N: I had to watch myself with particular care when my children were
>young.&nbsp;
>I was so
><br>prone to think first of psychological causes and be slow to take
>temperatures,
>etc.
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>There is alot of this not feeling *right* among my
>circle...people are
><br>physically sick, others having the experience of being upset..
><br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
>N: Interesting to have the same reactions popping up in different geograhy.
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>It is fascinating to me that this is occuring just
>as we leave the century
><br>of 2 WW's both of which have their seeds in that region..</blockquote>
>N: Do you draw any tentative conclusions from the reoccurence of locate?
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>.I have empathy
><br>for the Serbians, but my sense of their leader is the personification
>of
><br>dare I say evil...</blockquote>
>N: Perhaps 'possessed by evil impulses'?&nbsp; To me it's worthy of remark
>that the area is so
><br>close to that of our two greatest 'horror' legends: the vampire and
>the werewolf.
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>so now action is being taken to reformulate a pattern
><br>maybe?</blockquote>
>N: I wonder if this action will be any more effective than those preseding
>it...
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
><br>>&nbsp;&nbsp; Blessings,&nbsp; Nancy
><p>>
><br>>____________________________________________________________
><br>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
><br>>here:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a
>href="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html">http://home.ease.l
>soft.com/archives/psyber-l.html</a>
><p>____________________________________________________________
><br>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
><br>here:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a
>href="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html">http://home.ease.l
>soft.com/archives/psyber-l.html</a></blockquote>
></html>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:33:52 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Making connections
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Testing

Gee, Judith, I'm glad you can read 'doctrype'.

Judith Buerkel wrote:
>
> Nancy,
> This exchange is certainly a learning for me...
>
> Best regards,
> Judith
>
> ><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Mar 1999 16:35:21 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Making connections
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Judith Buerkel wrote:
>
> Nancy,
> Just a quick response before I go out into the sun...I was responding to
> your post which I am assuming was meant to clarify something of
> before...where you infered I might have drawn a conclusion...to this I
> respond that I did not draw that conclusion...
>
> I didn't draw that conclusion...if truth were known I have wondered
> >if you entrain
>
> >N;; I don't know what this word means in this context. (I often
> >have this problem with
> >the writing style you and Stephen use.;
>
> Entraining for me in this context was used as the process where things come
> into resonance together as with striking a tuning fork...so in the context
> of *inner/outter* what I meant was that your sensitivity resonnates to
> certain aspect in the collective which is manifesting in the *outter*...
>
N: Ok.  I guess this refers to the INFP, medial types, we referred to
last
year.
   As it happened I wasn't playing much attention to the news last week,
week-end or early this week.  So the the bombings this week took me by
surprise (consciously).  It seems to me that when I am consciously
'turned
out' on outer phenomina, it's inner (or physical) manifestation is
liable to
be greater than if I'm paying attention (preferable to both inner and
outer).
During the early part of this week (Sun.3/21) on I'd been feeling quite
upset
and angry (with less than usual 'real' reason)
   In this context it might interest you (and some others on the List)
to
read a little of so linking series of haikus I and another haikuist have
been
doing by eamail:

                Sun. 3/21 David:
cloudless March sky
no tornado, no snow
no rain, no point

                Mon. 3/22  Me:
petit point world
returns the focus within --
turmoil

                Tues 3/23  David:
straining at his leash
pitbull barks and growls
at a mirror

                Wed 3/24  me
distracted       the dog turns
ears perked      to the window
      a new puppy's cry

                The bombings began around 1?55 pm Wed our time (as best as I
                can reconstruct)  I didn't know until after writing the
last.

   I recall that what was on my mind during this sequence is how inner
turmoil
is usually releaved by weather storms, as if it were being displaced
outward.
   Anyway I enclude the above for you to make what you will of it (if
 anything)

   It seems to me that medical illnesses (such as my gall stones last
fall)
are far harder to connect with collective events.  In my case I had no
idea
how long it had taken them to develop, so I was unable to make any
connections
when you suggested the possibility last fall.

   I hope I have got the 'doctype' cleared up now so that this will come
through readably.

   Best to all,   Nancy
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:06:43 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Making connections
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1999032414022551@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Nancy,

> > I have a lack of full trust in the
> > psychodramatic methods

> I wonder if you might be able to expand on this statement here, Walter?

Since you wrote that some of my posts have expanded on that ... it is
not psychodrama I am just realising.  That is where the *personal*
difficulties for me hang out, but I mistrust all "schools" of
psychotherapy methods, organisations.  World.

Yet I am not a fan <!> of a little of everything, eclectic slops.  I
just hate noticing the personal and political flaws of teachers ... it
happens in all the "schools", it is not psychodrama per se.

This brings me right to the shadow of politics and groups that is
already here in our discussions, in another thread.  I feel sick about
the invasion of Kosovo.

I am conscious that I have never fought in a war (though born in one),
but I feel an impulse in me to fight one!  I have a sense of enemies
out there... sometimes they take the form of the professional
organisations I belong to, and I have a sense of not being able to
fraternise with the enemy... be almost easier if they were part of
some rival dukedom, and we were harnessing our troops for a f2f battle
on the fields.  Back to our books and writing...


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:35:54 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: brooking foolishness 1
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Stephen

I like your generous reflections on my 'state' with some
difficulty being exposed here! I find attention difficult,
especially the invitation to open up.  I accept your invitation
to play!

> Walter, you seek to hold your cards tightly in this report, but I can see
> that you're holding cards! You supply, in actuality, a very rich report of
> your "state" and, even lacking specifics, my intuitive sense is that you
> are, contrary to one aspect of how you feel, not holding back dryness
> but a great deal of wetness, the brook, as you say, of, who you really are.

Just after I wrote re the Nasir-I-Kushraw poem the responses to
Judith I have not held my cards so tightly, and it all ties in.
I know that even in the moment I express my *fear of dryness* I
am no longer dry.

Brooking Foolishness!  Here we go.

~~~

I have been listening to poetry today, and was moved to tears by
this passage from Wordsworth, Lines Composed A Few Miles Above
Tintern Abbey.  So much nostalgia, and it relates to the same
notion in the Homo Ludens poem of youth / age. It has a brook.
Wordy, Romantic, and somehow expresses the very worship I find
natural (!) and easy.  There are those hills, in my life, I did
fly like that, and am now moved by something "more deeply
interfused".  The lines:  "Of eye, and ear,--both what they half
create, / And what perceive;" put me in mind of the fusion of
inner outter that has been a theme here. This poem, which i find
a bit too much really, blended, triggered moved something in me.
An incurable Romantic?  Ok, BE one then!



Though changed, no doubt, from what I was when first
I came among these hills; when like a roe
I bounded o'er the mountains, by the sides
Of the deep rivers, and the lonely streams,
Wherever nature led: more like a man                   70
Flying from something that he dreads, than one
Who sought the thing he loved. For nature then
(The coarser pleasures of my boyish days,
And their glad animal movements all gone by)
To me was all in all.--I cannot paint
What then I was. The sounding cataract
Haunted me like a passion: the tall rock,
The mountain, and the deep and gloomy wood,
Their colours and their forms, were then to me
An appetite; a feeling and a love,                     80
That had no need of a remoter charm,
By thought supplied, nor any interest
Unborrowed from the eye.--That time is past,
And all its aching joys are now no more,
And all its dizzy raptures. Not for this
Faint I, nor mourn nor murmur, other gifts
Have followed; for such loss, I would believe,
Abundant recompence. For I have learned
To look on nature, not as in the hour
Of thoughtless youth; but hearing oftentimes           90
The still, sad music of humanity,
Nor harsh nor grating, though of ample power
To chasten and subdue. And I have felt
A presence that disturbs me with the joy
Of elevated thoughts; a sense sublime
Of something far more deeply interfused,
Whose dwelling is the light of setting suns,
And the round ocean and the living air,
And the blue sky, and in the mind of man;
A motion and a spirit, that impels                    100
All thinking things, all objects of all thought,
And rolls through all things. Therefore am I still
A lover of the meadows and the woods,
And mountains; and of all that we behold
From this green earth; of all the mighty world
Of eye, and ear,--both what they half create,
And what perceive; well pleased to recognise
In nature and the language of the sense,
The anchor of my purest thoughts, the nurse,
The guide, the guardian of my heart, and soul         110
Of all my moral being.

~~~

For complete version of the poem:

http://www.columbia.edu/acis/bartleby/wordsworth/ww138.html

~~~


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:55:18 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Jung
In-Reply-To:  <071A2DC9E07FD211A27500805F9F548925D39D@KG-EX01>
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Dan, all,

was:  Re: Welcome Dan Watkins

> I love Jung. In general, I am more interested in what he thought than in
> what his various students have thought (with von Franz as an exception). I
> have sometimes been accused of being slavish in my approach to Jung's
> thought, and it has been suggested at times that I should "get past" some
> of his ideas - but it is a lot to get past. I don't think that I will ever
> get as far as he did, much less past. Therefore, when I talk about Jung I
> usually just talk about Jung and try to understand his ideas. I hope that
> this will not be unwelcome to other list members.

It is not unwelcome to me, I like the idea of having someone who
has that approach here.  Interesting that just as you mention it
I have been expressing and feeling severe "doubt" about my own
fandom and love for my gurus. Do you yourself think you are
slavish?  Doubt your position?

I must say that Jung appeals to me as a sort of icon, a marker
which says *depth*.  Having Jung there is a comfort!  I have been
reading the online first chapter of...

C.G. Jung and the Psychology of Symbolic Forms
by Petteri Pietikinen

http://www.jungindex.net/books/chapters/

I found it interesting... he is one of those people who is a
scholar rather than a fan.  I think there is a certain arrogance
in that, thinks he can revise Jung.

One thing that i found interesting from that chapter was this
bit, which the author is skeptical of:

~quote~
The crux of the matter here is Jungs thesis that the analyst is
able to find "objective analogies" out of his "general
knowledge", by which Jung means the result of a large-scale
search for certain kind of mythological, historical, religious,
artistic, and philosophical motifs.
~end quote~

I am interested in this with respect to the focus of this list;
exploring the psyche in cyberspace.  I am not skeptical that
there are "objective analogies" ... they are the stuff of the
objective psyche, and the places we inhabit here.

I think it is hard for a historian to grasp, but not for a
clinician.  Speaking of the psyche is always in some form of...
analogy -- symbol -- metaphor (I may have these muddled here in
the Jungian use)  Story, image will do.  In this respect i think
that the soul is like our virtual world here... we can name it,
but only in this way, and one name is better than another, one
fits, others are wrong!  But how do we know?

In therapy there are those moments when we (both of us, or all of
us in the case of a group) applaud a name, which usually then has
meaning at many levels, in the patient, in the analyst, in the
relationship between the two.  The *pattern* is suddenly present,
everywhere, and the words fit.  I guess Cyberspace is such a
word, the word almost creates the phenomena.  Gibson called it a
consensual hallucination, but I think it has a touch more
objectivity.

Almost creates?

from Martin Heidegger, the German philosopher:

"Words and language are not wrappings in which things are packed
for the commerce of those who write and speak. It is in words and
language that things first come into being and are."

We have had many goes at naming the nature of this place ...
usually someone hits the nail on the head, and there is a sort of
nod from us all (I can see everyone nod anyway).  What is the
shape, space, mood, dynamic of Psyber-L today?

These things are on my mind, as I approached the local University
with the possibility of writing up something in this area, as a
thesis... not as easy as it sounds... is it philosophy,
psychology, computer science, applied linguistics?  I think of it
as the psychology of cyberspace, but no way would the psych
department have that on, or me them, they have not "re-visioned"
psychology the way Hillman does.

Just a rave,

Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:01:35 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Jung
In-Reply-To:  <37041513.171251720@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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Dear Walter,

At 12:55 PM 3/28/99 GMT, you wrote:
>Dan, all,
>
>was:  Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
>
>> I love Jung. In general, I am more interested in what he thought than in
>> what his various students have thought (with von Franz as an exception).=
 I
>> have sometimes been accused of being slavish in my approach to Jung's
>> thought, and it has been suggested at times that I should "get past" some
>> of his ideas - but it is a lot to get past. I don't think that I will=
 ever
>> get as far as he did, much less past. Therefore, when I talk about Jung I
>> usually just talk about Jung and try to understand his ideas. I hope that
>> this will not be unwelcome to other list members.
>
>It is not unwelcome to me, I like the idea of having someone who
>has that approach here.  Interesting that just as you mention it
>I have been expressing and feeling severe "doubt" about my own
>fandom and love for my gurus. Do you yourself think you are
>slavish?  Doubt your position?

I don't think so. When it has been suggested that I am slavish in my
devotion to Jung, it seems to have been in connection with my taking
seriously opinions or teachings advanced by Jung that are currently thought
outrageous. I am then advised to "go beyond" Jung, or that we should now be
able to see farther than Jung. I don't think that I can really see farther
than Jung in general until I am sure that I have seen all that he has seen.

More specifically, there are currently moves afoot to cast Jung as a
feminist, an egalitarian, a post-modernist, a liberal democrat (small "d"),
a Christian, or a sensitive New-Age guy - he was none of these things.
Sometimes people get annoyed with me for pointing this out, esp. when I
support my view with textual evidence, and it is then that I am blamed for
not "moving beyond" Jung, or somesuch.


>
>I must say that Jung appeals to me as a sort of icon, a marker
>which says *depth*.  Having Jung there is a comfort!  I have been
>reading the online first chapter of...
>
>C.G. Jung and the Psychology of Symbolic Forms
>by Petteri Pietik=E4inen
>
>http://www.jungindex.net/books/chapters/
>
>I found it interesting... he is one of those people who is a
>scholar rather than a fan.  I think there is a certain arrogance
>in that, thinks he can revise Jung.

I am always amused when the latest 28-year-old Wunderkind assistant
professor from Enormous State University thinks that he or she can revise
or improve upon Jung, Plato, Nietzsche, other truly great minds, when it is
questionable that they have even understood the work of the great mind that
they would revise. I agree with you, there is, to say the least, a certain
arrogance involved.

>
>One thing that i found interesting from that chapter was this
>bit, which the author is skeptical of:
>
>~quote~
>The crux of the matter here is Jung=92s thesis that the analyst is
>able to find "objective analogies" out of his "general
>knowledge", by which Jung means the result of a large-scale
>search for certain kind of mythological, historical, religious,
>artistic, and philosophical motifs.
>~end quote~
>
>I am interested in this with respect to the focus of this list;
>exploring the psyche in cyberspace.  I am not skeptical that
>there are "objective analogies" ... they are the stuff of the
>objective psyche, and the places we inhabit here.
>
>I think it is hard for a historian to grasp, but not for a
>clinician.  Speaking of the psyche is always in some form of...
>analogy -- symbol -- metaphor (I may have these muddled here in
>the Jungian use)  Story, image will do.  In this respect i think
>that the soul is like our virtual world here... we can name it,
>but only in this way, and one name is better than another, one
>fits, others are wrong!  But how do we know?
>
>In therapy there are those moments when we (both of us, or all of
>us in the case of a group) applaud a name, which usually then has
>meaning at many levels, in the patient, in the analyst, in the
>relationship between the two.  The *pattern* is suddenly present,
>everywhere, and the words fit.  I guess Cyberspace is such a
>word, the word almost creates the phenomena.  Gibson called it a
>consensual hallucination, but I think it has a touch more
>objectivity.
>
>Almost creates?
>
>from Martin Heidegger, the German philosopher:
>
>"Words and language are not wrappings in which things are packed
>for the commerce of those who write and speak. It is in words and
>language that things first come into being and are."

Where is this quote from, please... I would like to read the rest.

>
>We have had many goes at naming the nature of this place ...
>usually someone hits the nail on the head, and there is a sort of
>nod from us all (I can see everyone nod anyway).  What is the
>shape, space, mood, dynamic of Psyber-L today?
>
>These things are on my mind, as I approached the local University
>with the possibility of writing up something in this area, as a
>thesis... not as easy as it sounds... is it philosophy,
>psychology, computer science, applied linguistics?  I think of it
>as the psychology of cyberspace, but no way would the psych
>department have that on, or me them, they have not "re-visioned"
>psychology the way Hillman does.
>
>Just a rave,

Good rave,

Best regards,

Dan

>
>Walter
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:54:58 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19990324162536.00b03480@swlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>

  Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
  Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:25:36 -0800


> At 09:25 AM 3/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Welcome, Dan.  I'm a new student of Jung but I would think that a lot of his
> >work on the human shadow would cast a lot of wisdom on politics.  I think
> >that politics actually involves a lot of individuation, not just collective
> >integration.  If politics is about the interaction of individuals and groups
> >of individuals, then Jung's shadow work should enlighten our understanding
> >of politics.  I don't think we necessarily need to go right to any direct
> >statements by Jung on politics--understanding the basic mechanism of
> >unconscious projection out of the shadow yields a lot of insight.
> >
> >>
> Dear Phillip,
>
> Agreed. It would be fruitful, I think, to ask not only what disadvantages
> but what advantages the shadow brings to politics.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dan
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:07:44 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Individual - community
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19990324070737.00a4e4d0@swlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dan,

  Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
  Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:07:37 -0800

I am working my way through the posts slowly!  I just slipped one in by
mistake, with nothing added.


> here is always - to say the least - a
> "tension" between the individual and the community, if not a downright
> difference in their interests. The question is always how to "hold" the
> community - to sustain a community-holding temenos - while at the same time
> allowing/encouraging the individuation of the individual.

Stephen has responded to this with his analogy of the spokes and the wheel,
which I don't fully grasp yet.  I will, I will!

Lets take this to the here and asynchronous :-) now in the Psyber-L group,
community, list, or what it may be?  If there is such a tension can you (or
anyone, me?) feel it?

This here / now, noticing it here, will give us a sort of empirical look at
these matters, hard to name as they are.

I have a sense of there being strong and unique "individuating" people here,
various agendas, some non-posters who remain a mystery, most of us working
together.  There is a nudge coming through from the group unconscious, that
wants us to explore this very question of being our selves (not a profound
analysis -- it is the name of a prominent thread) and working with the
"whole" or the "other" or the "outter" or in my case the "professional
bodies"  I have been speaking about.  Hence we are uniting around a theme,
which has found its way right into the material you bring about being seen
as "slavish" as well as the politics.

Philip, you link this all with the shadow... I think of that as all that we
do not want to be, our shame, and reluctance to be seen, which is evident
for me here. Silence and non-posing individuals may also carry the shadow. I
am curious too if there are "backchannel" conversations, which sometimes
represent the "shadow" side of online groups?  Am I off beam there?

I'd be interested if my "reading" of our process has any commonality,
objectivity, or is it a private hallucination?  Can it be expanded,
simplified, and amplified, is there an archetype in our midst?


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:18:10 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Baumann, Philip" <Philip.Baumann@CONECTIV.COM>
Subject:      Re: Jung
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I suspect that the quote from Heidegger may be from his book "Poetry,
Language and Thought".  I'm not entirely sure, but it's possible.  I'll =
have
to dig out my copy of it & re-read it.  It's interesting that you =
mention
him anyway, because I've wanted to return to his writings since I =
recently
came across Henry Corbin's work on presence and the angelic function of
beings.  Hope that helps...

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Watkins [mailto:dwatkins@swlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 1999 3:02 PM
To: PSYBER-L@home.ease.lsoft.com
Subject: Re: [P] Jung


Dear Walter,

At 12:55 PM 3/28/99 GMT, you wrote:
>Dan, all,
>
>was:  Re: Welcome Dan Watkins
>
>> I love Jung. In general, I am more interested in what he thought =
than in
>> what his various students have thought (with von Franz as an =
exception).
I
>> have sometimes been accused of being slavish in my approach to =
Jung's
>> thought, and it has been suggested at times that I should "get past" =
some
>> of his ideas - but it is a lot to get past. I don't think that I =
will
ever
>> get as far as he did, much less past. Therefore, when I talk about =
Jung I
>> usually just talk about Jung and try to understand his ideas. I hope =
that
>> this will not be unwelcome to other list members.
>
>It is not unwelcome to me, I like the idea of having someone who
>has that approach here.  Interesting that just as you mention it
>I have been expressing and feeling severe "doubt" about my own
>fandom and love for my gurus. Do you yourself think you are
>slavish?  Doubt your position?

I don't think so. When it has been suggested that I am slavish in my
devotion to Jung, it seems to have been in connection with my taking
seriously opinions or teachings advanced by Jung that are currently =
thought
outrageous. I am then advised to "go beyond" Jung, or that we should =
now be
able to see farther than Jung. I don't think that I can really see =
farther
than Jung in general until I am sure that I have seen all that he has =
seen.

More specifically, there are currently moves afoot to cast Jung as a
feminist, an egalitarian, a post-modernist, a liberal democrat (small =
"d"),
a Christian, or a sensitive New-Age guy - he was none of these things.
Sometimes people get annoyed with me for pointing this out, esp. when I
support my view with textual evidence, and it is then that I am blamed =
for
not "moving beyond" Jung, or somesuch.


>
>I must say that Jung appeals to me as a sort of icon, a marker
>which says *depth*.  Having Jung there is a comfort!  I have been
>reading the online first chapter of...
>
>C.G. Jung and the Psychology of Symbolic Forms
>by Petteri Pietik=E4inen
>
>http://www.jungindex.net/books/chapters/
>
>I found it interesting... he is one of those people who is a
>scholar rather than a fan.  I think there is a certain arrogance
>in that, thinks he can revise Jung.

I am always amused when the latest 28-year-old Wunderkind assistant
professor from Enormous State University thinks that he or she can =
revise
or improve upon Jung, Plato, Nietzsche, other truly great minds, when =
it is
questionable that they have even understood the work of the great mind =
that
they would revise. I agree with you, there is, to say the least, a =
certain
arrogance involved.

>
>One thing that i found interesting from that chapter was this
>bit, which the author is skeptical of:
>
>~quote~
>The crux of the matter here is Jung's thesis that the analyst is
>able to find "objective analogies" out of his "general
>knowledge", by which Jung means the result of a large-scale
>search for certain kind of mythological, historical, religious,
>artistic, and philosophical motifs.
>~end quote~
>
>I am interested in this with respect to the focus of this list;
>exploring the psyche in cyberspace.  I am not skeptical that
>there are "objective analogies" ... they are the stuff of the
>objective psyche, and the places we inhabit here.
>
>I think it is hard for a historian to grasp, but not for a
>clinician.  Speaking of the psyche is always in some form of...
>analogy -- symbol -- metaphor (I may have these muddled here in
>the Jungian use)  Story, image will do.  In this respect i think
>that the soul is like our virtual world here... we can name it,
>but only in this way, and one name is better than another, one
>fits, others are wrong!  But how do we know?
>
>In therapy there are those moments when we (both of us, or all of
>us in the case of a group) applaud a name, which usually then has
>meaning at many levels, in the patient, in the analyst, in the
>relationship between the two.  The *pattern* is suddenly present,
>everywhere, and the words fit.  I guess Cyberspace is such a
>word, the word almost creates the phenomena.  Gibson called it a
>consensual hallucination, but I think it has a touch more
>objectivity.
>
>Almost creates?
>
>from Martin Heidegger, the German philosopher:
>
>"Words and language are not wrappings in which things are packed
>for the commerce of those who write and speak. It is in words and
>language that things first come into being and are."

Where is this quote from, please... I would like to read the rest.

>
>We have had many goes at naming the nature of this place ...
>usually someone hits the nail on the head, and there is a sort of
>nod from us all (I can see everyone nod anyway).  What is the
>shape, space, mood, dynamic of Psyber-L today?
>
>These things are on my mind, as I approached the local University
>with the possibility of writing up something in this area, as a
>thesis... not as easy as it sounds... is it philosophy,
>psychology, computer science, applied linguistics?  I think of it
>as the psychology of cyberspace, but no way would the psych
>department have that on, or me them, they have not "re-visioned"
>psychology the way Hillman does.
>
>Just a rave,

Good rave,

Best regards,

Dan

>
>Walter
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:41:28 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Watkins <dwatkins@SWLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Jung
In-Reply-To:  <071A2DC9E07FD211A27500805F9F548925D3B5@KG-EX01>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:18 AM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I suspect that the quote from Heidegger may be from his book "Poetry,
>Language and Thought".  I'm not entirely sure, but it's possible.  I'll have
>to dig out my copy of it & re-read it.  It's interesting that you mention
>him anyway, because I've wanted to return to his writings since I recently
>came across Henry Corbin's work on presence and the angelic function of
>beings.  Hope that helps...

I'll have a look for it, thanks.

Best wishes,

Dan

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:53:06 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Individual - community (shadow)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To all

N: (If I understand you, Walter)This has long been a subject of moderate
interest to me.  People (and groups) seem to have various ways of
dealing
with it.  I'd like to give some examples of one way.  (I'm thinking
mostly
individuals, but Nazis vs Jews would be a collective example)
        Some people seem to have a stronger need for and 'adversary' than
 others.
     1) Freud seems a good example of this.  He always seemed to need an
'enemy'.
     2) My Finnish mother-in-law was another I think.  As long as I knew
her
 she was the 'victim' of her husband.  (From what my ex- has said this
went
back as far as he could remember.  I don't think she was a particularly
 passive 'victim'.  She and I seemed to get along fine (with me mostly
mirroring empathy) until he died.  Then her letter became very critical,
not
only to me, but to my children also (grown by then)  The wrong Christmas
 present (been thanked for sending a wooden block train engine to a 12
yr.
 old), the wrong grades, life styles, you name it.  It felt as if she
needed
some outlet for an inner ire.

        I notice something similar in quite a different way in myself.
 My newest way of viewing this is that I get an 'off feeling' (could be
anything: hurt feelings, something doesn't work, things 'go wrong' for
over
two weeks) and I begin to withdraw.  I think it is the build-up I sense
within and then project the reaction I 'expect' from others.  Then, if
nothing
else, others react to my 'withdrawal'.

        I don't know what you are picking up in this group.  It just think
we are in a difficult transition period: still recovering from a 'show
of
authority' in unsubbing, going private, more new people at one time than
usual, to name just a few.  Our 'temenos' has developed some sharp inner
spots, or so it may seem to us (not to mention our individual 'real' and
virtual lives)  Our 'community' has become a little 'estranged' perhaps?

        I am in a group where there is a good bit of back channeling.  I
think it is because there are a couple of people in the group who are
quite
critical and have some power in the interest area that is the groups
reason
for being.



Walter Logeman wrote:

> Lets take this to the here and asynchronous :-) now in the Psyber-L group,
> community, list, or what it may be?  If there is such a tension can you (or
> anyone, me?) feel it?
>
> This here / now, noticing it here, will give us a sort of empirical look at
> these matters, hard to name as they are.
>
> I have a sense of there being strong and unique "individuating" people here,
> various agendas, some non-posters who remain a mystery, most of us working
> together.  There is a nudge coming through from the group unconscious, that
> wants us to explore this very question of being our selves (not a profound
> analysis -- it is the name of a prominent thread) and working with the
> "whole" or the "other" or the "outter" or in my case the "professional
> bodies"  I have been speaking about.  Hence we are uniting around a theme,
> which has found its way right into the material you bring about being seen
> as "slavish" as well as the politics.
>
 I
> am curious too if there are "backchannel" conversations, which sometimes
> represent the "shadow" side of online groups?  Am I off beam there?

N: In my experience they less 'represent' the shadow than they simply
expose
it to sunlight...that which can't be openly exposed in the group.
>
> I'd be interested if my "reading" of our process has any commonality,
> objectivity, or is it a private hallucination?  Can it be expanded,
> simplified, and amplified, is there an archetype in our midst?
>
> Walter
>

Nancy (who hopes/believes that her 'language problem' is now
cured...cause
she 'ain't gonna' try to reconstruct much of this anytime soon.)
________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:48:03 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Back-channeling
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Psyber-group,
I too have wondered if there is back-channleing in our list. I have felt
there is..or sensed it..or been paranoid about it... I don't know which
is correct. Speaking for myself, I don't communictae with anyone on this
list except on the list. Somwhow it doesn't feel right to do so. But
that's just my own feeling of propriety. If people here are friends in
real life (like Stephen and Judith and Joanne and some other guy here
whose name I can't remember but who knew Julienne with her) then it's
natural that they would communicate off list and so called "back
channel". What difference does it make, Walter?

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:14:06 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         renata <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Back-channeling
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

> Psyber-group,

> I too have wondered if there is back-channeling in our list. I

> have felt

> there is..or sensed it..or been paranoid about it... I don't

> know which

> is correct.



Somehow I feel addressed by this ... I'm Renata - I joined the
list some time ago but haven't posted much. Quickly after I
joined, a member started writing me back-channel, showing interest
in what I had written to introduce myself, and a conversation
started.

To make a long story short: he offered to be a "therapeutic
friend", which I really needed at that time, and I accepted.

Then things went fast - I remembered things I had blocked for
decades, I wrote them down, felt helpless and vulnerable - and the
other person was very understanding at first, but suddenly reacted
by calling me a liar.

I realize I projected all this on the list, blaming you all for
what had happened.

So maybe that's what you sensed, felt ...

---------------

1) I checked and he's no longer a member anymore, so you shouldn't
feel unsafe.

2) I'm sorry for blaming the list for all this

3) I'm glad I told this, I guess I was just waiting for the
occasion

4) I agree with you, Cheryl, "big" issues should be discussed on
the list - the more thoughts given to a subject, the less
explosive it becomes.



Thanks for listening,

renata
===
Seen much and understood some
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:26:33 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Back-channeling
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  Goodness!  What a stinking experience for you, Remata.
     Nancy (Sorry it started here and ended that way.)

renata wrote:
.
>
> Then things went fast - I remembered things I had blocked for
> decades, I wrote them down, felt helpless and vulnerable - and the
> other person was very understanding at first, but suddenly reacted
> by calling me a liar.
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:05:02 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Back-channeling
In-Reply-To:  <19990330211407.2693.rocketmail@web208.mail.yahoo.com>
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On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:14:06 -0800, you, renata <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM>, wrote:

>--- Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:
>
>> Psyber-group,
>> I too have wondered if there is back-channeling in our list. I
>> have felt
>> there is..or sensed it..or been paranoid about it... I don't
>> know which
>> is correct.
>
>Somehow I feel addressed by this ... I'm Renata - I joined the
>list some time ago but haven't posted much. Quickly after I
>joined, a member started writing me back-channel, showing interest
>in what I had written to introduce myself, and a conversation
>started.
>
>To make a long story short: he offered to be a "therapeutic
>friend", which I really needed at that time, and I accepted.
>
>Then things went fast - I remembered things I had blocked for
>decades, I wrote them down, felt helpless and vulnerable - and the
>other person was very understanding at first, but suddenly reacted
>by calling me a liar.

How horrible for you.

>I realize I projected all this on the list, blaming you all for
>what had happened.
>
>So maybe that's what you sensed, felt ...
>
>---------------
>
>1) I checked and he's no longer a member anymore, so you shouldn't
>feel unsafe.

I guess you wouldn't want to say who it was.

>2) I'm sorry for blaming the list for all this

You did stay subscribed, that's something, I guess.  Hope for a positive
experience from the list, because if you thought nothing good could come from it
you would have left.

>3) I'm glad I told this, I guess I was just waiting for the
>occasion

I'm glad you told it too.

>4) I agree with you, Cheryl, "big" issues should be discussed on
>the list - the more thoughts given to a subject, the less
>explosive it becomes.

Sort of like what the Scientologists do in getting you to "clear" -- you discuss
heavily psycholigically "charged" things until they no longer have a hold on
you.  Unfortunately then the Scientologists know all your little secrets!

I'm glad you emerged again, Renata.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:39:32 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Back-chanelling
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Renata,

How awful for you. I'm glad you spoke up and let the group know about
that experience that took place within the group yet not within it. I was
wondering hy you styaed subscribed if you wewre blaming the list for what
happened. I'm glad you didn't leave though.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
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