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Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:39:09 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      1999

Well...HAPPY NEW YEAR Psyberians!

Nancy
(Wanting to see January, two faced or no, appear on our list.)

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:09:54 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Crossing the Deadly Desert
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,

I'll spend some time thinking on your post today and see what emerges...I
was reminded by a Buddahist teacher today in a very synchronistic moment of
connection that what *I* need to focus on is clinging...in this belief
system all suffering is caused by clinging...so I have work of my own to do
today it seems

Happy 1991
Judith
Oh, I'm in Cleveland, OH

>Dear Walter, Judith, All,
>   I just got word that my 'seminarian' niece and her family are about to
>be posted to New Zealand.  Seemed like a heck of a coincidence (must wait
>until later to see if it is synchronicity.)  Her husband is with the Dept of
>Agriculture and they alternate 4 yrs in the U.S. and 4 abroad.  The last
>was Costa Rica.
>
>Re: Depression
>Judith, I have reread this posting of yours almost daily.  For you it seems
>like an almost miraculous series of revelations.  For me it keeps evoking
>mentions of 'different communication styles' and my post last Spring
>in which I tried to shower you with healing pink rose petals.
>   In Cincinnati you have access to such a wonderful range of varying healing
>paths.  Quite different from the small town where I live.  Clearly you are
>making the most of them.
>   In an effort to get more in touch with what you are trying give me I
>am going to select out bits to address (and may do so again in the future,
>if you don't object.)
>
>On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:40:54 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>
>>Nancy,
>[snip]
>>I've been focused on an issue which emerged for me a few weeks back...I
>called it self-cruelty...one of the processes I use is to work
>with a woman who is a medical intuitive...
>
>N: I'm guessing you found her through 'networking'.  Yes?
>
>>I wanted to explore what the
>>spiritual source of the pain in my right shoulder and particularly the
>>knots which were in the muscles of my right bicep and the growths which are
>>occuring on the tendons in my right hand particularly...I was pursuing this
>>while working with a physical therapist, having Rikie treatments, and deep
>>muscular massage work...nothing was budging it and the pain has persisted.
>
>N: The Rikie method has been suggested to me, though I know of no practicianer
>here.  Did you not find it helpful...or only not in the particular instance
>you mention?
>
>>I was looking to explore these questions:
>>1)what was the source of my acts of self cruelty
>>2)could this be tied in some way to my earlies recollection as a child of
>>feeling there was something very wrong with me, manifesting later through
>>my teens as an inferiority complex (which interestingly abated once I
>>oriented to Buddahism)
>>3)since the pain occurs on my right side and this is the *masculine* I
>>wanted to see what this might reveal
>
>N: I, too, find that interesting and have tried it several times.  Again
>that 'barrier' of non-connection arises.
>
>>4)and finally how much of my experience was mine personally and how much
>>was this the (and I'll use a term we've spoken of here) collective psyche
>>(meaning what part was my empathicness playing)
>>
>>Prior to the session I began taking specific action based in my new
>>awareness of the concept *self cruelty*...I used this as a template around
>>the choices I am making in the moment, those small actions which appear
>>insignificant but when viewed illuminate a pattern...
>
>[snip]
>
>N: And again.  I don't even know what to ask...  Perhaps you can help with
>a connection.  What is coming to my mind is a TV show I saw last night which
>evoked a reaction I've been noticing about most of what comes to me these
>days.  It was about how the industry of cultured pearls developed in Japan.
>The breakthrough came when they tried 'sacrificing' (their word)one oyster
>so as to embed a part of it along with a pearl seedling in many.  This
>caused a uniformly round pearlizing substance to grow around the implant.
>   Nature seems very cruel to me.  The total divorce of feeling which
>appears to me to exist between predator and prey, pearl farmer and oyster...
>not to mention among humans themselves...And all most of us can see are such
>icy tips as the holocaust...
>
>>We began by talking about my revulsion...that somehow *I* was connected to
>>unspeakable acts...and my fascination since childhood of the Holicaust...as
>>I was relating my life long feelings she said that the blocked energy in my
>>right bicep was beginning to unwind (since the session there is
>>considerable change in the knots in my biceps)...indicating that I was on
>>the right track...as we worked energetically we spoke of my empathicness...
>>
>>She related this story which connected many *dots* for me...
>>
>>She went to the Dali Lama's conference in Washington DC and the first night
>>the rimpoche who wrote the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying was
>>teaching...he said that when he first came to the US 20 years ago he was
>>completely baffled by Americans...he couldn't understand what was going on
>>with them...then later he came to the information...he said Americans have
>>a deep sense of *self-loathing* and that this is continuously playing
>>out...he said he couldn't relate to this because there is nothing in the
>>Tibetan world like this...primarily because of how they are oriented in
>>their life.
>
>N: I particularly wish I understood the above.
>>
>>This story brought me a huge insight...I was looking at the issue of
>>*self-cruelty* but was not seeing the underlying cause which is in fact
>>*self-loathing*...my response to this had been to short circuit positive
>>paths in my life except as it related to me serving...interestingly I had
>>made a conscious decision during my health crisis contemplation to hold my
>>self interest and my service to the universe in equality and in reciprocity
>>and had been pursuing that with interesting difficulty in holding
>>self-interest...a certain unidentifable fear kept rising whenever I took
>>action for self...the fear became identified in an amazing way to me...as I
>>examined past patterns of self interest I found that there was a sort of
>>*bar* that I could go up to with my self interest but if I went *over* the
>>bar there was always a self cruel act, sort of a punishment...so I tested
>>this pattern and sure enuf when I embraced the theatre opportunity in my
>>totality, the fear appeared and for 2 weeks I was in a battle with it...the
>>fear driving me to exacerbate my creating and thus sabatage the outcome,
>>the performance...I had intentionally loaded this experience with all that
>>I am, amping the stakes...and me holding the fear and fighting with my
>>clear intention to serve my self...finding the *self cruelty* illuminated
>>the fear and once it was in my consciousness the fear once named
>>abated...and I manifested all that I had dreamed could be possible with the
>>opportunity
>
>N: This is the just concluded theater experience to which you refer?
>>
>>Now all this said, I now am holding the data about *self loathing* and my
>>empathicness and the existence of this in our culture's deep psyche and
>>seeing what I learn...
>
>(snip)
>>
>>So, Nancy, I offer my experience and learnings from a perspective of your
>>depression and your INFPness and ask the question for you (which doesn't
>>include an expectation or asking you to share your considerations BTW): how
>>much is you and how much is you *channelingtransmuting* for the collective
>>psyche?
>
>N: I follow you with my mind.  It seems that I may be experiencing this
>phenomina from an opposite angle, i.e. the problem for me is that 'the
>world' is not empathetic, not does it seem to want to be, nor is it likely
>to change because I might wish it.  I feel myself to be one of those tiny
>bits of oyster ripped from another to be inserted in a second, which may or
>may not survive in the increasingly polluted waters, to grow a pearl.  The
>pearl then will be culled as to quality and used to enhance the vanity
>of some entity without a thought for the pain of its origin.
>>
>>Judith in thinkingness and blessings for illumination.
>
>N: Again, Judith, I thank you for your well-wishes.
>Oh, and a PS, three of my published haiku are now on view with a rather
>obscure little autobiographical not at Elizabeth St. Jacques' site Poetry
>in the Light.
>  Sorry, I don't know how to cite properly so you can just click on it.  I
>had to hunt it up myself with the help of Arfie (or to paraphrase your
>Tibetian, Dogpile.)
>
>Best to all,
>
>Nancy
>
>Another PS: Simon,didn't you find the author citations you gave on
>Narcissism gave an awfully negative view compared to Nathan?  Just wondering.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:07:48 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Virginia Branning, Welcome
In-Reply-To:  <369000E6.106B@pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Virginia,

Welcome to Psyber-L.  Thank you for the introduction which I have added
below.  I hope you find our dialogue to your taste.  I have a sense that
you will enjoy our discussions, which can range from the very personal to
the theoretical and that is all within the scope of our purposes!

Looking forward to your participation.

I am just back from a week in the hills and feeling fit and relaxed and
about to catch up on my email.

If you wish to see what people have been up to here in the last while have
a look here:

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

All the best,


Walter

> Dear Walter Logeman,
>
> Thank you for your prompt automated message which I received after I
> send the subscribe message to psyber-l.
>
> Psyber-L was suggested to me as an intriguing alternative to therapy; an
> intriguing alternative to education in psyhology; and an intriguing
> search which might answer some questions with regard to my own psyche. I
> have read the descript and key people pages and I think I shall benefit
> and learn from this very comprehensive body of people and information.
>
> I am fifty-five and will be a student forever. At the moment I work as a
> lab manager in the telecommunications industry. I hope to retire in
> June. I hope to explore web programing and maybe work in a book store.
>
> I am sure the main thing I shall be doing with the list is learning,
> seeking and probably having more questions than answers.
>
> Thank You, Virginia Branning

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 03:30:55 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Virginia Branning <behra@PACBELL.NET>
Subject:      Re: Virginia Branning, Welcome
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:
>
> Virginia,
>
> Welcome to Psyber-L.  Thank you for the introduction which I have added
> below.  I hope you find our dialogue to your taste.  I have a sense that
> you will enjoy our discussions, which can range from the very personal to
> the theoretical and that is all within the scope of our purposes!
>
> Looking forward to your participation.
>
> I am just back from a week in the hills and feeling fit and relaxed and
> about to catch up on my email.
>
> If you wish to see what people have been up to here in the last while have
> a look here:
>
> http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
> All the best,
>
> Walter
>
> > Dear Walter Logeman,
> >
> > Thank you for your prompt automated message which I received after I
> > send the subscribe message to psyber-l.
> >
> > Psyber-L was suggested to me as an intriguing alternative to therapy; an
> > intriguing alternative to education in psyhology; and an intriguing
> > search which might answer some questions with regard to my own psyche. I
> > have read the descript and key people pages and I think I shall benefit
> > and learn from this very comprehensive body of people and information.
> >
> > I am fifty-five and will be a student forever. At the moment I work as a
> > lab manager in the telecommunications industry. I hope to retire in
> > June. I hope to explore web programing and maybe work in a book store.
> >
> > I am sure the main thing I shall be doing with the list is learning,
> > seeking and probably having more questions than answers.
> >
> > Thank You, Virginia Branning
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
Thank You - I am on my way and receiving.

Virginia Branning

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:26:20 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Norms
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Happy New Year list people,

Over the last couple of weeks as I've been away from the list but
nevertheless mused about during all the endless painting of walls I've
noticed a couple a feww things about how the list operates that I'd like
to mention - you might call then norms - and again, you might not. Still,
I'd like to raise the topics/questions. Here are some things I've noticed
that we do not do. This is just a noticing and not a recommendation that
changes be made -

We don't ask people where they live, or who their friends are. We don't
say anything when only 3-5 people contribute out of a list of 30+
"participants". We don't ask (in the case of new people) who recommended
that they join the list. We don't ask if people on the list know each
other in real life. Actually, except for names, we don't know much at all
about who's on the list. I could go on but won't.

I mention these things because the list has gotten boring to me. Nothing
much happens here except Judith and Nancy (sorry - guys, nothing
personal - it's just what's happening) having what amounts to an almost
private conversation. Not by design but because almost no one else
participates. Maybe it's just where I'm at - I'm more interested in
taking care of my house than being on this list. But I don't find the
conversation all that interesting anymore. I also notice that almost
no one says anything that might be remotely misinterpreted - I know that
I tiptoe around saying things I realy want to say (like this) out of fear
that someone will take umbrage and that the medium itself will not be a
very good support to setting the intentions and meanings right.

Just noticing my responses to being here -  Simon did suggest some
reading material which I haven't has time to delve into - that might be a
useful change - at least from where I'm sitting. I can on;y be
responsible for my own contributions. We'll see.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:37:33 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Crossing the Deadly Desert
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy and all,
I'm feeling a bit ill equipped to bring any illuminationtoday on rereading
your post Nancy...yet illumination is really in the eyes of the
receiver...Ihave a couple of thotsquestions...
>
>>Dear Walter, Judith, All,
>>   I just got word that my 'seminarian' niece and her family are about to
>>be posted to New Zealand.  Seemed like a heck of a coincidence (must wait
>>until later to see if it is synchronicity.)  Her husband is with the Dept of
>>Agriculture and they alternate 4 yrs in the U.S. and 4 abroad.  The last
>>was Costa Rica.
>>
>>Re: Depression
>>Judith, I have reread this posting of yours almost daily.  For you it seems
>>like an almost miraculous series of revelations.  For me it keeps evoking
>>mentions of 'different communication styles' and my post last Spring
>>in which I tried to shower you with healing pink rose petals.
Nancy, I'm assuming this was the greeting card I could never get to through
my limited software and hardware...
>>   In Cincinnati you have access to such a wonderful range of varying healing
>>paths.  Quite different from the small town where I live.  Clearly you are
>>making the most of them.
I think the important part is that this is where I am comfortable...it fits
my beingness and my process...and I have gained immeasurably from it in
terms of healing and learning...not  a process for everyone it seems to me

>>   In an effort to get more in touch with what you are trying give me I
>>am going to select out bits to address (and may do so again in the future,
>>if you don't object.)
>>
>>On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:40:54 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>>
>>>Nancy,
>>[snip]
>>>I've been focused on an issue which emerged for me a few weeks back...I
>>called it self-cruelty...one of the processes I use is to work
>>with a woman who is a medical intuitive...
>>
>>N: I'm guessing you found her through 'networking'.  Yes?
Yes, in the healing community here...a good friend introduced me
>>
>>>I wanted to explore what the
>>>spiritual source of the pain in my right shoulder and particularly the
>>>knots which were in the muscles of my right bicep and the growths which are
>>>occuring on the tendons in my right hand particularly...I was pursuing this
>>>while working with a physical therapist, having Rikie treatments, and deep
>>>muscular massage work...nothing was budging it and the pain has persisted.
>>
>>N: The Rikie method has been suggested to me, though I know of no practicianer
>>here.  Did you not find it helpful...or only not in the particular instance
>>you mention?
From my experience it all works together...and for me it is really about
data gathering...what do I learn from engaging the process...the shoulder
pain still persists and one of the possibilities is that this keeps me
focused on my body and my healing...the medical intuitive gave me an energy
practice to do daily and of course I'm not very good at all at
routine...which could be the real lesson :-)

>>
>>>I was looking to explore these questions:
>>>1)what was the source of my acts of self cruelty
>>>2)could this be tied in some way to my earlies recollection as a child of
>>>feeling there was something very wrong with me, manifesting later through
>>>my teens as an inferiority complex (which interestingly abated once I
>>>oriented to Buddahism)
>>>3)since the pain occurs on my right side and this is the *masculine* I
>>>wanted to see what this might reveal
>>
>>N: I, too, find that interesting and have tried it several times.  Again
>>that 'barrier' of non-connection arises.
I'm not sure what you mean here...what is the non-connection connected to? ;-)

>>
>>>4)and finally how much of my experience was mine personally and how much
>>>was this the (and I'll use a term we've spoken of here) collective psyche
>>>(meaning what part was my empathicness playing)
>>>
>>>Prior to the session I began taking specific action based in my new
>>>awareness of the concept *self cruelty*...I used this as a template around
>>>the choices I am making in the moment, those small actions which appear
>>>insignificant but when viewed illuminate a pattern...
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>N: And again.  I don't even know what to ask...  Perhaps you can help with
>>a connection.  What is coming to my mind is a TV show I saw last night which
>>evoked a reaction I've been noticing about most of what comes to me these
>>days.  It was about how the industry of cultured pearls developed in Japan.
>>The breakthrough came when they tried 'sacrificing' (their word)one oyster
>>so as to embed a part of it along with a pearl seedling in many.  This
>>caused a uniformly round pearlizing substance to grow around the implant.
>>   Nature seems very cruel to me.  The total divorce of feeling which
>>appears to me to exist between predator and prey, pearl farmer and oyster...
>>not to mention among humans themselves...And all most of us can see are such
>>icy tips as the holocaust...

What comes to mind here is something that has arisen here a number of times
in the past...the outrage (if I may use that word) at the cruelity humans
inflict on each other...and here you mention nature...I don't hold nature
as cruel...it is what it is somehow to me...I wonder at how one would ever
resolve feeling nature as cruel...or at least come to a place of
acceptance...what I focus on is the beauty of nature and the cooperative
event it brings...I was struck driving to work the other day in a great
windstorm and seeing geese in formation soaring in concert rising and
falling...it was breathtaking...for me it is a choice where to put my
focus...
>>
>>>We began by talking about my revulsion...that somehow *I* was connected to
>>>unspeakable acts...and my fascination since childhood of the Holicaust...as
>>>I was relating my life long feelings she said that the blocked energy in my
>>>right bicep was beginning to unwind (since the session there is
>>>considerable change in the knots in my biceps)...indicating that I was on
>>>the right track...as we worked energetically we spoke of my empathicness...
>>>
>>>She related this story which connected many *dots* for me...
>>>
>>>She went to the Dali Lama's conference in Washington DC and the first night
>>>the rimpoche who wrote the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying was
>>>teaching...he said that when he first came to the US 20 years ago he was
>>>completely baffled by Americans...he couldn't understand what was going on
>>>with them...then later he came to the information...he said Americans have
>>>a deep sense of *self-loathing* and that this is continuously playing
>>>out...he said he couldn't relate to this because there is nothing in the
>>>Tibetan world like this...primarily because of how they are oriented in
>>>their life.
>>
>>N: I particularly wish I understood the above.
I think there are others more equipped to speak to the collective deep
psyche here...how I received it was that our nation has committed great
acts of cruelty and that this resides in our collective psyche...and when I
say I wasn't a slave holder so I'm not responsibly, on the one hand this is
true, yet I ask myself what is my cooperation in continuing this, those
subtle acts of participation...don't know...I remember being at a
conference with a woman who was a former missionary and her moment of
personal confession to the group for her participation in what she had come
to realize for herself was a grave act against the people...

>>>
>>>This story brought me a huge insight...I was looking at the issue of
>>>*self-cruelty* but was not seeing the underlying cause which is in fact
>>>*self-loathing*...my response to this had been to short circuit positive
>>>paths in my life except as it related to me serving...interestingly I had
>>>made a conscious decision during my health crisis contemplation to hold my
>>>self interest and my service to the universe in equality and in reciprocity
>>>and had been pursuing that with interesting difficulty in holding
>>>self-interest...a certain unidentifable fear kept rising whenever I took
>>>action for self...the fear became identified in an amazing way to me...as I
>>>examined past patterns of self interest I found that there was a sort of
>>>*bar* that I could go up to with my self interest but if I went *over* the
>>>bar there was always a self cruel act, sort of a punishment...so I tested
>>>this pattern and sure enuf when I embraced the theatre opportunity in my
>>>totality, the fear appeared and for 2 weeks I was in a battle with it...the
>>>fear driving me to exacerbate my creating and thus sabatage the outcome,
>>>the performance...I had intentionally loaded this experience with all that
>>>I am, amping the stakes...and me holding the fear and fighting with my
>>>clear intention to serve my self...finding the *self cruelty* illuminated
>>>the fear and once it was in my consciousness the fear once named
>>>abated...and I manifested all that I had dreamed could be possible with the
>>>opportunity
>>
>>N: This is the just concluded theater experience to which you refer?
Yes, I see it as a learning experience...the opportunity to explore the
issue within a highly amped environment...
>>>
>>>Now all this said, I now am holding the data about *self loathing* and my
>>>empathicness and the existence of this in our culture's deep psyche and
>>>seeing what I learn...
>>
>>(snip)
>>>
>>>So, Nancy, I offer my experience and learnings from a perspective of your
>>>depression and your INFPness and ask the question for you (which doesn't
>>>include an expectation or asking you to share your considerations BTW): how
>>>much is you and how much is you *channelingtransmuting* for the collective
>>>psyche?
>>
>>N: I follow you with my mind.  It seems that I may be experiencing this
>>phenomina from an opposite angle, i.e. the problem for me is that 'the
>>world' is not empathetic, not does it seem to want to be, nor is it likely
>>to change because I might wish it.  I feel myself to be one of those tiny
>>bits of oyster ripped from another to be inserted in a second, which may or
>>may not survive in the increasingly polluted waters, to grow a pearl.  The
>>pearl then will be culled as to quality and used to enhance the vanity
>>of some entity without a thought for the pain of its origin.
Yes, I see how you are experiencing it...I wonder if you ever see the
beauty and coopperation...I did an experiment a few years ago where I
stopped reading any newspapers, mags, watching TV and noticed how I began
to experience my moments directly in front of me...and focused on doing
acts of kindness...the resulting life I began to create and continue to
create has been interesting...

You create through your writing and could it be the means through which you
transmute the pain in the psyche? just a thot

Onwaard into 1999
Judith

>>>
>>>Judith in thinkingness and blessings for illumination.
>>
>>N: Again, Judith, I thank you for your well-wishes.
>>Oh, and a PS, three of my published haiku are now on view with a rather
>>obscure little autobiographical not at Elizabeth St. Jacques' site Poetry
>>in the Light.

I'll attempt to find this...congratulation!
>>  Sorry, I don't know how to cite properly so you can just click on it.  I
>>had to hunt it up myself with the help of Arfie (or to paraphrase your
>>Tibetian, Dogpile.)
>>
>>Best to all,
>>
>>Nancy
>>
>>Another PS: Simon,didn't you find the author citations you gave on
>>Narcissism gave an awfully negative view compared to Nathan?  Just wondering.
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:36:52 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Crossing the Deadly Desert

(Cheryl, suggest you not read this as I suspect you may find it 'boring';-)

On Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:37:33 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:

>Nancy and all,
>I'm feeling a bit ill equipped to bring any illuminationtoday on rereading
>your post Nancy...yet illumination is really in the eyes of the
>receiver...
>Ihave a couple of thotsquestions...
>>
>>>Dear Walter, Judith, All,
>>>   I just got word that my 'seminarian' niece and her family are about to
>>>be posted to New Zealand.  Seemed like a heck of a coincidence (must wait
>>>until later to see if it is synchronicity.)  Her husband is with the Dept of
>>>Agriculture and they alternate 4 yrs in the U.S. and 4 abroad.  The last
>>>was Costa Rica.
>>>
>>>Re: Depression
>>>Judith, I have reread this posting of yours almost daily.  For you it seems
>>>like an almost miraculous series of revelations.  For me it keeps evoking
>>>mentions of 'different communication styles' and my post last Spring
>>>in which I tried to shower you with healing pink rose petals.
>Nancy, I'm assuming this was the greeting card I could never get to through
>my limited software and hardware...

N: Well, no, not really.  It referred to a post of mine to which your reply
indicated you did not connect with the healing properties of a shower of
pink rose petals.

>>>   In Cincinnati

N: Er...ah...Cleveland (I understand this er-ror, but doubt if anyone else
cares.)

>>>you have access to such a wonderful range of varying healing
>>>paths.  Quite different from the small town where I live.  Clearly you are
>>>making the most of them.
>I think the important part is that this is where I am comfortable...it fits
>my beingness and my process...and I have gained immeasurably from it in
>terms of healing and learning...not  a process for everyone it seems to me
>
>>>   In an effort to get more in touch with what you are trying give me I
>>>am going to select out bits to address (and may do so again in the future,
>>>if you don't object.)
>>>
>>>On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:40:54 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:

>>>N: The Rikie method has been suggested to me, though I know of no practicianer
>>>here.  Did you not find it helpful...or only not in the particular instance
>>>you mention?
>From my experience it all works together...and for me it is really about
>data gathering...what do I learn from engaging the process...the shoulder
>pain still persists and one of the possibilities is that this keeps me
>focused on my body and my healing...the medical intuitive gave me an energy
>practice to do daily and of course I'm not very good at all at
>routine...which could be the real lesson :-)

N: Yep.  I'm a member in good standing of that club.
>
>>>
>>>>I was looking to explore these questions:
>>>>1)what was the source of my acts of self cruelty
>>>>2)could this be tied in some way to my earlies recollection as a child of
>>>>feeling there was something very wrong with me, manifesting later through
>>>>my teens as an inferiority complex (which interestingly abated once I
>>>>oriented to Buddahism)
>>>>3)since the pain occurs on my right side and this is the *masculine* I
>>>>wanted to see what this might reveal
>>>
>>>N: I, too, find that interesting and have tried it several times.  Again
>>>that 'barrier' of non-connection arises.
>I'm not sure what you mean here...what is the non-connection connected to? ;-)

N: Probably if I knew that answer, there wouldn't be a question <g>


>>>>4)and finally how much of my experience was mine personally and how much
>>>>was this the (and I'll use a term we've spoken of here) collective psyche
>>>>(meaning what part was my empathicness playing)
>>>>
>>>>Prior to the session I began taking specific action based in my new
>>>>awareness of the concept *self cruelty*...I used this as a template around
>>>>the choices I am making in the moment, those small actions which appear
>>>>insignificant but when viewed illuminate a pattern...

N: Are you calling 'depression' and act of 'self-cruelty'?

>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>N: And again.  I don't even know what to ask...  Perhaps you can help with
>>>a connection.  What is coming to my mind is a TV show I saw last night which
>>>evoked a reaction I've been noticing about most of what comes to me these
>>>days.  It was about how the industry of cultured pearls developed in Japan.
>>>The breakthrough came when they tried 'sacrificing' (their word)one oyster
>>>so as to embed a part of it along with a pearl seedling in many.  This
>>>caused a uniformly round pearlizing substance to grow around the implant.
>>>   Nature seems very cruel to me.  The total divorce of feeling which
>>>appears to me to exist between predator and prey, pearl farmer and oyster...
>>>not to mention among humans themselves...And all most of us can see are such
>>>icy tips as the holocaust...
>
>What comes to mind here is something that has arisen here a number of times
>in the past...the outrage (if I may use that word) at the cruelity humans
>inflict on each other...and here you mention nature...I don't hold nature
>as cruel...it is what it is somehow to me...I wonder at how one would ever
>resolve feeling nature as cruel...or at least come to a place of
>acceptance...what I focus on is the beauty of nature and the cooperative
>event it brings...I was struck driving to work the other day in a great
>windstorm and seeing geese in formation soaring in concert rising and
>falling...it was breathtaking...for me it is a choice where to put my
>focus...

N: There is a variance in what comes before ones eyes.  I would suggest that
how much attention (one interpretation of 'focusing') one gives to the 'cruel'
as opposed to the 'beautiful' doesn't strike me as entirely a matter of
choice.  Sometimes it is.  Sometimes it is more derived from the state one
is in at the time.


>>>>We began by talking about my revulsion...that somehow *I* was connected to
>>>>unspeakable acts...and my fascination since childhood of the Holicaust...as
>>>>I was relating my life long feelings she said that the blocked energy in my
>>>>right bicep was beginning to unwind (since the session there is
>>>>considerable change in the knots in my biceps)...indicating that I was on
>>>>the right track...as we worked energetically we spoke of my empathicness...
>>>>
>>>>She related this story which connected many *dots* for me...
>>>>
>>>>She went to the Dali Lama's conference in Washington DC and the first night
>>>>the rimpoche who wrote the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying was
>>>>teaching...he said that when he first came to the US 20 years ago he was
>>>>completely baffled by Americans...he couldn't understand what was going on
>>>>with them...then later he came to the information...he said Americans have
>>>>a deep sense of *self-loathing* and that this is continuously playing
>>>>out...he said he couldn't relate to this because there is nothing in the
>>>>Tibetan world like this...primarily because of how they are oriented in
>>>>their life.
>>>
>>>N: I particularly wish I understood the above.

>I think there are others more equipped to speak to the collective deep
>psyche here...how I received it was that our nation has committed great
>acts of cruelty and that this resides in our collective psyche...and when I
>say I wasn't a slave holder so I'm not responsibly, on the one hand this is
>true, yet I ask myself what is my cooperation in continuing this, those
>subtle acts of participation...don't know...I remember being at a
>conference with a woman who was a former missionary and her moment of
>personal confession to the group for her participation in what she had come
>to realize for herself was a grave act against the people...

N: Well, that was a surprise.  I thought you referred to something more in
the religious line...such as Jung's notion that Christianity's emphasis on
the 'good' creates a huge shadow which might be termed 'self-loathing'.
This led me (in my relative ignorance) to suppose that something in the
Tibetan religious stance included a more integrated approach.  (Actually
I'm pretty sure there IS something to this I haven't got a good grip on
yet.)
>
>>>>
>>>>This story brought me a huge insight...I was looking at the issue of
>>>>*self-cruelty* but was not seeing the underlying cause which is in fact
>>>>*self-loathing*...my response to this had been to short circuit positive
>>>>paths in my life except as it related to me serving...interestingly I had
>>>>made a conscious decision during my health crisis contemplation to hold my
>>>>self interest and my service to the universe in equality and in reciprocity
>>>>and had been pursuing that with interesting difficulty in holding
>>>>self-interest...a certain unidentifable fear kept rising whenever I took
>>>>action for self...the fear became identified in an amazing way to me...as I
>>>>examined past patterns of self interest I found that there was a sort of
>>>>*bar* that I could go up to with my self interest but if I went *over* the
>>>>bar there was always a self cruel act, sort of a punishment...so I tested
>>>>this pattern and sure enuf when I embraced the theatre opportunity in my
>>>>totality, the fear appeared and for 2 weeks I was in a battle with it...the
>>>>fear driving me to exacerbate my creating and thus sabatage the outcome,
>>>>the performance...I had intentionally loaded this experience with all that
>>>>I am, amping the stakes...and me holding the fear and fighting with my
>>>>clear intention to serve my self...finding the *self cruelty* illuminated
>>>>the fear and once it was in my consciousness the fear once named
>>>>abated...and I manifested all that I had dreamed could be possible with the
>>>>opportunity
>>>
>>>N: This is the just concluded theater experience to which you refer?
>Yes, I see it as a learning experience...the opportunity to explore the
>issue within a highly amped environment...

N: What I am connecting with here (at the moment, rightly or wrongly) is
that something in you (or the collective psyche) was judging you 'unworthy'
of sucess expect in service to others.

>>>>Now all this said, I now am holding the data about *self loathing* and my
>>>>empathicness and the existence of this in our culture's deep psyche and
>>>>seeing what I learn...
>>>
>>>(snip)
>>>>
>>>>So, Nancy, I offer my experience and learnings from a perspective of your
>>>>depression and your INFPness and ask the question for you (which doesn't
>>>>include an expectation or asking you to share your considerations BTW): how
>>>>much is you and how much is you *channelingtransmuting* for the collective
>>>>psyche?

>>>
>>>N: I follow you with my mind.  It seems that I may be experiencing this
>>>phenomina from an opposite angle, i.e. the problem for me is that 'the
>>>world' is not empathetic, not does it seem to want to be, nor is it likely
>>>to change because I might wish it.  I feel myself to be one of those tiny
>>>bits of oyster ripped from another to be inserted in a second, which may or
>>>may not survive in the increasingly polluted waters, to grow a pearl.  The
>>>pearl then will be culled as to quality and used to enhance the vanity
>>>of some entity without a thought for the pain of its origin.
>Yes, I see how you are experiencing it...I wonder if you ever see the
>beauty and coopperation...

N; Hmmm...  I'm surpised you ask.  Depression is not a permanent state (at
least not for most of us.)  To a degree the stance you question is what
haiku is all about.

>I did an experiment a few years ago where I
>stopped reading any newspapers, mags, watching TV and noticed how I began
>to experience my moments directly in front of me...and focused on doing
>acts of kindness...the resulting life I began to create and continue to
>create has been interesting...
>
>You create through your writing and could it be the means through which you
>transmute the pain in the psyche? just a thot

N: A 'thot' always with me, but not always feasible in exicution.  I
congratulate you, if you are now able to maintain a continuous connection
with Self (two week gaps are permitted <g>)
   Some peace returned to me about 12/28 (synchronistically?) after the
last guest had left.  Today there are 2 ms in the outgoing mail.
   I wish I could say I'd learned something from this years bout.  It's
getting pretty tiresome (for me even more than for Cheryl!)
   Also wish I'm taped the 'pearl' show.  There's a short short in that
metaphor and I can't remember the exact name of the oyster part which was
implanted with the seedling pearl.  To some degree I believe that the INFPs
in our culture partake of my experience...to varying degrees.
>
>Onwaard into 1999
>Judith
>
>>>>
>>>>Judith in thinkingness and blessings for illumination.
>>>
>>>N: Again, Judith, I thank you for your well-wishes.
>>>Oh, and a PS, three of my published haiku are now on view with a rather
>>>obscure little autobiographical not at Elizabeth St. Jacques' site Poetry
>>>in the Light.
>
>I'll attempt to find this...congratulation!
>>>  Sorry, I don't know how to cite properly so you can just click on it.  I
>>>had to hunt it up myself with the help of Arfie (or to paraphrase your
>>>Tibetian, Dogpile.)
>>>
>>>Best to all,
>>>
>>>Nancy
>>>
>>>Another PS: Simon,didn't you find the author citations you gave on
>>>Narcissism gave an awfully negative view compared to Nathan's?  Just wondering.
>>>
>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:12:07 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Norms
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Hello and Happy New Year to all...

I've been intending to reintroduce myself using this (relatively new)
screenname for a few weeks, but my real life has been somewhat overwhelming.
Since the end of Nov., I've started a new job as a residential counselor in a
dual diagnosis community and dealing with the unexpected death of one of my
two brothers.  Also (if anyone remembers!) I finished my final research
project and graduated from grad school.  Making the transition from student to
real life and into *the system* has been challenging.

Anyway, I'm subscribed to Psyber-L now as CMC Psych@aol.com, but still Sheryl.

In a message dated 99-01-04 10:18:07 EST, Cheryl writes:

<< We don't ask people where they live, or who their friends are. We don't
 say anything when only 3-5 people contribute out of a list of 30+
 "participants". We don't ask (in the case of new people) who recommended
 that they join the list. We don't ask if people on the list know each
 other in real life. Actually, except for names, we don't know much at all
 about who's on the list. I could go on but won't.
  >>

Cheryl, your post to Psyber-L was a wonderful opening for me.  Maybe for
others, too?  I haven't quite known how to go about posting this information,
but a fairly recent Psyber-L subscriber, C21Teri, is my first cousin.  We've
discussed, on-line, whether to post this to Psyber-L, sort of open ourselves
up, but decided to go ahead.  I realize that in itself, this information may
not seem to other members to be that astonishing.

How our relationship has unfolded, almost completely on-line in the past year,
has surprised me, though.   Prior to our on-line communication, I had never
met Teri, except maybe through a couple of Christmas newsletters and a couple
of other postal exchanges.  After communicating on-line for several months, we
met f2f last summer.  Now she is such a constant in my life I wonder how/when
was it that I didn't know her?!

It's been a unique experience to have this on-line relationship with Teri...
one of the unique things about it has been knowing that she is not just an
unknown cyberspace phantom, just a name, as you suggest above... she is my
cousin!  We will always have that link.  If I offend her or she offends me, or
some other miscommunication that seems to happen frequently through CMC, it
would be far more difficult for either of us to just *disappear* as other on-
line relationships frequently do.

Another unique aspect of our relationship has been a willingness, I think, for
each of us to be open with each other.  From this, I've been able to more
deeply question and understand some of the dynamics of our family, to explore
*truths* that didn't turn out to be quite what I thought they were.  The
sharing of each of our perceptions of our family background has been so
enlightening, that through my relationship with Teri, my own understanding of
key people has shifted tremendously.

And then there's the fun of getting to know a cousin who has become very
special to me :)

I don't know, Cheryl, how this addresses the issues you brought up, except
maybe to lend support to the idea of benefits in getting to know someone
through CMC, individually or through a group such as Psyber-l.

Sheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:35:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Desert & Norms
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1999010412373587@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy, Judith, Cheryl all...

I have just come back from Walking in Tongariro Nat. Pk. many parts of it
nothing but volcanic ash, lava flow and rock.  The h'way nearby is called
the Desert Road. It is a place of awesome forces. Desert is a word with a
bit of meaning at the moment.

http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/img_tongerhu.html

Nancy in Re: Crossing the Deadly Desert, Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:36:52 -0500:

> N: There is a variance in what comes before ones eyes.  I would suggest that
> how much attention (one interpretation of 'focusing') one gives to the 'cruel'
> as opposed to the 'beautiful' doesn't strike me as entirely a matter of
> choice.  Sometimes it is.  Sometimes it is more derived from the state one
> is in at the time.

I find it interesting to note the passage above, just as you are finding
the list boring Cheryl. Simply noting the interconnections like this stops
me from being bored, so it is a sort of 'focussing' that I do that keeps me
interested.

I think the difference that Nancy and Judith have here, even if I over
state the case on the question of Evil, doe is exist?  Not boring, and it
has been brewing in our discussion for months.

~~~

Cheryl, I think you are onto something... the things you mention are not
all in the eyes of the beholder... and nor is the naming of the lists mood
as boring, even if it is subjective. The mood of the list may be
paralleling the mood, depression, that has been on the agenda... the way
the "list", our greater-than-the-sum-of-the-parts-entity shifts from this
mood (however we name it) into another (as it surely will) is process
pertinent to the content, manifestation of psyche at work!


Cheryl in  "Norms"  Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:26:20 -0800

> I'd like to raise the topics/questions. Here are some things I've noticed
> that we do not do. This is just a noticing and not a recommendation that
> changes be made -
>
> We don't ask people where they live, or who their friends are. We don't
> say anything when only 3-5 people contribute out of a list of 30+
> "participants". We don't ask (in the case of new people) who recommended
> that they join the list. We don't ask if people on the list know each
> other in real life. Actually, except for names, we don't know much at all
> about who's on the list. I could go on but won't.

I reckon recommend them... I presume these are things you want to see
happen.  Or do them!  There are some great questions to ask here... I'll
ask us one of them in a moment.


Walter
Stimulated by the discussions


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:14:44 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Desert & Norms

On Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:35:06 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:

>Nancy, Judith, Cheryl all...
>
>I have just come back from Walking in Tongariro Nat. Pk. many parts of it
>nothing but volcanic ash, lava flow and rock.  The h'way nearby is called
>the Desert Road. It is a place of awesome forces. Desert is a word with a
>bit of meaning at the moment.

N:  Odd you should mention 'desert', Walter, as I woke thinking
of this image in connection with Judith's question regarding
nature being...beautiful of cruel.  I thought in our Western
way of dicotomizing:
Q: Is the desert beautiful or cruel?
A: Of course.
>
>http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/img_tongerhu.html
>
N; I just forwarded the above address to my New Zealand bound
niece.  She is getting some strangely limited comments since
making known her family's new posting...such as 'we hope you
like sheep'.

>Nancy in Re: Crossing the Deadly Desert, Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:36:52 -0500:
>
>> N: There is a variance in what comes before ones eyes.  I would suggest that
>> how much attention (one interpretation of 'focusing') one gives to the 'cruel'
>> as opposed to the 'beautiful' doesn't strike me as entirely a matter of
>> choice.  Sometimes it is.  Sometimes it is more derived from the state one
>> is in at the time.
>
>I find it interesting to note the passage above, just as you are finding
>the list boring Cheryl. Simply noting the interconnections like this stops
>me from being bored, so it is a sort of 'focussing' that I do that keeps me
>interested.
>
>I think the difference that Nancy and Judith have here

N: I'm still unclear on just what that difference is.

, even if I over
>state the case on the question of Evil, doe is exist? {N: Does
it exist? I've been waiting for you to elaborate on this
Walter, since you recently said (?) that you were inclined
to think not...] Not boring, and it
>has been brewing in our discussion for months.
>
N: I'm willing to trust your view of this, though my tea
leaves don't seem to paint as clear a picture....?
>~~~
>
>Cheryl, I think you are onto something... the things you mention are not
>all in the eyes of the beholder... and nor is the naming of the lists mood
>as boring, even if it is subjective. The mood of the list may be
>paralleling the mood, depression, that has been on the agenda... the way
>the "list", our greater-than-the-sum-of-the-parts-entity shifts from this
>mood (however we name it) into another (as it surely will) is process
>pertinent to the content, manifestation of psyche at work!

N: I once read 'boredom' defined as an inner state of conflict,
and have noticed it as such in January during other years.
Surely the 'two-faced' god Janus must rightly preside over
such a state.
  Glad Sheryl took the opportunity to hop in with her cousin.
All personal info is welcomed by me, though I often feel it
somewhat intrusive to ask.

>Cheryl in  "Norms"  Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:26:20 -0800
>
>> I'd like to raise the topics/questions. Here are some things I've noticed
>> that we do not do. This is just a noticing and not a recommendation that
>> changes be made -
>>
>> We don't ask people where they live, or who their friends are. We don't
>> say anything when only 3-5 people contribute out of a list of 30+
>> "participants". We don't ask (in the case of new people) who recommended
>> that they join the list. We don't ask if people on the list know each
>> other in real life. Actually, except for names, we don't know much at all
>> about who's on the list. I could go on but won't.
>
>I reckon recommend them... I presume these are things you want to see
>happen.  Or do them!  There are some great questions to ask here... I'll
>ask us one of them in a moment.
>
>
>Walter
>Stimulated by the discussions
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:04:38 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Norms
In-Reply-To:  <ebbfae1a.36911287@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi all,

I have one wish for New Year of the Psyber-list:

No more  multible " >>> "  marks in the beginning of the rows. I don't know
the name of those barbs,  but they  are very ininviting in the multpile
form -  don't induce to  read the  text.  They seems like a fench of
brushwood,  I don't  want to climb over many barriers to fetch  your grains
of gold. I'm lazy and busy. In generel I don't understand
why you must  make long references to the former text.  At least I
remember what  was said  previously.  It is boring to reread same  words.

Yes boring, as you  said, Cheryl.  Depression is  boring, I had chronic
small depression, it lasted only ten years. Talking and writing about
depression is more  boring. But there is one  unboring book about the
subject  written by William Styron "Darkness invisible" or something like
that.
  Maybe a little gender war would  liven up the atmosphere :) Should we
call back Julienne?

Best to you all, and Refreshing New Year!

Anita


anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:33:39 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Desert & Norms
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1999010510152773@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

> >http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/img_tongerhu.html
> >
> N; I just forwarded the above address to my New Zealand bound
> niece.  She is getting some strangely limited comments since
> making known her family's new posting...such as 'we hope you
> like sheep'.

Tell her that in Christchurch we have the best coffee shops I have been
able to find, including London and Boston.  We have some good book shops
too *and* Amazon.com!

~~~

Aside:  Just bought a book which is on its way:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0471282936/psybernbooksinasA/
On Hosting online by Cliff Figgalo.

~~~

> > Not boring, and it [the question of the nature of evil]
> > has been brewing in our discussion for months.
> >
> N: I'm willing to trust your view of this, though my tea
> leaves don't seem to paint as clear a picture....?

Twenty posts in December contained the word evil... many of these quoted
each other, another reason to limit quoting.  The one that stands out for
me is this one though:

JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>

  Re: Somatization
  Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:15:41 GMT


: Losing Santa Claus is painful; losing faith in
: humanity is worse, and it's easier to pretend that there's some evil genius
: stroking his Persian cat and plotting our destruction than it is to think that
: we live in a hotbed of imperfection and foolishness and futility.


A concise summary on the whole question of evil, attitude, depression as it
has come up in our discussions would be good.  Make for a high quality
dialogue!



Walter






__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:08:10 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Norms
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.6.32.19990105120438.007deda0@megabaud.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anita

Great to see you here.

> No more  multible " >>> "

I agree whole heartedly and as Listowner and Host I have been too timid
tolerating the excessive quoting.  Apologies.

It has been clearly stated in the Psyber-L description and welcome file
that this is not good practice.  Here is the relevant quote:

| * Quoting: Please keep quoting from earlier emails (using the >
|   sign) to a minimum.  Quote enough to put your response in
|   context. Please do not use more than two generations of quoting (>>).

I have also mentioned it on several occasions in the list. I will monitor
this practice and work with people on and off-line to develop a more
inviting style.  I think it is a Host's job to do that.

Thanks Anita for the call.  It helps when others mention it, then it is
easier to do my job.

Here are some reasons for the policy:

Readability: as Anita mentions:  "I don't  want to climb over many barriers
to fetch  your grains of gold."  This is the main reason as far as I am
concerned.

Cost: everything in this list is saved to disc and online for future
reference.  It costs 25c per meg per month and it is a wasted to have
endless repeats of the messages.

Bandwidth cost: Some people pay quite a lot for traffic and even email can
add up.

Save trees:  Often people print a portion of the discussions and it is
unecological to print repeated *unnecessarily*.

Searching:  When looking for a word or phrase it comes up too many times in
a search if there is excessive quoting.

~~~


> But there is one  unboring book about the
> subject  written by William Styron "Darkness invisible" or something like
> that.

I did not like the book at all! I bought it as the edition I saw had a
beautiful cover, but reading it was such a disappointment as he finds
salvation through naming his feelings as an illness, and being thankful for
the non-therapy interventions.  I thought he was unlucky enough to find
lousy therapists.

> Maybe a little gender war would  liven up the atmosphere :) Should we
> call back Julienne?

I am sure we can have a perfectly adequate gender war without her!  :)
Even a war about the medical model and the psyche. I would prefer life and
energy without war!  One of the things that might be going on here is that
the *mailing list* format generates endless discussion.  There is no easy
glide into co-creation of a book or a web page.  I have been thinking about
this over the holidays.  Discussion of course is a wonderful thing in its
own way.

~~~

On another minor stylistic point Anita, do you have any idea why your posts
have some double  spaces  between  words?

~~~

I have quoted five lines of your post Anita... some may think that is
excessive!  On one list I am on more than 4 lines of quotes are
automatically deleted.  I like some quoting as it saves me rephrasing the
questions and it also feels like a conversation that way, excessive quoting
destroys that feeling for me.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:21:40 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Who knows who in real life?
In-Reply-To:  <3690EBAC.57D0@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

All,

paulingb@CLEAR.NET.NZ           Brian Pauling
dan@GROUPSENSE.CO.NZ            Dan Randow
miles@MAIL.COM                  Miles Thompson

All three dear friends and in their own way deeply involved in Psyber-L
silently at times.  Their presence appreciated by me!

There are 14 in addition to that who I have a good sense of from their
posts here and in other lists.  That is 17/29 which does not feel too bad
to me.


Walter


Full list printed below.  Easy to get with:

Review Psyber-L

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM


C21Teri@AOL.COM                 No Name Available
CMCPsych@AOL.COM                Sheryl Garner
hoon@APK.NET                    Stephen Calhoun
judithb@APK.NET                 Judith Buerkel
ghamsa2n@ARAMCO.COM.SA          Saleh al-Ghamdi
damian@CENTROIN.COM.BR          Maddi Damian
paulingb@CLEAR.NET.NZ           Brian Pauling
sstarr@CNR.EDU                  Sarah Starr
cfolt@COINET.COM                Cheryl Foltos
bbc@CYBERNET.DK                 Bent Bgedal Christoffersen
rcarls2@GL.UMBC.EDU             Rob Carlson
dan@GROUPSENSE.CO.NZ            Dan Randow
d_iulian@HOTMAIL.COM            David Iulian
lmartin47@HOTMAIL.COM           Linda Martin
jobfath@IX.NETCOM.COM           John Aigner
wangw@JANUS.CQU.EDU.AU          W Wang
mossy7@JUNO.COM                 Nancy Smith
miles@MAIL.COM                  Miles Thompson
anitak@MEGABAUD.FI              Anita Konkka
behra@PACBELL.NET               Virginia Branning
jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET        Janell Adair
walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ          Walter Logeman
moonasylum@QED.NET              Marie Tondreau
jschmitz@QIS.NET                JoAnne Schmitz
simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM             Simon G. Trask
aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA           Robert Longpre
dave@THE-FREAK-SHOW.DEMON.CO.UK David Postlethwaite
sswan@USD.EDU                   Susan Swan
lewis@WN.PLANET.GEN.NZ          Graham Johnson
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:36:19 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      (fwd) Cybersociology Magazine Issue Four
In-Reply-To:  <369a2011.12612080@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Forwarded by Walter Logeman:

Looks like a bit of holiday reading here!  Pity I am back at work.

~~~

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:30:14 +0000
From: Robin Hamman <robin@cybersoc.com>
Subject: Cybersociology Magazine Issue Four

CYBERSOCIOLOGY MAGAZINE ISSUE FOUR - OUT TODAY!

Cybersociology Magazine is a new forum for critical articles, papers, and
reviews about cyberspace, cyberculture, and the Internet.

The current issue (4) is the best yet with 11 feature articles, a net art
submission, a site review, and a book review. There's also a chat room, a
discussion list, and an online bookstore.

Cybersociology Magazine is edited and produced by Robin Hamman, Hypermedia
Research Centre, University of Westminster (London).

For fastest access:
UK: http://www.socio.demon.co.uk/magazine
Rest of World: http://www.cybersoc.com/magazine


++++++++++ Feature Articles ++++++++++

* Cyberpunks: A Sociological Analysis With Special Interest In The
Description Of Their Online Activities, By Markus Wiemker at the University
of Aachen RWTH Germany.

* Net Ideologies: From Cyber-liberalism to Cyber-realism, By Francisco
Millarch,   Recent Graduate (MA) of the Hypermedia Research Centre,
University of Westminster, London.

* Will the Technobabble Bubble Burst?, By Rachel Collinson, Post-Graduate
at the Hypermedia Research Centre, University of Westminster, London.

* What Is A Geek?, by Misuba (Mike Sugarbaker)

* Interview with Bruce Sterling, By Zana Poliakov of CK-
CyberKuhinja, Inc. (Cyber Kitchen) in Belgrade.

* Ken Wilber and Cyberspace, By Michel Bauwens of Kyberco
Cyber-Marketing, Paris.

* <To Be Announced> By Radhika Gajjala, Asst. Prof. in the Dept.
of Telecommunications, Bowling Green State University, Ohio.

* Trace, By Sue Thomas of TRACE, an online writing community based
at the Nottingham-Trent University, England.

* Bringing The Net To The Masses: Cybercafes In Latin America, By Dr.
Madanmohan Rao. Dr. Rao is a consultant at PlanetAsia, a web
publishing and internet firm in Bangalore, India. He edits "IndiaLine" and
is on the board of editors for "Electronic Markets" and "On The Internet".

*Revolting Temporary Media Lab: Manchester, England. By Micz Flor, Lecturer
at the University of Salford (UK) and Editor of CrashMedia.

*Notes from the Exploding Media Symposium, by Robin Hamman (email) PhD
candidate at the Hypermedia Research Centre, University of Westminster and
editor of Cybersociology Magazine.

++++++++++ Net Art ++++++++++

*The 12-hour ISBN JPEG Project, By Brad Brace (email) A continually
changing sequence of hypermodern imagery served from dozens of distributed
servers around the World.

++++++++++ Site Review ++++++++++

Portal on Global Digitalization / The Hoechst Triangle Forum
Reviewed by: M. Alan Kazlev, Australia.

++++++++++ Book Review ++++++++++

Knowledge Societies, Reviewed by Ravi Srinivas, India.

+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*
Cybersociology Magazine is located at:

UK: http://www.socio.demon.co.uk/magazine

Rest of World: http://www.cybersoc.com/magazine
+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*m

*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
Robin Hamman, PhD Candidate at the Hypermedia Research Centre,
University of Westminster, London.
   ______      __
  / ____/_  __/ /_  ___  ______________  _____
 / /   / / / / __ \/ _ \/ ___/ ___/ __ \/ ___/
/ /___/ /_/ / /_/ /  __/ /  (__  ) /_/ / /__
\____/\__, /_.___/\___/_/  /____/\____/\___/
     /____/  http://www.cybersoc.com

*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
Carpe Mo-Diem = Seize the Digital Day

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:14:15 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Psyber-L in New-List Archives
In-Reply-To:  <369f2d9f.16082395@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Psyber-L has just been updated in the New-List archives:

http://scout18.cs.wisc.edu/new-list/CD/0011.html


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:36:38 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Desert & Norms

my New Zealand bound
>> niece is getting some strangely limited comments since
>> making known her family's new posting...such as 'we hope you
>> like sheep'.
>
>Tell her that in Christchurch we have the best coffee shops I have been
>able to find, including London and Boston.  We have some good book shops
>too *and* Amazon.com!

N: Will do.  At the moment I think she is most interested in schools for her
two rather opposite boys: one sensitive and inward, the other athletic and
outgoing.
>~~~

>
>JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>

>: Losing Santa Claus is painful; losing faith in
>: humanity is worse, and it's easier to pretend that there's some evil genius
>: stroking his Persian cat and plotting our destruction than it is to think that
>: we live in a hotbed of imperfection and foolishness and futility

>A concise summary on the whole question of evil, attitude, depression as it
>has come up in our discussions would be good.  Make for a high quality
>dialogue!
>
>Walter

N: Always makes me think of Hitler.  What little I know of either his nurture
or nature seem to adequately explain his effect on the world.  Seems more
like a case of the 'right' make of spark plug in the 'right' engine at the
'right' time (please feel free to substitute 'wrong' for 'right'.)

Nancy
Wondering if we prefer 'evil' to boredom.
__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:53:21 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Desert & Norms
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1999010609373284@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy

Hitler is on my mind... I have stated planning some sort of millennium
celebration for friends and family. Part of the plan includes reviewing the
last millennium and its impact on us as individuals.  Taking a few days for
the whole process, and having some time just for this century.  There is no
doubt that the world wars will come up large.

I was born in the second one, and it has impacted on me in many ways.
While people my age cant remember it, we feel it I think, especially as i
was a baby in occupied Holland for the first year of my life.  The big
impact is of course that it totally transformed my parents.

I recall my mother telling me that she saw children being transported like
cattle to Germany and was helpless to do anything.  German soldiers raided
our house looking for my father who was hiding under the bed!  They did not
find him.

In my own therapy as I puzzle over the family dynamics I sometimes see
these sorts of things as having influenced them.

I agree... Hitler is symptom not cause.  Symptom of what then?  Larger
awesome forces?  Evil.  Evil which the transition into a new millennium
unfortunately will not eradicate.

> Wondering if we prefer 'evil' to boredom.

May be it is a sort of evil.  I had a supervisor who used to fall asleep in
the group supervision sessions.  Occasionally she would wake up and ask:
"who are you protecting and what are you avoiding?"  She had a theory that
boredom was a reflection of avoidance of something *difficult*.  (Fits with
the Janus / conflict idea.)  The inability to be able to do a thing about
the rise of these evil forces was a sort of avoiding and protecting I
imagine.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:36:56 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Discussion of Evil
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter, all,

The quote you mentioned re; evil was the one that stood out for me also
but I let pass making any comment. I guess I will comment now that it's
come up a second time...

For me, Nancy's comment is exactly the opposite. To me it's much more
horrifying to imagine an evil genuis somewhere plotting destruction than
to  realize that the world is a place of "imperfection, foolishness and
futility". I would not use the word futility myself but imperfection and
foolisness, yes. Why? Becuase as an indivdual I can both come to terms
with my own imperfections and foolishness (and thereby learn to accept
the same in others) by taking responsibility for myself and by learning
self-accetance. Perhaps it's somehting that comes with age (another
question for the list: how old is everyone? :)) perhaps it comes about
with inner diligence or just a Pollyanna attitude - Although personally I
tend to be a little more on the dry practical side than the Pollyannaish
side. Still, the idea of an evil genuis (ie somebody "other") places
everyone else in the "victim" role - "he" or "she" did it, is
responsible, is the evil one, not "me" or "us" , etc etc. I can do
something about "me" but I may not be able to do something about the
"other". Pretending the evil is somewhere else or in someone else is an
abdication of responsibility of a dangerous sort. Plus it deprives opne
of the opportunity to own one's own life - imperfect and foolish as it
may be including all the moments of the feeling of futility. I think of
Sisyphus rolling his rock up the hill only to have it roll back down
again. Futile, maybe, but it's good exercise. ;)

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:48:31 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Boredom
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy, Walter, all,

Just read your posts from this morning, I agree that my boredom was here
was an avoidance of saying the things I wanted to say - as in the post
called "Norms" I was avoiding speaking out of fear of rasing conflict in
the group that might not get resolved. I think Julienne's shadow still
hangs here - I also thing that her banishemnt might have been a failutre
of the medium to resolve conflict - I was a part of the group for part of
the time she was here and remeber thinking from time to time that some of
the conflict that going on was a scape-goating - a failure of people to
take responsibility for their won shadow side which she evoked. And she
did evoke things and she was difficult. So somewhere in the back of mind
is the warning, "That could happen to you. This medium is a big risk
context if you're not skillfull enough with language", etc, etc. I felt
the same as Anita about the quoting but I did not want to say anything
because I did not want it to be taken personally. I think it's so easy to
take things personally here because we don't know "the persons" - we only
know words on a screen and our own feelings about them.

Yes, boredom = avoidance. But not avoiding is very s-c-a-r-y.

I quiver. And get teary eyed. I'm a fragile creature human being.
Sometimes.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:59:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Discussion of Evil
In-Reply-To:  <36939128.32CB@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:36:56 -0800, you, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>, wrote:

>Walter, all,
>
>The quote you mentioned re; evil was the one that stood out for me also
>but I let pass making any comment. I guess I will comment now that it's
>come up a second time...
>
>For me, Nancy's comment is exactly the opposite. To me it's much more
>horrifying to imagine an evil genuis somewhere plotting destruction than
>to  realize that the world is a place of "imperfection, foolishness and
>futility". I would not use the word futility myself but imperfection and
>foolisness, yes.

Actually part of that was my comment resurrected by Nancy.

The world's filled with these things -- imperfection and foolishness occur, and
futility, and happiness, and success, and middling semi-success, and all the
rest.

For some people there is some kind of perfect world that we could have if
only...if only...I think that is the kind of thinking that bothers me.  It's not
possible.  It feels almost fascistic, narcissistic, in that we're all supposed
to stop what we are doing and listen to what that person says, and all do what
s/he thinks will make a world of peace and harmony.

>Still, the idea of an evil genuis (ie somebody "other") places
>everyone else in the "victim" role - "he" or "she" did it, is
>responsible, is the evil one, not "me" or "us" , etc etc. I can do
>something about "me" but I may not be able to do something about the
>"other". Pretending the evil is somewhere else or in someone else is an
>abdication of responsibility of a dangerous sort.

It's not always pretending.  Some people believe there's an evil being out there
preying on us poor defenseless things in here, that is the source of all
problems.  What, after all, is the Devil, if not that?  There are different
abstract layers to it in some philosophies, but others personify it as one or
more real individuals.

>Plus it deprives opne
>of the opportunity to own one's own life - imperfect and foolish as it
>may be including all the moments of the feeling of futility. I think of
>Sisyphus rolling his rock up the hill only to have it roll back down
>again. Futile, maybe, but it's good exercise. ;)

The world may never change.  That doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to
ourselves of making ourselves into something worth while, as we are able.  Some
more than others, some more able than others.

I tend to go along with the vector theory -- if you're pointed in the right
direction more often than not, moving the right way, that's the main thing.  You
won't get "there" unless there's a heaven but that's not the point.

-JoAnne

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:17:32 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Loretta Kemsley
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Welcome Lore,

Thanks for joining the list.  Below is the intro that you sent to me.  We
have been posting intros like this relatively recently, and i hope it will
work as planned.  The idea is that people will get a chance to really know
who is on the list and newcomers such as yourself, and some others recently
can be welcomed by others here.

I have had a look at your links and I have a sense that many of the things
we have brewing away here will be of interest to you.

Walter

~~~

Here is your intro in full:


~~~quote~~~


To: PSYBER-L-request@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: PSYBER-L: scorpio@ARTNET.NET requested to join
From: scorpio@ARTNET.NET
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:11:49 -0800


Good morning,

An Internet inhabitant since 1996, I've found myself growing and changing
in ways which I think I would not have experienced without the virtual
world. It has been upsetting to those in 'real' life in that I have learned
new and healthier ways of interacting via people who do not have a personal
need for me to behave in a certain manner.

I logged on because of my interest in publishing and am now the publisher
of a well respected women's ezine.  The 1994 Northridge earthquake (and the
resultant lawsuit with my insurance company) resulted in severe damage to
my home, loss of my personal property, and a deep feeling of despair. It
was amid despair that I decided I needed to pursue a new life.  Per Kris
Kristofferson's "Bobby McGee":  "Freedom's just another word for nothing
left to do." I had already given up my job in accounting because I was too
overwhelmed emotionally to handle the pressure.

Instead of returning to accounting, I decided now was the time to return to
my first love, writing. I hold a degree in journalism, have won awards for
my writing, and knew I could make it, even if times would be financially
lean for awhile.  I just completed judging a writing contest, have been
asked to judge another, am coaching other writers, and am teaching writing
online. My work is well enough respected that the latest acceptance, where
I offered to do one of two articles they needed done, they responded
immediately by saying I could have my choice and they would hold of
assigning either article until I made my selection.  That's pretty powerful
from a writer's point of view.  Now that I am on the verge of realizing my
dreams, I find myself a little scared by it all, tempted to do some
'creative u-turns.'

I know these feelings come from old 'stuff,' so when the notice for this
list came through, I took it as manna from heaven and decided to give it a
try.

Lore

Loretta Kemsley
President

Women Artists and Writers International
Publisher of MOONDANCE: Celebrating Creative Women
Our vision, our wisdom, our strength
http://www.moondance.org
For information about WAWI: mailto:wawi@moondance.org

Writer, Editor and Editorial Coach
Personal Portfolio: Women's Writings
http://www.moondance.org/lore/portfolio.htm


~~~end quote~~~






__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:02:56 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     Resent-From: Rob Carlson <rcarls2@umbc.edu>
Comments:     Originally-From: Rob Carlson <rcarls2@umbc.edu>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@UMBC.EDU>
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore County
Subject:      Re: Who knows who in real life?
In-Reply-To:  <369b2815.14664990@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi Walter,

I know JoAnne Schmitz personally, and we've met two or three times in the
past in Baltimore City.  I know (knew) Julienne and Kris from way back
when when all four of us were operating our own mailing lists from my home
computer.  In fact, I was the one that found the NEW-LIST announcement and
introduced the three of them simultaenously to this forum.

Then I got real busy and faded away from the mailing list scene.  Am I
back?  Maybe.  If I don't get lynched for admitting that I was the
indirect cause of the inital list ruckus. Anyway, I got that subscribtion
renewal thing and I believe I confirmed it, but I can't be sure. I'm sure
I'll find out in a week or so.

As far as linking to other friends in cyberspace, you might want to check
out my favorite site at www.sixdegrees.com.  If anyone has ever played the
Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon Game[1] among friends, you'll find this
fascinating because this site does it with the 1.4 million subscribers,
linking up how people are related to one another, friends, associates,
co-workers, etc. and lets you see how you are connected with anyone else
in that service, and even add your own friends to the mix.

That's all from here.  More later.

Rob

[1] The game is played by picking a random or obscure actor.  Then you
take a movie that they were in, and think of all the other actors in that
movie.  That's the first degree.  Then take one of those actors, and the
movies that they were in, and all the other actors in those movies., and
on and on.  Evantually you want to pick a movie where an actor who was
with an actor who was with an actor, ALSO played with Kevin Bacon.  The
one with the fewest degrees is the winner.

--
Rob Carlson, KC2AEI | rcarls2@umbc.edu | http://umbc.edu/~rcarls2

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Walter Logeman wrote:

> All three dear friends and in their own way deeply involved in Psyber-L
> silently at times.  Their presence appreciated by me!
> There are 14 in addition to that who I have a good sense of from their
> posts here and in other lists.  That is 17/29 which does not feel too bad
> to me.

> jschmitz@QIS.NET                JoAnne Schmitz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:55:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Norms
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter and all,
Well, now I have a specific reason to read the Psyber-L description and
welcome file again...missed the >>> from my long ago reading and certainly
will cease >>>>ing...BTW it is perfectly fine to direct issues which are
mine to me with comments...

Judith with apologies

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:09:49 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Who knows who in real life?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In response to Cheryl's questions,

Stephen, formerly Hoon, brought me to the list, admittedly reluctantly
because of my therapy prejudice but I thot why not confront it...I've
benefitted immeasurably from the associations here...most of which is not
*seen* here spilling over in wonderful ways into my f2f life...anyway as
most know Stephen and I do a gig around squareONE which Stephen writes
about in our (his creativity) web site

Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:29:31 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Discussion of Evil
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

All,

JoAnn writes,

>The world's filled with these things -- imperfection and foolishness occur, and
>futility, and happiness, and success, and middling semi-success, and all the
>rest.

I read a quote this week which came up during Nancy and my dialogue about
nature and cruelty...the quote said: The world is wonderful and awful

>For some people there is some kind of perfect world that we could have if
>only...if only...I think that is the kind of thinking that bothers me.
>It's not
>possible.  It feels almost fascistic, narcissistic, in that we're all supposed
>to stop what we are doing and listen to what that person says, and all do what
>s/he thinks will make a world of peace and harmony.

JoAnn, thanks for putting this thot out...and there is the issue that my
idea of peach (typo :-) and harmony isn't another's

>The world may never change.  That doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to
>ourselves of making ourselves into something worth while, as we are able.  Some
>more than others, some more able than others

I'm wondering if have the Evil Demon is embedded in the psyche
child...meaning a level of maturation where one has to be protected and
can't fully take responsibility as yet...my learning around this has
focused on the word *opportunism*...learning to recognize this dynamic as
it plays out...and then learning what my response is to be...Hitler was
opportunistic in one sense that he played on the deep fears of Germans
coming out of WWI and the horrible financial times which resulted...and he
was able to project the mass fear onto the Jews who had money...
>
>-JoAnne
>
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:09:48 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Welcome Lore
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Lore,
Welcome to the list - boring as it is (grin with tongue in cheek)

That's a great name for someone who is a writer. I'd like to read
something that you've written. Can you direct me?
Thanks.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:13:35 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Who Have You Invited?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

Lore mentioned that 'the notice for the list' came through. I know you
mentioned awhile back that you were going tp put notices to join the list
out to a wider audience and I'd like to know where you've advertised us
and how you chose where to put the notices.

Since I'm in the boat, (but blindfolded) I'd like to know where we're
fishing....

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 07:54:04 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Lore
In-Reply-To:  <3694DC4C.17F0@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>That's a great name for someone who is a writer. I'd like to read
>something that you've written. Can you direct me?
>Thanks.

Cheryl,

Thanks for the welcome.  You can find my URLs at the bottom of my sig.  I
also teach writing online.  You can see a transcript of one live session at
Inkspot at  http://www.inkspot.com/ss/iwcc/

"Lore" is the shortened version of my full name, Loretta.  I got tired of
typing the whole thing. I started with Lor, but other writers objected and
liked this better.  They said it fits because I seem to know the history of
everything--yeah, I wish. I just do a lot of reading and research.

Lore

Loretta Kemsley
President

Women Artists and Writers International
Publisher of MOONDANCE: Celebrating Creative Women
Our vision, our wisdom, our strength
http://www.moondance.org
For information about WAWI: mailto:wawi@moondance.org

Writer, Editor and Editorial Coach
Personal Portfolio: Women's Writings
http://www.moondance.org/lore/portfolio.htm

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:25:39 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L in New-List Archives
In-Reply-To:  <36a56f4d.32899824@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello Walter,


At 14:14 6.1.1999 GMT, you wrote:
>Psyber-L has just been updated in the New-List archives:
>
>http://scout18.cs.wisc.edu/new-list/CD/0011.html

What this means in in practice?

You said, that you did not like William  Styron's Darkness Invisible at
all! I understand you. It is an odd, little book, which divides opinions in
two: either you like or dislike it.

You asked why my posts have some double spaces between words? I really
don't know, but maybe I press the space-bar two or three times in
succession, when I'm typing. I'll try to correct my mistake.

Best wishes
Anita




anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:15:28 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Boredom
In-Reply-To:  <369393DF.4899@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello Newcomers, and Cheryl,

Cheryl,you wrote about the conflict resolving concerning to Julienne. I
don't know,if you were here at that time, when Charles suggested to his
solution to the conflict, but Julienne rejected the suggestion. It was
quite frustrating. Maybe you are right:"Julienne's shadow still
hangs here". Aggression turned into depression, and now we are quarded in
what we say. I,too, am on my toes here, because I wouldn't want to draw the
shadow projection on me.

Hello and  welcome New members. I'm  Anita. I write seldom on the list,
because my native langauge is not English. I'm an oldie here, almost three
years old. I found my way onto the list, when I was making
an AltaVista search of the words "Jung" and "shadow".  I made at that time
a lecture on the subject: The shadow in the literature." As far I can
remember my first contribution on the list was writers' deep and horrible
shadow. I live in Helsinki, Finland,  I have two sons, two cats, and two
grandchildren.

Best to you  Newcomers!

Anita Konkka

More about me:





anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:08:24 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Lorraine King
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Welcome Lorraine King

Good to have you on board.  Thanks for your thoughtful response in the
subscription process, which I have  posted below. You raise many topics I would
certainly like to discuss here!

Walter


~~~

Here is your intro:

~~~quote~~~

A description of your list was posted to the CYBERMIND/Philosophy and
Psychology of Cyberspace listserv. Relevant comments in the description
posted included: "...how online group interaction effects the psyche..." and
"...leadership in communication networks, creating communication
environments..." The Purpose in the Description file seems compatible with
aspects of my personal explorations online. These include an informal
interest in what I have seen referred to as "cyberpsychology."

My formal experiences in the discipline of psychology comprise a few
university courses many years ago. Accordingly, any academic lists I have
found are usually too theoretically focused for my taste. Business-related
sites and lists based in the field of organizational behaviour or related
disciplines seem more focused on practicing consultants identifying and
sharing so-called "best practices."

Social communities on the net often show promise of creating environments
where the effects of online group interaction on individual and group psyche
can be communally explored. However, such situations seem inevitably to
separate participants into several discussion streams, the people interested
in deeply exploring the Net's effect on themselves and others being labelled
as the "meta" crowd. Typically, the latter group end up marginalized within
the community. While I have seen this happen in a couple of online
communities, I have been unable to figure out why this marginalization
occurs.

Since your list seems focused on what would typically be referred to as
"meta" in the online communities I have participated in, it may present an
opportunity to further explore ideas unofficially deemed inappropriate in
many online communities.

By way of personal introduction:

For several years, I have enjoyed remaining home with my youngest child.
Since he is now in kindergarten, I will soon have to decide what I want to do
with the rest of my professional life. Previously, I worked under contract to
professionals providing services primarily to small businesses.

~~~end quote~~~




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:41:15 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L in New-List Archives
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.6.32.19990107212539.007c5630@megabaud.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anita, All,

> >Psyber-L has just been updated in the New-List archives:
> >
> >http://scout18.cs.wisc.edu/new-list/CD/0011.html
>
> What this means in in practice?

I posted a notice of Psyber-L changes to the New-List.  New-List is one
of the main ways lists are announced on the net, and from there many
people copy relevant announcements to other lists.  This has obviously
happened as Lorraine responded to the item in CYBERMIND.

I think this might be a good time to post the announcement to other
lists that are relevant.  It has taken a while to discuss these changes,
make them and to consolidate them.

I have announced this list in New-List twice before each time about 100
people joined.  This time I think it will be very different.  One, there
are now so many more places for people to go on the net, two, this time
people are being asked to write an intro, which will be posted here.

I am pleased with the change, I think that it makes for a very different
and more personal feel here.  There is another change that was made some
time ago, and that is that people who do not write to the list for a few
months are asked, automatically to respond to an email stating they wish
to continue membership.  We can now rest assured that everyone on the
list has done that, hence we have a much more conscious membership, than
back in the days when there were 150 members.

~~~

> You asked why my posts have some double spaces between words? I really
> don't know, but maybe I press the space-bar two or three times in
> succession, when I'm typing. I'll try to correct my mistake.

Wow, I thought it must be something about your software.  I hope you did
not mind me pointing it out.  It is no big thing really, but I must
admit to preferring your paragraphs without the extra spaces!  Perhaps
they were adding something by the way of Finnish accent <g>.

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:55:19 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome renata verschraegen
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Welcome renata verschraegen,

Thanks for your intro!  You don't say which country you are from.  Is it
the Netherlands, your name sounds Dutch.  If so I am surprised not many
are on the net... now I am curious!

I was born in Amsterdam in 1944.  Emigrated with parents to Australia in
1952, and then emigrated on my own to New Zealand in 1966.  Means I have
multi cultural flows in my psyche.

I can still speak reasonable Dutch and I have a great dutch spelling
checker!

Perhaps you are not Dutch at all!  Welcome to Psyber-L!


Walter


~~~


Here is your intro:

~~~quote~~~







Been on the Net for about a year, starting with great expectations: a
new way of communicating etc... Realizing that you take whoever you
are everywhere, and that includes the Net.

Wondering how easily some people shift to other genders, other
personalities, other moral/ethical (etc.) values ... do some people
feel they are actually invisible on the net? Aren't you always visible
to yourself?

Maybe strange, but I try to behave myself on the Net by the same
standards as in the "real world". Anyway, I don't really understand
the difference between the "real world" and Internet, for me it's all
part of the same reality, the same interaction.

Seems to me that I'm "missing out" on a lot sometimes.

Anyway, I live in a country where most of the people aren't on the
Net, and I find myself telling about it in a pretty clumsy way.

Why is it so fascinating? Why do I want to perceive how human
interaction maybe "works" differently on the Net?

I think that joining this list could help me gain some insight (in me
and others).

renata

PS Why do I feel as if I'm doing a real tough job interview for a job
I really would like to have?


~~~end quote~~~








__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:58:04 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Norms
In-Reply-To:  <v01550107b2ba25588e38@[207.54.160.107]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith, all,

> will cease >>>>ing...BTW it is perfectly fine to direct issues which are
> mine to me with comments...
>
> Judith with apologies

No need to apologise.

If anyone does, it is me for neglecting to do the simple thing you
mention... to direct this matter to you directly!

I have been feeling like Cheryl, who said:  "I felt the same as Anita
about the quoting but I did not want to say anything because I did not
want it to be taken personally."  It might seem that as the Listowner I
would have no such fears... but i do, although I was not fully aware of
it.  To be fair to myself I have mentioned the quoting on several
occasions a long to me ago, but obviously not clearly or directly.

I think my fears are related to having the "awesome" power of being able
to delete names from the list.  Believe me it is not a responsibility i
enjoy.  All this is *nothing* to do with quoting etc. but all about my
life long grappling with personal power. It is a long story, which has
been addressed but not resolved.  It began with having more power over
my mother than was good for me!  Then feeling bad because I could not
handle the extra ability I had simply due to age, over my brother who
was 18 mths younger.  Then of course there was the difficulty of being a
man in a patriarchal world and being accused of "dominance" etc. which
was probably true, but did not feel that way.

I feel better with legitimately designated power, such as listowning
(though you can see my difficulty!)  I am hesitant, stuck, in less
prescribed situations where I want to make a change but there is no
designated leader... as with family and friends.  If there is a leader,
then i can address him or her.  In our marriage I am at ease. We simply
*process* all these things so well together that I rest assured we will
sort out whatever comes up.

I think there is a connection too with the shadow of having removed
someone from the list.  I did that with difficulty and for all the
discussion we have had about it, and the support I have felt from people
here there is a seam of scarring... I sense it not so much as a personal
thing but as a fragile layer in the geological layers under the
immediate life here.

I think the changes to the list since that time will have an impact.
The way people are asked to read the description and indicate they have
read it and then to introduce themselves will mean people are more
conscious of our Norms (!) and our purpose, and will know each other
better.  This will make it less likely that there will be the sort of
difficulty we had.  It is all in the warm-up.

That is more on the rational level... the fragility is on another plane
altogether.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:07:01 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Dean Kiley
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Welcome Dean Kiley

Good to have you on the list.  We have had several people join as a
result of the announcement of changes to the list.  It seems we are
getting a range of people with expertise in the very area that Psyber-L
covers.  Hypertextuality seems highly relevant.  I guess the psyber-L
approach is to share our *experience* of these things, even right here
in the list.

Dean, your intro is posted below:


~~~quote~~~



I am a lecturer in the Department of English at the University of
Melbourne, in Australia.  I concocted, and have been teaching now for
two years, a subject called Hypertextuality, which looks at all
dimensions of writing, designing, reading and thinking onscreen and
online; and one of the major threads of the course is the psychology,
perceptual frames and everyday epistemology of the full range of
computer-mediated communication . . . so this list would seem perfectly
suited to my interests.  I'm also the editor of a web journal -- extra!
(temporarily at http://members.xoom.com/olande/extra.htm) -- and fiction
editor of overland literary journal, and have a longterm fascination
with the links between graphic/sound/text design and the psychology of
interpretation onscreen.

Look forward to an engaging list,


Dean

--
Dean Kiley
Department of English with Cultural Studies
University of Melbourne
'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^'^
Ph: (03) 9326 6586 [H]   (03) 9344 5280 [W]
Email: d.kiley@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au



~~~end quote~~~

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:14:42 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Charles' Suggestion
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anita,

In response to your question - I wan't here when Charles made a
suggestion as to how to resolve the Julienne conflict (at least I don't
think I was or at the very least don't remember it) I'd like to know what
he suggested as Charles' insights are always worth a consider. Can you
fill me in.

btw, glad to hear from you. I've always enjoyed your presence here. I do
agree that perhaps a movement within the list from banishment to
suppressed agression as a result of that banishment may have resulted in
a kind of "list depression".  Or at least, it was the next "logical" as
in the logic of Psyche, emergent energy. It's quite interesting to see
this movement over time in the list - it may be the first time I've had a
sense of Psyche (with a capital "P") moving anywhere at all. Really kind
of surprising to me but I do see (and feel) it. Amazing really.

I value your insigfhts Anita. I hope you speak up more. You used to
contribute a little more, I remember. I also appraciate the effort you
make to post in a second language. Thanks.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:22:10 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      1st Cousins
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl,

Has your cousin Teri ever posted on the list? Did I miss it? I think it's
cool that we actually have blood relatives here. I'm not sure if I
understood - was this happenstance or did you recommend the list? I was
sorry to hear that you lost a brother. My brother has beeebn "lost" to me
for @ 3 years after a bicycle accident left him a quadraplegic with
little cognitive function. He doesn't talk, can't move, can't sit up,..
it's very hard for me but so much worse for him. It's really made me
wonder about the value of life and when is it not worth living anymore.
We can't ask him and he can't tell us. I haven't visited in a long time -
it's almost too wrenching for me. Anyway....

I hope you post more too.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:24:04 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      CMC?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl,

P.S. What is CMC?

Thanks

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:08:05 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      List Changes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

It's been on the tip of my keystroke to ask if anyone on this list is
getting a PhD based on his/her "observation of" of the list. I noticed
that those people that you mentioned as near and dear are ones that do do
not particpiate. Then I noticed that the others that you mentioned
having a good sense of are also ones that do not particpate. Then I
remember that this list is an experiment for you (and yours?) and of
course then I began wondering..and lo and behold, here are lots of new
people which seem like University types and well, you know, Walter, I
just have to ask the question... are we a part of any University-based
project for you or anyone on this list? You know this has been a question
for me all along...just how is this list "being used" by all those
participants who don't participate here? At what level are all these
long-time silent people "participating"? I would be interested in knowing
how long each person has been on the list. I ask all these things because
I am invested in being here and it's beginning to feel like an
"environment" for me or a "hood" as they say here in some places and I
want to know who's in my neighborhood, so to speak. And what they're up
to. Seem like legitimate questions to me.

Cheryl
with all due respect

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:35:07 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: List Changes
In-Reply-To:  <36961F55.2545@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl

> I
> just have to ask the question... are we a part of any University-based
> project for you or anyone on this list?

Here is the quote from the description:

http://psybernet.co.nz/pl_descript.txt

| The list is an environment in which its participants can
| experiment and learn from experience about the scope of online
| interaction for ethical psychological depth work.  Psyber-L is
| forum for individual experiential research, it is requested that
| the list is not used for academic or other research.

The tradition that "you own your words" also applies here.  I am not at
university. If anyone were doing the sort of thing you fear, it would be
highly unethical.

All that said, this list does have learning *about* psychological
interaction on the net as part of its purpose. Participation here I hope
will benefit ones "psychological work" on the net, be that hosting
interaction or cyber-therapy or writing in the medium.  In that sense it
is a little different from sharing about our lives, and nothing else.
In some forums where that is the purpose, to do too much discussion
*about* the process may be frowned upon.  As Lorraine mentioned in her
intro the stated purpose here has that "meta" aspect.

I understand your fears Cheryl and I think that checking these things
out is the way to build trust here and to also help build those norms
which go beyond anything that can be stated in the list description.  I
like the idea that with the closed archives and the writer's ownership
of the words, we are creating a space where we can go more fully into
our experiences.

The model for this combination of personal sharing and learning about
methods and the media was my training in psychodrama.  Much personal
work was done as part of learning to be a director.  Here my experience
has been similar, the "gender and flame wars" have had an impact on me
personally and at the same time have taught me a lot about the *roles*
such as listowner & host.  I am not the only one to learn from it all I
am sure.

I am delighted by the new "faces" here, and look forward to the
experience that people have in so many relevant ways.

All the best with your efforts at creating a comfort zone in this
"neighbourhood"!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:54:45 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>
Subject:      Re: List Changes
In-Reply-To:  <36992ca0.38678835@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter wrote:

>All that said, this list does have learning *about* psychological
>interaction on the net as part of its purpose. Participation here I hope
>will benefit ones "psychological work" on the net, be that hosting
>interaction or cyber-therapy or writing in the medium.  In that sense it
>is a little different from sharing about our lives, and nothing else.
>In some forums where that is the purpose, to do too much discussion
>*about* the process may be frowned upon.  As Lorraine mentioned in her
>intro the stated purpose here has that "meta" aspect.


It is exactly this aspect I am looking for. I didn't want to join a list
where one bares their personal angst for the sole purpose of baring it.
These journies into self need a goal, IMO, a rainbow at the end, so to
speak.  Because my exploration of self has profited enormously from my
experiences on the net, I wanted a place where others would want to share
their ideas on this new and exciting cyber adventure.

lore

Loretta Kemsley
President

Women Artists and Writers International
Publisher of MOONDANCE: Celebrating Creative Women
Our vision, our wisdom, our strength
http://www.moondance.org
For information about WAWI: mailto:wawi@moondance.org

Writer, Editor and Editorial Coach
Personal Portfolio: Women's Writings
http://www.moondance.org/lore/portfolio.htm

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:13:50 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>
Subject:      Gender and flame wars
In-Reply-To:  <36992ca0.38678835@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

Walter wrote:


the "gender and flame wars" have had an impact on me

>personally and at the same time have taught me a lot about the
*roles*

>such as listowner & host.  I am not the only one to learn from it all
I

>am sure.


This is a topic near to my soul. I wanted to share with you an
experiment I did when I first joined the net.  It is not scientific by
any means, just something I did to see the reactions.


In a writers discussion group, I logged in on with two separate
personas--one male, one female--I began a 'debate' between them. It
wasn't long before others picked up the thread, all male, who sided
with the male persona and told the female persona she was irrational in
her arguments. The lone female who jumped in asked her to be more
polite to the male. While these responses were coming in, I had the two
personas switch sides in the argument. Although they did not announce
it, it was obvious to anyone who was truly reading the posts. The same
reactions from others continued to flow in, with one male becoming so
aggressive he was insulting the female over her sexual conduct and
identity. This man became so enraged he began writing threatening posts
offlist. On list, he threatened to quit the list if she didn't stop
attacking him and others. (Keep in mind, that neither of my two
personas ever responded to a single post from others). More women
jumped in, either defending her and telling him to go, or the exact
opposite, imploring her to quit attacking him and let peace return.
Some wrote offline, telling her that although her points were correct,
she should tone it down because it was disturbing the men. One
suggested she could be more assertive when the men knew her better.  No
one asked the male persona to tone it down.


The aggressive male did unsub, very noisely, but remained lurking with
another email address (The 'female' alerted to this by a woman who had
long hated him but feared to make waves.)  A couple of women than went
into a wailing lament about the great loss of this fabulous man, all
caused by this new and aggressive female.


I found it interestng that his most ferocouus supporters were women who
did not bother to correspond with the female in question nor did anyone
seem to check 'her' posts to see what she had said to him that was so
terrible.  When things got really hot, the other men went silent.  I
also found it interesting that those who attacked the 'female' called
her aggressive (along with other things) while those who supported,
albiet on the QT, called her assertive.


Other studies I have read indicate this is normal behavior on lists,
with men unsubbing when women post too much.  This is an excerpt from
an article I wrote:


>Women consistently receive fewer average responses than men.   In one
of the discussions on "sexism," 89% of men received an explicit
response, as compared with only 70% of women.  Both men and women
responded more often to men.   Women acknowledging other women's
postings constitute the smallest portion of total responses, an
implicit recognition, perhaps, of the more powerful status of men in
the groups.  Topics initiated by women become topics of discussion by
the group as a whole less often.  On rare occasions when women persist
in posting on a given topic despite relative lack of response, the
outcome may be even more discouraging. When the women's rate of posting
increased gradually until it equaled 50% of the contributions for a
period of one or two days, the reaction was virtually identical in
three separate cases.  A handful of men condemned the topic of
discussion, while several threatened to cancel their subscription to
the list.  Various reasons were given, none of them citing women's
participation directly: the tone was too "vituperative" or the topics
were "inappropriate."  These reactions are consistent with Spender's
(1979) claim that women cannot contribute half of the talk in a
discussion without making men feel uncomfortable or threatened.  She
found men (and to a lesser degree, women) perceive women as talking
more than men when women talk only 30% of the time.  This phenomenon is
not limited to Spender's academic seminar data but rather is a feature
of mixed-sex conversation in public settings more generally.
(Herring, 1992)



Loretta Kemsley

President


Women Artists and Writers International

Publisher of MOONDANCE: Celebrating Creative Women

Our vision, our wisdom, our strength

http://www.moondance.org

For information about WAWI: mailto:wawi@moondance.org


Writer, Editor and Editorial Coach

Personal Portfolio: Women's Writings

http://www.moondance.org/lore/portfolio.htm

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:54:59 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: 1st Cousins
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Cheryl...

In a message dated 99-01-08 09:18:24 EST, you write:

<< Has your cousin Teri ever posted on the list? Did I miss it? I think it's
 cool that we actually have blood relatives here. I'm not sure if I
 understood - was this happenstance or did you recommend the list? >>

No, she has not posted yet.  I wrote Teri a little about my experience with
Psyber-L, which I felt had an impact on my personal growth and awareness of
myself and others.

I have told others I know on-line or f2f about Psyber-L, but none have had any
interest in it... how do you explain to someone how compelling this group can
be?  The gratification seems to me to come through the process rather than
goals.

Anyway, I thought it was very cool that Teri subscribed... someone I knew
interested enough in something that I was interested in who wanted to see what
it was about.  That in itself was very special to me, whether she ever feels
like posting or not.

<<I was  sorry to hear that you lost a brother. My brother has beeebn "lost"
to me
 for @ 3 years after a bicycle accident left him a quadraplegic with
 little cognitive function. He doesn't talk, can't move, can't sit up,..
 it's very hard for me but so much worse for him. It's really made me
 wonder about the value of life and when is it not worth living anymore.
 We can't ask him and he can't tell us. I haven't visited in a long time -
 it's almost too wrenching for me. Anyway.... >>

Thanks, Cheryl.  I'm sorry to hear about your brother... the impact of his
accident must be so very difficult.  Can he communicate at all?  I haven't had
much experience with a long term illness with those I've lost in my immediate
family, my father, mother, and now brother.  In fact, all died so suddenly and
unexpectedly, that I've wondered, what is the karma in this for me?

In so many ways, your lost brother seems like such a more difficult loss to
deal with, and bringing that question of the value of life... he is still
there, but he isn't.  In my grieving for my brother, that is a place I come
back to, though, in a different way.  My brother isn't in this world anymore,
but who he was, or what he would say to me if he could, is still part of me.

Thanks for sharing with me, Cheryl.

The other Sheryl :)

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:54:55 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: List Changes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Cheryl, Psyberians...

In a message dated 99-01-08 09:18:50 EST, you write:

<<
 It's been on the tip of my keystroke to ask if anyone on this list is
 getting a PhD based on his/her "observation of" of the list. >>

Not I, Cheryl, the ivory tower for 3 years was enough for me!  And, doing that
would not feel ethical to me anyway, at least without notifying every single
poster.

When I was contributing to Psyber-L fairly regularly a couple of years ago (I
think?), in researching on-line communication, I did run across a study
printed in an on-line journal that was written by a member of Psyber-L.  This
member included communications from Psyber-L in the study, and I was able to
track who said what and how it was interpreted in the study from Psyber-L
archives.

I've had a vague feeling of guilt (?) or maybe the feeling could better be
described as dis-ease for not posting that I'd discovered this to Psyber-L.  I
don't know if the author's study got permission from those whose postings were
used, or from Walter, etc.  Also, I was new to listserv posting, sort of a
turnip who fell off the truck!?!

Personally, after discovering that study, I became increasingly conscious that
what I wrote could be used in ways that I might not want, so I became more
cautious about what/how I wrote, especially in a public forum.

I hope this knowledge does not limit anyone's posting to Psyber-L.  The
changes Walter is making to limit public access to the archives seems like a
good move to me.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:54:52 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: CMC?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Cheryl :)

In a message dated 99-01-08 09:18:25 EST, you write:

<< P.S. What is CMC? >>

It stands for Computer-Mediated Communication.  Sorry I didn't explain it more
completely, because I think using terms other people aren't familiar with
muddies communication that can already be confusing!

I have a home page that explains it a little more completely.  I haven't had
much time to work on the page, and it's so rudimentary that I hesitate to
mention it, but it's at:

http://members.aol.com/CMCPsych/index.html

Maybe I should just say that the page is *in process*  !

Sheryl :)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:09:28 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: List Changes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Yikes, Walter!  After just posting about my discovery of the study I found!

In a message dated 99-01-08 12:25:30 EST, you write:

<< | The list is an environment in which its participants can
 | experiment and learn from experience about the scope of online
 | interaction for ethical psychological depth work.  Psyber-L is
 | forum for individual experiential research, it is requested that
 | the list is not used for academic or other research.

 The tradition that "you own your words" also applies here.  I am not at
 university. If anyone were doing the sort of thing you fear, it would be
 highly unethical. >>

I just read this, and of course agree completely.  How long has this been on
the list description?  I discovered the study in Jan.-April, 1997.  Was your
statement referring to academic research in the description then?

If so, I feel even a little more dis-eased with myself for not posting to
Psyber-L directly about it!

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:48:35 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Gender and Flame Wars
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Loretta,

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...I have to say...if you had done that on a
list that I was a part of I would be furious. Did you ever reveal to the
list that you had been playing a game with them?

Oh dear again - are you trustworthy comes to mind. Thnkas for sharing
that however, that at least lays some foundation for your honesty.

Yipes....

Ain't this interesting folks?

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:43:28 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re; List Changes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

Thnaks for responding to my concerns. I know I've raised this sort of
questions before although not so direct so I appreciate your response. I
am very surprised to read Sheryl's statement today about discovering a
study based on Psyber-L. Did you know of this? Are you surprised?

Sheryl - I'd like to know more. Thanks for sharing that with the group.
Without the agreement of the poarticipants, I too, think it's quite
unethical.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:14:43 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Charles' Suggestion
In-Reply-To:  <369620E2.BB@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,

Charles made an attempt to structure the on-line conflict between JoaAnne
and Julienne, and the whole list. He suggested a different conflict
exploration and resolution list under "un umbrella" of Psyber- list. It was
supposed to play  his game variant of Hermann Hesse's  Glass Bead Game. The
suggestion called forth great inspiration and  much posts on the list. The
discussion on the GBD(Glass Bead Game) began  sometimes at he end of May
1998.I wish that somebody else would esplain more accurate than me, what
was going on here last summer.

Below is one of first posts about the conflict resolution and GBD:

"Julienne, Anita, Dolores, Simon, all:

"A while back, after the idea of ping-pong had come up on the list in
Julienne's fantasy post, and she and Anita had had an exchange including
Julienne's remarks about ping-pong being a good game to play "where one can
get rid of aggression without really hurting anyone", and I'd talked a
little about my own game I guess, and how it might be an interesting tool
to use in conflict resolution, Anita wrote:

:: I would like to recommend Charles' game instead of the ping-
:: pong. It is the most interesting game I have ever played. There is
:: no winners, no losers, all players are winners in some or other
:: way.

Thank you for saying that, incidentally, Anita: what a beautiful compliment.

A little later, no doubt after I'd talked some more about my games, Dolores
wrote:

:: The glass bead game intriques me, because thinking about it, I
:: can't see the point of a game where there is no winner, even tic
:: tac toe brings out the worst in me. There has to be a winner or
:: there is no point in my playing. I can take defeat, but its the
:: competition that enthralls me. Its never a case for me that its not
:: the winning but how you play the game. For me its always both,
:: and I'm not above cheating. The glass bead game is a game of
:: intellectual one upmanship, even if you protest it is not.

LOL Dolores, fine paragraph: you had me howling.  And I'm delighted you'd
like to participate in our games, always assuming they happen.

And then some time later still, after I'd talked some *more* more about my
games, and ping-pong had also been batted across the table any number of
times, Simon -- who had I think been mentioning David Bohm and his system
of Dialogues while chatting with Judith, got hold of a copy of Bohm's
little book on the subject, and started dipping into it and posting quotes
from it, and in his second post said, "Note the ping-pong reference!"

*

Now if we'd been playing a HipBone Game, and Julienne had played
"ping-pong" as the first move -- or even better perhaps, if Anita's quote
above had been the first move, since it includes the idea of win-win
games... with "ping-pong" as the move title...

And if Dolores had played "glass bead game" as the second move, with *her*
quote above as the content of her move, claiming links between the two
moves because (a) both ping-pong and the GBG are games (b) ping-pong unlike
the GBG is honest and up-front about the aggressive nature of play...

Then Simon's "Note the ping-pong reference!" -- which I'm sure had some
excitement and delight to it, not to mention a note of synchronicity --
would have taken the form of a move called "Bohm" or "Dialogue", his move
content could have been these two paragraphs from David Bohm's book:

::  Discussion is almost like a ping-pong game, where people are
::  batting the ideas back and forth and the object of the game is to
::  win or to get points for yourself. Possibly you will take up
::  somebody else's ideas to back up your own - you may agree
::  with some and disagree with others - but the basic point is to
::  win the game. That's very frequently the case in a discussion.

::  In dialogue, however, nobody is trying to win. Everybody wins
::  if anybody wins. There is a different sort of spirit to it. In a
::  dialogue, there is no attempt to gain points, or to make your
::  particular view prevail. Rather, whenever any mistake is
::  discovered on the part of anybody, everybody gains. It's a
::  situation called win-win, whereas the other game is win-lose - if I
::  win, you lose. But a dialogue is something more of a common
::  participation, in which we are not playing a game against each
::  other, but *with* each other. In a dialogue, everybody wins.

and he'd be claiming links to "ping-pong" and Anita's quote (i) because
both mentioned ping-pong and (ii) because both talked about win-win games,
and also (iii) to Dolores' quote because Bohm's description of discussion
fits Dolores' sense that all games are forms of one upmanship soooo nicely.

*

And that, my friends, is as good an example as I could wish for of the way
the games go, of the way they can "concentrate" conversation, of the way
they allow different points of view to play against each other and yet hang
together -- and of the sense of patterning that emerges, and the excitement
of suddenly seeing a move, and so on.

Really nice, and a warm round of applause to Julienne, Anita, Dolores,
Simon and David Bohm...

*

I've met and "dialogued" with Lee Nichol, Simon -- and Saral Bohm, David's
wife, inscribed my copy of David's book *Causality and Chance in Modern
Physics* with David's last words to her, spoken very shortly before he died:

::  It's tantalizing -- I feel that I am on the edge of something.
--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>"


I think, that we all were on the edge of something. It was great
disappointment, when Julienne lastly refused to participate. Oh, those days!

Best to you
Anita








anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:13:01 -0700
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Gender and flame wars
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Loretta and all,

I finally am drawn out of my period of psyberspace silence.  Just to
clarify this for others on the list, the period of silence has to do
with a VERY busy life as an educator as semester's end approaches.  For
those who follow the JUNG@laplaza postings, you will have noticed a
significant pull-back from participation there as well.  Perhaps the
"season" and the lack of sunshine has a lot to do with this as well.  As
I write this, the temperature is about -30 celcius with a strong breeze
which is making it feel more like -50+.  Ah, to live in the northern
climes <smile>.

Loretta,

> I wanted to share with you an experiment I did when I first joined the net.
> It is not scientific by any means, just something I did to see the reactions.

Thanks for being upfront about the experiment here with us.  Did you
ever share this information about the "dual citizenship" with the group
following your experiment?  I would think that such a sharing would
"teach" a lot about gender and communication dynamics.  Not sharing and
publishing the results verges on the unethical.

I do realise that not using people's names nor the name of the group
from which the study was done in order to protect identities sort of
gives one more freedom here that keeps legalistically within the domaine
of "ethical."  However ...

Robert

PS Thanks for drawing me out of quietness (male responding to female
rather than male to a female initiated thread ... for your research)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:26:58 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>
Subject:      Re: Gender and Flame Wars
In-Reply-To:  <36967D33.24C0@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Loretta,
>
>Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...I have to say...if you had done that on a
>list that I was a part of I would be furious. Did you ever reveal to the
>list that you had been playing a game with them?


Cheryl,

It wasn't a game. It was a sincere attempt to find out how gender would
affect me online.  I have been heavily discriminated against for my gender
since childhood, especially because of my IQ, which is in the top 99.9%.
When I came to the Internet, I was so tired of facing that discrimination,
I really needed to know if this new medium was all it was cracked up to be.
It was touted as a place where the mind was dominent and that was what
mattered most.  Obviously, that projection was wrong, at least to a cetain
extent.  I am not the only one who has done this type of experiment, and
you aren't the only one who has reacted this way.

Bruckman noted female MUDders report they are often "besieged with
attention," including unwanted sexual advances. Many people, both male and
female, enjoy the attention paid to female characters.  Male players will
often log on as female characters and behave suggestively, further
encouraging sexual advances.  Pavel Curtis has noted that the most
promiscuous and sexually aggressive women are usually played by men.  If
you meet a character named Fabulous HotBabe, she is almost certainly a he
in real life.

In 1985, Lindsy Van Gelder published, in Ms. magazine, the case of "Joan,"
who appeared to be a disabled single older woman on Compuserve's "Between
the Sexes" conference.  Avoiding face to face  contact, Joan developed
intimate relationships with other women . After several years, Joan was
discovered to be a middle-aged male psychiatrist, "Alex".  His
"cross-dressing" shook up the many women and men and led them to be more
suspicious and wary of computerized interactions.

I can see why, after several years, these women with 'intimate'
relationships would be upset.  However, I made no attempt to foster any
type of relationship with anyone on the list. I am not bothered by people
who experiment with gender or other roles online.  There are many sites and
lists which are devoted just to roleplaying.  I have seen people grow on
other lists, not devoted to role playing, as they experiement with a 'new'
concept of themselves, then actually grow into that newness, whether it be
a career or something of a more personal nature.  I don't consider them
less genuine because of their role playing.  For instance, if someone
desires to be a writer, one way to learn is to hang out with writers.  If
this person is just beginning, does that make them dishonest?  Learning
from each other is a precious experience.

Because our gender is dominent in our life, my need to experience being a
'male' was genuine.  I had so many questions. The experiment led me to many
conclusions which I would not have been able to formulate without that
feedback.  I don't regret doing it, nor do I feel I harmed anyone. I simply
observed what was a pattern of behavior and got to feel both sides for the
very first time.

I've only been here a few days, but have noted a certain nervousness in the
posts which (I may be wrong) seem to be out of place.  Trust begins within
ourselves, and in Cyberspace, where we are never sure who the other people
are, it seems that we should never 'trust' in their goodness or identity,
yet Netizens communicate freely despite that lack.

While I do not desire to be male (I'm having too much fun being female), I
think this experience was a good one for me, without harming anyone else. I
have never revealed their names, their posts, the list nor used any of that
information in an article. That would have been unethical. What I did do
with the information was to study more about styles of communication, to
contemplate where I wanted to go with my writing, and to better define
myself as a person by deciding what behavior patterns I was comfortable
with and what I would not tolerate.  Boundaries were a weak point of mine
and this helped me greatly.

I would like to hear more of your views as to why you stated your concerns
as you did.  Why would you be furious?  Is not part of exploring our psyche
in Cyberspace the very freedom to recreate ourselves in ways we have felt
inside, but have not been able to experience in 'real' life?

Lore



Loretta Kemsley
President

Women Artists and Writers International
Publisher of MOONDANCE: Celebrating Creative Women
Our vision, our wisdom, our strength
http://www.moondance.org
For information about WAWI: mailto:wawi@moondance.org

Writer, Editor and Editorial Coach
Personal Portfolio: Women's Writings
http://www.moondance.org/lore/portfolio.htm

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:37:08 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>
Subject:      Re: Gender and flame wars
In-Reply-To:  <369682ED.64ABEB26@sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 For
>those who follow the JUNG@laplaza postings, you will have noticed a
>significant pull-back from participation there as well.  Perhaps the
>"season" and the lack of sunshine has a lot to do with this as well.  As
>I write this, the temperature is about -30 celcius with a strong breeze
>which is making it feel more like -50+.  Ah, to live in the northern
>climes <smile>.

I'm not on that list, but I too am suffering from spring fever in the dead
of winter.  So warm out, it's hard to be typing away, but type I must for I
am working on an article about online resources for genealogists.  Just
taking a break to check my mail.

>Thanks for being upfront about the experiment here with us.  Did you
>ever share this information about the "dual citizenship" with the group
>following your experiment?  I would think that such a sharing would
>"teach" a lot about gender and communication dynamics.  Not sharing and
>publishing the results verges on the unethical.

I'm not doing research here, for publication or for my own use, although
discussion of any kind tends to spark story ideas for a writer.  Walter's
mention of gender wars touched on an old passion of mine, which is to sort
out what is gender and what is soul and/or intellect.  All closely
intertwined but not the same.

As I said to Cheryl, I didn't use the info to publish.  Some of the people
on the list knew before I did it, and it was done with the permission of
the list owners. Others learned afterwards, and it did prompt a lively
discussion. I would like to think that the people on the list learned as
much as I did, but I will never know. I did make several contacts (during
the post discussion) who have become good friends.

Lore

Loretta Kemsley
President

Women Artists and Writers International
Publisher of MOONDANCE: Celebrating Creative Women
Our vision, our wisdom, our strength
http://www.moondance.org
For information about WAWI: mailto:wawi@moondance.org

Writer, Editor and Editorial Coach
Personal Portfolio: Women's Writings
http://www.moondance.org/lore/portfolio.htm

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:13:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Teri Shelley <c21teri@AOL.COM>
Subject:      1st Cousins

Dear Psyber-L group,

I felt this was an appropriate time to introduce myself to the group though I have been a member for a couple of months.  My intentions were not to be a phantom member, only that this is my first experience with an online group and I wanted to take my time in discovering what the group was about, proper etiquette,etc.

I have enjoyed reading the various posting and found many of them very insightful.  Although, I must admit at times I felt uncomfortable, as though eavesdropping on others conversations.

There has been recent discussion about *knowing* who the members are so I thought I would take a moment and tell you a little about my world.  I'm 38, live in California, a Realtor, I have 2 sons (ages 17 &11), been married almost 20 years, live in the country and have quite a managerie of animals including 5 horses, 4 dogs, a goat, cow and cat.

And yes, I am Sheryl's 1st cousin.  As Sheryl explained we were able to get to know each other through the internet. I can not begin to tell you the importance she now plays in my life, the bond that we share.  I can not imagine not having her in my life now!  The relationship that has developed between us has made me so aware of the possibilities and power of the internet.  We are seeing the internet in it's infancy and I am anxious to see the effects in the world, expecially in relationships and the psych.  It is all very fascinating to me.

Teri

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:08:28 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Liron Eliasov
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Welcome Liron Eliasov

Good to have you on board!  You are the 6th person to join in as many days after
a period of relative quiet.  You have just missed some exchanges about CMC,
academic research and identity online.  I hope you pop over to the web and check
them out, as i think it will interest you and it also sounds like you have a lot
to offer!

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

There are a few security barriers to jump over to get to the archives, but after
the cookies have been planted on you machine its easy access.

The ethos on this, both in its stated purpose and to a large extent in practice
combines and integrates the personal sharing, the forming of relationships and
so on with the reflective process of learning about online communication. As far
as i know that is somewhat unique the only list that I know that is self
reflective in that way is Netdynam, on which I used to be one of those silent
non-contributors. I have not been on it for about a year, but I have a warm
feeling about it!

The topics you mention are right on target for our dialogues, and I am sure you
can learn stuff here that is useful for your teaching.  Psyber-L is definitely a
private and confidential list however that does not stop us learning or writing
about what we learn.  I am in the midst of two bits of writing:  One is called
Psyberspace, a sort overview of the psyche in cyberspace, another about the
roles of online leadership, these are the sorts of things i put up on my web
site and there are drafts already there.

One of the other things that has been grabbing my interest in the last month or
so is collaboration online, has anyone here used the net to co-author writing?

Enough for now... this is a short post to welcome Liron.  Your intro Liron as
well as all the others in the last few days gives us plenty to keep going with.


Walter


~~~


Here is your intro posted to the list:


~~~quote~~~


I am a graduate student of clinical psychology and I also tutor first year BA
students in the "Computer Mediated Communication" course of the Communication
department.

Among the subjects I am interested in are:
Communication patterns in virtual organizations/groups, on-line therapeutic
applications and understanding the psychological effects of the internet era
on the individual and larger social systems..

I wish for this to be an exciting and stimulating experience, though I first
plan to lurk in the shadows of inexperience.........

Liron.

--

"Do not fear slowness, only fear the stopping"

(qi gong teachings)



~~~end quote~~~

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:36:33 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Gender and Flame Wars
In-Reply-To:  <v03020936b2bc204a4d89@[207.155.25.38]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello President,

Nice to meet you! I've never known any president. We have here in  Finland
only one. He is the President of the Republic. Joking aside!

At 13:26 8.1.1999 -0800, you wrote:

>I've only been here a few days, but have noted a certain nervousness in the
>posts which (I may be wrong) seem to be out of place.

To my mind a mild nervousness is a natural phenomenon in an established
group, when new members are joining. It is not bad, everybody only keeps
ears open sharper than usual. So it is also in the real life. I don't make
a great difference between RL and VL. Life here and there is  to me same
writing, besides there (in VL) I must write in English. I am always sitting
by my computer and writing. What do you mean that our posts seem to be out
of place?

As to the gender and authors, it not a new phenemonon, that the female
authors write sometimes under a male pseudonym. I have an acquaintance who
after four novels published a novel as a man. She was very amazed how
different the reviews were in comparison with those she had got as a
female. They were more analytical, as if the critics had taken her more
seriously as a man. I think, that it was not a great suprise. I have
another acquaintance, an well-known male writer who published a novel under
a female pseudonym. But because he has so original writing style, the
critics became suspicious. They identifyed him by the style.
The original style is very personal thing, its roots are deep in the
personality, in the unconsciouness.  You cannot change it as if you changed
your cloths.

BTW. Where  do you live? Have you children, cats, dogs?

Best wishes
Anita








anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:41:27 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Gender wars and role playing
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Loretta

I'll have to thinkmore about your gender experiment. What bothers me is
the deliberate deception although I guess I understand at least a little
about wanting to try out different roles and how that wouldn't really
work unless people did not know. Still...it bothers. I think it is a
different situation with a beginning writer. Of course you would want to
hang out with others writers...but if you pretended that you were an
accomplished writer when you weren't then the deception enters. I want to
be able to trust in the 'goodnes and identity' of those who I am
communicating with whether it be f2f or online. If there is deliberate
deception going on that trust is in danger of being destroyed. Yes, of
course trust begins within ourselves but it's also a two-way street, it's
a BETWEEN activity, a relational activity and it can be damaged by
(primarily) deception. Psyber-L is not and has not been a place of
deception. That's not something I want in my environment, I realize that
in many places that occurs on the net and sites dedicated to role-playing
are are different category since the participants know the foundational
context. So that's why I responded as I did. I hope this clarifies for
you where I'm coming from. I understand your motivations... it still
leaves me feeling uneasy however.

Cheryl
wincing a bit but still pondering

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:58:21 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         renata verschraegen <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      introducing myself
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I subscribed a few days ago, read the posts about role playing etc.
and now would like to introduce myself.

My name is Renata, I'm a woman of 40 years old and I live in Belgium.
I have no degrees, no formal education. I'm interested in this group
because I have a psyche like everyone else, I suppose.

Some things in the mails I don't understand, but I hope I can ask.



My two main interests:

- Personality changes caused by extreme grief, pain etc...

- Interaction between Net life and "real" life



renata
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:06:31 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         renata verschraegen <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Gender wars and role playing
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---Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

>

> I'll have to thinkmore about your gender experiment. What bothers me
is

> the deliberate deception

I want to

> be able to trust in the 'goodnes and identity' of those who I am

> communicating with whether it be f2f or online. If there is deliberate

> deception going on that trust is in danger of being destroyed. Yes, of

> course trust begins within ourselves but it's also a two-way street,
it's

> a BETWEEN activity, a relational activity and it can be damaged by

> (primarily) deception.



Are there rules and/or agreements about this in this group? Because
you can only start thinking about trusting people in a certain
environment when you know the rules, I think.



renata
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:53:36 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Authenticity and psyche

On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:06:31 -0800, renata verschraegen <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

Hi Renata,  Good to hear from you.  A few months back we had some discussion
here about 'authenticity'.  If we are using psyche to mean soul, I don't quite
see how the soul can develop, manifest, be realized in other than the deepest
sincerity.
  This does not preclude 'playfulness'.  In the past year here this has
occurred in a sort of dramatized manifestation of various parts of our
individual parts.  At one time we took a stab at enacting  the 'psychodrama'
of Eros and Psyche.  Like the Glass Bead Game, this didn't quite come off.
   As far as I know all participants on the List were clear that this was
a form of soulful play.  No attempt to deceive was intended.
   Walter, I'd like your input regarding the relationship between psyche
and authenticity. (Also anyone elses, of course.)

   Again welcome, Renata.

   Nancy

>---Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:
>
>>
>
>> I'll have to thinkmore about your gender experiment. What bothers me
>is
>
>> the deliberate deception
>
>I want to
>
>> be able to trust in the 'goodnes and identity' of those who I am
>
>> communicating with whether it be f2f or online. If there is deliberate
>
>> deception going on that trust is in danger of being destroyed. Yes, of
>
>> course trust begins within ourselves but it's also a two-way street,
>it's
>
>> a BETWEEN activity, a relational activity and it can be damaged by
>
>> (primarily) deception.
>
>
>
>Are there rules and/or agreements about this in this group? Because
>you can only start thinking about trusting people in a certain
>environment when you know the rules, I think.
>
>
>
>renata
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:07:37 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         renata verschraegen <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Authenticity and psyche
MIME-Version: 1.0
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---Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM> wrote:

> A few months back we had some discussion

> here about 'authenticity'.  If we are using psyche to mean soul, I
don't quite

> see how the soul can develop, manifest, be realized in other than
the deepest

> sincerity.

>   This does not preclude 'playfulness'.  In the past year here this
has

> occurred in a sort of dramatized manifestation of various parts of our

> individual parts.  At one time we took a stab at enacting  the
'psychodrama'

> of Eros and Psyche.  Like the Glass Bead Game, this didn't quite
come off.

>    As far as I know all participants on the List were clear that
this was

> a form of soulful play.

Like when I was playing "cowboys & indians" with my brother ... I was
never scared when he tied me to a tree and threatened to torture me
because I knew he "really" was my brother.

In a group like this it's important for me to be able to presume that
everyone "really" is who he/she says to be. I don't believe you can be
totally authentic when you play a role, because it's not really you.
When I pretend to be a man, I will not really behave as a man, I will
behave as I think a man behaves. This has a strange effect on
interaction, I think.

renata
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:34:07 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>
Subject:      Re: Gender and Flame Wars
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.6.32.19990109113633.007bb610@megabaud.fi>
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Anita wrote:

>To my mind a mild nervousness is a natural phenomenon in an established
>group, when new members are joining. (snip) What do you mean that our
>posts seem to be out of place?

To me, Cyberspace is a great adventure, where one never knows for sure who
they are dealing with and must proceed accordingly.  I came to this list at
a time when there was a predominence of posts concerning the intentions of
other people, such as those concerning people doing research via the list.
Although I ascribe to caution in doing business via the Net, part of the
fun on a personal level is the acknowleged certainty I will be meeting with
people who are experimenting with their idenities. That is the wonder of
it, it is sooooo fun to just be an idea out there in the ethers.  I and my
fellow travelers can become whatever part of ourselves we want to become.

And what does it matter?  We are all just reflections and pieces of each
other and the whole. The greatest thing I've learned from Cyber space is
how connected we all are. It is mostly the external things which make us feel
separate. Thus the nervousness here seemed different than I am finding
elsewhere and something I did not expect.
>
>As to the gender and authors, it not a new phenemonon, that the female
>authors write sometimes under a male pseudonym. I have an acquaintance who
>after four novels published a novel as a man. She was very amazed how
>different the reviews were in comparison with those she had got as a
>female. They were more analytical, as if the critics had taken her more
>seriously as a man. I think, that it was not a great suprise.

As a news and investigative journalist and business writer, I am very good
at writing pieces which are either gender neutral or predominate with male
language patterns.  It is interesting to watch the reactions of those who
don't realize I am a woman until after they have absorbed my writing.  Even
though I have never hidden my gender in my work, a few have obviously felt
my writing style was in itself a fraud, yet it is only what the profession
demands.  (When I write for women, my style changes completely)

Men are taken more seriously as writers, as elsewhere, which is a shame. I
believe it to be because the profession has long been dominated by men at
the top, thus male subject matters and styles are the accepted norm and
women's subjects and styles are 'the other.'  I read an interesting article
on "Chick Flicks" (a term I hate). Susan Sarandon made the point that each
time a movie is released which deals with life from a women's point of
view, the critics are surprised it is a hit, and she asked when are they
going to stop calling each film an oddity as hits go and admit this is a
popular genre.

This isn't limited to writing, of course.  US medical schools still teach
pregnancy and other women related topics as 'abnormal.'  How good it is to
be abnormal!

>BTW. Where  do you live? Have you children, cats, dogs?

I live in Los Angeles, California, a native to both, and I love the climate
here. I grew up on a small farm, traveled with my father's carnival, was
raised as Mormon (my paternal grandparents were polygamists who were close
to Brigham Young), and have never lived without animals as an important
part of my life.  Two horses, four cats and a rooster presently live with
me, as does one of my daughters (two total, ages 33 and 30) and my 2 1/2
year old grandson.

Lore

Loretta Kemsley
President

Women Artists and Writers International
Publisher of MOONDANCE: Celebrating Creative Women
Our vision, our wisdom, our strength
http://www.moondance.org
For information about WAWI: mailto:wawi@moondance.org

Writer, Editor and Editorial Coach
Personal Portfolio: Women's Writings
http://www.moondance.org/lore/portfolio.htm

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:57:03 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>
Subject:      Re: Gender wars and role playing
In-Reply-To:  <369786B7.1257@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Loretta
>
>I'll have to thinkmore about your gender experiment. What bothers me is
>the deliberate deception although I guess I understand at least a little
>about wanting to try out different roles and how that wouldn't really
>work unless people did not know. Still...it bothers.

Cheryl,

Thanks for your thoughts.  I understand better now and will keep your
concerns in mind.

When this experiment was discussed on the list after it was complete, the
other writers were first surprised but then freely contributed more ideas
to the stew. All writers have pretended to be someone other than self at
some point to get the story, so they weren't terribly uncomfortable.
Besides, the posts were not about them and not personal.  They were written
ahead of time, reviewed by some list members prior to posting, and
concerned how to write a medical article.

Writers are in the habit of pushing the limits for the thought unknown.
This is what makes their writing genuine and what attracts their readers.
When writing, I am always looking for the "Uncreated Moment," that magical
moment which will enhance the experience of my reader.  The purpose of
writing is adding value to what belongs to the common culture. This occurs
as the writer reads, experiences and assimilates the culture, whether the
culture is her own or that of another. Thus, playing with myself and
observing human behaviour is ingrained, as it is wiht all writers.  We are
mere observers, reporting what we see to the world, whether we are covering
politics, writing poems, or compiling fiction.  Perhaps this is why we feel
differently.

However, just because I am a writer, does not mean I am unethical or that I
am here to write about this group.  Unless I am doing investigative news
(usually about government), I don't write hostile pieces and have never,
even in investigative news, written about any person without their
knowledge.  I don't need to.  There are too many people willing to give
permission to be quoted. So if this is what is worrying you, rest assured.
If you still have doubts, take a look at my portfolio. I think it speaks
for itself.

A writer, yes, a human being with foibles too...

Lore



Lore

Loretta Kemsley
President

Women Artists and Writers International
Publisher of MOONDANCE: Celebrating Creative Women
Our vision, our wisdom, our strength
http://www.moondance.org
For information about WAWI: mailto:wawi@moondance.org

Writer, Editor and Editorial Coach
Personal Portfolio: Women's Writings
http://www.moondance.org/lore/portfolio.htm

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:07:51 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Authenticity and psyche

On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:07:37 -0800, renata verschraegen <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>---Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM> wrote:
>
>> A few months back we had some discussion
>
>> here about 'authenticity'.  If we are using psyche to mean soul, I
>don't quite
>
>> see how the soul can develop, manifest, be realized in other than
>the deepest
>
>> sincerity.
>
>>   This does not preclude 'playfulness'.  In the past year here this
>has
>
>> occurred in a sort of dramatized manifestation of various parts of our
>
>> individual parts.  At one time we took a stab at enacting  the
>'psychodrama'
>
>> of Eros and Psyche.  Like the Glass Bead Game, this didn't quite
>come off.
>
>>    As far as I know all participants on the List were clear that
>this was
>
>> a form of soulful play.
>
>Like when I was playing "cowboys & indians" with my brother ... I was
>never scared when he tied me to a tree and threatened to torture me
>because I knew he "really" was my brother.

N: Yes.  Pretty much like the above.  Still I do understand your reservations
below and will try to address them.
>
>In a group like this it's important for me to be able to presume that
>everyone "really" is who he/she says to be. I don't believe you can be
>totally authentic when you play a role, because it's not really you.
>When I pretend to be a man, I will not really behave as a man, I will
>behave as I think a man behaves. This has a strange effect on
>interaction, I think.
>
>renata

N: (Apologies to Walter in advance for not recalling the exact current
introductory guidelines.)
   I got my first Internet capable computer at the end of last Feb.  I
up the link to this List from the Carl Jung San Francisco Training Institute
site.  Part of Carl Jung's believes include the fragmentation of the psyche.
This can be explored (and in some cases 'healed') by a process of 'active
imagination'.
    To put this in the context of your play with your brother, I would
suppose that a part of your brother felt like a 'wild indian' (or a cowboy?)
and a part of you sometimes felt like a hostage or captive.  Again supposing,
the two of you were giving acceptance to those feelings in yourselves and
one another through your play.  By giving acceptance, you were freeing
these parts to become part of the whole and to mature into other, perhaps
more socially accepted forms on the adult level.
     The trust you and your brother felt for one another was based on many
things (probably in part the attitudes of your parents toward one another
and the two of you.)  It didn't happen over night.
     I would suppose it would be somewhat the same here.  I thought Anita
made a good point when she said that there is a certain wariness whenever
new members are introduced into an ongoing group (either online or off).
I guess I'd call that a sort of 'healthy paranoia' design to protect our
tender souls.
      Teri seemed to me to be expressing much the same thing from the
'newcomer's' point of view.
      How much trust grows between and among us remains to be seen.  I
think it was Walter's intent with the recent changes to create a safer
 container (List)where more trust could grow than before.  Whether this
will occur remains to be seen.  We as a list are not what we were, but are
in a stage of becoming what we will be.  Old and new alike will be enduring
some tensions of this becoming.

    I wonder where this puts us in the myth of Amor and Psyche.  In different
places, I guess.  Speculating: I am perhaps on my way back to the ferry trying
to imagine what I will do if the ferry man has raised his rates beyond the
one coin I brought with me.  Cheryl might have just arrived in the 'monster's' mansion having been sold
out by her 'father'.  The ants (Stephan) are hilled up for the winter waiting
to see what the spring brings.  Our eagle (Robert)is part-time soaring
about and part-time fixed in 'nobility' on a precious coin.  Our tower
(Walter)is standing firm, waiting for Psyche's chaos to subside enough
so she can hear his advice.

    You are right, Renata, this is a very strange place, a place of the
imagination.

    Nancy
    (Ducking out now for fear Judith [our Prop Manager] has brought a
supply of tomatoes.)


>_________________________________________________________
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>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:42:09 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: List Changes
In-Reply-To:  <36961F55.2545@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,

You ask..
> are we a part of any University-based  project for you or anyone on this
list?
> You know this has been a question  for me all along...just how is this list
> "being used" by all those participants who don't participate here?

> At what level are all these long-time silent people "participating"?

I guess that the latter description probably includes me, so I'll reply to
your
completely legitimate query, though my feelings are probably fairly
particular to me.

In some ways, maybe I do have an 'academic' (ish) interest in the life
and evolution of this list (although with a more sociological
rather than psychological bent ).
However, I am certainly not studying you all like
bacteria in the test tube. If it is a study its an experiential,
authors perspective rather than that of a scientist.

I would not write a description of the events on this list
in any detail, or quote any of you without asking permission first.

To be completely honest here I did come pretty close to quoting Nancy saying
"  Nancy
   Who has been thinking of you All fondly this week."
in order to make a point in an internal work memo ( I work
as a web developer at a non-academic company ). But in the event
the memo never got sent, so no harm done.

This discussion reminds me of something maybe I should have known,
anyway, I'll move with more caution in future!

As to your question about what level we are particpating
I also get the feeling that the list is terribly university and
PHD studded. Also, but not suprisingly it seems that many people
here know a whole bunch about psyche soul and psychology etc...
so whilst that is interesting for me to read, I don't know a lot
or have a lot particularly beneficial to say so I (usually) prefer to
listen.

Maybe I am listening and respecting the silences. ?
--

:-)

               _
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
                ( miles )

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:42:16 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <36961F55.2545@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Things are changing so fluid and exciting on this list
at the moment yes? No boredom anymore I hope.

?

Cheryl,

You asked some questions and I'll try to reply to them.

.. But first an untied knot that I need to attend to, though it
makes me feel a bit silly to do so.

You see (entirely of my own doing) my psybernet persona has
been a feeling more than a little silly and a bit shy to post
again to this list.

A (good) while ago, I wrote a couple of posts...
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?S2=psyber-l&X=6E7A7260D70D24EA67&q
=four+post&s=psyche
and you were the only person to respond.
.Thanks for that - its always good to get a reply, and esp good
when you put some effort into your own post !

However, I was a bit taken aback with your reply, didn't know what to say...
didn't say anything... sort of, skulked off back into the shadows a little.

You wrote:
>all right miles, you're a bit funny as in haha and [weird]...
<snip>
>and are you stoned frequently as it sounds you
>might be but then it sounded like charles was drunk when he told walter
>what a rock he is and okay this is one way of writing and not bad either,
>a poem unto itself and of course take time for a breATH AND THEN GO BACK
>UNDERWATER CAUSE IT'S RAINING LIKE HELL OUTSIDE.
>
>CHERYL
>ps giggle = wired stuff -wierd
>
>capiche?


My own sense of propriety told me that i was *way* off subject with my posts,
and I found the 'capiche' at the end a little bit threatening, as if you
were saying 'I've called your bluff' very nicely but 'please stay in the
conversation
if you choose to post on this list'. Maybe it was my own (overactive)
imagination..
Probably. I started to think about whether I should take my interest in
politics
elsewhere (I should). I..

Most of all I was struck by your being able to tell that I was stoned at
the time
that I wrote the post (I'm not at the moment but I was at the time).

In answer to your question I am not stoned *frequently*,
rather *occasionally*, I like to think when I have time and it won't affect
things too much.

You were completely right but it was a bit of a shock to me, not to have
the obvious pointed out, but more because I would have thought
that my writing, esp. to people who could not know my style too
well, would not so blatantly reveal that fact.

In explanation, I have a brother who *is* stoned frequently,
and who also works as a writer. I almost start to think
he has gotten to the stage where he writes better in that state - certainly
he gets a bit more frantic and obsessed with his stories than he might
otherwise be. Perhaps the drug helps him maintain his profilic output
and generally obsessive countenance. (learning even as I write)
I know its not a good thing, for him, but that is not really the issue.

Basically I just needed to reply.. and admit the truth of
what you say. First to say 'yes,  bang on, your right, I was stoned'
but more to the point  "thanks for noticing!"

Shook me up quite a bit. Maybe it connected with some shadow forces in my
own psyche, but well, I've taken time for a breath, stepped outside so to
speak.
I've been able to look at my own state 'under the influence' again...
I've realised I dont want to be in that state as much.. and become
more aware of the irrational and emotional pull of the drug to have
me immerse myself in its madness, and allow me to feel like an inspired
(and somehwat obsessed) human being for a while.
Correspondingly I've set myself a regime of 'not more than once in a moon'
(thats 13 times a year) which I've stuck to since then... but anyway, thanks.
If anybody else has opinions on the subject I am not averse
to suggestion or criticism.

Now, of course, all the 'newbies' (no derogation intened)
will think of me as 'that guy with a drug problem'. Heaven forbid!

But wtf.

Anyway, you ask..

actually, I'll put my answers to your much more recent questions
in a seperate post since this is already too long.


---------------_-----------------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/

  miles@mail.com
  http://www.webolution.com.au/miles

----------------------------------

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:45:58 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      == Quoting earlier emails when replying ~ Policy ==
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.6.32.19990110204216.007f5cc0@paradise.net.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Psyber-L,

Recently we had some discussion about Quoting other emails, ie
with the use of the  >  sign.

Please quote the minimum, or none.  About one or two lines here
and there is usually enough.  Occasionally it may be useful to
quote more, but please do so with *consciousness*.  Please delete
all the trailing material from the post you are replying to.


Here is the quote from the Psyber-L description:

http://psybernet.co.nz/pl_descript.txt


| * Quoting: Please keep quoting from earlier emails (using the >
|   sign) to a minimum.  Quote enough to put your response in
|   context. Please do not use more than two generations of quoting (>>).


I recently posted some reasons for this policy, which I will
repeat here, as well as add some:

*  Readability:
As Anita mentioned:  "I don't  want to climb over many barriers
to fetch your grains of gold."  This is the main reason as far as
I am concerned.

*  Cost:
Everything in this list is saved to disc and online for future
reference.  It costs 25c per meg per month and it is a wasted to
have endless repeats of the messages.

* Bandwidth cost:
Some people pay quite a lot for traffic and even email can
add up.

* Save trees:
Often people print a series of posts and it is unecological and
unpleasant to have several pages repeated *unnecessarily*.

* Searching:
When looking for a word or phrase it comes up too many times in
a search if there is excessive quoting. This severely limits the
*knowledge base* we have evolved to date.

* Confusion:
More than one generation of quotes can become confusing.  Please
find other ways of referring to older contributions.  Short
summaries are often effective, with a link or reference to the
post if need be.

Your care in these matters will be appreciated. Thanks.


Walter
Listowner Psyber-L









_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:18:53 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Authenticity and psyche
In-Reply-To:  <19990109170737.5131.rocketmail@send202.yahoomail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Renata,

Trust and rules!

You wrote:
> you can only start thinking about trusting people in a certain
> environment when you know the rules, I think.

There is no written rule in Psyber-L.  Here is a quote from the
description...

| * Psyber-L membership is monitored by the Listowner.  There is no
|   vetting or verification of identity.  Prospective members are
|   asked to be familiar with this file, Psyber-L.Descript, and to
|   indicate their interest in Psyber-L.

People are asked for their name, not for a "userid" or a "screen
name", so there is an overall expectation of names being
authentic.

There have been some occasions on which this matter has been
discussed and there I think there is a preference for full names
and authentic identities.  I prefer it.  Not everyone will have
the same taste.  Do you think we should be more explicit?

The reason it is not mentioned in the description is that I do
not wish to ask people to provide phone numbers etc. so that they
can be checked out.  This might put people off, it is not 100%
conclusive and a lot of work!  As there is no  absolute certainty
I do not wish to create a false sense of what is real here.

There are "norms" as well as rules, and my sense that all who
write here are who they say is very strong.  Even if it were
revealed that someone had another id or gender, then I think the
learning from that, from the shock! initially would be very
powerful, and well within the realms of "exploring the psyche".

One of the ways that the "virtual authenticity" builds is through
these discussions, through the sharing of web page url's, the
discussion of who we know in rl, and the meetings we might have
f2f.  Charles, who is absent from the list at the moment, has
become a friend and i met him in LA earlier this year, and stayed
at his house, that was a thrill!

Renata,

Belgium!

I was not too far wrong.  What languages do you speak there?



Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:43:56 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Authenticity and psyche
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1999010911542446@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

Deception and soul.

> Walter, I'd like your input regarding the relationship between psyche
> and authenticity.

I hate lies and deception, as we all do. (Identity switches on
the net may not be that exactly depending on the context.)

Strangely the unreal reveals soul!

In my psychotherapy work I come across couples who have lied,
betrayed, had affairs etc. They mistrust.  This is the bomb that
sends them into exploring the psyche, why did he do it? was it
me?  Why did I do it?

The lie is like a dream. The very nature of the hidden
behaviours, stories, thoughts and feelings when they are
understood, grasped like a dream may be grasped, create intimacy
and a more soulful approach to life, a more authentic approach.

I suppose all this indicates that the soulful thing is the
movement from the hidden to the authentic and conscious, no mean
journey.


Walter

It is late and I must go but it is great to have many posts I
don't have time to reply to!






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:27:15 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Psyche and Eros
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Wow Nancy,
The image brought tears to my eyes and a lump to my throat. Maybe I
should read my Greek myths.


Cheryl
-having just arrived in the monster's mansion
 after being sold out by my father - whew!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 07:12:00 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Miles writes...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Miles,

I have to say that I am delighted you responsed to my little poem for
you. I think I said something like this to Simon awhile back but
sometimes I'm a little too smart for my own good..so yes, I noticed. But
something for you...1) it takes one to know one and 2) I'm a very good
reader - energy does come through ones words - whatever their biological
origin. Maybe I'm being a little too obtuse here...

I don't know where you lived during the sixities but do you remember the
idea of the 'contact high'? Well, your post had a 'wave' quality to it
and I recognized it - having been stoned a few times myself and having
studied the state closely as one does under the influence. I simply
jumped into the energy of the state I was getting off the screen and
wrote the 'poem'. I've written stoned too (although not for a long, long
time - for me an occaisional toke occurs once every 3-5 years these
days...). I was disapponited that you hadn't responded becuase writing
that poem was a bit risky for me - not my usual style (how could it have
been - I was riding your energy) and it sounded a little wierd. The caps
at the end were simply becuase my finger hit the 'caps lock' by mistake
but they fit quite well with what I was saying and in the best tradition
of the BEat poets I left them in. btw, it was raining like hell outside
at the moment I wrote that. Writers use everything, no?

So thanks for responding (she wrote with a 'cat ate the canary' grin.) I
remember your posts from before and was always intrigued since you seemed
like a smart sort of fellow but you never said much. So I wondered what
you were up to...I knew it was something.

As to your political views..no more comment from me. Politics scares me
cause it's such a nasty business. I stay out of it although I notice alot
and shudder alot too.

And I think you undetrstood the 'capiche' correctly.

All the best. I hope you participate more, no matter what you post. We
don't have to just talk about psyche and soul here you know. Another one
of those norms...

Miles, you've brought tears to my eyes.. a weepy broad am I.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:15:33 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      No more boredom...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

List folks,

No more boredom...wonderful to speak your truth, as in, hey I'm bored.
I've noticed that as soon as do the energy shifts. Too bad I forget that.

Anita,

Thank you for posting Charles' suggestion. I didn't know that you all
came so close to playing a GBG and that Julienne refused. How sad. I'n
very intrigued by the game and would like to play one someday. Somehow up
till now I've felt too stupid but I see it doen't matter so much about
the intellectual content...

Simon,

I read one of the articles you posted awhile back..the one about Tantra
and Quantum..I have to think about it more..I don't know that I agree
with him so completely..yes, language has lost it's magical properties
(or rather we've lost the ability to use the magic of language) but I've
noticed that in cultures which still have that ability there is also
considerable superstition because at the same time an ability to
discriminate gets lost..because people get lost under 'under the spell'.
Any comments?...

Walter, how fun that you met Charles..I know that you like each so well..
why were you in LA?

Judith...where are you? I hope you aren't bummed out about the quoting
stuff and have gone away.

I'm on the last leg of the endless winter of painting. The refrigerator
was delivered yesterday. Two more weeks and I can move in. It's all
amazing to me that I'm making a home. Can't wait to get a dog.

:)

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:27:58 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Four Post Wonder
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Miles,

Sorry I'm so chatty this morning..my new motto is,, if you're bored, do
something. So I'm a busy little bee these days.. I just went back and
read your 'four poster' (of which there are only two, mind you) and I
realized that your 'style' reminded me of Lew Welch - do you know his
work? One of the very first and original Beat poets - they say he
committed suicide but I never quite believed it - somehow I always
thought he went to New Zealand (this is true, realy) Isn't that wierd?
If you can get a copy of his work and read some of the stuff, you'll
probably see what I mean. He really inspired me alot at one point in my
life. Writes great stuff even under the influence...

Okay, enough from me today...I've got to have breakfast.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:54:26 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         renata verschraegen <taraindreams@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Authenticity and psyche
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> learning from that, from the shock! initially would be very

> powerful, and well within the realms of "exploring the psyche".

I rethought my thoughts and tend to agree. Still, all depends on the
intimacy of relationships, on the degree of vulnerability people agree
on ... (still thinking).



> Belgium! What languages ...

Most of us speak Flemish, French and German. Having had an interpreter
for a mother, I speak English and Italian as well.

renata


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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:10:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Psyche and authenticity in Cyberspace

On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:42:16 +1300, Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM> wrote:

>Basically I just needed to reply.. and admit the truth of
>what you say. First to say 'yes,  bang on, your right, I was stoned'

N: I remember thinking...hmmm 'That's not quite the Miles I thought I was
getting to know.  Or perhaps he is just having a small tension induced attack
of the 'sillies'.  (Used to notice this phenomena on a job on Friday afternoons.)

> 'not more than once in a moon'
>(thats 13 times a year) which I've stuck to since then...

N: Sounds sensible.  Sort of like the 'menses'.  One doesn't 'bleed to death'
yet better than only once in a 'Blue Moon'.

>If anybody else has opinions on the subject I am not averse
>to suggestion or criticism.

N: Have neither suggestions or criticism, but rather a question.  How do
you feel now that you've 'fessed up?  I'm inclined to think that the remainder
of your message may answer my question. (Yes?  No?)
>
>Now, of course, all the 'newbies' (no derogation intened)
>will think of me as 'that guy with a drug problem'. Heaven forbid!

N: I am pursuing my ongoing search for authenticity.  For some time my
parameters have been a variation on the 'legal oath', i.e.  I believe it
is needful to 'tell the truth and nothing but the truth'.  I do not
necessarily believe it necessary (or even wise) to tell always the
'whole truth' (actually neither do the courts as witnesses seem to be frequently
cut off with rulings of irrelevancy).
   I feel it is important to 'take care of oneself', to preserve one's own
inner balance or centeredness and that these steps of self containment
 lead to 'soul growth' and a greater capacity for authenticity.
   I hope I am projecting and thus inacurate in my supposing about your
state of inner comfort with the group.  As you've may have gathered from
earlier posts, I feel we hear all too little from you here, Miles.

   Nancy




>----------------------------------
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:16:11 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche and Eros

On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:27:15 -0800, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

>Wow Nancy,
>The image brought tears to my eyes and a lump to my throat. Maybe I
>should read my Greek myths.
>
>
>Cheryl
>-having just arrived in the monster's mansion
> after being sold out by my father - whew!

N: Synchonistically I'm in the middle of struggling with a short short called
'Teardrops of the Moon' (an ancient name for pearls).

Nancy
Hoping that your tears were in the nature of a 'New Year's' cleansing.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:23:07 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Tears
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy

The tears were only in the nature of welling up, but then every spring
must start somewhere, n'cest-ce pas?

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:25:44 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      The weather
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Julie,
We have no snow nor rain nor sleet and we get our mail. It's been warm
lately - in the 50s during the day and the thirties at night. Sunny. THEY
say that Bend gets 300+ days of sunshine per year. This is high desert
not the soggy western Oregon that grows moss. I'm sorry the snow has been
such a noisy pain. So far when it's snowed here it's been gone within a
day or so. Only once has it lasted longer and then it was 4 days I think.
I'm growing used to the cold I think because it isn't bothering me as
much as it did. These temperatures are about as cold as it was in October
- maybe a little colder - and I don't mind as much now as I did then.

I put a second coat of paint on my bedroom walls today - and now I'm
painting the inside of the kitchen cabinets. And putting shelp paper on.
The refrigerator came yesterday (Kenmore - Sear's best - on sale and
delivered by cute guys with big arms). I feel like a grownup - getting
excited about a refrigerator ans all.

Cleo is now up to 16 units of insulin per day. When we were in SF she was
on 5 units per day. She feels much better, is less a brat, lets me pet
her more and is playful again. I guess health matters in matters of the
personality- even in cats. Still, her greatest hurdle is still to come -
when THE DOG comes to live at our house. I think THE DOG will be a golden
retriever but I'm still considering getting a yellow lab. We'll see.
That's still some months away.

I have to go to work tomorrow at the clinic.
I'd rather work in my house.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:14:56 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: No more boredom...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,
<Judith...where are you? I hope you aren't bummed out about the quoting
stuff and have gone away.>

Not to worry Cheryl...one thing that you need to know is that I don't react
personally...I take what is offered and take it in as in plankin...I enjoy
all of it...just getting ready to drive across country to Scottsdale

judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:39:23 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche and authenticity in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1999011016111976@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi all,

Thanks for your comments.

I think that we are having an attack of authenticity all over the place
now. I can picture Cheryl in her high desert abode. I hope you are enjoying
the excitement of a new place. Sounds like a reqarding time.

I think you were right and not projecting Nancy about what I thought
I felt like on this group.. though bearing in mind that I am being
*hugely* introspective here. Perhaps more than is really wanted.

I think you are right about the truth but not necessarily the whole
truth, nevertheless I feel fine about 'fessing up' as you put it.

so now when someone does a search in the archives for 'Marijuana'
'Dope' or 'The Good Stuff' they'll come here.. (go backwards, traveller).

> 'take care of oneself'
> to preserve one's inner balance and self containment
> lead to
> 'soul growth' and a greater capacity for authenticity.

        yeah


all of ya have a good one.



               _
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
                ( miles )

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:41:15 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      The weather
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Psyber-people,

In case anyone is confused reagrding the recent post to "Julie" about
"the weather" = it was really to a friend of mine in Chicago who has been
in that awful snow storm - got sent to y'all by mistake. Sorry.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:22:55 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche and authenticity in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.6.32.19990111223923.008cb420@paradise.net.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

All, Cheryl,

Any case anyone is confused because of the mistype in my
last email, I meant to say

I can picture Cheryl in her high desert abode. I hope you are enjoying
the excitement of a new place, Cheryl. It sounds
like you are having an exciting and interesting time.

rather than...
> I can picture Cheryl in her high desert abode. I hope you are enjoying
> the excitement of a new place. Sounds like a reqarding time.

Noise. Noise. Noise. Signal.
               _
           o  | |
    _  _      | |  _   ,
 /|/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/

  miles@mail.com
  miles@helios.co.nz


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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:02:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Bill Gross
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Welcome Bill Gross,

Thanks for joining Psyber-L.  You will have been getting the posts for the last
few days, but due to a hitch at my end i could not post this intro till I was
back at work today!  Monday already here.

I hope the discussions so far are of interest and that you will feel free to
raise the matters that are on your mind.  Here is the intro you sent me, posted
to Psyber-L as mentioned.

We have had a few questions popping up here on such matters as how you heard
about Psyber-L, academic interests, who we know in rl.  Your intro makes me
wonder just how many people here are therapists or counsellors.  how many have
or want to have online practices?

Of course it would be interesting to hear about your experience with PTM &
veterans and your experiences online as well.


Walter

~~~quote~~~



Dear Walter,

thank you for replying to my query about psyber-l.

I would like to subscribe to this list. I believe I was able yesterday
to accomplish this, but you wanted some data about me and my interests.

I will provide some of it now briefly.

I am a clinical psychologist with a small private practice in my home. I
recently retired as a staff psychologist with the lexington Ky veterans
medical center after 30 years there.

I am totally blind and am learning to use a talking computer. I
currently  must use dos and this limits my web access.

I am 63 and been married 42 years with one adult child and two darling
grand children.

I am interested in such topics as age related mental health problems,
intuition, creativity, and post traumatic stress.

I belong to the American Psychological association and the kentucky
association.   My home and roots are in tennessee.

I hope this helps introduce me.

please excuse typos, as I am just learning to type and to use a
computer.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Best regards



~~~end quote~~~


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:49:08 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Gender wars and role playing
In-Reply-To:  <v0302090bb2bd4476aa54@[207.155.25.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:57:03 -0800, you, Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>,
wrote:

>However, just because I am a writer, does not mean I am unethical or that I
>am here to write about this group.  Unless I am doing investigative news
>(usually about government), I don't write hostile pieces and have never,
>even in investigative news, written about any person without their
>knowledge.  I don't need to.  There are too many people willing to give
>permission to be quoted.

You did write about your experiences with the unnamed mailing list, both in an
article and to us.  Did you tell everyone on that list that you were doing that?

What if I saw myself in a fictionalized or anonymized account of an email list
interaction, where it would be very easy for other members of that list to
identify the players in the drama?  What if that fictionalized or anonymized
portrayal of me were quite unflattering, insulting, or even accusational?

You said that some people on that list were very unkind to you in your female
guise, and no female members of the list stood up for you.  What if the name of
that list somehow got out, because someone on that list recognized your
description?  Then every woman who had been on that list at that time would be
tarred with the brush of "doesn't support women no matter whether they agree or
not."

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:29:32 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      What a wierd neighborhood...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

So close...yet so far away...
What a wierd neighborhood.
What a strange way to have freinds..
the disembodied mediated phantams
with name tags
and a common thread
called walter
putting all that energy into
keeping it going
how -f-r-u-s-t-r-a-t-i-n-g-
to have friends that ARE NOT
in any way shape or form
that I have known real
while real keeps popping out
all over
oh go
my head spins
and my body aches for what
I used to know
as real
really

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:21:28 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What a wierd neighborhood...
In-Reply-To:  <369C131C.2649@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

you know what really made my mind ache
was when the fantasy suddenly started to matter.

remember when Judith Dolores etc had the
terrible difficulty with the poor woman stuck
in a home prison,

it came out of fantasy, close on the heels of
a discussion of the myths of eros, and yet
was so called 'real'... as if there was a dividing
line...

turned out, it seems, at least for me, that at
the end of the line there was no clear line of
division between reality and internet fiction..


btw.. I saw 'enemy of the state' last night..
great movie.. i was suprised...

not at all what you would expect...

back to work
               _
           o  | |
    _  _      | |  _   ,
 /|/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/

  miles@mail.com
  miles@helios.co.nz


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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:09:52 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What a wierd neighborhood...
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19990113152128.00a02590@atrium.helios.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Miles, all,

>remember when Judith Dolores etc had the
>terrible difficulty with the poor woman stuck
>in a home prison,

I'd just like to correct the basic data presented here, on behalf of
Judith, (who is somewhere on the highway on the way to Arizona). I think
this refers to an incident in which Dolores had made contact on IRC with a
woman or a friend of a woman who claimed to be in this kind of trouble, and
it was Julienne who got wheels moving in the non-virtual world, regardless
of whether the report was true or not.

If my memory is accurate, Judith was not even subscribed at the time.

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:23:59 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Renga  Part III
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

If you really look
there are never any clear lines
between anything
all lines being nothing more than
conceptual constructs
and all of it flowing helter skelter
into everything else
and I said
oh god my head spins and spins
a big web of world
maya mama may i
mother of all illusions
as all movies are
just a fantasy
reel or not
but I still have a body
a body
a body
oh boy a body
in cyberspace
how fun
:(

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:10:52 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What a wierd neighborhood...
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a00b2c1bd752b09@[207.54.181.32]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes Stephen,

You are correct.. it was Dolores who brought the issue up.
I put Judiths name quite arbitrarily ( typing quickly))
probably because she made a contribution which stuck
in my memory..

Sorry to construe information incorrectly. Anyway its all
ancient history.


Stephen wrote
>I'd just like to correct the basic data presented here, on behalf of
>Judith, (who is somewhere on the highway on the way to Arizona). I think
>this refers to an incident in which Dolores had made contact on IRC with a
>woman or a friend of a woman who claimed to be in this kind of trouble, and

               _
           o  | |
    _  _      | |  _   ,
 /|/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/

  miles@mail.com
  miles@helios.co.nz


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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:02:55 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>
Subject:      Re: Gender wars and role playing
In-Reply-To:  <36e7eac8.450515859@mail.digex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>You did write about your experiences with the unnamed mailing list, both in an
>article and to us.

Joanne,

The shape of this discussion seems to slither around.  Where did you get
the idea I published an article using that info? It never happened. I was
clear on that point. I did write about it here, and your points are well
taken. However, it isn't a secret that this experiment took place. The list
in question discussed it fully.  As to the support of women, there were
women who supported "Mary." Perhaps you didn't read the first post on this
subject: "More women jumped in, either defending her and telling him to go,
or the exact opposite..."

It is interesting to me that there are assumptions made which have no basis
in fact, on that list and on this.  I wonder if this is because of our
reading habits in general (not paying close enough attention) or our
reading habits online (scanning fast because onscreen reading is more
difficult due to eyestrain).

I also wonder if this issue would have raised as much interest if the role
playing surrounded some other quality, such as two "obese" people on a
weight loss list. I tend to think not. The actual posts did not invite
anyone else to participate (they were addressed "For medical writers only"
in a group where it was known no medical writers were present), were
factual, and discussed only medical article writing. The only "role
playing" was one side was identified as Mark and the other as Mary, neither
of which wrote to anyone other than each other.  Would it have made a
difference if "Mark" was actually a male and "Mary" an actual female,
possibly using aliases, but both definitely unknown to the group? If so,
why would it have been different? If not, why not?  Is it our name, our
gender, or another identifiable but less tangible characteristic which is
most important?

It is my view that the discussion on both lists are/were not about gender
or name, but our tendency to make assumptions concerning others based upon
inadequate or incorrect information. Based upon my experiences in
Cyberspace, I find I am better able to refrain from prejudgement of others
before they become well known to me. I like myself better this way.

Lore

Loretta Kemsley
President

Women Artists and Writers International
Publisher of MOONDANCE: Celebrating Creative Women
Our vision, our wisdom, our strength
http://www.moondance.org
For information about WAWI: mailto:wawi@moondance.org

Writer, Editor and Editorial Coach
Personal Portfolio: Women's Writings
http://www.moondance.org/lore/portfolio.htm

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:25:38 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What a wierd neighborhood...
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19990113161052.0094c490@atrium.helios.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Miles, all,

>
>Sorry to construe information incorrectly. Anyway its all
>ancient history.

No biggie of course. Yet, with new arrivals arriving every day, I note we
have a shared history here. It's episodes are one way to qualify it. The
details may be receding but

they aren't going away. either. *history, and the working out of
personality on the solunary plane...*

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 06:29:08 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      The dismebodied life
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Psyber-people,

Everybody who is imporatnt to me right now (except for one friend here)
is among the disembodied. All the friends I left in SF are dismebodied
phone calls - other friends around the country and the world are
disembodied Christmas cards. Both of the above categories are also
disembodied in email. Then there are the psyber-people like yourselves.
Add to this the yogis and lamas I know you keep in touch on the etheric
plane (no joke - it's part of my life) and I live in a mostly disembodied
world of space. Obviously, this realization came through loud and clear
last night.I feel discordant in this regard - all my intimate
relationships (again - except one) are non-physical, immaterial,
space-connected. Is this the new age?

Miles, I don't think I was on the list when the incident you mentioned
with Dolores took place so I don't know to what you refer. Fill me in?
Or maybe Stephen can....

Just thought I'd "explain" last night's outburst.....

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:04:07 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What a wierd neighborhood...
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a00b2c1bd752b09@[207.54.181.32]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:09:52 -0500, you, Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>, wrote:

>Miles, all,
>
>>remember when Judith Dolores etc had the
>>terrible difficulty with the poor woman stuck
>>in a home prison,
>
>I'd just like to correct the basic data presented here, on behalf of
>Judith, (who is somewhere on the highway on the way to Arizona). I think
>this refers to an incident in which Dolores had made contact on IRC with a
>woman or a friend of a woman who claimed to be in this kind of trouble, and
>it was Julienne who got wheels moving in the non-virtual world, regardless
>of whether the report was true or not.

She did?  What did she do?  I don't recall her doing anything.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:04:07 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Gender wars and role playing
In-Reply-To:  <v03020925b2c1c629db3b@[207.155.25.34]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:02:55 -0800, you, Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>,
wrote:

>>You did write about your experiences with the unnamed mailing list, both in an
>>article and to us.
>
>Joanne,
>
>The shape of this discussion seems to slither around.  Where did you get
>the idea I published an article using that info? It never happened.

I thought when you wrote:

>This is an excerpt from
>an article I wrote:
>
>
>>Women consistently receive fewer average responses than men.   In one
>of the discussions on "sexism," 89% of men received an explicit
>response, as compared with only 70% of women.  Both men and women
>responded more often to men.   Women acknowledging other women's
>postings constitute the smallest portion of total responses, an
>implicit recognition, perhaps, of the more powerful status of men in
>the groups.  Topics initiated by women become topics of discussion by
>the group as a whole less often.  On rare occasions when women persist
>in posting on a given topic despite relative lack of response, the
>outcome may be even more discouraging. When the women's rate of posting
>increased gradually until it equaled 50% of the contributions for a
>period of one or two days, the reaction was virtually identical in
>three separate cases.  A handful of men condemned the topic of
>discussion, while several threatened to cancel their subscription to
>the list.  Various reasons were given, none of them citing women's
>participation directly: the tone was too "vituperative" or the topics
>were "inappropriate."  These reactions are consistent with Spender's
>(1979) claim that women cannot contribute half of the talk in a
>discussion without making men feel uncomfortable or threatened.  She
>found men (and to a lesser degree, women) perceive women as talking
>more than men when women talk only 30% of the time.  This phenomenon is
>not limited to Spender's academic seminar data but rather is a feature
>of mixed-sex conversation in public settings more generally.
>(Herring, 1992)

that the list you were describing to us was being described in that article.
Sorry if I misunderstood.

>I was
>clear on that point. I did write about it here, and your points are well
>taken. However, it isn't a secret that this experiment took place. The list
>in question discussed it fully.

Okay, that was what I was asking.  You didn't say that they knew you would be
discussing it elsewhere.

>As to the support of women, there were
>women who supported "Mary." Perhaps you didn't read the first post on this
>subject: "More women jumped in, either defending her and telling him to go,
>or the exact opposite..."

You also wrote later in that same section:

>I found it interestng that his most ferocouus supporters were women who
>did not bother to correspond with the female in question nor did anyone
>seem to check 'her' posts to see what she had said to him that was so
>terrible.

"Nor did anyone seem to check 'her' posts to see what she had said to him that
was so terrible."  This seems to say that the women, just like the men, didn't
check 'her' posts at all, which seems contradictory to the other part.  I admit
I must have forgotten about the first part when I got to this point, finding
this particular statement to be shocking.  I have been in many such men versus
women situations, and found lots of the women will side with the woman, as well
as some women siding with the man.  Usually I don't see men siding with the
woman, except in some unusually egalitarian environments, one of which I do
frequent -- the usenet forum alt.folklore.urban.

Part of the problem with me and long stringy type stories; I have a nonlinear
mind that doesn't want to know the scenery of how you got from A to B, who
changed whose mind.  I want the map of everything all at once, and when I read
that one statement I presumed it applied to the whole situation and it must have
knocked the rest of the story out of my mind.  Sorry about that.

>It is interesting to me that there are assumptions made which have no basis
>in fact, on that list and on this.

I asked questions, some of which were not based on assumptions, some of which
were based on things I took differently from the way you must have meant them.
We certainly can't have a discussion with no assumptions!  I invite you to try
if you like.

>I wonder if this is because of our
>reading habits in general (not paying close enough attention) or our
>reading habits online (scanning fast because onscreen reading is more
>difficult due to eyestrain).

I read fast because I get about 500 emails a day (not all of which I read).  And
because I just read fast.  I am blessed with no eyestrain yet.

>I also wonder if this issue would have raised as much interest if the role
>playing surrounded some other quality, such as two "obese" people on a
>weight loss list. I tend to think not.

It seems to me that this is a pretty safe statement.

>The actual posts did not invite
>anyone else to participate (they were addressed "For medical writers only"
>in a group where it was known no medical writers were present), were
>factual, and discussed only medical article writing. The only "role
>playing" was one side was identified as Mark and the other as Mary, neither
>of which wrote to anyone other than each other.  Would it have made a
>difference if "Mark" was actually a male and "Mary" an actual female,
>possibly using aliases, but both definitely unknown to the group?

It would be interesting to find that out; maybe you could get that experiment
going.

I've thought off and on of having an anonymous list, where all posts are
anonymized so that not only can we not assign the words to a particular gender
or other characteristic, we would not even be able to assign more than one post
to any specific person.  If I can figure out how to do it I'll let the people
here know about it.

>If so,
>why would it have been different? If not, why not?  Is it our name, our
>gender, or another identifiable but less tangible characteristic which is
>most important?

All good questions.

>It is my view that the discussion on both lists are/were not about gender
>or name, but our tendency to make assumptions concerning others based upon
>inadequate or incorrect information. Based upon my experiences in
>Cyberspace, I find I am better able to refrain from prejudgement of others
>before they become well known to me. I like myself better this way.

When do we have adequate information?  Never.

And I don't have to base my decisions just on being in cyberspace, in real life
we have just the same inadequacies and confusions of information.

In person (I don't say in "real life" because we are in real life here just as
we are in real life when physically present), we gain facial expression,
physical expression and all that, but we lose the ability to make ourselves
clear without stuttering, forgetting words, distractions of honking horns,
spinach on the teeth, or an accent that reminds us of our nasty Uncle Bob.

Perhaps more is made of a person's gender on-line because so much else of the
person is invisible.  You can't tell whether it's a "sexy seductive looking"
Christine or a stereotypical librarian type Christine, so you project whatever
you might think of women in general, or Christines in particular, or people who
spell poorly or well or use smilies and exclamation marks all over the place or
don't.  Or you might listen to the message insted of being charmed by the
messenger.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:05:13 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>
Subject:      Re: Gender wars and role playing
In-Reply-To:  <36aeec28.516403687@mail.digex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

JoAnne wrote:

>"Nor did anyone seem to check 'her' posts to see what she had said to him that
>was so terrible."

That is a very broad statement. I should have been more careful in the
wording. Sorry.


>I read fast because I get about 500 emails a day (not all of which I read).

Good point. I too read fast for that reason, although I cannot say I get
that many. I used to but have severely cut back because I found I was using
over-subscription to lists as an excuse not to do other work, which I
really wanted to do.  We are complex creatures, aren't we?

>I've thought off and on of having an anonymous list, where all posts are
>anonymized so that not only can we not assign the words to a particular gender
>or other characteristic, we would not even be able to assign more than one
>post
>to any specific person.

I would be willing to take part, if there is a way. It would be interesting
to see the results.  There is an anonymous server wherein all email
addresses have only random letter or number designations, such as
anon-188752@anon.twwells.com (the ISP is the correct one, but I made up the
recipient).  However, the designation stays the same for each person.  That
is as close as I have seen, other than anon. autoforwarders.

>And I don't have to base my decisions just on being in cyberspace, in real
>life
we have just the same inadequacies and confusions of information.

Which is the same point I was trying to make in my last paragraph, but
apparently failed.  We are quick to make judgements based upon perceptions
which may or may not be valid.  Sometimes this is necessary but most times
it is not.  We could reasonably take more time to assess a person, which is
what I am trying to do in my life.  One thing I have come to believe is
that all people, including those outside of society's norms, are doing the
best they can. It has been my experience that when people learn how to do
better, then they do. Some would argue there are well educated people
living in the gutter, and this is true, but there is more than one way of
'knowing' that we need in order to do better in our lives.

>Perhaps more is made of a person's gender on-line because so much else of the
>person is invisible.

I had not thought in the reverse. You may well be right. If so, then an
enormous amount of people are at cross purposes. On the one hand, there are
those who enjoy not being 'in the body' so they can experiment with being
taller, shorter, or any number of ways of being different than they
actually are, and then there may be those who want to pin them down to
those very things to force a 'picture' of the other party in a vain attempt
to feel more secure. I say vain because scoundrels are scoundrels whether
f2f or in Cyberspace. (I have to admit Cyberspace does provide the perfect
medium for their posturing.)  Which brings me back to my belief that trust
should reside within oneself and not in words or deeds of other parties,
unless there are other ways to verify the trust is valid. When one trusts
their own instincts and perceptions, the intent of the other party becomes
less important.

Lore

Loretta Kemsley
President

Women Artists and Writers International
Publisher of MOONDANCE: Celebrating Creative Women
Our vision, our wisdom, our strength
http://www.moondance.org
For information about WAWI: mailto:wawi@moondance.org

Writer, Editor and Editorial Coach
Personal Portfolio: Women's Writings
http://www.moondance.org/lore/portfolio.htm

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:02:03 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Art McGee
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Welcome Art McGee

Thanks for your request to join to the list.  I have added you to the Psyber-L
list, and this welcome message is addressed to all 40 or so of us.  I hope you
enjoy our niche in psyberspace and can fruitfully explore your interests in the
Black soul in cyberspace.

Below is your intro as you posted it to me...


Walter


~~~quote~~~


My specific interest is in the psychological contruction of ethnic and
"racial" identity in virtual environments, particularly with regard to how
the theory and practice of multiple-identity construction by Black people
in racist, RL (real life) societies (as alluded to by Frantz Fanon in
"Black Skin, White Mask" and articulated by W.E.B. Dubois in "The Souls of
Black Folk"), translates to or manifests in cyberspace.

I am not an academic, but a layperson, who, being self-identified as
Black, is intensely interested in these issues.

Thank you. :-)


Art McGee

--------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Organization Consultant    Institute for Global Communications  |
|  SEIU Local 790                                   IRS 501(c)(3)  |
|  http://www.igc.org/                             amcgee@igc.org  |
--------------------------------------------------------------------


~~~end  quote~~~


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:01:46 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: The dismebodied life
In-Reply-To:  <369CADB4.2A7E@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl

> I feel discordant in this regard - all my intimate
> relationships (again - except one) are non-physical, immaterial,
> space-connected. Is this the new age?

I am up at my retreat at Mt. Lyford.  It is misty.  It has been raining
softly all day.  I need to get body out and take my embodied dog for a
walk, but i get engrossed in the realms of cyberspace.

It is one of the few times I have been away from Kate since we got
married last November.  I'm here, she is at home. I am thinking that the
relationship is always disembodied.  The real is virtual.  All the more
real for that!  I am thinking about our wedding.  All words and the
wedding is "ancient history" yet we are "one flesh" which as our
celebrant explained it means one identity... identity one of those
creations with our words a virtuality. He said it was a translation of
the hebrew? "brit"?

Touch can be rape or intimacy depending of the virtual... ie the absence
of consent, the presence of love.

~~~

I saw City Of Angels a few days ago.  Loved it.  It is a remake of Wings
of Desire which was the best!  I wrote about here a while back:

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9808&L=psyber-l&P=R1454&D=0&X=26BD2B68DE4056BBB5

Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:22:58 GMT
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: stirrings

For all that I write about the reality of the virtual, these movies
explore the delight of being in a body, of being alive and not being a
mere virtual creature like an angel (wonderful as they are).  I am moved
to tears by these movies for their love of the sensations... to have a
coffee!  To surf a wave.  Wow!  Seth in CofA would not trade one actual
kiss or even the smell of her breath for eternity without it.

I am moved by a movie! as you say Cheryl, mother of all fantasy...

Through the window I look at the bush in the rain and the drops
glistening on the leaves, and find it hard to leave the computer!

I feel discordant in this regard!


Walter






__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:02:25 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: No more boredom...
In-Reply-To:  <3698D225.25EE@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl

> Walter, how fun that you met Charles..I know that you like each so well..
> why were you in LA?

Last May on my way to an Internet Conference in Harvard.  Which was on
my way to London to visit Josh, my son.


http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9805&L=psyber-l&F=&S=&P=16599

Dos this url work, it is to a post I wrote at the time.

Date:         Mon, 25 May 1998 06:56:00 GMT
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Harvard & London

Since the archives have become closed it is harder to link to old posts.
Any one have any knowledge of that?

I had great intentions of writing more on it all...

I had a great trip, and the content of the conference was the least of
it, the experience of Boston, Cambridge, Harvard was wonderful.


Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:19:20 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: No more boredom...
In-Reply-To:  <36a37e7f.49165840@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9805&L=psyber-l&F=&S=&P=16599
>
>Does this url work, it is to a post I wrote at the time.

works fine for me

               _
           o  | |
    _  _      | |  _   ,
 /|/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/

  miles@mail.com
  miles@helios.co.nz


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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:50:50 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What a wierd neighborhood...
In-Reply-To:  <36adeb90.516251718@mail.digex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

JoAnne,

Julienne back-channeled me asking if I would help her. I replied only at
such time as the report was actually confirmed. The next thing I recall
happening was Dolores writing the group to say that some kind of authority
had contacted her. I haven't done an archive search, but it was something
along the lines of a question, "Who gave [?] my email address?".

For my own part, the report alarmed me, and I offered to help, but in the
several days after Dolores first notified the group about this supposedly
trapped girl, it became clear that Dolores's ambivalence and the lack of
more substantial information made it (for me) much less of a crisis.
(Besides, my fake bluster was a mask; I really didn't want to do anything.)

On the hand, I believe Julienne, consistent with her views on such matters,
may have pursued the matter "as if" it were certainly unfolding.

Ancient history, but also another mini-episode in our ongoing dramatics here.

***

best to all,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:03:22 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Wings of Desire
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

"Wings of desire" - one of my favorite movies - the re-make wasn't nearly
as good. Yet so few people in the States saw the original I guess they
decided they could make a more Hollywood version. How nice to be on
retreat in the mists - your decription reminded me of hiking in the
Himalayas at a time when we had to stop for a day at a lodge in order to
acclimate to the altitude. It was cozy inside and all misty and chilling
but incredibly FRESH outside. I long for those days. But ahead of me is
exploring Oregon - that will be what this spring and summer are about.
The Cascade mountains are all around me and Crater Lake is not so far
away. And by then I will have a dog to tramp around with (I think you say
'tramping' in New Zealand, yes?).  I also look forward to getting basck
on my bicycle. I only ride off-road (we call it mountain biking or 'fat
tire' biking.) After my brother's accident I stay off the roads.

Gee, I sound like an athlete here - not at all one - much more of a couch
potato - but I still love being outdoors and have had some good outdoor
adventures.

All for now -

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:16:00 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      A Dream
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

Dreams are so amazing - how our little seemingly asleep brain takes all
out cares and conversations and weaves them into a web(!) of a story
that can comfort or heal us -

Last night I had a dream. I was in an airport (read: space travel) and I
was connecting between planes. Walking through the terminal I saw some
young doctors that I knew and stopped to talk. For a brief moment the
airport turned into a hall from my college and then back again. I
continued walking and saw a young (20's) woman that I also knew - she was
going to go to a club for dancing named "Wolf" and asked me if I'd like
to go. I said I didn't know if I had time between planes and I looked at
my watch and it was 10 minutes before my plane left and I started running
through the terminal. I couldn't run very fast - my legs seemed like lead
and I was sure I was going to miss the plane and that I would have to
stay over another day. I was Dulles airport in Washington DC (I used to
work right near there in RL) and As I was running down a long corridor a
pilot asked to see my ticket. I quickly handed it to me and tried to keep
running but he said he would take care of it and I realized he was the
pilot of the plane I was on and it couldn't leave without him so I slowed
down. He lead me through a couple more corridors and then we were at the
gate and he handed my ticket to the agent and she was causual - not
hurried - she asked me how I was and I said "I'm so tired I could cry".
The pilot, who was standing next to me reached over and very lightly
traced a line on my face where he could see that I was tired - I could
feel him do this in the dream. I was very touched since it was very
tender. Later his girlfriend was on the telephone with a friend of hers
saying he hadn't returned her phone calls and just then the doorbell rang
and it was the piolt. I was in the apartment only she didn't know it
because I was invisible. She also didn't know that he was now my
boyfriend and that he was there to return some things to her.

That's all I remember. Great dream. There was a time in my life, when I
first went into therapy - 28 years ago - when I developed a real phobia
about airplanes - I would only have to see then in the sky and I would
practically have a panic attack right there. I guess I've come along way
since then. I used to have airplane crash dreams all the time - even
after the intense fear went away. I think this was an important dream.
For maybe the first time I think this psyber-group can and does function
like a kind of therapy - if you put yourself into it.

Thanks Walter for doing what you're doing.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:57:06 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Art McGee
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Hello Psyberians, Art :)

In a message dated 99-01-14 07:10:15 EST, you write:

<< My specific interest is in the psychological contruction of ethnic and
 "racial" identity in virtual environments, particularly with regard to how
 the theory and practice of multiple-identity construction by Black people
 in racist, RL (real life) societies (as alluded to by Frantz Fanon in
 "Black Skin, White Mask" and articulated by W.E.B. Dubois in "The Souls of
 Black Folk"), translates to or manifests in cyberspace.

 I am not an academic, but a layperson, who, being self-identified as
 Black, is intensely interested in these issues.
  >>

Art, welcome to Psyber-L!  I am very interested in your thoughts for a couple
of reasons.  First, I have never seen any kind of open, thoughtful dialogue
about race in any cyberspace forum.  On-line dialogue about gender/gender
identity seems common, but dialogue about racial issues is not, at least on
the various listservs or areas on the Internet I visit.  Hopefully Psyber-L
would be a good place to start this dialogue?

Second, in my *real life* work as a residential counselor for dually diagnosed
clients, I work with both Black staff and clients.  Some of the clients are
connected to gangs and/or have other violent associations.  My immediate
supervisor, the program manager. is also Black and asked me to possibly
facillitate groups centered on race with him.

One of my interests is to apply what I learn in cyberspace to *real life*.  I
figure the more I know, the better I understand other(s).

At least, Art, thank you for passing along the name of these two books, which
I will try to locate.  And, I would also like very much to hear more of your
thoughts on race in cyberspace.  How are they similar/different gender?
*Does* Black Soul translate in cyberspace?   How significant is it, how much
does it impact on-line relationships?

The topic especially seems appropriate now, when we are about to celebrate
Martin Luther King Day in the US on Monday.  Even before I read your intro
from Walter, I was contemplating that, of all US historical figures, Martin
Luther King's legacy and the message he brought to Western culture far exceeds
any others I can think of, including presidents.

Namaste'
Sheryl
(from the mountains of Colorado :)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:53:13 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Art McGee
In-Reply-To:  <9dcb6c8a.36a0b6d2@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello Art, Sheryl, and all

Welcome Art, you introduced an interesting topic to the Psyber-list: is the
psyche colored. I have always thought that the psyche is transparent. But
it is not at all  so!  I found some  Web-site addresses  regarding this
topic  from the Cybermind-list:

The Unbearable Whiteness of Being:
African American Critical Theory and Cyberculture
<http://www.kalital.com/Text/Writing/Whitenes.html>

There it is said among othet things:

"In cyberspace, it is finally possible to completely and utterly disappear
people of color. I have long suspected that the much vaunted "freedom" to
shed the "limiting" markers of race and gender on the Internet is illusory,
and that in fact it masks a more disturbing phenomenon--the whitinizing of
cyberspace. The invisibility of people of color on the Net has allowed
white-controlled and white-read publications like WIRED to simply elide
questions of race.2"

"The irony of this invisibility is that African American critical theory
provides very sophisticated tools for the analysis of cyberculture, since
African American critics have been discussing the problem of multiple
identities, fragmented personae, and liminality for over a hundred years.
But WIRED readers and writers aren't familiar with this rich body of
critical theory, and so we are presented with articles like "Sex, Lies, and
Avatars," which fawn uncritically over Sherry Turkle's supposedly
groundbreaking work in Life on the Screen."

Other Web-sites:

Race In/For Cyberspace:
Identity Tourism and Racial Passing on the Internet
<http://acorn.grove.iup.edu/en/workdays/Nakamura.html>

American Emissaries to Africa:
>From John Barlow via James Bond to James Baldwin and Back
<http://www.factory.org/nettime/archive/1292.html>

What Color is the Net?
<http://www.hotwired.com/netizen/97/11/index2a.html>

WIRED 3.12:
Idees Fortes - Race in Cyberspace?
<http://www.wired.com/wired/3.12/departments/berger.if.html>

Book Review:
The African-American Resource Guide to the Internet
<http://www.otal.umd.edu/~rccs/books/battle.html>

Black Pioneers of the Internet
<http://www.delphi.com/blackpioneers/>

Forsaken Geographies:
Cyberspace and the New World 'Other'
<http://eng.hss.cmu.edu/internet/oguibe/>
<http://arts.usf.edu/~ooguibe/madrid.htm>

UnderCurrent #4:
Virtual Whiteness and Narrative Diversity
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~ucurrent/uc4/4-lockard.html

AFROAM-L Archives - February 1995:
Race, Ethnicity, Culture, and Cyberspace
<http://www.afrinet.net/~hallh/afrotalk/afrofeb95/0796.html>

Art, you wrote:

>I am not an academic, but a layperson, who, being self-identified as
>Black, is intensely interested in these issues.

What do you mean "being self-identified"?

Cheers
Anita Konkka
from Helsinki, Finland



anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 22:09:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: A Dream
In-Reply-To:  <369F69C0.13D9@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl, All

Thanks for posting your dream.  I am a dream fan, and have been doing
some work on my own lately, and also a lot with my clients.  You seem to
have found what you want in the dream, it has comforted and healed, just
like the pilot in the dream! That being the case I guess there is no
need on your part to go into the dream more.  I have some thoughts
though and I hope it is ok if i share them. They are not specifically on
the dream, more on the context here...

> For maybe the first time I think this psyber-group can and does function
> like a kind of therapy - if you put yourself into it.
>
> Thanks Walter for doing what you're doing.

What can we do with a dream here?  We had a member here Richard, who
ran? dream groups on line, they used a specific technique, which meant
they did not require the context of the dream to be part of the
discussion, they simply shared, using a formulae:  "If this were my
dream... "  A safe and interesting way to approach groups and dreams,
and one that I use at times, nothing wrong with it really... however....

There was discussion on this and here are links to some posts I have
never forgotten from Anita, and it will be easy to read the whole thread
in the archives with the posts from Richard.

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9710&L=psyber-l&P=R2294&X=037ECF1915903EC472
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9710&L=psyber-l&P=R2115&X=037ECF1915903EC472
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9710&L=psyber-l&P=R651&X=037ECF1915903EC472

[Aside all thes URLs had &Y=walter@psybernet.co.nz on the end, but they
work here without that, and I presume that you would need my password to
get in if you used that ending on the URLs.  As you can see I am a fan
of using the archives, and even though it is not HTML we can have a
hypertext experience here!  Be sure that your email reader does not
insert spaces in these URLs if they are in two bits cut and paste both
into the browser without the spaces.]

That was your captain speaking?  <grin>

Anita's posts beautifully advocate for deeper connections between
people, as we are doing here, one quote from Anita:

|  The dreams without the contexts are mostly boring,
|  except big archetypal dreams and the writer's dreams  (because the writers
|  write well). William S. Burroughs says in his book of dreams: My Education:
|  "For years I wondered why dreams are so often so dull when related, and this
|  morning I find the answer, which is very simple - like most answers, you
|  have always known it: NO CONTEXT... like  a stuffed animal set on the floor
|  of a bank."


Another approach that I am interested in, what if the dream was about us
and our process here, your dream particularly feels like that Cheryl,
but every dream posted here can be seen in that context.  We are
dreaming together, manifesting a collective psyche.

In that light I see us overcoming the fears of psyberspace.  I then
wonder about the girl-friend?

~~~

My post is somewhat convoluted... I am just getting to the idea I wanted
to get out, so bear with me.

> I think this psyber-group can and does function like a kind of therapy

It does for me.  I have learnt to be a better pilot, and I do not mean
simply the buttons and switches.  I am more comfortable with being the
captain of the ship, without feeling at all responsible for the actual
travel plans of the passengers.  Does that make sense?  I have had a
struggle to let go my role as *therapist* and *facilitator* and to do a
simpler task, run the ship.  I am more aware that there is another role
as well, host, as on planes: "Good Morning, welcome aboard, have a good
flight..."

I will not try to "help" people have good conversation, or any for that
matter, beyond being myself as participant.  Simply flying the ship will
lead to us doing what we do well.

Of course I struggle with these things, such as the initial reticence on
the "quoting >>>" thing.  "Fasten your seat belts please."

All this translates into being more of a pilot in my own psyche... my
own life (getting married was a sort of ship building, temenos building)
so being here is "therapy" for me.

Now here is my dream and let me quote from the Psyber-L description:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/pl_descript.txt

|  Psyber-L is a starting point for depth psychological work on
|  the net, and also a place for exploring and defining its
|  directions.

This list is therapeutic, I would like to know hoe to take that further.
This is still a starting point imo, what are the next steps?  We have
taken a few I think, the DreamEvent, Robert is now the Listowner of
JUNG... perhaps there are other ventures?

What is a viable form of group therapy on the net?  I am thinking about
that.  Your dream, Cheryl has stimulated that thought again, that
thirst!  Thanks.


Walter


















__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:18:27 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: making some links
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a0bb2a7666d9233@[195.200.13.240]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Simon, all

  making some links
  Thu, 24 Dec 1998 04:07:54 +0000

> Language and the sensuous: Spelling our way back into nature
> (review of David Abram, 'The Spell of the Sensuous'):
> http://www.tnews.com/text/language_sensuous.html

I enjoyed this review.  I took the essence to be, to quote Abram:

|  "Here I've written a whole book about the almost deleterious
|  influence of writing upon our senses and our connection with
|  nature," he says. "And yet I don't mean to demonize writing or
|  literacy. What I'm trying to suggest in the book is that writing
|  itself is a magic, and needs to be recognized as a very potent
|  form of magic.

I thought this connected well with our "body" thread.  Angels make their
notes in their little books.

This passage made me think:

|  "Lacking all sacredness, stripped of all spiritual significance,
|  the air is today little more than a conveniently forgotten dump
|  site for a host of gaseous effluents and industrial pollutants.
|  Our fascination is elsewhere, carried by all those other media --
|  these newspapers, radio broadcasts, television networks, computer
|  bulletin boards -- all these fields or channels of strictly human
|  communication that so readily grab our senses and mold our
|  thoughts once our age-old participation with the original
|  more-than-human medium has been sundered."

Air is one of the four elements, and thinking of it in that old sense it
has a sacred quality.  It is the medium of Hermes who flies with wings
on his *head*!

The Net is sacred.  I am not sure if he is saying that here, but

Eric Davies sure does.  Here is an exerpt from his book Technosis, he is
an interesting man, perhaps he'd, like to be on this list! (perhaps he
is! <grin>):

from "The Path is a Network"
by Erik Davis

http://www.levity.com/techgnosis/tgpath.html


|  The network is a *matrix*, a womb, the mother-matter that spawns
|  us all. But the matrix was always wired. Despite its biological
|  roots, the word itself came to denote a host of technological
|  tools and practices: a metal mold or die; a binding substance,
|  like cement in concrete, or the principle metal in an alloy; a
|  plate used for casting typefaces; a rectangular grid of
|  mathematical quantities treated as a single algebraic entity; of
|  and, of course, the dense pattern of connections that link up
|  computer systems. The matrix forms the context for emergence; it
|  is the medium, the motherboard, through which events, objects,
|  and new linkages are grown.

I am into the idea of the matrix.  Relates to Moreno's notion of the
sociometric matrix.  (will provide a link soon to where i mention that
in my almost finalised psychodrama thesis.)

The following passage might relate to some of our gender musings:

|  Obviously, today's technological matrices cannot simply be
|  characterized as "feminine" spaces or the rebirth of dame
|  nature's modus operandi. Such systems are perfectly capable of
|  sustaining linear goals of individual aggrandizement,
|  hierarchical control, and patriarchal power-plays  not to
|  mention war. Nonetheless, if we allow ourselves a sip or two of
|  zeitgeist liqueur, it seems hardly coincidental that the network
|  becomes a dominant technological archetype at the same time that
|  society hosts the rise of environmental activism, deep ecology,
|  Gaia hypotheses, and goddess religion, to say nothing of the
|  extraordinary success of modern feminism, which has unleashed
|  women in the workplace and generated a sustained critique of the
|  oppressive social arrangements that for so long sustained the
|  West's pretensions of enlightened progress.

More of Davis, and a few other interesting things at:

http://www.levity.com/index.html


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:47:40 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      A Dream
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter, all

As dreams operate on many levels at once I think I can say that my dream
was both about the psyber-list *and* about my inner expereince of late of
the *disembodied*. I see several points intertwining...yes, I think you
were the pilot - I also think the pilot was an aspect of myself come
forth to ease my tiredness of "doing it all myself". Remember: he said he
would "take care of it". One other point which I particularly noticed was
that the pilot traced *a line" on my face which I "felt" as a touch - no
*disembodied* there - also I remember saying in the poem from the other
not that all *lines* were merely *conceptual constructs*. I think the
laugh there was on me because the *line* that the pilot traced on my face
was so "embodied" I actually physically felt it! So all lines *aren't*
mere conceptual constructs!

The dream was also about travelling in space - like on the web but with a
plane as the metaphor. This stuff seems pretty obvious to me - I don't
even know why I'm explaining it. Etc, etc, etc

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:50:08 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      More dream...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Walter -

Oh yeah, the girlfriend... well, that's just the ole' Oedipal stuff,
no? (grin). There's more to this the deeper you go.... ;)

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Jan 1999 03:21:47 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: A Dream
In-Reply-To:  <36A15D5C.7306@coinet.com>
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Cheryl

>  This stuff seems pretty obvious to me - I don't
> even know why I'm explaining it. Etc, etc, etc

All makes good sense, what you say, and i guess it is important to know
that there is some commonality, or at least comprehension of these basic
ideas.  I think we have that, but it is good to have it confirmed, it is
for me anyway.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:09:15 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Art McGee <amcgee@IGC.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Art McGee
In-Reply-To:  <9dcb6c8a.36a0b6d2@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Message 1:

> From: Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
>
> Welcome Art, you introduced an interesting topic to the Psyber-list: is
> the psyche colored. I have always thought that the psyche is transparent.
> But it is not at all so!  I found some Web-site addresses regarding this
> topic from the Cybermind-list:

I know that you are probably busy, but did you happen to notice that *my
name* was on the compilation of resources that you saw on CyberMind?  %-)

I'd really appreciate it if when you forward that list in whole or in part
in the future, you make sure that proper attribution/credit is given to
me, since the list is my original creation. The reason is that the list is
part of some continuing research I'm doing, as well as being a sort of
statement, so it's important that people understand the proper context of
why the list was created and who created it. Thank you.

I'll send a copy of the complete list here, so that the rest of the folks
will be up to speed.

>> I am not an academic, but a layperson, who, being self-identified as
>> Black, is intensely interested in these issues.
>
> What do you mean "being self-identified"?

Racial identity is not solely about a fixed skin-color but is an
ever-changing, amalgamous social construct based partly on external ethnic
categorization, and partly on internal cultural affinity. Because of this,
the term "self-identified" is used to "fix" my identity in the current
context, based upon what I consider myself to be. In other words, If I say
I'm Black, then I'm Black, even if my skin appears very light to the
casual observer, or if I don't happen to be able to rap or dance very
well. ;-)

This concept comes from postmodern cultural theory, which has filtered
into the everyday vernacular of racial discussion.


Message 2:

> From: Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
>
> At least, Art, thank you for passing along the name of these two books,
> which I will try to locate.  And, I would also like very much to hear more
> of your thoughts on race in cyberspace.  How are they similar/different
> gender? *Does* Black Soul translate in cyberspace?  How significant is it,
> how much does it impact on-line relationships?

I think the complete list of resources I'm about to send will help you to
better understand some of these issues.

Offhand I would say that because identity is partly cultural or a state of
mind, it does translate into cyberspace. You can't see me, but the way
that I interact with you, and the way that I view the world is influenced
partly by how I self-identify. Even though cyberspace removes the
skin-color component, in my view, the most important component (my
conscious and unconscious mind) remains.

As more people come to better understand that "Blackness" (or any other
racial identity) is not simply about skin-color, the idea of "race" in
cyberspace won't seem as weird.


Art

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:36:55 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Art McGee <amcgee@IGC.ORG>
Subject:      [01/16/1999]: Culture, Class, and Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91.990117040004.18883F-100000@igc.apc.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

[The date in the subject indicates the last time this list was updated]

[If you forward this list to others, please leave my name and e-address]
[on it, both for proper attribution and so that people can send updates]

Greetings,

I don't agree with all the conclusions, but listed below are some very
interesting and important resources, dealing with the intersection of
ethnicity, culture, class, poverty, computers, and cyberspace.

Even if you're busy, please be sure to at least browse them.

By the way, many of the links lead to original material, not the
summarized articles with similar titles that you may have read
in a newspaper or magazine.

---

[If you forward this list to others, please leave my name and e-address]
[on it, both for proper attribution and so that people can send updates]

[Ethnicity and Culture Section]

cy.Rev #4: Technological Revolution & Prospects
for Black Liberation in the 21st Century
<http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/E-journals/CyRev/cyrev4.html#tech>

Atlantic Monthly 99.01:
Technology Versus African-Americans
<http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/aftech.htm>

First Monday 3.11: Africa Connected
<http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue3_11/hall/>

Virtual University/Segregated Highway?
The Politics of Connectivity
<http://www.meg.uct.ac.za/martin/paper3.htm>

Brillo Magazine, Issue Number 3, "The Invasion"
Resisting Erase-ism on the 'Net
<http://www.virago-net.com/brillo/erasism.htm>

CTHEORY: Global Algorithm 1.10:
Deregulation/Globalisation: The Loss of Cultural Diversity?
<http://www.ctheory.com/ga1.10-deregulation.html>

Buying into the Computer Age:
A Look at Hispanic Families
<http://www.cgu.edu/inst/aw1-1.html>

UnderCurrent #4:
Virtual Whiteness and Narrative Diversity
<http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~ucurrent/uc4/4-lockard.html>

Brillo Magazine, Issue Number 2, "A Bug in the Wetware"
Buggin' in and Out: Eye Dialectal Nightmares in Cyberspace
<http://www.virago-net.com/brillo/No2/email.htm>

Brillo Magazine, Issue Number 2, "A Bug in the Wetware"
In Bed with the Devil
<http://www.virago-net.com/brillo/No2/rant.htm>

The Unbearable Whiteness of Being:
African American Critical Theory and Cyberculture
<http://www.kalital.com/Text/Writing/Whitenes.html>

Cultural Uses of New, Networked Internet Information and
Communication Technologies: Implications for US Latino Identities
<http://sunsite.unc.edu/jlillie/thesis.html>

Bridging the Digital Divide:
The Impact of Race on Computer Access and Internet Use
<http://www2000.ogsm.vanderbilt.edu/papers/race/science.html>

What it Means to be Black in Cyberspace
<http://www.panix.com/~mbowen/cz/identity/blakCMC.html>

Cyborg Diaspora:
Virtual Imagined Community
<http://ernie.bgsu.edu/~radhik/sanov.html>

Race In/For Cyberspace:
Identity Tourism and Racial Passing on the Internet
<http://acorn.grove.iup.edu/en/workdays/Nakamura.html>

American Emissaries to Africa:
>From John Barlow via James Bond to James Baldwin and Back
<http://www.factory.org/nettime/archive/1292.html>

What Color is the Net?
<http://www.hotwired.com/netizen/97/11/index2a.html>

WIRED 3.12:
Idees Fortes - Race in Cyberspace?
<http://www.wired.com/wired/3.12/departments/berger.if.html>

Book Review:
The African-American Resource Guide to the Internet
<http://www.otal.umd.edu/~rccs/books/battle.html>

Black Pioneers of the Internet
<http://www.delphi.com/blackpioneers/>

Forsaken Geographies:
Cyberspace and the New World 'Other'
<http://eng.hss.cmu.edu/internet/oguibe/>
<http://arts.usf.edu/~ooguibe/madrid.htm>

On Digital 'Third Worlds':
An interview with Olu Oguibe
<http://arts.usf.edu/~ooguibe/springer.htm>

The Virtual Barrio @ The Other Frontier
(or the Chicano inerneta)
<http://www.telefonica.es/fat/egomez.html>

Cultural Survival Quarterly:
The Internet and Indigenous Communities
<http://www.cs.org/csq/csqinternet.html>

Nils Zurawskis' Ethnicity and Culture in Cyberspace Papers
<http://www.uni-muenster.de/Soziologie/Home/zurawski/papers.html>

[The next link is to some comments I made a few years ago]

AFROAM-L Archives - February 1995:
Race, Ethnicity, Culture, and Cyberspace
<http://www.afrinet.net/~hallh/afrotalk/afrofeb95/0796.html>

[Below is a great essay (not specifically dealing with cyberspace), that
 discusses multiple identities from an apparently non-European perspective]

The Multiple Self:
Exploring Between and Beyond Modernity and Postmodernity
<http://www1.umn.edu/irp/multiple.htm>

[Lastly, a link to a resource page that contains general and
 gender-based papers on net sociology/identity]

The Media and Communication Studies Site
Resource Page for Gender, Ethnicity & Class: Social and Personal Identity
<http://www.aber.ac.uk/~dgc/gender05.html>

[This compilation is (c) 1998-1999 Arthur R. McGee <amcgee@igc.org>]

---

[If you forward this list to others, please leave my name and e-address]
[on it, both for proper attribution and so that people can send updates]

[Class and Poverty Section]

cy.Rev: A Journal of Cybernetic Revolution,
Sustainable Socialism and Radical Democracy
<http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/E-journals/CyRev/>

MIT Technology Review - January/February 1999
The Peoples Computer: The Rich Peoples Computer?
<http://www.techreview.com/articles/jan99/dertouzos.htm>

CTHEORY: Global Algorithm 1.4:
The Theory of the Virtual Class
<http://www.ctheory.com/ga1.4-theory_virtual.html>

The Internet and Poverty:
Real Help or Real Hype?
<http://www.oneworld.org/panos/briefing/interpov.htm>

Possible Roles for Electronic Community Networks and Participatory
Development Strategies in Access Programs for Poor Neighborhoods
<http://www.unc.edu/~jlillie/310.html>

High Technology and Low-Income Communities:
Prospects for the Positive Use of Advanced Information Technology
<http://web.mit.edu/sap/www/high-low/>

Losing Ground Bit by Bit:
Low-Income Communities in the Information Age
<http://www.benton.org/Library/Low-Income/>

Falling Through the Net II:
New Data on the Digital Divide
<http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/net2/>

Impact of CTCnet Affiliates:
Findings from a National Survey of Users of Community Technology Centers
<http://www.ctcnet.org/impact98.htm>

Cybersociology Magazine:
Issue 3 - Digital Third Worlds
<http://members.aol.com/Cybersoc/issue3.html>

[This compilation is (c) 1998-1999 Arthur R. McGee <amcgee@igc.org>]

---

[If you forward this list to others, please leave my name and e-address]
[on it, both for proper attribution and so that people can send updates]

[Gender and Sexuality Section]

[In this section, I'm keeping the focus on Women and GLBT people of color,
 which is why you aren't seeing as many listings as you might expect]

The Cyber Sisters Club:
Using the Internet to Bridge the Technology Gap with Inner City Girls
<http://www.thejournal.com/magazine/98/dec/feat01.html>

Womenspace Spring 98: Black Women on the Net
<http://www.womenspace.ca/vol33e.html>

Brillo Magazine, Number 1, "Armed and Dangerous"
Like Fish to W.A.T.E.R.
<http://www.virago-net.com/brillo/No1/water.htm>

Brillo Magazine, Number 1, "Armed and Dangerous"
Turned On, Plugged In, Left Out
<http://www.virago-net.com/brillo/No1/pluggedi.htm>

[This compilation is (c) 1998-1999 Arthur R. McGee <amcgee@igc.org>]

---

[Definitive Quote Section]

Lastly, in case you're wondering why I even bothered to put this list
together, one of my "white" colleagues said it better than I ever could:

"We're resisting the tired-but-still-commonly-accepted idea that the
virtual world provides a somehow "level" playing field, in which race,
gender, [and] culture(s) no longer matter. We think that such ideas are
based on the false notion that there's a normative white male middle-class
culture to which all folks can gain access, now that the barriers imposed
by the physical body have been miraculously removed. We want [to see]
essays, articles, and examples of work which show that the "politics of
identity" is alive and well on the internet, and that instead of regressing
to a sort of Eisenhowerian procession of the bland leading the bland, there
are people out there using electronic technology to emphasize and celebrate
and motivate and defend their own communities and cultural ideals."

"There's been a lot of talk (mostly by white men) about the "liberating"
potential of the internet and of virtual spaces.  What they usually mean
is a liberation *from* the body, to some kind of higher plane. But we're
interested in how folks whose bodies are usually threatened by the power
structure (nonwhite folks, women, poor people, queer folks) are using the
internet as a platform for making themselves more visible (a liberation
*of* the body), and how that connects to other contemporary activist
movements."

            Kali Tal
            Lecturer, University of Arizona


[This compilation is (c) 1998-1999 Arthur R. McGee <amcgee@igc.org>]

[If you forward this list to others, please leave my name and e-address]
[on it, both for proper attribution and so that people can send updates]

---

Art McGee

--------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Organization Consultant    Institute for Global Communications  |
|  SEIU Local 790                                   IRS 501(c)(3)  |
|  http://www.igc.org/                             amcgee@igc.org  |
--------------------------------------------------------------------

New Yorker Cartoon (Internet Savvy Dog):

"On the Internet, no one knows that you're a dog."

Art McGee (Internet Ignorant Dog added to cartoon):

"What's wrong with being a dog?"

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:09:25 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: [01/16/1999]: Culture, Class, and Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91.990117133348.13296A-100000@igc.apc.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Art,

Thanks for your informative list.  I have not referred to the
articles, though if my ignorance shows here, I am willing to be
directed to those that seem a good place for me to start.

I found the definitive quote interesting.  What i took from it is
that while it might seem we are all equal here, because colour
and (I guess gender and species (dog)) are invisible, this only
reveals our narrow conception of race to the visible outward
*bodily* aspects, ignoring the cultural class and social aspects,
and particularly in this Psyber forum the soul aspect.  Makes
sense.

The language, the Net, and particular nooks of it might feel like
a white middle class neighbourhood, probably in America.  That
feeling might be right or wrong, assuming that there is some sort
of way to match the feeling here to "reality".  Cheryl recently
called this (ie this particular Psyber-L nook, a weird
neighbourhood.  I wonder what sort of
socio-economic-racial-national 'hood it feels like?  Or is it out
in space?  One thing is for sure we write english!

I listened to Neil Stephenson (Snow Crash) give a talk last year,
and wrote about it in a condensed email...

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9805&L=psyber-l&P=R15611&X=3C3F3243A6152AE9C7

His point was that in rl we have to be "multi everything" and
hence we get bland culture.  Harvard should change its motto from
Veritas to "Whatever".  In Cyberspace we can create narrower
niches.

I wonder if he is right?  I think in Psyber-L we have
consistently remained in a niche that will endlessly muse on the
soul & value and reflect on process.  I think that has been
possible here longer and with more intensity than I have known
elsewhere, perhaps.

To be in a niche here, utterly, can be done by living "here",
while perhaps living "there".

But does that lead us to deception?  If we say we are Black then
we are Black?  If i say I am a woman then I am a woman? We have
just as you arrived been looking at identity and deception in the
gender area. If I say I am a psychotherapist, then should that
match with something I also say in rl?

Complex questions... in NZ we have had a Maori Electoral role,
and that was simply for self-identified Maoris, so the notion
does have validity beyond cs.  I have called some people "her"
and "she" because they have identified as female.

I have been writing about Wings of Desire, the movie, and City of
Angels, he hollywood remake.  The point about those movies for me
is that a real kiss, a connection with a real person is worth
trading for eternal life without it.  Is cyberspace we are like
angels, we can see but not touch, though we can talk about touch
more exquisitely then we tend to do out there.

Where am I leading with this... that the most valuable things in
life are virtual... our bonds that are created via "identifying"
... as in "belonging", being in love, married, on the one hand...
on the other hand a rose by any name would smell as sweet, and
its true worth is in the smell, the touch.

I am in a mode of rhetorical questioning... not because i am
afraid to make bold statements, but I really don't have a bold
knowing here.  I have not put a picture of myself in the web,
because i have liked being in such a virtual mode.  There has
been a gap between my rl and the virtual life... but it is
closing.  My friends and people here are now putting pictures and
voice on the net, it is diminishing its angelic quality... sadly,
(apology for the fence sitting) on the one hand, but it is
exciting on the other that we can blend f2f email voicemail video
etc to enrich our being.


Enough for now.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:20:09 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Welcome Art McGee
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Art,
I think you've brought an interesting topic for conversation into this
group and asked us (me) to think about some things I haven't really
thought much about.. rather than be theorectical I'll start from my
experience...

I just moved from one area of the country to another. As best as I can
tell there are three predominant cultures here...white, middle-class
Christian, white middle class New Agers (some overlap there but not too
much) and young affluent (but living poor) atheletes. I'm white, middle
class and not really any of the rest.

Before I moved, when I was in the visiting/considering stage, I would go
back to my lunch table at work and say, "There aren't any blacks there,
there aren't any Asians, all the queers are in the closet because it
isn't safe. Do I want to live there?" I say this because my lunch table
was comprised of 3-4 black women, 1 Latino, three gay guys, one Asian MD,
one Muslim MD, and occiasionally one Jewish woman. We made alot of jokes
about how they all could rent a bus (we were into taking bus trips) and
come to visit only they'd have to arrive at night so no one would see
them. Only we knew we were only half joking. I tell you this so I can ask
this question: when I am with blacks, I start feeling like a sister, when
I'm in England I notice that I start speaking with a different accent,
when I'm in Italy I start gesticulating, in India, my head starts bobbing
and weaving and I say "maybe" alot.  So is this what you are talking
about? Certainly I don't become these "races" and yet I immediately
absorb some of the culture which surrounds me. Why? Because there are
bodies and voices in front of me... voices that I can here and gestures
and activities that I can see... don't you think all (most?) people do
that to some degree..the unconscious wish (need?) to fit to whereever
they are? I think this need or want gets thwarted somewhat on the Net
because we can't see or hear, etc. and instead we are forced so to speak
to just be our personalities...maybe I don't have enough experience on
the Net but I have found it much easier to be f2f with people than here
beacuse I have less to help me locate in space here..I'm always thrown by
uopn 'myself" (whatever that is!)

I'm not sure I even know how to talk about this...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:38:41 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [01/16/1999]: Culture, Class, and Cyberspace

On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:09:25 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:

>Art,
>
>Thanks for your informative list.
<snip>
Nancy writes:
N:  Art, I respect your need to sift through the sociologic writing on race
and related issues tho I don't any longer share it.  A large part of my
undergraduate studies was in this field and for a long time I belonged to
Unitarian Churches which were crusading in this area.  I think the core
image in my leaving that interest was just after I got my BS, out of
curiousity, I attended a ku klux klan meeting.  Very little happened. Lots of
dull speaches.  Lots of pickup truck with rifles racked across their back
windows, few women, lots of blue jeaned arrogant slouches.
  The thing that stood out for me was the visibly involved presence of one
of the 'best' of my son's boy scout troop.  He was an Eagle scout with almost
more badges than he had chest to display.  They glittered like fallen stars
when he took his place on the podium.
   I went home with no sociological curiousity left...though plenty of
psychological curiousity about what it might take to warp an individual
so badly.
   I have not idea why they burn crosses but it seems altogether proper
since they are not maintaining the 'tension of opposites' and they are
pretty much breaking with the teachings of all the great religions.
   (As someone else said) I'd never thought about the color of ones soul.
Not having thought I guess I assumed it to be white (not pink or light beige
like the skin of the average Caucasian.)  Sort of like Casper the Friendly
Ghost.
    I'll be interested to see what you present here about 'Black Psyche.'

Walter wrote:
> a rose by any name would smell as sweet, and
>its true worth is in the smell, the touch.

N: Can't resist putting in here a haiku by a friend of mine, Peggy Lyles:

   twilight
   rain-dark buds
   becoming scent

>Walter continues:
 i have liked being in such a virtual mode.
>
  Me too, ditching all the stereotypical projection based on looks, voice
tones, occupation...etc.
  I wonder if Art (if he hasn't already) won't treat himself to both
experiences for comparision's sake.
>
Nancy
>_____________________________________________________

>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:46:38 +0200
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Art McGee
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91.990117040004.18883F-100000@igc.apc.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sorry Art,

As you thought, I'm  overwhelmed by the work, and indeed, I didn't  scanned
your list to the end.

I'm not a very postmodern person, my virtual and real life identities are
uniform. Once I wrote a novel as if I were a man. It got a good press, but
I think that it is not a good book, because  I don't really know how it is
to be a man in real life, how he feels under his skin,  was it black or white.

When I was  young - thirty years ago -  Fanon's book "Les Damnes de la
Terre" (I don't know what it's name is in English, I read it in Finnish)
made a great impact on me. As did Cleaver's Soul on Fire, and James
Baldwin's novels. I met Baldwin in the international writer's conference
here in Finland at the end of sixties, and talked with him. but I can't
remember what.

Now I must hurry back to work.

Cheers
Anita





At 13:09 17.1.1999 -0800, you wrote:
>Message 1:
>
>> From: Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
>>
>> Welcome Art, you introduced an interesting topic to the Psyber-list: is
>> the psyche colored. I have always thought that the psyche is transparent.
>> But it is not at all so!  I found some Web-site addresses regarding this
>> topic from the Cybermind-list:
>
>I know that you are probably busy, but did you happen to notice that *my
>name* was on the compilation of resources that you saw on CyberMind?  %-)
>
>I'd really appreciate it if when you forward that list in whole or in part
>in the future, you make sure that proper attribution/credit is given to
>me, since the list is my original creation. The reason is that the list is
>part of some continuing research I'm doing, as well as being a sort of
>statement, so it's important that people understand the proper context of
>why the list was created and who created it. Thank you.
>
>I'll send a copy of the complete list here, so that the rest of the folks
>will be up to speed.
>
>>> I am not an academic, but a layperson, who, being self-identified as
>>> Black, is intensely interested in these issues.
>>
>> What do you mean "being self-identified"?
>
>Racial identity is not solely about a fixed skin-color but is an
>ever-changing, amalgamous social construct based partly on external ethnic
>categorization, and partly on internal cultural affinity. Because of this,
>the term "self-identified" is used to "fix" my identity in the current
>context, based upon what I consider myself to be. In other words, If I say
>I'm Black, then I'm Black, even if my skin appears very light to the
>casual observer, or if I don't happen to be able to rap or dance very
>well. ;-)
>
>This concept comes from postmodern cultural theory, which has filtered
>into the everyday vernacular of racial discussion.
>
>
>Message 2:
>
>> From: Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
>>
>> At least, Art, thank you for passing along the name of these two books,
>> which I will try to locate.  And, I would also like very much to hear more
>> of your thoughts on race in cyberspace.  How are they similar/different
>> gender? *Does* Black Soul translate in cyberspace?  How significant is it,
>> how much does it impact on-line relationships?
>
>I think the complete list of resources I'm about to send will help you to
>better understand some of these issues.
>
>Offhand I would say that because identity is partly cultural or a state of
>mind, it does translate into cyberspace. You can't see me, but the way
>that I interact with you, and the way that I view the world is influenced
>partly by how I self-identify. Even though cyberspace removes the
>skin-color component, in my view, the most important component (my
>conscious and unconscious mind) remains.
>
>As more people come to better understand that "Blackness" (or any other
>racial identity) is not simply about skin-color, the idea of "race" in
>cyberspace won't seem as weird.
>
>
>Art
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>
>

anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/9661

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:11:33 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Loretta Kemsley <scorpio@ARTNET.NET>
Subject:      Re: [01/16/1999]: Culture, Class, and Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91.990117133348.13296A-100000@igc.apc.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

Art wrote:


>Lastly, in case you're wondering why I even bothered to put this list

>together, one of my "white" colleagues said it better than I ever
could:

>

>"We're resisting the tired-but-still-commonly-accepted idea that the

>virtual world provides a somehow "level" playing field, in which
race,

>gender, [and] culture(s) no longer matter. We think that such ideas
are

>based on the false notion that there's a normative white male
middle-class

>culture to which all folks can gain access, now that the barriers
imposed

>by the physical body have been miraculously removed. (snip) But we're

>interested in how folks whose bodies are usually threatened by the
power

>structure (nonwhite folks, women, poor people, queer folks) are using
the

>internet as a platform for making themselves more visible (a
liberation

>*of* the body), and how that connects to other contemporary activist

>movements."

>

>            Kali Tal

>            Lecturer, University of Arizona


Art,


Welcome and thank you for the wonderful list. It will provide good
reading over the next period of time. As a white woman, I don't have
the feeling of 'other' in my racial identity, but it is deeply embedded
in my gender identity. The above quote reminded me of previous readings
on gender in Cyberspace. These are my thoughts after rereading them:


Keeping the Internet free of the ingrained models of hierarchical
control is necessary for us to establish our community and artistic
styles in the domain of Cyberspace. W no longer have to wait for the
power structures to allow access. The Internet has become a catalyst of
networking power and is allowing us to create our own structures of
importance and relevancy.


Cultural convergence, oft described as a merging of art and technology,
is offering opportunities to break out of prescribed roles. More than
gender or race is up for grabs. Our experiences have long been denied
or undervalued, as have the attempts to move away from white
patriarchal contexts. Paterson commented, "Transgressing order and
linear organization of information, cyberfeminists recognize the
opportunity to redefine 'reality,' on our terms and in our interest and
realize that the electronic communications infrastructure or 'matrix'
may be the ideal instrument for anew breed of feminists to pick up and
play."


It is the chaos of the Web which allows us to achieve the power to
define it to our own satisfaction.  Broader society values, unequal as
they are, influence the social perceptions of legitimate and powerful
web sites in the online world.  Surrounding and outnumbering the monied
sites of big business are sites constructed by amateurs fast becoming
adept social rebels.  While taking advantage of the "traditional"
values which are important to the hierarchical thought, we can also
incorporate values of our own by rejecting the status quo and devising
other methods of valuing web site content which are less able to be
quantified by abstract formulas. (December, 1996)


Thus the idea of 'self' in this realm is no longer fixed, having become
as nimble as the imagination, unstable and infinitely "morphable."
Identity,no matter how concrete the experience, is always constructed,
never innate. (McAdams, 1996) Sofoulis noted "Women artists in
technological media demonstrate that ambivalence and critical distance
allow new technologies to be creatively appropriated for purposes,
projects and meanings quite other than those for which they are
designed, perhaps quite other than the agendas followed by people who
feel entirely at home in these media."


As a forum for the growth of culture, the Internet offers great
potential and allows production via our own principles of
communication.  However, considering the differences in access,
combined with experiences of censorship and intimidation, the Internet
cannot be viewed as the ultimate means to utopia. Although it is not a
completely democratic sphere of communication, the Internet is still of
major importance to the future of our empowerment and allows for
creative communication strategies. (Mallory 1997)


As Shade wrote:  "Ensuring equitable access to the Internet should be a
prerogative of this information age....This means that we must pay
close attention to the metaphors that people will use and see in this
new world, so that they won't exclude women, or include them in
undesirable ways....The world of Cyberspace is one which is being
shaped daily by the millions of interactions on it, and we can
contribute much to these exchanges."


We can go on functioning 'as if' Woman or Race is still our location
but are not limited to it as a fixed or compulsory standard. We can
treat femininity and racial identity as an option: a set of available
poses, costumes rich in history and social power relations.  In
Cyberspace, we can simultaneously assert and deconstruct Woman or Race
as a signifying practice, thus creating the new by revisiting and
burning up the old.  Braidotti recognized this potential for confusing
upheaval and its effects upon society as a whole. "We rather need more
complexity, multiplicity, simultaneity and we need to rethink gender,
class and race in the pursuit of these multiple, complex differences.
We also need gentleness, compassion and humour to pull through the
ruptures and raptures of our times."


I am aware my status as an American affords privileges which transcend
those found in other countries. My soul-searching question is: what are
my resultant obligations?  I cannot speak for others nor should I quash
my own voice because of that fact. Yet I do feel an obligation to be
sure others are heard, without knowing the means of doing so. Our
ezine, "Moondance: Celebrating Creative Women," was established with
this in mind, but the practical effect has been less than we had hoped
because of the difficulty in recruiting writers and editors from other
cultures.  With access an uncertain commodity, I don't see this
changing in the near future.


The links I am providing are a year old. I apologize in advance if they
are no longer valid.


Lore


Braidotti, Rosi, http://www.let.ruu.nl/womens_studies/rosi/cyberfem.htm
 Cyberfeminism with a difference. Internet essay, Universiteit
Utrecht.


December, John (1996).
http://www.december.com/cmc/mag/1996/mar/toc.html The last link.
<underline>CMC Magazine</underline>, March 1, 1996.


Mallon, Bridget (1997).  http://www.carleton.ca/~bmallon/a%3awomen.htm
Women making meaning: Moving through the cracks, Internet essay.


McAdams, Mindy (1996). http://www.december.com/cmc/mag/1996/mar/ Gender
without bodies, <underline>CMC Magazine</underline>, March 1,1996.


Paterson, Nancy (1997). http://echonyc.com:70/0/Cul/Cyber/paterson
Cyberfeminism, Internet essay on Echo BBS, Culture reference work.



Shade,  Leslie Regan (1993).
http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/gender/leslie_regan_shade.txt  Gender issues
in computer networking.  Speech given at: Community Networking: the
International Free-Net Conference, Carleton University, Ottawa, CANADA.



Sofoulis, Zoe (1995).  http://206.251.6.116/geekgirl/003broad/zoe.html
Cyberfeminism:  The world, the flesh, and the woman-machine
relationship.  Excerpt from a paper presented at the 1995 conference of
the Australian Council for Computers in Education, Perth, July 9-13.









Loretta Kemsley

President


Women Artists and Writers International

Publisher of MOONDANCE: Celebrating Creative Women

Our vision, our wisdom, our strength

http://www.moondance.org

For information about WAWI: mailto:wawi@moondance.org


Writer, Editor and Editorial Coach

Personal Portfolio: Women's Writings

http://www.moondance.org/lore/portfolio.htm

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:23:11 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Art McGee <amcgee@IGC.ORG>
Subject:      [01/17/1999]: Culture, Class and Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.6.32.19990118184638.007ad910@megabaud.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I now have my own page up for the links:

http://www.igc.org/amcgee/e-race.html

You should point to that instead of creating separate
pages or waiting for a list update. Thanks.


Art McGee

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:01:06 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      The Most Valuable things....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter, all,

Do you really mean to say that the most valuable things in life are
virtual. If yes, then you have to explain virtual for me because I don't
get it...I kinow a woman who was in an accident once and the nerves to
her lips were severed. She sued for emotional trauma because she would
never again be able to  feel a kiss upon her lips...she won a large
settlement because the jury understood just how valuable a thing she had
lost..not unlike Nicholas Cage in the recent LA angel movie...

The most valuable things in life are virtual...please explain!

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:10:40 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: The Most Valuable things....
In-Reply-To:  <36A4AC42.2563@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:01:06 -0800, you, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>,
wrote:

>Walter, all,
>
>Do you really mean to say that the most valuable things in life are
>virtual. If yes, then you have to explain virtual for me because I don't
>get it...I kinow a woman who was in an accident once and the nerves to
>her lips were severed. She sued for emotional trauma because she would
>never again be able to  feel a kiss upon her lips...she won a large
>settlement because the jury understood just how valuable a thing she had
>lost..not unlike Nicholas Cage in the recent LA angel movie...
>
>The most valuable things in life are virtual...please explain!

What if she had lost the ability to feel emotions?  I don't know how a jury
would award damages, but I would be inclined to give her a large settlement.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:53:02 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: The most valuable thing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne,

I think there are millions of people walking around on the planet who are
unable to feel emotions...I used to be one of them....

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:37:55 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: The most valuable thing
In-Reply-To:  <36A4F0AE.549D@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:53:02 -0800, you, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>,
wrote:

>JoAnne,
>
>I think there are millions of people walking around on the planet who are
>unable to feel emotions...I used to be one of them....

How did you get out?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:44:55 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: The most valuable thing...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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JoAnne,

Years of therapy...more years of inner work..more years..a commitment to
being as alive as I could be...all springing from horrible unhappiness.
The details are like everyone else's who undertakes to do therapy.

End of story...

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:24:44 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Art McGee <amcgee@IGC.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Race in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <36A35F39.25F8@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

> when I am with blacks, I start feeling like a sister, when
> I'm in England I notice that I start speaking with a different accent,
> when I'm in Italy I start gesticulating, in India, my head starts bobbing
> and weaving and I say "maybe" alot.  So is this what you are talking
> about? Certainly I don't become these "races" and yet I immediately
> absorb some of the culture which surrounds me.

Nothing wrong with that. Everyone does that.

I'm talking about "race" as a primary identity, not an essentialist or
exclusionary single indentity.

I would do the same things you do, but I'd still be Black. I'd still have
a certain base from which I experience and absorb those other cultures.


Art

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:35:13 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Art McGee <amcgee@IGC.ORG>
Subject:      Re: [01/16/1999]: Culture, Class, and Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1999011811391309@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>    (As someone else said) I'd never thought about the color of ones soul.
> Not having thought I guess I assumed it to be white (not pink or light beige
> like the skin of the average Caucasian.)  Sort of like Casper the Friendly
> Ghost.

Neither have I. Remember, I'm not talking about simplistic skin tone, I'm
talking about a combination of that along with culture and a state of
mind. "Jazz is more important than Classical music." That's an example of
a worldview and cultural perspective that defines me, not the color of my
skin, but my perspective is informed by what I experience having this
color of skin.

In other words, skin color is more important in how your personal
experience with a particular tone shapes how you think, and not the skin
itself. Understand?

>> i have liked being in such a virtual mode.
>
> Me too, ditching all the stereotypical projection based on looks, voice
> tones, occupation...etc.
> I wonder if Art (if he hasn't already) won't treat himself to both
> experiences for comparision's sake.

Pardon?

One more time, for clarity:

The Multiple Self:
Exploring Between and Beyond Modernity and Postmodernity
<http://www1.umn.edu/irp/multiple.htm>


Black people know more about being flexible and non-stereotypical than
anyone else. It's how we survive.


Art

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:07:44 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: The Most Valuable things....
In-Reply-To:  <39a2f184.511843962@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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Cheryl

> Do you really mean to say that the most valuable things in life are
> virtual. If yes, then you have to explain virtual for me because I don't
> get it...

Well, I am reflecting on this, and have no real answer.  Everything is
valuable i guess.

But take your example of the kiss.  It is not just the touch and the
sensation make its value.  Love & consent make all the difference, and at
least consent is an abstract thing.  Agreements, pledges, causes, poetry,
love letters, words! they sort of make us human.

Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:47:01 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      The most valuable thing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Walter, all

Words...are real because they carry energy..that makes everything real, I
guess, by that definition. The language will evolve..this is the stuff
for philosophers.


Up early today..have already made a trip to the new house to carry over
boxes and plants. Carpeting comes tomorrow and Friday - I move in on
Sunday. I've been busy.......... but happy.

:)

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:40:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [01/20/1999]: Culture, Class, and Cyberspace

On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:35:13 -0800, Art McGee <amcgee@IGC.ORG> wrote:

>>    (As someone else said) I'd never thought about the color of ones soul.
>> Not having thought I guess I assumed it to be white (not pink or light beige
>> like the skin of the average Caucasian.)  Sort of like Casper the Friendly
>> Ghost.
>
>Neither have I. Remember, I'm not talking about simplistic skin tone, I'm
>talking about a combination of that along with culture and a state of
>mind. "Jazz is more important than Classical music." That's an example of
>a worldview and cultural perspective that defines me, not the color of my
>skin, but my perspective is informed by what I experience having this
>color of skin.
>
N: Well, I got sorta interested in the 'color of' various souls. Just
for imagination's sake.
   But to return to what I can understand of you viewpoint...
   Seems to me what you say would have to be divided up a lot.  There'd
   be general societal projections (Jazz is more important to whom?  And
   says who?  There is probably classical jazz.  What country does the
   who live in?)  Then there'd be the introjects.  How much does the individual
   'black' allow in, allow to become part of himself? And so on...

>In other words, skin color is more important in how your personal
>experience with a particular tone shapes how you think, and not the skin
>itself. Understand?
>
>>> i have liked being in such a virtual mode.
>>
>> Me too, ditching all the stereotypical projection based on looks, voice
>> tones, occupation...etc.
>> I wonder if Art (if he hasn't already) won't treat himself to both
>> experiences for comparision's sake.
>
>Pardon?
>
>One more time, for clarity:

N: I was wondering if you had participated in stuff on the net, like
   discussion groups, without stating your race, as well as with stating
   your race.  I suppose for real validity it would almost have to be
   like the gender experiment, that is two persona in the same group
   (as different net societies seem to develop different culture within
   themselves)  Seems to me it would interesting to do that and compare
   ones inner feelings.  I mean you, the individual Art, are more than
   a partical of the 'black aggregate'.  To go on the net without stating
   race might be one way of reality checking how much of your feelings
   and peoples reactions to you are based on the individual you have become
   and how much has to do with the aggregate.

   Nancy
   Just wondering again
>
>The Multiple Self:
>Exploring Between and Beyond Modernity and Postmodernity
><http://www1.umn.edu/irp/multiple.htm>
>
>
>Black people know more about being flexible and non-stereotypical than
>anyone else. It's how we survive.
>
>
>Art
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:49:55 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Blindness
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ben, Art and all,

I have been working to catch up on the threads here since I was away and find
the infusion of different beingness which you Ben and Art bring
particularly thoughtprovoking in juxtaposition to our dialogues...

My first response to Ben's talking computer which I have had no experience
with was to worry about my spelling and what he would hear...egad

In our dialogue here there are scattered musings about the "blindness" of
this medium which definitely comes from a sighted perspective...I myself
have enjoyed experiencing the lack of visual cues and the richness of tone
and perspective and cultural difference...I will be interested, Ben, in how
this medium is experienced by you...here goes an assumption...the cues you
experience based in your blindness are not visual, meaning you're not
experiencing color, or body language, etc...wonder if how your orient to
your sightless world assists you here in our mostly non visual world of
dialogue...

Many more questions arising...when I can organize them

Regards,
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1999 04:00:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Blindness
In-Reply-To:  <v01550112b2cb60c8b899@[207.54.160.107]>
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Judith,

The blindness is now complete as Ben has signed off the list a few
days ago well before your post arrived.

We can always see who is here with the words:

Review Psyber-L

sent to the listserv that keeps track of our mailing list:

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:51:48 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: [01/16/1999]: Culture, Class, and Cyberspace
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 99-01-19 22:41:30 EST, you write:

<<
 The Multiple Self:
 Exploring Between and Beyond Modernity and Postmodernity
 <http://www1.umn.edu/irp/multiple.htm>

Art (and Anita), thanks for the many references you've provided.  I located
*The Souls of Black Folks* (which I've begun reading) and *Black Skin White
Masks*.  Last week I visited some of the URLs you gave, too.  Any/all of what
I'm able to read has been thought provoking.  I think I've already absorbed
some of it and it has increased my awareness of factors (influences,
understanding of who one is?) in my rl work.

 << Black people know more about being flexible and non-stereotypical than
 anyone else. It's how we survive.    >>

I can see truth in your statement.  However, do you think this knowledge
extends to an awareness and recognition that black people see that others who
are not black may also not fit into stereotypes?

IMO, we're talking about assumptions, projections, and transference, key
elements of cyberspace and Psyber-L dialogue.

I guess what bothers me about your statement about stereotypization above is
that I suspect it stereotypes me since I am not black.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:51:50 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 99-01-18 11:37:45 EST, you write:

<<   (As someone else said) I'd never thought about the color of ones soul.
 Not having thought I guess I assumed it to be white (not pink or light beige
 like the skin of the average Caucasian.)  Sort of like Casper the Friendly
 Ghost. >>

I like the Casper the Friendly Ghost image, Nancy.

I think more of soul as transparent, or maybe a color no one (alive) knows.
My image is that it is sort of like an atom, within which maybe contains an
entire universe.  The psychological stuff, gender, race, all that, is not
really a part of the soul.  These effect each person's existence and maybe the
direction and journey of the soul, but not the soul itself.

My vision is that the soul is the only element of each person that is actually
*equal* to all others.  Instead of *all men are created equal* I would say
*all souls are created equal.*

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:53:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls

On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:51:50 EST, Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM> wrote:

>In a message dated 99-01-18 11:37:45 EST, you write:
>
><<   (As someone else said) I'd never thought about the color of ones soul.
> Not having thought I guess I assumed it to be white (not pink or light beige
> like the skin of the average Caucasian.)  Sort of like Casper the Friendly
> Ghost. >>
>
>I like the Casper the Friendly Ghost image, Nancy.
>
>I think more of soul as transparent, or maybe a color no one (alive) knows.
>My image is that it is sort of like an atom, within which maybe contains an
>entire universe.  The psychological stuff, gender, race, all that, is not
>really a part of the soul.  These effect each person's existence and maybe the
>direction and journey of the soul, but not the soul itself.

N:  Maybe they are the color of ectplasm but acquiring iridescene
as they mature in wise experience...
>
>My vision is that the soul is the only element of each person that is actually
>*equal* to all others.  Instead of *all men are created equal* I would say
>*all souls are created equal.*
N:  Ummm...  I donno.  Would a 'new soul' be quite the equal of an
'old soul?'  I've always thought that the equality had to come in
what it evoked... i.e. all souls are equally entitled to consideration...
Something like that.
>
>Anyway, just my thoughts.
>
>Sheryl
>
Nancy
speculating
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:07:52 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
In-Reply-To:  <434d4dce.36a9fe26@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>I think more of soul as transparent, or maybe a color no one (alive) knows.

like the sea.

the sea which is neither
blue nor green
for that which it truly is
can never be seen.

               _
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
                ( miles )

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:44:22 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.6.32.19990125220752.009178e0@paradise.net.nz>
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Miles, All,

> the sea which is neither
> blue nor green
> for that which it truly is
> can never be seen.

Beautiful.

May I move away from your concise poetic approach, which is never my
forte to quoting Wolfgang Giegerich.

| Here I would like to introduce a phrase coined by Goethe:
| offenbare Geheimnis,' the ,apparent (or blatant) mystery'. What
| Goethe had in mind was not a mystery or secret that had been
| revealed. He meant something that even though it is public
| knowledge remains a mystery. Perhaps one could say that precisely
| because it is in the limelight, it is not recognized as a
| mystery; it becomes the Stone rejected by the builders. The
| mystery character is obscured because the phenomenon is so
| exoteric, so apparent. The exoteric is the best concealment, the
| best shelter of the esoteric mystery of the soul. This parallels
| Jung's view that the ego, which allegedly and fictitiously is
| what is best known and most apparent, in reality is an
| unfathomably dark body (CW14: 129).

from his article on the net:

http://www.cgjung.com/giegerich1.html

The Opposition of 'Individual' and 'Collective'
- Psychology's Basic Fault:
*Reflections On Today's Magnum Opus of the Soul*

I have been studying the whole article and it takes a bit of doing and
I am also catching up on old discussions of it. It is an important
document to me, as it raises the questions about soul and technology,
the world and cyberspace.

That is not why I quote it here... that is to add to the notion of the
soul as a mystery... and because of the words at the end of the
quote... *dark body*, which is particularly intriguing as it quotes
Jung referring to *not* the "Shadow" but to the "Ego"! It reminded me
that traditional talk about the soul does use colour language... the
dark night of the soul, the Shadow.  The soul it seems loves the dark.
Underground.  Deep.  When we go towards the light we leave soul and
find spirit... enlightenment.

Psyber-L seems like a dark sort of place to me. How often doe we get
light here?

I have not managed to follow the links to your articles yet Art, and
my musings here are not directly on race, though i hope pertinent to
that discussion. I'd welcome pointers to items that cover the terrain
I am walking here.


Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:10:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Psychodrama Director
In-Reply-To:  <36ad447d.11118927@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I've done it!  I am a Psychodrama Director.  I just got a
telephone message from Don Reekie my thesis supervisor in Perth that
Dr. Robert Crawford the acting director of the local psychodrama
institute, "psychodramatically" (as me) accepted my certificate at the
ANZPA conference. Robert will take it back to Christchurch for me.

I am pleased.

My thesis btw is at:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gp_prot.htm


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:31:29 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 1/24/99 8:51:34 AM Mountain Standard Time, mossy7@JUNO.COM
writes:

<< N:  Ummm...  I donno.  Would a 'new soul' be quite the equal of an
 'old soul?'  I've always thought that the equality had to come in
 what it evoked... i.e. all souls are equally entitled to consideration...
 Something like that. >>

I can't quite accept a *new soul/old soul* concept, Nancy... although I know
several people who do.  They always seem to perceive themselves as *old
souls*?  I have never heard anyone tell me *I am a new soul* :)  How could a
person measure or guess the age of a soul?

If they could be measured in terms of life circumstances, though, it seems to
me that the oldest souls would be those people whose lives most of us think of
as intolerable.  I'm thinking of a woman I counseled several years ago who was
borderline and obsessive/compulsive.  In other words, an extremely unpleasant
woman who was also a pack rat.  Not to get into specifics, but whole
communities tried to get rid of her.  Everytime I met with her, I felt as if I
were dropping into a black hole.  Surely, if there is such a thing as an old
soul, she was one... otherwise what soul would accept such an unhappy life
journey as a person almost universally disliked and repelling everyone she
met?

I think, though, that this dialogue borders on spirituality, religion, and the
divine.  In that realm,  I acknowledge being a novice :)

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:31:44 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 1/25/99 2:09:44 AM Mountain Standard Time, miles@MAIL.COM
writes:

<< like the sea.

 the sea which is neither
 blue nor green
 for that which it truly is
 can never be seen. >>

Miles, wonderful image!  It very much captures my conception of the soul,
thank you.

And, like the sea, never lost, never destroyed.  Still and silent sometimes,
restless other times, but always there.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:36:50 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl Garner wrote:

> In a message dated 1/25/99 2:09:44 AM Mountain Standard Time, miles@MAIL.COM
> writes:
>
> << like the sea.
>
>  the sea which is neither
>  blue nor green
>  for that which it truly is
>  can never be seen. >>
>
> Miles, wonderful image!  It very much captures my conception of the soul,
> thank you.
>
> And, like the sea, never lost, never destroyed.  Still and silent sometimes,
> restless other times, but always there.
>
> Sheryl
>
> N: Me too, Miles.  I can't put it better than that.

            Nancy

> _____

> _______________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:46:11 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl Garner wrote:

> In a message dated 1/24/99 8:51:34 AM Mountain Standard Time, mossy7@JUNO.COM
> writes:
>
> << N:  Ummm...  I donno.  Would a 'new soul' be quite the equal of an
>  'old soul?'  I've always thought that the equality had to come in
>  what it evoked... i.e. all souls are equally entitled to consideration...
>  Something like that. >>
>
> I can't quite accept a *new soul/old soul* concept, Nancy... although I know
> several people who do.  They always seem to perceive themselves as *old
> souls*?  I have never heard anyone tell me *I am a new soul* :)  How could a
> person measure or guess the age of a soul?

N: Yes.  I've had the same experience with a few seemingly 'inflated New Agers'.
But...

>
>
> If they could be measured in terms of life circumstances, though, it seems to
> me that the oldest souls would be those people whose lives most of us think of
> as intolerable.  I'm thinking of a woman I counseled several years ago who was
> borderline and obsessive/compulsive.  In other words, an extremely unpleasant
> woman who was also a pack rat.  Not to get into specifics, but whole
> communities tried to get rid of her.  Everytime I met with her, I felt as if I
> were dropping into a black hole.  Surely, if there is such a thing as an old
> soul, she was one... otherwise what soul would accept such an unhappy life
> journey as a person almost universally disliked and repelling everyone she
> met?
>
> I think, though, that this dialogue borders on spirituality, religion, and the
> divine.  In that realm,  I acknowledge being a novice :)
>
> Sheryl
>

N: Sorry.  I flat-out can't follow you train of associations here.  Care to put up
some guideposts?

    For me the 'idea' of an 'old soul' represent an person in whom I think I
decern certain
characteristics: great acceptance, not judgemental, responsive rather than
reactive, interested rather than invasive.  I have no idea if these people have
lived more than one
life, or simply made the most of the one they were given (one was only 18 when I
met her).
      Your line of thinking is so new to me, I can't imagine why you would
associate such
negative characteristic with a term that implies 'wisdom' to most people, I would
have
supposed...

>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:17:04 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psychodrama Director
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

We shall expect great things of you here now, Walter, with that off your
mind.
  Congratulations!

  Nancy

Walter Logeman wrote:

> I've done it!  I am a Psychodrama Director.  I just got a
> telephone message from Don Reekie my thesis supervisor in Perth that
> Dr. Robert Crawford the acting director of the local psychodrama
> institute, "psychodramatically" (as me) accepted my certificate at the
> ANZPA conference. Robert will take it back to Christchurch for me.
>
> I am pleased.
>
> My thesis btw is at:
>
> http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gp_prot.htm
>
> Walter
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:24:37 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psychodrama Director
In-Reply-To:  <36b36ad6.20937893@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter:

   CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!

    The process in the U.S. is much different from what your's is, but
nevertheless it's a difficult path, and I know you've worked hard to attain
your Directorship as I did here. I'll definitely take the time to read your
thesis.

   Best of everything, and again congratulations!!!!!!

  Janell


At 01:10 PM 1/25/99 GMT, you wrote:
>I've done it!  I am a Psychodrama Director.  I just got a
>telephone message from Don Reekie my thesis supervisor in Perth that
>Dr. Robert Crawford the acting director of the local psychodrama
>institute, "psychodramatically" (as me) accepted my certificate at the
>ANZPA conference. Robert will take it back to Christchurch for me.
>
>I am pleased.
>Walter

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:17:37 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 99-01-25 14:59:17 EST, you write:

<< N: Sorry.  I flat-out can't follow you train of associations here.  Care to
put up
 some guideposts? >>

I'll try :)

<<     For me the 'idea' of an 'old soul' represent an person in whom I think
I
 decern certain
 characteristics: great acceptance, not judgemental, responsive rather than
 reactive, interested rather than invasive.  I have no idea if these people
have
 lived more than one
 life, or simply made the most of the one they were given (one was only 18
when I
 met her). >>

I'm not sure I would necessarily view these people as *old souls*, although I
certainly admire and respect those characteristics in people.  But,
where/when/how do these characteristics emerge in a person?  To me, this is
more in the realm of psychology and sociology, humanness, than soul.

And, these qualities would, I think, provide a person with an ability to flow
through life rather than to confront difficult people/issues.  Similar to
someone born into a wealthy family... where's the challenge to move beyond the
zone of safety and comfort?

 <<      Your line of thinking is so new to me, I can't imagine why you would
 associate such
 negative characteristic with a term that implies 'wisdom' to most people, I
would
 have
 supposed...
  >>

To me, *old soul* would not necessarily equate with wisdom.  IMO, wisdom is
human oriented, and is about learning, growing, understanding, etc.  Seems to
me these come from whatever challenges we face as individuals, whether gender,
color of skin, poor parenting, life circumstances, etc... as well as our own
stubbornness, arrogance, etc.

To compare soul/life to school, it wouldn't make sense to me to put a child of
kindergarten age in a PhD program.

So, my take on it is very human :)  But, within it lies a certain comfort in
believing that the most difficult tests we pass are ones that help to
determine whether we graduate.

Help any?

Sheryl

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:30:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Grard Francillon
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Grard Francillon

Welcome to Psyber-L.  I hope you will find this a useful forum, and that you
will share more about your life and cyber ventures.

Below is your post to me, quoted here in the list so people can welcome you
if they wish and so we all get to know who is here.

Walter


~~~


On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:32:20 +0100, Grard Francillon
<gfrancil@CLUB-INTERNET.FR> wrote:

Walter,

Thank you for this automated msg.
I hope you (as a human) will read it and reply with some
k.o. OK!

My name is Grard Francillon and my address: 'Les  maisons
de la jetee', #3,
F-11370 PORT-LEUCATE

I am retired here in a nudist village, alone and happy to
have Internet friends and relations all over the world.

My aim, when I looked up for the name C.-G. Jung, was to
find the proper word used by Jung for the concept of
convergence, correspondence,... I forgot the exact word. I
hoped to find it in his book titles.

I am having some extraordinary experience in my new life
here. I think reading Jung again would help. More details on
request.

I also tried to find a book by Lisbeth von Benedek, in
English, available in the US: the original French title is
"Le premier entretien".

I mean to have it sent to a cyber-pen-friend who lives far
away in Georgia.

As soon as I am allowed to join, no doubt I'll find this
information.

Sincerely,

Thanks,

Grard
_______________________

"L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)" wrote:
>
> Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:44:25
>
> == Psyber-L ==
>
> == Psyche in Cyberspace ==
>
> *Thank you* for your request to join Psyber-L.


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:16:09 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Francillon
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

  Welcome Gerard.  Have you checked Amazon..com for the books you seek?  Their
key word search should turn up something.
  I expect most of us are curious about you place of retirment.  I know I am.
  Greeting from Nancy

Walter Logeman wrote:

> Grard Francillon
>
> Welcome to Psyber-L.  I hope you will find this a useful forum, and that you
> will share more about your life and cyber ventures.
>
> Below is your post to me, quoted here in the list so people can welcome you
> if they wish and so we all get to know who is here.
>
> Walter
>
> ~~~
>
> On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:32:20 +0100, Grard Francillon
> <gfrancil@CLUB-INTERNET.FR> wrote:
>
> Walter,
>
> Thank you for this automated msg.
> I hope you (as a human) will read it and reply with some
> k.o. OK!
>
> My name is Grard Francillon and my address: 'Les  maisons
> de la jetee', #3,
> F-11370 PORT-LEUCATE
>
> I am retired here in a nudist village, alone and happy to
> have Internet friends and relations all over the world.
>
> My aim, when I looked up for the name C.-G. Jung, was to
> find the proper word used by Jung for the concept of
> convergence, correspondence,... I forgot the exact word. I
> hoped to find it in his book titles.
>
> I am having some extraordinary experience in my new life
> here. I think reading Jung again would help. More details on
> request.
>
> I also tried to find a book by Lisbeth von Benedek, in
> English, available in the US: the original French title is
> "Le premier entretien".
>
> I mean to have it sent to a cyber-pen-friend who lives far
> away in Georgia.
>
> As soon as I am allowed to join, no doubt I'll find this
> information.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Thanks,
>
> Grard
> _______________________
>
> "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)" wrote:
> >
> > Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:44:25
> >
> > == Psyber-L ==
> >
> > == Psyche in Cyberspace ==
> >
> > *Thank you* for your request to join Psyber-L.
>
> _____________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman
> Counsellor & Psychotherapist
> Harley Chambers
> PO Box 13 543
> Christchurch NZ
> Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
> walter@psybernet.co.nz
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:53:44 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sheryl Garner wrote:

> In a message dated 99-01-25 14:59:17 EST, you write:
>
> <<     For me the 'idea' of an 'old soul' represent an person in whom I think
> I
>  decern certain
>  characteristics: great acceptance, not judgemental, responsive rather than
>  reactive, interested rather than invasive.  I have no idea if these people
> have lived more than one
>  life, or simply made the most of the one they were given (one was only 18
> when I met her). >>
>
> I'm not sure I would necessarily view these people as *old souls*, although I
> certainly admire and respect those characteristics in people.

N: Being around such people makes me 'feel' I am "near an old could'. Take the 18
year
old.  She seemed so different from most 18 year olds, it felt 'plausible' to
suppose she
had had many more years and experiences than could be packed into l8.

> But,
> where/when/how do these characteristics emerge in a person?  To me, this is
> more in the realm of psychology and sociology, humanness, than soul.

N: I'll certainly grant that for me at least, it's hard to separate out
characteristic which
are simply 'soul'.  Don't know that many psychologists ( let alone sociologists)
take
much interest in soul, except Jung.

> And, these qualities would, I think, provide a person with an ability to flow
> through life rather than to confront difficult people/issues.

N:  Hmmm...  I don't know about that.  I would think that the very extent of their
development might draw them into difficult situations.  Judith has written about
this in
regard to individuation, that is the farther one get, the less room their is for
error.

>  Similar to
> someone born into a wealthy family... where's the challenge to move beyond the
> zone of safety and comfort?

N: Well, think about the Kennedys

>  <<      Your line of thinking is so new to me, I can't imagine why you would
>  associate such
>  negative characteristic with a term that implies 'wisdom' to most people, I
> would
>  have
>  supposed...
>   >>
>
> To me, *old soul* would not necessarily equate with wisdom.  IMO, wisdom is
> human oriented, and is about learning, growing, understanding, etc.  Seems to
> me these come from whatever challenges we face as individuals, whether gender,
> color of skin, poor parenting, life circumstances, etc... as well as our own
> stubbornness, arrogance, etc.
>
> To compare soul/life to school, it wouldn't make sense to me to put a child of
> kindergarten age in a PhD program.

N: I think most 'true believers' in reincarnation, believe that each soul
participate in the
selection of the next life it is to live.  If I'm understanding you correctly, you
are saying
that it would take a well developed soul with lots of experience to 'chose' the
live of
a person diagnosed as borderline o/c.  In turn this would (to me) imply that there
was
little such a 'soul' could do to avert this diagnostic outcome.

>
> So, my take on it is very human :)  But, within it lies a certain comfort in
> believing that the most difficult tests we pass are ones that help to
> determine whether we graduate.

N:  Goodness.  If you're right, I wish I'd heard about this a lot sooner!

> Help any [one]?
>
> Sheryl
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:05:12 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
In-Reply-To:  <36ACF433.2853ABE3@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

all,

It has never occured to be that the soul is a thing, or that it might have
a color. Of course I'm supposing only things are actually colored.  And
sensation is my most inferior function. Still, when I look inside, my
experience of soul may be associated with colors, and this would then
include the colors of the inner landscape's environment, my dreams, and,
also, the sympathies I have for different colors. Anyway, that's my take.

(I note) that there are a number of color sciences, with our modern color
therapy one example, and the older color suppositions of the esoteric and
yogic aspects of many religions, is another. Color also figures into
mythological images and imagination. The black hat or white hat is,
obviously, partly a mythological concept. The Green Man is a central
personification in Jung's 'story' about his own individuation. Other
longstanding accreations of color with event are mythologically imbued by
definition...the golden ages as well as one's own golden years. So, color
figures into amplification of soul.

Personally, when I paint, most usually the little dabs of blue and yellow
acrylic get smeared on the pallette, and soon I'm seeing green, greens,
maybe even greenness. This seems to always be the first step. On the other
hand, my involvement with music carries no color moment.

***

One question would be: has anyone had an experience of import for their
psyche for which color was a key aspect?

Can color be something you *do*?

***

best to all,

Stephen


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Sell your cleverness
and buy bewilderment.
Cleverness is mere
opinion. Bewilderment
brings intuitive
knowledge. -Rumi, ra
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:19:28 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      old souls
In-Reply-To:  <36AF52A8.82A00538@negia.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

all,

"You must be have an old soul!"

Nobody's tagged moi with that characterization yet. It seems to be split
between three uses, (in my exp.), one, is when [old soul] is used to
characterize a young person and is a complement about their nature, 'wise
beyond their years'.

Two, I've encountered it as a synchronistic moment, delivered by a friend
or stranger, during which a 'message' spoken 'through them' resonated with
my hidden essential imperative. Here the effect was of something speaking
through the messenger.

Three, I associate old soul with the senex and the crone. On a weekly basis
I have this experience, should I encounter the great Jungian and practical
esotericist Alice O. Howell's contributions to Jung-Circle. She embodies
her oldness soulfully, so-fully, and, what must be mentioned, is absolutely
unashamed about the achievement.

This is no small point because old souls are fine, but the idea of old
bodies is terrifying for many, myself included.

***

puerfully yours,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:30:43 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: old souls
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen Calhoun wrote:

> all,
>
> "You must be/have an old soul!"
>
> Nobody's tagged moi with that characterization yet. It seems to be split
> between three uses, (in my exp.), one, is when [old soul] is used to
> characterize a young person and is a complement about their nature, 'wise
> beyond their years'.

>
> N:  That's how I take it.

>
> Two, I've encountered it as a synchronistic moment, delivered by a friend
> or stranger, during which a 'message' spoken 'through them' resonated with
> my hidden essential imperative. Here the effect was of something speaking
> through the messenger.

N: That sounds interesting.  Care to give an example?  Is it the same thing as
synchronicity?  Or an 'add on'?
  (Maybe it's like 'an idea whose time has come.)?

> Three, I associate old soul with the senex and the crone. On a weekly basis
> I have this experience, should I encounter the great Jungian and practical
> esotericist Alice O. Howell's contributions to Jung-Circle. She embodies
> her oldness soulfully, so-fully, and, what must be mentioned, is absolutely
> unashamed about the achievement.

N: I only know her as an astrologist, but am glad to hear that 'someone out
there is
blazing the trail.'


> This is no small point because old souls are fine, but the idea of old
> bodies is terrifying for many, myself included.

N: Well, luckily, most of us don't experience it like a bolt of lightning.  It
sort of creeps
up on you: a wrinkle here, a gray hair there,  a trip to the beech where you
don't attract
the gaze of as many bikinied beauties as last summer....
   There now.  Doesn't that make you feel better?

> ***
>
> puerfully yours,
>
> Stephen

N: No need to dispair.  Joseph Wheelwright hung on to his puer and ever let it
speak
out for him at meetings, well into his 80's.

Nancy
Feeling pretty amused.

>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:33:58 +0100
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Francillon <gfrancil@CLUB-INTERNET.FR>
Subject:      Re: Welcome =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Francillon
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OK, here I am. Well, just next door!

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/oasis-village/

Nancy Smith wrote:
>
>   Welcome Gerard.  Have you checked Amazon..com for the books you seek?
        Sorry this is just to acknowledge. I'll try and send a
proper answer later.

Grard

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Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:43:03 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Wayne Richardson
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Welcome Wayne Richardson

Wayne, you have been added and this is your first post from
the list to you.  You will see from our archives:

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

that we have plenty of interaction, human?  community?  I
think so.  At times we might even go beyond that <grin>.

Walter

Here is your intro:


> hello there=) i am a musician/writer/inventor.  i am interested in finding
> ways to prove that the web will not vanquish human interaction and
> community.



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:12:35 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: old souls
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all,

My own experience is getting messages this way is a synchronicity, (i.e.
the phenomenom through which one is connected to their own essential
imperative (or individuation), through the contact with some outside event
which has no causal explanation with respect to its showing and connecting
up!).

I'd like to backtrack a bit. My own experience of a person's old soul is a
quality of the experience. (I have no idea whether someone is literally an
old soul or not, and am not personally concerned that it be so or not.) I
would say that one may be sensitive to this quality, and, with this
sensitivity comes more synchronistic experiences of other persons.

The delusion that one is sensitive can lead to rather too much 'reading
into a situation' so this is qualified by knowing what the difference is
between -sensitivity and openness- and mere unconscious projection of
hidden meanings into, onto everything. In other words, synchronicity is
mysterious, whereas its being explained (caused!) by magical thinking is
not. :-)  This is a paradox, too, for the unleashing of archetypal energies
in the midst of inflation may also amp synchronistic encounters. Still,
synchronicity is neither willed into the situation or bidded to enter...it
just arrives, suddenly and often with a shock.

***

In the case in which a person delivers the "right" message, I may look upon
it as a synchronicity or may not. if the quality of old soul is part of my
feeling of the situation, I may look on it as a synchronicity or may feel
it is, more rationally, my own magical view. Hmmm. But, when the person and
message come from out of nowhere and deliver an undeniable message that
amps my own 'tension of the opposites', ie. the real work of individuation
I'm facing (or not!) then I'm not surprised to sense either synchronicity
or 'old soulness'.

The best example occurred about ten years ago. A teacher had made a simple
task for me: "to identify with other persons in all my encounters" and,
simple and hard task as it was, he made it harder by underlining that it
was the most abject, aggravating, ugly, different, and alienating persons
with which I should especially attend to in doing the task. Well, I tried
to do this. It was hard, as shadow work usually is.

I sat at my desk one afternoon, all alone in my glass cubicle, a cubicle
within a glass office section outside of a office furniture showroom, and
was reviewing my attempts at identifying with others. (And, not feeling too
keen at it.) I caught a movement at the showroom door and saw a beraggled
man, (thought immediatly that he was some street person who had wandered
into the building), opening the door. I got up, confidant he wasn't a
customer, and walked out into the showroom. Immediatly, I smelled an
overwhelming aroma of urine. I slowly approached him; he was standing
insiode the door looking around. He was dressed in rags upon rags. yet, I
drew closer and was stunned, for he just had this simply breathtaking look
in his eyes. You might think I mean he was a madman, but his eyes were
familiar to me, deep and solid and true. (Here's where I began to feel *old
soul*.) In fact, he was a very beautiful man, although of indeterminate age.

We stood for a moment, both of us with quizical looks. Then he asked me in
broken English with a strong spanish-like accent, "Are you the person I'm
looking for?"

I told him, (and I was feeling galvanised by something very mysterious,
strange, inside), "No?" and just unconsciously poured myself into his gaze.
He said, "Gracias." and turned and as he made his way out the door, turned
to me and told me, "I think so."

This was a very confusing encounter for me, although it took not more than
a minute or two. But, when I returned to my desk I was holding two
conflicting ideas, one, that this man was decrepit and stunk, and, two,
that this man was beautiful, and had some hidden huge charm. He also struck
me as being some age between my own, and, God knows! I also had the
impression he was an Indian, perhaps a Mexican or Peruvian. And, then, it
hit me and hit me hard, what this had to do with my task. I was
thunderstruck. Most definitely, I felt the quality of old soul, especially
in his eyes. I considered too whether I was reading too much into the
situation; it's timing, in retrospect, was, however, perfect.

(Incidentally, I saw him once more, passed him on the street several days
later. He tracked me, perhaps he saw me first, and we just locked our
senses as I walked by him. I felt a bit scared, and then a bit *reminded*.)

***

any experiences of this old soul mode you'd like to share, Nancy?


bright moments to all,

Stephen


ps-

>N: No need to dispair.  Joseph Wheelwright hung on to his puer and ever let it

Oh, no despair; I'm somewhat proudly a puer, blessing and curse as it may
be, it's an integral aspect of me, part of my treasure.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:40:38 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Wayne Richardson <nori@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: old souls
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>My own experience is getting messages this way is a synchronicity,
thought creates a vacuum that the universe falls into. the more power u
generate the more rapidly the coincidence of it occurs. sometimes thoughts
have to be handed down through generations before they manifest. it is a
very tricky thing tho because if your thought disallows coincidence then
*that* will *be* the coincidence.

> (I have no idea whether someone is literally an
>old soul or not, and am not personally concerned that it be so or not.)
[ I know what you are alluding too by old soul itink, and it brings me too
these thoughts]
if the soul has infinite properties then everysoul is part of the allsoul
which is infinitely old. if the key to knowing your soul is to become one
with god then when you do so you will see your life in all. there is no
other person or lifetime. you are charles manson and bill clinton as well as
jesus and mohammed. all souls are as ancient as the universe.

certain "spirits of action" could be said to be young or old however.
ignorance could be said to be 'of youth'.[tho ignorance ignores age in many
cases=)]

>would say that one may be sensitive to this quality, and, with this
>sensitivity comes more synchronistic experiences of other persons.


everyones life in every aspect is one big synchronicity stemming from your
parents big high school dance on a magical moonlit night with the band
singing of love, so to speak. when you reach a certain level of power, the
conciousness starts recognizing the coincidences. that psychic level does
not require purity however, and does not mean that you are in harmony with
the universe just because you see the coincidences all seem to be lining up.
if you are imbalanced then the coinkies will manifest as your foot slipping
off the tightwire. if you dont believe in coincidence then that will *be*
the coincidence.[not seeing them]. also dont forget that everyone else is
bleeding thier coincident into the world, so thoughts require huge amounts
of power b4 a crystal clear coinky occurs.

>The delusion that one is sensitive can lead to rather too much 'reading
>into a situation'
yes, here again i am reminded that the level of awareness required to notice
coinkies does not come through disciplined, refined, or sane thought.  just
realize that it is all like feedback, and we cant  read the full scope of
what is occurring during coincident since it involves a multitude of
externals.

>so this is qualified by knowing what the difference is
>between -sensitivity and openness- and mere unconscious >projection of
hidden meanings into, onto everything. In other words, >synchronicity is
mysterious, whereas its being explained (caused!) >by magical thinking is
not. :-)
psychics dont have to be "spiritually" adept and since they havent trained
to stop thier mind they wind up bleeding all over reality.  most everyone is
doing it usually;) the secret is to turn off your mind then see which way
the universe is pushing your awareness. this will be the sum of existance
for your locale as it is created by the "others" in motion.

> This is a paradox, too, for the unleashing of archetypal energies
>in the midst of inflation may also amp synchronistic encounters.
;)
 >Still, synchronicity is neither willed into the situation or bidded to
>enter...it just arrives, suddenly and often with a
shock.]]quite-like-lightning!![[

    the universe for the most part,  *is* a bumbling unwilled oaf of mixed
intentions indeed.  all prayer/spells/thought manifestations are willed
occurances that require the pulling of the wool over your own eyes
temporarily.  evryone who thinks the sun will rise tomorro and plans
accordingly is pulling the wool over thier eyes since it is still up in the
air.
just some babblins', c u l8r

>bright moments to all,

may the force be with u

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:14:07 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: old souls
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Stephen Calhoun wrote:

> all,
>
> My own experience is getting messages this way

N: What way?  To what does 'this' refer?

> is a synchronicity, (i.e.
> the phenomenom through which one is connected to their own essential
> imperative (or individuation), through the contact with some outside event
> which has no causal explanation with respect to its showing and connecting
> up!).
> (snip)

> ...any experiences of this old soul mode you'd like to share, Nancy?

N; UUUuuuu... Donno.  I was certainly impressed with yours!  Only somehow it seems
uh... unfinished...  Like something more is to be understood...  or happen
concerning it....
     In my (limited) experience, there has been no connection between experiences
of
synchronicity and 'old soulness'.
    My strongest experience of synchronicity came with 'falling in love' about 5
years ago.
This went beyond the 'love song' stuff of meeting accidentally in unexpected places
to
attending a conference in Italy and meeting a man with the same last name and
psychology
PhD.  The last name was so unusual that it was listed only 4 times in the Manhattan
phone
directory and several were relatives.  If one wants get hyper rational about this
experience
I guess one might cite 'heightened awareness', but it still wouldn't cover it all.
    'Old soul' experiences seem to have more to do with the development of
qualities that
so few seem to manage in one lifetime: acceptance, deep spirituality and
understanding.
    Your experience is a little reminiscent of Cheryl's.  One wonders how a highly
developed soul wouldn't have found some way to have not 'stunk'.
    Like you, I don't know that I exactly 'believe' in reincarnation, though it
seems to me
to offer more interesting ramifications than most theological outcomes.

> bright moments to all,
>
> Stephen

Nancy
Wondering...and hoping everyone appreciates the 'discipline' it took for me to
'snip' so
much of Stephen's wonderful post.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:33:08 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
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Nancy, all...

In a message dated 99-01-27 09:57:17 EST, you write:

<< N: I'll certainly grant that for me at least, it's hard to separate out
 characteristic which
 are simply 'soul'.  Don't know that many psychologists ( let alone
sociologists)
 take
 much interest in soul, except Jung.>>

My perception of at least some of the psychological theorists (you have a
point about sociologists, about them I'm less familiar!) was that some
remained *in the closet* about their spiritual or soulful thoughts in their
writings.  Maslow, Erikson, and Rogers, for example.  Contemporary
transpersonal theorists definitely include soulful aspects in their
theories... Wilbur, Engler, Nelson, Gerald May and others.  May is not exactly
transpersonal, but addresses the soul with dignity.

<< N: I think most 'true believers' in reincarnation, believe that each soul
 participate in the
 selection of the next life it is to live.  If I'm understanding you
correctly, you
 are saying
 that it would take a well developed soul with lots of experience to 'chose'
the
 live of
 a person diagnosed as borderline o/c.  In turn this would (to me) imply that
there
 was
 little such a 'soul' could do to avert this diagnostic outcome. >>

To me, reincarnation is another *could be*.  I have no memories of previous
lives, but I've met other people who absolutely believe they remember them.
To me it's a part of the great unknown, but I like to hear other people's
thoughts.

The bottom line for me, Nancy, is that how I view the situation with folks
like the woman I wrote about helps me to view her with compassion.  She is
locked into a terrible life, and there is little chance that it will change.

Stephen's description of his meeting with the street person was similar to my
last meeting with the ocd borderline woman.  I had been visiting her weekly
(skipping weeks whenever I possibly could) at her awful apartment for about 2
months when my supervisor said it was an appropriate time to end my
relationship with her.  After we went through goals we had worked on, I wished
her well, and stood up to leave.  I reached over to shake her hand, thinking
(arrogantly) I would try to pass on some warmth and concern to her... but when
I looked into her eyes, I felt some deep recognition that I can't describe.
As if she recognized that I recognized her dilemna, and then a flash of wisdom
I felt in her that I couldn't even come close to.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:33:10 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <CMCPsych@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
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In a message dated 99-01-27 09:57:17 EST, you write:

<< > So, my take on it is very human :)  But, within it lies a certain comfort
in
 > believing that the most difficult tests we pass are ones that help to
 > determine whether we graduate.

 N:  Goodness.  If you're right, I wish I'd heard about this a lot sooner! >>

I know, I agree!  But ultimately my perception is just my own human thoughts
and theories attempting to analyze and understand something far greater than
me.

 > Help any [one]? >>

Nancy, the last sentence of your quote of me disturbs me somewhat.  I did not
include the [one] in my original post, so either you added it or some daemon
of cyberspace did.  If you did, what were you meaning to communicate and to
whom by adding to my words?

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:29:48 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <nsmith@NEGIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: colors of souls
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>
>
> Nancy, the last sentence of your quote of me disturbs me somewhat.  I did not
> include the [one] in my original post, so either you added it or some daemon
> of cyberspace did.  If you did, what were you meaning to communicate and to
> whom by adding to my words?
>
> Sheryl
>

N:  I'm having to guess as I made that addition before I started using the mailbox
mode.
I think you made some comment about Judith and I carrying on a two only
conversation.
I got to wondering if others on the list every got to feeling this way.  The
addition was
my way of inviting others into the reincarnation speculations.
   No disturbance intended.

   Nancy

> ____________________________________________________________
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Date:         Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:23:35 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      The Color/Age of Souls
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Hi Psyber Folk,

I've been away from the list for a week or so moving into the new house.
Finally got the computer hooked up today and have read about the "souls"
discussions. Not that I know what a soul is...but the idea of "old soul"
is one I'm very comfortable with - sort of like someone else here said -
someone who is "older" than their years, seems unusually comfortable in
his/her "skin bag" , seems to have a "natural" kind of wisdom. Certain
children are calm and alert from the beginning while others seems to be
horrified to be in this world, as in "yikes, where am I and how did I get
here?"  As to "color" - can't say I even have enough of an "idea" of what
a "soul" is to be able to think in terms of color - no colors here for
souls.

Congratulations Walter on the Directorship. I can't say I understand the
significance but I do know that it's a good thing to have accomplished
something that one has worked hard and long for. So hats off to you and
I'll raise a toast next time I have a beer!

Btw - being in the new house is great. I have a gas firplace which is
wired to a thermostat and it's quite a treat to have the fire simply come
on whenever the temp dips down. Also my early morning coffee is now done
in front of the fire witrh only the flames lighting the room. Also a new
bed - wow - such comfort. Lots of snow here last week - the biggest
snowfall of the season right before the move was scheduled - but it all
turned out well. Anyway, I'm a happy (warm) bug in a rug as they say.

Cheers to all,

cheryl

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